Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Trent Richardson Interviews Fellow Brown Brandon Weeden

The Cardinals losing to the Reds, mood-by-mood

ST. LOUIS, MO - JULY 6: Reliever Brandon Dickson #65 of the St. Louis Cardinals pitches against the Cincinnati Redsat Busch Stadium on July 6, 2011 in St. Louis, Missouri.  (Photo by Dilip Vishwanat/Getty Images)

Ballgame Sucks

Jake Westbrook is the kind of pitcher you get when you find yourself, through poorly executed plans or bad luck, forced to pay the going rate for free agent pitchers who have been average in the past, and the going rate for these guys is terrible because if you need one of them it's because you clearly have no other options. It's like when you're thirsty halfway through a day at Six Flags and you have no choice but to spend four bucks on something called a Mr. Freeze Cooool Chiller at that concession stand that is, for whatever reason, still themed like Batman & Robin is just about to come out.

Those four dollars would go down a lot easier if you were able to actually buy the thing you want with them, but Westbrook only represents rotational stability relative to the Cardinals' other options at the time. Westbrook has finally differentiated his strikeout rate from his walk rate, but his mercifully low home run rate is up at the same time. It wasn't necessarily a mistake to sign him, but it was a mistake to get trapped into signing him. Next time, smuggle a backpack filled with Lance Lynns into the park, please. 

I never really thought about Albert Pujols not hitting so long as he was in the lineup and the Cardinals were winning, but now that he's back I realize just how strange all those lineups without him looked. The games just didn't seem quite as real, like I was watching a team in limbo. 

Ballgame Over

Aside from all-time pinch runner and delusional team mascot I don't think any role is less illuminated by the traditional baseball line than lefty specialist. Trever Miller's ERA is still nearly league average, but at this moment opponents have an OPS of .800 against him. The Rolen homer aside La Russa has done a great job of spotting him—he's faced twice as many left-handers as right-handers—but the right-handers are simply hitting him too hard (8-18 with four extra-base hits) and the left-handers, while still held powerless and BAbipless, are walking far too much. 

Star-divide

He should still be the last of the veterans to go, because unlike Brian Tallet he's still kind of fulfilling his role and his role is actually useful, but LOOGYs can't walk left-handers this frequently; their only job is to turn one batter into one out, and when they don't do it a roster spot has been wasted for the afternoon. 

Brandon Dickson looks surprisingly good as a reliever when he's throwing 94. That kind of performance makes me wonder how many career minor league starters of this variety—no fastball, several pitches, keeps the ball out of the air—would have extended Major League careers if they were only sent on the Kyle McClellan career path. (Earlier this year the Washington Nationals grabbed the player I always confuse Dickson with, Brian Broderick, in the Rule 5 draft and used him for a while before returning him to a grateful, pitching-starved Redbirds staff; he's another lanky sinkerballer with less-than-striking peripherals, but he didn't get the velocity boost, averaging 89.5 miles per hour on his fastball. This is the first time I have ever been able to tell them apart.)

The Almost Comeback

Brandon Dickson can also hit!

I wish this had had more to do with Albert Pujols and less to do with Daniel Descalso, Tony Cruz, Jon Jay, and Brandon Dickson, but their importance in the almost-comeback tells us about all that we need to know about how infuriating it would have been to lose Albert Pujols last year, rather than this year: Those guys could have been Felipe Lopez, Jason LaRue, Randy Winn, and Mike MacDougal, but that is not who they were. 

So in addition to Matt Holliday's home run the Cardinals got a brilliant game from Descalso, third round 2007; one of those not-especially-meaningful-at-the-time doubles from Cruz, 26th/2007; a game-tying home run from Jay, 2/2006, who makes fourth-outfielding entirely bearable; and a single and some perfect mopup work from Dickson, who wasn't drafted at all. 

The game started out with Westbrook illustrating the Cardinals' developmental failures and ended with the bench nearly vindicating the farm system entirely. Jeff Luhnow probably taped it. 

I have to imagine these faulty comebacks haunt Tony La Russa more than the average manager, because they seem like definitive proof that a Major League manager must display constant, paranoid vigilance, lest he be made to look like a fool when his struggling lefty specialist pitches to Scott Rolen. La Russa takes hitters out earlier than I'd like for the sake of getting a new reliever into the game, but I don't think he does it appreciably more than the average NL manager; if I had to bet on any one manager believing in the impossible ideal of playing all 162 games at full speed it would be him. 

In this case, the team ran out of pitchers not because La Russa sometimes manages the bullpen like he's at an All-Star Game for marginally useful situational relievers but because his starter got squashed and the team, improbably, came back. 

Comment 240 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

heres to hoping that lohse goes 8+ innings

our bp needs a break

"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11

by hr on Jul 7, 2011 8:09 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

sadly, yes

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 63

by d-dee on Jul 7, 2011 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

oh, really

that’s not good

"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11

by hr on Jul 7, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Motte only threw 3 pitches last night

should be good for a couple if necessary

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jul 7, 2011 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

You're forgetting that strike he threw to second!

The Roger Dean Project was swell while it lasted.

by a fink on Jul 7, 2011 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

I guess motte and lynn are our freshest

hopefully they are only needed for 2 or 3 innings

"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11

by hr on Jul 7, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Little Red Riding Peej to the rescue?
BJRains From P.J. Walters’ dad…could he be on his way to help the Cardinals bullpen? RT "@pwalters25: Change of plans. No Round Rock."

