Business As Usual: Around the Margins
by azruavatar on Dec 18, 2011 10:00 AM EST
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PrintTony LaRussa has retired. Mike Matheny is now manager of the Cardinals and while Mike Matheny certainly has his own opinions, it was clear at the time of his hiring that his relationship with general manager John Mozeliak was different than the former manager's. John Mozeliak is in charge now. So why is everything business as usual?
The Cardinals sign J.C. Romero to a 1-year $750k deal
With Marc Rzepczynski under team control, the Cardinals had at least one left handed reliever under contract for the 2012 season. It's common place for teams to have two lefties in the pen. At this point, it's almost heresy to have fewer but J.C. Romero is a lefty in name only. The fallacy of this signing isn't Romero but the agreement to tender Kyle McClellan a contract as well. Over the last three years, Romero has held left-handers to a .658 OPS. That is a respectable number but it is also 50 pts higher than McClellan's .607 OPS against versus left handers.
The point of a lefty in the pen is often to neutralize same handed hitters. Rzepczyinski is capable of that (.573 OPS over last three years against lefties) but the inability to identify that Kyle McClellan's only real role on the club is to retire left handers is a failure. The Romero signing is problematic not because Romero is terrible -- though he's certainly not good -- rather because he and McClellan combined prevent the Cardinals from carrying a better pitcher.
Jason Motte, Fernando Salas, Eduardo Sanchez, Mitchell Boggs and Lance Lynn all project as better pitchers than Kyle McClellan. Interestingly they are all cheaper players as well. Beyond those five right-handers that already have major league experience, ZiPS will tell you that Chuckie Fick is better as well while Jordan Swagerty is comparable. Even if you're disinclined to trust the ball to a rookie in the pen (if we learned anything last year, you shouldn't be), it is clear that the Cardinals will not enter the season with the best seven relievers in the bullpen.
(I'm disinclined to listen to arguments of depth about Lynn with players like Shelby Miller, Maikel Cleto and Brandon Dickson all so close to the majors as well. The risk associated with losing McClellan or having to utilize him as a starter is mitigated by those players. The Cardinals should ere on the side of their best seven relievers to start the season in this case. Should a need arise, someone in the minors will have made a convincing case that they can step in at that time.)
The Cardinals sign Skip Schumaker to a 2 year, $3M contract
Let's revisit ZiPS as tom touched on this yesterday. Skip Schumaker is rated as a poor fielder at second and centerfield and an average fielder in the corner outfield positions. He projects for an 86 OPS+, which is only nominally better than Eric Komatsu and Adron Chambers. When both players have better defensive ratings at centerfield (an obvious depth need for the Cardinals right now), it becomes apparent that Skip Schumaker is a redundant player.
Redundant players are not inherently bad but the Cardinals have committed $1M in 2011 and 2012 more than they needed to in order to obtain the skillset that Schumaker provides. Even assuming that Schumaker also can play second base, the Cardinals should be disinclined to give him at bats there over either Daniel Descalso or Tyler Greene who are better and roughly equivalent offensive players respectively.
There is no obvious need for a player like Skip Schumaker on the 2011 Cardinals. He is a left handed bat on a team flush with left handed hitters. He is a poor defender at second on a team with good defensive infielders on the bench. He is a poor defender in the outfield on a team with good defensive prospects ready for the majors. Skip Schumaker is being paid an extra million dollars a year (admittedly not a major dollar amount) to be a really great cheerleader for the club. This is an argument of opportunity cost and it's one that seems to be missed annually.
Questions the media (and fans) should ask
As the Cardinals enter a new phase of their franchise with new leaders, everyone should have real concerns and questions about the utility of these moves. These are the moves around the margin -- the Miguel Batistas, the Aaron Miles -- that have plagued the Cardinals for years. They were often driven by Tony LaRussa and it was supposed that John Mozeliak was, in some ways, an unwilling accomplice to these kinds of signings.
Now, he looks feckless as well. Certainly a decision on his competency as a GM should not be built on these signings (read that line again vivaelpujols) but these decisions should be questioned. What utility does Skip Schumaker serve? What is Kyle McClellan's projected role with the addition of JC Romero? What makes the Cardinals believe that Romero can be effective again after an abysmal 2011? (Why haven't we signed Carlos Beltran yet? Seriously, go look at ZiPS again and tell me that Carlos Beltran isn't the perfect fit for this team.)
The most important question that remains unanswered to this point is: What is John Mozeliak's vision for the St. Louis Cardinals as an organization with the departure of Tony LaRussa, Albert Pujols and Jeff Luhnow?
While we question the moves at the margins of the 2012 club, that's the question that should remain first and foremost in our minds. So far, it's business as usual.
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Looks like someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.
"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.
Did I say anything factually incorrect?
Anything of substance you’d like to disagree with?
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
Maybe he was expecting just an afterglow of "WOOOOOOOOOOS"
No matter what the FO does.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 18, 2011 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
Facts aren't at issue
but substance is. McClellan was not ineffectual as a starter last year…at least the first ten games. I think we need to watch what Mo does before condemning him for staying with McClellan.
The arm has been stretched out this year and he may be attractive to someone as a fifth starter. McClellan may sign as a reliever and end up starting for someone else. He also remains a viable candidate if we sustain an early injury.
2011 wasn’t a failure. He just ran out of gas in late May.
play a hard nine
wat
this was a great post azru. i didn’t see it as really negative, but merely questioning. i mean, we should all be wondering why schumaker is on this team. we should all be wondering why carlos beltran isn’t yet. if you got up on the wrong side of the bed, then others simply have their heads in the sand.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
I agree, azru
and I would add this question to Mo: Why do you believe that Skip/Romero/KMac are more cost effective than their Memphis counterparts—Chambers/MCarp, Fick, Ottavino/Dickson?
Well Chuckie Fick throws rightie. No clue about the other two though
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
On top of which, he's 6'5"
serious downhill throwing. Line him up next to Carp and Wainwright, with Carp in the middle…towel!
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 18, 2011 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
I think he meant Freeman.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Well Freeman's coming off injury and last pitched in AA
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Freeman' injury was two seasons ago
he pitched the entire year this year
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
Leave the gun
take the cannoli.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 18, 2011 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
I just don't think these moves are at all significant enough to gripe about
If Romero (or McClellan) suck, then they’ll get booted down or off the team, and if there is someone significantly better in AAA, they’ll take their spot. These commitments are only substantial in terms of a roster spot, so if they don’t work out, the roster will turn over and the team will swallow their paltry contracts. We saw that last year, though admittedly it took a little longer than it should have, when the bullpen got a complete makeover in the summer. Maybe your point is that it took too long, but I choose to attribute that to Tony’s hesitancy to bail on Franklin and Batista, in which case the front office’s ability to move on from ineffective players in the face of a stubborn manager is a feather in their cap, not a knock on their insight.
As for Skip, its a little more egregious, but the commitment is so minimal, it’s hard for me to get bothered by it. I’ve said it before, but I think keeping him was at least in part a PR move. With Albert gone, the organization might have credible fears from the less analytically inclined members of the fanbase, who look at Skip’s batting average, diving catches in the OF, and hear Al Hrabosky jammering about how Skip has improved at 2B etc, and see him as a familiar, steady presence on the team. If anybody asked me to make that decision, I would not have, but if a commitment as (baseball-y) insignificant as $1.5 mil a year coupled with his non-terrible performance would help keep people from bitching about what me and my coworkers were up to, I’d consider it.
As for Beltran, we haven’t signed him because he’s good and there are other teams that think so too?
"The Mollusk" makes me want to rail LSD crystals off my friends' sternum. Rage."
by ICEYhawtSTUNNAZ on Dec 18, 2011 10:29 AM EST reply actions
"If Romero (or McClellan) suck, then they'll get booted down or off the team..."
This is what we told ourselves about Batista last season during Spring Training. Look what happened with Franklin and Batista, though. The club stuck with them way, way too long and cost the team wins.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Sorry, I got SBN'd.
I meant to further expand on your point.
…Franklin appeared in 21 games last year before his release. He pitched 27.2 innings, which doesn’t seem like a lot but he was worth an astounding -1.2 Fangraphs WAR in that limited playing time. The Cardinals were very, very slow to outright him. He took up a roster spot and was horrible when La Russa used him.
Batista made 26 appearances and threw 29.1 innings. In that limited time he was worth -0.5 Fangraphs WAR. Batista makes it even clearer how horrible Franklin was.
I hope you’re right that La Russa was the one who led to the late outrightings of Franklin and Batista. But I’m not so sure he was. We’ll find out how cold and calculating Mozeliak is in this regard with Romero. Hopefully there is a short leash there. This year is going to be very interesting in that folks won’t be able to blame La Russa for Mozeliak’s decisions. We’ll never know the nature of that relationship but I think we have a tendency to mold into how we want to view Mozeliak and/or La Russa.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
In regard to Romero, why hasn't anyone discussed the pixie dust sprinkler?
Are Romero’s problems something Dunc can’t help him with?
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
The pixie dust didn't work very well with Miller, Tallet, Franklin, or Batista last season.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Just with starters or you are not a believer?
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
I think Duncan generally gets far too much credit for successes and far too little for failures.
After Piñeiro was signed in 2007, he pitched well and the Cardinals signed him to a two-year extension. Folks said that Duncan turned him around and that he would thrive in St. Louis. Piñeiro’s 2008 season was absolutely horrendous. No one said anything about Duncan. Then, in 2009, Piñeiro was awesome in a way most Duncanian, and Duncan was again praised. It was as if 2008 never happened.
That’s just one example. I think Duncan is a great pitching coach. But I also think we tend to expect too much out of him in turning around pitchers. J.C. Romero is not a good pitcher and I don’t expect Duncan to turn him into one.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Pineiro's not a really good example
After his struggles his first full Cardinals season, he went to Duncan and pretty much put himself in the coach’s hands, making drastic changes to his approach on the mound and the pitches he used, especially making the sinker his primary pitch rather than a fastball that had lost its velocity.
I think that makes him a perfectly good example.
It’s a list of examples that includes Kip Wells, Sidney Ponson, Jason Marquis, Todd Wellemeyer, and a laundry list of relievers. It’s okay that Duncan doesn’t have a perfect track record. I’m just saying that folks often expect too much out of Duncan. Thinking that he might be able to turn J.C. Romero around is likely expecting too much.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
How?
When Pineiro followed Duncan’s advice, he had his best season with the Cardinals. When he didn’t, and attempted to pitch the way he always did, he struggled.
Also, Wellemeyer is not a good example, because I doubt anybody expected him to be a useable pitcher, much less a back-of-the-rotation starter he was under Duncan.
I’m not saying that Duncan is perfect; I even said that below and brought up Kip Wells before you. I’m just pointing out that some of your Duncan failures were actually successes.
Mixed Results
I reject the notion that Piñeiro was out there doing whatever he wanted in 2008 with no input from Duncan. I find that to be very unlikely. I realize the media pushed the conversion to Duncan sinkerballism in 2009. And there is ample evidence to support a change in approach. But what the media hasn’t explained to us is why Duncan was unable to get Piñeiro to make the change in 2008. I don’t see how anyone could say that Piñeiro’s 2008 under Duncan was not as much of a failure as his 2009 was a success.
As for Wellemeyer, I think he is a great example because few expected him to be a useable pitcher. I think few expect J.C. Romero to be a useable pitcher, either. Wellemeyer was a starter and Romero is a reliever but both suffer from poor control. I think it’s unfair to expect Duncan to magically turn Romero into a useable pitcher.
I’m saying that Duncan has had decidedly mixed results with fringy pitchers. That’s perfectly understandable. But I think it’s important to keep that in mind and not expect Duncan to turn every fringy pitcher into a useful or good pitcher.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
How about this logic?
Dunc can only help or not help. He doesn’t make pitchers not succeed (except in the case of one very CF who used to pitch)
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
/loved
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
some anthony reyes fans would probably argue with you
by prophetjohn on Dec 18, 2011 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
I had forgot about him, just remember not wanting to see him come out of the pen
Was it a mechanics adjustment? Or hole arm slot change?
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
Anthony Reyes was a 4-seam/changeup pitcher
And they turned him into much more of a 2-seam/curve pitcher (oversimplification), which seemed stupid at the time and failed miserably. He wasn’t good in 2006, but his change was pretty clearly his best pitch but for some reason they had him cut back on that dramatically.
The confounding problem is that Reyes hurt himself and lost like 2 mph and could never make it back anyway.
Not afraid to nitpick
Thanks joker
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
Do you know him?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
may be an impostor come to think of it
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
There are Anthony Reyes fans?
Manchester City: 38 points, 12-0-2, 1st in EPL, +35 GD
Sergio Aguero: 11 G, 3 A
Edin Dzeko: 10 G, 3 A
by cardinalswsbound on Dec 18, 2011 1:59 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
The Anthony Reyes wars on this board
were extremely vicious
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
The survivors of the conflict almost lost hope
We’ve rebuilt so much, come so far. We can’t let VEB be torn apart like that again.
0_o ... Wow I did not know that
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
It was a brutally divisive conflict.
I thought the Chris Duncan, Outfield conflict was bad but I had no idea what the Reyes conflict would be…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
ah yes..Chris Duncan.
I’ll never forget the Justin Morneau comparisons.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
I'll admit I was wrong on that one
I always thought that once he was freed, we’d regret shipping him off.
At least there was WS Game 1.
Watching it right now
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting that Verlander, looks exactly the same as he does today.
It’s like he was born in his mid thirties (I know he’s 28)
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
I'm watching the 06 WS set for the 1st time, wife saw 06 playoffs live I didn't, (got it yesterday) and wife and I were just having the platoon ruined/gave Duncan a bad break discussion
We are both on the same side fortunately. Just finished NLCS game 5/7 and are in the 5th inning of WS game one right now
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
That is why we're forced to deal with fang
He’s an implement of the powers in charge to remind us that they control us
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
oh that's cute.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 18, 2011 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
What the heck are you talking about?
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
It's weird at the start but it picks up after that part.
Though seeing all that in theaters was awesome, the chairs were shaking.
Manchester City: 38 points, 12-0-2, 1st in EPL, +35 GD
Sergio Aguero: 11 G, 3 A
Edin Dzeko: 10 G, 3 A
by cardinalswsbound on Dec 18, 2011 2:32 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Actually yes game 1 WS hero for realz ... great performance
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
Like 5 straight innings without a baserunner?
something like that?
And starting Game 1 after being in the doghouse all year? Really pretty impressive.
Lotsa help from the DET defense too, of course.
That sums it up pretty well
What were you looking for? A rehash of some argument from times gone by that I was not a part of?
