a thanksgiving to remember
scene: the dining room in the modest st. louis area home of mike matheny's in-laws, ron and donna*
*not their real names**
**unless, by chance, they are.
mike matheny stands at the head of the dining room table. on his right sit (starting with those closest to him) adam wainwright, chris carpenter, yadier molina, and albert pujols. on his left, sit david freese, lance berkman, and matt holliday. at the foot of the table sits john mozeliak. the table bears an enormous thanksgiving spread. the players and mozeliak look expectantly at matheny as he speaks.
matheny: i want to thank you all for coming to join us. and i want to thank my wife's parents, ron and donna*(**) for having us all over for thanksgiving. i know it's not easy to forgo thanksgiving with your families, so it is a special gift to have you all with us. but it's so important to me that we be close like a family as we start our new season together. that's why i wanted to get the guys who tony always regarded as his "core" together, as well as some guys (gesturing at freese and berkman) who i think are going to be an important part of the core going forward. and i . . .
pujols: (stands up awkwardly) i just want to say thank you for inviting me, mike. i'm here because i have a lot of good friends here ( nodding at yadier) and because you and i played together, mike, and i have nothing but respect for you, mang. but i gotta say, until my contract situation is resolved, that's all i can be here for. i can't tell you i'm gonna be a cardinal, you know, because there's 29 other teams that want me. and i don't know where that process is going to end. (looks expectantly at mozeliak, who shifts in his seat) so, i really gotta have somebody pick up the phone and talk to my agent before people start assuming i'm on the team next year. (sits down)
matheny: . . . and thank you for saying that albert. we all understand the contract situation and we all know it will bew resolved soon.
mozeliak: well, not too soon. i mean, unless somebody's agent has to hurry up and get a deal so he can pay all his debts.
pujols: oh, mang, that's nothing but lies from a bunch of lowlifes on the internet got nothing better to do than make up stuff about guys in the business of baseball.
matheny: yes, and i don't want the contract situation to get in the way of . . .
mozeliak: (looking at albert) i don't know. if i were going to have a man negotiate a nine-figure contract for me, i'd want his reputation to be spotless. maybe you should lose the agent and talk directly to us, huh?
pujols: whatever, mang. you got something to say, say it to lozano.
matheny: (taken aback, waits for a few seconds with his mouth open. recovers.) okay, like i was saying, the focus here will be on next year. and albert, i think you're likely to be here, but i respect your position. i do want to talk about how the club will work and how i am going to rely on the core for leadership. now, the first part of that leadership is not being proud. while i've singled you out, i can't let the added responsibilities on you make you treat other teammates differently. that's why i'm asking you to be discreet, and not discuss with your teammates who is in the "core" and who is not. it will only lead to hurt feelings.
freese: what do you mean, discreet?
matheny: i mean that i can trust you to keep a secret.
freese: (hastily tucking a smart phone in his pocket; sotto voce) oops.
matheny: so, the first part of leadership i would like to see from the core is leadership in conditioning. everybody should let their bodies rest from the season, but by december 26th i want everybody focused on training, getting weight under control, making yourself ready for . . . .
molina: (looking at his phone) oh, dang. that ain't right.
matheny: everything ok, yadi?
molina: yeah, i just got a text from jaime.
pujols (looking at phone over molina's shoulder): i don't care who asks, i am not translating that.
molina: i think he's a little mad about being left out.
pujols (to molina): y con un caballo! (both laugh)
matheny: okay, well, there goes part one. seems like someone here has a big twitter mouth. (glares at freese, who avert his gaze)
a knock is heard at the door. a few seconds later, roger enters and speaks to matheny.
roger*(**): i thought you said just seven were coming.
matheny: i did.
roger: well, there's another guy here, says he was invited.
skip schumaker enters.
skip: it's okay, man. i'll just come join my boys. i can pull up a chair for myself. (skip moves towards the group, and drags a nearby chair to the table in between berkman and holliday.) right here, with berkman on my left and holliday on my right! better get used to that feeling, right guys! (he laughs too loudly, holliday and berkman say nothing but look uncomfortable). yup, gonna be spending a lot of time in center field. man, i'm so excited to be back with the core. 12 in '12, guys! wooo!
matheny: (loudly, as if to talk over skip) and that means i want all of you to report a few days earlier than required, to show the other guys that showing up fit and ready to play is the way to do business.
mozeliak: (to pujols) i heard a funny statistic on the radio yesterday. did you know that 210 million americans will eat nine pounds of turkey each, in a year? think about that, 210 million, and nine. those numbers sound . . . real interesting together, don't they.
pujols: mang, that doesn't even make any sense.
mozeliak: or maybe it was 215 million.
pujols: just stop, mang.
mozeliak: 220 million.
skip: hey, mike, thanks for having us all over. this food looks delicious. i wonder if i could have a plate. (turns to mozeliak) hey, jonny! what's up? hey, my agent's been trying to call you, but i think your secretary's not getting thos messages to you. let's sit down, soon, okay? you don't want to let a core guy slip out of your fingers, right?
mozeliak: (chuckling awkwardly) yeah, you see, skip we're still talking about . . . what to do in your case. you should hear from us soon.
doorbell rings. kyle lohse enters, followed by a somewhat angry roger. matheny waves off roger.
lohse: (drags a chair up to sit next to albert and yadi) oh, here's where you guys were meeting. don't worry about me, you can start, mike.
matheny (getting frazzled): all right, where were we? conditioning . . leadership . . . spring training. oh, yes. so when you get to spring training, there will be a new, tougher exercise regimen, for everybody.
lohse: hey, albert, i saw a picture of your agent, dan on the internet. he was licking a fuzzy snowcone! he is so silly! i would never do that. he should have just gotten a new one!
molina leans in, whispering to lohse.
lohse: (looking confused) why would anyone do that?
molina leans in again, whispering.
lohse: (conspiratorial) ohhhhhhh! i see.
matheny: (gives up) well, guys, why don't we just give thanks for what we have. now, lets all eat up!
stifled snickers are heard around the table.
284 comments
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Comments
You know what's awesome about having a Ham for Thanksgiving?
Having Ham and Beans and cornbread for the next several days thereafter!
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 10:24 AM EST reply actions
I did. As a young man was nonplussed by Ham and Beans
But as a more taste refined older man, I love Ham and Beans, and always did love sweet, buttered, yellow cornbread. Ummmm Cornbread…….
