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Contemplating a future in which Albert Pujols doesn't accept salary arbitration

There is a chance that Albert Pujols will decline the arbitration offer the Cardinals just made, and I believe that the Cardinals—and even those of us playing the home version—should keep that possibility in mind as we plot the team's offseason. I am just that kind of worst-case-scenario guy. 

So, assuming that Albert Pujols taking a one-year contract determined by an outside arbitrator doesn't do the trick, the Cardinals find themselves forced to continue their salary negotiations with a guy who may or may not have been NSFWing when he was supposed to be SFWing (right next to "Man Posts Evidence of Bride's Lost Virginity to Facebook" on Deadspin's headlines list, which, maybe the guy's a football fan I guess.)

Since Albert Pujols is sticking with his agent we can take "Pujols's side experiences total negotiations meltdown, delaying our satisfaction and/or heartbreak another month or two" off the possible-first-base-outcomes list. 

That leaves us with a few possible outcomes, starting with the one I'm least fond of: Albert Pujols leaves and Busch Stadium is torn down brick by brick and sold on the black memorabilia market. The Cardinals play on the Ballpark Village softball field until the Cardinals successfully construct a retro-retro ballpark that's designed to evoke the feeling of Busch Stadium III in these more cynical times. A home run hit in the puddle that forms in the hole in the ground where Busch III used to be when it rains too much is called a DeWitt Dinger. 

Star-divide

The Cardinals are more or less stuck in that situation, although I like a related option: Albert Pujols leaves and Busch Stadium is torn down brick by brick and sold on the black memorabilia market, whereupon the Cardinals play in the Edward Jones Dome for a year or two. I don't think it's possible, but I'd be hoping for a Los Angeles Coliseum kind of set-up in this case, where there's a 251-foot wall somewhere and Skip Schumaker hits 51 home runs. 

Assuming Busch Stadium stays in place after the National Guard is called in, we have the third worst option, Albert Pujols leaves. The Cardinals get two draft picks, Lance Berkman moves to first base, and Allen Craig does it for Torty on a semi-permanent basis, although I'm not sure the Cardinals can get by too long without spending their perceived DeWallet dividend. 

There's a little extra value to be squeezed out in that positional move—Berkman was a half a win or a win worse than average as a left fielder, whereas Allen Craig probably isn't. But Berkman and Craig are also coming off unsustainably outstanding offensive seasons, which could lead to a brick-by-brick situation round midseason. 

The Cardinals are stuck in a strange position if they fail to sign Pujols here—Berkman and Craig is a good solution, almost ideal, but it's unlikely to be as good as it looked last year and it lacks the flash of, say, replacing your highly paid face of the franchise with some other highly paid face of the franchise.

Which could lead to Albert Pujols signs a terrifyingly large contract that hinders the Cardinals in the next four to ten years. I'm worried about this, but not as worried about this as watching Albert Pujols do the same thing somewhere else in the next four to ten years.

I admit it: I am not Murray Chass's sabermetric straw man. I like it when superstars stay with their original team for their entire productive career, and I'm willing to watch somebody else pay a premium for it. Meanwhile Albert Pujols is coming off a worrying season, and worth more to the Cardinals as the beloved successor to Stan Musial than he could be to other teams, as the disappointing first baseman who limps all the time. 

I'm willing to see this lead to the Cardinals overpaying for someone who's played his best years already. If there's some way this can be worked out in such a way that the Cardinals don't overpay so much, all the better. 

None of these situations is ideal, and I guess that's why all of these situations will lead to me, eventually, watching baseball in April.  

Comment 760 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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Your comment about Busch being taken down brick by brick is great.

Can you imagine the windfall if the Cardinals front office is keeping Busch II’s wreckage in a warehouse somewhere, sifting, sorting, and printing out letters of authenticity while letting it appreciate in value for the day when it can all be spilled on the market?

From the blackhole of the Iowa TV market.

by icardinal on Nov 25, 2011 11:09 AM EST reply actions  

Green

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 25, 2011 6:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Where is everybody?

Black Friday shopping?

I can’t imagine Pujols accepting arb when he has at least two 9 yr offers on the table. I dunno, but it’s looking more and more to me that he ends up signing with the Cards at something like 8/200 or 9/220. I think, in the end, the team will up their previous offer, just enough, to allow Albert to say going to FA was the right move while not going completely overboard with the terms. (’course paying a 40 y/o Albert $20M+ certainly may turn out to be “overboard”).

by ArkansasTravs on Nov 25, 2011 11:23 AM EST reply actions  

surely he declines arb

i say this with some reservations, but it appears the jmo crew has approached the apu situation in a smart way
between doubts on true age (real or imagined) and facing a 200M 9 yr commitment from stl
who else will go that deep? jmo can move to a more enticing dollar value with fewer years and be better off
they can extend another yr at the same rate and increase the dollar value
the fact is that albert’s production and consistency from month to month over the last 3 yrs has steadily declined

you can never protect yourself from idiots, but that’s what it will take for someone to offer any more yrs than stl
and offering more dollars for fewer yrs, like 6-25 (150) falls short in total

if albert signs elsewhere, i’m only worried about the first 3 yrs or so. after that odds are we won’t be crying in our beer, but whoever pays him 25+ for more than 6 yrs will be

the deal is albert kind of signed his most productive years away and got what he what. i don’t see anyone else trying to “make up” for that outside stl

TLR is gone, long live the king

by sportsman on Nov 25, 2011 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Let's play the arb game

What is albert’s arb number? What would he submit? What would cards submit? And where would the judge land?

Just win

by The Duke on Nov 25, 2011 11:24 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

i doubt it

look at the numbers
where is apu in fWAR or any other offensive measure for 2011?
his uzr/150?

lots of talk about him being best player
but truth is that was true, but is not true now
lots of players outperformed apu last year

TLR is gone, long live the king

by sportsman on Nov 25, 2011 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Another look

The cards eventualyy have to paid.
player with this kind of production dont come cheap.
Is a pride matter for Pujols ,isn all about money, Why he worth less money than Sabathia, Crawford, Lee , Werth or Kemp.
Cards cant count with Berkman & Freese to carry the team. Berk was done two years ago so isnt much in the tank. Freese just see better pitching at the Ws because pujols was ever trasfered.

by TAME on Nov 25, 2011 11:31 AM EST reply actions  

evident the wash.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Nov 25, 2011 11:35 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

exactly right

"You've got to have an attitude if your going to go far in this game." -- Bob Gibson

by cyclone on Nov 25, 2011 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

true.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Nov 25, 2011 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

This surprises you?

Now lets see if this posts, or if I have to log off to get my warning.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Nov 25, 2011 12:43 PM EST up reply actions  

heh

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Nov 25, 2011 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

so...

Evidente el ladavo?

"Now that they've come out with that great stat, 'innings pitched per inning'-- is there anything they don't have a stat for these days?" -Al Hraboski, 3 Jun 11

by SleepyCA on Nov 25, 2011 3:32 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Paying Pujols isn't just a calculation for next season,

they have to consider what the team (and its payroll) could look like 7-9 years down the road too. That’s a tough calculation for any non-Yankees team to make.

After this season, I think it’s clear that Berk wasn’t “done two years ago”. I also think he’s a relatively high risk for injury. The Cards aren’t looking at him as a long term anyway.

#HappySeason

by The Continental on Nov 25, 2011 12:43 PM EST up reply actions  

TAAAAAAAAAAAAAME

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 25, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

yea, but

starting today, which is worse
kemp at 8 160
apu 10 300

neither is good, but kemp’s is the better bet

TLR is gone, long live the king

by sportsman on Nov 25, 2011 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

hope so

but i suspect he expects to beat howard in aav, no?

TLR is gone, long live the king

by sportsman on Nov 25, 2011 7:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I should also probably say

I don’t really consider a 23-27 AAV over 6-8 years to be that objectionable, but then again I realize that my idea of an acceptable contract is on the high side compared to most VEBers.

by bailorg on Nov 25, 2011 11:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Mitchell & Ness is worrying me.

I never got a confirmation email, and as wonky as their website was last night, I’m afraid my order didn’t go through. And now the Musial jersey is out of stock in the size I need.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Nov 25, 2011 12:19 PM EST reply actions  

screw you

everything good is out of stock now.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 25, 2011 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm seriously worried that my order didn't go through.

I’ve been calling all morning, and their message says they opened two hours ago, but they aren’t answering. I’m gonna be pissed if I get hosed.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Nov 25, 2011 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

ah, you'll get them

either way.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 25, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

mrs. scoot just had the same problem

said she went through and ordered and then got a notification that : “order has already been placed or cart doesn’t exist”

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 25, 2011 5:08 PM EST up reply actions  

If I could get a confirmation email, I'd feel a lot better.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Nov 25, 2011 5:21 PM EST up reply actions  

if i could get laid, i'd feel a lot better.

we can’t all get what we want.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Sometimes, however

you get what you need.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 25, 2011 7:11 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Sweet

11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 25, 2011 7:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I got a confirmation email within five minutes of placing my order this morning.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 25, 2011 5:43 PM EST up reply actions  

That's what I was afraid of.

Damnit.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Nov 25, 2011 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Did you print or at least screenshot your order?