Sorry if I opened old wounds so I’ll let this lye
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
??
Nope, just wanted to remember the legacy we were left with out of all that Reyes heartburn. Nothing more.
My apologies
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 7:00 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree
You’re assuming that players have no input themselves on what they throw on the mound. You’re also assuming that pitchers and coaches never have disagreements. Both assumptions are completely false.
My point was that when Piniero completely trusted Duncan, he was able to remake himself as a pitcher. Considering that Piniero himself admitted that, I would not write up the successful change over to a sinker ball approach to media pushing it, especially when I handed you a Hardball Times analysis that shows it.
As for Wellemeyer, I think he is a great example because few expected him to be a useable pitcher. I think few expect J.C. Romero to be a useable pitcher, either. Wellemeyer was a starter and Romero is a reliever but both suffer from poor control. I think it’s unfair to expect Duncan to magically turn Romero into a useable pitcher.
You presented Wellemeyer as a failure of Duncan’s (“It’s a list of examples that includes Kip Wells, Sidney Ponson, Jason Marquis, Todd Wellemeyer, and a laundry list of relievers. It’s okay that Duncan doesn’t have a perfect track record.”), yet he is widely regarded as one of his successes, simply because he was able to have success as a starting pitcher, much less a MLB pitcher, despite his weaknesses. I’m not sure what you’re arguing here.
Also...
Romero was a usable LOOGY when used properly, which, for the most part, he wasn’t last year. The whole “Duncan’s pixie dust” argument is pretty much manufactured for Romero, considering that this discussion started when I-Musal-ly asked why it wasn’t brought up yet.
That, and the fact that there is a bullpen coach somewhere on staff…
Is there evidence
that Piñiero was constantly shaking Yadi off in 2008? I certainly don’t remember that.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Wellemeyer and Pineiro were better pitchers than Romero.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 18, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
kip wells was a head case though
amirite?
how can you blame the pitching coach for that?
by jealousblues on Dec 18, 2011 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
Was he? Not doubting, just didn't know. . . How much pixie (nuclear) dust was sprinkled on. . . .
Rick Ankiel?
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
i just remember the complete melt down after josh died
and seeing the complete deer in headlights look on his face and then him never being any good after that.
I know thats tough circumstances but the guy was the most scared ive seen anyone in a non life or death situation.
by jealousblues on Dec 18, 2011 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks, didn't know. Wonder if they were close? Did Wells have a toot with Josh on the terrible night in question?
Recall that Wells had had a good Spring Training, was OK for a couple of games and then. . . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
that was my impression as well
he started off very strong, then never recovered
by jealousblues on Dec 19, 2011 5:39 AM EST up reply actions
Pineiro in 2008 was unlucky with HR/FB rate
normalise that and he was pretty much worth what he was being paid.
Agree on the general point though – Romero is garbage now, and, at the end of 2012, we’ll still be saying exactly the same thing. He probably shouldn’t have a major league job in all honesty. At least with Skip, I can buy the explanation that he’s cheap, he’s a veteran (and it would be potentially destabilising or whatever to dump him for nothing) and he’s probably no worse than Chambers/Komatsu/Descalso/whatever. But yeah, Romero is just a shitty acquisition.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 18, 2011 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
Miller was an effective LOOGY the season before
He just fell apart last season. The real problem was that Miller was the primary LOOGY.
Duncan’s “pixie dust” works for a bit—he usually can get a good season or two out of pitchers who are struggling or declining. But in those cases, it’s got a short shelf-life, and it’s not automatic. See: Kip Miller.
Kip Miller?
Good lord. Getting my bad arms confused….
I thought you just forgot a comma and were using Wells and Trever as examples.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
the year before,
he wasn’t supposed to be the primary LOOGY with Dennys in the fold, but he ended up being the more effective one.
Because Matheny
i mean
i said at the time and still think that franklin’s outrighting didn’t take too long. he was used very little later in his stay and i’m pretty sure he deserved the chance to turn around his season
by prophetjohn on Dec 18, 2011 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
I thought it did.
When the manager is saying things like he doesn’t want Franklin to pitch at home because of fan reaction the player shouldn’t be on the roster. I was surprised they didn’t come up with an injury and send him to the minors.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
i would imagine he didn't want to go to the minors
i think a player who’s been with the team for that long deserves more than a few weeks to prove he’s not cashed before being released
by prophetjohn on Dec 18, 2011 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
That's a fair position.
I think they gave him those few weeks and then another few weeks which were a few weeks too long for my taste. But I understand your position.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
TLR was quoted in the press and IIR in post game interviews saying Franklin did not want to go to the minors
and that the team/Franklin were not going to use a “fake” injury to get him off the roster and onto the DL
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, he was.
And that surprised me.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
The other possibility is...
that Mozeliak learned a lot from the experience last year of retaining Franklin and Bautista too long. The club responded very positively to their releases, a fact that I’m sure is not lost on Mo. I think Romero will have a fairly short leash here…see Tallet/Miller last year. If Duncan can cut down on his walks he can be very good (55% GB rate!). Skip will likely spend all of next year with the club even if he has a down year…there are worse things than a 25th spot on the roster that can fill in at four positions.
"Progress always involves risk; you can't steal second base and keep your foot on first base." - Frederick Wilcox
by cardzfanbub on Dec 18, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
Pretty much agree with all of this
Worrying about the last 2-3 roster spots is not a big concern, the important thing is that mo realizes that skip is a full-time backup and that Mac only starts if we have injuries.
I’m more concerned that we sign Beltran or failing that, coco crisp. It seems to me that absent a SP injury, that a teak that adds waino and Beltran and expects bigger seasons from freeze and Craig can win 95 games
Just win
by The Duke on Dec 18, 2011 10:56 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
people always say that, and then at the end of the
Season when you total up the various contributions, we always find there’s about $10m in lost value, usually by giving a bunch of players who didn’t belong on the team in the first place playing time.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 18, 2011 3:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
^i agree
if the guys in the pen falter at least you have someone waiting in the wings and you swallow the contract.
If the AAA guys stink you have to bring someone in then. I dunno if it makes that much of a deal or not
skip I obviously was annoyed with
the onjly thing I can figure is that he means something to the team on a personal level
and considering that he isnt starting anywhere and isnt going to be paid a ton its not the worst thing in the world
i mean these guys arnt robots
by jealousblues on Dec 18, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
My concern is that Greene is "goned" so Skip can stay. Would have been a near certainty under TLR . . .
. . . less sure now.
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Are we completely discounting Skip's role as clubhouse leader?
With Pujols gone and a new guy in to manage I could see them taking this into consideration. Skip’s ability to play second and center can also help paper over the inevitable in-game mistakes Matheny is likely to make.
Also, w/r/t K-Mac, tendering him a contract and trading him is probably the right move. We just need to wait for a team to have a major injury and they will come calling.
Sign Roy O
by guayzimi on Dec 18, 2011 10:35 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
I'm confused...
Are you saying Skips illusory “versatility” will serve as a scapegoat for Matheny making managing mistakes? Because Skip sucks at those positions? If so, the mistake is putting Skip at center and second base to begin with.
so you're saying Skip should play shortstop?
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Dec 18, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
No, Furcal clearly has the clubhouse mojo to play shortstop
Happy Flight, remember? That’s what wins ball games!
Skip's clubhouse leadership is better suited to positions where he won't kill us as much on the field
Like DH during inter-league games. (I am actually terrified this will happen since Craig’s injury is a little bit of an unknown still).
I think a new manager can get into trouble...
making in game moves that will leave him exposed later on. They can be especially embarassing and can lead to a media pile on… in a similar vein I think Mo cares about helping Matheny control the clubhouse. Skip will help with both these issues. I’m just pointing out that re-signing him could be the rational move depending on how you weight the importance of these attributes.
Sign Roy O
I understand
I was being only partly serious and largely flippant. But I really was confused about what you meant. This clears it up for me.
Then why the pay cut?
If “leadership” is so important then why pay Skip less then what he made last year?
by Forsch's2nohitters on Dec 18, 2011 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
because he made too fuckin much last year.
and his performance didn’t merit a raise.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
If Skippy was making what he made last year...
all the gnashing of teeth would be justified. MLBTR had him projected to make $3.1million in arby…for 2012!!! Honestly if the biggest complaints we can come up with are less than $2 million dollars spent on replacement level players next season, we’ve got it pretty damn good!
"Progress always involves risk; you can't steal second base and keep your foot on first base." - Frederick Wilcox
by cardzfanbub on Dec 18, 2011 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
TLR once used Miles as DH.
SOON.
"Nothing Motte does is quiet. It's mostly screamy and intense." - sheckiezx
"I'm a graduate of the Mike Shannon School of Diction" - Al Hrabosky
by monkeysareblue on Dec 18, 2011 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
I was at that game.
Thanks for dredging up the memory.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I'd rather the Cards pay Skip the same contract
to hang out in the clubhouse and pal around with the boys, but stay the hell off the roster. Their clubhouse mascot doesn’t need to burn a roster spot.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
The thing is this...
…I would have rather had Nick “the Shredder” Punto on the roster as utility guy/clubhouse personality, considering that he provides excellent defense at three infield position and a decent bat. Shumaker provides adequate defense in the corners, weak defense in the center, horrible defense at second, and slap hitting.
That said, it’s a bench move, and not resigning Punto gives more opportunity to Greene and MCarp (which is important, considering he’s running out of time as a prospect because of his age). It makes the depth in the infield a bit thinner than I’d like, but it also opens the door for guys who have been stuck in the system and deserve a chance. Nothing’s perfect.
by Forsch31 on Dec 18, 2011 11:01 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, if we had signed Punto that would have obviously been better
But signing Punto instead of Skip has the same effect on opportunities for Greene and Matt Carpenter. There are only so many roster spots. So signing Skip is the worst of both worlds. How does Matt Carpenter make it onto the roster now?
I'm assuming here that Greene will be given more of an opportunity
Since that’s what the org. seems to be indicating lately.
Nobody's the back-up for Freese
Descalso, who did it last season, seems to be tagged as the primary 2nd baseman, and I would assume that the coaching staff would like to keep him at that position as much as possible, considering he didn’t have much time there last season. On the 25-man roster, there’s nobody after Descalso in case Freese needs to be rested (which he will, given his ankles). I suppose that when they use Descalso at 3rd, they can put Greene at 2nd.
If the Cardinals carry 12 pitchers, they’ll have 5 bench spots. Right now, those spots are Greene, Shumaker, and one of Anderson/Cruz as the back-up catcher. If they sign Beltran, it pushes Jay to the fourth outfielder (when Craig’s healthy) and Shumaker to fifth outfielder/occasional second baseman. That leaves one spot, and whoever fills it will need to be able to play third base. Signing Punto in addition to Shumaker would have nixed that, because Punto plays third in addition to short and second.
If they resigned Punto, he would have been the primary utility infielder, given his defense and ability to play more positions. Greene would have been secondary, filling the role for middle infield, with Descalso starting at second and Carpenter down in Memphis. Not resigning Punto and resigning a guy who primarily will play outfield opens up that opportunity for Greene and Carpenter.
tony cruz also
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
tony cruz can play all the positions except CF, SS, and P!
didn’t you see him play RF and 2B last year???
Sign Hong-Chih Kuo, Trade for Peter Bourjos
by tehzachatak on Dec 18, 2011 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
i remember when he fell down in RF
and the ball just happened to land in his glove. i had forgotten about him playing 2B
by prophetjohn on Dec 18, 2011 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
it may be pushing it,
but they’d use him there if they had to. He played 133 games there in the minors, which is 133 more than Joe Thurston played there before he started getting semi-regular starts there.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
let me rephrase
cruz is not an acceptable primary or secondary backup at 3B. he could probably wing it for an inning or two in an emergency. he is a catcher
your thurston argument doesn’t resonate with me. it validates putting any player at 3B. and 2B is much more similar to 3B than catcher is
by prophetjohn on Dec 18, 2011 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
no it just validates him as a 3rd or 4th option at 3rd base.
A third baseman turned catcher makes more sense at 3rd than a 2nd baseman who never played an inning there until the major leagues.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
i don't agree
i think the player who has proven he can play the harder (or maybe roughly equally as hard) position at the major league level is more likely to succeed than the player who proved he could not play the position by the time he made it to AA
by prophetjohn on Dec 18, 2011 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
Well considering Thurston was atrocious at 3B
I guess we’ll never know unless Cruz gets a ton of starts at 3rd for some reason.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
i remember him having trouble with throwing accuracy
but i thought his bat was the bigger problem
he had a -4.4 UZR/150, which is not exactly what i would call atrocious
either way, i don’t know how this got turned into me having to defend joe thurston to someone who thinks a catcher who failed to be a 3B in the minors is an option at 3B. especially when the point was to counter the idea that there is no one on the roster that can be freese’s backup at third. cruz is not an option as freese’s backup at third. tyler greene is an option to be freese’s backup at third
you’re right that we won’t know for sure unless cruz gets a bunch of starts at third. hopefully we don’t know for sure
by prophetjohn on Dec 18, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
this was the only point i was trying to make
no it just validates him as a 3rd or 4th option at 3rd base.
Not sure why you took that as I thought Cruz should be the primary backup 3rd baseman.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
maybe i was reading to much into this succession of comments
Nobody’s the back-up for Freese
greene can play third
tony cruz also
i think the depth chart for third currently looks like this:
freese
descalso
greene
carpenter
cox
craig
cruz
that’s a pretty rough estimation, but i don’t think i’d call him better than the 5th or 6th best option at 3B
considering 3 of those guys
might not be on the opening day roster, that’d make Cruz the 4th option.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
you mean, like, in a 20-inning game or something?
yeah, i’d agree. that’s what i mean by him being an emergency option. but 4 or 5 of those guys will have to be on the disabled list before cruz is considered an option to be a part-time starter at 3B, which is what i take it to mean when he’s called a backup for freese
I think this would be more of
an issue if TLR was still managing. Let’s hope Matheny isn’t a double switch fanatic.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
So since Skip has proven he can play the harder position at the major league level...
he should be Freese’s backup?
Amirite?
"Nothing Motte does is quiet. It's mostly screamy and intense." - sheckiezx
"I'm a graduate of the Mike Shannon School of Diction" - Al Hrabosky
by monkeysareblue on Dec 18, 2011 7:22 PM EST up reply actions
PJ, See the late and utterly unlamented Floppy at Third. . .
an X-rated horror flick. The sequel will feature Happy Pedro. . . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Greene plays third
About as well as Skip plays second.
