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Around SBN: Win or Lose, Boston Celtics' New Big 3 Era A Success

The Ghosts of Cardinal Drafts Past

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Friends, I have a confession to make. I literally cannot think of a single thing to write about this team at the moment. Can't really muster the anger necessary for a rant about Kyle Lohse or either of the middle infielders. Can't think of anything nice to say about last night's game other than to compliment Clayton Kershaw on being really good at throwing a ball. Hell, I can't even muster the energy to write up the Matt Holliday/Chaos Theory Butterfly Effect fanfiction I was bouncing around in my head. No, this team has pretty much beaten me into submission this morning.

So what I'm going to do is write about the draft. No, I'm not getting a head start on my draft previews for 2012. (Not yet, anyway; just wait 'til mid-September and the team loses by eleven.) Rather, with the signing deadline having just recently passed (the Cards failed to sign a couple players I really liked, by the way, which was mildly frustrating), the draft has been on my mind. Specifically, past drafts and draftees, and how I would have done things differently, and that sort of thing. Plus, talking about the draft always cheers me up, and as I'm sure most of our longtime readers will recognise from the ferris wheel atop this post, ol' Aaron needs a bit of cheering up today.

But first, I have a quick bit of something that's been on my mind regarding Tyler Greene. There's been a bunch of talk lately here and over at Future Redbirds as well about the team really needing to look at Tyler in a serious way, to try and decide whether he's worth retaining or not. It's a somewhat pressing matter, since Greene is out of options.

There are two schools of thought on Tyler, one of which is play him and see, because he's never gotten an extended look. The other is that he's done absolutely nothing to grab hold of the job when he has been given a chance and he's just crap. It's that second point I would like to address, and see if I can't shed some light on what I think is a very widely held belief based on some incorrect facts.

I wrote a piece awhile back for the RFT focusing on Greene and his lack of playing time. A man named Fred apparently did not care for it. (Side note: if anyone would like to leave negative feedback on anything I write, that's perfectly fine. But please, at least specify why you think I'm a complete tool. "You're an idiot, and this is why:_____________!" gives plenty of room for debate. Just saying, "You suck!" in the comments doesn't really offer much opportunity for rebuttal. Thank you.) Anyway, in the course of looking for periods of concentrated playing time for Tyler, the three most consistent stretches I could find came in May of this season, July of 2010, and May of 2009.

This May, Tyler saw 59 plate appearances over 24 games. He posted a not-so-great .642 OPS.

In July of last year he received 45 plate appearances over 14 games. He posted an .828 OPS, which is rather nice compared to the rest of the detritus we've been watching play the position.

In May of 2009, he played in 12 games, went to the plate 36 times, and hit to the tune of an .860 OPS.

Those are the three most concentrated periods of playing time I could find for Tyler. You can go look for yourself if you like; I just did a fairly quick rundown of the game logs on B-Ref, and it's possible I missed a run of solid playing time. But two of the three times Tyler received something even resembling regular playing time he put up offensive numbers considerably better than what would be considered acceptable at the position.

Don't get me wrong; we can argue all day about Tyler Greene's positives and negatives. But the whole argument that he's done nothing but fail every time he's been given playing time doesn't really hold water when you really look at his track record.

Anyhow, enough of that.

Star-divide

So as I was saying before that rather sizable digression into TylerWorld, Cardinal drafts of the near past have been on my mind lately. It's helpful from time to time to look back, see where we are, and how we got here. With that in mind, I wanted to go back and look at the past five years (not counting 2011), the top picks from each year, what direction I would have preferred the club to go, and whether or not the Cards got sufficient bang for their buck. Without further ado, let us embark on our journey into the past, all the way back to the summer of 2006, to a time when the sound of T-Pain's painful story of a forbidden love for an exotic dancer could be heard far and wide throughout the land and Pete Wentz hadn't yet worn out his bass-licking welcome.

2006

Who They Picked -- Adam Ottavino 

Ottavino was a curious representative of that curious demographic the Cardinals have plumbed time and again through the years, that of the raw college pitcher. With stuff that never quite translated into high quality results, Ottavino was very much a bet on the development guys being able to refine his stuff. This was also the last draft for the Cardinals drafting at the very tail end of the first round, so the value they could have come up with here was somewhat mitigated by the lateness of the pick. Five years later, Ottavino has proven nearly as frustrating as the previous raw college pitcher the Cards took out of a school from the Northeast, Chris Lambert. (Considered using the ghost, but decided against it.) Between injuries and plain old inconsistency, it doesn't look like the Cards are going to ever see a great return on their investment.

Who I Wanted

Actually, it's a little tough for me to say who I would have preferred here. I followed the draft, yes, but not with the level of detail I do nowadays due to writing scouting reports. Daniel Bard was the guy I really wanted going into this draft who I thought would still be there, but the Red Sox popped him two spots ahead of the Cards. My interest in him at the time was mostly predicated on the belief he would remain a starter in pro ball; we've obviously seen that didn't happen, but he's still a very valuable pitcher at the back of the Sawx bullpen currently.

Looking at the list of players drafted immediately after Ottavino,  Chris Tillman's name pops out, along with Brett Anderson. Anderson hurts more than a little, because the Cards passed on him thrice, taking Brad Furnish just ahead of him. Joba Chamberlain also went in the supplemental, and while he looks now like a legendary lost arm just rewind a couple seasons to when he was being compared to Roger Clemens and just think of what you could have traded him for.

