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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Predicting Calamity

So I think, at this point, it has to be painfully obvious to everyone -- even our dear, stubborn managerial staff -- that some changes need to be need in the bullpen area. I pine for the days when Ryan Franklin seemed to be our only major concern. I really do.

But rather than write an angry rant that would doubtless be cathartic but ultimately less than instructive, I'm more interested at the moment in trying to figure out if anyone should have seen this coming. I know I didn't. In fact, I would hazard a guess I went into the season one of the more pessimistic individuals about the bullpen's chances (based on hatred for Franklin and Batista), and I still thought it could be a moderate strength.

Well, guess what? The bullpen has not been a strength. In fact, if the Cardinals don't figure out some way to stabilize the relief corps, it's probably going to end up being the story of the 2011 Cardinals, just as it was the 2009 team. The emergence of Fernando Salas as a viable late-inning reliever and the continued progress of Jason Motte and Mitchell Boggs has given the team a troika of potentially plus relievers (and whenever Eduardo Sanchez comes back he should add another outstanding young arm to the mix), but the rest of the 'pen has been so mind-crunchingly awful as to render the whole less inspiring than just about any other group of relievers I can recall seeing.

So let's take us a look into the misty moors of the distant past, shall we? See if we can prise out from this miasma just how bad this bullpen looked going in.

Star-divide

Each of the main offenders is represented here, ladies and gentlemen, and each of them will be given a fair shake here in the Baron's Courtroom of Impending Doom. (Though I suppose calling it that somewhat paints a less than even-handed portrait of my courtroom, doesn't it?) What we will be attempting to discern here today is where the blame for the bullpen's crimes against Cardinanity should fall, and whether it was preventable before said crimes were perpetrated.

First up on the docket is:

The People of Cardinal Nation v. Ryan Franklin 

The Defense: Coming into the season, Franklin was the Cardinals' solid, unspectacular closer, an aging veteran who had done a pretty fair job finishing games for the past three seasons. In 2009 he had a brilliant 214 ERA+, for god's sake! Clearly this was a player blessed with the mystical ability to pitch the ninth inning. After wandering in the wilderness for so many years, Franky had finally found a home closing games for El Birdos. When you consider how good he had been, there was absolutely no reason to believe he couldn't do it again this year. The numbers don't lie, and while Franklin might not be the most intimidating pitcher, intimidation is the sort of thing only idiotic announcers use as reasoning for their arguments. The 3.55, 1.92, and 3.46 ERAs tell you what kind of job Franklin has done.

The Prosecution: Oh, come now. Do you honestly expect us to believe Franklin was really as good as his ERA numbers looked? There were red flags all over his stat line; even in that season with the 1.92 ERA you're waving around his xFIP was 4.22. The only times he's really been effective is when he's been propped up by BABIPs in the .250 range. Franklin's only real skill this whole time has been an ability to avoid walking anyone, and that even seems to have deserted him now. High leverage relievers do not post K/9 numbers under 6, and the fact Franklin was able to keep his shit together while doing just that may be a testament to his brains or his balls or anything else you like, but  anyone could see this guy was cruising for a regression-related bruising. Trusting him to pitch in crunch time was foolish all along.

The Verdict: I have a hard time deciding what direction to go here. On one hand, I've never been comfortable with Frankling pitching in high-leverage situations, because he's always been just a tiny turn of luck away from disaster. On the other hand, I hate the thought process that made him a closer in the first place,  which has always been based on mysticism and veteran love.

In the end, I'm finding both the manager and the general manager guilty here. La Russa is guilty of putting Franklin in a spot he never had the stuff for, and dogmatically keeping him there until abject disaster forced him to change. Mozeliak is guilty of Franklin still being on the roster, when the spot could be used much better on a reliever who's actually capable of retiring hitters, even if it's solely in a mopup role.

The People of Cardinal Nation v. Miguel Batista 

The Defense: Batista was the absolute perfect guy to bring in over the offseason who could serve in a bunch of different roles. With an unsettled back end of the rotation and a bullpen which lacked a clear long relief candidate, Batista brought an ideal versatility to the team. Plus, he's been on the Cards' radar for years, which indicates to me that Dave Duncan and TLR must have seen something in him they believe they can work with.

The Prosecution: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, Miguel Batista is a flat-out terrible pitcher. The defense would have you believe he brings versatility, but the only sort of versatility he really offers is the same sort Aaron Miles brought, i.e. he's capable of standing lots of different places. Batista hasn't posted an FIP or xFIP below 4.50 since 2005, when he was still serving as the Blue Jays' closer. Bringing him in was a mistake, plain and simple.

Even so, much more problematic than Batista's presence on the roster has been his usage. If he were really serving in the role we all believed he was brought in to fill, that of long reliever or possible swingman, the amount of damage he could do would be limited. Plus, as a pitcher who has started most of his career, he should definitely be capable of absorbing some innings in low-leverage situations. Putting him in close games, though, is just asinine, and damaging to the team.

The Verdict: Guilt on both the GM and manager once again, but in sentencing I'm going to hammer the manager while giving the GM a suspended sentence. We all knew Batista was terrible going in, and the front office should have known as well. Nonetheless, you could do worse as a potential insurance plan, and it looked like a fairly smart bet when Adam Wainwright went down. Unfortunately, rather than being run out in mopup situations, Batista has served as one of the team's primary setup men this season, and we've all paid the price. Mozeliak, count yourself lucky, and I don't ever want to see you bring in a washed-up husk like this again. Tony, you're going to have a good, long time to think about how best to use your resources where you're going.

The People of Cardinal Nation v. Trever Miller 

The Defense:  Trever Miller has been one of the better LOOGYs in the game for quite some time now, and he's done admirable work for the Cardinals in his time wearing the birds on the bat. He's held left-handers to a .662 OPS over his career, and has been even better than that recently. In 2010 lefties only managed a .551 OPS against him; in 2009 it was an astounding .398. Sure, he gets into trouble whenever he's forced to pitch to many right-handed hitters, but if utilised properly Miller has shown the capacity for not just good, but great performance.

The Prosecution: Sure, Miller has been good the last couple years, but he's also at the age when any reliever could fall off a cliff, and he's looked like a pitcher in decline since 2009. The numbers still looked pretty good last season, but he also had some definite luck on his side. He had a .241 BABIP against lefties last year, and it was .209 two years ago. That's just not sustainable. We all saw at times last season that Trever wasn't right; he had a 5.79 ERA for the month of August and a 5.40 in September. His K/BB ratio wasn't great, either, at just 1.38 in 2010 against 4.18 in '09. This is a guy who is clearly on the downslope, and the team should have done a better job planning ahead for the time when he finally hit the wall.

The Verdict: On this one, I'm going not guilty on both manager and general manager. While Miller wasn't quite the pitcher last season he was his first year with the Cardinals, there wasn't any way I believe we should have seen this absolute collapse coming. At the very least, he was still a pitcher capable of chewing up lefties last year. This year, he can't seem to find the strike zone no matter who it is standing at the plate. While I think the time has come for La Russa to try a different approach to lefties late in the game now, I haven't had a problem with giving Miller a longer leash. By the same token, I haven't called for him to be banished from the team because I had hoped he would rediscover his mojo.

Now, though, I think the time has come for a change to be made. Brian Tallet hasn't exactly looked great either, but Miller is just lefty gasoline on the fire right now. So while I'm ruling not guilty as to either party foreseeing the problems with Trever, I am going to instate an injunction against continuing to go to Miller as the primary lefty reliever, effective immediately. We need to find some part of him that hurts, put him on the DL with a sprained whatever that may be, and see if he can't get himself right. Give Raul Valdes a shot, or just go with the best combination of pitchers possible and learn to make do with one lefty out of the 'pen. Lots of teams manage to make it work.

So that's my ruling for the day. It was easy to see disaster coming with both Franklin and Batista, and the latter should never have been on the roster in the first place. Franklin didn't necessarily need to be dumped from the team entirely, but he was always miscast as a late-inning stopper, and it was misguided to put him there in the first place. Miller I can't blame anyone for not seeing trouble on the horizon; while he wasn't great last year he was still pretty good, and has a long enough track record of real -- not illusory -- success that trusting him was justified.

How do the Cards fix it? Well, to be honest, if they're serious about fixing the bullpen, the Cardinals are going to have to blow it up. Franklin, Batista, and Miller have no place on the roster right now, and if it takes outright releases to get them off it that's what needs to be done. Jess Todd has been strong lately for Memphis, and looks ready for another shot at the apple. Raul Valdes has been good in relief; he can't possibly be worse than what we've seen from the left side of the major league 'pen. (Well, technically he could be worse, but hey, better the devil you don't know, right?) I don't care if the Cards have to bring Bryan Augenstein back to the majors for low-leverage work; something has to change if this team is going to escape having the bullpen sink another season. Personally, I would move McClellan back to the 'pen and bring up Lance Lynn to fill his rotation spot, but I think we've all seen enough of this coaching staff to know they don't admit mistakes easily. Overall this bullpen hasn't been terrible; the good arms have mostly managed to hold things together. But with less than half an effective bullpen the Cardinals aren't going to be able to survive indefinitely trying to cobble together a relief effort.

There's plenty of blame to go around, even though I don't think anyone could possibly have predicted things would get this bad. Mozeliak deserves some for keeping ineffective players on the roster and La Russa deserves plenty for his blind spots in how he uses these guys. Now the question is whether or not they can come together and figure out a way to keep the bullpen from sinking the season entirely.

The Baron's Playlist for the 22nd of June, 2011 (I'll Try to get an 8tracks list uploaded later today; I just don't have the time at the moment.)

"Screws Get Loose" - Those Darlins

"Hung Up On Me" - Those Darlins

"Never Heal Myself" - Cults

"Most Wanted" - Cults (I really love their full-length. Only complaint: I don't like the new version of Oh My God as well as the original.)

"Paradise Knife Fights" - Vampire Hands

"No Fun" - Vampire Hands

"Perth" - Bon Iver

"Minnesota, WI" - Bon Iver

Comment 495 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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Lynn to the rotation

and McClellan to the pen seems like the most likely scenario to stabalize the bullpen. As I’m rather tepid on Lynn’s ability to retire major league hitters, I worry about what this does to the rotation though.

