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Is Jim Edmonds a Hall of Famer?

In February of this year, former Cardinal Jim Edmonds declared his retirement from professional baseball. "Jimmy" was a fan favorite during his eight years in St. Louis, and Cardinals fans will always be grateful for his service. Edmonds was undoubtedly a great player, who coupled a sweet left-handed stroke with legendary defensive play in center field, but now that he has retired it is time to begin the same debate that follows all great-but-not-incredible MLB players into retirement: Was Jim Edmonds a Hall of Fame caliber player? 

Any time one starts this debate, it is imperative to first define what qualities make up a Hall of Famer. Any Hall of Famer, fielder of pitcher, must be a respected name in the sport, so first we must look to his position in yearly awards voting. For a field player like Edmonds, the most important possible award is the league MVP, followed by Gold Gloves, All-Star selections, and Silver Slugger designations. Secondly, a potential Hall of Famer must have been either consistently among the league leaders in some significant offensive category while in his prime, or, if not an offensive stalwart, must have possessed an uncanny defensive knack rarely seen in other players at his position. To do this, we must look at Edmonds’ yearly and career statistics. Next, we must consider if the player made the playoffs in his career, and if so, how he performed in these high pressure moments.  Edmonds’ success in the playoffs must be considered. Lastly, any Hall of Famer must compare favorably to other guys at his position who are already in the Hall of Fame. Given these criteria – respect, offensive and/or defensive influence, playoff success, and comparability – let’s take a look at Edmonds’ candidacy.

First, his career statistics. Edmonds hit .284/.376/.527/.903, fell just short of 400 home runs (393), one RBI short of 1200, scored 1251 runs, hit 437 doubles, and walked 998 times. His two weakest career stats are his 1,949 hits (didn’t reach 2000 despite playing 17 seasons (only 13 100+ game seasons though)) and his 1,729 strikeouts, which place him 20th all time. Strikeouts, however should not bar Edmonds from a place in the Hall as ahead of him on the all-time strikeouts list include Hall of Famers Reggie Jackson (most all time with 2,597), Willie Stargell (6th), Mike Schmidt (7th), Tony Perez (9th), and  Lou Brock (19th), along with expected Hall of Famers Alex Rodriguez, Manny Ramirez, Ken Griffey Jr., and Craig Biggio. Sabermetrically, his career WAR (via Baseball Reference) of 68.3 stands 63rd all-time among position players, placing him directly behind HOFers Tony Gwynn (62nd) and Brooks Robinson (60th), ahead of still active HOF shoo-ins Manny Ramirez (though Manny’s candidacy is in flux considering his disgraceful retirement) and Ivan Rodriguez, and just ahead of notable HOFers Willie McCovey (81st in WAR), Carlton Fisk (69th), Ozzie Smith (82nd), and Ernie Banks (84th). If left out of the Hall of Fame, he would end with the third highest career WAR of eligible (i.e. not Pete Rose) position players shut out of the Hall, behind Bill Dahlen (42nd) and "Sweet Lou" Whitaker (56th) – assuming A-Rod, Pujols, Chipper Jones, Jim Thome, and Derek Jeter (all still active) and Bonds, Jeff Bagwell, Frank Thomas, and Barry Larkin (still eligible to be elected by the committee) all make the hall, as they should. His career statistics are great, if not outstanding. However, now we must explore one of the best things about Edmonds: his extended prime.

Edmonds played with six franchises, but only really blossomed with two teams: The California/Anaheim Angels and the St. Louis Cardinals. He started out a California Angel, and, after excluding a "pre-rookie" season in which he only played in 18 games with 63 PA as a September call-up, he hit .292/.360/.501/.862 with 121 home runs and 408 RBI’s over 6 seasons. His best season as an Angel came in 1995, when he hit .304/.375/.571/.946 with 33 HR and 107 RBI and 120 Runs. From ’95-’98 he hit 25+ HR each season, averaged 86 RBI, and hit .298 with an .891 OPS. Indeed this was solid production that was paired with his first two Gold Gloves and an All-Star selection, but, admittedly, these are not Hall of Fame numbers. After an injury destroyed his 1999 season, the Angels gambled that he would never exceed the sort of production he managed as a 25-28 year old and opted to trade him to the Cardinals.