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
dun dun dun
skip schumaker enters.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 26, 2011 10:41 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
DUN DUN DUN
…wearing a cape, the cloak of immobility.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Nov 26, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions 7 recs
HAHAHAHAHA
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
Would that be the +3 cloak of Immobility
that gets handed down by one grizzled to another?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 26, 2011 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
Crap
Preview butt-on is yo’ fren, dumbass.
*grizzled vet, of course.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 27, 2011 1:40 AM EST up reply actions
Anniversary of Joe Medwick's Birth
This writeup on Joe “Ducky” Medwick is really terrific.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Very entertaining tom, thanks
Was expecting Lohse was going to have the TLR gear on :)
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 10:46 AM EST reply actions
He'd have bulk up and curl his hair
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 27, 2011 8:59 AM EST up reply actions
you know through this adam wainwright is poking carp on the arm
possibly trying to get him to pull his finger
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Mitchell and Ness saga cont.
My order did not go through. However, sizes that were out of stock yesterday, were back in stock today. Matty / scoot, double check to see if what you were after is available.
Also, I printed a receipt this time.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I was just going to post this very bit of information for you.
Mitchell and Ness has restocked.
I’m giving some very serious consideration to a Jackie Robinson jersey.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I went with the Musial that I really wanted, and the 34 Dizzy.
I’m very happy today.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I've long had a '44 Musial.
I purchased a ’67 grey Gibson and the ’82 blue McGee.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
My order's in but showing as "in process" and "unshipped" on the receipt
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
Not surprising.
It’s the holiday weekend. I suspect none will ship until Monday at the earliest.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Yeah I'm cool with it, but at $12 bucks for shipping c'mon
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
Pony Express ain't cheap.
"…this crowd is on their feet for the Canadian Star Spangled Banner." - Mike Shannon
\mm/
by ducttape16 on Nov 26, 2011 7:52 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Nostalgic bastages
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 9:59 PM EST up reply actions
what does matt have to do with it
…..wait.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I bought one
I assume my order went through since they took my money
bollocks
by SecondHalfMatt on Nov 27, 2011 1:47 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
TBH, I'll wear them.
I might make a shadow box with one of them, though.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I feel slightly silly wearing a jersey anymore
but I strongly considered getting one to frame. I’ve resisted temptation thus far.
#HappySeason
by The Continental on Nov 26, 2011 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
I don't feel silly,
as I’ve long ago quit giving a damn what people thought of me.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
i would mostly only wear them to games
or maybe on big game days.
people just assumed i was a fairweather fan, i imagine, because you don’t often see me in cardinal gear until they’re damn near in the world series
thanks
I let mrs. scoot know and they are now out of stock in my size. Guess I’ll see in about a month if I’m going to get mine.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
How are the first weeks of fatherhood treating you?
Getting any sleep?
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Nov 26, 2011 5:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'm getting plenty sleep
but I haven’t been back to work yet. Monday is my first day back, so we’ll see how that goes. We are breastfeeding so I don’t have much to do at night.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Mine had acid reflux
Until we got that sorted out, nights were awful
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Nov 26, 2011 11:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
i've had acid reflux 3 times this week after drinking coffee
that shit ain’t gonna fly, i gotta put a stop to that
Balls
Interesting breakdown
of Albert’s 2004 contract, in the context of the Lozano allegations, from Brian Walton.
#HappySeason
by The Continental on Nov 26, 2011 11:41 AM EST reply actions
Good stuff
Felt like actual journalism
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 26, 2011 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
that's a great article
it’s good to see actual thought and work in sports journalism
and we won the world series.
by YesWeOquendo on Nov 26, 2011 7:41 PM EST up reply actions
Brian Walton is very good.
However, I think he missed some important details in that post (the contract that was signed was not the only one offered) and he’s way too quick to dismiss the value of having a client like Albert signed long-term. He gets stuck on the idea of “immediate financial windfall” and “near-term profits” without considering that, while the immediate gain for that year is the same, whether he signs that extension or loses arbitration, the long-term benefits vs risk for Lozano of getting signed now as opposed to waiting a year are heavily weighted towards signing the extension.
If Albert goes to arbitration, Lozano gets x% of that one year, but is at risk for any future payout until that future contract is signed. However, if Albert inks a long-term deal, Lozano will get his future cut each year, for the length of the contract, regardless of whether Albert retains him or not. Depending on Lozano’s cut, that’s probably somewhere between 600K and $1.5M/yr. From the agent’s perspective, that’s certainly a significant incentive to “git’r’dun”, especially if he was concerned that Albert would drop him, or if he thought his job with BHSC was on the line.
It’s definitely not enough to say that there was something amiss with the contract signing, but the possibility is very real.
"Now that they've come out with that great stat, 'innings pitched per inning'-- is there anything they don't have a stat for these days?" -Al Hraboski, 3 Jun 11
I feel like there's a joke there
but I can’t come up with one.
"…this crowd is on their feet for the Canadian Star Spangled Banner." - Mike Shannon
\mm/
by ducttape16 on Nov 26, 2011 11:06 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
on the internet, they get eight percent.
ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann
by tom s. on Nov 27, 2011 4:54 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
there it is
good job
"…this crowd is on their feet for the Canadian Star Spangled Banner." - Mike Shannon
\mm/
by ducttape16 on Nov 27, 2011 10:08 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
wikipedia says 4-10%...
anyway, the numbers I used for the BOE calculation were {4, 8}. 3-5% would be ~$435-725K, still not ashtray money.
"Now that they've come out with that great stat, 'innings pitched per inning'-- is there anything they don't have a stat for these days?" -Al Hraboski, 3 Jun 11
Boras gets 5% (confirmed in a bunch of places) and I severely doubt there’s an agent getting more than that. Rosenhaus for football gets 3% etc.
But yeah it’s a lot of cash.
Not afraid to nitpick
yeah, and the exact % is a red herring
the point is, a “logical” Lozano decision in 2004 based on analysis of risk/reward (to Lozano) could easily have led to an outcome that was not in Pujols’ best interest. 6 years at even $435K/yr sure beats one year at (best_case_arb_2004*commission).
BTW, looks like I used {4, 10} above, not {4, 8}.
"Now that they've come out with that great stat, 'innings pitched per inning'-- is there anything they don't have a stat for these days?" -Al Hraboski, 3 Jun 11
You could get a lot of
let’s say company for that.
