Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Devils Beat Rangers, Head To Stanley Cup Finals

Colby trade leviathon

Well. Apparently we traded Colby Rasmus. Who saw that coming?


I haven't been in the daily threads much this week, but from a cursory look last night, I noticed that the response to this trade, both in this blog and the wider baseball community, seems to be overwhelmingly negative from the Cardinals' point of view. What bothered me a little bit about much of the analysis of the deal, however, is the overwhelming presence of a great deal of narrative over actual nitty-gritty. As a scientist, I get concerned when I read potentially loaded statements about "trading 3 years of a cost-controlled centre fielder for rentals of a starting pitcher and a righty reliever, plus a few years of a LOOGY". I don't think it tells you a great deal about what's actually happened, and the reality is that the value of the deal is obviously entirely dependent on how good those individual pieces are.

What I'd like to do in this fanpost is examine, in as dispassionate a way as possible, each individual aspect of this trade; I'll try largely to use the concept of "surplus value", that is, the value of each piece in the trade, minus the payroll liabilities that they each entail. Obviously, there's a lot of guesstimation involved here, and some pretty huge error bars, so rather than prejudging that this is a "good", "bad" or "indifferent" trade, I'll look at the best, worst and median-case scenarios for each player involved, and try to make some sort of conclusion at the end of it all. I'll be using wins above replacement (FanGraphs WAR) and various projections/predictions/guesses of value to try to put a dollar amount on each asset in the trade; for reference, the cost of 1 WAR on the free agent market at present is approximately $4m, give or take.

Before I move onto that, I think I should just underline my thoughts on a wider sense relating to this deal. I'm not, frankly, a big TLR fan. For most of the time I've followed this team, I've considered him an average manager, at best (in a field of major league managers which often resembles a tallest midget contest). I thought that the various machinations of his apparent distaste for Colby have depressed his value significantly, and, as Dan pointed out yesterday in his front page post, he simply hasn't done his job very well (in terms of working with, not against, the players he's provided with). Regardless of the merits of Mozeliak's trade, LaRussa comes out of this even worse in my eyes. Frankly, I hope he's gone next year.

Full disclosure time - my initial impressions when I heard about the trade (I hadn't read VEB or any other analysis at this point) was that it was a slightly better haul than I thought we might get. I've been a big Jackson fan for a year or two and thought he was a potential FA target next year, I recall Marc Rzepczynski as one of the Jay's top 10 prospects a year or two ago, and thought Dotel had some value as a throw-in. I definitely thought it was probably a better deal, initially, the alternative offer from the Rays centred around Jeff Niemann.

In any case, let's move onto looking at the individual aspects of the trade:


1. The throw-in pieces.


I'll get this out of the way first. From our point of view, we did a bit of addition by subtraction by moving Brian Tallet back to his old team, dumping the apparently more or less finished Trever Miller, and giving up AAAA pitcher PJ Walters. We also managed to do a bit of subtraction by addition, picking up the husk of Corey Patterson, who will hopefully be marginalised the rest of the way as a 4th or 5th OF and who likely isn't any real upgrade over Adron Chambers as a back CF. All in all, I'm not sure these parts of the deal are worth any analysis - basically, all these players are basically worthless at this point (give or take) and these moves were simply to save a few hundred K and free up some roster space. So far, so insignificant.


2. Losing Colby this year


The hardest part, perhaps, of the deal to quantify. Colby's current value remains quite high, despite a difficult season. 

He's been worth 8.3 WAR thus far in his career over about two and a half full seasons, good for somewhere around 3.5 WAR per season, which probably remains his current true-talent level, difficult as it is to judge (recent slump included, he's on pace for about 2.5 WAR this year, but with a slightly unlucky BABIP). His career line of .258/.333/.442 is slightly above average (thanks to a decent walkrate and some power), a .336 wOBA and 109 wRC+. His baserunning has been good (both to my eyes and to all the stats) but that's included in his overall FanGraphs WAR total. He's shown improvements in his K rate this year (it's down to 20%) and, most importantly, he's not quite 25 years old yet, so it's possible he can tweak and improve his hitting as he moves into his peak years. 

His batted ball profile hasn't changed much over time, despite hitting more infield pop-ups this year (although combined with a reduction in K%, that still suggests he's simply having the same problems making solid contact he always has), so most of his "projection" in terms of hitting comes from his pedigree as a guy who saw success at a young age in the minors. It's important to note, however, that he was in fact never a dominant hitter in his way up the system, his big breakout year coming with a big 2007 in Springfield (AA) where he was arguably helped by playing in a ballpark that is hugely beneficial to left-handed hitters, to a still highly-impressive 152wRC+ (.932 OPS). However, he was slightly below average as a hitter in 2008 in Memphis, so, as I stated, perhaps his upside may be a little over-stated and it down to his seductive toolset and young age as much as any perceived super-prospect production.

Much of his value was estimated to be tied up in his fielding, as a speedy, smooth CF (the toughest OF position and third behind C and SS on the defensive spectrum). However, he's not quite lived up to expectations, putting up a strong first year according to UZR and then falling away to negative scores in his next two years. There is a massive error bar on UZR data, and it seems reasonable to take it with a pinch of salt, but I'd say (based on my own observations - good routes, good speed, error prone, poor arm) his final UZR figure of -3.6 runs per year (which equates, with the large error bars, to somewhere between "slightly above average" and "poor"), and FanGraphs fan scouting report (which aggregates fans' votes of a player's defensive production) and the Dewan plus/minus system. As UZR is incorporated into his WAR figure so far, let's say he's an average to slightly below-average CF, with the possibility that his slight struggles this year may mean that his skills may regress in future years, but with a high chance that he'll be average-ish or a little below going forward.

So, what have we traded away?

Assuming Rasmus is around a 3.5 WAR player right now, and assuming Jon Jay is about league average (or a tick above), the dropoff from trading Rasmus and replacing him with Jay is about 1.5 wins per year; pro-rated over the rest of the season, about half a win. However, we're also replacing Jay's production as a pretty regularly-playing 4th OF with some PAs from Corey Patterson (who sucks), Allen Craig (who is roughly equivalent in value to Jay) and perhaps more playing time in either OF or 2B for Skip Schumaker (who's maybe only a 1 WAR guy). It's hard to forecast how that'll all pan out, but I'd say it's likely we're losing at least another half win there.

