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Around SBN: Trent Richardson Interviews Fellow Brown Brandon Weeden

Bob Gibson and the 1964 World Series

[Ed. Note: You had me at 21" black & white RCA. -azruavatar]

This post is for those that have a keen interest in the history and the heritage of the St.Louis Cardinals and to offer an opportunity to live (or relive) a moment from the majestic past of the Redbirds and to better appreciate just how great a competitor Bob Gibson, (Cardinal HOF, who is still often mentioned on this site) really was. Those of us who have followed Cardinal baseball through the Pujols era have certainly been fortunate enough to witness two of the greatest World Series wins in baseball history but that being said, It is hard to imagine anything topping 2011 but 1964 might have been just as good. Below, I will post a link where you can listen (or you can download if you prefer) the NBC radio broadcast of the seventh game of the 64 World Series, but before you do, permit me to recap a bit of first 6 games that precede this deciding game.

Also let me state that I think I watched every pitch and play of this game on an old black and white 21 inch RCA TV. (we did not have living color in those days) and I watched close to every play of the whole series because I had waited 18 years, since 1946, to see the Cards in the WS again and the only thing that put a damper on my excitement was that Stan Musial had missed it by one year but that is another story.Anyway, back to setting up a brief but hopefully adequate description of the events that made possible this 7th game.

Star-divide

Game 1 was played in St. Louis and was started by Ray Sadecki, a lefthander who lived with control problems his whole career with the Cards. Sadecki could be very good or very bad but on this day he was just good enough, holding the Yankees to 4 runs over seven innings and the Cardinals meanwhile had little trouble solving Yankee ace, Whitey Ford. The Cards won the first game handily 9 to 5. They hit well throughout the lineup and rookie right fielder Mike Shannon provided the big blows with a 2 run single for an early lead and then put the game away with a 2 run homer in the bottom of the 6th. The Cards were off and running, winning big 9 to 5.

Game 2 was started by Bob Gibson. Gibson did not start game 1 because he had pitched 2 complete games in the final week of the season and had lost the last one with a hard luck 1 to 0 loss to the Mets in a Friday night game on a scratch hit by Met first baseman Ed Kranepool. Johnny Keane wanted to give both Sadecki and Gibson 4 days rest to start the Series, so hence, Sadecki inherited the game one start. Gibson pitched well enough but lost this game also. He gave up 4 runs on 8 hits and struck out 9 in 8 innings pitched. Trailing 2 to 1 through 6, Gibson gave up a 2 run 7th inning double to Mickey Mantle, who plagued Cardinal pitching the whole Series and that was enough for the loss. Barney Shultz and the bullpen suffered a 9th inning meltdown, giving up 4 more runs and the Cards ended up losing 8 to 3.The momentum shifted as the Series moved to NY tied at one.

Game 3, The first game in NY was a pitching duel between Jim Bouton (NY) and Curt Simmons (St.L).Simmons allowed a run in the 3rd. Bouton allowed a run in the 6th. Simmons left after 8 with the score tied. Barney Shultz relieved Simmons to pitch the 9th and was greeted with a home run by Mickey Mantle. Game over, enough said.

Game 4, Cardinals 4 Yankees 3 This Sunday game was the gut wrencher. The Cardinals were down 2 games to 1 to the mighty Yankees and the Yanks jumped on starter Ray Sadecki in the first inning like a horny Bull on a heifer in heat (no offense MooCow). They scored 3 runs before even making an out and still had the bases loaded when Johnny Keane strolled out slowly to the mound and after a long conference signaled to the bullpen for Roger Craig. A veteran occasional starter and long reliever, who was warming up like a maniac in the pen. It was then that the GOBS looked down and decided to have a little fun with this contest and first miracle happened. Craig was magic, had every pitch in his arsenal working and came in and set the Yankees down in order with nastiest variety of breaking pitches I had ever seen. He threw slow curves, he threw slower curves and he threw hard curves (what you would call sliders today, but they did not call them sliders back then unless they were over 92 MPH and were thrown by Bob Gibson). Craig carved up Yankee hitters for 5 innings and then the GOB stepped up again.

The Cardinals loaded the bases in the top of the 6th and good old reliable Ken Boyer hit one out of the park for a grand slam and the Cards were suddenly in the lead 4 to 3. The GOB were still not through with their fun and games though as Ron Taylor, a journeyman pitcher who the Cards had picked up to shore up the bullpen, relieved Craig to start the 7th (while I screamed my disapproval at the TV) and to my amazement did his best Roger Craig imitation for the final 3 innings shutting down the Yankee without a hit. The Yankees managed only one other hit after their first inning outburst (a 4th inning single by Clete Boyer, off Craig) and the Cardinals evened the Series 2 games to 2. Amazing Game, GOB 4 Yankees 3.

Game 5, Last game in NY. Cardinals get a break, Yankee ace Whitey Ford was suffering from a little elbow stiffness and would be held back to pitch either game 6 or 7 in St Louis. Bob Gibson took the mound again for the Cards with only 3 days rest. The game was another Pitching duel between Mel Stottlemeyer (also 3days rest) and Gibson, but in the 6th the Cards took a 2 nothing lead on consecutive singles by Lou Brock and Bill White. That lead held until the bottom of the 9th when with 2 outs, Dick Groat made an error on a ground ball to SS by Joe Pepitone, Yankee first baseman and Tom Tresh followed with a home run to right center and suddenly the game was tied and the shutout gone. Gibson got the next batter and the game went into extra innings tied. That did not last long though as with one out in the 10th Boyer got a hit, Groat made up for his error with a hit bringing up a young catcher with a flair for the dramatic by the name of Tim Mc Carver and Mc Carver put it out of the park for a 5 to 2 lead. Gibson, not to be denied a complete game victory, came back out and shut the Yanks down in the bottom of 10th. Bottom line: 10 innings pitched, 0 earned runs allowed and 13 strike outs. It was a masterful effort by Gibson and the Cardinal left NYC fans in shock and headed back to St. Louis with a 3 to 2 Series lead. I was overjoyed.

Game 6. What can you say, The Cards just lost it, though they did lead 1 to 0 for four innings off of a first inning run by McCarver but the Yankees tied it in the 5th with a run and scored 2 more in the 6th on consecutive home runs by Mantle and Maris. Curt Simmons, the starter pitched into the 7th, giving way to Ron Taylor with one out after giving up a single to Clete Boyer. Simmons pitched well enough in this Series with nothing to show for it but he was in the twilight of his career and simply was not a 9 inning pitcher anymore. Taylor held the Yankees at bay through the 8th and Barney Shultz, the knuckle balling closer came in to pitch the 9th and to keep it 3 to 1 Yanks. Poor Barney Shultz, the Yankees jumped on him every time he pitched. I cannot remember if he even got anybody out. Before you could say squat, the Yanks had scored 5 runs climaxed by a Joe Pepitone grand slam home run. The Cards added a run in the bottom of the 9th.to little avail. Final: Yankees 8 Cardinals 3.

The powerful Bronx Bombers were not going to fold up and go away. Things did not look too rosy for the upstart St. Louis Cardinals, the Nation Press surmised. Whitey Ford was set for game 7 for the Yanks while the Cardinals were looking for a volunteer. Gallant effort, but no way to stop the Yankees now was the general opinion; not as hot as Mantle was. It did look bleak but there was a bit of good news when I heard Yogi Bera announce in a news conference on KMOX the night before the game that Ford was still feeling a little tightness and soreness in his elbow and would not start game 7. Instead he would go with Mel Stottlemeyer, who had faced Gibson in game 5. The plan was to hopefully squeeze four innings out of Sttotlemeyer before turning the game over to the bullpen. Keane countered by announcing that Bob Gibson in turn would start for the Cards and go as long as he could. In effect it would be a bullpen game for both clubs but the Yanks had the slight advantage.

Both clubs would be starting pitchers on 2 days rest but Stottlemeyer would be coming off a 7 inning outing while Gibson would be coming off 10 inning last outing. It would be a test of will and endurance for sure. I was scared and I did not like this at all. Gibson had been over used and abused in the stretch drive for the pennant and I did not want to see him hurt, after all he was just reaching his prime years and also I hated the thought of seeing him lose.

Game 7 Cardinals win 7 to 5: I will not get into covering any specific details of this game, other than covering a few things that cannot be deciphered from just listening to a radio broadcast. The first being, that if you can take my word for it as an eye witness to the game, Gibson was fogging that ball. He had to be hitting the upper nineties with a number of his pitches and it was amazing how often he seemed to be able just reach back and blow the ball by hitters when he had to, and after pitching 10 innings two days earlier. To me this will always be one Gibson's greatest games although he gave up 5 runs in it I give a lot of credit for heart and this is how he pitched this game, with heart. Gibson was not perfect by any means but how could he be under the conditions he was toiling. He pitched a strong five shutout innings but Bobby Richardson led off the 6th with an infield single to 3rd. Roger Maris singled to right and then Gibson made his first mistake. He left a hanging slider to Mantle and Mantle did not miss it, he creamed it. A long shot to right center, nothing cheap about it. Unfortunately you could not make mistakes to Mickey Mantle, especially when he was hot and hitting left handed. Luckily the Cards had built up a 6 to 0 in through the 5th, featuring home runs by Brock in the 1st and Boyer in the 2nd. Gibson recovered well from the Mantle blast and came back for a strong three innings but you could tell he was laboring to finish the 8th. That was why I was shocked to see him come out for the top of the 9th, especially with a 7 to 3 lead but I guess he wanted to finish what he had started. Gibson was a bit stubborn.

I was somewhat relieved though when he started strong by striking out Tom Tresh, but then Clete Boyer worked him for a long count and ended up hitting a home run to left field about thirty feet from the foul line; no big poke just about a 375 foot big fly. Looking at Gibson, I thought he would cry but he muscled up to strike out pinch hitter Johnny Blanchard for the 2nd out. That left only one hitter, Phil Linz to retire for the win but Linz who was an infielder with not that much power also mustered up a poke right down the left field line about 10 feet fair and it went out, about a 340 foot deep cheap fly. This was when something happened that I will never forget; a very amusing and unusual incident.