(Okay, maybe not that bad, but still…)
In the minors, over 604 games, Greene’s played a grand total of 10 games at 3rd base (4 in Springfield in 2008 and 6 in Memphis in 2009). He’s played more games there in St. Louis, but that doesn’t convince me that he’s a real argument to man the position behind Freese. I would say there’s a good reason why Descalso, Punto, Pujols, and even Kozma saw time there last year and Greene didn’t get any.
greene is an above average SS
SS is a significantly harder position to play than 3B. the only thing that could make him ineffective is if he didn’t have the arm to play 3B, but he has a very strong arm. i would wager that he’s probably better defensively than freese. his bat is obviously inferior, though
i think his lack of playing time there last season was some combination of 1) TLR not having an faith in him and 2) him failing to translate AAA success to the MLB level. these two are obviously interconnected
Both Descalso and Greene can play third
And the last bench spot may be able to play 3b too (plus Cruz, in emergencies, if he’s the backup C). And MCarp is ready if Freese goes down with a more serious injury. Backup 3b isn’t much of an issue, IMO.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 18, 2011 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
Greene really can't
and I already explained why Descalso isn’t going to.
crap...sbn'd again
…going to be available as a primary back-up.
You don't think Descalso will slide over to third if he's needed there?
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
Greene is not physically unable to play third base.
There is a reason many shortstops move to third base late in their careers when they can no longer handle shortstop. That reason is the fact that third base is easier to play. There is no reason to think that Greene cannot be serviceable at third base since he is a slightly above average shortstop with a plus throwing arm.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Nobody's backing up Freese at third
Descalso, who did it last season, seems to be tagged as the primary 2nd baseman, and I would assume that the coaching staff would like to keep him at that position as much as possible, considering he didn’t have much time there last season. On the 25-man roster, there’s nobody after Descalso in case Freese needs to be rested (which he will, given his ankles). I suppose that when they use Descalso at 3rd, they can put Greene at 2nd.
If the Cardinals carry 12 pitchers, they’ll have 5 bench spots. Right now, those spots are Greene, Shumaker, and one of Anderson/Cruz as the back-up catcher. If they sign Beltran, it pushes Jay to the fourth outfielder (when Craig’s healthy) and Shumaker to fifth outfielder/occasional second baseman. That leaves one spot, and whoever fills it will need to be able to play third base. Signing Punto in addition to Shumaker would have nixed that, because Punto plays third in addition to short and second.
If they resigned Punto, he would have been the primary utility infielder, given his defense and ability to play more positions. Greene would have been secondary, filling the role for middle infield, with Descalso starting at second and Carpenter down in Memphis. Not resigning Punto and resigning a guy who primarily will play outfield opens up that opportunity for Greene and Carpenter.
skip has no ability to play second or center field,
In the sense that you could probably put matt carpenter and zach cox into a crash course at either position now, and both could be a -10 fielder at either spot by the start if the season. And both would hit better than skip, most likely.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 18, 2011 3:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Hey prospect guys...
is Grandal-Alonso-Boxberger much, much better than both Odorizz-Cain-Escobar-Jeffress and Archer-Lee-Guyer-Chirinos?
Like if Grandal et al is a 10, is either of the others even a 8?
Sign Roy O
And Volquez
"The Mollusk" makes me want to rail LSD crystals off my friends' sternum. Rage."
by ICEYhawtSTUNNAZ on Dec 18, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah Volquez too...
if he rebounds he could bring another top shelf prospect at the deadline. Definitely a lot more upside there than Sam Fuld.
Sign Roy O
I think volquez is a good bounce back candidate. But his problems seem to be more than talent issues; he may be a head case.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 18, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
He gave up a 20.7% HR/FB%!!!!!!!!!!!!
That might get into your head that every time you give up a FB, you give up a bomb.
Not afraid to nitpick
He's also walked about 5 or 6 guys per 9 the last couple of years
so I think there is a significant question mark over control. That said, he’s probably an average (or slightly above) pitcher in the “effectively wild” mold so I think they’re looking to spin him for another prospect or two at the deadline. Nice move by the Padres I think, even if Alonso is possibly blocked long-term.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 18, 2011 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
Money hardly even enters into the equation for me
with regard to Schumaker; my real gripe is that he is still taking up a roster spot, and therefore taking up playing time, when he a) can’t get on base and b) can’t field.
And the Romero signing is all the more frustrating given how the bullpen evolved last year. It started out as a core of good arms, both in the majors and minors, covered in a huuuuge pile of garbage. And literally all we had to do (besides, eg, trading for Dotel) to make our bullpen one of the best in the league was shovel away all the garbage until we got down to that core. And yet, here we are, in another off-season, just piling more and more garbage back on top of those guys, which we’ll just have to clear away again as the season progresses.
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
don't forget scrabble...
he was a big part of the pen down the stretch…agree with the overall premise, just don’t see it as that big of a deal. As long as Skip is the 5th OFer I’ll worry more about who is the 4th OFer.
"Progress always involves risk; you can't steal second base and keep your foot on first base." - Frederick Wilcox
by cardzfanbub on Dec 18, 2011 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
i suppose i agree about schumaker
but i’m having a real hard time getting worked up about romero. i mean if these are the two worst players/contracts on the team, i think “business as usual” is a little off target
Agreed.
These just aren’t the kinds of signings that are worth expending stomach acid over.
"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.
by StanTheManFan on Dec 18, 2011 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
You're both missing the point (and STMF seems to have an a poor notion of how worked up I actually am).
I readily concede w/r/t both players that we’re talking about the margins. The margins in terms of dollars, roster spots, roles and value.
I’m worried about the process (given the absence of certain persons) that has produced these results.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
I am too, and I think it's a legitimate concern
We shouldn’t break out the jump to conclusion mat yet, but we also shouldn’t assume that the new direction will perfectly line up with our optimistic assumptions either. That’s just jumping to a different kind of conclusion.
I am going to follow my own advice
and not expend stomach acid on this.
"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.
by StanTheManFan on Dec 18, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
I’m worried about the process (given the absence of certain persons) that has produced these results.
Exactly. Really, we haven’t made any disastrous moves in the last couple of years IMO, but at least a good few that suggest that the FO have trouble evaluating players at the major league level.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 18, 2011 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
Sad thing is...
Romero was probably one of the better LOOGYs on the market. He’s an upgrade over Rhodes, as well. shiver
Matheny most likely will handle his LOOGYs similar to LaRussa, since Dave Duncan is his pitching coach and LaRussa usually gave credit to Duncan for bullpen moves in-game. Tagging McClellan, who is someone Duncan has always liked and used in a larger bullpen role, as a right-handed LOOGY doesn’t really make much sense in that light.
In regards to Duncan and pitching decisions,
Bernie had this post a little while back that I found very interesting:
While manager Tony La Russa gave Duncan tremendous leeway during their 30-plus year working relationship, it would be a mistake to conclude that Dunc had complete autonomy. La Russa was involved in every aspect of the pitching plan, including pitch-selection strategy, scouting reports and in-game decisions in replacing pitchers. Duncan and La Russa did not always agree on everything. La Russa certainly overruled Duncan more times than we’d guess. This in no way suggests that Duncan’s influence was anything less than extraordinary; he’s the No. 1 reason why the Cardinals have ranked 3rd overall in the majors in ERA over the last 16 seasons. But we tend to assume that La Russa turned the pitching over to Duncan and walked away from that area of the team, with Duncan making 100 percent of the decisions. That’s absolutely incorrect.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
If you're suggesting that I think Duncan is 100 percent behind all bullpen moves...
…you’re 100 percent wrong. But Matheny, as a rookie manager who has zero experience in in-game tactics, will most likely use his staff for important input, the same way LaRussa did. LaRussa and Duncan worked closely together on the pitching staff, and considering that Matheny also worked closely with Duncan as a player and handled a pitching staff in the LaRussa era, I’m really not ready assume that the way the bullpen is used in general will be changed around.
I don't expect Matheny to defer to Duncan because La Russa never did. No managed does.
I just provided this quote from Bernie to illustrate that the pitching moves were not exclusively Duncan’s decisions during the La Russa era. I think Matheny has a lot of personal experience with pitchers that will help him to make bullpen decisions.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I wasn't talking about pitching moves
Sorry, my original post wasn’t clear…I was talking about overall bullpen strategy and construction. Given that much of Matheny’s personal experience with pitchers came on a LaRussa staff, I would not be surprised that his own strategy is similar.
I agree.
I think we’re likely to see a lot of similarities in bullpen construction and management when comparing TLR and Matheny.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Last sentence seems perfectly logical to me, and Matheny was a very good catcher and acknowledged leader so I think he'll definitely listen to and learn from Dunc but rely on his own intuition (please don't tell me his batting stats VEB)
Pitchers loved working with Matheny just as they now do with Yadi
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
Right.
In all honesty, I think Matheny has exceptional qualifications for managing a pitching staff.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Forget which was which. Who wanted to keep Harren and who thought he was overrated?
TLR?? Dunc??
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Dunc wanted to keep Haren and trade Reyes.
Walt did the opposite.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
I was a bit young for the earlier parts of the Jocketty years
But is he going to be considered a good GM? Everything he’s done during my fandom has been pretty bleh
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
his time has past.
He specialized in trading nothings for somethings….and then he made the Mulder deal and it was never the same.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:11 PM EST up reply actions
In a different time,
you could trade for Mark McGwire, Daryl Kile, Jim Edmonds, and Scott Rolen types without giving up much. That time has passed.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
is that why everyone wants to trade dickson and westbrook for votto, etc?
by prophetjohn on Dec 18, 2011 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
I think so.
Seriously, go look at the trades for those players. It’s incredible. None would have happened today.
Then Jocketty ran into Billy Beane and got fleeced in the Haren trade.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
He's been kind of nonexistent in Cincinnati, yeah?
Or invisible, I guess
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Except for that Latos trade you might have heard about.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Chapman signing and Latos trade are really the only things that come to mind
besides signing all the old Cardinal players.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
Surprised Chapman actually recovered from his May implosion
12 BBs vs. 4 outs recorded over 4 outings.
Not afraid to nitpick
The guy is simply unhittable...
if he can just throw it over the plate he’ll wind up in the HOF
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:37 PM EST up reply actions
Wow
He pitched 0.1 IP with 9 walks, a HBP, and zero strikeouts with eight earned runs.
That’s pretty impressively bad.
I AM ACTUALLY STLCARDSFAN4 JUST TO CLARIFY YOUR POSSIBLE CONFUSION.
Holy...
"Nothing Motte does is quiet. It's mostly screamy and intense." - sheckiezx
"I'm a graduate of the Mike Shannon School of Diction" - Al Hrabosky
by monkeysareblue on Dec 19, 2011 3:34 AM EST up reply actions
I can forgive him considering the trades I listed below.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:23 PM EST up reply actions
I mean seriously....Bottenfield and Kennedy for EDMONDS!!!
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
I still dont think he got fleeced
Mulder just got hurt
granted Haren turned out great but its not like Mulder was trash and it was a clear loss until he got hurt.
by jealousblues on Dec 19, 2011 4:24 AM EST up reply actions
I mean its probably not great to trade a cheap good pitcher for an expensive one
but its not like he traded Haren for Miles or something
by jealousblues on Dec 19, 2011 4:26 AM EST up reply actions
Some of his better deals -
Steve Montgomery for Dennis Eckersley
Blake Stein, Erik Ludwick, TJ Mathews for Mark McGwire
Jay Witasik, Allen Battle, Brett Wagner, and Carl Dale for Todd Stottlemyre
Pablo Ozuna, Braden Looper, Armando Almanza for Edgar Renteria
Bud Smith, Mike Timlin, and Placido Polanco for Scott Rolen
Kent Bottenfield and Adam Kennedy for Jim Edmonds
Jose Jiminez, Rich Croushore, Brent Butler, Manny Aybar for Daryl Kile, Dave Veres, and Luther Hackman
Juan Acevedo and Eliezar Alfonzo for Fernando Vina
Ray Lankford for Woody Williams
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
This is HOF caliber GM-ing.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
I can't think of another GM
that has made this many absurdly lopsided trades.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
a couple more...
Jose Leon for Will Clark
Chris Narveson, Jason Burch, and Luis Martinez for Larry Walker
Matt Duff for Tony Womack
Darond Stovall, Bryan Eversgerd, and Kirk Bullinger for Ken Hill – okay this one should have worked out better than it did.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
Kind of fun going through these
Steve Montgomery (Career 96-00: -1.3 fWAR) for Dennis Eckersley (Cards 96-97: 1.0 fWAR)
Blake Stein (Career 98-02: 2.1 fWAR, Erik Ludwick (Post-trade 97-99: -0.6 fWAR), TJ Mathews (Post-trade 97-02: 1.1 fWAR) for Mark McGwire (Cards 97-01: 23 fWAR)
Jay Witasik (Career 96-07: 4.6 fWAR), Allen Battle (Post-trade 96: -1.1 fWAR), Brett Wagner (?), and Carl Dale (Career 99: -0.2 fWAR) for Todd Stottlemyre (Cards 96-98: 8.2 fWAR)
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
McGwire. Rolen and Edmonds
Were all one year or less from free-agency. This is not to say they weren’t great trades and that getting them in uniform didn’t convince them to sign long-term deals and forgo free-agency (which it did). But their soon-to-be free-agency status was the reasons the deals were made from their old team’s perspectives.
Kile and Walker were salary dumps.
Regardless...its still remarkable how little he gave up
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:41 PM EST up reply actions
and of course, polanco was worth 8.4 fWAR for the Phils
for less than $8M, after the trade, in his last 2.5 years of club control. Cards got 3.3 fWAR out of Rolen that year, before re-signing him. That trade could have been a disaster if Rolen hadn’t re-signed.
"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?
Who re-signed him?
Jocketty.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:48 PM EST up reply actions
not sure how relevant that is
If Jocketty was some kind of super-negotiator, he could have just as easily signed Rolen that winter and kept Polanco.
Granted, that would have cost us the Bo Hart era, but the 3 fWAR upgrade between Hart/Vina/Cairo/Delgado that we gave up by trading Polanco away might have made the difference in 2003.
But we’d have also given up Daric Barton, and then wouldn’t have been able to trade for Mulder. Sigh.
"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?
Its extremely relevant.
How often are the Cardinals the highest bidders for guys like these on the open market? Locking them up before free agency was key to them being here for a long time.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
Being able to sign all those guys long term also
goes in the plus column for Jocketty. None of the extensions were bad….again…until Mulder came along.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:45 PM EST up reply actions
And remember that time we had a really good player that we weren't going to be able to re-sign?
We wound up with Adam Wainwright.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:53 PM EST up reply actions
but nowadays
you get the likes of Zack Wheeler for a half-season of Carlos Beltran
HAPPY FLIGHT!!!
