Will the Cardinals have a regular closer by end of season?
Watching the bullpen tonight with Boggs and Motte throwing, makes one think of possible closers for the team. But it also brings thoughts of if there should be a certain person pitching in a certain inning. With mainly Franklin as closer, the Cardinals were getting in the low 40's in saves. This total dipped last season, and obviously this year was a disaster for him. Even the beard was gone, foreshadowing an early retirement of a once competitive player.
Bullpen drama is nothing new, however. It's a part of the game, in its somewhat questionable effect on a team. The main effect being in management, deciding when to pull the plug in a difficult situation. The Cards triumvirate of DeLarusliak went par for the course; handling the situation fairly overall, I suppose. If it had gone on any longer though, the mood would not be favorable, as a player takes up a roster spot for no discernible reason. The expulsion of Batista and Franklin is a sort of a feel-good bittersweet situation. Especially when considering last year's roster which was full of players that needed to be jettisoned.
A look into high leverage situations over the last 3 seasons for the Cardinals bullpen, one anchored by Franklin in the 9th, but with an everchanging supporting cast:
- 2008: 5.07 FIP | 4.57 xFIP | 5.14 tERA
- 2009: 3.59 FIP | 4.14 xFIP | 4.02 tERA
- 2010: 4.05 FIP | 3.81 xFIP | 3.81 tERA
- AVE over 3 seasons: 4.25 | 4.19 | 4.34
- Ryan Franklin '08: 4.56 xFIP | '09: 4.25 | '10: 4.11
- by FIP, Franklin was in decline the last two years
With Franklin as closer, the Cardinals do not appear to be overly cautious about who closes games. Fastforward to 2011, and does not show anything remotely close to last year's 4.11 xFIP. His 6.54 FIP and 6.02 xFIP in high leverage situations this season made every fan flinch when he entered the game (don't even look at the medium leverage numbers).
This season the Cardinals are towards the bottom of the league in relief appearances with high leverage situations. It seems that the Cardinals organization is opening its mind to not insistinng that their best bullpen pitcher is definitely the closer. Which made it odd that Franklin was the guy in past years. Maybe lesson learned? It's tough to tell when each year the make up of the bullpen continued to change around quite a bit. It seemed that Larussa preferred a veteran in the role, with a bullpen made up mostly of young converts such as Motte and Boggs, aging random LOOGY's (as usual), and more random run of the mill puppy kickers, Villones, and Denny's reference generators.
This year, with the continued success of Motte, Boggs, & Salas, and now Lance Lynn joining (or replacing McClellan's spot), it seems that the bullpen might be becoming something new and more grounded (hoping). It's a bullpen that doesn't make me quite as terrified, although I must say Tallet and Miller may need to go also. I'm thinking that Lance Lynn could be a bolster to a 'pen that just dfa'd 2 players in a relatively short time span. Without more rambling, here are the stats for Sauce, Boggsy, Salsa, and LL. (with FIP/xFIP)
- Jason Motte: 2.79/3.60
- Mitchell Boggs: 2.73/2.79
- Fernando Salas: 3.02/3.48 (very low BABIP against though, does not look sustainable at .237)
- Lance Lynn: 2.81/2.79
Boggs and Lynn are nearly identical at this point (admittedly Lynn's numbers could blow up at any time). And Motte is no slouch with a 2.81 FIP. With three to four solid relievers in the 'pen, it would be nice to maybe find one good LOOGY or make one more upgrade. Although, it's too early to tell what the new additions will do.
- In 2011 Jason Motte, according to fangraphs and sabermetric stats like FIP and xFIP, has been most valuable in medium leverage and lower leverage outcomes. A 3.88 FIP in high leverage is not too bad either.
- Boggs seems to be a bit better in high leverage situations, and is also good in medium leverage. he seems to be a bit to relaxed in low leverage. An added note, he's been very unlucky in high leverage, but his numbers are great with a 2.08 FIP. Looks to be small sample distortion
- Salas is best utilized in middle leverage or low. He doesn't have as good of stuff or rate stats, although he is quite reliable overall. His best ability looks to be that he doesn't get flustered by men on base.
- Newcomer Lance Lynn is a lot more difficult to predict, but he has handled pressure well in limited chances. His splits indicate he may be more effective as a reliever, but since he's already been converted from starter it's difficult to tell the difference. One thing I did notice is that when he gets ahead early in the count his K/9 looks very nice. I think he can up the speed on the fastball a bit higher even, now that he's a reliever.
For now it seems a little odd that the Cardinals will throw Lynn into higher leverage situations. It seems like a bit of a gamble, but they have been experimenting who might fit a role that no one is sure is that important any more. For now I'd be most comfortable with Boggs as closer, or if there haven't been any close games use him as a shut down guy. Motte is already that man, with more innings pitched. Although, I must say, TLR's usage of probably his two best relievers is seemingly random. Sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it makes none (sending down Boggs was especially confusing).
So sure, why not throw Lynn into the contention. I suppose there may be many opportunities for the bullpen to prove themselves under pressure. Without no clear ace for the starters, and some questionable defense, these 4 of bullpen will ride. Now which one is which.
