The Case for Carlos Beltran
by azruavatar on Dec 11, 2011 2:00 PM EST
Email
Print
One of the questions in a post-Pujols world was what the Cardinals would do with the $20M+ that had originally been allocated as Albert Pujols? The team provided part of that answer yesterday by signing Rafael Furcal to a 2 year, $14M deal. With some young players set to take active and prominent roles at 2B, there are a diminishing number of positions at which a reasonable free agent upgrade exists.
Carlos Beltran, however, fits that bill perfectly.
It's important to first understand what Beltran is. He's heading into his age 35 season and has, at times, had injury problems. Despite that, he posted a 4.7 WAR last year. Assuming that his last three seasons are not injury impacted (probably a specious decision for 2010) what would a Marcel style weighted average look like for his offense.
.398 * 3/12 + .332 * 4/12 + .389 * 5/12 = .369
So a .369 wOBA in something like a .322 wOBA run-environment (league average for 2009-2011: .329, .321, .316) is easily better than league average.
Over the past three seasons, the defensive metrics have begun to sour on Beltran as well. Where he was once a well above average centerfielder, last year's +/- found him to be average in RF and UZR was particularly critical of his work there. Some arbitrary correction for regression and aging can lead to a reasonable conclusion that he's a slightly below average right fielder (0 to -2.5) and below average (-5 to -10) in centerfield. A reasonable argument could certainly be made that he's better than this but we'll be conservative and stick with these assumptions.
Perhaps the most important question is how do you fit Beltran into the current team's structure with three everyday outfielders and a dedicated first baseman already on the roster. Let's try and rack up as many games for Beltran as we can.
- RF: With Craig having surgery and questionable to be ready on time, the Cardinals can hedge their bets with Beltran. Let's assume that he gets the first 15 games of the season in RF because Craig isn't fully recovered. Of the remaining 147 games, we'll allocate 10% or 16 games. That leaves Craig with 131 games in RF. Beltran gets 31 games.
- CF: Jon Jay's first season as the de facto centerfielder will be interesting. Concerns over his BABIP are realistic given his plate discipline. Assuming he hits at league average and continues to play above average defense, there's little reason to penalize him too harshly using Beltran who doesn't have the CF chops he used to. Beltran is slightly better as a right handed hitter than a left handed one but doesn't feature a large platoon split. Let's say that between days off for Jay and "hard to hit" left handed pitchers, Beltran picks up about 30% of the playing time in centerfield or about 48 games.
- LF: You want Matt Holliday in the lineup as much as possible. Over 8 seasons, he's averaged 142 games a year. We'll allocate 10% of LF appearances to Beltran for another 16 games.
- 1B: Berkman at first base won't need many days off but when he does you could move Craig to the infield and stick Beltran in RF again. We'll say that Beltran picks up another 10% of the season this way for 16 games.
- DH: The Cardinals have six away games in the AL on their schedule next year. Got to have a DH.
So assuming no massive injuries to anyone, you can easily come up with 117 games (~70% of the season) for Beltran to find playing time. My point is not to convince you that the above break down is absolutely right but merely plausible. It also provides us with a PA threshold (we'll add in 5% for pinch hitting appearances bring him up to 75% or around 500 PAs) to use in our offensive valuation calculations.
Perhaps the most difficult part of the above description is finding a way to make it palatable to Carlos Beltran who most like sees himself as an everyday player still. He may be right in that assessment. In that scenario, the question becomes does the offensive upgrade over Jay justify the downgrade on defense. Assuming a 15 run spread between the two (Jay is a +7.5 fielder and Beltran is a -7.5 fielder), Beltran would need to be about .026 pts of wOBA better on offense to compensate. If the answer to that question is yes, the decision calculus described above is moot and it is a much easier decision for the team.
Back to the original assessment where Beltran is a jack of all trades. When you tally it all up, that leaves Beltran as a +20 runs offensive player in 75% of a full season, +17.5 in replacement level value, -5 on positional adjustments and -5 on defense. Basically, he's around a 4 win player with 100% playing time and a 3 win player as utilized above.
A dollar valuation at that WAR level would be 1Y/15M or 2Y/27M. It certainly seems that estimates for his contract are coming in below that. If the Cardinals can procure his services at or below those levels, the depth that he would create throughout the outfield and the offense has to be considered. Injuries are always a concern but Carlos Beltran still has the potential to be a force for a major league team in the middle of their lineup.
1022 comments
|
7 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Completely agree
I just can’t see anyone giving him three years, so maybe we’ll be able to do this…
Sign Roy O
Jay is a +7.5 fielder?
That’s being pretty optimistic in my opinion. I think he’s average defensively in center personally.
I try to be as conservative as possible when doing back of the envelope calculations.
I’d rather an error/assumption make you more convinced in the general premise as opposed to less convinved.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
beltran is a switch hitter?
damn houston had a lot of those guys.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
Nice post azru
regarding this:
Perhaps the most difficult part of the above description is finding a way to make it palatable to Carlos Beltran who most like sees himself as an everyday player still. He may be right in that assessment. In that scenario, the question becomes does the offensive upgrade over Jay justify the downgrade on defense. Assuming a 15 run spread between the two (Jay is a +7.5 fielder and Beltran is a -7.5 fielder), Beltran would need to be about .026 pts of wOBA better on offense to compensate. If the answer to that question is yes, the decision calculus described above is moot and it is a much easier decision for the team.
I doubt that Jay is a full 15 runs better than Beltran in CF. I’d say 5-10 is probably more reasonable (Jay is about average and Beltran is maybe -10 at this point). However, I’m damn sure a healthy Beltran will easily wOBA far more than .026 points above Jay. Honestly, if Beltran (and everyone else) is healthy, he should play everyday against lefties (spelling either Craig in RF, who moves to 1B, or Jay in CF), and most days against righties (direct swap for either Craig or, more likely, Jay). In a fully healthy team I’d say Jon Jay is quite clearly the odd man out in terms of quality, and should spend more time than the others on the bench.
We should approach Beltran by basically telling him that every day he’s healthy, he’ll be on the field (barring days off), as he’s almost certainly better than Jay at this point and probably better than Craig. In fact I think (if it makes him more likely to come to StL) we should basically guarantee it.
Still bitching to contact.
another thing in Cards favor
is the chance to win (if that means anything to him). Beltran has only played in post-season two times (both against the Cards and losing in NLCS) and hasn’t he seen any post-season games since A.D.A.M. sent him and the Mets home in 2006. He doesn’t have many chances to win a ring at his age and St. Louis might be the best fit for him in that respect. Getting a few days off regularly, if he is mentally OK for it, is only going to help extend his career.
I don't think it'll be a hard sell.
You just play it like you’re moving other people around to accommodate him. Craig moves to 1B when Berk gets a day off, and to LF when Holliday needs a day off; either way Beltran plays RF. Craig can even be the DH instead of Beltran (he has experience!). If anything, letting Beltran play CF might appeal to him.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 11, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Yep. Just say "Carlos, if you're healthy, you play every day" and move the other pieces around as appropriate
there’ll still be (absolute bare minimum) 400+ PAs each for Craig and Jay. And everyone can be deployed to take better advantage of their strengths (platoon split etc.).
Depth != redundancy.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah Jay at +7.5, lol?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
What about playing Craig at 2B?
Not every day, but some times, and then bringing Green or Descalso as the late-inning defensive sub, a la Freese/Descalso last year. Doable for sure.
Great article, btw.
"The Mollusk" makes me want to rail LSD crystals off my friends' sternum. Rage."
by ICEYhawtSTUNNAZ on Dec 11, 2011 2:20 PM EST reply actions
I still hate this Craig-to-2B thing.
I just don’t think it’s something he can or should be asked to do. Let the guy concentrate on his hitting, and on playing the corner OF very well. I worry that asking him to play a role he’s literally never done before in his baseball career (with any regularity) is going to impact the other aspects of his game. Even with Beltran, there’s plenty of PA for everyone. Berkman and Jay should both be relatively minimised vs tough lefties, for a start, and Craig could well miss or struggle in the first couple of months.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2011 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah has traditionally been better from the right side...
so that’s a match with Berkman.
Sign Roy O
Craig's field positon is clearly "Batman". . . . Though he was credible + in the outfield
See the leaping catch to deny a homerun and the way he garroted the last out of the Series. . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Did you see the postgame interview?
He said it was the first time he had ever robbed a home run at the wall like that.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Thanks, did not see that. He picked one hell of a time to break in highwall robbery. . . gotta give him that one!
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
i think the knee surgery pretty much put this to rest.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
Yup.
Besides, if Craig’s power is real then his bat will play just fine at 1b or in RF. If folks want to focus on a defensive transition because David Freeze is the 3B for the near future, then look at Matt Carpenter. The excellent plate discipline and above average on base skills would play well a 2nd and his rep as an above average defensive 3B would make the transition easier. Seems like a good player to lead off for the Cards.
Carpenter is a BIG guy (tall, not heavy)
and I think 3B-to-2B is a much harder transition than the other way round (turning the double play etc). Could be wrong but I really can’t see him ending up at 2B.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2011 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
I was only a fan of this before pujols failed to re-sign.
Compound that with knee surgery, and I think it makes little sense.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 11, 2011 5:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
My one concern with Beltran is the very thin OF market this year
basically any team wanting an OF is looking at Beltran or perhaps Drew as the only everyday, impact FA options out there. Besides those guys, there’s Cody Ross, Josh Willingham, and a bunch of below-average guys, broken down vets (Vlad, Damon, Burrell), and part-time players. There’s not a lot of value there, and Beltran is about the only guy on the list who has much of any chance of being a 4+ WAR player in 2012. I think that could make him more sought-after than we assume, at this early stage in the winter.
Still bitching to contact.
Think I prefer Cody Ross or Coco Crisp
(who is another probably-above-average guy I didn’t mention).
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
i wonder if us having berkman helps at all
i wonder if they have a good relationship
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
Puma only played a half-year with him
He probably doesn’t know him that well. But who could dislike Puma? I admired him when he was ripping up Cards pitching
Great post
and I love the breakdown of how they can spread time across positions. Most of what makes this move so great is the fact that if any one of Holliday, Jay, Craig, Berkman, or Beltran are on the DL, this offers the flexibility to field a competitive offensive/defensive lineup anyway, and in times of good health (knock on wood), builds a solid bench bat onto the roster.
Like you said, it’s all contingent on the cost in my eyes, but I see no negatives at 2/26 or even 3/33.
The Beltran/Berkman comparisons (injury prone, age and defense a concern)
are of interest to me. I know that all Berkman like signings will not work out as well as Berk Berks, but Beltran would not cripple the roster for years to come (just as Berk hasn’t, and won’t).
BERK BERK BERK!
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2011 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
Can you email this to Mozeliak?
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Dec 11, 2011 2:39 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I just cant figure out where we plan to spend all this money going forward
I’m hoping for a main page post looking a few years down the road soon. It seems to me the organization is pretty happy with most positions going forward, with Holliday in LF, Craig in RF or 1B, Wong at 2B soon, Furcal bridging to Jackson (hopefully) at SS, Freese/Cox at 3B, and Yadi behind the plate.
As far as the rotation goes, Waino, Garcia, and Shelby should front the rotation for several years, with guys like Lynn and Scrabble to fill out the starting five. And I don’t see any reason to stop with the current plan for the pen in years to come. Keep cycling in big arms at low cost.
So that means that CF and either 1B or RF are the only positions that do not appear to have a long term plan in place.
With all that being said and no money values figured in and my limited knowledge of the minor league system, it is making more and more sense to me to make a push for Prince. So, if someone could put together a more detailed post to convince me I’m wrong, I’d greatly appreciate it.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Wainwright should get a contract extension that should push in the neighborhood of $20 milion
Yadi will be pushing $10 million, Freese could get himself a decent sized extenstion with a big year…but yeah, still lots of wiggle room.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
Speaking of Molina..
Once the roster gets filled out shouldn’t we begin the negotiating process with him?
I don’t know if the fans could handle losing him too.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
What are the odds he'll be an Angel in 2 years if Conger doesn't work out?
VEB WINTER MEET-UP DISCUSSION
SIGN PRINCE FIELDER
pretty decent odds I'd guess
definitely better than 1/30
by infallibleopiniongenerator on Dec 11, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
none, they just got Ianetta
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
oh wait...i don't think they signed Ianetta to an extention yet
so maybe some chance I guess.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
It it a rule in this universe that every Molina should play for the
Los Angeles of Anaheim del Condado de Naranja de California once in their lifetime.
Irish provenance of the schwa pronunciation of vowels in weakly stressed syllables -> Missoura
bueno. . . .y muy lista. . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Think a bigger factor
is a what, 31 or so year old catcher, with over 1,000 games on his knees worth by then?
by Forsch's2nohitters on Dec 11, 2011 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
Losing Yadi would be mega-depressing
by purple_haze on Dec 11, 2011 2:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I agree
and we don’t have a suitable replacement for him in farm system. With Westbrook’s and Lohse’s contracts coming off the books next year, there should be money to extend Yadi (assuming he is agreeable) and A.D.A.M.
Robert Stock!
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
pretty sure Matheny/McGwire are going to mold Bryan Anderson into a
.270/.350/.390 catcher with plus defense
by infallibleopiniongenerator on Dec 11, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
let's not get carried away here
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
SSS alert
Didn’t get to see much of him, but he showed a very strong arm. He caught 2 of 4 men running – granted, many didn’t run off of him.
Also, Yadi has a career 88 OPS+. Tony Cruz had all of 72 plate appearances with an 89 OPS+.
There are plenty of similarities to be found, but also a ton of differences, I’m sure. I have no clue how Tony Cruz handles his pitchers. He didn’t have the TLR praise that Yadi had every step of the way, for one.
It could be interesting to find out over the next few years.
don't get me wrong, I like the idea of Cruz and Anderson competing for the #2 catcher job
and if I’m not mistaken Matheny has said he likes them both. I just think calling him a Yadi clone might be a bit overstated. He looks like a good defender, but not that good.
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
he does have a pretty good arm apparently.
Threw out 44% of runners in the minors. Yadi threw out 45% in the minors in roughly the same amount of attempts.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 6:36 PM EST up reply actions
I was surprised by Cruz's arm
when he came up this year. I thought he was a converted infielder who was supposed to be more offensive than defensive as a catcher.
I'm willing to defer
to the wisdom of our manager when it comes to evaluating catchers. If he thinks we can win with Cruz it’s fine with me.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 11, 2011 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
Or we could trade for wieters next offseason
When he gets to expensive for Angelos
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 11, 2011 3:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
meg ryan impression?
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 11, 2011 3:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I love the idea of Prince
But Boras is looking for 200M…we’d be right back where we would have been with Pujols in terms of payroll flexibility (or lack thereof)
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 11, 2011 2:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
thing is
it seems to me that we are set up to not have to worry about payroll flexibility going forward due to planning to pay for Albert AND the amount of promising talent we have in the system. I mean, we’ve only got something like $53 million committed to 2013 with catcher, first base/RF, and CF the only positions that aren’t filled. If the plan is to rely on Jay in CF, that just leaves extending Yadi and coming up with a 1B/RF option and the entire starting eight is set. This also assumes going with some combination of Descalso/Greene at 2B until Wong is ready to step in.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I think I'd rather have Cespedes, personally
But I certainly understand the love for Prince.
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 11, 2011 3:18 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You could argue that Matt Adams and Oscar Taveras are our long-term plans at 1B and RF.
Although I’m pretty sure that several of the prospects in this post are going to suck or flame out (or get traded). Once you factor in big pay rises for guys like Waino, maybe Yadi, and then (in 2-3 years) guys like Craig, Jay, Freese etc. – I’m sure Bill DeWitt won’t have to go giving all his spare money to the Salvation Army.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
I admit I'm not a big prospect guy
I only mentioned five and one of those, Cox, is basically an insurance policy for Freese. The only others I mentioned are Jackson, Miller, and Wong. I’d be curious to know which ones you expect to fail, but I’m pretty sure it’s Jackson and Cox.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Jackson definitely, I think his ceiling is probably league average and there's a good chance he's no better than a Cesar Izturis-type
and FWIW I’ve never been a bit Matt Adams believer, although I think he may deserve a chance in 2013 if he tears up AAA next year. I think Cox will probably be OK, although again like Jackson I think he’s very low ceiling and may end up being blocked by Freese (and Matt Carpenter, who I think is probably a better, albeit less-hyped, prospect). I’m pretty sure Cox will top of our list of players to trade next season, anyhow – he could well be moved for something if he has a solid year and we need deadline help.
I think I’d maybe put Wong in the low-ceiling category as well.
Really, the main point I was making is that prospects do flame out, and so, even though we’ve got viable prospects in every position (more or less), so do many other clubs in MLB, and yet no-one’s got a completely home-grown team, which means that even relatively advanced, high-floor guys (like Cox, Carpenter, and Jackson) sometimes amount to nothing. I don’t expect anyone to fail specifically, but the law of averages suggests that some of them (perhaps a majority) will.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
that is depressing
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 11, 2011 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
adendum - I'm not a huge prospect guy either. This is just my uneducated opinion.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
Jackson is like Jon Jay to me
Primarily known for his defense at a premium position, not ultra rangy but with good reactions, noisy swing but good contact skills. In other words, not a guy who should be considered the heir to the throne as I’ve heard mentioned around here a few tines but someone who’ll have to linger in a utility spot for awhile and maybe fight for the starter’s job.
by purple_haze on Dec 11, 2011 5:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
yeah, and at ss
so really valuable, imo. the question at this point is if he hits enough. even if he hits sorta bad, he can still be really valuable, sort of like boog, except he’s a lot younger.