Proud member of the Sports Injury Industrial Complex: We feel your pain and it feels good.

by azruavatar on Jun 22, 2011 9:21 AM EDT reply actions  

That's exactly why I don't want to do it

Shove a guy who gives you 5 innings into the rotation and it just makes the problem worse.

by sdrone on Jun 22, 2011 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed...

…why potentially damage the rotation to help the bullpen? Leave KMac where he be, where he is arguably thriving, there is plenty of ‘pen help out there. I would advocate bringing up Lynn as well, but let him take Batista’s spot in the pen! I am not sold on either Tallet or Auggy; either release Tallet and bring up Valdes, or find an-udder LOOGY, and let’s squeeze in Todd for a cup of joe and see what he can do. And for cripes sake why are we not utilizing Boggs moore? That should have been Boggys on the hill last night not Motte.

FWIW, Lynn may not be much of a drop-off from KMac, but Kyle has earned his spot in the rotation, wouldn’t you agree? Don’t fix what ain’t broke. I would love to see Lynn establish himself for us this year, but let him do so in the pen, at least to start. We still have a long way to go, and GOB forbid we have an-udder starter issue to deal with if Lynn is up and tossing for us already he can be shifted into the rotation without much todo. But pitchers DO have rhythm to to work with, if you believe what many of them say, and KMac is and has been geared towards starting now.

Griebenschmaltz!

by The MooCow on Jun 22, 2011 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

also, in then longer haul

kmac as a started is a much more valuable asset and this year of experience for him is important

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR

by sportsman on Jun 22, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think KMac has pretty much any value going forward

as a starter he’s going to be reasonably well-paid in arby (I dunno, $4m or something?) – too expensive to put him back in the pen, and, given our possible rotation next year (Waino, Garcia, Westy, Lohse, Lynn, with Shelby Miller to come up in mid-season, and possibly Carp or a FA on a $10m-ish deal) he quite possibly doesn’t have a spot there.

I don’t think we WILL non-tender him, but I honestly think there’s a very real argument for doing so after this year.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

because if he's a 6th inning guy or a 6th starter next year

(which he might be, if everyone’s healthy) it makes little sense to pay a guy in that role $4m or whatever he’ll make.

I’d rather take that $4m we’d be investing in our 5th/6th starter (who likely isn’t any better than someone like Lynn) and add $6m to it, then get someone like Mark Buehrle for $10m. Makes a lot more sense than paying a decent amount of money for a commodity (a competent 5th starter, or a competent 3rd or 4th RHP in the pen) that we have in-house and cheap anyway.

Not saying I’d do it, necessarily, as it depends on injuries and how the rest of the season goes, but if the other 4 pitchers are healthy and we can either get Carp or a guy like Buehrle for $10m, I’d much rather do that than go to arby with KMac. Either that, or pay him, then trade him.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Eh

I’d rather have K-Mac at $4M than Buerhle at $10M.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 22, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

McClellan, despite his excellent work yesterday, is only going to give you 5 innings most nights though

I worry about what teams will do to him the 3rd or 4th time through the order. He’s done OK so far but really he’s only been replacement-level and has had a slice of luck.

I think a better argument for keeping KMac in the rotation and Lynn in Memphis is that there’s really nothing other than AAAA fodder like Dickson and Walters to step in if there’s an injury, once Lynn is in the rotation. All that said, we’re going to have to be quite lucky with injuries the rest of the way if we’re to contend, so I’d take the risk of moving Lynn to the rotation and KMac back to relief.

I’d probably dump Tallet (or demote him to long work after dumping Franklin and Batista) ahead of Miller, despite Trever’s appalling season so far, he has at least been a decent LOOGY in the past, whilst Tallet has never really got lefties out.

In summary – Franklin & Batista to the scrapheap. I could live with dumping one of the lefties too. Valdes & either Lynn up, KMac to the pen. Todd is the next guy up if Sanchez is broken.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also

I’m quite keen on kicking the tyres on Mike Gonzalez. He’s owed $6m this year (so, pro-rated it’d cost us maybe $4m the rest of the way) but has sucked in Baltimore (over 6.00 ERA, but his xFIP is about 4.00 and he’s been better than that every previous season) and they’d let him go on a salary dump I’d have thought. It’s not even impossible they might eat most of his remaining deal for a low-end prospect, maybe a Joe Kelly or something.

He’s absolute murder on lefties – career 2.75 xFIP vs LHB and he’s actually been even better this year (15K to 1BB). If we want a good LOOGY (especially now Salas seems to have won the 9th inning duties) he’s probably the best guy we could get without giving up too much other than money.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

can we talk the o's into throwing in uehara?

that would transform the bullpen right quick.

"chipper jones grounds out, third baseman albert pujols to first baseman mark hamilton." 5.1.11 "carlos pena grounds into double play, second baseman allen craig to shortstop tyler greene to first baseman albert pujols." 5.12.11

by tom s. on Jun 22, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I truly believe Lynn is as good as k-Mac the starter

I don’t believe we would see any discernible difference. But now way “management” makes this move.

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 6/17/2011):
57 IP, 70 K, 26 BB/HBP, 22 ER, 2 HR, 2.46 FIP

by VolsnCards5 on Jun 22, 2011 9:46 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

KMac has pretty much proven his reliability in the rotation...

…Lynn, not so much, although I agree he probably will. That’s cow they will see it.

Griebenschmaltz!

by The MooCow on Jun 22, 2011 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

KMac's been an adequate 5th starter

but not much more. Even after yesterday’s fine start he’s only got a 4.08 xFIP. I don’t think Lynn is likely to be much worse than that, though I take your point that KMac’s probably been better than expected.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also

take your point on him not deserving a demotion, and that Lynn could pitch in the pen.

If Lynn IS capable of throwing in the pen (dunno how long he takes to warm up?) I’d be happy with that too. Just as long as Miguel Batista is off my fucking team.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...

000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Griebenschmaltz!

by The MooCow on Jun 22, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

WISH GRANTED

O wise well-coiffed canine.

by TBender on Jun 22, 2011 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

A 4.08 xFIP is pretty good isn't it?

"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker

TWITTER

by stlcardsfan4 on Jun 22, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

not for a reliever

pretty sure replacement level FIP for a RP is supposedly around the 4.50 mark and it might actually be below that this year.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't say for a reliever though.

He has a 4.08 xFIP as a starter which is bounds and leaps above what we expected.

"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker

TWITTER

by stlcardsfan4 on Jun 22, 2011 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

The issue that I see with this is that KMac-the-starter has done just about everything

you’d want from KMac-the-starter. He wants to be a starter and really hasn’t done anything to deserve a demotion. That could be tough for him to swallow. What about Lynn to the ’pen?

The other-other side of the coin is that KMac is now just 25 pitches away from the total that he threw last season. What will his stamina be like as he enters uncharted territory?

A dilemma.

...and his name was Eduardo Sanchez, and the name of his slider was Death -DanUp

by The Continental on Jun 22, 2011 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Two points:

1) How often do we hear about players wanting to do what “is best for the team”? If the team needs stability in the bullpen and the Cardinals approach K-mac about the task in that fashion, I think it would be palatable if not preferred.

2) K-mac’s changeup has always been one of his stronger pitches. It’s allowed him to neutralize lefties which also happens to be an issue for our pen right now. Lynn doesn’t have that capability.

Proud member of the Sports Injury Industrial Complex: We feel your pain and it feels good.

by azruavatar on Jun 22, 2011 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

All the moore reason...

…we leave KMac where he is, neutralizing lefties for 6 or 7 innings, rather than 1 or 2

Griebenschmaltz!

by The MooCow on Jun 22, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

If lynn has an issue with getting lefties out

then wouldn’t teams just stack lefties against him?

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jun 22, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

There's a difference between being passable

against left-handers and neutralizing them. Also, a reliever is more likely to face the best left handers in the lineup (I would hope) where “stacking” against a starter adds what would otherwise be sub par hitters. It’s effective but not as critical as those lefties that would be in the lineup regardless.

Proud member of the Sports Injury Industrial Complex: We feel your pain and it feels good.

by azruavatar on Jun 22, 2011 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Eh.

That’s what a lefty specialist is for. Granted, the Cardinals don’t have one right now, but I’d rather see my fifth grader face a major league lefty than Trever Miller right now.

I’d bring Lynn up and put him in the bullpen and keep KMac in the rotation. Maybe Lynn’s velocity increases when he’s throwing 25 pitches every few days rather than 90+ every five days.

I think there’s the argument to make, too, that Lynn’s “stuff” (i.e. mid-90s FB, underwhelming secondary pitches) is more suited to the bullpen than K-Mac’s and that K-Mac’s "stuff (i.e. four pitches that he can throw for strikes) is better suited to the rotation. SSS, but FWIW, I think that’s why K-Mac’s walk rate is the lowest in his career; I think his secondary stuff and his control of it gets better when he is throwing it more often.

Also, I think there’s little question that K-Mac is the better major league pitcher right now than Lynn. All else being equal, that guy gives you more value in the rotation than in the pen.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 22, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

I still think that we’re going to have to make a trade. This just isn’t a problem that looks to be solved internally.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jun 22, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

agree re:trade

I just hope they don’t go and overpay for Bell (even though I like him). There are a LOT of good relief arms around who’d probably be available from lower-end and non-contending teams, and a lot of guys who are owed a bit much money and who could be had on salary dumps. We can probably improve the pen quite a bit without having to go down the “proven closer” route.

As I said above, I think Mike Gonzalez makes a ton of sense, as a proven strikeout guy who can demolish lefties and whose contract means he likely won’t cost anything much to trade for.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

If we're overpaying, we should overpay for Adams, since we'll also have him next year

And leave Salas as the closer with Adams setting him up, a role he’s been successful with in San Diego.