Mrs. scoot didn’t. She just went back and checked and they are out of my size now. I’d press the issue if you don’t get a confirmation email. I probably will.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 25, 2011 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

No.

I’m screwed. I plan on it, but it’s kind of tough seeing as they claim they’re open but won’t answer their damn phones.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Nov 25, 2011 6:02 PM EST up reply actions  

send them a nasty email

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 25, 2011 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I also got a confirmation email shortly after, but my conf says "in process"

I ordered at about 0815 got response at 0824

11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 25, 2011 7:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Same for me, confirmation email right away

That is not a good sign for RR. Their servers were wonky as hell last night. When I finally got the shopping cart to load it showed a quantity of 6 and after updating it to 1 I had to go through the check out process twice before it completed. Since it not true without a blockquote.
 

Billed To:
That’s a Winner
Order Number: 2XXXXXX
Order Time: 11/25/2011 2:24:00 AM
Current Status: In Process
Payment Method: Credit Card
Promotional Code(s):
Special Instructions:
Qty SKU Product Name Unit Price
1 7229A-425-44SMUSI-I St. Louis Cardinals 1944 Home Jersey – Stan Musial – Size 44 (L) $100.00

It’s going to look awesome with the 1942 Home Cooperstown Fitted Cap I picked up a few years ago. I wish the best of luck to RR, just so I don’t have to keep looking over my shoulder in fear of a guy wearing high waders and wielding a large knife hunting me down.

"There are three things the average man thinks he can do better than anybody else: build a fire, run a hotel and manage a baseball team."- Rocky Bridges

by That's a Winner on Nov 25, 2011 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't worry

RR’s a 2XL, he’d break your shirt.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 25, 2011 7:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Was joke

sorry, don’t get the whole “jok” thing.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 25, 2011 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

No, I was ordering that exact same shirt.

Good news is that they’re in stock today.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Nov 26, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Good summary Dan.

There are complications from having the best player in baseball as part of your team for the last ten years. I hope the stadium does not get torn down. I hope they find some way to pay Albert AND field a competitive team. I hope Lozano is not the incredible sleazebag portrayed in that article.

Whatever it takes – I hope the Cardinals win many more World Series. This was fun.

TortyCraig
My guess as to the meaning of Yadi's neck tattoos is that they are the symbols from an ancient civilization for "Caught Stealing."

by spfldbird on Nov 25, 2011 12:35 PM EST reply actions  

If the stadium does get torn down brick by brick

I’d like to have the ’44 WS plaque. So if that happens, keep an eye out.

Thanks.

#HappySeason

by The Continental on Nov 25, 2011 12:39 PM EST reply actions  

the demolition shuts down due to high demand in the middle of the night.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2011 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

that hole in the ground has a name, dammit!

it’s Lake DeWitt

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2011 12:39 PM EST reply actions  

So doe the new 2.9 million cap on international FA effect Cespedes?

or Jorge Soler?

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 12:59 PM EST reply actions  

I was wondering this as well.

Is it just the cap on signing bonuses? Meaning salary is still unchecked?

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Nov 25, 2011 1:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

it applies to Soler, afaik.

I think because of age and the number of years that he has already played professionally, it does not apply to Cespedes.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 25, 2011 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

affect

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 25, 2011 7:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Herro

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 25, 2011 1:01 PM EST reply actions  

Hora Mi Amigo

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Who are you calling a Hora?

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 25, 2011 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

And latin

and the spanish pronunciation is how Pray(Ora) is pronounced in Latin.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 4:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll just leave this here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQKASww9Ni4

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 25, 2011 1:09 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Parody or not I am pretty sure this breaks about 3 VEB bylaws

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Lets see, religion, politics... what else?

Masturbation damn sure ain’t breakin’ any VEB laws.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 25, 2011 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

vep posting while the sun is out

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

This is the first time i've seen sun in two weeks

Back in LA for thanksgiving.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 25, 2011 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

where did you end up going to college?

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Oregon

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 25, 2011 1:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Just like his dear pappa?

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 1:26 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

pressing wild flowers?

"You've got to have an attitude if your going to go far in this game." -- Bob Gibson

by cyclone on Nov 25, 2011 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

You'd like that wouldn't you?

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 25, 2011 1:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Oregon is a state full of angry rednecks with chainsaws, lifted 1970s Fords

and lots of Guns who aren’t allowed to use any of them because the Cities are full of the tree hugging, neo-pagan, bike riders who make 100k a year collecting ginseng and mushrooms and selling them at Saturday Market. It is like the two ends of the political spectrum with only the thinnest strip of suburbs seperating them.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Although unlike the intrusive kinds of political beliefs you see in places

like Texas, or locally here in Boulder, it seems to largely be live and let live there(you can still smoke in Portland Bars)

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 1:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Smoking in bars?

GOOD GOD! what is this, the early 2000s?

Bursting into song.

by Aranathor on Nov 25, 2011 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Portland, Kansas and Montana are the only three places

I can remember in recent years where that was cool. Actually I am not sure about STL it seems I remember people smoking in an airport bar there in in early 2008

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Go ahead and scratch MT off the list.

Utah lasted longer than MT, if you can believe that.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Nov 25, 2011 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

UT has a pretty deep distrust of government

so while laws on the books rarely get repealed they are pretty slow add new ones

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought it was because it is still 1954 in most of Utah.

Would not be surprised to find those “4 of 5 doctors smoke Chesterfields for the deep lung-cleaning freshness” ads still running in newspapers there.

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 25, 2011 2:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Utah is a seriously interesting place

I had to spend several monthes a year there in my early 20’s. Met a lot of very cool people, saw some amazing sites, but I can’t say I will be moving there anytime soon.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

a really good example of the duality of politics

support to ban tobacco is at an all time high, while support to legalize marijuana is also peaking.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

....have you made a comment today that isn't political or leaning political?

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2011 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I complained about vep posting a political video

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Oooh yeah I had nearly forgot that I had

a bunch of religious stuff to bring up

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, no you can't. Not in Portland.

It was banned in 2008. Smoking is pretty much taboo in any public place here now.

by mattisnotfrench on Nov 25, 2011 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

"like Texas"

yeah, cool, i make generalizations about groups of people i know nothing about, also

by prophetjohn on Nov 25, 2011 5:43 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I think it's fine to make generalizations when talking about a state as a whole

That’s kind of what generalizations are for. (Not saying he’s right).

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 25, 2011 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

i think it expresses you're not a very intelligent person

when you generalize any large group of people since large groups of people are inherently ungeneralizable.

by prophetjohn on Nov 25, 2011 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

wait what?

I disagree. Saying, “as a state, Texas leans right” is a generalization right? That’s just saying more people in Texas lean right than not. Its only when applied to individuals that generalizations are stupid.

Actually, never-mind, I really don’t care.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 25, 2011 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

no, he said "intrusive beliefs"

I just changed the generalization.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 25, 2011 6:01 PM EST up reply actions  

so

citizens of texas, in general, hold intrusive political beliefs and that it’s wise to mkae generalizations of that nature is your point?

by prophetjohn on Nov 25, 2011 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm saying that a generalization isn't a bad thing, or "wrong"

when applied to a large group of people. I

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 25, 2011 6:09 PM EST up reply actions  

well, that's approximately the stupidest thing i've ever heard

i really don’t know how to formulate a respectful argument against that

by prophetjohn on Nov 25, 2011 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

ok

what is factually incorrect about saying “texas is a right-leaning state”, or anything other generalization you can think of? It’s just a fact, in statistical terms it’s just the regression line. Obviously it does not apply to a lot of people in the subset, but it applies to more people than not (assuming the generalization is correct).

Now there’s really no reason to ever use a generalization if you have the actual numbers, but it’s just a way to differentiate between groups or states or whatever.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 25, 2011 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

the difference here

is that if we impose an arbitrary divider to define left and right leaning, calling a state left- or right-leaning is something that can be factually verified

whether or not texans hold inherently intrusive political beliefs is not considering that it is entirely subjective

by prophetjohn on Nov 25, 2011 6:20 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, I don't agree with what tomcat said

I don’t have an opinion on it either way. i just don’t think he was misusing a generalization. he just cited texas a state that he believed had a higher percentage of people with intrusive political beliefs.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 25, 2011 6:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Not what I was saying

I posted the supreme court case that formed my opinion of the texas justice system. I said nothing about political affiliation or what state leans what way.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 6:30 PM EST up reply actions  

just forget about it

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 25, 2011 6:32 PM EST up reply actions  

lots of left leaning people in texas as well

all the people I know from there are actually left leaning (5+ people)

11!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 25, 2011 6:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Science

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 6:02 PM EST up reply actions  

oh, this is ripe with irony

mocking chitown for posting a personal anecdote after making a severely weak argument that relies completely on anecdote should start ringing the irony bells in your head.

by prophetjohn on Nov 25, 2011 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Not mocking him at all

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

My time in Austin certainly supports

the belief that Texas is not a homogenous culture, not really sure homogenous culture is possible in a country like the US which I am incredibly happy about(the food and music tends to be better)

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 6:32 PM EST up reply actions  

well the people I know say that

if you are from texas you’re either a steer or a queer and I don’t see any horns on you, boy.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 25, 2011 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

so, one could say that the most ignorant part of it is

assuming that all males of the bovine species have horns?