"…this crowd is on their feet for the Canadian Star Spangled Banner." - Mike Shannon
\mm/
by ducttape16 on Nov 27, 2011 1:01 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
like most things i bet the truth is somewhere in between both stories
while i’m sure danny’s no saint i don’t a word deadspin has to say. they are nothing but a tabloid now that Will is gone. i think there could have been a personal reason danny pushed Albert to sign, but Albert also wanted a long term deal. so maybe he got lucky that both Albert & the Cardinals wanted a long term deal & they agreed to the numbers. and didn’t Mo do most of the negotiations back then? wouldn’t he have known if danny was too motivated to get a deal done? teams aren’t stupid, they can tell when an agent is up to no good.
i doubt we’ll ever know the real truth.like i said it’s probably somewhere in between the two stories. none of this matters though if Albert comes back.
Balls
Oh man this was so funny
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
Since the Ludwick/Westbrook trade (and not looking at contract situations)...
Ryan Ludwick has been worth 0.1fWAR over about 800 PAs.
Jake Westbrook has been worth 2.4 fWAR in about 258 innings.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 26, 2011 12:20 PM EST reply actions
I didn't so much have a problem with Ludwick for Westbrook...
it was moreso that more wasn’t done. Colby for Jackson/etc. may have had similar results had it not been for the additional acquisition of Furcal
#12in12
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Nov 26, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
brass monkey just played on the radio
haha
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
RFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Ludwick kinda looks like a guy who's aged really badly, really quickly.
That said, if we can’t get Albert signed, AND Ludwick is struggling to find a deal, there would probably be worse guys to spend $3-4m on.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 27, 2011 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
The last few teams who've signed Luddy on have not had much luck with their seasons...curse?
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 27, 2011 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
you might have something there.
wick
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 27, 2011 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
ah good point....wick-ed witches curse team who signs him
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 27, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
well, it would mean my prophecy was wrong. or reversed.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 27, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
Embarassing Riches
With all the caaaaauuuush that the Cards made with the “Miracle of 11”, It’s just exciting to play all the options possible for 12.
Albert should be in St. Louis. To not is to lose millions! We are the Cardinal Way, graduated from Cardinal Nation (sorry Mike!) We need Albert’s statue in front of Busch.
Nice piece of work on Lozano, but it seems he is a piece of work.
welcome to VEB!
"Now that they've come out with that great stat, 'innings pitched per inning'-- is there anything they don't have a stat for these days?" -Al Hraboski, 3 Jun 11
and chose an avatar
Welcome Alan W. Seaton!
BTW is this you? linky
If so you seem like one hell of a guy, welcome aboard. Interesting how all folks who comment about you look the same.
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
who me? I just found it interesting that his login was an actual name so i googled it to see if it was a player
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
Doesn't it just look better without the players in bold?
Depth Chart (if Pujols re-signs)
1B – Pujols, Berkman, Craig, Hamilton, Adams
2B – Descalso, Schumaker, Kozma, Jackson
SS – Greene, Kozma, Jackson
3B – Freese, Carpenter, Cox
C – Molina, Cruz, Anderson, Hill
LF – Holliday, Craig, Schumaker, Chambers, Robinson, Luna, Pham
CF – Jay, Schumaker, Chambers, Robinson, Pham
RF – Berkman, Craig, Schumaker, Chambers, Robinson, Luna, Pham
SP – Wainwright, Carpenter, Garcia, Lohse, Westbrook, Lynn, McClellan, Miller, Dickson, Ottavino
RP – Motte, Salas, Sanchez, Lynn, McClellan, Boggs, Reifer, Dickson, Cleto, Ottavino, Fick
LRP- Rzepcynski, Additon, Freeman, Gast
Theriot not included for obvious reasons.
#12in12
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Nov 26, 2011 1:51 PM EST reply actions
There's nothing really wrong with Hamilton or Robinson
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
they are both 27 years old
and have combined for about 100 MLB PA"s. We aren’t the only ones that feel this way.
#12in12
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Nov 26, 2011 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
I mean, they're like our 4th or 5th options
They’re not bad depth to have in an organization
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
yeah, robinson can at least play defense well
i wouldn’t release either of them. i think i’d outright hamilton off the 40-man, though. he’s pretty much worthless imo
At this point,
they are both AAA bench players. Wouldn’t really matter if they got released and they definitely don’t need to have 40-man spots.
#12in12
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Nov 26, 2011 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
Robinson has some skills- decent contact, defense.
Hamilton is awful.
"Congratulations to the Cardinals! Such a fun world series." - Salman Rushdie
I know SSS, but from what I have seen of
Robinson, he looks completely overmatched at the plate in the majors. I wouldnt even classify him as a ‘decent-contact’ hitter.
by mick311 on Nov 26, 2011 2:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I kinda go the other way
presumably you can get a passable defensive OF with no hitting skills just about anywhere, but Hamilton has at least shown some ability with the bat in AAA. Neither are worth much of anything though.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 27, 2011 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed on Hamilton.
He’s had wRC+’s of 138, 144, and 134 over the last three years in AAA, with increasing walk rates and decreasing K rates. He’s 27, so there’s no upside, but he’s not awful. He compares favorably with other guys like Brandon Allen, Chris Carter, Brett Wallace, Mat Gamel, and Clint Robinson. Is he that much worse than Justin Smoak? (a scary question for Seattle fans)
by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 26, 2011 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
You sonofa
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
he's also a first baseman and not a very good one at that
his numbers are going to have to be better than that when his most recent 134 wRC+ is driven by a .403 (!) BABIP to have any kind of value at the big league level
i think he looks like a below average bat with questionable power and no other skills. to me, that’s a replacement or below player.
40 man rosters are filled with replacement level guys
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
That's kinda the definition of what "replacement value" is
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Nov 26, 2011 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
not really, but it's not the point anyway
the point is whether or not mark hamilton, specifically, is the best use of the roster spot he is occupying for the st. louis cardinals, specifically
yeah
but it seems like the cardinals are in a perpetual roster crunch. if there is no one that absolutely needs his slot, i guess it doesn’t matter that a player who has no value to the team and little chance of any future with the organization is taking up a slot. i think that’s very unlikely to be the case. i also think it’s very unlikely that when we have that kind of role to fill in the short term that hamilton is the best to fill the role
he’s not just replacement level, he’s dead weight.
And wears stupid looking "I'm cocky" glasses while playing base ball
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 4:44 PM EST up reply actions
And when he had a 144 wRC, he had a .335 BABIP. (PCL has a higher median BABIP than ML)
He was as good a hitter in 2009 and 2010 as Allen Craig in AAA. I don’t have any information suggesting he’s some kind of butcher in field.
If you mean he’s a 0 WAR by your comments, I wouldn’t agree.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 26, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
I've wondered how Hamilton went from 18 HR in about 300 2010 PAs to 2 HR in about 300 2011 PAs for Memphis.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
He dropped his K rate significantly (and upped his walk rate) - could have been a change in approach.