Overall, the likely cost in 2011 of losing Rasmus is -1 win.

BEST-CASE SCENARIO: 
Rasmus continues to scuffle, Jay continues to get a bit lucky, Craig and Berkman are healthy and can fill in the gap, Patterson barely plays, and the trade costs us 0.
WORST-CASE SCENARIO: 
Berkman's injury is more long-term, meaning the backup corps of Patterson and a smorgasbord of AAAA Memphis guys have to fill in some more time. Probably -1.5 to -2 wins.
MEDIAN CASE SCENARIO: 
As noted above, -1 win.


3. Losing Colby going forward


I decided to put this section here, as it hangs together reasonably well with section #2, although it's actually not relevant to the value we gain from this trade THIS year.

So what's our favourite smooth home run hitter going to do over the next three seasons? Well, based on the above, I'd say the most likely expectation for a guy with 3 years' service time is a slight improvement. He's moving to a tougher environment to hit in (the ALE) and will face the stacked RedSox, Yankees and Rays rotations frequently, but he's moving out of a seemingly toxic environment where he clearly wasn't happy, and, as previously noted, starts 2012 as a 25-year-old with significant tools. ZiPS projects a .338 wOBA for the rest of 2011, and it's hard to see him not bettering that in the forthcoming years. As a 3.5 WAR guy now, I'd say it's probably fair bet for him to add 0.5 WAR/yr.

So, overall, if we assume he figures things out to SOME extent, we can project something like 4 WAR next year, 4.5 WAR the year after, 5 WAR the year after that. On average, a 4.5 WAR CF for three years, or about 1 WAR/yr better than he has been so far - a moderate improvement for a young guy moving into his peak. That costs us 13.5 WAR in the next three years.

BEST CASE SCENARIO: 
From our point of view, the ideal thing now would be for Rasmus' relatively unimpressive defense to continue to be an issue, and for him not to figure things out as a hitter. The "not developing beyond what he is now" hypothesis. It's hard to see his skills regressing significantly, so a 3-3.5 WAR/yr guy he remains. That costs us about 10 WAR.
WORST CASE SCENARIO: 
His defense moves back to average or slightly better (he certainly has the tools to be worth a few runs above average) and his hitting tools begin to coalesce. The 152 wRC+ of his AA season seems unattainable, but if he can hit .276/.361/.498 as he did (luck-assisted) last year, without the elevated BABIP, he's a 5-6 WAR guy with decent CF defense and no health issues. That costs us a painful ~17 WAR.
MEDIAN CASE SCENARIO: 
As above; 4.5 WAR for 3 years = 13.5 WAR(ish).


4. The guys we've gained this year


I should start by saying that E-Jax is a good pitcher. Probably better than you thought, if you hadn't looked at his stats lately. The wild pitcher with good stuff but no clue how to use it of his early-20s Rays days seems a thing of the past; he's 28 years old, and has put up the following lines for the last 3 seasons:

2009: 214 IP, 3.62 ERA, 4.28 FIP, 4.32 xFIP. Good for 3.5 WAR in a tougher ALC with the Tigers.
2010: 209 IP, 4.47 ERA, 3.86 FIP, 3.71 xFIP. Good for 3.8 WAR with the D'Backs in the slightly easier NLW.
2011: 121 IP, 3.92 ERA, 3.21 FIP, 3.42 xFIP. Good for 3.0 WAR mostly with the WhiteSox.

His walkrate, K rate, and GB rate have all improved since before this period. He's now a guy with control that borders on the excellent (2.88 BB/9), good stuff (his fastball velocity is consistently within the top 10 in baseball, as far as starters are concerned) and a 47% GB rate. He's on track for a 4.5-5 WAR season, and has been about as valuable as Jaime Garcia so far. His ZiPS projection calls for a 3.94 FIP going forward (which I find hard to understand, as he's bettered that quite substantially in the last two years), and he's moving to a league where he can throw against the opposition pitcher.

If we assume Kyle McClellan is charitably a 1-WAR pitcher, and E-Jax is something like a 4 WAR true talent guy (both of which may slightly underestimate the impact of this move), we're looking at a roughly 1 WAR gain in the remaining 9 or 10 starts Jackson is likely to make.

BEST-CASE SCENARIO - 
Jackson pitches like he has in 2011 so far, finds a few more GB under Dave Duncan, and is worth 2 WAR over what KMac would've provided.
WORST-CASE SCENARIO - 
some bad starts/regression for Jackson and he's merely a 0.5 WAR upgrade.
MEDIAN CASE SCENARIO - 
as above; 1 WAR.

Marc Rzepczynski (let's just call him Scrabble from here on in...) is going to be our lefty reliever for the rest of the year, and has accumulated a 2.83 ERA supported by a 3.13 FIP doing that job in Toronto. As we saw on Thursday, he has a impressive stuff and a K rate over 8 for his career. His 2.64 career FIP (2.84 xFIP) and 9.6K/9IP vs LHB suggests that he'll be an impact reliever if used mainly against lefties, but unlike even the best years of Trever Miller's career, he can also get righties out - an unlucky 4.69 FIP is underlain by a much more promising 4.13 xFIP. He's been worth 0.6 WAR in his 40-odd IP so far, and promises to be worth another 0.5 WAR going forward. With no replacement-level lefties on the staff this year (both Miller and Tallet were below replacement-level, and project to continue to be so) I don't think it's implausible he's actually a 1 WAR upgrade.

BEST-CASE SCENARIO - 
Scrabble tears it up in the pen and Miller continues to prove he's lost it, putting up a 5-ish FIP. The upgrade is nearer 2 WAR
WORST-CASE SCENARIO - 
Scrabble doesn't get enough innings to make a huge impact, and Miller bounces back a little in Toronto, showing he's not QUITE done yet. Still a likely gain of 0.5 WAR.
MEDIAN CASE SCENARIO - 
as above; 1 WAR.

Last but not least, the moves at the back of the pen are worth noting. The acquisition of E-Jax moves KMac back into a relief role, where he's put up an xFIP of approximately 4 in the last three years, replacing the entirely fungible Brian Tallet. Of somewhat greater value is the fact that McClellan can pitch to lefties, with a platoon split that is essentially non-existent. This makes him potentially useful if used correctly (and yes, with TLR that's a big IF) when contrasted with guys like Jason Motte and Mitchell Boggs. In a 7th or 8th inning game facing lefty-righty-lefty, especially if scrabble has been burnt, KMac is likely a better bet than either of our current set-up men.