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit
by BVHeck on Dec 19, 2011 2:04 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Luther Hackman
made me laugh. No offense to Luther or his family.
Who's faster home to first? Yadi or Torty?
by huja on Dec 19, 2011 12:22 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks - I couldn't recall. Thought Tony had input, too. The key is Dunc was all too right about Heren.
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
what I remember is Dunc wanted to keep Haren and Tony wanted him traded for Mulder
and something about “the most strained their relationship ever was” at that point.
Does anyone else remember that comment?
by jealousblues on Dec 19, 2011 4:23 AM EST up reply actions
Looking at their FIP and xFIP over the past 3 seasons
I’m not convinced that Romero is a clear upgrade over Rhodes. And, oh god the walks.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
I think I'd rather have Rhodes than Romero.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 18, 2011 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
these are my feelings as well.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 18, 2011 9:16 PM EST up reply actions
Carlos Beltran
I agree that he is a perfect fit for this team heading into 2012. I reckon this was covered in yesterday’s thread but I haven’t checked. Ken Rosenthal reported the following regarding Carlos Beltran. I found it pretty interesting:
The Cardinals did extensive background work on free-agent outfielder Carlos Beltran last week and maintain strong interest in him, according to major league sources.
Other teams remain in the mix, however, and Beltran is weighing a variety of two- and even three-year options, sources say.
A three-year deal might seem like a stretch for Beltran, who is 34 and had injury-marred seasons in 2009 and ’10 before appearing in 142 games for the Mets and Giants in ’11.
It would seem the Cardinals are performing their due diligence in regards to Beltran’s medicals. I hope that the Cardinals do not offer Beltran or sign him for three years. It seems that the Cardinals are putting all their eggs in the Beltran basket either. Rosenthal also reports:
Other free agents also could fit with the Cardinals if Beltran goes to another club. The Cardinals, sources say, have expressed interest in Coco Crisp, a switch-hitting center fielder, and Cody Ross, a right-handed hitter who plays all three outfield positions.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
and Cody Ross, a right-handed hitter who plays all three outfield positions.
If you can play CF doesn’t that automatically mean you can play the other two?
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
Yes.
But they called Crisp a CFer, and though Ross “can” play CF, I think he is best suited for a corner spot.
by rumors on Dec 18, 2011 11:21 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
thanks for the eval of Ross
I saw the ref to Crisp but thought the “all three” positions comment on Ross was redundant if he can play CF
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
then I'd rather not have him even if we get no one
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
Why is that?
His UZR/150 last year in center was -2.6, and for his career in center field it’s -0.4. He probably wouldn’t set he world on fire (or the outfield) but I don’t get why he’d be terrible as a back up or the smaller part of a platoon.
He's a bit like Holliday IMO
kinda big guy (he has almost Brett-Wallace-esque legs) but with that sort of “football athleticism” that still somehow makes him cromulent in the OF.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 18, 2011 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
Do you mean soccer athleticism or American football athleticism?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
the latter.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 18, 2011 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
He's been below average in the corners
I can’t imagine he goes from below average in the corners to not-bad in CF.
Not afraid to nitpick
Hm. Could it be I didn't pay close enough attention to the innings totals?
I honestly don’t remember how small a sample I was talking about above.
Id assume
because it limits payroll for someone to be traded for
or maybe because he would want a multi year deal?
Id udnno
by jealousblues on Dec 19, 2011 4:29 AM EST up reply actions
So it was you?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 18, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
Not if you have a noodle for an arm, then you can't play RF.
But other than that, yea.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 18, 2011 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
The other eggs...
My initial reaction to Cody Ross was, “No thanks,” but he might not be a terrible acquisition. He projects to be roughly league average offensively, if not a tic above… but his most interesting attribute is career success against LHPs (.384 wOBA in 759 PA). Could make for a nice tandem with Jay in CF, though he’s been an acceptable performer against LHPs thus far (albeit a much smaller sample).
Where does Luddy fit into this field of screams?
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
In all honesty
I would be fine with any of these three players. They’d all be pretty significant upgrades and probably worth their likely contracts.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 18, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
This piece kinda lost me on Beltan...
There are several reasons why the Cardinals haven’t signed Beltran yet:
1. It’s not a margin move, hence more difficult
2. Other teams are pursuing him
3. Beltran is considering those multiple offers and trying to get the best deal he can
4. The Cardinals want to avoid a dumb contract while getting a guy they need now
The implication that the Cardinals aren’t pursuing Beltran simply because they haven’t signed him yesterday is odd, because it suggest that Mo can simply snap his fingers and make it happen. Reality doesn’t work that way, especially in free agency. Otherwise, a certain player would be a Cardinals right now.
All teams make margin moves over free agency. While it’s frustrating that the Cardinals’ only moves so far have been those kinds, I don’t understand the panic button pushing here. The Cardinals’ roster was more or less set with minor questions and one big one, and that big one is primarily addressed internally (Berkman moves to first and Craig becomes an everyday player in right).
Unless, of course, you wanted Rollins. In which case…what happened to the robot I knew?!
yeah i agree
the answer to “Why haven’t we signed Carlos Beltran yet?” seem to be “because we don’t want to overpay just to sign him now”
lotta offseason left
by prophetjohn on Dec 18, 2011 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
agree
also, he’s the only impact guy in a terrible crop of OFers. I’m guessing 5-10 teams might be interested.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 18, 2011 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
the short answer, we don't have a RH CF
and that is a huge need, considering that our only option in that department at the moment is shane robinson, who is nothing special.
by zoomzoomj88 on Dec 18, 2011 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
If we're simply looking for a RH CF
We should sign Cody Ross, since his defense in center is better than Beltran’s in center. Ross could easily be a bench/platoon player on the Cardinals, he’s younger, he’s got some power in his bat, and he won’t break the bank. And if the Cardinals don’t manage to sign Beltran, I really hope Ross is in St. Louis next season.
COCO CRISP IN ALL CAPS is almost certainly better as a CF option than Ross
He’s plus-5, Ross is probably -5 at this point in CF. Ross holds a minor 104-98 wOBA+ career, though Crisp has even been better the last two years and he’s a helluva lot better baserunner.
Not afraid to nitpick
Plus, Crisp will be cheaper and likely require a shorter deal.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Plus SB and occasional pop and sometimes cool hair
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
But panicking is what VEB does best!!
Followed closely by over reactions
bollocks
by SecondHalfMatt on Dec 18, 2011 11:19 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
No. You wanna see panic,
visit the P-D boards.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 18, 2011 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
I think
Over-reacting is our strongest quality closely followed by over-doing Memes and then panicking
Just win
by The Duke on Dec 18, 2011 11:36 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
And then panicking about our over-done memes
by mattybobo on Dec 18, 2011 11:41 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
And the problem is that there's nothing to talk about right now
other than marginal roster moves and trying to Kreskin Beltrán.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
The Beltran line was a throw away line.
I’m well aware of your points. Apparently, the rest of my argument wasn’t cogent enough for people to latch on to.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
Hard to see how the article implies that the Cards aren't pursuing Beltran. It only implies that the Cards should make signing Beltran a priority.
Te comment about pressing panic buttons doesn’t seem to make sense. Simply discussing marginal moves like Schu or Romero constitutes panicking now? How so? Discussing who the Cards should focus on signing, like Beltran, is panicking? the panic button pushing is seems to be something of your creation, not the other way.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 18, 2011 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
I wonder what this panic button looks like and does it have a safeguard?
Perhaps it should require two keys to unlock?
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
Carlos Beltran
Don’t wanna see what his knees look like at 37. Don’t wanna see what happens if he tries to make a return to centerfield. Don’t wanna see Allen Craig get pushed to the bench again. Just… don’t.
by purple_haze on Dec 18, 2011 11:03 AM EST via mobile reply actions
My impression with the Beltran talk...
…is that they’re only pursuing him because of Craig’s surgery and the uncertainty surround when he’s going to return. Once Craig returns, Beltran moves to center, which pushes Jon Jay to the bench or platoon situation.
After next season, if Berkman doesn’t return, Craig most likely moves to first and Beltran moves to right for the rest of his contract.
I know I'm pretty much the lone dissenting voice here
But we could have the Colby Rasmus we wanted all along in Cespedes and at a much lower AAV than Beltran.
by purple_haze on Dec 18, 2011 11:17 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Cespedes supposedly wants double what Chapman got...
and Chapman got $30-$50 million depending on performance.
Sign Roy O
...
http://twitter.com/#!/GordonEdes/status/143778027552260096
And 60 is only twice Chapman’s base salary…
Sign Roy O
If it gets that high, that's another question
But Cespedes agent wants the bidding to start at Chapman money, and Chapman money is only 5 mil AAV. As a starting point, this seems like a very reasonable amount for the Cardinals to jump in.
by purple_haze on Dec 18, 2011 11:32 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
If you look at the details of Chapman's contract...
he’s getting an annual “bonus” and then in addition he’s eligible for a salary through the arbitration system. So his bonuses collectively represent the minimum he can earn. If he’s upright and pitching he’ll get a bunch more.
Sign Roy O
What?
He gets arbitration too? So a major league deal doesn’t buy out his arb years? That’s ridiculous. Where’s my goddamn international draft?
by purple_haze on Dec 18, 2011 11:39 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Seriously though are you sure about that?
by purple_haze on Dec 18, 2011 11:40 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Maury Brown broke it down but I can't find his write up...
6 years/$30.25M (2010-15)
signed by Cincinnati as an amateur free agent 1/11/10
$16.25M signing bonus ($1.5M at signing; $1.5M each Nov. 1, 2010-13; $1.25M each Nov. 1, 2014-20)
10:$1M, 11:$1M, 12:$2M, 13:$2M, 14:$3M, 15:$5M player option
Chapman must decide whether to accept or decline 2015 player option within 5 days after end of 2014 World Series
if Chapman qualifies for arbitration after 2012, $5M is converted to a bonus and he becomes arbitration-eligible
if Chapman qualifies for arbitration after 2013, $3M is converted to a bonus and he becomes arbitration-eligible
defected from Cuba to Netherlands 7/1/09
agent: Rodney Fernandez, Hendricks Sports
ML service: 1.034
Let’s say he gets a cup of coffee in 2010, makes the starting rotation in 2011, and performs exactly like Chad Billingsley.
He gets 2.5M in 2010 (signing bonus and salary). He gets 2.5M in 2011. He gets 3.5M in 2012. He gets 3.5M in 2013. For the 2014 season he is arb eligible and he gets 3M plus, let’s say, another 4M through arbitration for a total of 7M. In 2015 he declines his option and goes to arb 2 for a pay day of 7M. In 2016 he goes to arb 3 and gets 11M. Then he becomes a free agent for 2017.
On top of this he gets seven payments of 1.25M from 2014-2020. So…
2.5+2.5+3.5+7+7+11+(7*1.25)=42.25
It’s not a vast difference… But the key is that there is no ceiling on his earnings. If he performs like Andrew Miller he gets paid 30M. If he performs like Tim Lincecum he gets paid like Tim Lincecum.
Sign Roy O
If we want a veteran influx of short term value
by purple_haze on Dec 18, 2011 11:20 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don't think he wants to leave the West Coast.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 18, 2011 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
I think plenty of people would be happy with cespedes. I know I advocated for him in the daily post that asked what we should do with 20MM of Pujols funds.
But since there have been reports that the Cards are not on Cespedes at all, and there have been no reports that we’re interested, then a sense of realism takes over and you focus attention on moves that seem at least possible.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 18, 2011 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
Doesn't really strike me as a Cardinals move.
Who was the last international guy we signed? Taguchi? I just don’t see us being in on those markets.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 18, 2011 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
Most of you may not realized that
now that Pujols is gone, we can probably promote Mr. Cazana, over Bud Selig’s orders, to the MLB roster, because the lack of proximity of Amaury and Albert would not endanger the major leagues’ competitive balance (double negative = positive, right?).
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 18, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
^realize^
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 18, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
I really want him to get a cup o coffee some day
I always wanted to see him
by jealousblues on Dec 19, 2011 4:34 AM EST up reply actions
Let's go into Yankee mode
Sign Beltran AND Fielder. Trade Carlos Martinez, Matt Adams, and a throw in to the Rays for James shields
Furc
Beltran
Holliday
Fielder
Berkman
Freese
Yadi
Greene
Pitcher
Waino
Shields
Carp
Garcia
Loshe/Westbrook
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 18, 2011 11:15 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Beltran's importance to STL.....
May actually come in 2013. If I’m not mistaken, we only signed Berk for 2012. At some point, age is going to catch up to him. That might come next year. Might point being…..we ended 2011 with AP, Holliday, and Berk as our 3/4/5 hitters…..assuming we don’t bring back Berk after 2012, we’d be down to just Holliday, with Craig POSSIBLY filling one of those. Be nice to have a guy like Beltran already on board, IMO. We don’t have much in the way of power in the minors either. Adams, I guess, but I’m not sold on him at the ML level. Just a thought.
Latos to the Reds per Alonso.
I am a Cardinals fan who lives in Cincinnati. I can say that Yonder Alonso can absolutely not play the outfield. The Reds have had a gaping hole in LF for years, and Alonso has never gotten the job because he cannot make basic plays out there, despite being ready for years to do the .280 .350 Nick Swisher thing. But, while Swisher can actually play the OF, Alonso can’t, at all. (See -4 UZR in 47 games this year.) Anecdotally he is a bad as he is statistically. Alonzo, Boxberger, and Volquez were valueless in the Reds org. This was a Grandal for Latos deal, and I think the Reds won big time.
Right
And the Reds were well remunerated for his trade value.
by EddieHarsch on Dec 18, 2011 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed
Who negotiates from these perspectives? In a trade market, assets are not worth their value to their current organization but their value in the open market. If we traded like this, we’d give away Matt Carpenter and Zach Cox for a lefty reliever.
by purple_haze on Dec 18, 2011 11:37 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Hmmm . . .
I thought I was making the case that Alonso’s market-value should be low. I never mentioned Votto the whole time. The point was – Alonso is a maybe-starter/ bench player, with no flexibility – which means he is not a particularly useful player for any team.
I will go ahead and say that total ignorance of organizational talent is a pretty lousy negotiating position, too. In 2012, frankly, Latos will be more valuable to the Reds than he would be to other teams because they would be looking at getting a negative WAR in their 5th spot. But, I’ll keep any thoughts/scouting to myself unless I read the conventional SABR wisdom first so I can properly preach back to the choir.
by EddieHarsch on Dec 18, 2011 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
Alonso is very clearly a starting 1B
The only reason he was even put into OF was because of Votto blocking him. In SD he’ll be a 1B guaranteed.
