Colby Rasmus' Worth
by tonyy on Jul 11, 2011 12:45 PM EDT
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It's been brought up in a couple of recent fanposts including one of my own, so im curious to know what many of you think Colby Rasmus is worth. Some people made some very good points about the main asset Colby has is that he is cost controlled. A young, very talented CF with power and plays above average defense should be able to net us a lot in return, but im not sure if there is anything that we could realistically get back that would make it worth wild.
I trully feel that given Jon Jay's development, his consistency, his defense, and his ability to hit left handed pitching, that he makes more sense for this lineup if we could net some top prospects or very solid pitching. I threw out the ideas of going after Reyes or Kemp but people have argued that we wouldn't be able to sign them to long term contracts. I definitely agree with that statement regarding Reyes, but Kemp is under contract for another year for only 5.5 million and then, in 2013 ( assuming berk comes back next year), Berkman's 8-10 million will surely be gone and we could compensate that money towards Kemp's salary. I might be dreaming since he is the Dodgers best player but if they don't believe they can sign him, will they honestly risk getting no immediate assets in return? Given a team with financial issues, I think Rasmus is exactly what they do need. But then again they don't have to really consider trading Kemp until next season since he is under contract so maybe talks about things like that would wait until the offseason.
Also, i head Buster Olney says yesterday that people write up trade proposals all the time on the interenet and many of them seem like they would work, but that no one takes into account the relationships between the GM's of those two clubs. Now aside from the A's, who Jocketty seemed to do all his big trades with, do any of you know who Mozeliak has a good relationship with/is more likely to do a trade with?
So, I'm trying to see what you guys think? Is it worth seeing what we could get for Colby, and what do you think he real worth is to other ball clubs.
Also, on a different note, im fairly new to twitter and was wondering if you guys had any people you would recommend following in regards to news/updates on the Cardinals?
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I'm really torn at this point...
I think it would be really interesting to see what Jay could do on a regular basis, but at the same time… the potential (if he could ever harness it all regularly) that Rasmus has… man. Though it never hurts to window shop I suppose…
As far as relationships, I know Mo has dealt with the Padres on multiple occasions (Westbrook, Edmonds), and the A’s of course (Holliday), as well as the Indians (DeRosa). I believe he’s on good terms with the Rockies (IIRC he organized the Aaron Miles/Ray King deal while Asst. GM to Jocketty).
I’m not on Twitter, but I have friends who signed up for the purpose of Baseball/Cardinals news, and they all opted for at least Derrick Goold and Bernie Miklasz, amongst others.
Playing everyday from the date of the Ludwick trade until season's end,
Jay hit .239/.302/.307/.609. I like Jon Jay. I have since his minor-league days. But I am aware of his falling back down to earth at the end of last year and how much that hurt us during the pennant race. Playing everyday, Jay could very well see his luck even out just as brutally this year. Jay isn’t as good with a bat as he is hitting right now and Rasmus isn’t as bad with a bat as he is hitting right now. I think the current four-outfielder set-up is just fine, especially with our injury concerns at multiple positions.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I think Jay is playing better this year
and seems to have “put it together more” as opposed to last year. Yes, these are all vague descriptive terms and in no way backed up by any quantitative data. But, at least from the games I’ve watched, it does appear that Jay could be the starting CF on some team somewhere this year (I wouldn’t have said it last year).
That said, I would agree that Jay is playing above his averages and Rasmus is quite the opposite. And we’d be selling low on Rasmus. I understand all the arguments really. I suppose it’s just because they’re such polar opposites at this moment (one playing very well, the other playing quite poorly), and the fact that after years of rooting for Ras, I’m starting to get frustrated with his continued… what would appear to be a lack of whatever (focus, fire, etc).
Honestly, what hazel said below is probably the best course – trading Jay while he’s hot. Fortunately, at the moment, as you said, the 4-man OF we have going seems to be fine. Whenever Craig comes back (and at what level of production) would be when the time arrives to make a choice – not necessarily a choice b/w Jay and Ras, but on who stays and who goes (trade, sending someone such as Tony Cruz or a pitcher back down…)
but you need to regress his BABIP up to league average during that time frame.
Grit != flat out sucking.
er sorry
You’re not someone who keeps pounding jay’s BABIP into the ground. I agree with you that I like Jay as a 4th out fielder much better than a starting CFer.
Grit != flat out sucking.
No, I'm not.
I don’t think that Jon Jay will retire with a .350ish BABIP, but I also don’t know how far to regress it. I like Jay as a player a lot. I like Rasmus as a player a lot. the fourth outfielder is a TLR staple and, with injuries, I don’t think it would be wise to trade either one.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I'm gonna guess Jay's about a .310-320 BABIP guy
hits it reasonably hard, doesn’t hit too many flyballs, and generally seems to make reasonably solid contact.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 12, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Is that really true though?
Some players just happen to have a higher BABIP than others.
In his minor league career, Jay pretty much always had a high one. His lowest was .272 in a short stint at AA in 2007, and .303 in a full year at AAA in 2009. Other times it’s just sky high.
Conversely, Rasmus pretty much always had a low one in the minors. (in his first year, it was high, but his next three years it was.275, .300, .287 .
I’m not saying Jay is the next Ichiro, but I do think it’s quite possible he will hit more or less like ths, which is basically what Skip did in his prime. Only he’s not as bad defensively as Skip, thus making CF a viable option for him. Jay doesn’t hit enough for a corner outfielder, but he would for a CFer…
I wouldn't use MiLB BABIP to predict MLB BABIP.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Why?
Wouldn’t there be some correlation?
"In the end, ... I have to learn my own swing. Then maybe I'll be whatever everyone wants me to be." -Colby
by The Continental on Jul 11, 2011 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions
BABIP typically drops as a player rises and there are league considerations.
I’ve read more on this, but I can’t find at the moment.
Here’s one excerpt from 2007:
Pretty typically, a batter loses between 4 and 6% of their BABIP going from AAA to the majors, 3-5% from AA to AAA and less for lower level promotions.
Also, looking at Jay’s BABIP doesn’t tell us much in isolation. What was the league or even team BABIP? Both the Texas League and PCL are well-known as hitter’s leagues. So, what is the league BABIP? If the league has an average BABIP that is higher than what one would expect for MLB, there’s likely a reason other than Jon Jay’s skill. I feel we need more context and analysis that looking at Jay’s MiLB BABIP and declaring him a high-BABIP skill player.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
it's hard
I don’t think his BABIP is going to stick at the rate it is. I also don’t recall him getting a lot of ljam shots for hits, or a lot of infield singles. So I don’t think it’s ALL luck and that he is a just an average player in that regard. I’m will to let him ride it out and give him credit for what he has now.
Grit != flat out sucking.
the crux of his BABIP is that he's the biggest groundball hitter on the team -- worse (better?) than schumaker.
at 54.4%, he has the highest GB rate on the team (other than pitchers). he combines that with a high LD rate- 22.2%. since flyballs have the lowest BABIP on them – lower than GB’s – that means that he will tend to have a high BABIP. add in some decent speed, and you have a predilection for high BABIP.
it is odd to think of jay having a high GB rate, since he has substantially more power than, say, schumaker, but he does get the ball on the ground a lot.
"chipper jones grounds out, third baseman albert pujols to first baseman mark hamilton." 5.1.11 "carlos pena grounds into double play, second baseman allen craig to shortstop tyler greene to first baseman albert pujols." 5.12.11
Even though Jay isn't that fast,
“With your speed, you should be hitting the ball on the ground and be legging them out.”
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Hitters, of course, have varying true BABIP talent's
But over the past 10 years there has been exactly one player with significant playing time who has a higher BABIP than Jay does for his career, and that’s Ichiro.
Jay has done a thing that a lot of crappy baseball players have done – had about a full season’s worth of an elevated BABIP at the start of his career. These names, in recent years, include Austin Jackson, Reggie Willits, Chris Coglan, Willy Taveras, etc.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 13, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
how many players have had a BABIP higher than Jay
for 2-3 years during their prime?
Grit != flat out sucking.
I don't know
But any players prime is going to be influenced by luck.
Jay is going to have a .310-.320 BABIP going forward, are you really going to argue against that as the most likely scenario?
by vivaelpujols on Jul 14, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
it wouldn't hurt to look at the possibilities....