My guess is he's average to maybe a touch above average at short
by purple_haze on Dec 11, 2011 6:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
jackson's rep at ss is well above average
he doesn’t have the range boog did, but he is very sure-handed and quick with a good arm.
I've seen Jackson a couple of times
He’s well above average
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Yea, I saw him once too
Guy is pretty excellent. Of course, he also plays next to Cox, so my eyes might have been deceiving me.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 11, 2011 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
I only saw him once and he looked good.
But a couple times he couldn’t reach some grounders up the middle that say, Boog would have gotten to. He’s not all that fast for a shortstop.
by purple_haze on Dec 11, 2011 9:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I would agree that his range is not Boogian
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
You have to keep in mind that the defensive standard for shortstops is quite high
Being average to above average at the position means you’re a very good defender.
by purple_haze on Dec 11, 2011 11:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
i've only seen him once
but you’re the only person that’s i’ve seen give jackson’s defensive scouting report as average
I don't think Jon Jay was ever primarily known for his defense in CF.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
FUTURE BATTING CHAMPION!!
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 11, 2011 5:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Well, you don't HAVE to spend all
the money.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 11, 2011 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
I said I wouldn't go above 2/24
After thinking further, I’ve amended that to 2/28. That’s my ceiling
I’m worried about Craig’s injury. That type of surgery has lingering pain and potential or patella-femoral pain written all Over it
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 11, 2011 2:49 PM EST via mobile reply actions
shhh
you’ll scare everyone talking like that
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I'm only able to follow your meaning inasmuch as
it’s made me blow my brains out.
On the bright side ghosts can type.
by infallibleopiniongenerator on Dec 11, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
I don't like it.
Beltran would be coming into positions that are the team’s strength, i.e., corner outfield (I doubt if he can be an effective CF any more). Requiring a position change, either for him or for whoever he displaces, is an invitation to injury. And he won’t be worth the bucks unless he plays essentially full time. I don’t see that happening.
This is going to be a very good team this year, even without … everything that has happened. Bank the money and prepare to use it on people we’ll need in the long term, even if that use doesn’t happen until next off season.
"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.
His offense would make him a valuable CF
Even if he is below average as a defender there.
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 11, 2011 2:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Agreed
I think Beltran is the best fit for the roster. He brings a lot to the table and is great insurance in case Craig is out longer than expected. Get him signed Mo!
plus
getting the guy out of that black-hole-of-a-stadium in NY would probably help his power a bit, which may help his projected stats.
Not as though the Cards medical reports are less than stellar. . .
I’d say they rank with Pravda editorials in terms of credibility . . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Due to positional adjustment
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 11, 2011 3:05 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
re: banking the money.
We have 6 picks (I believe) in the top 100 of next year’s draft. I like the idea of saving $5m or so for that, even if we do sign a Beltran-type.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2011 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
Caps in draft spending now
Affects that plan
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 11, 2011 3:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
it's not really a cap
more of an artificially induced inefficiency. $5M should still go a long way, right?
"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?
Not really
You have to give up future 1st round picks if you go 10% over your budget.
Not afraid to nitpick
guess i missed that bit
I thought it was just a heavy tax, ugh.
"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?
If we can get Jon Jay and Coco Crisp on the same field
by purple_haze on Dec 11, 2011 3:04 PM EST via mobile reply actions
there's a pujols one also
bet you could pick it up real cheap right about now
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Might be interesting, if you decorate it a little
Maybe with some dollar signs.
I certainly wouldn’t wear it on its own like I do the “Tigers: Team of Destiny” shirt that I picked up at the ’06 victory parade for 80% off.
by purple_haze on Dec 11, 2011 3:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
$10 will get you 5!
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Yadi?
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 11, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
Would anyone be in favour
of bringing in Manny Ramirez as a super pinch-hitter in the mould of Jason Giambi with the Rockies?
Bursting into song.
hellz yes...
I happen to believe there’s room on the roster for Beltran, Berkman, Drew, and Manny.
Sign Roy O
Oh man, we'll be like a 2005 All-Star team
by purple_haze on Dec 11, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
we've already got Furcal
….I made the joke and then I went and looked. Furcal has only been an All-Star twice. I am way surprised.
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
Not much difference given the amount of time he's on the DL
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
hell no to both Drew and Manny
Manny’s got the whole suspension thing to deal with and he was a completely awful fielder even in his prime. JD Drew can piss up a rope….the absolute last thing that I want in the immediate post-Pujols aftermath is JD fucking Drew, of all people.
As for Beltran, I’m trying not to be over-optimistic, but azru’s post is pretty persuasive that as long as the money is right, Beltran’s a good fit.
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
manny wouldn't be here to play in the field, he would be a bench bat
i can’t figure out what your argument against drew is
I figured it was self-explanatory
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
Most of Cardinal Nation...
seriously dislike JD Drew. Most baseball fans seriously dislike JD Drew.
Sign Roy O
JD Drew is a textbook example of the entitled athlete stereotype
and the context of the Pujols debacle just makes the thought of Drew returning to St. Louis even more intolerable.
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
i didn't follow the team as closely when he was around
so, is there really any evidence that this is true, other than what people perceive based on his body language? of not, i think the conclusions are a little too strong
it's not just body language
Drew was the second overall pick in the 1997 Major League Baseball Draft by the Philadelphia Phillies. Drew and his agent Scott Boras chose not to sign with the Phillies, sticking to their guarantee that they would not sign for less than $10 million. The Phillies had no plan to pay an unproven player this amount of money, and despite Boras’ warnings, drafted Drew nonetheless. Consequently, Drew ended up playing for the St. Paul Saints of the independent Northern League. Boras had Drew sign with the Northern League because of a loop hole in the rules of the MLB Amateur Draft.1
It’s not like when he got paid by St. Louis, then he suddenly gave a shit. Basically, as far as I can tell, Drew is this guy, except getting paid more. And he’s already played here once and even the forgiving St. Louis fans don’t like him.
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
okay, fair enough
he’s probably a douche bag based on that.
that doesn’t factor into my decision, though. i would take him or manny as bench bats if the price were right
he made $14M last year
signing Beltran would be plenty FA veteran goodness for me, along w/ Berk and Furcal. I don’t think we need an expensive bench bat (and I can’t see Manny being cheap either, even with the suspension still to deal with).
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
obviously the price has to be right
and i can’t see many costing hardly anything. he was supposed to make $2MM last year with the rays. he has a bunch of baggage, is 39 and is due for a 50-game suspension. i think a non-roster invite to ST with the chance for a $1MM contract gets him done
i don’t know how much drew will cost, but it was suggested he could end up in a bench role. i don’t think i’d pay more than $2-3MM for him to sit on the bench
oh wow, I'd forgotten he only made 2M last year
I still don’t think I’d take him, but that’s different, considering we’re considering giving Punto $1M.
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
sometimes my sentences would work better if I wouldn't edit it them five times
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
also, he was terrible last year.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
.222/.315/.302
286 PAs.
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
maybe the Angels will sign him
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
anyway, to finish up about Drew
I’m an introvert and I understand players (like McGwire and Pujols both actually) not really enjoying the interaction with the public so much. I don’t necessarily need them all to be funny and nice and cuddly.
To take another example, Brad Penny (a very good pitcher) missed four months with an oblique strain in 09 (I was actually at the Penny/GS game against the LAAA). Even knowing what sort of numbers to expect, I wouldn’t want Penny back on my team except in the most desperate of circumstances, for that reason alone.
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
i agree about penny
mainly because he showed that he had a shitty work ethic and wasn’t committed to getting back in playing shape
Drew famously spends a lot of time on the DL for minor issues
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
not necessarily, you're right
what I’m saying is that Drew all but has “shitty work ethic” tattooed on his forehead. He’s averaged 440 PA per year for his career. Some guys have shitty luck with injuries, but he’s exceeded 600 PAs once in 14 years.
FWIW Pujols has ~1300 more PAs than Drew, in 3 fewer seasons, and with at least two chronic ailments (right elbow, plantar fasciitis).
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
This narrative is baseless.
Plenty of people with great work ethic have injury problems. Mark Prior has tried to come back at least half a dozen times- his body betrayed him.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
Technically, his pitching coach betrayed him
I actually tried to help him last year, and sent him a text, but he never got back to me.
Boog would have made that play.
Yeah, obviously hubris was a serious issue for Prior,
since stories came out on rehab attempt (let’s say) 4 that Prior had said he absolutely would not change his mechanics.
But if anything, that is indicitive of the exact opposite of laziness: Stubborn workaholism.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
Man you'd have thought after they found DEAD TISSUE IN HIS SHOULDER
He may have thought “hey, my mechanics might NOT be perfect”
Not afraid to nitpick
Last Feb I Talked to a relative of his
Who is the one who gave me Prior’s cell phone number.
Basically, Tom House has a Svengali-like hold over Mark Prior and Prior takes House’s word as gospel. House is now in cover-up mode and the last thing he can admit is that the mechanics he taught Prior may not have been perfect.
Will Carroll’s got the same problem; he wrote a whole book around Tom House’s stuff, so he can’t really admit that the book is full of crap.
Boog would have made that play.
Will Carroll has other serious issues.
Like the fact that he doesn’t know anything about pitching or injuries.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
more about JD from Wikipedia
Drew struggled to stay healthy, landing on the disabled list every season he played in St. Louis. In his book Three Nights in August, Buzz Bissinger mentions former manager Tony La Russa’s frustration with Drew’s lack of passion. La Russa tells Bissinger that it seems Drew has decided to “settle for 75%” of his talent, in large part because of his enormous contract
I’d recommend reading Three Nights in August. It is an interesting book.
it is
and I am very glad that I read it before I found out what kind of a raging asshole Bissinger is.
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
I would've never bought it had I known what a douche he was.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
a leaky one. . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
not really
i mean, i like it as a back up plan if we don’t get beltran, i guess, but we really need someone to help with that first 50 games of the season, when he won’t be able to play. plus i really don’t like the idea of giving money to a guy who has been suspended for a positive PED test.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
Don't forget
Manny will face a 50 game PED suspension at the start won’t he? That first 50 would be where we really need if Craig is out. I don’t think all the drama you’d have to put up with (“MBM”) is worth the trouble. I’d vote against this.
true
but if we can bring him in for the league min, or even 1,000,000. then he needs only provide minimal value over 100+ games to be worth the outlay. Plus there is no guarantee there won’t be more injuries in the future.
Bursting into song.
that makes sense
I just wonder how much a diva he is going to be? The team has solid leadership in Carp, Waino, Berkman and Holliday. If Manny starts pulling MBM stuff I don’t think that is going to go over very well in the clubhouse.
Chances are he's going to produce a lot
i’m willing to suffer through some obnoxious-ness for that. If it all gets too much then he can be released, its not like he’s gonna have a massive contract.
Bursting into song.
the PED suspension doesn't bother you at all?
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
yeah it does
but two things: I personally really want to see him play for the Cards because i love him AS A PLAYER. And i think he can produce enough to make up for the suspension, and if he doesn’t then he can always be traded / released.
Bursting into song.
Swap him for Braun???
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
yeah, he'd be an amazing pinch hitter
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 6:59 PM EST up reply actions
no.
he’s 40 years old, hasn’t played in a year, starts the year on a 50 game suspension, would likely be a major distraction, he can’t play the field at all.
I don’t think Mike Matheny wants a headache like this in his first year on the job.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
oh...and he hits women.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
Don't understand this comment
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Well, i don't think its exactly okay
for a roided out 260 lb. athlete to be beating on his wife.
I guess that’s fine with you, though.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
ok, this makes more sense.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 6:36 PM EST up reply actions
For Milwaukee, maybe.
"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.
by StanTheManFan on Dec 11, 2011 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
having a little fun on twitter with the #pujolscrieswhen hashtag
spants is killing it.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
I'm a softie but the line about him crying when he received the Cardinals 5 yr offer
really softened me up towards the guy. I mean maybe it’s unreasonable that he felt disrespected by it but on the other hand I can’t really blame him for wanting/hoping that the Cardinals were going to lock him up forever.
by infallibleopiniongenerator on Dec 11, 2011 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
Think you're probably on your own there.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2011 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
I'm sure there are a few others somewhere in the world
by infallibleopiniongenerator on Dec 11, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
I'm here for you.
It’s ridiculous when you think of the amount, but it sounds like he didn’t want to have to leave for the money; he just knew that he was going to.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 11, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
that kind of sounds like a south park thing
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 7:00 PM EST up reply actions
If true, I think it was potentially a massive negotiating blunder
The FO bet Albert cared more about AAV than total years and lost a ton of good will.
I have a suspicion that if they had instead started out at something like 10/180, things might have ended up differently.
I severely doubt it
Making an offer that could plausibly compete with 10/254 was not in the……..Cards.
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAHHH
Not afraid to nitpick
oh wow, i feel like i don't know you, joker
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
about this disrespected by 5 year offer thing
he was definitely offered a 9-10 year contract by the Cards. The Cardinals FO wanted desperately to sign him long term, but they just weren’t going to give him something that would beat the A-Rod contract. Pujols knew that, or should have known that, regardless of what fairy tales Lozano was whispering in his ear.
I mean, a mid-market team fucking offered him 9/198 last winter and that didn’t get it done. So then this year they offer him a shorter deal to give him a higher AAV, and he takes that as an insult, and I’m supposed to like the guy more because of that?! I don’t follow.
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
first offer after he became fa
allegedly
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
for those who don't have twitter
this is my favorite from spants:
#PujolsCriesWhen the local Starbucks employees don’t draw a heart next to his name on his cup of hot cocoa.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
by IHeartBoog on Dec 11, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
you can still just search "pujolscrieswhen"
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
I have an autographed Pujols photo framed on a plaque
and I haven’t taken it down yet. It’s positioned next to signed photos of Ozzie Smith, Willie McGee and Mike Shannon. I have cherished this for years after my wife gave it to me as a Christmas present. I am probably going to take it down later today and put it in the closet. It makes me really sad to do this, but I just can’t stand to look at this any longer. I might put it back on a wall after he retires but right now I’m not real sure. One thing is for sure it won’t be hanging next to my signed photos of Cardinal legends anymore.
Boy a frosty cold Budweiser would be great about now"…long pause…then an "aahhh". --Mike Shannon
by KYCards on Dec 11, 2011 3:25 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
I have several SI covers of him hanging in the gym....
and they will have to come down as well. Thought about burning it all, or donating the shirts with his name on the back… I think I will have to wait until I calm down some more before I do anything like that though. The pictures and mag covers have to go though. I don’t want to see the rat’s face.
I just want him out of sight...out of mind right now
I don’t think I can even stomach watching him next year at all. It’s a good thing I don’t watch Angels games or hardly any American League games for that matter. Albert will just be another player in the AL that I don’t follow.
I have a bunch of his baseball cards as well. Maybe I can find an Angels fan and sell them off. Thankfully I didn’t buy his jersey. That would be worthless right now.
Boy a frosty cold Budweiser would be great about now"…long pause…then an "aahhh". --Mike Shannon
That's the one silver lining
if we had to see him a couple of times every year playing for the F’ing Marlins, that would be a real wrench.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2011 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Aren't we slated to play the AL west in 2013 though?
Which would mean a series or two year after next? Or am I not thinking correctly?
Yep, but we'll probably only see him 3 or 4 series, max, over the course of the contract.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
With year-long interleague play beginning 2013,
is there a chance we’ll face them more often? not sure if the new deal means a greater number of interleague series per season.
yes, we probably will
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Dec 11, 2011 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
it's a small mercy he went to the AL
the media coverage of an otherwise meaningless regular season game vs the Marlins or (shudder) the Cubs would be totally unbearable.
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
One of my buddies pointed out
that playing on the west coast will cut down on his media exposure somewhat because of the time difference. So at least that’s better than having him play for the Bosox and seeing him in ESPN 20 minutes a day.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 11, 2011 7:17 PM EST up reply actions
i have an unopened wheaties box with him on the front
i don’t know what to do with it
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!
I have the same Wheaties box
I put it out in the garage the other day in a box and covered it with a bunch of old concert shirts that I hung on to for some reason. I thought of throwing it away but I was like screw that maybe I can make a buck off it one day.
Boy a frosty cold Budweiser would be great about now"…long pause…then an "aahhh". --Mike Shannon
Sell it to Lozano . . . He can sprinkle the contents in some locale of his choosing and then
go after them lickity spit . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
It's tough...
I have 3 AP jerseys that I would wear on different occasions. There was the “everyday” AP jersey that I didn’t mind spilling a little mustard on. There was the jersey that I would only wear on Sundays. And there was the really nice ’06 WS jersey that I would only wear on special occasions. I just finished carefully folding them, placing them in a clear plastic clothing bag and storing them in a Rubbermaid container in my shed.