I don’t see how we “overpay” for Bell though. There aren’t a lot of contenders that are realistically looking for a stopper right now, he’s owed more half our pitching staff combined for the rest of the year, and he’s a free agent at the end of the season. Why would we have to give up a ton just to get him? Seems silly.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jun 22, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

i don't see this as a demotion for k-mac - although he might

but azru is right. this is about what is best for the team. the fact that kmac is seemingly the only person who can save our pen is a testament to his skills as reliever, not to his lack of skills as a starter.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

by IHeartBoog on Jun 22, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

And it could be the difference between K-Mac staying fresh

and making it through the season versus having a dead arm because of the innings he has pitched as a starter.

I’m not sold on “K-Mac to the pen” as the solution to the bullpen problems, but there are a lot of pros to the argument.

by Ghostrider520 on Jun 22, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

there's also the argument, though

that KMac isn’t likely to “save” the pen. Whilst his ability to pitch passably to lefties is something we could really do with, arguably we need to get that skill through trade because we need a lefty specialist.

As “just another RHP” in the pen he’s actually probably behind Salas, Boggs, Motte and Sanchez in terms of his abilities. He’s about a 4.00 FIP guy in the pen, which isn’t significantly better than those other four guys. It’s just that he’s better than Franklin, Batista and Miller – that’s what makes him appealling, when in fact he probably isn’t really an impact reliever at all.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

i understand the argument, and i agree that k-mac is not a guarantee to save the pen

which is why i say “seemingly.” but i would, for example, be much more strongly in favor of moving him back and letting lynn start (or, i guess, even moving lynn there, if that is a realistic option) than i would be with overpaying for a LOOGY.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

by IHeartBoog on Jun 22, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that sounds all good in theory

but it’s much more difficult in practice. “Doing what is best for the team” is all lip service for the most part. You’re taking money out of his pocket by putting him back in the bullpen, don’t forget that. He’d be due a much larger arbitration raise for 2012 if he finished the season with 25 starts and a 4.00 ERA than 25 holds and a 4.00 ERA.

It’s different when you’re Albert Pujols and you’re just asked to move across the diamond to make a few starts at 3B to help out the club. You’re getting paid $16M a year, about to become a very rich free agent, and you know you’re hitting 3rd in the order every single night you want to go out there.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jun 22, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

IMHO

KMac should stay in the rotation, at least for now.

A testy Pujols when asked by @JoeStrauss if he thinks this injury will affect his future "that’s a stupid question, Joe," then walks off.

by nota bene on Jun 22, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

So we move the guy who just went 7 innings against a good offensive team and gave up a lone run

to bring in a guy who has trouble getting to the 6th inning in AAA, just so we can stabilize the bullpen? Please, no. Some problems cannot be solved internally, and with Reifer and Sanchez both hurt, and no good lefty in the minors who can help, this situation screams for help from outside the organization.

Sadly, we might have to overpay for someone now, considering how desperate the situation has gotten.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jun 22, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

What really drives me nuts

Is that we had 2 young kids come up (Salas and Sanchez) and we’re STILL SCREWED.

The farm comes through for us and we blow the opportunity.

by sdrone on Jun 22, 2011 9:28 AM EDT reply actions  

What about Victor Marte?

Is his whole schtick going to be closer at Memphis, or is this a medium leverage type guy. He’s been lucky in Memphis, so his peripherals aren’t as good looking as his ball card stats, but striking out a batter an inning, walking 1 every 3 innings, that’s not terrible, and certainly better than Batista.

by ckeiner on Jun 22, 2011 9:29 AM EDT reply actions  

He's a band-aid, not an answer most likely

replacement level reliever. Better than Franklin, Batista or Miller but doesn’t solve any of our high-leverage problems.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

What about Walters in the pen?

Another guy that might be better suited as a bullpen guy, maybe even a ROOGY.

by ckeiner on Jun 22, 2011 9:30 AM EDT reply actions  

If anything, Walters should be more effective against lefties, right?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

wrong

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

As a guy with a plus or plus-plus changeup?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I SEARCHED SO LONG FOR THIS

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I should warn that I just eyeballed the FIP table

but it looks like there were only a couple partial seasons where PJ was more effective against lefties.

Proud member of the Sports Injury Industrial Complex: We feel your pain and it feels good.

by azruavatar on Jun 22, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Walters is terrible.

I don’t want him anywhere near this bullpen.

"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker

TWITTER

by stlcardsfan4 on Jun 22, 2011 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd really like Todd to get another shot

And they might as well get Valdes up here and give him a whirl.

The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun

by mob16151 on Jun 22, 2011 9:30 AM EDT reply actions  

I would like to see Valdes as well.

He’s not dominating at AAA but Miller and Tallet aren’t retiring lefties. Maybe Valdes gets called up and gets hot.

by Ghostrider520 on Jun 22, 2011 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Valdes scares me.

People (notably at Future Redbirds, which I follow faithfully as normally a pretty astute collective judge of minor-league possibilities) point with awe to his 9/1 K/BB ratio against LH hitters in the majors. For some reason they don’t seem to notice that lefties OPSed over .990 against him at the same time. The AVERAGE lefty slugged over .600 with Valdes pitching. Why work him for a walk when the results of putting the bat on the ball are going to be like that?

I just don’t see much left in the minors to help with this problem.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." - Rogers Hornsby

by StanTheManFan on Jun 22, 2011 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeeesh.....

… maybe we should see what LOOGYs are available. I know we’ve tossed out the idea of JC Romero – what about Adfeldt with the Giants?

Griebenschmaltz!

by The MooCow on Jun 22, 2011 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

you're ignoring the context.

He saw 94 lhb, which is not very many. He gave up 4 HR for a 16 percent HR/FB rate. That’s such a small sample size, his ops would drop a good deal just by assuming he would have normal luck on homers. Lhb had a babip of .431 on him. While he had a high LD rate (23 percent), that wouldn’t give him a .431 babip.

The reason we ignore his ops against split is that it doesn’t tell us much.his k/bb rate tells us a lot more.

"chipper jones grounds out, third baseman albert pujols to first baseman mark hamilton." 5.1.11 "carlos pena grounds into double play, second baseman allen craig to shortstop tyler greene to first baseman albert pujols." 5.12.11

by tom s. on Jun 22, 2011 12:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Bah.

you and your facts.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think Mo should be looking for a closer at this point.

What the Cardinals need is a competent major-league reliever who can throw strikes and retire hitters.

Last night was a bullpen fiasco, but the pen has been trending down for quite some time.

by Ghostrider520 on Jun 22, 2011 9:37 AM EDT reply actions  

I closer can do that

because he will replace franklin/batista and the other guys will move into their slot.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jun 22, 2011 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed, but aside from Motte (except for last night), Salas, and Sanchez (when he returns)

I wouldn’t trust anyone in that bullpen. TLR refuses to use Boggs and the rest are unreliable at best.

by Ghostrider520 on Jun 22, 2011 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

for all batista brings

we could have just kept kip, wells
same pitcher

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR

by sportsman on Jun 22, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Somecow I knew...

…the name Kip Wells was going to resurface from the darkness to haunt us…

:=8.

Griebenschmaltz!

by The MooCow on Jun 22, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

A guy like Chad Qualls?

The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun

by mob16151 on Jun 22, 2011 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Qualls, Coffey, Adams, Hendrickson, Choate...to name a few.

The first two don’t excite me but are improvements over Franklin, Batista, Cleto/Augenstein/whoever. Adams would be pricey but he would fill the setup role that K-Mac used to hold down. The last two are lefties and can we really do much worse than Tallet and Miller?

by Ghostrider520 on Jun 22, 2011 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would've loved to have got Qualls this off-season

Mo kinda sucks on picking up good bounce-back candidates unfortunately. I’d have said the same about Matt Capps the year before, as well. He seems much happier picking up never-has-beens like Batista.

IMO you can pretty much pick up an average closer for just about nothing, every single year, if you just go for the FA who’s got a good track record and had a really unlucky season the year before. There’s nearly always one or two of those guys. There really is no excuse for a competent GM getting stuck with guys like Batista in the pen every year (and you could argue we’ve actually been LUCKY this year that we caught lightning in a bottle with Salas, who was only really considered a middle-relief prospect before this year).

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Remember, our "closer" now pitches

in Cleveland

2011 St. Louis Cardinals theme songs: Roy Orbison, "It's Over" and Green Day, "Wake Me Up When September Ends"

by gocards62 on Jun 22, 2011 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

yea, first bad decision

motte vs perez was a disaster decision

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR

by sportsman on Jun 22, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Perez has been pretty poor

I don’t know why people continue to perpetuate the myth that he would somehow be good.

Jason Motte has been better in his major league career than Chris Perez. So why was that such a mistake?

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Motte > Perez

also, I can’t imagine what would’ve happened if Perez had TLR as his manager when he did this.

A testy Pujols when asked by @JoeStrauss if he thinks this injury will affect his future "that’s a stupid question, Joe," then walks off.

by nota bene on Jun 22, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ah, but...

Motte has struck out more per nine than Perez the past two seasons and walked fewer. Perez is currently sporting a nifty xFIP of 4.79, compared to Motte’s 3.63. Motte also has a relatively normal BABIP. In short, Perez is a disaster waiting to happen at the moment.

"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby

by redbirdnation8206 on Jun 22, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the perspective on Franklin

is a bit harsh. He probably shouldn’t have been the closer, but he served admirably in the role when there were no other legitimate options. Whether or not you think that he should stay in the role is irrelevant because they were never going to take him out of the role to start the season, especially with the other options not being mind-blowing (to start the season). Once the season started, you can make an argument that facts became a tad clearer.

by RasmustheRipper on Jun 22, 2011 9:39 AM EDT reply actions  

dont forget

this season for frankie has been just a continuation of how he pitched in spring training
he was just as bad, but like skipperdoodle, he was under contract
this is not something that just came over him

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR

by sportsman on Jun 22, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Spring training

isn’t always a good indicator of things to come. Garcia didn’t look good in the spring either.
However, Franklin showed the signs last season of being unreliable. We were all (well, some of us) wondering if Mott or Boggs was going to emerge as the 2011 closer.
Verdict….Management was pretty much unprepared for Franklin’s total demise and had no clear Plan B.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by Dave Pendleton on Jun 22, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

agreed on the lack of a plan B

and as I said above, we’ve actually been LUCKY this year that Salas has been better than basically anyone expected. If he’d not really panned out, who the hell would be closing for us now? We’d have the worst bullpen in baseball.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

3 steps to fixing the

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 6/17/2011):
57 IP, 70 K, 26 BB/HBP, 22 ER, 2 HR, 2.46 FIP

by VolsnCards5 on Jun 22, 2011 9:47 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

1. ?