….I didn’t like the idea of trading Rasmus because of supposed ‘clubhouse issues’; but now that he’s hitting sub-.250 and shown competency but not wizardry in center, I wonder if he cud net us a lot and keep Jay out there. Jay doesn’t have Razzy’s ceiling, but he’s not that much of a drop-off, while he cud give us a proven SS or starter. he totally lame-assed that ball off Carp the udder night and it pissed me off. I know its not fair to cowpare him to Jimmy BG, but Jimmy would not have allowed that to happen. I don’t think Jay would either, although he clearly lacks Razzy’s power potential. For the right package I’d do it, but let’s not run him out of town on a rail, let’s help the team if we can.
Maybe a trade with the O’s that nets us a Britton/Matuz and a Hardy?
Griebenschmaltz!
re: Kemp
he was no better than Rasmus before this year, when he took a massive step forwards. Kemp was pretty abysmal last year, in fact, quite a lot worse than Colby. He’s been immense this year but I think there remains a question mark over how good he’s going to be in future.
Now aside from the A’s, who Jocketty seemed to do all his big trades with, do any of you know who Mozeliak has a good relationship with/is more likely to do a trade with?
In recent years, we’ve made multiple trades with the Padres and Indians, but I imagine Cleveland won’t want to give up on any of their assets this year as they’ve got a surprising shot at the playoffs, and I can’t see anything much on the Padres that helps us (although I might give up a B-level prospect for one of their lefty bullpen arms).
I know you clearly don’t like Rasmus, but he’s probably one of our better players going forward and is clearly better than Jay. I’m not a huge Rasmus fan this year, he is beginning to frustrate me a bit and I don’t think anybody can argue anymore that he’s not a pretty mediocre defender in CF, but I’d not trade him unless we got a high-end shortstop in return. If Florida had any interest in trading Hanley I’d definitely be inclined to put an offer in, and (even though they’ve currently got Coghlan in CF and solid options at RF and LF) potentially include Rasmus. He’s owed about $15m/yr for the next 3 seasons after this, and has basically sucked this year. I’d consider playing him at SS now, and moving him to 2B in future. This post examines a little bit the Marlin’s possible trading requirements, http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/trading-hanley-ramirez/ although to be honest it’s a bit of a crappy article. I’d imagine they’d be more interested in Shelby Miller or Carlos Martinez for HanRam, anyhow, and I’m not convinced I’d definitely want to give up one of them.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 11, 2011 3:34 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
If the perceptions of Rasmus outside St. Louis are anything like the perceptions inside,
we would be selling low. Better to trade Jay since he is the one performing at an unsustainable level.
http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz
Exactly.
This is the equivalent of the Angels dumping Edmonds after he hit .250/.339/.426 in 1999. It would be trading a skilled player at the absolute fallout bottom of his value.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 11, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
agreed, FWIW.
also, I think it’s possible Adron Chambers can put up similar numbers as a 4th OF (I said similar, not quite as good – also, I think Jay can be an everyday player whilst Adron will be strictly a bench guy).
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 11, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
i completely agree with this.
no one seems to be suggesting that we trade jay, even though that would absolutely be the correct move. chambers can do 80% (or more?) of what jay is doing, jay and colby both hit lefthanded and play center field, jay’s value will never be higher, and we just flat out don’t need him. craig is better than jay. jay is better than the fifth outfielder and would start on a lot of teams. trade him.
miller for miles!
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 11, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think we should trade either
Here are a few questions and answers
Q: What can we get in return for Colby Rasmus that will help this team win a world series this year?
A: A hell of a lot.
Q: What can we get in return for Jon Jay that will help this team win a world series this year?
A: Not very much.
Q: Will trading Rasmus pay off in the long run?
A: No, it will not.
Q: Will trading Jon Jay pay off in the long run?
A: I’m not sure, but chances are better than trading Colby.
Q: Can Jay get done what Rasmus can get done this year if we trade Colby?
A: I believe so. Jay has a higher wOBA by .18 points this year. And so far he has played better defense. However, Colby does have ability to play at a level that can carry a team for a week or so. Jay doesn’t.
Q: If we trade either of them… who will play center on days off?
A: I have no idea. It would be great if we have a right handed CFer. I would be more worried about Jay playing against lefties everyday if we trade Colby. I don’t want it to be Chambers thats for sure.
Honestly, I don’t think we should trade either guy. Jay isn’t going to have the value that ludwick had. So if we are looking at pitching then we trading away a useful piece to replace something that’s just as useful. Replacing westbrook (or McClellan) with another westbrook and losing Jay is going to be a net lost IMO.
At least with trading Rasmus we would have a chance to improve the team for this year. Though it’s still a bit of a gamble in that regard. And it will be one hell of a hangover after we wake up next off season.
Grit != flat out sucking.
ACtually, I could see Jay having Ludwick-like value
but that value only bought us a league-average-ish pitcher for half a season. I’m not sure that helps us hugely this year (maybe one win, tops). Jay’s cost controlled and is arguably as good as Ludwick, so perhaps he has even more value.
All that said, the consensus is correct here – I think we should keep both players. You and bgh have made very strong arguments for the status quo.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 12, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Trade Jay to the Pirates for Paul maholm
The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun
It's too bad the Pirates aren't run by a group of village idiots anymore
We could have probably gotten them to throw in Neil Walker in that deal back in ’01.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
He's pretty underrated.
I thought – Maholm, he sucks – then I looked at the stats and am shocked at how good they are.
"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 12, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
He's their best pitcher right now
The anchor of their entire staff.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I think he might have the largest ERA-FIP gap in the last two years
’10 – 5.18 ERA, 4.18 FIP
’09 – 4.44 ERA, 3.83 FIP
It’s ridiculous how bad the Pirates D is and/or how unlucky he has been. The opposite is happening this year which is good but he’s still having a career year.
"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 12, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Which, one would have to question:
Would that change much in St. Louis? We’re one of the worst defensive teams in baseball this season by the metrics.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
And the Pirates are in the top third defensively, aren't they?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
OTOH (and this is from a Maholm fan)
it’s also possible that he suffers from choke syndrome, and that he legitimately pitches worse with runners on etc.
I’d take that risk, personally, because I think he’s a definite upgrade and might not cost much. Has a $9m option next year as well, which I think is fairly affordable (though it probably means no Carp).
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 12, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
The thing is, while I think Rasmus is a much better player...
I don’t think he will be one in St. Louis.
It’s a hostile environment from the coaching staff to the fans to the media. And Colby does not strike me as being the most mentally tough guy – when he faces criticism, he goes make into his shell like a turtle.
Bleh, this is a tired excuse.
4.3 fWAR last year. I like how many people forget that he WAS successful last year. I’m not shouting out at you in particular but it’s fucking bullshit how many people just brush last year aside as if it never happened.
Jay will never have 4.3 fWAR in a season. Yeah I know, he’s in his second season and I shouldn’t say something like that. If he did it, he’d pretty much be defying every projection there is. The chances are like less than 5% that he ever gets 4.3 fWAR. I don’t like those odds.
Considering Rasmus already had a 4.3 fWAR season, his odds are dramatically better not to mention he has the potential to hit 5-6 WAR.
"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 12, 2011 5:26 AM EDT up reply actions
The same Rasmus who
last year demanded to be traded while being successful. So the turtle theory has some merit. The guy may be a great player but his problem is between the ears.
"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop
It makes no sense to trade him whatsoever NOW
If we were to trade him on July 12 tomorrow, there is absolutely no way we win the trade judging it completely by the time of the trade. If we somehow come out on top in the end, it was completely lucky like the JD Drew/Waino trade.
Rasmus might be at his lowest point he’ll ever be from a trade perspective. The value Rasmus provides is not even close to the trade value he has right now. Easy example, Rasmus seems a pretty sure bet to hit 3 WAR for the next four years. Or at least average that. Well that’s 10.6 (not counting his 1.6… YES he is almost a league average player who has 700 PAs with nearly half the PAs even with his struggles).
We need to get either two 1.5 regulars (which is still less valuable since 1 player providing 3 WAR > two players providing 3 WAR) or get a top prospect in baseball. Tell me: You really think we’re going to get that in return. I sure don’t.
"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker
COlby for Shields straight up is a fair deal
with the bounce he’ll get moving to the NLC, Shields might be a 5 WAR pitcher. Colby’s what, a 4 WAR guy, generously, at the moment? Shields makes a little more but both are under team control for 3 more years. Shields fills a real position of need.