***sigh***
"There is one word in America that says it all, and that one word is, 'You never know.'" Joaquin Andujar
Imagine the ovation Molina would get if signs an extension this offseason.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 3:26 PM EST reply actions
it's funny the difference a few days makes
i suggested locking him up and was pretty much laughed at…albeit not you
because TLR
I don't see what is funny about it.
Get it done.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
comments i got were
sign mccan
rather have waino
catchers age fast
and look at joe mauer
because TLR
Catchers do age fast
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 11, 2011 3:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Ditto
But price has to be right
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 11, 2011 3:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You really think he is/will be HOF worthy?
by Forsch's2nohitters on Dec 11, 2011 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
I don't
It’d be neat, but I don’t see it happening.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:44 PM EST up reply actions
I suppose the bigger question
is what is it going to take? I’d be surprised if they would go below five years so you’re probably looking at 5/50 or more.
No thank you
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 11, 2011 3:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I might go 5/50
think he’s probably a 4-ish WAR guy now, so even if he only continues at his peak for another couple of years and then falls off a cliff, it’s not unreasonable. 4/40 would be better. I don’t think he’ll still be catching 140-odd games in his mid-30s.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
4/40 is my
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 11, 2011 3:59 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Is my peak
Maybe even 4/45 with a 5th year option…but 5 guaranteed would be a non-starter for me
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 11, 2011 4:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
4-ish seems high
He’s done >4 once, this past season, and >3 one other time in 2009. He’s a 2.5 ish guy heading into his 30s I think.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 11, 2011 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
FG WAR doesn't factor in catcher defence, though
if we assume he’s worth 10-15 runs above average with the glove (and he’s worth something like 5 runs/yr just with first-base pickoffs), then 4 WAR seems about right.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 12, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
Were you aware that
the Government spent less on the Ministry of Silly Walks than it did on National Defence?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I won't laugh.
His offensive production was better than ok, and his defense remains fantastic. If it can be done without shipwrecking the finances, I’m all for it. It all depends on what it means to lock him up, dollars/years, and I guess we now have to take into account how respected/loved/wanted he does/does not feel.
earthmovers
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 11, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
His offense was straight up ballin'
by purple_haze on Dec 11, 2011 3:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'm pretty sure
that Skip can be converted to catcher. Right?
by StillLostinNC on Dec 11, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
I want to see Yadi as a Cardinal for the foreseeable future
I mean, I wouldn’t give him a 10 year personal services contract….
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
Well,
then he can’t be sure you really want him.
VEB WINTER MEET-UP DISCUSSION
SIGN PRINCE FIELDER
by a fink on Dec 11, 2011 5:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Trade for wieters
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 11, 2011 3:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Given the fact that I think we're on the cusp of (potentially) discovering how valuable catcher defense is
and how Molina is usually at the top of all the catcher defense metrics, might be a good “buy low” opportunity on the guy. Although I don’t think he’ll age well.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
As good a comp as any, yea.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 11, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
Baseball-ref
Has Tim McCarver as Yadi’s closest comp at age 28. McCarver didn’t play more than 100 games after age 31. Yadi turns 30 next July. Bengie played over 100 games at age 35. Yadi is a much better player than Bengie though.
I don't think it will work that way.
Bengie for 2000 – 2010 averaged 120.8 games per season (leaving out 98/99 to not somewhat misrepresent his average, drops to 104.7 with them)
Jose Molina averaged 61.25 games per season, ’99 + 2001 – 2011.
Yadi is at 105.5 average from 2004 to present, but if you drop 2004 where he wasn’t full time yet, he’s at 127.5 games per year average, and his # of games per season has been going up, not down. If yadi winds up averaging 130 games per season within a year or two (if you exclude ‘04), he’ll be at a pretty high rate of wear and tear, even more so than what Bengie was exposed to.
WWCD? CDGAF.
Catcher usage is yet another thing
we don’t know about our new manager, and which I can’t wait to find out about.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 11, 2011 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
and Yadi is better than both of them ever were
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
I'd be shocked if he doesn't hit free agency
by infallibleopiniongenerator on Dec 11, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
Really?
Seems like a clear candidate for an extension… 4/40 would be the third biggest contract ever for a catcher after Mauer and Posada. Maybe he’ll carp about “respeto” too, but it seems like the salary inflation in baseball has mostly bypassed catchers plus he’s kind of a bad hitter and he will turn 30 this summer. He’d be foolish to turn away from a four year deal – he won’t get five years as a FA.
Sign Roy O
if i was MO
i’d really try hard to get it done.. especially with the respect thing floating around
because TLR
Exactly.
No way he retires a Cardinal. And how much you pay a 30-31 year old catcher?
by Forsch's2nohitters on Dec 11, 2011 7:49 PM EST up reply actions
10 million dollars per season
for 4 seasons. Less after that until he can’t play anymore.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
would Gordan Beckham be worth plucking from the White Sox
hasn’t done much but he’s still a young chap. Anything else we might try to get from the rebuilding White Sox?
by infallibleopiniongenerator on Dec 11, 2011 3:51 PM EST reply actions
Did they trade Sale yet?
I really like him. Guessing he’s still young enough to be part of the rebuilding, though.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
Yea, he’s under team control for 5 more years, I doubt he’s availablr
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 11, 2011 3:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
with Kolten Wong
potentially a year away I would be leery of such a deal unless it the cost is low. I think he is arb eligible now too.
McClellan + Cash?
White Sox laugh at that?
by infallibleopiniongenerator on Dec 11, 2011 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
Well, it's Kenny Williams
So anything is possible, but yea, they probably laugh in our faces
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 11, 2011 4:05 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Too bad Quentin is such a butcher in the OF
He might be a cheaper alternative to beltran
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 11, 2011 4:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Well written analytical article
even as an outside fan, I enjoyed reading this breakdown as to whether Beltran would fit in with the Cards.
With Wainwright coming back
Cardinals easily have the 3rd best rotation in the NL and probably pretty even with the Giants for #2, no?
i would think Insurance for waino wouldnt be a bad idea
that could be done internally…asuming he’ll just be him is a bit much
because TLR
scrabble?
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 11, 2011 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
we have Lynn and Scrabble
we’re covered.
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
we'll see
hard to know how Carp will respond this season, following the heavy innings load of this past season, plus being a year older. Also, it’s tough to know how Waino will respond stuff wise and endurance wise this season.
which will hurt the team, but it has to be done.
1) it will put more stress on the pen
2) it will mean more starts by replacement level (hopefully at least replacement level) starters
3) his contributions to a division race or deep playoff run may be in question.
I’m not saying having Waino back is a bad thing, because it isn’t, but I am saying that there may be some limiting factors that could have a negative impact on the club.
the worries with Carp IMHO should be more about injury (or re-injury), rather than just basic stamina
he’s got the body type of a guy who could throw 200+ innings every year. It’s not like he’s got shitty mechanics or throws extra hard. He’s athletic enough that as long as he’s intact, I think he can probably take the innings.
Having Wainwright back will take some pressure off him to eat as many innings as possible.
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
Uh
He obviously has shitty mechanics given the conflict of repeated massive injuries vs. the body type to be durable…
Not afraid to nitpick
not sure if serious
I mean, I could be wrong about his mechanics….he’s thrown 665 IP in the last three seasons and I assume it’s not because he’s gritty….
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
He's also blown out his elbow, shoulder, had nerve damage
That he’s able to come back from all this stuff is a testament to how good he is, but it’s pretty clear he has some mechanical problems as far as injury stuff goes.
Not afraid to nitpick
No
1. Phillies
2. Giants
3. Braves
4. Brewers
5. D-Backs
6. Cardinals
7. Marlins
I just don’t think Carp after 273 innings in 2011 and Waino after surgery are going to be as good as in years past… and Lohse and Westbrook are candidates for a complete collapse. Not that I think they will, but a 5 era out of either of those guys would not be surprising ta all.
Sign Roy O
I am worried about Carp especially due to wear and tear = injury possibility and how Waino will be
I’m not worried about Lohse and Westy with decent bullpen and a SS, Lohse looked quite well last year with bad bullpen and Theriot at SS
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 11, 2011 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
D-Backs and Brewers?
Hudson and maybe Kennedy might be 4 WAR guys, but Collmenter and Cahill are probably only gonna be 2 WAR guys and Saunders kinda sucks.
Greinke’s as good as anyone we have but I’m not sure Marcum, Narveson and Wolf are as good as our 3, 4 and 5.
FWIW I think you can probably just about put us, Brewers, Giants and maybe Braves somewhere in the race fighting for 2nd place behind the Phils.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 12, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
last year we won with lots of hitting and some spotty great pitching
this year we should won with awesome pitching and some timely hits
just to spite the rest of the mlb
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
Does anyone here think DeWitt already made up his mind mid-season on Albert leaving?
I mean, what would you expect Pujols to say after being offered 5 years after being offered 9 years last spring?
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
its not exactly the Org's fault that Pujols can't see sense
and refuses to negotiate because he’s been ‘disrespected’
Bursting into song.
All I'm saying is if your goal is to re-sign one of the greatest hitters in baseball (and St. Louis icon)
why not at least say “alright, the original deal’s on the table.” What you don’t do is take the previous deal and basically cut it in half. If I’m AP, I would have to say that I’d be pissed as well.
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Dec 11, 2011 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
Do you mind linking to it?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
After doing a quick review on the other thread, there are definitely some good points made.
My question, though, is whether the front office was really sincere about re-signing AP after last spring’s 9 year offer. My better sense tells me that they were not. And if this is true, you have to look at what everyone is currently saying through that prism to see what’s BS and what isn’t.
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Dec 11, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
If you are offering 26M per year or 8-9 years, you are serious
We need to not look through the prism of insanity that is a 10 year/254M deal. They were serious about putting forth a rational offer to a 32 year old coming off his “worst” season and qualitatively looking less incredible the past two years. Rational frequently isn’t enough in the FA market, but they played it right.
Not afraid to nitpick
he needed someone to charm his pants off
which is unfortunate because dewitt and mo are the wrong pair for that
I think they were..
According to Bernie, the Cardinals apparently approached Pujols and his agent about an extension, and the response then was 10 years (which would have paid him through age 40) and $275 million, and it was a hardline stance.
In January, the Cardinals made Pujols a contract extension offer of 9 years (which would have paid him thorough age 40) and about $200 million. It also supposedly included stock options that would have made him a part-owner. Pujols rejected that offer and shutdown negotiations for the season. Around the same time, the story was that Pujols wanted 10 years instead of 9 (which would have paid him through age 41) and he wanted an AAV that was higher than his friend A-Rod’s.
Which brings us to the Winter Meetings, when the Cardinals supposedly offered him a 5-year deal (which would have paid him through age 36) with a AAV of $26 million or so. What we don’t know was how it was presented to him (we can do this to bring up the money to what you want), whether they also offered the January deal as a option, or what demands Pujols and his agent left them in January, which led them to this new offer. We only have Pujols’ side of the story.
But even with that side, what I see is a team trying to make it’s best player happy while also keeping the rest of the team’s future competitiveness in mind, but a player who isn’t happy until his team gives him exactly what he wants. Which makes me unsympathetic toward Albert Pujols’ “distress.” The Cardinals, by his own word, eventually did offer him 10 guaranteed years. It was his decision to walk away from that.
by Forsch31 on Dec 11, 2011 5:08 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
To Clarify...
When the Cardinals originally approached Pujols about a contract extension, it was two years ago, about a year before the Cardinals’ January offer.
After the worst season of his career, AND one year older
I don’t see why Albert should be shocked that we didn’t give him the same offer we did the previous year.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 12, 2011 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
maybe
part of what bothers me is that Pujols sobbed about how stressful this season was because he was worried about upcoming FA. Just another excuse IMO, considering he’s the one who didn’t want to discuss an extension during the season.
I really don't understand how you can take that as them not trying.
You do not offer someone $130m without being serious about it. Don’t think of it as them just offering “5 years”, understand the Pujols God Complex that they were trying to match — he wanted a record / max length contract and record AAV, the combination of the two the Cardinals could never afford. So the first time they made an offer, they went 9 years and Pujols laughed at them for the lower AAV. So the next time they made an offer, they went 5 years, but at a rate that would have giving him a record-setting AAV ($0.5 mil above A-Rod, I think?).
They tried max-length with slightly lower AAV, and they tried high AAV with less years.
WWCD? CDGAF.
by JStymie on Dec 11, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
if he already made up his mind he wanted abert t leave,
offering him a $220MM contract is a strange way of expressing it
nope
the way Mozeliak just up and left the winter meetings without telling anybody indicates to me the Cards were already planning the 2012 season around Pujols signing with the team.
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
I don't know about planning the whole season
But it definitely shocked him. I think he wanted to get out of there not just because of the media frenzy that was sure to ensue but also just because he was emotional about it.
My feeling is that Pujols is the one who didn’t negotiate much in good faith and never really worked with the team in reaching an equitable solution. Maybe that’s completely wrong and my opinion is colored by my emotions about Pujols leaving the team, but that’s how its looking to me.
Guess is
Org thought that they would have a legit shot to counter after 1st contract submission. Pujols was pissed, disrespected, whatever you want to call it and was done. Nothing the org could have done after that first submission. Pujols’ mind was made up that the org didn’t want him for “long term.” That’s what I think.
by Forsch's2nohitters on Dec 11, 2011 7:57 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe long before that. .. .Hard to believe that if Dewill truly wanted to sign him long term, he could/would have.
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
ahahaha
azru has me rolling in laughter at his #pujolscrieswhen tweets
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
they are pretty good
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 11, 2011 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
Pujols cries when the emergency broadcast system interrupts
#Idonthavetwitter
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
Pujols cries when life gives him lemonade
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
there were three little mice that fell into a pitcher of milk
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 11, 2011 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
pujolscrieswhen the angels inform him that they're
Going to use his actual weight in the team player guide.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 11, 2011 5:18 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Pujols cries when he plays the Cards and see's red blazers all about, remembers the history and the fans and the love
And cries
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 11, 2011 5:23 PM EST up reply actions
pujolscrieswhen news from a southern california
Team that’s not even playing this year preempts coverage of his arrival.
i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 11, 2011 5:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Repost from last night
I was still sorta drunk when I did this though, so let me know if you find any errors
Assuming that Furcal gets a .324 wOBA and league average wOBA is .316 like last year and gets 600 PA and is an average fielder
(.324 – .316)/1.15 * 600 = 4.17 wRAA
0 UZR
+7.5 runs in positional adjustment
+20 runs replacement
That’s a 3.17 WAR player.
He could be worth his contract (1.55 WAR) by only getting 297 PA at his .324 wOBA and average fielding
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
by mysterui on Dec 11, 2011 4:16 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
As far as being a hard sell...
“do you want to play every day, or do you want to go to the playoffs?”
Beltran has been a premier player, and only has been to the postseason twice. Going to a championship team may help get over the not starting everyday thing.
Grit != flat out sucking.
I thought he made it more than once with the Mets
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Dec 11, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
Baseball reference has only PAs for 04 and 06
if he made it another time, he didn’t get to play in any games.
Grit != flat out sucking.
maybe not
I guess the Mets only had the one year
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Dec 11, 2011 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
Why wouldn't he play everyday that he's healthy?
are you really going to sit a healthy Carlos Beltran for Jon Jay?
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 12, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
Julio Franco may just have the weirdest career trajectory I've ever seen.
First of all, he’s one year younger than my dad which is mind-blowing. Secondly, he was worth -0.2 fWAR in 1992 when he was 34. When he was 46, he provided 1.5 fWAR. What the actual fuck?
Also, he has a fWAR greater than some Hall of Famers. Be amazed by his page.
If we sign Carlos Beltran
I’m gonna have to stop calling him “Ricky from My So Called Life.” It always gets a laugh out of my wife when I call him that.
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
My brain says
that Beltran at anywhere between 2/20 and 2/28 is a good move for the team to be making.
My heart keeps on replaying that Wainwright curveball, though, and asks “Him?!”
Go watch some highlights from the 2004 NLCS.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 11, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Some good news
The Rams didn’t lose today! Granted, they are playing tomorrow night, but still. They didn’t lose today!
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 11, 2011 4:51 PM EST reply actions
I forgot the Rams were playing on MNF
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
cries
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Dec 11, 2011 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
it's just so, so, so, so great.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 11, 2011 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
I'm imagining the scheduling meeting went like this
The two teams don’t like each other and played for the NFC West title in their last game last season. The division is still meh and so this game may actually matter. Let’s ignore the fact that they will have tougher schedules this year and that that game was REALLY BORING and line em up again!
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 11, 2011 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
thanks for reminding me about that
that game really was awful
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
Yup
I can only watch Bradford throw bubble screens to Danny Amendola on 3rd and 12 so many times.
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 11, 2011 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
goddammit
Spagnuolo’s teams are so boring to watch even when they do win….
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
Bad and Boring: The Spagnuolo Era, 2009-2011 (I hope)
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 11, 2011 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
Also Bad and Boring: The Linehan Era, 2006-2008
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
A Small Oasis of Excitement in a Desert of Shit: The Rams in St. Louis (1995-)
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 11, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
Wonder how low the ratings can go?
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
In a manner of speaking
But they’re probably going to be the #2/#3 pick regardless, which they’ll undoubtedly blow unless they make some HUGE changes in the front office. Probably take an overrated lineman and then give him no reasonable coaching and watch him fail. I’m not pessimistic or anything.