Edmonds prospered as a Cardinal, and as such, defined himself as a late bloomer. His best seasons didn’t come until his early 30’s, unusual for a field player in baseball. In his eight year Cardinal career, he hit .285/.393/.555/.947 with 241 HR, 713 RBI, 690 R, and, unfortunately, a whopping 1029 strikeouts. He played 135+ games 6 times, Smashed 30+ home runs 4 times (two 40+ HR seasons) and surpassed the 100 RBI plateau three times. In two seasons he had an OPS above 1.000, and six times had a 6+ WAR, the accepted WAR number for a legitimate All-Star caliber player. He was a dependable member of the Cardinals lineup, always the second or third most productive offensive player during his Cardinal career. At times, he frustrated due to his tendency to strike out when you least wanted him to, but this was easily balanced by a number of big hits in his career. As a Cardinal he won six Gold Gloves, was elected to 3 All-Star games, finished top 10 in MVP voting twice, and won one Silver Slugger.

When combining the two teams he prospered on, and excluding injury shortened or seasons at the age of 36 or higher (no longer his prime), he had a 10 year prime spanning from his second full season in 1995 (age 25) to his 11th full season in 2005 (age 35), during which he averaged 32 Home Runs, 93 RBI’s, hit .294/.390/.561/.951, 99 runs, 148 hits, 33 doubles, 77 walks, and the unfortunate 128 strike outs. He racked up every one of his 8 Gold Gloves in this period, played in 4 All-Star games (though his WAR totals per year suggested he deserved 7 All-Star selections), and finished with two Top-10 MVP seasons (including one legitimate 8.4 WAR MVP caliber season). This sort of extended consistent offensive production was what made him so valuable to the Angels and, more so, the Cardinals during his career.

We’ve analyzed his respect among players and writers, his career and prime statistics, and his comparability so now lets look at the playoffs, where great players define themselves. He played in 7 postseasons, 6 with the Cardinals. In 64 career postseason games he hit .274/.361/.513/.874 with 13 HR, 42 RBI, 33 Runs, 63 Hits, 16 Doubles, 30 Walks, and 72 Strike Outs. Extrapolate that out to a 162 game season, and you get 33 HR, 106 RBI, 83 Runs, 159 Hits, 40 doubles, 76 walks, and 182 strikeouts. Compared to his regular season career 162 game averages, He was within 10 points of his career batting average and 30 points of his career OPS, came close to his averages in Runs and Walks, slightly exceeded his 162 game average in HR,RBI, Hits, and doubles. The only noticeable difference between his playoff and regular season lines is the fact that he struck out even more in the playoffs, but as any Cardinal fan who witnessed his work in our 2004 postseason campaign, or even in playoffs that we didn’t make the World Series like 2000 or 2002, this strike out tendency didn’t make him any less clutch in the playoffs.

Edmonds, like almost every major league ball player in history, coupled a number of strengths with a few weaknesses. His strengths included an impressive power stroke, dependable and extended offensive production, A+ range in Center Field, and an above average OBP/SLG. His weaknesses included a susceptibility to strike outs and the inability to play 155+ game seasons, due to way he treated his body while playing Center Field. As a Cardinal fan who witnessed his greatest seasons and his greatest plays, I am obviously a little biased as to his candidacy, but, still, I believe the numbers speak for themselves in proving his HOF worth. Also, any baseball fan who watched ESPN’s Baseball Tonight or Sportscenter between 2000 and 2006 knows that Jimmy was an incredible, balls to the wall defensive player, as witnessed by his plethora of Web Gem and Top 10 plays laying out for bloopers, making incredible over the shoulder catches, or scaling walls to rob hitters of Home Runs. Two Edmonds defensive plays in particular will always stand out in my mind. One was a play at Great American Ballpark in Cincinnati where he tracked down a towering drive to straight away center field from his usual shallow stance in center, scaled the wall with time to spare and reached probably four feet over the wall to make an incredible grab. Every fan in the stadium, whether supporting the home team Reds or the Cardinals, stood up and applauded to recognize Jim Edmonds for the unfathomable play he had just made. Another, similar instance of Edmonds magic occurred at Minute Maid Park in Houston where Edmonds tracked down a long fly ball to deep center field again, scaled the hill in center field, and dove uphill to make a ridiculous over the shoulder diving catch on a ball hit 425 feet from home plate. Every Hall of Fame player has these moments that separate them from mere baseball mortals, and I would argue that Edmond’s defensive moments are the moments that should push Edmonds over the top and into the Hall of Fame.

Poll
Is Jim Edmonds a Hall of Famer
Yes
119 votes
No
29 votes
Get back to me...
14 votes

162 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 48 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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I think he should be and I hope he is.

But he won’t get in.