I’d do this straight up. Might even be tempted to throw in a C prospect or two, but nothing of huge value.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 12, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
while I dont support the decision to trade Rasmus,
I think the Marlins are a potential match in a package for Nolasco and perhaps Nunez.
Also, Id sure like to be a fly on the wall for Colbys arb hearing next year. I cant imagine that would help his confidence. Im hoping Mo locks up his arb years, which might give him more confidence and we stick with Jay as the 4th OF.
Besides, I think SP is a MUCH bigger problem going forward. With Albert, Freese and Craig back the lineup will be just fine – we’ve already seen that early in the season. However Westbrook is a mess and McClellan would do us more good in the pen.
by rlgosnell on Jul 12, 2011 10:37 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Nunez isn't very good
I’d hate to trade for him. Nolasco is good and all, but he’s getting expensive soon. I’m not sure I make that trade.
Bear in mind that, although they don’t have a full time CF, they also don’t have a proper spot for Chris Coghlan, and unless they’re giving up on him it’s hard to see them trading for Rasmus.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 12, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
request
I think this comments section needs that cumulative WAR chart of Rasmus vs Jimmy vs (can’t remember who the third player was).
This smacks of shortsightedness, in my opinion, and reeks of impatience. I think any trade we made, especially seeing that we are in ‘win now’ mode, would be regrettable five years from now.
I think it was Andy Van Slyke actually.
I think he’s referring to my Fangraphs comparison of those three from a main thread a while back.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Everyone looking at this situation sees it one of two ways:
1. Colby is JD Drew: He doesn’t fit in in St. Louis, he has conflicts with the coaching staff, and he is talented but highly inconsistent. We should trade him for Adam Wainwright.
2. Colby is Jim Edmonds: If we trade him, chances are he goes on to mature in his late 20s and eclipses 4 WAR not just once but many times over for his next team and we will get stuck with little to show for it.
The fact is that neither of these is the case. Colby is quantifiably one of the streakiest hitters in the last five years:
And the obvious reality that his hitting is now at a low ebb is a guarantee that we will not be able to trade him for great value. The fact is that if a great offer comes along, we should trade Colby, especially if it helps us shore up the middle infield with an above average cheap SS or 2B, but the fact is that that is simply not likely to happen. So it behooves us to be patient with Rasmus while we hold on to the evidence that, yeah, he is streaky as hell, but that means that streaks like this April will also happen.
Frankly, the animosity toward the kid has grown to the point that I am practically disgusted with some of the reactions to Rasmus. Yes, he makes bad plays sometimes, but seeing people write that he isn’t “giving a big league effort” (on VEB of all places) is trite, nonsensical, and unsupported by the facts. We had a similar situation occur last offseason in which we let a streaky but talented player go to have him replaced by a “steady hand” that would bring “consistency” and that resulted in Ryan Theriot at shortstop. Consistent players can suck just as much as inconsistent ones, and if consistent play is the thing you put the most value on, then you’re likely to make bad player decisions.
http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz
by hazel on Jul 12, 2011 10:53 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
All the bases have been covered here
So I’m just going to point to this graph:
Top graph is wOBA by season. Bottom graph is wOBA by age.
Now, let’s compare what Jay is doing right now to what Rasmus might be doing when he’s the same age as Jon Jay. Then look at Van Slyke, who was a pretty consistent .350+ wOBA player in CF from age 24-32. The problem here is that everyone wants Colby Rasmus to be a superstar and when he’s not a superstar we should just trade him in favor of the slappy, older, college-educated-but-less-talented player. It’s really, really silly to think like this. There’s about 20 teams that would fall over backwards to have a .350 wOBA player manning CF for them. We have one. And we treat him like he’s some replacement level player because he doesn’t look like Jim Edmonds from ‘01-’05.
It’s complete and utter nonsense.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Huh?
The comparison isn’t Colby to Jay. The comparison (if we trade Colby), is the difference in Colby/Jay in CF, and the different in whomever we acquire and who he replaces. Why does it matter where are “wins/WAR” come from?
Do I really need to do a block-quote-a-thon of the original post?
I trully feel that given Jon Jay’s development, his consistency, his defense, and his ability to hit left handed pitching, that he makes more sense for this lineup if we could net some top prospects or very solid pitching.
He sure seems to be saying that Jon Jay makes Colby Rasmus fungible. My point is: Not only is that false, the inverse is actually true.
Colby is a better player than Jon Jay. Colby is younger than Jon Jay. He’s more talented than Jon Jay. He has a higher ceiling than Jon Jay. If we’re going to trade an outfielder on the current roster, then it should be Jon Jay. Trading Colby Rasmus would be selling low on a player with considerable potential while trading Jon Jay would be selling high on a player with limited potential, who could well be performing at his potential right now with nowhere to go but down.
The entire “trade Colby Rasmus” argument is based on a number of fallacies:
- Colby Rasmus is not a valuable player (False)
- Jon Jay is a more valuable player than Colby Rasmus (False)
- Even though Colby Rasmus isn’t a valuable player, other teams would trade us the faces of their franchises (Reyes, Kemp, etc.) to acquire him (Double False)
- Colby Rasmus doesn’t get along with Tony LaRussa (False, because you can’t possibly know the full dynamic. If you believe everything you read in the paper, you’re essentially saying that Jeff Passan actually knows what he’s talking about)
I mean, WTF people? There’s a ridiculous amount of hate out there for a player who, while streaky at the plate and merely adequate in the field, provides a ton of value to the ballclub based on his considerable talents and has demonstrated flashes of being a 5-6 WAR player if he can ever put it all together. Why on God’s green earth would the organization want to trade that guy? Why would we trade him for pitching prospects when our current farm system has a lot of B or better pitching prospects already? Why would we trade him for prospects when we’re in a pennant race?
In my view, Colby Rasmus’ biggest problem is that he’s not Jim Edmonds, and people thought he was going to be Jim Edmonds based on his full season in AA, which most of us who follow the farm have demonstrated that left handed hitters tend to have Ruthian seasons there and then never approach those numbers again.
Would I like him to be a 30 homer, .400 OBP guy? Yes, I would. But that doesn’t mean we should just toss him off the boat when he’s a 20 homer .350 OBP guy, because that’s still a very valuable player.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
by fourstick on Jul 12, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
In regards to this:
Why does it matter where are "wins/WAR" come from?
Are you saying:
- We could trade Colby Rasmus for a current major league player that provides us the same marginal WAR at the same price, and that we can get the same WAR for the same/similar price over the next 3 seasons?
- That Dollars per WAR doesn’t matter in this conversation, when we’re about 3 months from offering a certain first baseman upwards of $30M per season?
- We should trade Rasmus for future prospects that would then give us more WAR in the future? If so, that’s not what the OP is saying, for one, and for two, should we be trading away valuable pieces in a year in which we are contending in order to acquire potentially valuable pieces of some future team 2-3 years from now? And who are those pieces that some other team would be willing to give up?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I don't think anyone would argue against the trade if,
We could trade Colby Rasmus for a current major league player that provides us the same marginal WAR at the same price, and that we can get the same WAR for the same/similar price over the next 3 seasons
Especially if that player was a shortstop. It would be nice.
http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz
This is a great point
I think the way we need to view this is not “is Jay better than Colby” it’s “is Colby better than Jay plus Player X that you traded Colby for.”
Personally, I can see the advantage to keeping Colby around for as long as he is under team control. But if the question is raised that “Colby could be traded for Player X, and that would really solidify our postseason standing, in a year where it might be our last chance with Albert,” then honestly, I would have to stop and consider the options.
Exactly
if you can get (just plucking names out of the air here) James Shields, or Stephen Drew, or Hanley Ramirez, in return for Colby, maybe you make that trade. If it’s a case of getting half a year of an ace pitcher or something, you absolutely don’t.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 12, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
If it’s a case of getting half a year of an ace pitcher or something, you absolutely don’t.
I doubt there is a single poster on this blog that wouldn’t agree with that.
Rasmus for Shields
Holy Hell Yes.
I think it was in the main thread, but Shield’s contract according to Cot’s:
11:$4.25M
12:$7M club option ($2M buyout)
13:$9M club option ($1.5M buyout)
14:$12M club option ($1M buyout)
seems pretty palatable to me.
my main point was never that Jay is better...
