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By Acquiring a Starter, the St. Louis Cardinals Could Upgrade in Two Areas

For the fans of contending clubs, Christmas takes place at the end of July. Unlike the slow burn of winter's Hot Stove, the trade deadline's window is a comparatively short one lasting from the All-Star break's close to July's final day. The Brewers opened the trade season this year with the acquisition for branded closer K-Rod in the minutes just after the clock struck midnight on the day of the All-Star Game and so ending the commissioner's media blackout. Twitter, blogs, and media pot-stirrers then posed the question of whether John Mozeliak would "respond" to the Brewers' move. Thankfully, Mozeliak is far too shrewd an operator to overreact to Milwaukee obtaining a reliever who will throw about 25 innings from here through season's end. The Cardinal GM should be in no rush; after all, his ballclub has only just recently become collectively healthy enough to field the roster of Opening Day. 

It's an easy thing for us fans to get caught up in a seemingly season-long narrative, to play a familiar chord upon a familiar outcome, even if the players are different. Mozeliak and the Cardinals deserve praise for identifying weakness and eliminating it earlier this season by outrighting faded veterans Miguel Batista and Ryan Franklin and replacing them with arms from the farm system. This was addition by subtraction as well as an upgrade in terms of talent. Lance Lynn has been very good since being re-boarding the Memphis Shuttle and returning to St. Louis. Lynn and Jason Motte comprise a nasty duo of set-up men. Even so, it has been difficult for fans to let the Batista/Franklin meltdowns fade from memory. Ryan Franklin blowing saves in April and Miguel Batista giving up go-ahead runs in May and June have nothing to do with the current bullpen. As Azruavatar noted yesterday, sometimes you just lose a game. Nonetheless, there were voices in St. Louis openly demanding to know why the Cardinals were not in on the proven closer with the movie-script nickname of "K-Rod" and the bell continues to be rung for the acquisition of a veteran right-handed reliever. Mozeliak should not answer that bell.

If Mozeliak inquired on Rodriguez at all, I hope he had only cursory talks with the Mets about Rodriguez and that he does not overpay for another right-handed reliever. Even before the organization again shut down Eduardo Sanchez during his rehab stint due to a lighting up of his previous shoulder discomfort, the St. Louis bullpen featured a collection of righties that have put together seasons on par with that of the newest addition to the Milwaukee relief corps. Here is a comparison of the right-handed relievers' stats heading into action on Sunday, July 17, 2011:

Star-divide

Reliever

K/9

BB/9

ERA

FIP

xFIP

Rodriguez

9.69

3.30

3.09

2.94

3.17

Boggs

8.91

2.97

3.24

2.93

3.17

Lynn

12.00

0.75

2.25

1.63

1.43

Motte

8.75

2.50

2.50

2.55

3.36

Salas

9.07

2.17

2.56

2.94

3.32

Sanchez

10.36

5.02

1.88

3.10

4.04

 

 *I included Sanchez in the chart even though he has been ominously shutdown again due to shoulder discomfort. I am not counting on his return; however, at the time of the Rodriguez trade, Sanchez was in the high-90s with his fastball down in Springfield and looked to be on his way to rejoining the St. Louis relief corps in the near future.

For two players to be named later, the Mets shipped Omar Minaya's worst signing to the Brewers where Rodriguez will--actually, no one seems to know what his role will be in the Milwaukee 'pen, but he will be in it. There was some confusion initially, as well, regarding a vesting option in Rodriguez's contract that would be triggered after games finished and guarantee him a 2012 salary of $17.5 million--more than Matt Holliday's 2012 salary. In the wake of the bullpen reformation, the Cardinals are not in need of a high-priced right-handed reliever, whether that arm be K-Rod or Heath Bell (with his 6.63 K/9), who will only give them what they already have in production. The club currently has four righties putting together very good seasons. 

The south side of the bullpen continues to be a different story. Once-effective veteran LOOGY Trever Miller has walked far too many left-handed batters, who are hitting for a slash line of .214/.353/.310/.662 against him. The double-oh in LOOGY stands for "one out" and allowing an OBP of .353 when facing left-handed batters as a LOOGY is simply unacceptable. Brian Tallet has been relegated to the disabled list and, during a test meant to check his ribs, was diagnosed with a kidney disease. While on the active roster, his performance was one of a wounded LOOGY with lefties hitting for a .261/.370/.696/1.066 line against him. Wisely, the Cardinals summoned lefty reliever Raul Vales from Memphis to see what he offers. In extremely limited action, he has done little to lead one to think he can add much due to a wildness that has allowed the following line against him for left-handed batters (in a mere 12 PA):  .222/.417/.222/.639 and a 7.20 BB/9 overall. Here are the lefties' overall stats, which further illustrate their poor performances.

Reliever

K/9

BB/9

ERA

FIP

xFIP

LHB OPS Against

Miller

5.17

5.74

4.02

4.94

5.91

.662

Tallet

6.23

3.46

8.31

7.20

5.18

1.066

Valdes

12.60

7.20

3.60

3.16

4.10

.639

 

Meanwhile, in the starting rotation, as Chris Carpenter has surged and Jaime Garcia stabilized, Kyle Lohse, Jake Westbrook, and Kyle McClellan have scuffled of late. When compared to the starting rotation's 3.75 FIP, the Cards' starter ERA of 3.92 perhaps reflects a lackluster defense that ranks in the bottom five of baseball in terms of team UZR. One proposed way of bolstering the bullpen as well as the rotation is acquiring an upgrade over reliever-turned-starter Kyle McClellan and moving McClellan back to the bullpen; in so doing, making him a reliever-turned-starter-turned-reliever. Underwhelming peripherals as a starter and recent poor results*, when coupled with his success against left-handed batters, make this a palatable option that would address two areas of need. 

*In a surprisingly candid quote in the Post-Dispatch, Duncan said, "The only thing that would make you think that way (with McClellan) would be if his performances made you think that way. I certainly wasn't thinking that way in April and May. But here in July he hasn't been quite the same pitcher."

As the following chart demonstrates, McClellan is that rarest of pitchers, the right-handed LOOGY:

Season

LHB BAA

LHB OBPA

LHB SLGA

LHB OPSA

2008

.238

.321

.385

.706

2009

.198

.309

.245

.554

2010

.204

.287

.306

.592

2011

.208

.265

.329

.594

 

Tony La Russa is a manager with a library of binders containing statistical information on match-ups and splits. McClellan's success against opposing left-handed batters is undoubtedly known to him. (If nothing else, the manner in which La Russa deployed K-Mac as a reliever and the argument in favor of moving him to the rotation evidence this.) The flip-side of the managerial flexibility coin that led him to convert McClellan to a starter in the first place would seem to allow for an upgrade to the rotation that would allow the Cardinals to shift McClellan back to the 'pen--improving both units. It seems a most La Russan maneuver.

This may very well be Plan A for the Cardinals as the trade deadline approaches. Jon Morosi has tweeted that sources tell him the Cardinals have been "one of the most aggressive teams in baseball as far as looking for starters," a focus that seems appropriate, especially given the thin trade market right now for left-handed relievers. If the Cardinals can acquire a starting pitcher with a decent strikeout rate and with an ERA and a FIP likely to be lower than Kyle McClellan, reliever-turned-starter, over the season's final months--that is, a true No. 2 or No. 3 starter--it would serve to simultaneously improve both the rotation and the bullpen. As presently constructed (and, as always, depending on health), the Cardinals can win the National League Central. With an upgrade to the rotation, they would emerge from a convoluted divisional race as the frontrunners.

Comment 719 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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We must

outrun the pirates.

Do it for our grandfathers, they did’t fight WW2 just so we could finish behind the buccos in the division.

The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun

by mob16151 on Jul 18, 2011 7:17 AM EDT reply actions  

"recent stories"

http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/7/17/2279239/get-a-brain-morans

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jul 18, 2011 8:32 AM EDT reply actions  

oh god what has he done

"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11
All the cool kids have these:
Twitter | Google+

by hr on Jul 18, 2011 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

"check the box score? also, no!"

very funny….well done actually waaay too well done…the twitter thing is actually sad i hope for brannon’s sake he wasnt planning the article that long just to make random tweets…and now i hate jason brannon

(ps. wish i got this meme before because it took me e whiloe to get some context/synopsis on this author and on the picture, for those on this daily im sure it was a good read :) )

by guillermozeliak on Jul 18, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Holy. Crap.

That is amazing.

After some prodding, he agreed to an interview on the condition that I buy him two KFC Famous Bowls™.

by goodymobb on Jul 18, 2011 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh my god lolololol
What do you mean by “the little things”?

For a perfect example, just look at one of the greatest teams ever assembled: the 2006 World Champion St. Louis Cardinals. That team had David Eckstein, Yadier Molina, So Taguchi, and Aaron Miles. That’s a Jew [sic], a Mexican [sic], a Chinaman [sic], and a regular American. It was a variable [sic] “League of Nations” of doing the little things.

Hit me up on Google+

by jd is legend on Jul 18, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's the kind of group that, for various reasons, would try to pass a treaty banning WAR

So he’s got a pretty good point!

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Acquiring a starter in order to create a right handed loogy would fit this season perfectly...

Regarding the “option Rasmus” idea floated by Bernie, aside from whether this would benefit Colby at all, do you think the Cards should ship him out for a month simply to gain his rights for the entire 2015 season?

Sign Carlos Silva!!!

by guayzimi on Jul 18, 2011 8:38 AM EDT reply actions  

This strikes me as a bad idea.

Not as bad an idea as trading him during this season, but optioning him would, in my opinion, mean that the Cardinals will be trading him. To me, it’s akin to a girlfriend telling you that you need a break from the relationship to figure out what you want—a trial break-up—which inevitably irreparably damages the relationship and makes the break-up a certainty. Also, I have no idea what optioning Rasmus does to his value. I’ve now come full circle. Trading him during this season is probably a better idea than optioning him, in my mind. If I were the GM, I wouldn’t do either. (But, I’m also the guy who had Adam Dunn on his fantasy team until last week, so…)

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 8:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with bgh totally

and I have mixed feeling about trading him. Don’t do it unless someone will
give fair value in return.

by ridgesee on Jul 18, 2011 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

who in their right mind is going to give fair-value

or, more precisely, what we think is fair-value for a guy hitting .241? They are going to milk that to death to get our price down to what they want.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Then it is simple

don’t trade him unless the other is willing to overlook the current slump.

by ridgesee on Jul 18, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, you know...

…and the one before that, etc.

by sdrone on Jul 18, 2011 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

This.

Not sure why that is so hard for some to understand. We own Colby’s rights for the next few years. As such, WE set his trade value.

by Stanley1 on Jul 18, 2011 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

So we should refuse to trade Rasmus because

he’s playing poorly, yet we would have never considered trading him if he played well. Under what conditions do we consider trading him?

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jul 18, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

none

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jul 18, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

at all

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jul 18, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

ok

his last arb year when it is clear he isn’t going to re-sign with us because two thirds of the fans hate him because he somehow reminds them of JD Drew, then we can trade him for another Adam Wainwright and Jason Marquis.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jul 18, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

never

Viva El Rasmus

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

St Louis cardinals have finally acquired a starter. I thought that they were never going to get one, now we can all say that they have improved in some of the key areas.

Halloween World

by rfreddreka on Jul 18, 2011 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

but seriously

to answer your question. The time to trade a player is when

A.) Another team is offer more than what your perceived future value of said player is.

B.) The drop off between the player, and what you have backing up the player, is less than the upgrade you will be receiving in return. (IE, You trade colby for J. Reyes because the drop off between Colby and Jay is far less than the drop off between Reyes and Theriot)

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly...

I agree 100%. Jay can replace him without a huge drop off, so the replacement is there. Jay is also very cheap for the next few years. I guess for me that makes Rasmus a much more tradeable commodity. I’d give him up if we can replace him with a shortstop/starting pitcher that was equal in trade value.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jul 18, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

When stacked up

agains the expectations that the scouts, team, fans, and us here at VEB have for him, he’s playing very poorly

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jul 18, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

the right answer is: when someone offers us

Something more valuable to this club than colby rasmus is to this club. Just like every other ballplayer on the club.

Trades are made because clubs have differing views of the values of their players (e.g., some other club may think colby is more likely to pan out than the cards think he is), because clubs weight differently different utilities of players (a contending club will look for a player effective now, a rebuilding club will want a player who is developing and cheap for a while), and because different clubs have positonal surpluses and deficits.

So we should trade him when another club gives us so much we can’t refuse, or when we have a wealth of comparable CF prospects, or some other scenario arises that makes it effective to trade him.