Dotel is a minimal addition in real terms, bumping the soft-tossing PJ Walters off the roster, although he really should be the last righty out of the pen OR used specifically as a ROOGY. A somewhat wild journeyman with extreme flyball tendencies (do I have to duck if I invoke the phrase "rich man's Miguel Batista"?), Dotel's hovered around an unexciting FIP of 4 for the past couple of years, but he does have one redeeming feature - he's murder on right-handed hitters. A career 12K/9IP vs righties, and better than a 5:1 K:BB ratio this year, means his career and season FIPs vs RHB are both well below 3. As long as he never faces a lefty, Dotel is a useful addition in that he's probably the best pitcher on the staff at killing righties in a high-leverage situation.

The likely gain from these two minor bullpen additions is likely about 0.5 WAR over the rest of the season - they're both assets if used well, but could be a detriment if they used injudiciously.

BEST-CASE SCENARIO: 
Dotel only ever faces righties, and is immediately pulled for KMac or Scrabble in a high-leverage lefty situation. KMac isn't used as a primary set-up guy, but handles the long-man role and is used now and again against lefties in later innings. A possible gain of 1 WAR with a prevailing wind.
WORST-CASE SCENARIO: 
Either guy becomes the go-to 8th inning guy, moving Boggs, Motte and Lynn (all of whom are as good or better than KMac and Dotel) to lower-leverage work. A potential LOSS of value here, let's say -0.5 WAR.
MEDIAN CASE SCENARIOas above; 0.5 WAR.


5. 2011 Trade Impact


The value of the trade, at least in the immediate, is that it likely improves the team in the short-term, in a close pennant race, between two fairly evenly matched teams. As I mentioned earlier, one win (or 1WAR) is worth roughly $4m, give or take, judging by recent free agent contracts. That said, not every win (or WAR) is born equally. 

Given the relative scarcity of occasions in baseball where 1 win is genuinely important (i.e. in a tight playoff race), and given the huge (apparently $20m+ in revenue, on average) benefits of reaching the post-season, wins become much more valuable in situations like the one we find ourselves in now. One could argue that the fact we hope/expect to contend in 2012 and 2013 slightly reduces that (i.e. we're not quite as "all-in" as the Brewers) but essentially the value of any wins added or subtracted right now is magnified. 

What WOULD you pay to add a win in a tight playoff race? $6m? $8m? I honestly can't answer that question, so, in a wild gambit that may undermine my entire thesis here, I've decided to include both those options, along with $4m, in evaluating the 2011 impact.  You can go with whatever you think is most appropriate; personally, I can envisage each win being worth at least double in a tight playoff race.

BEST-CASE SCENARIO:
0 WAR (losing Rasmus) + 2 WAR (Jackson) + 2 WAR (Rzepczinski) + 1 WAR (Dotel & KMac to the pen) = 5 WAR
Overall Surplus Value = $20m ($4m/win), $30m (6m/win), or $40m (8m/win).
WORST-CASE SCENARIO:
-2 WAR (losing Rasmus) + 0.5 WAR (Jackson) + 0.5 WAR (Rzepczinski) - 0.5 WAR (Dotel & KMac to the pen) = -1.5 WAR
Overall Surplus Value = $-6m ($4m/win), $-9m (6m/win), or $-12m (8m/win).
MY PREDICTED MEDIAN:
-1 WAR (losing Rasmus) + 1 WAR (Jackson) + 1 WAR (Rzepczinski) + 0.5 WAR (Dotel & KMac to the pen) = +1.5 WAR
Overall Surplus Value = $6m ($4m/win), $9m (6m/win), or $12m (8m/win).

Overall, the most likely outcome (broadly speaking) if we're valuing our wins at this point in the year about 1.5 to 2x as important as any other win, is that the trade adds about $10m of value this year.

 

6. Going forward - The arbitration question

 

One of the principle values of this trade, as we've discussed in some of the other threads, is the possibility of yielding some draft picks from two of the players involved, namely Jackson and Dotel. Both currently qualify as Type-B free agents, and so if they're offered arbitration over the winter and turn it down, the Cardinals net a supplemental draft pick (probably within the 40-50 range in the draft) in the 2012 MLB Player Draft, which is a valuable commodity (current top-10 Cards prospect Tyrrel Jenkins was a supplemental pick, as was current Cardinal Lance Lynn).

Using the reverse-engineered Elias Rankings from MLBTR, we see that Dotel is comfortably inside the Type-B bracket in either league this year, with an outside shot at type-A (which won't happen unless he gets some more save opportunities). Jackson looks a little vulnerable; he's a Type-B, but the curious (read: stupid) way the Elias rankings works puts him only near the bottom. However, his Type-B status is almost certainly safe; because the Elias rankings use stats from the last three years, they're currently including the tail end of his ugly 2008 with the Rays. So long as he matches or out-performs the August/September where he put up an ERA north of 5 (although he did, admittedly, pick up 7 pitcher wins) he should make it.

Jackson is a no-brainer to offer arbitration to, as there is zero chance he accepts it (barring an injury requiring major surgery). He's a Boras client and is due a big pay-day next year. Unless we intend to extend him (which may prove costly), we're likely to trade him up for a draft pick come the winter.

Dotel is a harder one to figure. As noted above, he's only a marginally useful reliever these days, but as a guy with a significant platoon split, arguably he still has utility. However, he's 37 and turns 38 before next season. His fastball, which remains his go-to pitch, has lost a bit of zip in the last three years, going from a 93mph pitch with the ability to touch 96 and 97, to being a strictly low-90s offering. He has a $3.5m option with a 750k buyout; I'd imagine the Cardinals might exercise the buyout and offer arbitration. He's unlikely to see a significant increase in salary from the $2.75m he's making this year, so even if he DOES accept arbitration (quite possible) he won't earn much more than the $3.5m in total. 