After the home run, the umpire handed McCarver a new ball and Tim started wandering slowly toward the mound while looking over at the dugout toward Johnny Keane. By this time you could see by his face that Gibson had become somewhat emotional. He came off the mound toward home plate, toward McCarver and you could tell that Gibson was motioning and screaming for Tim to throw him the ball. McCarver would look toward the dugout and Keane and then look toward Gibson who was coming toward him with so much anger he had tears in his eyes. Keane then started a slow trudge out of the dugout and toward the mound. Finally, when Gibson was within a few feet of him, McCarver tossed him the ball and Gibson returned to the mound and on past the mound for a few feet out toward 2nd base and stood there with his back to McCarver and Keane, staring out toward center field with the ball in his hand. Keane never made it to the mound; he obviously had better thoughts about trying to remove Gibson peacefully and besides he probably did not have the heart to pull him. Whatever. He and McCarver had a short conference between home plate and the mound and then Keane walked slowly back to the dugout. Gibson returned to the mound and retired Bobby Richardson on a popup to the 2nd baseman for the win. Like I said, Gibson was a bit stubborn.

Now for the radio broadcast: The link will take you to a page where you will see an online audio player on the top right of the page. It will contain a window within it, listing the files that can be played. The 1964 WS game is file 13. If you would rather download and play on your computer with windows media or whatever is your preferred player just scroll on down the page. It can be downloaded in the mp3 format and some other format I was not familiar with; thanks for reading. http://www.archive.org/details/baseball_otr

Comment 484 comments  |  32 recs  | 

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Thanks!

To celebrate, here’s a small compilation of Gibson footage.

Still not a werewolf.

by clank on Dec 27, 2011 1:34 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

Very nice post, ridgesee. 'Twas me first World Series as a Cards fan - also the best.

The late David Halbertstam has a wonderful book on the subject, October 1964. Uses the games as a metaphor for the changes in American sociology.

So long ago, yet can clearly see meself skipping school gleefully and watching black and white TV with its postage-stamp sized screen. Great memories, and my thanks for the recap and links.

Have a terrific Year of the Dragon.

Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken

by akaitori on Dec 27, 2011 2:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for posting that, clank

That is some very good footage of Gibson. Shows clearly how good his stuff was. Hope somebody
digs up some more footage.

Also for those that download the audio of the 7th game, You will note that the audio is not great but good enough. My guess is that some fan recorded it using a mike and an old reel to reel recorder off the radio as you can someone messing with a mike from time. Definitely worth listening to though.

by ridgesee on Dec 27, 2011 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Great Post!

That’s a pretty famous game for our family. My mother was a teenager in ’64 and decided, as a lark, to go to the game. She and some friends drove up that morning and bought their tickets from the ticket office. No StubHub back then. On occasion, she will get out her "64 World Series program and share it with us. I also have a ’64 World Series Champs pennant that she gave me hanging in my classroom. I knew the Cards won the game and the series. I knew Gibson got the win. Your post did a great job fleshing out those games. Thanks!

"There is one word in America that says it all, and that one word is, 'You never know.'" Joaquin Andujar

by Big Mike on Dec 27, 2011 9:52 AM EST reply actions  

pretty famous game for my family, too

And for an old friend…

My father, brother Glenn and I were Cardinals fans who lived in Jersey…I was fourteen…My father had just lost his mother and brother to heart attacks at literally the same moment a few days earlier…but he’d promised my brother and me that he’d take us to the Series if the Cards played the Yanks… and he kept that promise…He was ashen, but we went and saw the game w the Mantle walk-off… It was glorious to be at the game but devastating to watch that ball go out… Was it Charlie James in right going back as if he had a play on the bomb Mantle hit into orbit?…My brother and I still talk about it… And so does my best friend Frank who I was about to meet in high school…He was there as well with his father, who would die maybe a decade later… In my office, I have a picture of Mantle rounding third while Ken Boyer is walking off the field. Frank, a hopeless Yankee fan, gave it to me for a birthday present abut ten years ago. I have to remind him from time to time that we won the Series.

Thanks for this memory re-run!

by SLOKev6 on Dec 27, 2011 11:24 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

i remember watching it on tv

some of my friends and i were going to go when we heard that there bleacher seats, you could see them on tv
but we decided we’d not take the chance on missing any of the game by taking the bus downtown

bad choice as it turns out

TLR is gone, long live the king

by sportsman on Dec 27, 2011 11:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Funny

I was talking to my Dad last night about the 64 Cardinals

by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 27, 2011 10:29 AM EST reply actions  

This is awesome.

Thanks ridgesee!

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Dec 27, 2011 12:00 PM EST reply actions  

Glad to see this on the big board

I can appreciate that Musial was missing for you. If it’s any consolation (and I don’t have the citation at my fingertips), Musial is reported to have said that if he had stayed the Cardinals wouldn’t have won the pennant. I’ve always understood that as a reference to the trade for Lou Brock.

by bobcat80 on Dec 27, 2011 12:10 PM EST reply actions  

Sort of a footnote to the above. I recall Harry Carary moaning about the arrival of Brock - he strikes out too much - and the departure of Broglio.

Seems that Lantern-Jar Ernie was a running mate of Harry’s on Gaslight Square. . . . Hilarious in retrospect. Harry and Ernie compensated on Rush St. and Brock fetched his compensation in Cooperstown. . .

Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken

by akaitori on Dec 27, 2011 9:32 PM EST up reply actions  

true, musial did say that

that they would not have won the pennant
but i was bummed

TLR is gone, long live the king

by sportsman on Dec 27, 2011 11:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Since it seems this post

might receive some attention, let me say now if it had not been for Red Baron this post would not have made it, due to a stupid mistake by me

Thanks Baron for the rescue.

by ridgesee on Dec 27, 2011 12:10 PM EST reply actions  

ridgesee, do you recall the 46 series?

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 27, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

My Grandmother lived on Smiley in South St Louis

She was very hard of hearing, and lived on the second story. There was no air conditioning, so the windows were always open. If you got within a block of Grandma’s house, you could hear Harry on the radio.

Older than any three of you.

by Remember Kenny B on Dec 27, 2011 1:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think I recall the 2011 series as well as you remember 64.

That’s a terrific story about 46. Thanks for sharing.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 27, 2011 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Most excellent...

How I miss the Sporting New’s of old…

by Tuning in from Korea on Dec 27, 2011 8:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Didn't Sporting News fold?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 28, 2011 9:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Another great anecdote. Glad you've cared enough to share.

Brings another bit of warmth to far away Thailand, where like you, I remain a life-long Cards fan.

Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken

by akaitori on Dec 27, 2011 9:34 PM EST up reply actions  

awesome story

in case you want to see some of that again, MLB has the highlights from that series (and the other two series that decade) available for pretty cheap ($14). It’s not the whole series, by any means, but it’s pretty neat stuff:

link.

"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?

by SleepyCA on Dec 28, 2011 12:05 AM EST up reply actions  

This is also for you, Contennental

I thought about this later and thought you might get a kick out it.

About the sixth game of the Series, after I started to really listening to the games,
I kept hearing the name Schoendienst repeated (ground ball to Schoendienst, base hit by
Shoendienst etc) I honestly thought they were saying Stringbean and I figured this was a
nickname and wondered what was his real name and why just this one player was never
called by his real name.

A few days later a friend of mine at school, showed me how to read box scores and when we
were going over one of the games. I saw Terry Moore Musial,Slaughter,Marion,Schoendienst
etc. but I could’t find Stringbean so I asked him. “Well which one of these guys is
Stringbean” I certainly didn’t recognize Schoendienst as being him. "Stringbean? he said,
“They ain’t no Stringbean.” I looked again closer and saw Schoendienst and asked, "well
How do you pronounce this guys name. He did and then I knew who Stringbean was. Later
when Hee Haw started comming on on Tv, I would always think about that.

I actually remember a lot more about the 1947 WS with Brooklyn and the Yankees than the’
46 Cards Sox series. I was a baseball expert by then. That was the Year that Jackie
Robinson broke the color barrier and you might think the deep south would be pulling
for the Yankees because of Robinson but not so.The yankees were so hated that
everybody in my little town pulled heavily for the Dodgers and admired the way
Robinson played the game.

Also there a railroad that came through our town and it had a small depot. There was a
teletype machine inside and baseball scores came through on it all the time. If the
Cards were playing an afternoon game you could go knock on the window and the
attendant would give you the Cardinal score or there was often some of the mill
workers sitting outside on break and they would know. It was a Stan Musial town.

by ridgesee on Dec 29, 2011 6:57 PM EST up reply actions   4 recs

Heh, this is all terrific.

I hope you won’t hesitate to share memories like this here. As you can see, a lot of us love this stuff.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 30, 2011 11:15 AM EST up reply actions  

wow

This might be the best thing I’ve ever read on this website. And that is saying something. Thanks for sharing, ridgesee!

In the poker game of life, women are the rake.

by el birdo in soko on Dec 31, 2011 9:07 PM EST up reply actions  

understatement of the year ... Great one Ridgesee!
Since it seems this post might receive some attention …

11 in 11' √
12 in 12', WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 27, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

This is fantastic, ridgesee. Thanks.

Gibson on 2 days rest after throwing 10 innings, goes out and throws 9 more. Just staggering.

Also, this should be someone’s sig.

the Yanks jumped on starter Ray Sadecki in the first inning like a horny Bull on a heifer in heat

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 27, 2011 12:15 PM EST reply actions  

My dad was sort of mentored by Kenny Boyer

and went to every home game in that series. Boyer gave him the new glove he’d been trying to break in, just before the series because he didn’t feel comfortable without his old glove, and my old man still has it. David Halberstam’s book, October ‘64 is a pretty great recap of the intricacies of the fading Yankees’ dynasty in ’64 and the rise of the upstart Cardinals. I read the book back-and-forth with my old man on a road trip we took together in ’99. There were all great dramas that make for special baseball stories in that series: each team with a Boyer (advantage: Cards); the young multi-cultural Cardinals with several black players, plus Julian Javier, and the Yankees with a couple of newly acquired Latino players (on the bench), but only an aging Elston Howard on the field; and the obvious great drama of how the Cardinals had come back from a huge deficit to edge the Phillies.

by hangingfromatree on Dec 27, 2011 12:15 PM EST reply actions  

Hangingfromatree - great name by the way. Have you read the Halberstam book?

Highly recommended.

Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken

by akaitori on Dec 27, 2011 9:35 PM EST up reply actions  

From your interests . .. Are you in Denver? If so,

John Sherfifus who used to be the cartoonist for the Post lives in Denver. Very good guy, very amiable. You might drop him a line. He’s all over the Internet. . .

Adultery is the application of democracy to love.
H. L. Mencken

by akaitori on Dec 28, 2011 10:06 PM EST up reply actions  

and

64 nl all star infield, all cardinals

TLR is gone, long live the king

by sportsman on Dec 27, 2011 11:31 PM EST up reply actions  

64 series box scores, courtesy Baseball-Reference

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 27, 2011 12:18 PM EST reply actions  

I wish that in a 7th game of a WS today, a pitcher would just turn his back and make his manager

just turn tail and head back to the dugout without even a conference. What a story that would be today -

by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 27, 2011 12:22 PM EST reply actions  

I don't think even DNGAF

could do something like that. There’d have to be a guy like Milton Bradley among the pitching ranks. Maybe Jose Lima would have done it, but he wasn’t good enough.

by hangingfromatree on Dec 27, 2011 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course, that wasn't just any pitcher.

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Dec 27, 2011 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Incredible year!

I was 12 in 1964 and my mother took my brother and I to Wrigley field to see the Cards with Gibson pitching. Still one of the top 5 games I’ve ever seen or will ever see.

by Buckeye Redbird on Dec 27, 2011 12:32 PM EST reply actions  

The Boyer slam

My Dad and I were in the old ‘57 Chevy going somewhere, trying to hear the game as it faded in and out on the AM radio. I remember hearing that Boyer had hit a drive but the radio faded to static and we didn’t find out that it went out for another hour or so. Kenny was one of my all time favorites.

by nitetrane98 on Dec 28, 2011 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

My mom was also 12 in 1964.

She is a huge Cardinals fan, and she absolutely LOVED the ’64 team. Same with my grandfather, he used to speak of the 1964 team in reverential terms (although his favorite teams were from 1942-1946).

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Dec 27, 2011 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I was 7

And every relative I had who cared about baseball was a Cubs fan. 64 was SWEET.

Because of my age, the 64 series cemented my Cardinals following forever, but I loved the 67 team more.

"You've got to have an attitude if your going to go far in this game." -- Bob Gibson

by cyclone on Dec 27, 2011 8:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Terrific post, ridgesee

Like I said, Gibson was a bit stubborn

Understatement of the year

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Dec 27, 2011 12:36 PM EST reply actions  

Me too.

Been a fan of the Cardinals ever since. And, Gibby was my childhood hero. I grew up wanting to be a major league pitcher. Too bad I had a little league arm.

We just don't recognize the most significant events of our lives while they're happening. - Moonlight Graham

by Gibby45 on Dec 27, 2011 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

A radio station in central Iowa used to replay old radio broadcasts of baseball games.

I caught the postgame interviews from one either 1964 or 1967 one day while I was running errands. I’m glad a website has the audio available. I really wish MLB would release old broadcasts on iTunes.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 27, 2011 1:00 PM EST reply actions  

64 was always my favorite

Like you, I was born in 45 and this was my first post season experience being a Cardinal fan. I did not get to watch many of the games, and I was so thrilled about the way we won the pennant, I did not care if they won the World Series or not. A lot of people must have felt this way, because the 33 rpm record that came out with Harry Carry emphasized the pennant, and not the World Series(I still have my record somewhere).
64 was my favorite, but I think 2011 even topped it. They were very similar- the big(and improbable) comeback, the unpopular mid-season trade, the manager quit, etc. This was a great post they made me teary eyed.

Older than any three of you.

by Remember Kenny B on Dec 27, 2011 1:04 PM EST reply actions  

Post-Dispatch Water Cooler

“Surely Beltran is more than a time-share player, right?”

The founder of VEB, lboros, answers:

In the Cards’ biggest games of 2011, Jay lost playing time to Skip Schumaker. It stands to reason that he’ll lose time to Carlos Beltran, who is (even at his age and with a bum knee) a better player than either Jay or Schumaker. Jay will still make plenty of starts (probably 100 or more) spelling regulars who are injured, DHing, or just in need of a day off. He’ll probably be very effective in that role. And there’s always a chance he could earn more playing time by outperforming Craig and/or Beltran. But the at-bats will (and should) be Beltran’s to lose.

(I still can’t get used to lboros with capital letters.)

Oh, and Rick Hummel states the following:

And don’t eliminate Skip Schumaker from the center-field derby if Jay falters.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 27, 2011 1:14 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

I still can't believe its not iboros.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Dec 27, 2011 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Me too

I thought it was until someone had mentioned the same thing

bollocks

by SecondHalfMatt on Dec 27, 2011 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's a little nostalgia for you

My Cardinals: Larry Borowsky of VivaElBirdos.com

By Aaron Schafer Wed., Apr. 8 2009

You know, back when I started putting these together, I had thought to lead off with Larry Borowsky, since he’s really the guy who gave me my start writing about the Cardinals. I was just a blogger over at Viva El Birdos, which Larry founded, and he asked me if I wanted to contribute to the front page one day.

From there, Tom Finkel here at the RFT asked me to write a season preview article in 2008, and that turned into the gig that I have now. It seems too good to be true, and it’s all thanks to Mr. Borowsky.

11 in 11' √
12 in 12', WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 27, 2011 6:21 PM EST up reply actions  

it's a Larry interview

11 in 11' √
12 in 12', WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 27, 2011 7:24 PM EST up reply actions  

thanks for the lboros quote!

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 27, 2011 10:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Any thoughts on a possible Molina extension? Years? Dollars?

I’ve seen one blogger proposing 4/$24.

"I don’t like the feeling of losing."---Chris Carpenter

by cardsfan59 on Dec 27, 2011 1:26 PM EST reply actions  

Molina is pitifully underpaid ($7M in 2012).

The market for catchers is weird and I’m often surprised that for all the talk of their impact on pitching staffs and the game in general, they don’t seem to have high salaries. I think you can make a reasonable argument for 4/$40. Anything less than that and I’d pounce on it. I can’t imagine him taking a paycut as part of an extension though. 4/$24 seems way too low.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Dec 27, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

It thought it was way low too.

The blogger appears to believe there is no market for defense dominant catchers,

"I don’t like the feeling of losing."---Chris Carpenter

by cardsfan59 on Dec 27, 2011 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Yadi had a .349 wOBA last season, .814 OPS

Zips has him at .737 OPS, 101 OPS+, the projections on FanGraphs are even a bit higher. As far as I can tell, he led all NL catchers in OPS+ last season.

You wouldn’t sign Yadi for his bat, but it doesn’t seem like the liability that it was early in his career.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 27, 2011 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep.

and as Uncle Lights informed me, he is VERY clutch.

(sorry, i couldn’t help myself)

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Dec 27, 2011 1:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree. I think 4/$40MM sounds about right.

I’d be pleased with anything less than that.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 27, 2011 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

does the extension kick in after his current contract?

so starting with his age 29 season? i bet he could get 5 years on the open market.

Sign Yoenis Céspedes
Twitter | Google+

by purple_haze on Dec 27, 2011 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

That's a fair point.

I’m thinking of an extension signed before he hits the open market.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 27, 2011 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd probably go as high as 4/45 or something like 5/55.

His defense is quite excellent and a catcher who can hit with any degree of productivity is uncommon. Again, the market for catchers is kind of weird and 5/55 would make Yadi one of the highest paid, IIRC. Goold tweeted something to that effect when BRains was making nonsensical blog posts the other week.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Dec 27, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

there were two catchers

that made more than 10M last year according to cots, Mauer and Posada. Kenji Johjima made 8. No one else made more than 5 last year.

I would be happy to pay 10M+ for yadi, because I don’t think there will be anything comparable on the market.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Dec 27, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

McCann made $6.66MM in 2011 and will make $8.66 next year.

John Buck will make $6.5 next year.

Some other data points, back in 2004, (at age 32) Varitek signed a 4yr-$40MM deal. In 2008, Pudge Rodriguez made $13MM, and in 2007, Jason Kendall (!) made $13MM.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 27, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

When did Kendall sign that contract?

That is crazy. I remember him being good as a young catcher for the Pirates but 2007 would be after his leg injury, wouldn’t it?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 27, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

From wikipedia...

On November 18, 2000, Kendall signed a six-year contract extension worth $60 million. The contract made him the second-highest-paid catcher at the time, behind Mike Piazza.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 27, 2011 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Here are Kendall's WAR/wOBA from 1996-2004

1996: 1.0/.339
1997: 4.8/.371
1998: 6.1/.396
1999: 4.1/.420
2000: 5.0/.388
CONTRACT
2001: 0.8/.302
2002: 2.8/.318
2003: 4.7/.361
2004: 5.0/.352

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 27, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

wow

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 27, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

43 career WAR for Kendall

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 27, 2011 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

OK, cots sucks

I was surprised there weren’t more guys on the list. That should have been a red flag.

After looking at the guys that you listed, I think 10-12MM is good.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Dec 27, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Catchers and High Salaries

Despite catchers’ generally held influence on pitching staffs and the game in general, I think there’s two things that hold back salaries—career longetivity and the offensive side of the game.

Because of the physical demands of the postion, catchers typically have a smaller window in which they’re at the top of their game than other players, simply because they wear down faster. That, in turn, can cause caution from general managers in awarding high-priced contracts when years are added on.

On the offense side, many teams are willing to carry catchers who are weak at the plate if they believe in that catcher’s ability to run a staff. With in-game management from a catcher being hard if not impossible to quantify and plate performance relatively easy, I think that in turn holds down average salaries.

by Forsch31 on Dec 27, 2011 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

He's due to make 7 in 2012

He’s been putting up 3ish fWAR for the last 4 seasons. Even if you think WAR fully accounts for catcher defense, that’s still well underpaid.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 27, 2011 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

that's less than he is currently paid.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Dec 27, 2011 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

It's less in AAV but slightly higher in total value.

"I don’t like the feeling of losing."---Chris Carpenter

by cardsfan59 on Dec 27, 2011 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm sure.

Here is the post.

Link

"I don’t like the feeling of losing."---Chris Carpenter

by cardsfan59 on Dec 27, 2011 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough.

