By Acquiring a Starter, the St. Louis Cardinals Could Upgrade in Two Areas
For the fans of contending clubs, Christmas takes place at the end of July. Unlike the slow burn of winter's Hot Stove, the trade deadline's window is a comparatively short one lasting from the All-Star break's close to July's final day. The Brewers opened the trade season this year with the acquisition for branded closer K-Rod in the minutes just after the clock struck midnight on the day of the All-Star Game and so ending the commissioner's media blackout. Twitter, blogs, and media pot-stirrers then posed the question of whether John Mozeliak would "respond" to the Brewers' move. Thankfully, Mozeliak is far too shrewd an operator to overreact to Milwaukee obtaining a reliever who will throw about 25 innings from here through season's end. The Cardinal GM should be in no rush; after all, his ballclub has only just recently become collectively healthy enough to field the roster of Opening Day.
It's an easy thing for us fans to get caught up in a seemingly season-long narrative, to play a familiar chord upon a familiar outcome, even if the players are different. Mozeliak and the Cardinals deserve praise for identifying weakness and eliminating it earlier this season by outrighting faded veterans Miguel Batista and Ryan Franklin and replacing them with arms from the farm system. This was addition by subtraction as well as an upgrade in terms of talent. Lance Lynn has been very good since being re-boarding the Memphis Shuttle and returning to St. Louis. Lynn and Jason Motte comprise a nasty duo of set-up men. Even so, it has been difficult for fans to let the Batista/Franklin meltdowns fade from memory. Ryan Franklin blowing saves in April and Miguel Batista giving up go-ahead runs in May and June have nothing to do with the current bullpen. As Azruavatar noted yesterday, sometimes you just lose a game. Nonetheless, there were voices in St. Louis openly demanding to know why the Cardinals were not in on the proven closer with the movie-script nickname of "K-Rod" and the bell continues to be rung for the acquisition of a veteran right-handed reliever. Mozeliak should not answer that bell.
If Mozeliak inquired on Rodriguez at all, I hope he had only cursory talks with the Mets about Rodriguez and that he does not overpay for another right-handed reliever. Even before the organization again shut down Eduardo Sanchez during his rehab stint due to a lighting up of his previous shoulder discomfort, the St. Louis bullpen featured a collection of righties that have put together seasons on par with that of the newest addition to the Milwaukee relief corps. Here is a comparison of the right-handed relievers' stats heading into action on Sunday, July 17, 2011:
|
Reliever |
K/9 |
BB/9 |
ERA |
FIP |
xFIP |
|
Rodriguez |
9.69 |
3.30 |
3.09 |
2.94 |
3.17 |
|
Boggs |
8.91 |
2.97 |
3.24 |
2.93 |
3.17 |
|
Lynn |
12.00 |
0.75 |
2.25 |
1.63 |
1.43 |
|
Motte |
8.75 |
2.50 |
2.50 |
2.55 |
3.36 |
|
Salas |
9.07 |
2.17 |
2.56 |
2.94 |
3.32 |
|
Sanchez |
10.36 |
5.02 |
1.88 |
3.10 |
4.04 |
*I included Sanchez in the chart even though he has been ominously shutdown again due to shoulder discomfort. I am not counting on his return; however, at the time of the Rodriguez trade, Sanchez was in the high-90s with his fastball down in Springfield and looked to be on his way to rejoining the St. Louis relief corps in the near future.
For two players to be named later, the Mets shipped Omar Minaya's worst signing to the Brewers where Rodriguez will--actually, no one seems to know what his role will be in the Milwaukee 'pen, but he will be in it. There was some confusion initially, as well, regarding a vesting option in Rodriguez's contract that would be triggered after games finished and guarantee him a 2012 salary of $17.5 million--more than Matt Holliday's 2012 salary. In the wake of the bullpen reformation, the Cardinals are not in need of a high-priced right-handed reliever, whether that arm be K-Rod or Heath Bell (with his 6.63 K/9), who will only give them what they already have in production. The club currently has four righties putting together very good seasons.
The south side of the bullpen continues to be a different story. Once-effective veteran LOOGY Trever Miller has walked far too many left-handed batters, who are hitting for a slash line of .214/.353/.310/.662 against him. The double-oh in LOOGY stands for "one out" and allowing an OBP of .353 when facing left-handed batters as a LOOGY is simply unacceptable. Brian Tallet has been relegated to the disabled list and, during a test meant to check his ribs, was diagnosed with a kidney disease. While on the active roster, his performance was one of a wounded LOOGY with lefties hitting for a .261/.370/.696/1.066 line against him. Wisely, the Cardinals summoned lefty reliever Raul Vales from Memphis to see what he offers. In extremely limited action, he has done little to lead one to think he can add much due to a wildness that has allowed the following line against him for left-handed batters (in a mere 12 PA): .222/.417/.222/.639 and a 7.20 BB/9 overall. Here are the lefties' overall stats, which further illustrate their poor performances.
|
Reliever |
K/9 |
BB/9 |
ERA |
FIP |
xFIP |
LHB OPS Against |
|
Miller |
5.17 |
5.74 |
4.02 |
4.94 |
5.91 |
.662 |
|
Tallet |
6.23 |
3.46 |
8.31 |
7.20 |
5.18 |
1.066 |
|
Valdes |
12.60 |
7.20 |
3.60 |
3.16 |
4.10 |
.639 |
Meanwhile, in the starting rotation, as Chris Carpenter has surged and Jaime Garcia stabilized, Kyle Lohse, Jake Westbrook, and Kyle McClellan have scuffled of late. When compared to the starting rotation's 3.75 FIP, the Cards' starter ERA of 3.92 perhaps reflects a lackluster defense that ranks in the bottom five of baseball in terms of team UZR. One proposed way of bolstering the bullpen as well as the rotation is acquiring an upgrade over reliever-turned-starter Kyle McClellan and moving McClellan back to the bullpen; in so doing, making him a reliever-turned-starter-turned-reliever. Underwhelming peripherals as a starter and recent poor results*, when coupled with his success against left-handed batters, make this a palatable option that would address two areas of need.
*In a surprisingly candid quote in the Post-Dispatch, Duncan said, "The only thing that would make you think that way (with McClellan) would be if his performances made you think that way. I certainly wasn't thinking that way in April and May. But here in July he hasn't been quite the same pitcher."
As the following chart demonstrates, McClellan is that rarest of pitchers, the right-handed LOOGY:
|
Season |
LHB BAA |
LHB OBPA |
LHB SLGA |
LHB OPSA |
|
2008 |
.238 |
.321 |
.385 |
.706 |
|
2009 |
.198 |
.309 |
.245 |
.554 |
|
2010 |
.204 |
.287 |
.306 |
.592 |
|
2011 |
.208 |
.265 |
.329 |
.594 |
Tony La Russa is a manager with a library of binders containing statistical information on match-ups and splits. McClellan's success against opposing left-handed batters is undoubtedly known to him. (If nothing else, the manner in which La Russa deployed K-Mac as a reliever and the argument in favor of moving him to the rotation evidence this.) The flip-side of the managerial flexibility coin that led him to convert McClellan to a starter in the first place would seem to allow for an upgrade to the rotation that would allow the Cardinals to shift McClellan back to the 'pen--improving both units. It seems a most La Russan maneuver.
This may very well be Plan A for the Cardinals as the trade deadline approaches. Jon Morosi has tweeted that sources tell him the Cardinals have been "one of the most aggressive teams in baseball as far as looking for starters," a focus that seems appropriate, especially given the thin trade market right now for left-handed relievers. If the Cardinals can acquire a starting pitcher with a decent strikeout rate and with an ERA and a FIP likely to be lower than Kyle McClellan, reliever-turned-starter, over the season's final months--that is, a true No. 2 or No. 3 starter--it would serve to simultaneously improve both the rotation and the bullpen. As presently constructed (and, as always, depending on health), the Cardinals can win the National League Central. With an upgrade to the rotation, they would emerge from a convoluted divisional race as the frontrunners.
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Comments
We must
outrun the pirates.
Do it for our grandfathers, they did’t fight WW2 just so we could finish behind the buccos in the division.
The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun
"recent stories"
http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/7/17/2279239/get-a-brain-morans
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
"check the box score? also, no!"
very funny….well done actually waaay too well done…the twitter thing is actually sad i hope for brannon’s sake he wasnt planning the article that long just to make random tweets…and now i hate jason brannon
(ps. wish i got this meme before because it took me e whiloe to get some context/synopsis on this author and on the picture, for those on this daily im sure it was a good read :) )
by guillermozeliak on Jul 18, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Holy. Crap.
That is amazing.
After some prodding, he agreed to an interview on the condition that I buy him two KFC Famous Bowls™.
Oh my god lolololol
What do you mean by “the little things”?
For a perfect example, just look at one of the greatest teams ever assembled: the 2006 World Champion St. Louis Cardinals. That team had David Eckstein, Yadier Molina, So Taguchi, and Aaron Miles. That’s a Jew [sic], a Mexican [sic], a Chinaman [sic], and a regular American. It was a variable [sic] “League of Nations” of doing the little things.
Hit me up on Google+
by jd is legend on Jul 18, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
That's the kind of group that, for various reasons, would try to pass a treaty banning WAR
So he’s got a pretty good point!
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
I'm guessing this is what Theriot called the umpire that got him ejected.
Likely griped about his people’s ruttin’ mutton weddings, too.
Still not a werewolf.
Acquiring a starter in order to create a right handed loogy would fit this season perfectly...
Regarding the “option Rasmus” idea floated by Bernie, aside from whether this would benefit Colby at all, do you think the Cards should ship him out for a month simply to gain his rights for the entire 2015 season?
Sign Carlos Silva!!!
This strikes me as a bad idea.
Not as bad an idea as trading him during this season, but optioning him would, in my opinion, mean that the Cardinals will be trading him. To me, it’s akin to a girlfriend telling you that you need a break from the relationship to figure out what you want—a trial break-up—which inevitably irreparably damages the relationship and makes the break-up a certainty. Also, I have no idea what optioning Rasmus does to his value. I’ve now come full circle. Trading him during this season is probably a better idea than optioning him, in my mind. If I were the GM, I wouldn’t do either. (But, I’m also the guy who had Adam Dunn on his fantasy team until last week, so…)
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I agree with bgh totally
and I have mixed feeling about trading him. Don’t do it unless someone will
give fair value in return.
who in their right mind is going to give fair-value
or, more precisely, what we think is fair-value for a guy hitting .241? They are going to milk that to death to get our price down to what they want.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, you know...
…and the one before that, etc.
So we should refuse to trade Rasmus because
he’s playing poorly, yet we would have never considered trading him if he played well. Under what conditions do we consider trading him?
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
ok
his last arb year when it is clear he isn’t going to re-sign with us because two thirds of the fans hate him because he somehow reminds them of JD Drew, then we can trade him for another Adam Wainwright and Jason Marquis.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
St Louis cardinals have finally acquired a starter. I thought that they were never going to get one, now we can all say that they have improved in some of the key areas.
Halloween World
but seriously
to answer your question. The time to trade a player is when
A.) Another team is offer more than what your perceived future value of said player is.
B.) The drop off between the player, and what you have backing up the player, is less than the upgrade you will be receiving in return. (IE, You trade colby for J. Reyes because the drop off between Colby and Jay is far less than the drop off between Reyes and Theriot)
Grit != flat out sucking.
Exactly...
I agree 100%. Jay can replace him without a huge drop off, so the replacement is there. Jay is also very cheap for the next few years. I guess for me that makes Rasmus a much more tradeable commodity. I’d give him up if we can replace him with a shortstop/starting pitcher that was equal in trade value.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
When stacked up
agains the expectations that the scouts, team, fans, and us here at VEB have for him, he’s playing very poorly
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
the right answer is: when someone offers us
Something more valuable to this club than colby rasmus is to this club. Just like every other ballplayer on the club.
Trades are made because clubs have differing views of the values of their players (e.g., some other club may think colby is more likely to pan out than the cards think he is), because clubs weight differently different utilities of players (a contending club will look for a player effective now, a rebuilding club will want a player who is developing and cheap for a while), and because different clubs have positonal surpluses and deficits.