Note: maximizing the return on a player in trade is hard when the reality or the perception is that he is being chased out by his team, teammates, coaches, or fanbase.

"chipper jones grounds out, third baseman albert pujols to first baseman mark hamilton." 5.1.11 "carlos pena grounds into double play, second baseman allen craig to shortstop tyler greene to first baseman albert pujols." 5.12.11

by tom s. on Jul 18, 2011 10:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

You have to keep the player down for at least 20 days I believe...

Milwaukee did precisely this with JJ Hardy a few years ago when he was struggling. Needless to say, it creates massive ill-will between player and organization, and if the player doesn’t “deserve” it, he can file a grievance. I don’t personally think Rasmus deserves it since he’s basically hitting the exact same as the NL CF average, but I don’t know if he would take it to the MLBPA.

I would just do it. It would essentially erase this season from his service time and instead of having him for 3.5 years, we could send him down a month, play him for the rest of the season, and then have him for four more years (2012-15) after that. If he’s really pissy, that extra year would only add to his trade value. It wouldn’t save anything in terms of arbitration b/c he’d be a super 2 though…

Sign Carlos Silva!!!

by guayzimi on Jul 18, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

No idea...

the only other comp I know of is JJ Hardy. On Aug 11, 2009 he was hitting .229/.300/.367 with average to above average defense (which was acknowledged by everyone). They sent him down and called him back up when rosters expanded. The Brewers also had Counsell and Alcides Escobar who was a top 20 prospect waiting in the wings. He did lose a year of service time, but he never filed a grievance. There’s also this: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/hardy-and-service-time/

Sign Carlos Silva!!!

by guayzimi on Jul 18, 2011 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

So of the starters available

who do we realistically have a chance of landing?

by beer me on Jul 18, 2011 9:21 AM EDT reply actions  

Who's a target?

2012 FA on teams out of contention & current contract:

Bruce Chen (KC) - 4.38 FIP, 4.45 xFIP; $2M
Kyle Davies (KC)
- 4.95, 4.79; $3.2M
Ryan Dempster (CHC) — 3.71, 3.32; $13.5M
Jeff Francis (KC) - 3.90, 4.37; $2M
John Garland (LAD)
- 4.60, 4.69; $5M
Aaron Harang (SD)— 3.65, 3.92; $3.5M
Livan Hernandez (WAS)— 3.72, 4.05; $1M
Hideki Kuroda (LAD)— 3.72, 3.60; $12M
Rodrigo Lopez (CHC)— 4.66, 4.22; $1M
Jason Marquis (WAS) — 3.88, 3.92; $7.5M
Javier Vasquez (FLA) — 4.37, 4.29; $7M
Chris Young (NYM) — 4.26, 4.53; $1.1M

For reference
K-Mac — 4.73, 4.19; $1.375M
Westy — 4.57; 3.99; $8M

Even though his salary may be prohibitive, I like Dempster. Harang would be an excellent target. Don’t know much about the KC pitchers.

Is Chris Young healthy?

by gocards62 on Jul 18, 2011 9:27 AM EDT reply actions  

SBN'd

have no idea why the strikethroughs occurred

by gocards62 on Jul 18, 2011 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

dashes

it’s auto

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jul 18, 2011 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Marquis...

he could PH and play second.

Sign Carlos Silva!!!

by guayzimi on Jul 18, 2011 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Friends don't let friends

acquire Jason Marquis.

I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

by TBender on Jul 18, 2011 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

can you imagine the Cow's reaction

if they brought him back? That might be worth it for the entertainment. Yeah, maybe not.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

nice reasoning

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

You can't only look at expiring contracts on ooc teams

Theres teams like Tampa and San Fran that need hitting and are stacked with pitching that could deal starters.

by lopey986 on Jul 18, 2011 10:11 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

But doesn't that mean the $$ goes up?

TB and SF are going to give away pitching, are they?

by gocards62 on Jul 18, 2011 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Of this list

Harang is the best target. Good pitcher, durable, not owed much at all, has pitched in the division. The only thing not to like is that he’s a fly ball pitcher (but not an extreme fly ball pitcher).

Kuroda would be a good pickup, but that’s a lot of $$$.

Dempster would be fantastic on the field, but that’s a lot of money to take on.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 18, 2011 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

While a FB pitcher isn't really optimal

it would play better in Busch than in GABP. Although he is a much safer bet in Petco.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wasn't really talking about ballpark

More about how Harang’s career GO/FO doesn’t fit the Duncan philosophy.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 18, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

our middle infield doesn't fit the Duncan philosophy either

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jul 18, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

nicely put

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

I kinda figured that's what you were getting at.

I was just meaning that even with that angle, he still wouldn’t be the most terrible choice.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I think he's the best target of those listed in the original comment.

I would prefer to look for a 2 year option or longer, though, giving the club some leverage to dump Lohse/Westbrook in the offseason and renegotiate with Carpenter.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 18, 2011 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree

Lance Lynn doesn’t project to be better than a 4.20 FIP in the rotation. Both K-Mac and Westbrook are better than that right now, and Westbrook has a FIP below 4.00!

I like Lance Lynn a lot, but people seem to equate being really good for one or two innings with being able to do it for 5, 6, and 7 innings. That’s just not true. Mitchell Boggs is a prime example of this, and Kyle McClellan is another.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 18, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Lynn to the rotation seems more like a sidegrade than an upgrade at this point

moving forward into next season I can see Lynn in the mix for the rotation. But management isn’t going to demote K-Mac for a side grade

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Perhaps then...

Duncan can do him a lot of good…? Wouldn’t be the first time Duncan has turned a guy’s career around by getting him to focus on staying low in the zone.

Jimmy Ballgame for 2011 RFer!!!

by cardzfanbub on Jul 18, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe

But the pitchers you are talking about (excepting Pineiro, who isn’t comparable to Harang in any way) all had the type of stuff that allowed them to make an easy transition into the Duncan mold. Not sure Harang fits that profile.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 18, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

ñ

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jul 18, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

El Siñqueiro

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought Harang was injured...

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jul 18, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rich Harden

Rich Harden should be on this list.

TRADE FOR RICH HARDEN

by mojowo11 on Jul 18, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've thought this as well

Also, I like Edwin Jackson and Mark Buehrle if the White Sox feel they are falling out of the race. Both are FA to be. Buehrle is interesting because he fits Dunc’s groundballisms and grew up as a Cards fan or is from the area or some such.

Could Colby Rasmus hit a ball so hard that even he couldn't catch it?

by Cardinals645 on Jul 19, 2011 3:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Shelby Miller!

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jul 18, 2011 9:29 AM EDT reply actions  

Shelby Miller?

you know, that a’int the worst idea,

by ridgesee on Jul 18, 2011 9:41 AM EDT reply actions  

Just wanted to say that

I watched the ‘batshit Theriot’ episode again, and Theriot was right. But i can see how the ump got it wrong, it was a fast moving play. I had to pause my dvr and bump it with the ffwd button. Theriot did have the ball in his glove with his foot on the bag, but it was a split-second move.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 9:44 AM EDT reply actions  

I agree

And I don’t disagree with the out call there. It’s all going too quickly. My disagreement comes with the ejection – unless Theriot used a magic word. I did not see Theriot make first contact with an umpire, but I saw TWO umpires make first contact with Theriot.

by stlfan on Jul 18, 2011 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Got ran w/ contact

It looked to me when they bumped caps is when he got ran. Although I thought he said " you are fuckin terrible" like 3 times in a row probably didn’t help him out much. Most if not all of the major contact was after he got tossed.

"Chuck Norris CAN divide by zero"

by elirock83 on Jul 18, 2011 10:07 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

dogs and cats are now living together in harmony

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

contact will always get an ejection

and even without the contact, that eruption deserved an ejection.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jul 18, 2011 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yep

I could see he was going to get tossed within 3 seconds of his reaction. It actually took a little longer than I thought it would before he got ejected.

by Merry CRasmus on Jul 18, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

does anyone know

if contact after an ejection would affect a possible suspension or suspension length?

"I wonder if I put on a uniform and told La Russa I wanted to play for him if I could be a big leaguer too?"
"that all depends. are you gritty?" "You would need a mediocre decade of MLB experience first" "do you have a goatee, are you short, and do you try really hard?" "Are you willing to play four positions terribly?"

by cschepers on Jul 18, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

i would think so.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

easy for us to say

but I’ll chalk it up to being human. On a really hot day, I might woulda come unglued over that, too.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't see a way to do that.

The runner is moving back, and his momentum has him moving away from the bag.

by sdrone on Jul 18, 2011 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

just watched the play

the runner came up and stood there for a moment. Once the call was made he and theriot were standing there about the same distance from the bag. Theriot runs towards the ump, and then the runner goes to the base.

He may not have got him. But the outcome would have been much better.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

this is what I said immediately following the play

theriot kinda non-chalantly turns away expecting the out call. If he’d paid attention, it would have been an easy tag out.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jul 18, 2011 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

we can argue this till doomsday

but if they aren’t going to call that an out, then those stupid f’in proximity calls should be outlawed as well.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

there’s no reason to ever make a “proximity” call. Either they are on the bag with the ball, or they aren’t. Problem is, usually when you think they are making a “proximity” call, if you’ll take the time to slow it down you’ll see that they were on the bag with the ball for a split second. It’s just too difficult to see ball in glove and foot on bag at the same time standing ten feet away.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jul 18, 2011 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

probably so.

I have seen them in shots from OF cameras where they catch the ball and throw it on a DP and their feet never get with 6 inches of the bag. Those are the ones that get me steamed. Not saying that it happens all the time, but they do let them get away with it.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

this

would jeter have gotten the call?

"I wonder if I put on a uniform and told La Russa I wanted to play for him if I could be a big leaguer too?"
"that all depends. are you gritty?" "You would need a mediocre decade of MLB experience first" "do you have a goatee, are you short, and do you try really hard?" "Are you willing to play four positions terribly?"

by cschepers on Jul 18, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

the play wouldn't have been as close because

JETER IS THE BEST SHORTSTOP EVER!!!

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jul 18, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

no way anyone would be prepared to switch gears and

go back to tag cozart..and cozart was like 2 steps away so he could easily get back like someone mentioned

i did pause it too and hit looks like his foot is touching but you would need a overhead/side view to make sure there is contact for sure and i didnt see anyview that provided that

either way i agree with theriot that it was an aweful call and that needs to be an out call

if you wanna see a blown call look at wood/castro pick off against FL

by guillermozeliak on Jul 18, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

I just watched it as well

Theriot slightly bumped the umpire, and I mean slightly, but it was nice to actually see some emotion out of Theriot. He really did go all-out on telling the umpire exactly what he thought.

by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 18, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Bernie Miklasz's Colby to AAA article.

I think that I agree with Bernie’s main points to the article.

1) Colby is struggling – and that is putting it nicely. If he were 34 instead of 24, we would have (seriously) been calling for a DFA since 2 months ago.

2) Colby is not 34, he is still young. A lot of young players are sent back down to find their game when they’re struggling.

3) Since Jay is playing better and (if the two youngsters’ paths continue at this pace) will be earning more and more playing time, leaving Rasmus with less and less. I would rather see Rasmus playing everyday to get out of his slump instead of sitting the bench. If there’s nowhere to do that at the MLB level, then doing it in AAA is fine by me.

4) Only do this if the Cardinals would be doing this to try to save Rasmus as a Cardinal, not in order to hide him from LaRussa or trading him away.

by stlfan on Jul 18, 2011 9:51 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Colby is still the third best outfielder on this team, or fourth if you like Jay better at the moment

So I don’t see any point in sending him down. His struggles in June/July are primarily a function of BABIP. His peripherals are fine.

Colby’s struggles seem to be a function of expectations. If you assess Colby to be about a .340 wOBA CF who walks about 10% of the time, hits about 20 homers, and plays average defense (like I do) then Colby is meeting expectations. I don’t think Colby is ever going to be a 6 WAR player so there’s no need to grasp for narratives to explain why he’s not there.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

But unfortunately, in St. Louis (and by a lot of people here), he is viewed as a superstar like Pujols or Holliday or Berkman, and he’s simply just not that…

by DiscoJer on Jul 18, 2011 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't normally have a problem with this.....

But I don’t think Rasmus would handle it well. I DON’T KNOW FOR SURE…..but Raz seems like the kind of player that might get really down on himself and his game if he were sent down at this point.

Either let him fight through it while playing Jay some, or trade him.

by Stanley1 on Jul 18, 2011 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

The average line for CFers in the NL (in an insanely good year for CFers) is...

.265/.334/.416

Colby’s line is 241/.326/.404.