I put the odds of that offer being made or accepted at 0%.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 27, 2011 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I have not heard anything about them working on it

yet, id prefer to see it happen before the season starts

because TLR

by punchinjudy on Dec 27, 2011 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I hope that offer is not made

that would truly be insulting imo

"I don’t like the feeling of losing."---Chris Carpenter

by cardsfan59 on Dec 27, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

That would be amazing

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 27, 2011 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

What would you guys think about

Mike Napoli? He’s a FA after the year… Obviosuly a pretty significant defensive downgrade, but god damn he was crushing shit in the WS.

by Wombat x on Dec 27, 2011 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

isn't he working out an extension with Texas?

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Great post!

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Dec 27, 2011 1:40 PM EST reply actions  

Also, if I'm looking at this right,

Carlos Beltran had a higher OPS+ last season (152) than Albert Pujols (150).

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 27, 2011 1:57 PM EST reply actions  

hopefully he can repeat that!

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Dec 27, 2011 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

That makes sense because Beltran had a higher OPS (.910) than Pujols (.906).

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 27, 2011 2:04 PM EST up reply actions   3 recs

I know someone who's a student

They’re on winter break at the moment, though.

by mojowo11 on Dec 27, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I need someone who would be allowed access to

The schools archives. Nothing nefarious. I know at my school students were permitted access to any archival materials they wanted.

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 27, 2011 3:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

If I was still there I'd be happy to help you out.

Alas my group has all moved on from there or else I’d pass a name along.

"…this crowd is on their feet for the Canadian Star Spangled Banner." - Mike Shannon
\mm/

by ducttape16 on Dec 27, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

What kind of archives?

If it is in the library, any Illinois resident can have access (through a librarian, and with some patience).

Play ball!

by IL and StL Fan on Dec 27, 2011 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

There are a few rare collections that will be hard to get to.

But unless you read Coptic or Old Ancient Nubian, they might not be of much use to you.

If you mean administrative archives, I have no idea if those are accessible to students (or even faculty) at all.

Play ball!

by IL and StL Fan on Dec 27, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow

Had no clue heyman had left SI

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Dec 27, 2011 3:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Bernie mentioned it about a month ago

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Dec 27, 2011 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

No NBC TV footage is known to exist

Of this series.

As a collector of classic games, we should feel blessed that the entire ’68 series was preserved on kinescope, even if ’64 or ’67 were not.

I’m actually working on a blog post right now for my blog catalogging what WS games actually exist in their entirety (or close to it).

Unfortunately, in over a half decade of collecting not a faint lead has shown up for the ’64 series. I thought I had a lead on the ’67 series from the Boston Museum of History but both MLB and they denied they had copies of 2 games.

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 27, 2011 2:23 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

DVD

I assume the DVDs that have been released in recent years with highlights from the 1960s World Series are not edited from footage but are just newsreel highlights that have been compiled?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 27, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Those are from official World Series films

They were commissioned by MLB at the time. All recorded on film, not for broadcast.

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 27, 2011 3:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

That's what I thought.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 27, 2011 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Love you, Jon Bois

Greatest Sportscasting of 2011

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Dec 27, 2011 2:31 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

"COOOOOOLD BLOODED!"

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Dec 27, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Blech.

They let Gus Johnson call MMA events on occasion and he’s terrible. Fritz and I have (I think …) talked about this before but my only reference for Johnson is MMA. Do not like.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Dec 27, 2011 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

i know very little of Gus Johnson

and I really don’t think that call was even THAT great, I just thought it was a funny line.

Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"

John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."

by SheckieZx on Dec 27, 2011 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

He's not that great at boxing either

I don’t mind him when he’s calling a football game.

by bailorg on Dec 27, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Speaking of MMA - I recommend 'Warrior'

Even if MMA is not you’re thing (like me) if it was a phenomenal movie

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow. 93% on RottenTomatoes

83% from critics. I will have to watch that.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Dec 27, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I can't stand listening to Gus call MMA.

I actually enjoy Goldberg (some Yoda-like tendencies of speech, notwithstanding) and Joe Rogan.

Gus is much better calling college b-ball.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 27, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I like Rogan and Goldberg but I wish they had someone who was a little less homerish with them.

Rogan usually knows what he’s talking about with the jiu-jitsu but has a tendency for bombast that overwhelms his more salient points.

When the WEC was still around (best fights on TV) Mir, Bonnar and Florian all spent some time calling fights and I didn’t care for them though Mir wasn’t awful. At least once Randy Couture sat in as an announcer and was, predictably, awesome at it.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Dec 27, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

DIME QUE NO ESTOY SOÑANDO

haha, Spanish language sportscasters are the best

Sign Yoenis Céspedes
Twitter | Google+

by purple_haze on Dec 27, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

whoa

This is nuts

What unfolded after was one of the most bizarre baseball games on any level. Acting Fielders manager Pete LaCock put out a sort of opposite day lineup, with pitchers playing in the field and position players pitching. Canseco responded in kind, wanting to level the playing field and leaving his team with a battery consisting of himself on the hill and former Rays outfield prospect Joey Gathright playing catcher for the first time in his life. LaCock’s debut as Fielders manager would prove to be his swan song as well, as he wound up quitting himself following the game due to the payroll dispute.

Sign Yoenis Céspedes
Twitter | Google+

by purple_haze on Dec 27, 2011 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Jeez, that's insane. Perfect that Canseco was the opposing manager and actually pitched well.

Manchester City: 44 points, 14-1-2, 1st in EPL, +38 GD
Sergio Aguero: 11 G, 4 A
Edin Dzeko: 10 G, 3 A

by cardinalswsbound on Dec 27, 2011 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Awesome post

Thanks for taking the time to write this up.

by hr on Dec 27, 2011 2:54 PM EST reply actions  

After seeing this I know I'm probably scooped but,

the book October 1964 by Halberstam is a really good book about this series. Granted it has a lot of Yankee stuff in it, but very good nonetheless.

"…this crowd is on their feet for the Canadian Star Spangled Banner." - Mike Shannon
\mm/

by ducttape16 on Dec 27, 2011 3:43 PM EST reply actions  

I actually just read it

He doesn’t really succeed in tying it together—he tries to blend the narrative about the season with the player backstories, but ends up with a bunch of largely disjointed short player bios composing most of the book. That said, it’s engaging writing, and there’s a ton of fun information in there.

by Robth on Dec 27, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I read it more than a dozen years ago

and I got a little more out of it than just short player bios. The idea was that the Yankees represented the old guard in baseball; they were an aging team with one last shot at glory, and their team had only one black player. The Cardinals were symbolic of the change not just in baseball, but in the world at large; they were not just younger, they had several black players who were not just role guys (Bob Gibson, Bill White, an emerging Lou Brock and Curt Flood, etc), but who either already were legitimate stars, or were on the ascension. It was a changing of the guard, not only in baseball, but in the greater social picture of the times. I think Halberstam captured that very keenly.

by hangingfromatree on Dec 27, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry, my criticism sounded too harsh

you’re right that there was definitely a well told story about how baseball was changing along with society—and a lot of good stuff about how the nature of society in those days had influenced each of the players and led them to where they were. What I was trying to get at was that I felt like the chapter transitions were kind of jolty, and the story of the season (which he seemed to be trying to weave in) was largely unconnected to the other story being told.

Who knows, perhaps he should have just told the season story separately; I think it set me up to expect that the chronological narrative would be the framework for the story in a way that it wasn’t, which led to the sentiment expressed above.

by Robth on Dec 27, 2011 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Got it.

Haven’t read it recently enough to expand more than I did, but I don’t remember having that sense.

by hangingfromatree on Dec 27, 2011 6:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I have 70-some dollars to the App Store, what do I do?

Manchester City: 44 points, 14-1-2, 1st in EPL, +38 GD
Sergio Aguero: 11 G, 4 A
Edin Dzeko: 10 G, 3 A

by cardinalswsbound on Dec 27, 2011 4:47 PM EST reply actions  

You guys and your smart phones.

You aren’t gonna get a lot of help from me. My wife has a smart phone and I can’t even figure out how to make the telephone part of it work.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Dec 27, 2011 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it was something they used before we had video calls and texting. Pfffft, old people.

Manchester City: 44 points, 14-1-2, 1st in EPL, +38 GD
Sergio Aguero: 11 G, 4 A
Edin Dzeko: 10 G, 3 A

by cardinalswsbound on Dec 27, 2011 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait, I thought you were hangingfromatree though? Now you're landingmyhovercraft?

Manchester City: 44 points, 14-1-2, 1st in EPL, +38 GD
Sergio Aguero: 11 G, 4 A
Edin Dzeko: 10 G, 3 A

by cardinalswsbound on Dec 27, 2011 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I've got a question for VEB

I’d like to send this letter to the Prussian consulate in Siam by aeromail. Am I too late for the 4:30 autogyro?

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Dec 27, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep

only thing left this afternoon is homing pidgeon.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Dec 27, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

When I need to send messages, I only use homing pidgeons

-Chris Carpenter

Manchester City: 44 points, 14-1-2, 1st in EPL, +38 GD
Sergio Aguero: 11 G, 4 A
Edin Dzeko: 10 G, 3 A

by cardinalswsbound on Dec 27, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

picture?

If there’s no picture, it didn’t happen.

by hangingfromatree on Dec 27, 2011 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

the sketch artist is still working on the picture

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Dec 27, 2011 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I googled 'Chris Carpenter' & 'carrier pigeons' and this is the first image.

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 5:16 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I want to do something with this....

But what?

Manchester City: 44 points, 14-1-2, 1st in EPL, +38 GD
Sergio Aguero: 11 G, 4 A
Edin Dzeko: 10 G, 3 A

by cardinalswsbound on Dec 27, 2011 5:39 PM EST up reply actions  

fair enough

Manchester City: 44 points, 14-1-2, 1st in EPL, +38 GD
Sergio Aguero: 11 G, 4 A
Edin Dzeko: 10 G, 3 A

by cardinalswsbound on Dec 27, 2011 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

and rec'd

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I’m pretty sure this is my first green comment!

Manchester City: 44 points, 14-1-2, 1st in EPL, +38 GD
Sergio Aguero: 11 G, 4 A
Edin Dzeko: 10 G, 3 A

by cardinalswsbound on Dec 27, 2011 11:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I used to, but Randy Johnson killed my last homing pidgeon.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Dec 27, 2011 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

WOOOOOOOOO

Two green pics/comments in one thread, I’m on fire now!