Not afraid to nitpick
I agree. I like this deal for the Reds too.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 18, 2011 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
I think it's a fair move for the Reds, and a good one for the Pads.
Probably works for both teams.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 18, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
Plus, Votto is, in all likelihood, only going to be there for two more years, so their window is closing pretty quickly
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Grandal was blocked also by the Reds #1 prospect...
So by your reasoning, they got Latos for free. But in reality, they gave up a ton for a young, cost-controlled pitcher. Latos, though, is not a slam dunk. He could be a product of PETCO, especially with his GB/FB ratios.
by rumors on Dec 18, 2011 11:39 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
He's stats are virtually the same away from Petco.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
What is it that puts Latos on the ace tier above, say, Jaime Garcia?
I know Latos is a little younger and a little better but it seems like he gets not only the Petco advantage (which is an advantage, splits or no) and the advantage of there being no one else on his team that I’ve ever heard of.
by purple_haze on Dec 18, 2011 11:47 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think if a lower-level team such as the Reds acquired Garcia
they’d view him as being ace material.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
I'm kind of agnostic on Latos, but I don't quite think of him as an ace
So I think I agree with you? Ghost of Todd Burns has a point though… often “ace” is a very relative term. Anyway, he’s clearly a good starting pitcher and I am not thrilled about the Reds having him.
if we aquired Latos, hed be our 4th starter.
by rumors on Dec 18, 2011 11:59 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
What?!! He's better than the big W?
Then it REALLY sucks that he’s in the NLC and that he prevents the Reds for sucking as much as would w/o him
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
Damn, snapped back to reality like a whiplash
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
that may be true,
but I’d expect Latos to have better numbers than Carpenter and maybe even Garcia next season. And he’d likely pitch more innings than Waino.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
Eh, this seems pretty homerish
Dude had 189 Ks against 200 baserunners allowed in his debut season at age 23, after skipping AAA. Numbers declined just a tad in 2011, but were still dominant. He’s probably more reliable than Carpenter now, more dominant than Garcia, and not recovering from TJ like Waino.
Mat Latos profiles extremely well as what we all HOPE Shelby Miller will turn into.
I agree.
How do you think his flyball tendencies will play in the Great American Ballpark?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Well, that's the main risk, I think
And I’ll admit I was a little surprised to see his GB rate was as low as it was when I went to look it up. The neutralizer is that his K rate has the potential to be elite, so I still think he’s an upgrade over a GB pitcher with lower K rate (like Volquez). Obviously, guys like Lester or Felix would be best, but how often do they become available?
A lot of people have pointed out that Latos did not seem to benefit from Petco, being essentially the same pitcher on the road as at home. That seems pretty shocking, and makes me wonder if consistency is a skill that he’s particularly adept at.
Regardless, I think a true ace might have just come to the division. Shooting from the hip, I’d say the top pitchers in 2012 are now:
Greinke
Latos
Gallardo
(break)
Carpenter (he can’t possibly throw another 230 innings again, can he?)
Garcia
Garza
(break)
Wainwright (deductions for TJ return time and likely slow return of command & feel)
Cueto
Wandy
Dempster
You could probably sort them in any way within a tier, but these are the main groupings I see. I definitely think Latos belongs in the top one.
the waino ranking makes me sad...
but i can’t argue with the reasoning. comeback player of the year award looks good with the BoB on it!
HAPPY FLIGHT!!!
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit
If Latos is in the top tier, I might put Garz there, too.
Garza:
8.95 K/9, 2.86 BB/9, 3.32 ERA, 2.95 FIP, 3.19 xFIP
Latos:
8.57 K/9, 2.87 BB/9, 3.47 ERA, 3.16 FIP, 3.52 xFIP
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
wow
Didn’t realize how well Garza pitched last year. I suppose the reds went after Latos because Theo and Jed aren’t gonna deal in-division? The twitters told me Garza is available for the right price, and I would assume a high-upside pitcher and 3 former first-round picks would be about the right price…
HAPPY FLIGHT!!!
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit
Latos still has a year until he is arbitration-eligible.
Garza is already in arbitration. I imagine Latos being under club control for four years appealed greatly to the mid-market Reds.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I could see that
I have had a hard time figuring out Garza, what with the even-year dropoffs he showed in 2008 and 2010. Loss of stuff, or just an AL Beast factor?
I worry a little about what he could do his second time thru the NL if he makes adjustments and the hitters don’t..
That's understandable.
I think I’m more worried about Latos playing half of his games in GAB than I am about Garza making a second pass through the NL. Maybe neither are top-tier SPs, but second tier. Also, has anyone read any analysis on Greinke’s ERA/FIP split?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Latos vs Garcia
Part of it is that Latos was more heralded coming up thru the minors; Garcia was usually referenced as a #3 type guy, whereas Latos’ ceiling was usually referenced as an ace. Even now, I think perceptions are that Latos may not have peaked, whereas Garcia’s performance has been a pleasant surprise.
To support some of that, Latos’ K rate has been far superior, so there’s the appearance that he’s the more dominant pitcher…and if he takes just a small step forward (command, off speed stuff, pitchability), then he’s in that upper echelon.
Dominance to date, and perception that he may not have peaked yet
Latos is a pretty good comp for what I hope Shelby Miller can become.
Romero was an effective enough LOOGY even last season.
For some reason he faced like twice as many righties as he did lefties. I don’t think he’s AS terrible as everyone is making him out to be. If used correctly he makes a fine 2nd LOOGY. He’s at least better than the crap we were trotting out there with the exception of Rzep.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:32 AM EST reply actions
I mean, its inevitable that he'll have to face righties,
but Matheny needs to do a really good job of minimizing it. There is no reason a guy like this should finish the season facing more righties than lefties. By the way, I don’t subscribe to the whole “you need to LOOGY’s in the pen” thing, but if you are going to do it, there are a lot worse guys that you could get. George Sherril would’ve been a much better option, not sure they didn’t make a harder run at him.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
He has worse splits than Kyle McClellan.
Does that not matter?
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
Well, K-Mac should be traded anyway.
I’d rather pay .75 million for Romero than $3 million for K-Mac.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
I actually expect them to trade K-Mac.
I think tendering him was just a formality so they didn’t have to let him go for nothing. I don’t think they’ll get much if anything for him, but I hope this is what they are thinking.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
a trade would be pretty interesting
SIGN CARLOS
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 18, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
What do you think K-=Mac would fetch? My sense is rather minimal. . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Ryan Theriot?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Nobody special.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
not much one would think
SIGN CARLOS
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 18, 2011 11:12 PM EST up reply actions
What did Hawksworth net the team?
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
Post-Dispatch Water Cooler Question
“Is Descalso ready to play second base everyday?”
Not only is lboros not one of the respondents, Burwell is. Here is Burwell’s answer to the question:
Descalso intrigues me as a second baseman, not because of a battery of exotic stats culled from some geeky sabermetric calculations. My eyes tell me the defensive tools he displayed in 2011 are intriguing enough to merit a spring training shot at second base.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
ugh.
its shocking that Burwell is still employed. Shocking.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
Burwell is a general sports columnist
Baseball, obviously, isn’t his strong point. I would have liked to hear lboros’ take, but his ignorance about Descalso was pretty much exposed by Goold and especially this comment by Kevin Wheeler:
Considering that second base was his primary position in the minors (343 of his 419 minor league games were at second) I don’t think I’d be going out on a limb by saying he would be fine there.
Yeah.
But I usually read these specifically for lboros’s take.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
yeah his response to that was quite enjoyable
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
The anti-sabr jabs amuse me.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you…
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
First they came after the sabermetricians
But I did not speak out, because I was not a sabermetrician.
by mattybobo on Dec 18, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
As though somehow it's a bad thing that smart people came up with these metrics
Not afraid to nitpick
sounds like my entire junior high experience
SIGN CARLOS
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 18, 2011 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
look im not the most up to date guy with all the stuff
but when you see sports writers say stuff like that the first thing that pops into my head is that they are just too lazy to research for their own jobs.
They dont even attempt to understand these stats, how they are created or why
they just dont want to use their damn brains so they mock them out of hand
by jealousblues on Dec 19, 2011 4:47 AM EST up reply actions
burwell is walking cliche
seriously, what a fucking tool. he is bad at baseball writing.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
That block quote is indistinguishable from what a baseball-writing cliche generator would spit out.
I still am not sure if that is an actual quote, or if this is an alternate universe where Fire Joe Morgan still exists, and those guys actually wrote that quote.
Descalso's certainly got a good glove
But you can’t afford to have two weak bats on the field at once.
Boog would have made that play.
who's the other one?
Jay, Molina and Furcal are all probably somewhere around average.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 18, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
That wouldn't make sense then.
Nearly every team has a bad hitting catcher.
I AM ACTUALLY STLCARDSFAN4 JUST TO CLARIFY YOUR POSSIBLE CONFUSION.
do his eyes tell him that David Copperfield is a damn God too?
by jealousblues on Dec 19, 2011 4:44 AM EST up reply actions
buncha killjoys.
we just won the WS in the unlikeliest of seasons. all of us should still be lying on a beach w/r/t baseball. margins, whatever.
by CircumSwoop on Dec 18, 2011 11:37 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Are you suggesting that the blog should just shutdown and we shouldn't pay any attention to Hot Stove roster moves?
This is a blog about the St. Louis Cardinals. If you want to be “lying on a beach w/r/t baseball,” then you are free to do that.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I've been woooooooooooooooooooooooing for a while
but then they pull this crap
SIGN CARLOS
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 18, 2011 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
You know that thing where we all assumed that no matter what LOOGY came in, he'd walk his batter?
BB/9: 2011, 2010, 2009
Romero: 5.47, 7.12, 7.02
Miller: 5.06, 4.00, 2.27
Rhodes: 3.00, 2.95, 3.38
Tallet: 4.73, 4.42, 4.03
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 11:40 AM EST reply actions
So, Romero is the only one trending in the right direction!
That’s gotta count for something, right???
I like your optimism.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
it also gives a bit of insight into continuity/stability
i don’t think jmo wanted to hand mm too much roster turnover
he too is an experiment, and i’m sure jmo has some concerns there too
skip and kmac aren’t the best ~1.5M can buy, but they are cheap and we’ll see if they are on the roster after july 1
TLR is gone, long live the king
If Schumaker and McClellan were allowed to leave, they still could have returned 90% of the roster.
Also, McClellan will make more than $1.5MM. Probably closer to $3MM.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Seriously
How much roster continuity would he really need? Also, I remember having to hear multiple times that two of the main parts of the tense clubhouse atmosphere were La Russa and Pujols. Well, they aren’t here anymore. So how much does Skip Schumaker really make a difference in the clubhouse, for that matter?
what i was kind of trying to say is
skip will sit w/o much complaining and take his role seriously
so mm doesn’t really have to "manage’ skip that much
and like tlr, jmo apparently likes a veterany bench
TLR is gone, long live the king
I'd like to be able to say that John Mozeliak
was an innocent non-entity during the LaRussa years and that his long-quashed voice of reason has finally been set free. But I never got that impression and if I did, then I never would have gone with the Fire John Mozeliak sig (which I’m willing to bring back at a moment’s notice). He’s let comments slip about needing to make moves to change the character of the clubhouse though and various things that make me less optimistic than the rest of yalls.
by purple_haze on Dec 18, 2011 12:03 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
the character of the clubhouse thing just might have worked.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
I wonder how many character runs above replacement
by purple_haze on Dec 18, 2011 12:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
whatever...
A team that didn’t have tremendous character would not have come back from a 10 1/2 game deficit. You aren’t going to be able to quantify that into CRAR’s.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree with your statement
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
a team that didn't have to endure theriot,
Franklin, etc., might not have been 10.5 games back, which is kinda the point.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 18, 2011 3:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Also,
If Brendan Ryan wasn’t liked by the manager or veteran players or if he was thought to be a distraction, he probably should have been traded. The mistake was replacing him with Theriot.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 12:22 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
What about 2009?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
what about it?
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
Folks seemed to make Ryan into the 2010 underperformance scapegoat.
Why, then, did the club win the Central in 2009 with him at shortstop?
Also, if Schumaker’s clubhouse presence or leadership or whatever is so potent, why did the club so badly underperform with him on the roster in 2010?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I'm not making him into a scapegoat.
I just said that if he wasn’t liked by the manager and veterans or he was thought to be a distraction, he should’ve been traded. Why anyone thought Ryan Theriot was a suitable replacement is beyond me.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
Folks seemed to make Ryan into the 2010 underperformance scapegoat.
Why, then, did the club win the Central in 2009 with him at shortstop?
It is what it is.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 18, 2011 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
(a logically ludicrous statement)
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 18, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
To me the whole rationale behind shipping out Ryan was logically ludicrous.
My counterpoint to it is logical ludicrous. It’s because we might as well be talking about Hogwarts and sorcery as clubhouse chemistry. Laird got into a fight with Molina mid-season and, after he signs with another club, the reporters are lamenting the loss of Laird as a “clubhouse guy.” I’ve always thought winning created “clubhouse guys” and “chemistry,” not the other way around.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Adequosity>Ludricosity
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 18, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
I'll have you know
The cardinals won the world series with theriot at SS, as theriot himself has noted
Just win
by The Duke on Dec 18, 2011 1:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The argument is too early
Especially when you’re basing it entirely on two margin moves.
The only reason to keep K-Mac
is the possibility of flipping him for some low-level organizational depth. There was no reason to keep Skip when Punto was still available for the same money.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
they may have wanted to keep K-Mac just to provide "stability" and "experience".
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
K-Mac is the designated Old Man of the Bullpen?
He does have that beard, and the usually shaved head…
He's the spitting image of previous stability-provider Ryan Franklin.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Reason to keep Schumaker over Punto:
Skip is an outfielder. Punto is not.
(Not debating his actual abilities of being an OF.)
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
agreed.
This is more of a Greene over Punto choice than a Skip over Punto choice.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
I'm aware.
Punto has positions that he can actually field well. Skip does not.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
Punto is an apple. Skip is an orange.
(one that has gone to rot, apparently)
Skip = lemon at this stage I'm afreaid. . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
the argument then is why Skip over Chambers or Komatsu, not
Skip over Punto.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
Fine.
There was no reason to keep Skip whenPunto wasother options were still available for the same money.
There was no reason to keep Skipwhen Punto was other options were still available for the same money.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
because the cardinals feel
that Chambers starting everyday in Memphis will be better for them in the long run.
Grit != flat out sucking.
Is there a quote from someone in the organization on that?
