A Weekend Pilgrimage Without a St. Louis Cardinals Win
Whenever I see a big-league ballpark I always think of Crash Davis sitting on the bus in Bull Durham, holding court before the youngsters, telling them what it's like in "The Show," where the "ballparks are like cathedrals." Whenever I see Busch Stadium I think of Annie Savoy's "Church of Baseball." For the Cards are a religion of sorts to me and that makes Busch Stadium the cathedral. This weekend I made a pilgrimage to the promised land of what has been marketed "Baseball Heaven" to bask in the Church of Baseball.
Going to a Cardinals game has never been easy for those of us in the outposts of Cardinal Nation. While fortunate enough to be within driving distance of St. Louis, going to a Cards game requires a bit of planning, expense, and the watching of the weather forecast and praying. My particular pilgrimage is nearly 400 miles one-way and takes about five and a half hours, the bulk of which is spent zipping southward on the "Avenue of the Saints," so named for the cities that bookend the string of state highways that make up the "Avenue." Leaving work early in the day on Friday, I reached downtown St. Louis at about half past four Friday afternoon. There were tanks, helicopters, and the terrifying Osprey parked on the once and future site of Ballpark Village, but these novel sights did little to distract from the drinking in of Busch Stadium, my ultimate destination on this picturesque Midwestern summer day.
It's the dress of your fellow fans that creates a bit of an expectation. Over the years, my collection of Cardinals apparel has ballooned, from a handful of faded relics of the glory days of Whiteyball that my dad once owned and some early-Aughts t-shirts--including a Jim Edmonds t-jersey--to a collection that contains a handful of jerseys* and dozens t-shirts today. The question of what to wear for me becomes far more involved than it ever should. I put more thought into it than in what I'm going to wear for church. On Friday, I went with my Bob Gibson t-jersey and the 1944 Cardinals cap that bears the "STL" of my avatar.
*I generally decide against even bringing the jerseys to St. Louis, let along wearing one of them, because I'm petrified of spilling nacho cheese or ketchup on one of them.
While making my way around Busch on Friday night, I wound up in Ford Plaza, which is the open area out behind the all-inclusive center field seating. On this night, Kerry Robinson was signing autographs and, after forgetting which club was visiting for the weekend, the Cardinals yardbarker assured me and those around me that we would get Robinson's autograph if we got in line. Now, I don't know how often Robinson signs autographs in Ford Plaza. I suspect fairly regularly. However often, being an out-of-towner, this was the first time I'd ever had to get Robinson's autograph and I'd be lying if I said that a plan didn't develop in mind: buy an authentic baseball and get Robinson to sign it, "Kerry Robinson, PH, '01 NLDS Game 5." Be sure to get him to sign it No. 13, too, because he wore No. 13 in 2001...Being somewhat self-aware of my age quickly got the better of me and I bought a hot dog instead, which seemed a better thing to overpay for at that particular point in time and I left Ford Plaza to go walk around the rest of Busch III. After all, I was wearing a red t-shirt, so I didn't have to worry about ketchup stains.
Amongst the so-called Best Fans In Baseball© this weekend, I drank up the atmosphere, the cracks of a round ball being struck by a round bat, he green of the outfield, and Ernie Hays on the organ. There is no replacement for attending a ballgame in-person and there never can be. For all of the incredible technological advances, from cable television to high-definition picture quality, the atmosphere on a picturesque night in late June as the sun sets and baseball is played cannot be recreated. As cameramen zoom in on baserunners or individual fielders pursuing batted balls, they inevitably miss the greater context of all nine fielders in motion, a baserunner sneaking a peak over his shoulder as he starts his round of second, and the third base coach imploring him for third. The cameras miss Skip Schumaker jogging a shinguard over to the opposition's first base coach. No video has yet shown just how theribaux Ryan Theriot's throws from shortstop to first base really truly are, either. And Fox Sports Midwest may never properly capture Lance Berkman strolling to the batter's box as Johnny Cash croons as the crowd cheers him.
This weekend, for the first time in my years as a Cardinals fan, the club lost the two games that I attended. The club is scuffling right now, struggling to piece together nine innings of effective pitching and to generate runs without Pujols, Freese, and Craig. And that was apparent this weekend as Westbrook struggled on Friday before Bautista hit a game-winning homer off of Fernando Salas in the top of the ninth. Then, Garcia looked sharp on Saturday but for one inning and the offense couldn't sustain a rally. The weekend games' results were undeniably disappointing. But, as I made my way home on Sunday, with Shannon and Rooney fading into static as I drove out of the range of one Cardinals radio affiliate and into the static-tinged outer reaches of the range of another, I couldn't help but think about what an enjoyable weekend I just had, even if the Cards didn't win a game.
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i know that its always premature to panic
of course, right up until its too late to panic. But at the moment it just doesn’t feel like the cards are capable of winning games of baseball, let alone winning a few in a row. Its just very, very frustrating to watch the team go from 10+ games over .500 to just 3 or 4 games over in the space of a week or so. I just hope Tony gets the hairdryer out sooner rather than later.
totes babes
It is my belief that if the Cardinals can stay within striking distance of the division lead,
this team will go on a tear in August and September and win the division.
Like you mention though, I am also very concerned that the current version of the 2011 Cardinals can do anything more than win once every 4 or 5 games. We may be buried before Pujols returns.
by Ghostrider520 on Jun 27, 2011 8:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Our club got dinged up just as the Brewers started to get healthy.
We lost Holliday, Freese, K-Mac, Punto, Craig just about the time that they got Hart back and Fielder then went on a tear.
If our club is healthy, we will have a shot at winning the division. Although, considering the number and severity of the injuries the last couple of seasons, that’s not something that’s a given.
I do think, however, that it’s better than being the wholly underachieving Redlegs.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I'm surprised we have stayed in the Central hunt given our injuries.
We haven’t had our Opening Day lineup on the field since Freese went down and won’t have our Opening Day lineup on the field again until, hopefully, when Pujols returns.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
If we were to DFA Franklin
What is the next step?
Keeping a 5 man rotation of Carpenter, Garcia, Lohse, McClellan, and Westbrook (in alphabetical order), how would everyone comprise the 7-man bullpen? What if it were an 8-man bullpen?
Hard to predict.
Augenstein could come back or they could look at Todd/Ottavino/Marte/other AAA arm.
At some point there will be a decision on the lefties, because I don’t see the team sticking with 3 long-term. Valdes may get to throw another inning or two this week and then they will probably decide which 2 lefties to keep.
I’d be surprised if they DFA Franklin right now. It’s not like he’s holding them back from a bunch of wins.
by Ghostrider520 on Jun 27, 2011 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions
This would seem like the Mo's playbook for this:
- Take a pile of cash, douse with gasoline, strike match. (This is just to mimic what it would be like for Bill DeWitt to DFA Ryan Franklin — but hey, at least the fire will provide warmth for a homeless person, which is 1000 times more value than our club has gotten for Franklin this year).
- Toss Miguel Batista’s lone remaining batting practice jersey into the burning pile of cash, just for good measure.
- Look at VEP’s Franklin analysis from April, attempt to figure out where things went wrong, give up after 20 minutes, pour a stiff drink.
- Call Twins to see if Matt Capps is available. Settle for trading stories with Twins GM about what it’s like to pay a 37 year old closer millions of dollars to completely suck to the point where burning piles of cash in the parking lot is more productive.
- Turn on Cleveland Indians game, watch Chris Perez strike out the side to complete his 19th save of the season, cry.
I have no idea what they do in terms of the roster.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
by fourstick on Jun 27, 2011 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
but
frankie would only be a loss of $1M or so, much less than kennedy and others they have let go mid-season. keeping him is just fishing in the deepest well of unjustified optimism and loyalty
crying is good, purges the soul
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
True
Send your pile of one million $1 bills to my home address then…I thank you in advance.
In all seriousness, it’s not like he’s making a huge pile of cash, it’s the fact that he really never should have had a contract tendered for 2011 anyway. It was an extension that didn’t need to be made.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
a very sad fact indeed
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 27, 2011 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Why do we always stick with these relievers until they crash and burn?
Isringhausen, King, White, Eldred, Miller, Franklin, Dennys, Flores on and on and on. By my count, in the last decade we’ve cut two guys loose before they completely imploded: Steve Kline (who had issues with TLR and wasn’t coming back for any price) and Russ Springer.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Mid-western nice is stuck in the engaged position?
Unless the FO, ie Dewitt, doesn’t want to come off as a real hard-ass. That list of players transcends Mo, so he can’t be blamed for all of it.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 27, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
its a lot of money, more than i have to spare
sorry, but really
having an usable player on the 25 man whose cost is now <1% of annual payroll makes no sense
use him or boot him
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
I have a co-worker from there...something you need to know in particular?
by Ghostrider520 on Jun 27, 2011 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions
I was just interested in tourist-y stuff
i’m going there with family in about 4 weeks and staying for 3 weeks. I was thinking how long we should spend in various places, like KL, Penang etc? I don’t really want to spend too long in one place with nothing to see or do.
totes babes
oh good you got this
I was just talking to my friend in Malaysia.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I am by no means an expert
but enjoy the food. a lot. you will have plenty to do.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
OK she says you should go to Melaka and Penang as there are a lot
of tourist stuff to do there. In KL (?) go to Batu Caves, the shopping district (Petaling Street and Sungei Wang)
by Ghostrider520 on Jun 27, 2011 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
She also says you have to go to Kek Lok Si temple in Penang.
It’s the biggest Buddhist temple in Malaysia. For beaches she recommends Redang Island and Sipadan Island. Good places to dive, I guess.
by Ghostrider520 on Jun 27, 2011 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
thanks
i’ve got a guide book but it tends to say that everything is the most amazing thing ever. so needed some perspective.
Anyone ever been to malaysia as a tourist? Just out of curiosity.
totes babes
Yes. I've been to KL
I really didn’t like it at all. We were only there for a couple of nights. Stayed in the Marriott as it has to be one of the cheapest * hotels I’ve seen, although tbh it’s probably not quite a five-star compared to the only other one I stayed in.
There really didn’t seem to be much to do in KL and it’s a fairly ugly city IMO. I can’t especially recommend going up either the KL tower or Petronas (you have to get there really early in the morning, and although the skybridge is quite impressive and free, there seems a lot of queueing involved and it’s only about halfway up the building) as the skyline/view isn’t that amazing. At least from the KL Tower you can see the Petronas, I guess.
So, basically I’d probably gravitate more towards other parts of the country, with the usual huge caveats that I was only in KL for a couple of nights and mine and your tastes in terms of things to do might be totes different.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 28, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Rosenthal update
6.0 IP, 4 H (0 XBH), 1 ER, 2 BB (also 1 HBP, that makes 10 on the season), 5 K, 10:3 GO:FO
Can I get a call-up?
