on the fence
There are plenty of things I'm on the fence about after the magnificent ending to the 2011 season. World Series champs again, and it feels sooooo much better than it did in 2006 (in my opinion anyway, I think most would agree). But something happened after that that was at least a little bittersweet. Tony Larussa retired after an era in Cardinals baseball had become obvious that it was complete.
I joined VEB back during the end of spring training 2008 (or was that 2007?). Anyway, it was right before the season started. I remember Hardcore Legend once describing to me why people did not like Larussa as much as I would have thought at the time. I tended to disagree, still thinking Larussa was some kind of genius mastermind. I think VEB in general was saying it was all smoke and mirrors, and that he was not actually that good of a manager (of course there were a few exceptions). At the time I did have some inkling what they were talking about, but did not think about it much (and in the past, not at all). In fact I thought it was a little suspect, considering Tony's track record, especially since winning in 2006 with a not so great team... and somehow righting the ship in 2007 so that the team still did have a chance (which was on Ankiel's shoulders too much.... I'm still rather disappointed about how the HGH thing played out. it's times like that where I can hate sports journalism, or whatever it was).
But going forward, after I had time to absorb why many criticized Larussa, reading game threads and comments, I started to realize what they were talking about. Tony seemed to be getting a little worse with age, to put it lightly. Did we ever see Adam Kennedy deployed as he was in 2008? To me it almost seemed sarcastic or a joke to play someone like Adam Kennedy in the outfield 10 times, 6 of them starts? What was going on there? AK would be one of the lesser talked about people who either disgruntled TLR or vice versa: Tony totally getting under your nerves and your goat.
So I'm on the fence about Larussa retiring. I will kind of miss the weirdness and balancing act. He was certainly not a bad manager; in fact he excelled in many areas and is obviously effective enough. But we will not miss the bizarre bullpen choices and deployment, nor will we miss infielders playing the outfield (ok, trying Tyler Greene out in center field maybe wasn't the worst idea). But enough about Tony Larussa. His era in Cardinals baseball is over and will be remembered well.
I'm also on the fence about Rafael Furcal and Nick Punto. That combo sounds very nice as the Cardinals middle infield. In 2010, Furcal was worth 4.2 WAR in 428 plate appearances. This is a premium player with injuries or limitations... not unlike Lance Berkman was before 2011. While having an off year this season, he still showed signs of regression back to his younger self and was a key component to the Cardinals 2011 season. Punto also was important, especially towards the end of the season after overcoming many injuries. Nick "The Shredder" Punto accumulated 1.8 WAR in only 166 plate appearances. The pointman just loved to hit as a Cardinal, displaying his best offensive performance ever (123 wRC+!).
But the main issue is obvious: Both are older and missed significant playing time. This is not necessarily a bad thing... them missing playing time would allow more playing time for Tyler Greene and other young infielders (comparatively). But the issue is contracts: how much do you pay someone who will be considered a starter but is really more of a platoon player? I think we have to let one of them walk.... my guess is that it would be Furcal, since he will command a larger contract. I'm most comfortable with this scenario. Punto should cost significantly less, and plays even better defense, not to mention it would be very interesting to see if Nick Punto can maintain anything remotely close to a .319 BABIP/.350 wOBA.
And of course, many of us are on the fence about the Albert Pujols contract. Just how many years will he get? If it's a lot how much will he get at the end of the contract? How does having Lance Berkman and Allen Craig on the roster effect all this? It's hard to tell how this will play out... without Albert right field has a better defender in Allen Craig, but a worse defender at first with Berkman (but probably not that much worse). With Albert is still my preference. But how much will that preference cost?
There some things I'm not on the fence about. I think the starting rotation is set, and Mozeliak won't be considering that unless there is some kind of ancillary move involved that involves more positions. Also I don't think I'm on the fence about Skip Schumaker and Ryan Theriot. There just isn't much room on the roster for both... and in my opinion the team would be better served cutting ties with them. If they keep one, I'm a little confused as to which would be better. Theriot is better at playing second base, but does it matter at this point? I guess it'll depend on if Punto re-signs.