All that said, he was briefly a major league closer (TM) last year in Pittsburgh, and it's not impossible that he thinks a 2-year deal is possible or that he'll get north of $4m to pitch somewhere as a set-up man. On balance, I think offering arbitration is the right move for the Cardinals - at worst, they'll be paying somewhere between $3 and 4m for a righty specialist who, if used exclusively against righties, is probably just about worth that salary. It's also possible that the Cardinals come to a gentleman's agreement with Dotel, buying him out (netting him $750k) and allowing him to look for a $3m+ deal elsewhere (which makes him more money than his option year would), in exchange for the assurance that he'll decline arbitration.

How much is type-B compensation worth? As a very rough estimate, Victor Wang has shown that the average supplemental pick provides somewhere very roughly in the region of $3m of surplus value. Given that the Cardinals recent drafting record is fairly good, and we have a history of paying slightly-above-average with regard to slot prices, it's possible that such a pick is worth a little more to us. Shall we say $4m?

MOST LIKELY SCENARIO: 
Jackson is offered arby and accepts. Dotel is either allowed to walk, or ends up back here for $3m or so. I guess this happens maybe 50% of the time.
NET GAIN = $4m
BEST-CASE SCENARIO: 
Both end up type-Bs, both decline arbitration (perhaps with the gentleman's agreement with Dotel), and we net two draft picks. Rough stab in the dark, I'd say this happens 30% of the time.
NET GAIN = $8m
WORST-CASE SCENARIO: 
If Jackson gets unfeasibly unlucky with his W/L record and ERA, or gets injured, it's just about possible he slips off the type-B map. In this instance, the Cardinals gain no picks and could end up (over)paying Dotel $3-4m into the bargain. I guess this could happen 20% of the time.
NET GAIN = Diddly squat


7. The Colby Tax


Or - what the ultimate cost of three lost Rasmus years is. Assuming the $/WAR value sticks around $4m for the next three years, and assuming the WAR totals I discussed in part 2, we can take a rough stab at this surplus value we're losing. 

We also have to deduct what Colby will cost, however, as we can use that money to pay for other assets. Looking at a few recent arbitration cases we can make a pretty fair guess. Ryan Ludwick is a good comp in terms of both his production in the three years leading up to his arbitration seasons, and in terms of what I think Colby might get (although Ludwick avoided arby in each year, agreeing a 1-year deal with the Cards or Padres each time). Ludwick made $3.7m/$4.5m/$7m. I'm assuming Colby's position, youth and top prospect billing may mean a slight uptick on these numbers, so let's assume Rasmus costs $4m/$6m/$8m in arbitration for a total of $18m.

So, with reference to this putative arby salary scheme, and Colby's projected values from part 2, we lose:

MEDIAN VALUE:
-13.5WAR = $-54m + $18m (salary) = $-36m
BEST CASE:
-10WAR = $-40m + $18m (salary) = $-22m
WORST CASE:
-17WAR = $-68m + $18m (salary) = $-50m


8. Scrabbulous!


So, the balance of the trade really comes down to what we can expect from our new left-handed setup guy/possible future starter. The crux of the matter, really, is whether he IS a starter, and exactly how good he can be.

Marc Rzepczynski is, as discussed above, already a good left-handed reliever. He has good peripheral numbers, good results this year, and is capable of getting righties out as well as being tough on lefties. Also, he's right up Dave Duncan's street, throwing a wicked slider and a nice sinker, both of which generate lots of groundballs. 

However, the problem with non-closers (and all but the most elite relievers, in general) is that they're just not worth as much as everyday players or starting pitchers, as they only throw 60 or 70-odd innings most years. We might expect to see some improvements from Scrabble, and fairly elite reliever numbers going forwards - he's 25, he's already very good with less than 2 years major league experience, and he fits into our staff very well, but in terms of value he's unlikely to greatly exceed 1 WAR/yr as a lefty set-up guy.

All that said, I'm not sure there's anything yet to say that he can't make it as a starter. The groundball rate and the ability to pitch to righties impress greatly (his FIP and xFIP, as noted previously, are in the low-4s against RHB, and he has a serviceable changeup that, if he can develop it a little and rely on it more, could make for a nice three-pitch combo). Also, he already has some success - in 23 starts in the daunting environment of the AL East, a 3.94 xFIP (FIP, with HR/FB rate normalised to the league average) underlies slightly less impressive FIP and ERA numbers. Moving to the NL, under the tutelage of Dave Duncan, and avoiding having nearly a quarter of your starts against the Yankees (as has been the case so far) may help. There's also been talk from Goold and others that some in the org see him as a possible starter long-term, and he had some significant success starting in the minors (when he was one of the Jay's top 10 prospects), putting up sub-2.60FIPs right the way up the minors in 2008 and 2009 and moving quickly through their system.

On the other side of the coin, he's never thrown more than 160IP in a year, will have been a reliever for all of 2011, and Dave Duncan seems to be of the opinion that the guy's a reliever. His arm action is slightly funky; he's big enough at 6-3 and 200+ lbs to handle a starter's workload, but he is slightly round-arm with his delivery and one wonders whether his success against righties will sustain once teams have seen him more than a couple of times, unless Duncan can refine his approach and arsenal.

The 3.94 xFIP he's put up as a starter (and 1.6 WAR in 23 starts), and the fact his results and approach seem to be improving as he moves into his peak years, suggest that the guy can probably be a 2 WAR pitcher in the rotation in the NL Central, albeit not a big innings eater. With some improvement in terms of his efficiency and approach, 3 WAR (which I guess makes him the mythical "3rd starter" Jaime Garcia was always projected as, for a contending team, until the cutter turned him into a legit #1 or 2) seems within reach. It just depends whether the Cardinals give him the chance to do that.

The final point worth noting is that Scrabbulous has 4 years of team control remaining, one more year than Colby and that year will be for the league minimum, before he hits arbitration in 2013. We'll have him between ages 26 (next month) and 30.