...and his name was Eduardo Sanchez, and the name of his slider was Death -DanUp

by The Continental on Jul 7, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

who would he replace?

I’m quite fond of everyone (except maybe trever) in the bullpen…I guess dickson?

"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11

by hr on Jul 7, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

valdes

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 63

by d-dee on Jul 7, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

tbh I'd rather have valdes than walters

considering that trever would be our only lefty option if valdes was gone

"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11

by hr on Jul 7, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

not the answer i was looking for, hr...

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 63

by d-dee on Jul 7, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm trying to compeletely forget about yesterday, and I was doing pretty well, too

gah. now every time someone mentions raul valdes, I will remember this game. Curses!

"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11

by hr on Jul 7, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

valdes

I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

by TBender on Jul 7, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

My bet would be Hamilton,

and the club carries thirteen pitchers after the extra-innings game last night. Then, I would hope they would go back to a twelve-man staff after the All-Star break (if not before).

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 7, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

that sounds reasonable.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 7, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

I forgot they took PJ off of it.

Another roster move forgotten. I thought they had DFA’d Augenstein?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 7, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

oh, yeah, this makes most sense

I agree that 12 pitchers should be enough; we just caught a really unlucky break yesterday

"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11
All the cool kids have these:
Twitter | Google+

by hr on Jul 7, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

There is no tease quite like the "wake up to learn that the team improbably came back from a billion runs to tie and then ended up losing by one run" tease

Since the score was 9-8, for a split second my eyes deceived me while looking at the information in the ticker on MLB Network, and I thought the Cardinals had won. The numbers look similar enough that my early-morning eye sight was fooled. A cruel twist.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 7, 2011 8:22 AM EDT reply actions  

Join. The. Club.

Goddamnit i think to myself.

All i want to do, is get close to you and wake up in the early morning dew

by Aranathor on Jul 7, 2011 8:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

at home too!

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR

by sportsman on Jul 7, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

We have a Colby problem

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 7/3/2011)
68 2/3 IP, 83 K, 31 BB/HBP, 26 ER, 3 HR, 2.70 FIP

by VolsnCards5 on Jul 7, 2011 8:40 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

To clarify

Colby has hit into some awful luck the last 3-4 weeks. To counteract that, he is starting to really press, leading to ugly swings at bad pitches. His BB% has been cut in half. It was during one of these “slumps” last year that the issues between Colby and Tony cropped up.

I wish Tony would move him back to the two hole. He seemed more patient there, and we had skip f’in schumaker there yesterday.

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 7/3/2011)
68 2/3 IP, 83 K, 31 BB/HBP, 26 ER, 3 HR, 2.70 FIP

by VolsnCards5 on Jul 7, 2011 9:03 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Yea, but what are the chances of that longterm?

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 7/3/2011)
68 2/3 IP, 83 K, 31 BB/HBP, 26 ER, 3 HR, 2.70 FIP

by VolsnCards5 on Jul 7, 2011 9:26 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Skip gets ragged on a lot around here

Some of it deserved, a lot of it not, but he played a fantastic game last night. He looks much improved on defense this year and he nearly had a .700 ops in June, he’s not setting the world on fire but he’s hardly deserving of a lot of the scorn he’s been getting around here.

by lopey986 on Jul 7, 2011 9:48 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Schumaker doesn't even have a .700 OPS for June?

Wow, I’d have thought that his OPS would have been higher. So, a good month from Schumaker is a sub-.700 OPS? I hope this is his final season in St. Louis.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 7, 2011 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

And like was said below, while I appreciate Skip more than most, I do hope we let him walk after this season. I just think we have better options at this point. But he isn’t as bad, over the course of the season, as most make him out to be.

by Stanley1 on Jul 7, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's a bit difficult to see Skip out at 2B

when the opposing second baseman is Utley/Phillips/Walker/Weeks/etc.

I’m sure that contributes to it as well.

by Ghostrider520 on Jul 7, 2011 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's like...

when you just ate some macaroni and cheese (the cheesiest!)… then your friends invite you out to a nice dinner on the house immediately afterwards which you have to decline.

Although, Skip could never ascend to the heights of macaroni and cheese… the analogy remains.

You need to respect the baby... 'cause life is precious... and God... and the Bible.

by timetraveltome on Jul 7, 2011 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

to be fair,

I’ve done my share of Skip/Theriot bashing, becaues I want Herr/Smith out there. But, to be honest, Theriot isn’t Smith but since that meltdown game he had a few weeks ago he’s been better. Skip isn’t Herr either but he’s been better as well lately. He’s actually made some pretty nice plays.
But I’m not advocating keeping either of them at their respective positions.
Can the Cardinals win with Skip at 2b and Theriot at ss? hmmm!
I think they can if the offense produces up to it’s potential and the bullpen becomes solid.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 7, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hmmm, well you may want to lower your expectations there.

You have a word class defender and first ballot Hall of Famer on the left side of the bag. Tommy Herr is like Rickie Weeks in that he was pretty consistent for a long time and had a random great year thrown in (’85)

Though I suppose Weeks will likely prove to be better in the near future, that’s the closest comparison I can make as Baseball-Ref was no help at all.