Probably some random luck (he hit a lot of doubles), maybe an injury, don’t really know.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 26, 2011 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, 2010 was a decent season
but he’s moving in the wrong direction for a 27-year-old that doesn’t have a role in the organization. and his 2009 season has the same BABIP woes as 2011. the thing with allen craig is that he did it consistently.
and yes, i mean he’s 0 WAR in the majors. maybe worse
Yeah, your comments comparing Craig and Hamilton don't make sense to me.
And I don’t think his stats project him to be 0 WAR or worse unless you have some special insight on his defense that says he’s a -20 fielder. Sounds more like offhand speculation (which is fine).
I could easily see Hamilton putting up a 1 WAR year – his offensive profile compares favorably (or better in some cases) to Garrett Jones, Justin Smoak, Mike Carp, James Loney, and Derrek Lee – all between .5 WAR (with bad defense) and 2.3 WAR (with good defense) last year.
Hamilton is a comparable player to Mat Gamel, who’s the leading internal option to replace Fielder. Are Mat Gamel or Garret Jones great? No, of course not, but they’re not useless on a 40man nor are they awful or dead weight, IMO.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 26, 2011 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
it is mostly offhand speculation,
but it’s not completely unfounded speculation. if you look at his TZ numbers at b-r (best i can find), they’re all average or below. and the only occasion where he needs to be a 20 fielder to be below replacement level is if he’s a league average hitter over a full season. i think his numbers from last year - and most of his recent numbers, save 2010 — suggest that he’s about a league average hitter when the league is the PCL
derrek lee is the player i know best from that list of comparisons and i think his disappointing 2011 is wildly optimistic for hamilton. lee had 19 HRs last season to hamilton’s 2 and those 19 HRs were largely what was driving his about average wOBA. now consider that lee is an above average defender and as well as i can tell hamilton is below average and you’ve got a player with 1 WAR upside over 500 PAs. also a player who is blocked at the MLB level this season regardless of pujols’ situation and has a player who looks to be much better right behind him. and by all accounts, adams should get the bulk of the 1B PT this year in memphis
I don't think his TZ numbers from the NY-Penn league 5 years ago say much.
His RTZ numbers in AA and AAA are at 1 and – 1 ( and it’s conceivable he’s improved in the last two years). Again, I don’t see much here, much less something here to say he’s awful. I’m not even sure there’s much difference in defensive talent between AAA and ML 1B.
Do you think the Rangers should just cut Mitch Moreland? You think the Mariners should just cut Mike Carp? How about the Indians’ Matt LaPorta?Garret Jones? All these guys are similar to Hamilton – about the same age, defensively limited, similar offensive profile.
As for Adams, I will wait and see. He had a 137wRC+ in AA. I like his short powerful swing. He needs to drop 25 pounds.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 26, 2011 6:36 PM EST up reply actions
i didn't say that the cardinals should "just cut" hamilton
i wouldn’t release either of them. i think i’d outright hamilton off the 40-man, though
is what i said. and then later added, that it doesn’t really matter, if someone else doesn’t need a spot, but that i imagine that the inevitable roster crunch will come.
and i don't know anything about those other guys except garret jones
i don’t think it would be an atrocity if they cut him, but it’s probably a good idea to keep him around as depth since he has nice power
the cardinals are also in a significantly different position than most of those teams you mention, especially the pirates
Ok, fine. You said he's dead weight, probably below replacement value, and that you'd outright off the 40 man.
I don’t see much difference between this and saying you’d cut him. You clearly don’t care that remains on the team and would risk losing him on waivers. but true, you didn’t actually say “cut” him.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 26, 2011 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, that's an accurate characterization of my feelings
in the context of this team. he’s third on the depth chart right now. fourth if pujols signs and fifth if you like adams better.
if he gets claimed on waivers, i see it as no great loss
We're talking about the margins of the Cards roster and a guy who I think is a .5 to 1.5 WAR player
So it obviously wouldn’t be an atrocity if he were cut.
But with that in mind, I still think there’s a role for Hamilton. He’s third on the depth chart, IMO, even if Albert signs. Adams is not currently in front of him. And if Albert were out and Berkman or Craig were hurt, Hamilton would likely play first and either Berkman/Craig would play RF.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 26, 2011 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
i disagree that that's how that scenario would play out
he’s definitely 4th on the first base depth chart if albert signs. and i think there’s just as much likelihood of using the outfield depth in the event that there’s no albert and berk or craig get hurt
Assuming Albert doesn't sign (or is hurt)
Berkman plays 1b and Craig plays RF.
Now assume either Berkman or Craig is hurt, then who plays where in your scenario?
I don’t see why I should prefer Craig/berkman at 1B and Chambers in the OF over Craig/berkman in RF and Hamilton at 1B. I guess you could move Freese to 1B and use MCarp at 3b with Craig/Berk in RF, but again, I don’t see why that’s better than Hamilton playing 1B.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 26, 2011 7:52 PM EST up reply actions
i think there's only a conversation if it's berkman who gets hurt
the only reason he’ll play in the OF is if albert signs.
if berk is the one hurt, chambers or hamilton is probably a wash, assuming adams isn’t lighting the world on fire at that point
I'd disagree with the first part.
if Albert doesn’t sign, Hamilton is berk’s backup at 1b. At that point, imo, if there’s an injury to Holliday, Berk, or Craig, it’s a wash between Chambers and Hamilton (offense vs. defense) if you move the other pieces around. And yet we’re not having a discussion about how Chambers is dead weight and should be outrighted.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 26, 2011 8:19 PM EST up reply actions
Pham if he can stay healthy.
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
oh wait, this is about the 40 man...
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
At that point, imo, if there’s an injury to Holliday, Berk, or Craig, it’s a wash between Chambers and Hamilton (offense vs. defense)
FWIW I’m not sure I agree with that. I think (this is based entirely on a guesstimation of his defense based on my view of the guy and some of his more recent numbers) Berkman is probably still around average in the field at 1B, whilst he’s probably about a -15 corner outielder, which I believe would make him about 0.5 to 1 WAR more valuable at 1B.
IF that’s the case, and we assume Chambers (or Matt Carpenter in the OF) is of equal value to Mark Hamilton at 1B, we’d be better off sticking Berkman at 1B and keeping Hamilton off the team.
And FWIW, whilst I tend to agree that Hamilton is probably more useful to us than the likes of Shane Robinson, I fail to see a massive distinction between a 27-year-old, positionally limited AAAA hitter and a guy like Kyle McClellan who you have (rightly) argued is relatively worthless to us in 2012. And just to get this straight, this isn’t an argument that we should cut Hamilton (although, as Matt Adams should probably be up in AAA now, moving him full-time to LF with a view to cutting him in 2013 might be sensible).
