ATTN: Skip Schumaker haters

by musial6 on Dec 23, 2011 6:42 PM EST

Give it a rest.

I know, I know - he's barely played above replacement level the last 2 years, is unlikely to get any better, and is surely going to take PAs that could have gone to younger players with more upside.

None of those players, however, bested Roy Halladay in an epic 10-pitch AB that produced the only run of the Cardinals 1-0 Game 5 win over the Phillies.

Obviously, one plate appearance does not a contract extension warrant...so let's cast the subjective anecdotal crap aside and look at the data...

According to FanGraphs - Schumaker actually earned his salary last season - here are his 4 seasons as a regular

2008: 2.6 WAR, worth $11.5M, paid 396k = $11.1M surplus value
2009: 1.8 WAR, worth $8M, 430k salary = $7.57M surplus value
2010: -0.2 WAR, worth $-1M, $2M salary = $3M deficit
2011: 0.6 WAR, worth $2.9M worth, $2.7M salary = $.2M surplus value

Clearly he's trending in the wrong direction and - given his age - is not a good bet to revert to peak form, but he's a decent bet to live up to this modest 1.5M salary in 2012 and 2013

Ah...but the opportunity cost of giving him the roster spot in the first place...

First, let's assume that Mike Matheny is a rational man who will give Descalso and Greene opportunities to win the 2nd base job. Schumaker represents the fallback if neither of those guys demonstrate they can hit well enough to play everyday. If it wasn't Schumaker, it would have been some other veteran infielder.

Also, he can play CF. We know he can play CF because he did it as recently as game 7 of the World Series. We THINK Beltran can still play CF, but the reality is that Allen Craig spent more time in CF than Beltran in 2011. Craig and Beltran each have knee issues and may break down - possibly at the same time. Skip Schumaker provides cover at CF. Again, if it wasn't Schumaker it would be someone else in the Darren Bragg mold.

Also, he can pinch hit. In the last 2 years, he's put up .375/.444/.417 in 27 pinch hitting opportunities. Other than switch hitting Berkman and Beltran on their off days, he's the best left-handed pinch hitting option on our bench.

So while everyone laments that he'll be irrationally be given too many PAs because that's how TLR rolled, the reality is that he's potentially filling 3 bench roles that aren't normally filled by a single player. He's a team player (fault the Cardinals for the 2nd base experiment all you want, but you cannot deny Skip has been a good soldier), and does not deserve the hate he receives.

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Comments

I just don't like Schumaker as a person.

He’s an alright ball player. But as a person I want to see him fail more times than not

Beltran please

by Kyle1016 on Dec 23, 2011 7:30 PM EST reply actions 1 recs

Not only do I not understand this post,

I don’t really want to.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 23, 2011 9:53 PM EST up reply actions

LOL

by hotwater2 on Dec 23, 2011 10:54 PM EST up reply actions

It doesn't help that his name is Skip.

I too harbored irrational animosity towards the guy back when he was a crappy AAAA stopgap, and again when he was an excuse for a second baseman.

but now he’s played a significant role on a championship team…he appeared in 6 WS games…bulk of the series…not exactly a lightweight

by musial6 on Dec 24, 2011 12:38 AM EST up reply actions

Theriot played a significant role. Do you want him back?

Winter Meet-up Details

by a fink on Dec 24, 2011 9:44 AM EST up reply actions

no

but should he ever end up back on the team I would cease referring to him as Therioble

by musial6 on Dec 24, 2011 11:32 AM EST up reply actions

don't answer it's a trap!

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 24, 2011 8:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

what did Skip Schumaker the person ever do to you?

sleep with your wife, steal your lunch, took your promotion…
the guy is as low key as it gets

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78

by d-dee on Dec 24, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions

He probably is confusing Skip for Jim Rapaport, that real estate rapscallion.

Still not a werewolf.

by clank on Dec 24, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs

Might want to turn your sarcasm detector on.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 24, 2011 2:08 PM EST up reply actions

Heh

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 24, 2011 10:49 PM EST via Android app up reply actions

People are hating on Skip for one reason

He’s “taking up a roster spot”. Everyone agrees his cost is negligible. He can meet the Target WAR. People just want someone from AAA to fill that slot. My answer to them is CHiLL OUT. Mo and Dewitt have demonstrated the ability to look at the business side of things (see Albert). If we must have a spot, I believe they could either trade Skip or just cut bait.