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 6/27/2011)
63 IP, 75 K, 29 BB/HBP, 23 ER, 2 HR, 2.61 FIP
by VolsnCards5 on Jun 27, 2011 9:19 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Sorry. Should have said promotion
Can I get a promotion
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 6/27/2011)
63 IP, 75 K, 29 BB/HBP, 23 ER, 2 HR, 2.61 FIP
by VolsnCards5 on Jun 27, 2011 9:36 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That 10 HBPs is Laloosh-esque though.
The other teams probably hate to dig in, which adds to his SO’s
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 27, 2011 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Hit the Fredbird.
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Never been to the cathedral
I have been a Cardinals fan since age 11, yet have never seen them at Busch Stadium. I saw them a couple weeks ago in Minute Maid park where Allen Craig tried to run through a fence and Pujols decided the train track in left field needed a baseball caught up in the rails. I’ve seen them at PNC, Dodger Stadium, Jack Murphy (showing my age), and The Vet.
What I need is a way to sell a trip to St. Louis to the wife.
Forest Park, City Museum, Botanical Gardens...
gambling?
by Ghostrider520 on Jun 27, 2011 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions
a selling point for her..
a giant shopping mall or shopping district.
I think there are several smaller places that she could aim her/your pocketbook at.
I don’t know enough about such things to have comparison sizes. St.Clair has more stores than I ever want to walk into.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 27, 2011 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions
It is really "neat" to walk around in the area of Wash U and the hospital
Lots of cool bars, quaint shops, and tasty cafe’s. Not to mention the Cupcakery
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 6/27/2011)
63 IP, 75 K, 29 BB/HBP, 23 ER, 2 HR, 2.61 FIP
by VolsnCards5 on Jun 27, 2011 10:07 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'll have to keep that in mind.
St. Louis always has more to do than I actually have time for when I’m there.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 27, 2011 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, the Central West End is a cool area
Unfortunately the Cupcakery is no longer actually called that. They had to change their name to “The Cup” at some point. I think it was a legal issue.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
galleria, chesterfield mall, west county mall, st louis mills, plaza fontenac
union station tasty tasty fudge…
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 58
Zoo, Muny, eat at the hill (I reccomend Trattoria Marsala with Bruschetta and Toasted Ravioli as appetizers because the Bruschetta is Legen, wait for it, dary and you can't come to St Louis without having toasted Rav)
It doesnt have appeal to those of us who live here but out of towners seem to love the arch, which is also next to the stadium . . .
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jun 27, 2011 11:11 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
FWIW
Trattoria Marcella is not on the Hill. It is, however, better Italian eats than anything you will find on the Hill, IMHO. And that’s not to denigrate the Hill restaurants, there are some fine eateries there – TM is just that good.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 27, 2011 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
it's like three minutes from the hill, though.
"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon
I always thought that whole section was the hill
Even on Gravois there you have Trattoria Marsla, you have that pizzeria. Is the hill just Shaw because Rigazzi’s and Amaghettis are a couple blocks south too and I always thought they were on the hill. I’m so confused! I can’t handle proximity! Hulk Smash!
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jun 27, 2011 11:23 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Trattoria Marsala is in Lindenwood Park
The Hill is Manchester on the north, Southwest Avenue and Columbia to the south, Kingshighway on the east, and Hampton on the west.
"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon
Thank you
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jun 27, 2011 11:28 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Marcella
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
Their menu has a veal marsala at the moment, though
And now I’ve looked at the whole menu and am literally salivating a little. I think I can make it until lunch…
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
neighborhood pedantry ahead. . .
I would put the Hill’s western border at January/Sulphur – it really pretty much “ends” on the west side of Macklind.
Trattoria Marcella is not quite Lindenwood Park, not quite St. Louis Hills – it’s in a tweener neighborhood. If the neighborhood were an outfielder, it would be John Jay.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 27, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm just going off the actual city borders.
"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon
Oh and if you like beer we have no shortage of that
The city has AB, Schlafly, etc. And if you don’t mind a 30-45 min cruise out and you like wine, the counties have plenty of wineries, especially the Washington/Marthasville area. I mean seriously we are home to the largest beer company in the world as well as some great smaller breweries (AB seems to buy all of them but Schlafly though) and Washington, MO is the wine capital of the US, we know how to drink, and drinking is fun
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jun 27, 2011 11:19 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, Wiki (all hail!) puts MO at 12th in wine production in the US.
89% of US wine comes out of CA.
...and his name was Eduardo Sanchez, and the name of his slider was Death -DanUp
by The Continental on Jun 27, 2011 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
a few years a ago we drove to Maine
and we went thru upper NYstate in early Oct during the harvest. That was impressive. vineyards as far as you could see going straight up the mountains.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 27, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
NY is second in production.
I was thinking OR or WA, but NY just edges out WA and dwarfs OR.
Which is really why I looked that up. I was curious about who was after CA.
...and his name was Eduardo Sanchez, and the name of his slider was Death -DanUp
by The Continental on Jun 27, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
If you ever get a chance to see it, do so.
CA must be nothing but vines, cuz NY’s went for miles. There was the smell of grape juice in the air so thick, you could literally taste it.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 27, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Missouri, not the US
Sorry, I was telling my wife Where Baltimore was and my brain was still on that wavelength. Point is hooray Booze
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jun 27, 2011 11:27 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
boooooooo
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 58
ze
...and his name was Eduardo Sanchez, and the name of his slider was Death -DanUp
by The Continental on Jun 27, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
o/
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 58
\o
...and his name was Eduardo Sanchez, and the name of his slider was Death -DanUp
by The Continental on Jun 27, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Don't mess with Mr Booze.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 28, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Yay, booze!
...and his name was Eduardo Sanchez, and the name of his slider was Death -DanUp
by The Continental on Jun 27, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
We have lots of (micro)breweries other than AB and Schafly now.
There’s Urban Chestnut, Morgan Street, Highlands, Square One, Buffalo, Six Row, and the soon to be open Four Hands and Civil Life off the top of me head.
"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon
TrailHead in St. Charles has been around for quite a while now
and does a fine job.
...and his name was Eduardo Sanchez, and the name of his slider was Death -DanUp
by The Continental on Jun 27, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I've been to Morgan Street, the others are helpful
I know restaurants in STL well but not breweries and I was trying to let my friend from Wisconsin know that we have plenty of beer here, so far he likes Schlafly oatmeal stout and Pale Ale and Shocktop White (I don’t do the raspberry myself) and doesn’t like Budweiser of Schlafly Summer lager ( apparently he just doesn’t like lager) so now I’m equipped where I can show him even more than I would have, it’s going to be a fun summer
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jun 27, 2011 12:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Six Row
is my favorite by far (as far as beer goes)… Schlafly is a close second…
"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our close rooms...the game of ball is glorious." Whitman
sadly, the working women survival show is in february.
hmm.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I thought Az was going to publish these as e-books or something?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
You'll see...
YOU’LL ALL SEE!!!!
"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon
Since you've changed your avatar,
I think I might do the same.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Didn't know we had the stiff post
Although the first entry mentions Purina being in Eureka but it’s in Gray Summit
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jun 27, 2011 6:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
*stuff
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jun 27, 2011 6:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm an american
I don’t vote.
Grit != flat out sucking.
by Evilfrog on Jun 27, 2011 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
are you my nephew?
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 27, 2011 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
strangest comment ever.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 27, 2011 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Not yet...
- We’re banged up pretty good right now and will get some players back shortly that should displace lesser players.
- We still have the best road record in the division.
- We have the easiest July schedule of any of the top 3 teams in the division.
If we can get to the trade deadline within 4 games of the lead, we’ll have a very good chance of winning the division. That said, we need some serious bullpen help, STAT!
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
This
My fear is that the 1 or 2 or 3 (I can’t make up my mind) better than awful members of the bullpen will be worn out by then, making the bullpen situation all that more dire.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 27, 2011 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Was at the game Friday
What a great time, even with such a heartbreaking loss. I didn’t make it to st Louis last year at all so it was nice to get back. We arrived at 3 to check into our hotel (the crowne plaza) and got lucky and got an arch view room, which was made doubly awesome by the fact it was marine week and there were a bunch of helicopter flyovers going on by the arch. Enjoyed a couple beers on the sidewalk of 4th before making our way to the stadium. For the first time we had all inclusive tickets so it took a little navigating and asking of ushers to get to the right place but once we were in it was really something. Anyone who has never done the all inclusive tickets, do it. We got ours for 60 a piece which is just unbelievable when you consider that includes a 2 hour all you can eat buffet and free beer and soda from a half hour before gametime until the end of the top of the 8th. I will be purchasing all inclusive tickets every time I go from here on.
Also, I really thought jay was gonna snag that homer. Oh so close.
by lopey986 on Jun 27, 2011 9:53 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
FYI, bgh
Ernie retired from playing at the stadium to spend more time at your hotel with his family.
"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon
Him playing from 5:00 to 7:00 seemed odd to me.
After all, there is a need for organ music inside Busch once the gates open.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
For those who didn't see the update...
Kozma and Brown optioned to Memphis…Freese and Punto will be activated for tomorrow’s game.
by Ghostrider520 on Jun 27, 2011 10:23 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
woohoo!
Freese! woop woop woop wooop woop woop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJBKyTfCjCc&feature=related
Grit != flat out sucking.
Punto!
Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions
by jd is legend on Jun 27, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
St. Louis Cardinals Pitchers in June
Worst ERA in MLB: 4.95
Worst FIP in MLB: 4.49
10th Worst xFIP in MLB: 3.95
2nd Worst LOB% in MLB: 68.2%
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Pujols Injury Impact
So, when Mang was first injured, I figured it would really hurt his value for a new contract. Now, watching this limp dick offense, I get concerned as to what the Birdos would look like without Mang. Who is impacted more by his injury – Mang or the team – when it comes to his new contract?
SD
I'm more concerned about what they look like without David Freese, Allen Craig, and Nick Punto.
Yesterday, TLR started Descalso and Schumaker against a lefthanded starting pitcher. Neither should ever start against a lefty. It’s been six games and the club has faced Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee, and Ricky Romero in three of the six games. All are excellent pitchers.
I’m more worried about the pitching than I am the offense.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
We could buy some pretty decent bats.....
With what we’d save for not paying AP.
Not saying I’d look forward to it, just saying it isn’t like if we lose out on AP, we’ll just run the same team, minus him, out there. Bring back Berkman, and go sign another power bat. Still probably could upgrade another positional player too.
@Ackerman1120: Great line by TLR last night at the MAC. He was at the podium when a server nearly dropped an entire tray. TLR: “Sounds like our defense.”