It’s that Jay is good enough to replace Colby at a reasonable level and add the value of whatever we get in return for Rasmus and all together I think we would have a better team. Shumaker would unfortunately have to be the back up CF which i’m not too crazy of but given Jay’s ability to hit lefty’s he would be in the lineup more than Rasmus would normally be so Shumaker wouldn’t be needed that much.
So we add Shields
and we drop Chris Carpenter in 2012
How again are we gaining WAR the next two years?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Shields > Carp & cheaper (by $8m in 2012, or slightly less if we restructure Carp's deal somehow)
Jay maybe a 2 WAR downgrade from Colby. I can see it.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 13, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
See, this doesn't work though:
- You add James Shields, you subtract both Rasmus this year, and Chris Carpenter the next two years. Shields makes it impossible to afford Carpenter. The Rays also have Desmond Jennings, who could man CF for them for cheaper than Rasmus the next 6 seasons. Not to mention: The track record of trading for Rays starting pitchers is pretty fucking awful.
- Stephen Drew: The Diamondbacks have Chris Young signed through 2014 — they would have no interest in Colby Rasmus
- Hanley Ramirez: You subtract Rasmus this year, and Pujols the next 2 years (and the next 5-6 after that too). You can’t afford Ramirez and Pujols unless payroll is going to $140M (which is including arb increases for all the players due them over the next couple of seasons)
I would love to have any of those players. I think the Shields deal would make some sense for our club. However, we have two stud pitching prospects in the minors and Lance Lynn as well as Garcia, a returning Wainwright, el al. We have Jon Jay to replace Rasmus. If he gets injured or doesn’t perform, we have nobody to replace him from within, and all of these deals have us taking on more payroll, which would make filling that position next to impossible on the free agent market.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
3. I have no interest in re-signing Pujols for the amount he was presumably asking for last off-season.
1. don’t see why we need Carp if we have Shields. Waino, Jaime, Shields, Lohse, Westy, then Lynn & Miller next year, and Shields is cheaper than Carp.
2. That’s probably true.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 13, 2011 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I know we don't need Carp if we have Shields
but he’s been a 4 WAR starter the past few years, and I would guess that is about what Shields would give us. So it’s really a push. We get $2M we can spend elsewhere on the club, but would more than likely just go to paying arbitration raises or paying part of the raise due to Wainwright.
We’re still giving up a significant piece to get back something that we pretty much already have, although cheaper.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Start naming players then
It’s easy to make that argument. Then you start looking at the particulars of what you’re talking about…and you find there are very few teams that will deal cost controlled talent for other cost controlled talent, specifically talent that would help this current Cardinal club.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I agree with this,
however, what 3 WAR SS with 3 cost controlled years left would be available in a straight up swap? Answer, not many, if any at all.
What 3 WAR pitcher would be available in a straight up swap? I can’t think of many.
That’s the problem here:
- We’re either giving up Rasmus and other pieces to get back similar or better value that helps our current club,
- We’re giving up Rasmus at his buy low point for marginal upgrades at other positions.
- We’re giving up Rasmus for a couple of B prospects in the future.
Honestly? None of those appeal to me at all.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Not sure of your point exactly.....
So let me say this:
We have what, the second best offense in the NL so far this season? And we’ve done that with AP, Holliday, and Freese all missing considerable time, and/or slumping? And probably the only player that is having an “unsustainable” season is Berkman? Well, we’ve also done that with Raz having a pretty average year too. So what if we can upgrade SS or 2B? Or what if we can bring in a legit 2/3 SP? I don’t doubt that in the long run Colby will be a considerably better player than Jay. Probably. What I do have doubts about is whether that will be the case over the next 2-3 seasons. It might. It might not. I do know that Jay has been the better player this season. And it wouldn’t surprise me if Jay put up similar seasons to Colby over the next few seasons.
Erm.
Career WAR: Rasmus 8.6, Jay 2.7
Jay hasn’t been better than Rasmus. His line this year is nearly identical to Rasmus except with less walks and better luck on balls in play.
http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz
by hazel on Jul 12, 2011 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I want to see honest proposals for this then...
So what if we can upgrade SS or 2B? Or what if we can bring in a legit 2/3 SP?
Give me examples of trades that make his happen. Keep in mind the constraints:
- You actually have to upgrade the team, which means acquiring a player worth at least 1.5 marginal WAR, which is how much more Colby is projected to be worth in comparison to Jay.
- You have a payroll constraint of $120M, which is about where payroll will be in 2012 if we exercise Carp’s option and give arb raises that are due.
- The trade has to actually make sense for the team doing it. i.e. Arizona isn’t going to trade for Colby Rasmus because they have a CF signed through 2014 already and have Justin Upton and Gerardo Parra in the corners. They have no need to deal for an outfielder.
It’s easy to say “Let’s just deal Rasmus for a middle infielder or starting pitcher”. It’s a lot harder to come up with proposals that actually fit this phrase.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Shit...
The second bullet point should also assume that we’re paying Pujols $28M per season starting in 2012.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
This is the elephant in the room that no one mentions
If you make any trade this year involving anyone, the return is going to be based on your banking on whether he resigns or not.
Which is why I set the bar at $28M
If the’s offered that AAV, he will be back next year.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
If you assume Albert will be back,
then given your other constraints I agree – I think it would be extremely difficult to trade Rasmus for an upgrade at SS/2B/SP and maintain the same/improve the total WAR.
If you assume not… well, then I think there are trades that can be made that include Rasmus that can still benefit you.
Basically, I don’t envy Mo at this trade deadline.
I'm not good at this point.....
As I don’t have the time to follow other teams as much as I used to, and I don’t have time to do the research.
BUT…..I’ve seen a few options thrown out to know it’s possible. It seems like there are a couple of teams that have wanted Colby for a few years now. I’m sure one of them “might” overpay a bit. And for the record, I’d certainly never “sell low” on Colby. If an opposing team doesn’t want to trade for Colby based on his upside, I don’t move him.
TB has some good, young pitching that might be available. I haven’t seen the names thrown about for MI, but surely there are some teams that have MI’s that would help us out.
And really, we don’t have to limit to just MI. A really good 3B would help. Or a RF, assuming Berkman isn’t back next year. I know it isn’t easy, but really, LF and catcher are the only positions we KNOW we have locked up for next year.
Again, it's easy to make a vague assertion and not back it up with data.
It’s a whole different process to actually put together a trade with another team.
I think what you will find is exactly what you’d describe here:
I’d certainly never "sell low" on Colby. If an opposing team doesn’t want to trade for Colby based on his upside, I don’t move him.
I think you’re going to find that nobody is going to “overpay” for him at this point. They certainly aren’t going to give up a 2-3 WAR major league player for him at any of the positions that would help us. So all this trade talk is really just a bunch of Colby-haters wanting to move him because they don’t think he hustles enough.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Just curious
In your opinion, when is enough enough when it comes to Colby? What if he’s still not putting it all together next year? Or the year after? When his cost-controlled years are over?
I understand the stats, and that in the grand scheme of a full season, he adds value to the team, but eventually you want a player to be able to produce somewhat consistently. I mean, that’s what it takes to make a career out of this. Those who aren’t able to get the job done on a fairly consistent basis don’t end up sticking around.
For the sake of argument
Let’s assume the Rasmus is a 3.7 WAR center fielder. He was worth 4.3 WAR last year and is on pace to be worth about 3.2 WAR this season, so that’s a reasonable assumption of his true talent level. I actually think it’s higher than this, but I’m just using historical data here to make a point.
Let’s also assume that he never gets any better. That he’s just a 3.7 WAR center fielder for the rest of his arbitration years.
Here’s a list players who have played at more than 400 of their innings in CF in a given year since 2009, Colby’s rookie season. How many true talent 3.7 WAR center fielders are there in all of baseball?
Answer? Not very fucking many.
Sure, you’re going to have some players who have a great season once and a while (Nyjer Morgan, Ryan Sweeney, Marlon Byrd) but aren’t going to repeat that season over and over again for 3-4-5 seasons in a row.
So, currently, we’re talking about these guys: Matt Kemp, Micheal Bourn, Shane Victorino, Curtis Granderson, Chris Young, Andrew McCutchen, Denard Span, Colby Rasmus, and I’m going to include Grady Sizemore here as well.
That’s it. That’s the list. Barely more than you can count on one hand. Roughly 2/3 of the teams in MLB don’t have a 3 WAR CF. We do. And we have a faction of fans that just want to trade his ass because Jon Jay hustles and “goes all out” and Colby’s a little aloof and doesn’t show emotion.