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 27, 2011 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
Don't agree on Hamilton. Cleto should be in the starters camp.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 26, 2011 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
What about Kelly or Swaggerty,
Do you think either of those guys have a chance to start? I know Kelly probably projects as starter a little bettee because of his gb%, but how far away do you think either of those guys are?
I mean, Swaggert pitched really well last year, isn’t he probably ahead of guys like Ottavino, Dickson, Fick on the BP depth chart?
by mick311 on Nov 26, 2011 3:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Right now Swagerty is behind those guys,
but it shouldn’t take very long for him to surpass them.
#12in12
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Nov 26, 2011 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
I think Kelly and Swagerty have "a chance" to start.
I think they’ll surpass those guys you mention but they’re behind right now, just because they’ll be back in AA next year, IMO. Someone like Dickson could be a long man in a ML pen right now.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 26, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
FWIW I think Kelly is pretty over-rated
Swagerty I really like but tbh if you look at the trends of Kelly’s numbers as he’s ascended the levels in the minors, I really don’t see him as anything more than a hard-throwing Brad Thompson type in the majors, and I think it’s possible he doesn’t make it in any meaningful way at all. I reckon Mitchell Boggs is probably his ceiling.
OTOH I think Swagerty’s probably got a slim chance to start but otherwise probably ends up as a useful swingman or set-up guy.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 27, 2011 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
So I'm watching this documentary called "Last Play at Shea" (released in 2010)
and Keith Hernandez just described Game 6 of the 86 World Series as the greatest comeback ever…not anymore Keith! WOOOOOOOOOOO!
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Nov 26, 2011 3:23 PM EST reply actions
bs
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Why not. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOs and BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOBs
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
In fairness
He was probably pretty messed up at the time.
"…this crowd is on their feet for the Canadian Star Spangled Banner." - Mike Shannon
\mm/
by ducttape16 on Nov 26, 2011 7:56 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
veb's 2nd music mix for 2011 fanpost up
for a rainy saturday (well, at least it is here). enjoying 4 days straight off from work!
11!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 26, 2011 4:18 PM EST reply actions
if you had to choose only one
Would it be Pujols or Holliday?
by setitan on Nov 26, 2011 6:29 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Probably Holliday, for my money's worth
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter
Holliday for future production..just hope he doesn't engage in HR derby next year, or get moth in ear, appendicitis, suffer muscle strains while trying to come back from aforementioned injuries to fast, etc.
Pujols for Iconic, so far, STL Cards player and the desire to see him finish career with us. Hopefully w/o crippling us going forward.
Actually, I’ve never been sorry we signed Holliday, including this year.
Mo, can we have both?
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
i would tend to believe that Albert will produce more over the rest of their careers
i would even say it’s likely to be a goodly bit more. the question is, is it worth the money? and the answer, i think, is no. the Holliday contract is really quite good.
So you concur then
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 10:02 PM EST up reply actions
Pujols
no question. Holliday is the same age and I see no reason to assume he will age better than Pujols. Combine that with the fact that Pujols has always been better (seriously, Holliday is a damn good player but has never really approached Pujols’ level) I don’t see how one could choose Holliday. That is, if contracts are not a question. If they are it becomes way more complicated.
Consider this: 2010 was a “kinda sorta down year” for Pujols. He was worth 7.5 fWAR. Holliday’s best season was 7.7 fWAR, in 2007. With a .340 batting average and a .377 BABIP.
Yeah, Pujols is defintely a better player going forward than Holliday
But Holliday’s contract situation is very good for the next 5 years, while Pujols is likely to be here for another 8-9 years at a higher AAV. No contracts, I’d take Pujols. Contracts, I’d take Holliday.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 27, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
Right.
I know I have seen certain people hint that they somehow prefer Holliday merely on “baseball” grounds, but I think that’s ludicrous.
One of the reasons Pujols has been so good in his career is that he hits so well that he is a step above even elite Matt Holliday-type hitters. Other than 2011 anyway.
Yeah I've seen that two
Not sure what it’s based on, seems like an overreaction to the initial criticism of the Holliday trade and signing.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 27, 2011 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
Could be
I also wonder if it’s just over-analysis of Pujols being “gimpy” and whatnot. Who do we watch more closely than Pujols?
Yeah, I think so - the gimpy thing
At the same age, Holliday had (pro-rata) the 2nd best (I think) season of his career, whereas Pujols had a down year and is looking increasingly old. All that said, Albert started from a point so far ahead of Holliday (probably a good 3 WAR) at their respective “bests” that he’s still the better player, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future, I think.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 27, 2011 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
Concur with you guys on career/yearly WAR etc. but watching both of them play last year Holliday looks more fit, especially when it comes to running
If he can just keep the moths out of his ears and not take part in pointless HR derbies…and he doesn’t have an appendix anymore so that won’t be a problem
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 27, 2011 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
Ah, I said that already
And on Holliday, less $ per WAR going forward.
I would really like to have them both and look forward to watching more Berking this coming year. Also Craig, with full hopefully season on intact knees and Freese without broken hands or ankles, come to think of it, Freese’s ankles were not a problem this year.
Damn the team had a lot of injuries this year, and almost all were due to inflicted injuries, not just falling apart due to age or weaknesses, with notable exception of Waino who, hopefully is fixed now.
Go CARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 27, 2011 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
In terms of likely future value
I’d say Pujols is likely to be slightly better than Holliday going forward, but only slightly, and Pujols is going to be paid about $10m/yr more. So, Holliday.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 27, 2011 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
It would seem fang was right
I was wrong
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Nov 26, 2011 6:34 PM EST via mobile reply actions
why would anyone admit this in public?
Balls
by gdm426 on Nov 27, 2011 12:35 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Cause it's da troof?
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO
by VolsnCards5 on Nov 27, 2011 10:15 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
VT done did killed them.
i fail at teh subjunctive
by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 27, 2011 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
albert pujols will announce that he is signing with the cardinals when he returns from hawaii, say jc corcoran
You fell for it again?
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
I believe him!!
2011 wOBA: Brendan Ryan .291, Aaron Miles .291
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Nov 26, 2011 7:23 PM EST up reply actions
It does lend him some credibility that Albert did indeed go to Hawaii when he said he would.