So we should trade him when another club gives us so much we can’t refuse, or when we have a wealth of comparable CF prospects, or some other scenario arises that makes it effective to trade him.
Note: maximizing the return on a player in trade is hard when the reality or the perception is that he is being chased out by his team, teammates, coaches, or fanbase.
"chipper jones grounds out, third baseman albert pujols to first baseman mark hamilton." 5.1.11 "carlos pena grounds into double play, second baseman allen craig to shortstop tyler greene to first baseman albert pujols." 5.12.11
by tom s. on Jul 18, 2011 10:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Would that work?
I would do it in a heartbeat.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
You have to keep the player down for at least 20 days I believe...
Milwaukee did precisely this with JJ Hardy a few years ago when he was struggling. Needless to say, it creates massive ill-will between player and organization, and if the player doesn’t “deserve” it, he can file a grievance. I don’t personally think Rasmus deserves it since he’s basically hitting the exact same as the NL CF average, but I don’t know if he would take it to the MLBPA.
I would just do it. It would essentially erase this season from his service time and instead of having him for 3.5 years, we could send him down a month, play him for the rest of the season, and then have him for four more years (2012-15) after that. If he’s really pissy, that extra year would only add to his trade value. It wouldn’t save anything in terms of arbitration b/c he’d be a super 2 though…
Sign Carlos Silva!!!
Could Rasmus actually file a grievance?
I mean he does have a .241 average.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
No idea...
the only other comp I know of is JJ Hardy. On Aug 11, 2009 he was hitting .229/.300/.367 with average to above average defense (which was acknowledged by everyone). They sent him down and called him back up when rosters expanded. The Brewers also had Counsell and Alcides Escobar who was a top 20 prospect waiting in the wings. He did lose a year of service time, but he never filed a grievance. There’s also this: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/hardy-and-service-time/
Sign Carlos Silva!!!
Well Colby already requested a trade, so I doubt we have to worry about alienating him further
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Now that I think about it...
Hardy suffered from the same expectations problem as Rasmus. He was like 290/380/480 guy the year before and started the ASG.
Sign Carlos Silva!!!
Well Rasmus hasn't fallen quite as much as Hardy
But yeah, it fits.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
That is a terribly written article. One cliche after another.
That looks like a deadline piece. Ugh.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Who's a target?
2012 FA on teams out of contention & current contract:
Bruce Chen (KC) - 4.38 FIP, 4.45 xFIP; $2M- 4.95, 4.79; $3.2M
Kyle Davies (KC)
Ryan Dempster (CHC) — 3.71, 3.32; $13.5M
Jeff Francis (KC) - 3.90, 4.37; $2M- 4.60, 4.69; $5M
John Garland (LAD)
Aaron Harang (SD)— 3.65, 3.92; $3.5M
Livan Hernandez (WAS)— 3.72, 4.05; $1M
Hideki Kuroda (LAD)— 3.72, 3.60; $12M
Rodrigo Lopez (CHC)— 4.66, 4.22; $1M
Jason Marquis (WAS) — 3.88, 3.92; $7.5M
Javier Vasquez (FLA) — 4.37, 4.29; $7M
Chris Young (NYM) — 4.26, 4.53; $1.1M
For reference
K-Mac — 4.73, 4.19; $1.375M
Westy — 4.57; 3.99; $8M
Even though his salary may be prohibitive, I like Dempster. Harang would be an excellent target. Don’t know much about the KC pitchers.
Is Chris Young healthy?
Friends don't let friends
acquire Jason Marquis.
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
by TBender on Jul 18, 2011 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
can you imagine the Cow's reaction
if they brought him back? That might be worth it for the entertainment. Yeah, maybe not.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions
never understood why cincy let him go
by guillermozeliak on Jul 18, 2011 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
nice reasoning
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
You can't only look at expiring contracts on ooc teams
Theres teams like Tampa and San Fran that need hitting and are stacked with pitching that could deal starters.
by lopey986 on Jul 18, 2011 10:11 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Of this list
Harang is the best target. Good pitcher, durable, not owed much at all, has pitched in the division. The only thing not to like is that he’s a fly ball pitcher (but not an extreme fly ball pitcher).
Kuroda would be a good pickup, but that’s a lot of $$$.
Dempster would be fantastic on the field, but that’s a lot of money to take on.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
While a FB pitcher isn't really optimal
it would play better in Busch than in GABP. Although he is a much safer bet in Petco.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I wasn't really talking about ballpark
More about how Harang’s career GO/FO doesn’t fit the Duncan philosophy.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
our middle infield doesn't fit the Duncan philosophy either
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
nicely put
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
I kinda figured that's what you were getting at.
I was just meaning that even with that angle, he still wouldn’t be the most terrible choice.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I think he's the best target of those listed in the original comment.
I would prefer to look for a 2 year option or longer, though, giving the club some leverage to dump Lohse/Westbrook in the offseason and renegotiate with Carpenter.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I disagree
Lance Lynn doesn’t project to be better than a 4.20 FIP in the rotation. Both K-Mac and Westbrook are better than that right now, and Westbrook has a FIP below 4.00!
I like Lance Lynn a lot, but people seem to equate being really good for one or two innings with being able to do it for 5, 6, and 7 innings. That’s just not true. Mitchell Boggs is a prime example of this, and Kyle McClellan is another.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Lynn to the rotation seems more like a sidegrade than an upgrade at this point
moving forward into next season I can see Lynn in the mix for the rotation. But management isn’t going to demote K-Mac for a side grade
Grit != flat out sucking.
Perhaps then...
Duncan can do him a lot of good…? Wouldn’t be the first time Duncan has turned a guy’s career around by getting him to focus on staying low in the zone.
Jimmy Ballgame for 2011 RFer!!!
by cardzfanbub on Jul 18, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe
But the pitchers you are talking about (excepting Pineiro, who isn’t comparable to Harang in any way) all had the type of stuff that allowed them to make an easy transition into the Duncan mold. Not sure Harang fits that profile.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
El Siñqueiro
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
I thought Harang was injured...
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I've thought this as well
Also, I like Edwin Jackson and Mark Buehrle if the White Sox feel they are falling out of the race. Both are FA to be. Buehrle is interesting because he fits Dunc’s groundballisms and grew up as a Cards fan or is from the area or some such.
Could Colby Rasmus hit a ball so hard that even he couldn't catch it?
by Cardinals645 on Jul 19, 2011 3:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Just wanted to say that
I watched the ‘batshit Theriot’ episode again, and Theriot was right. But i can see how the ump got it wrong, it was a fast moving play. I had to pause my dvr and bump it with the ffwd button. Theriot did have the ball in his glove with his foot on the bag, but it was a split-second move.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 9:44 AM EDT reply actions
I agree
And I don’t disagree with the out call there. It’s all going too quickly. My disagreement comes with the ejection – unless Theriot used a magic word. I did not see Theriot make first contact with an umpire, but I saw TWO umpires make first contact with Theriot.
Got ran w/ contact
It looked to me when they bumped caps is when he got ran. Although I thought he said " you are fuckin terrible" like 3 times in a row probably didn’t help him out much. Most if not all of the major contact was after he got tossed.
"Chuck Norris CAN divide by zero"
by elirock83 on Jul 18, 2011 10:07 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Ryan Theriot told someone else they are fucking terrible at their job?
Hit me up on Google+
by jd is legend on Jul 18, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
dogs and cats are now living together in harmony
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
contact will always get an ejection
and even without the contact, that eruption deserved an ejection.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Yep
I could see he was going to get tossed within 3 seconds of his reaction. It actually took a little longer than I thought it would before he got ejected.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 18, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
does anyone know
if contact after an ejection would affect a possible suspension or suspension length?
"I wonder if I put on a uniform and told La Russa I wanted to play for him if I could be a big leaguer too?"
"that all depends. are you gritty?" "You would need a mediocre decade of MLB experience first" "do you have a goatee, are you short, and do you try really hard?" "Are you willing to play four positions terribly?"
easy for us to say
but I’ll chalk it up to being human. On a really hot day, I might woulda come unglued over that, too.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't see a way to do that.
The runner is moving back, and his momentum has him moving away from the bag.
just watched the play
the runner came up and stood there for a moment. Once the call was made he and theriot were standing there about the same distance from the bag. Theriot runs towards the ump, and then the runner goes to the base.
He may not have got him. But the outcome would have been much better.
Grit != flat out sucking.
this is what I said immediately following the play
theriot kinda non-chalantly turns away expecting the out call. If he’d paid attention, it would have been an easy tag out.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
we can argue this till doomsday
but if they aren’t going to call that an out, then those stupid f’in proximity calls should be outlawed as well.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree
there’s no reason to ever make a “proximity” call. Either they are on the bag with the ball, or they aren’t. Problem is, usually when you think they are making a “proximity” call, if you’ll take the time to slow it down you’ll see that they were on the bag with the ball for a split second. It’s just too difficult to see ball in glove and foot on bag at the same time standing ten feet away.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
probably so.
I have seen them in shots from OF cameras where they catch the ball and throw it on a DP and their feet never get with 6 inches of the bag. Those are the ones that get me steamed. Not saying that it happens all the time, but they do let them get away with it.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
this
would jeter have gotten the call?
"I wonder if I put on a uniform and told La Russa I wanted to play for him if I could be a big leaguer too?"
"that all depends. are you gritty?" "You would need a mediocre decade of MLB experience first" "do you have a goatee, are you short, and do you try really hard?" "Are you willing to play four positions terribly?"
the play wouldn't have been as close because
JETER IS THE BEST SHORTSTOP EVER!!!
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
no way anyone would be prepared to switch gears and
go back to tag cozart..and cozart was like 2 steps away so he could easily get back like someone mentioned
i did pause it too and hit looks like his foot is touching but you would need a overhead/side view to make sure there is contact for sure and i didnt see anyview that provided that
either way i agree with theriot that it was an aweful call and that needs to be an out call
if you wanna see a blown call look at wood/castro pick off against FL
by guillermozeliak on Jul 18, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I just watched it as well
Theriot slightly bumped the umpire, and I mean slightly, but it was nice to actually see some emotion out of Theriot. He really did go all-out on telling the umpire exactly what he thought.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 18, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Bernie Miklasz's Colby to AAA article.
I think that I agree with Bernie’s main points to the article.
1) Colby is struggling – and that is putting it nicely. If he were 34 instead of 24, we would have (seriously) been calling for a DFA since 2 months ago.
2) Colby is not 34, he is still young. A lot of young players are sent back down to find their game when they’re struggling.
3) Since Jay is playing better and (if the two youngsters’ paths continue at this pace) will be earning more and more playing time, leaving Rasmus with less and less. I would rather see Rasmus playing everyday to get out of his slump instead of sitting the bench. If there’s nowhere to do that at the MLB level, then doing it in AAA is fine by me.
4) Only do this if the Cardinals would be doing this to try to save Rasmus as a Cardinal, not in order to hide him from LaRussa or trading him away.
by stlfan on Jul 18, 2011 9:51 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Colby is still the third best outfielder on this team, or fourth if you like Jay better at the moment
So I don’t see any point in sending him down. His struggles in June/July are primarily a function of BABIP. His peripherals are fine.
Colby’s struggles seem to be a function of expectations. If you assess Colby to be about a .340 wOBA CF who walks about 10% of the time, hits about 20 homers, and plays average defense (like I do) then Colby is meeting expectations. I don’t think Colby is ever going to be a 6 WAR player so there’s no need to grasp for narratives to explain why he’s not there.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't normally have a problem with this.....
But I don’t think Rasmus would handle it well. I DON’T KNOW FOR SURE…..but Raz seems like the kind of player that might get really down on himself and his game if he were sent down at this point.
Either let him fight through it while playing Jay some, or trade him.
The average line for CFers in the NL (in an insanely good year for CFers) is...
.265/.334/.416
Colby’s line is 241/.326/.404.
Why would a rational baseball organization release this player regardless of his age?
Sign Carlos Silva!!!
because the mob requires a sacrifice
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
well
because the mob requires a sacrifice
Honestly, I’d prefer a female but ciest la vie.