Who Did Better

Like I said, I didn't have a strong enough opinion to really decide on this one.

Other Notable Picks

The Cards actually did pretty well for themselves in 2006. Chris Perez (1S), helped bring over Mark DeRosa. (In hindsight a bad deal, but that doesn't diminish the value Perez brought to the table.) The Cards pulled Jon Jay, Allen Craig, and Luke Gregerson out of their hat. Nick Additon continues to baffle hitters and prospect watchers alike. Mark Hamilton is probably nothing more than organisational filler at this point, but he made it to the big leagues, which is nothing to sneeze at. All in all, 2006 was a very solid draft.

2007

Who They Picked -- Pete Kozma 

Let's face it; Pete Kozma has been discussed enough here and everywhere else throughout Cardinaldom that we all know the story by now. Kozma made it to the big leagues this year for a brief time, but remains a real black mark on  Jeff Luhnow's drafting record.

Who I Wanted

Just as well-trod as the ground around Kozma himself is the player many of us thought should have been picked instead, one Rick Porcello. Porcello, you'll remember, was the bonus baby represented by Scott Boras who wanted a big-league contract right out of high school. He made it to the big leagues before his 21st birthday (without adequate time in the minors to develop his secondary stuff, in my ever so humble, but I suppose that's the danger of giving an 18 year old a major league contract), and has since struggled mightily to find consistent success. His strikeout rate has never risen to anything resembling ace levels, and his inability to miss bats has made him largely ineffective.

Aside from Porcello, the guys I really wanted were Tim Alderson or Michael Main, both HS right-handers. Alderson went to the Giants, showed brilliantly to begin his career (he was ranked ahead of Madison Bumgarner to begin 2009, in fact), was traded to the Pirates as part of the Freddy Sanchez deal, and was never heard from again. He's currently in Double A and has never been the same pitcher since his initial taste of pro ball, with stuff that's basically just disappeared. Main injured his shoulder a couple years back and hasn't been good since. He's in the Giants system now.

The 2007 draft was, quite frankly, terrible. Not just for the Cards. For pretty much everybody, at least in the early rounds. There are some good names in the top ten, but overall it was just an horrific year.

Who Did Better

Really, neither the Cardinals nor I would have gotten much of anything good from our selections, though I still believe Porcello could have been a much better pitcher if the Tigers hadn't pushed him through the minors quite so quickly. So call it a wash, with me vainly claiming a hypothetical edge.

The Lesson

Pitchers get hurt. Pitchers are unpredictable, especially high schoolers. Even so, going cheap isn't going to get you anything good either.

Other Notable Picks

It was kind of an ugly year for the Cards in '07, but not completely a waste. They netted Dan Descalso with a third round pick, and Clayton Mortensen in the supplemental, who helped bring in Matt Holliday. Jess Todd and David Kopp have both failed to make an impact so far, with Kopp struggling to stay healthy and Todd doing his second tour of duty with the club. (Todd was also a part of the DeRosa deal.) Deryk Hooker has been disappointing the last two seasons. Andrew Brown made it to the majors. Adam Reifer should be the next reliever to hyperventilate over if his knee is healthy in 2012. Tony Cruz may be the Cards' backup catcher next year, and Adron Chambers looks close to being ready for the big time.

2008

Who They Picked -- Brett Wallace

 A much better pick than those of the previous two years, Wallace came pretty much as advertised into the system as an all-bat, no-real-position hitter with a major college pedigree. He contributed almost immediately as the centerpiece of the Matt Holliday trade and has since moved through two other organisations, ending up at first base for the Astros. Hasn't hit as much as hoped, but it doesn't matter to the Cards any more. Very good value pick.

Who I Wanted

The guy I was most hoping for in '08 was Jake Odorizzi, a high school righty from Highland, Illinois. (Cardinal country, that. For the most part, anyway.) Interestingly, Odorizzi and Wallace have both been traded in their minor league careers for big-time major league talent, with Odorizzi going as part of the Zack Greinke deal from Milwaukee to KC. He is currently pitching in the Texas League at 21 and taking some lumps in the hitter-friendly parks.

My other wish list guy this year was Aaron Hicks, the hyper-athletic outfielder taken by the Twins just a few picks after Wallace. Hicks started off his minor league career with a bang but has since been a bit underwhelming. He has outstanding plate discipline and the athleticism is still there, but he's been very slow to develop power. There's still time, as he's just 21, but Hicks isn't exactly blowing the doors off.

Who Did Better

It's tough to really rate this one, as the Cardinals and my hypothetical drafting department both came up with excellent minor leaguers who became excellent value in the form of trading chips. If you ask me now, I would still love to have either of my guys in the system right now, but you can't argue with flipping Wallace for a star like Holliday the year after he was drafted.

The Lesson

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Sure, either of the players I wanted could have easily done as well or even better in the Cards' system, but the value Wallace presented as a near-finished product was too good to pass up.

Other Notable Picks

We're getting close enough to the present now that it's a little harder to say how well the Cards did in this draft, but it's an intriguing group of players at least. Lance Lynn we all know about and are hoping he's healed and ready to contribute in 2012 in whatever capacity. Shane Peterson went as part of the Holliday deal along with Wallace. Eric Fornataro and Anthony Ferrara are both interesting pitching prospects still kicking around the lower levels of the system, and Scott Gorgen was coming on strong before an injury. Alex Castellanos netted the club Rafael Furcal. Sam Freeman and Kevin Siegrist give the club a pair of intriguing lefties. Overall a pretty good group heavy on arms with some upside.