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 25, 2011 6:32 PM EST up reply actions  

like it matters

they’re steers. . . just gonna be food anyway

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 25, 2011 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Full Metal Jacket

Awesome movie

will do ANYTHING for a rec

by stlcardsfan4 on Nov 25, 2011 10:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah of course

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 25, 2011 6:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I could counter with laws in Texas that I would argue are

intrusive.Unless you would like to claim that Texas has had some very intrusive laws? I am not saying anything about any particular Texan, and could have just as easily used any state that was covered by Lawrence v. Texas in 2003. I am not making a generalization about a group of people, I am citing case law. Texas only gets picked as an example because their name is on the ruling.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

oh, well you'll have to pardon me

when i think that statements like “the intrusive kinds of political beliefs you see in places
like Texas” is referring to people. i didn’t know that “political beliefs” meant laws. you see, many people would see the word beliefs and ask themselves what kind of entity is capable of having a belief and they would then think, oh, only people and conclude that the comment was about people. other people would think this conclusion is further reinforced by the fact that your comment was adding to a comment that was discussing the people of oregon as a whole

by prophetjohn on Nov 25, 2011 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Look I know the internet is mainly a place to be professionally

offended but I was refering to the use of law to advance a personal belief. I also cited a Supreme Court ruling that covered that very issue with the word Texas in the ruling. If you want to say that the state of texas has not enacted and or prosecuted based on laws that I would consider intrusive then so be it. I didn’t attack you but if you choose to believe that my post was a slight to you or you neighbors then I am sorry it wasn’t intended that way.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 6:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I also cited a Supreme Court ruling
Science

would you like me to find my own anecdotes so that we can sit here and argue conjecture all day? texans don’t pay income tax. there’s a non-intrusive political belief — and when i say “political belief” i definitely mean “law” — to counter yours, but it just occurred to me that the intrusiveness of these political beliefs laws may depend entirely on your political views and the kinds of preconceptions that you get from watching some TV, but not actually knowing anything about the kind of people you’re generalizing

and yeah, i do have a bit of a problem with you negatively generalizing all the people i interact with every day, but i also slightly resent you lowering the level of discourse here and making me go on this kind of extended tirade so that you could implicitly express your political beliefs, which we’re totally so interested in.

by prophetjohn on Nov 25, 2011 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Okay

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 6:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Again if you were upset by what I said

and with me siting the case law that formed my opinion contiue to be upset than I apologise it was never intended to slight any living Texan as I doubt any were alive in the ealry 1900’s when they were inacted. If you feel the need to flag and complain about my statements then I understand that too, and will take my warning like a big boy.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 6:28 PM EST up reply actions  

citing

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 25, 2011 7:36 PM EST up reply actions  

"then I apologize"

enacted

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 25, 2011 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Just remembered what I forgot to

thank you for on Thanksgiving… Fired up and writing on a 3.5" screen is never good for my grammatical skillset but I assure you that if I had an edit function those would not be the first things I changed out of what I wrote yesterday.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 26, 2011 10:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Also: Oregon is far more complex than that.,

There are a lot of rednecks in Oregon, but it isn’t nearly as drastic as you say it is. A lot of the smaller cities in the state are relatively progressive (Ashland, Hood River, Astoria and Bend come to mind). The only cities that really fit that bill are Portland and Eugene, and Eugene is a more extreme example than Portland only because its a college town.

by mattisnotfrench on Nov 25, 2011 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

oh, look

further proof that what he says is mainly pure bullshit

i’m not sure why we aim to not have political discussions on here can someone remind me

by prophetjohn on Nov 25, 2011 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe because

for most of us, we’d rather not get into long-winded discussions that have nothing to do with the stated intent of this blog, which, from what I’ve seen lately, has mostly to do with tortoises, squirrels and boobs.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 25, 2011 7:40 PM EST up reply actions  

And squirrels WITH boobs.

I call them squoobs.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 26, 2011 10:48 AM EST up reply actions  

fair and as a person raised on a farm, has owned a lifted truck, chainsaw, and guns

I am not passing judgement on either group.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

But are you a smoker?

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 25, 2011 7:41 PM EST up reply actions  

quit in 2006 after a pack/pack and a half a day habit and

still sympathize with those who didn’t

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 26, 2011 10:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Good choice I have friends in Veneta

Eugene is among the prettiest settings in the etats unis, and you will find that you are an extreme right winger there

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah it is very beautiful

Although I’m kind of bummed about the forest. I first expected it to be about 15 blocks off campus, past the residential homes. But all that’s there is a golf course and this little shrub of a forest, and then there’s the freeway. I found you have to get way out of town to get to anywhere really vast.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 25, 2011 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah but the drive between there and Newport gets into deliverance

territory really quick. Man do you learn quick that much like California Oregon and Washington have cities that are little blue islands in a sea of red politically.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not that bad, though. Oregon is mostly pretty cool.

And VEP, you can always take the bus to McKenzie Bridge if you need forest. Ain’t nothing but that up there. Been to Sahalie and Koosah Falls yet? Climbed Spencer Butte yet? How about the dunes?

by mattisnotfrench on Nov 25, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

No I haven't been anywhere outside of campus, downtown and Springfield

I have to make sure to check out all that though, skiing too when the snow starts to fall.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 25, 2011 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

It's already started in the mountains.

Timberline has 54" right now. According to the Oregonian, Willamette Pass only has 18" right now but I’m sure it will have a whole lot more soon.

by mattisnotfrench on Nov 25, 2011 5:42 PM EST up reply actions  

GOD I REALLY WANT TO GO SKIING RIGHT NOW.

Gotta wait until Feb 8th. Sigh.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2011 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Multnomah, Crater Lake, and Cape Disapointment are all

places he has to hit before heading back to Cali

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

It was named by a Brit who couldn't find a

Navigatable channel up the Columbia I think it is something like 5 miles wide at the mouth.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

but the Goonies was filmed at Astoria

and the cape itself is a pretty cool place, hell the whole Oregon coast is amazing

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Proposal Rock, on the beach next to Neskowin

is a very cool place, a little rock island. It’s out of the water at low tide, and at high tide, the water comes up about 6 feet on the rock. Has a trail on it (now, I haven’t been there since ’82, so this is all from memory).

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 25, 2011 7:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Cape Disappointment is not up there with the other two.

It’s actually pretty much like its name. He does have to hit Proxy Falls though:

by mattisnotfrench on Nov 25, 2011 5:44 PM EST up reply actions  

this is a real place?

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 25, 2011 6:08 PM EST up reply actions  

looks photoshopped

but if not, holy shit, i’m going there next week.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 25, 2011 6:09 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah it looks pretty touched up to me too

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 25, 2011 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

In what way does it look photshopped

maybe cleaned up a little bit but I don’t see anything egregiously unrealistic about it.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 26, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

I think overly saturated is a better word

I’m sure it was touched up on photoshop.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 26, 2011 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Quite probably yeah.

Don’t think it looks artificial or cropped in or anything though.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 27, 2011 10:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Of course not

it’s a stand-in for another place that’s just as pretty.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 25, 2011 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, it is.

They cooked the saturation in the photo but it definitely is real, since I’ve been there a couple of times. It’s only about an hour east of Eugene. Google “Proxy Falls” – you’ll find lots of photos. I’ve got a framed poster on my wall behind me.

by mattisnotfrench on Nov 26, 2011 3:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Fair and true about it not being on the same level,

but I would argue that the drive from Cape Disapointment to say Newport is on par.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, it's strange I suppose

Eugene doesn’t seem all that political though. Only a couple hundred showed up for the Occupy rallies and 95% of them were hippies who just wanted an excuse to smoke pot and make drum circles.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 25, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I kind of think Eugene itself is an excuse for that last part

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Heh yeah

Every 50 feet of walking on campus I get a nice whiff of something.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 25, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Have they legalized full medical ala Colorado/Cali yet

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I haven't been able to get a straight answers about that

My understanding is that it’s legal in the state, but the laws and much stricter and there are no dispensaries in Eugene.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 25, 2011 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I lived there 05-07 so I haven't followed their laws

but it seems pretty silly that the state with legalized euthanasia would be locking anyone up for weed

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

It's pretty easy to get a card here.

I don’t have one and I don’t know anybody that does, but its pretty easy. As far as legal to smoke for anyone else, you probably won’t get busted unless you are really obvious about it.

by mattisnotfrench on Nov 25, 2011 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

If you're into Shakespeare

Ashland hosts the Oregon Shakespeare Festival from Feb thru Oct. If you drove home on I-5, you would have driven right past it. Also, if you drove home on I-5, then I assume you saw Mt. Shasta, which is one of the most beautiful mountains I’ve ever seen, and the drive in that part of California is one of the best.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 25, 2011 7:53 PM EST up reply actions  

This

In the future, I for one, welcome our new Aaron Miles overlord.

by Michael_68_1999 on Jan 31, 2011 12:30 PM PST

by RosevilleRedbird on Nov 25, 2011 10:13 PM EST up reply actions  

The area around Mount Shasta is a STRANGE place.

My wife and I spent a night in Mount Shasta on the way back from Yosemite this year. I like how none of the restaurants in town have vegetarian food, and yet 1 in every 3 people was a seedy, seedy hippie.