BEST CASE:
 Scrabble turns starter next year, stretching out to ~160-odd IP and puts up decent 3rd starter numbers, earning 2 WAR. Three more (hopefully injury-free) years of similar production (2.5 WAR, 3 WAR, 3 WAR) take him up to age 30 and free agency. Total of 10.5 WAR
WORST CASE: 
Scrabble remains in the pen, perhaps after a failed attempt at starting, and puts up solid LOOGY/set-up guy numbers for four years, perhaps with some injury niggles. Total of 4 WAR
MEDIAN SCENARIO: 
Hard to peg this one, as it's probably more likely he's the best or worst case; he's either a competent starter or he isn't. Let's assume he stays in the pen this year and next, and then has 3 years as a competent, basically league-average, starter. 1 WAR next year plus 3 years of 2 WAR/yr as a starter = Total of 7 WAR
As with Rasmus, there's an arby cost. Assuming he's a reliever, or a reliever who later morphs into a tweener starter, a probable decent comp is the Cubs' Sean Marshall - $1m/$1.5m/$3m; roughly $5-6m. I'd bump the total up to maybe $10m if he starts for his last two years. If he's a starter, The Giants' Jonathan Sanchez is probably a good comp - $2.1m/$4.8m in years one and two, and next year he probably gets in the region of $7m. Let's call it $14m. So:

BEST CASE VALUE: 
10.5 WAR = $42m - $14m = $28m
WORST CASE VALUE: 
4 WAR = $16m - $5m = $11m
MEDIAN CASE VALUE: 
7 WAR = $28m - $8m = $18m


9. Conclusions


Well, I guess I should bring this very dry but hopefully fairly informative fanpost grinding to a shuddering halt. I think there's no question that we sold somewhat low on Colby, but I think (having considered the individual parts of the trade in some detail) the actual facts (as far as we know and can predict them) suggest it's not quite the trainwreck that it's been framed as, both here at VEB and by the media in general. The feeling that trading a possible 5-6 WAR CF coming into his peak years for a slightly disparate and potentially risky package is moving a potential cornerstone for some question-marks is well founded, but perhaps a little overly emotive. There's enough value in this package if some of the following pan out:

- genuine improvement in 2011 (and I haven't even touched on the value of having E-Jax over a lesser pitcher like Lohse in a potential playoff battle).

- Rzepczinski's been well-scouted, fits in with the org, and turns into a worthwhile starter (again, I haven't touched on the fact that this probably keeps Lance Lynn in the bullpen, where he's excelled and where I feel he may actually belong, long-term, but it certainly saves us on potentially expensive free agent deals and risky Carp extensions).

- E-Jax and Dotel turn into supplemental picks.

- Colby doesn't improve significantly over the next three years.

Simply looking at my rough, back-of-a-cigarette-packet calculations above, and assuming the Cards are prepared to pay a not-unreasonable $8m/win for the rest of the year, the following surplus values/losses can be attributed to the following possibilities:


ALL THE MEDIAN VALUES (what I think is most likely to happen): total surplus loss of just $2m
ALL THE BEST-CASE SCENARIOS: total surplus value gain of $54m
ALL THE WORST-CASE SCENARIOS: total surplus loss of $51m


I'm sure you can all get your geek rocks off by playing around with the values I've worked out for each possible scenario (think the Cardinals wouldn't want to pay $8m per win this year? Think Rasmus is a lock to be a 6 WAR guy going forward? Simply change those bits of each formula to your own volition, et voila!), but if we make all the assumptions I've made, get fair projected value out of the guys we traded for in 2011, get four seasons of good relief and/or competent starting pitching from Scrabble, a draft pick from Jackson, and Colby turns into a merely very good player rather than a bona-fide star, as you can see, it's not the disaster that perhaps we Rasmus-lovers all want to frame it as.




Comment 46 comments  |  24 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

TL

DR.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 29, 2011 5:51 PM EDT reply actions   2 recs

it's ok i've read it and i can summarize...

“TLR IS A BIG FAT JERK HE HAS RUINED THIS TEAM FOREVER”. you’re welcome, VEB. now please rec this post and discuss.

"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5

"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.

by Tudor's Electric Fan on Jul 29, 2011 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

seriously though

good, rational look at this trade. i think i speak for everyone when i say thanks for depriving us of our right to be angry and hurt you insensitive jerk!

"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5

"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.

by Tudor's Electric Fan on Jul 29, 2011 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jesus fuck dude

Free Tyler Greene - Secretary of WAR and defense.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 29, 2011 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought he "wept"?

maybe that was the Rated-R Gospel.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 30, 2011 6:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm waiting for the lightning bolt!

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 31, 2011 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

As ever, straight, no chaser to the point. Many thanks for the effort. . .

An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.

HL Mencken

by akaitori on Aug 8, 2011 3:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

It really does depend on Marc Rzepczynski. Does he stay a LOOGY (well, TLR isn’t showing signs of using him as a LOOGY, having him throw 2 innings the other day) or become a starter?

But I think the rest of the season now really rests on Berkman’s shoulders. This is a terrible lineup without him. Holliday and Pujols can’t carry the team if the people in front of them don’t get on base (Theriot, Patterson)

I shudder to think what next year could be like, without Berkman and Pujols possibly. Or if they both come back, there won’t be any money to improve at areas…

by DiscoJer on Jul 29, 2011 7:00 PM EDT reply actions  

rec'd for work.

i have literally nothing to add. it is what it is, a bad trade at first glance, a bad trade at second glance, and a slightly less bad trade at third glance. a huge, huge risk that hangs in the balance of how scrabble performs.

great work, brit.

not the president of the -0.2 WAR AAAA shortstop club

by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 29, 2011 7:15 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

can you recalculate everything under the assumption that patterson gets a stupid amount of playing time?

seriously, why did they have to throw in patterson (i know depth blah blah blah just hear me out)? it’s like trading in AA sobriety chips for self-respect, health, …and oh hey why not as an added bonus we throw in this MASSIVE BOTTLE OF WHISKEY IN A JUG MARKED “XXX”? sure, it’s kind of a patronizing tradeoff but you could probably still turn it around into a positive although THERE IS NO WAY YOU AREN’T GOING TO GET SHITFACED ON THAT WHISKEY THIS WEEKEND HOO BOY.

i guess i’m saying we should have an intervention with tony. his addiction to shitty veterans is ruining our relationship.

"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5

"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.

by Tudor's Electric Fan on Jul 29, 2011 7:30 PM EDT reply actions  

Heh. Agreed.

Patterson sucks, although if he’s used strictly as a backup (5th OF ideally) it doesn’t matter too much. It would help IMO if they’d got a shitty right-handed CF backup instead of a lefty. Patterson probably isn’t any worse than starting Adron Chambers of Skip Schumaker in CF, though.