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 11, 2011 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
not crazy about the furcal signing
not sold on beltan, either. would rather wait and spend the money elsewhere
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
Did you see my post on Furcal like 3 posts up?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I did and I am quite pleased with the Furc sign-age
Anyone have gif or jpg of Rockstar pose upon winning 11’ in 11’?
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 11, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
got sidetracked by something else
just got back. saw your post. nice number crunching.
still not crazy about the furcal signing.
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
wait?
you can’t make signing midseason. why let the best players get signed by other teams?
11!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2011 3:23 AM EST up reply actions
i think i'm behind the times
when did mo give albert a 5-year offer? all i ever heard from the winter meetings was that he was choosing between a few 10-year offers.
SIGN ARAMIS RAMIREZ!!!!!!!?
really?
mo should’ve known albert wouldn’t go for that. why even bother with a 5-year deal if you want him for the rest of his career?
SIGN ARAMIS RAMIREZ!!!!!!!?
by EinFesteBusch on Dec 11, 2011 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
Because he didn't really want Albert for the rest of his career
I wouldn’t want to be an NL team paying some guy to be an expensive pinch hitter at the age of 39 b/c he can’t walk.
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 11, 2011 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
That was a horrible sentence
"...Or we could make L.A.N.C.E. into a recursive acronym, like, 'Lance: Adam Needs Cartilage from your Elbow." -- Quote by our very own DanUpBaby
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 11, 2011 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
yes, at 10 yrs
AL teams are a better bet to get their money’s worth with apu
TLR is gone, long live the king
because it was a marked increase in AAV in exchange for fewer years
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
It's really startin too piss me off
That we have all these draft picks, and won’t be able to spend a lot on them due to the new rules….why can’t it start next draft
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 11, 2011 5:53 PM EST via mobile reply actions
but it's the same for all teams,
so in principle the players will actually get picked in the order of their talent. i guess it remains to be seen how this affects players who might go back to school, but all the leverage of their agents is gone now.
Cause the cards were going to go overslot on five guys? Wasn't going to happen.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 11, 2011 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
In the absence of another big free agent,
we do have like $10-15M in addition to the draft spending already earmarked.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
OT. Tebow 3/16, 45 yds, INT
wow…
When the Cardinals won the World Series, Ryan Theriot was batting lead-off.
Bilingual Twitter
Tebow 12 for his last 14 with a TD pass.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
Coming into today he had a QB rating of 107.8 in the 4th QTR
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
Everyone keeps going to the prevent for some reason when he is simply not capable of beating a base defense
Not afraid to nitpick
Currently in the prevent offense
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
Still surreal that in a span of 1.5 months, we won the World Series (in the manner that we did)
Lost TLR, lost Luhnow, and lost Pujols
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
There's been no lacking in the drama department, that's for sure
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Dec 11, 2011 6:43 PM EST up reply actions
i just hope the Cards defend their title
much much better than they did during the 07 season, at least we wont have to worry about Kip Wells being on the team
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Dec 11, 2011 6:51 PM EST up reply actions
What are you talking about?
The 07 season never happened, remember?
When the Cardinals won the World Series, Ryan Theriot was batting lead-off.
Bilingual Twitter
I remember terrible pitching from Reyes and Wells. Thats about it.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
And the Spiezio flameout
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Dec 11, 2011 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
I remember Braden Looper being our #2 starter.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 12, 2011 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
Wasn't there a lockout that year?
Just like the lockout before the 2004 World Series?
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Dec 11, 2011 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
Actually,
players were shipped out to Iraq to fight the war.
When the Cardinals won the World Series, Ryan Theriot was batting lead-off.
Bilingual Twitter
I'm happy about losing TLR
Sad about losing Luhnow (especially considering that we have 5 top 100 draft picks this year), and sad about losing Pujols, but happy that we now get to have Furcal and Beltran.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
6 of top 100, no?
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
imgur
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Thanks rui
Almost asked you directly
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 11, 2011 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
Going through my imgur, found this gif I made lolololol
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
by mysterui on Dec 11, 2011 6:35 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
That's Kozma, not Greene
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
oh, wow, really?
The goatee threw me off. Nice gif
by hr on Dec 11, 2011 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
okay than photoshop kozma's face onto abe
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
wait, nevermind
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
gonna need a fumble or INT
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
aww shit...I guess not.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 6:55 PM EST up reply actions
Or complete incompetence by Marion Barber.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
freakin amazing
I’m suckered in
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 6:59 PM EST up reply actions
Tebow > Barber
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
Tebow>Barber>Tebow
VEB WINTER MEET-UP DISCUSSION
SIGN PRINCE FIELDER
by a fink on Dec 11, 2011 7:03 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
It's Denver
Ball go far.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
HFS, Tebow/Broncos!
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:02 PM EST reply actions
Run out of bounds to stop the clock
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
Went out of bounds with a chance to run the clock down.
VEB WINTER MEET-UP DISCUSSION
SIGN PRINCE FIELDER
2:00 left, Broncos have no timeouts
He runs out of bounds. They probably wouldn’t have gotten the ball back, or if they did it’d have been like 10 seconds. Seriously one of the single dumbest plays I’ve seen in football at any level.
Not afraid to nitpick
Though I wonder who in the Chicago booth
Thought it wise to run out wide?
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
Good ol' Mike Martz?
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, right.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
This is pretty surreal, but I would buy into the Broncos more if they scored more than 10 points and didn't put themselves in this position
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
yeah, they're always ragging on Tebow's throwing skills
more often that not, sure seems like he hits his receivers in the hands with pretty good frequency
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Dec 11, 2011 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
If this crazy offense ends up working, good for them
But the crazy Dolphins offense only worked so long. I’m also of the opinion that Tebow is a bit of an attention whore, which makes me kinda dislike him
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Dec 11, 2011 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
The offense isn't working
They’ve scored 20 offensive points twice in 8 games.
Not afraid to nitpick
right
that’s my opinion. They keep scoring late, but they wouldn’t need late drives and lucky breaks if the offense would score earlier
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Dec 11, 2011 7:13 PM EST up reply actions
That isn't how John Fox works he would rather trade punts than risk a TO
when your whole offense has been working together for about two months why do anything risky if you don’t need to. DId you watch the NE vs CAR Superbowl? neither team would risk anything just a whole bunch of punts untill the last quarter.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
He basically never hits anyone in stride
Some of the drops are bad yeah, but when you’re constantly throwing the ball behind people or near the ground you’re gonna have more drops than usual.
Not afraid to nitpick
They scored 38 in oakland and 35 in minny last week.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
So..
Tebow>Tebow?
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:06 PM EST reply actions
Whats this I hear about Fielder signing with the Cubs..
by Tuning in from Korea on Dec 11, 2011 7:07 PM EST reply actions
lololol?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
Wow Barber... you just Tebow'd all over your team
When the Cardinals won the World Series, Ryan Theriot was batting lead-off.
Bilingual Twitter
wow
5:21pm: According to a source familiar with the case, Braun’s original test for performance-enhancing drugs was “insanely high, the highest ever for anyone who has ever taken a test, twice the level of the highest test ever taken,” writes Teri Thompson of the New York Daily News.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:10 PM EST reply actions
How hard would it be for some malicious character to spike an athlete's cheerios?
Not saying that’s what happened here, but I would worry about that if I were a player.
Sign Roy O
who knows what happened
but there are several types of testosterone and one can be in the normal range, and others not
don’t know if synthetic leaves your system faster than natural, but it obviously mixes with natural testosterone, so if there was enough to detect by carbon isotopes, it was a lot
i suspect end of the season, worn down, need a lift
take a shot and get your energy back for a few days
might seem worth the risk to some
TLR is gone, long live the king
How can a lab error explain synthetic stuff in a human body?
by Forsch's2nohitters on Dec 11, 2011 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
Severely doubtful
The only plausible thing that would get Braun off the hook would be a tampered sample, but even that is so ridiculous that Braun has no shot of that working.
Not afraid to nitpick
might have missed his target level is all
bad decision, overdose, incorrect label. ???
TLR is gone, long live the king
TEBOW WITH THE FUMBLE RECOVERY!
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
I'll be honest.
This is the first time I’ve seen Tebow throw. He’s God awful
When the Cardinals won the World Series, Ryan Theriot was batting lead-off.
Bilingual Twitter
Is this the craziest thing anyone has ever seen in the NFL?
The 1999 Rams topped my list prior to Tebow.
Sign Roy O
Stick a fork in this game
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Dec 11, 2011 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
i can't ever remember seeing anything like this.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
how about the '11 Cardinals?
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Dec 11, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
well in handegg anyway.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:21 PM EST up reply actions
the wildcat dolphins?
I still expect the Broncos to come down. I can see them making the playoffs, but not beating really good teams with capable offenses and defenses.
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Dec 11, 2011 7:17 PM EST up reply actions
This is crazier than the Wildcat Dolphins and Vince Young's rookie year combined
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
Also, Vince Young is still pissed that Tebow gets to run the spread option and he didn't
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
I'd love to see the Steelers linebackers/Polamalu get a crack at Tebow
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Dec 11, 2011 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
i think its either injuries have slowed him down
or teams are starting to figure him out
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Dec 11, 2011 7:56 PM EST up reply actions
the only reason they'd make the playoffs is cause their division is so awful
The Cardinals and their fans were privileged to get the best of Pujols. It truly was an honor. And now the Cardinals and their fans don't have to worry about paying for the worst of Pujols.--Miklasz
It's pretty strange
I don’t know that I’ve ever seen something so unsustainable happen for this long in sports.
Not afraid to nitpick
the 1999 rams were crazy for?
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 11, 2011 7:25 PM EST up reply actions
Kurt Warner coming out of nowhere
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:25 PM EST up reply actions
coming from a Hi-Vee in Iowa to MVP and Super Bowl champ
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Dec 11, 2011 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
Even apart from Warner
the Rams were just horrifically bad in the years leading up to ’99. And at one point (I think before the ’98 season), there was nearly a full-scale player revolt against Dick Vermeil. Things were U.G.L.Y.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 11, 2011 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
it would basically be like if we win the Super Bowl next year
with whoever the hell that guy is that is starting tomorrow night.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly.
Even thought the 2011 Cardinal playoff run was unforgettably fun, no way I’ll ever enjoy a full sports season as much fun as the ’99 Rams. Just a magic carpet ride from start to finish.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 11, 2011 7:52 PM EST up reply actions
Broncos win. Barber is a complete moron
When the Cardinals won the World Series, Ryan Theriot was batting lead-off.
Bilingual Twitter
HFS, Tebows win again
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:20 PM EST reply actions
Cap'n Comeback!
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Dec 11, 2011 7:21 PM EST up reply actions
I hope they make the playoffs so I can have some rooting interest in the first week of the playoffs when the Packers are on a bye.
I haven’t rooted against a team or player this much in the NFL since the 90’s Cowboys.
VEB WINTER MEET-UP DISCUSSION
SIGN PRINCE FIELDER
In this case...
the media is completely justified in going apeshit…. I’ve never seen any like this before in sports. Maybe the Miracle Mets. I wasn’t around for that though…
Sign Roy O
What about the 2011 St. Louis Cardinals?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
If the Pirates had won the 2011 WS powered by late season acquisitions Ryan Ludwick and Derrick Lee...
that would’ve been Tebow-esque.
Sign Roy O
2006 Cardinals
led by Jeff Weaver and Ronnie Belliard…
SIGN ARAMIS RAMIREZ!!!!!!!?
by EinFesteBusch on Dec 12, 2011 12:59 AM EST up reply actions
The Broncos offense has gotten outscored 162-155 in these 8 games
But it’s not the defense causing wins.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 11, 2011 7:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah but how much of that was the lopsided game against Detroit?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Correct me if I'm wrong, but
Tebow now 7-1 as a starter with all 7 wins featuring a 4th QTR comeback.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:21 PM EST reply actions
sounds right
tebow could win a super bowl 5 times in the next 7 years but if his numbers don’t meet the right sabermetrics criteria, he’s a sucky quarterback.
now, let the bashing begin…
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
nice
forgot about him. two super bowl rings.
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
Check out his stats.
Can’t tell if it was luck or he just played for a shit ton of crappy teams so his numbers were horrible. But hard to argue with the hardware.
by Forsch's2nohitters on Dec 11, 2011 8:51 PM EST up reply actions
sometimes it's just about not f**king things up too much
those raiders teams had great defense. and the second winner had marcus allen. i think plunkett probably did a good job of keeping his team in games when it counted. someone like favre, he puts up great numbers but there’s always the danger he will make a really dumb decision when it counts most
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
Redskins fan. I know all about Allen and that Super Bowl.
by Forsch's2nohitters on Dec 11, 2011 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
skins fan too
that was a tough loss. got steamrolled that game.
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
Ryan Howard has two rings!
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
one ring, yes?
2009? and is comparing a baseball 1B to a football QB really a good analogy?
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
If they're both overrated because of things that their teammates have done, then yes.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
except a QB is the single most important player on the field
he has the ball every offensive play. the 1B comes to bat 4 times a game. that’s my point
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
i love tennis
i hope roger’s recent hot streak continues. and that novak goes back to being No. 3 or 4. and that big john isner cracks the top 10. and that murray breaks through with a major
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
Okay so how does going 3-17 as the most important player,
and then getting bailed out, make you a good player?
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
By going 18-24 from the 4th quarter on?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
2009 and
2011. Right? Phils won this year, I believe.
by StillLostinNC on Dec 11, 2011 9:17 PM EST up reply actions
phils won in 2011?
what was that? the pennsylvania state championship?
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
No the World Series.
I distinctly remember FESPN saying something about the Phils winning the World Series….
by StillLostinNC on Dec 11, 2011 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
The Broncos offense has been outscored by opposing offenses since he became the starter
It doesn’t take a genius “saber” person to understand that that formula ain’t gonna continue to “work”.
Not afraid to nitpick
and if it does
you will no doubt admit you were wrong, yes?
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
This is a terrible argument.
Literally the epitome of the dick in a toaster fallacy. You are scoring less than your opponent. You will lose games if you do that.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
re-read the threads
as mentioned above, the Broncos offense has been outscored since he became the starter. and yet the broncos are 7-1 over that time. this is not really an argument. this is a fact.
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
Yes, they are facts.
But, as a Broncos fan, even I recognize that having the other team’s offense outscore your offense is not a formula for success in the NFL.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
apparently it has been 7 out of 8 games
that’s all i’m saying. sometimes sports doesn’t make sense. just once, i wish someone here would admit that. it can’t all be quantified. if it could, the best statistical team would win every year.
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
Everybody agrees that not everything can be quantified
This, however, is something that can be. You’re looking at an incredibly small sample size right now, do you agree?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
half an NFL season
which, to be certain, is nothing to build a thesis around, but nothing to sneeze at, either.
but my main point is this: i am an agnostic when it comes to Tebow. I don’t know whether he has some kind of intangible genius when it comes to winning or whether he’s the luckiest bastard who ever lived.
but regardless of his stats, his mechanics, or any of that, i can’t help being impressed by his success. do i think he will become an all-time great? no. do i know he won’t? no.
all i know, really, is my name and my wife’s name. and even her i can’t be 100% certain about.
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
ass an addendum...
…i’m not really looking at tebow in terms of a career, but only in terms of a season. maybe this is one of those freak years when denver catches lightning in a bottle. maybe tebow is the right man for the job this season. maybe they make the playoffs and make a run despite the fact that statisically they shouldn’t even be in the picture. maybe he avoids doing the bad things that will let the defense and special teams win.
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
You're making this way more complicated than it needs to be
This isn’t even some crazy esoteric formula. Their offense sucks at scoring points, which is the traditional measure by which offenses get measured. Pair that with a killer defense and a series of inexplicable plays/decisions by opposing teams, they’ve won some games they probably shouldn’t have. It’s pretty easy to sort out the causation here.
Not afraid to nitpick
i'm not making it complicated
in fact, i don’t think i’ve though about tim tebow 5 times the whole season, or my whole life.
i’m just reacting to people who seem to froth at the mouth about him every waking moment.
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
Ah yes, the old "I don't really care i am just arguing because you care" argument.
You’re touching all the fallacious bases with this one.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
know what i love?
i love the fact that you keep following me around on this thread, how you just show up out of nowhere without any prompting.
have we met before or something? did we trade zingers in some previous blog, and you’re still holding a grudge?
because seriously, you keep telling me what i’m thinking and you just couldn’t be more wrong about any of it.
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
I don't know you,
but I am exceedingly experienced with your type. “I’m just asking questions. Numbers aren’t everything. You can’t quantify Tebow. I don’t really care I just think you’re wrong.” etc.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
and i know your type
you will spend hours using your precious numbers to bash players, coaches, managers, fans, media, etc. but if someone questions you, you fall apart like a cheap rug. in other words, you can dish it out, but you can’t take it.
now that we know each other, go away, ok?
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
At what point am I falling apart here?
You’re the one who is reaching for less and less credible arguments until you finally hit “I don’t care” and started attacking me personally.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
Here
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/kerry_byrne/11/29/tim.tebow/index.html
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Three things:
1. The “career” numbers are incredibly SSS.
2. Yes, he’s outplaying his QB counterparts. His QB counterparts are crummy themselves, and are usually facing a more difficult defense than Tebow.