We were quite perplexed.

by mattisnotfrench on Nov 26, 2011 3:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Is this actually for real,

or was it a skit?

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Nov 25, 2011 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

It was a skit, part of Louis' show

Full episode here:

http://www.tv-links.eu/tv-shows/Louie_22935/season_2/episode_8/

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 25, 2011 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

moves kinda slow, yes?

kinda slow…

something is happening here but you don't know what it is

by Cha-Cha on Nov 25, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Meh

Berk to 1st, Craig to right. As the ’70s disco song said, pick up the pieces, uh-HUH, pick up the pieces, uh-HUH.
Though I hope Prince Al stays in the Lou just for the sheer grandeur of it all.

something is happening here but you don't know what it is

by Cha-Cha on Nov 25, 2011 2:29 PM EST reply actions  

if Albert stays, of course that is good

but if he leaves it’s not the end of the world… Berk less likely to get hurt at first, plus his defense is replaced (although this may be more of a wash since Albert’s defense at first would be better than Berk). Craig gets more playing time… and of course we still have Holliday who Craig seemed to be at least a little similar to. also may be able to sign Furcal without Albert. that said, don’t leave, Albert! please don’t go!

11!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 25, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

If Albert goes I guess we have another $25m or so to spend

god knows how we’d blow that particular load on free agents this year (maybe Furcal, Kelly Johnson, a backup CF and a LOOGY?) but you’d hope it’d at least make us a 90-ish win team again. If the FA market was a bit better, I’d almost argue there’s a chance we’d be better off NEXT year (let alone in 8 years time) by letting Albert walk.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2011 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

it will be very odd if albert leaves

not sure if we need a backup cf, but furcal and johnson would be very interesting. more pitching is always nice

11!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 25, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

i suspect so

but i’d rather not test that premise
unless he wants more than 25/yr for more than 5 yrs
in which case i’d let him walk

TLR is gone, long live the king

by sportsman on Nov 25, 2011 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Pretty sure he does

as he turned down a 9yr ~$200m deal last year, seemingly.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 26, 2011 10:51 AM EST up reply actions  

So, I knew the rangers signed joe Nathan

Bu I had no clue it was 2 years and $14.5M. That seems like a drastic overpay for a reliever coming off a down year and less than 2 years removed from TJ.

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Nov 25, 2011 2:38 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

The reliever market has been insane

if Madson is really asking for 4 years that is crazy.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

If one month of Dotel was worth Lambo and Macdonald to the Doyers

KMac ought to be worth something decent

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not as down on Kmac as everyone else

I’d love to see him back as a reliever and spot starter do to injuries. I thought we burned his arm out last year.

Piss off Tony, get shipped to Canada.

by beer me on Nov 25, 2011 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

his numbers were pretty mediocre before we burned out his arm

and he’s due to get a pretty significant raise to fill a role that can be filled for free by a number of other young guys on the team and on the farm. keeping him around would just be bad business

by prophetjohn on Nov 25, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Should totally move him for a low level prospect with upside

he isn’t useless but I think a his innings could definitely be filled better by others

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not convinced we can move him for much of anything, tbh.

One option might be to trade for a similar arb-eligible low-upside lefty reliever. Not aware of one off the top of my head, tho.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

the main priority is just getting him off the books

if mo’ could swing anything close to a cleto-type prospect, i’d be happy. it’s more about not paying kmac $3-4MM than it is about using him to stock the system.

by prophetjohn on Nov 25, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

He could just be non-tendered

and I’m not sure he’ll get $4m even after making 20-odd starts last year. It’s probably not the worst thing in the world if he gets $2m to be a longman /occasional 7th inning guy against lefties for a year

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2011 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh yeah, for sure

another LHRP would be good. Once upon a time I thought we could get a Clint Barmes type for that, but seemingly not.

Still, it could pay for Nick Punto I guess.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2011 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Is it just me or is there a serious shortage of quality MIF

in MLB right now? 37 YO Jamey Carrol is being relied on? 34 YO Mark Ellis is getting 2 years and a 1 mil buyout on a 3rd? Uribe got 3/19 last year for a career sub 300 OBP hitter?

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

see hudson, orlando

if you are bargain hunting

TLR is gone, long live the king

by sportsman on Nov 25, 2011 6:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe but pretty risky

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 6:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Middle infielders still on the market

Reyes, Furcal, Rollins, Kelly Johnson, Ramon Santiago, Alex Gonzalez, Jack Wilson, Nick Punto, Adam Kennedy, Jerry Hairston, Ronny Cedeno, Carlos Guillen, Renteria, DeRosa, Orlando Cabrera, Betancourt, Counsell, Vizquel, Izturis, Alex Cora and a VEB favorite, Aaron Miles.
If we resign Pujols, I think we get two bargain basement guys – Punto and Santiago ? If not, Maybe we go for Furcal and K Johnson.
Assuming we trade or nontender Schu and Theriot.

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 25, 2011 6:09 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah O-Dawg may just be waiting

to play for something meaningful again, he is certain worth taking a look at considering the cost of the other options.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Two O dogs

Orlando Hudson – under contract with the Padres for 2012
Orlando Cabrera – free agent – 37 in 2012. fwar over last 3 years: -0.5, 0.7, -0.5. No O dogs for me, thanks.

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 25, 2011 6:23 PM EST up reply actions  

the market is mostly made up of entirely unrealistic or replacement-value options.

furcal and punto are probably realistic, with furcal staking down the expensive end of the realistic spectrum. reyes is unrealistic unless pujols signs elsewhere. rollins will likely be far more expensive than he’s worth. hudson, santiago, and gonzalez are pretty modest improvements over what we have (at best) and would only make sense if very cheap. kelly johnson might be interesting if he’s not too expensive.

i don’t see any improvement over greene and descalson in kennedy, derosa, hairston, cabrera, betancourt, counsell, vizquel, izturis, cora, miles, cedeno, renteria, guillen, and wilson.

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 25, 2011 8:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Got to add two middle infielders

whether they start ahead of Greene/Descalso or not. Unless Craig is in the mix (doubt it). Or Wong/Jackson/Kozma

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 25, 2011 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

according to Mo

Skip and Craig are both OUT of the mix at 2B. Mo wants “D”

#12in12

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Nov 25, 2011 8:56 PM EST up reply actions  

i remember mo saying the craig experiments

in CF and at 2B were done. what did he say, specifically, about skip?

by prophetjohn on Nov 25, 2011 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

utility player...

moreso in the outfield rather than the IF

#12in12

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Nov 25, 2011 9:12 PM EST up reply actions  

iirc, he said something to the effect that if we tendered an offer to

skip, it would be as an outfield replacement, not a second baseman.

not that it makes any sense either way.

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 25, 2011 9:12 PM EST up reply actions  

and it's not like we need another OF

especially a light-hitting lefty with mediocre defense. so hopefully that means skip will have a nice job that involves trying to beat the st louis cardinals next season

by prophetjohn on Nov 25, 2011 9:14 PM EST up reply actions  

see handwringing here.

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 25, 2011 9:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's the quote from the Post-Dispatch:
Mozeliak projects Daniel Descalso as next season’s starting second baseman with incumbent Skip Schumaker ticketed for a ‘super utility" role should the club avoid arbitration. The plan may leave Theriot, last season’s opening day shortstop, a nontender candidate in search of a more robust role elsewhere.

Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/cardinals-could-look-much-the-same-in/article_966f3a3f-fc9d-54d4-977d-841578ffcde4.html#ixzz1em2dlK4r

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 25, 2011 9:18 PM EST up reply actions  

sounds to me like they're telling skip

if you want to stay, don’t expect to start. or have a regular position. or get regular playing time. and we’ll pay you accordingly.

> tebow

by cschepers on Nov 25, 2011 9:20 PM EST up reply actions  

thats what i took from it.

Sounds like a possible non-tender and then re-sign

#12in12

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Nov 25, 2011 9:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Hopefully,

he is non-tendered and allowed to pursue an opportunity to play full-time somewhere else in the National League Central (if we’re lucky).

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 25, 2011 9:22 PM EST up reply actions  

i hope so too...

I’m afraid they have that Matheny-like mancrush on him though.

#12in12

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Nov 25, 2011 9:26 PM EST up reply actions  

At best, Skip could compete with Chambers

for a fifth outfielder / pinch hitter spot. But he would have to take a pay cut. I’m sure he will explore options elsewhere. I liked the guy – he autographed a hat for me while we were on family vacation in Miami. He just doesn’t fit any more.

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 25, 2011 9:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that's an "at worst" scenario.

Skip Schumaker is physically incapable of playing even mediocre center field defense. He is also incapable of hitting well enough to ever merit playing a corner outfield spot.

I also want to be clear that Skip is a true professional. He was a nice guy while playing for Memphis and continues this today. He always seems to have time for fans.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 25, 2011 9:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I respect your opinion

but I feel you may be a little harsh. It could be there is a spot for a clubhouse leader/fan favorite as a fifth outfielder. Skip has been a positive WAR contributor every season since 2006. I’d still like him back at the right price. $1.0 – 1.5M ?

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 25, 2011 9:41 PM EST up reply actions  

That's not true.