And also bear in mind that we’re still waiting to see what happens when Craig is back full-time; hopefully, he’ll play RF whenever Berkman can’t and we won’t see much of Patterson at all. That’s the hope I’m clinging to, anyhow. The only annoying thing is the Punto injury – a bit like last year, when a few key players can’t play for whatever reason, it becomes harder and harder to limit the playing time of Skip, Theriot and the other crappy players on the roster. At least with Punto healthy, he can play 2B full-time and Skippy can basically marginalise Patterson into the last bat off the bench.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 30, 2011 6:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

The timing of the trade was horrible. Berkman is hurting and Craig is out, thus Patterson (or Schu) has to start in RF rather than be the projected 4th (or 5th) OF.

by stlfan on Jul 30, 2011 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

wow...

bravo! this is one of the best fanposts I’ve read… I had came to many of tthe same conclusions, good to see this backing up the hypotheses.

my last avatar was traded.

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 29, 2011 7:43 PM EDT reply actions  

great post

I came to the same conclusion (tho down a different road) when I first heard of the trade. its a very myopic trade with a ton of risk after this year (mostly downside). however, this isnt necessarily a bad thing if you look at it from a management/owner perspective. I have 2 additional variables I would like to throw in for discussion: 1. what is the value of making the playoffs this year vs not making the playoffs this year? (Im not saying we wouldnt have made the playoffs with colby, but i do believe our chances have improved after the trade). 2. I feel that even if colby becomes a great player (5-6 WAR) with the blue jays, he never would achieve that level of success with the cards because of TLT. Right or wrong (mostly wrong), its his job until he quits or they get at least a sub-.500 season. Dont we have to discount the future value of colby with the cards because of TLR?

by schweaty on Jul 30, 2011 2:01 AM EDT reply actions  

I think I tried to include "value of making the postseason" in the fact that I valued wins in 2011 as being more valuable than wins generally

I’d say about double the price ($8m/WAR) would be fair value to pay in a close pennant race. All that said, the counter-argument is that, coming into 2011, we expected a tight playoff race in the NLC anyway, so one could argue the marginal value of each win we add now hasn’t changed hugely from the marginal value of each win at the start of the year, but broadly speaking I think the fact we now KNOW we’re in a playoff race amplifies the value a bit.

Obviously, the reason these wins are more valuable (as I noted) is the old adage “flags fly forever”, plus the very real economic benefit – the average post-season appearance is worth upwards of $20m in revenue. If we could GUARANTEE that trading Colby puts us in the post-season this year, it’s pretty much worth doing even if it doesn’t give us any long-term pieces to build with. However, I guess this move doesn’t guarantee anything – arguably it makes us maybe (note – number pulled out of ass) 10-20% or so more likely to make the post-season.

I also definitely agree with your second point, though I’d argue that (from an organisational standpoint) that’s more an argument to get rid of TLR than to trade Colby, but then again that opens up other questions – does that make Pujols less likely to stay? Is it even feasible, given DeWitt’s apparent relationship with TLR (platonic, with occasional no-ties sex)? I’m not sure I can even begin to answer those questions. All that said, I think Mo did a better job with this trade than perhaps I expected – at worst, it’s a small loss, on average. Hard to achieve much more than that when the manager of the team goes on the radio and basically reams the player for being uncoachable.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 30, 2011 6:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

i have to agree again

totally agree with the 10-20% number. you could also argue that the benefit of going to the playoffs this year could be offset by missing the playoffs the next 2 years because we gave away our talented cf’er, but it would be difficult to isolate the cause of missing the playoffs to just one player (too many variables involved in making or missing the playoffs)

i think the FO basically gave TLR and colby a little over a half a season to work out their shit, and when it didnt look like that was going to happen, they made lemonade out of lemons. in a very passive way, they did choose TLR over colby, but i dont think that was ever an actual scenario they considered. the reality for all the people screaming for TLR’s head is that legendary managers on competitive teams dont get fired. we are stuck with this guy until the cards start losing more than they win and nobody really wants that to happen. so, as fans, we have to make lemonade out of lemons too.

by schweaty on Jul 30, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Awesome post. even though they're believed to not be real prospects

I’m still holding out hope one of the players to be named later will have some value.

THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fan Club
Twitter|Google+|PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE!

by CodyG on Jul 30, 2011 10:50 AM EDT reply actions  

This is also true

at the very least, if you want to be anal about it, the cash/one C-level guy is probably worth the $2m “negative” I have for my median outcomes, so you could just about call this trade a push :-)…

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 30, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

I thought I heard we were getting $4 million or 3 prospects

If its $4 million then it says your trade is a wash with alsight bias to the upside. Further, this trade then makes the Furcal trade more meaningful so if you add the component parts of that trade to this one, then it will look better especially of you put a high vlaue on making/advancing into the playoffs.

In my mind if the value of each round of the playoffs is X dollars then the trade will have made a lot of sense at some point in Ocotber, we just don’t know yet.

Just win

by The Duke on Jul 31, 2011 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

I suppose I didn't take into account that we're paying Edwin Jackson ~3m the rest of the way as well

Not sure we’ll make the playoffs now though. 2.5 games back and I think the Brewers are still a better team.

And I totally agree about Furcal. In many ways, Mozeliak addressed our 3 biggest weaknesses – rotation, LOOGY and SS with his trades, so I guess you can’t argue too much with the team we have on the park this year now.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Aug 3, 2011 2:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

FWIW I believe the Jays have one of the deepest systems in baseball

even if all the guys on the list are outside their top 20, there’s still probably guys on that list better than players in our top 20. TBH I’d settle for a decent LOOGY prospect in AA. I don’t know their system well enough but I guess there’s a chance they have one. If Scrabble moves to the rotation we (YET AGAIN) will likely need two lefties next year from free agency.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 30, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

prospects are pretty unpredictable imo

the more you have the better your chances of some of them panning out

my last avatar was traded.

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 30, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice post.....

I’ve been saying since the day the trade when down that when you take the emotion out of the trade, you may not like it, but it probably isn’t that bad. The WAR traded, when valued in dollars, is probably going to even itself out fairly closely over time. The difference is, STL shifted that war to this year, and several years away, and took some away for the next 3 years.