"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker

TWITTER

by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 7, 2011 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

just clarifying...

I’m saying what I want, not what I expect. Anybody would want Ozzie at short but wouldn’t expect to have him.
In general, I’m just saying I’d like to have something really solid and reliable at ss & 2b instead of what we have.
 I think Tommy Herr might be the best defensive 2bman we’ve had in the last 25 years, but I could be wrong. Still, I’d like tyo have another one like him and quit worrying about 2b.
 We had something at ss just last year, but……..I’m not opening that can of worms again.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 8, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure he is

He was worth -.3 WAR last year. He is hitting worse this year than he did last year. Somehow his positive UZR of .8 is buoying his numbers this year, and I don’t expect that to continue. At his absolute peak he was something like an average player, and now that he’s most probably past that peak he really doesn’t have much going for him.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 7, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

A below average hitter with bad defense is pretty awful

He has a .280 wOBA and barring a career renaissance where he magically learned how to play defense 10x better than before, he is awful at defense.

At best, I’d say he’s a -5 UZR defender. There’s just no way he magically learned how to play average defense.

"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker

TWITTER

by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 7, 2011 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's pretty sad that it's a positive that Skip almost had a .700 OPS in June.

And he is an awful defender. Seriously, and June was a GOOD month for him. DFA’ing him would not bother me one bit.

"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker

TWITTER

by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 7, 2011 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heh

Mired-in-slump Colby Rasmus is OBPing .336. That is currently at least above the average of .319. 2011 Skip Schumaker is slugging .337. That is well below even the “Year of the Pitcher Part Deux” average of .396.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 7, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Skip Schumaker career OBP .344

Colby Rasmus career OBP .335.

Just sayin’.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 7, 2011 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

That was a fun game

I’m still pissed that LaRussa let Miller pitch to Rolen. I know what he was thinking, Left-right-left. If I can get through the righty I may still have enough bullpen left.

However; he didn’t get through the righty, and the game would have been over in the 9th inning instead of the 13th. And I would have had a lot more sleep and been a lot less crabby than I am now.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 7, 2011 9:02 AM EDT reply actions  

6-0 game is not completely out of a hand

at least, not at the level of a 8-0 game.

Right handers are hitting .444 and slugging .833. Did anyone here actually think that Miller was going to be able to get scott rolen out?

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 7, 2011 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

I expected a walk

but my point was that the cardinals scoring 8 runs was reliant on everything that happened before they scored 8 runs

by STLRegalia on Jul 7, 2011 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

my point was leaving Miller in to face Rolen was stupid

I mean, sure if it was 6-0 instead of 8-0, we might have seen Arryo pulled much earlier instead of getting the longer leash.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 7, 2011 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

fixed

leaving bringing Miller in to face Rolen anyone was stupid

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jul 7, 2011 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wrong

Miller came in and got Bruce out. He did his job and retired the lefty.

by lopey986 on Jul 7, 2011 11:10 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

And he K'd Lewis after Rolen.

The Roger Dean Project was swell while it lasted.

by a fink on Jul 7, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

so are you guys ok with Miller being on the team?

I just think he is terrible. Or maybe his just being utilized terribly by TLR.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jul 7, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

No, I'm not okay with him being on the team. I'd love to take a long look at all other options.

However, yesterday’s use of him was correct as long as he is on the team.

The Roger Dean Project was swell while it lasted.

by a fink on Jul 7, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Right.

I definitely don’t like him it’s just there are not a whole lot of options right now.

by hittmeier on Jul 7, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

More than okay

He did the job he is supposed to do. Retire lefties. It’s not his fault tlr opted to leave him in to face rolen.

by lopey986 on Jul 7, 2011 11:52 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

pitching around rolen to get to the lefty would have been a better idea

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

by IHeartBoog on Jul 7, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

yep

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 7, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well he hasn't done this job in the past.

He constantly falls behinds hitters and regularly walks lefties.

"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker

TWITTER

by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 7, 2011 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

I dislike when people have ifs that expect everything after the if to occur the same way

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jul 7, 2011 10:48 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

then take everything after it completely off the table

Runner on first, 2 outs. Scott Rolen is batting.

Is Miller your choice to pitch to him in a winable ball game?

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 7, 2011 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Our offense is great and we did score at but at that point in time

A 6-0 game is not something you play as “winnable” unless it’s in the first three or four innings. You can’t manage expecting the unreasonable, you have to position your team to succeed at it’s best while not tiring or hurting players as best as possible and huge leads like leads of six runs lend themselves to being less on edge and using the opportunity for things like resting, getting guys on track, avoiding injury risks. I’m not saying always pretend 6-0 is 10-0 but if it’s 6-0 leaving Miller in isnt the end of the world. If you do it when it’s a 1 or 2 run lead or so then yes it’s stupid

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jul 7, 2011 10:58 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

what?

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 7, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Really? You're going to call "down 6-0 with a runner on 2nd" a high leverage situation?

I think that’s what you’re getting at here.

Lewis and Bruce are both lefties. No, Miller isn’t a good guy to go against Rolen, but he gets loose really quickly and 2
of the next 3 batters were lefties when he came in. What happened is unfortunate, especially after considering what happened in the next few innings, but this is NOT a “OMG TLR SUX” moment for me. Not even close.