This seems to be a common refrain. I don’t remember seeing a quote from Mozeliak stating this but maybe I missed it.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
no there is no quote
it’s just the only thing I can tell myself to justify the move without admitting that our front office is both Bat shit crazy and stupid.
Grit != flat out sucking.
Okay.
I’ve only ever thought of Chambers as a bench outfielder and have often seen him projected as having a ceiling as a fourth outfielder. With bench outfielder spots open, it would seem that now is the time to see how he fares as a bench outfielder. After all, he brings plus speed and plus defense to the table.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
if they see him as just a beench outfielder
than yes, he should be on the bench.
Grit != flat out sucking.
Well, if they decide to carry him as a bench outfielder
and we sign one of Beltran, Crisp or Ross, then I assume it means they’ve either sent Komatsu back to the Natinals, or have seen the error of their ways, and have sent Skip packing. Assuming 13 hitters, with Descalso as the starting 2bman and signing, say, Beltran, our bench becomes Jay, Skip, one of Anderson or Cruz, Greene and Komatsu. That’s a lot of outfielders sitting on that bench. Assuming Craig can’t start the season, then Jay likely plays CF with Beltran in right, and Skip and Komatsu are the back outfielders…I would guess they bring up an infielder, likely Kozma or some such, until Craig comes back. I don’t see Chambers getting a shot right away, otherwise.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 19, 2011 1:28 AM EST up reply actions
^backup, not back^
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 19, 2011 1:29 AM EST up reply actions
i mean
there have been hundreds of quotes from hundreds of GMs / Managers on players needing to stay in the minors to get At Bats and continue developing instead of sitting on the bench in the majors.
So I wouldn’t think I’m going out on a limb. But nothing has been said in regards to Chambers
Grit != flat out sucking.
Given that they drafted Komatsu and signed Schumaker
It’s hard to say anything other than that the team wants Chambers in Memphis. Which, in a vacuum, I’m fine with.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 18, 2011 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
i think what they're saying
is that there are no good options and they want as much depth as possible in hopes that the cream will rise to the top
teams confuse me
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/padres-interested-in-matt-garza.html
i mean they got stuff for Latos, but i dunno maybe there were things we didnt know about latos and the padres
because TLR
There's that, as well as they might know something about Rizzo that we don't
Though it’s hard to imagine that they do and Theo and Hoyer don’t, but whatevs
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Yeah, they're gonna have a hard time putting one over on their former GM
But I think the issue is fairly straightforward. They’ve got two major league ready first basemen and they only want one. So, while Matt Garza is a bad idea, I think we can expect Alonso or Rizzo to be moved in the near future.
by purple_haze on Dec 18, 2011 4:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
They spent $7 million on Huston Street...
That’s the absolute last place they should be spending their limited resources.
Sign Roy O
probably has some anxiety issue
and will be off the team in a less than a year
by jealousblues on Dec 19, 2011 4:50 AM EST up reply actions
az, you meant there's no need for Skip on the 2012 roster, yes?
and that we overpaid $1 mil/year for 2012 and 2013?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 18, 2011 1:17 PM EST reply actions
The money is basically irrelevant. It's the roster spot that's the important factor
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
this
younger players who have actual upside and are virtually a lock to be at least better defensively are now blocked by a marginal player who is already declining, having started at the bare minimum for a major league player to begin with.
11 in '11!! To Infinity and Beyond!!! ...
the cost seems particularly acute, where we could have
6 years of club control over komatsu, who is at worst a younger, cheaper, and defensively talented schumaker, and will likely lose that opportunity.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 18, 2011 4:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
But I'm just pointing out the error in the year stated
not the amount given. Because that’s the kind of pedantic a*hole I am.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 18, 2011 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
Welp, i got banned from Stampede Blue fo suggesting the main moderator seek counseling
I don’t comment over there a lot anyways, so no big loss, but man, the head writer, Brad Wells (Big Blue Shoe), has got some serious issues
In related knews, The COLTS HAVE A LEAD!
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
that subject line is so funny and right out of the blue
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
c’mon that was damn funny
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
Also, AFLAC is giving me $60 for going to the dentist
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
Feeling gipped that I didn't the 6 minute Dark Knight Rises prologue when I watched Ghost Protocol
I called and asked, and apparently they only have it where it’s the 75mm IMAX cameras and not the digital ones.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
might be a download link here, terrible bootleg quality though
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
also, the linked post confrims that there are only 42 of those IMAX theaters in the country
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
Yeah, I just downloaded it and watched it
Tom Hardy’s Bane looks interesting
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
The prologue is actually showing here in town.
But I’m not going to see it because the theater has a domed IMAX screen and I have only ever a bad movie-going experience when watching a movie meant for a flat screen on the domed screen.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
OT - the topic of "z"-ing other websites has come up often
I just thought I’d give my latest update – I just tried “z”-ing MLBTR. Yep.
For some reason, I did this on Amazon a couple of days ago.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
me too
I did it at work when going through emails also, (I use preview pane in Outlook extensively)
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
I often think SBN is far ahead of the curve
"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5
by Action Jaxon on Dec 18, 2011 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
except has limited editing options which, as pointed out by esteemed members, can be over come, and no subject line editing capabilities, which can also be over come, as pointed out be aforementioned esteemed members,
And the often asked for but never received edit functionality
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
I don't let facts get in the way of my opinions and thoughts
"Why does everyone always forget about Trevor Rosenthal?"
-VolsnCards5
by Action Jaxon on Dec 18, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
I was just jacking around with the last post
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 19, 2011 8:41 PM EST up reply actions
You know, I like Paul McCartney as much as the next guy
but unleashing “Simply Having A Wonderful Christmastime” on the world just about undoes all his good work with the Beatles
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
It is a pox upon humanity.
Not simply a bad Christmas song, it’s one of the worst recordings of any sort ever.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
It's probably one of the biggest reasons why I avoid going to the mall this time of year
Because once the song starts, you can’t escape it. It’s like the synthesizer rhythm entrances you and lays you prone, while the terrible melody intonations musically bludgeon your ears.
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Dec 18, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It's an assault on the senses
and sensibility itself.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
Wow
Not sure I ever noticed that the noun entrance is spelled the same way as the verb entrance….shit is real, man.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 18, 2011 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You know, I like Paul McCartney as much as the next guy
butunleashing "Simply Having A Wonderful Christmastime" on the worldliterally everything he ever did post-beatles just about undoes all his good work with the Beatles
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 18, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
hee hee
Flaming pie
Stupid UCL's.
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Dec 18, 2011 5:16 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
disagree
I think if anyone else makes that album, it’s probably pretty likely to get panned.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 19, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
I liked Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 18, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
Clearly, John had a much better post-Beatles career than Paul
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Dec 18, 2011 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
Eh.
Imagine, his most recognizable solo song, is crazy overrated. John had a couple of good tracks, though.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
I'd take
George Harrison’s solo career over either, though.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Bingo. What a great overshadowed artist.
by Forsch's2nohitters on Dec 18, 2011 8:09 PM EST up reply actions
I thought I was the only person who disliked "imagine.l
I like “watching the wheels” a lot.
And yeah, I agree with the George Harrison comment, “I’ve got my mind set on you” notwithstanding.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 18, 2011 5:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'm a big fan of "Jealous Guy"
although I think I prefer the Bryan Ferry version (embarassingly?).
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 19, 2011 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
dont get me started on that song
its like he just didnt care when he made it.
the delay synth part gets all cluttered and feels out of time and tripping over itself on the “simply having a wonderful xmas time” line
it bugs me every time
by jealousblues on Dec 19, 2011 4:53 AM EST up reply actions
i wonder if i'm getting a little paranoid or what
but over time i’ve often noticed that after a very good front page post is published on here very often within hours a suspiciously similar article appears from one of the pd scribes. today, i am browsing through the pd galleries to find this one published the day after my front pages summary after game 7. it wasn’t even my original idea but i always make sure to give credit. and mind you, newseum only keeps those pages 24 hours so i wonder where they got those images
gee, you’re welcome. we love doing the research for you. assholes
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
by d-dee on Dec 18, 2011 2:49 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
#poachers
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The Post-Dispatch's poaching does seem to have picked up a bit.
I go over there so much less often nowadays that I didn’t even realize they had the gallery of front pages.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Post-Dispatch be frontin' yo
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Dec 18, 2011 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
d-dee since you are the one who downloaded and posted them (so I imagine you can get a quick impression), what's the rough % of how many are the same front pages?
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
all of them
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
Wow! I dare you to point this out in an Belleville New Democrat or some other local newspaper
Those plagiarous bastages!
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
i am a biased newspaperman and all ...
but we tend to be navel-gazers. if there’s some sort of big event on lots of front pages, we’ll compile them and send them to our friends around the newsroom.
ive thought this in the past as well
but then I kind of look at it this way
at least good info is getting out to more people
by jealousblues on Dec 19, 2011 4:57 AM EST up reply actions
Thanks for the post
I agree in a stathead in the basement sense that keeping McClellan and Schumaker are not great moves.
On the other hand, if I were random team looking for a 4/5 starter I would be interested in McClellan (look at Bill James projection – LAIM). He isn’t much worse that Lohse or Westbrook and is significantly better than many 4 or 5s out there (based on results – during his career – not FIP or the equivalent). Bruce Friggin Chen got $4M this year, Paul Maholm will likely get six. In that world McClellan at $1.5M is a valuable asset that shouldn’t be non-tendered.
Now for Skippy. He is literally the 24th or 25th man on the roster. He is a good dude, a good Cardinal and will likely be worth 1-2 WAR. Insurance for OF defense and a Descalso break in emergency back up plan. If Danny goes down and (or just doesn’t manage to be a regular by the skin of his teeth) who else is playing 2B? He should never bat against a LH pitcher, but if Matheny doesn’t get that, we have bigger fish to fry.
by Lawless on Dec 18, 2011 2:49 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
It has occurred to me
that the Cardinals are a place players like coming to play. Why is that? Yes, we win, and that is a big deal. But perhaps being a fair organization that takes care of its own to a further extent than other organizations might can also have a play in this. KMac and skip are organizational guys that have paid their dues, and since the margins of an upgrade are so small, the club may have seen it a no-brainer to forego that marginal upgrade and uphold its image. Both Skip and KMac have bent and bent doing whatever the club needed, with KMac always willing to stretch out and step in as the 5th starter and Skip willing to try a position he had never played before. This thought is purely anecdotal, and i’m just throwing it out there to see if anyone concurs.
HAPPY FLIGHT!!!
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit
by BVHeck on Dec 18, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think this is as good an explanation as any
The cards are a classy organization for the most part and that is a valuable thing to have.
by RasmustheRipper on Dec 18, 2011 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
I might add that they probably did learn from last year,
In as much as resigning them does not guarantee them a full season.
by RasmustheRipper on Dec 18, 2011 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
this is something ive thought a lot about recently
with the spat of “sign pitcher X and tell westy he requests a trade or is put in the pen”
who the hell would sign with this team if thats how we treated people?
by jealousblues on Dec 19, 2011 5:00 AM EST up reply actions
I can't even figure which is the worst move of the 3
they are all really terrible. perhaps, it just goes in order:
#1: Skip Schumaker: a player that is just as likely to put up – or 0 value as he is to generate any kind of positive value. ok, let’s sign that guy for multiple years. uh, what??
#2: Kyle McClellan: Let’s sign a guy who was really lucky last year, yet still posted a very lackluster 4.12 ERA, and gave up the 10th most HR/9 last year (min 120 innings) good for most on the team? yeah, let’s bring that guy back too, and block better players
#3: JC Romero: oh, why not just sign this guy too. maybe we’ll just make Rzep a starter to begin the season. then we’ll just batista him midseason. ok, this one may make a little sense.
SIGN CARLOS
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 18, 2011 3:09 PM EST reply actions
romero's not that bad
certainly couldn’t be worse than any of the lefties we’ve trotted out there in the last few years (flores, miller, etc.)
schu was a stupid move. punto gets the same $ from boston and we get nothing more than a clubhouse guy. put skip in the fredbird suit, why don’tcha. kmac… also a bad move.
Romero is very similar to Miller
and may be worse than 2011 Arthur Rhodes.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Romero is possibly the worst left-handed relief pitcher we've had in years.
He’s worse than Miller. Worse than Reyes. Worse than Tallet. Maybe even Flores.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 18, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Flores was pretty horrendous.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
If by "worst" you mean, "better"
FIP – xFIP Vs left
Romero:
2011: 1.73 – 2.35
Career: 3.42 – 3.55
Miller:
2011: 4.73 5.39
Career: 3.61- 3.82
Reyes:
2011: 13.53 - 13.53
Career: 4.39 - 3.54
Tallet:
2011: 8.32 – 5.50
Career: 4.39 - 4.52
That is, unless he lacks in the “leadership” and “clubhouse” department.
Grit != flat out sucking.
by Evilfrog on Dec 18, 2011 5:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
How many PAs did LHB have against Romero in 2011?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Might want to broaden that analysis to more than just 2011.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 18, 2011 7:23 PM EST up reply actions
Even if they're heavily protected, LOOGYs usually face one right-handed batter for every two lefties
And I’m guessing it’s probably likely that he’ll face more like 60-40. Romero’s been sub-replacement level since 2004, and all those other guys were net positives in recent seasons when we signed them.
I think his complete inability to face anyone of the non-sinister predilection makes him worse than those guys (although I don’t think Tallet is/was a LOOGY at all). FWIW I thought Reyes had better vs lefty stats than that. He did before he joined us!
Provided he never faces a righty, I’m OK with Romero. And TBH with the bullpen we’ve got, arguably he should never have to. I just somehow don’t see that happening.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 19, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
Also
since 2004, he’s struck out 232 hitters, and walked 203.
Yeuch.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 19, 2011 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
he is definitely possibly worse than all of these people
but i don’t think you can conclude for sure that Romero is worse than Tallet was for us.
Sign Hong-Chih Kuo, Trade for Peter Bourjos
What's up with Blue Jays this off-season
They are in on the the Japanese, they were in on latos, they are in on Beltran and fielder, and more. Are they basically going all Marlins on the league?
Players have to love teams like Marlins and Jays starting to spend big money (ok, maybe a bit of a continuation with Jays).
It also seems they have the same likes/dislikes as Mo and his team. It seems if we like someone, the Jays are the other team involved. I wonder if they were the Albert mystery team. I so wish Albert could have been reunited with LazyRasmus,
Just win
The mystery team was supposed to have a well established 1B in place..
I was wondering if maybe it was the Phillies.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions
I think it was either Washington or Toronto.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
remember
the supposed “inside” trade rumors coming the Phillies a couple years ago?