"Miller came in from the bullpen with a gan of casoline." - Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Apr 28, 2011 3:05 PM EDT reply actions  

I hope he is.

However I see him only carrying 40 percent of the votes for a while. If players like Larry Walker and Jeff Bagwell can’t get past 40% (Bagwell with 41% and Walker with 20%) in their first year…then it may be tough luck for Edmonds.

If he can stay on the ballot for a few years and slowly gain traction, he may have a chance.

2011 MLB All Star Game FanFest: July 8-12 at the Phoenix Convention Center!

by mtzxc on Apr 28, 2011 5:43 PM EDT reply actions  

He's better than Walker

and I’m pretty sure Bagwell was generally not liked by sections of the media, was he, which could work against him.

CFers have generally been poorly done-by in the hall over the years, IIRC, so even though he’s probably one of the top dozen or so of all time he’ll probably not make it.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Apr 29, 2011 7:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

center fielder with power and above average defense

who played for more than a few seasons and was a key contributor to championship and pennant winning teams = hall of famer to me. no idea if he’ll get in or not though, but he certainly has the personality and entertainment value to go along with some pretty impressive statistics

free compositionson guitar and keyboards through looping pedal (no overdubs)

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Apr 28, 2011 7:58 PM EDT reply actions  

I wish he would but his issues are necessarily with his resume

but with the attitude of voters. Voters in the past couple of years or so have been rather stingy with their votes. I was stunned, along with many others, about the lack of support that Bagwell, Larkin and others got recently. Another issue that hurts Edmonds is how voters treat CFs. Basically they have to be no doubt HOFers. BBWAA has voted in Cobb, Speaker, Dimaggio, Mantle, Mays, Puckett. Pretty ridiculous company, save Puckett, one of the weaker HOFers.

So yeah, I think he could make it. I’d love to see him in the hall as he’s one of my favorite players ever. Is the case palusible? Yes. Is he likely to make it? Nope. I’d say he’s got a < 20% chance of making it, and that might be generous. You never know who the voters will decide to (fairly or unfairly) tar with the steroid brush.

Now what am I going to spread on my toast? Your tears?

by jacksonian on Apr 29, 2011 1:30 AM EDT reply actions  

Raines too

free compositionson guitar and keyboards through looping pedal (no overdubs)

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Apr 29, 2011 2:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think he deserves to be in.....

but I think Ken Boyer and Ted Simmons should be in too and they’re not. So Jimmy probably won’t make it.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Apr 29, 2011 6:04 PM EDT reply actions  

also...

I think Curt Flood should be in…at least for his historical significance, if nothing else.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Apr 29, 2011 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

yep

free compositionson guitar and keyboards through looping pedal (no overdubs)

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Apr 29, 2011 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Jim Rice

is the floor for the basis of placing position players into the hall of fame, than I think Jim Edmonds has a really good case.

But the question is……. was he feared?/sarc

Albert Pujols is a god, and you my friend should be doing no less than groveling at his feet.

by CoolCat23 on Apr 30, 2011 4:38 PM EDT reply actions  

Jimmy is 63rd on the list for career WAR among all players

Jim Rice, IIIRC, is in the mid-late 300’s. Which means that Edmonds won’t get in. [sigh]

I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson

by Solanus on May 2, 2011 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Correction

Jimmy is around 92nd among all players and Rice is in the mid-late 300’s among all players; not sure where Rice sits among just position players.

I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson

by Solanus on May 2, 2011 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think you can use the argument "but there are some really comparatvely crappy guys in the hall" to vote people in

Otherwise we’ll seriously end up with guys like Derek Lowe and Jamie Moyer ending up in there.

I think Edmonds can make a case on his own terms, really. Arguably a better argument is that he had a pretty similar career to Tim Raines, who’s one of the weaker CF in the hall, take their equivalent ten-year “peaks” and I think you’d say Edmonds is better.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on May 2, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Tim Raines isn't in the hall.

"Sometimes you scare me." - azruavatar

by spants on May 2, 2011 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Tim Raines wasn't a CF'er

Skip Schumaker fields like a goat wearing capes

by mattyfrommo on May 2, 2011 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Tim Raines wasn't even a baseball player.

"Sometimes you scare me." - azruavatar

by spants on May 2, 2011 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions   5 recs

there has never been a man named "tim raines."