I also think trades are hard to value b/c we’ll know in 3-4 years what most of the players are going to do, but what we don’t know is what they would have done had they stayed put. I really think this applies mostly to Colby.

by Stanley1 on Jul 30, 2011 3:37 PM EDT reply actions  

in the article that you read (I assume)
ALL THE MEDIAN VALUES (what I think is most likely to happen): total surplus loss of just $2m
ALL THE BEST-CASE SCENARIOS: total surplus value gain of $54m
ALL THE WORST-CASE SCENARIOS: total surplus loss of $51m

my last avatar was traded.

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2011 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

An excellent post

I really appreciate the analysis and thought. It helps me think through things.

Unfortunately, thinking through things has made me even more convinced this was a lousy trade. The mostly-break-even median net value is predicated on Scrabble becoming a good starter at some point combined with Colby becoming a slightly better CF as he enters his prime playing years.

A reliever (even one with a MiL starter track record) becoming a decent starter, let alone a league average one, is much less likely than a good, young, CF staying a good CF. So, it seems to me that the most-likely scenario should be weighted more toward the worst case.

I also think that given our division’s recent history and composition, marginal wins in future years will continue to meet the “more valuable than average” criterion. In other words, it seems reasonable to me to expect to keep on having tight races in the NL-Central. So, future loss of wins should probably be valued more highly (if not at the same rate as this year, then close).

So, even leaving aside the reason for the trade, it seems to me more likely to be a more serious losing transaction.

Play ball!

by IL and StL Fan on Jul 30, 2011 5:09 PM EDT reply actions  

Great post...

… IMO only one downside: I don’t see that you subtract Jay’s post-2011 value from the value lost from Rasmus. Ie, from the perspective of the team we’re concerned about Rasmus’ CF production over and above his replacement player’s CF production. You do that for 2011 but not for future years, or if you did I missed it. If Jay ends up 3.0-3.5 WAR going forward then this trade will likely be okay, probably even a win for us. If he regresses back to 1.5-2.0 WAR then it likely won’t.

The error bars are key. Rasmus’ have been huge, which (I think) is the main reason he was traded. But so far I haven’t seen anything that indicates to me that him being a 5.0-5.5 WAR player is at all likely. He didn’t come close to that during his breakout 2010 even with a .354 BABIP, and while he still has some time to improve he doesn’t have a ton and he’ll have to do it in a really tough division. He’s had 1500 ML ABs now, and so far he looks like a 3.0-3.5 WAR player (given neutral luck). I think Jay can manage something close to that.

Over the past year and a half Rasmus has created 5.5 WAR to Jay’s 3.4, but Rasmus has had 50% more ABs than Jay to do it (Jay’s also had a high BABIP, but with a higher LD% and MUCH higher GB%, lower K% and BB%). Unless Rasmus improves. Or Jay improves. Or one of them regresses.

I agree that Scrabble is a big question, but all of the uncertainty is on the upside. I think he can be a serviceable starter or slightly better. We could have a very young, very cheap rotation from 2013-2015, and those cost savings from not signing the Westbrooks and Lohses of the world need to be added on the Cards’ side of the ledger.

I still don’t like the trade b/c there are so many unknowns, but I agree that it’s defensible.

by kindred on Jul 30, 2011 9:31 PM EDT reply actions  

… IMO only one downside: I don’t see that you subtract Jay’s post-2011 value from the value lost from Rasmus. Ie, from the perspective of the team we’re concerned about Rasmus’ CF production over and above his replacement player’s CF production. You do that for 2011 but not for future years, or if you did I missed it.

You’re quite right, I didn’t. That was intentionl (if a little inconsistent) rather than an oversight, though, for two reasons:
1) The situation is very complex and I honestly thought it’d be too difficult exactly what’ll happen and wishcast all the possible scenarios for the next three years. We don’t even necessarily know who Colby’s backup will be next year (Jay, presumably) let alone the backup backups.

2) I’d have had to do the same thing in WAR terms with Scrabble. He actually likely isn’t a huge short-term upgrade over running out Lynn in the rotation, but again we dont know how the rotation will pay out vis a vis who Scrabble might be replacing. Do we say he’s gaining us 1 WAR or so over Lynn as a starter, 2 WAR over KMac, or do we assume he’s saving us $18m in Chris Carpenter options? Do we then include the cost of picking up a LOOGY next year in the debits column? I just don’t know how to work that out, and think doing so would detract from (rather than add to) what is already a bunch of calculations with MASSIVE error bars ($100m-ish in surplus value, according to my rough estimates!).

The error bars are key. Rasmus’ have been huge, which (I think) is the main reason he was traded. But so far I haven’t seen anything that indicates to me that him being a 5.0-5.5 WAR player is at all likely. He didn’t come close to that during his breakout 2010 even with a .354 BABIP, and while he still has some time to improve he doesn’t have a ton and he’ll have to do it in a really tough division. He’s had 1500 ML ABs now, and so far he looks like a 3.0-3.5 WAR player (given neutral luck). I think Jay can manage something close to that.

I tend to agree with this also to some extent. I think some of us here are big Colby fans and tend to let our emotions cloud our judgement on this one – whilst improvement in age 25-28 is pretty likely for a position player, he’s really got to improve a LOT (bearing in mind that the majority of PAs he’s lost in the last 3 years have been against LHP; adding an extra 100 PA per year against lefties likely doesn’t change his value much) to become the 5 WAR player we think/hope he can be.

Also, as I alluded to in my post, I also wonder if there’s not a bit of revisionism going on regarding Colby’s minor league career. He’s not Mike Trout (a TRUE 5-tool prospect who’s excelled, every year at every level, as a really young guy for the league); he had his problems as a minor leaguer, and although his stock was definitely high as a high-upside, talented high school guy, his only true eye-opening season was in a left-handed hitter’s heaven in 2007 (although admittedly his 150-odd wRC+ is still excellent for that level, it’s not a million miles ahead of what Tommy Pham’s done this year). Whilst I think he maybe does have the talent to hit 30 HR in a season, he never did that as a minor leaguer and to some extent we gloss over the major black marks on his toolset (serious contact issues, a possible concerning platoon split in the majors, fielding that’s been generally below-average and is not trending in the correct direction). It’s possible that he corrects a lot of his issues, improves, and becomes a real star, but it’s not a foregone conclusion, and if we IGNORE all the evidence that suggests he might NOT be the potential superstar we hoped, we’re being just as blinkered as the Straussicorns of this world.