Why would a rational baseball organization release this player regardless of his age?

Sign Carlos Silva!!!

by guayzimi on Jul 18, 2011 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

because the mob requires a sacrifice

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

well
because the mob requires a sacrifice

Honestly, I’d prefer a female but ciest la vie.

The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun

by mob16151 on Jul 18, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions   3 recs

touche'

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

You seem to be showing that he's below average

I don’t want to get rid of Colby, but this doesn’t help.

by sdrone on Jul 18, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think of it more like this

After a massive slump, he’s now hitting a touch below average for his position. That’s not a strong argument, in my opinion, that he should be sent down to AAA.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Is it reasonable to expect his end-of-year hitting stats to look like this?

Is it reasonable to expect him to keep declining? I don’t see a strong argument for answering yes to either of those.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

All the evidence points towards him improving a lot as the season goes along.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

I also think I might agree with Willie McGee's Twin that expectations are playing a huge part

It really could be that he’s not quite as good as a lot of us hoped he would be. If we lower our expectations a bit his current slump seems even less bad.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sure

I personally think he still has a ton of potential left, but his current performance is still pretty damn solid.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

please take a soapbox out and explain that to the masses.

they’re not listening to anybody else.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Generation Now

We are in the thick of a pennant race. We want all our players “above their heads”, “firing on all cylinders”, “catching fire” whatever.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jul 18, 2011 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

His current performance

is bad for 1.5 months now.

I understand BABIP, potential, etc. But at some point he has to accumulate hits.

I guess I’m just frustrated. Again, I want to stress that I’m not advocating getting rid of him. It just seems to me that there’s more at work here than bad luck.

by sdrone on Jul 18, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wait what

Since when is last 1.5 months current performance? You don’t just get to ignore his numbers at the beginning of the year, or ignore the fact that he had a .227 BABIP in June and a .133 BABIP so far this month.

Rasmus has a career 108 wRC+, where 100 is league average for all hitters. Combine that with the fact that he is at least an average fielding centerfielder, it’s hard to argue that he hasn’t been performing.

This year, he’s been an above average player, despite the low BABIP.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

joe strauss says he's not as good as the SABR guys think he is

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jul 18, 2011 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

The SABR guys think Joe Strauss is a terrible journalist

Neither of these facts has any relevance to the argument at hand, lol.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 18, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

many none SABR guys think Joe Strauss is a terrible journalist

you can only act like an asshat so many times before people realize that you are acting.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here's what I find out about this:

It wasn’t just statheads guys who touted Colby coming up, it was seamheads AND statheads. and it’s still the scouts that see this incredible potential in him, as long as he can work on his consistency. How Colby’s toolsyness has become an attack point on the SABR community is beyond me — he’s as much of a scout’s dream as he is a numbers geek.

"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor

by Alxfritz on Jul 18, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

whatever, statnerd

ride the wave. Tsunami. Also #HPGF

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jul 18, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

There's no way scouts and stat nerds could like the same player.

None. It’s an impossibility.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mike Trout

would like a word with you.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 19, 2011 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Given, he IS an above average player,

but he should be a difference maker. Potential matters. Rasmus should be a better player than he is on both sides of the ball.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jul 18, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, that doesn't adjust for ballpark

Busch is one of the most pitcher friendly parks in the game. So Rasmus has been about average for centerfielder’s this year, which would be a terrible reason to release someone.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

I thought

bush was just slightly tilted toward pitchers. I didn’t think it rated as an extreme pitchers park at all.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jul 18, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then how do you explain The Ballpark at Arlington's hitter-friendliness?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

because he favors hitter

like I said. because he loves a pitcher

by STLRegalia on Jul 18, 2011 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Runs - 94 park factor

HR – 82 park factor

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Those are 3 year park factors from seamheads.com

ESPN has Busch at 83 for runs and 79 for home runs, though those are one year

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Complete post fail....

ugh. B.U.S.C.H.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jul 18, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

And Rasmus has certainly not played slightly below average

That centerfielder’s are hitting ridiculously well this year doesn’t take away from Rasmus’ value, as his offense should be compared to all players.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Er

1) Colby’s not really struggling. 106 wRC+ with a .285 BABIP, and still probably good defense in center. That’s still a very, very good player.

2) Rasmus has been up for 3 years now, sending him down to AAA won’t do shit for his development.

3) Jay has a .356 BABIP – .080 points higher than Rasmus’. He’s not really playing better, and is likely to be a lot worse than Rasmus going forward. His ceiling is essentially Rasmus’ floor.

4) I agree.

I think the only form of demotion that makes sense would be to send Rasmus down for a month in order to gain an extra year of team control.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Rasmus: .325 wOBA, .285 BABIP, 1.4 WAR
Jay: .352 wOBA, .356 BABIP, 1.8 WAR

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

And I don't trust the defensive metrics at all

No way Rasmus has been a -7 run defender so far this year.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

have you been watching the games?

Rasmus has made a lot of bad plays in the outfield this year.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

lot of good ones too.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

he has

that running over the shoulder catch saved a run yesterday. But overall if someone tells me Colby’s defense has been a negative this year I’m inclined to believe them

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

i would think it is closer to even than anything

but maybe a bit negative. 7 runs is a lot, though.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

it's just a measurement

7 runs doesn’t mean 7 runs. It’s a value so we can compare it to other centerfielders and other position players

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Looking at that list, it's quite possible.

I certainly would put him towards the bottom – and definitely in the bottom half.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I believe he has been the 3rd worst defensive center fielder this year in baseball

Do you believe that all those players above him have had worse defensive years than him?
 
I know there is noise in UZR, just do to the nature of someone deciding if a play should be made. But there is no reason to believe he has played better than those above him.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

i am not arguing anything specific

but you cannot use those numbers to be that precise, which is i think where VEP was going with his comment. i would tend to agree that Colby is likely in the bottom half- but, for example, there is no way that Matt Kemp is a superior defensive talent to Colby Rasmus. no chance. if we put Colby at closer to a zero UZR, (which, if you average out his UZR/150s, seems to be what it comes close to, and we are over 2 seasons now) his WAR is going to increase correspondingly.

that’s the only point i was making.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

but we are not measure talent

just the season up to this point. There are currently 12 players with a higher OPS than Albert Pujols. And only one of those those 12 (votto) would seriously entertain an argument that he is the better hitter than Pujols

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes

i agree. i believe Colby is better defensively than the metrics have shown this year. therefore, i discount the statistical assessment of his value for this year. i am not disagreeing with the stats per se- the fielding stats just only go so far.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

UZR is not OPS

We’ve had this discussion before – are you going to acknowledge that or do we have to do it all over again?

by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure. I'll acknowledge that UZR is not OPS

I’ll acknowledge that we’ve had the discussion that UZR is not OPS before.

you are not acknowledging that a player’s 2011 UZR is not a measure of how someone has played defensively from the start of the season until today?

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

That would be generally correct, yes

UZR is not necessarily descriptive

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't understand the syntax of your last sentence

So I’ll just say this. UZR is not an accurate description of how well a player has played on defense in a single, or especially half, season. In addition to the numerous amounts of random error that come with classifying the velocity, location, and angle of a batted ball, there is also varying degrees of bias, based on ballpark, or even range.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

it's the best tool that we have

Use what you have, unless you have scouting evidence that suggest colby has been better this year…

btw, Cobly now has over one and a half seasons worth of bad center field play. That small same size is getting larger.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is the plus/minus rating

that Goold refers to useful at all?

by sdrone on Jul 18, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, his career UZR/150 is -1.7

IOW average. And that’s in less than 3000 innings, so really not all that meaningful.

In all likelihood, Rasmus has been better than a -7 run defender. Objectively because very few players are that bad on defense, meaning it’s likely he’s better than that (bellcurve), and his DRS is +2 runs.

Subjectively because he has excellent range.

Just because UZR says he’s -7 runs doesn’t mean you can fall back on that, especially because DRS has him as +2.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't understand this
but, for example, there is no way that Matt Kemp is a superior defensive talent to Colby Rasmus. no chance.

Why is there no chance of this? Kemp has wheels.

TRADE FOR RICH HARDEN

by mojowo11 on Jul 18, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

have you ever watched Matt Kemp play the outfield?

the dude has some of the worst instincts i have ever seen. no doubt he has the PHYSICAL talent to do it, but he is absolutely, unequivocally not doing it.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have

He seems fine to me. And the whole “bad instincts” thing seems to apply just as much to Colby as Kemp. Colby makes some truly ridiculous screw-ups from time to time.

TRADE FOR RICH HARDEN

by mojowo11 on Jul 18, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kemp is rated just slightly above Colby

it’s not like that link is suggesting that Kemp is a gold glove or anything.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

He seems great going back,

and shitty coming forward.

http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz

by hazel on Jul 18, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

earlier this year

you could say the exact opposite. When that whole “afraid of walls” thing was going on.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

You could say that, but you'd be a fucking idiot.

Every distinct memory I have of Rasmus making a great play is him going back on a ball. Every distinct memory I have of him making a shit play is either him screwing up a ball that bounces in front of him, or him screwing up on that one play to his right that resulted in the “he’s afraid of walls lol” argument.

http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz

by hazel on Jul 18, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

And by "you" I mean Van Slyke.

Not meaning to call you an idiot, frog.

http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz

by hazel on Jul 18, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

there were two plays in the gap there that he screwed up on

on back to back plays. One hit his glove, one landed between him and Holliday. Also at the time he seemed to be catching everything shallow.

But yeah, Van Slyke has been extremely hard on Rasmus.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

-7 runs?

That would mean he’s been like the worst centerfielder in the game. He’s looked above average to me. Some glaring miscues, but still obviously has tremendous range, which is what really matters.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

3rd worse

he has good range. But without watching the other 20 qualifying CFers I don’t think you can make an argument that he isn’t defensively one of the worst CFers this year.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

The difference, of course, is that UZR, even with its flaws

is still “some” objective measure of defensive performance, whereas, VEPs’ statement “he’s looked above average to me” is biased (in multiple ways), lacks authority or basis, and is usually the type of comment met with derision around here.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

scouting vs. SABR re: Colby continues

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jul 18, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

And this is the problem with defensive metrics and they way they get applied to value on the SABR sites like B-Ref and Fangraphs.

Just because they use them in WAR doesn’t mean that they are accurate over sample sizes. I would venture to say that the fan scouting report is about as accurate as UZR with less than a season’s worth of data. But because one is deemed “objective” that means it has less error? That’s just simply not true. Considering the correlation, the subjective views of an objective observer might actually be more accurate.

Most scouts still consider him to be an above average center fielder.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 19, 2011 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

you look at the what numbers you have

if you want to make an argument against the numbers, then you have to bring something else to the discussion.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

i hate this argument

it’s so stupid. you’re saying the exact same thing as someone saying we should have replaced Colby with Jon Jay in the starting lineup last year (pre-Ludtrade) because of Jay’s batting average.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

it was too late then

maybe if they had put Jay in for Colby, there never would have been a tradewick?

by STLRegalia on Jul 18, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

then there wouldn't have been a Berkman

what’s your point? i can’t tell if you’re being funny or making a legitimate argument against Colby.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can't tell either

and my “being funny” contact rate is worse than Colby’s right now

by STLRegalia on Jul 18, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

haha ok :]

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ludtrade?

More like Tradewick

Hit me up on Google+

by jd is legend on Jul 18, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

thank you- just stole it

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

no i'm not

because I’m not saying colby will continue to under preform in the out field. I’m saying he has.

Look saying something like, “Only three Cardinals with enough PA to qualify for the batting title have worse OBP than colby this year.”

Isn’t saying that “Only three cardinals with enough PAs to qualify for the batting title this year, and this isn’t going to change so we should trade him and let Jay play center.”

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

you apparently just don't understand how UZR works then

you cannot make an accurate judgement based on UZR of how well Colby has performed in the outfield this year.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

for reference.
UZR tries to record a player’s likely true talent and estimate his future performance based on the nuances of the batted ball and the player’s response to those nuances. It is not trying to capture exactly what happens on the field according to some arbitrary categories, like most of the offensive metrics (which make no distinction between a lucky ground ball bleeder through the "5-hole" or a clean, line drive base hit to the outfield), even the advanced ones like wOBA or linear weights.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can't use numbers for defense

At least not in the same way you can for offense, especially in a half season’s worth of innings.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

fine

never bring up numbers when speaking about Theriot’s or Schumakers defense.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't, not for single season or especially half season

For career or multiple seasons, UZR is more acceptable, or at least it has a managable margin of error.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow

So because you can’t use a half season’s worth of data that has a significant amount of error, we can’t use multiple seasons worth of data about someone like Theriot or Schumaker? Talk about a mother of a false equivalence.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 19, 2011 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

But then who was phone?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

WHO WAS PHONE

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
Twitter | Google+

by prophetjohn on Jul 18, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Colby

I would add 5) Only do this if you can get Colby somewhat on board with it.
 Given all the problems Rasmus has had with the powers that be, a demotion to AAA without his “consent” would be counterproductive in the extreme. He’d never get his mojo back with his head up his ass.

by deweydell on Jul 18, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Don't do it at all

It will do nothing but generate ill will.

by sdrone on Jul 18, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

I found this amusing

Tony La Russa is a manager with a library of binders containing statistical information on match-ups and splits. McClellan’s success against opposing left-handed batters is undoubtedly known to him.