2. ?
3. ?

"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Jun 22, 2011 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Bullpen

1. DFA miller, bring On valdes

2. DFA Batista, bring on Todd

3. Trade for matt Thornton. Yes, this is probably not possible, but Since being demoted from closer in chi-town he’s been
lights out. Chambers+a c- prospect might get it done

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 6/17/2011):
57 IP, 70 K, 26 BB/HBP, 22 ER, 2 HR, 2.46 FIP

by VolsnCards5 on Jun 22, 2011 9:50 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Ugh

Just looked at thornton’s contract situation. Damn Kenny Williams for that

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 6/17/2011):
57 IP, 70 K, 26 BB/HBP, 22 ER, 2 HR, 2.46 FIP

by VolsnCards5 on Jun 22, 2011 9:55 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I'd be down

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 6/17/2011):
57 IP, 70 K, 26 BB/HBP, 22 ER, 2 HR, 2.46 FIP

by VolsnCards5 on Jun 22, 2011 10:15 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

A lot

He’s their best reliever, and Buck knows it.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jun 22, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

think I prefer Gonzalez

cheaper in terms of prospects. Unless we’re talking someone like Bell, the most I’d want to give up for a reliever would be a Swagerty or Kelly-type. Low-ish-upside pitching prospect.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

i had a dream last night

I was trying to convince mo to change the bullpen and cut the dead weight. He replied wit “well obviously our bullpen has had some issues but it’ll right itself.”

Also lets have an over/under for how many times tlr says “it was just one of those days.” I know TLR is loyal to his vets but something has to be done. I think about what our record could be right now if we had even a decent bullpen.

Follow me on twitter: @SphericalPuma

by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jun 22, 2011 9:48 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

What about a guy like Hideki Okajeia(sp)

I think he’d be effective during a stretch run

The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun

by mob16151 on Jun 22, 2011 9:59 AM EDT reply actions  

Last night, ugh

PHML

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jun 22, 2011 10:10 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Am I the only one

who thinks that most of our Bullpen problems could be solved internally? I mean, Motte’s still an okay pitcher, right?

1. DFA Franklin and Batista
2. Call up Boggs and Lynn
3. Lynn/Boggs as the long men
4. Motte/Sanchez as the setup men
5. Salas as closer

Then the only thing we’re really missing is a decent LOOGY. Boggs, Lynn, Sanchez, and Salas are all young guys who still have potential. I’m not convinced yet that Motte’s really bad… some nights he’s lights out. I like the idea of giving Lynn bullpen work to get him acclimated to ML pitching… worked for Wainwright, right?

Am I wrong here?

Has anyone really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

by Vindicator9000 on Jun 22, 2011 10:17 AM EDT reply actions  

And Cleto looks

like he has at least some potential too. At least he’s throwing 100mph and is capable of movement.

Has anyone really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

by Vindicator9000 on Jun 22, 2011 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Cleto definitely has potential but he has no business facing major-league hitters yet.

His slider isn’t consistent enough and 100 MPH is hittable when you know it is coming.

by Ghostrider520 on Jun 22, 2011 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yep....

…he should be in Springfield – or maybe he’;s moore of a Shelbyville kind of guy…

Griebenschmaltz!

by The MooCow on Jun 22, 2011 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Cleto is about as raw as you can get right now.

"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby

by redbirdnation8206 on Jun 22, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Boggs is already up but TLR is anti-Boggs or something.

Sanchez is hurt so there needs to be someone to fill that void until he returns.

by Ghostrider520 on Jun 22, 2011 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Shelby Miller lol?

I’m a big fan of giving opportunities to young guys with potential over allegedly crafty veterans who can’t get it done.

Has anyone really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

by Vindicator9000 on Jun 22, 2011 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would not mind Miller

making the ol’ Wainwright ’06 move this season.

by stlfan on Jun 22, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nonononononononononononoonononononononononononononono

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Because he's one of the best prospects in baseball currently succeeding at starting

If you put him in the bullpen and he’s successful, it’s far too tempting to keep him there, which hamstrings his value (Chapman, Neftali Feliz, Jonathon Papelbon, Joba Chamberlain kinda)

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

(scribbles 'Tony La Russa' on dotted line while laughing manaically)

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our close rooms...the game of ball is glorious." Whitman

by pattimagee on Jun 22, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shelby ain't done baking yet...

….leave him alone and let him braise: the pop-up timer will let us know when he’s ready, and when he is it won’t be for no bullpen.

Griebenschmaltz!

by The MooCow on Jun 22, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

But the Cardinals' brass

has shown in the past that it will allow people to make the move from the bullpen to the starting rotation. They have shown it with a young near-rookie in Wainwright. They have shown it with a timeless veteran in Looper. They have shown it with a young veteran in McClellan. TLR, Duncan, et al. haven’t just used one type of pitcher to move to the rotation from the pen.

Plus, a ton of the best pitchers in baseball history helped out in the pen their first stint in the majors and still did a fantastic job in a transition to the rotation after that to be incredible there.

by stlfan on Jun 22, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Why have Shelby pitch 30 innings in the Major Leagues

Rather than another 110 in the minors? His biggest problem is the effectiveness of his offspeed offerings, which he won’t be throwing in the bullpen

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd rather he not throw 190 innings this season.

"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Jun 22, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

I was just throwing out a random number

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

You and your numbers

"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Jun 22, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Now that argument was the only one that really made sense to me before I posted

He has a great moving fastball, which can be effective in the pen. I agree that it would be more difficult for him to get work on the offspeed offerings, but who better to teach him than Duncan, as long as Shelby expresses an interest in improving his “stuff?”

by stlfan on Jun 22, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with rui on this one

If he comes up and still works on his offspeed there is a chance he gets rocked and either loses confidence or just goes back to throwing his fastball. IMO he needs to work on his secondary pitches in the minors to maximize his value in the future.

by hittmeier on Jun 22, 2011 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Even if the opportunity cost

is missing the playoffs this season?

by stlfan on Jun 22, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think that you could better allocate your resources

I think it would be better to trade for a reliever than to use your best prospect as that reliever

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

One year early? Sure, who gives a fuck.

"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Jun 22, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

GMs, mostly

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

they should stick to building crappy trucks.

"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Jun 22, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

What about a Sept callup as a cameo reliever?

"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Jun 22, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

If he's in Memphis by then and is likely to compete for a Major League job next year

Maybe, I guess

I’d still rather have him be working on offspeed stuff and get more innings

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

I understand your logic here, but

we are, at this point, a pretty decent ballclub with a very identifiable flaw in the shitty bullpen that we are forced to trot out there. If we can make this team better by putting Shelby in the ‘pen, then I’m all for it. That’s what he’s there for. To make the Cardinals better. Hell, he’s going to be on an innings limit to a point this year anyway, and by all accounts, his secondary stuff is already above avearage.

If this team is still in contention at the all star break, I think I would inquire about bringing Shelby to the big club.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jun 22, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Why is that our best option?

It is certainly AN option, but to me, the negatives outweigh the positives.

Bullpen arms are fairly cheap. Why not just trade a C-level prospect for a decent 7th inning guy?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, I'm fine with that too.

Maybe try to trade Hamilton or Anderson for something decent?

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jun 22, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fine by me

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

the all star break is in less than three weeks. we better be in fucking contention still

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

by IHeartBoog on Jun 22, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why not make him a cameo starter instead?

And move K-Mac to the bullpen, where he’ll likely be in the playoffs should we get there.

That would make far more sense, imo.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jun 22, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well..

assuming Sanchez comes back ok we have a pretty good pen of Salas, Sanchez, Boggs and Motte. I don’t think our 5th guy in the pen will cost us the playoffs. Unless that 5th guy is Batista and he uses him like a setup man.

by hittmeier on Jun 22, 2011 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Because his 30 innings in the majors

would have value to the big club this season.

His 110 IP in the minors (or whatever) would have no value to the club. And move him 80 IP closer to the inevitable surgery.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 22, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

wat

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kid can pitch now. . .

don’t waste his IP (of which every pitcher has a limited number – shame that number isn’t tattooed somewhere on their arm) in the minors.

The big league club has a need.

Get him up here.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 22, 2011 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

His offspeed stuff is probably not major league ready

He would not be able to work on his offspeed stuff while pitching in the Majors

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree

His breaking ball is major league ready. His change-up needs some work yet, but it’s still an effective pitch when thrown coming off his fastball.

I don’t want him up and in the bullpen. If he comes up, he should be starting. In which case, it makes no sense to call him up this season until at least September, when he’s had a chance to blow away more AA hitters for 2 more months.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jun 22, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you're thinking about this in the FO

don’t you start to limit his innings and extend a couple of days between starts during the next couple of months? I certainly would.

I don’t think Tony would want to do this after the whole Ankiel debacle, so it’s probably a moot point.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jun 22, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

worked for Wainwright

I mean, dude can really hold his whiskey now

by STLRegalia on Jun 22, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dunno, Wainwright was probably a more developed drinker at 15 than we remember

Most 15 year olds don’t have whiskey-calibur metabolism or tolerance. I say it’s better to let them get some work in with gentler stuff like light beer and watered down wine.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jun 22, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do they still make Zima?

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jun 22, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

No idea.

Haven’t had one since high school… Er, I mean when I turned 21.

Stupid UCL's.

by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Jun 22, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nope. Zo Zad.

"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Jun 22, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not in the U.S. anyway

Apparently they still make it for the Japanese market.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jun 22, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or so Wikipedia says

Yes, I actually got curious enough about Zima to look it up.

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jun 22, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is probably my all-time favourite inappropriate VEB analogy.

and, FWIW google chrome, FUCK YOU and your transatlantic anti-superfluous-U’s fascism. I will spell it “favourite” if I damn well like, and your little wiggly red underlining will not deter me.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

you can change it

by right-clicking on the squiggly line and going to spell checker options

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter

by prophetjohn on Jun 22, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

In all likelihood?