3. Tebow is benefiting from a novelty factor. Teams haven’t yet figured out how to defend him and the unique approach the Broncos are running out there.
He’s obviously a talented guy, and he’s exciting to watch. But I’m still very bearish on his long-term outlook at the position.
VEB WINTER MEET-UP DISCUSSION
SIGN PRINCE FIELDER
I think you are letting your personal dislike
for him color your judgement, but it is you right to do so.
The fact that he finally threw a second pic on an amazing play by Tillman in his 8th start, ought to give anyone pause on declaring him a lost cause long term.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
You may be right. I certainly don't like him, but I don't think I'm
letting that affect my judgement. There are plenty of athletes that I dislike more than him who I think are good players. Time will tell, though.
VEB WINTER MEET-UP DISCUSSION
SIGN PRINCE FIELDER
could you at least have the decency...
…to explain the dick in the toaster joke? for the snark-challenged among us?
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
Let’s think of it this way: say that, one day, I was sitting in my kitchen, having some toast, and it suddenly occurred to me that I have never put my penis into a toaster. “I wonder what that’s like?”, I ask myself aloud. So, deciding that this is just something I have to do, I proceed to wander over to the toaster and just pop it right in there. Further curious, I then push down the lever. Well, of course, I then end up with horrific burns to my genitals.
So, what do I do? Well, being in no shape to put on pants to drive myself to the hospital, I call the paramedics, and they show up in no time. Among the paramedics is a gorgeous young woman, who proceeds to begin ministering to my, er, injuries. Emboldened by the fact that we’re already to about third base (Actually, I have no idea how the base system works on a man. Anyone know?), I relax, and am able not only to make witty, intelligent conversation, but I have absolutely no fear in asking this young woman out. Impressed by my wit, confidence, and the sheer amount of scar tissue I’m going to end up with- if you know what I mean- she accepts my invitation. We go out on a date, and then another, and another, and before you know it, we’re happily married for twenty years.
Now, given the above scenario, there are two ways of looking at it. You could say, “Wow, Aaron. You really lucked out on that one! Just imagine, none of this great fortune would have happened if you hadn’t decided to Chris Duncan that toaster! I mean, yeah, it was still dumb, and you lost almost all feeling in your genitals, but look at how great life is otherwise!” Or, you could say, “Wow, Aaron. You’re brilliant! I wish I were smart enough to try and fuck a toaster!”
Not afraid to nitpick
*some how VEB is actually only the 3rd result on google for "dick in a toaster"
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 11, 2011 10:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
what kind of toaster?
2 slice or 4 slice? can it accomodate bagels as well? are we talking 600 watts or 1,200 watts? what kind of heat settings?
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
On the Internet,
everyone has a 4 slice bagel toaster.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 11, 2011 10:42 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
and my only regret
is that i have but one dick, to stick into that 4 slice bagel toaster.
"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?
it's weird that in that article RB wants to trade Ankiel, Craig, and Jay for Phil Hughes
Sign Yoennis Céspedes?
by tehzachatak on Dec 12, 2011 12:57 AM EST up reply actions
heh
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 1:04 AM EST up reply actions
6 of 8 games
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
beltran salary.....
i know this number has been used a lot, but where does %5m/WAR come from
jrey signed for 3m/fWAR
beltre is 3.2/fWAR
braun averages out to 2M/fWAR
cabrera is at ~3M/ per
some guys, like beltran, that missed a lot of time have >5M/fwar, but it doesn’t seem to be the norm and not what we should be offering
albert got about $5m/fwar, but that seems very unusual
in fact what the cards offered is a higher than average $/fWAR
angles are crazy, based on baseball metrics
TLR is gone, long live the king
seems way off, or at least it seems that low WAR players are disproportionally expensive
$M/fWAR based on average fWAR over last 3 years for position players w/o big hunks of DL time
texeira, 5.2
agonzo, 3.7
werth, 4.15
holliday, 3
tulo, 2.6
m cabrera, 3
braun, 2
utley, 2
bautista, 2.3
cano, 2.7
jrey, 2.9
beltre, 3.2
kemp, 4.3
TLR is gone, long live the king
But you're only using their production during the early part of their contracts
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Average WAR the past 3 years is going to be biased high
You need to regress to league average and account for aging.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
so, the implication is that the marlins expect jrey
to be worth less fWAR going forward?
or jrey really screwed up in signing for so little?
how does this contract get to $5m/fWAR?
my guess is no one expects that to happen
and $/fWAR is a geometric progression
TLR is gone, long live the king
wait are you not accounting for aging going forward in the contract?
Are you sereiously?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
what i am saying is, i don't expect, and neither do the marlins
that he will decline to 1.8 fWAR by the end of the contract? that’s what it would take for him to be at $5m/fWAR in the last year. in short to go from 3 per to 5 per is way more than the aging projections predict for players in this age range.
TLR is gone, long live the king
Yes, he will decline heavily from age 28 to age 35
Are you insane?
What are you projecting his starter point as?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 11:50 PM EST up reply actions
...and 3.7 the previous TWO years + regression to the mean means he projects closer to 5-5.5 injury free
Not afraid to nitpick
And that's very optimistic IMO
I’d say 4.5 WAR is a good projection.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
A simple aging curve of 5.5, 5, 4.5, 4, 3.5, 3 gets you 25.5 WAR -> $4.15M/WAR
And realistically, he’s very much likely to have at least one hobbled season based on his history.
Not afraid to nitpick
aging in that age range is not 10%/yr
i don’t see it
i see a man who did 6.2f WAR last ear sign for 6/106
would be interesting to see what the marlins and reyes camp argued for his performance down the road
i guess it could be coincidence, but i looked at contracts for 30 highly paid, high fWAR players signed in their 20’s on multiyear deals.
the average for these contracts is <3M/fWAR
for those signed in their 30’s, the average is much higher
good luck arte
TLR is gone, long live the king
dude, seriously
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
This is just not how it works, players get worse from 29-35, a LOT worse
But nonetheless, good luck Arte is accurate.
Not afraid to nitpick
that would be fascinating.
would be interesting to see what the marlins and reyes camp argued for his performance down the road
Anyway, a recent analysis (presented without proof, so make of it what you will) found that elite players- not “all players”, but a subset based on the elites- declined at 0.37 War/yr, on offense, alone, mainly based on lost playing time.
Defense also clearly declines with age, especially for shortstops. If offensive performance declines with age based on lost playing time, you should expect defense to decline similarly, on top of the expected actual decline in performance… half a win, per year, seems emininently reasonable, if not conservative.
I still think that Reyes will end up being a good deal, while Pujols will be an epic fail, but I don’t have a way to back it up.
"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?
Sox want to shed salary...
Youkilis for one of Carp/Freese/Cox? He’s owed $12 million this year with a $13 million option for 2013. Good contract. Dude can absolutely rake. This could be a plan B if Beltran doesn’t happen.
Sign Roy O
From what I've read they don't want to....
go past the luxury tax and they need a couple pitchers and maybe an outfielder. We can’t really help them with that, but we can take salary so they can sign Edwin Jackson…
Sign Roy O
Why is everyone so eager to ditch Freese?
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:27 PM EST up reply actions
His production-to-date has been the result of a very high BABIP
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
he's always had a high BABIP
even in the minors.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
Most major league hitters have high BABIPs in the minors
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
His BABIP has gone up in the majors.
Freese continuing to have a BABIP greater than .360 is about as likely as Tebow winning the superbowl.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
I know!
Man, it’s a rough town. Talk about a hard group to please!
Ad Maiorem Tortius Gloriam
by peppermartin on Dec 11, 2011 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
indeed
i would say based on his postseason production, freese deserves a chance to prove his worth over the long haul. i’d love to see him play a full season so we can better gauge his productivity
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
If we can sell him for someone we know to be productive at a level that we are hoping Freese will reach, why not?
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
because that's how i feel?
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
Then what are your grounds for dismissing the feeling of others that he is a player that should be looked at as a trade chip?
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
I think Freese + Beltran is better than Youk
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 10:45 PM EST up reply actions
Freese continues to scare the crap out of me, between health and sustainability issues.
In any case it would still be dumb to buy a 3B since our two best positional prospects are 3Bs.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
Freese is money when he's healthy though
I love his approach. Carp’s gonna be first to replace him when he gets injured. Fits MO’s mo.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah. This is all pretty much correct.
I wouldn’t mind getting a more extended look at Carp this season and I don’t just mean his junk.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
O..O
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 12, 2011 1:55 AM EST up reply actions
Surely you don't
think playoffs 2011 Freese is the REAL Freese?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 11, 2011 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
what was wrong with 2011 regular season Freese?
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:31 PM EST up reply actions
He had ankles
When the Cardinals won the World Series, Ryan Theriot was batting lead-off.
Bilingual Twitter
thats a positive, right?
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
It would be better
if he had bionic pieces of metal in the place where ankles should be
When the Cardinals won the World Series, Ryan Theriot was batting lead-off.
Bilingual Twitter
was this really much of an issue last year?
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
didn't seem to bother him as he flew around the bases
in the 9th inning of game 6 when he hit that triple.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
i don't remember any ankle issues
he had a broken hand and a concussion but ankles were intact
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
Tread softly, for you tread on my memes.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
Actually the broken hand gave him
enough time off to give his ankles a chance to get healthy.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 11, 2011 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
and the broken hand is hardly his fault
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 12, 2011 1:57 AM EST up reply actions
I would do that in a heartbeat.
But I don’t think the Sox would.
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Dec 11, 2011 7:28 PM EST up reply actions
ugh
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
Better yet, why not just sign Beltran?
and not give up anything from our roster? He doesn’t even cost a draft pick
yeah, this
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
Youk is a better hitter and costs less...
true he can’t cover CF. Would the team miss Freese at all? Youk takes third for 1-2 years then turns it over to either Carp or Cox. I can’t see how we ever miss Freese either in the short term or long term.
Sign Roy O
depends on what you mean my "costs"
not being able to play center and losing a good player a certainly costs in my book
their cost is about the same except we have to give up players to get Youk
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
The production from Beltran and Freese would exceed that of Youkilis and our current OF.
When the Cardinals won the World Series, Ryan Theriot was batting lead-off.
Bilingual Twitter
youk is due 2 years and 25 million...granted one year is an option, but why would you not pick it up?
That is pretty much the exact same contract Beltran will require.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:42 PM EST up reply actions
He could miss the season and never play again...
or he could just suck. The guy has bursitis in his hip, he tore a muscle in his thumb in 2010, he went on the disabled list for a bad back last August, and he just underwent surgery for a sports hernia.
Obviously this argues against acquiring him, but then Freese and Beltran aren’t in much better shape.
Sign Roy O
only problem Freese had last year was getting hit by a pitch.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:53 PM EST up reply actions
and how did he end it?
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:57 PM EST up reply actions
La Russa seemed to abandon it at some point...
but the fact that a seemingly healthy, or as healthy as he’ll ever get, Freese needs to rest so much is a huge red flag.
Sign Roy O
it was his first season after surgery.
This is not an ongoing thing.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
i saw plenty of reports saying that he essentially had 50-year-old ankles
and would never be able to play every day again
I saw plenty of reports that say you suck
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 8:14 PM EST up reply actions
also, aside from any Youk/Beltran debate,
There is zero chance we replace Freese. None. Not this offseason anyway.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah I know....
but if we’re throwing icons overboard in the name of good business sense why not clear them all out?
Sign Roy O
Well, isn't Skip kind of the
blue-collar icon of the Cardinals, in a blue-collar town? Shit, another year again for him.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 11, 2011 8:03 PM EST up reply actions
probably...
I just don’t see how he makes any sense for this team anymore.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 8:06 PM EST up reply actions
not if Mo wants to live
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 8:02 PM EST up reply actions
Derek Bell?
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Dec 11, 2011 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
Yunieksy Betancourt?
When the Cardinals won the World Series, Ryan Theriot was batting lead-off.
Bilingual Twitter
our 2013 1st baseman
wow...
a lightbulb factory for minimum wage?
I’ll bet you if he contacted Goldman Sachs and offered them 20% of his lifetime earnings in return for $500K they would take him up on it.
Sign Roy O
So lifting crates of light
bulbs can’t be very hard. If he’s trying to get in shape shouldn’t he be working in a cat litter or auto parts warehouse?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 11, 2011 8:02 PM EST up reply actions
What weighs more
a ton of lightbulbs or a ton of kitty litter?
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 12, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
Braun has hired an attorney, per Jerry Crasnick
@jcrasnick:
Ryan Braun’s lawyer, David Cornwell, has previously represented Gilbert Arenas, Reggie Bush & Randy Moss, among others. #Brewers
In a 2008 Washington Post story, Cornwell compared himself to Winston Wolfe character ("The Cleaner) from movie "Pulp Fiction.’’
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Harvey Keitel!
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Rui knows movies you guys!
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 7:56 PM EST up reply actions
Who would be my choice
to play TLR in a movie. So how many steps is Braun away from Kevin Bacon now?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 11, 2011 7:57 PM EST up reply actions
Not a big Simpsons fan,
But always like it when they have an episode with grown up Bart
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 8:04 PM EST reply actions
your comment was quite blasphemous up until that asterisk
my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red
Hindsight: I'm so glad we won the World Series.
Yeah, obviously. But more!
There isn’t any thought that the Cardinals hadn’t done enough for Albert, that they weren’t going in a direction he cared for and that the atmosphere was staling. It wasn’t a disappointing season that fans could point to as a bad sign.
There doesn’t need to be any second-guessing and “what ifs”
Being the reigning champions gave Mo a lot of leeway, credibility, and instant respect. He went in to “win now” and dang it, we won then.
Losing Albert isn’t terrifying because we remember, “hey, we’ve still got a damn good team without him.”
Our last memories of Albert the Cardinal aren’t the .299 and the 99 RBI. Instead we got the 3-HR game in the World Series.
So thanks, St. Louis Cardinals, for your DENSITY.
Oh, high-five to the Braves too.
And Torty.
Still not a werewolf.
i'm less upset about losing Pujols today than i was yesterday
something about his comments during the press conference, i don’t know. they were disappointing. some sour grapes in there
something is happening here but you don't know what it is
and his last AB in a Cards uniform
a strikeout in Game 7 of the World Series
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Dec 11, 2011 9:02 PM EST up reply actions
oh I'm okay with that.
He was hardly my favorite. Didn’t crack the top 5. But this break-up isn’t nearly as hard as it might’ve been. Plus! All that bonus money for the next 10 years.
Still not a werewolf.
I would be completely comfortable
Referring to Albert as “the man whose name shall not be spoken”. Or written. Whatever. His name honestly makes me feel sick to my stomach.
by Cheeseballs on Dec 11, 2011 9:02 PM EST via mobile reply actions
i have two nominations
either Nothingman (re: Pearl Jam) or Nowhere Man (re: Beatles)
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Dec 11, 2011 9:04 PM EST up reply actions
All nominations are welcome
It’d be nice to have everyone on board, tho. Maybe hold a vote.
by Cheeseballs on Dec 11, 2011 9:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You could call him Dan Haren
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
by mysterui on Dec 11, 2011 9:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Fine by me
But that could get quite confusing
by Cheeseballs on Dec 11, 2011 9:18 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Guys, I've been away most of the weekend doing Christmas shopping.
How come we haven’t signed Beltran yet? I know it’s the weekend and all, but come on. This seems obvious to me.
Probably just a matter of negotiations taking time
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Yeah, in all seriousness I hope so
I was mostly joking (except, don’t tell MO, I want him to think I’m pissed he’s taking so long).
we can just sim through this part, right?
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 11, 2011 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
more importantly
why haven’t we signed albert pujols yet. everyone just stopped talking about the winter meetings right in the middle of the thing
Anybody think the Angels might be looking to shed some payroll with those massive contracts for Wilson and Pujols?
I’m thinking maybe we could trade for Pujols, he’s still probably an elite 1B for a handful of years. We got some guys in the minors, maybe they’ll eat some of the salary. What say you, VEB?
Lohse, Westbrook McClellan and Boggs
for Pujols and ‘cash considerations’
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Dec 11, 2011 9:17 PM EST up reply actions
They might want a replacement first baseman, though
How about we offer them Hamilton instead of Boggs.
ok, sounds good
get on the horn
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Dec 11, 2011 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
They cancelled the winter meetings this year.
Apparently they also are planning to remove the western AL division, and Albert Pujols is holding a press conference tomorrow to say that it is so much not about the money that he is retiring today and donating every dime he ever made to go live in a monastery in an undisclosed wilderness.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
Actually, I'm gonna come clean with you guys
That’s not what happened.
What really happened (and I figured this out using science) is that somehow, probably due to a glitch in SBN’s holo-programming, there was a temporary space-time disruption this week, affecting all members of VEB. Unfortunately we have all been stranded in an alternate timeline, wherein the Cardinals actually didn’t end up signing Albert Pujols, and he became a villain in the Los Angeles quadrant (in our original timeline Pujols is clean-shaven right now and we’re all trying to decide whether to put Greene at SS or 2B instead of talking about Beltran; in our new mirror-universe Pujols currently has a goatee).