Am I getting across the point of how ridiculous this is? He doesn’t need to hit his ceiling, or even approach it, to be a valuable player. He already is a valuable player. Could he turn out to be a much more valuable player? He might, but wouldn’t you rather hold onto a valuable player who’s only 24 years old and has demonstrated the tools to be a .380 OBP and .500 slugger for months at a time and hope that he turns into a very valuable player, perennial All-Star than to trade him away because he doesn’t “care enough”?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
by fourstick on Jul 13, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I understand where you're coming from
and I understand your frustration with “that faction of fans” on this particular topic. To be quite honest, I agree with you for the most part (though I believe there are quite a many other unknown-at-this-point-factors that could come into play). However you didn’t really answer the question. Unless I’m to infer that your answer to the question is “It’s never enough.”
Yes, I would agree that he is already a valuable player, with the definite potential and tools at his disposal to become a very valuable player. But I would think that a prospect that was as highly touted as he was, that you would want him to progress towards his ceiling to a degree, otherwise, you’re not really getting the return on your investment that you were seeking when you initially drafted him.
Hence the question – when would you decide that he’s not going to reach the heights you initially expected, and would you decide to turn around and try to obtain the most value you could? Or is what he’s shown to this point good enough and you feel that the value has already been obtained with what’s been accomplished to this point.
I’m getting the feeling that your answer is the latter, which is perfectly fine. Like I said, I was just curious.
I answered this, actually:
I’d say spending a top 50 pick on a player who is a 3 WAR center fielder is more than enough for a return on my investment. We’ve spent top 50 picks on Chris Lambert and Pete Kozma!
Hence the question – when would you decide that he’s not going to reach the heights you initially expected, and would you decide to turn around and try to obtain the most value you could?
When he becomes a free agent. At his rate, Rasmus is at least a type B. If he has a couple of breakout years, he becomes a type A. At that point, we can recoup at least one if not two top 50 picks for him when he leaves to go somewhere else (assuming that the compensation rules don’t change and they very well might).
I’m perfectly fine with him being a 3 WAR player for a few more years and then leaving in free agency. Why would I trade away a 3 WAR CF when there are only 8-10 in the entire game?
You seem to have this notion that if we don’t trade him now, and he turns in another 3 WAR season and is getting paid more that we can’t get anything of value back for him or that his value is somewhat diminished. I just don’t buy that logic at all. You also seem to think that we will get more for him right now than we could get in July of 2013. That’s probably true. But we would be giving up two more years of a 3 WAR CF, of which there are only 8-10 in all of baseball. If we had another top CF prospect coming up, I might be inclined to agree with you. But we don’t, and Jay is not a 3 WAR CF playing every day, I think we all realize that.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Fair enough
Why don’t you buy this logic, though?
You seem to have this notion that if we don’t trade him now, and he turns in another 3 WAR season and is getting paid more that we can’t get anything of value back for him or that his value is somewhat diminished.
He’d have one year less of being cost controlled at that point, and if one were to decide it was time to cut ties with him, then yes, his value would be more diminished than this time a year previous. I suppose the sticking point is what you mean by “he turns in another 3 WAR season” – meaning, at the end of this year he’s at 3 WAR, or at the end of this year, his WAR, when added to his previous years, averages out to 3? Assuming that it’s the latter (average of 3), if his WAR next year is keeping him at that same average (for argument’s sake, let’s say he’s turning in a 2.8 WAR), then yes, I would say his value would have diminished a little.
but eventually you want a player to be able to produce somewhat consistently
I don’t care about consistency. Honest question – why is a consistent player better than a streaky one?
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 13, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Consistency is in the eye of the beholder (i.e. you decide what portion of time to frame as consistent):
Rasmus has been worth 2.8, 4.3, and 1.6 WAR in his 2 1/2 seasons so far. That’s what I would call a consistently 3 WAR player. Now, does he slump occasionally? Yes. He also hits ..380/.460/.700 for a month at a time too.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
has he ever hit .380/.460/.700 for a month?
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 13, 2011 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
April 2010
.323/.463/.708/1.171
I was a little off on the batting average.
But that’s the guy everyone seems to want to trade. Seems ludicrous to me.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I think this is where we disagree
taking 2.8, 4.3, and 1.6 and averaging it to a 3 WAR player is not what I would define as being consistent. I would call him, on average, a 3 WAR player.
Whom would you rather have?
All things being equal to Colby in terms of age, potential, tools, and an average of 3 WAR:
2.8, 4.3, and 1.6 WAR in 2 and a half seasons
or
2.8, 3.1, and 3.3 WAR in 2 and a half seasons
I would argue that you would want the 2nd player because he’s shown to be more consistent.
considering the bottom one is on his way to either a 5.6, 6.2, or 6.6 WAR season
I’d take him.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
Considering that the second guy is
Andrew McCutchen, I’d probably take him in an even swap.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I don't think the Cardinals trading Rasmus would mean they would sell low on him
Cardinals have to decided what value they believe Rasmus has and then not accept anything lower than that. I believe there would be several GMs who would be willing to ignore two months of rasmus’s career when deciding what they want to give up.
Grit != flat out sucking.
I don't disagree
But those GM’s are generally going to want to deal potential future WAR for present WAR, something that doesn’t fit the constraints of the problem that everyone in the “trade Rasmus” camp seems to want.
Nobody wants to deal him for prospects. The names I’m hearing bandied about are Shields, Hanley, etc. — guys who are premium commodities on the trade market themselves playing for teams that would more likely deal them for lots and lots of prospects and players they don’t have to pay more than the minimum to the next 5 seasons than players like Rasmus.
I just don’t think he’s a good candidate to trade and help THIS club immediately with what he brings back.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I believe if we do trade him this year it would be something like the ludwick trade
Where we are trading to a team that needs outfield help, and they have an excess of pitching/middle infield. Or a we get a third team involve to give the prospects.
Grit != flat out sucking.
San Diego is thinking the same thing right about now...
I’m not in the trade rasmus camp.
Mainly because; like you; I feel that in the long run we’ll come out on the downside of the deal. But I can deferentially see how we could trade Rasmus and be better off this year. And if it pushes us deep into the play-offs and possibly WS, management might see it making fiscal sense as well.
Grit != flat out sucking.
this is my position too.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 13, 2011 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
isn't Freese one of the better third basemen in the NL?
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 13, 2011 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Technically, yes.
But it’s heavily and unsustainably supported by an exorbitant amount of luck. He’s got a .414 BABIP last I checked.
If that’s even .350, I think he may be below average offensively and just might be 2.0 WAR if his defense is above average.
"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 13, 2011 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions
well, I certainly would not want an upgrade there when you could upgrade the middle infield
FIRE TONY RASMUS
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 14, 2011 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh I agree.
Plus I’d like to see what David can do with a full season.
"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 14, 2011 2:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Freese's wOBARs so far in MLB:
2009: .319
2010: .332
2011: .351
I find it hard to believe he’s not, at the very least, an average hitter, and probably a tick or two above that. He’s trending in the right direction, too (although I doubt he’s got much more projection as he’s about 28 now I think).
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 14, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
and he seems to be a plus at defense as well
not elite level, but not average
FIRE TONY RASMUS
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 14, 2011 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I do know that Jay has been the better player this season.
I think this is you valuing certain things more than others. By actual run creation/prevention they’ve been about equal, and that’s with Jay outperforming any reasonable projection for him and Colby underperforming all reasonable projections for him.
So you solution is to trade the underperforming guy, who’s had some bad luck, and keep the overperforming guy, who’s had some good luck. Even though the underperforming guy was a FOUR WAR PLAYER just one year ago, is younger, and has demonstrated that he’s more talented? Why is this even a solution that should be considered?
I’d rather fire Tony LaRussa and replace him with a monkey from the St. Louis Zoo (providing we retain Dave Duncan of course) than trade Colby Rasmus at this point.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Except...
He’s not a .350+ wOBA player.
He was last year. But he also had a Jon Jay esque BABIP of .354.
If he is unlucky this year, then he was extremely lucky last year.
Beyond that, if you look at the comparison between his BA and BABIP, there is always a huge discrepancy. He needed a BABIP of .354 to hit .276. His great year in the minors, he only hit .275 (off a .300 BABIP)
By comparison to Jay, who had a .350 BABIP in 2010, and hit .300, and is doing the same this year.