Howard for Pujols?
by jealousblues on Dec 19, 2011 5:02 AM EST up reply actions
I guess it's the strength of the Canadian dollar
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Dec 18, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
I guess they've got a good shot at winning now
they could be legit contenders this year, even in that division, with an upgrade or two.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 18, 2011 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
the jays are spoilers
total smokescreen to the rest of the AL East (specifically the Rays) just to drive up the price so teams in the division don’t pursue the players. Beltran is the most obvious choice, as the Rays would LOVE to have him for DH as cheap as possible, but the Jays always steal their targets (Rasmus)
I don’t see them being serious about Prince, but they could push his market up. Does anyone here SERIOUSLY think the Cards are going after Prince? or are we waiting for his value to drop?
I think we're mostly just fucking with the cubs.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 18, 2011 4:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
are we totally thumbs down on Mike Cameron
veteran, good clubhouse guy, can probably still hit lefties;
nice fit for the underside of a platoon with Jay?
Not worth more than a non-roster invite to Spring Training, imo
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Dec 18, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
My preference order:
1) Carlos Beltran
2) Coco Crisp
3) Mike Cameron
4) Cody Ross
I have Ross below Cameron because Ross is reportedly seeking a three-year deal and I have no appetite for that. I believe the top three could be had on 2 guaranteed years, 1 guaranteed year, and 1 guaranteed year respectively and that’s my preference.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
there is no way on this planet that Ross gets what he's looking for.
Not in years or dollars.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
DO NOT WANT CAMERON
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 18, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
there' no such thing as a bad minor league deal.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 18, 2011 4:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
No, I think it was a guaranteed ML deal.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 18, 2011 7:24 PM EST up reply actions
I stand corrected. I remembered the $750k and thought it was guaranteed.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 18, 2011 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
in that case, giving batista a minor league deal
Was not a bad idea. The bad idea was playing him over salas, sanchez, and lynn.
If his deal had been used to get us depth, it would have been fine. If his deal had been used for a tryout (like ian snell), it would have been fine. Guaranteeing him a major league role from the outset was the problem.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 18, 2011 7:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
i just saw the generalization
and was determined to poke a hole in it.
/shitheadery
HAPPY FLIGHT!!!
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit
Haven't seen them linked to him at all, but
I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if the Marlins won the Darvish bid.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 4:07 PM EST reply actions
Can't believe they beat the Packers.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 18, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
Colts win
wow
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
Hopefully they go on a streak of ... what ever it takes to not be the worst team ... so they don't get Luck
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
ha...i didn't even know that for sure,
but upon checking…yes indeed, the Rams lost.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
does anybody need to look at the tv to know this?
I just assume the rams lose until someone tells me otherwise.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 18, 2011 4:32 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
One of these is not like the other
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Did anyone see this?
Wonder if lance berkmans endorsement for beltran at st. louis awards dinner will help carlos. #stlcards, #bluejays
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
What STL awards dinner?
Maybe that was the reason Berkman was in town than
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 18, 2011 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
I have mostly avoided the Broncos and the NFL
Generally. Just watching the Bronocos-Pats game, I’m much more impressed by Tebow’s supporting cast on the offensive side than Tebow himself. It looks to me that they have a great running game.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 18, 2011 4:57 PM EST via mobile reply actions
tebow is like
15 game winner Jason Marquis in 04
(I think thats the right analogy)
by jealousblues on Dec 19, 2011 5:08 AM EST up reply actions
the issue here is...
These are the moves around the margin — the Miguel Batistas, the Aaron Miles — that have plagued the Cardinals for years. They were often driven by Tony LaRussa and it was supposed that John Mozeliak was, in some ways, an unwilling accomplice to these kinds of signings.
They People assumed they were driven by TLR and supposed that Mo was an unwilling accomplice. That assumption was incorrect.
Grit != flat out sucking.
i think the problem is anyone asserting as fact exactly what roles are played in the front office
as far as we know, mo’ is a good PR guy and dewitt makes all the decisions. or maybe it’s fredbird, etc. but the assumption that you’re so certain is incorrect seems like a reasonable one given context
yeah...
Time will tell.
He hired a rookie coach and than assembled his coaching staff. The excuse of him just doing whatever the coach wants should be out the door. (it should have been out the door when he traded C. Duncan years ago.)
Grit != flat out sucking.
I remain steadfast in my desire to see 1 full season of Mozeliak moves
sans TLR before I decide about him as GM. The Romero, Skip and McClellan moves are not chits in his favor, but I’m going to let 2012 play out before I decide whether I like Mo or not.
Makin' toast!
DING
Butterin' toast!
ha..
JoeStraussJoe Strauss
Would expect “action” from Cardinals this week. Would say more but on vacation. I’ll leave the fun to @dgoold.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 5:29 PM EST reply actions
What does this even mean?
Would say more but on vacation.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
"Internet connection weak inside Dungeons and Dragons convention center.
just enough signal to squeeze out a catch-all tweet to cover my ass."
Joe Strauss is nowhere near cool enough for D&D.
A D&D convention, maybe.
"Nothing Motte does is quiet. It's mostly screamy and intense." - sheckiezx
"I'm a graduate of the Mike Shannon School of Diction" - Al Hrabosky
by monkeysareblue on Dec 18, 2011 7:47 PM EST up reply actions
All the cool kids play Pathfinder now.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 9:24 PM EST up reply actions
^this made me laugh
then I realized we are a site of baseball stat nerds ripping on dungeons and dragons and had a Star Trek vs Wars realization
(Trek > Wars > Tebow)
by jealousblues on Dec 19, 2011 5:11 AM EST up reply actions
gonna make a nebulous prediction that is not
Sufficiently specific to be proven wrong later, but mysterious enough to pass for “news.”
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 18, 2011 5:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Other generic tweets auto-saved in queue
“Look for interesting news about Cuban and/or Japanese in near future.”
“Cardinals OF situation may or may not clear up soon.”
“A’s to shed payroll this offseason.”
“Mulder in best shape of his life.”
by siddfynch on Dec 18, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
After we mocked the
“Berkman is in the best shape of his life” articles, and found out that Berkman, in fact, was in the best shape of his life, I don’t know what to think anymore.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
I would advise you to think of that article as a statistcal outlier.
Blid squirrels, nuts and all that jazz.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
It means:
“I know something you don’t know, but since I’m on vacation you’ll have to wait until Goold tells you….but just so you know….I knew it before you did”
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
or he could just be drumming up pub for his colleagues piece and promoting the paper he works for
joe may be what he is
but you guys can be a little over the top as well
by jealousblues on Dec 19, 2011 5:13 AM EST up reply actions
If you could have 1 prospect
From any team, who would you pick?
by rumors on Dec 18, 2011 6:05 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I would accept him also
Think the Rays would take Daryl Jones and Bryan Anderson in return?
Maybe, but we'll have to make sure that the Reds are okay with us borrowing Jones.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
I know this is a joke,
but Daryl Jones is now in the Reds organization.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Matt Moore, probably
perhaps Machado, or Profar, but i don’t really know quite enough about them.
Sign Hong-Chih Kuo, Trade for Peter Bourjos
Trout
Moore is a close second though
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
i forgot Trout
he would be nice too. while Harper is a great player, i have much less interest in him than i do a premium defensive position.
Sign Hong-Chih Kuo, Trade for Peter Bourjos
Trout/Harper/Moore
This trio is the subject of plenty of debate. Neverthless, I think Harper has the best combo of upside and safety.
i do not disagree with your assessment of Harper
and i think he is properly ranked as the #1 prospect. nevertheless, the question was asked, who would i rather have- and i’d rather have Trout, Machado, or Profar, as i would trade the increased risk for the possibility of an elite player at a premium defensive position.
Sign Hong-Chih Kuo, Trade for Peter Bourjos
Fair enough
On my personal want list, I’d go Moore. Love the trail he’s blazed thru the minors, and how the Rays have handled him.
Does Strasburg still count?
If not, then Moore.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
wait, nevermind...
I was thinking he still had 6 years service time to complete, but forgot that he was on the 25 man roster when he had TJ surgery.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
6 years of service time is a prospect to me
and that’s why I asked.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
> 50 IP
That’s the standard I usually see, regardless of days on roster / service years remaining.
eh, I'm just asking because 6 years of control is 6 years of team control regardless
if they’re on prospect lists or eligible for ROY.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
He doesn't have six years service time.
He’s at 1.118 right now because of his injury.
I AM ACTUALLY STLCARDSFAN4 JUST TO CLARIFY YOUR POSSIBLE CONFUSION.
Harper 1A Trout 1B
Can’t teach 80 power. It’d have to go down the line a ways before I’d get to a pitcher, the flameout rate is just too high.
Not afraid to nitpick
I'll go against the grain and pick Jurickson Profar
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Risky
You could be an assistant GM in CIN.
I mean, the answer is obviously Harper/Trout/Moore, but I just wanted a different pick
He’s an 18 year old who hit .286/.390/.493 in the Sally league, and by all accounts, he’s a plus fielder at SS
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
You're such a rebel.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I don't play by society's rules
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
you're the Butt Police of Asstown
Sign Hong-Chih Kuo, Trade for Peter Bourjos
by tehzachatak on Dec 18, 2011 6:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ah man, I just got this reference
Kiss my peener
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
To expand, he's a young player at a premium position with a great eye and good power
If he retains all of these skills, he’s an elite, plus-plus player
If he can’t play SS as he moves up but keeps the bat, then he’s an excellent prospect at 3B or 2B
If he can still play SS but the power never develops, then he’s an excellent leadoff man
If he can still play SS and the bat just completely goes to shit, he can still be an Elvis Andrus type.
There’s a lot of scenarios that he’s still a very good player in the future.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
All of these obviously apply to Trout as well, and a few levels up to boot
That’s who I’d actually pick.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
So if Trout loses his bat he can be Corey Patterson?
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
That's probably his worst case scenario, yeah
But he’d had to literally lose his bat somewhere though
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
He'll still walk
A Trout who ends up not developing power and moving to RF would be an interesting comp to try to find, but I don’t think it would be Patterson.
Brett Butler?
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 6:49 PM EST up reply actions
well he never moved to RF,
but definately had no power, speed, and high OBP
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 6:51 PM EST up reply actions
Butler
Still seems like one of the all-underappreciated.
Paul O’Neill?
Mark Kotsay?
(I wanted to say Brian Giles, but looked up his stats – holy crap, the Angels should be ecstatic if Trout “only” turned into Giles in RF. Just too bad Giles never got full time PT until Age 26).
Seemed like everytime he came up it was a bunt single or a walk.
followed by a stolen base.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
Brian Giles was awesome. It’s a shame he was stuck on the Pirates so long.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
He's closer to the Hall of Fame than I would have thought.
In fact, he should be on borderline status when nobody’s even considering it.
(He has 60 career WAR. Not going to count his last year where he was atrocious unfortunately)
I AM ACTUALLY STLCARDSFAN4 JUST TO CLARIFY YOUR POSSIBLE CONFUSION.
Randy Winn?
I have no idea…
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
Sure
The worry on Profar is just that 1) that he may not have any one elite tool, and 2) he’s a long way away still.
I agree with placements of him in the top 10 of prospectdom. He’s just not in that low-risk, high ceiling class of a few others yet. If he can retain most of the thunder in his bat while moving up a level in 2012, he might the best prospect in baseball…but I think the jury is not quite in yet.
I might take also Machado over him, long term concerns notwithstanding. They will be an interesting pair to watch next year.
Machado seems far more likely to move to 3B than Profar, imo
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Bryce Harper.
Will be in HOF someday, I predict.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 18, 2011 7:28 PM EST up reply actions
Brewers win Norichika Aoki bid rights
They bid $2.5 million for posting rights.
Aoki will be 29, plays CF, and has a career line of:
.339/.421/.497/.918
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
How was 2.5m the high bid for Aoki?
What? Anyone?
"Nothing Motte does is quiet. It's mostly screamy and intense." - sheckiezx
"I'm a graduate of the Mike Shannon School of Diction" - Al Hrabosky
by monkeysareblue on Dec 18, 2011 7:50 PM EST up reply actions
I'm just stunned that no other team DID bid higher.
I would be very happy with a higher bid from us.
"Nothing Motte does is quiet. It's mostly screamy and intense." - sheckiezx
"I'm a graduate of the Mike Shannon School of Diction" - Al Hrabosky
by monkeysareblue on Dec 18, 2011 7:53 PM EST up reply actions
Remember that time we lost a World Series game because somebody fucked up the bullpen phone communication?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Can somebody find me the TLR/Hello this is dog picture plz?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
yes
Sign Hong-Chih Kuo, Trade for Peter Bourjos
by tehzachatak on Dec 18, 2011 6:31 PM EST up reply actions 9 recs
Holy crap that was fast
Where was it?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I did!
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Welp, fair enough
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
ARF moment of brilliance. Congrats tehz . . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
If I may just add a bit of perspective
to all of this, I hereby reproduce the top headline in the Orioles section of today’s Baltimore Sun:
Orioles Closing in on Deal With Endy Chavez.
There is a reasonable chance that this is the biggest offseason move the Orioles make between now and ST. This is the shit I’m supposed to be excited about. Freakin’ Inning-Endy Chavez.
At the moment, Shumaker’s and Romero’s roster spots pale in comparison.
Endy Chavez is a way better bench outfield option than Skip Schumaker.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
The Orioles are in brutal shape as an organization.
I’d rather have Endy Chavez than Felix Pie, though, I think.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
It's midnight somewhere
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Baby Monkey Riding on Pig!
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
Interesting
Houston’s drafts from 2005 through 2007 have produced just four major leaguers, the fewest of any team. In those same years, St. Louis drafted 24 future major leaguers, the most of any team.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
The replacement has to be Michael Elias, right?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I was thinking they would give it to Vuch all this time, but I have no idea right now...
who are some external options we can look at?
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
I 'unno
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I'm terrified that they are going to go with one of these ex-ballplayer scouts.
Terrified.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
I don't think they will. There's almost no way
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Steal Logan White?
Is he still with Dodgers?
Do you know how large Luhnow's staff was?
Besides scouts, I mean?
I always thought the management structure there would be interesting to learn more about.
Is he a good fit?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
ryan franklin is a scout now.
/Self-bans.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 18, 2011 11:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Who is going to replace him?
Surely some unknown person (to us), who was close/paid attention
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
Or apparently not
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 18, 2011 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
The worst thing about Skip's signing...
Because the marginal baseball skills is his annoying behavior in the batter’s box
After every single pitch he has to call time, stick his bat in his crotch, and adjust his gloves. Every single pitch.