2009

Who They Picked -- Shelby Miller

We all know about Shelby. He wasn't supposed to be available when the Cards picked, but he was, and they pounced. Paid him significantly overslot to sign, and he's been worth pretty much every penny so far. He should rank in the top ten of pretty much every prospect publication this offseason; the only question is whether he'll take his recent suspension to heart and curb his off the field behaviour. It's easy to forget he's only 20 years old, so there's plenty of reason to believe he can do the necessary growing up.

Who I Wanted

When Shelby was still on the board, he immediately became my guy. Oddly enough, most of my favourite players from this draft were already off the board, as both Jacob Turner and Chad James went before the Cards picked. I also liked Randal Grichuk, who's shown good power for the Angels, and Slade Heathcott, an athletic outfielder who has been slow to develop in the Yankee system. I also really liked James Paxton out of Kentucky. I wish I could tell you I was on Mike Trout, but I would be lying. Thought he had a chance to be good, but certainly didn't see this coming.

Who Did Better 

Tied, since we would have picked the same guy. However, I will claim victory because I write for this blog and Jeff Luhnow does not. So there.

The Lesson

Talent doesn't lie. Shelby had the arm to go top five or ten, and just happened to still be there at 19. Outstanding value and (hopefully), a big part of the Cards' future.

Other Notable Picks

I still believe in Robert Stock, despite many indications to the contrary. Joe Kelly has unreal stuff but has yet to really harness it fully. Ryan Jackson could very well be the Cards' shortstop of the future and looks quite a bit like Brendan Ryan in terms of skillset. Matt Carpenter once drew a walk on a throw to first. Kyle Conley has hit when he's been healthy, and Matt Adams has just hit period. (He's also driven traffic to FR in a big way.) Trevor Rosenthal might be the team's third best pitching prospect, and Keith Butler is putting up incredible numbers closing games out. Hector Hernandez, the lefty out of Puerto Rico, is interesting. This is a very, very intriguing group, with more upside than any of the other draft classes we've discussed here.

2010

Who They Drafted -- Zack Cox

For the second year in a row, the Cardinals found themselves staring at a player who, much like Dante, wasn't supposed to be there, and for the second year in a row they took him. While Cox still wouldn't have been my choice, as I was a little more doubtful about his ceiling than most, I had absolutely no problem with the Cards snatching him up. He was projected going into the draft as perhaps the best overall hitter in the class and a top ten talent, so to nab him at 25 was quite a coup.

To date, Cox has really been almost exactly what you would expect him to be, but the way he's done it has been a little unorthodox. At each level he's gotten off to an horrendous start, then begun to adjust gradually. First, he takes a few walks. Then, he slowly starts collecting some hits, singles mostly. Then, a stray double here and there creeps in as he begins to drive the ball. Finally, the line drives start to elevate a bit and he turns them into home runs.

Cox began the season at High A Palm Beach and, after the aforementioned slow start, got his OPS all the way up to .817 before the Cards promoted him to Springfield. Another slow start ensued, but as of right now his Double A OPS is .816 and he's hit four homers in his last three games. He does have elevated BABIP numbers, but his line drive rate is a robust 23%, so I don't think he's a candidate to suddenly drop off too very badly. The defense has to be a definite concern, and you would like to see a higher walk rate, but at 22 years old and in his first full pro season he's playing in Double A and beginning to thrive. He isn't a wow kind of guy, but he's a pretty damned fine draft pick.

Who I Wanted

My guy last year was Kevin Gausman, a high school right-hander who was drafted in the sixth round and chose to attend LSU rather than sign. He was clocked at 100 mph several times this spring and should be a very, very high pick in 2013.

Christian Yelich was one of my favourite position picks, but he was already off the board when the Cards made their pick, going to the Marlins a couple spots earlier. Yelich was a high school first basemen slash outfield (read: hitter), and I'm not exactly sure why I liked him so much. Just one of those weird gut feeling things, I suppose. He's done well for himself so far in pro ball, with an .845 OPS this season in Low A and has stolen 28 bases. I had no idea he had that sort of speed.

Austin Wilson was probably the guy I wanted most as a position player, and the Cards actually got him. Sadly, we all know how that worked out, as Wilson went to Stanford and had a very blah season playing with that stupid tree as a mascot when he could have been getting actual, useful coaching in the wilds of Tennessee. That's just the bitterness talking, though.

I also liked Bryce Brentz, a college outfielder who profiled as a pure hitter in the same sort of way as Brett Wallace. Brentz went to the Red Sox in the supplemental round  and has shown excellent power so far in his pro career.

 Who Did Better 

The Cardinals clearly did better here, as my favourite pick is in college right now. Brentz has shown tons of power, but Cox has a chance to stick at a harder defensive position long term and has a more developed approach at the plate. Yelich I would say would have been at least as good a pick but there's really no point in even discussing him. So I would have gone for flash and gotten nothing, while the Cards went for the value and performance and ended up with a top 100 prospect. They win this round.

The Lesson

Don't get cute. When a guy drops in your lap who should have been long gone, if you believe you can sign him you take him. At the very least he should offer plenty of value to someone else down the road.