Especially when you take into account his insistence in putting in a freaking lefty to face votto despite votto hitting 70 points higher against lefties.

by lopey986 on Jul 18, 2011 10:03 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

I think votto hits shitty pitchers a lot better than good pitchers

And our lefties are about as shitty as it gets, on top of that he’s hitting lefties at a ridiculous clip this year, so why even bother with putting in our 2 worst relievers to face him when we could leave in a good righty.

by lopey986 on Jul 18, 2011 10:14 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

well I agree in principle that miller shouldn't pitch to anyone

I still think he has a better chance to get Votto than say, Motte, Boggs, or Lynn. As long as he doesn’t walk him.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think so

Miller seems to walk any lefty who is even a remotely decent hitter at this point, probably because he has no confidence in his ability to retire that hitter if he were to throw strikes. Plus, what’s the point in burning a lefty only to have to remove him the next batter when a righty comes up and then you are stuck with a righty to face Bruce who has a much more pronounced lefty/righty split?

by lopey986 on Jul 18, 2011 10:24 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

the real issue is the LOOGY

This team needs one, and as long as Miller is the LOOGY, Tony is going to use him as one.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's fine

But that’s not the right spot to use the loogy. La Russa burned the crap out of the bullpen by using a lefty vs votto and then having to take him out because votto ripped a double and youve got a righty coming up. Using a righty vs votto and rolen and then using the loogy vs Bruce (who has a much greater split) would’ve been a much better move.

by lopey986 on Jul 18, 2011 11:05 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Miller destroyed Bruce in an at-bat immediately afterward.

I would call Jay Bruce a “decent” hitter.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

no such thing as reverse splits for batters

anyway, career wise Votto OPS ~.100 lower against lefties than righties.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ryan Ludwick has a reverse split.

But it’s silly to use such a small sample to say that Votto would hit better against any lefty right now, not that I think lopey is really arguing this.
I think the main story is that Tony sometimes conveniently uses small sample type arguments when they confirm his preconceived beliefs, and ignores them when they don’t.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hm. It's not there in his 900 something PAs in the minors so far as I can tell

I thought I remembered him having a reverse split in the minors too, so I was wrong about that. But it is there in his 2800 PAs in the majors.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

look

You can show me a dragon eating my dog and burning down my house, and I’m still going to tell you that dragons don’t exist.

Actually, I think i’ll be more incline to believe dragons exist than reverse splits for hitters.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Um, this makes no sense
You can show me a dragon eating my dog and burning down my house, and I’m still going to tell you that dragons don’t exist.

Dragons are a mythical creature that don’t exist. A reverse split is when a hitter has a track record of better results against a same-handed pitcher.

The former is fairy tale nonsense, the latter is reality that can easily be seen in results in real-world examples.

You’re literally saying that you don’t care what the evidence is, which is sort of silly and not even a real argument.

TRADE FOR RICH HARDEN

by mojowo11 on Jul 18, 2011 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes
You’re literally saying that you don’t care what the evidence is, which is sort of silly and not even a real argument.

That is what I’m saying exactly. I don’t care what evidence you show me, the reverse split doesn’t exist.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's really stupid

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's not really helping your argument

That doesn’t show anything other than that Ichiro hits LH and RH pitching the same. Any difference between LHP and RHP would be subsumed in the error.

You need to find somebody with a big split over a large number of PAs.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Splitwick

.235/.312/.437
.274/.341/.472

Over 2801 career PA.

TRADE FOR RICH HARDEN

by mojowo11 on Jul 18, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

If it wasn't clear

The top line is his line against lefties, the bottom is his line against righties.

TRADE FOR RICH HARDEN

by mojowo11 on Jul 18, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's clear that he has, in the raw results, a reverse split in the majors

But I guess the question is whether 2800 PAs is significant enough to make any claims. I can’t remember when BABIP is supposed to normalize, but I remember it takes a ton of PAs.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

.260 versus LHP career

.322 versus RHP

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes.

And my point is that Ludwick’s “reverse split” is very likely a function of a unlucky/fluky BABIP.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Anyone care to chime in a say if he has enough PAs for it not to be a fluke?

Or at least for it to be possible for it not to be a fluke?

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

...
A better example would have been Ichiro from a few years ago. Ichiro (Table 68 in The Book) showed a -33 points reverse split (through 2004). That, of course, is the observation. The estimate of his true skill was +4. I think he kept showing reverse splits through 2006 or 2007 until reversing himself.

Basically, be very careful in what you may see as something real, when it is not.

Anyway, Ichiro is now at -16 points of observed split, with 1951 PA against LHP. So, we observe a greater split with far more PA than Nick Johnson. We regress him only 34%, to put him at a -1 reverse split. Ichiro, therefore, might be the only guy in baseball with a true reverse split. But, Ichiro basically breaks every system we try to devise for him. He’s the exception to the rule.

Nick Johnson and Wilkerson were ALSO in that table in The Book, by the way, so you are not telling us something new here. At the time (through 2004 season), Nick Johnson was estimated at a true +21 split, and is now, based on my quick calc above, at +9.

Link

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

not sure about significant sample size, but here are some more data points:

vs. L: 20.4% LD, 29.1% GB, 50.5% FB
vs. R: 21.8% LD, 32.3% GB, 45.9% FB

Here is a link to my google+ profile.

by all4tookie on Jul 18, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I find it interesting

that there is such thing as luck in baseball but not clutch.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jul 18, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

there is such thing as clutch.

it’s just not predictive.

"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor

by Alxfritz on Jul 18, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm having

a hard time believing luck is predictive.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jul 18, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

did someone say it was?

"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor

by Alxfritz on Jul 18, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

BABIP

did.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jul 18, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

BABIP has a skill element for hitters

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

OT, but

do we know (or have a guess) as to how much of batter BABIP is skill-based? always wondered this.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

wouldn't it be different for everyone?

since everyone doesn’t have the same amount of skill?

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

That'd be almost impossible to quantify, I think

For clarification, you’re asking if we can say, “Oh, .275 of his BABIP is luck, and .050 is skill based?”

Interesting question

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's one part of the equation

Speed is another. GB:FB ratio is another. Ability to “put the ball where they aint” is another

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okay so when

does Ludwick hit rights better than lefts and “he is who we thought he was.”? You can attribute it to a high BABIP, but there are too many “personal” variables to consider like you mention.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jul 18, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

This sentence didn't make sense to me

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

For Ludwick -

He’s just as fast to 1B whether he’s facing LHP/RHP and his LD% between the two is pretty close.

I just don’t see much if any statistical evidence that Ludwick is actually a better hitter against RHP than he is against LHP.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

But is

he a better hitter against rights?

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jul 18, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is he

better at hitting rights than other right handed batters?

BTW I’m not trying to sound like a dick. I’m ignorant to this. I’m trying to figure out why his splits says he is, but you beg to differ.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jul 18, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, Ludwick's splits (IMO)

are just a statistical anomaly.

Just like the fact that Votto has hit better against LHP this year. It’s happenstance. Going forward, I would expect that Votto, like just every other LHB, will hit worse against LHP (especially against LH specialty pitchers who have true split advantages against LHB).

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm following you (I think)

you are saying today he does hit rights better (statistical anomaly) but that will normalize over time. That because his LD% and GB% are close from each handed pitcher, the right pitchers are unlucky and the lefts are lucky. (In terms of BABIP.) These two should at the very least look even over time.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jul 18, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes.

In the past, Ludwick has hit righties better. But, IMO, this fact is the result of happenstance, not because Ludwick is truly a better hitter against RHP.

Over time, I would expect the split to disappear.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah seriously

Colby keeps get balls caught right on the line lately. Even liners. Normally these are doubles. But it seems players are positioning themselves closer to the line when he bats….

But at the same time, everything he hits the other way is getting caught also.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

no, not really

more asking, can we figure out what % of BABIP league-wide is a result of batter skill, and what % is just normal luck.

seems like this is something that should be able to be quantified. obviously, it would be next to impossible to do for individual hitters. i just mean in aggregate.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

this doesn't make sense the way i said it.

i’m not sure i’m wording my thoughts right. i should be able to figure this out on my own, i think.

i guess, how controllable is BABIP by a player?

i suppose i would need to know the league average BABIP, the standard error, and then see how much everyone is able to exceed or fall below that. i need to think about this more.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have not met him.

"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor

by Alxfritz on Jul 18, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's a real

pain in the ass

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jul 18, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

If there is such a thing as clutch

It does not bear out in the numbers

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ludwick's ISO against

RHP – 199
LHP – 202

He hits LHP just as hard as RHP. If he’s actually a significantly better hitter against RHP than LHP I would expect it to show up somehwere other than a fluky difference in BABIP betwen LHP/RHP.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Aha

I hadn’t noticed that.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Around ~1100 PAs

Link

Joe Strauss is the greatest journalist since Edward R. Murrow.
Also, I would kiss Rui on the web cam.

by azruavatar on Jul 18, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ah

So, would we need ~1100 PAs against lefties for Ludwick, or total PAs?

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Against LHP (if you wanted his BABIP against lefties to "stabilize")

(And “stabilize” would not mean that Ludwick’s true talent BABIP against lefties woud be known afetr 1100 PAs.)

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

That leaves me a little confused about the meaning of "stabilize" in this context then

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll cut and paste from the article

One writer described the concept of stats stabilizing as "pretty simple—at a certain threshold of either plate appearances (for hitters) or batters faced (for pitchers) a number will stabilize such that it can be taken at close to face value." That’s not true, though. Once a hitter reaches a threshold, his rate still can’t be taken at face value. At any particular threshold, we still need to include 50 percent of mean performance to get the most accurate representation of the player.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

So it's sort of like a half-life, or something?

It’s the point at which we can say it doesn’t have to be regressed by any more than half?

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll chime in and say that it's possible it's not a fluke

I mean a bad or good BABIP is partially correlated with whether you’re hitting linedrives or popups or weak groundballs.

I’d venture to say that for every 5 times BABIP is brought up the bringer-upper only considers this fact 1 time.

by infallibleopiniongenerator on Jul 18, 2011 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

i still maintain

that it is a result of him being one of the only bat right throw left players in the bigs.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

f'n cardball

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jul 18, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's the main reason I wonder if he really could have a reverse split

Ludwick belongs to two small groups of baseball weirdos. The (possible, apparent) reverse split group, and the bat-right/throw-left group. That’s a cool coincidence that makes me wonder if there’s anything actually going on.
I wonder if he’ll even get enough major league PAs to ever prove he has a reverse split, assuming that he does? He’s in his age-32 season and his hitting has been going down hill. I hope he gets out of PetCo.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Umm..

How does the fact that Ludwick’s throws with his left arm affect his BABIP?

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

It just made me wonder if there was something about how he hits that could be different from the typical right handed hitter

It’s not so much that his throwing would theoretically effect his hitting, it’s that his hitting “better” against righties and his throwing lefty could maybe be related to the same cause. Or something.

Basically, I realize that it’s unlikely anybody has a true reverse split. The reasons I always wondered if Ryan Ludwick did were 1. he appears to from the results of his major leage hitting data, and 2. he is a weird player because of the bat righty/throw lefty thing. Maybe there’s something weird about Ryan Ludwick that is not true for most players.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well okay

I don’t really know what to tell you about that, other than that I don’t believe in velcro, and no matter how much velcro you show me, I’m standing firm on that. That doesn’t make me wrong, it just makes me opinionated!

TRADE FOR RICH HARDEN

by mojowo11 on Jul 18, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wait a darn minute

Are you making a joke? You know how VEB feels about humor!!!

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

You should be ashamed of yourself.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's kind of like how I occasionally see "video evidence" of the non-existent 2004 World Series.

I think I get where you’re coming from now.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

this is the second time you've said this in as many days
no such thing as reverse splits for batters

can you explain

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
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by prophetjohn on Jul 18, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Votto is a great hitter.