The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun
by mob16151 on Jul 18, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
touche'
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
You seem to be showing that he's below average
I don’t want to get rid of Colby, but this doesn’t help.
I think of it more like this
After a massive slump, he’s now hitting a touch below average for his position. That’s not a strong argument, in my opinion, that he should be sent down to AAA.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
Is it reasonable to expect his end-of-year hitting stats to look like this?
Is it reasonable to expect him to keep declining? I don’t see a strong argument for answering yes to either of those.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
Agreed
All the evidence points towards him improving a lot as the season goes along.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
I also think I might agree with Willie McGee's Twin that expectations are playing a huge part
It really could be that he’s not quite as good as a lot of us hoped he would be. If we lower our expectations a bit his current slump seems even less bad.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
Sure
I personally think he still has a ton of potential left, but his current performance is still pretty damn solid.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
please take a soapbox out and explain that to the masses.
they’re not listening to anybody else.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Generation Now
We are in the thick of a pennant race. We want all our players “above their heads”, “firing on all cylinders”, “catching fire” whatever.
"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop
His current performance
is bad for 1.5 months now.
I understand BABIP, potential, etc. But at some point he has to accumulate hits.
I guess I’m just frustrated. Again, I want to stress that I’m not advocating getting rid of him. It just seems to me that there’s more at work here than bad luck.
Wait what
Since when is last 1.5 months current performance? You don’t just get to ignore his numbers at the beginning of the year, or ignore the fact that he had a .227 BABIP in June and a .133 BABIP so far this month.
Rasmus has a career 108 wRC+, where 100 is league average for all hitters. Combine that with the fact that he is at least an average fielding centerfielder, it’s hard to argue that he hasn’t been performing.
This year, he’s been an above average player, despite the low BABIP.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
joe strauss says he's not as good as the SABR guys think he is
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
The SABR guys think Joe Strauss is a terrible journalist
Neither of these facts has any relevance to the argument at hand, lol.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
many none SABR guys think Joe Strauss is a terrible journalist
you can only act like an asshat so many times before people realize that you are acting.
Grit != flat out sucking.
Here's what I find out about this:
It wasn’t just statheads guys who touted Colby coming up, it was seamheads AND statheads. and it’s still the scouts that see this incredible potential in him, as long as he can work on his consistency. How Colby’s toolsyness has become an attack point on the SABR community is beyond me — he’s as much of a scout’s dream as he is a numbers geek.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
by Alxfritz on Jul 18, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
whatever, statnerd
ride the wave. Tsunami. Also #HPGF
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
There's no way scouts and stat nerds could like the same player.
None. It’s an impossibility.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Given, he IS an above average player,
but he should be a difference maker. Potential matters. Rasmus should be a better player than he is on both sides of the ball.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
No, that doesn't adjust for ballpark
Busch is one of the most pitcher friendly parks in the game. So Rasmus has been about average for centerfielder’s this year, which would be a terrible reason to release someone.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
I thought
bush was just slightly tilted toward pitchers. I didn’t think it rated as an extreme pitchers park at all.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
bush favors hitters because he's from Texas and loves Nolan Ryan
(no political associations associated with this comment)
Then how do you explain The Ballpark at Arlington's hitter-friendliness?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Runs - 94 park factor
HR – 82 park factor
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Those are 3 year park factors from seamheads.com
ESPN has Busch at 83 for runs and 79 for home runs, though those are one year
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Complete post fail....
ugh. B.U.S.C.H.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
and I should add i don't think he's really below average...
if you include park effects.
Sign Carlos Silva!!!
And Rasmus has certainly not played slightly below average
That centerfielder’s are hitting ridiculously well this year doesn’t take away from Rasmus’ value, as his offense should be compared to all players.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Er
1) Colby’s not really struggling. 106 wRC+ with a .285 BABIP, and still probably good defense in center. That’s still a very, very good player.
2) Rasmus has been up for 3 years now, sending him down to AAA won’t do shit for his development.
3) Jay has a .356 BABIP – .080 points higher than Rasmus’. He’s not really playing better, and is likely to be a lot worse than Rasmus going forward. His ceiling is essentially Rasmus’ floor.
4) I agree.
I think the only form of demotion that makes sense would be to send Rasmus down for a month in order to gain an extra year of team control.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Rasmus: .325 wOBA, .285 BABIP, 1.4 WAR
Jay: .352 wOBA, .356 BABIP, 1.8 WAR
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
And I don't trust the defensive metrics at all
No way Rasmus has been a -7 run defender so far this year.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
have you been watching the games?
Rasmus has made a lot of bad plays in the outfield this year.
Grit != flat out sucking.
lot of good ones too.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
he has
that running over the shoulder catch saved a run yesterday. But overall if someone tells me Colby’s defense has been a negative this year I’m inclined to believe them
Grit != flat out sucking.
i would think it is closer to even than anything
but maybe a bit negative. 7 runs is a lot, though.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
it's just a measurement
7 runs doesn’t mean 7 runs. It’s a value so we can compare it to other centerfielders and other position players
Grit != flat out sucking.
i know
do you actually think Colby is the 3rd worst defensive center fielder in baseball?
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
Looking at that list, it's quite possible.
I certainly would put him towards the bottom – and definitely in the bottom half.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I believe he has been the 3rd worst defensive center fielder this year in baseball
Do you believe that all those players above him have had worse defensive years than him?
I know there is noise in UZR, just do to the nature of someone deciding if a play should be made. But there is no reason to believe he has played better than those above him.
Grit != flat out sucking.
i am not arguing anything specific
but you cannot use those numbers to be that precise, which is i think where VEP was going with his comment. i would tend to agree that Colby is likely in the bottom half- but, for example, there is no way that Matt Kemp is a superior defensive talent to Colby Rasmus. no chance. if we put Colby at closer to a zero UZR, (which, if you average out his UZR/150s, seems to be what it comes close to, and we are over 2 seasons now) his WAR is going to increase correspondingly.
that’s the only point i was making.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
but we are not measure talent
just the season up to this point. There are currently 12 players with a higher OPS than Albert Pujols. And only one of those those 12 (votto) would seriously entertain an argument that he is the better hitter than Pujols
Grit != flat out sucking.
yes
i agree. i believe Colby is better defensively than the metrics have shown this year. therefore, i discount the statistical assessment of his value for this year. i am not disagreeing with the stats per se- the fielding stats just only go so far.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
UZR is not OPS
We’ve had this discussion before – are you going to acknowledge that or do we have to do it all over again?
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure. I'll acknowledge that UZR is not OPS
I’ll acknowledge that we’ve had the discussion that UZR is not OPS before.
you are not acknowledging that a player’s 2011 UZR is not a measure of how someone has played defensively from the start of the season until today?
Grit != flat out sucking.
That would be generally correct, yes
UZR is not necessarily descriptive
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
I don't understand the syntax of your last sentence
So I’ll just say this. UZR is not an accurate description of how well a player has played on defense in a single, or especially half, season. In addition to the numerous amounts of random error that come with classifying the velocity, location, and angle of a batted ball, there is also varying degrees of bias, based on ballpark, or even range.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
it's the best tool that we have
Use what you have, unless you have scouting evidence that suggest colby has been better this year…
btw, Cobly now has over one and a half seasons worth of bad center field play. That small same size is getting larger.
Grit != flat out sucking.
Is the plus/minus rating
that Goold refers to useful at all?
Actually, his career UZR/150 is -1.7
IOW average. And that’s in less than 3000 innings, so really not all that meaningful.
In all likelihood, Rasmus has been better than a -7 run defender. Objectively because very few players are that bad on defense, meaning it’s likely he’s better than that (bellcurve), and his DRS is +2 runs.
Subjectively because he has excellent range.
Just because UZR says he’s -7 runs doesn’t mean you can fall back on that, especially because DRS has him as +2.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't understand this
but, for example, there is no way that Matt Kemp is a superior defensive talent to Colby Rasmus. no chance.
Why is there no chance of this? Kemp has wheels.
TRADE FOR RICH HARDEN
have you ever watched Matt Kemp play the outfield?
the dude has some of the worst instincts i have ever seen. no doubt he has the PHYSICAL talent to do it, but he is absolutely, unequivocally not doing it.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
Kemp is rated just slightly above Colby
it’s not like that link is suggesting that Kemp is a gold glove or anything.
Grit != flat out sucking.
earlier this year
you could say the exact opposite. When that whole “afraid of walls” thing was going on.
Grit != flat out sucking.
You could say that, but you'd be a fucking idiot.
Every distinct memory I have of Rasmus making a great play is him going back on a ball. Every distinct memory I have of him making a shit play is either him screwing up a ball that bounces in front of him, or him screwing up on that one play to his right that resulted in the “he’s afraid of walls lol” argument.
http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz
And by "you" I mean Van Slyke.
Not meaning to call you an idiot, frog.
http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz
there were two plays in the gap there that he screwed up on
on back to back plays. One hit his glove, one landed between him and Holliday. Also at the time he seemed to be catching everything shallow.
But yeah, Van Slyke has been extremely hard on Rasmus.
Grit != flat out sucking.
-7 runs?
That would mean he’s been like the worst centerfielder in the game. He’s looked above average to me. Some glaring miscues, but still obviously has tremendous range, which is what really matters.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
3rd worse
he has good range. But without watching the other 20 qualifying CFers I don’t think you can make an argument that he isn’t defensively one of the worst CFers this year.
Grit != flat out sucking.
but then how the hell can you make the argument that he is?
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
The difference, of course, is that UZR, even with its flaws
is still “some” objective measure of defensive performance, whereas, VEPs’ statement “he’s looked above average to me” is biased (in multiple ways), lacks authority or basis, and is usually the type of comment met with derision around here.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually half season UZR is about as valid as my subjective scouting report
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
scouting vs. SABR re: Colby continues
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Agreed
And this is the problem with defensive metrics and they way they get applied to value on the SABR sites like B-Ref and Fangraphs.
Just because they use them in WAR doesn’t mean that they are accurate over sample sizes. I would venture to say that the fan scouting report is about as accurate as UZR with less than a season’s worth of data. But because one is deemed “objective” that means it has less error? That’s just simply not true. Considering the correlation, the subjective views of an objective observer might actually be more accurate.
Most scouts still consider him to be an above average center fielder.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
you look at the what numbers you have
if you want to make an argument against the numbers, then you have to bring something else to the discussion.
Grit != flat out sucking.
i hate this argument
it’s so stupid. you’re saying the exact same thing as someone saying we should have replaced Colby with Jon Jay in the starting lineup last year (pre-Ludtrade) because of Jay’s batting average.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
it was too late then
maybe if they had put Jay in for Colby, there never would have been a tradewick?
then there wouldn't have been a Berkman
what’s your point? i can’t tell if you’re being funny or making a legitimate argument against Colby.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
Ludtrade?
More like Tradewick
Hit me up on Google+
by jd is legend on Jul 18, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
no i'm not
because I’m not saying colby will continue to under preform in the out field. I’m saying he has.
Look saying something like, “Only three Cardinals with enough PA to qualify for the batting title have worse OBP than colby this year.”
Isn’t saying that “Only three cardinals with enough PAs to qualify for the batting title this year, and this isn’t going to change so we should trade him and let Jay play center.”
Grit != flat out sucking.
you apparently just don't understand how UZR works then
you cannot make an accurate judgement based on UZR of how well Colby has performed in the outfield this year.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
for reference.
UZR tries to record a player’s likely true talent and estimate his future performance based on the nuances of the batted ball and the player’s response to those nuances. It is not trying to capture exactly what happens on the field according to some arbitrary categories, like most of the offensive metrics (which make no distinction between a lucky ground ball bleeder through the "5-hole" or a clean, line drive base hit to the outfield), even the advanced ones like wOBA or linear weights.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
You can't use numbers for defense
At least not in the same way you can for offense, especially in a half season’s worth of innings.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
fine
never bring up numbers when speaking about Theriot’s or Schumakers defense.
Grit != flat out sucking.
I don't, not for single season or especially half season
For career or multiple seasons, UZR is more acceptable, or at least it has a managable margin of error.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow
So because you can’t use a half season’s worth of data that has a significant amount of error, we can’t use multiple seasons worth of data about someone like Theriot or Schumaker? Talk about a mother of a false equivalence.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
But then who was phone?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Colby
I would add 5) Only do this if you can get Colby somewhat on board with it.