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Not sure what's to discuss here...
we don’t currently have a “closer by committee” approach. Salas has probably taken 95% of the save opp’s since early May. I don’t see him losing the role unless he loses his grip. I think Boggs is better suited for the role, as he has the better overall arsenal. He won’t get another shot unless Salas falters or gets hurt. Motte is a little too volatile IMO, and Lynn has a starter’s repertoire. What about Sanchez? He’s more likely than Motte/Lynn I would think.
Jimmy Ballgame for 2011 RFer!!!
right now, i think Sanchez might have the more electric stuff
but he also has a tendency to flake at inopportune times.
Hopefully, he starts to mature into his confidence and can be a top end reliever. He has the stuff for it.
Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.
- John Wayne
I like Salas in the role, if we have a full-time closer
because he can get left-handers out. If we’re going to be inflexible enough to throw the same guy out in the 9th inning in close games, it really shouldn’t be any of the other guys because they all suck against lefties.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 1, 2011 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Salas's changeup is disgusting.
It’s down and away movement against lefties is terrific. I also think he does a better job of working ahead in the count and challenging hitters at this point in time.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I want a committee!!!
Motte is already three people
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 1, 2011 9:53 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
excellent
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by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 1, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Salas or committee
Salas seems to be getting the job done. Sanchez shows great promise, but I have to ad, IF and when he comes back. Is this about the youngest group in the league? And you guys say Tony doesn’t like young players.
Older than any three of you.
by Remember Kenny B on Jul 1, 2011 12:06 PM EDT reply actions
I think Salas is the guy.
That’s easy to say right now because he’s been effective. Before the season started I thought Motte would eventually emerge as the closer, and Franklin was obviously going to be handing the job over to somebody.
But Salas has been more than suitable, I see no reason to uproot him, but I also see no reason why he and Motte can’t share the job, as dictated by circumstance.
Something we haven’t seen much since Brad Thompson is the long relief man.
Maybe that’s by design or maybe it’s by circumstance, but I’d be tempted to see if Lynn is that guy when needed and alternate him with Boggs.
Of Sanchez, Miller and Tallet ……(listed in order of reliability), to me, they’ve all been lukewarm. We may see better things from at least one of them but Miller is probably not the one, I’d expect it to be Sanchez, but I need to see him more. I don’t know what to make of Tallet yet.
Looking at the whole basket full, I find Motte to be the most interesting, and Salas the most consistent.
Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983
I just don't think Salas can get the big outs
plus I’m not so sure he can continue that BABIP
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by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 1, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know
if he can get the big outs or not or if he can continue that BABIP, but I’d give him the ball in order to find out.
Who else CAN get the big outs? If we knew then it would be a no-brainer.
Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983
by Dave Pendleton on Jul 1, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
going by the high leverage situations I just wrote about in this fanpost
looks like Mitchell Boggs is the dude
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by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 1, 2011 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
splitting already tiny sample sizes into even tinier ones doesn't help you determine anything.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 1, 2011 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions
career 3.94/3.41 is not too shabby
plus he has passed the scout eye test or whatever. he’s pretty good I think
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by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 1, 2011 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, I agree, I like Boggs a lot
think he could actually end up being the best of our bullpen crowd. I was just making the point that the fact he’s done better in his high leverage appearances this year (which probably amounts to <10 IP) probably doesn’t mean much going forward.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 2, 2011 6:10 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah
and high leverage does not really mean closer
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 2, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
am I missing something
why are you comparing Sanchez with the LOOGYs? I didn’t really include him in the convo because he has hardly had any playing time, and he’s hurt now.
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by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 1, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm just looking at the whole lot of them.
Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983
by Dave Pendleton on Jul 1, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
and also...
I know he’s hurt, but I’m not just looking at today. I’m looking at what’s in the pen (hurt or not) and long term, and not necessarily looking at only a lefty as a closer.
Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983
by Dave Pendleton on Jul 1, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd pick Boggs or Lynn
I’d be fine with Motte too (but he’s probably better as a situational guy). closer by committee might be best approach though. I dunno. I do like these 4 relievers quite a bit, and hopefully the team can structure a reliable bullpen around them.
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by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 1, 2011 1:05 PM EDT reply actions
I think our bullpen's over-achieved a bit this year
I know that sounds crazy, given the number of meltdowns we’ve had, but I’d say all three of the main guys we have now (Motte, Boggs and Salas) have arguably had better results than their stuff and performance have merited, so I’d expect them all to fall away a bit as the year goes on. I’m just hoping we can either acquire a decent lefty or that Valdes or Miller can find some semblance of form, but that’s the thing that’s going to kill us as the season goes on.
I also worry our lack of a shutdown bullpen is going to be a problem if we make the playoffs – we’re likely to have to get through Milwaukee and/or Philly, Atlanta or San Francisco, and it’s perhaps no surprise that those teams have the four best pitching rotations in the NL (and all have a better bullpen than we do) so the games will be close. We’ll need to be able to hold 1 run leads against the heart of those teams’ lineups, and I have little confidence in our bullpen’s ability to do so.
