What To Do After Your Separation From Albert Pujols
Look, things are going to be different now, but that's okay: There's no reason you can't go on to lead a perfectly fulfilling life now that you and Albert Pujols have broken up. You've got that big settlement, and so much else going on in your life anyway, and—hey, maybe you could take a class, or something. Just find a way to fill out your days, and see what happens. Here are some options:
Remember the Good Times: Okay, okay, way too soon.
Buy Something Awesome: Jose Reyes would have been the ultimate post-separation sportscar—incredibly fast, exciting, prone to annual breakdowns—but you were too busy trying to work things out with Pujols to sign the lease.
Prince Fielder is clearly a rebound guy, and at 28 I think questions about his long-term performance are a little overstated, depending on how overheated the market beneath Pujols gets; at that age even Mo Vaughn had his three best years ahead of him.
But I'd be a little more worried about his current production than what he's doing in the future; like a much better version of Ryan Howard, he's alternated actual outstanding seasons—2011 and 2009—with really-pretty-good seasons that look like outstanding ones because of how highly concentrated his skill-set is. If Pujols had a 130 OPS+ season you'd see it in an overarching decline—lower batting average, fewer doubles and home runs and RBI and runs scored. When Fielder does it he's still hitting 34 and 32 home runs, and who's looking at his batting average anyway?
After that—well, you run out of awesome things to buy pretty quickly.
Michael Cuddyer theoretically fits the Cardinals' needs; he's an above-average hitter whose bat plays in the outfield and who can stand at third when David Freese is hurt and second when Daniel Descalso is overmatched. But he'll be 33 next year and the rumored offers for his services stretch as high, already, as three years and $24 million, and unless the Cardinals' internal defensive metrics differ significantly from Total Zone, DRS, and UZR he's also a five to 15-run liability at every position he plays.
Aramis Ramirez looks way too much like your ex and it would make you sad.
Go Traveling: The last big free agent pitcher is Yu Darvish, whose final posting bid is impossible to predict—he's better than Daisuke Matsuzaka, but he also comes after Matsuzaka disappointed in Boston. You probably aren't interested, but in a world where Mark Buehrle's getting $60 million and skepticism of Japanese pitchers is at a recent high he might end up a relative bargain; if they're bent on trading up on Lohse, I'd rather you in on Darvish, 25 and coming off a 1.44 ERA, 12 K/9, and 7.67 K:BB, than any of the domestic pitchers.
In the outfield, Norichika Aoki began his career as Ichiro's replacement as Japan's top brash, undersized, slap-hitting outfielder, hitting .358/.435/.509 in 2010 before struggling with the rest of the league to adjust to the new ball in 2011. He's expected to be posted, too, but the Cardinals would have to be extremely confident in his ability to outhit Jon Jay to make a bid.
Meanwhile, in balmy Cuba: Yoenis Cespedes went viral after this truly hilarious movie trailer featuring a Star Wars crawl and Christopher Cross showed up on the internet. Expected to get Aroldis Chapman money, Cespedes would certainly be the most fun of all the Cardinals' various options—he's a burly-looking center fielder with great speed and one of those trying-to-kill-the-pitcher swings, and since we don't know what he could actually do in the Major Leagues we're able to imagine it. 50 home runs! And after each one, Christopher Cross's "Ride Like The Wind"! (Bless You Boys, our Tigers sister-blog, did a nice post about Cespedes, if you're interested.)
The Yankees just spent $2 million on Hiroyuki Nakajima's rights, which is too bad—he was, along with the unspectacular Tsuyoshi Nishioka, one of the big Japanese middle infielders of last year's posting season, and his low winning bid comes as a bit of a surprise to me.
Worst yet, the Yankees aren't even that interested—his low winning bid also apparently came as a bit of a surprise to them. If they trade him, as Buster Olney suggested, he'd be worth a look, but he's an odd fit as an American middle infielder—a defensive tweener with a little power and a lot of strikeouts, and, if you do a straight conversion of his offensive numbers, a poor man's Kaz Matsui or Tadahito Iguchi whose power numbers should probably be questioned. He wouldn't displace Tyler Greene and Daniel Descalso so much as emerge as the best part of a three-way middle infield platoon.
Pretend Nothing Happened: Hey, you were active in the Rule 5 draft!
This year's pick is Erik Komatsu, an underpowered outfield tweener whose numbers in the minor leagues will remind you a lot of Jon Jay's—.277/.367/.382 last year as a 23-year-old in AA, .323/.413/.422 in the pitcher-friendly FSL the year before. (When he was 23 Jay was hitting .312/.382/.465 in the hitter-friendlier Texas and Pacific Coast Leagues; at 22 Komatsu has the edge.)
Komatsu looks more likely to run and, according to some scouts, less likely to stick in center field, and if he were right-handed he'd make a nice platoon partner for Jon Jay. Unfortunately, he's left-handed, so he's just an unproven clone of Jon Jay. I'd rather keep him around for free than promote Adron Chambers, but as a fifth outfielder he's very much a fifth outfielder, and the solution neither to lingering worries about Jay nor Allen Craig's suddenly important April absence.
The Pirates, meanwhile, took Charles Cutler in the AA portion of the draft, relieving the Cardinals of one of the offensive-minded catchers they had no interest in using. Cutler is the kind of player the Rule 5 draft was designed for—in 2011 he was stuck sharing time in Springfield, where he hit .333/.398/.475 in 62 games. He wasn't a prospect—he's the same age as Bryan Anderson despite not emerging as a sleeper prospect until 2009, which continues to amaze me—but he's got a chance of emerging as a useful backup, much like the real Bryan Anderson.
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joey votto
I’ve suggested it before. I’m just not convinced that the within the division argument would prevent him being traded here. It has much more to do with who you are offering.
by chris13 on Dec 9, 2011 9:08 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Not sure I'd want to offer what it would take to get him...
Though, at this point I think I should take a step back and re-evaluate my feelings on trades. In the absence of Pujols I pretty much keep falling back on our farm system as our greatest strength, and like the manager who doesn’t want to move a young pitcher out of the bullpen to become a starter again because of his “success” there, I am reluctant to trade any of our shiny prospects at the moment. And that’s probably just plain irrational of me.
I'm not a huge fan of trading top prospects either...
but the Cardinals are built to be a contender now. The mistake teams make with trades frequently is trying to use trades to improve a shitty team. It’s not as if we would be trying to trade our way into the upper echelons — we are the proverbial ‘one step away’ right now. Adding Votto, even at the cost of a Shelby Miller, would keep the Cardinals as major contenders for at least another couple of years, and probably longer if they resign him in a couple of years. And as we saw with Colby, even can’t miss prospects don’t necessarily perform at a high level early in their careers (nb — i am not endorsing that trade. Way too little in return). Miller, even if he is ultimately successful, could take years to get there.
If we were loaded with positional prospects I would be more sanguine about trading for a Votto or a Hanley Ramirez
However, I really do think the point of loading up on SP is that they are more risky to get when they are expensive. So I still kind of want to keep our grubby little hands tight around these minor league pitchers as long as we can. I’m very conflicted. I probably can’t be totally rational about baseball so soon into The Troubles.
Obviously it all depends on the particulars of the cost
If our farm has any truly untouchable guys I would think Miller has to be it, and I kind of doubt we could pry Votto away without trading him. So realistically I don’t see it happening, and personally I don’t think I would want to make that particular trade. If we’re talking about Martinez + Cox + Sanchez or something that’d be much more tempting.
That would be very tempting
To try to grab Votto. Really don’t think the Reds would trade him and especially to the Cards tho
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
Just read your reply to yourself that said exactly what I did when I replied
Should have read first. Fail
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Dec 9, 2011 10:41 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Wouldn't that be the beauty of it
Having more good pitching prospects is a great strategy since often many don’t pan out, do you assume atleast one will. That said, that also means they are more likely to leave you wishing you had pulled the trigger for real major league positional success. All negotiation should be based on risk vs reward analysis with a focus on value, not philosophy. I’d go Miller for Votto but it would probably take more and I’d actually prefer packaging Martinez, you’d be dumping a much higher risk while getting to tout his shiny upside more when trying to get the best value from the deal
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Dec 9, 2011 10:39 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
There is something to be said for trading away risky prospects for more sure-thing positional guys
But if we trade away the risky pitching prospects too much we may end up having to acquire expensive risky pitchers instead of developing our own cheap risky pitchers. Pitchers are always riskier in the long run (right?) so I like the idea of just developing them ourselves so they at least aren’t expensive should they flame out.
it's probably going to take our top MLers
probably martinez & miller, maybe a couple others. in a way it would be nice, but it won’t happen. maybe they sign someone like derrek lee?
THEY DID IT FOR TORTY! 2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
twitter
I’d trade the rights to Tino Martinez and Trevor Miller in a heartbeat for him. I bet the Cardinals would as well.
by mcgrathp on Dec 9, 2011 9:37 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If they demanded both guys and were not willing to budge off of that demand
then, it’d just be plain obvious they really aren’t interested in trading him to St. Louis knowing full well, that Mo would probably be fine parting with one of the two for the right player but not both.
Besides, the Red Reporter might actually implode on itself if Votto was traded to the Cardinals….which would be fun to see.
Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.
- John Wayne
It will take more to bring him here than it would take for Toronto to get him, though
And Toronto would have the ability to drive up his price to a pretty ridiculous level with the amount of talent they have in the minor leagues.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Trading is silly
Our surplus is in money now, not top prospects (though we do have a lot). Albert signing with the Angels didn’t give us extra young talent, it left us with a ton of extra money to spend. We should do that instead of plunder the farm, especially for a year of Votto.
"The Mollusk" makes me want to rail LSD crystals off my friends' sternum. Rage."
by ICEYhawtSTUNNAZ on Dec 9, 2011 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
i'm pretty sure that extra young talent will come with the draft
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I'm assuming
We get 2 extra 1st rounders for Pujol$ right?
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
We get the Angels' first-rounder and a supplemental pick between the first and second rounds.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
By my count,
2 first-rounders, 2 supplementals, and did Jackson decline arbitration?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
And with these stupid budget caps
We will have no money to spend on all of them
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 9, 2011 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
No Shelby Millers will fall to us,
but there will still be good talent on the board, even if all the talent is cost-controlled.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
aside: is there a list floating out there somewhere
of the 2-sport athletes that are now big questions marks given the new CBA restrictions?
I doubt there's a list right now.
I’m sure one will be put together as the draft approaches.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I thought it was more of a luxury tax type situation instead of a hard cap, per se?
Or do I have that wrong?
its a luxury tax type situation...
but it is so punitive that it is essentially a hard cap. you lose draft picks once you are 10% above slot, IIRC.
...
Owners achieved their goal of reining in spending on amateur players coming to the major leagues. For high school and college players taken in the June amateur draft, there will be five bands of penalties, starting with a 75 percent tax on the amount 0-5 percent over a specified threshold for each team next year, based on its selection spot. For teams going 5-10 percent over, the tax will rise to 100 percent and they will lose their next first-round draft pick. If a team goes more than 15 percent over, it could lose its following two first-round draft picks.
I don't get why owners wanted that
Isn’t it way cheaper to pay for draft guys than for FAs? Were they really that worried about bigger market teams sucking up draft picks? Maybe I’m just ignorant of the real problem or something. It just seems strange to me, since I had considered the lack of slot enforcement as an asset for smaller market teams.
Because the 17 owners that don't like spending money in the draft for unproven talent
want to keep the 15 owners that spend shitloads of money in the draft from doing so.
They want to be able to make really cheap investments in talent and want the draft to be based more on talent acquisition than monetary packaging.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
I getcha
I guess I just wrongly estimated the costs and advantages and stuff. And good point below about the international market.
amateur international players are going to be hurt too:
(…) any international player under the age of 23 being considered on the same basis as a draftee for tax purposes. Overall, there will be "pools" of international signing money available to each team, with better teams being able to pay out lower dollars in international signings than worse teams and, at some point in the future, the ability of teams to trade their international money to other teams if they don’t want to use it. It’s unclear yet how that will work.
The unclear part is supposed to be settled by this special committee.
I kinda like this part...
…have $3m or so and go to work signing a lot of $300K-500k guys. A ton of interesting Latin American players are signed in this price range. It is a nice strategy for acquiring Latin talent. It just sucks that they are forcing every team into the same boat.
Latin American players are rejoicing due to this.
By all means, lets leave the Latin American market a complete free for all while reigning in the spending on American kids eligible through the draft.
Soooooooooooooo stupid.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
this is going to be addressed this month with the intent to regulate
they formed one of their Committees to come up with a plan. Who knows what will come of it
I just hate the idea of the caps of any kind
How would Japanese players even work in all of this
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 9, 2011 11:17 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
well aren't most of them over 23?
I think it’s a free for all after that age. The 23 thing strikes me as a way to keep domestic players from sneaking around the draft by moving to a foreign country
what happens to a drafted player who doesn't sign?
do they become free agents?
I know a lot of the guys drafted still have some school left, but if i’m a big junior or senior who knows the predicament of the draft, could I just refuse to sign and then hit the free market?
although, I’m not sure how this would be different than the previous system and I’m not sure how it worked then either.
Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.
- John Wayne
pretty sure the team that drafted them has rights till signing day
if no agreement, then they have to go back into the draft. I recall Strasburg threatening to avoid the whole system by playing for an independent league team and trying to qualify as a free agent
Drew didn't sign and then had to go back into the draft.
I don’t know if the new CBA changed that.
I’m also not sure if the NCAA allows players to return after they declare for the draft.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
But Drew did go to Indy ball.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
But essentially holding out is not a great option for the player
Because they will be in the same or worse position the next year. The club has even more leverage now because not many players would want to try to extort a team to pay way over slot and then wait another year and go through the same thing again.
baseball players
don’t have to “declare” for the draft. They can be drafted out of high school then after two years of college. Once drafted, then they can decide to accept the contract or go back to school (of course, if they retain an agent then they have to leave school).
by ArkansasTravs on Dec 9, 2011 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
no, with multiple picks, we'll be helped
By the new system. It basically makes all players, even the high talent ones, sign for slot.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 9, 2011 11:28 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
i think this concern is very overblown
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 9, 2011 3:41 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
look no further than matt holliday and carl crawford
i’m not saying that most or even many of the top prospects will have this issue, but there certainly top flight guys who could have a much shorter path to tens of millions in other leagues. If there is a monster 2-sport athlete of top flight quality, going to the MLB is a really hard sell.
That's always been true
You don’t have to spend years in the minors to make the league in those other leagues. The downside is that those other leagues have to retain not-ready-for pro ball players on their rosters, and you got stuff like the not ready for the NBA Kobe looking overmatched.
But none of those other leagues have young players making $20,000 a year hoping for a shot.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Which means that we won't find a Shelby Miller at 19
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Not due to signability concerns,
but we still could find an excellent player at No. 19.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Due to some other inefficiency, sure
But those are far, far harder to find than signability concerns
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
If you want to spend...
…go nuts on additional scouts and geeks. Get these guys out to really watch kids over and over again. Spend some money on good coaches to analyse mechanics prior to drafting Kozmas. It takes 3-4 games against good talent and a lot of film to get a decent feel for a kids ability. The cap in a way brings it back to out working everyone.
Signability concerns was the great draft inefficiency, to be sure,
but even those players have a high burnout rate. You just have to invest in good scouts and have a good evaluation program that you believe in to make the right calls on draft day. There’s a good chance Kolten Wong types will still be falling to us.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
If they ever decided to include foreign players in the draft like the NHL and NBA
then that would help make the talent pool in the draft much, much deeper.
Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.
- John Wayne
the downside is that you'll see a lot more HS players declining; since they can't negotiate
for more than slot, the only hope for a payday is to wait it out till another draft. college players will be more or less stuck.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
And, you know
I’m basically fine with the system encouraging more players to go to college rather than take their chances at flaming out in the MLB minor league system.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Both of these comments make sense to me (Y2S and Stunnaz)
Again, I am very ambivalent about what kind of moves we should be making right now.
All I know is that we were lucky that Pujols was such a good first baseman that he essentially broke the defensive spectrum/positional adjustment thing. It didn’t matter that he was “penalized” in the value stats for being a first baseman; he still hit and defended so well that he was perennially at the top of the game. Now that he’s gone I really hope we focus on premium positions.
by mattybobo on Dec 9, 2011 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not sure why we need to throw our weight around immediately, is all.
last time I checked, it’s still the National League Central. it was largely La Russa’s fault, IMO, that we had such a terrible record in our own division, which just made it look harder than it is.
The real challenge is going to be that we’re changing horses so dramatically with Matheny. or stallions, whatever.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I am both hesitant to make s big move right now for fear of letting the Pujols thing affect our judgment
And also don’t see the team really doing that sort of thing. It doesn’t seem like anybody available right now is the kind of guy who has been on our radar for a long time like Holliday was.
mm, our needs now are the same needs they always were
a frickin middle infield.
besides, I think McGwire could use a real test, because I want to see if he has the chops to really add to a team’s offense. no Aldrete anymore, right?
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
MI is clearly the place to start if we're talking about real upgrades
I am still curious how the outfield thing is going to shake out.
in conclusion
I blame the Astros and their stupid circus park.
REHAB FOR TORTY
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
get it straightened out, luhnow
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
He's taking it to the AL west
Fixed!
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Dec 9, 2011 10:49 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
(we'll still have to play there thanks to this godawful perpetual interleague)
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I hope the new owner
has already asked the question: “So explain to me again why there’s a freakin’ HILL and FLAGPOLE in center field?”
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 9, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
As we type here today, I believe the Cardinals are the favorites in the NL Central.
Especially if Fielder leaves—which I think is pretty likely what with K-Rod accepting arbitration so that he will be paid $13MM to setup in Milwaukee. I don’t think that we need to make much in the way of a free agent signing. That being said, I’d certainly be in on Furcal and am interested in signing him depending on the price and length of contract. I’d also be in on Beltran for the same reasons. A one- or two-year contract for either or both would improve the team and give us a better chance to win the 2012 World Series.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
oh yeah, say yes to Berk type things.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Also, we have decent insurance for both players.
Greene at SS and Craig for RF, assuming Craig is able to come back and hit as he is capable.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
yes.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
Agree...
I was thinking about this. 2 year deals with mutual options would make sense to me.
You dont have to expose either one of them too much. You can do the Craig / Beltran platoon some to ensure you have a solid bat of the bench. And you have Greene with some hitting ability to spell Furcal.
Beyond this you need a player to limit Descalaso’s exposure.
You dont need perfect players, there arent any left really. You just need complementary players at reasonable price and then see where you are at the deadline. If we can avoid flat out black holes in the line-up, a calling card of Jocketty/LaRussa, we will be fine.
Yeah, I would think there will be plenty of bats to go around between Craig, Beltran, Berkman
Craig can play RF and 1b
Beltran can play RF and maybe some CF to spell Jay particularly against LHP.
Berkman can play 1b and RF.
Does Beltran have some kind of bad physical
condition I don’t know about? Everyone is talking about him as a part-time player and I’m not seeing the problem with his 2011 numbers. apologies in advance for my ignorance.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 9, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
Knee issues...
…in the past. I just think you only want to play him 120 games in the field if you have someone that can pick up 40 games. Leg preservation.
He had microfracture surgery on his knee, I believe.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I understand we get more picks
but I stand by my argument. The extra picks are a consolation, not a justification to deal from a relative less stronger area (the farm) versus an objective strength (literally extra money). A) it remains to be seen what will happen to the scouting/drafting department in the wake of Luhnow’s departure B) elite talent now is more valuable than potential elite talent that hasn’t even been drafted yet) and C) we have $20 million extra dollars! Spend that, not cost-controlled studs.
"The Mollusk" makes me want to rail LSD crystals off my friends' sternum. Rage."
by ICEYhawtSTUNNAZ on Dec 9, 2011 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
More money helps with trades too
you don’t have to be afraid of at-market contracts.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
If that trade involves someone talented but getting expensive it may well be worth it
McCutchen, Alexi Ramirez or Martin Prado jump to mind
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
i would love Alexei to jump out of the van.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Williams did use the word rebuild after the Santos trade
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
It would be 2 years of Votto, actually
And I think the team would probably look to extend him at the time of the trade. I’m just not sold on trading Shelby Miller along with another top prospect or two for Joey Votto, since watching Shelby Miller mow down Cardinals in two years really isn’t enticing to me at all.\.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Is Miller really that highly regarded?
Honest question born from the fact I just catch the snippets about the farm clubs.
Might be a top five prospect in all of baseball right now
Probably top 3 for pitchers, with Matt Moore and Julio Teheran. At times last year people were saying he was the number one pitching prospect, I think Matt Moore just got so awesome that he pulled ahead for the consensus.
Pretty spot on
Moore has to be the consensus number one, and from what the early prospect lists are saying Teheran/Miller are the best RHP prospects in all of baseball. I’d take Miller over Teheran FWIW.
Something clever...
Miller is a top 5 prospect in all of baseball,
if not a top 3 prospect. I haven’t seen any list this postseason, but I’d bet he is right there. His Texas League numbers were impressive.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I should've read mattybobo's comment.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Yeah he's someone that should not be traded
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
This statement is never true
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
As in there never should be an untouchable?
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
Yeah, technically I agree that nobody should ever be 100% untouchable
However, I doubt that in the real world, we will find ourselves with an opportunity to be happy trading Shelby Miller. It could happen but it’s unlikely.
Evan Longoria + Matt Moore
Do it Mo!
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Dec 9, 2011 1:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
As the wise Ted DiBiasi would say, everybody has a price.
(except Virgil.)
"He probably misses his old glasses."
Other things wrestling has taught us
The art of stylin’ and profilin’
If an opponent is from a nation with which America has fought a war, bet on the American
Sometimes you just gotta throw your partner through the window of a barber shop
“Never trust a snake”
“Suck it!”
Remember when the 1-2-3 kid kept beating Razor Ramon? Those were the days.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
I loved Razor Ramon
But perhaps another lesson from wrestling is that you shouldn’t keep betting on guys who always have toothpicks in their mouths.
This is also a baseball lesson coincidentally.
No, I did not
I didn’t know there was a depressing story either.
I always liked Scott Hall for weird, superficial reasons. He just had a great look for a wrestler. He was big, tall, and wore the five o’clock shadow and greasy mullet as perfectly as anybody I could imagine. Instant sleazy bad guy.
Scott Hall's is a sad story.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
I would say, that due to the cost of #1 starters on the free agent market
and the inevitability of most pitching injuries, prospects like Miller are pretty much untouchable in terms of trade.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
John Sickels called him the best RH pitching prospect in Baseball
Says that now that Moore is in the Majors Miller is the most likely ace in MiLB. Mike Newman said that he has nothing left to prove and ought to be in STL this year, also called him the best RH prospect in baseball
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I think he still has some things to prove,
so I don’t know that I agree with Newman. He struggled a little bit towards the end of the year with command. Whether that was due to innings or moving up a level, I don’t know. But I don’t think he should be in St. Louis throwing 200 innings next year. I think it would be wise to keep him at AA to start the year and move him to AAA in June to build him up to around 175-180 innings in total next season. Then he’ll be ready for the jump in September for a cup o’ coffee and a rotation guy for the 2013 season.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Agreed.
What I’ve read suggests that he was still coasting on his FB last year, and needs to have a reliable third pitch before he’s really MLB-ready. I’m content to wait until 2013 and let him succeed right away.
I don't really buy this
His fastball and curveball are good enough right now to make him a #2 starter in the big leagues. Both are plus pitches and he has good command of each.
I agree that if he’s able to work in an average to plus change-up (and scouting reports state that this is being worked on) he’ll be much, much tougher for major league hitters to handle.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
I'm happy to believe that -- just never seen him in person.
That’s high on my list for this summer.
I’m a little skeptical that he would come in as a #2 right now (that means a sub-4 FIP, in my book) simply because lots of mega-hyped pitchers have failed to do that right away, and TINSTAAPP. But lots of people smarter than me keep saying it, so hey. Hope they’re right.
Matt Moore is basically a two pitch pitcher right now
Fastball/Curve (both plus pitches, like Miller), but he has an average change up that he uses frequently to right handed hitters.
Just saying
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Oh yeah, some guys absolutely do it.
But other hotshot prospects turn out not to be ready to live on two pitches right away. My feeling is that you can’t really “know” a guy’s fastball will get enough swings and misses at the MLB level until you’ve seen it happen, no matter how overmatched AA hitters are.
I agree with you
mostly posted the Newman thing to show how highly regarded he is, and how polished he seems.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I think he should be in St. Louis pretty damn soon
It would be nice to have him polish his stuff so he’s ready to dominate his first go around, but we’re also racing against the injury clock.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
Im good on Votto.
We have Lance this season and next if we need him. Matt Adams hit better in AA last year than Votto and Texiera hit in AA (different leagues). With Zac Cox in the wings as well, the back up plan to that is Freese to 1st when/if he arrives. Theres a few ways to play it, but IMO Votto wouldn’t be one of the ways. Not for our top prospect, there the future of our organization now with Al gone. With Lance, Matt and Freese or Craig to rotate around by the end of 2012/ 2013 ST I’d feel confident in dealing Zac Cox. Maybe Atlanta would bite for Vinters with other players invovled. Be nice to see Adams be a big surprise THIS year and be able to deal Lance at teh deadline for PLAYOFF pieces…Synopsis: Life After Al Should Be OK..
"You may run like Mays, but you hit like sh**."
by Lankford 4 President on Dec 9, 2011 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
We won it all in 2011
with a .299/ 37/ 99/ .906 line from Pujols. Yes he had some incredible years, but we didn’t need one of his incredible years to win it all. With Waino returning, we may not even need that line from someone to replace him. Maybe .284/ 29/ 91 .900 …I can see Craig capable of that
"You may run like Mays, but you hit like sh**."
by Lankford 4 President on Dec 9, 2011 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
I'M GONNA BUILD A FORT OUT OF THESE COUCH CUSHIONS AND I'M NEVER COMING OUT
"He probably misses his old glasses."
by Alxfritz on Dec 9, 2011 9:09 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
I kind of feel like Albert Pujols has taken that mysterious plane to Exeter's compound and left me behind.
“I’m gonna curl up in his sock drawer… and sleep for days…”
Albert Pujols buys the city of Fort Bragg, CA to counter.
"I got to get Dr. Freeze off my twig right now."-Nyjer Morgan
by flipthebird15 on Dec 9, 2011 9:16 AM EST up reply actions
Yoenis Cespedes
I think Yoenis Cespedes is very intriguing. Not sure how realistic it is though…
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
If you haven't seen the corny YouTube showcase
Do it… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kREZHmOR1bg
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
"Sailing" by Christopher Cross is an interesting musical choice.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
I don't know if he's got the eye...
…but he appears to have the swing.
Boog would have made that play.
Curious
What do you see with his eye? Love your analysis.
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
Great angles at contact
Textbook.
He might get there a bit unusually — a bit steep — but I’ll have to check.
Boog would have made that play.
Not to open an old/new wound
But compare him to this.

Boog would have made that play.
by thepainguy on Dec 9, 2011 9:41 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It's hard to know...
…whether a player is going to be able to read major league quality pitching until they face major league quality pitching.
NOTHING, not even AAA, compares to the big leagues.
Boog would have made that play.
Mark Hamilton and Chris Duncan
They are two guys who appeared to have The Swing but not The Eye (or at least not The Patience).
There is/was nothing obviously wrong with their swings. Their biggest issue is that, at least at the major league level, they don’t tend to swing at good pitches; they chase too much crap.
I don’t know if that’s because they can’t or won’t be disciplined.
Boog would have made that play.
Stats can help with this some
They can tell you if someone’s a chaser, but I haven’t figured out how to get them to give me a sense of why a guy is a chaser.
Boog would have made that play.