For his career, he has been slightly less great against LHP, compiling a line of .308/.391/.507/.898 over 727 PA compared to a career line of .320/.415/.568/.983 against RHP. This season, he has a reverse platoon split against LHP, but not for his career.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

HComfort level

he looked real relaxed n all of his ab’s vs stl lefties, and hit the ball hard each time as well. Maybe he has just figured something out this year. Or it just maybe he’s just a good ball player, funny how that skill thing works.

"Chuck Norris CAN divide by zero"

by elirock83 on Jul 18, 2011 10:23 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Does one of our resident medical experts want to parse this?

Quote:

The prognosis for reliever Eduardo Sanchez is not good for the remainder of this year. A recent MRI of Sanchez’ right shoulder did not reveal significant damage of the right rotator cuff but did find wear in the broadest muscle in the upper back.

Joe Strauss is the greatest journalist since Edward R. Murrow.
Also, I would kiss Rui on the web cam.

by azruavatar on Jul 18, 2011 10:10 AM EDT reply actions  

I wonder what they mean by 'wear'.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

rooks carrying the water to the 'pen

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jul 18, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I enjoyed Heath Bell giving the Yoda backpack full of

goodies to the kid sitting next to the wall at the ASG. I thought that was pretty cool.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

"I can't sign anything during the game. But I can sign before the game..."

Great quote by Bell during that exchange as the kid pulls some autographed gear out of the backpack.

I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

by TBender on Jul 18, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

They are talking about some sort of lat injury

which would be significant for a pitcher since it acts as an internal rotator of the shoulder. Also, we aren’t talking about tires here so “wear” is an odd term. It would be interesting to know the location of his pain, it would go a long way in providing a better guess as to what they are talking about. I mean, are we talking about the muscle belly or tendon? “Wear” makes me think tendon.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jul 18, 2011 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Lat is commonly known as "the broadest muscle of the back"

but it isn’t an upper back muscle. Also, I didn’t even know wear on lat tendons was a thing.

http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz

by hazel on Jul 18, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

I originally had the "upper back" comment in my post too

but didn’t think it would be relevant to what az wanted to know. Peavy had a lat tendon tear, but I can’t recall anyone else off hand with a tendon injury.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jul 18, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Their record seems to be a pretty good reflection of their run differential.

Unlike Milwaukee’s -12 run differential and 51-45 record.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

we'll see when we play them 13 more times

"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11
All the cool kids have these:
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by hr on Jul 18, 2011 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

You mean, arrrrrrgh.

Bright side: This year they’re good! This means the Cards will own them!

I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

by TBender on Jul 18, 2011 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't buy their pitching

So I see them falling away.

TRADE FOR RICH HARDEN

by mojowo11 on Jul 18, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does Rasmus get us

Yunel Escobar, Brandon Morrow, and a B prospect? What if we through in one of our arms like Swagerty, Kelly or Cleto? Does that land us a solid SS, solid #3 SP and a new Future Cardinal? Maybe we could throw in a guy like Ryan jackson. Purely an idea, makes sense in my head though.

by rumors on Jul 18, 2011 10:21 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Um, no

Again, no.

And probably not.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 18, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

To extrapolate:

Our front office fucked up by going after the worst trade asset at SS last offseason.

Now we are dealing with the consequences.

We could have acquired JJ Hardy for little more (or possibly not any more at all) than what we gave up for Theriot. We could have given up a couple of decent prospects and acquired Escobar, who was being sold low in an effort to move him out of Atlanta. Not sure we could have trumped the Toronto offer, though.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 18, 2011 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

I thought that TOR-ATL deal was an in-season trade last year?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

He hasn't been very good

And he got off to a horrible start again this year and it was looking like another bad year from him until he poured it on in June. Easy to say in hindsight we should have got him but when he was available he didn’t look all that enticing.

by lopey986 on Jul 18, 2011 11:10 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Enticing

Neither did Theriot. Basically, we had our choice of a SS coming off a .313 wOBA season who is an excellent defender and a player coming off a .286 wOBA season and who is a below average defender. 2.0 Fangraphs WAR to 0.2 Fangraphs WAR. I’d say that Hardy was the better choice to target at the time. Hindsight only makes it more obvious.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

And with Boog amassing 1.5 WAR so far

Theriot’s acquisition (0.2 WAR) is even more painful.

by gocards62 on Jul 18, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Stupid Theriot

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

So yeah, um, Boog, pretty good, eh

Yeah, no, there was totally a reasonable argument for the Theriot trade.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

The Theriot trade was fine

The Boog trade was not

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Boog was gone before the club traded for Theriot

but if the overall goal was to improve the middle infield, they failed.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not correct -

Theriot was traded for in late November; Boog was traded in mid-December.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

hmm... not how I remembered it

Obviously I was wrong. I do remember Mo saying that Theriot was the starting shortstop when we traded for him, and Tony saying there would be a competition in spring training for the starting position. I just thought that meant between him and Greene. I guess all that competition went away and came back in the form of Cleto.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I remember it distinctly because I thought there was a chance

that the trade for Theriot was for a platoon partner for Skip at 2B, whie Ryan played SS. Therefore I didn’t “hate” the Theriot trade when it was made.

When Theriot was installed as the starting SS after the Boog trade, then I hated the trade.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I find it curious that Ryan Theriot

makes some of the worst defensive miscues I’ve ever seen at shortstop, is a very poor offensive player, and yet there isn’t a non-VEB clamoring for an upgrade at shortstop. He has a .300 wOBA and has been worth 0.2 WAR. His production has nearly mirrored his 2010 production.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yet...

I continue to see posts on how we should trade Colby Rasmus. When Colby Rasmus really isn’t our problem.

I guess my point is that I wish Jon Jay played SS instead of CF.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 18, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Now there's an idea!

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well he's probably not a -20 run defender

And his hitting is good enough.

I would love to move him to second.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

A Theriot/Skip platoon is just so perfect

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Or a

Theriot/Craig platoon?

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jul 18, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why would they platoon?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

As bad as Theriot is at shortstop

I imagine him to be a good defensive 2b. Though maybe Descalso is better.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jul 18, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Add TOOTBLAN to the list

I think plenty of people have expressed displeasure with Theriot. I think the best bet to get rid of him would be for Punto impress Tony by adopting some cats and/or Therior to get hurt.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jul 18, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's assuming we'll see a healthy Punto again this year.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

wait - what happened to Punto?

I was busy watching little girls play softball yesterday.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jul 18, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

i have about as much faith that we will see Nick Punto again this season as i do that we will see Sanchez. has the roster move happened yet? i assume Punto DL’d for Greene?

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Greene or Kozma

off day today, so they may not announce it until tomorrow.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

i forgot today was an off day.

right.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

he wants to know what happened to Punto

he was watching little girls play softball yesterday and hasn’t heard any update.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

did that sound creepy?

I have an 8 year old daughter who plays softball. They are funny to watch because almost all of the hits are infield hits. The highlight of the game was in the 2nd inning, both teams had double plays (LD and popup caught followed by tag out).

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jul 18, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

In my experience, most of those 'hits' are errors

"Skipper, we're losing the crowd. Put it our new novelty act."
"Darn it! I already put in the circus clown!"
"Yeah, but he bunted. Clowns are only funny when they swing away!"

by KlausChadman on Jul 18, 2011 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

instarec

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh good, I'm not the only one

I laughed out loud and then wondered if the tiredness is hitting me.

Still not a werewolf.

by clank on Jul 18, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

i did too

i rarely actually laugh from something online… this was perfectly witty.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dunna

I’ve heard a lot of people on the fast lane talk about how bad he is

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I still prefer Tyler Greene to Theriot.

Theriot might be my least favorite player of all time (other than every ‘87 Minnesota Twin). He’s a utility guy masquerading as a starting SS.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think I hate Theriot more than Thurston

Thurston at least didn’t have the entitlement (“I will pout if I get moved to second base”) that Theriot has shown in the past

Hit me up on Google+

by jd is legend on Jul 18, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I never hated Thurston. A series of mishaps/coincidences

made a AAAA guy into a starting 3B. It wasn’t his fault. He was a FA pickup – there was never a plan to make him into a starter, like there was with Theriot.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

One name. Mike Gallego.

ugh.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jul 18, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thurston wasn't really sold

As a solution to any problems. I think of him more as a depth move that ended up getting way more opportunity than anybody expected, and we all suffered for it. That’s the key difference I think. Theriot was billed as a solution to perceived problems and handed the SS job.

by Merry CRasmus on Jul 18, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

That will only become a more firmly held preference

if you have the opportunity to see Tyler Greene play in AAA. It’s like watching someone play a video game with a created player that is ridiculously toolsy.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

why the hell doesn't he do that in the Lou?

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

too much pressure?

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jul 18, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sometimes I wonder if it is mental.

I also wonder if a player that has poor contact skills and a high strikeout rate like Greene needs to be in the lineup everyday to have a chance at producing at the level he has in the minors. Whatever the reason, he has looked horrible at the plate while playing for the Cardinals.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Have you read

this article?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nope.

This is analyzing NCAA strikeout rates through the lens of the draft and Tyler Greene is listed as a player deserving of a red flag, under its conclusions. Is there a follow-up with how minor-league strikeout rates play in MLB? Is a 24% strikeout rate in AAA a huge red flag, too? I’ve never looked at this.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I haven't seen one to that effect yet.

I do think, however, that poor contact rates at any level of play is going to be a giant red flag when projecting future success. The pitchers and matchups for hitters only get tougher the closer you get to the big leagues, so if you’re having trouble making contact in A ball, chances are you’re not going to improve that in AAA.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 18, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with your.

That makes logical sense. I was kind of hoping that there was a similar study that gave us a AA or AAA strikeout rate filter point, similar to the 22% NCAA strikeout rate and 18-22% NCAA strikeout rate danger zone for prospects. How high is too high? 22% in AAA? 25% in AAA?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well

There are only 12 players in the MLB who have a strikeout rate greater than 24% this year, and Greene’s would assuredly be higher

Of those 12 players, only Adam Dunn is below replacement level

Drew Stubs – 30.0% – 2.2 WAR
Mark Reynolds – 28.6% – .5 WAR
Mike Stanton – 28.1% – 2.3 WAR
Kelly Johnson – 27.7% – 1.6 WAR
Miguel Olivo – 27.6% – .8 WAR
Carlos Pena – 27.0% – .6 WAR
Austin Jackson – 26.4% – 1.0 WAR
Nelson Cruz – 26.3% – 1.0 WAR
Peter Bourjos – 25.2% – 2.6 WAR
BJ Upton – 24.7% – 1.8 WAR
Ryan Howard – 24.4% – 1.0 WAR

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh here's a nice article

Link

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Relevant

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

So where is the danger zone?

18-22% with 22% as the red flag zone? Just like NCAA?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would say >20%

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fair enough.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

where was CJ?

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jul 18, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Beatty?

Around 22-23%

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

ok

too lazy to look for myself, thanks. Amazing you’d do that for me even though you hate me.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jul 18, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ummmmmm

I think WAR is a really bad stat to use in this evaluation. WAR encompasses defense and baserunning, two things that are decidedly un-related to strikeout rate.

I think using wOBA would be much better for this analysis.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 18, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Depends on what argument you're making

If the question is “Is strikeout rate a red flag for Major League success?” then WAR’s a perfectly fine tool to use.

If the question is “Is strikeout rate a red flag for Major League offensive success” then yeah, wOBA would be better

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

note that i haven't read anything above

but what the hell would make you believe that strikeout rate was a red flag for major league success in anything except offense? is this an actual idea?

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shut up

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

He is looking at overall value, I believe.

As Brendan Ryan demonstrated last season, a player can have an awful offensive season yet still have value. Rui is looking at strikeout rate in the overall value context while it appears fourstick would prefer to look at it simply in the offensive production context.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

i suppose

rui’s is going to be a lot less useful of an analysis than fourstick’s because you’re introducing a lot of other information that is unrelated.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because that's what we're talking about here:

Why use a metric to determine if a player is successful at defense when that metric has nothing to do with defense.

If Tyler Greene is a 2 win defensive player (assumption) and strikes out 35% of the time with a .280 wOBA, then he’s been successful in spite of his high K-rate. The correlation makes no sense when measured this way — if he wasn’t an elite defender, he wouldn’t be successful, and if he had a lower K-Rate he’d probably be more successful.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 18, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

No it's not

You could have a SS that strikes out 40% of the time but is Ozzie level good defensively, and he’s be considered a “success” via WAR but a “failure” by wOBA.