"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Jun 27, 2011 11:05 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I gotta say...
this might be the worst TLR team I can remember in terms of fundamentals on both sides of the ball. Making errors on routine plays, not knowing where to go with the baseball, missing cutoff men, not getting bunts down. It’s just really pathetic to watch at times.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Yeah. . .
it’s one thing to sacrifice defense for offense (i.e. Theriot for Boog). I undertand that andd actually agreed with it. (Granted, I thought The Riot’s problem was lack of range, not a complete inability to play defense.) For all that, the players have delivered essentially the same value so far.
It’s a completely different ball of wax, however, to have a team that doesn’t do the little things right. He’s been better of late, but Rasmus’ throwing and decision making were atrocious early in the season, just for one example. All of the dropped pop-ups, the throws to the wrong base, etc. is really disheartening.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 27, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
THIS.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jun 27, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
The double play
is the one instance that requires the second baseman to make stronger throw than the shortstop. If and when Theriot moves to second, look for less completed DP’s than Shumaker or Descalso.
I think footwork
and quick hands are more important than arm strength.
by CardFaninTTown on Jun 27, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
eh
not all double plays, and not all throws from short
A throw in the hole when you catch a ball going away from 1B, for instance, is a harder throw than any DP pivot from a pure arm standpoint.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 27, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
No
not on all double plays and i should have said that “more often” requires a stronger throw. I disagree that a second baseman going to his right into the hole is a stronger throw because you should set up your throw .
I based my statement on the more typical DP where a second basemen is fed the ball and has to do a 140 degree pivot and make what is pretty an arm throw. I’m just saying that I don’t think Theroit might have trouble nipping a lot
fast runners hustling down the line.
yes sir
getting to balls, catching balls is one thing
but not throwing to the right place, not backing up is another
what minor league system trained these guys?
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
I blame youth.
I cannot remember so many young positional players playing so many innings on a “good” team. Then you have the Theriot stuff, but that should begin to even out over time. He isn’t THAT bad of a SS.
Who is young?
Rasmus and Jay are young-ish, I guess.
"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon
Theriot, Berkman, and Schumaker.
Oh, wait. I suppose Descalso is and so is Craig. But, they’ve been two of the better players in terms of fundamentals. Tyler Greene is probably the primary culprit.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Greene turns 28 this summer!
And Descalso learned to bunt fighting the Gerrys in 1944!
"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon
(I just realized Tyler Greene is in his peek years.)
"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon
Next year will be his peakiest
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Well.....
Rasmus, Jay, Craig, and Green are youngish. Even Freese, experience-wise.
Kozma, Hamilton, Cruz, Descalso, Brown, Matt Carpenter. That is A LOT of first year players to bring in and play. We’ve pretty much started a rookie at 3B all season.
But one of the "young" guys (Descalso) is arguably our best defensive infielder.
The rest have barely been in the starting lineup.
"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon
...and our worst defensive infielder
is the “veteran” Ryan Theriot.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Theriot isn't THAT bad of a SS?
From what I’ve seen, he isn’t THAT good of one either.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 27, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I think I pretty much disagree with everything you just said.
Theriot IS that bad of a SS. The fielding metrics demonstrate this, as do scouting reports and visually watching him play the position. He is a second baseman with the bat of a SS.
Second, we’re not really all that young of a team. We have a number of players with 5+ seasons of MLB experience (Pujols, Yadi, Berkman, Holliday) and even the “young” guys have 3-4 years or more of professional experience in the minor leagues. You DON’T learn fundamentals at the big league level — you’re expected to be able to do AT LEAST those things when you arrive. If not, then why the hell do we have a minor league system then? What is the purpose?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Heh
I was one of the more vociferous defenders of the Cards’ decision to trade defense (Boog) for offense (The Riot) in the off-season. And from a value perspective, they are still within a hot week or so of each other (Theriot 0.5 vs. Boog 1.0) – - I have problems with the way that replacement value is figured into the mix when comparing players, particularly at the same position, but that doesn’t really matter for these purposes.
But I don’t know that I can agree with this any more:
He is a second baseman with the bat of a SS.
From what I have seen, he just can’t catch balls hit right at him. That’s unlikely to change much at 2B. And I’m not so sure that his subpar range will be helped that much by a move to 2B, particularly with the rangy Pujols being replaced by the Folgers coffee version of Lance Berkman.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 27, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
He has a weak and in-accurate arm for a SS
He would have a lot more time to make throws that are a lot shorter at 2B than at SS. He’s also not bad going to his left, and he could adjust position more to favor that side at 2B too.
He’s not going to be a plus defender anywhere, but he could be slightly above average at 2B — he’ll never be that good at SS from what I’ve seen so far this year.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Watching Ryan Theriot throw the ball to first base live and in-person
is even more frustrating than watching it on television.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
If Eckstein can play SS, Theriot can too.
Would I rather have a good SS, and move Theriot to 2B, and bench Skip? Sure. But we don’t have a better SS.
We did.
I think that’s been the point of the whole argument against Theriot the entire year.
by WizardofOz1982 on Jun 27, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Except we have had.
Punto is a better SS than Theriot. Of course we can’t do anything about his time on the DL but he should have been playing SS the rest of the year.
by WizardofOz1982 on Jun 29, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Theriot makes Eckstein look like an above average SS
while neither has the arm of a classic SS, at least Eck could field the balls hit right at him.
Theriot
I’m not talking about his stats this year. I’m talking about what could have, and should have, been expected before the season started. Maybe my info on him was wrong, but I don’t remember him being a guy that makes a ton of errors. He is booting easy balls. That isn’t a skill problem, and probably isn’t something that will continue all season. We all know he doesn’t have the range/arm of some of the better SS’s. I was/am willing to deal with that. He just needs to stop booting the routine plays.
He booted a lot of balls his last season and a half in Chicago.
So many that they moved him off the position….and then ultimately traded him. His offense has been ok, but it hasn’t been spectacular by any means. Normailze his BABIP and his OBP drops to around .325: at that point he’s essentially a worthless baseball player that will cost us far more runs than he can possibly produce.
The Cardinals problem is that they traded away a guy who could have played SS everyday, even if he didn’t produce at the same offensive level, and there’s nobody who’s any better to replace him within the organization at any level. If you’re Ryan Theriot, YOU’VE GOT IT MADE. You can play as shitty as humanly possible and keep your job because there’s literally nobody that’s even replacement level in the organization to replace you.
Sadly, if Nick Punto comes back, I would rather he played SS even if that means he walks to the plate with a broomstick, takes three strikes, and walks back to the dugout at every plate appearance. That’s how important I think defense at SS is to our pitching staff, as currently constituted.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Normalize his .320 BABIP to his career .316 BABIP?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
probably a bit more
league BABIP is down about .010 points this year
Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter
They keep trying to strike down his offense
because they hate his defense. If you can play off his offensive production as lucky (which… they are attempting to do), then they will because they try to make him seem as bad as they can make him seem so they can convince us he’s bad at baseball.
Basically, if you hate a player, you try to make him seem as bad as possible which fourstick is trying to do.
"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker
by stlcardsfan4 on Jun 27, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
on second thought, maybe this is what i'm doing
no word yet
Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter
"flag" is what you are looking for
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
No, he's just really fucking bad
And I’m a bit tired of everyone pretending that his offense is so good that we can afford his shitty defense. it’s not.
Currently, he has a .346 OBP with a 6% walk rate. Which means that he has to continue to slap the ball for singles (because his career slugging % is an impeccably awful .355) in order to have any value at all. We talk about 3TO players — Ryan Theriot is a 1TO player: If he doesn’t slap the ball for singles 3 out of every 10 times at the plate, HE’S WORTHLESS.
This is not my sole opinion — it’s the collective opinion of the sabermetric community.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Don't you understand?
This team needs “empty .300 slap hitters with terrible defense”! It needs them! They play hard and fill a role on this team! And other cliches as well!
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
I think you're denigrating Theriot's offense a bit much. . .
In his heyday (such as it was), he was never an Ichiro!/Gary Pettis/Vince Coleman type who got hits on the basis of his speed – - he’s a guy who sprays line drives around the park. He has consistently been a 19-20% line drive hitter, which isn’t world-beating, but it’s pretty decent for a SS. That skill doesn’t necessarily fall off of a cliff, and there’s no evidence that Theriot’s skill to hit hard line drives has dropped.
By his own admission, his off years were when he tried to power up – voila, he’s not hitting a lower percentage of balls for liners, he’s just putting significantly less balls in play because his strikeout rates spiked.
Now he’s no Barry Larkin, but I see no reason to believe that his batting average / OBP to date aren’t sustainable.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 27, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Larkin had other skills that made him valuable
Namely: He played excellent defense for the majority of his career. He also had 9 seasons of double digit homers and 5 seasons with 30 or more doubles. His career slugging percentage is .444. His career walk rate was 10.4%.
He didn’t have to hit .300 in order to provide his team value, and that’s why he should be in the HOF in my opinion.
Theriot is a one trick pony. If he ever has a stretch where he’s not spraying line drives, he provides no other value as a player.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Well, yeah.
That’s what I said. Where we differ is that I see no evidence that Theriot’s line drive hitting ability has regeressed.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 27, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
And I see no evidence that he's been good enough at it in the past
that he can continue to provide value doing that and JUST that.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I don't understand this
If he ever has a stretch where he’s not spraying line drives
Yes, it’s true, if he stops hitting liners, he’s going to be bad. Of course, if he has a stretch where he hits TONS of liners, he’ll be like super-duper useful as a player. And if, in the end, he comes back to hitting the 19-20% liners overall, then what’s your point exactly?
Of course, if he has a stretch where he hits TONS of liners, he’ll be like super-duper useful as a player.
No, he won’t. Lance Berkman could hit .230 for a month and provide more value than Theriot will provide in his best month. Why? Because Berkman’s walk rate isn’t likely to drop off a cliff. How many players can sustain hitting .350-.360 just on line drive singles? Not many, and I don’t think that Ryan Theriot is one of those guys, because he’s not done it once. Wade Boggs was a “super-duper useful” player. Why? Because he could hit .330 while walking 15-18% of the time while playing average defense at 3B.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
i, for one, think theriot will hit .350-.360
Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter
Why are you comparing a Hall-of-Famer to Theriot?
Ok so Theriot won’t provide as much value as Lance Berkman. Cool. Neither will likely Colby Rasmus.
I don’t get the point. Oh and Wade Boggs is super useful too. Comparing Theriot to Boggs and Berkman makes absolutely no sense to me.
"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker
by stlcardsfan4 on Jun 27, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Because those guys were/are "super-duper useful"
They have other skills besides hitting line drives for base hits 20% of the time. Theriot doesn’t — no matter what he hits, he’s not “super-duper useful”, he’s still just a one trick pony.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Ok but that's a really stupid point.