Manchester City: 44 points, 14-1-2, 1st in EPL, +38 GD
Sergio Aguero: 11 G, 4 A
Edin Dzeko: 10 G, 3 A

by cardinalswsbound on Dec 28, 2011 1:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Are you chartering the autogyro?

I don’t think that means what you think it means. You’ll have to charter one.

by hangingfromatree on Dec 27, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

If you have an iMac, $70 is easily spent

If you just have an iPhone/iPad, $70 would last me a lifetime.

I didn’t answer your question at all.

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait... paying for music??? I'm confused now.

Manchester City: 44 points, 14-1-2, 1st in EPL, +38 GD
Sergio Aguero: 11 G, 4 A
Edin Dzeko: 10 G, 3 A

by cardinalswsbound on Dec 27, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Windows for apple, and other processing apps

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I have used windows my whole life.

I just made the switch to apple and decided to stick with what I know. Due to the learning curve I am going through, I am trying to simplify by using as many windows-based apps as possible.

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I may be more boring than the average mac user

but I don’t really do much beyond what the built-in apple apps and an old student copy of office can handle.

by DanUpBaby on Dec 27, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I used my iPad for everything up until I got a tv in my office.

Now I never leave this room.

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Any specific apps you like?

I always am interested in hearing how people use their iPads and what they use

bollocks

by SecondHalfMatt on Dec 27, 2011 5:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Mostly internet surfing

I take it to meetings for work to review documents and share files. But really, it’s not a practical work solution. It is handy to sit on the couch and read VEB while watching the Cardinals win the WS!

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah I've always viewed it as something to suppliment a laptop

I wouldn’t want to do a lot of typing or do any heavy spreadsheet work on it

bollocks

by SecondHalfMatt on Dec 27, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

not unless you have the accompanying keyboard

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

True

The company I work for bought some in case people didn’t want to try to use the on screen keyboard. They basically act as a cover for the iPad when they aren’t in use. They attach right onto it.

bollocks

by SecondHalfMatt on Dec 27, 2011 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

So what was everyone's favorite xmas gift?

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 5:04 PM EST reply actions  

barnes and noble gift card

now if someone could just gift me enough time to read 1Q84 I should be set.

by DanUpBaby on Dec 27, 2011 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I will go ahead and show my stupidity...

what is 1Q84?

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 5:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Literature

Linky

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Dec 27, 2011 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I bought 1Q84 about a month ago now

Haven’t opened it yet. When I took it home over Thanksgiving and didn’t even have time to read it then, I knew I was doomed.

by mojowo11 on Dec 27, 2011 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

got a CZ .22 rifle.

That sucker is a beautiful gun that shoots as well as anything out there. Took it out with my dad and brother, and we killed 13 squirrels in 3 hours.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Dec 27, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Take that to my parents house. You can probably kill that mean in a few minutes.

Just have an escape plan since the police won’t like someone shooting a gun off inside the city limits. Plus the neighbor who feeds the damn things may not take too kindly to it either.

bollocks

by SecondHalfMatt on Dec 27, 2011 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

trip to spring training

Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6

by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Dec 27, 2011 5:09 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Same here - trip to spring training and tix to the first 3 home games

#psyched

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Cool

I was thinking about trying to go down one weekend during spring training to catch a couple games.

Did you guys get yours through the Cardinals official thing or did you plan the trip yourselves or I guess planned for you since they are gifts?

bollocks

by SecondHalfMatt on Dec 27, 2011 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

My dad pieced it together himself

Its a guys trip with my dad, brother-in-law, and a buddy of mine.

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 5:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I had lots of fun building my son's k'nex roller coaster

best thing I got was some money to take the kids to a cards game next year.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Dec 27, 2011 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't get anything

my dad gave me 20 bucks before he left for Europe.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 27, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

good one

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 27, 2011 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Poster autographed by a certain prominent Cardinal, until a few weeks ago.

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Dec 27, 2011 6:21 PM EST up reply actions  

the 8 disc WS box set

watching game 3 now, with Rooney and Shannon audio

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Dec 27, 2011 7:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Pair of baseballs signed by Cards HOFers Brock and Musial.

"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie

by hazel on Dec 27, 2011 10:37 PM EST up reply actions  

PS3 w/Skyrim

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 27, 2011 10:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I used to play Skyrim

but then I took an arrow to the knee.

DO YOU THINK IT'S NOT GOING TO BE WHAT IT IS?!!

by Vindicator9000 on Dec 28, 2011 9:06 AM EST up reply actions  

hmm...

I got a kindle, a nice hand made leather cover for it, a nice robe, and a sander…. I love them all.

I think the kindle though.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Dec 28, 2011 9:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, I guess the "haves" just keep getting "have-ier"!

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Dec 29, 2011 10:00 AM EST up reply actions  

You just have the one professional sports team

Wah wah wah, excuse me while I get a tissue, because I’m crying for you.

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2011 10:58 PM EST up reply actions  

What an awesome post Ridgesee!

You really brought it to life

11 in 11' √
12 in 12', WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 27, 2011 5:20 PM EST reply actions  

+1

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 27, 2011 10:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Assume you didn't mean to reply to me but intended to comment on the article instead

or … “your awesome post was brought to life” ha ha

otherwise I’m clueless

11 in 11' √
12 in 12', WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 28, 2011 7:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Great, Great Post, for my all time favorite Card.. Thank you so much..

I was a mere 11 years old at the time, and that was my first World Series as a Cardinal fan, and little did I know that it would be the start of 9 more appearances for the storied Card organization.
The book October 1964 is a very good read.

by Tuning in from Korea on Dec 27, 2011 5:34 PM EST reply actions  

where the hell is everyone?!

dead VEB is dead.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 27, 2011 5:51 PM EST reply actions  

it happens.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 27, 2011 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

two weeks.

i get to change it january 9th, which also happens to be my first day of second semester.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 27, 2011 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

well i guess today is tuesday. so january 10th.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 27, 2011 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

that's not too bad,

considering C@rdball lasts for a month

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 27, 2011 6:02 PM EST up reply actions  

god i'm sick of that.

i’m not sure they guy who won the bet with him is even enjoying it at this point.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 27, 2011 6:14 PM EST up reply actions  

been wondering the same thing.

guess i’m the only one who has to work this week

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Dec 27, 2011 6:23 PM EST up reply actions  

i was at work until about an hour ago.

but yeah, the roads are barren. VEB is barren. the stores are not.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 27, 2011 6:24 PM EST up reply actions  

the empty roads are great

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 27, 2011 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

i agree. especially since half my job is driving around town.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 27, 2011 6:26 PM EST up reply actions  

pizza delivery?

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 27, 2011 6:27 PM EST up reply actions  

medical devices, actually.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 27, 2011 6:30 PM EST up reply actions  

is that a euphemism?

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 27, 2011 6:37 PM EST up reply actions  

no.

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 27, 2011 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

oh

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 27, 2011 6:40 PM EST up reply actions  

i am actually going to leave at 5 today. me being here is a nothing but a facade

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Dec 27, 2011 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

WOW. i'm impressed...

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 27, 2011 6:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I was at work a little bit yesterday but I then left to attend a matinee.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 27, 2011 7:21 PM EST up reply actions  

You can go home

If you’ve billed your 2200 hours and not one minute sooner

Just win

by The Duke on Dec 27, 2011 7:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

VEB's two favorite middle infielders...

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 27, 2011 6:41 PM EST reply actions  

heh, I was in the Kirkwood wal mart yesterday

they still have Pujols and Ludwick sherseys

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Dec 27, 2011 7:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I was in Wal Mart in Salem, IL on Friday and they had lot's of Ludwick and some Pujols on sale rack

What, did they find a Ludkwich shersey (ala indiana jones) warehouse stash, or were they holding onto them thinking he would come back?

11 in 11' √
12 in 12', WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 27, 2011 7:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Ludwick?

Those are almost old enough to be ironically hip now.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 27, 2011 8:08 PM EST up reply actions  

There is nothing ironic about my Studwick jersey

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 27, 2011 8:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Great article.

I’m glad I got to see the 10 inning Mulder/Clemens duo in 2005, but it would have been great to see Gibson in his prime. Read his autobiography a few years ago (the first one)

RE-SIGN EVERYONE

by Notorious PSC on Dec 27, 2011 6:41 PM EST reply actions  

My gosh, I hate to admit it, but gee I was getting a little misty eyed listening to

Joe Garagiola name the lineup for both teams.
Since the game was played on a Thursday afternoon, I can bet by Dad was listening in to this.

by Tuning in from Korea on Dec 27, 2011 6:50 PM EST reply actions  

Folks, I thank everyone that complimented my effort..but

I just re-read my fanpost and discovered a glaring error. It was
near the end of my account of the 7th game when I was covering
the three runs scored in the 6th inning by the Yankees on Mantle’s
home run. I wrote the following statement.“Luckily the Cards had built
up a 6 to 0 in through the 5th,featuring home runs by Brock in the 1st
and Boyer in the 2nd.” When I read this I said Whoa! this ain’t right.
How in the hell did I come to make that statement.

I had tried to check and be as accurate as possible in describing
the first 6 games, but not get too specific about the 7th because of
the radio broadcast link.

Realizing that this HR had come with the Cardinals ahead 6 to 0 and
was not a fatal shot, I also realized I had in haste, said nothing about
how the Cards had managed a six run lead. To avoid confusion by the
reader an wanting to clear this up with just a general statement and move
on, I wrote the above quoted sentence. After a bunch of head scratching
I discovered what I had evidently done. I could’t remember off hand the
scoring so I rushed to pick up the boxscore and read; home runs- Brock 1,
Boyer 2 so I just wrote, “featuring home runs by Brock in the 1st and
Boyer in the 2nd.” Not stopping to think that the boxscore meant Brocks 1st
of the series and Boyers 2nd.