This is obviously an extreme example, but you can see what I’m getting at. High K-Rates tell you nothing about whether a player is a good defender or baserunner, they only tell you that they have a high K-rate. You seem to be presenting an argument about successes and failures of players with high K-rates. WAR is going to skew that by factoring in values that K-Rate has ZERO effect on.

Also, WAR is position adjusted. If we’re concerned solely about whether hitters with high K-rates are successful or not, we shouldn’t be concerned at all with position.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 18, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

damn, that's quite a list.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

The list is basically

Plus centerfielders and prodigious power] guys

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

how likely is that he would

strike out more than Stubbs?

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Greene seems to have an almost nonexistent pitch recognition skill.

Often he appears to just be swinging randomly and guessing completely. I actually have as much faith in Pete Kozma as Tyler Greene at this point.

http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz

by hazel on Jul 18, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

but...

They’ve both been major leaguers already.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Much better? I wouldn't go so far.

The main thing is, Greene’s issues at the plate are the kind that cause a kid to totally collapse offensively, Brandon Wood style. This year his BABIP was practically in normal range yet he was hitting in the mendoza range. The only chance he has of being valuable is either A. That his defense comes around or B. That his plate discipline improves (which it has somewhat, but not enough).

Kozma looked decent on defense (good range and arm, average hands and footwork), AND he might have an offensive profile like Nick Punto or Brendan Ryan. He’s better than Matt Pagnozzi. Kozma would need to continue to look decent on defense in addition to making a pretty substantial jump to below average on offense. That kind of a jump is about as likely as Greene’s jump.

http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz

by hazel on Jul 18, 2011 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

also

not get pujols killed.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

that was 100% Albert's fault

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jul 18, 2011 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

guess the difference

is that kozma is 23 and greene is 29

(both numbers from memory, but i know i’m close)

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
Twitter | Google+

by prophetjohn on Jul 18, 2011 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ages

Kozma is indeed 23. Greene is 27. It just seems like he’s been a prospect for 15 years.

by WizardofOz1982 on Jul 18, 2011 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

this

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd prefer Brendan Ryan to either of them.

Greene has the tools to be a good player…and none of those tools have been refined into skills. He has power, speed, and a good arm, yet he’s not an above average defender at SS, he has contact rates so bad that it saps all his value as a hitter, and he seems to have a lot of mental lapses on the field that basically create boneheaded plays.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 18, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't like Skip -

but he doesn’t grate on me the way Theriot does.

Besides, in another week or so, Skip’s wOBA will be higher than Theriot’s.

If we do anything other than release Skip in the offseason, I may start hating him more.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's where I am

My fondness for Skip on the level of personality is enough that I’m exactly screaming for his release quite yet, but I don’t want to see him back next year. Sometimes things just have to end.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

i mention how much i hate Theriot almost every time he comes up to bat now

and i think it has begun to annoy people.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Surely you jest:

Hardy has a .356 wOBA right now and is slugging .490. As a shortstop.

He’s also been an above average defender at short stop his entire career.

He hasn’t been that good — that’s laughable. He was a 2.5 WAR player last year and has been worth 2 WAR this year so far — he could be a 4-4.5 WAR player by the end of the season.

He’s only been “not very good” if you compare him to the elite players at his position, who could not have been acquired for a steak and a bag of baseballs in the offseason last year.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 18, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry

I didn’t mean he hasn’t been very good this year. He started slow but he’s poured it on. I just meant coming off last year and the way he struggled in Milwaukee at times it wasn’t a given he was going to have a great year that he is having this year and when he got off to his slow start it looked like Baltimore made bad calls on Reynolds, hardy and lee but so far 2 of those 3 have worked out well for them.

by lopey986 on Jul 18, 2011 11:54 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Unlikely

Since Escobar just signed a team friendly contract

The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun

by mob16151 on Jul 18, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

to stay in toronto

sbn’d

The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun

by mob16151 on Jul 18, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

How about just getting Barmes?

Trade Skip (lower salary) + prospect, or just prospects. HOU is in full salary dump.

Use Theriot/Craig platoon at 2B.

by gocards62 on Jul 18, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not really a fan of barmes and his .246 BA

and even so, there’s no way that tony would 1. trade skip or 2. use theriot at 2b

"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11
All the cool kids have these:
Twitter | Google+

by hr on Jul 18, 2011 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

but I don't think barmes is enough of an upgrade to warrant a trade

also, with keppinger at 2b, houston probably wouldn’t want skippy if they’re dealing barmes. they’d get a bunch of prospects and we’d still have a meh MIF.

"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11
All the cool kids have these:
Twitter | Google+

by hr on Jul 18, 2011 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

According to Fangraphs,

Barmes .246/.317./.346, wOBA .307, 1.7 WAR.

Theriot .288/.330./.344, wOBA .300, 0.2 WAR.

by gocards62 on Jul 18, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not even worth it

Trying to deal with an in division team would be a headache and that’s not enough of an upgrade to justify it.

by lopey986 on Jul 18, 2011 11:13 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Yeah, I can see that he's better, but as lopey said, it's not a huge improvement and I think we would be better off keeping our prospects than replace theriot with barmes

On another note, guess who this mystery player is: .249/.310/.304., wOBA .280, 1.5 WAR

"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11
All the cool kids have these:
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by hr on Jul 18, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would take Barmes over Theriot in a heartbeat

Barmes is just as bad as Theriot with the bat but he is really slick with the glove. All high school shortstops should watch Barmes play SS; he puts on a clinic.

I would definitely favor giving up a C prospect for Barmes; we’ve done other trades with Houston (like Feliz) so I don’t think the “intra-division” issue is an actual issue.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right now, Houston shouldn't even consider being in-division

They’re looking to move players, and they don’t plan on being competitive for the next couple years.

I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

by TBender on Jul 18, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed. I see no reason why Houston shouldn't trade with the Cards.

If Punto gets DL’d for a significant stretch, I’d really like to see a move made for Barmes.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Remember, after something like five games,

and Feliz had a gaudy slash line, when folks were heralding the trade?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I went to that Giants series with some friends

I had the redass over the idea that he would help anything, and talked about with my friends. Probably too much. A couple of my friends were with me, but we had the one contrarian, and he was pretty self-satisfied most of the weekend.

Looking it up he had a multi hit game in each of the 3 games that series. Then he hit .178/.205/.206 the rest of the way.

by Merry CRasmus on Jul 18, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Any guesses.....

on who comes up from AAA if Punto goes on the DL today, like was mentioned on the broadcast yesterday?

Injuries have KILLED us this year.

by Stanley1 on Jul 18, 2011 10:43 AM EDT reply actions  

greene

if not, kozma shudder

"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11
All the cool kids have these:
Twitter | Google+

by hr on Jul 18, 2011 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

At least with Greene

there’s still the glimmer of hope that his AAA performance will suddenly start to show up in the majors.

I’ve got enough patience in me to be ok with letting him have one more crack at it before installing him firmly in the prospect graveyard.

by Robth on Jul 18, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd LOVE to see...

Greene get the majority of the starts at SS for the remainder of the year as a make or break trial. I really don’t see any way he’s a worse player than Theriot, and could be a ++ player.

Jimmy Ballgame for 2011 RFer!!!

by cardzfanbub on Jul 18, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

That won't happen

And really, it shouldn’t. You don’t give a make or break trial to a guy who has been pretty piss poor in the majors when you are in the thick of a pennant race. Besides, everyone loves theriot and there’s just no way he’s going anywhere.

by lopey986 on Jul 18, 2011 11:56 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Yeah I agree with you.

I would still like him to replace Punto instead of Kozma.

by hittmeier on Jul 18, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

why not?

sure, it goes against conventional baseball wisdom, but prior stats would lead me to believe that over the rest of the season, Greene is going to be, at very worst, maybe half a win below replacement. i have absolutely no confidence that Ryan Theriot will accumulate even half a win above replacement the rest of the season.

you are, in the worst case scenario, losing a win over the rest of the season, with a guy who has been thought to have the tools to be worth a couple of wins before. and furthermore, we already know the weak point in this team is defense, not offense. Tyler Greene at least has the skills to be a good defensive player, even if he hasn’t shown them.

look, i know it’s not gonna happen, but that doesn’t mean it’s really a bad idea.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

and yes, i know a win is a lot-

but i would hope the chance of Greene materializing into a useful player is non-trivial. therefore, i would hope the expected value of this move would be at least close to scratch. and Tyler Greene achieving his potential is going to be worth a lot more to this team than Ryan Theriot playing at the absolute ceiling of his ability.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

two weeks?

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jul 18, 2011 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

It'll be like trading for a player. . .

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jul 18, 2011 11:10 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

you know, budda, that's exactly right.

"I wonder if I put on a uniform and told La Russa I wanted to play for him if I could be a big leaguer too?"
"that all depends. are you gritty?" "You would need a mediocre decade of MLB experience first" "do you have a goatee, are you short, and do you try really hard?" "Are you willing to play four positions terribly?"

by cschepers on Jul 18, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the way I could get on board with bringing miller up, is if we can’t acquire a starter. It’s become painfully obvious the mccellan isn’t going to work in the rotation.

by beer me on Jul 18, 2011 11:00 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

I've never understood this line of thinking.....

IF calling up Shelby is even a remote possibility, why is he not already in AAA? If we’d be willing to try him at the ML level, we should be willing to stick him in AAA.

Personally, I don’t think this is something Mo or TLR is considering at all.

by Stanley1 on Jul 18, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

You’re probably right.

by beer me on Jul 18, 2011 11:04 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I don't think they'll call him

But not everyone goes a, aa, aaa in their minor league careers. Some guys jump straight from aa to the majors if their talent level warrants it.

by lopey986 on Jul 18, 2011 11:08 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

There are generally better hitters in AA than AAA.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Is that actually the line of reasoning?

I don’t think that’s necessarily true… I think it’s mostly “If a top prospect reaches AAA, he’s not going to stay there long”

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

There may be more "prospects" in AA

but there are better, professional hitters in AAA, even if there are a bunch of AAAA players there as well.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

A Cure for Colby

I know what will fix Clobby. He needs to find himself a good ol’ slumpbuster and take care of the business.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jul 18, 2011 11:09 AM EDT reply actions  

<blockquoteHe needs to find himself a good ol’ slumpbuster and take care of the business>

Rui’s mom is free.

The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun

by mob16151 on Jul 18, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wow i fucked that block quote three different kinds of up.

The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun

by mob16151 on Jul 18, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Isnt he married with a kid?

I think that would probably cause more off field headaches for him.

by lopey986 on Jul 18, 2011 11:11 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Tongue

planted firmly in cheek.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jul 18, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, see, that could actually be a problem

You’re a young, inexperienced possibly sensitive kid. You’re away from home 50% of the time or more assuming you’ve set up the family in St. Louis. Your young inexperienced wife is out of her league raising a kid, let alone raising a kid by herself . So when you’re in the middle of a huge slump, you get to come home and hear about that the whole time. You probably come home and get the “for god’s sake take care of the kid today I’m going insane” speech.

That’ll really cheer you up.

by sdrone on Jul 18, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

Life sucks.

I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

by TBender on Jul 18, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

If colby is havin troubles at home

maybe he should read this and take a tip from the guy.

He grasped me firmly, but gently, just above my elbow and guided me into a room, his room. Then he quietly shut the door and we were alone. He approached me soundlessly, from behind, and spoke in a low, reassuring voice close to my ear.
 
“Just relax.”
 
Without warning, he reached down and I felt his strong, calloused hands start at my ankles, gently probing, and moving upward along my calves, slowly but steadily. My breath caught in my throat.
 
I knew I should be afraid, but somehow I didn’t care. His touch was so experienced, so sure. When his hands moved up onto my thighs, I gave a slight shudder, and partly closed my eyes. My pulse was pounding. I felt his knowing fingers caress my abdomen, my ribcage. And then, as he cupped my firm, full breasts in his hands, I inhaled sharply.
 
Probing, searching, knowing what he wanted, he brought his hands to my shoulders, slid them down my tingling spine and into my panties. Although I knew nothing about this man, I felt oddly trusting and expectant. This is a man, I thought. A man used to taking charge. A man not used to taking No for an answer. A man who would tell me what he wanted. A man who would look into my soul and say . . . .
 
“Okay ma’am, you can board your flight now.”

by ridgesee on Jul 18, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions   5 recs

flagged

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh hell no

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

but

that post was to show how silly the topic of bringing is he wife and child was in the first

by ridgesee on Jul 18, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

i was joking, no worries

if i ever actually flagged a post i wouldn’t post flagged :P

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fantastic

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm assuming the young inexperienced wife has some pretty nice coaching

With her husband making a half million a year + endorsements (does Rasmus make any money off comericials).