Theriot isn’t as useful as a Hall-of-Famer. SURPRISE! Plus nobody is saying he is that great anyway.
It’s more of a well he’s ok and i can live with it more than I can with Aaron Miles. But then you go and compare him to HOFs for no reason at all other than to say Theriot isn’t as good at baseball as them. Ok well none of us are surprised at this. And when you do this, then nobody has any idea at all what you’re arguing about.
"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker
by stlcardsfan4 on Jun 27, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Theriot isn't even as useful as David Eckstein was
And, surprise, David Eckstein’s value took a big tumble. When? About the time he couldn’t slap base hits at a high rate anymore. Why? Who the hell knows, and nobody can predict when that happens with any particular player, AND THAT’S ENTIRELY THE PROBLEM HERE.
We have a ticking time bomb at SS. When his ability to get lots of base hits takes a turn of bad luck, or when he simply can’t do it anymore for whatever reason, he immediately becomes a liability to the entire club as he provides no other value other than his ability to hit around .300.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Finally a relevant comparison.
Well Eckstein stopped being a useful player in 2008, when he was 33.
Theriot’s 31. For just 2011, I like Theriot’s chances to have a .320 BABIP. JUST FOR 2011.
After that I’d agree with you, but Theriot is under contract for 2011 and not beyond and you seem to be arguing Theriot will get awful in the future which doesn’t matter right now since he’s not under contract past 2011!
"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker
by stlcardsfan4 on Jun 27, 2011 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I'm arguing that players with just his one skill have a terrible
penchant for unpredictably losing that ability at any time. And let’s not be overly generous — even his one skill isn’t all that good to begin with. The fact that he’s in his 30’s and is a middle infielder who has also seemed to lose his range at SS over the last couple of seasons also doesn’t give me great hope.
He’s the best we have, and it’s a fucking shame. But to say that his defense is tolerable because of his offense is really just putting on the rose colored shades.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
dude
you’re mixing qualitative observation and stats in a way that doesn’t really work, and ending up with the worst of both worlds.
To date, Ryan Theriot’s offense and defense this year have combined to form a slightly-above-replacement-level player. There is no compelling stats-based reason to think that his offense will worsen significantly this year. Qualitative observations about the “vulnerability” of one-tool players exist in a different realm, and don’t have much to contribute to a conversation about Theriot on these terms.
No one’s trying to argue the guy’s crazy good. He’s been a marginally-above-replacement level player to date, and will most likely continue to be through the end of the season. You can expect otherwise, but you’re doing it for qualitative, not quantitative, reasons.
by Robth on Jun 27, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Who the hell are you
And why aren’t you posting more often
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
by mysterui on Jun 27, 2011 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I rarely manage to follow threads in real time
I do a mix of stats and other quant-programming stuff at my job, so I’m always fascinated by these conversations, but I rarely get the chance to sit in live.
Love the stuff you guys do, though. (obviously)
I like you.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
You're being clingy again rui
Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions
by jd is legend on Jun 27, 2011 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions
or maybe
pioneering the trend of “exchanges of compliments between awkward dudes on the internet.”
It could a movement, for which we would have a holiday or some other form of celebration.
(seriously, though, thumbs up for the friendly atmosphere around here, makes it a pleasing place to lurk.)
Anyway, time for me to leave the office now.
Yeah, man.
What he said.
"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker
by stlcardsfan4 on Jun 27, 2011 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not expecting or predicting anything, thank you so very much.
I’m simply saying that players who have one marginally above replacement skill are ticking time bombs because if the one skill fades they have no other skills that provide positive value. I don’t think anyone disagrees with this.
Then someone said I hated Ryan Theriot and was just going to make the stats bend to my will to prove so. Which is a complete crock of shit, because everyone in this thread would agree that he’s below average at: defense, throwing, baserunning, slugging, and drawing walks.
I’m tired of people defending his awful defense by saying: Well, at least he’s good with the bat. No, Michael Young is good with the bat. Hanley Ramirez is good with the bat. Theriot is merely replacement level with the bat — he’s not “good”, he’s “the best we have at the moment” and that is a HUGE difference.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
No, he's well above replacement level with the bat
There’s literally no evidence otherwise
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Yup, he's awesome
why don’t we just fill out a team of guys like him.
Oh, wait, somebody did
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Yes this was relevant
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
by mysterui on Jun 27, 2011 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
How bad is our middle infield?
Someone earlier was debating about trading for Mark Ellis to IMPROVE IT. Holy hell that’s bad.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
You mean the Mark Ellis who averages 3.4 WAR/162 games?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
And is currently hitting .217/.253/.290
Yup, same one.
Those predictive stats sure are awesome.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
But hey, at least he can field a ground ball at an above average rate
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
...what?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
by mysterui on Jun 27, 2011 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
And I'm not mixing anything or predicting anything
I’m simply pointing out that if this level of play is his baseline, a fact of which I’m dubious but the stats seem to back this up, then there’s a chance that he could get worse, and it’s that chance that NOBODY seems to want to talk about.
The conversation seems to be:
- “Well his defense sucks, but it was good two years ago, so it might get better”
- “He was worth over 3 WAR back in ’08, maybe he can find that level again”
- “His defense is bad, but his offense is good enough that we can win games with him”
So, it seems that everyone else is making predictions, and rosy ones. All I’m trying to do is point out that there are negative outcomes that are equally likely to all those positive ones, and may be more likely given what his current set of skills are, how old he is, and how far detached we are from the last time that he was a productive 2.0 WAR SS.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
It's like you're all just praying to the GOB
that he doesn’t have some precipitous decline this year and then arguing with me to say that there’s nothing to prove that it will happen. Well, looking at rate stats, there’s nothing to PROVE that Ryan Franklin should be any worse this year than he was last year or the year before, but he certainly fucking has been. And again, that’s a version of the same story — when you rely on people who get by on the margins and those people regress, you are left with a worthless player that provides no value.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Why is everyone so optimistic?
Why is every argument that he has only one skill and if that skill goes countered with “well, what if he improves that skill like nobody in the history of baseball”? Well, I guess if that happens I’ll be happy to be wrong. But let’s stop kidding ourselves. He’s been worth .5 WAR with an average BABIP for him and hitting slightly below .300 with his career average walk rate. The chances of him improving that line are far, FAR lower than the chances of him regressing into oblivion, especially so considering his age and his track record the last two seasons.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
his point
is that and extended period where he has a crappy BABIP is random variation that will likely be cancelled out by random variation in the opposite direction
Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter
And that's just not the case
These things don’t all “cancel out”. Sometimes they go down and stay there for good. And when we’re talking about a player with one, and only one damn skill, this can happen more quickly because there’s nothing else to fall back on.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
The most likely scenario
is Theriot maintaining what he’s currently doing, putting up approximately 1 WAR at the end of the season, and being uniquely frustrating to fans.
Falcon Punch!
wat
Why is every argument that he has only one skill and if that skill goes countered with "well, what if he improves that skill like nobody in the history of baseball"?
I didn’t say he’d improve, I said he’d continue. Your argument was that if he stops hitting liners for a stretch, he’ll stop being useful. Well sure, that’s obvious. But if Lance Berkman stops getting on base and hitting for power for a stretch, he’ll stop being useful, too. However, since these are the offensive traits of these various players, you can’t simply remove them and say, “HA! LOOK HOW MUCH HE SUCKS!”
by mojowo11 on Jun 27, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So you equate losing two skills with losing one skill?
That’s a terrible refutation of what I just said. Considering that walk rates and slugging are much more repeatable skills than hitting 20% line drives when you can’t walk or slug at a high rate, this response makes little sense at all.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
My point is
If you take away 1 WAR Theriot’s ability to hit for average, he’ll be a lot less valuable. If you take away Berkman’s ability to hit for average, guess what, he’ll be a lot less valuable, too. He’ll be better than Theriot still, but guess what, he’s a better overall player, he’s paid a lot more money (and not even as much as he’s worth), and it would be expected that he’d be better.
I just don’t get your point. Yeah, Theriot’s not a world-beater. Yeah, if he loses an important part of his offensive game, his offensive game will suffer, and thus his overall value. How does this not apply to every other player on the planet?
Because most other players, including the ones you are talking about
HAVE MORE THAN ONE FUCKING SKILL.
I don’t know why this is so hard to understand. Theriot provides NO VALUE if his one skill happens to diminish. Berkman still has value in his ability to draw walks and hit homers even if he’s not hitting .300. So does Holliday. Molina is a great defensive catcher and handles a pitching staff well while cutting down the other teams running game, so he provides some value when he’s not hitting. Ditto, Rasmus, Pujols, Holliday, Freese, etc. Skip has one skill — hitting .300. Ryan Theriot has one skill — hitting .300. So when they don’t do that THEY ARE WORTHLESS PLAYERS.
So it’s not ok to defend Theriot by saying: “His offense has been good”. It has, but one fewer ground ball with eyes every week will turn him into a .250 hitter, as Crash Davis would say. Just a slight amount of bad luck will turn him into a worthless player. That’s not the case for ANY of those other guys.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Eh
Brendan Ryan is a one skill player.
If he suddenly gets the throwing yips, or gains 35 pouinds and loses two steps of range, he’s pretty useless too.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 27, 2011 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I never said he wasn't
What exactly is your point?
I said I’d rather have the one-skill defender of the one-skill offensive guy at an elite defensive position, and especially with this current roster of starting pitchers.
I think I’ve been pretty clear on that, so why do you keep bringing it up?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Right
So if we remove the ability to hit for average, Theriot goes from a 1 WAR player to a 0 WAR player. Bummer.
And if we removed Berkman’s ability to hit for average, he goes from a 5 WAR player to a 4 WAR player, and is still better than Theriot. Hooray.
People get worse when you arbitrarily remove part of their offensive game. It’s true. What does this say about Ryan Theriot? Nothing. He’s not all that good, and if he got worse, he’d be worse.
Now all that we need is something to suggest that Ryan Theriot should get worse going forward, and you’d have something interesting. I just don’t see anything. Bad luck doesn’t count because, well, it’s bad luck — and it could just as easily be good luck. What in his peripherals suggests he’s going to suddenly get a lot worse in the very near future? His BABIP seems normal for him. He’s cut down his strikeouts from the past few years. He’s hitting liners, walking about the usual amount. He seems to be doing fine, and his results seems driven by skill.
So…yeah, if he becomes worse, he’ll be worse. Good point?
The point is that
I’m not ripping him because I don’t like him, I’m ripping him because he’s one step away from being replacement level and he plays terrible defense, which I personally value very highly at the position that he plays. So I’m not ripping him and bending stats to prove my point, I’m saying that he’s already halfway over the cliff and one small shove could send him down the ravine, and the stats from the last couple of seasons demonstrate this effectively.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Alright
I mean, I don’t really care why you’re ripping him. I just don’t really understand why you’re going out of your way to explain that if he were worse, he’d be worse. I don’t really get why that’s even an angle you’d care to point out unless you had something to say about whether you think he IS going to get worse within the length of his contract (i.e. through the end of the year), but you keep shying away from that, too, and just repeating that he has one skill and that if he gets worse, he’ll be worse. And that if he gets unlucky, he’ll be worse. None of which is really taking a stand about anything.