Chris Duncan had good plate discipline.
As someone who got into many a heated back-and-forth on this very blog about Duncan, I feel obliged to take up his cause again. His plate discipline was one of the reasons he deserved to be in the lineup before his injury (and even after it, his plate discipline did not abandon him). Duncan posted a 9.6% walk rate in ’06, a 12.7% walk rate in ’07, a 13.3% walk rate in ’08, and a 13.5% walk rate in ’09. That is excellent.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I guess my follow up question
Is there a difference between a “good eye” when it comes to strikes and non-strikes, and a “good eye” for which strikes to swing at? If there were, wouldn’t that difference be the hitting equivalent of “control versus command” for pitchers?
Yeah, but it's a bit harder to track for players.
Duncan hit for a lot of power, too, before he was injured. This suggests to me that he was pretty good at following the Cardinals philosophy of getting a pitch to drive and driving it. Then he injured his back and had a cutting edge surgery on it. He waasn’t the same player after that, which is completely understandable.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Yes, but he seemed vulnerable to certain pitches
I agree that his injuries could have changed everything.
Boog would have made that play.
I really like his swing.
Honestly, with a big pile of unused cash now sitting around, I would love to see the Cardinals take a run at the kid and see if he could develop into a star.
Is it just me, or does his swing kind of put one in mind of Adrian Beltre a bit?
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
At least at contact, what I see is THE swing
Look at his position at contact in the first swing of the infamous promo clip.
That’s perfect.
Boog would have made that play.
Yeah, I think you're right.
I’m looking at a couple other short clips of him swinging on Youtube (from the WBC), and his position at impact is just what you want to see. Personally, I think his hands are too high at setup, but that’s really cosmetic as much as anything. He gets into a really nice slot with the bat, I’ll go at least that far.
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 9:42 AM EST up reply actions
The high hands are part of what I mean by his swing being steep
That can create problems up or down — because he can have to drop his hands too much to get to balls down in the strike zone — but in the clips he seems to hit both pitches.
Boog would have made that play.
True, it doesn't seem to be an issue really.
But if I were coaching the guy I would try to get him to move his hands down and back a bit at setup. But then, if it’s working for him, I guess you have to consider whether or not the attempted change would be worth it.
Question, Chris: how would you go about making that decision? Do you just leave well enough alone so long as something is working, or do you still try to get a player to make a change you feel could be beneficial even if there doesn’t seem to be a real obvious problem?
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 9:47 AM EST up reply actions
It depends
Generally, you should leave well-enough alone.
There are some things that you can fix, like Colby’s problem with launching his swing with his barrel vertical (which he did fix in a year). Boog’s swing also got screwed up in a year, so it should have been fixable in a year.
However, and I’ve learned this over the years, there are some flaws that will just kill you in the bigs (but nowhere else). The leaky back elbow of Matt Pagnozzi and Tyler Greene is the biggest one on my list. I have done some work with Dallas McPherson (AAA White Sox) and he’s never managed to get around the problem; it’s too deep in his muscle memory.
Of course, and based on what I know about how hard it is to fix some problems, you’re just going to have to pass on some guys; their problems are too hard to fix.
The thing about Torres was that his mechanics were good but his approach was screwed up due to a bad cue. All he had to do was stop trying to push his hands at the ball and he was there.
I’m still talking to some people about doing some pro scouting and one of the things that I’d trying to identify are flaws that are tough but fixable; things that are fixable and things that aren’t. Generally, you have to be a REALLY good athlete to work around some of this stuff (e.g. hit .250) and, if you can get them to stop doing that, then you can quickly get some real value. Joe Thurston is a good example of a crazy athletic guy who was ruined by a bad approach.
P.S. Nobody’s going to want to hear this, but I bet I could fix Aaron Miles in a short period of time.
Boog would have made that play.
Gotcha.
I appreciate the response. I look at these guys all the time, and I feel like I can usually tell what’s going on that’s good or bad, but I’ve never tried to teach anyone anything athletically. I was curious how you would approach a situation like that.
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 9:57 AM EST up reply actions
I could fix Aaron Miles too
just have Skip Schumaker pitch to him
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Dec 9, 2011 10:53 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Cespedes is a bit like a mail order bride
Sure she looks a super model in the pictures she sent you, and seems really sweet in the broken english emails you exchanged, but are you really ready to give her half your stuff?
Sure she may turn out to be Karolina Kurkova, with Gordon Ramsay kitchen skills, and worship the ground you walk on, but their is at least as good of a chance that she is a violent alcoholic slob who alternates between cursing at you in a language you don’t understand and haruanging you to dip into your 401k to pay for her mother to move in with you. Also pretty good chance she can’t hit major league breaking balls.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
by TomCat009 on Dec 9, 2011 9:36 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Hitting breaking balls could turn out to be her specialty
Or it could turn out her specialty is just breaking balls.
by mattybobo on Dec 9, 2011 9:37 AM EST up reply actions 8 recs
She just keeps screeching at me in this language...
sounds likes some kind of demon or somethin’!
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 9:38 AM EST up reply actions
Look, there's...no way you can pronounce... whatever that is.
Just say Smith or Jones or somethin’.
I love that scene so, so much.
And I kind of love you for picking it up.
(awkward silence)
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
That's a tough one.
Omnislash is obviously tough to go against, but I always thought Meteorain was really cool. Tifa’s Final Heaven was really neat animation-wise.
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
One that was very fun for me was Zell in FF8.
If his stats were awesome and you were really quick with the buttons, you could just keep repeating the lowest two combos and it would only use fractions of a second each time. So you could get tons of hits in and end up doing more damage than if you had used the harder combos.
That's true.
His combo system was made to be abused.
If we’re talking FF8, though, I always thought the absolute best was Irvine’s. You had to buy or acquire the ammo, sure, but by the end portions of the game even his third best limit ammo would do 9999 and you could get in six or seven shots with it before the time ran out.
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
That was fun too
I feel like FF8, sandwiched as it was between 7 and 9, was a tad under-appreciated. It was fun while I played it, I just didn’t really have much desire to replay it… which is weird for me.
I loved 7, really liked 8,
but honestly was kind of underwhelmed by 9. I have friends who adore 9, but I just didn’t . Eight had a pretty great storyline, with really well done characters (mostly), but certain aspects of the gameplay kind of hurt it.
I thought the story on Nine was fascinating, but it felt too deliberately like a throwback to me, I think. I know that’s exactly what it was supposed to be, but it felt very self-conscious and sort of…manipulative, perhaps? I don’t really know what it was about Nine that didn’t do it for me, but there was something missing.
Six was my favourite of all, though.
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 10:31 AM EST up reply actions
FF7 is the reason I gave up gaming for a long time
I had like 40 hours of that just game magically erase on my memory card.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 9, 2011 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
somthing about the graphics in 8 really put me off.
something else too … oh, yeah, that stupid draw system. hated it. gimme materia any day.
I feel like we’ve had this conversation before. VEB is on an infinite loop. except, when its not, like when we change constants such as managers and first basemen.
oh, and the engagement’s still off, rb.
Do it for Torty.
Happy Flight!
I loved 8, but I'll agree the draw system got really old
Spending hours farming spells just wasn’t any fun. I also loved 7, and enjoyed 9… 12 is my favorite, though.
i'm interested in some of the new features for 13-2.
i didn’t totally hate 13, but the linearity certainly bugged me. i actually enjoyed the battle system once i got the hang of it. it looks like 13-2 will allow you to travel, if not all over the world, all throughout time. that could lead to a lot of replayability. by the time i finished 13 i felt like i was just finishing it for the sake of finishing it.
Heh
I have a Wii but no PS3 or X-Box of any kind. So I haven’t played 13. Still, I am hesitant to ever try it for a couple reasons.
It looks like they tried to make the game even more linear than X, and hold the player’s hands even more for a longer time at the beginning. I liked the change of pace in 12 and don’t know how much I would enjoy that.
Also, it looks like with the characters and story and ridiculous action/fighting sequences, they basically let Tetsuya Nomura just go crazy and run with it. I liked 7, 8, and 10, but at some point I fear I would just overdose on lazer gun-swords and belt buckles and zippers, and crazy spinning jumping shooting summoning magic attacks, and insanely impractical motorcycles, and extreme sports sequences, and female character that looks like every other character he’s ever designed, etc. etc. I have my limits and 13 looks like it might go past some of those.
the battle system in 13 was a TON of fun
once you were use to the notion of changing strategies on the fly… which, once I thought of it, was what I did in earlier versions. if made the gameplay much quicker. But everything else about that version was a total bust, imo.
Do it for Torty.
Happy Flight!
Interesting
Even if the battle system is very fun I’m not sure I would enjoy the rest of it enough… I loved the system in 12 but I also liked the story, setting, music, art style, etc…
oh, I'll not argue that 13 has anything on 12. I just like the battle system.
let’s just get it over with: If I had to, the ranking would be: 7, 9, 5, 6, 10, 12, 13, 8… never did the MMO.
Do it for Torty.
Happy Flight!
I think I'm gonna get serious about playing 5 now
Recently beat 2 on my cell phone and don’t feel like replaying. Played 1 a ton on same cell phone, it was fun but I’m bored with it. Not sure if I’ll just go with an emulator or find some cheap used version on gameboy advance or something like that.
I’ve played it a little on emulator but didn’t go very far.
yeah the battle system got pretty cool
about half way through once you had a few characters set up to cover all scenarios. extremely fast paced, for sure.
Final Fantasy 8 never happend.
Do you hear me? IT NEVER FUCKING HAPPENED!
I shouldn’t EVER have to bond with a spirit to drink a god damn potion. IT NEVER HAPPENED!
Makin' toast!
DING
Butterin' toast!
As I recall,
you couldn’t use items (maybe just in battle) unless you junctioned with a Guardian force that had the “item” ability.
As RB said above, the story was decent-to-good, I just couldn’t get past certain elements of the gameplay.
Makin' toast!
DING
Butterin' toast!
Yeah, it was weird (I was just trying to make a nerdy joke for the record)
I kind of appreciated their experimentation. They didn’t want to just make another FF7, they were willing to take a risk and change it up a lot. And I found it pretty fun even though it had its warts. But yeah, the fact that I didn’t feel very compelled to replay it over again spoke volumes.
I gave up when I had to put a band together with the party members.
And the headquarters turned into a vehicle.
Also, I REALLY despised how enemies leveled with me. Odd, given how I really enjoy Oblivion, but still.
Sorry – I can be slow to catch the jokes sometimes.
Makin' toast!
DING
Butterin' toast!
Heh, no problem
Yeah, FF8 went all crazy in certain ways that was OK with me. Some of the stuff is a smaller-scale version of what scares me away from 13.
It’s not even the sci-fi setting. It’s the ridiculous JRPG version of it that I don’t think I would enjoy.
Tifa's was pretty cool.
but Auron in X had a nice one too. Matsune, maybe? I can’t remember. I am now old.
Do it for Torty.
Happy Flight!
Auron was just awesome all-around.
It had been a while since the last “old guy who is a badass and isn’t goofy” character. Cyan was the last one and he wasn’t nearly as important for the story as Auron was.
7: Barret and Cid were both old, and both ridiculous
Vincent doesn’t count because he’s actually an angsty bishounen vampire or something, not a grumpy old guy.
8: No real old character. Laguna doesn’t count. Besides, he is pretty goofy.
9: Steiner is a goofy old guy par excellence.
achievement unlocked: have someone use the word bishounen in your baseball blog's comments section
by DanUpBaby on Dec 9, 2011 11:32 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think the Twilight series is at least useful for one purpose:
One of the main characters is a great, accessible example for Western audiences of what a bishounen is. At least, I’m pretty sure, I would have to ask Y2S or red baron to be sure.
But I think fewer and fewer young people remember Interview with the Vampire
And vampires weren’t originally angsty pretty boys either, were they?
not according to Nosferatu, no.
but in the last 20 years? Lost Boys? Buffy? It’s an old trope, at this point.
Do it for Torty.
Happy Flight!
I forgot about Lost Boys
Kiefer Sutherland was never pretty (he was basically pulling the Billy Idol look in that movie, right? Young Billy Idol was actually way prettier than Kiefer Sutherland) but Jason Patric was kind of bishy I guess.
okay, I have to agree with all this.
tho I never thought of cid as that old. and vincent is dead (dead, get it! I’m a dork) after cerebus, the worst entry by far.
Do it for Torty.
Happy Flight!
you mean it may be something like
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 9, 2011 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
Well
Sometimes you are the windshield, sometimes you are the bug
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Not to be a Cards homer...
…but if the reports are right and the Cards tried both the long-term option and the short-term, high-AAV route (and 5/140 would have gotten Pujols the highest AAV record he seemingly wanted) then what else were they supposed to do?
I’m having a hard time having a problem with the team on this one.
Boog would have made that play.
Yeah, I really can't fault the team
It seems like they both gave it a damn good try and also stuck to their guns and refused to spend (very) much more than they thought they could responsibly pay. MO’s words at the presser the other day basically said they went beyond their comfort zone, or something along those lines. They were sincere in trying to get him back and did the right thing to refuse the cross the line they had drawn.
I think people...
…would be a lot more pissed if they had done the bad deal that people were fearing.
Boog would have made that play.
Eh, I think I personally would just be really conflicted
And it would not stop me from being at least a little happy to see him probably retire as a Cardinal. It just wouldn’t be a 100% joy fest or anything. I think a lot of people would have a similar feeling. If he had signed the 220-ish deal, or a shorter one with higher annual value, I would be doing cartwheels (more so for the latter, but the former would have been totally acceptable to me).
I'd be THRILLED with every year we got of him
But I’d also always be wondering, “Is this it?”
Boog would have made that play.
this one is on pujols
The Cardinals offered him more than i thought they should have.He was going to be a very rich man in a city that loved him. In the end, it’s pretty clear, he just did not want to stay.
Honestly, i’m a little relieved. I wanted him to be a cardinal for life and its sad that he is gone. But I didn’t really want to sign him to that ridiculous contract.
I need to change my avatar now.
The thing that never gets discussed is if Albert really wanted to be "the Face" of STL
of carrying the hopes of a whole city. In LA he is a star but he is also just another guy there, there are probably less than 100 guys in STL making half of the AAV of the contract they offered Albert, There are thousands in LA making 25+ million a year if Albert falls apart in LA they already have Vernon Wells in STL if he falls apart or even declines the whole franchise goes with him.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
One thing I have heard about Pujols often
is that, personality-wise, he doesn’t really seem to want to be “The Guy” or “The Leader”. Perhaps that factors into it. He clearly wanted to be “The Guy” when it comes to payment and recognition of his skills. But in St. Louis he would be “The One” and somewhere else he doesn’t necessarily have that kind of emotional burden. Could be he was reluctant to put himself in a position where people would want to crown him and put him on a throne next to Stan Musial.
I can't blame him if that factors in
Todd Helton got lumped in to the Hampton/Neagle fiasco as he was the “Man” in Denver, I can’t tell you how many arguments I have had about Helton’s contract not being a bad deal for the franchise. In STL APu was as big as John Elway was here and that is a lot to ask anyone to be.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I agree...
I went to CNN’s cost of living calculator and put in a salary of $22 million in St. Louis and my destination as Los Angeles. It told me to have the same cost of living in LA I would need to make $33 million dollars a year. I thought that was interesting since Albert is only making $25.4 million
There's no logic to it, just spite
Shoot, just compare the time he’s going to waste in traffic.
Unless he gets a helo, which I guess is now an option.
Boog would have made that play.
hardly anyone is blaming the team
the Burwell brand of disingenuous flame-stoking against the FO is appealing to only a very marginal audience. The FO gave him every chance to be a Cardinal for life and Albert made the choice to turn it down. Such is life. As others have pointed out, I hope somewhere down the line the Angels and Cardinals meet in the playoffs, so we can see Shelby Miller make Albert look like a fool at the plate.
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
by mattyp on Dec 9, 2011 9:35 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Burwell
is one of those guys you just can’t believe gets paid actual money to write a sports column. I refuse to read anything he writes even if the topic interests me.
Burwell's world view
divides everyone into victims and oppressors. And The Man (ownership) is always the oppressor. Never mind that in sports the “victims” usually do pretty well for themselves as well.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 9, 2011 9:47 AM EST up reply actions
You know, it's funny:
In my perusing of Twitter, the MSM, and non-VEB blog comments: Cardinals fans seem to be the only ones that come down on the side of the organization, which, I have to admit, is a real surprise to me.
Not so much because of the Cardinals fans, but because of the essentially apologist responses from some pretty smart people (Colin Wyers, for one, and Kevin Goldstein) who seem to want to blame the Cardinals for being “cheap” when they offered the guy the second largest contract in history in February and again in December. If anything, the team should be applauded: They knew what their price was and they stuck to their price. That’s what they should have done.
I come out of this whole thing with two thoughts:
- Disappointed in the player for taking a massive shit on what looked to be the most promising legacy in modern sports along with Derek Jeter.
- Incredibly happy with how our front office handled this entire situation. I think Mo made a name for himself in this last week, and just got outbid by a rookie GM who’s really going to regret this contract 5 years from now.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
by fourstick on Dec 9, 2011 9:39 AM EST up reply actions 17 recs
rec
I really do think Albert will end up regretting this one, but that’s not something I’m going to dwell on.
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
it's gonna be hard to live with as he backstrokes through his money bin
and takes care of his personal rally monkey.
yes. yes. yes.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 9:55 AM EST up reply actions
Mo's got work to do
I’m going to refrain from giving him credit until I see his next moves
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
Point taken
But don’t you feel pretty good about how he handled himself this week? I mean, he could have just said “fuck it” and thrown a shitload of money at him, but he didn’t. He knew his price and stuck to it.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
The Cardinals showed an impressive combo of wisdom, prudence, and plain guts.
I disagree with you about the “shitting on legacies” part, I think of it more like Albert failed to live up to a great opportunity, which is still disappointing but not something I will curse someone for.
Good points all around. And I think, if the Cardinals fan community at large really does “get it”, that it does us much credit as a fanbase.
Exactly
All of this post-mortem stuff just can’t be trusted, whether from Burwell’s excrement-laced column or from Lozano’s friends in the media. All of that is just (IMHO wrong-headed) attempts to rebuild Pujols’ personal capital, most of it at the expense of the Cardinals.
Look, it takes two to agree to a contract, and it is clear that Pujols valued the $$ and maybe even a change of scenery over his STL legacy.
And you know what, there’s nothing wrong with that. As anyone knows who has ever had the opportunity to relocate, it can be pretty exciting to get a fresh start. Sometimes you take the plunge, and sometimes you step up to the precipice and walk away.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 9, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
Very well said.
I am more interested in playoff baseball 7 out of the next 10 years than seeing us lose the ability to contend so we can see 3,000 and maybe a home run record. In 5 years when Alberts contract starts to be a burden, we could have 2 All Star bats locked down.
I will admit I loved Albert, what made him special was the birds on the bat, think Frank Thomas. If letting him go gets us 2 more WS titles in 10 years, it’s a no brainer.
also, we are generally cheap-ass midwesterners. we buy the store brand cheese because it's just as good as Kraft.
picking $254M over $210M (or whatever) is not a decision we can relate to well.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
This is a big issue honestly
We look at it from our perspective and wonder “how could the extra money make a difference” but I imagine the things we’d do with the money are an entirely different world from a sports star like Albert, who already took care of those kinds of concerns years ago, for the rest of his and his kids’ lives.
blaming the team is shortsighted and wrong.
but don’t tell burwell.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 9:54 AM EST up reply actions
Well I guess there is only one thing left to do.
Win the whole fucking thing.
Grit != flat out sucking.
by Evilfrog on Dec 9, 2011 9:26 AM EST reply actions 10 recs
I only have one thing to say to you Mo.
sign that motherf*cker, Prince.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Wait...
Did Mozeliak accidentally sleep with your estranged wife on whom you cheated and were caught on camera??? The plot thickens!!!
Didn't you see me sock him one during the World Series celebration?
we’re all good now though. winning heals all wounds.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
NO! My character will be ruined!
but wait… does that mean I get to purchase the Cardinals???
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
i hope this is a sitcom.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
It will be my remake of Major League.
i mean they are remaking everything these days.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Are you calling a BDW an ex-Vegas showgirl that married up?
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 9, 2011 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
Yep, I guess we'll have to
go all 2001 Mariners on the National League.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 9, 2011 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
"The Angels paid him about THIS much more than we thought was possible"
“And we were like, ‘whoa, that’s… that’s a lot of fucking money… fuck.’”
by mattybobo on Dec 9, 2011 9:32 AM EST up reply actions 15 recs
What to do with the leftover money...
When you look at 2012, I don’t see any options on the market that are sure things to improve this club (Rollins would be nice for 1 or 2 years, but there is no way he will not sign for 3+ years). Cespedes is intriguing given CF has capacity to be upgraded, but who knows if he will be as good as advertised or someone like Fukudome? In looking for a platoon partner for Jon Jay, Reed Johnson hits lefties really well and could probably be had on the cheap.
My opinion is that the club should make no major moves as a reaction to the departed until June/July of 2012. Give the current team (plus short term moves/low cost moves) an opportunity to see how well it performs.
I am actually getting excited about 2013. With the 20M the team was expecting to pay Pujols, along with 12M from Berkman, 7.5M from Westbrook (-1M buyout), and 11.875M from Lohse, there is a lot of payroll space opening up (51.375M). In 2013, you are looking to fill 2 rotation spots (1 internally with Lance Lynn or Shelby Miller if he’s ready), an OF/1B (wherever they don’t use Craig), possibly SS, and an extension for Yadi (+4M more than current salary?).
That leaves 47.375M available for Free Agents. I would like to see the Cardinals spend some of that to go after Greinke/Hamels and lock up Wainwright (assuming he returns to form). It would give Miller another year of seasoning and pave the way for Carp to retire and Shelby to move into the rotation. Let’s assume that takes up 22M to extend Wainwright and sign Greinke/Hamels, that still leaves 25M to sign a 1B/OF, or both. The marquee names include Victorino, Ethier, BJ Upton, Bourn, Hamilton, Quentin, and Swisher. The SS market is thin again unless AZ and Drew don’t agree on the mutual option, and he becomes available at age 30.
If anybody wants an account of how it all went down
here is Nightengale’s rendition. not sure if nexdef’d
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 9, 2011 9:33 AM EST reply actions
uh, seriously?
The Angles were the ones tugging at my heart.
Winner of the prestigious 2011 MVL as presented by Alxfritz.
"You didn't win LOY, but you did win MVL, which is a prestigious award I just made up. And that’s something RiverRat can never take from you." - Alxfritz
that's not the right quote
The Angels were the ones loading my wallet
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Dec 9, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
Definitely kick the tires
and take a test drive on Carlos Beltran please. Is one year/$11 mil with an option realistic?
Beltran would be a great pickup
Always wanted him in Cardinal red. He hit 22 HRs in pitchers parks IIRC.
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
I like the idea
Till I realized Lozano is his agent.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 9, 2011 9:47 AM EST up reply actions
1/11
Doubtful…he is a Scott Boras client.
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!
My Apologies
I stand corrected…however, I still am doubtful about the 1/11 thing. The guy made 19MM last year.
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!
He wants three years...
why wouldn’t the Phillies give him 3/36? They’re rich, already all in, and desperate for offense.
Sign Roy O
Yeah or the Angels, Marlins, Yankees, Toronto, or even the Rockies?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I'd put the Red Sox in the discussion
Surprised its been so quiet on the Beltran front given how many teams could use him
wow really? hadn't seen that
i figured the red sox always had an incremental ~$12m to toss in the pot
from what i have been told, Ortiz accepting arb put them slightly above the point at which they are comfortable having their payroll sit.
heh
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 9, 2011 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
Take the Giants off that list with they have added Melky and Pagan this off season
and their only real prospect is a CF
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
In the interest of good will
I would love to see the Royals sign Beltran to a 3/30 deal
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Royals don't need him sadly
Gordan, Cain, and Frenchy in the OF
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
there is no world where having Jeff Francouer on your team should mean
Carlos Beltran has no place to play. If they signed Beltran it would make the fans happy, provide a talented bridge to Myers, make Billy Butler a nice trade piece when Myers was ready, and someone to spell Cain against LHP
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Doesn't disagree at all
Just don’t see them signing Beltran since they just resigned Frenchy and need pitching more than anything
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
if not him they ought to package Butler for pitching
and sign Johnny Damon to DH/play the occaisonal LF. Butler is a good hitter, cheap and relatively young if they could get Neiman for him they should do it,
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Agree
I’d definitely try to turn Butler into pitching if I was Dayton Moore
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
Burwell's decided to take the sportstalk radio fan's perspective on things
Someone should tell Brian that just because the Cards could have made the deal, it doesn’t mean they should have made the deal. Link from STL Today.
“I think we did everything we could,” said general manager John Mozeliak.
Of course, I can’t hear what they’re saying because their actions have drowned out their words.
Their actions tell another story entirely. Their actions seem to suggest the Cards allowed a once-in-a-generation, three-time MVP, future Hall of Famer and franchise icon to slip away without much of a valiant or sincere fight.
Their actions seem to suggest that Pujols’ departure to the Los Angeles Angels for a stunning, 10-year, $254 million contract was, as best as I can figure, the result of only three possible scenarios:
1. The Cardinals grossly underestimated how high his asking price might soar once Pujols reached free agency.
2. They arrogantly underestimated what sort of human touch would be required to successfully court a prideful man and the best hitter of his generation.
3. The Cardinals simply decided a long time ago that they never had any intention of re-signing Pujols and allowing him to retire as a local treasure, but opted for image purposes to put up a carefully constructed facade of a “negotiation” to mislead Cardinals fans into believing an earnest pursuit of Pujols was going on.
I am leaning hard toward No. 3. This entire episode feels too much like a long, dragged-out bogus courtship. Imagine DeWitt, using his best inside voice and whispering in a windstorm — “Hey Albert … come … back” — then shrugging his shoulders with a sheepish grin and telling us “I guess he didn’t hear me.”
Also, what’s with #2? Human touch? I don’t think it was a human touch that Albert needed, seeing as the rumors were that Stan called him. It was big-time cash with human presidents on it that pulled him to Anaheim, and that’s fine.
Kumar: I don't know man, I lose my touch, man.
Dignan: Did you ever have a touch to lose, man?
It's as if we should all avoid reading Bryan Burwell!
"He probably misses his old glasses."
by Alxfritz on Dec 9, 2011 9:36 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I don't even read VEB comments if I see "Burwell"
followed by a large post. Thankful for that z function!
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
still waiting on the collapsable threads, bjorkdan
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I appreciate you pasting that bit here,
so I am not forced to give him page views for the garbage he routinely spews. That’s just asinine.
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 9:36 AM EST up reply actions
It's such predictable and uniteresting "opinion writing"
Let me guess, in the alternate history where we sign Albert to a mega-contract, Burwell’s angle is: Cowardly Cards Cave in to Albert’s Ego, Mortgage away Future of Franchise"
Hey….that’s pretty fucking good. Anyone from the PD reading, don’t you guys hand out jobs for this kind of shit analysis?
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
I'm totally willing to write this
I’ll do it for half of what they’re paying burwell.
by DanUpBaby on Dec 9, 2011 9:41 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
I'll do it for a third!
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 9:43 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
It's always about the money.
Lance Berkman will tell you.
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 9:48 AM EST up reply actions
I'll do it for free!!!
Under the pseudonym “Nyan Nurnwelb” of course….
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Huh.
Well, I can’t compete with that.
Free writing and a pseudonym? I just can’t sign up for that.
Wait, I feel like I’m missing something here…
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
Schmryan Schmurwell
It’s more believable. You could say you were named after your German uncle or something.