Schumaker was worth negative WAR just last season. This is because his defense is so terrible, he doesn’t really take walks anymore, and he hits for virtually no power. Whatever marginal value he may have is tied to his BABIP.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 25, 2011 10:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I see his WAR as

0.6 at Baseball Reference.com

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 25, 2011 10:43 PM EST up reply actions  

why is rWAR

a better measure of his season than fWAR?

by prophetjohn on Nov 25, 2011 10:45 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not.

UZR has been proven to be more accurate than TZ and wOBA is better than whatever B-R uses.

Pretty much everything fangraphs uses is better.

will do ANYTHING for a rec

by stlcardsfan4 on Nov 25, 2011 10:56 PM EST up reply actions  

i don't know

what b-r uses for offense, but it sucks!

anyway, i was mainly asking the person making the claim to support it, but thanks

by prophetjohn on Nov 25, 2011 10:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Being still somewhat new to advanced sabermetrics

I would most welcome a tutorial on Baseball Ref WAR (bWAR)? vs fangraphs WAR (fWAR?)

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 25, 2011 11:14 PM EST up reply actions  

you're in luck sir

there is a concise, high-level overview of the differences about halfway down. if you want to dive into the verbose, low-level details, look further down

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/misc/war/

by prophetjohn on Nov 25, 2011 11:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Gracias

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 26, 2011 12:18 AM EST up reply actions  

All of this is wrong

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 26, 2011 4:51 AM EST up reply actions  

bgh:
Schumaker was worth negative WAR just last season.

As far as I can see, Schumaker was worth 0.6 WAR on both BR and FG last year. I suspect he’s probably a 0.5-1 WAR player (generously) next year, although his age and last year’s K/BB ratio would concern me somewhat. I think he was also legitimately better in the field (at 2B) in 2011 than he has been before.

He’s a mediocre player but is probably better than the 25th man on many rosters league-wide. I just don’t really want him on the Cardinals, when there are better options.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 26, 2011 11:06 AM EST up reply actions  

I've seen this comment a lot about skip at 2b "skip looked better in the field this year"

What about him looked better?

The defensive stats don’t back it up. I guess it’s the ole eye test – which is fine. I just find it interesting because my eye test said skip was worse than ever at 2b and looked absolutely horrible at 2b. Range, hands, and transitions were abominable.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 26, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

defensive stats do back it up

he went from being historically bad at 2B, to just a bit below average.

"Now that they've come out with that great stat, 'innings pitched per inning'-- is there anything they don't have a stat for these days?" -Al Hraboski, 3 Jun 11

by SleepyCA on Nov 26, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Which defensive stats?

UZR shows him to be worse than he was in his first year at 2b.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 26, 2011 7:16 PM EST up reply actions  

UZR has pretty astronomical error bars

I think it’s fairer to say that it shows him to be as bad as he was in his first year at 2B. He was slightly worse in 2010, but again I’d imagine that’s all well within the range of performance variance/measurement error of UZR.

Regardless, I guess we can all agree he pretty much sucks defensively as a second baseman and is likely to continue to suck in the future.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 27, 2011 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Also

not sure how Skip can be touted for a “super-utility” role when he only plays one position well (corner OF), and two pretty appallingly (CF and 2B). Surely you need some actual positional flexibility for that?

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 26, 2011 11:01 AM EST up reply actions  

at least we can be confident

that Corey Patterson and Ryan Theriot will never put on a Cardinals uniform again.

#12in12

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Nov 25, 2011 9:17 PM EST up reply actions  

If we retain Skip, I'll be a bit pissed off

I actually quite like the guy but we clearly have two left-handed options at 2B and OF (Descalso and Chambers) who are as good or better. He’s absolutely fungible to our team, even more so than Theriot (who, at least, could be a right-handed platoon mate for Descalso).

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 26, 2011 11:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Hairston is probably about league-average over a full season, and can play SS

I think we’re probably over-valuing Descalso and Greene if we don’t think he’s a likely minor upgrade over either of them next year. Agree about the rest of those guys though.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 26, 2011 10:59 AM EST up reply actions  

A likely minor upgrade

but he would cost quite a bit more.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 26, 2011 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Hairston signed for $2m last year

likely won’t cost any more this year. Given the league minimum is ~500k, I wouldn’t say that is “quite a bit more”. $1.5m isn’t much more than 1% of our 2012 payroll.

Honestly, if we can get Hairston and Punto for like $3-4m, that’s probably better value for us than getting Furcal for twice that.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 27, 2011 10:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Not convinced Carlos Guillen is a middle infielder in anyone's reality anymore

but I guess a cheap deal on a backup (Santiago and Hairston are probably my favourite options). If we didn’t sign Pujols I’d be making a play for Johnson and Furcal, though.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 26, 2011 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

or a Low A SS/2B type

even if their numbers aren’t great, Robby Cano and Hanley Ramirez both sprang out of nowhere to become top players

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I can see the point on Cano

But not on Ramirez. He was a top 20 prospect as far back as 2003 and spent 4 years at the top of prospects lists before breaking out.

But to your first point, I’d trade KMac for anything potentially useful, including some popeye’s chicken and biscuits.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 25, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I think some scouting reports on Hanley before being dealt to Florida were that he just wasn't putting out any effort.

But he was always recognized for having excellent tools and ability.

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment." -- Woody Allen

by Cardinals645 on Nov 25, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough I was more thinking of the .720 OPS in AA

suddenly becoming an .833 OPS in a pitchers park. Everyone knew Hanley had talent but nobody was predicting a .332/.386/.562 line with 29 HR and 51SB behemoth. Obviously he was good as he was packaged for a top 10-15 3B and an ace pitcher

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I lived in Boston at the time of the Hanley/Beckett trade

and people thought Hanley was going to be a star, but you have to give up something to get something (unless the trade involves Vernon Wells, of course).

by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 25, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I have mentioned it before but the Rockies turned down

Vernon Wells, Chris Carpenter, and Roy Halladay for Pedro Astacio and Jose Jimenez at the 1999 deadline because they thought they were close. That they got Jermaine Dye for Neifi Perez at the next deadline doesn’t take the sting out of that one

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

The really awful thing is that was the offseason

they gave 200 million to Neagle and Hampton

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

good times.

Just the mention of Neifi Perez made me laugh.

Then I thought about Skip Schumaker and Ryan Theriot and it didn’t seem so funny anymore.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 25, 2011 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

That KC FO of the late 90's early 00's ought

to have been sued for malpractice. 27YO Jermaine Dye, 26YO Johnny Damon, and 26YO Carlos Beltran, 22YO Mark Ellis, returns Roberto Hernandez, Neifi Perez, John Buck, Mark Teahan, Mike Wood, Angel Berroa.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd probably settle for not paying KMac....

anything else is gravy.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2011 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Yea, but wasn't there system kind of shitty at the time?

the in-system ranking isn’t all that relevant compared to their overall quality. At the time Cleto was a guy threw hard, but had lousy numbers in A-Ball because his lack of control led to high walks, and unimpressive K rates.

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment." -- Woody Allen

by Cardinals645 on Nov 25, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Ugh, their system.

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment." -- Woody Allen

by Cardinals645 on Nov 25, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, their system was much weaker then.

Point being that Kmac certainly wouldn’t get you a “cleto-type prospect” if you mean cleto today and it’s also doubtful that he’d get you a “cleto-type prospect” if you mean cleto at the time of the ryan trade (meaning an A-ball prospect with a 98mph arm and control problems).

KMac might be worth a triple-A loogy, at best. We’re just not going to get any sort of actual prospect for him.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 25, 2011 4:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Yea, I don't think we can really hope for much upside back in a potential K-Mc trade.

Best hope would basically be another Hawksworth-Theriot, but hopefully for a Theriot who can provide league average defense at SS.

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment." -- Woody Allen

by Cardinals645 on Nov 25, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

That would work for me

I think I’d do that for a MIF retread in arbitration. Not sure I can think of a good target, though?

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2011 5:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I depends on if anyone sees him as a starter

a guy with a career 3.6 ERA who started 17 Games last year might bring back something useful

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

215-FRE-CASH

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 25, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

He is a bit long on SP but Ed Wade is available

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Yea, it's not that K-Mac is really that awful; it's that his salary is due to go up right when the farm produced a number of guys that are cheaper and better.

There’s just not room for another reliever on the roster. It’s also the reason I’m not that interested in Dotel coming back (even though I like him much more than I do K-Mc).

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment." -- Woody Allen

by Cardinals645 on Nov 25, 2011 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

plus Scrabble fills the role of potential 6-7th starter

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Definitely plus maybe they can package him with little Carp

for something good

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Yea, there are really a number of options now. Cleto and Dickson could fill in too depending on how Cleto pitches and how long the team needs someone for.

I think Zep is lastish until we get another reliable bullpen lefty.

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment." -- Woody Allen

by Cardinals645 on Nov 25, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Ah, yea, this too.

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment." -- Woody Allen

by Cardinals645 on Nov 25, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah Jackson and Dotel gives the Cards 4 picks in the top 100

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

That Octavio Dotel would have returned a potentially higher

reward than Albert Pujols tells you how dumb the old CBA

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Pujols will have the highest Elias ranking in baseball

so no way Dotel would’ve yielded a higher pick (although I suppose you’re technically correct in that a team with an unprotected pick could’ve signed Dotel and a team with a protected pick sign Pujols, but I’m thinking that’s pretty unlikely).