I’m not advocating a trade for Bell, but picking up another decent RHRP if Sanchez is hurt (I’d inquire about Chad Qualls) and definitely a lefty specialist (Mike Gonzalez would be the guy who interests me) would go a long way to shoring up the rough edges of the pen.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 1, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I fine with Boggs and Motte's pitches
I think they do have good stuff. Salas is more of a finesse pitcher, which is also needed. I’ve liked Salas ever since they brought him up, but I just don’t view him as quite as remarkable as Boggs or Motte. I am probably overrating the two, but both have had some buzz since they were prospects and I am rooting for them to do well. Motte has been pretty impressive so far, as advertised (he has had some blow ups in some memorable situations, so I think that hurts his reputation a bit; on the other hand, I’ve seen him get through some pretty nerve wracking situations, and saved Franklin a few times). Boggs has great movement on his fastball, as well as practically a starter’s repertoire of other pitches. his BB/9 is best in the bullpen
I agree on your bullpen additions. as I mentioned, the bullpen outside of the 4 (more reasonably just 3) that I mentioned is pretty sketchy. I do share the fear of this bullpen becoming more like 2008; we need at least one of the two you mentioned.
and your right about the playoffs; our starters are not that amazing. the bullpen will be needed much more than last season. I think what might be best though is trying to trade for a good starter, and move McClellan to the ‘pen again. along with LL, KMC would help stabilize the bullpen. his 4.63 FIP and too low BABIP don’t exactly inspire confidence.
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by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 1, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't get the question.
Salas is the regular season closer right now. So I guess I’d say yes to that question.
"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker
I didn't know he was the official closer
but I guess, maybe not the best question
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by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 1, 2011 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess the main point is
will Salas be the closer throughout the season. I’m not all that sure.
does babip proves that karma exists?
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by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 1, 2011 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he keeps the job unless we trade for someone else
I don’t think TLR is going to trust the role to Motte again, and I think he’s made it reasonably clear he has a problem for one reason or another with giving Boggs too much late-inning responsibility. Sanchez was the only guy who might’ve got in that mix, but I’m not sure if he’s not done for the year now, shoulder injuries are worrying. Regardless, I think Salas has earnt a reasonably long leach and I think TLR probably recognises that.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 2, 2011 6:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah that's weird.
Motte blew it twice in two consecutive chances and 2 years later, he still won’t trust Motte with the role. Anybody see some flaws in this reasoning?
"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker
to be fair
Motte isn’t that great, and I still think he is vulnerable to lefties. I’m happier with Salas or Sanchez, long-term.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 4, 2011 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
With that said...
He does seem to have the ability to strike guys out, unlike Franklin. So it’s not all luck. But…
the luckier the better, in my book.
Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983
by Dave Pendleton on Jul 1, 2011 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
The luckier the worse actually.
The luckier they are, the more likely they will crash down to Earth (Ergo Franklin is a prime example of someone who was extremely lucky)
Although Salas hasn’t been incredibly lucky
"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker
I've know people
that have spent their entire life under a lucky star…dumb as a box of hammers but do very well due to just luck. but….none of the people I know are ballplayers.
I guess I’d rather be lucky than good…depending on how long my luck lasts.
Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983
by Dave Pendleton on Jul 6, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
His FIP is 2.97.
I know his BABIP is low, but FIP is a pretty good indicator of whether one’s ERA is lucky or not and by that measure, Salas has not been unlucky.
2.61 ERA with a 2.97 FIP is actually fairly standard.
"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker
I’m never wowed by Salas but I always feel comfy when he comes in. Even when Franklin was successful I always excpected him to get rocked. I hear rumblings about going after Heath Bell but I think that may cost us a lot. I’m wondering about talking to Tampa about Kyle Farnsworth. If he’s finally gotten control of his arm he could be very valuable for us. I’m not sure where we may find a good lefty
"I don't take no anesthetic. Did Lincoln ask for any girlie gas when they blowed his head off?"
I feel that Salas may be best utilized in the 8th as set up guy
but who knows, it’s TLR
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 5, 2011 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Salas has been better than Farnsworth this year.
Motte has been as good. Boggs is better. Sanchez has been as good. Lynn has been better. Farnsworth is unnecessary. He would be replacing Brandon Dickinson.
http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz
Motte-
Does anyone else think that Mottes arm slot has been dropping lately? I’m wondering if theyve been trying to get more movement on the fastball by tinkering with his delivery
"I don't take no anesthetic. Did Lincoln ask for any girlie gas when they blowed his head off?"
he's throwing 18.7% cutters this year
in the past he was trying to do a curveball or a slider
this is the first year where he has a significant percentage of changeups. but this could be his unclassifiable pitch
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 5, 2011 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he's only throwing his cuttery/sinkery thing as a 2nd pitch
not convinced he’s tossing a change at all, I think it’s probably just the cuttery thing getting mis-classified.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 9, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
oddly enough
there are just as many votes for Lynn as there are for Motte right now. you could be the tiebreaker
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 6, 2011 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions

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