Other Notable Picks

There's a lot to like about the Cards' draft in 2010, beginning with Tyrell Jenkins, a super high-upside pitching prospect. He's in Johnson City right now and just starting to scratch the surface. Even so, he's already shown enough for national prospect types to take notice. Keith Law and John Sickels I know are both huge fans. Jordan Swagerty was drafted as a reliever, but showed enough starting this season before being put back in the bullpen to limit his workload that you have to consider him a real starting prospect.  Cody Stanley has shown a solid bat and the ability to stick behind the plate. John Gast and Tyler Lyons, a pair of lefties, have both shown well for themselves early in their pro careers. Gast is already at Double A in his first full season and is surviving. He's also shown a pickoff move that looks like a magic trick. Tyler Lyons threw a no-hitter. Boone Whiting looks like he just may win the Cards' Pitcher of the Year award for the minors and might prove to be one hell of a steal. Ryan Copeland has put up excellent numbers and could move through the system quickly as a polish lefty.

So what can we glean from all this? Well, first off we can see I would be a terrible scouting director. In five years I would have drafted  five high school pitchers, or maybe four pitchers and one unsignable high school outfielder. Like most amateur prospect watchers, I go for pure upside without considering the risk nearly enough because, hey, it's not my money. Sure, my drafts would always be exciting, but my team would almost surely end up the Oakland Raiders of MLB.

Second, we can hopefully believe the Cardinals have learned from their disastrous 2007 draft and have taken a much healthier profile of upside in subsequent drafts. They also pulled solid value from first-round picks relative to slot three years in a row and used that value from Brett Wallace to go out and acquire a franchise cornerstone.  Where the team used to go overly heavy on predictable college players, they've struck much more of a balance the last couple years and have managed to acquire some real upside in the process.

You know, for not having much of anything to say this morning I think I managed to drone on for quite a while. So let's just cut this off here before it goes on any longer.

The Baron's Playlist for the 24th of August, 2011 (click for 8tracks link)

"Make It Up" - Ganglians

"Candy Girl" - Ganglians

"Don't Get Cute" - Kurt Vile

"Runner Ups" - Kurt Vile

"Arms Like Boulders" - The War on Drugs

"Baby Missile" - The War on Drugs (Sweet jesus I love this song. It sounds like the Arcade Fire covering Electrelane's cover of Bruce Springsteen's "I'm On Fire".)  

"Il Triello" (Full Version) - Ennio Morricone

"Il Mercenario (L'Arena)" - Ennio Morricone

Comment 161 comments  |  4 recs  | 

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Nice Post

I don’t know if Tommy Pham was ’07 or ’06, but I still am following him thinking there could be impact…

by Lawless on Aug 24, 2011 8:51 AM EDT reply actions  

I think Pham was 2006.

And I just missed him. He’s definitely one to watch if he can stay healthy; I should certainly have included him.

Or die trying.

by the red baron on Aug 24, 2011 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Tommy "Bam-Bam" Pham!

:=8D

GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Corey Effin' Patterson!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Aug 24, 2011 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Starting September, we might as well play Greene bu

what was the deal this spring? He made a bunch of errors or something like that? I think there was something that caused VEB to collectively groan and mutter “doghouse”.

by sdrone on Aug 24, 2011 9:03 AM EDT reply actions  

He dropped a popup.

Missed another one, also, but that was sun-aided and I suspect most players miss it. Just one of those things. The other, though, ugh. Just painful.

The one thing I do worry about with Greene is that he seems to have gotten rabbit ears in the majors, in the sense that he looks frightened of screwing up all the time. He doesn’t play confident, and I worry he’ll end up with a case of the yips, something akin to Chuck Knoblach’s throwing problems. Not saying it looks like he has, but he always looks tentative now, where he never did earlier in his career. Even at the MLB level the first few times he was up, we saw some really outstanding defensive plays at times from him. Recently, though, he looks much more afraid of making a mistake, which of course leads to…mistakes.

Or die trying.

by the red baron on Aug 24, 2011 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

But why is he nervous now?

I’d be kind of nervous too if I knew that every play/at bat was make or break for my career at the highest level.

From the blackhole of the Iowa TV market.

by icardinal on Aug 24, 2011 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wonder what VEB would think

of a Greene/Craig MIF next year. Starters. Every day. At least for the beggining of the season. Shedding some money there might help bring Berk and ALbert back. IDK

2011 fWAR watch: Theriot = 0.4, Boog = 2.5 as of Aug 24
Bilingual Twitter

by Paulspike on Aug 24, 2011 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not totally sold...

on Craig at 2B. I think I prefer Descalso there, with Craig as a light side of a platoon…starting in the OF other days?

When do pitchers and catchers report?

by cardzfanbub on Aug 24, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

craig at 2nd does not bode well

for improving our D, which is a necessity

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR

by sportsman on Aug 24, 2011 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think we're more likely to have a Greene/Craig CF next year

Goodnight, Sweet Prince. Colby Rasmus ~ June 7, 2005 ~ July 27, 2011

by YesWeOquendo on Aug 24, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think that's definitely the case.

Obviously you hope guys put in that situation rise to the occasion and excel, but I really think Tyler has gotten to the point where it’s in his head now that every little mistake will cost him an opportunity. I’m not going to argue he couldn’t argue the situation better, because I think he could. But sometimes when a player’s confidence is really shaken it has to fall on the coaching staff to figure out some way of helping him turn it around.