The Roger Dean Project was swell while it lasted.

by a fink on Jul 7, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

winable?

according to fangraphs we only had a 3.2% chance of winning before Rolen batted.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jul 7, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

So you're saying there's a chance...

Whoo!

You need to respect the baby... 'cause life is precious... and God... and the Bible.

by timetraveltome on Jul 7, 2011 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

fangraphs

would just throw in the towel?

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 7, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

yea,

I’m ok with it too. I can’t look at it as a bad decision, it just didn’t didn’t have the desired outcome.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 7, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

it had really the only possible outcome

I would say rolen had about a 75% chance of hitting a HR off of miller.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 7, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

of those 17

how many were scott rolen?

Righties have an ops of 1.288 against Miller.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 7, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Scott Rolen came into that AB with less homers than Yadi.

Miller isn’t good against right-handed hitters. No doubt. It’s just not at all likely, let alone 75% chance, that Rolen will hit that ball out.

The Roger Dean Project was swell while it lasted.

by a fink on Jul 7, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

that's certainly not how I felt before or after it

What is the chance that Pujols hits these two home runs?

Now, how many people new that second one was coming?

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 7, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

there were several possible outcomes.

only one of them was a HR.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 7, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's like on Phineas and Ferb when Candace finally busts the boys

and then the whole world goes to crap.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jul 7, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

once you're 6-0 behind IMO you should more or less give up.

I don’t really think the minutiae of who pitches then matters much, in the great scheme of things. You should just try to use as few pitchers as possible.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 7, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

is it bad that i don't really care we lost but i'm loving it that we crushed the reds' spirit?

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 63

by d-dee on Jul 7, 2011 9:37 AM EDT reply actions  

that is what was good about that game

as soon as westy gave up five runs, anything positive we did was a bonus as the game had really gotten away from us. I know most people (me included) don’t put a lot of weight on intangibles but the Reds have got to be kicking themselves and our bullpen pitched very, very well.

All i want to do, is get close to you and wake up in the early morning dew

by Aranathor on Jul 7, 2011 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

its amazaing how good our bullpen is after dropping Franktista

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jul 7, 2011 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

not to be a buzz killer....

but I still cringe at this bullbpen. It’s still somewhat shaky.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 7, 2011 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

I thunk the right-handed part is very good

And the left hand part is somewhat, which to me spells solid. Of course that all personal opinion

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jul 7, 2011 11:18 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

*think

*somewhat hidable

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jul 7, 2011 11:25 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Last night,

the bullpen put up the following line:

8.2 IP, 2 R, 2 ER, 4 BB, 6 H, 10 SO

That’s a pretty good performance.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 7, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

sometimes...

but not yesterday.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 7, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yesterday...

all my troubles seemed so far away. Now it looks like they are here to stay. Oh, I believe in yesterday.

You need to respect the baby... 'cause life is precious... and God... and the Bible.

by timetraveltome on Jul 7, 2011 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Why she had to go

I don’t know
she wouldn’t say…

All i want to do, is get close to you and wake up in the early morning dew

by Aranathor on Jul 7, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

couldn't resist, eh?

I know how it is.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 7, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

this will be fine until Rui and VEP show up.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 7, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

why?

because the beatles suck more than Skip?

by STLRegalia on Jul 7, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

blasphemy!

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 7, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was reallly impressed with dickson, at least one of the walks he allowed were because he was

getting squeezed badly.

His 94 mph FB should be awesome in the pen with his control and GB tendencies.

THE BATMAN
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the entire time."
Twitter|Google+

by CodyG on Jul 7, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

I haven't yet caught him pitching for the Cardinals,

but I’ve seen pitch twice for Memphis. And I can’t believe he is throwing 94 MPH. Late last season, his fastball was sitting at 90 MPH and he was struggling to locate it. I suppose that was one late-season start, but the 4 MPH jump folks have referenced pleasantly surprised me.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 7, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe he's using a 4 seamer more while in the pen a la Lynn.

THE BATMAN
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the entire time."
Twitter|Google+

by CodyG on Jul 7, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Pitch F/X

Texas Leaguers has his average four-seamer velocity at 91.2 MPH. Fangraphs has it at 90.9 MPH. These seem more realistic to me.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 7, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

I mean he was topping out at 94 and hitting 93 a few time, by the second inning

he was throwing more 88-90

THE BATMAN
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the entire time."
Twitter|Google+

by CodyG on Jul 7, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'll have to look at the Gameday numbers after work.

An inning of 93-94 MPH fastballs with his slider would be pretty nice.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 7, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

if what we saw from Dickson...

is a true indication of what he’ll be, then hallelujah.!

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 7, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

If the gain in velocity is because of the move to the pen and not just one occurence thing, then i could

see him and Lynn being awesome long men in the pen this year for Kmac and Westbrook starts.

THE BATMAN
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the entire time."
Twitter|Google+

by CodyG on Jul 7, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

You don't show your teeth as much...

when you realize a few of them are dead.

You need to respect the baby... 'cause life is precious... and God... and the Bible.

by timetraveltome on Jul 7, 2011 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

eh?

The Roger Dean Project was swell while it lasted.

by a fink on Jul 7, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

The typical go-to response...

for Canada’s sports fans.

You need to respect the baby... 'cause life is precious... and God... and the Bible.

by timetraveltome on Jul 7, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

C'est quoi, ça ?