I would have bothered with correcting this error if it had not been moved to
the main post but since it did I know VEB is sharp and somebody will pick this
up so I’ll just sneak this in down at the bottom before it’s caught
I know fourstick will, when and if he gets around to reading it

by ridgesee on Dec 27, 2011 9:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Kyle Lohse

2+ WAR in 2012

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

or

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Bursting into song.

by Aranathor on Dec 27, 2011 7:50 PM EST reply actions  

One word ............. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I know I’m in the minority, but I’m going on record

11 in 11' √
12 in 12', WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 27, 2011 7:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm worried it could be pretty close.

That .269 BABIP combined with his 5.30 K/9 is worrisome.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 27, 2011 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

By xFIP he was a 2 WAR pitcher last year

He’s 34 and there is a chance of injury, so he shouldn’t be projected to have 30 starts again.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 27, 2011 8:06 PM EST up reply actions  

His HR rate isn't necessarily concerns me.

It’s the effect of his BABIP rising to his career rate of about .300.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 28, 2011 9:33 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah, right

xFIP takes that into account as well.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

This could be the 1st year as a Cardinal he is healthy with a good SS behind him (BR only had 218 AB that year)

2008 and 2011 numbers compare favorably with his best years with the Twins 2002;/5

11 in 11' √
12 in 12', WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 27, 2011 8:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I forget is fangraphs WAR using FIP or xFIP

but basically, yeah, strike out more people, walk fewer. HRs allowed will be relevant is FIP is used, flyball percentage will be used in its place if xFIP is used.

K more, BB less, moar grounderz.

Makin' toast!

DING

Butterin' toast!

by dronemc on Dec 27, 2011 8:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm following but for most of Lohse's best years outside of 02/03 his GB rate has been similar at around 42/3%
K more, BB less, moar grounderz.

If this is the case doesn’t defense impact it? Get BB less yes obviously, but you can get all the grounders you want but if defense doesn’t put the runner out numbers are not helped

11 in 11' √
12 in 12', WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 27, 2011 8:23 PM EST up reply actions  

this is the point of FIP

it ONLY counts HRs, BBs and Ks. Any other hit ISN’T counted because of the involvement of the fielders. Hence Fielder Independent Pitching.

Bursting into song.

by Aranathor on Dec 27, 2011 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Well I'm trying to get my head around that with a guy who seems to my recollection an approach of nibbling lower edges of strike zone and is looking to get K or GB when he's on

So I don’t know, if I"m correct and that’s his approach then FIP isn’t the best measure of a pitcher with his approach is it?

11 in 11' √
12 in 12', WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 27, 2011 8:35 PM EST up reply actions  

The last question of your post

is still one of those that’s not entirely answered at this point. As mentioned before, FIP only takes into account the Three True Outcomes – K, BB, HR. Anything else involves players other than the pitcher and batter, and therefore diluted to the point where it’s no longer a “pure” measure of the pitcher’s value/merit/ability/whatever.

xFIP replaces the HR rate portion of the equation with a league-normalized HR per flyball ratio, on the assumption that flyballs turn into HRs at a rate that has little or nothing to do with the pitcher involved, and is mostly based on luck

There are metrics out there that take batted ball types (weak grounder, liner, towering fly, etc.) into account – tRA, a few others – but those categorization decisions are dependent on the biases of those making them – one man’s high arcing liner may be another man’s low-trajectory flyball – and there hasn’t been any consensus on how/if the inherent error and bias in them can be accounted for in a given metric.

FIP is probably the “best” at what it purports to do – capture the outcomes that are solely related to the pitcher and batter – in the platonic ideal sense of the term. I seem to recall a great deal of research suggesting that it’s one of the best predictor stats out there for future pitching performance based on past outcomes. It may, however, not entirely capture the true picture when it comes things like game plan and pitching philosophy.

At this point, there really isn’t one stat to rule them all and in darkness bind them, but some are better than others and for my money, FIP is clearly better than most.

Makin' toast!

DING

Butterin' toast!

by dronemc on Dec 27, 2011 8:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok first off, Lohse actually isn't a groundball pitcher

last year Lohse’s GB% was 41.4% and league average is about 43%. Maybe Lohse intentionally allowed more line drives last year because he knew his infielders were so bad, but that doesn’t make sense because a line drive is worse than even a Theriot-fielded groundball.

Anyway, to answer your question, FIP splits up pitching outcomes into 4 categories: strikeouts, walks, hr’s and balls in play. So because FIP assumes all balls in play or equal, it will underrate pitchers who have good batted ball profiles.

However, a groundball, when hit in play is not actually a good thing compared to a fly ball. The average non-home run groundball is worse than the average non-home run fly ball. The reason groundballs are so good is that they never go for home runs, but FIP already takes out home runs, so groundballs don’t have much value beyond that. Limiting LD is the most valuable thing you can do on balls in play.

If you want a metric that takes into account batted ball rates, try tRA.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 27, 2011 9:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks again VEP, yes forgot Lohse is not a GB pitcher and what average GB% is. Probably due to my understanding of Duncs philosophy, while I do observe that when Lohse is pitching well he seems to have really good stuff which seems to result in Ks and

GB outs….in my mind, which is not necessarily statistically born out.

I read the post inked to and articles that popped up in them and as result of them.

11 in 11' √
12 in 12', WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 28, 2011 6:55 AM EST up reply actions  

When stats kill the English language...
The average non-home run groundball is worse than the average non-home run fly ball.

I’m pretty sure that all groundballs are non-home runs. Unless Tyler Greene hits a slow roller down the right field line….

by Forsch31 on Dec 28, 2011 10:15 AM EST up reply actions  

I was going for symetry

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

fWAR is based on FIP

FIP is based off of HR allowed, BB allowed and Ks. (link to glossary of Fangraphs). Lohse does well when he limits walks, in spite of his low K rates, he allowed 2 BB/9 last year, the ground ball tenedencies also help to limit HRs.

Bursting into song.

by Aranathor on Dec 27, 2011 8:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I think this is roughly correct

but you should check with people who know what they’re talking about.

Bursting into song.

by Aranathor on Dec 27, 2011 8:21 PM EST up reply actions  

thanks, read it and will re-read later for better understanding

Question: Doesn’t this stat count more positively for higher K/9 guys and discount GB guys? What metric is used to measure the higher GB pitcher with a lower reliance on the SO?

wait, I almost had an epiphany when it occurred to me, if a guy doesn’t allow many BB and HR per nine his FIP would be better, then still wondered how that would happen with less than average SS/2B behind him if he is attempting to get high GB rate which would weaken his FIP.

a’ha if fielding stats and GB out or non-outs do not count for or against him, they don’t hurt him in this metric it’s all about does he give up HRs or BB at a high rate or not.

Am I even close?

11 in 11' √
12 in 12', WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 27, 2011 9:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Right.

Singles and doubles don’t hurt your FIP. Groundouts don’t hurt or help aside from being a missed opportunity for a K. BB’s sting. HR’s hurt like holy hell.

Makin' toast!

DING

Butterin' toast!

by dronemc on Dec 27, 2011 9:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks dronemc will ponder ... but still trying to wrap head around this

All guys are not K/9 pitchers, so if fielding stats don’t count in one of the most important pitching evaluative stats, and that’s how a guy get’s his outs, having any HRs and BBs kill him if you are not counting outs he get’s otherwise so these pitchers would logically seem to have no value as he’s obviously not a high K/9 approach with this strategy.

11 in 11' √
12 in 12', WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 27, 2011 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

"No value" is overstating things somewhat

but what you’re saying is one of the commonly leveled criticisms of FIP – that it assumes anything outside of a very narrow result set shouldn’t/can’t be measured. The Duncan philosophy is one of the things that won’t be accurately captured by FIP, for good or for ill.

What FIP is saying is that, in general, high K/9 guys will be better than those with a lesser K/9. That’s not an inherently unreasonable position to take, as a strikeout guy will give batters fewer opportunities to damage him than a non-strikeout guy will. Non-strikeout guys can still do well via FIP; it’s just more difficult for them to do so.

Makin' toast!

DING

Butterin' toast!

by dronemc on Dec 27, 2011 9:30 PM EST up reply actions  

No, all guys aren't K/9 pitchers

But if you’re not a K/9 pitcher, you had better limit home runs and walks.

Look at Pineiro’s 2009 FIP.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 27, 2011 9:53 PM EST up reply actions  

thanks a lot Dronemc and VEP

read everything you gave me and while I still have a lot to try and understand you have both fairly significantly expanded my understanding of the FIP stats and analyzing pitching. Said significantly because if you start from around 0, any real improvement is significant.

appreciate your help, and I’ll continue to work on it

11 in 11' √
12 in 12', WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 28, 2011 6:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Nooo

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 27, 2011 8:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Wooooooooo

Contract year for him. He will do well.

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Dec 27, 2011 8:22 PM EST up reply actions  

well, yeah

if we ever see another episode of that, that is of utmost importance.

Sign Yoenis Céspedes
Twitter | Google+

by purple_haze on Dec 27, 2011 8:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Blues have moved from 14th to 4th in the Western Conference

since Hitchcock took over.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 27, 2011 8:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Battle of the 'cocks's tonight

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 8:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Blues actually scoring on the power play all of the sudden.

Good to see.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 27, 2011 9:01 PM EST up reply actions  

2 last night, and two here again tonight

Were like, what, 12% now?

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 9:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that's what it was at the start of the night.

They might not be in last place anymore.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 27, 2011 9:10 PM EST up reply actions  

with a chance to move into a tie for 2nd most points in the NHL tonight.

Boston and New York Rangers are off tonight. A win puts them at 48 points..same as New York, 1 more than Boston. 2 less than Chicago.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 27, 2011 9:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Relevant hockey

nice!

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 9:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Disclaimer:

After tonight, the Blues will have played 3 more games than Boston and 2 more than NY

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 27, 2011 9:43 PM EST up reply actions  

What I have I told you guys about getting hung up on details/facts

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 9:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Hockey point system is moronic.

I can’t imagine if they did this in baseball. Could you imagine teams getting a point for making it to extra innings? What the hell, hockey??? This shit ain’t difficult!

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 27, 2011 9:45 PM EST up reply actions  

What I don't get

is why they stick with the point system now that each and every hockey game has a winner and loser. If nothing ever ends in a tie anymore, then why not just go by wins and losses?

Makin' toast!

DING

Butterin' toast!

by dronemc on Dec 27, 2011 9:48 PM EST up reply actions  

exactly...

it would render the whole point system useless and we can just go back to good ol’ fashion winning %…you know…like every other REAL sport.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 27, 2011 9:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I would love a STL winter classic.