"chipper jones grounds out, third baseman albert pujols to first baseman mark hamilton." 5.1.11

by tom s. on May 3, 2011 3:30 AM EDT up reply actions   5 recs

Until this thread

no one has even assembled the letters “T-i-m R-a-i-n-e-s”

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 3, 2011 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

the square root of negative one

is tim raines

"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5

"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.

by Tudor's Electric Fan on May 3, 2011 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions   5 recs

rec

"I do not want my mom to be Fredbird"
free compositionson guitar and keyboards through looping pedal (no overdubs)

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 4, 2011 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Excuse me,

but this is the best sub thread of all time.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on May 5, 2011 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

The only thing I've ever heard of this "Tim Raines", if that is his real name,

is that he possibly was on the grassy knoll.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 8, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Had he been able to play this year...

and crossed over the 400 HR, 1200 RBI and 2000 hit plateaus (All very likely based on recent performance and half a season’s at bats) I’d say yes. Considering none of this happens I’d say borderline at best, though he deserves it in my slightly biased opinion.

Jimmy Ballgame for 2011 RFer!!!

by cardzfanbub on May 4, 2011 1:26 PM EDT reply actions  

I think Jim Edmonds deserves to be in the Hall

but there are a number of players more deserving who are yet to get in. It’s also been mentioned that the voters have pretty ridiculous standards for CF, which doesn’t bode well for Edmonds, who also is somewhat lacking in counting stats, which is another shortcoming as far as traditional voters are concerned. Ultimately, I think he’ll be able to hang on the ballot long enough for more advanced ways of thinking to permeate the voters and eventually get elected, assuming nothing ever comes up with PEDs.

by kcgard2 on May 4, 2011 4:19 PM EDT reply actions  

Jim is in the Hall of very very good, but he is not going to make it to the hall of fame for a few small reasons.

1. He could not stay on the field enough to be a consistent everyday player for 10 plus years.

For example Dave WInfield, a HOFer, had 15 seasons where he had 500 AB’s. Hank Aaron had 16 and 10 where he had 600PA.

Jimmy Ball Game had 5 seasons with 500 PA. Coincidentally all of those seasons he drove in 80 or more runs and hit 25 or more HR’s.

9 of Jimmy’s 17 seasons he had fewer than 400 PA’s. None of those seasons did he hit 20 Hr’s or drive in 70 runs.

2. He does not have any milestone number. 400HR .300 AVG

3. He does not have even 2000 hits.

4. He does have:

8 Gold Gloves
1 Silver Slugger Award
4 All Star appearances
2 WS Appearances
1 World Championship

by sharpwp on May 8, 2011 8:59 AM EDT reply actions  

good points

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on May 8, 2011 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Eh, these are all arbitrary numbers

Edmonds, based on his onfield value, seems to be past the cutoff point for HOF induction.

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on May 9, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I love Jimmy Ball Game, but he was not a hall of famer.

He is still arguably the third best outfielder in Cardinals history behind Stan Musial and Lou Brock.

Is there anyone else I am forgetting?

by sharpwp on May 8, 2011 10:19 AM EDT reply actions  

Arguably, Curt Flood

also, Enos Slaughter

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 8, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

FWIW - Flood was worth about 35 wins above replacement, Slaughter about 54. Edmonds was worth about 67 wins.

Flood stopped playing before he became a serious HOF candidate for his on-field play, though he almost certainly deserves consideration for his role in challenging the reserve clause.

Slaughter maybe gets a pass for missing some war years right in the middle of his peak. assuming he got 5 WAR each of those 3 years he missed (which is on the order of what he was doing – worth 7.1 in 1942, and worth 5 wins in three of his four seasons post-WWII), he’d be a couple wins better than jimmy.

"chipper jones grounds out, third baseman albert pujols to first baseman mark hamilton." 5.1.11

by tom s. on May 11, 2011 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd put flood in...

no question. And I’d put Jimmy in too.
I never thought that judging players by players of different era’s was much of fair benchmark. I prefer to compare them to players in their own era.
The 400 home run mark is a nice achievement but not making it shouldn’t keep a player out or knock them out of consideration.
 Until Edmonds came along I though Flood was the best defensive CFer the Cards had had in my lifetime. I remember Flood being chosen as the starting centerfielder for the All Star game instead of Willie Mays. I was a kid and I was thrilled about that. Flood graciously handed it to Mays and played left field.
I still thought flood had remained the best until Jim Edmonds.
I’m a bit biased as a Cardinal fan but I honestly can’t think of a centerfielder I would have traded Jimmy for while he was playing.
tom s.,
I’m curious now, but I don’t know how to crunch like you guys……strictly defensively, how does Edmonds compare to Mays?