At the very least that means he knows someone close to Albert. Who knows if he’s right about the contract stuff, but I don’t think he just pulled all this out of his ass.
not really.
we all know where Albert is. it’s in the Lozano reaction quote.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
my opinion is that pujols re-signing is inevitable
therefore, he will probably sign sooner rather than later
which means that it will happen in the next couple weeks
which would be sometime after he returns from his vacation
assuming that corcoran is using this same train of logic, i think he is just flinging shit at the wall, and it will eventually stick.
2011 wOBA: Brendan Ryan .291, Aaron Miles .291
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Nov 26, 2011 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
yes, Pujols has shown for the past three years he is ready for this to be over ASAP
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
big difference between the hypothetical market for pujols in the past couple seasons
and the current market for him now.
the reason the negotiation has played out for so long is more the front office’s doing than pujols, simply because they do not want to overpay. the cardinals set the market for him in february, and so far it doesn’t look like anyone else is going to pony up ridiculous money for him.
2011 wOBA: Brendan Ryan .291, Aaron Miles .291
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Nov 26, 2011 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
Albert picked the wrong year to have his contract expire
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 10:08 PM EST up reply actions
how about a three year extension
and he can try again then
by prophetjohn on Nov 26, 2011 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
BOOOOOOOM
"…this crowd is on their feet for the Canadian Star Spangled Banner." - Mike Shannon
\mm/
by ducttape16 on Nov 27, 2011 1:02 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
I doubt he is just hoping something sticks, because of the very specific nature of his first report
If you were just pulling something out of your ass, would you make your prediction for a specific day? He would have said “Pujols will sign sometime in the near future” or something, rather than “he will this Friday.”
but his most recent tweets have changed tone
now he is saying “soon after his return”
2011 wOBA: Brendan Ryan .291, Aaron Miles .291
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Nov 26, 2011 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
I know
but there was no reason for him to have said friday in the first place unless he had some sort of specific knowledge. If he was just spitballing, he’d have to know the likelihood of that report being correct was basically nil, and would thus destroy any credibility he had. It just doesn’t make sense unless he really believed that info.
Plus he still knew Albert was going to Hawaii before anyone else.
he does appear to have some inside knowledge from somewhere
but I find it hard to believe that of all people to break the story of the signing, it would be jc effin corcoran. I’m not quite as dismissive of his reports as most people, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he is right.
2011 wOBA: Brendan Ryan .291, Aaron Miles .291
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Nov 26, 2011 8:11 PM EST up reply actions
i thought i knew all the STL media types & i had never heard of him till two weeks ago
i still have no clue who the f he is
Balls
not a sports guy..
just a douche that goes station to station getting fired. Has had some TV gigs here and there
#12in12
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Nov 27, 2011 12:41 AM EST up reply actions
Not quite as bad as Slaten.
Just a garden variety asshat.
#HappySeason
by The Continental on Nov 27, 2011 2:15 AM EST up reply actions
they have a team in Hawaii now?
damnit
"…this crowd is on their feet for the Canadian Star Spangled Banner." - Mike Shannon
\mm/
by ducttape16 on Nov 26, 2011 8:27 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
great home field advantage
Road trips would be a bitch though.
"…this crowd is on their feet for the Canadian Star Spangled Banner." - Mike Shannon
\mm/
by ducttape16 on Nov 26, 2011 8:55 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
with all the buried pigs
I think that there would be a worse park than Houston.
"…this crowd is on their feet for the Canadian Star Spangled Banner." - Mike Shannon
\mm/
by ducttape16 on Nov 27, 2011 1:03 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
but there would have to be a lot of them
in the ground for the concession stands. Ground balls would be a bitch that much is certain.
"…this crowd is on their feet for the Canadian Star Spangled Banner." - Mike Shannon
\mm/
by ducttape16 on Nov 27, 2011 1:09 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
if you fling shit at the wall enough times, eventually you'll get a good representation of Todd Wellemeyer's face
by tehzachatak on Nov 26, 2011 8:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I just threw up in my mouth a little.
"…this crowd is on their feet for the Canadian Star Spangled Banner." - Mike Shannon
\mm/
by ducttape16 on Nov 26, 2011 8:54 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
beware the revenge of the Federated Union of Kentucky Colonels.
ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann
by tom s. on Nov 26, 2011 11:06 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
it does sorta make sense
to go on a long vacation before the media frenzy of a re-signing.
but like I said earlier, I think corcoran is just waiting for something to stick.
2011 wOBA: Brendan Ryan .291, Aaron Miles .291
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Nov 26, 2011 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
Curious how all his predictions are about Friday announcements
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
I don't put any faith in corcoran, but it is interesting
That a month after the WS, the only offer on record is the Marlins lowball offer. If we don’t see a very credible and specific offer – beyond such-and-such team is “interested” – in the next two weeks, pujols and lozano are going to have to concede they’ve overplayed the hand and sign.
ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann
by tom s. on Nov 26, 2011 8:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I wonder how long they will hold out for a better offer
it certainly seems as though the perfect storm came together for the Cardinals to keep Albert with a (relatively) team friendly contract.
The Yankees and BoSox are both out, and after every other team heard Albert had turned down 9 years and 200 mil, they basically said “too rich for my blood.”
I’m betting he signs for very close to the Cardinals’ original offer.
That was my thought as well.
Though I will say that I haven’t heard anything about offers to Prince or to Reyes (other than the Marlins offer) either.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 26, 2011 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
Marlins to sign every free agent for a total of $4,750,000.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 27, 2011 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
why? has he even talked the Rangers & Angels yet?
nothing has to be done till mid January. i don’t think this is over. not by a long shot
Balls
Nolan Ryan said the Rangers aren't interested in 1Bmen. They like Moreland for whatever reason.
And I don’t think the Angels are players. They have some decent 1B options, and they have enough bad contracts as it is. Their payroll was $141 M last year, though it will drop a little (2011 was the last year of the GMJ contract!). They project to be a very competitive team next year either.
"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment." -- Woody Allen
by Cardinals645 on Nov 27, 2011 2:18 AM EST up reply actions
most teams seem to see fielder as the better option
lower-ish aav, fewer years
i still think that pujols may get offers from toronto, seattle, and washington
2011 wOBA: Brendan Ryan .291, Aaron Miles .291
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Nov 27, 2011 3:01 AM EST up reply actions
I would be stunned if Seattle went after Pujols
They like Justin Smoak and Mike Carp at first base. They have been shedding payroll. There is a link between the Seattle GM and Fielder from when the Sea GM was the Brewers farm director.
Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.
by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 27, 2011 3:07 AM EST up reply actions
2011 was the last year of the GMJ contract!