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

The Cubs have a protected pick as do the Marlins

and Dotel probably wouldn’t have rejected arb if he had type A, but Edwin Jackson easily could have returned a higher comp

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, either way

he’s ahead of Octavio F’ing Dotel.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 26, 2011 11:07 AM EST up reply actions  

and also

Braun isn’t a free agent next year, so it’s kinda moot.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 26, 2011 11:07 AM EST up reply actions  

it's totally moot

but i’m a bitch, and Pujols does not have the highest Elias ranking. :P

by tehzachatak on Nov 26, 2011 8:47 PM EST up reply actions  

No, Kmac really IS that awful. From 2008-2011 combined, he's been worth 0.1fWAR.

You know who the only pitchers are who have pitched more than 300 innings during this time, but who have a lower fWAR? Miguel Batista, Jeff Suppan and Oliver Perez.

KMac is in the same league (but worse than) guys like Brian Tallet (307 innings, 0.3fWAR) and Todd Wellemayer (372 innings, 0.7FWAR).

KMac is a Missouri-born version of Guillermo Mota. No thank you.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 25, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

but ERA

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Going into this season he had 0.8 fWAR in his career.

I think there’s an argument to be made that a lot of his decline in value this year is due to his use as a starter. He never really turned it on as a reliever afterward Jackson’s acquisition, but his entire negative value came in a year he was used in a role he never should have been put into. It wouldn’t surprise me if he goes back to putting up so-so numbers as a reliever next year.

That said, the Cardinals have better options, so I hope he pitches elsewhere.

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment." -- Woody Allen

by Cardinals645 on Nov 25, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I agree with this

KMac isn’t great but as the last arm out of the pen, he’s probably better than a lot of alternatives (Batista, Brad Thompson etc.). I’m guessing he remains a hair’s-breadth-above-replacement-level relief pitcher, which is probably worth $1-2m or so on the open market.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

he beats having say Randy Flores there

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 25, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

The facts...

Kmac has been worth 0.3fWAR as a starter in his career (104 innings).

Kmac has been worth -0.1fWAR as a reliever (254 innings).

IMO, it’s an exercise in speculative narrative-building to say that he actually became a worse reliever because he spent time as a starter.

In any event, no matter how you slice it, he is a replacement-level pitcher that should be jettisoned.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 25, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Where did you find those splits for his fWAR as a starter reliever? I couldn't find any.

And it’s also worth noting he pitched twice as many innings as he normally would have this year, and it was his last 37+ innings, when his arm would have been most worn out, that he pitched as a reliever.

He might be truly awful, but I’ll be interested in seeing how he pitches for the non-Cardinals next year.

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment." -- Woody Allen

by Cardinals645 on Nov 25, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

You can go to the fangraphs "leaders" section

then go to “pitching leaders” and then manipulate the table for starters or relievers (as well as innings, league, team, years, etc.).

Also, you say his arm would have been “most worn out” during his last 37 innings, but his velocity went back up after shifting back to the pen. And, his velocities at the end of the year were in line with the other years in his career, when, as a reliever, his velocities also declined later in the year.

Again, I could easily hypothsize that his starter’s workload conditioned his arm to be “stronger” at the end of the year, or I could say that regardless of him being a starter/reliever, he always tired at the end of the year.

The better thing to do, IMO, is to look at his career, see that he is a replacement level player, and then get rid of him.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 25, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Prior to last season he was a tick replacement in the pen

I think there’s a reasonable argument that throwing 104 IP as a starter last year basically wore him out and he sucked down the stretch from the pen. He’s also been a tad unlucky on flyballs for his career, or so it would seem, for a guy who pitches in Busch.

I’d say he’s still a good bet to be a tick above replacement as a reliever, which makes him maybe our 7th best RP at this moment, but certainly not worth paying any money to. He isn’t COMPLETELY without value, though (even though I’ve argued further up that he’d yield basically nothing in trade).

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2011 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

due

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 25, 2011 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Holy shit

yeah, I thought a multi-year deal seemed crazy. But $7m+/yr? Wow. Not sure I’d have given him 1yr/$4m.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2011 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

HEH

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 25, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

too poor was the correct answer

damn fire, or damn too much traffic for my mobile to allow mto comment on

by mattyfrommo on Nov 26, 2011 2:03 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

There are few things that I hate more than Christmas music.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Nov 25, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions   4 recs

Word

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment." -- Woody Allen

by Cardinals645 on Nov 25, 2011 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

There are about 10 Christmas songs that I like

most of them are non-traditional, example, John Lennon’s “Happy Christmas (War is Over)”

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Nov 25, 2011 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I look forward to seeing TSO each year

for much the same reason.

"Now that they've come out with that great stat, 'innings pitched per inning'-- is there anything they don't have a stat for these days?" -Al Hraboski, 3 Jun 11

by SleepyCA on Nov 25, 2011 6:40 PM EST up reply actions  

It was Christmas eve, babe

In the drunk tank,
The old man said to me
“won’t see another one…”

"You've got to have an attitude if your going to go far in this game." -- Bob Gibson

by cyclone on Nov 26, 2011 9:12 PM EST up reply actions  

there's a lot of awesome unconventional Christmas music i like

Blink 182 – I won’t be home for Christmas
South Park’s – Merry F’ing Christmas
The Chimpmunk’s Christmas Song
The Peanuts Christmas Song
Frank Sinatra – Silent Night
Mariah Carey – All i want for Christmas is you
The Pogues – Fairytale of New York
Trans Siberian Orchestra – Carol of the Bells, Wish List & Wizards In Winter
Your Vegas – Christman & me are through

Balls

by gdm426 on Nov 25, 2011 9:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Die Hard

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2011 7:33 PM EST up reply actions  

This is playing at the Laurelhurst in December.

Finally, I get to see Bruce Willis kill terrorists in a good movie on the big screen!

by mattisnotfrench on Nov 26, 2011 3:47 AM EST up reply actions  

I started hearing xmas music

over a week ago. My brain hurts.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 25, 2011 8:05 PM EST up reply actions  

only a week! lucky

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2011 8:09 PM EST up reply actions  

alright VEB i need your photoshop skills

i need someone to put Santa hats on these two pics & then email them to me please. i tried w/ gimp & the result was less than ideal.

Balls

by gdm426 on Nov 25, 2011 5:13 PM EST reply actions  

and wearing sunglasses

haven’t you noticed it’s been my twitter avatar for about a year?

Balls

by gdm426 on Nov 25, 2011 10:01 PM EST up reply actions  

i know that

but i guess i just never felt a need to do it

by prophetjohn on Nov 25, 2011 10:07 PM EST up reply actions  

for all of them?

maybe if it’s like the actual person and i want to see what they look like, but not just as a rule

by prophetjohn on Nov 25, 2011 10:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Isn't mine AWESOME?

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 26, 2011 12:51 AM EST up reply actions  

Twitter?

What’s that?

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 26, 2011 1:16 AM EST up reply actions  

If Alabama, ok state, Stanford, and VT all lose

Will Houston or Boise state get a BCS shot?

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Nov 25, 2011 5:56 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

I hope not.

I’d much rather see Alabama, Oklahoma State, Stanford, or Virginia Tech play in the BCS.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 25, 2011 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I hate the BCS so much

I want I to happen just so there will be outrage

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Nov 25, 2011 6:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

alabama or okie state, plz.

stanford has no defense and virginia tech is overrated like they are every year.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I think VT loses to UVa tomorrow

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Nov 25, 2011 6:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

no way.

i’d bet my sig/avatar on it.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

It's at Virginia, and Virgina is a better team than you think

VT has struggled to score at times this year, and Virginia will look at this game like their national championship game

I think they could pull the upset

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Nov 25, 2011 6:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

not happening.

just….not. i would love it but it’s not happening.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 6:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I like your reasoning

You might be right

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Nov 25, 2011 6:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

What about USC

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 25, 2011 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Heh

Carroll’d

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Nov 25, 2011 6:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I can't believe Oregon lost to USC

That damn kicker.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 25, 2011 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

holy shit, haha

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 26, 2011 11:45 AM EST up reply actions  

You're probably more familiar with the sanctions USC received from the NCAA than I am.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 25, 2011 6:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Boo this man.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 25, 2011 6:53 PM EST up reply actions  

no

TLR is gone, long live the king

by sportsman on Nov 25, 2011 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

houston MIGHT.

but they shouldn’t. lsu would blow them out of the fucking water. it wouldn’t be pretty.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 6:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd love to see Keenum against that defense

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Nov 25, 2011 6:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I would push

The sacks over/under would be 5.5

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Nov 25, 2011 6:14 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

i'm just sick of these lower conference teams...

thinking they can roll through a patsy schedule and have legitimate national title game arguments. it’s just has no merit. when you play a schedule that 30% of all power six teams would roll through, you don’t get to go to the national title game.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 6:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I think they should be given a chance

National playoff, top 8 teams in BCS. If they can make it to the final game, they are for real. I they can’t, it doesnt matter anyways

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Nov 25, 2011 6:33 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

The problem with that is

that some of those teams try to play a better schedule, but none of the LSU’s and Oklahoma’s of college football will play them, for the fear of actually losing to them.