I'd pay THEM to write it
and I’d do so using the nomme de plume Teve Torbes.
by mattybobo on Dec 9, 2011 10:27 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
OK, maybe that's going a little far
Because how many people are going to actually remember the Teve Torbes thing?
Ha!
You forgot I’m not getting that big SBN paycheck! Ergo, no pride whatsoever!
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 9:48 AM EST up reply actions
i will do it for free if i get to kick joe strauss in the nuts once a week.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
I know you meant no harm
but please don’t post Burwell on here. As long as his stuff remains on stltoday, I can avoid it.
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
by mattyp on Dec 9, 2011 9:37 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Yeah, sorry
That goodness I put a subject line in there. Going to collapse my own post now.
Kumar: I don't know man, I lose my touch, man.
Dignan: Did you ever have a touch to lose, man?
"Thank goodness"
Good start to the day…
Kumar: I don't know man, I lose my touch, man.
Dignan: Did you ever have a touch to lose, man?
besides, burwell's an idiot
collapse the post or not, it’s still true.
THEY DID IT FOR TORTY! 2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
twitter
And we wonder why casual fans act like assholes about these situations.
Well, because they read writers who act like assholes about these situations.
Thing is, at least there’s the chance that an editor made him write this side of the story to grab some pageviews due to sensationalism. Colin Wyers comparing the Pujols/Cardinals to the Wells/Jays on Twitter, where it was clear that it was his own opinion, is even more ridiculous. Especially when you consider that Colin Wyers isn’t Bryan Burwell.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
i've had the displeasure to see and hear Burwell in non-rehearsed live broadcasts
no, he does come up with this stuff himself.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
yes, but. . .
the whole thing smacks of an editorial board meeting where someone says “OK, guys, who wants to take the anti-Cards position.”
I think it is 50/50 whether everyone else took a step back, leaving Burwell looking like he stepped forward for the assignment, or whether Burwell is just the designated anti-establishment writer.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 9, 2011 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
it's just his schtick
I don’t know that he was designated that guy so much as born it, and hired for it.
There was at tweet by Goold that referred to Burwell
as “King of the Adverbs” or something to that effect. Made me laugh.
i'm pretty sure the live interview where he said the same thing with no prompting
had no input from his editors.
that’s what I’m sayin’.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Saw Burwell as the opening word and didn't read any further
certain I missed nothing.
by RollBirdsRoll on Dec 9, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
St. Louis did beat Anaheim, at least.
our own number 5 made it on fespn, using terms like “upside”
…of course he was referring to Prince Fielder, but hey. ice puck player.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
That was kind of cool, actually,
to see Jackman doing baseball analysis.
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 9:44 AM EST up reply actions
with the nice little "Cardinals season ticket holder" bit.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
aww
anyone care to fill me in with details? I don’t watch ESPN unless, well, I guess unless we just won the world series because thats the last time I watched for more than 30 seconds
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
i bet it's on FSM somewhere
it fights my computer, though.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I think I will be ok till Pujols says
The Cardinals didn’t respect him enough so he had to leave and it wasn’t about the money.
I'm kind of hoping he does play the respect card.
I already have a column written in my head for when he does.
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 9:50 AM EST up reply actions
I don't know why he doesn't just come out and say that after 11 years he was highly annoyed with DeWitt...
and he wanted a new experience. People would understand that to some degree.
Sign Roy O
Yeah
Except that it has the really annoying situation of NOT BEING TRUE.
I hope that he plays the respect card, it would make it far easier for me to hate his guts if he tries to make this about the Cardinals instead of about himself. Because this was all about Pujols and his ego. Period.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Which is why I hate the narrative that is now being given by some national talk types
That the Cards should have locked him up 2-3 years ago. Really? At what cost? 10-300? Because I don’t think you could have gotten it done for any less.
If it was possible,
then why would Mozeliak answer the question about why Pujols wasn’t locked up 2-3 years ago by saying they’d have to ask Pujols’s representation?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
If they had paid him $25 million for 2010-11 instead of $16 million...
would Berkman have been feasible? It’s pretty clear that having Pujols at a discount and using the extra money in a somewhat effective way lead to the championship.
Sign Roy O
How do you know it's not true?
It’s been reported that he had a number of gripes with the club, just anyone would after 11 years.
Sign Roy O
If he comes out and lays any blame at the feet of the organization that offered him the second largest contract tendered to any major league player
prior to him being a free agent, then fuck him. Seriously.
Be a man, take responsibility for your actions. You chose to leave town, YOU chose to take a pay increase, YOU chose to tarnish your legacy in St. Louis by leaving. DON’T blame someone else for the decision that YOU made. Stand up and be a man.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
He wouldn't be blaming anyone...
sometimes you just need to work in a different place with different people.
Sign Roy O
You can't possibly believe this line of BS, can you?
I think we’re now trying to rationalize this entire situation when what we should be doing is moving on.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
I'm not rationalizing anything...
there have been a couple different reports that he had some seemingly minor grievances with the club, he was given the opportunity to come back, and he didn’t take it. Obviously he wanted to play somewhere else. I’m just pointing out that it would be okay for him to explain his decision by saying he wanted a new place with new people.
Sign Roy O
I just don't see why people are trying to throw Albert under the bus
Wasn’t it pretty much assumed that if some non-total loser team blew the Cards’ offer away that Pujols was going to go?
Maybe it’s because I view 98% of the public statements made by players, agents, GMs, and owners as just total PR bs, but as much as I wanted Albert to stay, I just can’t bring myself to be mad at anyone in this situation.
I'm not trying to throw him under the bus...
but if he throws the Cardinal organization under the bus for his decision, I reserve the right to chuck his ass under there too.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
I have to say we know essentially nothing about what went on behind closed doors.
which would pretty much fall under the ‘respect’ category.
I can’t see how we can judge him either way, if he perceived that the Cardinals were doing business one way, and other organizations were doing business in another way.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I can judge him by what he says...
and if he chooses to blame the organization for his decision to leave, well, then I have a real problem with that. I think the “respect” thing is totally bullshit. This is business, and when you negotiate with a hard line, like Pujols and Lozano did, then some feeling are going to get hurt. No reason to act like a 13 year old girl about it.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
But what changed in the last 2 years?
2 years ago AP said:
“Do I want to be in St. Louis forever? Of course. People from other teams want to play in St. Louis, and they’re jealous that we’re in St. Louis because the fans are unbelievable. So why would you want to leave a place like St. Louis to go somewhere else and make $3 million or $4 more million a year? It’s not about the money. I already got my money. It’s about winning, and that’s it.”
Since that time the Cards won a world series, offered him a 9 year 200 million contract and then a 10 year 210 million contract.
What changed from Albert’s perspective? They signed that bastard Lance Berkman? or Matt Holliday? I thought it was all about winning?
Sorry I’m with fourstick — he can’t play the “no respect” card.
Oh he can,
but if he does, he’s forever burned his bridges with me, and I hope, with the rest of Cardinal nation. Take responsibility for your actions and take your lumps. They’re deserved.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
"It's not about the money"
#yeahrightmang
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
what changed from Albert's perspective?
are you guys really going to argue that you understand and essentially know Albert’s perspective? how do you know, 100%, that the Cards did nothing but kiss his ass?
yeah, reasoning ahead of the facts. that’s awfully rational. we are looking at it as fans, from a purely contract perspective. there is no way in hell that we know anything about two years of negotiations. all we have is what came out of the black box.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Why are you so adamant about blaming the team?
I really don’t understand this.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
I wouldn't see this as an adamant defense of Pujols
rather a “we don’t know all the facts, so let’s not trash a guy who gave us so much”
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I never said anything about blaming the team.
I’m pretty adamant about using actual facts that we have. we do not and cannot know his actual criteria for making his decision, especially since it apparently happened over the course of two years.
I do not understand how you can hold him accountable for actions without understanding what they are, and/or harping on only the scant publicly available information. unless you claim to understand what they are, in which case feel free to share those additional tidbits.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Sorry, I don't see how leaving tarnishes a legacy
Staying from 2012 would have built his legacy, but I don’t see how leaving tarnishes the great things he did from 2001 to 2011.
I have a real problem with people who don't take responsibility for their actions
when the ball was entirely in their court. Had the Cardinals offer been a sever underpay, say $160M for 10 years, then he could play that card. But when he was offered more money that all but one player in the history of the game to stay put, he can’t then come out and say he felt “disrespected”.
We were going to pay him for what he’s likely worth over the life of the contract. The Angels seem to be paying him for the last 10 years and hoping he doesn’t fall off a cliff offensively
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Responsibility for what? He didn't owe the Cardinals anything.
This isn’t a marriage. He isn’t cheating on us with Anaheim. Once he became a free agent, he was perfectly within his rights to leave.
this is where I'm at
It was business, plain and simple. Think of his other endeavors – his charity golf tourney, for example – going to raise a lot more money and be much more higher profile out in California.
If a different company offered you $30,000 more to do exactly what you do now, but for them, would you stay where you’re at to finish your career there?
Baseball is the man’s job. No more, no less.
Again, I don't begrudge him his decision.
All I ask is that he take responsibility for the decision instead of using the cop-out that the Cardinal organization didn’t “respect” him.
He hasn’t done so…yet. But if that’s the story that comes out of this whole thing, that he felt disrespected and felt that he wasn’t a “priority” for the organization, then he’s clearly an ego driven assclown who conveniently ignores a ton of facts to the contrary.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Agreed.
“Disrepsect” would be a cop-out, and I would hope that he’s intelligent enough (or at least has the right PR advisor to tell him) not to use it.
If he comes out and says it was a business decision and I did what I thought was best for _______ (myself and my family, my career, my other endeavors, etc) then I would be alright with it.
And that's fine
But if his reason for leaving is to describe the Cardinal organization as not respecting him, then I have a real problem with that.
You seem to be missing the point here, so it’s best to just end this discussion.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Disrespect could be anything from the choice
of manager, treatment of his friends, the way the team was portraying the negtiation in the media, or just the way Lozano was presenting the Cards approach.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Maybe it's just my jaded grew-up-in-the-1990's self showing
But as I said elsewhere in the thread, I consider about 98% of public statements made by athletes, GMs, agents, and owners regarding contracts as total PR bs.
Sorry -- if this is the case, then why were we even in the running?
Oh, because he didn’t want to fuck over the only organization that might offer him what he wanted in terms of money and years.
Let’s stop pretending that this wasn’t Albert Pujols’ decision and that he was somehow “forced” into going somewhere else because he hates upper management. I don’t buy it. It’s a cop out.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
I've had it up to here with your provel bigotry, Fritz!
St. Louis pizza is good pizza, damn it, and I don’t care who knows I think so!
(I will recommend Cecil Whitaker’s over Imo’s, though, every day of the week. Particularly if a given CW location has shrimp, which is one of my very favourite pizzas.)
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 9:56 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
More like proveLOL.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
by Alxfritz on Dec 9, 2011 9:57 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
This should be a bannable offense.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Future Mrs. David Freese ♥
St. Louis Cardinals 2011 World Series Champions
What part of what I said?
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 9:58 AM EST up reply actions
Dissing STL pizza.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Future Mrs. David Freese ♥
St. Louis Cardinals 2011 World Series Champions
Ah, I see.
I agree.
Consider this your warning, Fritz. One more negative word about our pizza and you’re gone, buddy.
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
Hmm.
Well now I’m torn. I still want to ban you, but your new website venture promises to deliver deliciousness in very intriguing fashion.
Damn. I don’t know what to do.
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 10:08 AM EST up reply actions
Or maybe it's a Lozano
(Not to be confused with lonza, which is delicious and might very well make a good pizza topping)
isn't CW the place you can just walk in and pick up a predone pizza?
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 9:58 AM EST up reply actions
yeah that.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 10:00 AM EST up reply actions
That's Little Caesar's.
Cecil Whitaker’s is basically just a better version of Imo’s.
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 10:00 AM EST up reply actions
yeah, derp.
CW is good, i agree.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
Pretty sure not.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Future Mrs. David Freese ♥
St. Louis Cardinals 2011 World Series Champions
i bet that you'll soon have way more such material to write about
probably about the time he hits spring cam and talks to teammates, stuff is going to start leaking
it’ll be a shitstorm
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
I kind of get that feeling too.
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
I'm dreading it, personally
I like to believe in my own version of events which has fewer cringes than I fear reality may.
What Will Leitch said
I think this article highlights the ongoing division between the way fans approach baseball following Moneyball and Sabermetrics. In baseball terms, one can easily say that the Angels contract is a bad baseball decision. That Pujols ultimately is nothing more than a big WAR producer, and that WAR can be recovered through other, cheaper players.
Then the other side says that baseball has intangibles that stat-heads pretend don’t exist.
As Leitch says, a big part of the loss here is the intangible synergy between Pujols and this franchise. It’s why stat-heads can say that the Cards dodged a bullet in refusing to outbid the Angels, but everyone still will say that this sucks.
I think Dan captured this well yesterday.
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
Prediction: The Next Time Pujols Plays at Busch, he'll get a standing O
Forgot to add that.
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
Eh, that's not that impressive.
The guys who screen the infield occasionally get standing ovations too.
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 9:54 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
In St. L maybe
in Philly and maybe Chicago, they’d throw trash at him
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
That's what I mean.
St. Louis fans give standing ovations for EVERYTHING.
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 9:59 AM EST up reply actions
e.g., bunts. All bunts.
Kumar: I don't know man, I lose my touch, man.
Dignan: Did you ever have a touch to lose, man?
Leitch reads VEB, he linked to it in his article
I just read his book “Are We Winning”, about going to a Cards/Cubs game with his dad. Pretty funny.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
but he's too good to install a signal, it seems.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
As far as Prince Fielder goes:
I think you bring up some valid concerns, Mr. UpBaby, but I would respond by stating that even though his OPS+ dipped in each of those years, his walk rate has risen from around 12% his first 3 seasons to consistently 15% or better in his last three seasons. To me, that seems like a significant skills change. If I’m looking to sign him long term (6 years), the fact that he can hit 30 homers and walk 100 times, as his downside risk, makes me feel pretty good about him being able to at least match the value of his deal as long as it’s shorter than 6 years.
Also, Fielder, unlike Pujols, has a legitimate shot to get a 4-5 year deal at age 33 from an AL club as a DH, which would make him far more likely to accept fewer years for a high AAV. I thought he was crazy to turn down the 6Y$120M that he was reportedly offered by Milwaukee on purely financial terms, but I think it’s possible that Prince sees the writing on the wall in Milwaukee: The cupboard in the minors is bare, and it’s quite possible that in two years, he, Braun, and Gallardo are the only guys left on the team from this years squad.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
4/100!!!!!
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 9:58 AM EST up reply actions
Oh, and FYI about his body type:
This guy has a similar body type and has been a successful 3TO guy into his late 30’s, and if you look at his production from ’98 to ’04 (age 28-34) I think you could see a similar level of production from Prince over the next 6 years.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
his downside risk isn't adequately characterized as "hitting 30 home runs and walking 100 times"
that’s exactly what I was trying to get at. his downside risk is being an immobile first baseman with a 130-135 OPS+ in a league where the 1B tOPS+ is 125. it’s great that it’s OBP-heavy, but I think we might be overrating him simply by his proximity to ryan howard. he had a 2.1 WAR season four years ago, and a 3.5 WAR season in 2010, and he’s unlikely to stop giving up a win a year in the field and on the bases as he gets older. that’s the risk.
as for your other comment I don’t think thome’s a very good comp at all—he’s got four inches on fielder and has never been nearly as round or heavy, and at 27 he was a better, more consistent hitter (while drawing somewhat more unintentional walks) than fielder’s been. I’m skeptical of the people who are convinced he’ll be done at 30 because he’s fat, but a comp that far afield isn’t a credit to that skepticism.
I don't know that this is entirely true:
his downside risk is being an immobile first baseman with a 130-135 OPS+ in a league where the 1B tOPS+ is 125.
Is this really likely in the next 6 seasons? I mean, I would guess his 3 year projection would be considerably higher than this, and the guy’s never been hurt his whole career. I think there’s WAY too much being made about his weight, when there are a number of husky ballplayers who were really productive into their mid-30’s.
Mo Vaughn was taller too. I mean, are we really discounting all comparisons to bigger bodied individuals on the basis of height? That really seems like more of a cop out that it does good analysis.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
I'm not doing this anywhere
in fact, I specifically say in the piece that I’m not doing this, so I’m not sure who this is directed at. all I’m saying is that if you’re going to bring body type into it, jim thome is a bad comp, being both considerably taller (from “short for a modern-day slugger” to “a modern-day slugger”) and somewhat less heavy besides.
but the fact is that fielder has already been that guy twice in five seasons as The Price Fielder. doesn’t matter how fat he is, I’m just saying this thing he’s done twice, including in 2010, is something he’s likely to do again as he ages. I don’t see how that’s controversial; even if you don’t imagine he’ll age badly, as a guy who was good early with old-players’-skills I think the null hypothesis is that he probably doesn’t have another gear he’s going to kick into at 28.
Over the next 6 seasons, which is all I'm interested in signing him for
I don’t see any reason why he’s not a .280/.400/.500 hitter, at the worst, over that entire 6 season stretch. Over 6 seasons, that’s worth around $120M on the open market even if he’s giving back 5-7 runs a season on defense.
I think there’s a lot of reasons to think that 2010 was a total aberration when looking at his peripherals, and the fact that his Swinging Strikes have declined as his contact rate has gone up is also a good sign.
For the next 6 seasons, I don’t think he’s as big a risk as Albert Pujols is, as Albert’s got a lot of nagging injuries that could severely limit his production in the near future. Fielder doesn’t have any of those problems, yet we’re nagging him about his weight all the time.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
in this nebulous we's defense
because I don’t really know who it is, fielder’s weight, or at least things commonly associated with his weight, are already having as much an effect on his career as pujols’s gimpiness—10 or more runs lost as a baserunner/first baseman every year.
going forward you’re just much more optimistic about his true level of performance than I am, and I’m not sure we’re going to find a way around that. mainly I’m just confused as to who it is you’re tilting at about this weight thing—I wouldn’t trust him to be a .900 guy over the course of the deal if he were jim thome-shaped, either.
no such thing as an aberration
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
Why would Fielder come to STL?
to replace Pujols? To be continually compared to Pujols? I can’t see how Mo can pay him (and Boras) enough.
Also, I don't think people would actually expect Prince to "replace" Albert
If anything, coming to St. Louis after Albert might take pressure off of him. Everybody knows he couldn’t fill those shoes so he wouldn’t have to worry about being the “franchise guy” here.
So, money, chance to win, lack of unrealistic expectations… hm, who does that remind me of.
He would almost certainly be the highest paid guy on the team
The pressure would be on to perform from day 1.
It would be normal expensive free agent pressure
I really don’t think most people would expect him to replace Pujols other than a few dumb fans, the same kind of fans who think Holliday sucks.
No, but they'll expect him to be Prince Fielder
which isn’t exactly setting the expectations that much below what Albert would have done.
there might be a point where prince fielder is actually better than pujols
maybe just for a season or two
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
I think Fielder's a good player
But realistically he projects at about 4.5 WAR next year, whereas Craig projects at around 2.5 WAR. Craig is also under team control for the next 4 years. I don’t wanna pay Fielder 25 million a year to be a 2 WAR upgrade over Craig and lose a draft pick.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
It would be hilarious if he failed the
Physical.
by setitan on Dec 9, 2011 10:01 AM EST via mobile reply actions
OT: I had regular come in today telling me he wasn't coming back anymore
Because he is selling his business. He said he is heavily invested in Iraqi Dinar’s and they would be revalued soon. He would become a multi-millionaire over night. I was just thinking you got to be kidding me.
Googling "revaluation is imminent"
Pulls up so much stuff over the years
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 9, 2011 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
who moves into the 3 spot in the lineup?
holliday would be the obvious choice i presume?
maybe finally people will start noticing that he’s a star player too now just “protection” for that guy who left us for 254 mil
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
i've seen a lot of holliday hate the past 24 hours...
and it’s really getting old. i mean, i hate 6 WAR outfielders as much as the next guy, but come on.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
This.
Never understand the Holliday bashing/hate
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
no kidding.
It seems like people forget that he was an essential part of getting us to that world series, oh and that he made this play!
Holliday is awesome. He has been a great player for the Cardinals. I feel he will continue to be a great player. If he is to be the “face of the franchise” now, I am more than comfortable with that!
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Holliday hate
And those people who still insist that the Cards overpaid for him? Who do they think they are kidding? If Holliday was a free agent now, he would be getting 160MM+ from somebody.
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!
nope he can't bring in the latin fans
/not about race
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Great appeal to plastic-loving nerds, though
/anti Legoitism
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
what's there to hate on holliday?
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
It's just frustrating and painful
When you walk into the living room where your kids have been playing and step on him in your bare feet.
by jestanley on Dec 9, 2011 11:02 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
people think he's soft and "unclutch"
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
He wasn't on the roster
when we won this last one. It is what it is.
Because Matheny
by WyoCardsFan on Dec 9, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
12 in '12, bitch.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
If you do a search for "Rollins" on this page...
It only comes up once, which I’m surprised by. We don’t need a first baseman, we have Lance there now and Craig/Adams in the pipeline. At this point, we literally don’t have a SS, and there’s still an elite one on the FA market. If it were possible for something to make too much sense, signing Jimmy Rollins with some of the leftover Albert money is it, IMO.
I would say to give the rest to Mike Gonzalez to be Loogy 1A, Coco Crisp to split time with Jay, and then see what it would take to extend Yadi.
FWIW, Fangraphs is talking about gettig Beltran to start in RF while Craig is hurt, then having him shuffle between CF and RF when Torty’s dad comes back. Interesting idea.
"The Mollusk" makes me want to rail LSD crystals off my friends' sternum. Rage."
by ICEYhawtSTUNNAZ on Dec 9, 2011 10:05 AM EST reply actions
Question: how old do you think Jimmy Rollins is?
Second question: how long a contract do you think he is going to demand?
Now, after answering those two question, do you really still think Rollins makes too much sense?
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
Third question: What is Jimmy Rollins's combined slash line for the last three seasons?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Absolutely.
His OPS+ this past season was 101, which is pretty great for a SS, but the previous two seasons it was in the 80s, I believe. Combine that with declining defense, and I just don’t think he’s a great bet.
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
I agree.
Rollins does not interest me that much. I think Furcal would come at a shorter and cheaper deal with the same offensive upside. Right now, I’d be in on Furcal and Beltran. If Furcal can be had one a one-year contract with an option year, I’d do it. If not, I’d start the season with Greene and see how the SS trade market evolves in 2012. With Craig’s injury, I’d be okay with signing Beltran on a two-year deal, too. If Beltran signs for more years than that, it wouldn’t be with me.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Are we looking at the same stats?
Jimmy Rollins UZR (arbitrary 5-year period):
2007-2.4
2008-15.2
2009-5
2010-12.3
2011-3.1
wOBA (arbitrary 5-year cutoff)
2007-.378
2008-.357
2009-.316
2010-.317
2011-.329
WAR
2007-6.9
2008-5.6
2009-3
2010-2.5
2011-3.8
I think the decline you are seeing is an injury-shortened down year. I get that he’s a little older, but he bounced back from an injury in a pretty major way last season, we have the money, and a gaping hole at SS, both right now and in the future (can Ryan Jackson hit?). I don’t know how realistic it is, but I’d snap hip up at 4/50 with a team option in a heartbeat.
"The Mollusk" makes me want to rail LSD crystals off my friends' sternum. Rage."
by ICEYhawtSTUNNAZ on Dec 9, 2011 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
Please name the last SS
who averaged 3 WAR from age 34 – 39 while staying at the position. Ozzie couldn’t do it. Jeter might, but it took a 7 WAR season in ’09 to give him a legit shot at it.
Ryan Jackson might be worth 1.5 WAR per season with just his glove alone.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Also
walk rate above career average last year. strikeout rate below career average last year. BABIP was WAY below career average last year.
-good reason to expect significant rebound in 2012?
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
What you post supports the proposition that Jimmy Rollins is a player in decline.
Mid-to-late-30s middle infielders are notorious for having marked declines in range and offensive production. Rollins has already started his. I don’t want the Cardinals to pay him to finish it. Let the Phillies, they have a wonderful menagerie of aging stars. He’ll fit right in.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
If we could get Rollins or Furcal for essentially the same, nice, short contract I might choose Rollins
But that’s never gonna happen. Rollins will just take too much to get.
I'd rather have Furcal because I think his contract is likely to be for fewer years and less money.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 9, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly
I’m really, really doubtful that Rollins’ upgrade would be worth the cost. Furthermore, Furcal could end up basically just as good next year.
Alright, those are valid points
I disagree, but its a perfectly reasonable position
"The Mollusk" makes me want to rail LSD crystals off my friends' sternum. Rage."
by ICEYhawtSTUNNAZ on Dec 9, 2011 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
well, his listed age is 33
who knows how old he really is
by DanUpBaby on Dec 9, 2011 10:16 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I think we should start treating all players this way.
Every single one of them, we’ll question how old they are, and force them to produce birth certificates. Which we will then claim were doctored.
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
I have it on relatively good authority that Rollins was born in the Panama Canal zone...
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I heard John McCain was his father
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 9, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I probably shouldn't have made that joke.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I think the days of Jimmy Rollins being an elite SS are over
9.3 WAR from 2009-2011 is 9th amongst MLB shortstops. Granted those numbers are diminished by his 2010 season where he only played in 88 games, but I see little reason why we should give a 33-year-old SS the benefit of the doubt on the injury front.
Moreover, it has been widely reported he is holding out for a 5-year deal. Gross.
He did make this commercial.
It is seriously one of my favorites.
But, it has been years since he has put out that performance!
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
That one is fantastic
The kicker for me is the pause where he doesn’t actually say anything between being hit. Perfect.
.

"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
Meaning, the money they threw at us was so tempting that we were willing
to throw away the love you fans gave us, and disregard all of the prior statements we made about wanting to be Cardinals for life.
Thanks, St. Louis, you made it hard to take that extra 3-4 million a year, God bless and #$%! you all.
Sorry… still pissed and irrational this am.
by fuegophil on Dec 9, 2011 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Krusty:
“Oh man, they drove a dump truck filled with money up to my house!”
;=8)
2011 World Series Champions!
And that is NERTLERB!!!!!!!!!!
:=8D
Favorite Krusty exchange:
Bart: … and one of the kids got eaten by a bear!
Krusty: Oh God!
Bart: Well, actually the bear only ate his hat.
Krusty: Was it a nice hat?
Bart: Oh yeah.
Krusty. Oh God!
too soon
go count your money
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Dec 9, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
"my decision to leave has been incredibly difficult, and your support is the biggest reason why"
what a crock of bullshit.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
"my decision has been incredibly difficult...
fortunately, I have already installed a pool of gold coins in my house. Swimming in this pool will greatly ease the difficulty of this decision. I am rich. bitch."
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
"My decision to leave was so incredibly difficult, I took the offer within 2 hours of learning about it."
Does not sound so legit.
WWCD? CDGAF.
For what it's worth, according to the Nightengale USA Today piece,
The Angels made the offer Wednesday night, Pujols and his wife prayed on it, and then he called Lazano at 7:00 a.m. and told him that the Angels
“The Angels,” he said, “are the ones tugging on my heart.”
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
he is with the Angels now...so he is dead to us
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I said from the start...
That if he took the highest $$$ contract and then said his decision was based off prayer / a message from heaven, that my “Dude is hella disingenuous” opinion on him would be set in stone (yeah, I know the Marlins’ offer was reportedly higher, but the missing NTC made it a non-offer more or less).
It actually makes me sad to read that. I didn’t really want to think of him like that.
WWCD? CDGAF.