As for the bullpen, it is likely to continue to be a work in progress. I'm not totally convinced Motte should be the de facto closer yet, but I would be far from opposed to that. I don't know what to think of Boggs, but he is cost controlled and I am not ready to write him off yet. Hopefully Mozeliak will show what he can really do now in roster construction. Which will depend on who they hire as manager....
That too I can't decide on. My choice picks of who has been mentioned are Maloney, Matheny, or longtime favorite Oquendo seems to be fine options. Tough choice and big shoes to fill. Sometimes its really nice just to be a fan.
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Good points, CFIC
Tried to list ARF side of Tony the other day by compiling his all doghouse team, and then I tried to find a common thread or maybe common threat. In no particular order -
Ozzie Smith, Anthony Reyes, Adam Kennedy, JD Drew, Scott Rolen, Colby Rasums, Eli Marrero, Branden Ryan – sort of an equal-opportunity list in terms of ethnicity and position. Whom did I miss?
Sort of the flip side of this is Tony’s infatuation with players like Miles, Chris Duncan and Ankiel long after it was obvious their presence was hurting the team. . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Adam Kennedy had 36 G and 23 GS at 1B this year, and 27 G and 24 GS at 3B
It could be worse
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
thanks for commenting guys
zero comments is a lonely fanpost
11!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 9, 2011 1:48 PM EST reply actions
You're never forever alone here
RE-SIGN EVERYONE
by Notorious PSC on Nov 9, 2011 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
Value your posts and pics hugely. Keep 'um coming . . . Whom do you see at the next manager?
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
I think it's gonna be Matheny
but that’s partly biased. if I had to guess, it would be him though.
11!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 9, 2011 10:13 PM EST up reply actions
Think maybe Oquendo with MM taking Oquendo's role or Maloney moving to Oquendo's spot and Matheny . . .
. . going to Memphis.
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Good post for the start of hot stove season.
The TLR conundrum is too big a topic to get a grip on here. I assume most of us will never overcome our ambivalence about the guy, the sixteen years of weird moves, player conflicts, dull strategy and a gazillion wins, so I won’t try here.
Re: Punto. Having watched him play great defense year after year for the Twins at three positions I also hope we resign him. The problem is that it makes no sense to sign him as the starting 2b. He simply is not a good offensive player either as a starter or untility guy and his defensive abilities will be underutilized as a regular 2b. Had he been available for all of 2011 he would have made us a better team sooner by filling in at short and second but his offensive limits would have been exposed. By the way he also plays a great 3b but Dexcalso snarfed up that back up role to himself in Nick’s absence.
In short I hope Punto gets signed as a utility guy again but that leaves us with a problem at 2b. Solution? Dan Descalso. He’ll be better than Skip or Theriot defensively and probably hit as well. He can lend some stability to the postiion for the season or two it takes for Wong to be ready. Punto can be the back up at all three infield positions and, if he’s healthy, provide some dazzling defense at all of them.
might be interesting to try Punto at SS and Greene at 2B for starters
11!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 11, 2011 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
dirty dan can be the backup for both positions, along with whoever else
gotta get Craig plenty of playing time so I’d advocate playing him a little at 2b, 3b, and 1b (depending on what that situation is). and of course the outfield.
11!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 11, 2011 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
Punto probably is our best shortstop
but I would prefer to have Furcal’s offense there and have Nick filling in there and at the other positions. I still think Descalso would make a very decent starting 2b until Wong’s ready.
I love Allen Craig and certainly think he should get time at first as well as the corner outfield spots. I don’t want him getting hurt at 2b and he apparently is not considered a good 3b. We also are very deep at the position both with the bench and in the minors.
If we’re not planning to spend money or players on a 2b I think that DD makes the most sense there. If we sign Punto we have our utility guy and DD deserves a shot.
I think the question is how much better at offense is Furcal
11!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 12, 2011 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
if Furcal can hit somewhere between Yadi and Lynn's weight . . . .