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Nov 25, 2011 6:39 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

well, yeah.

but it is what it is. unfortunate but still the truth.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 6:39 PM EST up reply actions  

True

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Nov 25, 2011 6:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

a little bit....

it’s so different on a year to year basis though. TCU and boise state have both beaten big time programs during a certain year but that’s no way to gauge whether or not they could do it on a year to year basis. or beat the best team in the country in a national championship game.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

This. So much this.

Play Boise State or Houston? No thanks.
Play Sam Houston State or Montana? Sign me up.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 25, 2011 6:55 PM EST up reply actions  

but can you blame them?

why schedule a possible loss when you could schedule a certain win and more or less not suffer any consequences. power six schools don’t have ayn incentive to play strong mid majors, so they just don’t.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 6:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Then don't complain about having to include them at the table.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 25, 2011 6:58 PM EST up reply actions  

but they don't deserve to be.

i’m not saying it’s fair or right or whatever, but they don’t belong at the table with the schedule they play 90% of the time. SOS arguments are used all the the time in comparisons between power six schools, it’s only fair to use them when comparing mid major to power six.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 7:00 PM EST up reply actions  

i just don't think SOS is legitimate in college football

it’s legitimate in the NFL, with the weird schedules and all, but as of now Boise State will ::never:: have a good schedule, so even if they beat everyone 60-0 all year, i’m not even sure they’d get a chance to play in the title game.

the whole college football system is just so fucked.

by tehzachatak on Nov 25, 2011 7:04 PM EST up reply actions  

you're right to a point...

but is there really any doubt that one loss alabama or one loss oklahoma state is better than undefeated houston? no, and it’s because of SOS. they’re probably not as legitimate in college as they are in the nfl, but it still holds some merit.

but yeah we need a playoff. i’d have no problem with giving houston like a 8-seed an a first round date with LSU in an eight team playoff.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, i'm not debating that it has relevance

it does, and i guess in a truly fair system it should be considered, the system just isn’t fair.
i guess all i’m arguing is that the “i’m sick of the lower conference schools” thing is unfair, because it’s no their fault.

by tehzachatak on Nov 25, 2011 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

fair enough.

i’m just sick of the system for allowing it to happen more than anything.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 7:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Its a never ending cycle for a Boise St or a Nevada or a Houston

they can rarely improve their SOS because they’re good enough for an LSU or an Ohio St or a Florida to not want to play them. It happens in college basketball too, but at least they have a tournament that sorts it out better.

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Nov 25, 2011 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

n/s

college basketball is unique in the fact that you can not win a regular season game but still win the national championship.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

true, thats not what I was going for though

The SOS struggle between BCS schools and mid-majors exists in BB too, but at least they can overcome it, because they play more games and have the automatic bids. But the same thing happens; How many times do you see Duke or Kansas play a school like Butler or SIUC during the regular season? And even if they do its always at home or a neutral site.

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Nov 25, 2011 7:50 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, but those teams get their due in basketball.

and sometimes it ends in magical runs a la butler the last few years.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 7:52 PM EST up reply actions  

exactly, and this is why I'm not a big fan of college football

that and the whole BCS process

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Nov 25, 2011 7:03 PM EST up reply actions  

sort of, but really its money

teams like bsu and tcu have typically no been willing to pay the biggies w/o a home and home
they have small stadiums
so, no money in it

TLR is gone, long live the king

by sportsman on Nov 25, 2011 7:46 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah this too.

so not only do the power six teams have to play a more-than-loseable game, they have to go on the road to do it.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 7:49 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, i skipped it.

i suggest doing the same.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 7:42 PM EST up reply actions  

will do.

i’ll find someone awesome to move in with them.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 7:44 PM EST up reply actions  

you do have to ask them first

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2011 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

That fink

He was a good man. We shall miss him dearly.

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 25, 2011 7:53 PM EST up reply actions  

is that grave supposed to be moving?

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2011 7:54 PM EST up reply actions  

...

RE-SIGN ALBERT PUJOLS!

by a fink on Nov 25, 2011 7:57 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

needs a bit of a contrast job

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2011 7:58 PM EST up reply actions  

\o

can’t leave a zombro hangin’.

> tebow

by cschepers on Nov 25, 2011 8:00 PM EST up reply actions   3 recs

VEB will never be the same without him

Until his offspring are old enough to VEB

RE-SIGN EVERYONE

by Notorious PSC on Nov 25, 2011 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

offspring have to replenish our farm system!

but hopefully by then they can tweet directly into VEB

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2011 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

clank you!

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2011 7:59 PM EST up reply actions   3 recs

i was informed by an acquintance that they had a dream about Jon Jay

he had cornrows

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2011 8:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Just out of curiosity

at what point did Albert, in your opinion, cross the threshold to become a HOFer (assuming he’s crossed that threshold, in your HO)? Did he do enough by his 6th season? His 7th? Or was it winning his 2nd MVP after his 8th year? I guess I’m more interested in your own standards, rather than those supposedly used by the BBWAA. Or you could go with 2 answers. Personally, I think if he had died, or quit, or had a career-ending injury after his 6th season, when he had his first WS ring, I think he should have been inducted with those stats. I’m not sure that would have been enough for the BBWAA, but after 2008, I think they would have definitely let him in.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 25, 2011 7:21 PM EST reply actions  

I'm still holding my breath hoping nothing bad comes from this HGH testing business...

Manny Ramirez & Palmeiro certainly would’ve been an easy HOF’er if it weren’t for steroid testing.

#12in12

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Nov 25, 2011 7:27 PM EST up reply actions  

easy Hof'ers*

added Manny in right before posting.

#12in12

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Nov 25, 2011 7:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Can probably throw Sosa and McGwire in there as well

and, bizarrely despite the lack of any evidence whatsoever he did them, Bagwell (who I think would prob be in if he was squeaky clean). I still think Bonds probably makes it, though.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 26, 2011 11:15 AM EST up reply actions  

after 8th or ninth

TLR is gone, long live the king

by sportsman on Nov 25, 2011 7:47 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, i was gonna say 8

if Albert Pujols had tragically died in a plane crash airlifting help to (insert something here) after his 8th year, i think he’d be an immediate HOF inclusion

by tehzachatak on Nov 25, 2011 8:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Perhaps you are trying to avoid this issue by specifically not applying BBWAA standards

but 10 seasons playing are required to get in the HOF. Seems silly to have a conversation without even acknowledging this bare minimum. Addie Joss was granted a special waiver – he played only 9 seasons.

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 25, 2011 8:01 PM EST up reply actions  

now you know

and knowing is half the battle

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2011 8:08 PM EST up reply actions  

yo
and knowing is half the battle

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2011 8:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Interesting Addie Joss tidbits.

Threw a perfect game with 74 pitches. Started his career with the Cleveland Bronchos. Died at 31 from meningitis. The first all-star game played was a fundraiser for his family. 1.89 lifetime ERA ranks second all-time ( I know, I know, VEB hates ERA. But still … Career WAR 40.9 in only 9 seasons. Worked as a sports writer in the off season. Only HOF player with less than a 10 year career.

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 25, 2011 8:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm betting that if Albert had died anytime after his 8th season

that they’d make an exception for him, too.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 25, 2011 8:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmm. Tenses not right.

Subjunctive?

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 25, 2011 8:27 PM EST up reply actions  

One of the many reasons I enjoy VEB!

Thanks for the very interesting bit of history, I just googled him:

Both no-hitters were against the Chicago White Sox; to date, Joss is the only pitcher in Major League history to no-hit the same team twice.
source:wikipedia

11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 9:36 AM EST up reply actions  

merit badge

for superior blcokquoting

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 26, 2011 10:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Career WAR of 40.9 in 9 seasons isn't really HOF quality, to be fair

Most guys have a better peak than that. I’d imagine there are at least a dozen guys who put up more than 41 WAR across 9 years who aren’t in the hall.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 26, 2011 11:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Red lasers are 25% of the rest

"You've got to have an attitude if your going to go far in this game." -- Bob Gibson

by cyclone on Nov 26, 2011 9:17 PM EST up reply actions  

You know

I had this niggling feeling in the back of my mind that this might have been the case, but rather than check on the rules first, I just went with the post. Anyway, that niggling feeling might have been zombie worms, so I wanted to ignore it.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 25, 2011 8:20 PM EST up reply actions  

zombies in St. Louis... this is what they sound like
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2011 8:22 PM EST up reply actions  

It takes 10 seasons to qualify.

I’d say he qualified at that point.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 25, 2011 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Absolutely.

First ballot ?

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 25, 2011 9:43 PM EST up reply actions  

8 years, I think

But as has probably been noted elsewhere, you need to play for 10 in any case. He’s a shoe-in (obv) now.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 26, 2011 11:13 AM EST up reply actions  

apparently we ARE making pie.

http://www.ticketnews.com/news/St-Louis-Cardinals-bump-up-ticket-prices112511756

DeWitt cites stubhub.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2011 8:18 PM EST reply actions  

Doing some quick math

Projecting attendance of 40,000 per game, the cited 3% ticket price hike will increase gate receipts by $3.0M. Based upon a projected AP salary of 25.0M, the increase would pay for about 20 games of His Mangness.