I find this all very confusing.
by mojowo11 on Jun 27, 2011 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Because nobody seems to want to go there
They rip his defense and then say how they can live with it because of his offense, which I don’t think is anything to write home about either.
I put this all above.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
If by "go there" you mean argue that his offense is above-average and more than makes up for his bad defense such that he has positive value
I believe mysterui went there in this post.
I believe you responded by talking about the Athletics.
I don't believe it does.
Furthermore, I believe his defense to actually be worse than what UZR has captured thus far.
I think his offense cancels out his defense, and think that makes him a replacement level player and one that is not likely to ever be much better than that. He’s a utility guy for most teams — he’s our starting shortstop.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Indeed
we all accept UZR is a bit flawed, right? If so, it could definitely be making him look better than he is.
Or worse?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
are you talking about aaropn theriot?
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
we're not
but overall BABIP is down across the league for various reasons. so theriot (and any player) should be regressed beyond just their normal career average. since the batting environment has changed, so should our expectations of hitters
Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter
ZiPS projects .305 the rest of the season
seems about right to me
Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter
No, normalize it to league average
which right now is about .292, the lowest it’s been in 17 years I think.
He doesn’t walk and he’s a singles hitter. Unless you’re Ichiro, I don’t know how you keep beating league average forever.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Why would I normalize it to anything else?
Prove to me that his true talent level is a .320 hitter on balls in play.
Until then, I’ll continue to normalize to league average.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
You're confusing batting BABIP with pitching BABIP
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Isn't a .292 BABIP for Theriot like the worst case scenario?
"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker
by stlcardsfan4 on Jun 27, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
regressing all the way to league average
is just throwing away a career worth of data for him. doesn’t seem like a very solid strategy to me
Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter
by prophetjohn on Jun 27, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ichiro doesn't walk and is a singles hitter
Why does he get a pass on being able to beat league average BABIP?
BABIP has a skill element for hitters
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
How's Ichiro doing this year?
YOU CAN’T KEEP IT UP FOREVER.
However, Jim Thome can probably continue to walk at a 15% rate until people are really sure that he can’t hit anymore. Plate Discipline is a skill that doesn’t really diminish. Slap hitting the ball around and beating out infield hits is a skill that can diminish in a hurry.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I LOVE TO TYPE IN ALL CAPS
Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter
by prophetjohn on Jun 27, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I SUFFER FROM VOICE IMMODULATION, TINA
Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions
by jd is legend on Jun 27, 2011 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
...
" Unless you’re Ichiro, I don’t know how you keep beating league average forever."
“How’s Ichiro doing this year?
YOU CAN’T KEEP IT UP FOREVER.”
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Ichiro is an outlier
When Ryan Theriot starts slap-bunting from the left side and picks up .6 of a second on his time to first, you can start quoting Ichiro to me. And even he has fallen off considerably as he’s started to age.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
You mean started to age in his 38 season?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
If you want to compare them, then I'm done with this conversation.
It’s been demonstrated that middle infielders with Theriot’s skills tend to slow down in their early 30’s. He’s 31. Should I expect him to bulk up and start hitting dingers too?
He has one skill, one way of providing value. Hitting .300. There are maybe 20-25 true talent .300 hitters in all of baseball right now. Are you making that case that Theriot is one of them? And that he’s going to continue hitting .300 until age 35?
If not, what the hell is your point?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I CALL STRAWMAN
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
by mysterui on Jun 27, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Theriot will have an obp ~.350 at the end of the year.
Why are we talking about his age 35 year? His BABIP is only .004 above his career average. BABIP is a skill for hitters, btw. Yes his walkrate isn’t that great. But his O-swing% is good. His contact % is good. His line drive percentage is good.
He is getting on base because he isn’t swinging at balls, he makes good contact, and he hits line drives. That is skill.
He does lack power. True story. If he had more power he would walk more. The reason he isn’t walking is because pitchers are not throwing him balls. They don’t have a reason too. Worse thing that could happen with a strike is he ends up on first.
Grit != flat out sucking.
by Evilfrog on Jun 27, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly
And there aren’t a lot of hitters who can consistently turn strikes into singles at a high rate. Again, if you think he’s a career .300 hitter, then fine, that’s your opinion. I don’t think he is, and since he doesn’t have any other baseball skills that provide value, I’m quite certain that I don’t want one skill players on my team, unless that skill happens to be great defense from a middle infielder.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
What's the difference whether a one-skill player is skilled offensively of defensively?
I understand the thought that elite defensive SS make groundball pitching staffs more effective but why is an elite fielder more valuable than elite hitter, particularly at SS, as long as they provide the same WAR?
Falcon Punch!
A great defensive middle infielder, like Punto
who can play 2 or 3 different positions at a high level provides a significant amount of utility, particularly in the National League. Plus, great defenders are usually great defenders on a consistent basis whereas a guy who can only do one thing well at the plate, like Theriot, can be streaky, can slump, etc.
Therefore, in terms of predictability, I’d rather have the great defender than the one-skill .300 hitter.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Brendan Ryan
was a notably streaky defensive player, FWIW.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 27, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
How do we determine a "streaky" defensive player?
Can’t do it with statistics. I guess you could do it with observation, but that’s a bit flaky as well.
Defense is a talent and is also effort based. As long as you have talent and apply effort, your defensive prowess is going to be pretty consistent.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I'm not saying it's a skill that doesn't diminish in a hurry
But regressing to league average is pretty dumb
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Expecting him to continue to beat league average is even dumber, in my opinion.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
There are 3000 PAs showing that he is over league average with regards to BABIP
You don’t ignore that. You only regress completely to league average when there are 0 PAs
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
by mysterui on Jun 27, 2011 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fine, don't ignore it
Also, prove to me that he is capable of continuing to hit .300 for the rest of this season. And next season. And the season after that.
Because that is his only skill. Once it goes, he is worthless as a player, as he provides no significant value in any other aspect of the game.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
What the hell are you even arguing anymore
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
by mysterui on Jun 27, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
This is my point and has been all along:
Ryan Theriot has ONE skill: Hitting .300. If he doesn’t hit .300, he can’t be a 1 win player, much less a 2 win or 3 win player. In fact, I’d make the case that if he hits below .280 he won’t even be replacement level.
I don’t want players like this on starting on my team, because those players that have only one way of providing value also happen to have a significant track record of becoming irrelevant pretty quickly.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
In fact,
this has been my point all year long. Since they acquired the fucking guy.
And now everyone seems to have changed their tune because his OBP is .350 and his defense is more horrible then even the worst case scenario’s among us anticipated.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
he was worth 2.5 WAR in 2009 but only hit .284
by all4tookie on Jun 27, 2011 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Career high ISO
7.5% walk rate and he was worth 4 runs on defense that year.
Are you saying that he’s going to do any of those three things again and all at the same time? Because I totally and completely disagree.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
No, I'm not saying that.
I’m saying
If he doesn’t hit .300, he can’t be a 1 win playeris demonstrably incorrect.
- 2007: .266 BA, 1.3 WAR
- 2008: .307 BA, 3.5 WAR (a whopping 4 hits over .300)
- 2009: .284 BA, 2.5 WAR
For his career, he is a .285 hitter, but has been worth ~2 WAR per 600 PAs.
Fine
Let’s play semantics:
The current version of Ryan Theriot can’t provide 1 WAR of value without hitting .29010485-.30007233221.
Happy?
Jesus Christ on a crutch.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
is it semantics?
Even in your “downside case” where Theriot hits .280, you said he wouldn’t be replacement level.
In 2009, he had 2 hits more than .280. He was a 2.5 win player.
In 2007, he had 7 fewer hits than .280. He was a 1.3 win player.
I don’t think that refuting the main point of that particular post with facts is semantics. If it is, what was the point of the post?
Last I checked this is 2011
I think that means something, because in 2007 the DOW hit 14000 and nobody thought that there were any problems in the economy save for a few people. Gosh, a fucking lot has changed in 4 years.
In both of those seasons he provided defensive value and had an ISO that he hasn’t approached in either of the last 2 seasons. So, yes, this is what I believe — if you don’t, then fine, but you aren’t changing MY mind on the subject because I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT STUFF THAT HAPPENED 2 AND 4 YEARS AGO.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I like you, but you're really insufferable to have a debate with
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
You know why that is?
Because someone decided that it would be a good idea to admonish me for hating on a player just because I don’t like that player. Which is total fucking bullshit.
So, yes, you’re damn right I’m going to be insufferable about it, because said person’s reasons for not criticizing said player are circumstantial at best and involve predicting things that they have no business predicting.
I could be the optimist and just hope for the best, but I don’t think that really does any good, especially when we try to have good analysis on this board that occasionally involves looking at the dark side of things.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
where did I admonish you
where it was “total fucking bullshit?”
I offered evidence contrary to your assertion. Don’t say I did something I didn’t do and then use that as an excuse to be insufferable (self-described).
Why is everything always about you?
I wasn’t speaking of you, and if you read the whole thread instead of immediately jumping in on this person’s side of the argument, you’d know that.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
huh?
I’ve read the whole thread. I did nothing but disagree with you over one assertion in (what in my mind) was a calm and objective manner. Yet you went ALL CAPS MODE AND JESUS CHRIST AND YOU AREN’T CHANGING MY MIND DESPITE WHATEVER YOU SAY on me.
But whatever, this is dumb. We are arguing over Ryan Theriot.
I'm pretty sure he's talking about stlcardsfan4
And perhaps I’m misinterpreting the intention, but I took 4’s comment as a response to all the many Theriot disparagers, and not specifically at fourstick.
Still not a werewolf.
Funny, because he name dropped me specifically
and I hate being lumped in with people who hate on a player just because they don’t like him.
I’d like to think that I’ve done a decent job of demonstrating why I think he has no business being a starting SS pretty well in this thread.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I warned you I might've misinterpreted it
My rec’ing of the post was not aimed as an attack on you.
Still not a werewolf.
Yeah you would be correct.
It was more of using fourstick’s name because he was the most recent example, but really it’s been done a ton of times before.
Sorry fourstick for lumping you in.
"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker
by stlcardsfan4 on Jun 27, 2011 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
'up' button people
he was talking to rui
Proud member of the Sports Injury Industrial Complex: We feel your pain and it feels good.
I'm talking about a player right now
and you come in quoting stats from 2 and 4 years ago. Considering that 2007 wouldn’t be even be factored into his baseline by most projection systems, I don’t think I’m out of line to consider that a bit silly.