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on May 11, 2011 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

The numbers say Mays absolutely blows Edmonds out of the water

Career UZR for Mays = 185
Career UZR for Edmonds = 56.8

Edmonds’ fielding is overrated, but he still managed to consistently put out above average range. He never had a spectacular seasons defensively or even great, but for a period was just well above average.

Meanwhile Mays had a RIDICULOUS period where he had elite range – seven seasons of 12 or better of UZR (which Dave, I’ll simplify – anything over than +10 is pretty much elite for instance Brendan Ryan had +22 last year) The more amazing fact that he had +12 for seven years is that he played CENTERFIELD where all of the best fielders played.

UZR compares fielding to other players at that same position so he was more than 12 runs above every other centerfielder in the league defensively for seven straight years. And he had a bunch of years of +16 or more as well so saying 12 is really misleading as he was much better.

So Edmonds DOES not compare – coming from the numbers of course.

"And a boring game for boring people. Did you ever watch golf on television? It's like watching flies FUCK. Think of the intellect it must take to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then WALKING AFTER IT" -George Carlin

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by stlcardsfan4 on May 12, 2011 4:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

How can Willie Mays

have zone-based defensive statistics? They were collecting those in the ’50s?

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 12, 2011 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

thanx

that’s pretty interesting.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on May 12, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

agreed that Edmonds is no Mays

but I wouldn’t go on defensive metrics alone… especially since Mays played a while ago.

"I do not want my mom to be Fredbird"
free compositionson guitar and keyboards through looping pedal (no overdubs)

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 12, 2011 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

After chewing on this for awhile...

and reading a little about UZR I think I have have more questions than answers.
Anybody care to help answer them?

UZR looks a little involved but I get the gist of it.
If I understand it correctly, UZR compares Mays to the average of all other centerfielders, either per season or for a career. Is that right?

when that average is figured does it include Mays or exclude him? Surely, UZR would exclude him? (compares to everybody else…not the league average).

It seems to me that in order to use UZR to measure 2 players of different eras you would have to compare Edmonds to the average fielders in Mays’ era and vise versa. yes? no?
So, how would Edmonds have compared to the guys Mays compared to and vise versa?

As an aside, I’m fortunate to have seen them both, in their prime. I’m really tempted to call Willie Mays the best all around player I ever saw. But Mays and Edmonds played such a different style of centerfield. Edmonds liked that shallow center and Mays roamed more. But honestly, to the eye, I can’t say Mays was better at balls hit over his head. Jimmy could just flat out go get the ball. Mays could cover more ground and could come in on a ball better than Jimmy though.
Mays had an arm but Jimmy was also feared, and rightfully so.

More questions:

Edmonds’ fielding is overrated, but he still managed to consistently put out above average range. He never had a spectacular seasons defensively or even great, but for a period was just well above average.

Overrated how and by whom?
Spectacular or even great season defensively

What’s the benchmark that would define that? Mays was obviously way above his peers and had all those great seasons, but Jimmy just stayed well above average. How much above average is considered to be a great season?

The more amazing fact that he had +12 for seven years is that he played CENTERFIELD where all of the best fielders played.

I’m just trying to digest this. Are you saying that it’s amazing because a centerfielder is less likely to be so far superior to his peers than a left fielder or right fielder or SS?

anybody?

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on May 14, 2011 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm guessing he's saying it is overrated

because of the entertainment value of making diving catches. it makes it look like you are better at defense, but in actuality it would be better if you were faster… that said Jim imo always got a good jump on the ball, and had sure hands so that he could make those catches. that and UZR is not perfect so I am not comfortable, personally, on making cut and dry value calls based solely on UZR. therefore, I would say that Mays is better than Edmonds at defense, but is he really THAT much better? I kind of doubt it.

"I do not want my mom to be Fredbird"
free compositionson guitar and keyboards through looping pedal (no overdubs)

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 14, 2011 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm kind of at the same conclusion.

but I didn’t want to put my foot in my mouth.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on May 15, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Bobby Bonilla

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on May 9, 2011 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

lonnie smith

"Bob Gibson pitches as though he's double parked."~Vin Scully

by threadkiller on May 9, 2011 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

RFL.

Oh, what could have been, if it wasn’t for JOhn Mozeliak. and his meddling dog.

It's 7:05 somewhere...

by SleepyCA on May 10, 2011 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

fixed

Is there anyfifty-one else I am forgetting?

"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5

"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.

by Tudor's Electric Fan on May 12, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

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