Based on what? Its a risk, sure, but from time immemorial that is how guys have been broken into the big leagues.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 22, 2011 1:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Yeah. . .

and some day future generations will laugh at us for not having invented jet packs yet. What’s yer point?

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 22, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

That just because people always did it doesn't mean it's a good idea?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

So this argument makes sense, how?

Everyone always A.

Everyone always B.

A is stupid.

Therefore B is stupid.

How dare you attempt to rebut my fallacy with your own!

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 22, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

No fallacy in my argument

You’re making the argument that since people always did this, then it’s okay if we do it to Shelby

I’m saying that just because people always did it, doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to do now

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

appeal to tradition!

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter

by prophetjohn on Jun 22, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

And it usually bites them in the ass

See, Jenry Meija.

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Jun 22, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll see your Jenry Mejia

and raise you an Adam Wainwright and Dan Haren.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 22, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dan Haren didn't start off in the pen

And he was 23.

Wainwright is the exception that proves that rule (/TPG’d).

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Jun 22, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

How many exceptions. . .

does it take to disprove the rule?

Nolan Ryan, Steve Carlton, Pedro Martinez, Curt Schilling, David Cone, Gaylord Perry, Phil Neikro were all pretty good pitchers who spent significant portions of their first year or three in the bullpen.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 22, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

He didn't start off in the pen, but made 14 starts as a 22 year old.

His age 23 season (2004) he started five games and came out of the pen nine times.

"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Jun 22, 2011 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wainwright was more or less MLB-ready when he came up in the bullpen

Shelby still needs to dot some i’s and cross some t’s in AA, and make a few starts in AAA. I’d rather see him come up to start then put him in relief, personally, and both those options are <<<<<<leaving him in the minors until 2012.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's exactly what I thought

I feel like if we’re going to lose, it’s better to lose with young guys with potential instead of washed up vets. At least the young guys might get something out of it.

Has anyone really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

by Vindicator9000 on Jun 22, 2011 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't get

why TLR is so anti-Boggs. He blows one save and has hardly been used in a high-leverage situation since. He should have been in to start the 8th last night.

by egc80 on Jun 22, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Boggs is up dude...

although you wouldn’t know it, would you?

by goodymobb on Jun 22, 2011 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't realize it

You’d think TLR locked him in the clubhouse with some VeggieTales videos and told him to be good.

Has anyone really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

by Vindicator9000 on Jun 22, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Is there a reason people are so high on Valdes?

Other than the fact that his name isn’t Tallet or Miller?

by Kind_Al on Jun 22, 2011 10:21 AM EDT reply actions  

He had impressive numbers, at least in terms of K/BB ratio, against lefties last year for the Mets

I think he had something like 20 K’s to 2 BBs. Small sample size, but suggests he might be good if he’s ONLY used vs lefties.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Poor Skip

all set up to be the hero again in Albert’s absence and the BP blows it

by STLRegalia on Jun 22, 2011 10:23 AM EDT reply actions  

poor skip?

Poor McClellan. Great start. People had the game checked off as a lost once they seen that it was McClellan vs. Halladay. He has the game in hand. And now people are wanting him to lose his job to fix the bullpen.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jun 22, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, i didn't think it was going to be that close

but kmac was outstanding
real shame

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 56

by d-dee on Jun 22, 2011 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yep

I wasn’t happy when I saw Miller warming up in the bull pen last night

bollocks

by SecondHalfMatt on Jun 22, 2011 4:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I hope that doesn't get lost in the shadow of the mushroom cloud lingering over the bullpen

I want to keep banging this drum: the Phillies ran 2 switches and I think 4 lefties out there against him, and KMac eats lefties up. He had them pretty much shut down last night.

A testy Pujols when asked by @JoeStrauss if he thinks this injury will affect his future "that’s a stupid question, Joe," then walks off.

by nota bene on Jun 22, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

ouch

MLB video highlight entitled: Must C: Collapse. Cardinals bullpen implodes

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 56

by d-dee on Jun 22, 2011 10:43 AM EDT reply actions  

I made the worst kind of mistake this morning

Trying to cut my own hair before I drank any coffee. I was shaving it to a #5 and it got clogged. So I took off the guard to clean it and then resumed cutting my hair. I made the grave mistake of shaving a 3 inch line into the back of my head. I was forced to shave the rest of the back the head and now I look like a Marine.

by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 22, 2011 10:45 AM EDT reply actions  

Shave the whole thing.

The Roger Dean Project was swell while it lasted.

by a fink on Jun 22, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

God No

Every person that knows me has laughed at me instantly

by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 22, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

I find it much more effective, though more expensive

to have an attractive woman with an electric shaver rub herself against me every 5 or 6 weeks.

by sdrone on Jun 22, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

I like to find...

…a nice, scratchy post to rub up against from time to time, especially after I’m done with my salt lick.

;=*)

Griebenschmaltz!

by The MooCow on Jun 22, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions   3 recs

Lefty's AA/AAA

Nick Additon
Raul Valdes
Rich Rundles
Sam Freeman
Nick Greenwood

Nothing to inspire confidence really.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jun 22, 2011 10:59 AM EDT reply actions  

I think Sam Freeman's the best choice out of all of them

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

He was on Cheers, right?

Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions

by jd is legend on Jun 22, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

that was Malone

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 22, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sam Malone retired years ago. He's a bartender in Boston now.

“Sam Malone” is a pretty clever name for a womanizer. If you take away the first letter of each, it says “am alone”.

I’m not sure what to make of the “S” and “M” though…

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jun 22, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

actually,

It was Sam ‘Mayday’ Malone. I found it interesting that they never elaborated on how he got the ‘Mayday’.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 22, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

really? I thought he was a relief pitcher.

and that’s where it came from. But I’m not going to dispute it. Been too long since I watched it.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 22, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wikipedia says he was a relief pitcher

(Yes, I’ve bothered to look up Sam Malone and Zima on Wikipedia in the same day. VEB, I can’t quit you.)

The very symbol, the outward and visible expression of the drive, and push, and rush and struggle of the raging, tearing, booming nineteenth century! -- Mark Twain

by mattybobo on Jun 22, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

He was a reliever.

And I believe Coach explained his nickname was b/c he was only brought in when the manager was saying Mayday. So, like, Mikel Cleto last night.

"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Jun 22, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Look at Additon's stats.

That inspires confidence in me…unfortunately, I don’t think he’s ready for MLB yet, he’s still figuring out AAA. He has taken a little bit of a learning curve (1/2 a year to a year) at each level, but he’s still just 23 and in AAA!

by stlfan on Jun 22, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well

a learning curve in MLB for Addition can’t be any worse than Tallet.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jun 22, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

perhaps he'd be a good...addition?

that was terrible and predictable

WANTED: A new signature. Please feel free to suggest something to go here because I'm bad at creativity.
"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11

by hr on Jun 22, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Somebody liked my play on words? What a relief!

WANTED: A new signature. Please feel free to suggest something to go here because I'm bad at creativity.
"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11

by hr on Jun 22, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, now you've done it!

I was done with this subthread but with that remark you’re just forcing me to continue. I was nearly a Freeman

WANTED: A new signature. Please feel free to suggest something to go here because I'm bad at creativity.
"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11

by hr on Jun 22, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Do you think Tyler Greene would appreciate this subthread?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m sure he’d get a Greenwood

WANTED: A new signature. Please feel free to suggest something to go here because I'm bad at creativity.
"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11

by hr on Jun 22, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

My genius is unappreciated in my own time

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Perhaps you should climb the ladder of success, one rundle at a time.

WANTED: A new signature. Please feel free to suggest something to go here because I'm bad at creativity.
"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11

by hr on Jun 22, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Valdes this “genius” you are referring to anyway?

WANTED: A new signature. Please feel free to suggest something to go here because I'm bad at creativity.
"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11

by hr on Jun 22, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously?

Mine was so much more subtle

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wahhhh

Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions

by jd is legend on Jun 22, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh, stop being such a (g)reifer!

WANTED: A new signature. Please feel free to suggest something to go here because I'm bad at creativity.
"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11

by hr on Jun 22, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

40 Man

Kopp, Reifer, and Augenstein are all on the 40 man. Why haven’t they taken a look? I know Augie is hurt, but there appears to be flexibilty.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jun 22, 2011 11:01 AM EDT reply actions  

Reifer is out for the year.

Kopp is getting torched at AA. I’m sure we’ll see Augenstein sooner rather than later.

by Ghostrider520 on Jun 22, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

So why are they

on the 40man? Would we have to release them and they have to go through waivers? If they are hurt won’t that be pretty easy?

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jun 22, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Reifer is on the 40-man roster because they want to protect him and putting him on the 60-day DL would

count towards his ML service. Augenstein isn’t hurt anymore and is rehabbing at AAA. As for Kopp, I have no idea why he is on the 40-man roster. He hasn’t done anything impressive in his 3 years in the system but I guess the Cardinals want to protect him.

by Ghostrider520 on Jun 22, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

he looked like a back-end of rotation prospect a couple of years ago in his first go around AA

but then got injured and has baically fallen off the map this year. I agree that he needs to be taken off the 40-man. We’ve got plenty of guys who profile as #4/#5 guys anyway, so it’s not like they’re in short supply.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Philliewick?

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/06/phillies-mariners-reds-inquired-on-ludwick.html

WANTED: A new signature. Please feel free to suggest something to go here because I'm bad at creativity.
"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11

by hr on Jun 22, 2011 11:19 AM EDT reply actions  

LOL at the thought of a player going from PetCo to SafeCo

Must be a depressing thought

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

here's a vote for ottavino

as a middle-inning reliever.

apparently he’s been throwing very hard at memphis this year. he has always been effective vs RH hitters, and is again this year. he’s got a healthy strikeout rate. he’s got a good groundball rate. he has two big-league pitches (FB, slider). he can go multiple innings.

against a RH batter, he could be a safe option in high-lev situations; i wouldn’t want him to pitch to a LH batter in a key spot though.

by lboros on Jun 22, 2011 11:19 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Lboros,

I like the way you think. I completely forgot about that kid.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jun 22, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sooo....