Or die trying.

by the red baron on Aug 24, 2011 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

This seemed to be a lot of his problem his last time up

I agree that he should be installed in the lineup, at either SS or 2B, in September and let’s see what we’ve got. We’ve all been happy to have Furcal’s glove these last few weeks, but his bat still seems to be in the deep freeze, I’m not sure we want to risk counting on him for 2012.

by ArkansasTravs on Aug 24, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

he was snapping at the ball

The big issue with greene was that he wasn’t hitting, or playing defense well. If he had managed to do either or, he could have been or starting shortstop by now. Still, we are out, furcal isn’t coming back next year. Get greene up and get him in the game.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Aug 24, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Even with the impressive numbers

Greene has put up, he has still struck out 64 times in 216 at bats in Memphis. He gets at least one and more often two a night. This is not good and would probably increase in majors….And could he gain any confidence at all playing for La Russa

by ridgesee on Aug 24, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ennio Morricone = Awesome

good playlist RB.

And more importantly, nice post. I really enjoyed reading it.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Aug 24, 2011 9:29 AM EDT reply actions  

You Suck!

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Aug 24, 2011 9:35 AM EDT reply actions   2 recs

Totally!

2011 fWAR watch: Theriot = 0.4, Boog = 2.5 as of Aug 24
Bilingual Twitter

by Paulspike on Aug 24, 2011 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Arencibia was the player I liked in 2007 besides Porcello.

Good lord that Kozma pick was terrible. I hated the Mortensen pick to start but warmed up to him b/c of his groundball rate. Should have stuck with my gut on that one.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Aug 24, 2011 9:40 AM EDT reply actions  

The silver lining of last night's game

We get this piece over at The Hardball Times about how quickly Pitcher Skip Schumaker works. He took as few as 8 seconds between pitches!

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 24, 2011 9:45 AM EDT reply actions  

Skip had a backwards K?

and hit 92mph? Impressive.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Aug 24, 2011 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

oh, it was a pitcher.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Aug 24, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

not just any pitcher

Blake Hawksworth.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Aug 24, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just looked into my crystal ball for next year

Skip is not our 2nd baseman.

But he is a relief pitcher.

by sdrone on Aug 24, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

i gave up on the game way before that

Actually, before Lohse was even out. I hate to be a fair weather fan. I’ll watch a team lose. But this thing is just frustrating.

2 Ks, retired 3 out of 5. But gave up a HR to aaron Miles?

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Aug 24, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Aaron Miles has been our nemesis this series.

How fitting.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Aug 24, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

If I had known Skip was gonna pitch,

I may have not turned it off.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Aug 24, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was lucky

I turned the game on, went upstairs and didn’t get back until Lohse finally got the third out of the first inning. I watched through the bottom of the first, decided I was giving up when Holliday and Berkman struck out back-to-back at curves in the dirt, then flipped back just in time to see the top of the ninth.

Skip did a pretty fair job of changing speeds too. The first (swinging) K was on an off-speed offering. Miles, I think, was just one of those lucky guesses where he went up there looking for a fastball and got one. If Skip had thrown the off-speed pitch first, Miles would have been way ahead of it.

by ArkansasTravs on Aug 24, 2011 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, really, what's the deal with him?

Has anyone come across any explanation from anyone to explain why he has been so sparingly used?

by bailorg on Aug 24, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because TLR

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Aug 24, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Leach said that he plans on asking soon

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Aug 24, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope it's because TLR asked if he could play 2B

and Scrabble told him to eff off.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 24, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pete Kozma is a saint!

I called the pick so I feel obligated to defend it. He wasn’t bad at all in high school. He was a stud. He led the team in all offensive categories and played one of the most demanding positions. Apparently the scouts saw something that translated well into hitting with a wood bat and jumped. His draft status was high round one or supplemental. I feel lilke he gets a bad rap around here because Rick Porcello was still on the board when we took him. His Stats

by OKCardsfan on Aug 24, 2011 10:35 AM EDT reply actions  

I'm sure Pete Kozma is a lovely human being.

However, he has not lived up to his draft status in any way, shape, or form, so there’s naturally going to be a bit of frustration with him. I didn’t hate the pick, just the players the Cards passed on to take the Koz. Four years on, it just doesn’t look like he’s ever going to hit enough to make it at the big league level. It’s unfortunate, because the few times I’ve seen him play in person it looks like he could handle shortstop without any trouble.

Or die trying.

by the red baron on Aug 24, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Reading the list of players in the rest of the 1st Rd (including Supp.)

shows there wasn’t much out there that year after Kozma. There’s only but a few – Arencibia, Cecil, Revere, Hunter, Luebke, who have made it to the majors and who look to be even relatively productive major leaguers. (and some of these guys are 2-3 years older than Koz).

Koz hasn’t turned out to be a good pick – we know that. But in a particularly awful draft, he’s not much of an indictment on the Cards’ scouting department, at least any more of one than on 80% of the other teams’ departments.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 24, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think hindsight has led to folks really disliking Kozma.

But, as RB points out, with the other players available for the Cardinals, it makes the Kozma pick worse that some of those players appear to have been better picks. Porcello being one of them.