The Roger Dean Project was swell while it lasted.

by a fink on Jul 7, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

*uncrosses eyes*

Is this some kind of Alice’s Restaurant reference?

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 7, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

The typical go-to response...

for people searching for an Alice’s Restaurant reference.

You need to respect the baby... 'cause life is precious... and God... and the Bible.

by timetraveltome on Jul 7, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

well,

they are hard to find.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 7, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

and they all moved away from him

on the group W bench.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 7, 2011 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

I still can’t believe that the cardinal can actually lose to the red, the owners have already spent a lot of money on the players and they are not doing their best.

Halloween World

by rfreddreka on Jul 7, 2011 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

No.

I’m not upset we lost. Once you get to extra innnings after being down so much that’s a moral victory in itself. Especially Jon Jay hitting a home run to get us there, I think overall some positive things came from this game even if it had an annoying result.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
"If I do it wrong just break another toe. Three's my lucky number anyway." -Evan Lysacek: 2010 Olympic Gold Medalist ♥

by ClemsonGirl on Jul 7, 2011 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm with you, d-dee.

that was a good series and the last game should give the Reds something to think about.
They blew an 8 run lead. That had to smart even though they pulled it out.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 7, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

At what point did Berkman come out

I was at the game and it seemed awfuly early to take out your regulars. Sure could have used him later on. Luckily I was running late and missed the top of the 1st. There’s nothing like sitting in your seat and looking up to see there’s a 5-run hole to climb out of.

by egc80 on Jul 7, 2011 9:43 AM EDT reply actions  

berkman came out on a doubleswitch in the 6th

If Berkman didn’t come out, then Dixon wouldn’t have been able to throw 3 innings.

The only oddity is why take berkman out over Rasmus.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 7, 2011 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

At that point it was 8-0

He prolly figured he’d rest up berkman and let Colby try to get somethig going at the plate during the blowout.

by lopey986 on Jul 7, 2011 9:51 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

moving the pitcher spot as far as well as possible is the correct move

when you are going to need multiple innings out of that pitcher

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 7, 2011 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

double switch is the correct move

we’d be talking about him taking two at bats if it wasn’t made.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 7, 2011 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree that the double switch is the correct move,

but I wouldn’t call it a downfall of NL baseball. I’d call it strategy according to the rules of real baseball. It makes the NL much more fun.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 7, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Don’t encourage La Russa… ever.

You need to respect the baby... 'cause life is precious... and God... and the Bible.

by timetraveltome on Jul 7, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

ah!!! thanx!

I didn’t see it.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 7, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

An optometrist can help.

You need to respect the baby... 'cause life is precious... and God... and the Bible.

by timetraveltome on Jul 7, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I probably need a sarcasmatrist....

but I did get smacked square in the eye yesterday by a bungee cord hook. Maybe that’s it.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 7, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Dan Cortese was ever accused of domestic violence...

I’d imagine it’d be quite similar to your plight.

You need to respect the baby... 'cause life is precious... and God... and the Bible.

by timetraveltome on Jul 7, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

bad, bad game

Last night’s game is the kind of game that can really
hurt you when you are in a tight pennant race. It would have
been better had the cards not rallied.

First you send the Reds off to play the Brewers (your chisf opposition)
with an exhausted pitching while shorting yourself With a hot club
coming for a 4 game series coming in with you.

Had La Russa not tried to get an inning out of Miller in a game he thought was
lost, this would not have happened. But I can’t blame La Russa, I probably
would have thought like him but we know now. Miller if he stays should be only a
one batter left handed loogy.

by ridgesee on Jul 7, 2011 9:50 AM EDT reply actions  

can't get rid of Miller

without a lefty to take his place.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 7, 2011 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know

watching the team come back from 8 runs down is great for the fans, and the players have to take something positive from that surely. well all except Westbrook….

All i want to do, is get close to you and wake up in the early morning dew

by Aranathor on Jul 7, 2011 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah talk about a complete 180.

7/1 – 7 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 3 BB, 7 K, 0 HR allowed (26 batters faced)
7/6 – 4.1 IP, 8 H, 1 BB, 0 K, 3 HR allowed (22 batters faced)

He’s given up at least 4 ER in 8 of his 18 starts. In 3 of those 18 starts, he hasn’t given up any runs at all. Mind-boggling.

by Ghostrider520 on Jul 7, 2011 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

I just saw the good part and then the bad ending so I don't have the same thoughts as you.

But I think this is silly. You should play every game to win. The team can take that they fought back and made a game of it when it looked like it was over from the start. You can’t worry about where your opposition goes next and what your doing to their bullpen that takes you out of the game of the moment.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
"If I do it wrong just break another toe. Three's my lucky number anyway." -Evan Lysacek: 2010 Olympic Gold Medalist ♥

by ClemsonGirl on Jul 7, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think your glass is half empty.

that was anything but a bad, bad game.
I enjoyed it immensely. I saw my team come back from 8-0 and damn near win it. You can’t win them all but when you can come back like that it has to have some real positives.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 7, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nicely said.