While batting average doesn’t mean much in the game itself, it does in St. Louis. People hated on Rasmus last year to the point where he requested a trade. He’s not going to have many years like last (unless he gets lucky).
It’s really bad for him now (pretty much every day for the last month BernieM has taken a shot at him, and everyone else in the St. Louis media follows along), just imagine how it’s going to be the rest of the year. And he’s never going to hit for a high average, so he’s never going to be loved (see last year)
Not trading him would be cruel for everyone involved. Sure, maybe on paper he’s better, but even as a Rasmus supporter, I get sick and tired of constantly having to defend him. It’s Ray Lankford all over again.
i dont think fans hated rasmus that much last year...
until after the media let out the whole trade request thing. So may have, but the wagon was much smaller then.
Grit != flat out sucking.
IMO
Colby’s worth depends on what day you decide to trade or sell him.
Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983
i def agree..
but right now Colby’s main worth is his ceiling and how could he could be given its only his 3rd year. Teams wont trade him necessarily for how great he is now, because he’s not, but they would believe that he will turn into a great player. So if he continues this mediocre streak or even gets slightly better, his value won’t change that much people teams will start thinking that maybe he will never make that jump to stardom. I honestly don’t think that he will be average and I do think eventually he will turn it on, but I really don’t see him playing hard enough and when I see Jon Jay giving that kind of effort it makes me like him more. Also, it would allow Craig to get back in as the 4th OF when he gets healthy.
Colby and Theriot for Hanley anyone?
What worreis me about Sheilds is that this might be his only good year considering he’s 29 already. Of course he could piggy back off this for another 4 years or so but if not and he turns out to be the next Matt Garza then we would be screwed. I think tampa knows they would be selling him at his peak . I rather get someone thats has produced over a number of years if we were to move one of our biggest trade chips
I honestly don’t think that he will be average and I do think eventually he will turn it on, but I really don’t see him playing hard enough and when I see Jon Jay giving that kind of effort it makes me like him more
Argh. Can you please just stop? Think of the children.
http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz
that's stlpd-esque.
and one of the main “arguments” used by jay-lovers/colby-haters. it’s disgusting.
miller for miles!
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 12, 2011 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
i don't subscribe to it
but i don’t think it’s absurd either. We all want players we like to root for, right?
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 13, 2011 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
What you think is not 100% effort is more than likely simply a momentary lapse
Or a brainfart if you will. Honestly, this 100% effort pisses me so much because I’m not sure how much it even fucking matters. Pujols sure doesn’t give 100%. And I could really care less about it.
Anyway, you have no proof. Your proof is all anecdotal and of course my favorite “I’m not the only one that thinks this” is another piece of “evidence” I hear.
Literally there is no proof that he doesn’t give 100% effort because it’s likely false.
"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 12, 2011 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions
So you like Jay more, which is fine
But we’re not talking about which players you want to go and start a softball team with, we’re talking about which players are more effective. Jon Jay, with a fair amount of BABIP luck, is only slightly better than Rasmus, who has been hitting a high number of line drives (20% in June). So Rasmus doesn’t “play hard enough” but will probably have better numbers than Jay in a month or so, so why does the effort factor even matter? And besides, what evidence do you have that Rasmus doesn’t play hard? Do you have quotes from teammates decrying his effort? The manager? The general manager? Or do you just go off of your subjective impression and whether you like Rasmus or Jay better? Sure he makes mental derps. Every player in the history of baseball has done that. Albert runs the team out of innings at least once a month. Holliday flat out drops balls in the outfield. Skip can’t hit (not that that’s mental but it’s still a major concern). Theriot acts like the ball is made of butter. Berkman chases pitches at times. Those are almost all mental mistakes. It’s not an excuse for them, but it happens, and it’s not a legitimate reason to unload such a talented player who is a whopping 24.
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 12, 2011 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions
The thing is though...
Rasmus is just as much luck dependent as Jay is.
Last year he did great, but his BABIP was even higher than Jay.
This year, his BABIP is a more reasonable .291. If he reverts to a more reasonable .300 or so, he’s still going to only have a wOBA of .335-.340 or so. And that is probably closer to his true talent level.
Jay I think can sustain a higher BABIP than Colby can. At least he has in most of his career, while Colby hasn’t. Don’t ask me why, Jay looks terrible at the plate, and Colby looks good (most of the time). But some people are just like that.
So I think it’s quite likely he’ll be abound a .330-.340 wOBA by the end of the year.
Is he worse than Colby? Yes, but it’s not as steep a drop as people are making it out to be. And when you factor in the non stat stuff, I think Colby needs to go, for his own good. Why force a player to play in an environment where he is so hated, apparently by the management, fans, and media? With only a handful of people sticking up for him? Is that fair for anyone?
If we trade him and he blossoms into a 5 WAR player the next three seasons
I think you should pay for hazel and I to take out a billboard on Kings Highway with Rasmus’ picture on it and the words “The best fans in baseball ran this superstar out of town”.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Why?
Do you not think it’s reasonable that he could have stayed in STL, and NEVER become a 5 WAR player? I certainly do. Some guys fit in better on certain teams. Locker room chemistry. Chemistry with the coaching staff. Expectations. Role. The list goes on and on.
I think Colby would implode if he played in a media market like New York. Send him to the Nationals, or hometown Atlanta, or the Pirates, and he “may” excel. I’m not saying this is the case for ALL players, but Colby seems susceptible to the mental side of the game. Not everybody can be mentally tough. Sometimes, the game/fans/situation eats players up.
Yes
I certainly do think that’s possible. And a 3 WAR centerfielder that never makes more than $7M per season for 6 full years is an INCREDIBLY VALUABLE PLAYER.
So maybe, MAYBE you should be making the argument that people should stop ripping the kid to shreds all the time and just let him play the fucking game, rather then making the case that the organization “should move him for his own good” — which is basically blaming the kid for having mental problems.
Regardless, it’s obvious that you simply want to blame Rasmus for all his struggles while absolving those who rip him for not being a “good player” when he’s actually been a very good player for going on 18 months now. It’s not his fault the people don’t appreciate his play because he’s a left handed center fielder with power that isn’t Jim Edmonds.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Rasmus may very well make
$3+ million next year, $7+ million after that. We are running out of “cheap” years for him.
Grit != flat out sucking.
I don't think so
Remember, Elias goes off of basic counting stats, not WAR and wOBA. By those measures he looks like a very average ballplayer, which is why so many people are fucking pissed that he’s not throwing up ridiculous stats.
He could get $3M, but I’m guessing that it will be settled for less. I doubt he more than doubles that amount in the second arbitration year unless he has a huge breakout season.
Regardless, he’s probably going to give us 3 WAR per season if he plays 140 games, and we’re never going to have to pay him more than 2.5 WAR player. That’s a pretty good benefit if you ask me.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I agree with this.
Rasmus will almost undoubtedly be undervalued in arbitration.
http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz
This is the most nonsense post I've seen on this subject to date.
Are you secretly Jeff Passan?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
listen bud,
before you start trying to insult people as you have before, realize that this is a cardinals blog. Secondly, effort translates to other aspects as well, like worth ethic for one. Do you honestly think Colby works and tries as hard at the game of baseball than Jon Jay. I honestly don’t think he does because he has that g-d given talent. Eventually that won’t take him as far at it can and effort and practice and those extra hours will differentiate between an average player and an above average player.
Playing a division 1 sport I can tell you that every person on my team was extremely taleneted, but what separated us was who tried harder and who just kinda “made it through” practice. After speaking to professional athletes that have made to the NBA and US Soccer Team the main thing they tell me is those guys are the ones that live and breath their respective sport. Not giving a shit and not having that desire will prevent someone from reaching their full potential. So yes I much rather have someone who actually gives a shitt if he makes a catch rather then someone who just rolls his stupid eyes after screwing up a routine single to center field.
And he finally reveals what he really thinks of Rasmus
Completely anecdotal, likely false, and full of biased opinion. I’ll expect this opinion on twitter or facebook but not VEB. Again, you’ve failed with the whole “proof” part of this thing because there is none.
No though we should take you at your word that Rasmus doesn’t give as much effort as Jay and gives up on flyballs. Yep.
"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 13, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Guys in the NBA and the US soccer team can vouche for Colby Rasmus's laziness?
I’ll be damned.