Given all the problems Rasmus has had with the powers that be, a demotion to AAA without his “consent” would be counterproductive in the extreme. He’d never get his mojo back with his head up his ass.
Don't do it at all
It will do nothing but generate ill will.
I found this amusing
Tony La Russa is a manager with a library of binders containing statistical information on match-ups and splits. McClellan’s success against opposing left-handed batters is undoubtedly known to him.
Especially when you take into account his insistence in putting in a freaking lefty to face votto despite votto hitting 70 points higher against lefties.
by lopey986 on Jul 18, 2011 10:03 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Do you really think Votto is actually a better hitter against specialist lefties than he is against RHP?
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
I think votto hits shitty pitchers a lot better than good pitchers
And our lefties are about as shitty as it gets, on top of that he’s hitting lefties at a ridiculous clip this year, so why even bother with putting in our 2 worst relievers to face him when we could leave in a good righty.
by lopey986 on Jul 18, 2011 10:14 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
well I agree in principle that miller shouldn't pitch to anyone
I still think he has a better chance to get Votto than say, Motte, Boggs, or Lynn. As long as he doesn’t walk him.
Grit != flat out sucking.
I don't think so
Miller seems to walk any lefty who is even a remotely decent hitter at this point, probably because he has no confidence in his ability to retire that hitter if he were to throw strikes. Plus, what’s the point in burning a lefty only to have to remove him the next batter when a righty comes up and then you are stuck with a righty to face Bruce who has a much more pronounced lefty/righty split?
by lopey986 on Jul 18, 2011 10:24 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
the real issue is the LOOGY
This team needs one, and as long as Miller is the LOOGY, Tony is going to use him as one.
Grit != flat out sucking.
That's fine
But that’s not the right spot to use the loogy. La Russa burned the crap out of the bullpen by using a lefty vs votto and then having to take him out because votto ripped a double and youve got a righty coming up. Using a righty vs votto and rolen and then using the loogy vs Bruce (who has a much greater split) would’ve been a much better move.
by lopey986 on Jul 18, 2011 11:05 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
and, um, Tony didn't take Miller out after that atbat, FYI.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Miller destroyed Bruce in an at-bat immediately afterward.
I would call Jay Bruce a “decent” hitter.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
no such thing as reverse splits for batters
anyway, career wise Votto OPS ~.100 lower against lefties than righties.
Grit != flat out sucking.
Ryan Ludwick has a reverse split.
But it’s silly to use such a small sample to say that Votto would hit better against any lefty right now, not that I think lopey is really arguing this.
I think the main story is that Tony sometimes conveniently uses small sample type arguments when they confirm his preconceived beliefs, and ignores them when they don’t.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
Hm. It's not there in his 900 something PAs in the minors so far as I can tell
I thought I remembered him having a reverse split in the minors too, so I was wrong about that. But it is there in his 2800 PAs in the majors.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
look
You can show me a dragon eating my dog and burning down my house, and I’m still going to tell you that dragons don’t exist.
Actually, I think i’ll be more incline to believe dragons exist than reverse splits for hitters.
Grit != flat out sucking.
Um, this makes no sense
You can show me a dragon eating my dog and burning down my house, and I’m still going to tell you that dragons don’t exist.
Dragons are a mythical creature that don’t exist. A reverse split is when a hitter has a track record of better results against a same-handed pitcher.
The former is fairy tale nonsense, the latter is reality that can easily be seen in results in real-world examples.
You’re literally saying that you don’t care what the evidence is, which is sort of silly and not even a real argument.
TRADE FOR RICH HARDEN
yes
You’re literally saying that you don’t care what the evidence is, which is sort of silly and not even a real argument.
That is what I’m saying exactly. I don’t care what evidence you show me, the reverse split doesn’t exist.
Grit != flat out sucking.
That's really stupid
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
That's not really helping your argument
That doesn’t show anything other than that Ichiro hits LH and RH pitching the same. Any difference between LHP and RHP would be subsumed in the error.
You need to find somebody with a big split over a large number of PAs.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
If it wasn't clear
The top line is his line against lefties, the bottom is his line against righties.
TRADE FOR RICH HARDEN
It's clear that he has, in the raw results, a reverse split in the majors
But I guess the question is whether 2800 PAs is significant enough to make any claims. I can’t remember when BABIP is supposed to normalize, but I remember it takes a ton of PAs.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
Did you check out the BABIP over his
893 PAs against lefties?
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
.260 versus LHP career
.322 versus RHP
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
Yes.
And my point is that Ludwick’s “reverse split” is very likely a function of a unlucky/fluky BABIP.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Anyone care to chime in a say if he has enough PAs for it not to be a fluke?
Or at least for it to be possible for it not to be a fluke?
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
...
A better example would have been Ichiro from a few years ago. Ichiro (Table 68 in The Book) showed a -33 points reverse split (through 2004). That, of course, is the observation. The estimate of his true skill was +4. I think he kept showing reverse splits through 2006 or 2007 until reversing himself.
Basically, be very careful in what you may see as something real, when it is not.
Anyway, Ichiro is now at -16 points of observed split, with 1951 PA against LHP. So, we observe a greater split with far more PA than Nick Johnson. We regress him only 34%, to put him at a -1 reverse split. Ichiro, therefore, might be the only guy in baseball with a true reverse split. But, Ichiro basically breaks every system we try to devise for him. He’s the exception to the rule.
Nick Johnson and Wilkerson were ALSO in that table in The Book, by the way, so you are not telling us something new here. At the time (through 2004 season), Nick Johnson was estimated at a true +21 split, and is now, based on my quick calc above, at +9.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
not sure about significant sample size, but here are some more data points:
vs. L: 20.4% LD, 29.1% GB, 50.5% FB
vs. R: 21.8% LD, 32.3% GB, 45.9% FB
Here is a link to my google+ profile.
I find it interesting
that there is such thing as luck in baseball but not clutch.
"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop
I'm having
a hard time believing luck is predictive.
"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop
BABIP has a skill element for hitters
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
OT, but
do we know (or have a guess) as to how much of batter BABIP is skill-based? always wondered this.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
wouldn't it be different for everyone?
since everyone doesn’t have the same amount of skill?
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
That'd be almost impossible to quantify, I think
For clarification, you’re asking if we can say, “Oh, .275 of his BABIP is luck, and .050 is skill based?”
Interesting question
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
I think thats why LD% is just a better indicator
Rarely cited though
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
That's one part of the equation
Speed is another. GB:FB ratio is another. Ability to “put the ball where they aint” is another
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Okay so when
does Ludwick hit rights better than lefts and “he is who we thought he was.”? You can attribute it to a high BABIP, but there are too many “personal” variables to consider like you mention.
"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop
This sentence didn't make sense to me
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
For Ludwick -
He’s just as fast to 1B whether he’s facing LHP/RHP and his LD% between the two is pretty close.
I just don’t see much if any statistical evidence that Ludwick is actually a better hitter against RHP than he is against LHP.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Is he
better at hitting rights than other right handed batters?
BTW I’m not trying to sound like a dick. I’m ignorant to this. I’m trying to figure out why his splits says he is, but you beg to differ.
"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop
No, Ludwick's splits (IMO)
are just a statistical anomaly.
Just like the fact that Votto has hit better against LHP this year. It’s happenstance. Going forward, I would expect that Votto, like just every other LHB, will hit worse against LHP (especially against LH specialty pitchers who have true split advantages against LHB).
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm following you (I think)
you are saying today he does hit rights better (statistical anomaly) but that will normalize over time. That because his LD% and GB% are close from each handed pitcher, the right pitchers are unlucky and the lefts are lucky. (In terms of BABIP.) These two should at the very least look even over time.
"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop
Yes.
In the past, Ludwick has hit righties better. But, IMO, this fact is the result of happenstance, not because Ludwick is truly a better hitter against RHP.
Over time, I would expect the split to disappear.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah seriously
Colby keeps get balls caught right on the line lately. Even liners. Normally these are doubles. But it seems players are positioning themselves closer to the line when he bats….
But at the same time, everything he hits the other way is getting caught also.
Grit != flat out sucking.
no, not really
more asking, can we figure out what % of BABIP league-wide is a result of batter skill, and what % is just normal luck.
seems like this is something that should be able to be quantified. obviously, it would be next to impossible to do for individual hitters. i just mean in aggregate.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
this doesn't make sense the way i said it.
i’m not sure i’m wording my thoughts right. i should be able to figure this out on my own, i think.
i guess, how controllable is BABIP by a player?
i suppose i would need to know the league average BABIP, the standard error, and then see how much everyone is able to exceed or fall below that. i need to think about this more.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
If there is such a thing as clutch
It does not bear out in the numbers
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Ludwick's ISO against
RHP – 199
LHP – 202
He hits LHP just as hard as RHP. If he’s actually a significantly better hitter against RHP than LHP I would expect it to show up somehwere other than a fluky difference in BABIP betwen LHP/RHP.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Around ~1100 PAs
Joe Strauss is the greatest journalist since Edward R. Murrow.
Also, I would kiss Rui on the web cam.
Ah
So, would we need ~1100 PAs against lefties for Ludwick, or total PAs?
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
Against LHP (if you wanted his BABIP against lefties to "stabilize")
(And “stabilize” would not mean that Ludwick’s true talent BABIP against lefties woud be known afetr 1100 PAs.)
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
That leaves me a little confused about the meaning of "stabilize" in this context then
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
I'll cut and paste from the article
One writer described the concept of stats stabilizing as "pretty simple—at a certain threshold of either plate appearances (for hitters) or batters faced (for pitchers) a number will stabilize such that it can be taken at close to face value." That’s not true, though. Once a hitter reaches a threshold, his rate still can’t be taken at face value. At any particular threshold, we still need to include 50 percent of mean performance to get the most accurate representation of the player.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
So it's sort of like a half-life, or something?
It’s the point at which we can say it doesn’t have to be regressed by any more than half?
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
I'll chime in and say that it's possible it's not a fluke
I mean a bad or good BABIP is partially correlated with whether you’re hitting linedrives or popups or weak groundballs.
I’d venture to say that for every 5 times BABIP is brought up the bringer-upper only considers this fact 1 time.
by infallibleopiniongenerator on Jul 18, 2011 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
i still maintain
that it is a result of him being one of the only bat right throw left players in the bigs.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
That's the main reason I wonder if he really could have a reverse split
Ludwick belongs to two small groups of baseball weirdos. The (possible, apparent) reverse split group, and the bat-right/throw-left group. That’s a cool coincidence that makes me wonder if there’s anything actually going on.
I wonder if he’ll even get enough major league PAs to ever prove he has a reverse split, assuming that he does? He’s in his age-32 season and his hitting has been going down hill. I hope he gets out of PetCo.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
Umm..
How does the fact that Ludwick’s throws with his left arm affect his BABIP?
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
It just made me wonder if there was something about how he hits that could be different from the typical right handed hitter
It’s not so much that his throwing would theoretically effect his hitting, it’s that his hitting “better” against righties and his throwing lefty could maybe be related to the same cause. Or something.
Basically, I realize that it’s unlikely anybody has a true reverse split. The reasons I always wondered if Ryan Ludwick did were 1. he appears to from the results of his major leage hitting data, and 2. he is a weird player because of the bat righty/throw lefty thing. Maybe there’s something weird about Ryan Ludwick that is not true for most players.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
Well okay
I don’t really know what to tell you about that, other than that I don’t believe in velcro, and no matter how much velcro you show me, I’m standing firm on that. That doesn’t make me wrong, it just makes me opinionated!
TRADE FOR RICH HARDEN
Wait a darn minute
Are you making a joke? You know how VEB feels about humor!!!
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
You should be ashamed of yourself.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
It's kind of like how I occasionally see "video evidence" of the non-existent 2004 World Series.
I think I get where you’re coming from now.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
this is the second time you've said this in as many days
no such thing as reverse splits for batters
can you explain
Votto is a great hitter.