It sucks and I’m not sure how we’re ever going to get back. The bright side is that now we get to explore a strange new world of roster freedom, Grand Praetor Mozeliak also will be growing a goatee soon, and the Bizarrdinals’ uniforms have cool sashes.
I am still getting used to the idea of rooting for the Bizarrdinals instead of the team from my own timeline
But part of me can’t help it and feels obligated to help however I can in this hellish dystopia.
As evidence I offer the photo from this page:
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/mlb/story/2011/12/10/sp-pujols-angels-fans.html
As you can see, Bizarro Pujols is clearly dressed as some sort of super-villain hiding in plain sight. He’ll probably use his fame and fortune in this timeline to quietly build a private army and gather power using advanced technology. I assume he will prefer to run clandestine operations against the Justice League using his identity as a retired baseball player as a cover of sorts, however there is also the chance that he’ll manufacture some sort of crisis which enables him to take power more directly, such as getting himself elected president of the United States through some sort of shady manipulation.
The Angels used World Series bunting at the introduction of Pujols & Wilson?
The GOB will not take kindly to that…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
What happens if the Angels tank this season.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
They'll spend another $300MM next Hot Stove.
Of course, they’ll probably do that either way.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
The Veebs is trying really hard open a pop-up window for me.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 11, 2011 9:21 PM EST reply actions
Stan Musial: All-time Cardinals home run leader for at least another 20 more years.
Thats okay with me.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 9:22 PM EST reply actions
That would be perfect.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 9:38 PM EST up reply actions
good write-up, Azru
but I suggest taking the remaining $13M of the AP windfall and buying out NTCs of Lohse and Westbrook.
no.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 11, 2011 9:34 PM EST up reply actions
Mick Lite
The Cardinals continue communication with agent for FA outfielder Carlos Beltran. – Jim Bowden (ESPN)
over Beltran?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
Actually yeah I just looked up his stats
He’ll be a great bargain. But Beltran has much higher upside IMO.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
I reckon Crisp wants, and could get, 3 years.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 12, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
isn't he made redundant?
by at least chambers and maybe pham, etc. i haven’t checked but i don’t remember him being much of a hitter
by prophetjohn on Dec 11, 2011 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
no, he's much better than those guys
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
And is a switch hitter
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Beltran>Coco>Chambers>Pham
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
Beltran can definitely play center as well
Just rather poorly. Does it really matter if Beltran is a -10 defender? He’ll easily make up for it with his offense. Coco’s probably a -5 defender in center.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
It's not close...
Coco projects a 270/330/390. Beltran is 280/370/500. And the money is less important if you have a lot of it.
Sign Roy O
Yeah, but Beltran's a bit better on defense
And will be a lot cheaper. I can see where Joker’s coming from, but if we have money to spend, we should go for Beltran.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
Er Coco is
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 10:45 PM EST up reply actions
Coco is career +5 in CF and has been + summed over the last 3 years (plus he's fast as fuck, he's a good defensive CFer)
And Beltran moved off of CF in large part because of wear and tear if I recall correctly, Angel Pagan didn’t magically get better from 2008-2009.
I just think Coco works better for being the 3.5th OFer + defensive replacement—-could probably be had on a 1-year deal and leaves more payroll flexibility for who knows what mid-season—-without being all that much worse. Plus I randomly want an awesome base stealer just because that’s more fun.
I like Beltran, I just have irrational love for all things Coco Crisp.
Not afraid to nitpick
Sign Coco and Beltran, trade Jay?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
That'd make them better in 2012
Probably not 2013-2015. Although picking up say Jonny Venters WAG!, and rolling with the Coco/Beltran “ONE OF THESE GUYS WON’T BE INJURED RIGHT!?” strategy would be pretty fun.
/rosterbation
Not afraid to nitpick
VEB could be Coco Crisp Anonymous
I just have irrational love for all things Coco Crisp.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
VEB: We're coo-coo for Coco
/Totally sure no one has ever made that joke before
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 11, 2011 10:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
coco has a pretty extensive injury history
i feel like people just like him because he has an afro and is named coco haha
Reminder of what Cards lineup looks like if we get Beltran:
Opening Day:
Furcal
Jay
Holliday
Berkman
Beltran
Freese
Molina
Descalso/Greene
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
seems like i'm violating muscle memory by not reading "pujols" third
by prophetjohn on Dec 11, 2011 10:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
"P", "u", "j", backspace, backspace, backspace.
Everytime.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
damnit
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
I could really get behind the buying Cespedes and Beltran both thing.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
how does one do well on finals without studying?
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 11, 2011 10:13 PM EST reply actions
Ostensibly by doing well on the other tests leading up to the final, which means you already know the material
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
and that's where i lack motivation...
feeling like i already know it but knowing i should review it anyway.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 11, 2011 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
this, for the most part
but i definitely need to practice my methods of calculating volumes
that’ll only take a couple hours, though, and can wait until tuesday
by prophetjohn on Dec 11, 2011 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
Osmosis
by sleeping on your books.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 11, 2011 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
i dunno man, but finals weeks are generally when i start getting into break mode
i put in probably 10 or so hours paying video games the last 2 days. i have 3 finals in the next 3 days. i’m not worried at all, either
by prophetjohn on Dec 11, 2011 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
this is me. i watched football all day today and did nothing yesterday.
and my mind is preoccupied with other shit.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 11, 2011 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
being born
absolutely brilliant helps.
by sgf_stl_cardsfan on Dec 11, 2011 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
by having english as a major
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
amen sista
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
Oswalt?
What’s up with Roy? Should we be interested?
Carp’s a year older and Wainwright is still questionable. Couldn’t we hedge our bets with pitching help.
[Long time lurker. I really appreciate this groups’ insight into the world of baseball. Thanks for many hours of reading and reflecting on the Cardinals and baseball in general.]
by sgf_stl_cardsfan on Dec 11, 2011 10:21 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I love Oswalt but I think this is pushing us into the realm of Retail Therapy when it comes to getting over Pujols
Not that there’s anything wrong with Retail Therapy.
Boog would have made that play.
If we don't spend more money,
and the team ends up not being competitive, don’t the owners look like cheapskates? Regardless of whether it makes sense or not.
Yes its retail therapy for fans.
by sgf_stl_cardsfan on Dec 11, 2011 10:57 PM EST up reply actions
Too many pitchers right now as it is.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think so... in a pinch, I think Lynn, Scrabble, Dickson, and most likely Shelby are all above replacement level pitchers
Should somebody get hurt
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
rui do you have the link to the CCDGAF video?
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 11, 2011 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
I have no idea what you're talking about
Do you mean when he yelled at Edwin Jackson?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Yes and fang is being no help
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 11, 2011 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
This?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
by mysterui on Dec 11, 2011 10:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yes and fang actually helped but i didn't have java script on and thought he was messing with me
Shouldn’t have doubted him.. also thanks again rui
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 11, 2011 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
Nice quote in there from Edwin.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 12, 2011 12:02 AM EST up reply actions
Dickson?
Above replacement level? Yikes. I’d bet against you on that.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
It'd just be tricky to make room for him with Lohse/Westbrook being perfectly fine MLB starters
And then there’s Shelby Miller, Lynn, Scrabble, Cleto etc for pitching depth to account for the injury potential. They’re better off going after position players.
Not afraid to nitpick
Trade Westy for some salary relief and then sign Oswalt and Beltran
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, we can pressure Westy into waiving his no trade clause
“You can either accept a trade and be a starter for another team, or be a mopup pitcher for us”
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
...and he sits in the bullpen the whole year.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
huh?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 10:55 PM EST up reply actions
He'd rather sit in the pen all year...
than take the ball every fifth day for the Red Sox or Yankees?
Sign Roy O
Is this your plan to make sure no other FAs sign with us?
This sort of treatment would get around among agents and players and the Cards are repeat players in the FA market. It’s simply not a plausible option.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 11, 2011 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
Westbrook has a responsibility to be one of the five best starters on the team...
If he doesn’t pitch well, a demotion is not going to be held against the team.
Sign Roy O
one could argue he didn't pitch well enough last season to keep his spot
going into next season.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
definitely not
You have to look at saber stats to make that argument.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
Not a very good argument granted.
A 4.66 ERA is pretty good for a 5th starter. Plus his saber stats were slightly below average.
Well, if the demotion is based on merit, then there's no problem.
The problem is threatening him with a demotion in an effort to get him to waive contractually agreed to rights. (by the way, such a tactic is going to be an issue with the player’s union and is likely a breach of good faith in the performance of a contract – basically, for like ten different reasons, the idea is dumb)
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 11, 2011 11:47 PM EST up reply actions
Obviously you don't say that to the player. You just let him know they'll be moving him to the bullpen.
Then you let him know that some teams have inquired on his availability, and ask him if he’d be open to a trade if it meant he’d be back in the rotation somewhere.
It’s really not that big of a deal. It happens.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 12, 2011 12:12 AM EST up reply actions
this is how I see it.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 12, 2011 12:13 AM EST up reply actions
As if the intent won't be transparent? Please.
Might happen if the NTC is renegotiated and his mutual option is guaranteed. Might.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 12, 2011 12:46 AM EST up reply actions
I'd rather have Lynn in the rotation than Westbrook anyway
There’s no guise going on.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 12:47 AM EST up reply actions
Fine, but Westbrook isn't dropping his NTC just because he's shifted to the pen.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 12, 2011 12:49 AM EST up reply actions
Why not?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
Because he'd rather start than be in the pen?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 12:52 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, well when Westbrook says this is a sufficient reason to drop his NTC, let me know.
I won’t be holding my breath.
Lynn’s going to be in the pen, and Westbrook will be the 5th starter, so IMO the issue is moot anyway.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 12, 2011 12:54 AM EST up reply actions
You act as if waiving the no trade clause is like authorizing us to shoot his mother
It’s nothing else besides him giving his permission to be traded.
And if he can be a starter with the D-Backs or something as apposed to being a reliever with the Cards, I think he’d take the trade.
Lynn’s going to be in the pen, and Westbrook will be the 5th starter, so IMO the issue is moot anyway.
Nice argument there.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 12:57 AM EST up reply actions
You entire argument is premised on
the notion that he’s going to act contrary to his preference as shown by negotiating and agreeing to the NtC in the first place, which you have no evidence for.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 12, 2011 1:01 AM EST up reply actions
His no trade clause was negotiated with the expectation of being a starter
If he’s not a starter anymore, he’s likely to waive his no trade clause both for the sake of next season and his career.
You’re blatantly arguing against common sense. What the hell?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 1:05 AM EST up reply actions
The Eagles suck yes
But what’s your point?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 1:08 AM EST up reply actions
They're definitely way overrated.
If they got half the air time they currently do, I’d be much happier.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 12, 2011 1:09 AM EST up reply actions
Actually Hotel California has a pretty nice chord progression
You could almost mistake it for an 80’s Pink Floyd song until the singing starts.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 1:11 AM EST up reply actions
They have some pretty good songs
but they’re just OK for me, and then they have a bunch of other songs that I recognize are catchy and all but I just don’t like them that much. Wouldn’t bother me if I didn’t hear them on the radio all the time.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 12, 2011 1:17 AM EST up reply actions
He negotiated the NTC based on the rest of the contract.
The Cardinals have re-signed Jake Westbrook to a two-year contract with a mutual option for 2013 worth a guaranteed $16.5MM. The deal includes a full no-trade clause that was given in exchange for a non-guaranteed third year.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 12, 2011 1:10 AM EST up reply actions
so its likely that he would waive it
if the last year becomes guaranteed. this happens, but it won’t with westy.
Could happen. Might even be written in the contract that way.
But he becomes much more difficult to move if that’s the case.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 12, 2011 1:12 AM EST up reply actions
except that Westbrook has lost leverage since the initial negotiation
The only leverage he has, now, is whether to allow himself to be traded. But being traded is a “win” for him, compared to being a bullpen guy, so he should, rationally, agree to it for a much more modest compensation.
"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?
he still has the leverage i think
we can’t trade him without his consent, and i’d venture a guess that he has a good rep in the clubhouse, so i doubt mo would try to force him into anything. really depends on where they would look to move him, but if he likes it here he isn’t going anywhere imo.
we don't have to force though
I’d be happy with him in the pen and Lynn in the rotation.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 1:17 AM EST up reply actions
that's fair
i just think it’s hard to know if such a move would really tempt him to accept a trade. does he like where he is, is starting important, is winning important, etc. we can’t really know, but based on the fact that mo openly discussed the possibility of trading westy and lohse, i’m sure he knows what’s possible going forward wrt trading them. in mo i trust.
if his goal is "not to be traded", that would be true
If his goal is “be a MLB starter for as long as possible”, or “make as much money as possible”, which seems more likely, then he has zero leverage, since all the contract guarantees him is $xM/yr.
Clearly we don’t know his intentions, but he needs to prove he’s still an effective starter, or else his leverage in the next contract negotiation will be massively reduced.
"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?
ok, but going forward
what’s preferable for him. To be in the pen and have no shot at getting a good contract next year, or being in the rotation and having a shot.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 1:12 AM EST up reply actions
Because he'll be a FA again and won't want to be seen as a reliever
If he can show the ability to start and pitch decently as a starter, he’ll be rewarded with a larger contract.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 12, 2011 12:53 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry, this isn't persuasive to me at all as a reason why he's going ot waive his NTC.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 12, 2011 12:57 AM EST up reply actions
Hey, players will go anywhere for money.
Just comes down to how much money he thinks he would lose by getting stuck in the bullpen. No guarantee he waives it though, but I don’t think it’s that unlikely.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 12, 2011 1:03 AM EST up reply actions
So he's going to let himself end his career as a middle reliever then
Good logic.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 1:05 AM EST up reply actions
So because Westbrook would be demoted for Lynn...
Other teams won’t see him as a starter on the FA market? No, I think they’ll still see him as starter.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 12, 2011 1:10 AM EST up reply actions
i'm sure that teams would be dying to sign a 35 year old right handed sinkerballer to start with the past two years of data being:
1. bad
2. bullpen
Sign Yoennis Céspedes?
if they're so averse to signing him for those reasons
why are they going to want to trade for him under the exact same circumstances to start?
by prophetjohn on Dec 12, 2011 1:14 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
So who would trade for him then?
You’re chasing your tail at this point.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 12, 2011 1:15 AM EST up reply actions
this whole conversation is bizarre-
i’m just trying to point out that people waive no trade clauses all the time for a variety of reasons, and this is as likely a reason as any for it to happen.
Sign Yoennis Céspedes?
I think the argument is pretty rock solid here
Jake Westbrook is likely to waive his NTC because
-The Cardinals are perfectly justified putting him in the bullpen
-Any theoretical team willing to take on his salary is probably going to give him a shot at a rotation slot. The exception would be the extremely wealthy team that is willing to take his contract on as a middle reliever so they can get another, more valuable piece along with him. This scenario seems rather unlikely. The Red Sox are stuck at the luxury tax line. The Yankees probably would give him a shot in the rotation. There probably aren’t many buyers out there for him, but if there are, it is overwhelming likely that Westbrook would be able to increase his earning potential on that team. So why wouldnt he waive his NTC?
by purple_haze on Dec 12, 2011 5:24 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Just because the Cards move him
to the bullpen in favor of Lynn, doesn’t mean other teams will now magically consider westbrook to be just a middle reliever for his next hypothetical FA contract. They would simply recognize he’d been replaced by a prospect and still see him as a starter.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 12, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I'm sure some team will think he's good enough to pay 4 million for
Because, based on his FIP and everything, he’s a 1-2 WAR pitcher next year, and for 4 million that’s a bargain.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 1:13 AM EST up reply actions
no, I would be that the majority of teams use ERA
and Westbrook being demoted because of his high ERA would not be seen as some great travesty.
but plenty of teams I’m sure use DIPS of some sort.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 1:16 AM EST up reply actions
I'm glad you admit that
Show me where I was inconsistent?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 1:18 AM EST up reply actions
It's funny because it's not true
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
hey man, the beatles suck
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 1:25 AM EST up reply actions
well, you're just being dense then
this makes perfect sense, and has undoubtedly happened many times before if someone would go check transaction logs and no trade clauses. i’m less interested in doing this, because i know this makes sense, and don’t see why it needs to be proven to someone offering little to no evidence to the contrary.
Sign Yoennis Céspedes?
The burden is on you to show why
Westbrook, who bargained for the protection of a NTC, would waive it simply because he would be put in the pen. You’re speculating on a player’s mental state, family situation, motivations, etc., and it is you who have no evidence for your assertion.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 12, 2011 1:13 AM EST up reply actions
i'm not saying it 100% certainly would
i’m saying there’s a very good chance that it would, and you’re for some reason completely writing off any possibility of this happening solely because he negotiated a NTC into his contract.
Sign Yoennis Céspedes?
That would not actually be evidence to the contrary
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 1:14 AM EST up reply actions
I thought you were being sarcastic
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 1:16 AM EST up reply actions
nevermind
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 1:15 AM EST up reply actions
i think it's unlikely that he's going to be very inclined to leave the team he just won a WS with
kyle lohse’s thoughts on the matter (he essentially just laughed when asked if he would waive the NTC) are pretty telling
it’s not like the best teams in baseball are going to be the teams jumping all over the guy who supposedly can’t hack it in the NL central. it’s the teams that suck and need a veteran and innings. he’s not leaving the cards for that.
by prophetjohn on Dec 12, 2011 12:48 AM EST up reply actions
Lohse is a different matter than Westbrook
He actually had a very good year and there is no way we could spin it as anything other than a ploy.