I doubt Mama Rasmus is struggling to raise the kid, and I see no reason to believe there are problems at home. More speculative BS.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nice coaching from whom?

Sure it’s speculative, I didn’t say it wasn’t. However, I can certainly look back on how I would have done at 24 years old.

We both know Colby hasn’t gone out and hired help. All I’m saying is that the boy probably has no “center” to his life to help get through stuff like this.

by sdrone on Jul 18, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Coaching was a euphamism

For maid, or nanny, or family member who’ll help her out. I’m guessing Rasmus and Co has much more of a center than millions of other young, poor, couples, trying to raise kids.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

There is nothing wrong with Colby...

This is the most infuriating thing of the whole Colby mess.

There is nothing wrong with him. He’s just had a terrible BABIP during his slump. He’s still hitting line drives. They’ve just been right at people.

The real problem is that people have an insanely inflated view of his abilities. He’s more likely to be a .260/.350/.450 or so hitter when he has a BABIP of .300

It’s just right now, for the season, it’s around .280, so his BA average is a little lower. But he’s never going to be a .300 hitter. Last year his BABIP was .354 and he only managed a BA of .275…

This is why he needs to go to another city – the expectations for him here are just unreasonable…

by DiscoJer on Jul 18, 2011 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

umm... his defense does sorta suck.

Has romantic inclinations toward Tony Cruz.

by a fink on Jul 18, 2011 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also

I want to lay pipe to hope Solo

The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun

by mob16151 on Jul 18, 2011 11:11 AM EDT reply actions  

"lay pipe"

is really an underappreciated & underutilized euphemism.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jul 18, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

the only big problem with it

is its close similarity to “lay cable”, a favorite euphemism of mine for taking a dump.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not to be confused with "fixing the cable"

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

r on ESPN again.

The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun

by mob16151 on Jul 18, 2011 11:12 AM EDT reply actions  

I quit

Apparently I’ve forgotten how to use a goddamn computer lol

The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun

by mob16151 on Jul 18, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

oh, don't quit now.

I’m sure there are more ways to reply fail

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

what about ubaldo jimenez

Would the cost be too much?

by beer me on Jul 18, 2011 11:16 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Well they're asking for Montero + Nova + C prospect(that's a random guess, but I don't think that's unreasonable)

Then ours would start with Shelby/Carlos + Matthew Adams + C Prospect

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think I would be ok with a trade involving Carlos for a player like ubaldo. Ubaldo is still under team control for a few years and Carlos is still far enough out to be a question. If the cards were of the win now mentality this seems like a good deal and would still give us one of the top rotations for the next few seasons.

by beer me on Jul 18, 2011 11:23 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Yeah, he's signed for one more year and then two more club options

I might pull the trigger on that.

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

That would give us wainwright, jimenez, carpenter (maybe), westbrook, and miller/Lynn next season. That’s a damn sexy rotation.

by beer me on Jul 18, 2011 11:31 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Woah chalk that up to it being Monday. Toss westbrook/carpenter

by beer me on Jul 18, 2011 11:34 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

you're still putting an awful lot on WW coming back full throttle

barely a year after TJ surgery. no thanks. I don’t trust to miracles and luck that much.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Jaime did it

*shrug

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

call me when you get to be 30

and tell me how quickly you heal up when compared to 21-22. there is a difference.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

k whats your number

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

867-5309

this isn’t the same, but it’s close: one of my nephews is a pitcher in college. he tore up his shoulder pretty good. Paletta did the surgery and essentially did three surgeries at the same time. It was bad enough that he had to carry this water-cooled sling with him to class every day and plug it in to help keep the swelling down. he’s all of 20 and barely 6 months later he’s throwing. if that had happened to a 30 yr old, I seriously doubt it would be that quick of a turn around.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

yup.

I’ve had a torn groin for over a year now even after PT.

www.stlgatekeepers.com
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jul 18, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Go find a sports hernia specialist

Seriously

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

this.

you need to get that looked at.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

actually the 2nd sports ortho said I needed surgery

1st guy looked at the MRI and said it was a “mild adductor strain” put me through 6 weeks of PT, never got better and I wasted the 2010 season.

2nd guy looked at the same MRI and asked when I can do surgery, I told him MAYBE after Nationals in Oct. or until it completely falls off the bone :-)

I’m 31, not a chance I’m taking myself out for a year…

www.stlgatekeepers.com
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jul 18, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

If it's a sports hernia, which is sounds like it is, you'd be out about 6 weeks

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

it's not a tumor..at all

It’s just torn off the bone partially and has to be re-attached. My teammate, however, just had sports hernia or maybe just hernia surgery and was only out for a 6 weeks.

www.stlgatekeepers.com
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jul 18, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Where did tumor come from?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

kindergarden cop quote, ftw

www.stlgatekeepers.com
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jul 18, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

brilliant!

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jul 18, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

not a sports hernia rui

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jul 18, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're not a sports hernia

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

shouldn't you still be celebrating your world cup win?

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jul 18, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

h8 u

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

poor Americans

I haven’t seen that many disappointed chicks since I volunteered for a date raffle

HEY-O

by peppermartin on Jul 18, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's like gdm at a speed dating convention.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK now I feel terrible for saying that.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

ouch

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I know!

I’m a jerk.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't say that you're a jerk.

you may have had a jerk moment.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Simpson'd Ozzie Smith avatar

gives him a lot of pseudo-jerk flexibility.

Still not a werewolf.

by clank on Jul 18, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not predictive.

"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor

by Alxfritz on Jul 18, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I was trying to go off of the prior two years

of my reading his comments so as to head off an SSS arguments. Or do I need 3 for a true reading?

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Besides, maybe I only got a chance to try pulling off that kind of comment

because I have a wide commenting range? In that case you could hardly hold the error against me.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

hahahaha

that’s not getting old for a while yet

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

did you forget? Waino is going to be pitching in October

in OCTOBER!!

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jul 18, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree, unless the surgery didn’t go well.

by beer me on Jul 18, 2011 12:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

according to Heyman (yes, ok...)

Reds package for Jimenez “could be” Alonso, Wood, and Volquez. that sounds similar, value wise, to Martinez + Adams + C prospect to me.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

If the Rox don't want Montero, why would they want Alonso?

If O’Dowd fails to get one of the Reds’ catchers in that deal he should be fired.

Sign Carlos Silva!!!

by guayzimi on Jul 18, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really?

That’s a pretty big haul for Jimenez, assuming Volquez is on track to get his head out of his ass.

http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz

by hazel on Jul 18, 2011 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm dubious that he ever will

and especially so at altitude. I can’t see his control problems actually getting BETTER in Colorado.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 19, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Because

Alonso is actually hitting a .879 OPS at AAA, can play 1b (Helton is retiring eventually), and isn’t too bad of a defender (Although he’s been playing OF recently if I’m not mistaken).

Montero’s value, however, has taken a nosedive recently. He hasn’t hit at all at Triple A (.760 OPS), still can’t defend to save his life, and the Yankees don’t want to sell low on him.

I would strongly prefer the Reds’ package if I were the Rockies.

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)

by Taskmaster on Jul 18, 2011 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

hmm...

the Reds getting Jimenez without giving up a catcher would be like us getting him without MorM… I’d be thrilled with that.

Sign Carlos Silva!!!

by guayzimi on Jul 18, 2011 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

ugh, no thank you

Jimenez scares the shit out of me

I'm sorry I impugned your cocksmanship.
Twitter | Google+

by purple_haze on Jul 18, 2011 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

i feel the same way

just doing a little comparison

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
Twitter | Google+

by prophetjohn on Jul 18, 2011 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

this

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the entire time."
THE BATMAN | TOWEL BOY.
Twitter|Google+

by CodyG on Jul 18, 2011 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

please please please let the reds make that trade.

"chipper jones grounds out, third baseman albert pujols to first baseman mark hamilton." 5.1.11 "carlos pena grounds into double play, second baseman allen craig to shortstop tyler greene to first baseman albert pujols." 5.12.11

by tom s. on Jul 19, 2011 12:19 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Yes

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jul 18, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Especially with the velocity drop gocards62 noted.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

he's just not that great

we’d have to overpay imo

FIRE TONY RASMUS

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 18, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jeff Francis

makes the most sense. Lefty starter that is interchangable with McClellan. Either one can be the reliever. (Guessing on Francis but he is a lefty!) Solid guy in his walk year at a reasonable contract.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jul 18, 2011 11:21 AM EDT reply actions  

interchangable? so we have a 5th starter platoon?

Maybe they could take turns starting and finishing games for each other. McClellan starts and throws 6IP then Francis closes it out by throwing 3IP. Then 5 days later they switch and Francis starts and McClellan closes.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jul 18, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ha ha

With Francis you either have a LMOGY (Lefty Many Out Guy) reliever or a starter.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jul 18, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

done

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
Twitter | Google+

by prophetjohn on Jul 18, 2011 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

If LOY was an annual award instead of some contrived 3-year plus UID mess

this guy would win.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Jul 18, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

he is also apparently a big SBN guy?

welcome, Justin. your posts and recs are cryptic- i appreciate that.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry

Just testing stuff. Ignore me. :)

by justin on Jul 18, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can confirm that he is a big SBN guy

Because we work together.

And he is fat.

Testicle-exploding shit storms, to date: T.E.S.S. '08, T.E.S.S. '09, T.E.S.S. '10

by dan on Jul 18, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

wait

you work for SBN?

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jul 18, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

bye

no

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jul 18, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

there are whole swathes of this post I probably shouldn't read

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jul 18, 2011 2:04 PM EDT reply actions  

Would you say you have a plethora of posts?

www.stlgatekeepers.com
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jul 18, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

And you'd be right.

I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

by TBender on Jul 18, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hate Joe Strauss

I was just at the mothership catching up and read the latest trash from Strauss stirring things up about Colby/TRasmus/TLR. I didn’t know it was a Strauss article when I started reading it or I would not have read it. Is there a way to block Strauss articles so they don’t appear? I wish.

Can we trade strauss? I’m sure this idea has been brought up before. I would be willing to contribute to a fund to pay someone to take him off our hands.

Age is an issue of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter. Mark Twain

by spfldbird on Jul 18, 2011 2:46 PM EDT reply actions  

But we'd get a Brennamen back and maybe Brantley

and do we really want that?

I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

by TBender on Jul 18, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Someone tweeted that Brantley predicted Craig would pinch hit during a game over the weekend.

Ya know, even though Craig is on the DL.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Honestly

why would someone accept Joe Strauss in a trade? I mean, it be easier to send off a package of Schumaker, Westbrook, and Theriot to a team than it would be to trade Strauss.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes, agree. That's why I would add in some cash.

Age is an issue of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter. Mark Twain

by spfldbird on Jul 18, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

moving clockwise from top left...

Freese, Skippy… Holliday???

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought it was Holliday, too.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

not to mention the subject line

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jul 18, 2011 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's pretty awesome.

Neat to think that Hobie Landrith, Billy Muffett and Benny Valenzuela became Lou Brock.

by WizardofOz1982 on Jul 18, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow...in the last 10 years,

The only players the Cardinals have been able to extract from Central Division clubs via trade have been:

Mike DeJean
Jamey Wright
Jeff Fassero
Pedro Feliz

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

in the 10 years prior to that the list is:

Mike Morgan (Todd Zeile)
Jeff Brantley (Dmitri Young)
Fernando Vina (Juan Acevedo)
Jason Christenson (Jack Wilson)

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

good grief

Tallet has been truly awful this year. McClellan needs to replace him in the bullpen.

also, lots of commenting on an off day. good to see!

FIRE TONY RASMUS

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 18, 2011 4:46 PM EDT reply actions  

it's Monday

what else i am supposed to do at work besides browse VEB?

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

101 and trending down.

It’s really just reversion at work.

Has romantic inclinations toward Tony Cruz.

by a fink on Jul 18, 2011 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I don't like wComment+

it just doesn’t tell us enough about how good the comments actually are

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions   4 recs

there it is

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yours apparently was.

It appeared rec’d.

Still not a werewolf.

by clank on Jul 18, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

What's our OACIP?

That’s On-topic Average for Comments In Play.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

is there no baseball today? geez...

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 67

by d-dee on Jul 18, 2011 4:50 PM EDT reply actions  

Chris Duncan wants to trade Rasmus to the Nationals for Desmond and Storen.

I’m starting to get the feeling that he hasn’t gotten over 2009 yet…

Also, Skip Schumaker is ready to break out, always!

"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor

by Alxfritz on Jul 18, 2011 4:50 PM EDT reply actions  

if he's about to break out, he should go see a dermatologist

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 67

by d-dee on Jul 18, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Goodness forbid Skip's face be marred

it’s the only positive contribution he has to make to the team right now.