"I kinda like the Wong" -Aranathor
by Alxfritz on Jul 13, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
So fourstick can't insult you
But you can write this?
So yes I much rather have someone who actually gives a shitt if he makes a catch rather then someone who just rolls his stupid eyes after screwing up a routine single to center field.
What quote do you have from a member of the Cardinals organization that provides some evidence that Rasmus doesn’t care? Or do you just have your subjective opinion?
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 13, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Never mind - You're not Jeff Passan, you're some hybrid of Al Hrabosky and Rob Dibble.
Playing a division 1 sport I can tell you that every person on my team was extremely taleneted, but what separated us was who tried harder and who just kinda "made it through" practice.
So since you played (and you’re assuming I didn’t, which is a very big assumption on your part…but considering what else is assumed in the rest of this post this seems like minor mistake) you know better than the rest of us that your subjective opinion of a player that you’ve never seen in the clubhouse, never watched practice, never spoken to personally, and likely only watched on TV or from 3000 feet away doesn’t work hard? For the record, this is the same bullshit I’ve heard for years about players who don’t show much emotion. You don’t have to be a screaming, cursing madman in order to play baseball at a high level. Stan Musial wasn’t one of those guys, neither was Bob Gibson or Scott Rolen for that matter. But I bet you don’t question their work ethic.
I honestly think that Colby works as hard as Jon Jay. I don’t see any motive for what he WOULDN’T be working as hard as Jon Jay. I don’t know where you get the idea that he doesn’t work as hard as Jon Jay. It seems to me that you hate his face, hair, expressions, and just decided that you don’t like Colby Rasmus, so why not denigrate him as a lazy half wit who can’t handle the spotlight! And if anyone disagrees…well “I played and you didn’t, so LISTEN TO ME. I know what I’m talking about.”
If you’re going to lob hand grenades about the kid I want specific examples of how his work ethic is so much poorer than other players. Specific. Examples. Not your biased subjective opinion.
Furthermore, it really doesn’t matter. If he can work half as hard at baseball as Jon Jay and still be as valuable as Jon Jay, I WANT THE GUY WHO’S GOING HALF ASS. Why? Because I can coach the kid to work harder. I can’t coach Jon Jay to have baseball abilities that he doesn’t have.
David Duval is probably the hardest worker on the PGA Tour. John Daly is probably the least hardest worker on the PGA Tour. Yet both have won major tournaments. Daly is clearly the most talented of the two — he can just show up, bomb it out there 300 yards with a 2 iron and win the PGA Championship without even so much as a practice round on the course. Duval works and works and works and works and yet he can’t consistently play at a high level. Now, would it be easier to teach David Duval to hit it 300 yards with a 2 iron or would it be easier to coach John Daly to stop drinking, practice a little more, and take care of himself? Neither are easy, but you have to admit that at least the latter is possible. The former isn’t — Duval simply doesn’t have the ability to hit it that far.
The John Daly’s of the world piss the rest of us hackers off. You say to yourself: “How can a guy with such amazing natural ability squander it! If that was me I’d work my ass of 8 hours a day to be the best player I can be!” Meanwhile the Duval’s of the world make us feel good: “See, Little Tony, if you work really hard and do things right, you too can win a major PGA Tournament and beat Tiger Woods in a skins match on television.”
So, I understand your frustration. But it’s not based on reality. In reality, you want the most talented players. Emotionally, you want the hardest workers and the most relatable people. When they happen in the form of Ozzie or Stan or Albert that’s a fantastic thing. But a team full of Joe McEwing’s and Bo Hart’s aren’t going to win a lot of game. We have to understand that while we may not like the JD Drew’s of the world, they’re still very talented and very valuable players and can help our team win games.
Talent is far more important than work ethic. If you don’t have talent, it’s very hard to succeed. They are not mutually exclusive — there have been very talented players not make it because of terrible work ethic. But virtually nobody who is lacking in the talent department ever sees the big leagues, no matter how hard they work. They are us. The guys who were pretty good but not great at the high school level and enjoy watching the best in the game do things that we couldn’t.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
by fourstick on Jul 13, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I honestly think that Colby works as hard as Jon Jay. I don’t see any motive for what he WOULDN’T be working as hard as Jon Jay.
Because some people just don’t work as hard as others? That is obvious in ALL aspects of life, why would baseball be any different? Colby knows he can coast through his MLB career, get by on physical abilities alone, and make a pretty good chunk of change. He doesn’t HAVE to work hard to be decent. Maybe that is enough for him.
Colby knows he can coast through his MLB career, get by on physical abilities alone, and make a pretty good chunk of change.
How do you know that? I’m sure you believe it, but how do you know it?
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 13, 2011 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
But do you KNOW HE DOESN'T WORK HARD?
That is the question here. And none of you polyanna’s have done anything to prove it.
It’s your opinion, and not an opinion that has much of any evidence to support it.
So, either prove to me that someone in the organization thinks he’s lazy or stop fucking saying it.
I get tired of people who think that their subjective opinion is good enough. It’s not.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
For instance
I KNOW that John Daly doesn’t work hard. How do I know? Because anyone that’s ever known the guy has pretty much stated it unequivocally.
I KNOW that David Duval works really hard at his golf game. How do I know? There have been multiple golf articles written on Duval and his scientific approach to practice, about how he works 5-6 hours every day on improving his game. Most players on the Tour would also support this view.
You have no fucking clue how hard Colby Rasmus works. He could be in the lower cage at Busch working with his dad until 3 AM every fucking night and you wouldn’t know. Yet you claim that he’s not a hard worker. Where is your evidence of this? You have none. SO JUST STOP SAYING IT. It pissed me off that we even have to have this discussion on a sports blog that’s based almost entirely around factual statistical analysis of the game.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
by fourstick on Jul 13, 2011 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
I've never heard TLR complain about his work ethic
Mental game, yes. I’ve never heard him say he didn’t try or care.
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 13, 2011 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions
people that are so interested in how hard a player works and what he does off the field should become journalists or sports analysts
but instead they just make assumptions
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 13, 2011 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Most journos and analysts
do nothing but make assumptions anyway. Analysts are usually the worst because they always have rose colored glasses about how “the game was better when they played it”. Some of them don’t (I think Orel Hershiser is actually really good about being objective, although ESPN is doing it’s best to ruin that) but a great many do think this way.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Well that's part if it too
He is taking his break and working hard with his dad. And because his dad can be a bit of a overbearing jackass from time to time, this has turned into a negative character defect for the younger Rasmus too.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 13, 2011 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I honestly think that Colby works as hard as Jon Jay.
So you can make that comment above, with ZERO factual evidence, and then you rip me apart for SUGGESTING the opposite might be true?
Stop being a dick. If you want to talk baseball, talk baseball. Not everybody has to agree with your OPINION. And yes, it’s an opinion. It isn’t a fact. Very little of what you are talking about is factual. But at this point, I’m not even talking baseball with you, I’m talking about your verbal diarreah above. Show respect, and stop being a pompous ass.
I'm the dick?
I’m not stating my opinion as fact. I’m not even asking you to agree with me.
I’m simply stating that if you’re going to call a guy lazy, you BETTER HAVE SOME PROOF THAT HE IS. Because if you don’t, you’re the dick.
Instead of providing that, you go about writing ad hominem attacks against me. If he’s lazy, prove it. Otherwise, I think it best that you don’t make baseless accusations about other people and judge them prematurely.
That is all.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Where did I say Colby was, for a fact, lazy?
At MOST, I suggested he MIGHT be. Nothing more, nothing less.
So this isn't you calling him lazy:
Colby knows he can coast through his MLB career, get by on physical abilities alone, and make a pretty good chunk of change. He doesn’t HAVE to work hard to be decent. Maybe that is enough for him.
Funny — if you made that statement about me I would certainly imply that you think I’m lazy.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
LOL
I’m done here. Now you are taking quotes out of context, and trying to make them mean what you KNOW they didn’t mean when I typed them.
You KNOW that is in response to the question about why a MLB (or Colby) WOULD be lazy. Not why he IS lazy, why he COULD be. But you know that. You went back and read what I said, realized I was right (never made a factual stmt saying Colby was lazy), and decided to spin.
Bravo.
And stop asking me to prove something.....
That a) cannot really be proven at all, and b) certainly cannot be proven by US, at THIS time. I can’t prove he doesn’t work hard. You can’t prove he does. Period. You like factual statements, that is as factual as it gets.