Plenty of teams need 5th starters, especially wealthy teams like the Red Sox or Yankees who don’t care about money and just want a place holder.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 12:50 AM EST up reply actions
what?
you were just presenting an identical argument for how we were going to get lohse. identical. then when rumors surfaced that he was being shopped, you were totally right. but now that lohse has declared what most people thought obvious, it’s a different situation
there’s nothing wrong with starting lynn over westbrook, necessarily. i don’t think lynn is guaranteed to be better. he’s almost guaranteed to give you fewer innings. but it’s very unlikely that westbrook is waiving his NTC regardless. you’re not going to convince me otherwise
by prophetjohn on Dec 12, 2011 12:56 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I realize Lohse isn't going to happen
Because he deserves to be in the rotation and we’d definitely be seen as manipulating him.
With Westbrook it’s a different situation. You can definitely make the argument that Lynn is better. And if Westbrook is in the pen, I don’t see why he wouldn’t waive his no trade clause.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 12:59 AM EST up reply actions
Well obviously you don't do it in the same conversation.
You wait until someone asks first. And teams will ask about him. Anyway, obviously we disagree, but I really don’t think it’s that unrealistic. It’s no guarantee that you work a trade out anyway, but I bet he’d be willing to waive it depending on the team and circumstances.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 12, 2011 12:55 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, because doing it once and behind closed doors to an aging Westbrook who is coming off of a terrible season and honestly deserves to be a mopup guy
Is going to ensure no free agents sign with us.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
Well, since you're going to keep it behind closed doors, then I'm sure it won't be a problem.
/sarcasm
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 11, 2011 11:44 PM EST up reply actions
Westbrook barely deserves a shot in the rotation
If it weren’t for his salary, he’d be non-tendered. We don’t even have to blackmail him, I’d rather start Lynn than Westy anyways.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
i suspect jmo will let westie hang until someone has a big problem, and then will ask westie if he would help them oput
TLR is gone, long live the king
He's been worth 2.4 WAR in about 258 innings with the Cards.
He’s not a non-tender candidate.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 11, 2011 11:54 PM EST up reply actions
stop using fWAR
that’s clearly not what GM’s use.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
Most teams have an internal form of WAR that they use
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
no, i don't think so
I think a few teams do, most clearly don’t.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
or if they do it's based off something stupid like ERA
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
Or in the Phillies case, a can of chaw spit out by this guy's math skills
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 12, 2011 12:13 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
this
at the least it’s going to dissuade free agents from taking smaller contracts in favor of a NTC in the future if the cardinals start just pushing people out of their contracts, which is suggested quite often
but i guarantee mo knows this, so i’m not concerned about this being the strategy used
by prophetjohn on Dec 11, 2011 11:37 PM EST up reply actions
Westbrook had like a 6 ERA last year
He played himself out of the rotation. There’s no breach here.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
You are underestimating Westbrook.
Durable, predictable suckiness can be valuable.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
he put up 1.1 WAR last season
it’s not great, but he obviously hasn’t clearly pitched himself out of the rotation.
by prophetjohn on Dec 11, 2011 11:44 PM EST up reply actions
heh..
he had 0.0 bWAR
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 11:47 PM EST up reply actions
he had a middle infield of ryan theriot and skip schumaker most of the season
by prophetjohn on Dec 11, 2011 11:48 PM EST up reply actions
but he had Freese and Pujols on the corners
And Punto and Furcal for a large chunk of the season.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
so therefore ERA is a better indicator of success than (x)FIP
got it
by prophetjohn on Dec 11, 2011 11:50 PM EST up reply actions
never said that
But what do you think the majority of people in baseball use, ERA or FIP?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
VEP kind of seems like you're using FIP and xFIP when it fits your argument.
And then ERA when it does as well. Also, you keep assuming you know what front offices think which is… well fairly typical of you.
I think you're misunderstanding my argument
Fairly typical of you to go into an arguing not understanding what’s going on (?).
I’m not trying to project Westbrook. I agree with Hazel, et al, that he’s around a 4.20 (!) ERA pitcher next year.
What I’m doing is arguing against the notion that there will be some kind of backlash if we move Westbrook to the pen and use that to get him to waive his no trade clause. The fact that he had a 4.66 ERA last year means that we could justify moving him to the pen, and putting Lynn in the rotation.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 12:34 AM EST up reply actions
There will be backlash if we blackmail him.
1. Westy won’t waive his NTC.
2. Westy won’t waive his NTC.
3. Westy won’t waive his NTC.*
*Unless we give him no chance, and we look awful coming out of it.
Are you being intentionally thick?
If we put Westbrook in the pen and Lynn in the rotation – not a blackmail at all – and offer him the chance to start for another team, there is a high probability he will waive his no trade clause.
Seriously, are you even thinking about what you’re arguing?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 12:40 AM EST up reply actions
....
Well I think we would come out of that situation looking like bad guys.
Demoting Westy for an unproven starter. Not sure how that’s not making us look bad to future free agents.
Teams demote aging starters for unproven prospects all of the time
It’s not going to affect our rep.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 12:48 AM EST up reply actions
Agree to disagree I guess.
Lynn’s started two games with a 5.23 ERA. Not predictive I know, but that number would be thrown around asking why he’s starting around Westy.
Typically the aging veterans are also legitimately bad.
And you'd answer with "it's not predictive"
And “Lynn has a 94 MPH fastball”.
This happens all the time in baseball, proven veterans are shifted aside for prospects.
And I know you agree with that analysis Tyler Greene man, so what the fuck are you arguing?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
Tyler Greene?
Uh what? I’m doing the same thing you’re doing by the way.
You say Westy wouldn’t be argued against because he has a 4.66 ERA (not predictive). Well he would because the guy replacing him would have less starting experience and a 5.23 ERA.
I’m just trying to follow your logic here.
Ugh, that's ridiculous Gabe
Westbrook had 190 innings last year, Lynn had like 10.
I’m arguing that it’s commonplace to teams to replace old veterans with prospects. Like you argued that Tyler Greene (who has shitty numbers in a SSS in the bigs) should replace Theriot. And I agree with you, which is why I’m suprised your making this argument.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 1:03 AM EST up reply actions
What does this mean
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
(Most Obnoxious)? Subthread of the Year
MO subthread of the year anyway.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 12, 2011 1:07 AM EST up reply actions
it was really "most oblivious subthread of the year"
but i think obnoxious works better
Sign Yoennis Céspedes?
My mom always said I was smart.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 12, 2011 1:10 AM EST up reply actions
most outstanding subthread of the year?
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 12, 2011 1:06 AM EST up reply actions
How is it that you think you break onto a team as a prospect pitcher?
You make the major league team, get a few spot starts, get some relief innings, try and prove yourself. If you have some good stuff or minor league numbers or whatever, the team gives you a shot over the worst pitcher on the team. Lance Lynn is unproven as a starter? Of course he is. He’s a prospect.
by purple_haze on Dec 12, 2011 5:42 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
and Gold glove candidate, Daniel Descalso.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 11:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
bWAR is useless for pitchers.
It is defense-dependent and we had one of the worse D’s in the league last year.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
it depends on what we're talkign about
for projecting future performance? yeah it’s worthless. for gauging how he and others around the league will repsond to a demotion, I’d say it’s more useful than fWAR.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think you have the slightest conscept of
how that demotion would play out. Westbrook did not pitch poorly last year and the implication that Lynn in demonstrably better is specious at best when you consider his body of work over the last several years. This whole subthread is a massive rationalization on your part.
Beware: Velociraptors may be present.
by azruavatar on Dec 12, 2011 10:00 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
that's kind of how i felt about Westy's pitching last year.
He just purely walked too many people. By the end of the season, I kind of thought that he was gun shy about letting anything get hit with the MIF we had. I know I would’ve been nibbling like hell to keep it from getting swatted.
Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 12, 2011 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed re: Lynn
IMO people massively over-rate the guy based on 30-odd innings from the pen last year.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 12, 2011 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think Lynn is demonstratedly better
I think they project around equal. Lynn is younger, and he is in the future of the team, I’d rather give him a shot.
As to this: “This whole subthread is a massive rationalization on your part.”
yeah, that’s the point.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not arguing that he's not valuable
I’m arguing that we would be in the right to put him in the pen. He had a 4.66 ERA last year, and will be 35.
I know he’s actually better than that, but I don’t think he’s better than Lynn.
My proposal: put Lynn in the rotation, put Westy in the pen. Offer Westbrook a trade to a team where he’ll be a starter. If he accepts, sign Oswalt to a one year deal, put Lynn back in the pen or in the minors.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
OMG, shut up and re-read the thread
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 12:35 AM EST up reply actions
The only thing I don't understand is.
If you believe teams soley rely on ERA (which I don’t), then nobody’s going to even want him anyway at his price tag.
It just wouldn’t be worth the hassle for Mo. He’d have to figure out a way to get Westy to waive his NTC, figure out what to trade him for, figure out how to spin it to the media, and then try and negotiate a contract with Oswalt for as little as possible. And that’s for what a 1 WAR upgrade?
Or he can just stay put.
I don't think all teams rely on ERA
I think that’s the majority consensus around baseball – nobody is going to throw a fit if we demote a 35 year old coming off of a 4.66 season.
I’m sure there will be some team who will want a slightly below average starter for 4 million and no prospects.
It’s not a hassle. Step 1) Move Lynn to the rotation and Westbrook to the pen. Step 2) shop around Westbrook and see if anyone bites. Step 3a) If a team bites, tell Westbrook he can start on another team if he accepts the trade. Step 3b) If a team doesn’t bit, keep Westbrook in the pen. I’d rather have Lynn starting anyway.
He could stay put, but we’d be a better team if we were able to trade him even for a little salary relief.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 12:46 AM EST up reply actions
I guess 4.66 is kind of like 6
given that it has, like, two 6’s in it. Come to think of it, it’s probably more “six-like” than 6.00 would be.
"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?
someone
if we offer to eat half of his salary and not take anyone in return.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
Obviously it depends on salary demands, but Oswalt is damned by replacing a person who is already above replacement level.
Westbrook figures to put up 1.5-2.5 WAR next season, meaning Oswalt would either have to be quite good, or quite cheap to be a significant upgrade. Considering his salary is likely to be higher than Beltran and close to what Cespedes will get, I think this is a bridge too far. We have a temporary outfield opening with Craig’s knee surgery, and combined with Berkman’s age, Jay’s left-handedness, and other rest, Beltran figures to get around 120 starts without having to really replace anyone. Cespedes would (hopefully) replace Jay directly, but he is also young and talented, making him a different case than Beltran or Oswalt.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
Oswalt would be our 4th best starter
I think he’ll take a one year deal. Trade Westbrook or Lohse.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 10:56 PM EST up reply actions
Keep Lohse, Trade Westbrook
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 10:57 PM EST up reply actions
Lohse will have more trade value
We might be able to convince someone to eat his whole salary in exchange for no prospects.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
I don't give a DAMN what we get back.
I’d happily trade them for a no chance prospect just to clear money.
The money IS the return.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
I see what you are saying...
Someone would pay all of Lohse’s contract, while only some of Westy’s. Thats probably right.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 11:12 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
But with Lohse it would be harder to get him to waive his NTC
We don’t have leverage like we do with Westbrook.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
There's no leverage with Westbrook.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 12, 2011 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
yes, there is
we could put him in the pen, and we could justify it easily.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, I think the "leverage"
You speculate about is not there. Your plan to demote or threaten to demote Westbrook in some effort to get him to waive his NTC is not plausible in the real world and is not going to happen anyway.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 12, 2011 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
No I plan to demote Westbrook to the pen
And put Lynn, who is younger and likely better, in the rotation. Then we offer Westbrook the option of waiving his no trade clause so he can be a starter for another team.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 12:36 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, I understand your plan. Not plausible and not gonna happen.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 12, 2011 12:43 AM EST up reply actions
Ok, I disagree on the first count
And you’ve provided no evidence to back up your opinion. As to the second count that’s up to Mo, Westbrook and whichever team wants him.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 12:47 AM EST up reply actions
You throw out speculation about Westbrook's
Personal motivations, in direct contravention to the purpose of a NTC (which is not to get traded), which we know he wanted in signing this contract, and you say I have “no evidence”? What a weird statement.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 12, 2011 1:27 AM EST up reply actions
Alright, whatever
You and I clearly have a different understanding of what a no trade clause means.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 1:31 AM EST up reply actions
Personal Motivations?
I know nothing and do not need to know anything about his personal motivations. You only need to follow the very simple economic motivations that he shares with every other athlete (or any employee, for that matter). Here we have good and plausible options to replace him in the rotation. If we do so, it would clearly be in his best interest to accept a trade to a team that does not have as many options in the rotation because his earning power is greater as a starter. Sure, since he argued for an NTC, he obviously values not having to be traded for some unknown personal reasons. But I generally tend to expect athletes to follow the money.
by purple_haze on Dec 12, 2011 5:56 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
yeah, clearly, the leverage is 100% with STL
He’s completely dependent on his performance in STL to enable him to sign ather contract. STL has all the power to put him in positions to succeed (starting) or to not even have a chance to succeed (middle reliever).
"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?
A 4.2 FIP for 200 innings is close to 2 WAR.
I think he was badly scalded by our hot-handed MIF last year.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
Exactly.
I calculated last offseason that losing boog would add about .2 runs to our staff’s ERA. I think that calculation may have been low.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
I see an Oswalt signing as similar to a Beltran signing...
between Craig’s injury, Jay reverting, and Berkman just being old, Beltran will get his 500 at bats.
With our pitching staff, Oswalt will get his 160 innings. The idea that Waino and Carp will be strong throughout 2012 AND Lohse/Westy will pitch effectively (1-2 war) just seems incredibly unlikely.
Sign Roy O
I agree.
At least one implosion is bound to happen. I’m satisfied with the Lynn, Rzep, Miller options, though.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
I can see your reasoning.
Pitching is a bit different tho, because it’s more difficult to say “okay Westbrook, you are still going to get a lot of work, but you aren’t in the rotation coming out of spring”.
As I was saying, it depends on the price. I was thinking Oswalt would get something like 3/36, but that seems a bit less likely looking at his age and health.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
I was thinking Berkman could talk him up...
and he could take a Smoltz elder statesman/I’m already rich contract.
Sign Roy O
Your daily December Christmas song:
The Chipmunk Song- Christmas Don’t Be Late
It’s been a long day. Have some Chipmunk.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 11, 2011 10:21 PM EST reply actions
#PujolsCriesWhen Alvin doesn't get a hula hoop.
The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...
Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski
Just read in the ESPN scroll at the bottom
“WAS lost 10 of last 12 home games” and my first thought was, Man the Nationals are terrible. It’s gonna be a long winter.
Manchester City: 38 points, 12-0-2, 1st in EPL, +35 GD
Sergio Aguero: 11 G, 3 A
Edin Dzeko: 10 G, 3 A
by cardinalswsbound on Dec 11, 2011 10:28 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
VEB does anyone have the link to the CCDGAF video?
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 11, 2011 10:36 PM EST reply actions
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 11, 2011 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
fang I've tried to google it, figured one of you guys had it bookmarked or saved somewhere
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 11, 2011 10:43 PM EST up reply actions
Also do you realize how hard it is to google? All you come up with is google links to VEB even if you spell it out
I don’t remember who hit him or any contextual clues
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 11, 2011 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
you found it, right?
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 11, 2011 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
No
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 11, 2011 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
really?
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 11, 2011 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
it's the video on the page of the first result...
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 11, 2011 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
I didn't have java turned on ... thought you were furcing with me lol
Sorry and thanks at same time
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 11, 2011 10:57 PM EST up reply actions
ahem....
(cough) link (cough)
in the section “Got benches? Carp will clear them in an instant!”
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
Should have just looked there to start with. Thanks d-dee!
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Dec 12, 2011 6:28 AM EST up reply actions
Ryan Theriot has 24 1/2 hours left as a Cardinal.
Deadline to tender contracts is tomorrow at 11pm. My guess: Motte, Schumaker and McClellan are tendered contracts while Theriot is not.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 11:27 PM EST reply actions
Let us hope that's the case.
Also- Schumaker.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 11, 2011 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
why Skip, why McClellan
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
What the hell is Schumaker?
A second baseman? We’ve got Descalso and Greene on board, and Punto wants to come back and he’d be cheaper and he’s actually good at playing second base. A center fielder? We’ve got Jay, Komatsu, Chambers… maybe Beltran.
Sign Roy O
i doubt schumaker is tendered
mozeliak said that if he is with the cardinals, it’s as an OF and he’s obviously pursuing beltran
by prophetjohn on Dec 11, 2011 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
Can Skip be moved to the minors?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
I'm sure he CAN be
But I think he has to agree to it at this point or something
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
veterans' consent rule
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78
wish they'd publish the new CBA
Right now I feel completely unable to second-guess most any decision, because they haven’t told us the rules they are operating under. Boooo!
"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?
If they didn't want Dotel for $3.5 million...
I have to imagine they won’t be interested in KMac at $3M. And Schumaker would also make around $3 million. I can’t imagine either of those guys coming back at that price.