Bottom line, people should relax. Schumaker is worth the cost because he is almost free, and he does bring some intangibles.

by JWO on Dec 23, 2011 9:49 PM EST reply actions

haters gotta hate

Now that TLR is gone and the Rasmus trade ended up working, they are scraping the bottom of the barrel for stuff to hate, so a high floor, low ceiling guy like Schumaker is their target.

by musial6 on Dec 24, 2011 12:26 AM EST up reply actions

i am all in favor of people questioning the conventional wisdom.

but i will say that you can make the case for your position without ascribing bad motives to people who disagree with you, like that they are looking for things to dislike.

it’s difficult enough to be a minority voice without setting yourself up for a negative response by making the post about skip schumaker’s critics, rather than skip schumaker.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Dec 24, 2011 12:51 AM EST up reply actions

Fair point.

although I am fascinated by the way fans – even after the front office has pushed so many right buttons (including the Rasmus trade that so many viciously hated) – get bent out of shape that we’re ‘wasting’ a roster spot on a utility player who just helped deliver a World Series because there’s no chance he’ll blossom into a 3+ WAR stud – as if our system is overflowing with major league ready high ceiling 2B and CF prospects

and I’m not questioning their motives so much as I’m observing their inherent subconscious desire to believe that they know more than the people in charge*.

*historically there have certainly been poorly run organizations run that would have been better off simply plucking a random SABR-minded arm-chair GM off the Internet and promoting him to the real position, but the Cardinals circa 2011 do not fall into that category.

by musial6 on Dec 24, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions

If all we're going to do is assume that the Cards FO and coaching staff...

Will make the “right” decision or better decisions than we could ever hope to make, what’s the point of having a site like VEB?

Also, there are GMs out there who will actually trade for Vernon Wells and his contract. I don’t think you should automatically assume that these people are very good at their jobs or always know what they’re doing.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 24, 2011 2:22 PM EST up reply actions

Did you read the footnote?

cause I addressed the part about the poorly run organizations in there…

Everyone has a right to dislike any transaction. Clearly VEB exists for such discussions and opinions. But VEB is also more than just bitching about dumb transactions…

by musial6 on Dec 24, 2011 2:55 PM EST up reply actions

I read the footnote. It doesn't make sense to me.

I applaud the FO for decisions that I think are good and criticize them for decisions that I think are poor.

Also, if your impression is that VEb = bitching about dumb transactions, then that’s in your mind, it’s not reality. Indeed, the FO has been applauded by the majority of this community for the Furcal and Beltran signings, and the FO took little criticism for not signing Albert Pujols.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 24, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions

Alright, now this is a ridiculous argument

Schumaker projects to be worth less than .5 WAR next year, “capable” of playing second base or the outfield. At second he has two guys in front of him, and in the outfield, now with the Beltran signing, he has two guys in front of him, so his spot is at equal depth at either position.

Lets say, because Skip is slightly above replacement level, he’s the best option among all of the minor league guys currently major league ready. Nick Punto is still clearly a better player than Skip and he signed to the same deal. The front office didn’t know at the time that they were going to sign Beltran, but they new they were going to sign an outfielder – either Beltran, Ross or Crsip.

Skip’s extension instead of Punto’s is either a reflection of incredibly poor foresight, or a massive valuation of Skips addition to team chemistry. Putting that much weight on chemistry is highly speculative, and I’m not going to give Mo the benefit of the doubt. He’s not as bad as Dayton Moore or Arte Moreno, but he’s obviously a very flawed GM.

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 24, 2011 8:22 PM EST up reply actions

Who isn't relaxed? I can be perfectly relaxed and still think Skip blows.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 24, 2011 2:02 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs

ATTN: musial6

I disagree.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 23, 2011 9:55 PM EST reply actions

This

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 24, 2011 10:50 PM EST via Android app up reply actions

Why do people have to hate on people who have the valid opinion

That skip schumaker should not be on the team?

I wanted to play baseball!
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 24, 2011 10:51 PM EST via Android app up reply actions

welcome, everyone, to the 2011 skip schumaker-haters ball!

full of Skip, skanks, and scallywags!

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Dec 23, 2011 10:33 PM EST reply actions

Who you callin' Skip?

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 23, 2011 11:53 PM EST up reply actions

ATTN: musial6

I totally agree with you. He’s an excellent player to have coming off the bench and a terrific insurance policy.

by Wileyvet on Dec 24, 2011 12:38 AM EST reply actions

According to FanGraphs – Schumaker actually earned his salary last season – here are his 4 seasons as a regular

2008: 2.6 WAR, worth $11.5M, paid 396k = $11.1M surplus value
2009: 1.8 WAR, worth $8M, 430k salary = $7.57M surplus value
2010: -0.2 WAR, worth $-1M, $2M salary = $3M deficit
2011: 0.6 WAR, worth $2.9M worth, $2.7M salary = $.2M surplus value

Only problem with that is you can presumably get a player to put up 0.6 WAR for the league minimum, thus providing more surplus value than Skip. Furthermore, it’s almost guaranteed the player that can do that will have more upside than Skip as well.