Real
I don’t know if it is real, but Albert didn’t write this…However, I expect Albert to be very classy and to thank everyone in St. Louis for being so great…yadda, yadda, yadda.
I wish he would just come out and say: “Screw you guys, I got paid!!!”
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!
To Albert and whomever:
I want to thank each of you sincerely from the bottom of my heart for the prime years of your career that the Cardinals got for a bargain, and that I got to witness, and which the Angels are now paying you out their collective ass for. I am truly humbled and grateful I got to see you in your prime before you became an even slower, declining shell of your former self being paid a king’s ransom to be a designated hitter in the American League. I’ll be eternally grateful for the memories of championships and walk off home runs.
The decision to tell you to kiss my entire ass was not incredibly difficult, since you pretty much decided to shit on the team, the city and the fans that have reached out and embraced you in order to chase every last dollar you could squeeze out of whatever sucker would pay it.
The St. Louis Cardinals have given me a lifetime of memories and moments I’ll not forget, and the birds on the Bat will do just that going forward in this new chapter in their storied life, just as they did in the 31 years I was a supporter of this team before you showed up.
Please feel free to count your money while screwing yourself sideways with tightly rolled stacks of hundred dollar bills.
Thank You,
RollBirdsRoll
by RollBirdsRoll on Dec 9, 2011 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
heh
don’t necessarily agree with the sentiment, but rec’d for awesomeness
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
I hope
they don’t get crazy and start signing injury prone guys like Beltran and Furcal for high-price deals just because they have some extra money to toss around. I’d much rather see them sign a few small parts and give Craig a shot in RF. Maybe a backup OF and get Punto back for his glovework. But Mo – PLEASE do not start signing every ex-big name guy out there just because Albert left you out behind the gym at Prom with your pants down. Pull ’em up and go find the girl that had too much to drink and just needs a cheap ride home.
when will Albert have his press conference?
Cards fan in Seoul.
Albert Pujols is the hero saint louis deserves, but not the one it can afford right now. So we'll strike him out out because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's an A-Rod
by letsgostlcardinals on Dec 9, 2011 10:09 AM EST reply actions
Spread the Payroll
Problem is…without trades, what is worth buying out there? Rollins? (5 years of decline for likely about 15MM per.) Fielder? (If they wouldn’t sign Pujols, they won’t sign Fielder) Other than that, what is interesting out there? There are a few guys….Beltran, Ludwick, Furcal, …etc. but nothing really exciting.
Maybe there are some guys who could be had in trade, but they would likely cost the guys you don’t want to give up…I’m stumped.
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!
Oswalt, Beltran, and Furcal all improve the team...
all could be had for $30 million. As far as trades go, I’d be beating down the door for Hardy, Hanley, Asdrubal Cabrera…
Sign Roy O
I'm not too interested in Oswalt.
2011: 6.02 K/9, 2.14 BB/9, 3.69 ERA, 3.44 FIP, 3.95 xFIP
It makes me wonder if his nagging back problems have finally caught up to him now in the twilight of his career and it he will be the truly elite pitcher he once was. Maybe he will bounce back and strike out 8+ per 9 innings. If so, that’d be great. Of course, signing Oswalt also means getting Lohse or Westbrook to okay a trade.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Yeah...
I think it would be tough with Lohse, but doable with Westy. I could be totally wrong, but you just tell Westbrook he’s the mop-up guy/6th starter or he can accept a trade and be a starter with someone else. I wouldn’t mind having him in reserve. That would allow Lynn and Rzep to stay in the pen and Miller to stay in Memphis.
Sign Roy O
Hardy and Cabrera?
Those guys aren’t going anywhere. Hell, the Indians were supposedly in on Fielder — why in the hell would they be dealing Cabrera? Hardy just re-upped in Baltimore when he could have been a free agent and probably made more money. I don’t think Baltimore is looking to deal him at this time. We should have gotten Hardy instead of Theriot last offseason — put that one on our front office as a major boner in terms of talent evaluation.
I don’t see why we need Oswalt at any price on a multi-year deal. Just seems like a stupid signing when that money could be saved to extend Wainwright. We have a full staff of pitchers going into next season, and a ton of pitching depth in the minors. Signing a pitcher, even one as good as Oswalt, is a waste of resources, imo.
I think Beltran would be a good signing, but I would point out that he’s not a guy who can play CF anymore. The Mets moved him off the position in favor of Angel fucking Pagan last season. He would probably cost us 10+ runs were he to play out there everyday, and he takes AB’s from Craig if he has to play RF. If we’re reasonably sure that he can play CF and not be terrible, then he’d be a great signing. But he was a below average defender in RF last year, so that doesn’t make me too optimistic.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
I have no knowledge of the O's
thinking at all, but keep in mind that Hardy was re-signed by Dan Duquette’s predecessor. We don’t know what Duquette thinks of him. OTOH, I can’t remember any previous examples of a player being traded immediately after signing a new multi-year contract.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 9, 2011 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
The O's are clearly many years from competing...
if they’re willing to trade Adam Jones I don’t know why a 30 year old Hardy would be untouchable. Cabrera is going into his fifth season and has communicated that he’s not interested in an extension – that means he’ll likely be traded within the next 1.5 years. Granted, next offseason is probably more likely. But if we offered some combination of Martinez, Cox, Adams, Taveras, Swagerty etc they might listen.
Sign Roy O
With Craig's health up in the air,
I’d explore signing Beltran. With his health history, there will be enough PAs to go around. Olney or someone tweeted that clubs were concerned over his medicals. I wouldn’t sign him for anything over two years, though, and would be okay if he signed elsewhere. But it is definitely worth exploring, in my mind. If the medicals are as bad as inferred, then I wouldn’t sign him.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
In the AAA phase of the Rule V
The Cardinals got Shooter Hunt, RHP from New Britain (MIN). He is a former 1st round pick with good stuff no control. Hopefully a change in scenery and some mechanics over hall will set him on the straight path.
Is his name really Shooter Hunt or are you making this up?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Nope.
That’s really his name.
I remember he was one of the very first draft prospect writeup I ever did.
I can do no wrong, for I do not know what it is.
by the red baron on Dec 9, 2011 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
From Tulane or something?
I think I recall you (or someone) pointing out the insane workload his college coach was putting on him.
by Merry CRasmus on Dec 9, 2011 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
Here's hoping that we can pair him with Stetson Allie
after picking him up via trade sometime next season.
We’ll have our own Wild West posse down on the farm: Shooter, Stetson, and Shelby.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
One of these three can throw strikes!
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Having Shooter and Stetson in our bullpen
would be a shitload of fun — two cowboys who throw 100 mph.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Holy cow! Look at Shooter Hunt's walk rates!
2008®: 2.84
2008 (A): 7.76
2009®: 15.00
2009®: 16.81
2010 (A+): 11.23
2011 (A+): 12.87
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Huston Street has been ok....
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Yeah, but I had no idea it was that bad.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
That's not control problems
That’s literally not knowing where the ball is going when it leaves your hand.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
by fourstick on Dec 9, 2011 11:17 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i think there's a name for that
it’s called Francisco Samuel
by tehzachatak on Dec 9, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Francisco!!!
He’ll be the token latin american on our Wild West bullpen squad!
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
we need Huston Street too
Huston, Shelby, Shooter, Stetson, and Francisco. damn, that’s a band of cowboys.
Pfft
Try Gary Daley or, more currently, Seth Blair. KNOW YOUR BROKEN PITCHING PROSPECTS VEB! I AM DISAPPOINT.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
what a badass name
Cards fan in Seoul.
Albert Pujols is the hero saint louis deserves, but not the one it can afford right now. So we'll strike him out out because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's an A-Rod
by letsgostlcardinals on Dec 9, 2011 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
I really liked him a lot at the time
Think he’d be a really, really solid relief option.
Something clever...
So...
Will Albert go the the Hall as a Cardinal or Angel?
ask him after his first trip to saint louis in 2013
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
He has no say in the matter.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
learn something new every day.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
It's the Wade Boggs rule.
I believe it was in Boggs’s contract with Tampa Bay that he go into the Hall as a Devil Ray. He followed through on it and the Hall of Fame changed the rule so that the Hall chooses. For example, Gary Carter wanted to go in as a Met but I believe the Hall put him in an Expos cap on the plaque.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
anyway, al will return to the cards next year
after batting .187 with 9 homers and 37 rbi in 2012, the angels will release him but still eat his contract. the cards will sign him for 2 cents on the dollar. he will play out his career in the Lou, averaging 33 homers and 105 rbi and helping the birds on the bat win 3 more WS titles. and he will go in as a cardinal
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
whichever flavor you like
drink up! the sky will soon fill with butterflies and angels and all your dreams will come true
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
actually, "angels" was probably not the best fantasy creature...
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
got it.
seems wrong that a team would ever put a player into a situation like that.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
i'm not up to date on my rays history...
but i’ll assume their ownership and front office sucked for a few years.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
really?
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
how many days has this come up this week?
at least 3
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Dawson's best years were in Montreal but he went in as a Cub.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
It really is...
Dawson played his age 21-31 seasons with the Expos, then went to the Cubs for his age 32-37 seasons. His age 41 season was his last in the big leagues.
Sign Roy O
I always thought of Dawson as a Cub
I was too young to remember the years with the Expos i guess. Didn’t realize he played that long with them.
I wasn't around at the time, so I don't know
but I think it matters whether a player was considered a hall of famer at the time. dawson’s barely considered a hall of famer now, so his time in montreal—which came before what the msm saw and might still see as his best season, 1987—didn’t already come with all the hall of fame trappings.
pujols has been a surefire hall of famer for a few years now, and has almost certainly won the majority of his career hardware as a cardinal. I think that will make the difference.
Exactly
Pujols as a Hall of Famer is a foregone conclusion, and that conclusion was made while he was a Cardinal. I’d be very surprised if he goes in as an Angel, regardless of what records he ends up breaking.
I want him to go in as an Angel.
I also hope that No. 5 is not retired.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Really?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Yes.
If your wife left you, married another guy, took his name, and then had a provision in her will that your last name be on her tombstone, it would be awkward and weird and feel wrong. This is how I feel about Pujols wearing a “STL” cap on his Cooperstown plaque. He left. I wish him the HR record and more. But I’d prefer a clean break. He chose the Angels over the Cardinals. He is their player now.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
It is insane. So is the girlfriend analogy.
But that’s the best I could come up with right now. Pujols will break every record he breaks and reach every landmark he reaches as an Angel. Every highlight—except of his two career World Series championships and three of his five MVPs—will be as an Angel. 500 home runs, 600 home runs, 3,000 hits, etc. He chose to leave the Cardinals via free agency and that means something to me. It tells me that he did not want his legacy to be as a Cardinal. Because he will reach all of these historical markers of greatness as an Angel, I say let him go in as an Angel—the organization he chose over St. Louis.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 9, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
Right, I feel much differently now about AP than someone like Carp
Who while he was not drafted by STL, came here and chose to stay here. He gets a bit more of my adulation now.
Even if he did choose all of this like you say
It’s not his decision. It makes more sense to put him in the Hall as a Cardinal, to me, no matter what happens.
But the hall is intended to reflect the player/team relationship
That relationship between Albert and the Cardinals has been, in some ways, breached.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
We will still feel this strongly about it way 15 years from now?
Assuming 10 years with Anaheim ends in his retirement.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
Excessive way in that.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
I don't know about you
but I’ve never forgiven Ankiel for becoming a hitter or Renteria for going to Boston. I can hold a mothertrucking grudge.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
That's the problem I have with this stuff about the HOF and retiring numbers
Seems too close to holding grudges for my tastes.
Ok then...
(Ankiel? Really?)
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
i think this is better phrased as
“ankiel failing as a pitcher”. once that was done, i was fine with him trying to come back as a hitter.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
Is it really intended to reflect that?
I’m not being rhetorical here, I’m just confused by what you mean. I think of the Hall of Fame as simply recognizing the great players for their accomplishments. Sure,the relationship with the team is an integral part. How does his leaving for the Angels erase the truly great part of his career? It just seems like too much in my opinion to not put him in as a Cardinal (again, assuming he ages and declines like normal players).
One aspect of this conversation that is difficult
is talking about his next 10 years as a hypothetical.
Still, the whole question about what cap he will wear is reflective of his association with a team. I’m not sure how you could argue that him going to another team hasn’t had an adverse impact on his legacy with St. Louis if only for the “what might have been” part of it.
I’m not as passionate about this as bgh, namely because the HOF means little to me, but I completely understand where he is coming from.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
I guess I lean more towards on-the-field greatness when it comes to the Hall
And, again, I understand where you guys are coming from much better now. I am totally find just disagreeing about it, I didn’t expect to convince anybody to change their mind.
in my mind
Players owe fans nothing.
Fans pay the owners.
Owners pay the players.
Therefor, the owners are the ones indebted to the fans. And if Mr. DeWitt once me to keep showing up to games, then he needs to keep fielding a competent team.
The players are indebted to the owners. They owe it to them to show up, and play their best possible game.
So when something like this happens, I get sad. But I’m not mad at the player.
Grit != flat out sucking.
I just don't get the sentiment that by leaving he's damaged his legacy
Yes, he’s reduced his future legacy, but I just don’t see how leaving takes away from all the awesomeness that was 2001-2011.
Really?
I’m totally baffled by this. He was drawing comparisons to Stan Musial up until yesterday. That will never happen again. How is that not damage to his legacy?
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
I write this as someone who has almost no appreciation for baseball history, nonetheless.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
Again, I think it remains to be seen what his actual motivations were
I totally get that it’s a missed opportunity to become a Musial-like player in our eyes. I don’t think that’s the same thing, necessarily, as damaging his legacy. It just cuts it short of what it could have been. It might become damaging if we learn that he really did only care about money. I am not willing to assume that yet.
at what point would you be willing to assume that?
i mean, he took the extra 3-4 million per year, in exact opposite of what he said he would do. are you suggesting that there might be underlying conflicts with the FO or something that we don’t know about yet?
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
What did he say he would do?
He said it wasn’t about extra money, it was about winning, right? He didn’t bolt for the Mets or the Marlins or the Cubs. He went to a good team. He can have his cake and eat it too in L.A.
I think it’s more likely that the motivation of becoming a Musial-like figure just wasn’t as strong for him as we all would have liked to believe. It sucks and it makes me sad. But I’m just not ready to burn bridges until more facts are in.
He said he wouldn't leave STL for 3-4 million more per year
Which is what he did.
The quote is in Bernie’s article today. And I posted it above.
That's fair
The actual quote seems a bit more sure than I remembered it. I thought the gist was that winning is more important than money. Now I’m not so sure about that.
Either way, how often do people hold you to things you said two years ago? Regardless of whether you were sincere when you said them?
How are we "holding him to it?"
No one is saying he had to stay. However, I respect him less for saying this and then doing exactly what he said he wouldn’t do while explaining that the Angels were pulling “at his heart” with their 3-4 million dollars per year.
You're holding him to it because you're blaming him for doing something
that he said, two years ago, he wouldn’t do. Maybe “holding him to it” is too strong a phrase, I dunno.
its just that, using fielder as an example,
everytime he’s been asked, he says something like “hey, i’d love to stay if the offer is right, but we’ll just have to see how it goes.”
pujols went way over the top in attempting to convince people that he had an actual desire to stay here if at all possible. either something happened between then and now, or he was simply lying for no apparent reason.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
by IHeartBoog on Dec 9, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think something like what you are saying is probably true
And I am very hesitant to assume somebody was just lying his ass off for years. Not enough evidence right now. Furthermore, I don’t want emotion to cloud my judgment so I’m trying to refrain from making that kind of judgment.
but he was winning here, too
marginally more than the angels are. so those things being roughly equal, it was about the money. and the rest of that quote was all about how great STL is and how other players want to come here and play here and don’t want to leave.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
but what i am wondering is what facts could come in that would cause you to finally believe that it really was about the money?
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
I am not really sure what they would be
Since I don’t know I can’t really answer that. I just know that I’m not quite convinced yet.
Just so everyone knows, I’m far from some naive fanboy who thinks Albert Pujols is a perfect guy or anything. As I say elsewhere, I don’t think Stan Musial could possibly be as perfect as we all like to think of him as being. I wouldn’t be surprised if all those bitter stories you hear from time to time about him not signing autographs for some guy turned out to be true.
What I am is, number one, very forgiving (maybe too much, and I will have to keep this in mind as I decide what I finally think about Pujols in the long run), and two, very skeptical about really knowing what is going on in the mind of someone I don’t know.
I don't think you can separate his legacy with St. Louis
from being a Musial-like figure. That’s just it. He was a Musial-like figure in St. Louis two weeks ago. He would have kept on being a Musial-like figure, or a Ripken-like figure, or a Gwynn-like figure. That was his legacy. Now he has defined his legacy as a guy who left for a club with maybe a similar chance at winning the World Series and for an extra $3 or $4 million per year.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 9, 2011 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
And it clearly wasn't worth it to him to keep that at the expense of what the Angels had to offer
Isn’t that what I said? I am getting confused because I’m trying to carry on more than one conversation at the same time, so I’m not trying to be flippant or something.
Also, on a lighter note, this is tiring! I’m not used to being disagreed with by so many people VEB, it’s a weird feeling let me tell you. A lot more work, too.
my bad i hijacked this convo a bit
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
Heh, it's OK
It’s not often that one has the comfort level to disagree strongly with peers while knowing that the argument will be reasoned, calm, and have no effect on mutual respect. This is why VEB, for the most part, is a shiny beacon of maturity amidst the sea of filth that is the internet.
there's always room
Also, on a lighter note, this is tiring! I’m not used to being disagreed with by so many people VEB, it’s a weird feeling let me tell you. A lot more work, too.
For one more!
Grit != flat out sucking.
I agree on Pujols's valuation of the situation.
And because he valued getting paid more money over ten years more than his legacy as a Cardinal, I think we have to take that into account when characterizing his career and in his honors. That’s my point. Pujols chose the Angels over the Cardinals because of money and the hyper-competitive superathlete’s idea of respect or something. Fair enough. That’s his decision. If it were up to me, as a result of that decision, I wouldn’t retire his number and I want him to be an Angel in the HOF. I don’t think I’ll win you over to my side and that’s fine. Maybe I’ll change my mind when the Cardinals trade for him in 2020 and the Angels eat half of his salary.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 9, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I get that there is a a fundamental disagreement
There is a certain mentality, it seems to me, that Pujols was obligated to either fulfill our hopes for him, or else be an asshole. I’m not accusing you of this at all, but I’m a little defensive against that mentality right now and I think it was informing the intensity of my position in this conversation.
If the majority of Pujols' WAR comes with St. Louis, he should get in with St. Louis
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
I don't necessarily think that means he's damaged his legacy
Sure he can no longer be a Musial-like figure, but if he’s able to finish the second half of his career strong and lead the Angels to a couple of championships, that’s a whole different type of legacy.
It’s not like he went to the Yankees, playing for the Angels is still a challenge. Now he’s playing tougher teams, and has a chance to prove himself as the best player ever.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
That's what I meant by his potential legacy
Remember, he always hated the nickname “El Hombre” for a reason, I don’t think he ever really wanted that comparison to Stan.
For one thing it's unfair
Not even Stan Musial is really “Stan Musial” because he’s a flawed human being. His peak as a player was 60 years ago. That’s a lot of time for things to become sepia-toned and idealized.
Furthermore, living up to that is one heck of a burden. Maybe deep down he just didn’t want that and knew he wouldn’t be happy trying.
I’m not saying I’m correct about any of this. But no matter what we’re all just speculating right now. So I will continue to speculate the way things look to me.
I think I'm on board with you, bgh
that “Angels are pulling at my heart strings” line is really, really getting to me.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
every time i hear it, i want to punch somebody
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
100% agree with bgh
I wish him well, but he is just another great (at least for the next few years) American League player at this point. He isn’t a Cardinal in my mind anymore. That’s o.k. too.
Joe Dimaggio paid to have roses placed on Marilynn Monroe's
Grave every week for more than 40 years
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
so, in this instance, are we dimaggio?
or are we marilyn?
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
Dimaggio, just like Monroe, APu is with the Angels now
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
you know Dimaggio was a lunatic who also used to be Monroe, right?
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
you mean with?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
beat, not be
sorry. Days when VEB is busy when the page auto refreshes letters get left out when I type.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Ah well that is no doubt true
and considering the era and her background I can almost guraantee that he wasn’t the only one of her men to do so. The point was that even after she left him for someone else, he still carried a torch.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
my point was
he was mentally unstable
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
wow really
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
Disagreed on both counts
I want our team to be credited as the ones with which he had his best years and had the greatest start to a career ever. We drafted him and then extended him.
Also, Pujols was so great that I would be fine with eventually retiring number 5 even though he left. It just feels petty to me to not recognize his on-the-field greatness, which was truly elite.
you could argue it was just as petty of him not to recognize the greatness of the city, the fans, the franchise, etc.
i think i see where bgh is coming from. if we retire his number then its almost like we’re saying its okay what he did. i don’t know if STL wants to do that. i’m on the fence on this one.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
We don't retire numbers just because we love a guy
Willie McGee should not have his number retired, sorry guys and gals. He just wasn’t good enough. How in the world are we gonna retire Sutter and Brock’s numbers and not Pujols? That just seems like irrational to me.
maybe i should just let bgh state his position instead of speaking for him
but pujols will end up playing 1/2 his career for another team.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
Unless Pujols ages ridiculously gracefully
It’ll be basically impossible to say the second half of his career will be better than the first. Everybody who sees whatever records he sets in L.A. will also know that he needed to do what he did in St. Louis in order to ever have a chance of doing that.
Basically I am saying this: I think it’s incredibly irrational to put him in as an Angel unless he has a Barry Bonds aging curve. I don’t think the Hall of Fame would do that barring said Bonds-esque performance. I wouldn’t want that to happen either.
not talking about the HOF, talking about the retired number
i mean, i mostly agree with you. i’m only playing devil’s advocate
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
I getcha
Forgot about the retired number part for a minute there.
I just think that what he did here on the field was so great that it’s crazy to me to not recognize it in those ways.
i see that point.
but there’s a nice symmetry to not retiring his number. its metaphorical. but he probably doesn’t even give a shit anyway
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
See, again
How the hell do we know if he gives a shit? There’s an awful lot of assumptions going on here and I’m not comfortable doing that.
I assume he cares about such honors,
but he doesn’t care enough about them to live up to his own words from 2009. He chose the $3 or $4 million per year extra to leave. That’s fine. That’s his decision. But that doesn’t mean that we should still treat him the same as Ozzie, Gibby, Brock, and Stan. He doesn’t get a red jacket and he shouldn’t. I am probably sounding way too emotional about this. But Pujols made the conscious decision to not be in the company of those players. I will defer to his decision when considering how and whether to honor him.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 9, 2011 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
exactly. you're starting to convince me.
and i actually appreciate the emotion. some of us get too caught up in the numbers and the money that it would have cost to keep him and what that would have meant for the cardinals in 7 years, etc.
but i will say this: i am much more upset that we did not sign him for 10/250 than i would be if we had.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
by IHeartBoog on Dec 9, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
My sentiments as well.
"Nothing Motte does is quiet. It's mostly screamy and intense." - sheckiezx
"I'm a graduate of the Mike Shannon School of Diction" - Al Hrabosky
by monkeysareblue on Dec 9, 2011 7:27 PM EST up reply actions
That's fair, and I think I understand your point of view better now
I’m not saying I’m “right” and you all are “wrong” either, it’s just a significant difference of opinion.
Furthermore, retiring numbers is clearly a team thing, so I would be more OK with not retiring his number here than I would with the HOF thing. It’s our team and our retired numbers, not all of baseball. The HOF belongs to everybody.
Also, it remains to be seen whether he "recognized" the city of St. Louis and its fans
I could eat these words later, but I am not assuming anything about his motivations at this time.
I just don't see how not re-signing with us constitutes not recognizing the Cardinals and the city
Plenty of people rightfully get recognized after moving on. Nolan Ryan has his number retired by the Angels, Astros, and Rangers.
this is (almost) the complete extent of my disapproval of Pujols here.
i will root for him as a player henceforth, and i hope he enjoys personal success, but i hope that the Angels do not win a championship in the next 10 years, and i would hope that #5 is not retired, no statue, hall of fame as an Angel.
Really?
You wouldn’t like to see him completely bomb? I would… I always root against former Cardinals, except for Scott Rolen.
Sign Roy O
WE STILL LOVE YOU, SCOTTY
Still not a werewolf.
by clank on Dec 9, 2011 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I desperately want him to have a crazy...
late 30s run of 140 OPS+ seasons so he can get into the hall of fame.
Sign Roy O
Yeah, I hope he keeps on being as awesome as possible
I think he (and Edmonds) both already deserve it, but I’m afraid for both of them. I think Scotty might have a better chance at this moment, but I’m not actually sure of that.
I hope he makes HOF
just for the wise-ass acceptance speech he might make.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 9, 2011 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
domestic terrorism is a bit much to wish for.
i think lack of continued baseball success would be as far as i can go.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
Him vs Felix 50 times a year will be p.cool
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
right now the only record I'm really excited to see him break
is the GIDP record
Still not a werewolf.
no, i wouldn't, tbh
i want him to at least displace manny ramirez as the greatest right handed hitter of the steroid+ era first.
this is true
but will you remember his best years or will you remember the records? I’m sure it will be noted that he played for the Cards for the first half of his career – I just think when it comes to enshrining him, it will be with the team he ended his career with and possibly broke records as.
If McGwire were to ever get in the Hall of Fame, would it be as a Cardinal or an A? His best years were in Oakland, but he broke the HR record (albeit tainted) in St. Louis.
As a Cards fan
I’ll remember his best years. I suppose other fans will probably remember the records.
McGwire's best years would be tainted too, for what it's worth
And I would hope he would (hypothetically since it probably won’t happen, sadly) go in as an A. Who knows. That’s merely my opinion.
i can't get over how boring and mundane and annoying all those names look compared to al
aramis ramirez? michael cuddyer? even prince fielder comes out sounding like a fucking hyundai compared to the lamborghini that albert represents. these have been the worst two days baseball wise in a long time. first i tell myself that’s business, it’s the way it goes, move on. then i’m like all pissed off at the cards for letting a once-in-a-generation player move on without putting up much of a fight. who’s gonna step into al’s place? fucking holliday?
sorry, i just can’t help being pissed off at this. thinking about watching this team next year without the big guy coming to the plate
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
we really need a new shiney toy to distract us from our sorrows....
Piss off Tony, get shipped to Canada.
by beer me on Dec 9, 2011 10:26 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
are we still telling holliday to go count his money?
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 10:21 AM EST reply actions
No.
We’re telling Holliday to step the heck up, carry this team offensively, and not drop any game-changing cans of corn in the meantime. And stay healthy while doing, for crying out loud. He can’t be content to be Robin anymore… or like last year, Alfred.
Definitely.
Was gonna say earplugs, but seems he already has a problem hearing other fielders…or calling them off.
his tremendous skull is sometimes so focused on the baseball
(and maybe his avocados too)
he can’t quite communicate
or maybe it’s the sunflower seeds.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
maybe Freese
keep Holliday on cleanup? no, wait. yeah, bat Matt 3rd, that’s my thought.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Just say no to Freese in 3 hole
Holliday 3, Berkman 4, Freese 5. . . when Craig returns put him 5th and bump Freese to 6th
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I would think left/right
switches with Berkman… depending on performance and opposing pitcher… but I am used to TLR managing so who knows?
this
Do we still have someone who “has pop/can do damage” in the two-spot, or just someone who gets on base all the time?
I hope so
Like I said earlier, Berkman fits better at 4 since he gets on base so well. That means if the first 3 don’t get on, then you have a high likelihood of starting the 2nd inning with a baserunner
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
i think Holliday has stepped up his entire time with the Cardinals.