I didn't base my entire
argument about why I want to keep Colby Rasmus around the fact that he’s a hard worker. I simply think that he is, but if he’s not a hard worker and still imore valuable than 2/3 of the guys that play the same position across the entire league, then that’s still a guy I want on my team.
Stop trying to change this into a pissing contest. You made an accusation that you can’t possibly back up and you just admitted it. Now you’re trying to argue that because I can’t prove the opposite of your argument that I’m making the same mistake?
Sorry, that’s a false equivalence.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Stop being a tool......
and actually read the words I am typing.
I NEVER called Colby lazy. Never made that statement. I argued that he MIGHT be lazy. Hell if I know for sure. He might be. He might not be. I said he MIGHT be in response to your post, or a post, asking why he would be. I simply said some people are lazier then others. That is a fact.
And if you will stop raging for a minute and read my actual opinion, you’d see that I’m not pushing for a Colby trade. Never said I was. Never said I’d trade him or shop him. All I said is that he is not untradeable, and he probably does have good trade value, slump or not. Several others agree, including yourself even, I think, that there might be a handful of deals out there that would make sense. That is all I’m saying, and all a lot of people are saying. Not that we’d ship him away like BR, just to get him out of the org.
I should not have called you a tool.
Sorry about that. I just don’t like having words put in my mouth.
This is the statement I'm going by:
Colby knows he can coast through his MLB career, get by on physical abilities alone, and make a pretty good chunk of change. He doesn’t HAVE to work hard to be decent. Maybe that is enough for him.
When you accuse someone of “coasting” and “getting by on…abilities alone”, that’s semantically calling them lazy. So just because you didn’t use the exact word doesn’t absolve you from implicitly stating it.
Sorry if I took that the wrong way, but I think you can see how that would happen.
I do think he has value — more value, in fact, then just about anything we could get in return for him.
I made the mistake of lumping you in with tonyy, and that’s my fault. I apologize for that.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Again.....
Context. That response was a hypothetical response to the question of why somebody, or a player, would ever be lazy. There are TONS of talented athletes that never sniff their potential, b/c they are in fact lazy. Obviously it’s a much smaller percentage of those guys that actually make it to MLB, but even then, there are players that don’t work as hard as others. Is that Colby? I have no idea. I don’t know what he does on a daily basis.
This has been my point all along:
I don’t know what he does on a daily basis.
So we probably shouldn’t speculate on it. Agreed?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Why?
We don’t have 1/3 of the information that TLR has on a daily basis, yet some of you question every move the man makes.
It’s a message board/blog. People want to talk about stuff. If we only talk about stuff we know we’re 100% sure about, it will be pretty boring.
Just b/c there is plenty of stuff we don’t know all the facts about, doesn’t mean we can’t form opinions. As long as they are discussed as that, opinions (and not facts), what harm is done? If it’s a discussion, or opinion, that you don’t wish to discuss, skip over it.
It's one thing to question a decision that is made
When we have evidence, usually statistical, to evaluate whether that decision was good or bad. Wondering why Franklin and Bautista were still on the roster as of June 1st wasn’t speculation — they had performed badly enough that it made little sense to keep them on the roster.
This is total and complete speculation based on the way the guy looks, the fact that he slumps occasionally, and the way that he doesn’t ever seem to be pissed off when bad things happen. It’s baseless judgment of the worst possible kind. I remember people defending Chris Duncan forever after he gave us about 6 months of great play and followed that up with 9 months of terrible play. People were literally upset when he got traded and he was hitting worse than Colby has in his entire career.
You have to admit that judging someone’s character traits when you’ve never met them is not only cynical but also prejudiced. Nothing positive can possibly come out of this conversation.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Just b/c there is plenty of stuff we don’t know all the facts about, doesn’t mean we can’t form opinions.
There’s so many things morally wrong with this statement that I can’t even begin to pick it apart.
Suffice to say, THIS VERY NOTION is what has brought journalistic integrity to an all time low.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Colby looks like a worker to me
he’s in shape. he’s been trying to dive for the ball lately since everyone can’t seem to figure out that he’s really fast and doesn’t need to dive. guess what? when he dives for the ball he gives up an extra base. this idea that he is lazy is just b.s.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 13, 2011 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions
You touch on something interesting there
I have a friend that is an assistant basketball coach at the college level. He talked to me quite a bit about this 5’6" guy they had. He works really hard, was fundamentally sound, and does all the right things. He also talked about some 6’10" stringbean they had for the post. My friend talks about how lost he looks one the court, can’t lift his weight, and doesn’t bust his ass like he should. My friend kinda gravitated towards the short kid, and not so much with the tall guy.
That was until he had a conversation with his head coach. His head coach told him that “he doesn’t care much for midgets”, and that a 5’6" guy needs to be a lights out shooter to see the court and he isn’t a lights out shooter. He told him he held him personally responsible for the development of the 6’10" guy because the 5’6" guy is going to be exactly what he is, but the 6’10" guy can get better. So he started gravitating towards the big guy then.
Not a strong correlation to this story, other than what the guy can do on the court/field is really what counts. I think Rasmus works. Perhaps there are issues with his approach, but this is the approach he has carried throughout, including through the Cardinals farm system.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 13, 2011 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
contradictory..
After speaking to professional athletes that have made to the NBA and US Soccer Team the main thing they tell me is those guys are the ones that live and breath their respective sport
Why would the MLB be any different than the NBA or US Soccer Team? By this logic, Colby lives and breathes the sport too.
Here is a link to my google+ profile.
We have gone through the looking glass.
Do you honestly think Colby works and tries as hard at the game of baseball than Jon Jay. I honestly don’t think he does because he has that g-d given talent. Eventually that won’t take him as far at it can and effort and practice and those extra hours will differentiate between an average player and an above average player.
Holy shit.
http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz
if there's any reason to trade him
it’s probably because of his dad and distractions. why not try to limit that? it ultimately depends with him. I think he can overcome the limitations and remain a Cardinal. only to kick much more ass than in the past. and that’s a lot.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 13, 2011 1:13 AM EDT reply actions
i think i could do
colby for james shields, but seeing jon jay out there everyday would be hard on my little heart
shields has age and contract on his side, rays need a bat and they have pitched prospects to replace Shields
this looks pretty good tho, Waino, Shields, Carp, Jaime, Loshe
"like those hip musicians with their complicated shoes!" - George Costanza
I think we're all liking Shields here
despite Rasmus’ popularity, I think if Mo got that deal done (even if it meant throwing in another middling prospect or two) I don’t think anyone could really complain.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 14, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Would something like Rasmus and Carpenter and Scumaker
For Buerlhe and Beckham? Maybe throw in Martinez. And yes I went there. lol
The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun
I do like the idea of getting rid of the schu
but Buerhle and Beckham? really?
FIRE TONY RASMUS
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 14, 2011 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Thats why I advocated throwing in Martinez
The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun
I don't want either of those guys
FIRE TONY RASMUS
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 14, 2011 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sure if serious....
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 14, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Succesful...........
The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun
i think people miss the point that
if you trade Colby for who knows what, then you have Jay everyday. The bench already isnt the greatest… Unless you think they get a Pitcher and a bat for him which is dreaming…
I’m personally not in favor of trading him at all, much less for a pitcher….I feel theres quite a drop off between Raz and Jay, so if say the pitcher u get pulls a mulder..then meh
ride it out..trade someone else for pitching.
This guys so good(Pujols) He should be illegal-Pirates announcers
I think the bench is fine.....
When healthy.
Punto. Craig. Cruz/Laird isn’t bad.
I’d probably prefer to add a veteran bat to the bench, but if the kids keep playing well, that may not be necessary.
No left handed bats on that bench
So Mark Hamilton is probably getting a spot if you move Jay into the starting lineup.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I think I'd be OK with that
we really need to decide if Hamilton has a bench role in MLB or release the guy. They need to get Adams into AAA this year.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 14, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Off season
I say if they deal Colby for a pitcher now look for lohse or westbrook to be delt n the off season. I,d say which ever one had the better season. Most likely lohse, I think he could get a descent return, a b-ish prospect, some sorta of middle infielder. I like the riot the hitter, but I hate Theriot the fielder. Would like to see him as a 2b next year, with skip off the team.
"Chuck Norris CAN divide by zero"
Except for the fact that,
Lohse and especially Westbroke are essentially untradeable.
http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz
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