I’m not a big fan of the trade either, but I like what I see from scrabble, and think that trying to win now is at least somewhere near defensible.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 31, 2011 4:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah...

… i figured the reason you left out jay et al’s value was b/c of #1 and that certainly makes sense. too many counterfactuals to make any meaningful conclusions. still worth keeping in the back of one’s mind. re #2, i’m pretty high on lynn but from what i’ve read on scrabble it seems more likely to me that he peaks as a #3 or even fringy #2 type starter than lynn.

in any case i think there’s room for both to get a shot in the rotation over the next 2-4 years. we’ll probably have at least two spots and perhaps three open after 2012. miller might get one but martinez likely be won’t ready yet and i’m not sure who else will be ready. nice to have options at that point so we’re not spending $8mn/year on kevin slowey or somebody.

i agree completely that most people here have over-valued rasmus. i think we all expected his progress to be linear, esp after 2007 was so encouraging, but it just hasn’t happened for whatever reason. he’s obviously still a very valuable player (which is why we got 3 ML players, 2 supplemental draft picks, and 3 other ptbnl prospects for him even after dumping our bullpen detritus), but he just hasn’t turned out to be as irreplaceable as we’d thought he’d be.

anyway, great post.

by kindred on Jul 31, 2011 5:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Jay should be in the analysis

he is the heir apparent so you ahve to assume you only lose the net.

 I also think Scrabble is going into the rotation and if he is successful, this could be a wildly good trade.

 Also, you ahve to consider, we might sign Jackson after he spends time in St.louis. Now he will come at market value, but the ability to sign someone like hiim is a positive and as we have seen with multiple other trades, being here for a a few months makes it much more likely we get him if we want to sign him.

Just win

by The Duke on Jul 31, 2011 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Cards SP commitments for 2012

Waino – $ 9 mil (and if they don’t pick up Waino’s option b/c of the injury, then we can all call Mo the idiot some of the folks here think he is)
Jaime – $3.4 mil
Westy – $8.5 mil
Lohse – $12.1 mil

With those numbers in place, Carpenter’s option and/or renegotiation, the fact that Jackson is a Boras client, and the presence of Lynn and Scrabble as potential league minimum starter options, I don’t see Jackson as anything more than a rental.

by dronemc on Jul 31, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't really like assuming Scrabble will become a starter.

Mo’s interview Saturday made it sound like to me he wanted to keep him the bullpen. He said something about how reliable left-handed arms are hard to get in the bullpen and he’s happy he has that for five more years so that scared me a bit cause I read in between thinking he meant five more years as a LOOGY.

President of the Tyler Greene fan club - Wiki - PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE
Tyler Greene Fanclub - Free admission, just promote playing time for TGreene
TWITTER

by stlcardsfan4 on Aug 1, 2011 3:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

This

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 1, 2011 3:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hopefully not

The only way they’re recouping value on dealing Rasmus beyond this year is if Scrabs can start.

"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby

by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 1, 2011 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

A perfect post

I give this post 7 out of a possible 2 thumbs up. Really well thought out and comprehensive, great work.

The thing that no one seems to be talking about and that no one seems to know much about is the situation with the THREE ptbnls. I’ve seen that the ptbnls are conditional, ie they will depend on how well/poorly Jackson, Dotel, Rdjdjfjrja, and Patterson do, but I haven’t heard anything else about it, and I feel like, given how stacked Torontos farm is and how well they (and increasingly, we) scout, this could be an not-insubstantial component of the deal. I’d be curious to hear people’s thoughts on this? Why hasn’t the front office clarified?

"The Mollusk" makes me want to rail LSD crystals off my friends' sternum. Rage."

by ICEYhawtSTUNNAZ on Jul 31, 2011 2:29 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

I think it will be cash

The cards always look to pull in some cash on these deals, but I like the optionality. But $3-4 million is not insignificant if that is the number.

I look at the deal much more favorably when combined with Furcal deal. Basically, you add a leadoff hitter, take Theriot out of shortstop push Patterson to 6th OF (because SKip becomes the 5th OF) and the combined impact is a huge upgrade for the stretch run

Just win

by The Duke on Jul 31, 2011 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I still think

it is dependent on a) how the compensatory picks play out, and/or b) performance of the players they sent us. Most likely “a” though.

by Stanley1 on Jul 31, 2011 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

well yeah if we get lucky and land the right prospects next year

that upgrades the value immeasurably. 3 main parts though are:

does Colby break out of slump (assuming he would have here too and his BABIP would have regressed)? or does he continue to get worse at defense and hitting?

Edwin Jackson – does he get us to the playoffs

Rzepczynski – does he end up being a serviceable starter next year?

so many Q’s right now, it was as complex trade.

my last avatar was traded.

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 1, 2011 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Subject line post praise

Absolutely top-notch post, and also a timely reminder of player-overvaluation by fanbase (of which I’m guilty). However, seeing those lost (potential) future value figures still hurts.
In the most-likely scenario in the arbitration section, did you mean “Jackson is offered arby and declines” instead of “Jackson is offered arby and accepts”?
Thanks for the terrific post and for the work you put into this.

Still not a werewolf.

by clank on Aug 3, 2011 5:31 AM EDT reply actions  

In the most-likely scenario in the arbitration section, did you mean "Jackson is offered arby and declines" instead of "Jackson is offered arby and accepts"?

Yes. There’s a couple of typos in this post too. I didn’t proof read too well.

Thanks for the terrific post and for the work you put into this.

No problem.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Aug 3, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

A fantastic read. Thanks.

Is Jon Jay the new Willie McGee?

by a fink on Aug 6, 2011 1:13 PM EDT reply actions  

A+++++ WOULD REC AGAIN

"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5

"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.

by Tudor's Electric Fan on Aug 10, 2011 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

The Internet's #1 St. Louis Cardinals blog.
Yahoo_full_count

Managers

Jack_benny__1__small DanUpBaby

Editors

Bendermad_small azruavatar

Trigun_001_small the red baron

Images_small tom s.

Authors

1989_bgh_cropped_small bgh

Valverde_medium_small vivaelpujols