Gimmicky, but awesome nonetheless. Put the game in Busch or Forest Park and I would clear my schedule and pay money to see that

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 9:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

They also need to do away w/ shootouts. A stupid gimmick to bring more fanfare after the lockout. It was fun for a day, now it’s old. Play until there is a winner or at least a 20-minute OT.

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 9:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I love shootouts.

And the NHL frankly needs some things to bring more fanfare.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Dec 27, 2011 9:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Viewership isn't great, but attendance is damn good throughout hockey

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 9:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I still love shootouts.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Dec 27, 2011 9:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Just like I love the DH.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Dec 27, 2011 9:57 PM EST up reply actions  

You should be slapped.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 27, 2011 10:58 PM EST up reply actions  

YO VEB LET'S GET THIS SHIT STARTED

WHAT DID YOU GET FOR CHRISTMAS

THIS IS WHAT I GOT

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Dec 27, 2011 9:32 PM EST reply actions  

You forgot to include blue label in the picture

please go fix that

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 9:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Bro I can't help what people get me

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Dec 27, 2011 9:34 PM EST up reply actions  

JW Blue

I’ve had the privilege of trying it. Don’t really know if anything is worth 200+/750ml but this might be close. Son came through Dubai and picked me up a 200ml sampler of JW black, gold, green, and blue at the duty free shop. Gold was somewhat disappointing for some reason.

by nitetrane98 on Dec 28, 2011 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

That's incredible

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Dec 27, 2011 9:34 PM EST up reply actions  

It provided a total of 50 man-hours of laughs this christmas.

Plenty of surplus value there.

Makin' toast!

DING

Butterin' toast!

by dronemc on Dec 27, 2011 9:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey I love ramune

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Dec 27, 2011 9:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Rui, you'd better fucking bring that over here

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 27, 2011 9:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Okay I'll drive three days to LA so my internet friend can drink some of my alcohol

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Dec 27, 2011 9:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for understanding

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 27, 2011 10:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I always like a little lead with my alcohol.

Sounds pretty cool though.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 28, 2011 10:42 AM EST up reply actions  

i got a crock pot

i really needed one. also got a bike for birthday/Christmas, but that was back in september.

wife got an iphone 4s and a hp touchpad. she’s fucking pissed it wasn’t an ipad and a car. (not really)

> tebow

by cschepers on Dec 27, 2011 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

i hate you

no, i love you

nope, i hate you

no, i love you

i’m so confused

Balls

by gdm426 on Dec 27, 2011 11:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Single malt scotch

My eldest son came through with a nice bottle of Auchentoshan 12 year old. Kind of an obscure little Lowland scotch. Quite nice. First time for me and it.

by nitetrane98 on Dec 28, 2011 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

That's a #1 son right there

"You've got to have an attitude if your going to go far in this game." -- Bob Gibson

by cyclone on Dec 29, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Anyone know much about Lexus GS 300/400's

Won some serious change in the last few weeks and looking to upgrade.

by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 27, 2011 9:36 PM EST reply actions  

the 300s had 6 cyl engines

that had some oiling issue
need to check it out carefully

not aware of any issues with the 8 cyl

TLR is gone, long live the king

by sportsman on Dec 27, 2011 11:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Dont piss off Jackman

I expect fireworks in the last 13 minutes

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 9:40 PM EST reply actions  

These announcers need a bib.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 27, 2011 9:51 PM EST up reply actions  

This?

Linky

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 10:00 PM EST up reply actions  

yuck.

Hate that clip.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Dec 27, 2011 10:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Not for the weak of heart

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 10:02 PM EST up reply actions  

f'n red wings

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 9:54 PM EST up reply actions  

if this were STL Gametime,

this entire thread would be nothing more than “Fuck Detroit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!” over and over and over.

(I haven’t checked, but I’m fairly confident of this)

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 27, 2011 10:02 PM EST up reply actions  

here's a good example:
Fuck Detroit, then Fuck Detroit. Also, Fuck Detroit.


Additionally, Fuck Detroit.

Did I happen to say Fuck Detroit?

In conclusion, Fuck Detroit.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 27, 2011 10:05 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

"fuck detroit"

has over 100 instances

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 27, 2011 10:32 PM EST up reply actions  

WTF!

THIS IS CRAP! Penalty my ass.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Dec 27, 2011 10:00 PM EST reply actions  

Argh!

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Dec 27, 2011 10:06 PM EST reply actions  

meh

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 27, 2011 10:06 PM EST reply actions  

boooooooo!

Jimmy Howard had a hell of a game.

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 27, 2011 10:07 PM EST reply actions  

Needed more Taguchi

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 10:23 PM EST up reply actions  

He is called Tags.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Dec 27, 2011 10:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I have tickets for the Red Wings game in Jan.

Should be fun.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 27, 2011 10:07 PM EST reply actions  

Gah, no nevermind.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 27, 2011 10:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I've got three games in January that I'm gonna be at.

Avalanche, Wild & Sabres

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Dec 27, 2011 10:11 PM EST up reply actions  

woah, sabres?

Seems like we haven’t played them in years

Trade Westbrook

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 27, 2011 10:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Did someone say Sabres?

Sabre-tooth

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 10:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm just gonna go ahead and apologize now

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 10:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm going to the Penguins game in Jan.

I was momentarily dazed. I was at the Red Wings game a few weeks ago.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 27, 2011 10:19 PM EST up reply actions  

WOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Go Avs, they were actually in 1st for a little bit earlier on, surprisingly.

Manchester City: 44 points, 14-1-2, 1st in EPL, +38 GD
Sergio Aguero: 11 G, 4 A
Edin Dzeko: 10 G, 3 A

by cardinalswsbound on Dec 27, 2011 11:38 PM EST up reply actions  

YES I AM ALSO DISPLEASED AT THE HAPPENINGS OF THE SPORTING EVENT WE ARE ALL OBVIOUSLY WATCHING

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Dec 27, 2011 10:09 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

Thats ok - we also have Mizzou and SLU in bball. Mizzou FB won last night

Not to mention we are defending WS champs!

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 10:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Even though Truman did his best to jinx that

"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5

by Action Jaxon on Dec 27, 2011 10:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Do we have a derogative name for hockey?

handegg, kickyfoots and . . .

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Dec 27, 2011 10:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Puckynets?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Dec 27, 2011 10:13 PM EST up reply actions  

figure skating

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Dec 27, 2011 10:16 PM EST up reply actions  

GAH

GOALIES DO NOT INTENTIONALLY MAKE HELMET SAVES!

morons . . .

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Dec 27, 2011 10:14 PM EST reply actions  

Timely saves?

I don’t know much about advanced hockey stats but I’m certain these announcers are trolling everyone who understands them right now.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Dec 27, 2011 10:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Must change channel.

Urge to kill rising.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Dec 27, 2011 10:16 PM EST up reply actions  

You need a hobby.

Like knitting.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Dec 28, 2011 8:44 AM EST up reply actions  

I completely forgot about the douche who threw a ball at Holliday in game 3

until rewatching the game

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Dec 27, 2011 10:20 PM EST reply actions  

Just finished watching Game 6

Gerald Laird should be hired by the fucking Bolshoi Ballet.

"I don’t like the feeling of losing."---Chris Carpenter

by cardsfan59 on Dec 27, 2011 10:41 PM EST reply actions  

ridgesee, this is awesome.

also, girlfriend got me Whisky Stones along with some other distilled spirit related items for Hanukkah- i was extremely amused by this due to the VEB-gasm over them when woot had them, tried to explain, then gave up and just laughed. but seriously, awesome.

RJ Swindle for LOOGY
I have a man-crush on Peter Bourjos

by tehzachatak on Dec 27, 2011 10:46 PM EST reply actions  

haha, don't tell rui.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Dec 27, 2011 11:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I'M RIGHT HERE YOU GUYS

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Dec 27, 2011 11:35 PM EST up reply actions  

very well done

thanks ridgesee. I read the Gibson biography and it detailed those series. it was easily one of my favorite books as a kid, along with books about sharks, outer space, and where the wild things are. Gibson is imo the greatest pitcher ever.

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 27, 2011 10:49 PM EST reply actions  

Paging clank:

openSuse upgrade update:

Upgraded my main laptop today. This has a lot more weird stuff installed and config going on.

The main issues I had was the version of GnuCash that ships with 12.1 looks to be DOA. I was able to grab a working version from one of the individual build service repositories.

Also, this version of KDE has this indexing / metadata service deal that wants very badly to startup and eat memory and CPU. This is an old laptop and I don’t have much of either to spare. I just nuked all of Nepomuk and Akonadi (and mysql, which is where it stores its data) off the laptop. The touchpad config util needs them as a prereq, so I just sacrificed it. There is some info out there on just disabling the worst parts of this mess, and on a bigger / stronger box it wouldn’t matter as much. YMMV.

Sun Java no longer ships with openSuse (or most any other distro, due to licensing issues). I switched over to OpenJDK, but haven’t really tried it. Some of the old Java-based network utils I run into will probably break. If so, I’ll just grab Java straight from Sun again.

Needed to mess with VMWare Workstation a bit. There’s a patch out there for the VMWare kernel modules to compile against kernel 3.1, so it’s no biggie.

After cleaning up the Nepomuk stuff, the system seems as fast as ever. Everything else I’ve tried seems OK. Pretty sure it boots quicker now. All of the config utils pretty much look like they always have. There’s nothing much different on the surface.

I’ll actually use it for real tomorrow at work. If anything weird happens, I’ll let you know.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 27, 2011 11:35 PM EST reply actions  

Not as far as I can tell.

It’s supposed to run in the background and index metadata from the file system and somehow also has hooks into the KDE PIM subsystem. I really don’t care about either of those things.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 27, 2011 11:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh great, thanks!

I didn’t end up upgrading the other day, and I’m no longer in Austin, so it’ll still be a few days before I try it out.
Very much appreciated.