Gary Matthews Jr – pretty top in the list of “players I’d completely forgotten existed who are getting paid 12 million dollars”.
The crazy thing is, even after getting burned on Matthews they went and did the same thing with Torii Hunter and then YET AGAIN with Vernon Wells.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 27, 2011 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
TBH I kinda hope Mozeliak plays a bit more hardball and strings it out a bit
recent history (Lohse, Holliday) has shown he’s perhaps not the best at getting a good deal in a lukewarm market for free agents.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 27, 2011 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
looking for the mafia pic where they are all pointing at the camera from d-dee's thread
higher res, and not connected to another image. google and sbn searches haven’t turned up anything.
anyone got it saved?
2011 wOBA: Brendan Ryan .291, Aaron Miles .291
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Nov 26, 2011 8:35 PM EST reply actions
its funny searching for obscure cardinals pictures on google
and seeing how many random things show up from veb.
coco crisp, success baby with the fist pump, lackey f-bomb gif
2011 wOBA: Brendan Ryan .291, Aaron Miles .291
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Nov 26, 2011 8:41 PM EST up reply actions
i take a lot of pride in the lackey gif, dammit i hate not being able to post pics anymore
and i’m still waiting for someone to put a santa hat on my “deal with it” pic y’all
Balls
tom you're officially tied for first with dan & Az as my second favorite writer
standing O from the o h i o. very well done, i laughed, i cried. and then i read it a second time so i could do it all over again
Balls
MASSIVE slap in the face for lboros!
I am, of course, assuming that WCBW is your numero uno.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 27, 2011 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
You know what they say...
dead VEB is dead.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 27, 2011 1:38 AM EST up reply actions
it's only 1:40, this is still prime time baby!
ugh, i need a real f’ing life away from a computer
Balls
Step away from the computer
Then go upstairs. Go out the door and see what’s out there
bollocks
by SecondHalfMatt on Nov 27, 2011 1:53 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
it's dark, cold & raining
much like the place where my heart used to be
Balls
by gdm426 on Nov 27, 2011 2:46 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
downer
2011 wOBA: Brendan Ryan .291, Aaron Miles .291
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Nov 27, 2011 2:59 AM EST up reply actions
If it makes you feel better
I’m sitting on the couch playing with my new magic phone checking back time to time. Not exactly the definition of being awesome.
"…this crowd is on their feet for the Canadian Star Spangled Banner." - Mike Shannon
\mm/
by ducttape16 on Nov 27, 2011 2:05 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
yeah I had been rocking the RAZR
in one form or another for 6 years and decided it was time to join the rest of the cool kids. On that note guess I need to start smoking now.
"…this crowd is on their feet for the Canadian Star Spangled Banner." - Mike Shannon
\mm/
by ducttape16 on Nov 27, 2011 10:12 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
veb hasn't been this dead since august
zing to all you fairweather fans!
2011 wOBA: Brendan Ryan .291, Aaron Miles .291
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Nov 27, 2011 2:03 AM EST up reply actions
I'm enjoying this way too much...
THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!
is anyone going to sign up for SI just to get the WS book,DVD & ball?
i really really want them
Balls
Amazon has same stuff on sale
I got 8 disk collectors set, Cards 2011 book, and Cards WS Blu Ray for about $80 – $30 for applying for their credit card. So net price was $50
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 27, 2011 8:33 AM EST up reply actions
quitter
2011 wOBA: Brendan Ryan .291, Aaron Miles .291
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Nov 27, 2011 3:03 AM EST up reply actions
so now that gdm is gone we can party right?
and we won the world series.
by YesWeOquendo on Nov 27, 2011 3:03 AM EST up reply actions
byob
2011 wOBA: Brendan Ryan .291, Aaron Miles .291
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Nov 27, 2011 3:04 AM EST up reply actions
ooooooooobs
and we won the world series.
by YesWeOquendo on Nov 27, 2011 3:15 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
this needs to catch on more
2011 wOBA: Brendan Ryan .291, Aaron Miles .291
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Nov 27, 2011 3:20 AM EST up reply actions
Damn VEB is dead, we're sitting at 204 comments as I type this
That’s like a Lone Star Ball WS thread count
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 27, 2011 8:52 AM EST up reply actions
nah you're doing it wrong. eopb
enjoy other peoples booze
and we won the world series.
by YesWeOquendo on Nov 27, 2011 3:07 AM EST up reply actions
i first tried to solve it with eat o.... p.... booze
rum ham!
2011 wOBA: Brendan Ryan .291, Aaron Miles .291
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Nov 27, 2011 3:10 AM EST up reply actions
just got back, listening to some dan deacon and maserati
how’d the holidays?
and we won the world series.
by YesWeOquendo on Nov 27, 2011 3:14 AM EST up reply actions
really great holiday season this year!
started last friday. went back to the quad cities early and celebrated early with my family there. got to do a show in rock island that was a lot of fun. had a freakin feast on saturday, watched the bears game over at my sister’s house in davenport last sunday. then went back to work for a little bit, had band practice. then went to a party the night before thanksgiving, had leftovers on t-day, went to a great beer tasting that night at a friend’s bar. saw my nephew friday and celebrated my brother’s birthday… which was out at an authentic tiki bar that’s been around for years, the limo company upgraded our ride both ways so we had a pretty ridiculous time. last night went out for bbq and listened to music with that same crew. now I’m recovering heh.
11!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 27, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
so because i'm bored im searching for cardinals gifs
a few i’ve dug out of the crevices of the internet

2011 wOBA: Brendan Ryan .291, Aaron Miles .291
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Nov 27, 2011 3:33 AM EST up reply actions
hopefully these don't end up being broken links
hotlinking a couple

2011 wOBA: Brendan Ryan .291, Aaron Miles .291
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Nov 27, 2011 3:34 AM EST up reply actions
edmonds

2011 wOBA: Brendan Ryan .291, Aaron Miles .291
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Nov 27, 2011 3:40 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
sad catcher

2011 wOBA: Brendan Ryan .291, Aaron Miles .291
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Nov 27, 2011 3:46 AM EST up reply actions
last one, all these came from posts of VEB past

2011 wOBA: Brendan Ryan .291, Aaron Miles .291
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Nov 27, 2011 3:47 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Was that Holliday?
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 27, 2011 8:37 AM EST up reply actions
cant you see his head from here
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
hahahaha
Was a really good catch, didn’t know Holliday could get that much air
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 27, 2011 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
Despite the occasional brainfart
Holliday’s pretty athletic and good in the field.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 27, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Agree, just don't recall seeing that play, which was quite a nice one
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 27, 2011 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
bah
I can’t rec through the app. Off to the real machine.