The Roger Dean Project was swell while it lasted.

by a fink on Jul 7, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

People

like to twist shit. I also like to play to win everytime, all the time and I pulled all the way to the end… and I enjoyed it to the end. But with the end and the final outcome it can be counter productive just as I said. In the end it could be a bad, bad game for for both teams.

by ridgesee on Jul 7, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I respectfully disagree.

 but it’s a matter of personal perception, I guess. There were far more positives than negatives? there was one bad, bad inning.
one run difference makes it a bad, bad game? Nah!

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 7, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, Dave

you’re right It’s just a personal perception. Over the years I have just come to look at any loss as a bad game. No matter how exciting. But I don’t walk around with my glass half empty. That’s what irrated me a little….but not much and that you took time to state, “I respectfully disagree,” shows you’re a nice guy.

by ridgesee on Jul 7, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't mean to irritate you.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 8, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh please...

the Mr. Freeze Coool Chiller costs at least 6 bucks.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
"If I do it wrong just break another toe. Three's my lucky number anyway." -Evan Lysacek: 2010 Olympic Gold Medalist ♥

by ClemsonGirl on Jul 7, 2011 10:29 AM EDT reply actions  

Even more reason to,

“smuggle a backpack filled with Lance Lynns into the park.”

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 7, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Did you write 60% of what you meant to write?

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jul 7, 2011 10:45 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Shelby, yes.

Martinez, yes…in the 2nd game.

by Ghostrider520 on Jul 7, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great.

Gun to your head who do you think will be better?

by hittmeier on Jul 7, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Miller.

I think his size makes him a safer bet to remain a healthy starter.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 7, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

i would love to see miller at busch .. to see how he handles the coors


but seriously, a minor league showcase to see him at the big ballbark would be very nice

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 63

by d-dee on Jul 7, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah..

god I need a towl everytime I think of both of them in the rotation though.

by hittmeier on Jul 7, 2011 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Bingo

"Sometimes you scare me." - azruavatar

by spants on Jul 7, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

i hope they both pitch in the futures game....does ESPN air that game?

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

by IHeartBoog on Jul 7, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

the answer is yes; mlb.tv and on espn2 at 6 ET

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

by IHeartBoog on Jul 7, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Martinez, he has better stuff than Miller

he just needs more seasoning.

THE BATMAN
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the entire time."
Twitter|Google+

by CodyG on Jul 7, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ok this may be a dumb question..

 I know they both have good fastballs and I’ve looked at their godlike stats but what are their plus secondary pitches? I wish I could watch them pitch

by hittmeier on Jul 7, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

They've harnessed the power of the gyroball...

Beware!

You need to respect the baby... 'cause life is precious... and God... and the Bible.

by timetraveltome on Jul 7, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Both have plus curves and improving changes.

THE BATMAN
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the entire time."
Twitter|Google+

by CodyG on Jul 7, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

*change up pitches.

THE BATMAN
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the entire time."
Twitter|Google+

by CodyG on Jul 7, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Here's the scouting report on Miller

by Kevin Goldstein on Baseball Prospectus. (It’s from last September.)

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 7, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

They're similar in the way that

they both have awesome control for being power pitchers, Martinez is able to keep the ball on the ground better though with a 60% GB rate so far this year.

Sickels covered them both this week for the futures game

Shelby Miller, RHP, St. Louis Cardinals: Drafted in the first round in 2009 from high school in Brownwood, Texas. Miller has a mid-to-upper-90s fastball, a terrific curve, a promising change, and superb command for a power pitcher. 2.47 ERA with a 119/28 K/BB in 91 innings for High-A Palm Beach and Double-A Springfield. Age 20. Major League ETA: 2012.

Carlos Martinez, RHP, St. Louis Cardinals: Signed out of the Dominican Republic in 2010. 2.42 ERA with 57/18 K/BB in 45 innings between Low-A Quad Cities and High-A Palm Beach, 31 hits allowed, 1.86 GO/AO. Dominated the Midwest League with upper-90s fastball and highly-promising curveball and changeup, earning a recent promotion to the Florida State League. Number One starter ceiling and an elite prospect. Age 19. Major League ETA: 2013.

THE BATMAN
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the entire time."
Twitter|Google+

by CodyG on Jul 7, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

2012 is next year!

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jul 7, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

according to the Mayan's

we should get next season in. I hope we have Albert.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 7, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Boner post...

+1

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our close rooms...the game of ball is glorious." Whitman

by pattimagee on Jul 7, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

My favorite part (and I'm assuming Az's) on Miller:
Outstanding mound presence. Just a bullet-throwing robot out there that works at the same pace throughout the game while showing no emotion or reactions to questionable calls, poor defense, or his own mistakes.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 7, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Does anyone have a full scouting report on Rosenthal yet?

I can chime in a little with what I’ve seen of him in two starts this year.

THE BATMAN
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the entire time."
Twitter|Google+

by CodyG on Jul 7, 2011 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Meme-worthy?

“Just a bullet-throwing robot out there”

by BCinVA on Jul 7, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

tmi, dude

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 7, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think this may be correct

although I do think that Martinez is more likely to get hurt due to his smaller frame and the fact that Miller’s mechanics seem to be flawless.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 7, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

I haven't heard anything bad about Martinez's mechanics

the only thing I’ve heard is that he throws hard with ease.

THE BATMAN
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the entire time."
Twitter|Google+

by CodyG on Jul 7, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't say anything about Martinez's mechanics

I said Miller’s have been described as “flawless” by a number of scouts. Miller is 6’4", 220 as well. Martinez is around 6’0" 170 or so, hence the Pedro comparisons.