What I will say is that I would hope any high schooler drafted would have “led his team in all offensive categories,” or at least most of them. Otherwise, he probably shouldn’t be drafted at all.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 24, 2011 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

So, it looks to me like Kozma is that lethal combination for a draft pick

He was a number one pick. He has been a bust. And regardless of hindsight he doesn’t look like all that great a pick for your first round choice.
Any prospect can turn into a bust. A prospect could look like a bad pick at the time and turn out way better. A prospect can look like a slam dunk at the time and then turn out only OK. Kozma has almost the worst possible combination of factors you could realistically have. It’s possible that a team could choose a guy with their first round pick that nobody has even ever heard of and looks like a monstrous over reach, and then the guy turns out to be just as terrible as everyone thought. But in the first round of the draft I’m guessing that sort of thing doesn’t happen often.

Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.

by mattybobo on Aug 24, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

If Kozma were anything other than a first round pick, no one would care, IMO.

What makes the selection worse is that the pick has evolved into a Porcello/Kozma, either/or hindsight argument. The pick is not as bad as it has been made out to be over the years and with Porcello’s big-league performance, which isn’t great, but isn’t bad, either. It’s funny that Porcello’s 5.00+ ERA this season seems to have silenced some of the criticism, even if his FIP is closer to 4.00 and better than last season.

I also think the last couple of drafts for the Cardinals and the successes of other organizational products in St. Louis have gone a long way in putting the Kozma pick in the rearview mirror.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 24, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

I’ve gathered that the “Kozma thing” is as much about perception as actual ramifications of the pick. Not really an important issue anymore though.

Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.

by mattybobo on Aug 24, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

And he shouldn't get a bad rap for that, the organization should.

I do disagree about his draft status though. There was a lot of chatter leading up to the draft about him falling pretty precipitously on a lot of different draft boards. Keith Law had teams taking him in the top 10 in early May, but by the week of the draft people were wondering if he was going to go in the first round or even in the supplemental round. More than one mock draft had him dropping into the second and some had him in the third round.

So, this was not Zach Cox (polished bat, decent defense) dropping out of the top 10 and falling to us. This was a high risk/high reward kid from high school that played a premium position that we probably reached for due to the complete lack of depth in the organization at his position. The fact that we passed on a number of other players who were better to reach for organizational need is telling. We haven’t done this in the first round since — we’ve taken the best player on the board (I guess you could make a case that we didn’t do that this year, but I think Wong was the best position player on the board, although not the best overall talent)

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Aug 24, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought

the main reason his stock dropped was because he signed a letter of intent at Witchita State. Regardless I agree with your main point about organizational need. Wasn’t this also one of Lunhows first drafts as the “BMOC”?

by OKCardsfan on Aug 24, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes

And rumor has always had it that Luhnow liked Porcello, but that the organization really wanted to grab a middle infielder.

I have no way to confirm or deny this rumor, and we’ll probably never know.

As far as his letter of intent goes, his stock would have dropped much farther than 2nd or 3rd round if teams thought his commitment was a firm one. Just look at how far Austin Wilson dropped last year. I think there was a real worry that he would struggle against better pitching, and I think that’s been justified by his play thus far.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Aug 24, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Per MLBTR...

Berkman is projected to be a type A free agent! This is the first good news for the BOB in about a month…right?

The Cards were surely gonna offer arb either way, and Berk is surely gonna decline either way. Now we get a slight advantage over other bidders, and get a nice extra pick if he signs elsewhere.

When do pitchers and catchers report?

by cardzfanbub on Aug 24, 2011 10:57 AM EDT reply actions  

Nice to see Edwin Jackson is clinging to a type B

Did anyone else fear that Cardinals would lose that draft pick when TLR left him out to absorb the 10 runs in that game against Mil earlier this month?

On the twitters

by creativereason on Aug 24, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

using advanced math i have counted 9-10 picks total for the cards

among the first and supplementary rounds if they offer arbitration to all their rated free agents and all of them decline

by prophetjohn on Aug 24, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Jackson, Berkman, Dotel … I guess you are counting Albert as well?

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Aug 24, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rhodes is a Type B?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 24, 2011 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

who is going to sign him to a MLB contract?

I mean he’ll likely get a MILB offer if anything.

THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!

by CodyG on Aug 24, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Rhodes were offered arbitration, wouldn't he accept it?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 24, 2011 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

probably

but he could always agree to decline I guess.

THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!

by CodyG on Aug 24, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

They better not...

"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor

by Alxfritz on Aug 24, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

agreed

Also Theriot is a type B as well.

THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!

by CodyG on Aug 24, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

nevermind

I was looking at last november’s rankings.

THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!

by CodyG on Aug 24, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Same as with Skippy...

not a FA till after 2012.

When do pitchers and catchers report?

by cardzfanbub on Aug 24, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

No pick for Skip...

he’s not a FA till after 2012.

When do pitchers and catchers report?

by cardzfanbub on Aug 24, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pretty sure...

we do unless there is a stipulation in his contract that we can’t off arby. Don’t usually see those on long term deals. That being said I still think it’s risky to offer Carp arby, he’d get prolly $14M if he accepted. Not sure if he could get a multi-year deal for those dollars on the open market.

When do pitchers and catchers report?

by cardzfanbub on Aug 24, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe

Rhodes will probably be Type B, but I don’t know that anyone will sign him. He’s probably going to retire.