For his career, he has been slightly less great against LHP, compiling a line of .308/.391/.507/.898 over 727 PA compared to a career line of .320/.415/.568/.983 against RHP. This season, he has a reverse platoon split against LHP, but not for his career.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
HComfort level
he looked real relaxed n all of his ab’s vs stl lefties, and hit the ball hard each time as well. Maybe he has just figured something out this year. Or it just maybe he’s just a good ball player, funny how that skill thing works.
"Chuck Norris CAN divide by zero"
by elirock83 on Jul 18, 2011 10:23 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Does one of our resident medical experts want to parse this?
The prognosis for reliever Eduardo Sanchez is not good for the remainder of this year. A recent MRI of Sanchez’ right shoulder did not reveal significant damage of the right rotator cuff but did find wear in the broadest muscle in the upper back.
Joe Strauss is the greatest journalist since Edward R. Murrow.
Also, I would kiss Rui on the web cam.
I wonder what they mean by 'wear'.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
rooks carrying the water to the 'pen
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
got some good pics of a D-Backs rookie carrying a pink lamb bag to the pen when they were in town
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I enjoyed Heath Bell giving the Yoda backpack full of
goodies to the kid sitting next to the wall at the ASG. I thought that was pretty cool.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
"I can't sign anything during the game. But I can sign before the game..."
Great quote by Bell during that exchange as the kid pulls some autographed gear out of the backpack.
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
They are talking about some sort of lat injury
which would be significant for a pitcher since it acts as an internal rotator of the shoulder. Also, we aren’t talking about tires here so “wear” is an odd term. It would be interesting to know the location of his pain, it would go a long way in providing a better guess as to what they are talking about. I mean, are we talking about the muscle belly or tendon? “Wear” makes me think tendon.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Lat is commonly known as "the broadest muscle of the back"
but it isn’t an upper back muscle. Also, I didn’t even know wear on lat tendons was a thing.
http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz
I originally had the "upper back" comment in my post too
but didn’t think it would be relevant to what az wanted to know. Peavy had a lat tendon tear, but I can’t recall anyone else off hand with a tendon injury.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Their record seems to be a pretty good reflection of their run differential.
Unlike Milwaukee’s -12 run differential and 51-45 record.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
You mean, arrrrrrgh.
Bright side: This year they’re good! This means the Cards will own them!
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Does Rasmus get us
Yunel Escobar, Brandon Morrow, and a B prospect? What if we through in one of our arms like Swagerty, Kelly or Cleto? Does that land us a solid SS, solid #3 SP and a new Future Cardinal? Maybe we could throw in a guy like Ryan jackson. Purely an idea, makes sense in my head though.
by rumors on Jul 18, 2011 10:21 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
To extrapolate:
Our front office fucked up by going after the worst trade asset at SS last offseason.
Now we are dealing with the consequences.
We could have acquired JJ Hardy for little more (or possibly not any more at all) than what we gave up for Theriot. We could have given up a couple of decent prospects and acquired Escobar, who was being sold low in an effort to move him out of Atlanta. Not sure we could have trumped the Toronto offer, though.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I thought that TOR-ATL deal was an in-season trade last year?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
we couldve had jj hardY?
that wouldve been nice.
by guillermozeliak on Jul 18, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
He hasn't been very good
And he got off to a horrible start again this year and it was looking like another bad year from him until he poured it on in June. Easy to say in hindsight we should have got him but when he was available he didn’t look all that enticing.
by lopey986 on Jul 18, 2011 11:10 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Enticing
Neither did Theriot. Basically, we had our choice of a SS coming off a .313 wOBA season who is an excellent defender and a player coming off a .286 wOBA season and who is a below average defender. 2.0 Fangraphs WAR to 0.2 Fangraphs WAR. I’d say that Hardy was the better choice to target at the time. Hindsight only makes it more obvious.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Stupid Theriot
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
So yeah, um, Boog, pretty good, eh
Yeah, no, there was totally a reasonable argument for the Theriot trade.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
The Theriot trade was fine
The Boog trade was not
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Boog was gone before the club traded for Theriot
but if the overall goal was to improve the middle infield, they failed.
Grit != flat out sucking.
Not correct -
Theriot was traded for in late November; Boog was traded in mid-December.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
hmm... not how I remembered it
Obviously I was wrong. I do remember Mo saying that Theriot was the starting shortstop when we traded for him, and Tony saying there would be a competition in spring training for the starting position. I just thought that meant between him and Greene. I guess all that competition went away and came back in the form of Cleto.
Grit != flat out sucking.
I remember it distinctly because I thought there was a chance
that the trade for Theriot was for a platoon partner for Skip at 2B, whie Ryan played SS. Therefore I didn’t “hate” the Theriot trade when it was made.
When Theriot was installed as the starting SS after the Boog trade, then I hated the trade.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I find it curious that Ryan Theriot
makes some of the worst defensive miscues I’ve ever seen at shortstop, is a very poor offensive player, and yet there isn’t a non-VEB clamoring for an upgrade at shortstop. He has a .300 wOBA and has been worth 0.2 WAR. His production has nearly mirrored his 2010 production.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Yet...
I continue to see posts on how we should trade Colby Rasmus. When Colby Rasmus really isn’t our problem.
I guess my point is that I wish Jon Jay played SS instead of CF.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Now there's an idea!
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
Well he's probably not a -20 run defender
And his hitting is good enough.
I would love to move him to second.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
A Theriot/Skip platoon is just so perfect
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Nothing with Skip is perfect, or even adequate for that matter
A Theriot/Deslcalso platoon on the other hand.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Or a
Theriot/Craig platoon?
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
Why would they platoon?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
As bad as Theriot is at shortstop
I imagine him to be a good defensive 2b. Though maybe Descalso is better.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
a Descalso/Craig platoon is really the best overall option
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
Add TOOTBLAN to the list
I think plenty of people have expressed displeasure with Theriot. I think the best bet to get rid of him would be for Punto impress Tony by adopting some cats and/or Therior to get hurt.
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
That's assuming we'll see a healthy Punto again this year.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
wait - what happened to Punto?
I was busy watching little girls play softball yesterday.
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
Elbow injury again.
Could be done for the year.
by WizardofOz1982 on Jul 18, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah
i have about as much faith that we will see Nick Punto again this season as i do that we will see Sanchez. has the roster move happened yet? i assume Punto DL’d for Greene?
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
Greene or Kozma
off day today, so they may not announce it until tomorrow.
Grit != flat out sucking.
he wants to know what happened to Punto
he was watching little girls play softball yesterday and hasn’t heard any update.
Grit != flat out sucking.
did that sound creepy?
I have an 8 year old daughter who plays softball. They are funny to watch because almost all of the hits are infield hits. The highlight of the game was in the 2nd inning, both teams had double plays (LD and popup caught followed by tag out).
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
In my experience, most of those 'hits' are errors
"Skipper, we're losing the crowd. Put it our new novelty act."
"Darn it! I already put in the circus clown!"
"Yeah, but he bunted. Clowns are only funny when they swing away!"
by KlausChadman on Jul 18, 2011 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't worry
their BABIP will normalize over time.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jul 18, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
oh good, I'm not the only one
I laughed out loud and then wondered if the tiredness is hitting me.
Still not a werewolf.
i did too
i rarely actually laugh from something online… this was perfectly witty.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
I still prefer Tyler Greene to Theriot.
Theriot might be my least favorite player of all time (other than every ‘87 Minnesota Twin). He’s a utility guy masquerading as a starting SS.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I think I hate Theriot more than Thurston
Thurston at least didn’t have the entitlement (“I will pout if I get moved to second base”) that Theriot has shown in the past
Hit me up on Google+
by jd is legend on Jul 18, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I never hated Thurston. A series of mishaps/coincidences
made a AAAA guy into a starting 3B. It wasn’t his fault. He was a FA pickup – there was never a plan to make him into a starter, like there was with Theriot.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
One name. Mike Gallego.
ugh.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
Thurston wasn't really sold
As a solution to any problems. I think of him more as a depth move that ended up getting way more opportunity than anybody expected, and we all suffered for it. That’s the key difference I think. Theriot was billed as a solution to perceived problems and handed the SS job.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 18, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
That will only become a more firmly held preference
if you have the opportunity to see Tyler Greene play in AAA. It’s like watching someone play a video game with a created player that is ridiculously toolsy.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
why the hell doesn't he do that in the Lou?
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Sometimes I wonder if it is mental.
I also wonder if a player that has poor contact skills and a high strikeout rate like Greene needs to be in the lineup everyday to have a chance at producing at the level he has in the minors. Whatever the reason, he has looked horrible at the plate while playing for the Cardinals.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Have you read
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Nope.
This is analyzing NCAA strikeout rates through the lens of the draft and Tyler Greene is listed as a player deserving of a red flag, under its conclusions. Is there a follow-up with how minor-league strikeout rates play in MLB? Is a 24% strikeout rate in AAA a huge red flag, too? I’ve never looked at this.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I haven't seen one to that effect yet.
I do think, however, that poor contact rates at any level of play is going to be a giant red flag when projecting future success. The pitchers and matchups for hitters only get tougher the closer you get to the big leagues, so if you’re having trouble making contact in A ball, chances are you’re not going to improve that in AAA.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I agree with your.
That makes logical sense. I was kind of hoping that there was a similar study that gave us a AA or AAA strikeout rate filter point, similar to the 22% NCAA strikeout rate and 18-22% NCAA strikeout rate danger zone for prospects. How high is too high? 22% in AAA? 25% in AAA?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Well
There are only 12 players in the MLB who have a strikeout rate greater than 24% this year, and Greene’s would assuredly be higher
Of those 12 players, only Adam Dunn is below replacement level
Drew Stubs – 30.0% – 2.2 WAR
Mark Reynolds – 28.6% – .5 WAR
Mike Stanton – 28.1% – 2.3 WAR
Kelly Johnson – 27.7% – 1.6 WAR
Miguel Olivo – 27.6% – .8 WAR
Carlos Pena – 27.0% – .6 WAR
Austin Jackson – 26.4% – 1.0 WAR
Nelson Cruz – 26.3% – 1.0 WAR
Peter Bourjos – 25.2% – 2.6 WAR
BJ Upton – 24.7% – 1.8 WAR
Ryan Howard – 24.4% – 1.0 WAR
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Oh here's a nice article
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Relevant

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
So where is the danger zone?
18-22% with 22% as the red flag zone? Just like NCAA?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I would say >20%
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Fair enough.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Beatty?
Around 22-23%
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Ummmmmm
I think WAR is a really bad stat to use in this evaluation. WAR encompasses defense and baserunning, two things that are decidedly un-related to strikeout rate.
I think using wOBA would be much better for this analysis.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Depends on what argument you're making
If the question is “Is strikeout rate a red flag for Major League success?” then WAR’s a perfectly fine tool to use.
If the question is “Is strikeout rate a red flag for Major League offensive success” then yeah, wOBA would be better
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
note that i haven't read anything above
but what the hell would make you believe that strikeout rate was a red flag for major league success in anything except offense? is this an actual idea?
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
Shut up
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
He is looking at overall value, I believe.
As Brendan Ryan demonstrated last season, a player can have an awful offensive season yet still have value. Rui is looking at strikeout rate in the overall value context while it appears fourstick would prefer to look at it simply in the offensive production context.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
i suppose
rui’s is going to be a lot less useful of an analysis than fourstick’s because you’re introducing a lot of other information that is unrelated.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
Because that's what we're talking about here:
Why use a metric to determine if a player is successful at defense when that metric has nothing to do with defense.
If Tyler Greene is a 2 win defensive player (assumption) and strikes out 35% of the time with a .280 wOBA, then he’s been successful in spite of his high K-rate. The correlation makes no sense when measured this way — if he wasn’t an elite defender, he wouldn’t be successful, and if he had a lower K-Rate he’d probably be more successful.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
No it's not
You could have a SS that strikes out 40% of the time but is Ozzie level good defensively, and he’s be considered a “success” via WAR but a “failure” by wOBA.
This is obviously an extreme example, but you can see what I’m getting at. High K-Rates tell you nothing about whether a player is a good defender or baserunner, they only tell you that they have a high K-rate. You seem to be presenting an argument about successes and failures of players with high K-rates. WAR is going to skew that by factoring in values that K-Rate has ZERO effect on.