They are both great prospects, but if you’re giving the edge to Martinez in terms of stuff (which is a bit dubious, honestly, they both have great stuff), I’m going to give the edge to Miller in terms of build and mechanics.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 7, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Both have very high ceilings, picking on build seems fair to me.

I really hope he can be one of the next smaller aces in baseball like pedro and lincecum.

THE BATMAN
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the entire time."
Twitter|Google+

by CodyG on Jul 7, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I actually don't think Miller's ceiling is as high as some do

but I think he’s VERY likely to be a 3-4 WAR pitcher. I’d probably rather have a guy who’s 75% likely to be Matt Cain than 25% likely to be Tim Lincecum.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 7, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

a guy who tops out at 5-6 WAR is a high ceiling IMO.

I’m not expecting the second coming of roger clemens.

THE BATMAN
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the entire time."
Twitter|Google+

by CodyG on Jul 7, 2011 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not trying to call out fourstick or anything, but this seemed as good a place as any to wonder out loud

Anybody know of a good, detailed study that shows that smaller pitchers are actually a higher injury risk? I’ve always been curious about this.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 7, 2011 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

same,

I found this by project prospect
and this by a sports medicine site.

THE BATMAN
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the entire time."
Twitter|Google+

by CodyG on Jul 7, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

err the second one is on pitching MOUND height

my bad.

THE BATMAN
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the entire time."
Twitter|Google+

by CodyG on Jul 7, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes

But this is also one of the reasons why people think that taller pitchers hold up better — I can’t find the article I’m looking for, but it has something to do with the ratio of arm and leg length with the same size pitching mound. A taller pitcher has less rotation in relation to the mound than a shorter one.

The study I’m thinking of talked a lot about Barry Zito and some computer modeling of mechanics.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 7, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting that the first one found so little correlation

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 7, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

here's a SABR article that looks promising after a quick read through

http://sabr.org/drupal/node/3080

THE BATMAN
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the entire time."
Twitter|Google+

by CodyG on Jul 7, 2011 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

and a david cameron BP article as well

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2064

THE BATMAN
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the entire time."
Twitter|Google+

by CodyG on Jul 7, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

this isn't so much as a study, more of a questioning of popular ideas type of article.

THE BATMAN
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the entire time."
Twitter|Google+

by CodyG on Jul 7, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

didn't see anything in a brief scholarly review of ebsco

but I didn’t devote much time to it either.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jul 7, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

this one has a lot of data to read through, it's one i'd reccommend giving your time to if you

if interested.

THE BATMAN
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the entire time."
Twitter|Google+

by CodyG on Jul 7, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I'm going it through it (not reading it all, but scanning and skimming at the moment)

It doesn’t look like there’s much statistically significant evidence for pitcher durability with relation to height, so far.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 7, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

It seems (if I'm reading it right) to show a decent correlation between taller pitches and becoming major league starters

One wonders how much of that would be due to teams assuming that short guys should be moved to the bullpen and not giving them the chance to start.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 7, 2011 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Anecdotally, which isn't scientific at all obviously

If you look at the most durable pitchers throughout the last 50 years or so, most of them have been over 6’ tall and have had a good size frame.

Now, obviously there are issues with selection bias (bigger pitchers get more chances as minor leaguers than smaller pitchers).

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 7, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I'm largely wondering how much selection bias comes into it

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 7, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would guess quite a bit

But the glaring exceptions make you wonder — if shorter pitchers were really good, they should get more chances. It’s not like guys like Pedro or Billy Wagner were getting ignored because they were short.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 7, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

It makes sense to me that shorter pitchers would always be at something of a disadvantage

so it makes sense they’d be represented less. But, it could also be one of those inefficiencies where the market undervalues them more than it should. Wasn’t there a boom in short running backs in the NFL recently because a few teams realized they could be a lot more successful than was generally thought? Could have just been a weird year, but I find it interesting to think about.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 7, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lincecum kinda blows the whole thing outta the water.

5’11 and 165. But then again, they don’t call him The Freak for nothing.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 7, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I see you covered that below.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 7, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well. . .

this is one of those “so much random variation” things to which fourstick refers.

Of course, it’s not like Lincecum has thrown even a thousand innings in the majors yet, so that is a case study that has not yet been written. Maybe he’s Warren Spahn, maybe he’s Mark Fidyrich.

The interesting question, to me is whether there is so much “random variation” (i.e. durability/elasticity of arms, stamina, etc.) that it would be pointless to control for height.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jul 7, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

true. he seems to be more of an outlier

than a mean. I forgot that he hadn’t been in the majors that long. seems longer than that.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 7, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also I wonder how much of it is just that taller pitchers tend to be better from the get-go

Longer arms, bigger muscles, etc.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 7, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

There's so much random variation that it's hard to tell.

Plus, the amount of variables from Subject A to Subject Z would be very hard to control for.

One thing that I do know — it takes less effort for a taller pitcher (longer arm, longer arc of a throwing motion) to throw in the upper 90’s than a shorter pitcher.

No different than the use of a longer shaft on your driver helps you hit the ball farther with the same golf swing.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 7, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Assuming you're using the proper technique

and facing the club up, that is.