I’m also not sure how the rules work on players with team option years either.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Aug 24, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

same as any other

once the option is declined, the player is a potential free agent, and you can choose to offer arbitration (or not).

"Now that they've come out with that great stat, 'innings pitched per inning'-- is there anything they don't have a stat for these days?" -Al Hraboski, 3 Jun 11

by SleepyCA on Aug 24, 2011 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Following up on the Wandy discussion from yesterday

Here is a nice breakdown from Fangraphs which floats the names of Wolf, Lilly, and De La Rosa.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 24, 2011 11:15 AM EDT reply actions  

He had a very rought first inning.

After that, I’m not sure.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 24, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

4 innings...

2 runs, 2 hits, 3 walks, a balk, and 3 strikeouts… (via future redbirds)

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our close rooms...the game of ball is glorious." Whitman

by pattimagee on Aug 24, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

So he settled down after the first inning.

That’s good news. Kary Booher tweeted this after the first:

Miller in 1st: 31 pitches, two runs on a Colon RBI single, another on a balk, five mound visits — 3 by C 1 by 2B, 1 by pitching coach

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 24, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sounds like he could have used a cold beer after the game.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Aug 24, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

the shakes are a bitch

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 24, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

The entire season has felt like that pre vomit feel after getting kicked in the balls.

Piss off Tony, get shipped to Canada.

by beer me on Aug 24, 2011 11:25 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Really? Even the part when we lead the Bigs in won/loss?

Any room left on the "Fire Tony" bandwagon? Need 1 ticket.

by Lambtron on Aug 24, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd say even then,

because we all kinda knew things just weren’t right.

Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.

- John Wayne

by Tackle Box on Aug 24, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lineup for the Cards

1. Jay CF
2. Furcal SS
3. Pujols 1B
4. Holliday LF
5. Berkman RF
6. Schumaker 2B
7. Laird C
8. Descalso 3B
9. Garcia P

by CarpIsMyManCrush on Aug 24, 2011 11:37 AM EDT reply actions  

Skip video embedded in this article. Doesn’t have him brushing back Barajas (or Skip apologizing, or Barajas telling him it’s OK).

Colby in TOR: .216/.239/.398 3HR 22K/3BB 8/23

by The Continental on Aug 24, 2011 11:43 AM EDT reply actions  

that was funny

Al went on and on about how he can’t do that (apologize).

by ArkansasTravs on Aug 24, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Anybody going to Loufest this weekend?

pretty excited for Surferbloods, Roots, Deerhunter, Dom, etc…

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our close rooms...the game of ball is glorious." Whitman

by pattimagee on Aug 24, 2011 11:46 AM EDT reply actions  

Yeah on Saturday.

I don’t know many of the bands, but I expect they will be great.

Any room left on the "Fire Tony" bandwagon? Need 1 ticket.

by Lambtron on Aug 24, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

So yesterday is the low point in the season.

We will look back on it and say that is the game right before the cards won 13 in a row, swept the Brewers twice and won the division. Right?

FREE TYLER GREENE!
FIRE TLR!

by hittmeier on Aug 24, 2011 11:56 AM EDT reply actions  

the spirit of A Fink moves through you.

if this comes to be, I don’t know how I will react.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Aug 24, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

count me in.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Aug 24, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes

it’s also the game right before mo freed tyler green and fired TLR

by prophetjohn on Aug 24, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

of course they have...

it’s hard to keep enough pitchers available when you only have 12 or 13 on the roster and all those other teams carry 14 or 15. Right?

On the twitters

by creativereason on Aug 24, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fuck you TLR

I’m getting my preemptive strike in.

I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby

by bbfanatic on Aug 24, 2011 12:00 PM EDT reply actions  

seems fitting

not sure I care for The Lou being called a dank armpit.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 24, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that's typical "flyover country" type nonsense.

We could easily come up with derogatory nicknames for L.A. next the the Cardinals visit there… but then again we don’t usually act like children.

Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.

by mattybobo on Aug 24, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm sure when Cali breaks off and Arizona is beachfront property

being in an armpit won’t seem so bad.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 24, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

and, now that the east coast is going to break off too

I guess there won’t be anybody left to do the flying over.

by ArkansasTravs on Aug 24, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

hah. Is it really that bad in Peoria?

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 24, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Factoid that may only interest me:

Only 6 NL teams, including the Cardinals, are currently over .500

by bailorg on Aug 24, 2011 12:42 PM EDT reply actions  

Top six!

Expand the playoffs!

Hit me up on Google+
FIRE TONY LA RUSSA

by jd is legend on Aug 24, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

How about this?

Top two in each division for six per league, seeded one thru six based on record.
5 plays 6 in a one-game playoff.
winner of 5-6 plays 4 in a one-gamer.
The surviving four play best-of-seven twice to get the Pennant champ.

Any room left on the "Fire Tony" bandwagon? Need 1 ticket.

by Lambtron on Aug 24, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Based on the theory that the division winners should get an advantage.

Certainly, you could have one division claim two or more of the first 3 seeds, but that’s okay: if there is a weakling division leader, they deserve to be pushed down.
5 and 6 have to win twice to get “in,” and 4 only has to win once.
(Option: the second one-gamer could be changed to best of 3)
I think I might be on to something. Get me Selig on line 2!

Any room left on the "Fire Tony" bandwagon? Need 1 ticket.

by Lambtron on Aug 24, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okay, so i didn't see anyone else ask

How in the world did Matt Carpenter draw a walk on a throw to first base?

Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.

- John Wayne

by Tackle Box on Aug 24, 2011 12:51 PM EDT reply actions  

You know, inside jokes are dumb and childish

especially when I’m not on the inside…..

Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.

- John Wayne

by Tackle Box on Aug 24, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

At work

Can’t pull up link. What’s this about?

by Merry CRasmus on Aug 24, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

And then Kruk is all like,

“This isn’t gonna work, Mr. James, seriously can we just—whoa, I can totally see the veins inside my eyeball when you do that!”

Ceterum censeo La Russa ire necesse est.

by mattybobo on Aug 24, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

According to ESPN Beisbol (en español)

They have Bill James “sharing this afternoon with them” . Apparently he is teaching some sort of seminar called ESPN Newsmaker. He is wearing a brown suit with a grey shirt. There’s a guy with shorts, too.

2011 fWAR watch: Theriot = 0.4, Boog = 2.5 as of Aug 24
Bilingual Twitter

by Paulspike on Aug 24, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ahh

Well that wasn’t was I was hoping for.

by Merry CRasmus on Aug 24, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's what we need

more news “made” by espn.

Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.

- John Wayne

by Tackle Box on Aug 24, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

"There's a guy with shorts, too"

and gym shoes.

Must be an intern…..lucky fucker.

Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.

- John Wayne

by Tackle Box on Aug 24, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Protected Draft Picks...

I don’t know the likelihood of the Cards going after a Type A free agent that isn’t their own, so this may be moot.

We currently are in position for the 19th draft pick in 2012; 3.5 games behind Cincinatti for pick #15 (the final “protected” 1st round pick). The White Sox are .5 games back at 16, Cleveland is a game back at 17, and Toronto 2 games back at 18. We have a 1 game lead on the Giants who have the 20th pick as of right now. I say we change our goal from winning the division/wild card to “winning” the 15th pick in the draft (based on recent play I think the team may already be a step ahead of me). Who’s with me?

When do pitchers and catchers report?

by cardzfanbub on Aug 24, 2011 1:40 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm down

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Aug 24, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Conveniently enough

so are Kyle Lohse, TLR, Corey Patterson, Jake Westbrook, Ryan Theriot, and the insect population of the downtown St. Louis area. Plenty of others on the team seem to be ambivalent, as best as I can tell. Only Carp seems vehemently opposed to the idea.

What is Corey Patterson doing in Tyler Greene's spot on the 25-man roster?

by Robth on Aug 24, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Carp's just a contrary badass.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 24, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

if we don't sign Pujols

we better be going after some Type A talent

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Aug 24, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Robert Stock

Are you saying you still believe in him as a catcher?

If so, I’d like to see some explanation as to why you think this way. From all reports I’ve seen he’s awful defensively, and he hit more homers in his first month at age 17 at USC than he’s hit in 3 years as a pro in 700+ PA’s. I thought he was a great high upside pick as a catcher, but I think he’s demonstrated that he’s not any kind of prospect as a catcher, or as any other position player really, since he can’t hit.

Now, we had a catcher in our farm system much like Robert Stock a few years back. He struggled mightily with the bat but demonstrated a cannon arm. At age 24 they took him out from behind the plate and stuck him in the bullpen, where he proceeded to strike out nearly 12 batters per nine with a K/BB of nearly 4 in the next 4 seasons in A, AA, and AAA. That player? Jason Motte.

Stock was above average on the mound in college. Showed a fastball that averaged 92-93 and touched 95 on occasion with an above average breaking ball. It’s clear to me that the organization would get more value out of him as a pitching prospect at this point than as a catcher, especially since Cody Stanley has looked much better behind the plate this season than Stock has, both defensively and offensively.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Aug 24, 2011 3:07 PM EDT reply actions  

RB - great article

I was trying to remember yesterday who the 1st round picks were in 2007 and 2008 and could not remember. Now I can see why. Eminently forgettable.

Also Odorizzi pitched last night for the Naturals against Shelby Miller in Springfield. He seemed to match Shelby pretty well for the first 4 innings. It was 2-2 when Miller left after 4. Odorizzi gave up 2 more in the 6th.

Who is TLR's next victim?

by spfldbird on Aug 24, 2011 3:56 PM EDT reply actions  

FREE TYLER GREENE!

That is all. Also: You suck b/c of ! J/K. You Rock b/c of ! D.GOOCH

by Donald Gooch on Aug 24, 2011 4:06 PM EDT reply actions  

! =

[insert reasons]…not sure why that displayed as an exclamation point. Er…!!!! D.GOOCH

by Donald Gooch on Aug 24, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

! =

[insert reasons]…not sure why that displayed as an exclamation point. Er…!!!! D.GOOCH

by Donald Gooch on Aug 24, 2011 4:08 PM EDT reply actions  

no comment really,

I just found this funny……

…..and see if I can’t shed some light on what I think is a very widely held belief based on some incorrect facts.

if they’re incorrect, they’re not facts, are they? It’s kind of like “True Lies”.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Aug 24, 2011 6:11 PM EDT reply actions  

What I don't get about the Tyler Greene talk:

Even if he has flaws, he is certainly one of the best 25 players on the Cardinals. So, he should be on the team.

by EddieHarsch on Aug 24, 2011 8:26 PM EDT reply actions  

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