Also, WAR is position adjusted. If we’re concerned solely about whether hitters with high K-rates are successful or not, we shouldn’t be concerned at all with position.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
damn, that's quite a list.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
The list is basically
Plus centerfielders and prodigious power] guys
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
how likely is that he would
strike out more than Stubbs?
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Greene seems to have an almost nonexistent pitch recognition skill.
Often he appears to just be swinging randomly and guessing completely. I actually have as much faith in Pete Kozma as Tyler Greene at this point.
http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz
I actually think Kozma has a much better shot of being a major leaguer than Greene.
by WizardofOz1982 on Jul 18, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Much better? I wouldn't go so far.
The main thing is, Greene’s issues at the plate are the kind that cause a kid to totally collapse offensively, Brandon Wood style. This year his BABIP was practically in normal range yet he was hitting in the mendoza range. The only chance he has of being valuable is either A. That his defense comes around or B. That his plate discipline improves (which it has somewhat, but not enough).
Kozma looked decent on defense (good range and arm, average hands and footwork), AND he might have an offensive profile like Nick Punto or Brendan Ryan. He’s better than Matt Pagnozzi. Kozma would need to continue to look decent on defense in addition to making a pretty substantial jump to below average on offense. That kind of a jump is about as likely as Greene’s jump.
http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz
guess the difference
is that kozma is 23 and greene is 29
(both numbers from memory, but i know i’m close)
Ages
Kozma is indeed 23. Greene is 27. It just seems like he’s been a prospect for 15 years.
by WizardofOz1982 on Jul 18, 2011 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd prefer Brendan Ryan to either of them.
Greene has the tools to be a good player…and none of those tools have been refined into skills. He has power, speed, and a good arm, yet he’s not an above average defender at SS, he has contact rates so bad that it saps all his value as a hitter, and he seems to have a lot of mental lapses on the field that basically create boneheaded plays.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I don't like Skip -
but he doesn’t grate on me the way Theriot does.
Besides, in another week or so, Skip’s wOBA will be higher than Theriot’s.
If we do anything other than release Skip in the offseason, I may start hating him more.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
That's where I am
My fondness for Skip on the level of personality is enough that I’m exactly screaming for his release quite yet, but I don’t want to see him back next year. Sometimes things just have to end.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
i mention how much i hate Theriot almost every time he comes up to bat now
and i think it has begun to annoy people.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Surely you jest:
Hardy has a .356 wOBA right now and is slugging .490. As a shortstop.
He’s also been an above average defender at short stop his entire career.
He hasn’t been that good — that’s laughable. He was a 2.5 WAR player last year and has been worth 2 WAR this year so far — he could be a 4-4.5 WAR player by the end of the season.
He’s only been “not very good” if you compare him to the elite players at his position, who could not have been acquired for a steak and a bag of baseballs in the offseason last year.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Sorry
I didn’t mean he hasn’t been very good this year. He started slow but he’s poured it on. I just meant coming off last year and the way he struggled in Milwaukee at times it wasn’t a given he was going to have a great year that he is having this year and when he got off to his slow start it looked like Baltimore made bad calls on Reynolds, hardy and lee but so far 2 of those 3 have worked out well for them.
by lopey986 on Jul 18, 2011 11:54 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Unlikely
Since Escobar just signed a team friendly contract
The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun
to stay in toronto
sbn’d
The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun
How about just getting Barmes?
Trade Skip (lower salary) + prospect, or just prospects. HOU is in full salary dump.
Use Theriot/Craig platoon at 2B.
I'm not really a fan of barmes and his .246 BA
and even so, there’s no way that tony would 1. trade skip or 2. use theriot at 2b
but I don't think barmes is enough of an upgrade to warrant a trade
also, with keppinger at 2b, houston probably wouldn’t want skippy if they’re dealing barmes. they’d get a bunch of prospects and we’d still have a meh MIF.
According to Fangraphs,
Barmes .246/.317./.346, wOBA .307, 1.7 WAR.
Theriot .288/.330./.344, wOBA .300, 0.2 WAR.
Not even worth it
Trying to deal with an in division team would be a headache and that’s not enough of an upgrade to justify it.
by lopey986 on Jul 18, 2011 11:13 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, I can see that he's better, but as lopey said, it's not a huge improvement and I think we would be better off keeping our prospects than replace theriot with barmes
On another note, guess who this mystery player is: .249/.310/.304., wOBA .280, 1.5 WAR
I would take Barmes over Theriot in a heartbeat
Barmes is just as bad as Theriot with the bat but he is really slick with the glove. All high school shortstops should watch Barmes play SS; he puts on a clinic.
I would definitely favor giving up a C prospect for Barmes; we’ve done other trades with Houston (like Feliz) so I don’t think the “intra-division” issue is an actual issue.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Right now, Houston shouldn't even consider being in-division
They’re looking to move players, and they don’t plan on being competitive for the next couple years.
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Agreed. I see no reason why Houston shouldn't trade with the Cards.
If Punto gets DL’d for a significant stretch, I’d really like to see a move made for Barmes.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
David Carpenter is actually a serviceable relief arm now.
That Feliz trade was just awful on all counts.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Remember, after something like five games,
and Feliz had a gaudy slash line, when folks were heralding the trade?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Yeah I went to that Giants series with some friends
I had the redass over the idea that he would help anything, and talked about with my friends. Probably too much. A couple of my friends were with me, but we had the one contrarian, and he was pretty self-satisfied most of the weekend.
Looking it up he had a multi hit game in each of the 3 games that series. Then he hit .178/.205/.206 the rest of the way.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 18, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Any guesses.....
on who comes up from AAA if Punto goes on the DL today, like was mentioned on the broadcast yesterday?
Injuries have KILLED us this year.
At least with Greene
there’s still the glimmer of hope that his AAA performance will suddenly start to show up in the majors.
I’ve got enough patience in me to be ok with letting him have one more crack at it before installing him firmly in the prospect graveyard.
I'd LOVE to see...
Greene get the majority of the starts at SS for the remainder of the year as a make or break trial. I really don’t see any way he’s a worse player than Theriot, and could be a ++ player.
Jimmy Ballgame for 2011 RFer!!!
by cardzfanbub on Jul 18, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
That won't happen
And really, it shouldn’t. You don’t give a make or break trial to a guy who has been pretty piss poor in the majors when you are in the thick of a pennant race. Besides, everyone loves theriot and there’s just no way he’s going anywhere.
by lopey986 on Jul 18, 2011 11:56 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
why not?
sure, it goes against conventional baseball wisdom, but prior stats would lead me to believe that over the rest of the season, Greene is going to be, at very worst, maybe half a win below replacement. i have absolutely no confidence that Ryan Theriot will accumulate even half a win above replacement the rest of the season.
you are, in the worst case scenario, losing a win over the rest of the season, with a guy who has been thought to have the tools to be worth a couple of wins before. and furthermore, we already know the weak point in this team is defense, not offense. Tyler Greene at least has the skills to be a good defensive player, even if he hasn’t shown them.
look, i know it’s not gonna happen, but that doesn’t mean it’s really a bad idea.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
and yes, i know a win is a lot-
but i would hope the chance of Greene materializing into a useful player is non-trivial. therefore, i would hope the expected value of this move would be at least close to scratch. and Tyler Greene achieving his potential is going to be worth a lot more to this team than Ryan Theriot playing at the absolute ceiling of his ability.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
August 1-ish, I think I read yesterday on the P-D site.
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
It'll be like trading for a player. . .
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jul 18, 2011 11:10 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
you know, budda, that's exactly right.
"I wonder if I put on a uniform and told La Russa I wanted to play for him if I could be a big leaguer too?"
"that all depends. are you gritty?" "You would need a mediocre decade of MLB experience first" "do you have a goatee, are you short, and do you try really hard?" "Are you willing to play four positions terribly?"
I think the way I could get on board with bringing miller up, is if we can’t acquire a starter. It’s become painfully obvious the mccellan isn’t going to work in the rotation.
by beer me on Jul 18, 2011 11:00 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I've never understood this line of thinking.....
IF calling up Shelby is even a remote possibility, why is he not already in AAA? If we’d be willing to try him at the ML level, we should be willing to stick him in AAA.
Personally, I don’t think this is something Mo or TLR is considering at all.
I don't think they'll call him
But not everyone goes a, aa, aaa in their minor league careers. Some guys jump straight from aa to the majors if their talent level warrants it.
by lopey986 on Jul 18, 2011 11:08 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
There are generally better hitters in AA than AAA.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Is that actually the line of reasoning?
I don’t think that’s necessarily true… I think it’s mostly “If a top prospect reaches AAA, he’s not going to stay there long”
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
There may be more "prospects" in AA
but there are better, professional hitters in AAA, even if there are a bunch of AAAA players there as well.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
A Cure for Colby
I know what will fix Clobby. He needs to find himself a good ol’ slumpbuster and take care of the business.
"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop
<blockquoteHe needs to find himself a good ol’ slumpbuster and take care of the business>
Rui’s mom is free.
The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun
Wow i fucked that block quote three different kinds of up.
The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun
Isnt he married with a kid?
I think that would probably cause more off field headaches for him.
by lopey986 on Jul 18, 2011 11:11 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well, see, that could actually be a problem
You’re a young, inexperienced possibly sensitive kid. You’re away from home 50% of the time or more assuming you’ve set up the family in St. Louis. Your young inexperienced wife is out of her league raising a kid, let alone raising a kid by herself . So when you’re in the middle of a huge slump, you get to come home and hear about that the whole time. You probably come home and get the “for god’s sake take care of the kid today I’m going insane” speech.
That’ll really cheer you up.
Yeah
Life sucks.
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
If colby is havin troubles at home
maybe he should read this and take a tip from the guy.
He grasped me firmly, but gently, just above my elbow and guided me into a room, his room. Then he quietly shut the door and we were alone. He approached me soundlessly, from behind, and spoke in a low, reassuring voice close to my ear.
“Just relax.”
Without warning, he reached down and I felt his strong, calloused hands start at my ankles, gently probing, and moving upward along my calves, slowly but steadily. My breath caught in my throat.
I knew I should be afraid, but somehow I didn’t care. His touch was so experienced, so sure. When his hands moved up onto my thighs, I gave a slight shudder, and partly closed my eyes. My pulse was pounding. I felt his knowing fingers caress my abdomen, my ribcage. And then, as he cupped my firm, full breasts in his hands, I inhaled sharply.
Probing, searching, knowing what he wanted, he brought his hands to my shoulders, slid them down my tingling spine and into my panties. Although I knew nothing about this man, I felt oddly trusting and expectant. This is a man, I thought. A man used to taking charge. A man not used to taking No for an answer. A man who would tell me what he wanted. A man who would look into my soul and say . . . .
“Okay ma’am, you can board your flight now.”
by ridgesee on Jul 18, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
oh hell no
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
i was joking, no worries
if i ever actually flagged a post i wouldn’t post flagged :P
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
about 1/3 of the way throught that
I just knew it was going to be a TSA joke.
by ArkansasTravs on Jul 18, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm assuming the young inexperienced wife has some pretty nice coaching
With her husband making a half million a year + endorsements (does Rasmus make any money off comericials).
I doubt Mama Rasmus is struggling to raise the kid, and I see no reason to believe there are problems at home. More speculative BS.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Nice coaching from whom?
Sure it’s speculative, I didn’t say it wasn’t. However, I can certainly look back on how I would have done at 24 years old.
We both know Colby hasn’t gone out and hired help. All I’m saying is that the boy probably has no “center” to his life to help get through stuff like this.
Coaching was a euphamism
For maid, or nanny, or family member who’ll help her out. I’m guessing Rasmus and Co has much more of a center than millions of other young, poor, couples, trying to raise kids.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed. The tendency to infantalize Rasmus on VEB is tiresome.
He’s a 24 y/o man for chrissakes.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
There is nothing wrong with Colby...
This is the most infuriating thing of the whole Colby mess.
There is nothing wrong with him. He’s just had a terrible BABIP during his slump. He’s still hitting line drives. They’ve just been right at people.