I would also prefer that he play more than 124 games this year.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Yeah all he's done with the Cards is be a top-10 hitter when he's not hurt.
Pffff who needs that. Step it up, fella.
(Obviously I hope he stays healthy too, but that’s not really on him)
You're right.
What I really want is the offense to be just as productive this season, as it was last year, in order to produce a relatively dominant baseball team, as opposed to one that barely slipped into the postseason (and for which I will always rejoice and be glad). This seems doable, if the team receives higher output from Holliday and others, which is partially a given so long as he and they can stay healthy, as you pointed out.
I didn’t mean to in any way denigrate Holliday… well, except for the comments about his fielding which I know is not nearly so bad as it has looked on a few isolated spectacularly awful moments.
Yeah I mean, that would be great.
If Holliday would like to have an 8 WAR season, that would be terrific. However, he’s never really been that guy, we’re not really paying him to be that guy, and he’s 32 in January. So I’m not setting myself up to be disappointed in him when “all” he does is put up 5-6 WAR.
Barring some surprises (e.g. healthy Freese who is also September/October Freese, Berkman repeating last year) the offense will be worse, but the pitching will be better, and the Cards will project to win 87-90, which may well take the NL Central.
he had a 8.8 WAR/162 pace going this year
following an Apendectomy I wouldn’t be surprised if he has a 7.5+ year or two left in him
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I think I may have miscalulated
when I recalculated I had him at 6.53/162 still considering that he did that injured I still believe he has a 7-7.5 war season or two left in him
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Sure, I have no trouble believing that.
But it’ll be more of a happy surprise kind of thing for me, if he actually does it.
Nice to meet you MattBug!
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Future Mrs. David Freese ♥
St. Louis Cardinals 2011 World Series Champions
by ClemsonGirl on Dec 9, 2011 10:25 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
it's a meme if you want it to be.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
The "IF" Question...
I’ve tried to decide how I’d feel if we went to 10yr/254. I think I’d be relieved he was going to retire a cardinal, legacy intact, let my son grow up watching him/enjoying with me, etc. BUT, i would be complaining vehemently year 6+ about the inability to compete, I suppose.
On the other hand, I feel disappointed as hell, but know that in 5 years I’d be relieved.
So it’s basically, pissed now, happy later OR, pissed later, but ecstatic now.
I think I’d like to have signed him. My cardinal fandom, however will remain intact.
Also, MO earned a few points with me; Albert lost a few.
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
so you're saying... drink?
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
i would say 90% of comments on VEB
I simply read as “blah blah blah…drink!”
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
right now i'm just hugely disappointed
i try to tell myself it’s all for the better. but right now i just can’t really convince myself of that. i miss al already
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
Lord but it feels weird thinking about this team now.
No TLR, no Pujols… I think things like “culture” and “team personality” tend to get overstated — the wonderfully adolescent 2011 Milwaukee Brewers notwithstanding — but I still find myself wondering about those things re: the 2012 Cards. That’s two massive, defining pieces of the personality/culture puzzle missing.
I think it might be a lot of fun.
Also, really looking forward to seeing Mozeliak operate without TLR’s institutional power being a factor. The outcome of the Pujols talks, sad though it is, is encouraging.
i, on the other hand, just want to drink heavily and weep
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
This is definitely Mo's team now.
I think Goold tweeted something to the effect of: Mo picked the mgr, the franchise player (LF), the (now replacement) 1B – who’s the face of the franchise now?
as it should be
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
And so far, so good on those calls.
Holliday is far more likely than Pujols to earn the rest of his contract, Berkman just makes me happy, and I’m agnostic on managers anyway. If he conjures up a MIF fix, I’m going to start looking at rings.
are you proposing to Mo?
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
i don't think pegasus has pizza yet.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
you need to court him with pizza
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
If Matheny shows minimal
inclination to play players out of position, that alone will make me a fan.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 9, 2011 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
i think it's really that we've been conditioned to look at the same faces every day.
every other team in the major leagues does… not. maybe the yankees? that’s all i can think of, off the top of my head.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
There's little doubt that Pujols will be the best Angel of all time, right?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Carew's was surprisingly low, all his good years were with Minny.
Ryan’s the one to beat, he’s over 40. Doubt Pujols gets there.
wrong. Tony Danza.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
It'll be close
If Vegas was taking bets on the subject, 40 would seem like a good place to put the over/under
Well... he might.
Isn’t that just about his median projection? I mean, he could put up 20 in the next three years. I’m skeptical too, but it IS Albert Pujols.
yes. yes he will.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
Rays get it done
RT @andrewdmoses: Damn, 5-years and 14M for Matt Moore. The #Rays are so good at their game.
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
Holy shit. Fuck the Rays.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Well I guess all it does is buy him out until FA
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
He was a rookie last year
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
from MLBTR
The Rays have club options covering Moore’s third arbitration year and first two free agent years. If those are exercised, the deal could be worth $37.5MM over eight years, and it could exceed $40MM with escalators.
Crazy good deal.
The Cardinals can afford to wait...
and pay more after having more certainty that the player is going to work out. The Rays have to move early and take a greater risk.
Sign Roy O
Wow compare this to what Lincecum makes over his first 7-8 years
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
that's less than he'd get in those arb years, though
not a massive coup like the longoria one (though what are the options like?) but still nice.
Well, yeah
But looking at what Lincecum has gotten in arbitration, this has the potential to save them a shitload of money in the next 5 years if Moore even approaches his projected level of production.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
agreed.
how the fuck do they get players to do this?
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
i think they also like mitigating risk.
matt moore is now set for life if he makes the correct decisions with his money.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
It's because the franchises are enslaving them or something from Joe Sheehan.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
Well, sure. It be kind of fun if the best player in a particular sport refused to sign anything but one year deals
and bounced around the country year after year to the highest bidder.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
I still believe this is what LeBron should have done
guy had the unique opportunity to be a championship mercenary. at least for 3 consecutive years. and he likely could have still signed a max deal at the end of those 3 years even if he had some injuries. More total $ and the ultimate bad guy persona.
Ooh, what would his heel name be?
I nominate Lazer Lebron, in honor of Scott Hall (cf. above subthread) but I doubt that would win in a vote.
i vote for LeBronSTAR.
Sets the stage for Space Jam 2…Monstars Strike Back

by all4tookie on Dec 9, 2011 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I really wish more (or any) athletes were willing to embrace Villain personas.
Just imagine what Tiger Woods could have done. Let some floozy caddy for you, wear a fur coat to pressers, switch over all your endorsements to vice products and erectile-dysfunction pills, and just fucking OWN IT.
If I were Pujols,
I’d have signed the extension on stage after the World Series parade. (This is the opposite of what you’re proposing.)
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Moreno would be the sleazy manager, like Jimmy Hart, and would walk up to the stage with a megaphone to stand by Albert and say stupid stuff into the mic.
This would be so fun
Hey, we all know Lozano is the proverbial mouth of the south.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
by Alxfritz on Dec 9, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Except in baseball. . .
they can’t do this until they have six years of service time, which, for most players is the best part of their career.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 9, 2011 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
That podcast with Jazeryeli is unlistenable...
i need an app that just condenses all Jaz’s comments.
Sign Roy O
When I was 22 I am not sure I thought like that.
But I’m sure than if a sensible agent or parent had grabbed me by the shoulders, yeah, it would have made sense to me.
(turns out 28 is a looong way from 22)
and not waiting 5 years to become one
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Fuck the rays
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Wow if I am the owner of the Rays I offer Friedman 10+ Million a year
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Can you imagine how afraid you would be as that owner
going in to that negotiation? reading the papers a week later saying " really? he has a right to buy 5% of the team every year for the next 20 years at 1/2 Market rate?"
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
look guys
Pujols was an asshole St. Louisans . He was an asshole to his team mates.
Look here @ about 38 seconds, what he does to a native St. Louisan and team mate David Freese.
Grit != flat out sucking.
Oh, I can't watch that. It hurts.
ONLY PRINCEY CAN FILL THIS PUJOL IN MY HEART.
ALBERT PUJOLS RESIGNED.
SIGN PRINCE FIELDER
Perhaps I shoulda just gone with "jol in my heart." oh well.
ALBERT PUJOLS RESIGNED.
SIGN PRINCE FIELDER
is that some new hybrid crop that I haven't heard about?
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 9, 2011 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
That's one variety
It’s wheart! It’s wheat, it’s weird, it’s wheart!
Try our new gluten-free version!
he blatantly rips off freese's jersey
what a dickwad! it’s not even albert’s jersey. it’s freese’s jersey so why does al think he has a right to just rip it to shreds? asshole…
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
I bet he KNEW he was going to sign a big deal with Angels...
and just assumed he would have the funds to pay Freese back!
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
yes. a thousand times, yes
fuckin’ pujols. more like assjols. am i right?
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
After thinking long and hard
Albert Pujols, you son of a bitch
may your balls develop a 10 year itch
may your pecker be twisted in such a manner
that your asshole whistles the Star Spangled Banner.
by Iowa on Dec 9, 2011 11:18 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
More on Cespides
While I love his position at contact, he gets there all wrong. His sequence is screwed up; he’s very top-down (ala Greg Luzinski). His shoulders lead his hips when it should be the other way around. That means he’s leaving power on the table, but it also means he needs a major overhaul. Major overhauls are risky.
Let me try to put a quick post together.
Boog would have made that play.
I will say that I friggin LOVE the guy's upper body
And that is really the hard part, so he might be worth a shot.
Boog would have made that play.
Nay
We’re not the Rays, and with Pujols’ $22-$25M per year available, we can afford to take a wait and see approach and then sign him to a contract in 2015 with similar terms to what Jamie Garcia is getting.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
yeah, i suppose that's probably more intelligent, BUT
someone w/ Shelby’s upside is likely to be valued more highly than either Wainwright or Garcia at the point they signed their contracts, no?
Yeah,
But Moore’s contract is essentially Wainwright’s contract after 2 months of Matt Moore. We had 2 years of Adam Wainwright before doing that deal. Remember, those option years push the value of the deal near $40M.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Sure
But Miller isn’t likely to get any more than that for a guaranteed deal 2 years from now either. At this point he’s all upside, which makes his price higher. In two or three years we’ll have a lot better feel for where he is and can value him accordingly.
When you’re the Rays, you have to take this risk. The Cardinals don’t, and shouldn’t.
How would you feel about offering that contract to Colby Rasmus two years ago right now? How about Brett Wallace?
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
I am reminded of a Dwight Schrute quote
Would I ever leave this company? Look, I’m all about loyalty. In fact, I feel like part of what I’m being paid for here is my loyalty. But if there were somewhere else that valued loyalty more highly, I’m going wherever they value loyalty the most.
You see, you spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball, and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time. ~Jim Bouton
by redbirds34 on Dec 9, 2011 11:27 AM EST reply actions 9 recs
Ding, ding, ding
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Guys...I knwo this is OT but I had to share.
I’m like done with the last of my real classes. Next semester I basically teach and then next year I’ll be somewhere in the St. Louis area teaching for real (Please God, let me have a job). No idea how to deal with this situation.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Future Mrs. David Freese ♥
St. Louis Cardinals 2011 World Series Champions
welcome to the real world
it’s scary as fuck and doesn’t feel right at any point- i wish you best of luck in the job search and brief/zero unemployment.
(FWIW i graduated from a top 20 liberal arts school with a double major in two quantitative/scientific fields, a good GPA, and several competitive internships and have been unemployed since September, probably because i spent too much time on VEB)
I have a different major/career path I assume.
But getting a teaching job today is hard.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Future Mrs. David Freese ♥
St. Louis Cardinals 2011 World Series Champions
oh, of course- very different
i am currently substitute teaching, so i suppose that’s only a good sign!
also, i believe (as far as i can think right now)
all of my friends who desired being teachers have at least a teaching assistant job at this point.
I may have to sub.
If I sub in a good district that’s a really good way to get a job there next year.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Future Mrs. David Freese ♥
St. Louis Cardinals 2011 World Series Champions
really?!
i know virtually nothing about that field, and it surprises me that getting a teaching job is difficult.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
Schools aren't hiring because of the economy.
Teachers are staying longer because of the economy.
It is supposed ot be on the upswing within the next couple of years though.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Future Mrs. David Freese ♥
St. Louis Cardinals 2011 World Series Champions
Charter Schools are still hiring
at least here they are
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I'll take almost anything now.
Although I think I need to be kind of careful as a first year teacher because I want to be supported as best as I can. Like working in the city schools would probably not be a great idea because I don’t think I would get the support I needed to become a great teacher and those kids need great teachers.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Future Mrs. David Freese ♥
St. Louis Cardinals 2011 World Series Champions
I think he's referring to the "they need great teachers" part
They need teachers that care about their welfare, first and foremost. If the teacher does that, then chances are that they’re going to be a great teacher soon.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
But they also need teachers who can teach under the pressure they are under in those schools.
Which means teaching should be second nature to those teachers so they can focus on their welfare and care about them like they need. They do need great teachers and saying that that is uninformed is just wrong.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Future Mrs. David Freese ♥
St. Louis Cardinals 2011 World Series Champions
No it's not.
I cannot expect to give those kids what they need as a first year teacher. I know that. The schools won’t be able to support my growth as a teacher because they have so much other stuff to worry about like budget cuts, test scores, etc. I would not be opposed to eventually teaching in a St. Louis City school eventually. But right now it would not be wise for me or the children. I would rather be able to have all of the acts of teaching a class second nature so I can focus on giving them the emotional support and love they need.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Future Mrs. David Freese ♥
St. Louis Cardinals 2011 World Series Champions
Also to clarify I don't mean ALL urban schools.
I mean specifically St. Louis City schools. Chicago city schools are very good and I would work there if I lived in Chicago without a second thought.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Future Mrs. David Freese ♥
St. Louis Cardinals 2011 World Series Champions
AND I said ME as a first year teacher.
Not every first year teacher will have the same feelings. You don’t me or my limitations. I do. I know I would care entirely about every child in my class and their welfare but I also know I won’t be able to give them everything they need as a first year teacher because of my personality. I think eventually I could be a very good teacher in a St. Louis City school but not yet. And I don’t want to fail any of my students.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Future Mrs. David Freese ♥
St. Louis Cardinals 2011 World Series Champions
fair enough.
actually, i wonder what the best major to come out of college with is right now in terms of finding a job. my guess would be nursing.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
i dunno
took some folks i know with nursing degrees a long time to find a job. granted- they got great jobs once they did. i would imagine it would be something as specialized as possible- physical therapy, perhaps.
undergrad though.
my cousin graduated in 2009 with a simple nursing undergrad and had hospitals in STL basically begging for her.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
fair enough
it’s probably different in different geographical regions. and i guess physical therapy technically isn’t undergrad, you’re right.
PT's are very in demand though, you're right.
i think that’s a 2-3 year program though.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
i have two friends in PT school, who basically did just 6 straight years of school- it was a 6 year program
but they did technically receive a BS after 4.
it's an exercise science BS at truman.
“pre-PT” path. it’s a very popular major.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
hey, I'm a PT
I could walk out of here right now and have five jobs lined up by days end. In a town of less than 20,000 people.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Oh, I know a few
but they are absolute idiots.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I should add
I COULD walk out of here today and get a higher paying job in a more desireable location. BUT, I choose not to because I am loyal to my employer, don’t want to drag my family out of our home, and money isn’t the driving force in my life.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Dec 9, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
HE'S THE OPPOSITE OF ALBERT PUJOLS
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
you're SWMO, right?
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
i thought you were close to SBU
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
no, I went to PT school at SBU
and moved back over here after to be closer to family.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
fair enough.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
Really?!
How did I not know this? I drove down to SEMO every weekend last year to visit my (now) ex.
2012 MLB All Star Game FanFest: July 6-10 at the Kansas City Convention Center! Ask me for more info!
I am in no way affiliated with Southeast Missouri State University
which also uses the moniker “SEMO”. We were only using that to define the area of the state where we live. However, I do live 30 minutes from Cape.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
see also: bumfuck nowhere
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
...Kirksville?
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
by TBender on Dec 9, 2011 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
guarantee wherever scoot lives is more bumfuck nowhere.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
and I wouldn't have it any other way
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Also, the Bootheel
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
My wife found a job very quickly
One data point, but hey
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I assumed yours was a teacher
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
oh you are correct
I thought you were replying to ClemsonGirl. Up button is my friend.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I work at a hospital
and the RN jobs are more difficult to come by now than they were 3 years ago. nursing schools ramped up the sizes of the classes (if not the # of faculty) and there are a LOT of young nurses in the workforce now.
if you want a healthcare job that is completely starved for people/talent….get trained to be a coder.
This
But you need to graduate from a school with AHIMA certification, otherwise you will be stuck in a doctors office making $12/hour
If I were an undergrad and so inclined
I’d do some kind of applied hard science, like engineering.
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
I am Assistant Director of Career Services at a State School
Top Five Degrees for Employment lined up prior to graduation:
1. Computer Science
2. Accounting
3. Electrical Engineering
4. Nursing
5. Statistics
Closely behind are Business Administration (any incarnation—Finance, Management, Marketing, etc.), any other Engineering discipline (Petroleum, Civil, Industrial, Mechanical), anything to do with Operations Management (logistics, supply chain, etc.), Agricultural Sciences.
Top industry growth for next five years:
Healthcare
Retail
Infrastructure
Biotech
Energy
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Dec 9, 2011 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
suck on it, haters.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
My field is number one!
Though I don’t have a degree in it or even majored in it…
"He probably misses his old glasses."
by Alxfritz on Dec 9, 2011 12:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Than how do you get into IT?
I was looking at taking some Cisco cert classes. My current job is not paying off.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 9, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
I joined the Marines when I was 18 and they paid me to learn networking.
But I’d encourage others to take some cisco cert classes, yes.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
Cisco
I’m studying for my Cisco certs right now. Very interesting stuff.
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
Well, what you're going to be doing is down the hall and has worse hours and pay.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
i'm not trying to insult you, i'm just pointing out a misconception
i’m sure what you do is hard an requires talent
but one of my biggest pet peeves is people thinking that computer science is learning about general purpose PCs and how to use them. though, i guess it’s not their fault when you pick a name like “computer science,” which is about as appropriate as calling astronomy “telescope science”
I know, was just playing.
I don’t really like network engineers being lumped in with guy who replaces the toner in the printer (NOT THAT THERE’S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT!), but it is what it is.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
But I do get to put Engineer in my title, which pisses AZ off tremendously.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
I'm a Sports Performance Engineer
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
i engineer rage in robots.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
by il rosso on Dec 9, 2011 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Can you rebuild him?
Do you have the technology?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
you realize that's an insult, right?
I think you do
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
no. unintentional, good scoot.
I meant that you don’t design or construct a human body, which are the two general definitions of an engineer.
Still not a werewolf.
Actually, yes, we do
but it’s only available to the DOD right now. Screw everyone else
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
i'm still undecided on calling myself an engineer
deep down, CS really is some sort of bastardization of applied math and engineering. and what i do is designing and building systems, which is well, engineering
i’m also ABET certified, so i have az’s approval anyway, suck it all y’all
I am fine with anyone calling themselves an Engineer
if they can tell me what this means
.
.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
That's the formula for the Peyton Manning.
It’s how he gets his throws to flow, as if through an open channel.
ALBERT PUJOLS RESIGNED.
SIGN PRINCE FIELDER
He and Roebuck, Montgomery
are all up there bitching about it somewhere
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
This means
I chose the right major in college.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
See all of these answers are their own kind of correct
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
i would assume (CG, correct me if i'm wrong here, please)
that getting “a teaching job” is not too difficult, but getting a teaching job you actually WANT is quite difficult.
No in general getting a teaching job is pretty difficult.
I mean I could probably get a job at like a preschool but those don’t even pay as well as like long-term subbing so…
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Future Mrs. David Freese ♥
St. Louis Cardinals 2011 World Series Champions
What about getting a job at a low-income urban school?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
See above.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Future Mrs. David Freese ♥
St. Louis Cardinals 2011 World Series Champions
If you are looking to get creative:
Teach for America
Americorps
Peacecorps
These groups all are designed for 22-25 year olds, help line up incidental needs Housing, etc. and look great on career paths. trajectory for careers outside of them are geared towards careers in service (education, non-profit, sustainability, etc., however, MANY F500 organizations HIGHLY value the skills/exposure one is given. no true pre-reqs (certain degrees, etc.), except that you have to hold a degree and have references to recommend you.
Last but not least—HUGE benefit—they are paid positions, on renewable contracts (1-3 years in length) and all offer LOAN FORGIVENESS benefits.
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Dec 9, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
The only one of those I've considered is Teach for America but I want to move back home and you don't really get a say in where you go.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Future Mrs. David Freese ♥
St. Louis Cardinals 2011 World Series Champions
Getting a full-time teaching job is really tough everywhere in the US.
I can’t find one at all.
by mattisnotfrench on Dec 9, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
tell me about it
my wife has a masters in education and will soon have a masters in ESL. she’s managed to stay employed but she’s at her third job in as many years after spending five at one school. budget cuts are happening all over the st louis area.
ESL should help.
A lot.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Future Mrs. David Freese ♥
St. Louis Cardinals 2011 World Series Champions
thats the plan
but we may be moving out of the stl area at some point to a market that values it more. we’ve actually discussed southern california. so before long i guess i can still go see pujols play and go to the occasional rams game.
Getting a masters in East Saint Louis sounds like a very Saint Louis-centric program.
Probably should stay put.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
Teaching jobs really don't care when you have such specialized high need degrees.
Anywhere in the south would be good for that, adiueordie. In South Carolina there’s a HUGE need for that but we also have the 48th ranked schools in the country so that’s something to consider too.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Future Mrs. David Freese ♥
St. Louis Cardinals 2011 World Series Champions
You won't find better in SoCal.
Or anywhere on the West Coast. All three states have huge budget holes.
by mattisnotfrench on Dec 9, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
Colorado has a state constitutionally mandated year increase in K-12
spending, and a massive immigrant population…just saying.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
This is true.
You might have better luck then. I teach French at the college level – I have a decent job but I have no hope of finding a full-time job.
by mattisnotfrench on Dec 9, 2011 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
Le singe est sur la branche..did I do it right?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
by the way,
LOVE the avatar. I’m currently in the market for one.
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Dec 9, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah the teaching market is brutal
My wife had trouble finding a new job after getting screwed over by the KCK. Thank goodness Leavenworth hired her a month before school this year
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
Welcome to Adulthood!
Now you get to look forward to all those things that have been put off by school. Such as: repaying school loans, gazing wistfully at your bank account on payday, and then giving the bulk of it away to bills/mortgages/credit cards, getting up at 5 or 6 am everyday, not being able to sleep past 7am on the weekends because you’re so used to getting up at 5 or 6 am during the week, going to bed at a decent hour, mowing your lawn, giving more money away to fix things that are broken, like a car or a house, and last but not least, telling those blasted kids to get the heck off your lawn. And to turn down their music. And to pull up their pants. Because back in your day, music was good and people wore pants at the waist. With belts and/or suspenders. And we liked it! Because it looked snappy!
Seriously though, congrats!
FUCK
love you, grad school.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
i get a bonus year next year.
but after that i’m all done.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
Meh. I like the real world
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
says the married dude who works for a soccer team.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
...yes. Those are things that contributing to me liking the real world
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
y helo thar grammar
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
just saying there aren't a lot of 22 (23 now?) year olds with your type of situation.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
Actually, I do, too
I was just being (trying to be) funny.
It’s really not all that bad. I do gaze wistfully at my bank account on payday though, before clicking “Send Payments.”
Yeah I'm not listening to you.
Although I think I’ll like it fine.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Future Mrs. David Freese ♥
St. Louis Cardinals 2011 World Series Champions
Why are you not listening to me
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
See, fang's reply.
And the fact that you just show up sometime in the afternoon (I think you said that once) and get to watch soccer all the time.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Future Mrs. David Freese ♥
St. Louis Cardinals 2011 World Series Champions
echoing tehzachatak a bit, here is my Standard Advice To New Adults:
It never quite feels real, and you’ll always feel like some kind of a fraud impersonating a grown-up. That feeling never goes away.
The trick is to remember that the rest of us feel that way, too. But you never really think of other people that way — you perceive them as the polished adults you’re impersonating. Turns out being an adult/professional/whatever is about how people perceive you. So just pretend you definitely know what you’re doing until unconscious competence kicks in. Then enjoy the rest.
someone with a wife and kids tell me if this is still true for them
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, it is extremely true.
I keep waiting for someone to come out from behind a hidden wall and tell me it’s all just an elaborate hoax.
Makin' toast!
DING
Butterin' toast!
With kids,
It’s more true. Parenting is completely an on-the-fly situation that others seem to do better than you.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
Have you ever talked to your parents about it?
Mine pretty much felt the same way. Grandparents did, too.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
Yep.
“Ok, now what?” was their exact words (they’ve told me) when they brought me home from the hospital.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
I don't have kids yet, but my brother has told me
that they’re too busy keeping them alive to think about it, but when they do think about it it’s totally bizarre.
so you're telling me my whole life is a fake?!
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
Not, it's just not as grounded in solid theory as you would think.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
Call everyone you know...
and everyone you know, who knows someone, who knows someone else… that knows of a job opening… that’s the way to do it!
"I don't know, but it works. Doin it for Torty works... He brings us luck and we're gonna roll with it." Allen Craig
My wife found a handful of jobs through the MO teachers association site
or somewhere like that. If you need details, I can get them. She got the second job she interviewed for.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
backstabber
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Dec 9, 2011 11:30 AM EST reply actions
Some thoughts on various topics.....
1. From what I read, Albert received the Angels’ offer, and accepted it in about 12-15 hours. Hardly seems like it was some excruciating decision that he mulled over. We probably won’t ever know, but the rumors of AP being upset at STL management seem probable to me at this point. Also wonder how much TLR leaving influenced his decision?
2. I’ve read a few times that most on this board don’t want to make a trade, b/c they don’t want to deplete our system. A couple of thoughts…..without Albert, we don’t have to be quite as reliant on our system as we originally thought we might have to be. I agree that having a good system will make the team better, and I’m certainly not suggesting gutting said system, but the opinion that we cannot afford to trade away some of our prospects, I don’t get. There probably aren’t but about 5 guys I wouldn’t trade right now. Shelby. Possibly Martinez, but in the right trade I’d move him. Wong. One of Carpenter/Cox. I’m really not sure there is anybody else I wouldn’t move. Again, I’m not advocating a trade right now, I’m just suggesting that we have enough tier 2 talent (Cox, Jenkins, Adams, Tavarez (he might be another that I’d only trade in the perfect deal), that I think we could afford to swing a deal, and not kill the system. Aren’t we also going to have 3-4 of the top 45 picks or so in the next draft?
3. I hope management doesn’t just sit pat, and sit on all of AP’s money. I’m not saying we have to spend it all, we shouldn’t, but this team is still a WS-caliber team, with a couple of additional pieces. Go find those pieces, and lets not waste our last year with Berk, last two with Carp, last few with Holliday, etc. Would have liked us to have gone after Kelly Johnson and Furcal/Rollins now that we don’t have AP. Upgrade those spots. Or even CF (probably more difficult).
just a few things
1.) Seems the Cardinals were pushing to have the issue resolved on Thursday. Him accepting quickly is an advantage to the cardinals who now know where they stand for the rest of the off season.
2.) You point is true. Over the last few years there has been a movement to supply good cheap players to surround Albert with since you are going to be paying him. Now we don’t have to pay him, we can bring in other big free agents and maybe trade some of those eggs in the farm system. Though, I’m willing to trade anyway for the right deal. I trust the system that Luhnow has installed, and hopefully it works without him, to restock on talent.