. . . it could be a solid year waiting to see if Jackson is going to work out. I like Greene at second with some combination of Descalso, Punto, and Skip hanging around. I see those three along with Cruz and PTBNL as the bench at this point. Not sure if Hamilton sticks or not.
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Hamilton, I kind of doubt
then again, if Pujols departs it would make a heck of a lot more sense. if Pujols is on the team, then we already have 3 first basemen.
back to Furcal… he is a career .336 wOBA hitter. or .756 OPS with a .313 BABIP. so the guy is a line drive hitter and has power for sure. he is of course injury prone and his wOBA fluctuates. still, I’ll give him say .345 wOBA in 2012, which remember, he was only at .288 in 2011. but better as a Cardinal (would be nice to have 15-20 home runs from the SS!). while playing decent defense.
so I’m going to make an argument that is basically Furcal vs Punto to kind of back up my fanpost, or refute it. keep in mind Punto and Furcal are almost identical in age (punto a month older).
Punto is a career .296 wOBA hitter. his peak was in 2006 and 2008 at .324, so his peak is not even close to Furcal’s career average. he just doesn’t have as much pop, but he does have a little. his BABIP is .298 career, pretty normal. Punto is also injury prone, but my impression is that he isn’t quite as bad as Furcal for injuries (although in 2011 it seemed different).
However, another aspect was much different: his .350 wOBA in ’11. granted, a .319 BABIP is a nice booster of performance! but another aspect to this performance is that his on-base percentage was way up to .388. the little pop I mentioned can be proven by his .143 ISO in ’11, which is waaaaaaaay up. he took very well to Cardinal baseball and/or McGwire. would be interesting to hear his own impression of why he hit so well.
but the main reason I mentioned signing Punto over Furcal (if a choice is indeed going to be an issue) is that he is a career 18.1 UZR/150 as a SS. he is just a really really good defender. for contrast, Furcal is right around average, or as fangraphs says a -1.7 career defender. which to me could be anywhere from average to maybe slightly above if the stat is not working properly for him. he also makes up for that with his arm but I’m not sure if they include that data.
back to 2011… Rafael was worth .5 WAR over the season. in Furcal’s last 300 plate appearances: 7 HR 23 RBI
Punto was worth 1.8 WAR in ‘11 in 63 games. Nick had only 1 home run but more RBI in only 166 PA. Add to that he’s going to cost much less than Furcal in all likelihood. if Pujols is signed you have to let Furcal walk but keep Punto and start him at SS with Greene backing him up or playing 2B. (Descalso basically would be the same as Greene but with less hitting presumably).
11!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 13, 2011 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
Again, super analysis. What's your take on Matheny? You called it, no?
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
I suppose I did
I was thinking that they would go with a more GM over field manager approach. had some empathy for Mozeliak I guess. it always seemed like he was limited in his managerial moves by Larussa, so I’m sure he wanted to get over that. so perhaps it was a little selfish, but I can’t blame him.
having not much info to go on admittedly, I think Matheny knows the game really well. he was the precursor to Yadi and I remember his years on the team well. he could call a great game behind the plate. as fellow veb’rs have mentioned, many catchers become managers so it’s no big surprise to see him go from behind the plate to managing a team.
perhaps the biggest factor is that he is well liked by the players yet appears as a leader type personality. this I think is a great mix. from what I’ve read he’s also very familiar with the Cardinals organization on many levels so he has that wisdom. he may be unproven but I’m not too worried about it given that I think his players will both play tough under his leadership and be comfortable doing so, especially with Duncan and Oquendo likely to return.
11!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 14, 2011 2:27 AM EST up reply actions
Good on you again. I can't help but think there might be a bit more relaxed atmosphere in the clubhouse.
Think, too, that players like Carp, Yadi and Berkman will step up. Obviously, it’s still Albert’s team – if he wants it. Otherwise it’s leadership by committee – not necessarily a bad thing. . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
can't wait to see what happens with Albert
the manager thing was a big deal, but not like the Pujols contract type of big deal
11!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 14, 2011 2:15 PM EST up reply actions

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