The real problem is that people have an insanely inflated view of his abilities. He’s more likely to be a .260/.350/.450 or so hitter when he has a BABIP of .300
It’s just right now, for the season, it’s around .280, so his BA average is a little lower. But he’s never going to be a .300 hitter. Last year his BABIP was .354 and he only managed a BA of .275…
This is why he needs to go to another city – the expectations for him here are just unreasonable…
Also
I want to lay pipe to hope Solo
The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun
Alex Morgan
Hit me up on Google+
by jd is legend on Jul 18, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
"lay pipe"
is really an underappreciated & underutilized euphemism.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Well...
when two people really love each other…
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Yeah. That term has disappeared.
Stupid Homeland Security Act.
by WizardofOz1982 on Jul 18, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
the only big problem with it
is its close similarity to “lay cable”, a favorite euphemism of mine for taking a dump.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
Not to be confused with "fixing the cable"
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
Don't be fatuous, Jeffrey
Stupid UCL's.
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Jul 18, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
r on ESPN again.
The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun
I quit
Apparently I’ve forgotten how to use a goddamn computer lol
The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun
oh, don't quit now.
I’m sure there are more ways to reply fail
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
what about ubaldo jimenez
Would the cost be too much?
by beer me on Jul 18, 2011 11:16 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Well they're asking for Montero + Nova + C prospect(that's a random guess, but I don't think that's unreasonable)
Then ours would start with Shelby/Carlos + Matthew Adams + C Prospect
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
I think I would be ok with a trade involving Carlos for a player like ubaldo. Ubaldo is still under team control for a few years and Carlos is still far enough out to be a question. If the cards were of the win now mentality this seems like a good deal and would still give us one of the top rotations for the next few seasons.
by beer me on Jul 18, 2011 11:23 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, he's signed for one more year and then two more club options
I might pull the trigger on that.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
That would give us wainwright, jimenez, carpenter (maybe), westbrook, and miller/Lynn next season. That’s a damn sexy rotation.
by beer me on Jul 18, 2011 11:31 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Woah chalk that up to it being Monday. Toss westbrook/carpenter
by beer me on Jul 18, 2011 11:34 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
you're still putting an awful lot on WW coming back full throttle
barely a year after TJ surgery. no thanks. I don’t trust to miracles and luck that much.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Jaime did it
*shrug
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
call me when you get to be 30
and tell me how quickly you heal up when compared to 21-22. there is a difference.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
k whats your number
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
867-5309
this isn’t the same, but it’s close: one of my nephews is a pitcher in college. he tore up his shoulder pretty good. Paletta did the surgery and essentially did three surgeries at the same time. It was bad enough that he had to carry this water-cooled sling with him to class every day and plug it in to help keep the swelling down. he’s all of 20 and barely 6 months later he’s throwing. if that had happened to a 30 yr old, I seriously doubt it would be that quick of a turn around.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
yup.
I’ve had a torn groin for over a year now even after PT.
www.stlgatekeepers.com
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
Go find a sports hernia specialist
Seriously
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
this.
you need to get that looked at.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
actually the 2nd sports ortho said I needed surgery
1st guy looked at the MRI and said it was a “mild adductor strain” put me through 6 weeks of PT, never got better and I wasted the 2010 season.
2nd guy looked at the same MRI and asked when I can do surgery, I told him MAYBE after Nationals in Oct. or until it completely falls off the bone :-)
I’m 31, not a chance I’m taking myself out for a year…
www.stlgatekeepers.com
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
If it's a sports hernia, which is sounds like it is, you'd be out about 6 weeks
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
it's not a tumor..at all
It’s just torn off the bone partially and has to be re-attached. My teammate, however, just had sports hernia or maybe just hernia surgery and was only out for a 6 weeks.
www.stlgatekeepers.com
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
Where did tumor come from?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
kindergarden cop quote, ftw
www.stlgatekeepers.com
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
You're not a sports hernia
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
shouldn't you still be celebrating your world cup win?
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Jul 18, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
h8 u
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
poor Americans
I haven’t seen that many disappointed chicks since I volunteered for a date raffle
HEY-O
by peppermartin on Jul 18, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
It's like gdm at a speed dating convention.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
OK now I feel terrible for saying that.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
ouch
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I know!
I’m a jerk.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
Especially since he's now patrolling these corridors at night.
Leaving on the lights.
Still not a werewolf.
I wouldn't say that you're a jerk.
you may have had a jerk moment.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not predictive.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
by Alxfritz on Jul 18, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I was trying to go off of the prior two years
of my reading his comments so as to head off an SSS arguments. Or do I need 3 for a true reading?
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Besides, maybe I only got a chance to try pulling off that kind of comment
because I have a wide commenting range? In that case you could hardly hold the error against me.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
hahahaha
that’s not getting old for a while yet
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 18, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
did you forget? Waino is going to be pitching in October
in OCTOBER!!
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
I disagree, unless the surgery didn’t go well.
by beer me on Jul 18, 2011 12:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
according to Heyman (yes, ok...)
Reds package for Jimenez “could be” Alonso, Wood, and Volquez. that sounds similar, value wise, to Martinez + Adams + C prospect to me.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
If the Rox don't want Montero, why would they want Alonso?
If O’Dowd fails to get one of the Reds’ catchers in that deal he should be fired.
Sign Carlos Silva!!!
Really?
That’s a pretty big haul for Jimenez, assuming Volquez is on track to get his head out of his ass.
http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz
I'm dubious that he ever will
and especially so at altitude. I can’t see his control problems actually getting BETTER in Colorado.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Because
Alonso is actually hitting a .879 OPS at AAA, can play 1b (Helton is retiring eventually), and isn’t too bad of a defender (Although he’s been playing OF recently if I’m not mistaken).
Montero’s value, however, has taken a nosedive recently. He hasn’t hit at all at Triple A (.760 OPS), still can’t defend to save his life, and the Yankees don’t want to sell low on him.
I would strongly prefer the Reds’ package if I were the Rockies.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
please please please let the reds make that trade.
"chipper jones grounds out, third baseman albert pujols to first baseman mark hamilton." 5.1.11 "carlos pena grounds into double play, second baseman allen craig to shortstop tyler greene to first baseman albert pujols." 5.12.11
by tom s. on Jul 19, 2011 12:19 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Especially with the velocity drop gocards62 noted.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
he's just not that great
we’d have to overpay imo
FIRE TONY RASMUS
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 18, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Jeff Francis
makes the most sense. Lefty starter that is interchangable with McClellan. Either one can be the reliever. (Guessing on Francis but he is a lefty!) Solid guy in his walk year at a reasonable contract.
"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop
interchangable? so we have a 5th starter platoon?
Maybe they could take turns starting and finishing games for each other. McClellan starts and throws 6IP then Francis closes it out by throwing 3IP. Then 5 days later they switch and Francis starts and McClellan closes.
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
Ha ha
With Francis you either have a LMOGY (Lefty Many Out Guy) reliever or a starter.
"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop
um....
FIRE TONY LARUSSA
trade colby.
twitter
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 18, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Valdes
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
by tehzachatak on Jul 18, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
this should be green
FIRE TONY RASMUS
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 18, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
If LOY was an annual award instead of some contrived 3-year plus UID mess
this guy would win.
I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.
he is also apparently a big SBN guy?
welcome, Justin. your posts and recs are cryptic- i appreciate that.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
I can confirm that he is a big SBN guy
Because we work together.
And he is fat.
Testicle-exploding shit storms, to date: T.E.S.S. '08, T.E.S.S. '09, T.E.S.S. '10
It's relative, like your mom
Testicle-exploding shit storms, to date: T.E.S.S. '08, T.E.S.S. '09, T.E.S.S. '10
Fucker ate all the donuts this morning.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
by Alxfritz on Jul 18, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
bye
no
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
there are whole swathes of this post I probably shouldn't read
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Would you say you have a plethora of posts?
www.stlgatekeepers.com
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
And you'd be right.
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
I hate Joe Strauss
I was just at the mothership catching up and read the latest trash from Strauss stirring things up about Colby/TRasmus/TLR. I didn’t know it was a Strauss article when I started reading it or I would not have read it. Is there a way to block Strauss articles so they don’t appear? I wish.
Can we trade strauss? I’m sure this idea has been brought up before. I would be willing to contribute to a fund to pay someone to take him off our hands.
Age is an issue of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter. Mark Twain
But we'd get a Brennamen back and maybe Brantley
and do we really want that?
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Someone tweeted that Brantley predicted Craig would pinch hit during a game over the weekend.
Ya know, even though Craig is on the DL.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
THOM and Brantley were deeply confused why Jay wasn't the full-time CF.
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Thom's voice thoroughly disturbs me
Though I guess I’d take it if forced to pick between him and Al – post neck surgery.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 18, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought they had replaced Al with Ernest Borgnine
Stupid UCL's.
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Jul 18, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
That would have worked if they had replaced Dan with
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Honestly
why would someone accept Joe Strauss in a trade? I mean, it be easier to send off a package of Schumaker, Westbrook, and Theriot to a team than it would be to trade Strauss.
Grit != flat out sucking.
yes, agree. That's why I would add in some cash.
Age is an issue of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter. Mark Twain
Freese, K-Mac, and Jared just got a caricature of themselves done
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
I thought it was Holliday, too.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I could see Holliday because of the dome
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 18, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
not to mention the subject line
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
The Subject Line also helped.
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
And c'mon, McClellan is obviously the one who loves New York
Not Matt Holliday.
Still not a werewolf.
Neat new tool...
Franchise to Franchise Trades on B-R
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
That's pretty awesome.
Neat to think that Hobie Landrith, Billy Muffett and Benny Valenzuela became Lou Brock.
by WizardofOz1982 on Jul 18, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow...in the last 10 years,
The only players the Cardinals have been able to extract from Central Division clubs via trade have been:
Mike DeJean
Jamey Wright
Jeff Fassero
Pedro Feliz
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
in the 10 years prior to that the list is:
Mike Morgan (Todd Zeile)
Jeff Brantley (Dmitri Young)
Fernando Vina (Juan Acevedo)
Jason Christenson (Jack Wilson)
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
good grief
Tallet has been truly awful this year. McClellan needs to replace him in the bullpen.
also, lots of commenting on an off day. good to see!
FIRE TONY RASMUS
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 18, 2011 4:46 PM EDT reply actions
it's Monday
what else i am supposed to do at work besides browse VEB?
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
But today's wComment+ is still just 102. It's okay.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
by Alxfritz on Jul 18, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, that's fine. That Rich Harden nonsense REALLY dragged it down.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
101 and trending down.
It’s really just reversion at work.
Has romantic inclinations toward Tony Cruz.
by a fink on Jul 18, 2011 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't like wComment+
it just doesn’t tell us enough about how good the comments actually are
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I prefer the GRN factor for that.
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
And upon review, this thread is currently lacking there
It’s got potential though.
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
What's our OACIP?
That’s On-topic Average for Comments In Play.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
is there no baseball today? geez...
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 67
Chris Duncan wants to trade Rasmus to the Nationals for Desmond and Storen.
I’m starting to get the feeling that he hasn’t gotten over 2009 yet…
Also, Skip Schumaker is ready to break out, always!
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
if he's about to break out, he should go see a dermatologist
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 67
Goodness forbid Skip's face be marred
it’s the only positive contribution he has to make to the team right now.
Joe Strauss is the greatest journalist since Edward R. Murrow.
Also, I would kiss Rui on the web cam.
he also wanted to trade him for Alex Gonzalez
and then again for Melky Cabrera.
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
yea...
actually I think the Melky trade was something like Rasmus and Boggs for Melky and Soria. The Alex Gonzalez trade proposal was straight up. Left Karraker nearly speachless
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
To be clear, is that one of the SS Alex Gonzalezes?
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
yea..
but he always tries to act like Colby is his buddy….there is just no way. The dude just doesn’t like Colby it seems.
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
At least he hasn't asked for him to be traded
For Julio Lugo yet. Or has he?