3.) I hope so too. History tells us DeWitt is completely okay with opening DeWallet. I don’t want to spend stupidly, but spend for upgrades. With WW coming back, i think we have a shot this year at winning the division with the current roster. But lets try to fill it. (didn’t Kelly Johnson already sign?)
Grit != flat out sucking.
DeWitt is very smart.
These are the players he has been willing to open DeWallet for during his tenure: McGwire, Edmonds, Rolen, Carpenter, Pujols, Holliday, and Pujols again. With the notable exceptions of Tino Martinez, he has not overpaid for aging and declining talent. I don’t expect us to start doing this now, especially with Mozeliak calling the shots. I doubt we’ll make a trade this winter. The Cardinals, as currently constructed, are the NL Central favorites and perhaps the NL favorites. I’ve said above that I’d be in on Furcal and Beltran but would be willing to walk away if they get too many years. I stand by that. I hope they don’t make an awful signing like Rollins or Cuddyer and instead keep the powder dry for the 2012 trade deadline.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
all of this
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 9, 2011 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
On point #2
Let’s just make sure that if we’re trading that we’re not trading stupidly.
Regardless of whether we signed Pujols or not, the draft and develop strategy is still an awesome way to build an organization, because it allows you to take a lot of risks with free agents in short, high AAV contracts due to the fact that the farm is constantly supplying a stream of good talent to the major league club and filling gaps.
I hope the days of offering #3, #4, and #5 starters $8M per season to pitch here are over. I hope the days of signing 30 and 34 year old stopgaps in the middle infield are over too.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Also
With the new rules, it’s going to be very, very difficult to turn around a farm system in the manner that Luhnow has done it, because we can’t spend large sums of money on supplemental picks without losing future draft choices in the process. So we won’t get the Shelby Miller, Zach Cox, or Kolten Wong type picks and then also be able to draft guys like Lance Lynn and Tyrell Jenkins if we do.
That’s the shitty part about having all these draft picks this year — we likely won’t be able to sign them all without incurring some type of penalty.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
let's just hope they pick well then.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 9, 2011 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, it sucks that we don't have tons of draft picks in a year where the rules didn't just change
However, at least we have quantity. Having quantity is better than not having it, all other things equal.
Optimism, people!
Might I add another name to the mix:
Paul Goldschmidt. I know I have conflicting interests as I’ve adopted the local team (the D-Backs) as well as my childhood team (grew up in St. Louis) but I think a deal for Goldschmidt could benefit both sides. Goldschmidt is probably going to be a Super-2, his risk is a little high for a low payroll team based on how he hits but he is aggressive has power and is young. For the Cardinals, good power and money to spend on pitching.
"Hey, why don't you people watch the game?"-my mom after viewing a wave going around Chase Field.
by Reynolds rapper on Dec 9, 2011 11:38 AM EST reply actions
I don't think he's a big enough upgrade over Matt Adams to be worth it
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Depends what it'd take to get him.
Probably it’d be too much, but I think he’s significantly better than Adams. Then again I’m not on the Adams bandwagon.
I like Goldy, being a fellow Texas State Alum (I'm assuming he grauduated)
but why would the D-Backs do it? Seems like we’d have to give up a lot
You see, you spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball, and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time. ~Jim Bouton
Super 2
His cost is going to go up after this season.
"Hey, why don't you people watch the game?"-my mom after viewing a wave going around Chase Field.
by Reynolds rapper on Dec 9, 2011 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
really?
I mean he walks way more than adams.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
might i add another observation
how quickly the pujols revisionist thinking has occured here with some VEBers. all of a sudden he’s an ungrateful, selfish, unloyal, egotistical prick just because he accepted an outrageous contract. i really have a problem with this portrayal.
albert has always had a lot of pride, probably stemming from the fact that he was undervalued as a high school player and college player (late round pick, etc.). cards mgmt knew that. they knew he would take a lowball offer personally. that doesn’t make albert all of a sudden a bad guy. he was a great teammate as far as i can tell.
that is all
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
I honestly think it's more...
That a lot of people had bad vibes from him all the time, but nonetheless appreciated his being an amazing player. But if you think about it, you’ve got a guy who may well end up being Top 10 all time on your team… and how many people would say he was their favorite Cardinal? I know too many Cardinals fans to count, and I don’t know any of them who would have ever said he was their favorite Cardinal (Wainwright, Carp, Yadi, Holliday, even Ludwick and Boog pre-trades were the common favorites for people I know). If you have a “once in a generation” type player, but among hardcore fans of his team he’s often not a favorite player, that probably means people had some kind of vibe about him, but happily overlooked it because he was (and is) an incredible ball player.
I’m not saying he’s a terrible person (I truly don’t think he is), but I also don’t think his actions back up, well, anything he’s sad over the last 5-6 years. I don’t usually like people who are overly disingenuous. And his using religion as his reasoning to take the $$ contract really annoys me.
WWCD? CDGAF.
things change though
I’m a completely different person than I was 5-6 years ago. I would have been pissed if he left somewhere for slightly more money. But $40-60 is A LOT of money. And I’m 99% positive Pujols will spend it better than I would.
Grit != flat out sucking.
Yeah, this.
I have a hard time being upset AT either side – Pujols or the Cardinals. Each made the decision that made the most sense for them. I’m just sad that it didn’t work out.
Makin' toast!
DING
Butterin' toast!
Pujols never got a lowball offer from the Cardinals to take personally.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
some people felt he did
burwell for one. it depends on how you look at it i guess
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
I'm not especially concerned about what Burwell thinks about things.
I’d venture that I’m not alone in that matter.
Makin' toast!
DING
Butterin' toast!
The second-largest contract in the history of baseball is not a lowball offer. It isn't even close.
What’s more, as quoted above, Pujols is on the record as saying he wouldn’t leave for an extra $3 or $4 million per season, which is exactly what he did. No matter how one defines the Cardinals’ offer, it is not a lowball offer.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
again, it's all in how you look at it
people with greater knowledge than me have implied that the cards knew someone would out ante them, that they put up a figure that would fall short of the market and chances were good albert would bolt. they did, and he did. i’m not saying i blame them. they have to make a rational business decision. but i don’t see albert as this disingenous guy. maybe he’s too proud by half. i’ll give you that. but he’s not the villain people are trying to paint him as.
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
By all accounts, the Cardinals had the largest offer on the table until the Winter Meetings
and even then it was competitive with the Marlins. Mozeliak did not know how big the Angels’ offer was, but it was made about 12 hours before he accepted it. So, until the last 12 hours of Pujols’s free agency, the Cardinals had the highest offer made (and the second-largest offer to a free agent in MLB history) and then an offer that was reportedly on par with the Marlins’ offer—so on par that Pujols did not accept the Marlins’ offer.
There are also reports of a five-year, $140 million offer in November, which would have been the highest AAV ever given to a MLB player. Again, anything but a low-ball offer. I don’t think he’s a villain but to suggest that he was low-balled by the Cardinals is absurd. I can’t help how he feels, but describing what the Cardinals proposed as disrespectful is absurd. It seems to me that both sides conducted very good negotiations and Pujols’s side got what they wanted: 10 years, $250+ million.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
i didn't mean it that way, as disrespectful
i meant only that they might have known going in that their deal wouldn’t be high enough and that albert would walk. again, i can’t say for certain.
but you make good points and you i can admit that you know a whole lot more about it than i do, so i’ll cede your argument.
i just hate all this albert bashing.
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
The Cardinals did not want to be a stalking horse,
so they wisely didn’t put out an initial offer for Lozano and Pujols to shop around. Instead the Marlins did. It played right into the Cardinals’ hands. They upped their offer and withstood the challenge by Miami. But, after they did that, the Angels came in and blew the Cardinals’ offer out of the water. The Cardinals played their hand well but Lozano got a bit lucky with the Angels coming to the table late and wound up getting his client exactly what he wanted the longest contract ever for a higher AAV than Howard got.
I don’t hate Albert. I don’t want to bash him. I want to make that clear. He had his priorities in free agency and that’s fine. I think the Cardinals negotiated very well and I think Lozano and Pujols did, too.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 9, 2011 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
i know you're not bashing al
you make good points and i can see your side of it. i probably didn’t use the right terminology. i just wish we could have kept albert around. probably not the most logical argument but there it is. which is why i’m not a baseball exec
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
I wish we could have kept Pujols around, too.
I don’t really buy the line in the sand narrative that the media is attempting to construct where it’s either Pujols’s fault or the Cardinals’ fault. It is really the fault of both or neither. I don’t think blame can assigned to one side of this.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 9, 2011 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
no argument here
i don’t think albert is greedy. i do think he lets his pride blind him sometimes. but what the hell, it’s their team and his career, they can and should do what they feel is best.
there are more important things in the world. end of the day, this is all just mindless entertainment.
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
Yes and, let's keep this in perspective:
We’re talking about BASEBALL. Not national security, not health care, not homelessness and poverty. BASEBALL. If the Cards weren’t quite as nice as could be to Albert, or if they had a sneaky negotiating strategy, BFD. They were “mistreating” a guy who also has over $100 million in his pocket.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 9, 2011 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
And if you're looking at it like Bryan Burwell
then you’re probably wrong.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
by fourstick on Dec 9, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
so i should just assume you know more about it than he does
this is your argument?
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
No.
Just that blaming the club for a decision that was not made by the club is fucking stupid. THAT’S my argument.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
i never blamed the clu...oh, never mind
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
This is you blaming the club:
cards mgmt knew that. they knew he would take a lowball offer personally.
So stop already.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
i'll try this one more time
I already told you 3 or 4 times I don’t blame the cardinals. i said they made a lowball offer based on business principles. that is not assigning blame.
for example, i buy things on ebay. i make a lowball bid and hope like hell nobody tops it, knowing full well that somebody probably will because i know my bid is below market value. i don’t “blame” myself for my lowball bid and losing the item. but i do know i made a lowball bid because deep down i was perfectly willing to lose the item.
do this: read bgh’s comments. he is making your argument for you, only he’s better at it than you, he’s more informed, and he doesn’t find it necessary to lob insults.
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
This isn't even an appeal to authority argument
This is an appeal to a guy who has mailed his columns in for years, and is so influential in his market that he can’t even hold a regular radio job, argument.
Frank Cusamano is considered decent radio here, but Burwell is a bridge too far. This is a market where the same old retreads recycle through stations and get regular airtime, and yet Burwell can’t. That should tell you something.
by Merry CRasmus on Dec 9, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
This
If anything is revisionist, it’s calling the second largest contract given to a player (since the same player has the other two) a “lowball” offer. That, in itself, is a giant piece of revisionist history.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
history doesn't matter. the here and now matters
if someone offers me 210,000 to be a school teacher, i can say wow, that’s not a lowball offer. that’s historically high. but if someone else (the angels) offers me 250,000, and someone else offers me 230,000 (marlins), i might think, why are you undervaluing me according to current market rates?
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
So, by this rationale
we should just match any offer? Regardless of how that impacts our organization? And if we don’t, we’re lowballing the person?
This is bullshit. There are more valuable things than money. I think the Cardinals put their best offer out there that they could afford and remain competitive over the life of the contract. The Angels just beat it. That’s fine, but don’t call our offer a lowball offer. That’s a pile of steaming crap.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
not saying that
the cards’ only obligation is to make the offer that makes the most business sense to them. i don’t blame them for that.
but again, there’s a line of thinking that they knew going in they would be outbid and that albert would leave. i have no idea whether that’s true. but that’s what i mean by “lowball.” if you make a good offer knowing that you will lose out to a better offer, that’s what i mean by lowball.
please, i don’t blame the cards. my only point is i don’t blame albert either.
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
So we should just offer a ridiculous amount of money just so that nobody can offer more money?
Seriously, are you in the market for a used, rare collectors car? Because, boy, HAVE I GOT A DEAL FOR YOU!!
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
boy oh boy, you are seriously missing the point
i don’t know if it’s flying over your head or you just aren’t paying attention. either way, let’s just move on shall we?
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
Agreed.
I’m not missing your point — you’re just really bad at making a coherent argument.
if you make a good offer knowing that you will lose out to a better offer, that’s what i mean by lowball.
There’s no possible way to know this. There’s no possible way to know that 12 hours before he made his decision on Thursday morning that some team would come flying in with a $250M offer over 10 years. You’re using hindsight to rip the ballclub for lowballing him, when, in reality, WE HAD THE BEST OFFER ON THE TABLE NOT 12 HOURS BEFORE HE MADE HIS FINAL DECISION. I mean, where do you get off calling that a lowball offer? That’s ridiculous in terms of facts and logic.
Secondly, my comment above is exactly how you would “not lowball” in your terms: A Godfather offer, and “offer he can’t refuse”, an offer so big that nobody could beat or match it. That’s what the Angels did, basically, but the Cardinals could not and should not have done that.
And we should be glad that they didn’t.
I come from the belief that money is not a source of happiness. Money does not “make the world go around” it just smooths out the occasional bumps relating to liquidity problems. There are more important things than money and FAR more important things than “keeping score”. So, yes, I blame someone for taking a stance that they are valued solely by the amount of money that they make or are paid by a particular employer, and that if said employer doesn’t pay them what they think that they are worth then they are getting lowballed. Well, I got news for you: Albert Pujols and A-Rod probably think they’re “worth” a hell of a lot more than they’re getting paid. I’ve never met a single fucking person who is paid “enough”. They always want more. So you can’t just say that we lowballed him due to his self value principle, that’s an excuse to take a never ending cruise down the rabbit hole.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
well, i'm paid enough
in fact i’m overpaid, considering my salary and benefits, and the fact that i’m getting them while sitting here playing this game of mental masturbation on the computer.
so you have now met at least one single person who feels like he is paid “enough.”
see, life is just filled with uplifting surprises, ain’t it?
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
Pujols' Loyalty
An observation/theory of mine is that, to Albert, his definition/application of loyalty was different. I do firmly believe he felt loyalty to the Cardinals Org, the FO, and of course, the fan base/community. I also, firmly believe, that he felt MORE loyalty to his brethren (professional baseball players) and in that ilk, he ended up deciding that accepting his offer to the Angels honored the loyalty to his fraternity of players. A viable counterargument to this is that, even if true, his first loyalty should have been to Yadi, Holliday, etc., (his current teammates), however, after seeing the Cardinals trade Edmonds, Rolen, Polanco, etc., he most likely determined that it doesn’t supersede the loyalty to the union.
No I’m not arguing the trades of those players jilted Pujols.
No I’m not arguing that the Union influenced Albert.
I am arguing, merely from my opinion, that Albert felt compelled to accept the offer from LAA, just as he felt compelled to stay. One Loyalty vs. another. Money vs. Money. the T-Chart just led Albert to feel that LA was best.
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Dec 9, 2011 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
that's an interesting idea, and I'd imagine there could be some truth to it, but the marlins offer was apparently the richest, wasn't it?
If reports are accurate, yes, FLA offered more
but, Albert still needed fit. I’m sure he looked at FLA like a startup company—huge risk, huge reward, where LAA came across as GOOGLE and STL came across at Boeing. Both good companies, but higher wages and surfing versus great apple pie and freezing rain. Plus, salary differences.
In the end, he found the best balance of all the factors, as he considered them.
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Dec 9, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
it has since come out that the marlins offered just over 200 million
says the marlins gm. nightengale is being exposed as a fraud
Guys...
You HAVE to have a gigantic ego to survive in the big leagues, because every few days you’re probably facing one of the best pitchers in the world.
Read the exchange between Beane and Dykstra about Steve Carlton in Moneyball.
When I’m working with guys, and judging how much time to invest in them (and my work with minor leaguers is unpaid because they don’t have any money), one thing I look for is that swagger and that confidence.
I have seen lots of mechanically-gifted guys lack nothing but that swagger, and that’s the difference between failure and success.
Boog would have made that play.
I found this quote interesting.
It’s from the Angels GM Jerry DiPoto:
New Angels GM Jerry DiPoto refused to discuss the terms of the contract. However, asked in general about long-term deals, he said, "In regard to the evolution of a hitter, as hitters begin to age, into their 30s, to whatever point you can project, there’s a certain quality or trait in a hitter, the patience that they exhibit. Albert has had an extraordinary career in regard to maintaining control over the strike zone.
" . . . We’ve had many discussions on how we feel he as a player will continue to evolve. Albert is still as big an impact bat after 11 years as there is in the game."
I think Pujols will be great but, if you use patience as your metric for projecting a player’s production over the next decade, do you just ignore Pujols having a 9.4% walk rate in 2011. It went from 16.4% in 2009 (a career high) to 14.7% in 2010 to 9.4% in 2011. That is not a good trend.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
It's kind of funny...
the same thing happened to Mo Vaughn’s rate before he signed with the Angels… http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=899&position=1B
Sign Roy O
Perhaps the Angels
look specifically for downward-trending plate discipline.
Makin' toast!
DING
Butterin' toast!
I brought that up the other day
when the Angels were rumored to be in on Pujols.
It would really be something if three years from now we have Matt Adams or Allen Craig OPSing .900 at 1B while Pujols is struggling to get on the field and not performing well when he is there.
Right now, we seem cheap. But time is definitely on our side with this one.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
So you're saying
They’ll be calling him Larry DipShito eventually?
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Dec 9, 2011 2:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
That's kinda crazy
Just watching Albert the last couple years, you could tell he wasn’t near as patient as he used to be. Especially last season, he seemed to be pressing.
I have a question. This is directed specifically at the college-aged ones but anybody can answer
I assume some of you have a desire to work for a sports team in some capacity. I know some of you would like to be some sort of GM, right? Why don’t you pursue that?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
speaking as someone who kind of wanted to at 14,
I abandoned it for the same reason I abandoned my desire to play small forward for the boston celtics. (in favor, admittedly, of attempting to write the great american novel.)
In your defense,
at least you can name one guy from Missouri who attempted to write the latter. Not sure you can do that with the former two.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
because, TBH, i don't think i want to do what i need to do to get me there
and because given my political and world views, which don’t need to be discussed, i would find it hard to justify to myself that i am spending my time managing a game. it’s the same reason i have not pursued finance jobs with any sincerity- i would feel, TO MYSELF, like too much of a sellout to be happy. now, if i could get a team to offer me a position doing something that i felt important (coordinating sustainability efforts, something of that ilk), i might take that.
I'm absolutely with you on finance. I have little doubt I'd be good at it, but I'd only be doing it for the money
And I do feel guilty sometimes; I look around at my friends (who are all doctors or engineers) and think that if the world blew up and we had to start a new community, I wouldn’t actually be able to contribute anything to that community
Also, I know that the Mariners do a lot with sustainability around the stadium. Why don’t you pursue a job like that?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
i think, eventually, i will
i need more experience in the field first. right now, i do not have the financial means to accept an unpaid internship, which is what a lot of those positions are (unfortunately, the passion a lot of people have for environmental issues means that they are willing to work for free), meaning i need to be up at the next level- and before i can get there, i need significant work experience. i am also planning on being back in school in no more than 3 years, so there’s that too.
I got my degree in Finance and picked up a minor in math
I loved doing it for about 4 years after college than I burned out so bad. It being money
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 9, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
accepting reality.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
Elaborate
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
expected value, essentially.
being a successful accountant: $50,000 starting (optimistic, but whatever) * 95% = $47,250
making it in your business: 10-20% chance of ever getting to $50,000, 3-5% of making it further = $5-10K
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
What about the utility you derive from working for a sports team?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
hard to measure.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
In a sense.
If you could come out making 50K as an accountant or 40K doing what I do, would you do it?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
with the caveat that i would have opportunities to move up, absolutely.
except not soccer.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
Because I'd never want to be in the position that John Mozeliak was in with Albert Pujols.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
You seem particularly fond of history and all of that, so yeah, I guess it would be a tough job for you
Is that accurate?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I engage in negotiations fairly regularly but the parties are usually at odds with one another.
That is easy to negotiate because I have no emotional stake. And I suppose as a GM I wouldn’t either unless I was the Cardinals GM and even then I’d have to separate that to some degree from the process of contract negotiations. What would be difficult for me is seeing someone like Pujols leave because he cared more about money than Stan Musial, Bob Gibson, Ozzie Smith, St. Louis fans, and The Birds On The Bat. So, yes, the history of it would be difficult because I’m fairly certain that I’d care much more about it than the player or his agent. Now, if I were the GM for the Mariners or something—where there is a tradition of letting their all-time greats leave—I’d probably have a much easier time of it.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
And if you were the GM of the Cubs...
you’d play it like Ric Flair as a heel…
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
"When you're the dominant team in one of the game's biggest markets, Tony,
life is good! The best steaks in the world! The finest suits! The most beautiful women! And the biggest free agent contracts!"
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 9, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I may I just say:
Wooo! Woo! Woo! Woo! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Seriously? I'd eat that up.
Mostly because I feel like that was emotionally driven more than it was financially driven, and those kinds of negotiations are extremely satisfying to me.
Risk aversion.
It’s a door I haven’t closed, by any means. I have a degree that wouldn’t be unhelpful (law) and right now I need to pay for that degree before I do anything else. Basically I picked a path that will allow me to keep the “chase dream job” options open while still paying the bills if I can’t make an opportunity happen.
Interestingly, I wanted to be an umpire before I wanted FO work.
this.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
I feel I can do more to help my favorite teams with a greater voice here on the internet.
Also, I own the Packers.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
You mean your $250 donation?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
do you legit own packers stock?
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
I thought I heard on the radio that the bylaws
Prevent the shareholders from criticizing the team and a bunch of other ridiculous nonsense.
Ooooh, I can be the renegade owner!
Sure, I might offend a few of the bluenoses with my cocky stride and musky odors; oh, I’ll never be the darling of the so-called “City Fathers” who cluck their tongues, stroke their beards, and talk about “What’s to be done with this Alex Fritz?!?”
"He probably misses his old glasses."
oh i know, but it's still cool.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
So, Fritz, as a fellow owner of the Packers, are feeling as proud of our guys as me?
I mean, WE did some good work this year.
BTW, you know what really annoys me? When a fan refers to the Packers as “we.” I’m, like, "you know what dude? You’re not on the team, nor do you own them. Call us “them,” or “the packers” please, but not “we.” “We” is reserved for people who actually are on or own the team, like me."
I’m sure you understand.
ALBERT PUJOLS RESIGNED.
SIGN PRINCE FIELDER
Me too!
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Dec 9, 2011 2:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
mostly opportunity costs and switching costs at this age..
it becomes a different proposition when one has the requisite qualifications to get a well-paying position for a sports organization
I would imagine you already have the qualifications
Friedman grabs almost exclusively finance guys
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
eh, i might have the qualifications to be the assistant to the assistant GM's assistant
but i doubt that that type of position would pay enough to make the switch worthwhile even though i’m sure i’d like the job more.
i'm still actively looking for jobs in professional sports.
the problem is i don’t think my degree is all that relevant (political science) and even if it were, i would be at a loss of where to begin.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
The time component
I wanted a family and knew it would be hard to be a GM an family man at the same time
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 9, 2011 1:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You could be the badass dad that brings your kid to the batting cages and gets hitting lessons from Mark McGwire
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
or i could be the normal dad
who tries to give batting lessons myself, further solidifying bond between father and child
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
And ruining any
chance the little guy might have to be a ML hitter someday! =D
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 9, 2011 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
For most of us, that. . .
was taken care of at the point of conception, or perhaps shortly prior to that.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 9, 2011 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
That's a fine distinction
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
i kind of blew it.
i turned down a journalism scholarship at mizzou for a creative writing scholarship at u of a.
i always had an interest in writing about sports, which is sort of like working for the team. i now have an interest in being a lawyer for a sports team, but i have no idea how one gets involved in that.
thing is, you need to have a plan and stick to it at a young age, like you have. but a lot of people – i would say most people – in their late teens and early 20s are still trying to figure out who they are and what they want. and by the time that’s done, it’s often too late.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
i have to ask
what the hell drove you to arizona?
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
a few things
mostly, it was the desire to live somewhere i had never lived before, knowing that it’s one of the rare times in your life that you can just completely relocate with almost no hassle.
i don’t regret it. but i do wonder what if.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
so... a car?
"He probably misses his old glasses."
by Alxfritz on Dec 9, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i knew one girl from my high school that went to arizona.
and a few others (clemsongirl, for example) that went places that otherwise would have seemed unconventional.
but fair enough. i understand.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
why is arizona unconventional?
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
from saint louis?
it’s just way the far away.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
well i wasn't living in STL at the time
i was living in oregon, where people actually leave after high school.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
by IHeartBoog on Dec 9, 2011 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
then they go back ten years later, complain about the weather,
and act like everywhere else is cooler, leaving those few who stayed wondering why the fuck these people came back in the first place.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
it's not that unconventional, really
every year, a few students from every high school in St. Louis go to ASU. They are known as, “potheads”
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
oh. i'm really stupid.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
Going far away is exactly what I would recommend for college
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
so mizzou still would have been far away for me
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
I was just responding to fang's point
But I don’t think your choice of school is really “blowing it.”
You don’t think you’d have ended up doing the same thing either way?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
who knows
i imagine there are (or were) more career opportunities for those with a journalism degree. i had very few prospects for creative writing which is the only reason i went to law school.
and think of all the cardinals games i would have gotten to see!
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
you blew it, IHB!
jk, you’re probably a great lawyer.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
WELL SOME OF US DIDN'T, OKAY
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
I only went 90 miles
and it’s the best. In-state tuition, going home for excellent food and adoration once a month…
Still not a werewolf.
SOMEONE IS ON MY SIDE
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
his mom wastes all her loving on others.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
who needs in state tuition when you have student loans!
… never mind. fuck me.
Sign Yoennis Céspedes?
Never too late Rany is a dermatologist
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Had no idea you did creative writing
How creative is your writing nowadays? Do you use a lot of metaphors in your legal documents?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
by mysterui on Dec 9, 2011 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
"the severity of the employees violation of his contract with his employer
was worse than the holocaust".
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
by il rosso on Dec 9, 2011 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
we are strongly discouraged from doing that.
i mean, there are some aspects of creative writing, like organization, transitions, sentence structure, word choice etc. that are fundamental to just good writing in general. i also wrote SO MUCH in school that it became natural. and i do think that helped me perform well on law school exams and helps me write motions, memos, whatever. i can churn out a 7-10 page motion to dismiss (well, the first draft anyway) in a 1/2 day.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
in the completely OT world: peachbasketleatherball has completely imploded overnight. what a ridiculous sport.
Because of the CP3 non-trade?
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
yes.
apparently multiple NBA GMs are considering resigning in protest, and the Hornets GM almost did.
Good.
Because that situation reeks and strengthens the conspiracies regarding rigging games and results.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
i have little doubt that he'll figure out a way
but currently, i don’t see how David Stern survives this and manages to retain credibility.
This move essentially dooms the Hornets franchise to getting nothing for Chris Paul.
If you block this deal, then you have to block every other deal to a team in the NBA, specifically contending teams, and those are the only teams interested in Chris Paul.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
david stern sucks.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It's a REALLY good thing for David Stern that this happened on a day that contained a football game
and a day when the greatest baseball player of the last 10 years spurned a storied franchise in favor of more money somewhere else.
This whole situation reeks and it’s a reason why a league should never, EVER, be allowed to own a team at any point. The Lakers are giving up two of the top 25 players in the league (yes, Lamar Odom is a top 25 player in the league right now were he on any other team but the Lakers where he’s the 4th option) to get back one of the top 25 players in the league. Houston gets a lot better because of this deal (and it’s what they’ve been stockpiling pieces for the last three years to do) and the Hornets get 4 good players and two first round draft choices.