…he’s a younger Boggsy? Don’t we want someone to get lefties?

Griebenschmaltz!

by The MooCow on Jun 22, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

has to be better than Balltista

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jun 22, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

His walk rate is awfully high, though

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Could anybody's walk rate be higher than Batista's?

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 22, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

...No

But for a 6th/7th inning guy who probably won’t see a lot of high leverage innings, not walking guys is more important than getting Ks, yeah

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wait, what

His walk rate is higher? Jerk.

WANTED: A new signature. Please feel free to suggest something to go here because I'm bad at creativity.
"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11

by hr on Jun 22, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't think Batista was that good?

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 22, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

me too, since last year he has looked a motte-esque reliever

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR

by sportsman on Jun 22, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've thought for a while now that both Ottavino and Walters should be moved into the pen

might mess up the memphis rotation a bit, but so what? They both have intriguing stuff, and both would play better in relief IMO (Walters’ FB might gain a tick or two and Ottavino’s stuff is more hard-throwing reliever than starter, as you say). Also, there aren’t any relief prospects in the high minors to block, but we DO have a ton of starting prospects. If either guy sticks there’s definitely a spot in the major league pen next year.

I really think they’ve missed a trick by not trying it.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like it

he was hurt last year and didn’t want to admit it….assuming that problem isn’t continuing to linger he can’t be any worse than Frankentista.

A testy Pujols when asked by @JoeStrauss if he thinks this injury will affect his future "that’s a stupid question, Joe," then walks off.

by nota bene on Jun 22, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gordo may not be a "go to" guy for baseball knowledge but he nailed this one.
Let’s recap the bullpen report card:

Trever Miller: Fail.
Jason Motte: Fail.
Brian Tallet: Fail.
Miguel Batista: Fail.
Maikel Cleto: Fail.

STLToday link.

by Ghostrider520 on Jun 22, 2011 11:34 AM EDT reply actions  

In Cleto's defense

he was just out there to mop up. TLR had already thrown in the towel at that point. Also, perhaps Cleto needs to wear himself down a bit in the bullpen before coming in, he seems to pitch better after he’s been out there for awhile. I’d say maybe he isn’t getting good and loose, but I find that hard to imagine when he’s hitting triple digits.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jun 22, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe he's just not used to being in the bullpen?

"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Jun 22, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

now there's a thought

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jun 22, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd go with being nervous/excited.

He’s young and in a totally foreign enviroment. He’s probably got ‘HFS! I’m pitching in a game in the majors! PDFU! PDFU! PDFU!’, going thru his head at 100mph.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 22, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or the fact that he SHOULDN'T BE UP IN THE MLB RIGHT NOW.

This is a 40 man roster fail really.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jun 22, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe he throws it hard. . .

and straight. That ain’t good enough to get MLB hitters not named Aaron Miles out.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 22, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tallet wasn't as bad

K and a slightly BABIP’d groundball…bastista shouldn’t have came it

WANTED: A new signature. Please feel free to suggest something to go here because I'm bad at creativity.
"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11

by hr on Jun 22, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

fixed
bastista shouldn’t have came it ever been on the team

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jun 22, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe i'm being to nitpicky but..

the pitch Tallet got his K on was a 90 mph fastball right down the middle. Even the announcers were surprised it wasn’t crushed

by hittmeier on Jun 22, 2011 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

that's not an anagram!

It’s missing an “m”, “i”, and an “a”

WANTED: A new signature. Please feel free to suggest something to go here because I'm bad at creativity.
"Hunter Pence out at home, catcher Gerald Laird. Three out." STL @ HOU, 4/28/11

by hr on Jun 22, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Relievers

They’re not quite a crap shoot, but thanks to the SSS that they pitch, they are probably the subset of MLB players that is the hardest to analyze sabremetrically.

So in order to analyze them, there has to be a healthier dose of old-fashioned scouting added into the equation than with starting pitchers or position players.

Based on scouting:

Batista: Awful. Maybe slightly above-average stuff, but absolutely no idea where it’s going.

Franklin: Awful. Stuff appears to have gone from below average to unable to get MLB hitters out, even if delivered with good control.

Motte: Solid. Great FB, improved (maybe even good) secondary stuff. Marginal but improved control.

Salas: Solid. Above-average stuff with decent, but not great control.

Sanchez: Adequate. Great stuff, but with poor control. When his control is on, he can be electric.

Miller: Awful. Has never had above-average stuff, and now he has no idea where the ball is going.

Boggs: Solid. Good stuff, but with control that tends to leave him all at once every so often.

Lynn: Adequate. Good, not great FB (too straight). Marginal secondary pitches; marginal control.

A bullpen from front to back of:

Salas (closer)
Motte/Boggs (set-up)
Sanchez (once/if healthy)/Lynn (middle / long relief)

is still short a couple of pitchers and does not have a lefty. I haven’t seen enough of Tallet or Augenstein to ‘scout’ them, and the same goes for Ottavino and Todd. That being said, for baseball considerations only (ignoring clubhouse issues), I’d get rid of Franklin, Miller, and Batista and bring up Ottavino and Todd, and maybe Valdes. It is highly unlikely that Ottavino and Todd would be worse than Franklin/Batista, and the same goes for Valdes vs. Miller.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 22, 2011 12:27 PM EDT reply actions  

I would say that Salas has great control

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

I’d say great control, average stuff. He doesn’t really have one major plus pitch IMO. But as long as he can paint the corners with FB, CB, CH he’ll have plenty of success.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

His fastball appears to me

on TV, at least, to have pretty nice movement. FWIW, all three of his pitches (FB, SL, CH) are delivering neutral or positive value. I might be willing to concede that he has good control (although not great).

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 22, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

There is no hero

in AAA or AA. The “fix” will come via trade or dumpster dive. (Dumpster Dive that was tipping pitches!)I would look to add a decent starter and a good relief man. Slide KMac back to the bullpen as setup man release Franklin. Slide relief man into a 7th inning role, release Bautista. Plug decent starter into rotation. Maybe we could pry Bud Norris away from the Astros? Hawksworth or Jansen from the Dodgers?

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jun 22, 2011 12:32 PM EDT reply actions  

I could live with that

I actually think adding another decent SP arm would really help us this year, and he’s been so unlucky (put up his best xFIP as a starter so far) that I think the Cubs would let us take him off their hands. Can’t see it happening, though, as he’s got a $14m PLAYER option he’s bound to exercise next year, and I guess we need that cash for Pujols/whatever. That said, he’s still probably just about worth that for a 1 year deal, so I’d consider it.

And I dunno if the nod to Hawksworth was a joke, but he’s been below replacement level again this year. Pass.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh my god!

Are we actually cursing the day we let Hawksworth go?!

"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Jun 22, 2011 2:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

we don't need a starter

the rotation is okay, if not as dominant as it’s been the last couple years. The bullpen is what’s costing us game after game.

A testy Pujols when asked by @JoeStrauss if he thinks this injury will affect his future "that’s a stupid question, Joe," then walks off.

by nota bene on Jun 22, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can

never have enough pitching.

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jun 22, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

There are a lot of DK57 tributes on the interwebs today, especially Twitter.

He passed away 9 years ago today.

I remember watching him pitch in the very first spring training game I ever attended. He was with the Astros at the time. It seems like his curveball got filthier and filthier as the years went on.

by Ghostrider520 on Jun 22, 2011 12:53 PM EDT reply actions  

I got to see his last start against the Angels I think...

The ticket stub is somewhere on my wall… big fan…

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our close rooms...the game of ball is glorious." Whitman

by pattimagee on Jun 22, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was away at summer camp when someone there said that a Cards pitcher had died

That whole week I thought the guy was messing with me. It really sucked when I came home and found out it actually happened.

Falcon Punch!

by jacksonian on Jun 22, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

i remember that moment like i was there.

i was 12 years old, had just recently become a cardinals fan, and was sitting in my room listening to sports radio when they played the Joe Girardi clip. sad, sad moment.

Aaron Rowand reaches on a fielder's choice out, left fielder Allen Craig to catcher Yadier Molina to third baseman Daniel Descalso. Andres Torres out at home. Aaron Rowand to 2nd on the throw. Two out.

by tehzachatak on Jun 22, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

DK's curveball was best described as "Nintendo"

A testy Pujols when asked by @JoeStrauss if he thinks this injury will affect his future "that’s a stupid question, Joe," then walks off.

by nota bene on Jun 22, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

It was sick.

He was MattyMo’s curve doctor.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 22, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wasn't that good

"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby

by redbirdnation8206 on Jun 22, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I graduated high school!

Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions

by jd is legend on Jun 22, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was 13!

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was sitting in my car

picking my daughter up from a friend’s house. I turned on the radio since it was about game time and Shannon was saying that they were delaying the announcement until they contacted the Kile family. I didn’t know what he was talking about, if there had been an accident, etc. It was just a horrible day in Cardinals history.

by ArkansasTravs on Jun 22, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well I hope we get him on a salary dump, if so

he’s been consistently lucky throughout his career. He is good against lefties, and would be a nice set-up guy IMO but he’s owed $5m this year and next, which would hurt. I wouldn’t mind acquiring him but I’d ideally like to see the A’s eat a bit of his salary if we give up anything better than Stavinoha.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's been obvious for sometime now...

Something is wrong with Miller. Either he’s got a serious case of the olds, or something is broken. DL.

Batista should have NEVER been on this team. DFA.

Franklin should have NEVER been closer. And he is useless in the pen. DFA.

Tallet sucks. DFA.

Cleto throws hard. Send him back to AA to learn to pitch.

That’s 5 holes to fill. Trade for Heath Bell? Somebody. Don’t care who, really. Call up Valdes. Call up Lynn. Call up whoever is the Memphis closer (don’t care who he is or how he is doing). Reach down to AA for a pitcher who isn’t as all-over-the-place as Cleto is.