"…this crowd is on their feet for the Canadian Star Spangled Banner." - Mike Shannon
\mm/
by ducttape16 on Nov 27, 2011 10:15 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
it's still loading
but I recognize sad catcher
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
VEB is kinda slow last couple days so I went traveling around to see what others are giving thanks for
Giving of thanks over at the Red Reporter
sample comments:
from main post (several cards made their thanksgiving list:
- Tony LaRussa retired – Historically great manager, insufferable prick. Good god damned riddance.
- The Cardinals are about to make a terrible mistake – Unless I’m wrong (and it has been known to happen) the Cardinals will sign Albert Pujols to a completely unreasonable deal to ensure that he retires a Cardinal and joins the ranks of greats Stan Musial, Bob Gibson, et al. Good for them for preserving their franchise history, good for us that it will financially cripple their team with the help of the Holliday deal. By year three of that deal I think the rest of baseball will be looking on in amazement at the Titantic Pujols contract as it crashes into the Old Age iceberg.
- The St. Louis Cardinals are paying Kyle Lohse $12.2 million in 2012 – In the words of immortal comic Larry The Cable Guy, “I don’t care who ya are, that’s funny right there”. Good luck with that, shitheads.
random reply
Being thankful for Dusty
Crazy as he can make me sometimes, I have to agree. If for no other reason than, unless Francona want to come to Cincy, I don’t know who out there would be a big upgrade. As you said, he brought playoff baseball back to Cincy. The problem is, he doesn’t seem to know how he did it, which makes doing it again a little more difficult!
by matchu522 on Nov 24, 2011 8:36 AM CST reply actions
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 27, 2011 10:07 AM EST reply actions
I give thanks for the Cardinals winning the WS last year
And looking to be an excellent team next year with Adam Wainwright coming back.
But remember VEB, not everyone is as fortunate as us. Some teams have Dusty Baker as their manager and haven’t won a World Series in 20 years. We must pray for those teams and deliver bacon-filled gift baskets to them during these trying times.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 27, 2011 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
all class over there
"…this crowd is on their feet for the Canadian Star Spangled Banner." - Mike Shannon
\mm/
by ducttape16 on Nov 27, 2011 10:18 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
It's not the lack of class that bothers me
It’s the blatant, stupidly optimistic, homerism. Thankful for Dusty Baker and Aroldis Chapman, Great ownership and front office. Defending the Arroyo deal last year, defending Johnny Cueto. It’s a pure fansite, with only the front page authors giving it any sort of credibility above the PD boards.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 27, 2011 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
Cub fan showing actual Class ... Maybe
From an ex-Chicagoan living in MN…
And visiting family in WI, a happy and safe Thanksgiving to everyone. Even the Cardinals…maybe.
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 27, 2011 10:33 AM EST up reply actions
the friendly part of the rivalry.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 27, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, take a clue Red fans
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 27, 2011 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
well.
Ohio.
y’know.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 27, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
what? I'm not getting it at all
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 27, 2011 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
they might be bitter
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 27, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
your comment about the friendly part of the rivalry appears to be in response to a cubs fans thanksgiving wish to the cards, which was a nice thing
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 27, 2011 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe if they spent less energy hating the Cardinals
and more energy supporting their own team by going to games, the franchise would have the money to afford to field and keep a team that doesn’t suck.
"I don’t like the feeling of losing."---Chris Carpenter
by cardsfan59 on Nov 27, 2011 10:23 AM EST up reply actions 7 recs
Not sure why there is a dig at the Holliday contract
As has been pointed out many times, it’s not exactly a Vernon Wells or Jayson Werth contract. By the end of it we may hate it too, I dunno.
Concur. Contract signings after the Holliday deal have shown the Holliday contract to have actually been much team friendlier and fruitful
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 27, 2011 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
Hard to see Holliday being much worse than league-average by the end of his deal (age 36-37 I think)
I’m guessing paying him $17m per year in his last two seasons isn’t going to cripple the ball club so long as he can still play LF. A league average player is probably going to be making $11-12m or so in free agency by 2016.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 27, 2011 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
that's the thing
it doesn’t get bad for a long time, and even then it may not be that bad
11!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 27, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
FWIW I think this is pretty much dead right, sadly
he Cardinals are about to make a terrible mistake – Unless I’m wrong (and it has been known to happen) the Cardinals will sign Albert Pujols to a completely unreasonable deal to ensure that he retires a Cardinal and joins the ranks of greats Stan Musial, Bob Gibson, et al. Good for them for preserving their franchise history, good for us that it will financially cripple their team with the help of the Holliday deal. By year three of that deal I think the rest of baseball will be looking on in amazement at the Titantic Pujols contract as it crashes into the Old Age iceberg.
We’ll probably be over-paying Molina and Waino by year 3 of the Pujols deal as well. Better damn well hope that Shelby Miller/Carlos Martinez/some other prospects turn into the real deal.
The comment about Kyle Lohse is kinda a head-scratcher though. Healthy, he’s not worth much less than $12m (I’m guessing if he wanted just a 1-yr deal on the open market he’d maybe get $8-9m or so) so it’s hardly crippling. To put this in context, by the end of 2021 (when his deferred payments will finish) the Reds will have paid Bronson Arroyo a combined total of $63.3m. Laugh it up, assholes.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 27, 2011 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
you forgot 'shitheads'
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 27, 2011 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
assholes = arseholes
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 27, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
this seems anatomically confused, though.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 27, 2011 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
Just a funny, FM is British isn't he? Figured he merican-ized it for us colonists
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 27, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
frickin pond
well the insults are on opposite ends
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 27, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
So this
FWIW I think this is pretty much dead right, sadly I agree with the shitheads
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 27, 2011 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
Or better yet this
Shitheads!…..FWIW I think this is pretty much dead right, sadly
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 27, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
to be more specific actually "English"
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 27, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
I'm kinda Scottish actually
English parents, but was born and lived first 12 years of my life in Scotland.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 27, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
(Scots-English via Missourri)....
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 27, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
ugh. Missouri.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 27, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
I was going by your profile, so you live in Missouri now or England?
Show-me :) just for fun
11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 27, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
I do that a lot.
Y’all.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 27, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
A REAL head-scratcher (TM).
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Future Mrs. David Freese ♥
St. Louis Cardinals 2011 World Series Champions
I don't think overpaying Pujols by 5 million a year at the tail end of his contract will cripple our team
It will just lower our functional payroll.
Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 27, 2011 5:16 PM EST up reply actions

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