That’s far better than what anyone involved in the fucking Miami Heat fiasco of last season got when those three players decided to head there. It’s more than the Celtics gave up to get Kevin Garnett in 2007. So why is THIS the trade that has to be shot down? Just because you CAN do it? The Hornets aren’t getting a better deal than that, so essentially this is about sacrificing the ability of a franchise to improve itself by moving it’s assets just to keep another franchise from improving itself.
FWIW — I smell Mark Cuban’s fingerprints all over this, as he was the one bitching about the Hornets making any moves last year while they were still owned by the league.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
I don't understand the NBA at all...
But did you see Gilbert’s email to Stern? He seemed to make a decent point about all the stupid contract dollars that would benefit the Lakers in this trade. I don’t understand that portion but would be curious for your thoughts on it as an NBA follower.
Just pulled that up...
Wow, get over yourself.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
He certainly is a bit of a media whore
But that was a pretty funny line about 25 teams being named the Washington Generals.
Translated:
I lost my meal ticket last year, so no one else is allowed to do anything
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
What Dan Gilbert forgets is that if he was in the same position with LeBron James
He would have made this deal IN A FUCKING HEARTBEAT. Chris Paul has openly stated he has no intention of signing with the Hornets, therefore the Hornets best option is to trade him for the best possible offer. This particular offer is a very good one for them: They get back four young players that would play for them and two draft choices in the first round with which to rebuild. It puts them WAY under the cap and gives them the ability to pursue some of the current free agents (like Aaron Afflalo or Rodney Stuckey) and also allows them to pursue another team’s salary cap fodder (like the Clippers Chris Kaman or the Piston’s Rip Hamilton) which would give them more cap space next year when there are more free agents. To wit: This is actually a really great deal for all three teams. And, honestly, short of a trade for Dwight Howard and a free agent signing, the Lakers might actually be getting the worst part of the deal in the short term. They would be starting Derrick Caracter or Luke Walton at the PF spot on X-mas day were the roster to stay the same until then.
As far as the lux tax issues: pure fiction. Chris Paul will require a max contract, which will put the Lakers back over the cap. They would also have to pursue a free agent power forward and possibly Dwight Howard, which would put them well above the lux tax threshold and possibly higher than they currently are.
Dan Gilbert needs to stop pretending that he lives in a world where all the franchises are created equal. He doesn’t, and since he voted AGAINST a revenue sharing agreement on par with what the NFL has, he really doesn’t have a leg to stand on.
Also, don’t trust the opinion of a guy who traded for Baron Davis just last year and will now amnesty Baron Davis and pay him to not play in Cleveland next season. So it’s ok for Dan Gilbert to make moves to decrease his salary cap while giving up NOTHING in the process but the Lakers can’t do the same thing while giving up two top 25 players?
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Thanks. I also felt like
Why didn’t they just fix these issues in the collective bargaining agreement?
Here's the problem with the NBA:
It’s the owners, not the players. The owners want a structured salary system and a 50/50 split of BRI to basically protect them from themselves in an NFL sort of way — and if they could get non-guaranteed contracts like the NFL, they’d do that too. Suffice to say, the new contract limits are the next best thing.
But they are NOT willing to agree to an NFL style revenue sharing agreement and a hard cap on spending like the NFL has. The NBA owners, as constituted, do not believe that NFL like parity would be good for their league. I tend to agree with that sentiment, for both logical (NBA dynasties are what has driven this league forever) and selfish (I root for the Lakers) reasons. But you can’t have it both ways, and that’s what Dan Gilbert is attempting to do here.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Further
Would Dan Gilbert be ok with the Lakers acquiring Chris Paul for Derrick Caracter, Luke Walton, and Metta World Peace? In other words, a pure salary dump on the part of the Hornets? Monetarily, it benefits Dan Gilbert, as he will pocket the increased luxury tax dollars, but clearly, that’s an awesome trade from a competitive standpoint for the Lakers, and trust me, they can afford it.
How exactly do the Lakers make this deal without dumping a lot of salary? All the players they have that are worth anything make a ton of money!
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
I really thought the Hornets came out best from the trade.
I thought it was a beneficial trade for all 3 teams.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
agreed
although it was a rather optimistic trade for the Rockets- if the core doesn’t gel, that team is sunk for a while.
I thought the NBA exploded and the union was destroyed by a giant nuclear fallout
When did it come back?
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Dec 9, 2011 2:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don't always relish my role as moderator but I feel like this needs to be said.
Some of the comments around here lately about people’s real names, their school, their age, their pet’s names or whatever are starting to creep me out. This is especially true when discussing people who are not frequently on the site. I have more tolerance for people dropping details about me than say someone who has under 100 comments on the site.
Beyond that, it also seems to encroach a little on the internet’s ability to provide an island of anonymity that some people enjoy. I, for example, am not keen about having my employer’s name blasted across VEB in association with me. Others may not mind; I do.
This isn’t a black and white line and (to preempt) if I wanted to name specific people that are making comments, I would. I’m not though and that’s in part because it is wide spread and in part because I just expect everyone to do a gut check and decide for themselves if this applies to them.
I love the sense of community here. I love that people know who I am and details about my real life. I also want people to feel safe here and not weirded out by comments.
Thanks.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
by azruavatar on Dec 9, 2011 12:00 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
sorry.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Martin Prado
Seems like I a viable trade solution to me. We get a hold over 2B, 3rd/4th OF and we can say bye bye to him when we feel that Kolten Wong is ready.
I don’t know what all it would take to get him, but I can’t imagine it would be that much…Carpenter or Cox could be part of that.
yes, gregg doyel. yes yes yes, gregg doyel.
St. Louis would have loved Pujols the way Chicago loved Ernie Banks, even as he hit .193 at age 40, or the way Baltimore loved Cal Ripken as his batting average was plummeting more than 100 points from age 38 to 40. In the final season of his Hall of Fame career, Ripken hit .239 with 14 home runs in 516 plate appearances. That’s not Cooperstown, that’s a joke — but they weren’t laughing in Baltimore. They weren’t booing, either. Boo Cal Ripken? In Baltimore? He’s an icon in Baltimore.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 12:10 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Doyel gets a lot of criticism
For some reason, I seem to appreciate his style a lot more than most. He can strain to be provocative, but he is also able to admit error or fault when he overreaches.
by Merry CRasmus on Dec 9, 2011 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
i love gregg doyel.
almost everything he writes i completely agree with.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
there are like 800 comments already
did something happen? i’m guessing not.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
nothing in particular
clemsongirl has finished the school-y part of her schooling, and the post-VII final fantasy landscape is being discussed.
so...shift+a then
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
...
RT @Jon_Heyman: Carlos pena in play as possibility for cardinals, who could also look at rollins or beltran. No word yet if they’ll pursue pursue prince
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
Would rather see Puma at First, and an OF
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Dec 9, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
this
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
No to Pena and Rollins.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
What to do after your separation from Albert?
There’s a guy here in Springfield that got so upset he went outside and yelled at the chickens.
TortyCraig
My guess as to the meaning of Yadi's neck tattoos is that they are the symbols from an ancient civilization for "Caught Stealing."
well in the guy's defense
they were being cocks
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Dec 9, 2011 12:19 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
tell your husband to calm down
it’s not the chickens fault
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
yes, you are a former springfield dweller
you know what it’s like around here.
TortyCraig
My guess as to the meaning of Yadi's neck tattoos is that they are the symbols from an ancient civilization for "Caught Stealing."
Don't change, VEB. and let's not stay bitter.
I haven’t really commented on it, but I’m sure the regulars know what my take on the Pujols move is that it’s the second best possible outcome. The sting, for me, was alleviated somewhat in seeing his swansong end in a WS win. No, it isn’t the dream: but that’s reality. In any case, it is far better than overpaying for a lodestone 4 years down the road. And let’s face it, the only team that could take that kind of flyer on Albert would have to be in the AL.
I congratulate Mr. Pujols, for cashing in on his money day. He’s earned that right, even if it hurts some of us, and he certainly doesn’t owe the Cards anything for all he’s given. It would be nice to live in a world were true franchise players (I don’t care about jeter at the moment), fields or stadiums with real, not sponsored names (I wear my “Still Calling It the Jake” t-shirt whenever in ohio), and 4 dollar beers still existed, but that’s not our market or our culture anymore. And, it was such a lovely dream, but, for me, it was a dream I let myself indulge in less and less in these past three years: with every walk off and improbable stolen base, the back of my mind would rumble, “we’re never going to afford this,” so, perhaps, I’ve insulated myself from the shock. In anycase, I wish Pujols well, but not so well that he doesn’t go into the HOF as anything but a Cardinal.
I, very much, congratulate Mo. The organization certainly didn’t owe Albert more than that: they gave him two rings as much as he gave them the same. Not breaking the budget was the right move. It was the right move. I think most of us know that. Let’s find some peace with that, even as it may make some of us feel depressingly adult. Or maybe I’m just speaking for me.
And finally, I congratulate VEB. We still very much have a contender, perhaps even moreso than the Angels. Let’s keep talking about Beltran, SS, the value of a trade, final fantasy, the awfulness that has become Dexter, the uncertainty of teaching positions, and the fantastic spot team payroll is now in and what can be done with it. Let’s keep moving on. Because we will, even if we appreciate the past.
Do it for Torty.
Happy Flight!
by Oedipa Maas on Dec 9, 2011 12:24 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
I fear
this will be the hangover that kills me.
When the Cardinals won the World Series, Ryan Theriot was batting lead-off.
Bilingual Twitter
One of those hangovers where you swear you'll never touch alcohol again?
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
i hate people that say this.
as it is NEVER true.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
in fact, sometimes alcohol is the best CURE for the hangover
how’s THAT for irony!?
/not really irony
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
alcohol is the best cure for a hangover.
in a feeling sort of way. not for your body in the long term.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
Although it would be sweet if I could just buy some Zyrtec one and keep diluting it so I never have to buy any again
I’ll figure it out right after I turn lead into gold and make a fortune.
Well at first I did
You made this last comment right when I was trying to write a comment in such a way that made it apparent I got your joke all along and just hadn’t posted anything about it yet, so thanks for ruining it for me and making me look like a stupid head.
P.S. you can’t come to my birthday party.
Love, Hate,
mattybobo
Well, not exactly.
But hangovers like this one last more than 12 hours and I hate that
When the Cardinals won the World Series, Ryan Theriot was batting lead-off.
Bilingual Twitter
I love reid
but I’m not sure he’s a fit for this team. He was an offensive minded SS…then a D-only SS…I don’t think he’ll ever fulfill his potential, but he’d probably turn into my favorite Card if he came here.
Something clever...
Thoughts. Discuss.
No TLR. No Pujols. Seems like a good year to take a step back and set sights on 2013 and beyond. I’m willing to give them a mulligan in 2012 to do so. Personally, I would prefer they not try to sign older stop-gap players (e.g., Beltran). Would rather they look toward more youthful options…especially w/Matheny in-house. Put the focus on creating a new era of Cardinal baseball.
What does VEB Nation think of pursuing B.J. Upton or Howie Kendrick as FAs? They will be hitting prime years and could be affordable. You probably know the story on each. B.J. is a dynamic player. He’s had his share of miscues, but has shown flashes of greatness. The knocks: Lack of focus, low AVG, fairly high K rate. The pros: Good patience, great speed, and can cover a lot of real estate in the OF. Kendrick has been a little more consistent. He’s a line-drive hacker. The knocks: Hasn’t learned to take a walk, a little injury-prone. The pros: Hits for AVG, has developed into a good RBI hitter, and also has very good D-skills at 2B. I’d even be open to trying him out at SS.
Those are just two players that come to mind. Gordon Beckham also crossed my mind…briefly. He’s still team-controlled, so we would need to trade. And he’s a bigger question mark. Despite much hype, he really hasn’t shown much in the big leagues. So I’m iffy on him.
What does VEB nation think? Any other cost-effective, developing players come to mind? Anyone else on the farm aside from Matt Adams and Shelby that we should be excited about? Would love to hear your thoughts!
No reason to take a step back at all.
Even with Pujols leaving, with Wainwright back the team is just as good as last year.
Yea, I think we need to spend to fill the
Couple holes we have. We still have a really competitive team, and with Lohse and Westy due to come off the books in 2013 (and Shelby likely to be ready to step into the rotation), we should still have plenty of money to spend next year as well if we wanna go after Upton, Kendrick or Ethier.
by mick311 on Dec 9, 2011 12:48 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Right now, it isn't just as good.
Depending on the rest of the postseason moves, it could be.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Can you prove that our team isn't as good as it was a year ago when Waino got injured?
I don’t see that in evidence
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Yeah, the frame of reference is a thing.
I’m talking about “one year ago” as well — not really a fair comp to the September team, though.
plus the addition by subtraction of Franklin, Miller, Tallet, Batista
same frame of reference thing pegasus mentions though
even if berkman declines, assuming a year of a healthy freese might make up for that
it makes me sad that waino wasn’t on the team last year. we probably would have won the division outright. but i guess then no epic carpenter-halladay battle. funny how things work out.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
"assuming a year of a healthy freese."
Hmm, sound like famous last words to me …
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 9, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
we will all die if freese gets injured.
all of us.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
by il rosso on Dec 9, 2011 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
i lol'd
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
Are you a season ticket holder and if so
can I have your tix when you die in May 2012?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 9, 2011 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
Well, it is the last season Before the world
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Dec 9, 2011 2:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Well, it is the last season Before the world ends
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Dec 9, 2011 2:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Don't forget Freese's sky-high BABIP...
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 9, 2011 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
HUSH
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
The team has arranged to have Nelson Cruz in RF for every Freese AB next season.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
I don't think Wainwright will give us the IP total he did in 2009 and 2010
so I think that will reduce his production. Craig being out for April and potentially some of May will also reduce the production of the offense quite a bit. I don’t think we are as good right now as we were in October of 2011. But, we could be with a couple of signings.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 9, 2011 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
I just don't see anything very attractive out there.
Beltran? He won’t play a full season with his bum knees. Rollins’ time has past and he’ll be expensive.
If TLR would still be at the helm, these are exactly the types of players I can see coming into the fold. But with Matheny in charge, I’d be more interested in moving onto building the next era.
And I’m not too concerned with the Brewers or Cubs. The Cubs always lose. The Brewers have some significant talent, but we can still take them any year. Including 2012 and even while re-tooling.
I agree.
I’ve read tweets about teams being concerned about his medicals. Obviously, his health is the question. I don’t know enough about it, but if the medicals are acceptable to the Cardinals, a two-year deal might be nice if he’d sign one. He had a 4.7-WAR 2011.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 9, 2011 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
I think they're more different than that.
Berkman was a guy with some past injuries that had a down year in his mid 30s
Beltran was a guy that played in 140 games while recovering from knee surgery and had a good year.
The only thing they really have in common is age, injury concerns, and offensive potential. Berkman was a buy low guy coming off a bad year, whereas teams could be buying high on Beltran depending on how the market develops.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
Hm, that's a good point on the buy low vs. buy not really as low thing
I keep forgetting just how much Beltran bounced back in 2011.
i'm not okay with rebuilding
While we are coming off a world series win with
Carpenter, Wainwright, Garcia, Yadi, Berkman, and Holliday still on the roster.
Grit != flat out sucking.
uh oh
Seems like a good year to take a step back and set sights on 2013 and beyond. I’m willing to give them a mulligan in 2012 to do so.
2012 is one of the best windows possible for the Cards to compete – especially vs. 2013. The Brewers are likely without Fielder, the Cubs are down. A number of our key guys are only getting older – specifically Carp and Berkman. With Adam back, there is little reason to believe we won’t be one of the best teams in the NL. The 1 or 2 year deals that immediately make the team better are exactly the type of thing we should be doing.
i don't see bdw paying top dollar for any FA ever
may have to do some of that this year, but i see it waning as the farm builds and trades become more the norm
TLR is gone, long live the king
Welp
@jcrasnick: As @JoeStrauss has reported, the #Cardinals reopened Pujols talks with a 5-year offer in November. Albert was not pleased
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I dunno. This is the first I've ever heard of this 5 year offer
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
so they basically played it perfectly.
if pujols signed for 5/140 i think most of veb would have been all up on that contract’s nether regions. i think pujols was probably justified in feeling a little miffed, if he was miffed.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
I think this is what probably perturbed Albert
I wonder if Mo and the FO, ultimately wrongfully, thought that no one was going to offer Pujols a 10/200M+ deal and thought they had the full leverage to push for something shorter term.
Anyone surprised Edwin Jackson hasn't
Gotten more,attention yet in free agency? I wonder what kind of deal he will get?
by mick311 on Dec 9, 2011 12:43 PM EST via mobile reply actions
3 years
I think people were partly waiting for better pitchers to sign. Jackson is too inconsistent
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Dec 9, 2011 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
kyle lohse signed in freaking march 2008. matt holliday signed in january 2010.
boras does want boras wants.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
More food for thought...
Does Yadi follow his bff, AP to LAA after next season? When I checked contracts, I noticed Iannetta’s contains a club option for 2013. LAA could very well decline Iannetta and sign Yadi. Hope not. Yadi is my favorite Cardinal…has been since he belted that blast against the Mets in the NLCS. (Still my favorite moment from that entire post-season.) I’m sure it wasn’t a pre-meditated calculation on LAA’s part when they traded for Iannetta. But it is a strange coincidence.
i think we will have to overpay quite a bit to keep yadi
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
I'm afraid that his departed buddy
may have ruined any chance to sign Yadi to an early extension at any kind of discount. But who knows.
well, according to the hardball times yadi's amazing defense is still underrated
so, an overpay on its face might not be the worst thing
Depends on how savvy other teams are about defense.
It’s possible that it’s not widely known that Yadi was actually the best all-around catcher in the NL last year. I’d pay him $15M AAV over, say, 4 year and not call it an overpay at all.
Wait he's 30 years old this year??
Man, fuck aging. I’d do it anyway, but damn, he’s been around forever.
damn i thought he was like 26-27
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
He's 29 this year
At least, Baseball Reference has 2011 as his age-28 year, which would make 2012 his age-29 year.
he will turn 30 in july
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
well yeah, i mean i wasn't disagreeing with you
i was just informing the blog of when yadi turns 30
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
I'd guess Mike Scocia
would be the perfect guy to help the Angels make that determination.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 9, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting.
Scioscia’s reputation is for being allergic to advanced stats, which makes me think he’d be inclined to underestimate Yadi’s value (which is based on cutting-edge defensive stats). But he also is known for having hard-ons for defense-only catchers. So, hmm.
in no world would i give yadi 4/60
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
Given how difficult it is to quantify catcher defense
I suspect it is very difficult to actually overpay for catchers. If there is a position where intangibles matter and defense is hard to put a number on, it is catcher. Molina seems to be universally lauded in both aspects and I would bet that we will look back on catchers someday and marvel at how undercompensated they were.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
Thing is,
if we haven’t figured out how to quantify catcher defense at this stage, is it really likely we ever will?
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
I don't see how that relates to catchers though.
They don’t field balls in play except on rare occasions.
Catcher defense is going to be quantified by valuing the running game (and the lack thereof) and valuing a catcher’s game calling ability, which is hard to make independent from coaching decisions and gameplanning done by scouting.
I just don’t see how hit f/x really impacts those numbers.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
The f/x camera systems
are being used to provide data on catcher framing for one thing. It’s a very specific example of something that was, until recently, difficult to quantify. Now you can develop heat maps and see which catchers produce better than expected framing results. Boom! New catcher metric.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
But don't we get that with pitch f/X already?
How does hit f/x help that?
Also, can we totally control for human error from umpires enough to get a specific run value from that metric? The research I’ve seen just doesn’t do enough for me to totally believe it, for one.
For two, this seems like a really easy skill to learn if it provided as much value as everyone says it does. It’s also a form of “cheating” in a way, which could be nullified with a rule change.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
This is one of those times where public metrics
lag proprietary metrics. Clubs are working with/on stuff like this.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
You saw the HBT new model on catcher defense, I presume?
According to that, Yadi was worth something like 6 wins last year. Huge amount of hidden value in guys like that.
I personally think that is even lowballing Yadi
C that do what he does are as rare as Tulo and considerably less expensive
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I'm not sure I believe that though.
I’ve seen several studies that suggest some pretty fucking crazy valuations for catchers. Right now, some of that value is being paid to pitchers. (If a catcher can increase the strike % that is reflected in a pitcher’s stat.)
That said, it seems like a poorly defined realm of quantification that will see some significant improvement in the next 5-10 years.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
Agreed
I think the method is interesting, but I don’t see how you can separate that value and give it to either the pitcher or the catcher on an individual basis.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Yeah, I'm excited to see the modeling get rigorous.
Teasing out the relative effects of pitchers and catchers seems possible. Especially if we can figure out how to get a gyroscope involved.
So it's kind of the ultimate moneyball position?
At least when it comes to the disconnect between evaluation and true contribution?
I'm sure there's a chance yadi would go there, but i don't think it'd be friendship
i mean that obviously didn’t keep pujols here.
I think in 2013, the cardinals are definitely in better position to give him a higher contract than the Angels, especially with all the young pitching in the pipeline, i’d think they’d be willing to do it, simply because how awesome would it be to have yadi handling shelby or martinez?
he’ll definitely get on the market but who knows if he’d leave. doesn’t he like matheny?
by molina mo problems on Dec 9, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
why don't i have the new twitter yet?
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
Whoa...
I just opened it up and am confused.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
damnit i want it
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
has this been mentioned yet??
JCRMarlinsbeat Juan C. Rodriguez
Samson: #marlins offerred nowhere near $275 million for Pujols. Offer a little over $200M
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
...
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
nope. and that confirms the gut reaction i've had all along
that nightengale is full of shit.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
I think it's much more likely the $275M number was a plant by Lozano trying to deflect criticism of Pujols.
And that the Marlins are now correcting that falsehood to save face.
We'll never know for sure what terms were actually discussed.
Suffice to say, the Angels, in terms of dollars and a full NTC, was likely a far better offer than he got anywhere else.
And when you price in the availability of moving him to DH, it might not be such a bad deal for them. The Cardinals, however, cannot do this. Therefore, we simply could not match it.
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Ooh the political style pujols cartoons
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Dec 9, 2011 1:05 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Is it just me, or would Ozzie or Hornsby be on Mt. Cards instead of Lou?
Question Answered: Not Pujols. Not Luhnow either. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY TEAM?!?!?!
Or at least also on the mountain
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
just a cartoon
but in fairness Mt. cardinal would be huge….Ozzie for sure, What about Red? just cause he is a beloved figure
because TLR
oh, so beloved figures get on the mountain now?
so, just throw Jack Buck on there too why don’t ya. I’m sick of all these Big Mountain Cardinal “fans.” The game is played on the field.
nice
not sure what you meant or why so harsh..statistically your right…again its just a cartoon
because TLR
That's because you aren't smart enough to get it
/only knows how to lash out
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
thought that too,
but hornsby had a bunch of years as a non-cardinal at the end of his career (compared to Brock’s 4 at the beginning). Ozzie belongs over Brock though.
Verducci Winners & Losers at winter meetings
Verducci on ESPN:
Winners: StL Cardinals for not having that huge contract that would cripple them long term.
Losers: StL fans who won’t get to watch Albert for the rest of his career.
I agree. Well put.
We just don't recognize the most significant events of our lives while they're happening. - Moonlight Graham
by Gibby45 on Dec 9, 2011 1:17 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
man, i wish we would just go sign someone already so we have something else to talk about
i’m getting tired of the albert stuff. it’s emotionally draining.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
You can talk about why you never pursued a sports job above
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
iz bad at the maths
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
actually, i
wait i will respond above
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
yoenis cespedes!
5/60 (not going to happen as i feel this is probably much too low).
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
Mozeliak on 101espn just said it's unlikely he pursues fielder
dunno if this has been reported
Cards fan in Seoul.
Albert Pujols is the hero saint louis deserves, but not the one it can afford right now. So we'll strike him out out because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's an A-Rod
by letsgostlcardinals on Dec 9, 2011 1:25 PM EST reply actions
Yeah, i figure he would say it
I just thought it was interesting that he brought it up instead of saying he can’t discuss it, blah blah blah. Of course, that could be all talk.
Cards fan in Seoul.
Albert Pujols is the hero saint louis deserves, but not the one it can afford right now. So we'll strike him out out because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's an A-Rod
by letsgostlcardinals on Dec 9, 2011 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
We went to the moon, in 1969
Not 1970 but a year sooner
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
We went to the moon, in 1969
THAT’S WHEN WE MADE A LANDING THAT WAS LUNAR
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
uh oh. I can't wait for a conspiracy theorist to come out now
Cards fan in Seoul.
Albert Pujols is the hero saint louis deserves, but not the one it can afford right now. So we'll strike him out out because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's an A-Rod
by letsgostlcardinals on Dec 9, 2011 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
COURNETY LOVE HAD KURT KILLED
wait wrong conspiracy
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Dec 9, 2011 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
and now for Gerund
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
cournetiestesque
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
Oh, the hugh grantity!
Cards fan in Seoul.
Albert Pujols is the hero saint louis deserves, but not the one it can afford right now. So we'll strike him out out because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's an A-Rod
by letsgostlcardinals on Dec 9, 2011 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
wat
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
I just fixed all of our problems
Trade Carlos Martinez and Adron Chambers for Alexei Ramirez
Sign Cespedes
Muchos Cubanos up the middle
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
and because i'm a sadist...
here, so we can’t forget what hit us
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
TV money
With the news of the Angels re-upping for big money on their TV deal, and the Rangers doing the same recently, why do the Cardinals not consider the same thing? It seems their TV coverage has a very wide area. I sure wouldn’t mind some extra revenue to be able to increase the payroll beyond 110M. Has anyone heard any news regarding the Cardinals and their current TV deals?
St. Louis fans. They don’t get to watch Pujols chase records and burnish his legacy as a Cardinals icon. But don’t blame the ballclub or even Pujols. Pujols essentially became too good and too expensive for the size of the market — particularly one that hasn’t cashed in yet on the new RSN boom like the Angels and Rangers. St. Louis still has six years left on its local TV deal. They could also start their own RSN, paralleling what the Yankees and Red Sox have done, but St. Louis ranks 24th out of the 30 media markets measured by Neilsen. The Cardinals might not have enough eyeballs for the TV calculus to work.
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/tom_verducci/12/09/winners.losers.winter.meetings/index.html#ixzz1g45f0Oqi
I guess that answers my questions, my I’m really surprised the Cardinals are so low in ratings.
I don't think that has to do with ratings
so much as just pure population.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 9, 2011 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
that doesnt mean the cardinals have low ratings
just that the st. louis is a small market
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
they're not
they have some of the highest in-market television ratings of any team in baseball, iirc.
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
I'm going to assume all this yellow is about coming-of-age and Final Fantasy.
/shift-a
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
This is the part where we just changed to disc 2 and are still kind of shocked by the the recent plot twists.
Albert apparently left the party after betraying them and becoming a villain. We’re devastated but at least we saved our game frequently enough to prevent any sort of disaster.
Some of us are still holding out hope that he’ll pull a Golbez and be good again by the end of the game.
Also, he was such a strong character that it made certain parts way too easy, so now it will be fun to be more creative with the other party member’s skill sets and maybe get some cool new characters.
by mattybobo on Dec 9, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Not sure if this has been posted but worth the read...
On Pujol$’s departure via CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/09/opinion/pearlman-pujols/index.html?hpt=hp_c2
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
I always wondered if this was the real situation.
People have a right to be surly. Oh well. I think the clubhouse maybe happier. I have noticed a lack of response from the players. Again, we will never really know.
TortyCraig
My guess as to the meaning of Yadi's neck tattoos is that they are the symbols from an ancient civilization for "Caught Stealing."
yes please
@Ken_Rosenthal One member of #Marlins drawing more trade interest than any other: @LoMoMarlins. Highly, highly unlikely that team will move him.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
we'll take him!
the LoMo and Berk show will be magnificent
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
Get it done, Mo.