Damnit. DO SOMETHING! This is ridiculous. And it’s been ridiculous for some time. All of these moves needed to be made on Monday. D.GOOCH

by Donald Gooch on Jun 22, 2011 12:57 PM EDT reply actions  

Mr Gooch

I believe you’re on to something. Hope Mo read.

by ridgesee on Jun 22, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

So I had to hire a plumber

I live in a condo, and a had a problem with a leaky valve about a week ago with the kitchen sink. Building maintence came and jimmy-rigged it to stop the leaking (I’m not allowed to do the plumbing work myself), and told me it was my responsibility to hire a plumber to fix the valved from our condo association-approved plumber. After going through the list, I went with the one that gave me the best quote ($85 an hour, $25 every additional 15 minutes!).

The plumber shows up and he’s ancient. Thought he might have been the owner, but no. Clearly he hasn’t had a bath in a while, and I’m pretty sure I smell booze on him. He stumbles around while I’m explaining the situation to him, but he keeps looking at my water lines and asking questions like he has no damn idea what’s going on. I called up the maintenance guy who did the initial jimmy-rig, whereupon he explained everything to the old dude in pretty much the same way that I did. The plumber then says “well, then, I’ve got to go to the hardware store and get a few things before I can fix this!” He left.

That was 2 hours ago.

by peppermartin on Jun 22, 2011 1:02 PM EDT reply actions  

Step 1. lock doors

Step 2. pretend you never called
Step 3. ????
Step 4. “plumber” doesn’t profit

by all4tookie on Jun 22, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's crap.

How are they gonna tell you whether you have to hire a pro or not. Then give you a list of pre-approved morons.

by Lambtron on Jun 22, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

what happens if you do it yourself?

also, that’s what you get for going with the low bidder….

A testy Pujols when asked by @JoeStrauss if he thinks this injury will affect his future "that’s a stupid question, Joe," then walks off.

by nota bene on Jun 22, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you go blind

Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions

by jd is legend on Jun 22, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I would just note that the philadelphia phillies

Are the textbook reason you have left-handed relievers.

We put both of them in in the same inning and they got a lucky lineout (from rollins, batting rh) and a lucky k. Last night was basically why we carry them all year.

"chipper jones grounds out, third baseman albert pujols to first baseman mark hamilton." 5.1.11 "carlos pena grounds into double play, second baseman allen craig to shortstop tyler greene to first baseman albert pujols." 5.12.11

by tom s. on Jun 22, 2011 1:02 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

So how about a change of pace?

Starting pitching!
Which Lohse will we see tonite? The Cy-look-alike from the first two months or the low inning/high ERA of late (and 2010/09)?

by Lambtron on Jun 22, 2011 1:42 PM EDT reply actions  

Jon Heyman's Potential Trade Target List - Pitchers

Here

"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." - Aesop

by OKCardsfan on Jun 22, 2011 1:55 PM EDT reply actions  

Breslow is the guy who would most help us immediately

and he probably would not cost more than a C prospect to acquire.

It wouldn’t hurt to kick the tires on Wood, Coffey, or Balfour either. In fact, if we could get Breslow and Balfour in a trade with the A’s that would be a huge coup, imo.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jun 22, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wood would be interesting.

If for no other reason than to hear the howls of anguish come from the Cubs faithful

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 22, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Blisters

It’s not an injury in which he should miss significant time.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jun 22, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, Breslow and Balfour would be good

I suspect it costs a couple of prospects, though. And probably two guys in our top 20.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gross.
@dgoold: Official count: The top of the eighth inning was 43 minutes, 26 seconds long.

by Ghostrider520 on Jun 22, 2011 2:19 PM EDT reply actions  

That's it?

"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby

by redbirdnation8206 on Jun 22, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

no wonder

I turned the game off when Motte hit Polanco and started watching a movie. About half-way through, I stopped the movie for something and noticed the game was still on. At first I thought “hey, maybe we tied it up and it’s in extras”, but then I saw the score and that it was just the top of the ninth.

by ArkansasTravs on Jun 22, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who is Spherical Puma on Twitter?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 2:42 PM EDT reply actions  

me

Follow me on twitter: @SphericalPuma

by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jun 22, 2011 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ah! Awesome

We need a database for this sort of stuff

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well here's a blast from the past.
Jake Peavy will come off the DL (again!) to start tonight’s rubbermatch between the White Sox and the Cubs. Shoulder surgery caused Peavy to miss the start of the season and a groin strain sent him back to the DL in early June. He’ll try to lead the Sox to their 17th straight interleague series win when he lines up opposite Cubs lefty Doug Davis tonight

—ESPN

by Lambtron on Jun 22, 2011 2:45 PM EDT reply actions  

Finally got around to watching the Stan Musial special on Charlie Rose

Thought it was really good. Costas was right, the day Stan passes will be a very sad day.

Follow me on twitter: @SphericalPuma

by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jun 22, 2011 2:45 PM EDT reply actions  

I turned the game off last night

when Motte hit Polanco. I knew what was coming and I couldn’t bear to watch.

Just when Miller had shown some signs of coming around (after all, he’d thrown two 1-2-3 innings in the last week) he goes back to not getting LHB’s out then Tony takes him out to allow Motte to pitch to Howard…. etc. etc.

I know we aren’t supposed to read Gordo (well, at least not seriously) but he (I guess it was him) did have a tweet on the side-bar this morning that said “Presumably there will be changes in the bullpen before Wednesday’s game” (or something close to that). I wonder if he was just thinking surely they can’t sit and do nothing, or if there had been rumblings. Anyone else see/hear anything? I’m ready to bring up Todd and Valdes, they can’t suck any more than what we’ve got now.

by ArkansasTravs on Jun 22, 2011 2:56 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't expect a move

Gordo never scopes anything

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jun 22, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

tru dat

I guess I was just hoping, this one time, that he knew something.

by ArkansasTravs on Jun 22, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

YES!

I saw that about 10 seconds after I posted the above.

by ArkansasTravs on Jun 22, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

holycrap!

I LOVE BEING WRONG!

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jun 22, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

for those who remember/care

the game developer that my buddy is a doing a recruitment video for requested my resume ! i was beginning to think i overestimated my chances, but i was told they already have several people working there part-time and he reiterated how desperate they are for developers. fuuuuu

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter

by prophetjohn on Jun 22, 2011 3:25 PM EDT reply actions  

Best of luck PJ.

Any work is better than no work at all.

by Ghostrider520 on Jun 22, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

well, i have a job now, but it has pretty much nothing to do with my career

it’s just getting me through school

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter

by prophetjohn on Jun 22, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well even better then.

Working will pursuing other opportunities.

by Ghostrider520 on Jun 22, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good for you!

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

HOLY FUCKING SHIT THIS IS THE BEST DAY

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter

by prophetjohn on Jun 22, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Here's something for you
SS Jose Reyes told the Mets he’s not interested in negotiating a new contract during the season, perhaps increasing the chances he’ll be traded.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/article_58375ca5-b3dd-5521-a8d5-0716cbbd9f0d.html

Still not a werewolf.

by clank on Jun 22, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

AHHHHHHHH

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter

by prophetjohn on Jun 22, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

CALM YOURSELVES

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jun 22, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I CAN'T

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter

by prophetjohn on Jun 22, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

towel

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jun 22, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow

Nice, unexpected news!

Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions

by jd is legend on Jun 22, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I recced it!

and I was just lamenting (above) that Gordo’s hint this morning probably would come to naught!

by ArkansasTravs on Jun 22, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

done!

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter

by prophetjohn on Jun 22, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Batista has better "stuff" than Franklin

but I’m sure he gets the pass this time based on his tenure in a Cardinal uniform and his past contributions to the club.

by Ghostrider520 on Jun 22, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Franklin at least throws strikes

which leaves a chance for a rocket right at somebody. a BB puts a runner on every time

by STLRegalia on Jun 22, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's about damn time

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jun 22, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

no he doesn't

otherwise this would have happened two months ago.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jun 22, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

late or not

a move was made and no one else here has that power

(still pretending he reads the blog)

by STLRegalia on Jun 22, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

nah, he was reading bgh's twitter feed

immediately after bgh posted batista’s season stats the cardsinsider tweet popped up

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter

by prophetjohn on Jun 22, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

HOORAY

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

by IHeartBoog on Jun 22, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

well that's one pen problem fixed

too bad the Cards are too stupid & “loyal” to part with franky & miller

Balls

by gdm426 on Jun 22, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

FUCK!

 I just bought my Batista Authentic Home Jersey too on sale, so no returns.

Follow me on twitter: @SphericalPuma

by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jun 22, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're not a bright as everybody told you you were.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 22, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

This thread is hilarious...

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our close rooms...the game of ball is glorious." Whitman

by pattimagee on Jun 22, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can't release me

I’ll change your mind with my stare:

Follow me on twitter: @SphericalPuma

by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jun 22, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

we're inured

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jun 22, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is the news of Batista getting released

going to end up being the highest-rec’d post of the year?

Repeal The LaRussa Tax.

by Michael_68_1999 on Jun 22, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

What's the record?

Follow me on twitter: @SphericalPuma

by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jun 22, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fang's got it

With 37 at my last count

Still not a werewolf.

by clank on Jun 22, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

There's a chance this link could give it more recs...

only time…

"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our close rooms...the game of ball is glorious." Whitman

by pattimagee on Jun 22, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

But is that a really bad thing?

It was pretty good.

Still not a werewolf.

by clank on Jun 22, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

29 already

Looks like fang’ll be deposed shortly

Still not a werewolf.

by clank on Jun 22, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

...sigh...

I, finally, post somewhat of a scoop, although it was just a non-specific hint, and the post of the actual event gets all the recs.

fml

/joking

by ArkansasTravs on Jun 22, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

does this mean Lynn's future is in the bullpen for the immediate future?

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Jun 22, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

no way to tell w/ this FO & manager

but it looks like it for the time being

A testy Pujols when asked by @JoeStrauss if he thinks this injury will affect his future "that’s a stupid question, Joe," then walks off.

by nota bene on Jun 22, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Woopie!

Age is an issue of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter. Mark Twain

by spfldbird on Jun 22, 2011 3:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

OH MY GOD YES THANK GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aaron Rowand reaches on a fielder's choice out, left fielder Allen Craig to catcher Yadier Molina to third baseman Daniel Descalso. Andres Torres out at home. Aaron Rowand to 2nd on the throw. Two out.

by tehzachatak on Jun 22, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hate being excited about a move so forehead-slappingly obvious

but, small victories….