Still not a werewolf.

by clank on Dec 28, 2011 10:39 AM EST up reply actions  

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

We’re in Olney’s top 10 MLB bullpens!!!! But I’m still outraged that Westy and Lohse alone didn’t put us into the top rotations.
Bullpens: 1) Braves 2) Yankees 3) Giants 4) Indians 5) D-Backs 6) Brewers 7) Cardinals 8) Nats 9) Marlins 10a) Rangers 10b) Phillies 10c) Reds

Rotations: 1)Phillies (duh) 2) Rays 3) Angels 4) Giants 5) D-Backs 6) Rangers 7) Tigers 8) Nats 9) Mariners 10a) Braves 10b) Dodgers

Manchester City: 44 points, 14-1-2, 1st in EPL, +38 GD
Sergio Aguero: 11 G, 4 A
Edin Dzeko: 10 G, 3 A

by cardinalswsbound on Dec 27, 2011 11:46 PM EST reply actions  

On our bullpen he says:
At the end of the regular season, the Cardinals ranked 17th in bullpen ERA. But this was a group that evolved during the course of the season, as young relievers settled in, and by the time the Cardinals got to the World Series, it was a very different bullpen than it was in the frustrating days of early September. Jason Motte was never formally named the closer under Tony La Russa; maybe he’ll get that title from Mike Matheny. Marc Rzepczynski is viewed as an untapped gem, and maybe with a full season working under pitching coach Dave Duncan, he’ll become a dominant setup man.

Manchester City: 44 points, 14-1-2, 1st in EPL, +38 GD
Sergio Aguero: 11 G, 4 A
Edin Dzeko: 10 G, 3 A

by cardinalswsbound on Dec 27, 2011 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Game 6 Bottom of 9th Down by 2 runs

I don’t see how we’re going to win this one.

Boog would have made that play.

by thepainguy on Dec 27, 2011 11:55 PM EST reply actions  

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 28, 2011 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

So we tie it up in the 9th and then Hamilton hits a 2 run HR in the 10th?

What are we supposed to do?

P.S. I forgot how ridiculous this game was.

Boog would have made that play.

by thepainguy on Dec 28, 2011 12:14 AM EST up reply actions  

we watched it Christmas afternoon

it is hard to believe we managed to pull that one out. 99 and 44/100 of the time, that’s a Rangers win.

by ArkansasTravs on Dec 28, 2011 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Has there ever been a VEB post

About sabremetrics? Like dumbing them down? If so, could someone link it?

by Cheeseballs on Dec 27, 2011 11:58 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

If you have any specific questions I can try to answer them.

There have been several posts on individual topics but I don’t know of one about all in general.

"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie

by hazel on Dec 28, 2011 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Here are some pretty good primers

Link

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Dec 28, 2011 12:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for the link

It helps. I was looking for a VEB post because it might help me out a little more with familiar names as examples and our ballpark in context. Again, I appreciate your time.

by Cheeseballs on Dec 28, 2011 12:21 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Thanks rui, bookmarked this should help me

11 in 11' √
12 in 12', WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!.

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 28, 2011 7:20 AM EST up reply actions  

VEP did a pretty good post about WAR about two years ago.

related: VEP did a post

If I was going on a picnic, I'd invite Ryan Theriot, and I would ask him to bring the lunchables.

by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 28, 2011 12:17 AM EST up reply actions  

2 WAR posts actually

and a pitch f/x primer, a pitching stats primer, and a stats and scouting post.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2011 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I think VEB is totally due for one of those

someone needs to step up to the plate and right the damn thing, and even I am a bit foggy on some of it. like, I still think it’s a bit extreme to say clutch does not exist.

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2011 12:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Clutch exists as a function of player talent.

"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie

by hazel on Dec 28, 2011 12:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Right on

I always get excited when I see Molinas BA w RISP.

by Cheeseballs on Dec 28, 2011 12:46 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

What is clutch?

Performing better when the game is on the line than in normal game situations?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Dec 28, 2011 12:47 AM EST up reply actions  

yep

which can vastly be related to a player is in a hot streak, I’d imagine

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2011 1:11 AM EST up reply actions  

hot streaks and clutch?

you’re hittin’ em all tonight

Sign Yoenis Céspedes
Twitter | Google+

by purple_haze on Dec 28, 2011 1:13 AM EST up reply actions  

like I said

VEB is due for a sabermetrics primer. someone write one plz.

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2011 2:14 AM EST up reply actions  

The list of players who hit better in "clutch situations" compared to their career averages to a statistically significant degree

Is incredibly small

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Dec 28, 2011 1:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Also, the correlation between past "clutch" performances and future "clutch" performances is like .01

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Dec 28, 2011 1:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Psychologically, people perform better in stressful situations

Baseball players are people. Why would it be different? I’m not being sarcastic, just seriously asking a question

by Cheeseballs on Dec 28, 2011 1:32 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I'm not a psychologist, I'm a data analyst

I don’t know why they wouldn’t perform better/worse in clutch situations, but there’s a lot of data out there that shows the clutch hitting, if it exists, is essentially negligible.

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Dec 28, 2011 1:35 AM EST up reply actions  

of course it exists

it’s just that everyone who isn’t clutch gets weeded out, in AA. Or at least, that’s how I rationalize it.

"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?

by SleepyCA on Dec 28, 2011 1:07 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't think players can actually improve their talent in clutch situations

But I do think that they can get worse. So I guess the clutch guys are guys who don’t get worse.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

baseball game for ps3

which one do I buy when the new ones come out?

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2011 12:32 AM EST reply actions  

I still play

The Bigs 2. Yeah, not a real baseball experience, but fun as any baseball game I’ve played. I could never hit in any of “The Show” games.

by Cheeseballs on Dec 28, 2011 12:59 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I've tried The Show and I agree

it’s not fun, too difficult

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2011 1:12 AM EST up reply actions  

I think I'll try 2K11

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2011 1:25 AM EST up reply actions  

The Show is far better

Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6

by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Dec 28, 2011 1:37 AM EST up reply actions  

If it's on Rookie you shouldn't have too many problems....

Manchester City: 44 points, 14-1-2, 1st in EPL, +38 GD
Sergio Aguero: 11 G, 4 A
Edin Dzeko: 10 G, 3 A

by cardinalswsbound on Dec 28, 2011 1:36 AM EST up reply actions  

nope

I tried it on all modes and I didn’t like it. same with everyone else who played it… my brother considered it a sunk cost

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2011 2:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Im with you

I can’t get the hitting down the franchise is stellar though.

Piss off Tony, get shipped to Canada.

by beer me on Dec 28, 2011 10:07 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

welp

If I suck at it and can’t play it, why would I buy it?

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2011 2:13 AM EST up reply actions  

You just have to keep playing it.

Believe me, I felt the same way. I barely have time for video games anymore, and all I own are the baseball games I buy each year. I always played 2k but one year the Gamestop was out and the guy working there told me the Show was better so I bought it and for the first couple weeks I fucking hated it bc the hitting was so damn hard. Eventually I.caught on to the batting part and now I love it. It is 20Xs better than 2K. Just try putting it on rookie and the sliders all the way up.

by mick311 on Dec 28, 2011 2:24 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Watching the Bonus DVD in the WS set...

kinda disappointed there were no player/coach interviews after all the highlights. That was one of my favorite parts from the ‘06 DVD set. It’s where I first heard Waino talk about the Beltran AB and the “sickest curveball ever.” But the extra audio tracks of Shannon and Rooney are sweeeeeeet…

Sign somebody.

by EinFesteBusch on Dec 28, 2011 1:50 AM EST reply actions  

Practically the best part of the '06 set bonus disk...

Is TLR realizing on camera:

Holy [beep]… [Waino] got both Beltran and Inge on three straight pitches!

Just think about that in terms of 2011 Gm 6. Waino came up in two clinch situations, each time ahead by two runs, each time with the tying run in scoring position, both times against a hot hitter who had had success against him before (both times got to strike 2)…

…and struck the guy out on three pitches.

Cards fan in Middle East

by Shloz on Dec 28, 2011 4:32 AM EST up reply actions  

couldn't help myself
They scored 3 runs before even making an out and still had the bases loaded when Johnny Keane strolled out slowly to the mound and after a long conference signaled to the bullpen for Roger Craig.

RELEASE THE CRAIGEN!!

by BVHeck on Dec 28, 2011 6:16 AM EST reply actions  

Hummm, baby.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Dec 28, 2011 8:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Fantastic post!!!!

I was old enough to remember 64 (13) and I certainly was a fan, but over the years I guess the drugs and alcohol have taken their toll. Child of the 60’s and all. I remember Bob Gibson being my hero. I remember people talking about how scary he could be. I also remember being disappointed that Musial wasn’t around. I am amazed at your description. I will go listen to the radio. Thank you so much. And thanks clank for the video.

"Carpe diem! Rejoice while you are alive; enjoy the day; live life to the fullest; make the most of what you have. It is later than you think." ~ Horace

by spfldbird on Dec 28, 2011 9:05 AM EST reply actions  

I was negative 24.

Piss off Tony, get shipped to Canada.

by beer me on Dec 28, 2011 10:03 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

agreed, wonderful post

I, alas, didn’t pay any attention to the ‘64 Series. Two reasons, I was only 5 and my folks weren’t big baseball fans. I became a baseball fan a couple years later when I started playing Pee Wee ball. Funny thing was, with no parental influence, I rooted for the Tigers for some reason in the ’67 series but, due to influence from a friend, rooted for the Cards in ’68 and have been a Cards fan ever since.

So, I’ve only known of ‘64 through the lens of Cards history. I’m sure I’ll enjoy listening to the broadcast. Gibby was one of my favorite players (along with Brock, Shannon, Javier) from the ’60’s and early ’70’s teams. I still remember sitting in my parents’ car outside a church supper listening to Gibson getting K #3000. Fond memories.

by ArkansasTravs on Dec 28, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Question (which I will probably repeat in today's thread once it is up)

Does anyone have interest in a series of fanposts of the greatest cardinals all-time at each position?

I did these for another site I am working on and would be willing to share them if there is interest.

by stlfan on Dec 28, 2011 9:59 AM EST reply actions  

Morning Thread

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 28, 2011 10:06 AM EST reply actions  

Heya VEB-

White Sox fan here who married into a Cards family about six months ago. New Father inlaw was at game 7, and I got to hear all about it over the break. This was a great thread, and will gimme some more to talk about with him next go round.

Thank You!

by South Side Expat on Jan 7, 2012 9:59 PM EST reply actions  

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