I was in all caps mode far before you showed up — mainly because I keep being asked to point out where and when he’s going to go to hell offensively, when I’d been pointing out all along that this tends to happen to age 30-34 middle infielders suddenly and without warning a lot of times with no warning at all.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Well
That seems necessary.
And you wonder why we don’t get along. You act like this.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
oh, trust me
there’s no mystery as to why we don’t get along. no wondering on my part, at least
Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter
are we debating the merits of signing him to a 6-year contract?
Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter
by prophetjohn on Jun 27, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Did I miss where the team signed him to an extension?
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
by TBender on Jun 27, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
FUCK
Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions
by jd is legend on Jun 27, 2011 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Ichiro's 37.
How many players can keep up their peak levels at 37. He’s not finally regressing; he’s finally aging.
Still not a werewolf.
And a lot of middle infielders peak in their mid-20's and begin regressing around age 30.
Ryan Theriot is 31 years old. Do I need to keep repeating the fact that he brings nothing to the table other than hitting .300, which is something that only a handful of players in the league at any given time are able to do consistently from year to year?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
he's still got a 20% LD-rate with above average speed
i don’t see anything particularly lucky about his line
Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter
I'm just objecting your logic usage
First you say that Ichiro is an exception, then you attempt to un-exception him by saying that he’s finally regressing, then you exception him again.
I think I just made exception a verb.
Still not a werewolf.
I'm saying I don't want to compare them
Because they aren’t comparable players. Ichiro was able to keep up his stat line for far longer than most players with similar skills. He is an outlier. But I KNEW that’s where this conversation was going to go, because that’s where it always goes when you start talking about BABIP luck.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
"I'm thirty-seven!
“What?”
“I’m thirty-seven, I’m not old!”
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
"Dennis" seems like a pretty good nickname for Theriot
Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions
by jd is legend on Jun 27, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Help, help! I'm being regressed!
See the variance inherent in the system?!
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
by mattybobo on Jun 27, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for selecting starting shortstops!
Come to think of it, the Cardinals’ roster management is almost certainly a farcical aquatic ceremony
Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions
by jd is legend on Jun 27, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
He hits a lot of line drives. . .
and probably hard grounders. Some guys consistently beat league-averag BABIP, even some who don’t have Ichiro speed.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 27, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup
and nearly all of those guys struggle to do this year after year after year without siginificant slump in data. Theriot had a terrible year last year and a fairly sub-par year offensively the year before that.
Ichiro is an outlier, based mostly on outstanding speed and his swing, which allows him to be three steps down the baseline before most guys are out of the box.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Completely different types of hitters
Ichiro! has two skills:
1) beating out infields hits – he has historically beaten out 15-17% of his grounders for infield hits – Theriot has beaten out 9.8% of his once, and every other year 4-5%
2) slapping the ball into the holes where the fielders ain’t, almost like a softball hitter – no one else does this in today’s game, and very few players in the history of the game have – Wee Willie Keeler maybe, Lee Lacy maybe – that’s different than hitting line drives like Theriot does when he is hitting well
Theriot is not the rabbitty fast slap hitter that you are trying to make him out to be. He makes good, hard contact, not necessarily the other way, but just doesn’t elevate the ball.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 27, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I didn't compare him to Ichiro in the first place
My point was that hitters who slap a lot of singles but don’t walk much and don’t have much power also don’t tend to keep that up for years and years and years. Tony Gwynn walked a lot, had power, and had good speed. Boggs walked a TON, used his home park to huge advantage, and even he had a little power to the gaps.
When these guys go south, they go south in a hurry, and if you don’t have any other discernable skills, you are a real detriment to your team at that point.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Semantics dispute
Slap hitter (i.e. Ichiro) =/= Line-drive hitter (i.e. The Riot)
Granted, both have no power, but they are very different skill sets.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 27, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Look what I just looked up! ≠
I’m so impressed with myself.
Not worth the effort, but there it is.
Still not a werewolf.
Here's where I lose you
My point was that hitters who slap a lot of singles but don’t walk much and don’t have much power also don’t tend to keep that up for years and years and years
I don’t think anyone is really arguing against you on this point. We’re just wondering what you’re doing with it, exactly. Yes, Theriot’s skills, driven as they are by his ability to maintain his current BABIP, will probably not age well as he charges forward into his mid-30s. That’s cool. I haven’t seen anyone deny that.
But…so what? He’s 31, and he’s currently playing shortstop for the 2011 Cardinals, not the 2014 Cardinals. He seems to be doing just fine with his usual slappy-liner approach for now, and nobody is arguing we should lock him up long-term. Nobody’s even arguing that he’s an ideal solution for SS right now, just that he’s doing okay so far this season, shows no signs of losing it completely before the season ends, and therefore is at least moderately competent with the bat.
I just don’t understand your big-picture point here.
by mojowo11 on Jun 27, 2011 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well done.
I stopped and tried to figure out what exactly we were arguing, and come up with little to nothing.
Still not a werewolf.
The point is this:
We currently are running a SS out there who can’t field a lick, makes a lot of errors, and generally does not help our pitching staff. Secondly, said player is being defended because his “offense has been pretty good”. Well, has it? I say, no, it’s been about average at best, and in the worst case could take a significant nose-dive at any time because of the skills involved in providing his offensive value.
So if we are in a pennant race, and Theriot suddenly hits a patch of bad luck or starts pounding the ball on the ground right at people (like Pujols was doing for two months, basically), we’re fucked, because he provides us no other value. Working in his favor is the fact that the club currently doesn’t have anybody better to replace him with, which is unbelievably agonizing. I could live with Ryan’s offense being terrible because Brendan Ryan at least helped our pitching staff out a ton in the field. Theriot doesn’t seem to help our team out much at all other than spraying line drives, and I’m not sold that he can continue to consistently do this throughout the rest of the season.
He’s not a good baseball player. He’s a one trick pony, and god help us all if that one trick turns into a dud at the wrong time.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Again, I lose you here
So if we are in a pennant race, and Theriot suddenly hits a patch of bad luck or starts pounding the ball on the ground right at people (like Pujols was doing for two months, basically), we’re fucked, because he provides us no other value.
You can’t assign the guy hypothetical bad luck and then hold it against him. He could just as easily hit a patch of good luck, and be an enormous boon to a pennant race. You don’t have to like that his one tool is volatile due to BABIP variation, but you can’t just assume the variation will be shitty.
Nor can you just assume he’ll have a complete and uncharacteristic dive into suckitude driven by a change in his usual batting profile, like Albert. That’s something that shows no signs of happening to Theriot right now, and is also an exercise we could take with any player on the team if we felt like demonizing them. What if Berkman hits a patch like this? He’ll be a lot less valuable. What if Molina does? He’ll be less valuable. What’s your point? If a player starts sucking, he’ll suck? I mean…duh.
None of the stats that Theriot has put up this year are predictable.
How do I know this? Well, look at his 2010 season. If you look at his 2009 season you would say that he’s an average defensive SS that doesn’t walk at a high level but can hit some doubles and steal some bases. Then 2010 happened.
So, what? I should just ignore all the history of him being a shitty baseball player and focus on the history of him being a good baseball player? What is that other than rose-colored analysis? What other reasons, besides his career average BABIP, do I have to be optimistic? You clearly are, but for one reason, and I’m saying that your reason isn’t good enough for me, because players with those skills tend to slump and provide little offensive value when they do.
He’s a one-trick pony. He does one thing well. If he doesn’t do that thing well, he’s fucking useless.
WHAT ABOUT THAT STATEMENT IS SO DAMN HARD TO UNDERSTAND?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Again, though, what's the big-picture point here?
He’s a one-trick pony. He does one thing well. If he doesn’t do that thing well, he’s fucking useless.
If this was your only point, I don’t think anyone would have a problem with anything you’ve said this whole time. Yes, his offensive value comes from slapping liners around and hitting for a fairly high average as a result. If he stops doing that, the thing that holds his value above water will be gone.
Up to this point, I agree with everything you’re saying.
I just don’t see any reason to think this will suddenly stop happening in the next 3 months. What he’s done so far this year seems skill-driven. It might not age well into the next few seasons, but for now, it seems stable to me for reasons covered in greater depth by other people in this (enormous) sub-thread.
That's the whole point
if people “saw these things coming” then those players wouldn’t have contracts or be on rosters when it happened. But they are, which means that a lot of times you don’t see it coming, which presents a huge problem when there are no good alternatives for your team to replace a guy who could go to hell at the plate at any moment.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
So basically
He’s not amazing, and if he starts to suck in the next 3 months for reasons we cannot possibly forsee, we don’t have great fallback option. This reflects on Ryan Theriot how?
It reflects on Theriot, yes
It also reflects on the front office, who marketed Ryan Theriot as the answer to all our SS problems since David Eckstein departed. Which, of course, was a complete snow job, mainly of themselves, I think.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I don't really know how to argue with a claim that the fact that our SS depth (or rather, lack thereof) is somehow Ryan Theriot's fault
And I certainly don’t know what this has to do with what we’ve been discussing in this large sub-thread.
I refuse to let people defend his poor defense
by stating how great his bat is. That’s why.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
That is literally a complete non sequitur
I have no idea what you’re talking about, or who you’re arguing against.
That's how this whole thing started
clear back at the beginning. It is not a non sequitur. Just because I bring up that he could just as soon turn in crappier performances every time someone mentions the “glass-half full” scenario, I get pinned as the “Theriot-hater who will bend all stats to his will to prove that point”.
I don’t hate Ryan Theriot, the person — he seems like a pretty nice guy actually. I just don’t think he should be a starting SS in the major leagues, and I think that most MLB managers and GM’s would agree with that. Apparently ours do not. Sadly, we are stuck with the situation until the end of the season — hopefully no further than that.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Your last sentence. . .
could also apply to Boog.
Look, they’re both 2.0 WAR SSs at their absolute best, which is not that good. The shape of their adequacy is different, and they have all had their peaks and valleys, but neither is likely to be anything more than a placeholder at SS.
On the basis of age, yes, Ryan Theriot is closer to the glue factory than Boog, but Theriot has more of a successful body of work than Boog.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 27, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
For this team
I posit that having the good-to-elite defender is better than having the crappy defender but average bat. Especially since we keep starting other non-elite defenders at the other middle infield position.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Maybe
It’s not one of those things that value stats like WAR, or really any other stats, can measure accurately.