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by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 24, 2011 1:35 AM EST reply actions

Only problem is that you won't find a single league minimum prospect who plays 2B and CF

Like I said before, Skip fills 3 important bench roles. Take him out of the equation and you need at least 2 league minimum players to fill those roles. So he’s not really costing a roster spot*, and the money difference is essentially 600K – his experience and work ethic are worth 600k – just think of him as part of the coaching staff.

*unless we have ML ready prospects at BOTH 2B and CF – which we don’t

and the line about more upside is beside the point – even with Skip, there will be plenty of room on the roster for cheap high ceiling players. Greene and Descalso should make the team out of camp. Matheny wouldn’t have been given the job unless he was committed to developing these internal players. Skip is there in case those players fail to live up to their upside potential. It’s called hedging.

by musial6 on Dec 24, 2011 1:49 PM EST up reply actions

Skip is worse than Greene or Descalso right now, whether they fail to live up to their upside or not.

He’s not hedging or insurance for them.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 24, 2011 2:37 PM EST up reply actions

Only problem is that you won’t find a single league minimum prospect who plays 2B and CF

Neither does Skip.

And guys on the coaching staff don’t take up a roster spot.

#HappySeason #SadOffSeason #ImFeelingBetterThough

by The Continental on Dec 24, 2011 6:54 PM EST up reply actions

Skip Schumaker should never play 2B or CF, though, because his defense is so incredibly atrocious at those two positions.

He also does not hit well enough to merit playing LF or RF.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 25, 2011 4:32 PM EST up reply actions

Skip can't really play 2B or CF. He can stand there though if that's what you mean.

I AM ACTUALLY STLCARDSFAN4 JUST TO CLARIFY YOUR POSSIBLE CONFUSION.

by C@rdball on Dec 27, 2011 11:34 AM EST up reply actions

Skip sucks and I'm not going to stop saying it.

Sticking with proven crappy players is a recipe that leaves players with potential in the minors. Once upon a time this team played Pedro Feliz instead of bringing up Allen Craig because Craig was “unproven” but there is one incredibly important thing that these minor leaguers are unproven at: Sucking as bad as Skip Schumaker.

"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie

by hazel on Dec 24, 2011 2:04 AM EST reply actions

nonsense

Pedro Feliz made his Cardinals debut on August 20th, 2010. He played 3B exclusively. Allen Craig has played a total of 4 games at 3B in the majors. He’s not a 3rd basemen (anymore).

More to the point, Allen Craig was already on the Cardinals roster when Feliz was acquired. He was sent down at the end of August, at which point Craig was hitting .188/.258/.313 in 89 PA with the big league club. He played 3 more weeks in AAA in September (he wasn’t ‘blocked’ at all since there were expanded rosters), before returning to the big league club to finish the season.

Finally, Skip Schumaker at his worst (-0.3 WAR in 2005 and 2006, -0.2 WAR in 2010) is borderline replacement level. He has never sucked as bad as Pedro Feliz sucked in 2010 (-1.9 WAR).

by musial6 on Dec 24, 2011 2:18 PM EST up reply actions

Just because he hasn't been as bad as Feliz yet doesn't mean he won't be next year.

Everything is trending in the wrong direction.

"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie

by hazel on Dec 27, 2011 7:57 PM EST up reply actions

This sounds about right

He’s not that good, but he’s one of ourn and unless he’s a clear liability, I’m glad we’re keeping him.

by Plowboy on Dec 24, 2011 12:29 PM EST reply actions

Skip Schumaker is a clear liability, though.

His bat only plays at second base or center field. The problem is that he is the worst defensive second baseman in all of baseball and would likely establish himself as one of the worst center fielders in all of baseball if given the opportunity. (I pray Matheny never plays him at either position because he has such terrible range in center and at second.)

The bat that plays at second base does not play in the corner outfield spots at all—which are the only positions he has managed to be about average in the field.

Basically, Schumaker is bad enough at fielding and hitting that he should not play at any of his ostensible positions.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 25, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions

points

I think if Mo had anticipated that criticism for losing out on Pujols would NOT come, he may not have re-signed Skip. In other words, Skip is a (albeit small) hedge against the marginal fan feeling (sans Albert) ‘I don’t like this team anymore; I don’t recognize this team anymore.’
Schu ensures the ever-important 18-30 female demographic.
The real problem, I think, is the signing (committment?) was for TWO years, instead of just one, or even the route of a ‘ST invitee.’

by the Tewk on Dec 26, 2011 12:58 AM EST reply actions

No hate for Skip

I’m fine with him as a bench player. I was never a big fan of him as the everyday second baseman though. Not good enough defensively, and pretty much a singles hitter. Skip doesn’t have a big ego, so I think he’ll be good as a extra outfielder, pinch hitter, and occasional second baseman.

by Hammer_83 on Dec 30, 2011 2:20 PM EST reply actions