Joe Strauss is the greatest journalist since Edward R. Murrow.
Also, I would kiss Rui on the web cam.

by azruavatar on Jul 18, 2011 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

really?

"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor

by Alxfritz on Jul 18, 2011 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

yea...

actually I think the Melky trade was something like Rasmus and Boggs for Melky and Soria. The Alex Gonzalez trade proposal was straight up. Left Karraker nearly speachless

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

that's, um, weird.

"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor

by Alxfritz on Jul 18, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

yea..

but he always tries to act like Colby is his buddy….there is just no way. The dude just doesn’t like Colby it seems.

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah it is

I haven’t heard him on the radio yet, but everyone in the media seems to think he’s doing a bang up job with it….what you guys are saying suggests maybe not so much.

by Merry CRasmus on Jul 18, 2011 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

As long as he's not discussing Rasmus, he's okay.

And okay is worlds better than most analysts.

"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor

by Alxfritz on Jul 18, 2011 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really enjoy listening to Chris Duncan...

Honestly I won’t be suprised if he eventually lands a job at ESPN or MLB network….but he needs to stop making these trade proposals

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I enjoy listening to him

His co-workers at 101 are always remarking on his dedication – he shows up multiple hours early to look up info and do show prep (they jokingly say there’s a batting cage somewhere in the building). Also, he’s fairly candid when they ask him questions about his baseball career (how did it feel to win the WS as a rookie, are you bitter about the injuries you got dealt, etc).

Honestly, he seems to have carved out a 2nd career for himself thus far, and for that I’m happy for him. He seems like a genuinely nice guy who caught a bad break with injury, but didn’t let it get him down.

by avs18fan on Jul 18, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

His analysis is also

leaps and bounds better than Andy Van Slyke’s or Jason Simontacchi’s…He’s very entertaining and his silly trade proposals or almost endearing in a way….its kinda like…“i know the game, I’ll share my experiences, I’ll give you a little sneak peak on what its like in the clubhouse….but I have NO IDEA how the business side works”. Also, I believe he was the first to mention Cleto as a possible call-up. Everyone was like “HUH?!”. 2 days later Cleto was on the roster.

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

So, VEB breaks the Duncan Trade story

Then Duncan breaks the Cleto call-up story. I think the logical next step is for Cleto to announce the Cardinals will soon trade Theriot, Samuel, and Kozma for Jose Reyes.

Keeping my fingers crossed!

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well

Ian Desmond is a upgrade over Theriot, but just barely, and that pretty much says it all.

by Merry CRasmus on Jul 18, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

So,

is Chris Duncan just reading MLBTR & Ken Rosenthal speculation aloud on the air? Or, does he just take their dots and connect them?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dirty Dan's Defense

I wasn’t around this weekend. What was VEB’s consensus of Dirty Dan’s D at SS? He’s probably still below league avg, but he appeared to have more range and obviously a stronger arm than Theriot.

by Handsome B Wonderful on Jul 18, 2011 5:08 PM EDT reply actions  

Made some good plays, one really crappy play.

Needs to get transitions straight but he looks better than Theriot.

http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz

by hazel on Jul 18, 2011 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

if anyone can play second, and our second baseman

Can play short, by the transitive property, anyone can play shortstop.

QED.

"chipper jones grounds out, third baseman albert pujols to first baseman mark hamilton." 5.1.11 "carlos pena grounds into double play, second baseman allen craig to shortstop tyler greene to first baseman albert pujols." 5.12.11

by tom s. on Jul 19, 2011 12:26 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

FYI - Cards versus NLC

vs CHI = 5-1 (9 left)
vs CIN = 5-7 (3 left)
vs HOU = 6-2 (7 left)
vs MIL = 2-4 (12 left)
vs PIT = 1-2 (13 left)

I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

by TBender on Jul 18, 2011 5:20 PM EDT reply actions  

Those Cincy games are in the book.

What we need to do is to remind the humble franchises in Milwaukee and Pittsburgh who they really are.

Has romantic inclinations toward Tony Cruz.

by a fink on Jul 18, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

we are at least as good as those teams right now. probably better. if we get a starter…

FIRE TONY RASMUS

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 18, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd say that we need to pound the Pirates into submission

and just play .550 against everyone else.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 19, 2011 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Jake Westbrook...

This offseason, any chance we could do a salary dump exchange? What if Seattle was going to make the money even for Chone Figgins? I just really want next year’s rotation to be: Wainwright, Carpenter, Garcia, Lohse, and Shelby Miller….Also, considering the possibility that K-Mac’s salary soars after 3 solid relief seasons and an avererage season of starting….Isn’t it possible he gets non-tendered? Do we really want to pay $4 mill+ for K-Mac out of the pen?

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 5:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Westbrook

ERA: 5.26
FIP: 4.57
xFIP: 3.99

With those big gaps, it’s a bit early to be getting rid of Westbrook. We might be better served getting rid of the SS and 2B.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah...

but that doesn’t solve the rotation situation for 2012. More Carp and Miller. Less Westy.

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know Chone Figgins is hitting .183/.230/.243, right?

And that he has made 10 errors already?

TRADE FOR RICH HARDEN

by mojowo11 on Jul 18, 2011 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm aware Figgins has been terrible.

He’s just the first one I thought of as a salary dump option coming back. It seems the only way we can ditch Westbrook, unless someone is willing to deal a no-name prospect for him and eat his salary, which I think is considerably less likely.

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also, I don't think Figgins is THAT bad...

the last 2 seasons prior to this year he total 175 BB’s and 84 SB’s. His career line is .281/.352/.368. If we could get him for what we were going to pay Westbrook anyway or maybe slightly more I don’t think its a terrible move. He could perhaps be a solid lead-off hitter and play 2B. I’d envision .260/.345/.355 with about 30 steals. That would open up the rotation to include Shelby and we can re-work Carpenter’s option into a 2 year deal. We would essentially be paying 4-5 million per season for 2 years for Figgins, While Seattle would be paying 15-17 million for 1 year of Westbrook and to get Figgins off their team. Bad deal for Seattle, but they did something similar with the Silva/Bradley deal while taking on one of the worst clubhouse presences of all time.

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

6th best organization in baseball

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wish this were true.

Ryan Theriot as Fish bait, heh.

Still not a werewolf.

by clank on Jul 18, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

i *might* be dating alison brie

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
Twitter | Google+

by prophetjohn on Jul 18, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's Brie Time BABY!

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jul 18, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

You might.

I still don’t understand the appeal. She looks like a chipmunk.

by WizardofOz1982 on Jul 18, 2011 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

i've been saying that these trade scenarios are silly all along

mo’ has said all along that colby isn’t available.

doin’ what strauss wants…

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
Twitter | Google+

by prophetjohn on Jul 18, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Crossing fingers for that August 1

“Rasmus fails to attract serious offers” article.

by Merry CRasmus on Jul 18, 2011 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

that is good

but I want a starting pitcher too…

FIRE TONY RASMUS

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 18, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Boo

I for one am sick of the Rasmus drama. He needs to go for the good of the city, the organization, and more importantly, for his own good.

He’s never ever going to live up to expectations here. He can’t. He’s just not that good. This season is what you should expect from him, not last year (where he had a crazy high BABIP).

I just don’t get the point in making him miserable and his life a living hell for the next few years, just to prove a point in the supposed Sabermetric vs Old School debate going on in the Cardinals organization (and media).

Especially when you are probably only saving .10 between him and Jay. (Rasmus is probably a .340 wOBA player, and I think Jay is a .330 on)

by DiscoJer on Jul 18, 2011 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

prefatory nonsense, unsupported generalization.

Misrepresentation. Unsupported genralization.

Thanks for your contribution.

"chipper jones grounds out, third baseman albert pujols to first baseman mark hamilton." 5.1.11 "carlos pena grounds into double play, second baseman allen craig to shortstop tyler greene to first baseman albert pujols." 5.12.11

by tom s. on Jul 19, 2011 12:32 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

If I'm nexdef'd on this, I apologize.

Punto will not be placed on the DL, “at least for now”:

“The exam he had didn’t show anything had to be done now — like cut him or anything — but you see him make that throw,‘’ La Russa said Saturday night. "He’s either got it in the back of his mind or there’s something there, so I think we need to replace him.

Punto later admitted that pain, rather than fear of it, was the cause.

“Right now we’re taking it day by day based on how he feels,” general manager John Mozeliak said Sunday.

Asked what may have caused the change in course based on Saturday’s comments, Mozeliak said, “He feels better.”

Punto, a switch-hitter, insisted before Sunday’s game, “I can run and I can swing a bat,” but acknowledged some discomfort when swinging lefthanded. If Punto remains unavailable to play in the field, the Cardinals carry only one extra infielder available for defense.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 5:52 PM EDT reply actions  

woah

that’s surprising. thanks.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Given our record with injury management

I give it no more than three days till the diagnosis escalates to acute liver failure or “exploding arm syndrome” or something.

by Robth on Jul 18, 2011 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

this is different though

people were reporting he might be out for the year. anything short of that is positive.

"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz

by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lupus

I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

by TBender on Jul 18, 2011 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

IT'S NEVER LUPUS!

"I wonder if I put on a uniform and told La Russa I wanted to play for him if I could be a big leaguer too?"
"that all depends. are you gritty?" "You would need a mediocre decade of MLB experience first" "do you have a goatee, are you short, and do you try really hard?" "Are you willing to play four positions terribly?"

by cschepers on Jul 18, 2011 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

sounds like Punto doesn't want to go to the DL

and testing aren’t showing enough to force him to go.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is ridicilous...

The guy apparently can’t throw.

by DiscoJer on Jul 18, 2011 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

larussa must have been being sarcastic

he thinks that their defensive specialists should never make any throwing errors. like ever.

FIRE TONY RASMUS

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 18, 2011 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

At the end of the day is a hobbled Punto worse than Tyler Greene or Pete Kozma?

I’m not so sure that he is.

Joe Strauss is the greatest journalist since Edward R. Murrow.
Also, I would kiss Rui on the web cam.

by azruavatar on Jul 18, 2011 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

today is an offday?

3 days after the all star break? which was a game longer for the cards than other teams?

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
Twitter | Google+

by prophetjohn on Jul 18, 2011 5:57 PM EDT reply actions  

yep

i hate off days.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jul 18, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

haha...

texter on 101 just called John Mozeilak “Young Ben Stein”….I like it

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 6:12 PM EDT reply actions  

i dunno if that's a compliment

because stein is a well respected economist-type or an insult because he’s exceptionally dry

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
Twitter | Google+

by prophetjohn on Jul 18, 2011 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

a comment on MLBTR, re: colby
his dad also said his son wants to spend the rest of his career in STL from how much he enjoys it here. From the interview on 101espn com from a few days ago

true?

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
Twitter | Google+

by prophetjohn on Jul 18, 2011 6:20 PM EDT reply actions  

No

It was actually like “Up until I heard about Colby’s trade request last year, I thought Colby was happy here and wanted to spend the rest of his career in St. Louis”

by DiscoJer on Jul 18, 2011 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

lolol
it’s clear Theriot did jab his hips and pelvis toward the umpire in an attempt to make contact

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2011/07/ryan_theriot_ejection_cardinals_reds.php

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
Twitter | Google+

by prophetjohn on Jul 18, 2011 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

more
Theriot was ejected not for making contact with Muchlinski, but rather because he used a certain 10-letter word that is a no-no with umpires. (Hint: it rhymes with rock-chucker.)

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
Twitter | Google+

by prophetjohn on Jul 18, 2011 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

He didn't call the ump a rock-chucker at first

He said it was a rock-chucking call! That’s different. But then the ump wouldn’t let it go and you know how that turned out.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Been away for the weekend

Quick, i need to know every thing thats happened in the world of baseball since the all star break ended.

All i want to do, is get close to you and wake up in the early morning dew

by Aranathor on Jul 18, 2011 6:54 PM EDT reply actions  

There may have been pelvic contact, which could result in a suspension.

Yes, really.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

At the very least, there was thrusting.

Has romantic inclinations toward Tony Cruz.

by a fink on Jul 18, 2011 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not gonna lie, this is getting kind of erotic.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

or possibly, a date.

"chipper jones grounds out, third baseman albert pujols to first baseman mark hamilton." 5.1.11 "carlos pena grounds into double play, second baseman allen craig to shortstop tyler greene to first baseman albert pujols." 5.12.11

by tom s. on Jul 19, 2011 12:36 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions   2 recs

New Thread

LINK

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 18, 2011 7:21 PM EDT reply actions  

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