Your points about Theriot’s offense, however, apply equally to Boog’s offense. And, by the numbers at least, Boog’s defense is not elite this season. Man, defensive metrics really need error bars.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 27, 2011 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll take his defense though. I'll punt his offense, just like I said clear up at the top of the thread.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Interesting fact
Ichiro’s 2011 line: .273/.319/.326/.645
Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions
by jd is legend on Jun 27, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Ichi-riot
Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions
by jd is legend on Jun 27, 2011 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
2 hours and 11 minutes exceedingly well spent.
by all4tookie on Jun 27, 2011 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
I knew I could do it
Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions
by jd is legend on Jun 27, 2011 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
/takes gun
/shoots self
Proud member of the Sports Injury Industrial Complex: We feel your pain and it feels good.
Youth
Check out my list above. When you have first year guys like Descalso, Hamilton, Cruz, Kozma, Brown, and Carpenter all playing and starting games, of course you are going to make dumb mistakes.
Also.....
Young players don’t always make bone-headed plays because of a lack of talent or lack of know-how. Often times, they are just overwhelmed, and trying to keep their head above water. That leads to dumb plays as much as anything, I’d imagine. Except maybe Green, he’s been known to do that kind of thing.
I'm not talking about bone headed plays
I’m talking about a lack of fundamental baseball. Not knowing inning-score-situation, not making the right throw in the wheel play, not knowing who has call-off authority on fly balls, not knowing who has the bag on a steal, not being able to execute a hit-and-run or get a bunt down when it’s needed.
Those are fundamental things that LaRussa coached teams have ALWAYS done better than everyone else. It’s the one saving grace I have with the LaRussa era in St. Louis: While I get really tired of the revolving door of lineups and the constant pining for veteran players, I could always count on his teams playing “the right way” and making the fundamental plays so that they didn’t beat themselves. Last year to a certain extent, and certainly this year, that hasn’t been the case.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
ALL of the worst mistakes of the young players essentially sum up to less than the impact of Miguel Batista.
http://fuckyeahnouns.com/alex%20fritz
I wonder who TLR is singling out in his mind when he makes that comment.
Theriot? Schumaker? Berkman? Rasmus?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I would hope it's not Schumaker
because they only reason he’s even playing is because TLR keeps filling him into the lineup card.
You could say that same for Theriot, too, I guess.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
That's kind of my point.
A lot has been made—primarily by Bernie—of TLR bucking the trend and going with offense over defense. I’m glad TLR can joke about it, because I think he is generally too serious. But, the defense isn’t helping sinkerballer Jaime Garcia, pitch-to-contact specialists Westbrook, Lohse, and McClellan, or even Carpenter.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Odds on TLR secretly thinking
‘I miss Boog(sigh).’?
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 27, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Zero
It would be less than zero, but for odds, I think that is mathematically unpossible.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 27, 2011 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
This whole thing is your fault Fritz.
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
i just did a cursory search of how many times "boog" has been mentioned since the start of the season.
Nearly 20,000 times. Goddamn, VEB needs to move on.
totes babes
by Aranathor on Jun 27, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
It would be easy to move on
if he wasn’t on pace for 2 WAR while we have a SS that’s committed 13 errors and can’t get to anything to his right hand side of the infield.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Can you remove d-dee's sig from those searches?
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Is there a way to eliminate users from a SBN search?
I’ve wondered this on occasion
Still not a werewolf.
You heard it here first.
Clank wants to eliminate d-dee.
"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker
by stlcardsfan4 on Jun 27, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This state just ain't big enough for both of us.
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
searching
you’re doin’ it wrong. that is how many times it’s been mentioned EVER.
leave it to the professionals.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
not if it's based on invalid data.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
How different this thread would look if we had the power to collapse subthreads!
Still not a werewolf.
I feel the sudden urge to salute and have a single tear roll down my cheek
whilst i look stoicly into the distance with the sunse in the background. And then descend some stairs whilst the credits roll.
totes babes
Creditor Dodgers:
The Los Angeles Dodgers filed for bankruptcy protection in a Delaware court Monday, blaming Major League Baseball for refusing to approve a multibillion-dollar TV deal that owner Frank McCourt was counting on to keep the troubled team afloat.
...and his name was Eduardo Sanchez, and the name of his slider was Death -DanUp
by The Continental on Jun 27, 2011 11:21 AM EDT reply actions
He should have sold the team months ago
Bud isn’t doing him any favors though, and I think that if the Dodgers end up being sold for less than their market value that it’s going to impact franchise valuations up and down the league. So I’m not sure that it’s a good thing to hold this TV deal over his head to make him sell the club.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Selig won't let them sell for less than market value
It’s the whole reason he won’t approve that fox deal, cause it’s a horrible deal and he knows it but McCourt is dying for any kind of money and fox is taking advantage of that.
MLB will seize control of the team one way or another and then they will sell the team for market value or above that (I think they’ll finally let Cuban into the owners circle after seeing his low key persona with the mavs this year).
by lopey986 on Jun 27, 2011 11:32 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Can Cuban own the Mavs & Dodgers at the same time?
I thought there were a bunch of weird rules about owning sports franchises in different cities.
Proud member of the Sports Injury Industrial Complex: We feel your pain and it feels good.
I think so.
I’m pretty sure the NFL is the only league that cares about stuff like that.
by Ghostrider520 on Jun 27, 2011 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
The only rule I remember about owning multiple sports teams is that they can't be in the same league.
Although I do remember that Paul Allen had some legal difficulties getting the Seahawks and the Blazers.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
of course he does
if he said they were under priced they would raise the price.
Grit != flat out sucking.
is there any official word on what their obligations are?
payroll and otherwise
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 58
"market value"
I get Selig’s point, but Selig is as sincere, and as credible, as an agent arguing the “market value” of a former closer who can’t throw strikes. “Market value” means the price a willing buyer would pay a willing seller. Gold has a market price (which is currently absurdly high) because people will pay it. If the Dodgers franchise (which should be one of the most valuable in sports) is currently not worth very much, the market isn’t very good.
What Selig and his cartel of plutocrats mean by the term “market value” is “the price our valuation model sets, taking into account the hope of other owners that their franchise values remain high.”
What Selig and his cartel of plutocrats mean by the term "market value" is "the priceourthe most optimistic valuation model sets plus a billion percent and more if we can get it, taking into account the hope of other owners that their franchise values remain high."
Fixed
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 27, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
selig didn't approve the deal because the
Money was going to end up in the mccourts’ pockets (and their lawyers’) not to met payroll or pay down the club’s debts.
It was not nixed primarily because fox wasn’t paying enough.
"chipper jones grounds out, third baseman albert pujols to first baseman mark hamilton." 5.1.11 "carlos pena grounds into double play, second baseman allen craig to shortstop tyler greene to first baseman albert pujols." 5.12.11
by tom s. on Jun 27, 2011 1:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
selig did the right thing by stopping that deal
Fox was using it as an opportunity to scam MLB, while nearly all of the money from the deal would have gone straight into McCourt’s bank account because he is flat broke. McCourt can try to sue MLB for the team back all he wants, but he pilfered 100 million dollars away from the team to his family, and hired relatives onto the staff with no actual job positions, and now the team has filed for bankruptcy, which allows MLB to take the team from him (likely won’t happen until after the bankruptcy proceedings are done)
get some runs
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Jun 27, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
sorry what i said there didn't make too much sense
fox just wants to get a deal done. there possibility that this snowballs into an anti-trust lawsuit from what i have read. mccourt wants to open up bidding for the tv rights, which fox has exclusivity. it would’ve been mlb getting scammed by mccourt, because the money would’ve been going straight into his pockets.
get some runs
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Jun 27, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I enjoyed reading about your experience
I used to live in California and would make the trek to St. Louis once a year to “visit family”, but we all knew it was to see the Cardinals. I would get excited about the billboards with Cardinal players selling product. I loved that everyone even close to the ballpark was dressed in red. I also worried about what to wear. Good times.
Age is an issue of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter. Mark Twain
OT- Has anyone ever watched the
Sunday night sports wrap-up show that comes on Channel 5 (KSDK) after the 10:00 pm news? I think it’s called “Sunday Sports Final” or something along those lines.
Anyway, I never really watch, but I did last night. And wow, how the F are these guys paid to talk/write about sports?
After a quick, afterthought-type segment about Kolten Wong, this one dude from The St. Louis American said “I’ll go against the grain here. I think Wong comes up and starts at 2B for the Cards within 40 days.”
There were lots of other dumb comments, but this one may have been the dumbest. The best thing about the show was lots of Skip Schumaker bashing.
I saw that too
That whole segment was a trainwreck. Slaten said he would trade Rasmus and someone else for Ludwick and Heath Bell, and then put Ludwick in center too.
by Merry CRasmus on Jun 27, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
wat
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
I'm not nearly as high on Raz as a lot of folks are.....
But even I think that is absolutely ridiculous.
The weird thing about it
Was that he said Rasmus will flourish anywhere else. It seemed like it was almost a set up for him to get a dig in at TLR. He worked in a jab at him or Duncan on every question, I think.
by Merry CRasmus on Jun 27, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
That doesn;t sound like Kevin Slaton!
"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon
It's not like all he talks about is La Russa. There are actually three thing Kevin Slaten talks about
One, LaGenius. Two, Pujols does steroids and is a jerk. Three, LaGenius.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
he was HATING on Duncan
“Where has the best pitching coach in the history of the game been during this stretch?”
Azru's VEB Guide to St Louis
should include a section on the local media.
“They’re all asshats except Goold, Rains the Senior, and sometimes, Miklasz.”
...and his name was Eduardo Sanchez, and the name of his slider was Death -DanUp
by The Continental on Jun 27, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Leach is one of the good ones.
"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon
And the younger Rains is actually a really nice guy
Just naive
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
See, this is why it needs to be in the VEB guide.
...and his name was Eduardo Sanchez, and the name of his slider was Death -DanUp
by The Continental on Jun 27, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
And knows nothing about, um, sports.
"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon
But he's not an asshat
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
batboys?
He’s a bit like what you’d get if you gave an awkward, introverted 15 year old boy a sportswriting job.
"chipper jones grounds out, third baseman albert pujols to first baseman mark hamilton." 5.1.11 "carlos pena grounds into double play, second baseman allen craig to shortstop tyler greene to first baseman albert pujols." 5.12.11
by tom s. on Jun 27, 2011 6:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I'd put Kevin Wheeler in as one of the good guys too
by Merry CRasmus on Jun 27, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I've been pleasantly surprised when I hear him
on the KMOX pre-game. He’s gradually introducing Saber-stuff, FanGraphs, Pitch fx to Cards fans.
...and his name was Eduardo Sanchez, and the name of his slider was Death -DanUp
by The Continental on Jun 27, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
he'll be dragged out and lynched by the end of the season
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 27, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
You can tell he makes an effort to be informed
And passes on the shock-jock red meat personna. It’s a complete 180 from what we get now with Wheeler and how Hadley handled the responsibility. Marecek was pretty good though – could add him to the list also.