Sign Roy O
no, I have faith in Mo
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
i don't want skip back...
but here’s a question for everyone:
skip schumaker probably would be worth $3M dollars if he got enough PA’s. so what’s the difference between him and some other guy that we want to sign for MV?
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 11, 2011 11:40 PM EST up reply actions
i guess that depends on what the heck "MV" stands for
by prophetjohn on Dec 11, 2011 11:41 PM EST up reply actions
Manny Vramirez
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 11, 2011 11:42 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
market value...
is that only mainstream for accounting majors?
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 12, 2011 12:26 AM EST up reply actions
There are two constraints: Money and a spot on the 25 man roster
He is not the best use of that spot on the 25 man roster
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
stop posting under this name and maybe i'll acknowledge you again.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 12, 2011 12:40 AM EST up reply actions
Yea, how much longer does this bet run?
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 12, 2011 12:41 AM EST up reply actions
One whole month.
TomCaat must be trolling the rest of VEB i guess cause this doesn’t bother me that much.
there's a whole month REMAINING?
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 12, 2011 12:43 AM EST up reply actions
oh goddammit.
find me a ticket to the braggin’ rights game, would ’ya?
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 12, 2011 12:45 AM EST up reply actions
do they even have student ones for that
or did mommy and daddy procure some?
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 12, 2011 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
no? i was just curious...
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 12, 2011 12:58 AM EST up reply actions
You said mommy and daddy procure some?
I’d probably take that as an insult if you said that to me in real life.
it's a joke.
you and your friends don’t talk about stuff “mommy and daddy” give or do for you?
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 12, 2011 1:07 AM EST up reply actions
What the hell?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
guess it's just us...
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 12, 2011 1:14 AM EST up reply actions
i talk about things mysterui's mommy does for me
Sign Yoennis Céspedes?
by tehzachatak on Dec 12, 2011 1:12 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Your mom calls me daddy
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 1:35 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You've been a member
here for what…two weeks? Take some time to understand some of the social dynamics of the blog…AKA every third comment is a joke. No need to be nasty.
Something clever...
by Dttl89 on Dec 12, 2011 1:25 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
stlcardsfan4
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
heh
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 1:26 AM EST up reply actions
LOLZIES
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 12, 2011 1:27 AM EST up reply actions
Thanks for the avatar
Much appreciated.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 12, 2011 1:51 AM EST up reply actions
Hahahah
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 12, 2011 1:51 AM EST up reply actions
Ugh. Can you at least get an avatar?
The swirly-a is bad enough.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 12, 2011 12:45 AM EST up reply actions
well, it was "Dotel, or Draft Pick"
With Kmac, it’s “Kmac, or nothing”.
Doesn’t make it a good signing, but it’s an additional consideration; Dotel’s not a particularly good comparison imho.
"Our son Dick was sitting in his high chair, and I looked at that money, and I knew I could never look my son in the face again, if I took that money" (to leave the Cardinals) -Stan Musial, 1946
Why trade "The Mang"for "El Salmon", for less than $2M/yr, after taxes?
schumaker and mcclellan have no place on the team.
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 11, 2011 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
One thing to remember about being non-tendered.
It doesn’t mean the Cardinals still won’t sign them. This happened with Aaron Miles a few years back.
If the Cardinals are interested in bringing Skip back, it’s not going to be at the $2.5 – $3 million range. I think its likely that he gets non-tendered and then discusses a more reasonable contract for around 1 million or 1.5 million. Obviously, I hope this doesn’t happen either. Its just something to remember before anyone goes jumping for joy if we get news that Skip or KMac are nontendered. K-Mac might actually be wise to test the FA market.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
i would still like to try to get some non-nothing out of kmac via trade
but i don’t know how compelling a target he is with his arbitration coming up
by prophetjohn on Dec 11, 2011 11:47 PM EST up reply actions
Rains clarifies in later tweets
That he’s not sure K-Mac will be on the team, just that he’ll get tendered. He, like some of us, view him as a trade candidate. He thinks Pujols leaving added to Skip’s chance at returning.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 11, 2011 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
My sister is trying to collect cooking recipes
I remember a discussion going on here about a specific cooking website where everyone posts their recipes and you sift through pictures of food and click on one to link to the recipe. Does anyone remember the name?
by RasmustheRipper on Dec 11, 2011 11:33 PM EST reply actions
Pinterest?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
I thought it started with a P,
so I guess its not solely a cooking website… thanks
by RasmustheRipper on Dec 11, 2011 11:37 PM EST up reply actions
The Yummy Life
food blog has been discussed here several times.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
but you are obviously talking about pinterest
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
At the risk of tossing out a terrible guess
Does your mom own that blog?
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 12, 2011 3:08 AM EST up reply actions
ARE YOU CALLING ME ONLY SEMI-REGULAR
Nah, but it’s not me. I doubt he would care if I pointed him out, but I don’t want to do it without asking first.
I've risked all and lost.
That’s fine, I really don’t have any other guesses, that just would’ve explained how you knew so much.
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 12, 2011 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
Please don't be us
jonmorosiJon Morosi
Michael Cuddyer’s FA decision will be huge news. Could happen soon. Big impact on #Twins, #Rockies plans.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 12, 2011 12:11 AM EST reply actions
It won't be.
It’s mainly just the Twins and Rockies, but the deal would affect the market for Josh Willingham, who’s probably going to the Indians (although there were other teams he’s talked with). Beltran seems to be a separate entity for whatever reason.
leach post
http://yourenotagolfer.mlblogs.com/2011/12/12/the-long-overdue-post-pujols-twitter-answers-post/
among other things:
Yoennis Cespedes?
No and no. I talked to someone at the Winter Meetings with a very close knowledge of the Cespedes situation, and I was told in no uncertain terms that the Cardinals are not expected to be any kind of player for the Cuban outfielder.
Y'all are scooping me on the Twitters tonight.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 12, 2011 12:25 AM EST up reply actions
Kind of unusual to get that kind of definitive response.
#HappySeason #SadOffSeason
by The Continental on Dec 12, 2011 12:27 AM EST up reply actions
so what you're saying is, there's hope?
SIGN ARAMIS RAMIREZ!!!!!!!?
by EinFesteBusch on Dec 12, 2011 1:03 AM EST up reply actions
Got this from Rotoworld
Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe reports that free agent outfielders Carlos Beltran and Michael Cuddyer appear to be “too expensive” for the Red Sox.
Cafardo says the Sox don’t want to go over the $178 million luxury tax threshold, and after David Ortiz accepted arbitration, they’re evidently not far away from that number. He anticipates that they’ll only be able to afford a “mid-level right fielder” at this point and thinks “even Cody Ross might cost too much.” The Sox are also searching for a No. 5 starter, but Cafardo says their budget for one is only “about $3-$5 million.” The apparent financial crunch that has the Red Sox, according to Cafardo, “going about things as if they were the Pirates or Royals,” is also a factor in why they seem to prefer trading for Andrew Bailey rather than just signing Ryan Madson.
Just throwing this out, off the top of my head. We have Lohse set to make $11.875 million this year, and Westbrook set to make $8.5 million, with an $8.5 million option/$1 million buyout for 2013. As a trade possibility, for a very good minor leaguer or two, does anyone think the BoSox would be interested in either of these guys, if we offered to pay their salary, less, say, $4 million? Would this be a smart move on our part? The difficulty would be replacing either Westy or Lohse’s production, but doesn’t everyone here seem to think that we have someone who could be our #5 in the system right now? And, of course, who would that be? I know some think Scrabble should be an option, but then we’d likely have to go out and get not one, but two lefties, since we don’t seem to have even one decent farmhand (though I’d like to see Gast get a shot). It’s too early for Miller or Martinez, but we still have Dickson, the last time I looked, and I know I’d like to see Lynn get another shot at starting for us. Thoughts?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 12, 2011 12:50 AM EST reply actions
I'm not sure if you know this but I'm putting it here anyway.
Lohse has a NTC and there’s no way he waives it. Westy is unappealing at best and would likely not waive it either.
If you did know that, well then I give up trying to explain why neither will waive their NTCs.
i think Westbrook would be appealing to the Red Sox
it’s pretty hard to overstate how badly the Red Sox need another SP.
Sign Yoennis Céspedes?
Yeah, forgot their nasty ole NTC's. Ah, well, just a late night thought.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 12, 2011 1:09 AM EST up reply actions
Why would he not waive his NTC?
NTCs are usually just a convenience, and rarely actually exercised, and the player can usually be bought out of an NTC for next to nothing.
Something clever...
Beltran would be a good signing.
He would give us good depth.
Projected line-up with Beltran:
Furcal SS
Craig RF
Holliday LF
Berkman 1B
Beltran CF
Freese 3B
Molina C
Descalso/Greene 2B
Pitcher
I would say 2B is our weakest position, but it is not a major downfall. There really is no free agent 2B that would improve us at all, but there are several MIF’s that could represent an improvement that may be available or may become available during the course of the season. The White Sox are known to be rebuilding, so I have to wonder if Alexei Ramirez might be available.
Alexei Ramirez:
Age: 30
Salary: $8.1M
FA: 2015(club option for 2016)
2011 OBP: .328
Career OBP: .323
2011 OPS+: 97
Career OPS+: 96
2011 WAR: 3.3
If he is available I’d check on him. As long as we don’t give up Miller, Martinez, or Taveres I’d be ok with this addition.
Another White Sox guy is Gordan Beckham.
Gordon Beckham:
Age: 25
Salary: $485K(not yet arb eligible)
FA: 2016
2011 OBP: .296
Career OBP: .318
2011 OPS+: 72
Career OPS+: 87
2011 WAR: 1.2
I’m not sure how much of an improvement he would be, but he has shown flashes of the potential. If they wanted to give him away, at the very least he’d be a good bench guy.
Brian Roberts would be another guy I would check on. It would be a little risky, he’s been injured a lot, but he was good and very well could still be good.
Brian Roberts:
Age: 34
Salary: $10M
FA: 2014
2011 OBP: .273
Career OBP: .353
2011 OPS+: 66
Career OPS+: 103
2011 WAR: -0.1
If the Padres fall out of the race before the trade deadline Bartlett or Hudson could become available.
Jason Bartlett:
Age: 32
Salary: $5.5M
FA: 2012(Club option for 2013)
2011 OBP: .308
Career OBP: .339
2011 OPS+: 76
Career OPS+: 92
2011 WAR: 0.1
Orlando Hudson:
Age: 34
Salary: $5.75M
FA: 2012(Club option for 2013)
2011 OBP: .329
Career OBP: .345
2011 OPS+: 94
Career OPS+: 99
2011 WAR: 1
Both would be improvements and would probably come cheap as the move would be mostly a salary dump.
If the Diamondbacks fall out of contention Aaron Hill or maybe even Stephen Drew might be able to be had.
Aaron Hill:
Age: 29
Salary: $5.5M
FA: 2014
2011 OBP: .299
Career OBP: .321
2011 OPS+: 76
Career OPS+: 94
2011 WAR: 1.7
Stephen Drew:
Age: 28
Salary: $6.9M
FA: 2012(Mutual option for 2013)
2011 OBP: .317
Career OBP: .330
2011 OPS+: 93
Career OPS+: 98
2011 WAR: 1.4
Last candidates that I would consider would be a pair of Giants MIF’s.
Freddy Sanchez:
Age: 34
Salary: $6M
FA: 2013
2011 OBP: .332
Career OBP: .335
2011 OPS+: 106
Career OPS+: 98
2011 WAR: 1.1
Jeff Keppinger:
Age: 31
Salary: Arb eligible, expected raise from $2.3M
FA: 2013
2011 OBP: .300
Career OBP: .332
2011 OPS+: 89
Career OPS+: 92
2011 WAR: 0.6
All of the above mentioned players could reasonably be on the trade market between now and July 31st. If 2B is a weak spot in our lineup this year I could definitely see us acquiring one of these MIF’s.
by rumors on Dec 12, 2011 12:54 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Man those guys are bad.
Seems like only a few guys on that list even project to be as good as Descalso. Only Ramirez or Hill would be definite, solid upgrades.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
Yeah I like Hill
He should be cheap in a trade as well.
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 8:22 AM EST up reply actions
wat
St. Louis offered to pay $225 million over 10 years for Pujols (with a trade clause), a figure that many already considered to be too high for an aging player. Pujols grew increasingly frustrated that St. Louis wouldn’t drop the trade clause
wtf am i even reading
WAT
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 12, 2011 1:25 AM EST up reply actions
what the hell is a trae clause?
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 1:25 AM EST up reply actions
basically they told him they were going to put him in the bullpen
by prophetjohn on Dec 12, 2011 1:30 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
oh you minx
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 1:31 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
it came up on the twitters and i was like let's see what this says
it was dumb enough i felt i should share
I've got a pretty good bleacherreport.com-less streak going,
I think I’ll keep it that way.
Sign Cody Ross
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 12, 2011 1:36 AM EST up reply actions
"A trade clause?!"
“I want NO trade clause! NO TRADE CLAUSE!”
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 12, 2011 1:52 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
OT: Charles Mingus's eggnog recipe
i think i just lost several IQ points trying to read and understand this.
1. Separate one egg for one person. Each person gets an egg.
2. Two sugars for each egg, each person.
3. One shot of rum, one shot of brandy per person.
4. Put all the yolks into one big pan, with some milk.
5. That’s where the 151 proof rum goes. Put it in gradually or it’ll burn the eggs.
6. OK. The whites are separate and the cream is separate.
7. In another pot— depending on how many people— put in one shot of each, rum and brandy. (This is after you whip your whites and your cream.)
8. Pour it over the top of the milk and yolks.
9. One teaspoon of sugar. Brandy and rum.
10. Actually you mix it all together.
11. Yes, a lot of nutmeg. Fresh nutmeg. And stir it up.
12. You don’t need ice cream unless you’ve got people coming and you need to keep it cold. Vanilla ice cream. You can use eggnog. I use vanilla ice cream.
13. Right, taste for flavor. Bourbon? I use Jamaica Rum in there. Jamaican Rums. Or I’ll put rye in it. Scotch. It depends. See, it depends on how drunk I get while I’m tasting it.
Sign Yoennis Céspedes?
"That's where the 151 proof rum goes"
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 1:38 AM EST up reply actions
Hopefully this screenname will be less annoying with a sig and and an avatar.
I AM ACTUALLY STLCARDSFAN4 JUST TO CLARIFY YOUR POSSIBLE CONFUSION.
dump the all caps it's annoying
n00b
"He’s not a great golden god come from the sky. He’s a fucking baseball player."
-the red baron
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 12, 2011 1:49 AM EST up reply actions
Hey man, give him some time to understand some of the social dynamics of the blog
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 12, 2011 1:54 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
nick just wants
to pick on somebody. no more will he have to be the ass of everyone’s jokes here… ;)
lame
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 1:49 AM EST up reply actions
Who lost a bet?
YOU lost a bet!
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 12, 2011 1:55 AM EST up reply actions
screams attention whore
Swing and a high drive to center field...GET UP BABY...GET UP BABY, GET UP...OH YEAH - Shannon, Gm 6
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Dec 12, 2011 2:16 AM EST up reply actions
I'm already a rec whore so not a far stretch here.
I AM ACTUALLY STLCARDSFAN4 JUST TO CLARIFY YOUR POSSIBLE CONFUSION.
basically states that he is a very sensitive man with a fragile ego that needs constant stroking
among other things
yeah i always thought bernie had self-esteem issues
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 2:14 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Frustrating thing about posting about the Cards elsewhere on the internet #4,301
There are still a lot of people — maybe even most people — who think Schumaker is a good defensive outfielder simply because he’s kinda short (so he must be fast!) and has a good arm.
No amount of explaining can change this.
If he can play 2B
Clearly he’s a great OFer, right? [/sarcasm]
I am a college student that sleeps with a St. Louis Cardinals Fredbird Pillow Pet, and I am proud of it.
lol thing is he CAN'T play 2B
which is why he’s a bad OFer
Chief Economist of Tyler Greene Fanclub
by Cardinals645 on Dec 12, 2011 3:10 AM EST up reply actions
i hope the redbirds get Beltran
He was fun to watch in SF this past season even though he was there only 2 months , he seemed to be a great clutch hitter when he was healthy.
"Thats fucking Little League shit , if you're going to flip the bat , I'm going to flip your helmet next time " Steve Kline at Jimmy Rollins in his rookie year.
by riftraftredbird on Dec 12, 2011 2:25 AM EST reply actions
just as long as he isn't facing waino
Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2011 2:26 AM EST up reply actions
yeah waino beat him up
Giants said he was solid in the clubhouse too .
"Thats fucking Little League shit , if you're going to flip the bat , I'm going to flip your helmet next time " Steve Kline at Jimmy Rollins in his rookie year.
by riftraftredbird on Dec 12, 2011 2:28 AM EST reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Viva El Birdos
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- College player makes impossible over the fence catch to save tournament game (Video)
- Security!: Camden Yards guard collides with Royals’ Mike Moustakas
- The Juice: Nelson Cruz matches career high eight RBIs, Pujols stays hot in Seattle
- Benches clear at Fenway as Red Sox-Rays rivalry heats up
- Keeping good company: Albert Pujols becomes fourth-youngest player to hit 450 home runs