A testy Pujols when asked by @JoeStrauss if he thinks this injury will affect his future "that’s a stupid question, Joe," then walks off.

by nota bene on Jun 22, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

The sociological experiment has ended!

I’m convinced that’s what Batista was. He was not actually supposed to be a pitcher, but a test of Redbird Nation’s patience (not me, the entire Nation of Redbird).

"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby

by redbirdnation8206 on Jun 22, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jizz

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Jun 22, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

45 recs now.

Ya think VEB is a little happy about this?

...and his name was Eduardo Sanchez, and the name of his slider was Death -DanUp

by The Continental on Jun 22, 2011 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

ninja'd by TBender.

Still happy, tho

...and his name was Eduardo Sanchez, and the name of his slider was Death -DanUp

by The Continental on Jun 22, 2011 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

i'm so happy right now

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 3:32 PM EDT reply actions  

me too man. me too. holy hell

Aaron Rowand reaches on a fielder's choice out, left fielder Allen Craig to catcher Yadier Molina to third baseman Daniel Descalso. Andres Torres out at home. Aaron Rowand to 2nd on the throw. Two out.

by tehzachatak on Jun 22, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

WHAT A DAY

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

he signed?!

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter

by prophetjohn on Jun 22, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

let's get our jokes ready

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jun 22, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I kinda meh when we picked him.

But the idea has grown on me since. Glad to see it’s moving along.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 22, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

more great news

Says $1.5M signing bonus. I don’t keep up with this stuff….is that below slot for a late first-rounder?

A testy Pujols when asked by @JoeStrauss if he thinks this injury will affect his future "that’s a stupid question, Joe," then walks off.

by nota bene on Jun 22, 2011 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nah that sounds about right

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Somebody on the Joe Strauss Chat

Proposed a Rasmus for Heath Bell and Luke Gregerson deal….really?

Follow me on twitter: @SphericalPuma

by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jun 22, 2011 3:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Wow,

I thought the P-D comments were bad. I just went to the official site, looking for an announcement (none up yet) and among the comments on a Leach story about the implosion last night was a doozy. It started out saying “Wainwreck quit on the team…” Quit? really? It only went downhill from there, believe me.

by ArkansasTravs on Jun 22, 2011 3:39 PM EDT reply actions  

He did quit

I mean, rub some dirt on it or learn to pitch left-handed. What’s the world coming to with these ballplayers today.

Follow me on twitter: @SphericalPuma

by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jun 22, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

This idea ranks right up there

with the idiot Nats fan I know who is convinced Strausburg tore his UCL in some crazy attempt to get the Nats to release him so he could play for a contender.

by WizardofOz1982 on Jun 22, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

The idea that Wainwright quit I mean.

He should obviously have learned how to pitch left handed while his right arm heals.

by WizardofOz1982 on Jun 22, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Satchel Paige woulda

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jun 22, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Macho Man Randy Savage learned to throw left-handed after injury to his right shoulder...

It can be done…

OOOOH YEAH!

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jun 22, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

RIP

Testicle-exploding shit storms, to date: T.E.S.S. '08, T.E.S.S. '09, T.E.S.S. '10

by dan on Jun 22, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hmmm....

Wain"wreck" had to have TJ. Interesting POV from that individual that a torn UCL = quitting. Some really huge stoopuds over there.

"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby

by redbirdnation8206 on Jun 22, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

the really azazing thing

was that someone agreed with the idiot. He also said that Pujols had now “quit” and that Berkman had quit because he was hitting .194 since some arbitrary point.

by ArkansasTravs on Jun 22, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow

Some people truly are clueless. I wonder if they realize hitting is not something that you can do better simply by pure effort. Hell, I’ll go out there and try my ass off to hit the ball hard, but won’t be able to b/c it’s not that simple.

"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby

by redbirdnation8206 on Jun 22, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

No

They still worked their magic, allowing Batista the opportunity to pitch, and thus be released. The socks live!

Follow me on twitter: @SphericalPuma

by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jun 22, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

damn i want to go riot in the streets rght now

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter

by prophetjohn on Jun 22, 2011 3:42 PM EDT reply actions  

yeah, screw the rioting

i’d rather just make that my main goal

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter

by prophetjohn on Jun 22, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

ryan's been waiting for you to say that for so long

…wait.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jun 22, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

So maybe TLR kept putting Miguel in mid-to-high leverage situations

to FORCE the Cardinals into releasing him…

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jun 22, 2011 4:02 PM EDT reply actions  

rec'd for wit

Aaron Rowand reaches on a fielder's choice out, left fielder Allen Craig to catcher Yadier Molina to third baseman Daniel Descalso. Andres Torres out at home. Aaron Rowand to 2nd on the throw. Two out.

by tehzachatak on Jun 22, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

dgoold responds to me asking about the Wong signing

“there are facts in that report that, while potentially eventually true, do not lineup with comments from #cardinals”

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 4:04 PM EDT reply actions  

Curioser and curioser

“Answer @rui_xu @matthewhleach heard from both sides. Not done. Per one person aware: “things are progressing”. A deal is not done #stlcards"

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

BATISTA RELEASED! BATISTA RELEASED!

"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity" - Abraham Lincoln

by Notorious PSC on Jun 22, 2011 4:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Just remember. . .

the last Batista that was deposed was replaced by Castro. . . who actually might be a better pitcher right now than Ryan Franklin. Hmmmmmm.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 22, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Retire 44

Auburn Tigers - 2010 National Champions, 2011 Fulmer Cup Champions

by jd is legend on Jun 22, 2011 4:11 PM EDT reply actions  

NEVER AGAIN!

Aaron Rowand reaches on a fielder's choice out, left fielder Allen Craig to catcher Yadier Molina to third baseman Daniel Descalso. Andres Torres out at home. Aaron Rowand to 2nd on the throw. Two out.

by tehzachatak on Jun 22, 2011 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Retire, 44!

"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Jun 22, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions   4 recs

Tonight's lineup

CardsInsider St. Louis Cardinals
STL Lineup vs PHI (6/22): Theriot, ss; Jay, cf; Holliday, lf; Berkman, 1b; Molina, c; Brown, rf; Descalso, 3b; Lohse, p; Kozma, 2b.

Still not a werewolf.

by clank on Jun 22, 2011 4:13 PM EDT reply actions  

Y U NO SWITCH KOZMA AND THERIOT

Aaron Rowand reaches on a fielder's choice out, left fielder Allen Craig to catcher Yadier Molina to third baseman Daniel Descalso. Andres Torres out at home. Aaron Rowand to 2nd on the throw. Two out.

by tehzachatak on Jun 22, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

wat

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

teh positons

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter

by prophetjohn on Jun 22, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

i want tony to play theriot at 2b and kozma at ss. common complaint.

Aaron Rowand reaches on a fielder's choice out, left fielder Allen Craig to catcher Yadier Molina to third baseman Daniel Descalso. Andres Torres out at home. Aaron Rowand to 2nd on the throw. Two out.

by tehzachatak on Jun 22, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh I thought you meant their lineup spots

I was all “wat”

Which I then posted here

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Twitter | Gas House Graphs

by mysterui on Jun 22, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

sonofa...

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter

by prophetjohn on Jun 22, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

loneup

Theriot, SS
Jay, CF
Holliday, LF
Berkman, 1B
Molina, C
Brown, RF
Descalso, 3B
Lohse, P
Kozma, 2b

Tried it once and they liked it, then tried to hide it
twatter

by prophetjohn on Jun 22, 2011 4:14 PM EDT reply actions  

this looks like a 2010-esque lineup.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Jun 22, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

No Razzums

sure wish he’d get hot. We need that bat with AP on the shelf.

by ArkansasTravs on Jun 22, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

me too

He currently leads the active roster in PAs, and will over take Pujols very soon. I’m okay with him getting a break against the best lefty in the game not named Jaime.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Jun 22, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

yep, not complaining about tonight

just bemoaning the fact that he’s in a major funk right now. I’ve been expecting him to snap out of it for the last two weeks but it lingers.

by ArkansasTravs on Jun 22, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't need him to get hot

I just need him to get a freaking hit once in a while.

by sdrone on Jun 22, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

PARTY TIME!

MIGUEL BATISTA IS GONE FROM OUR LIVES. Pants = off.

"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker

TWITTER

by stlcardsfan4 on Jun 22, 2011 4:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Batista Release

THREAD

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jun 22, 2011 4:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Whither Andrew Brown?

His minor league numbers look promising – far more promising than the Chief Justice. Granted, with the exception of his first of 3 seasons at AA, he has always been a bit old for his minor league level, but he appears to have some patience and some pop.

I have only seen a few of his ABs at the MLB level, and he seems to have a good approach at the plate.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 22, 2011 4:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Chief Justice is good at defense and Andrew Brown is supposedly atrocious.

That’s the probably the difference. That and proven major league success.

"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker

TWITTER

by stlcardsfan4 on Jun 22, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Another question. . .

Colby Rasmus for HanRam and maybe a bullpen guy (to reflect HanRam’s greater expense).

Go.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 22, 2011 4:40 PM EDT reply actions  

nonononononononnonononnonononnonononono

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

by IHeartBoog on Jun 22, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes

5-6 WAR SS just coming into his prime years is worth more to this ballclub in the near future than 3 (albeit somewhat cheaper) years of a 4-5WAR CF.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2011 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Uh why would they do that?

"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin
President of the Tyler Greene fan club - In need of Secretary and Public Speaker

TWITTER

by stlcardsfan4 on Jun 22, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

no

if they’re going to trade for a SS might as well be Mr. Excitement.

A testy Pujols when asked by @JoeStrauss if he thinks this injury will affect his future "that’s a stupid question, Joe," then walks off.

by nota bene on Jun 22, 2011 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would def take that trade....

I like Colby, but I don’t think he likes playing here and I don’t know that he will ever reach his full potential in St. Louis…..but I just don’t see FLA wanting to do that, plus they already have three really good young OFers, unless they wanted to move Coughlan back to 3rd.

by mick311 on Jun 22, 2011 6:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

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