Wheeler also handles the Blues pre and post games really well.
by Merry CRasmus on Jun 27, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, I really like the work of Nathan Grimm over at InsideSTL
He’s a young guy and not well known at all, but I like his writing style. Also, he asks me for sabermetric help often.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Remember when I calculated that the Cardinals would only lose .5 WAR with Albert out?
I just realized I forgot to carry the 1, and that we actually lose 50 WAR
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Divided by 10 rather than multiplied by 10?
Hate it when I do that
Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions
by jd is legend on Jun 27, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Cards record to be retconned
from 41 – 38 to 3 – 76
...and his name was Eduardo Sanchez, and the name of his slider was Death -DanUp
by The Continental on Jun 27, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
George Lucas explains this is actually closer to his original vision for the 2011 Cardinals.
The Cardinals were originally envisioned to be a terrible team constantly suffering injuries, instead of a surprising offensive juggernaut with a ragtag but effective pitching corps. Albert Pujols, the first baseman, was originally going to be a CGI cat named “Meow Pujols” who sucks at baseball.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
Schumaker bats first!
...and his name was Eduardo Sanchez, and the name of his slider was Death -DanUp
by The Continental on Jun 27, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
apparently it was like those stupid Budweiser cruise commercials
they have nothing to declare
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Rui is actually old Norwegian woman.
"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon
blond and hairy?
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 58
Could we start an official count
Of how many times Al tells us getting Pujols back will be just like making a majot trade at the break and we won’t have to give up anything? I heard it for the first time FRI, and I’m sure it will be said at least a couple dozen more.
It was high time this meme re-entered the real world
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
I didn't know it ever left....
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 27, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Like trading for a meme without giving anything up!
Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions
by jd is legend on Jun 27, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
More like jd is funny mirite
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
urrite
Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions
by jd is legend on Jun 27, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Sounds like a suppliment for prostate health.
...and his name was Eduardo Sanchez, and the name of his slider was Death -DanUp
by The Continental on Jun 27, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Or rui trying to say ullite
Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions
by jd is legend on Jun 27, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
(thatsracist.gif)
Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions
by jd is legend on Jun 27, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
thasfunny.com
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 27, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Throw in
“I can tell you that nobody feels worse than Franklin, Skip, Theriot, whoever”, and “Without a doubt Dan”, and you have the baseline for a pretty outstanding drinking game to help get you through any losing streak. If you add in a drink for any anecdotes about how the game was different when he played, you might not even care about the score by the later innings.
by Merry CRasmus on Jun 27, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I think we shouldn't waste an official count on Al
document the Shannonisms instead.
would make for a better e-book
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Wong should be debuting tonight
But don’t expect him to last very long
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
QC
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
I was forcing a "Have sex for the first time" joke
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
You're doing it Wong.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
So like you on your honeymoon?
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 6/27/2011)
63 IP, 75 K, 29 BB/HBP, 23 ER, 2 HR, 2.61 FIP
by VolsnCards5 on Jun 27, 2011 6:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Yep exactly like that
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
But hey, she didn't annul the marriage
Sparkling personality counts for something!
Still not a werewolf.
Heh
I was the same way
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 6/27/2011)
63 IP, 75 K, 29 BB/HBP, 23 ER, 2 HR, 2.61 FIP
by VolsnCards5 on Jun 27, 2011 6:59 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Oh I was entirely kidding
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Wait
Are you my wife?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Errr.. Me too?
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 6/27/2011)
63 IP, 75 K, 29 BB/HBP, 23 ER, 2 HR, 2.61 FIP
by VolsnCards5 on Jun 27, 2011 7:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Hahaha yes. You too.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
{munch, munch, munch...}
{munch, munch, munch…}
{munch, munch, munch…}
{munch, munch, munch…}
Oh, hello there!
Moo!
:=8)
Griebenschmaltz!
Baseball? This is a baseball blog you say?
Surely they don;t play baseball in St. Louis, do they? Noooo…I’ve herd that some colorful folks listlessly wave a hunk of wood every now and then on a field of grass….
Griebenschmaltz!
and some stand around and watch...
…a round piece of horsehide sail past them in the same field. But baseball, noooo, not in that town…
{munch, munch, munch…}
{munch, munch, munch…}
{munch, munch, munch…}
Griebenschmaltz!
take your xanax
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 58
I know Oak has been mentioned as a potential trade partner
with all the arms they have in their pen. What does everyone think of making a trade that could land us one of their lefties, plus say Mark Ellis….
I know he is kinda old and is having a bad year but we would be buying low…he would still be an upgrade over Schu defensively and he does play in Oakland so you would imagine he would have a decent shot at turning it around offensively. If we could pick him up for cheap would it even be worth paying his salary for a half season?
by mick311 on Jun 27, 2011 3:01 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Considering he has played in OAK
His entire career, his slash of .265/.331/.397 isnt too bad…plus he hits lefties well which we could use help with.
by mick311 on Jun 27, 2011 3:05 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
this is the song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsOgFgc5f5w
Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter
ah, sweet, a fan!
this new album, while not as good as hospice, is still great. album of the year candidate for me
Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter
Holy h good song
I haven’t listened to Hospice in forever, so I’d been kinda been ignoring this. No longer. Thank you.
by AWolfAtTheDoor on Jun 27, 2011 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting fact
Ryan Theriot has a career 30.6% bunt hit percentage. That seems really, really high
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Why doesn't he do it more often then?
It’s not like the third baseman is baseline or further in on most of his AB’s from what I can tell.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Well it's probably that high because he only does it when it's clearly to his advantage
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
And doing it more often. . .
would reduce his success rate. He’s 0-5 this year, and is just slightly below pace to have as many attempts as he always does (i.e. generally 10-15).
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 27, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
He tried it the other day, I think
And bunted the ball back to the pitcher on like two bounces. It wasn’t the worst bunt I’ve ever seen, but as bunt-for-a-hits go, it was pretty terrible.
I seriously think someone has laid a bunting hex on the 2011 Cardinals or something. I’ve never seen such a pathetic show of bunting failure.
I just read this and am curious what people think about it
http://highboskage.com/juiced-ball.shtml
The theory is that the modern increase in offense, with the one-year exception of 1987, can be traced to a sudden, complete increase taking place in 1993, which remained pretty stable from then until at least 2008 (that’s how far the data goes in this article, I assume it was written in that year or 2009). So this comprises a stable “era” of offense, just as stable as the previous “era”. The author posits that most explanations for it don’t make sense, mostly because the change wasn’t gradual enough, and also because the data seems to pokes holes in most of the prevailing steroid explanatory narrative. So he concludes that they must have just changed the ball and that was pretty much the main cause. Then it goes over a couple studies comparing balls from previous eras and that part was honestly over my head a little.
Anyway, what do you all think? Is this really old news? Is there a huge flaw in the argument that I’m not seeing? Is the data even accurate? I honestly haven’t taken the time yet to see if the scoring numbers are correct, for example.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
by mattybobo on Jun 27, 2011 4:33 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
MAKE SURE TO OPEN IN NEW WINDOW
I thought I clicked the “new window” box but it isn’t working for me. So just a warning.
The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain
I'm on board with the change in the balls
This was a great article, thanks for sharing it. I’ve always just sort of said, “Well, it’s not all steroids” and left it at that, but his analysis seems downright cogent.
Kumar: I don't know man, I lose my touch, man.
Dignan: Did you ever have a touch to lose, man?
I swear to fuck, you people.
"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Jun 27, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Do you mean gingers
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
.....
Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions
by jd is legend on Jun 27, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
good comma usage
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Jun 27, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
My restraint proves once again I am NOT going to a sex resort this weekend, Rui.
"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon
I will not back down from my stance on this
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
oh here come the super secret veb day inside jokes...
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 58
I was definitely not at VEB day
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Don't lie to everyone who wasn't there, Rui.
"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon
Word on the street is that there was an old Norwegian woman there who claimed to be you
Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions
by jd is legend on Jun 27, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Rebekka "Ree" Ørjan was in the house!
"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon
Via Leach
Quad Cities announces that Carlos Martinez is being promoted to Palm Beach. Will be listed on PB active roster on Wednesday.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
Well, I did a fine job of missing him while he was in the Quad Cities.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
yeah, me too
I was at the game before his first start and might be going sometime this weekend.
Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.
- John Wayne
Did everyone in the MWLeague area here get a chance to see him?
"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon
What does trevor have to do for a promotion?
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 6/27/2011)
63 IP, 75 K, 29 BB/HBP, 23 ER, 2 HR, 2.61 FIP
by VolsnCards5 on Jun 27, 2011 6:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
wait, today is an off day? fuuuuuu
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 58
This is, in fact, a blessing.
...and his name was Eduardo Sanchez, and the name of his slider was Death -DanUp
by The Continental on Jun 27, 2011 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Psh, maybe for the Cardinals.
How selfish.
Don’t they know I have homework that needs procrastinating?
Still not a werewolf.
I suppose I could always do a few more bad faux-photoshops on Shelby pictures
Flesh out the story a little better. Maybe add a warlock or something
Still not a werewolf.
I'm seeing two of the games in Baltimore
First games I’ve made it to since ‘08 (haven’t been anywhere near St. Louis during the season since then). I’m a bit disappointed it’s during the middle of a slump like this, but at least I’ll get to see Freese and some others I haven’t seen before, and perhaps they’ll turn it around. We are playing the Orioles, after all, and my coworkers in Baltimore are glad to assure me that we’ll be given every opportunity to win…
Has anyone ever used Helitech?
You know, “Heal your home with Helitech?”
You know, Al Hrabosky’s repeating endorsement of basement/foundation repair companies?
Considering what Al usually does and doesn't endorse
I hope they offer a satisfied-or-your-money-back guarantee
Still not a werewolf.
Whenyiur basement's still leaking, I'm sure nobody feels worse than they guys at Helitech
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jun 27, 2011 6:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
When your basement's still leaking, I'm sure nobody feels worse than they guys at Helitech
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jun 27, 2011 6:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
This was not an SBN'ing,
it was meant as the jingle as sung as a round.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Gently down the stream
I had nothing to do with that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
why do i keep getting all these random, spammy twitter followers
with bios indicating that they want to have threesomes and the like? what does it accomplish for a spammer to see me tweeting complaints about ryan theriot?
Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter
Well, this awkward.
You don’t know what a “Ryan Theriot” is?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Oh god
Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions
by jd is legend on Jun 27, 2011 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
also because he only has one skill
and he might lose it before he turns 63
Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter
today is why I'll never fully buy into WAR
it makes Ryan Theriot look like a reasonable excuse for a SS
Yes that's a good reason
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs
"Because it does not confirm my beliefs" is a bad reason
“Because it may have trouble in small sample sizes” is a different and much better one.
I put together an evening thread for everyone. With a poll.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

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