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 18, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought alex gonzalez was close enough
.260 OBP
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah it is
I haven’t heard him on the radio yet, but everyone in the media seems to think he’s doing a bang up job with it….what you guys are saying suggests maybe not so much.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 18, 2011 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
As long as he's not discussing Rasmus, he's okay.
And okay is worlds better than most analysts.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
I really enjoy listening to Chris Duncan...
Honestly I won’t be suprised if he eventually lands a job at ESPN or MLB network….but he needs to stop making these trade proposals
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I enjoy listening to him
His co-workers at 101 are always remarking on his dedication – he shows up multiple hours early to look up info and do show prep (they jokingly say there’s a batting cage somewhere in the building). Also, he’s fairly candid when they ask him questions about his baseball career (how did it feel to win the WS as a rookie, are you bitter about the injuries you got dealt, etc).
Honestly, he seems to have carved out a 2nd career for himself thus far, and for that I’m happy for him. He seems like a genuinely nice guy who caught a bad break with injury, but didn’t let it get him down.
His analysis is also
leaps and bounds better than Andy Van Slyke’s or Jason Simontacchi’s…He’s very entertaining and his silly trade proposals or almost endearing in a way….its kinda like…“i know the game, I’ll share my experiences, I’ll give you a little sneak peak on what its like in the clubhouse….but I have NO IDEA how the business side works”. Also, I believe he was the first to mention Cleto as a possible call-up. Everyone was like “HUH?!”. 2 days later Cleto was on the roster.
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions
So, VEB breaks the Duncan Trade story
Then Duncan breaks the Cleto call-up story. I think the logical next step is for Cleto to announce the Cardinals will soon trade Theriot, Samuel, and Kozma for Jose Reyes.
Keeping my fingers crossed!
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
Well
Ian Desmond is a upgrade over Theriot, but just barely, and that pretty much says it all.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 18, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
0.3% worse than Theriot
But .024 more ISO. And average in the field too!
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 18, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't lie to us like that.
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Since RR joined Hell's Angels, I'll take care of this
GO PISS UP A ROPE
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
So,
is Chris Duncan just reading MLBTR & Ken Rosenthal speculation aloud on the air? Or, does he just take their dots and connect them?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Dirty Dan's Defense
I wasn’t around this weekend. What was VEB’s consensus of Dirty Dan’s D at SS? He’s probably still below league avg, but he appeared to have more range and obviously a stronger arm than Theriot.
by Handsome B Wonderful on Jul 18, 2011 5:08 PM EDT reply actions
if punto did not have an arm he could play ss
FIRE TONY RASMUS
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 18, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Made some good plays, one really crappy play.
Needs to get transitions straight but he looks better than Theriot.
http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz
if anyone can play second, and our second baseman
Can play short, by the transitive property, anyone can play shortstop.
QED.
"chipper jones grounds out, third baseman albert pujols to first baseman mark hamilton." 5.1.11 "carlos pena grounds into double play, second baseman allen craig to shortstop tyler greene to first baseman albert pujols." 5.12.11
by tom s. on Jul 19, 2011 12:26 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
FYI - Cards versus NLC
vs CHI = 5-1 (9 left)
vs CIN = 5-7 (3 left)
vs HOU = 6-2 (7 left)
vs MIL = 2-4 (12 left)
vs PIT = 1-2 (13 left)
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
We really need to go at least .500 against the Brewers and Reds if we want to win this division
TRADE FOR RICH HARDEN
Those Cincy games are in the book.
What we need to do is to remind the humble franchises in Milwaukee and Pittsburgh who they really are.
Has romantic inclinations toward Tony Cruz.
yeah
we are at least as good as those teams right now. probably better. if we get a starter…
FIRE TONY RASMUS
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 18, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd say that we need to pound the Pirates into submission
and just play .550 against everyone else.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Jake Westbrook...
This offseason, any chance we could do a salary dump exchange? What if Seattle was going to make the money even for Chone Figgins? I just really want next year’s rotation to be: Wainwright, Carpenter, Garcia, Lohse, and Shelby Miller….Also, considering the possibility that K-Mac’s salary soars after 3 solid relief seasons and an avererage season of starting….Isn’t it possible he gets non-tendered? Do we really want to pay $4 mill+ for K-Mac out of the pen?
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 5:26 PM EDT reply actions
Westbrook
ERA: 5.26
FIP: 4.57
xFIP: 3.99
With those big gaps, it’s a bit early to be getting rid of Westbrook. We might be better served getting rid of the SS and 2B.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
yeah...
but that doesn’t solve the rotation situation for 2012. More Carp and Miller. Less Westy.
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
that'd be awesome if we could get rid of schuriot
FIRE TONY RASMUS
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 18, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
You know Chone Figgins is hitting .183/.230/.243, right?
And that he has made 10 errors already?
TRADE FOR RICH HARDEN
I'm aware Figgins has been terrible.
He’s just the first one I thought of as a salary dump option coming back. It seems the only way we can ditch Westbrook, unless someone is willing to deal a no-name prospect for him and eat his salary, which I think is considerably less likely.
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, I don't think Figgins is THAT bad...
the last 2 seasons prior to this year he total 175 BB’s and 84 SB’s. His career line is .281/.352/.368. If we could get him for what we were going to pay Westbrook anyway or maybe slightly more I don’t think its a terrible move. He could perhaps be a solid lead-off hitter and play 2B. I’d envision .260/.345/.355 with about 30 steals. That would open up the rotation to include Shelby and we can re-work Carpenter’s option into a 2 year deal. We would essentially be paying 4-5 million per season for 2 years for Figgins, While Seattle would be paying 15-17 million for 1 year of Westbrook and to get Figgins off their team. Bad deal for Seattle, but they did something similar with the Silva/Bradley deal while taking on one of the worst clubhouse presences of all time.
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Joe Strauss reporting that there still is a chance Colby Rasmus is traded.
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
by TBender on Jul 18, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Also, Ryan Theriot for Hanley Ramirez might be in the works.
Might.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
It's Brie Time BABY!
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
You might.
I still don’t understand the appeal. She looks like a chipmunk.
by WizardofOz1982 on Jul 18, 2011 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
....
Strauss: What do you think the chances are that a guy like Colby gets traded?
Mo: Well, Joe, that’s difficult to say. I mean, we don’t really…
Strauss: Hit me with it! Just give it to me straight! I came a long way just to see you, Mo. The least you can do is level with me. What are the chances?
Mo: Not good.
Strauss: You mean, not good like one out of a hundred?
Mo: I’d say more like one out of a million.
[pause]
Strauss: So you’re telling me there’s a chance… YEAH!
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 10 recs
i've been saying that these trade scenarios are silly all along
mo’ has said all along that colby isn’t available.
doin’ what strauss wants…
Crossing fingers for that August 1
“Rasmus fails to attract serious offers” article.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 18, 2011 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
that is good
but I want a starting pitcher too…
FIRE TONY RASMUS
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 18, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
The only plausible trade involving Colby I'd be okay with before this year's deadline
is purple_haze’s Rasmus for Rasmus trade.
Still not a werewolf.
An inter-divisional challenge trade of under-achievers, hoping that a change-o'-scenery might help.
Makes a lot of sense.
Has romantic inclinations toward Tony Cruz.
Boo
I for one am sick of the Rasmus drama. He needs to go for the good of the city, the organization, and more importantly, for his own good.
He’s never ever going to live up to expectations here. He can’t. He’s just not that good. This season is what you should expect from him, not last year (where he had a crazy high BABIP).
I just don’t get the point in making him miserable and his life a living hell for the next few years, just to prove a point in the supposed Sabermetric vs Old School debate going on in the Cardinals organization (and media).
Especially when you are probably only saving .10 between him and Jay. (Rasmus is probably a .340 wOBA player, and I think Jay is a .330 on)
prefatory nonsense, unsupported generalization.
Misrepresentation. Unsupported genralization.
Thanks for your contribution.
"chipper jones grounds out, third baseman albert pujols to first baseman mark hamilton." 5.1.11 "carlos pena grounds into double play, second baseman allen craig to shortstop tyler greene to first baseman albert pujols." 5.12.11
by tom s. on Jul 19, 2011 12:32 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If I'm nexdef'd on this, I apologize.
Punto will not be placed on the DL, “at least for now”:
“The exam he had didn’t show anything had to be done now — like cut him or anything — but you see him make that throw,‘’ La Russa said Saturday night. "He’s either got it in the back of his mind or there’s something there, so I think we need to replace him.
Punto later admitted that pain, rather than fear of it, was the cause.
“Right now we’re taking it day by day based on how he feels,” general manager John Mozeliak said Sunday.
Asked what may have caused the change in course based on Saturday’s comments, Mozeliak said, “He feels better.”
Punto, a switch-hitter, insisted before Sunday’s game, “I can run and I can swing a bat,” but acknowledged some discomfort when swinging lefthanded. If Punto remains unavailable to play in the field, the Cardinals carry only one extra infielder available for defense.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Given our record with injury management
I give it no more than three days till the diagnosis escalates to acute liver failure or “exploding arm syndrome” or something.
this is different though
people were reporting he might be out for the year. anything short of that is positive.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
IT'S NEVER LUPUS!
"I wonder if I put on a uniform and told La Russa I wanted to play for him if I could be a big leaguer too?"
"that all depends. are you gritty?" "You would need a mediocre decade of MLB experience first" "do you have a goatee, are you short, and do you try really hard?" "Are you willing to play four positions terribly?"
sounds like Punto doesn't want to go to the DL
and testing aren’t showing enough to force him to go.
Grit != flat out sucking.
larussa must have been being sarcastic
he thinks that their defensive specialists should never make any throwing errors. like ever.
FIRE TONY RASMUS
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 18, 2011 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
At the end of the day is a hobbled Punto worse than Tyler Greene or Pete Kozma?
I’m not so sure that he is.
Joe Strauss is the greatest journalist since Edward R. Murrow.
Also, I would kiss Rui on the web cam.
by azruavatar on Jul 18, 2011 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
today is an offday?
3 days after the all star break? which was a game longer for the cards than other teams?
I think I would like to see the Cardinals trade for Erik Bedard.
"not everything is about you, Rains" -Fritz
haha...
texter on 101 just called John Mozeilak “Young Ben Stein”….I like it
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 6:12 PM EDT reply actions
i dunno if that's a compliment
because stein is a well respected economist-type or an insult because he’s exceptionally dry
i don't know if its either,
but it certainly fits
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
a comment on MLBTR, re: colby
his dad also said his son wants to spend the rest of his career in STL from how much he enjoys it here. From the interview on 101espn com from a few days ago
true?
Not verbatim, but made it sound like earlier this season he was very happy here.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
possible reason for delaying Punto to DL?
better pinch hitter than Kozma/Greene
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 18, 2011 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
lolol
it’s clear Theriot did jab his hips and pelvis toward the umpire in an attempt to make contact
http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2011/07/ryan_theriot_ejection_cardinals_reds.php
Hopefully he's suspended for the rest of the year for sexual assault.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2011 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions 10 recs
I'm pretty sure betting on the game and humping the umpire are like, numbers 1 and 1A of things you just can't do in baseball
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
by mattybobo on Jul 18, 2011 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
more
Theriot was ejected not for making contact with Muchlinski, but rather because he used a certain 10-letter word that is a no-no with umpires. (Hint: it rhymes with rock-chucker.)
He didn't call the ump a rock-chucker at first
He said it was a rock-chucking call! That’s different. But then the ump wouldn’t let it go and you know how that turned out.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
Been away for the weekend
Quick, i need to know every thing thats happened in the world of baseball since the all star break ended.
All i want to do, is get close to you and wake up in the early morning dew
Ryan Theriot went bat-shit crazy on an ump for missing a force out call.
Has romantic inclinations toward Tony Cruz.
There may have been pelvic contact, which could result in a suspension.
Yes, really.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
I'm not gonna lie, this is getting kind of erotic.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
He looked into the umpire's eyes with an intense passion.
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
or possibly, a date.
"chipper jones grounds out, third baseman albert pujols to first baseman mark hamilton." 5.1.11 "carlos pena grounds into double play, second baseman allen craig to shortstop tyler greene to first baseman albert pujols." 5.12.11
by tom s. on Jul 19, 2011 12:36 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
New Thread
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

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