Same goes for having the proper throwing motion that maximizes the ratio of velocity and arc in the throwing motion. For example — if you have a 6’4" Tim Lincecum and a 5’11" Tim Lincecum, the 6’4" version would throw harder than the shorter version, if all else is kept the same, just due to the physics of motion.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 7, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

And that brings up another question in my mind

If Carlos Martinez were tall, would he through like Strasburg? Like Chapman? Would he still be a greater injury risk? Not from height, but from throwing at a speed that is pushing the boundaries of the bell curve.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 7, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

How much more

oomph does 2-3 inches in height generate on a fastball?

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jul 7, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

But

there are just too many variables to consider when trying to figure out how anybody can chuck a baseball 95+. Height is just one of them.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jul 7, 2011 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, who knows

Also, it’s not like height is the only factor in arm strength, muscle mass, reflexes, ability to repeat good mechanics, conditioning, etc. etc. etc.
I’m actually pretty surprised that the sabr.org study found almost nothing. I would have thought there’d be something. But it could be that the difference is so small that teams are really over-doing it and should capitalize on it by giving more chances to shorter pitchers.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 7, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the biggest problem

is since every(body) is different, the only way you could measure it effectively would be to clone a 3-5 inch shorter or taller version of you and see who breaks down first all things being equal. I personally would thik that a taller individual is actually going to break down sooner than a smaller pitcher. My basis, big dogs tend to wear out faster than smaller ones.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jul 7, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, it's probably too complex to really get a satisfying result

Which, in my view, is an argument against favoring taller pitchers.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 7, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

If taller pitchers are just better than the result will bear that out and there's your justification for favoring them.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 7, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think I read somewhere

on this thread that Lincecum is 5’11? Not that they are similar but isn’t the cutoff for fighter pilots like 6’2" because after that height the body is not efficient? They can’t pull g’s as well, muscles have to work harder because you are heavier, etc.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jul 7, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

There are studies suggesting that shorter people live longer

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 7, 2011 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Although, as an interesting aside

Apparently greater body mass (basically being fatter) gives you a better chance of surviving certain chronic illnesses. I can’t remember which, or how many, and I’d ask my wife but she’s working overnight.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 7, 2011 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, this line of thinking makes sense to me

It sounds more or less reasonable to say: it would take the shorter pitcher more work to through 95 than a taller pitcher to throw the same speed.
I guess the next question would be: should we control for that if we were to study the relationship between height and health? If a short guy throws “proportional to his height”, for lack of a better way to say it, would he still be more of an injury risk?

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 7, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

FRICK

“throw”, not “through”.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 7, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

So, this is *the* doubleheader featuring a Cardinals minor-league affiliate to see for the season?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 7, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Let me know...

when spring training is over and the season begins. I’m psyched for this year!

You need to respect the baby... 'cause life is precious... and God... and the Bible.

by timetraveltome on Jul 7, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

He went from low-A to high-A, didn't he.

Having my plans to see him in the Quad Cities foiled by his promotion, you’d think I could manage to remember that.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 7, 2011 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fun stuff.

You need to respect the baby... 'cause life is precious... and God... and the Bible.

by timetraveltome on Jul 7, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Happy Times.

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our close rooms...the game of ball is glorious." Whitman

by pattimagee on Jul 7, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 7, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Random question: what are the effects of taking someone off of the 40-man roster?

Do they have to clear waivers? Does it affect their status vis-a-vis reaching (minor league) free agency/arbitration? Are there rules about being unable to be put a player back on the 40-man within a certain amount of time since being taken off?

In other words, are there any downsides other than not having that player immediately available for the major league club?

by bailorg on Jul 7, 2011 11:46 AM EDT reply actions  

Well, there is the dowry to consider...

If you lack the cows and/or goats to offer…. you will be shamed in the eyes of the other teams.

You need to respect the baby... 'cause life is precious... and God... and the Bible.

by timetraveltome on Jul 7, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

I doubt the cow will clear waivers...

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our close rooms...the game of ball is glorious." Whitman

by pattimagee on Jul 7, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

cows don't clear much

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 7, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

or anywhere near them

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 7, 2011 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes he has to clear waivers.

After that all the rules about “outrighting”, DFA, etc. all apply.

by Ghostrider520 on Jul 7, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Are you referring only to major leagers

who are on the 40 man?

If it’s a minor leager, you’re just exposing him to the rule 5 draft next year or something, assuming he’s got the minor league service time?

by sdrone on Jul 7, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you take a minor-league player off of the 40-man

he also has to clear waivers.

That’s how we lost Blake King to the Astros earlier this year.

by Ghostrider520 on Jul 7, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wrote a haiku for the game last night

The Cards went down 8
Cruz, Theriot, and Jay hit
Tied, hearbreak! A loss

"I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs or insanity for everyone, but they've always worked for me." -Hunter S. Thompson

by cardinalswsbound on Jul 7, 2011 12:56 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Why, oh why, do "sports analysts/journalists" continue to say that Albert injured his wrist?

it’s not a big deal, just inaccurate

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jul 7, 2011 1:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

The Internet's #1 St. Louis Cardinals blog.
Yahoo_full_count

Managers

Jack_benny__1__small DanUpBaby

Editors

Bendermad_small azruavatar

Trigun_001_small the red baron

Images_small tom s.

Authors

1989_bgh_cropped_small bgh

Valverde_medium_small vivaelpujols