If I could change one rule about baseball (well, besides the upcoming constant interleague play), I would change how time outs work. Make it so the umpire can’t grant one unless it’s an emergency
Better yet, replace them with robot umps that won’t grant timeouts and call a consistent strike zone
haha
@JoeStrauss
Props to Clemens, Rams D. Statistically, they played Bengals to no worse than a draw. Penalties (again) a joke.
@dgoold
@JoeStrauss statistically? #dontsabemebro
HAPPY FLIGHT!!!
Running list of Molina pick-offs | twit
i was at the game
I’m not sure if they showed it on TV. The dome was empty. But there were some horrible calls by the Ref
Grit != flat out sucking.
Jon Jay was also at the game
And got the loudest cheer besides half time when they retired faulk and all the old guys did the bob and weave in the endzone.
Grit != flat out sucking.
Latest on Beltran
Per Jim Bowden
Cards continue pursuit of Carlos Beltran with resolution possible early in the week
I hope they wrap this up soon. Adding Beltran plus Wainwright for 2012 puts us squarely in the 90+ win category, IMO.
woooooooooooooo!
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 7:48 PM EST up reply actions
This post is not for WOOOing.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
Honestly, I don't understand why we bitch about k-mac and skip
These are low cost moves that give enough redundacy for a trade and provide Matheny clubhouse stability. Face it, most young ballplayers are Prima donnas that are fixated on proving themselves and making a career. Sometimes, maybe often, it’s worth it to pay a veteran a million bucks a year, to play and not bitch about it.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!
by Zubin on Dec 18, 2011 8:28 PM EST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
okay. I don't know that there's any basis for this
Opinion, but it’s yours and you’re entitled to it.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 18, 2011 9:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
This guy bob... baseball player... super young...
prima donna… he plays a lot of frisbee too.
"I don't know, but it works. Doin it for Torty works... He brings us luck and we're gonna roll with it." Allen Craig
because they are not very good?
SIGN CARLOS
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 18, 2011 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
If you could only have one:
Michael Choice?
Anthony Gose?
Oscar Tavares?
by rumors on Dec 18, 2011 8:46 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Out of those three?
Tavares
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Gose is pretty close for me, I'm not sure
Gose is more likely to stick at CF out of these three, Taveras needs more PAs for me to feel confident in picking him.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
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Gose is good butfor the ability to make contact
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
It goes like this for me
Taveras
Choice
Gose
Taveras is the best hitter out of the three, there’s no denying that people who hit like he does at his age and level tend to go on to great things. A little concerned about plate discipline but I think he’ll generate plenty of power.
The other two have strikeout issues. Gose has a longer history with ‘em and I don’t think he’ll ever really solve them. I saw a quote from him along the lines of if he could ever stop swinging at breaking balls in the dirt, he’d be the hitter he wants to be. Choice, on the other hand, improved his K rate all year long. The other reason I like Choice over Gose is that he has big big big time power, I could envision 40 homeruns at his peak. Gose can play centerfield, but his bat falls short on most counts compared to the other two. You could probably convince me that the positional adjustment is enough to bridge the gap, but I think he’s just on a lower tier as a hitter.
by purple_haze on Dec 19, 2011 1:24 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
what I will remember most about Julian
1) he looked like Freddy Kruger vaguely
2) throwing the pine tar hat to the crowd and putting his arm around the ump
3) some guys like em skinny, but not Tavarez, he liked em nice and big
by jealousblues on Dec 19, 2011 5:24 AM EST up reply actions
prett sure he was tavarez
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Dec 18, 2011 9:21 PM EST up reply actions
i wasn't sure either
I’m also pretty sure he’s not dead
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Dec 18, 2011 9:24 PM EST up reply actions
dying is for quitters
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Dec 18, 2011 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
i spell it differently every time
Because I can never remember.
by rumors on Dec 18, 2011 9:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Playing veteran - 5/3/5
Suck it, Deep Blue.
"Nothing Motte does is quiet. It's mostly screamy and intense." - sheckiezx
"I'm a graduate of the Mike Shannon School of Diction" - Al Hrabosky
by monkeysareblue on Dec 18, 2011 8:56 PM EST up reply actions
I love the "see what the computer is thinking" part.
And yeah, I used that feature to cheat.
"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?
i finally won 10
After getting beat 18 times and tying 28
by rumors on Dec 18, 2011 9:07 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Really? I hovered around .500 for long time before I quit
You probably have a very apparent pattern.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
17/15/18 It gets a lot better at guessing the more you do it, I was up 15/14/7 then it kept winning.
Manchester City: 38 points, 12-0-2, 1st in EPL, +35 GD
Sergio Aguero: 11 G, 3 A
Edin Dzeko: 10 G, 3 A
by cardinalswsbound on Dec 18, 2011 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
7/6/5
wooooo
"Nothing Motte does is quiet. It's mostly screamy and intense." - sheckiezx
"I'm a graduate of the Mike Shannon School of Diction" - Al Hrabosky
Reply fail.
"Nothing Motte does is quiet. It's mostly screamy and intense." - sheckiezx
"I'm a graduate of the Mike Shannon School of Diction" - Al Hrabosky
by monkeysareblue on Dec 18, 2011 8:57 PM EST up reply actions
Good post, but I feel like there are some counterarguments.
The new regime is keen on a Anderson/Cruz backup catcher competition. I expect LaRussa would have pushed for (and maybe even not received to Mo’s credit) another year of Laird.
As far as the Schumaker situation I know this is a silly dreamer’s way of looking at things but he’s loved in the clubhouse and particularly by a Wainwright that I’m sure the FO wants feeling plenty warm and fuzzy while they slide a pen, extension, and plate of Poppy’s across the table to him.
by infallibleopiniongenerator on Dec 18, 2011 8:59 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAL
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 9:09 PM EST reply actions
And another.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 9:20 PM EST up reply actions
Carp taking in the Blues game.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
So, you guys didn't get anything done while I was gone?
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 9:09 PM EST reply actions
I took another step toward alcoholism and insanity
so nothing new, really
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Dec 18, 2011 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
Congrats.
Keep reaching for your goals.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 9:20 PM EST up reply actions
VEB is always so supportive
I love you guys
am sober atm btw
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Dec 18, 2011 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
back off, we don't like it when you're all clingy like this.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
WHY DON'T YOU LOVE ME
all I do is give
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Dec 18, 2011 9:28 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, so Twitter's a bad forum for this
But one reason I think MI4 was so successful is because the director had a history in animation. When I took the Film Symposium at USC, the co-producers for Tangled came in and discussed their big action sequence for us. They said that it’s almost impossibly hard to think of every single frame that they need to animate, from certain water splashes to camera angles, to all of that.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I loved Tangled
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
tangled was a great movie. I will fight anyone who says different.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 18, 2011 9:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Yes and you guys got nothing accomplished.
I was expecting another centerfielder to be signed by the time I got back. Slackers.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 9:31 PM EST up reply actions
welp
John Morosi
Aaron Miles to return to the Cardinals on 2 year deal. Signing expected to be worth 2-3 million.
by hr on Dec 18, 2011 9:31 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
That's actually not a bad value based on his 2011
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Quiet, you.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 9:34 PM EST up reply actions
I think this signing will look good in a year, Miles might go all Bautista on us.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
Think of your favorite movie. Does it pass the Bechdel test?
The Bechdel Test, sometimes called the Mo Movie Measure or Bechdel Rule is a simple test which names the following three criteria: (1) it has to have at least two women in it, who (2) who talk to each other, about (3) something besides a man.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Metropolis fails this test
as do many Kurosawa films I can think of.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
favorite movie ever!
"I don't know, but it works. Doin it for Torty works... He brings us luck and we're gonna roll with it." Allen Craig
so women talking about shoes passes?
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
That might've been the first porn I ever downloaded
Took like 2 days on a 56k
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
chinatown fails the test.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 18, 2011 10:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Casablanca fails the test.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
The African Queen does as well.
Also, many Marx Bros films.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 11:12 PM EST up reply actions
The Third Man fails this test.
The Maltese Falcon fails this test. North by Northwest fails this test.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Rooster Cogburn fails
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
The wife and I
shall research “No Country for Old Men” tonight and get back to you. She;s under the impression it’s a romantic comedy.
what's good, VEB?
everyone have a good weekend?
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 18, 2011 9:41 PM EST reply actions
Yes.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
good. i hear getting drunk with a bunch of front office folk from a soccer team is fun business.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 18, 2011 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
go to bed.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 18, 2011 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
no I'm just saying it was boring...
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
no i know.
i was being a smartass.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 18, 2011 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
i was irrationally disappointed when i found out bennett wasn't real.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 18, 2011 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
Frankly, I've had better.
Father-in-law hospitalized following a fall at home and at least one fracture, will have to be in assisted living for a while (possibly a long while); wife on the way back from emergency room as I write. But everyone was still alive at last check.
"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.
by StanTheManFan on Dec 18, 2011 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
My father in a 3 week span
Feel out of the attic twice. First time he went through the ceiling. He landed on a tool box and broke a rib. Than he feel down the stairs of the attic to break his heel 3 weeks later. Now he is in a wheel chair for 3 months.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 18, 2011 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
hope hes better
but a wheel chair sounds safe
because TLR
by punchinjudy on Dec 18, 2011 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
did a show saturday night
got compliments on my guitar playing… was asked if I take jazz guitar lessons. which I haven’t, self taught.
SIGN CARLOS
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 18, 2011 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
that's pretty cool.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 18, 2011 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
I was surprised
and a little weirded out, since I told him my band’s name. then he said, I didn’t say anything about your band, just that you are a good guitar player. then he took off.
SIGN CARLOS
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 19, 2011 12:05 AM EST up reply actions
people are weird when dealing with bands
its like they go retarded
“I know you said you dont know the song at all but…just try to play it”
“I know you dont know how to throw a slider/do calculus/prepare puffer fish…but just TRY!”
by jealousblues on Dec 19, 2011 5:30 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I played a public performance space above a vfw christmas party
it had a nice view of the interstate. we were participating in a composer’s birthday where he gave us pieces to perform. or in our case, he did spoken word over our music interpretation of his poem/shortstory.
SIGN CARLOS
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 19, 2011 11:57 PM EST up reply actions
I was just looking at pictures of him looking at stuff like 1 minute ago.
Weird.
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, i was browsing pitchfork when i found out
what a coincidence
by prophetjohn on Dec 18, 2011 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
I wonder how his fat kid is gonna do who has been raised on that stuff from birth
Not afraid to nitpick
no longer ronery.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 18, 2011 10:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
I wonder when the people of North Korea will find this out.
I would guess about 2014.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 18, 2011 10:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Two other possible explanations for the KMac and Romero signings could be personal relationships.
I recently read an article that said that KMac and Matheny were very close.
Also, Romero may have been recommended by Oquendo and/or Yadi from their time together on Puerto Rico’s team.
Other than putting personal relationships above performance, i think risk aversion and injury depth/redundancy are the rationales for these moves.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 18, 2011 10:30 PM EST reply actions
Quick. Who can come up with the best Vince Coleman joke ?
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Dec 18, 2011 10:49 PM EST up reply actions
it's not a vince coleman joke but . . .
" . . . And that was why they decided to close the golf cart factory built over the old Indian burial ground."
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 18, 2011 11:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
That looks like a grade 70 linebacker
Excellent pursuit in traffic. Decent lateral correction in response to evasive action. Good forward mobility of the hips towards the end. Also an intimidation factor that’s hard to quantify. Looking forward to seeing him at the combine.
We should have plenty of money to spend next
Offseason. With Lohse and Westy off the books we will probably have at least one vacancy in the rotation. At first glance, the crop of SPs looks very strong, but a lot of the top tier guys will probably get resigned (Hamels, Grienke, Cain) and some have club options that are likely to be picked up (Baker, Haren, Floyd, Hudson, E.Santana, Shields, Carmona) That still leaves a few decent options though, who is appealing out of this list:
Danks
De La Rosa
Liriano
A.Sanchez
J.Sanchez
Peavy
Marcum
by mick311 on Dec 18, 2011 10:45 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Short anecdote
I sat about 20 feet away from Shawn Marcum throughout the entirety of game 6 in a bar in Liberty, MO and went effing nuts when we won it.
That's actually pretty cool
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
i've never even heard of liberty missouri
by prophetjohn on Dec 18, 2011 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
Looked to me
like he didn’t give a crap about who was playing since he wasn’t. He was just drinking and hanging out with the boys.
Josh Hamilton
Trade Westbrook
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 18, 2011 10:55 PM EST up reply actions
you really think grienke gets resigned?
actually, same with all of those guys. hard to think they don’t hit free agency.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 18, 2011 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
We haven't decided on what the competition will be.
Either a bubble bath wrestling match or fantasy football.
VEB WINTER MEET-UP DISCUSSION
SIGN CARLOS BELTRAN
it's soooo not over between me and whomever that is.
mendenhall and brown have to make up 20 against vernon davis. i like me chances, but it’s certainly not over.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 18, 2011 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
You're right. Points are pretty easy to come by in your league. We'll see.
VEB WINTER MEET-UP DISCUSSION
SIGN CARLOS BELTRAN
mendenhall can get his 15 and i'll probably certainly win, but it'll be interesting.
i think i’ll put up a fanshot and/or discussion thread on what you guys want to see for next year.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 18, 2011 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
can't wait for tomorrow
i bought so blueberry muffins from the HEB bakery so i can stop eating breakfast at mcdonalds, but still be able to eat in my car
really looking forward to a muffin you guys
I don't understand why this is a question.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 18, 2011 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
I'm Ron Burgundy?
Sign Hong-Chih Kuo, Trade for Peter Bourjos
by tehzachatak on Dec 18, 2011 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
also got bananas and apples
a muffin, a banana and an apple. that’s a gat damn man’s breakfast there
by prophetjohn on Dec 18, 2011 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
were you going to mcdonald's every day?
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 18, 2011 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
well, yes
but every day was 2 days. which was enough
i used to always cook some sort of breakfast, but i’d just have to get up way too early for that
by prophetjohn on Dec 18, 2011 11:47 PM EST up reply actions
yeah. breakfast is the one thing i can actually do...
but who the hell has that hour to spare in the morning?
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 18, 2011 11:55 PM EST up reply actions
s/hour/5 minutes
Sign Hong-Chih Kuo, Trade for Peter Bourjos
by tehzachatak on Dec 18, 2011 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
wat
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 18, 2011 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
google sed
or better yet, click this:
Warning though, there are some things you can’t unsee.
"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?
Your daily December Christmas song:
Händel – Messiah oratorio, HWV 56 / “For unto us a Child is born”
The Choir of King’s College, Cambridge
The Brandenburg Consort
Stephen Cleobury, conductor
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 19, 2011 12:05 AM EST reply actions
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