"Nothing Motte does is quiet. It's mostly screamy and intense." - sheckiezx
"I'm a graduate of the Mike Shannon School of Diction" - Al Hrabosky
by monkeysareblue on Dec 9, 2011 7:53 PM EST up reply actions
lol at the people freaking out about dotel leaving
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 1:59 PM EST reply actions
i still want to know if he's taking the squirrel.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
it's in the hall of fame, actually.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
i thought i saw the whole list of the stuff they took!
clearly i only saw the abbreviated list. you gotta link
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
was jok
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
I still can't find the complete list, as this just says "includes" the following
- David Freese’s jersey "shredded" by his teammates along with the bat with which the Series MVP hit his game-winning home run in Game 6.
- Albert Pujols‘ spikes from Game 3 when the Cardinals’ slugger tied a record with three home runs and set a record with 14 total bases.
- Chris Carpenter‘s World Series Game 7 game-worn home jersey.
- The bat used by Allen Craig to hit his Game 7 home run. The score, which broke a 2-2 tie, turned out to be the game-winner.
- The bat used by Lance Berkman throughout the World Series. He batted .423 and scored a team-high nine times.
- Caps worn by retiring manager Tony La Russa and pitching coach Dave Duncan.
- Road cap worn by Carpenter after his 1-0 shutout over the Phillies in Game 5 of the NLDS and in away games throughout the post-season
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
i wasn't sure if this was VEB worthy or not, but anyways here goes (OT)
i was checking my voicemail on my cell this morning and saw that i missed a call. i didn’t recognize the number, but i thought it would be entertaining to listen to it anyway.
it was from a kid named chris, who said we had a mutual friend. he didn’t say who the friend was. he went on to say that he has feelings for me even though he doesn’t know me, and wanted a man like me in his life.
now, i am not gay. i do have a gay cousin, and respect that, but i am not a believer in that sort of thing… so i was, needless to say, speechless.
i found this both funny and amazingly creepy. and, of course, something like this would happen to good ol’ f’n zoomzoom. and i can’t wait to see the reaction on gibby(45)’s face when he sees this.
THEY DID IT FOR TORTY! 2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
twitter
someone please link to azru's earlier post.
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
I don't think that was what he was talking about
I mean, unless you think zoomzoom is his actual name
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
it's not?
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
No, it's f'n
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Dec 9, 2011 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
the call was not for you, he asked for a man
you’re a fetus
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
by d-dee on Dec 9, 2011 2:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
WTF
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
i think you might be getting trolled
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
don't knock it 'til you try it.
I say you listen to what he has to say, indulge in what he is offering, and see where that takes you.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
I think we should let it happen organically
then ask Aranathor for advice.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
in all honesty.
I had a friend who encountered a similar situation (only it was a girl who made a similar move on him). After a way-too-brief vetting period, he ended up having her come visit him (he lived in LA, she lived in StL). It went fine, for the first two days. Then on the 3rd day, he emerged from a shower and she was crying hysterically, packing her bags and threatening to kill herself. She had gone through his text messages and saw that he had been texted by other girls.
After her return to St. Louis, she commenced to go through all of the pictures in which my friend was tagged on facebook, and photoshopped her head on the body of every girl that also appeared in those photos, reposted them and tagged herself in them.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
i don't think it will get to that stage
but if we do indeed have a ‘mutual friend’, i’m gonna need to give them some talkin’ to.
THEY DID IT FOR TORTY! 2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
twitter
Zoom
Can you bring me a pair of undies and some other pants from home? I seem to have shit myself somehow.
We just don't recognize the most significant events of our lives while they're happening. - Moonlight Graham
by Gibby45 on Dec 9, 2011 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 9 recs
Literally lolled
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I miss hitting on IHB
I guess what I was doing for hummor turned out to be too creepy for some. My love for IHB got voted off the island last week.
I still love her tho.
We just don't recognize the most significant events of our lives while they're happening. - Moonlight Graham
laugh now required
sorry IHB
We just don't recognize the most significant events of our lives while they're happening. - Moonlight Graham
no worries G45
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
On a serious note
Zoom is a journalism major, but now thinking he might not like that path. Would be good if you could share your perspective with him somehow.
And, I promise I won’t bother you again … not even a Christams card (can you name that movie / character)
We just don't recognize the most significant events of our lives while they're happening. - Moonlight Graham
You don't believe in gay people?
They’re not like Santa Claus or optimism. They’re real.
by Houdinimachine on Dec 9, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
i was hoping no one would pick up on that sentence.
it seems best to leave it alone.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
yeah, starting to border on politics/religion
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
SLASH GAYNESS
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I know. There's a bear here that needs a poke. But I guess I won't.
ALBERT PUJOLS RESIGNED.
SIGN PRINCE FIELDER
[poke] the bears out in provincetown.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
(yeah i was amused but i chose to not comment on that given the serious subject matter)
Sign Yoennis Céspedes?
A large hairy gay man?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
No. The bear is a metaphor for a comment I found ignorant and offensive.
ALBERT PUJOLS RESIGNED.
SIGN PRINCE FIELDER
this is something from a tv show i saw recently isn't it?
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
workaholics?
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
You otter speak your mind
Or else it’ll just eat away at you
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Yeah, this one. You monster.
he stopped, thank goodness.
ALBERT PUJOLS RESIGNED.
SIGN PRINCE FIELDER
does that mean you come loaded for bear?
(I’m done now)
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
by TomCat009 on Dec 9, 2011 2:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I had a buddy that we called The Big Twink
We told him it was because he looked like Twinkie The Kid (the Twinkies mascot) (and in fairness, he kind of did). There was another guy we called Bear, and we told him it was b/c he was rugged and into the outdoors. Both nicknames lasted about two weeks until old Bear googled Bear and Twink and the fun was ruined.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
by Alxfritz on Dec 9, 2011 2:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
too bad you'll be out of town when I visit in January
you could’ve learned my first name and then we’d sit together and laugh at how awesome we are
Still not a werewolf.
i'm not sure if you know, but the earth is actually flat
the sun is real, it’s about 350 miles up there and it looks like a big lightbulb when you get close
Sign Yoennis Céspedes?
if you ever want a laugh,
poke around the forums on this site a bit.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
o.o braintwin event
look what you’ve done now. now somebody needs to push the button every 108 minutes.
Sign Yoennis Céspedes?
i found the site a while back
and posted a bit trying to explain how the earth wasn’t flat. oh, younger, earnest, more foolish me.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
actually, I think I'm going to join.
Exactly a week ago I told my entire discrete math class that the earth was flat when we were covering topology
Still not a werewolf.
WE KNOW
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
filthy pescatarian
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
I don't eat fish! Please stop spreading filthy rumors.
ALBERT PUJOLS RESIGNED.
SIGN PRINCE FIELDER
by a fink on Dec 9, 2011 2:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
wait i thought you did
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
WHICH ARE CLEARLY FISH
I MEAN IT SAYS FISH RIGHT IN THE NAME
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
by il rosso on Dec 9, 2011 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
well i don't know what the proper term is for the banned subject matter it is approaching, but i know its not good!
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
Just shout Title VII
over and over again
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
title vii does not prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
or Creed/Political Affiliation
so VEB is a Title VII compliant site(we ditched Title IX once we realised that only allowing one male written for each female written comment was killing the totals/Making about 4 of you work 18+ hours)
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
title vii does protect religious beliefs.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
Right so anyone touching on anything that violates Title VII
shouldn’t do it on VEB
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
yes. but they should also steer clear of political affiliation and sexual orientation
which doesn’t violate title vii but is still bad internet forum discussion
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
For some reason I had been under the impression that
race, creed, affiliation and identity were all protected classes. That must just by the policies of the companies I have worked for as EOE
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Lets just all agree that Creed the band sucks.
And Creed Bratton rules.
"He probably misses his old glasses."
This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
a lot of people are. and that is why i had this conversation with you.
my job in this world is to educate!
but really, also so people will just stop saying wrong things. title vii prohibits discrimination based on race, color, national origin, religion, and sex.
a lot of state laws and local laws extend those protections to sexual orientation.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
oh and yeah almost every company - well the bigger ones
include that stuff.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
I just wanted to make a joke about language
Sadness
by Houdinimachine on Dec 9, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
It's okay, I get ya
This line is a very thin one. I mean, just look downthread and you see sexual jokes, and apparently those are a-ok on this website. Don’t worry, there are plenty of grammar mistakes you can profit off of in the future.
by hr on Dec 9, 2011 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhh let's just stop this discussion here
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
This comment appears to have come far, far too late.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 9, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
actually, mysterui and i commented at basically the exact same time,
almost immediately after our parent comment.
it didn’t stop the ensuing conversation, though most of it stayed away from the edge.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
WSOY WSOY WSOY WSOY WSOY
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
I've been prank called before too
f’n zoomzoom
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Assuming the outlay of money for both would be in the $50M range
would you guys rather have Cespedes or Darvish?
I think i like cespedes more for our team
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
my problem is i haven't seen recent footage of Darvish
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
really?
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
when you include the posting.
i think that the bid will be surprisingly low, though. The market on Japanese talent is a little touchy right now.
This is what I was thinking
I think 15-20M might win it
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 9, 2011 2:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I've got Yu Fever
but I’d take either one. I’m just stoked about buying up young talent in the free agent market rather than having to pray that 37 year old players don’t break down.
yu will be north of 60 million in posting fees
and i could see him wanting something like 6/70 for a contract. i doubt he could be had for anywhere near 50 million.
if cespedes is only 50 million, i’d do that in a heartbeat, if it’s 5 years.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
I think that postin fee is way over what it will be
We shall see
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 9, 2011 2:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Bernie, you have a call on line one from Burwell
Let’s take a look at the national reaction to Pujols’ defection. I suppose Cardinals fans can take some comfort in knowing that virtually no one of any significance really ripped the Cardinals for their offer or for declining to match dollars with the Angels. Quite the opposite, actually. It just reaffirms my belief: reasonable and intelligent people understand this situation.
No to Pena! No to Rollins!
Furcal + Cespedes/Darvish
I reluctantly believe in you, John Mozeliak.
RELUCTANTLY.
If I hadn't already booked a flight to LA for the break
I would to St. Louis and we’d all get piss drunk.
Still not a werewolf.
You... chose LA over StL? Did they offer you more money?
ALBERT PUJOLS RESIGNED.
SIGN PRINCE FIELDER
by a fink on Dec 9, 2011 2:13 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I remembered that when he posted. so it's kind of like visiting St. Louis, right?
Still not a werewolf.
oh dear. it's going to be empty.
i’m going up to visit grandparents in northern california for the holiday.
help yourself to the tahini.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
sweet! hummus on il rosso!
I’ll be there the 6th through the 12th, so leave the back door unlocked.
Still not a werewolf.
damn, i forgot to pick up tahini.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
ARE OUR PIES NOT GOOD ENOUGH
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I"m going to be in St Louis most of break. If anyone wants to get piss drunk with me let me know.
I was offered a big pay raise to fly to Miami, but I chose St Louis because I’m a better person thank clank. person for whom other people are important.
ALBERT PUJOLS RESIGNED.
SIGN PRINCE FIELDER
SAINT LOUISd
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
since i'm currently browsing through flash games
don’t get all fancy with your crazy west coast time when you finish submachine
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
that was already on my to-do list for the break
submachine, not getting fancy wtih west coast time
but that’s an option, too
Still not a werewolf.
I have a feeling he's gonna be late with the next installment, just like he was almost 2 years late with the last one
but the most recent pastel release (w/ a different artist) stirred up speculation that there were so few releases because he is Working On It. I’m excited.
of course, i deliberately stay away from his blog so i don’t get my hopes up. he has a lot of cool art and stuff in archives.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
i won't get drunk with you guys but i could drive you all back to your basements
so no one gets in trouble
d-dee is always the dd
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
wait, i meant like making mad bank
not the other part.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
which reminds me,
Sorry Cardinals645, I didn’t mean to out your name.
That said, if you wanted anonymity, you shouldn’t have made your twitter name your real name and then responded to me on twitter. What was I supposed to do?!
Oh wait, probably DM you on twitter.
Ooops
I didn’t want to be all weird, “HEY BUT UH WHO ARE YOU”
Still not a werewolf.
lol no worries.
Didn’t originally plan on making my twitter anonymous or associating it with my VEB account. Too late now; the streams have been crossed.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
if something has been posted here
contact az or danup and ask for the comment deleted
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
Opposite problem-
realize my handle has been hijacked on other sites by people who are most definitely NOT me.
"Nothing Motte does is quiet. It's mostly screamy and intense." - sheckiezx
"I'm a graduate of the Mike Shannon School of Diction" - Al Hrabosky
by monkeysareblue on Dec 9, 2011 7:52 PM EST up reply actions
secondhalfmatt already has dibs
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
yes.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
then i can meet my favorite poster.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
that was f'in zoomzoom.
i have a picture of pujols, holliday, and musial up in my apartment now though that i got for my birthday. yeah….
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
phew.
@miklasz Cardinals GM John Mozeliak tells us (on The Bernie Show) that team is “highly unlikely” to pursue Prince Fielder.
THEY DID IT FOR TORTY! 2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
twitter
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
ALBERT PUJOLS RESIGNED.
SIGN PRINCE FIELDER
by a fink on Dec 9, 2011 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAH
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
You know he did grow up
He was a man! He had a Beard!
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
wait, we didn't already have this thread?
am i reading comments that aren’t there?
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
If you can't afford Albert
You can’t afford Prince.
Boras has to be lining up for 8 – 10 years and 225 minimum. The Prince contract has to fit between Howard and Albert.
We just don't recognize the most significant events of our lives while they're happening. - Moonlight Graham
I think there's a very legitimate chance he'll sign for 4 or 5 years and try to get one more big payday after.
ALBERT PUJOLS RESIGNED.
SIGN PRINCE FIELDER
I expect an 8-10 year deal
with an opt out in 4-5 to score a bigger deal (CC Sabathia style).
We just don't recognize the most significant events of our lives while they're happening. - Moonlight Graham
As soon as I stopped laughing a few days later
I would start crying and probably not stop until January
Still not a werewolf.
I can get a million cardboard boxes for about $5500
A lifetime of Imo’s isn’t going to mean much
by hr on Dec 9, 2011 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
damn.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
3/90
Get it done, Mo.
"Nothing Motte does is quiet. It's mostly screamy and intense." - sheckiezx
"I'm a graduate of the Mike Shannon School of Diction" - Al Hrabosky
by monkeysareblue on Dec 9, 2011 7:50 PM EST up reply actions
For the bad jokes alone,
I am simultaneously looking forward to and dreading Wong’s ascension to the major leagues.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 9, 2011 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
I'm more impressed that he has such a badass first name.
Kolten sounds like a Jedi.
by Houdinimachine on Dec 9, 2011 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
i know someone named how kolten is pronounced,
and he is such a “not a bad-ass” that perhaps my opinion of the name is tainted.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
well, then he can shoot his load
and all the fans in the stands will be amazed at how far those balls travel.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
by il rosso on Dec 9, 2011 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
it'll be long and hard
with wong at 2b, the other team would receive a through thumping
by hr on Dec 9, 2011 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
We really just need to see how well Wong can fill the gap up the middle.
The last guy just kind of Skipped on the job.
WWCD? CDGAF.
All Cardinals infielders must have nicknames that make them sound like a bad STL take on the A-Team.
2011 started with THE FREESE, the Riot, the Skipper, and the Mang.
WWCD? CDGAF.
THE SHREDDER
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
i don't think he has that type of power (correct me if i'm wrong someone)
but Vina at his prime except without steroids, maybe? .800 OPS, good defense, high average. that’s what i’d love.
Sign Yoennis Céspedes?
I take Wong as a .280/.360/.430 guy
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
mysterui
i take wong
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
by il rosso on Dec 9, 2011 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
ugh, beat me to it.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Please don't tell my wife
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
well, i purposefully misinterpreted your statement for
fifth grade humour purposes, so it would be unfair and misleading to tell your wife.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
too late.
i just texted her.
her response:
Well, it’s in blockquotes, it must be true. Can’t say I’m surprised.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
by SheckieZx on Dec 9, 2011 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Oh to have a
real leadoff hitter with OB .360 or better again. I swoon at the thought.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 9, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
i know a kid named Dongdong Song. Would that suffice?
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Yeah that's probably Wong's upside
But with what we know so far, that seems reachable
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
All i can say about the upcoming season is
If FSMW and U-Verse force me to miss another 20 games, puppies better beware
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Dec 9, 2011 2:43 PM EST reply actions
Looks like I'm headed to Puerto Rico the week between XMas and New Years
Have fun freezing, y’all.
Boog would have made that play.
nice! where? i spent a lot of time in Rincon for many years, awesome if you like to surf.
Sign Yoennis Céspedes?
Aguada, Aguadailla, and general West Coast
Been there once but didn’t get to see much other than from the car.
Boog would have made that play.
You guys, I really want Shooter Hunt to make the majors
but he’s 24 with a BB/9 of 12.9 last year in A+ ball.
Can’t we just give one of our better prospects that name?
at this point, he's not even a prospect.
13 walks per nine innings?
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
looks like shooter
(puts on sunglasses)
can’t hit the target
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Dec 9, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
No recs?
Looks like your shooter joke
(sunglasses)
mis-fired.
by mattybobo on Dec 9, 2011 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
YYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH
"Nothing Motte does is quiet. It's mostly screamy and intense." - sheckiezx
"I'm a graduate of the Mike Shannon School of Diction" - Al Hrabosky
by monkeysareblue on Dec 9, 2011 7:48 PM EST up reply actions
The question then becomes... how the hell does he have 9K's per 9 with that terrible command?
Seems to me, I’d just not bother swinging.
by Houdinimachine on Dec 9, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
Players can't swing at balls over
the plate if they’re busy cringing.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 9, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
Hit the bull.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
Basketball Drills
Anyone have an particularly effective basketball drills?
Boog would have made that play.
I would assume pretty much any drill would work on a basketball
They’re pretty thin skinned.
by Houdinimachine on Dec 9, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Will a multi-material bit work or do I need a specific bit?
Smartass. ;-)
Boog would have made that play.
i did, but David Stern vetoed it.
Sign Yoennis Céspedes?
by tehzachatak on Dec 9, 2011 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Passing and movement
I’ve got lots of kids who have no idea what to do once they get the ball.
They just kind of lock up.
I’ve put in the rule that you cut to the basket after making a pass, but I need something to tell them to do after they try that and if the cutter doesn’t get open.
Boog would have made that play.
This is more for 4th grade girls who are new to the game
Maybe just set up a couple of basic plays to run?
Boog would have made that play.
Just make them do a three man weave for two hours
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
That may be the most pointless drill in history
In college we used to play a game called flickerball that was effective at working on passing. Basically, you play basketball but you’re not allowed to dribble. All you can do is pass, move off the ball, or shoot.
It’s VERY effective but even that’s above the heads of some of the newer girls.
Boog would have made that play.
yeah, the three man weave is basically worthless
at teaching anything but hitting a moving target with a pass, but that is a good skill to have.
are they having trouble dribbling as well or just passing?
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
I only have a couple of real athletes
The rest are C or even D players. I’m going to play a packed zone, lane-denial defense but I need to come up with some ideas for offense.
Of course, my offense may just be my three best players trying to steal the ball and beat them in transition.
Boog would have made that play.
You'll be seeing almost all zone too right?
by Merry CRasmus on Dec 9, 2011 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
Probably
Most girls can only make it from the low post on the blocks.
I don’t know if we topped 10 points in a game last year.
Boog would have made that play.
You can set a rule in practice
Either no dribble inside the 3 point line, or 1 dribble. Pretty much gotta move without the ball then. Can also have them just pass it around the wing and have the passer make a cut through the lane and then rotate with the other wing. Have the low post flash out to the baseline and the high post down to the block, etc.
I think we talked last year about something like this, and you get basically no practice time with them right?
by Merry CRasmus on Dec 9, 2011 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
I'm running the team this year
Last year the coach would literally spend 30 minutes of the hour practicing dribbling and most of the rest scrimmaging.
The played pretty well for me when he was on vaca for two weeks but once he got back we struggled to be competitive.
He was also trying to get 3rd grade girls to shoot with one hand, which just wasn’t happening.
Boog would have made that play.
So an hr a week?
I think it pretty much has to be all basics and fundamentals, and then a couple go to plays to run out of timeouts and whatnot.
If you have a good ballhandler or 2, you can double stack 2 people at each block, with a person dribbling at the top of the key. Then whichever way the ballhandler starts to dribble the person lower on the block (preferably your better shooters) flashes out a little like they are trying to get open that side. Then the dribbler reverses to the other side and the flasher runs off 3 screens to the opposite baseline.
They should be able to get the ball 12-15 feet away and be able to shoot or drive. Then the 2 people that ran the screen on the block go to screen for the one left on the other side. Opens up the lane and then the 1 on opposite block waits for the double screen and flashes across the lane to the ballhandlers side if the drive is taken away,
Works better with man, but with kids that young probably doesn’t matter. Sound more complex talking about it than diagramming or running in practice. But you gotta have a ballhandler and I don’t know if you have that. If you don’t and it gets stolen nobody but the one will get back. If you make the pass, you can get a decent shot and have 3 in good position for the putback (which is probably 80% of your offense)
We did that and a couple other plays with kids in 5th and 6th, but they had more time and maybe a little more experience.
by Merry CRasmus on Dec 9, 2011 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
Inbounds play under your hoop
This could get you a couple easy buckets. Have 4 lined up right along the blocks, on the side the inbound is coming from. All right next to the lane facing the passer.
The first one (closest to passer), turns around and loops (on the side outside the lane) back behind the 3 point line as deep as needed. Does it as soon as the ref hands the ball over. It’s basically the safety in case the easy baskets aren’t there.
Then the other 3 flash as that first rubs off their shoulder. Second in line goes out to the wing on the baseline (same side as passer). 3rd in line goes to opposite block. Last one flashes straight to the block same side as passer.
That pretty easy for kids to learn as long as you tend to keep the same people in the same spots. It throws a lot at the defense fast too and right around the hoop too.
Whatever you run has to be easy because you won’t want to spend all practice on it. I think those 2 might work with kids that young though. Might take them a while to most fast enough with it though, not sure. That first one has to move instantly so you don’t leave the poor inbounder out high and dry.
by Merry CRasmus on Dec 9, 2011 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
I'll play devils advocate here. . .
In 3rd/4th grade, you shouldn’t even worry about the score – it should be ALL about teaching fundamentals.
And at that age, yes, dribbling and shooting with one hand are the correct skills on which to work.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 9, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
The real issue is movement off the ball
Most of the girls just stand there.
Boog would have made that play.
Two years ago with my boys
I played a triangle and two offense.
Our core play was a rotation where the triangle would rotate 120 degrees and you try to drag the defender on the block up the post and get the ball to the player coming in the back door to the low post.
Boog would have made that play.
It worked quite well
But I’m basically a baseball guy making sh!t up as I go along.
I’m trying to accumulate some actual knowledge.
Boog would have made that play.
if movement off the ball is the real issue here,
i would try to draw up some simple plays that underline the importance of movement, and explain why you want to be moving (to get open for a pass, to draw defenders away to open up lanes, etc) and hope that by teaching the underlining fundamental they will understand why you are having them do these plays…
spitballing here.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
Do you agree...
…that the general goal should be to work the ball to the low post and/or try to open up the low post?
Basically just always work to the low post?
Boog would have made that play.
if that's the only place they can hit shots from,
it would seem that’s where you have to get the ball. so yes.
i’m at work, or else i would try to draw up like the one play i remember from my elementary school days. are you facing zones or man defenses?
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
i think that with 4th grade girls, you need to create space down low
so that when you attack the basket its not a traffic jam. i would assume some type of hi/lo offense would be your best bet if you have 1 real playmaker.
I like the general idea of the 1-4
I’m probably going to have one good dribbler on the court at any one time.
I’ve been thinking about treating the guards as interchangeable, but that’s not realistic, at least in terms of dribbling skills.
Boog would have made that play.
also, i would imagine
that another viable strategy is to harp perimeter defense and try to score on as many fast breaks as possible. might be a better bet to get the ball in the hands of the best player in the open court
I've thought about playing a box and one with my best player at and one
Boog would have made that play.
I've thought about a play called "Lights"...
…where on the call basically everyone spreads wide or goes up the post, trying to clear out room on the low post that someone can steak into through the back door on the baseline.
Maybe do that out of a triangle and two offense and have the back side forward come in the back door.
Boog would have made that play.
What are you wanting to do?
I am no coach, but i can tell you fundamental drills.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Have you ever tried keep-away in basketball
We play that for hours and hours in soccer and I wonder if it would work in basketball.
Boog would have made that play.
When did Heyman start writing headlines for the WWL?

by all4tookie on Dec 9, 2011 2:50 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
i love the rays so much
locking young players up to team friendly deals immediately
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
people are disgusting....
1. it’s disgusting that people would do this to somebody
2. this quote is even more disgusting:
Matthews should be upset. Heckling a family wearing the jersey of a player is low, even for Philadelphia. But part of me thinks some of this is on Matthews. If you know the way some fans at the game can get, why do you let your family go to the game wearing your jersey? You might as well draw a big target on their back under the words “heckle me.” Don’t wander into the lion’s den and then complain when you get bit.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 2:53 PM EST reply actions
In case you're unfamiliar with y! sports,
Chris Chase is a fucking moron. Everything he writes is laden with stupidity and false information. The only reason he has a job is because Yahoo is stupid enough to hire him.
by hr on Dec 9, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
so i shouldn't read him again?
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
less depressing crap, eh?
UC San Diego computer scientists intended to understand how to create rainbows digitally. And along the way, they made some discoveries about the physics of rainbows that occur in nature — including the awe-inspiring double rainbow.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
it still hasn't sunk in...
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 3:01 PM EST reply actions
.

"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2011/12/7/2619792/late-night-veb-pujols-negotiations-overflow#84993042
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
little known fact:
reading this post is why pujols signed with the angels seven hours later.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
SO IT IS ALL AARON'S FAULT
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 9, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
That's why I expect to be called Sir.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
...which orbits Prince Fielder.
I’m done here
by hr on Dec 9, 2011 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
If I were looking for the blueprints to a building, where would I get them?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Well, it's my apartment building. It has a long history though and I'd like to know more about it
I discovered a set of hidden ladders yesterday and I’d like to do some research before I use them.
But I’ll probably just go up tonight regardless
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
residential areas are sometimes harder to get the plans for,
but you could try these guys. i assumed you live in kansas city proper, mo.
it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be
I think you should stop right there
I want plausible deniability.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
by TBender on Dec 9, 2011 3:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
call CTU
they have “schematics” on every building ever built.
in all honesty, you will be very hard pressed to find them. the city usually does not keep permit sets on files after occupancy. if your building is recently rehabbed, you may ask the management office or the developer if they can get you a copy of what you are looking for. however, as a developer, i can tell you that it is often a pain in the ass to track this information down and your calls will probably not lead you anywhere.
on another note, there is little chance that there is a random unsafe ladder just hanging around on the building. too many insurance and code risks.
Winner of the prestigious 2011 MVL as presented by Alxfritz.
"You didn't win LOY, but you did win MVL, which is a prestigious award I just made up. And that’s something RiverRat can never take from you." - Alxfritz
You just look up that department in the phone book
You know, the “Not Stuff Terrorists Would Want” department.
by mattybobo on Dec 9, 2011 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Overflow Thread
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Now that La Russa is gone
I’m looking forward to the farm system. At least Mike Matheny may like the kids, unlike La Russa’s disdain for them. At least it seemed that way.

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