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 25, 2011 8:28 PM EST up reply actions  

how much is that in aaron miles

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2011 10:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Too many

I can see for miles and miles

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 26, 2011 1:34 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Pipe down

and go eat some more bacon

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 26, 2011 2:01 AM EST up reply actions  

I suggest

you begin to drink heavily

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 26, 2011 2:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Microwave popcorn ??

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 26, 2011 2:23 AM EST up reply actions  

You'd better go to bed

or come over for some food.

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 26, 2011 2:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for the warning.

Actually, i think I’m about done for the night. Have a good one.

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 26, 2011 2:54 AM EST up reply actions  

it's probably for the best

if my family in Kennewick knew i was out there & didn’t visit them i’d never hear the end of it

Balls

by gdm426 on Nov 26, 2011 3:13 AM EST up reply actions  

it feels morally wrong to pay that much for beer

so I stick with bringing in a bottle of “soda”

by David201 on Nov 25, 2011 11:09 PM EST up reply actions  

They let you do that? Do they check to see if it's been opened?

I might bring in some “water” next year then. Gin is clear and refreshing

11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 9:42 AM EST up reply actions  

I have a hard time arguing with their logic

but I don’t have to like it. Looks like I’ll be going to more Blues games.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Nov 25, 2011 11:28 PM EST up reply actions  

describe your level of blues fandom to me.

i didn’t have you pegged as a hockey person.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I haven't been to a Blues game in three years.

Last time I watched a hockey game, it was the Blues… in the playoffs when they got swept.

will do ANYTHING for a rec

by stlcardsfan4 on Nov 25, 2011 11:35 PM EST up reply actions  

It's supposed to be interesting.

But I find it extremely boring.

will do ANYTHING for a rec

by stlcardsfan4 on Nov 25, 2011 11:45 PM EST up reply actions  

soccer>gdm426, soccer>The Ghost of Todd Burns

soccer>pro basketball, soccer>ice hockey

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 26, 2011 12:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Of course they are

Look, blockquotes!

soccer>gdm426, soccer>The Ghost of Todd Burns, soccer>pro basketball, soccer>ice hockey

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 26, 2011 1:18 AM EST up reply actions  

You're right, it isn't half as bad

it’s TWICE as bad.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 26, 2011 3:11 AM EST up reply actions  

i haven't seen a game since Jordan retired the last time

i’ve seen parts & they were pretty bad, but there’s nothing worse than soccer

Balls

by gdm426 on Nov 26, 2011 3:17 AM EST up reply actions  

I concur w/ this part
soccer>pro basketball, soccer>ice hockey

no comment on rest

11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 9:59 AM EST up reply actions  

But, that could almost anytime they were in the playoffs...

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 26, 2011 12:53 AM EST up reply actions  

*could be

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 26, 2011 12:54 AM EST up reply actions  

casual

I bought tickets with friends this year. I watch the occasional game on the TV. I can probably name about a dozen players. I have no idea if the team is good or who is good and bad. I just like watching it live and with groups of friends.

I don’t really want to understand it any better than I do. To some extent, and I know this plays into the hardcore seamheads hands, understanding baseball has made it more difficult to enjoy the games at times.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Nov 25, 2011 11:45 PM EST up reply actions  

fair enough, i can respect that.

i’m about the same way, though i’m annoyed that i only get the option to watch a game occasionally because FSM is weird in kirksville. i check the standings maybe once a week and know the blues have been playing much better recently and may actually be in a position for a playoff spot.

and i think hockey is easily the sport that’s most improved by actually being there.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 11:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Jackson and arb

Did anyone else find the decision to offer arb odd? if he would accept, do they move westy? Given the playoffs, I think he is the odd man out. even though that would be challenging.

I doubt Jackson accepts but just found it interesting

because TLR

by punchinjudy on Nov 25, 2011 8:29 PM EST reply actions  

there's just no way he accepts, so it's a moot point

he’s set for a 4-year deal, so there’s not reason for him to accept. i guess if he, like, accepted by accident or something, it would probably be mostly good thing. they could move westbrook or jackson

by prophetjohn on Nov 25, 2011 8:31 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, this.

but he won’t accept, so it doesn’t matter. he’s due 4/48

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 8:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Aren't the Yankees interested in him?

11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 10:02 AM EST up reply actions  

If he accepted arb

I guess he gets like a 1 year, $10m contract, tops, which is probably a good $5-10m in surplus value. We could then deal him to someone who needs pitching (New York?) for a decent (say, B-grade) prospect. It’s pretty much all profit, as far as scenarios go….

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 26, 2011 11:21 AM EST up reply actions  

What would it take to acquire Jason Donald?

Seems like the Indians are all set at 2B and SS with Cabrera and Kipnis. I’d love to see Tyler Greene and Donald battle it out for the starting 2B or SS job. Might even go with the pair up the middle, though I imagine they’d like at least one vet in the mix. Donald, Greene, Punto, and Descalso sounds like an okay set of MIF’ers to me.

#12in12

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Nov 25, 2011 8:40 PM EST reply actions  

Donald pretty much IS Tyler Greene, I think

and he hit pretty well last year so I’m guessing it takes one of our better pitching prospects (outside of Miller and C-Mart, obv) plus maybe something else. Maybe Jordan Swagerty?

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 26, 2011 11:23 AM EST up reply actions  

i'm hella bi-polar during them, once second i'm ready to jump off the roof

the next i’m sipping hot chocolate & jamming to Christmas music

Balls

by gdm426 on Nov 25, 2011 9:26 PM EST up reply actions  

How's this avatar for Christmas?

11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 10:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Su-weeeeeeet

batter

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 26, 2011 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Both of you're replies are interesting are you making fun of me?

Or just being nice?

Tells self “I am not paranoid”

11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 6:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Vox/Verge/SBN

is really making me hate Jackie Chan.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 25, 2011 9:42 PM EST reply actions  

Well this break has been complete shit

Family is bad, friends are worse, good thing I don’t have to come back again for a while……..oh wait

RE-SIGN EVERYONE

by Notorious PSC on Nov 25, 2011 10:03 PM EST reply actions  

21

In between looking after my sister’s kid, the family fights, and my high school friends ignoring me I’m generally in a lousy mood. I also have to hide any booze/money I have because my sister will steal it

RE-SIGN EVERYONE

by Notorious PSC on Nov 25, 2011 10:12 PM EST up reply actions  

wow.

your sister sounds like a bitch.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 10:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I hear you brother...

I hear ya…

Piss off Tony, get shipped to Canada.

by beer me on Nov 25, 2011 11:05 PM EST up reply actions  

obviously.

going anywhere?

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 10:24 PM EST up reply actions  

nope

Smart enough to go somewhere before she decided life would be better if she only made bad decisions. Ship has pretty much sailed at this point.

RE-SIGN EVERYONE

by Notorious PSC on Nov 25, 2011 10:29 PM EST up reply actions  

we are asking them first, right? right?

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2011 10:55 PM EST up reply actions  

does anyone else find it a little too cute

that the two most prominent stlcardinalsfan[whatever]s are constantly feuding?

by prophetjohn on Nov 25, 2011 11:29 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

i just really enjoy giving gabe crap.

he knows i’m full of shit.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 11:31 PM EST up reply actions  

She does have a kid

if that answers your question

RE-SIGN EVERYONE

by Notorious PSC on Nov 25, 2011 11:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm going to be ill.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Nov 25, 2011 11:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I swear I'm just kidding.

I just felt like being the creepy horny teenager tonight.

will do ANYTHING for a rec

by stlcardsfan4 on Nov 25, 2011 11:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Well

you can check that off your bucket list.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Nov 25, 2011 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Really.

Can you just ban all these guys, please?

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 26, 2011 1:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes...very funny

11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 10:08 AM EST up reply actions  

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2011 11:24 PM EST up reply actions  

OOOOOOuld someone please ban this meme?

azru, looking at you.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 26, 2011 1:02 AM EST up reply actions  

The idea of "memes that should die" post

sends Y2S into apoplectic fits.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Nov 26, 2011 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, don't upset him

11 in '11, Check.
12 in 12, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

by I-Musial-ly-Am on Nov 26, 2011 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

why didn't anyone tell me?

this is just like the 7th grade all over again!

Balls

by gdm426 on Nov 25, 2011 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

no.

Piss off Tony, get shipped to Canada.

by beer me on Nov 25, 2011 11:11 PM EST up reply actions  

i keep seeing all these stories about it in on the trade websites, like TVLine&EW

and i keep wondering who is watching it, the pilot was really, really bad & it’s getting good ratings. i just don’t get the attraction

Balls

by gdm426 on Nov 25, 2011 11:19 PM EST up reply actions  

i like both FX & horror but that show was stupid

i should have expected nothing less from the guys who make glee

Balls

by gdm426 on Nov 25, 2011 11:22 PM EST up reply actions  

i haven't eaten since 3:30.

i’m sick of leftovers and there’s nothing else in the house and i have little free spending money. i’m stuck.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 25, 2011 11:39 PM EST up reply actions  

i will have to agree with gdm.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2011 11:45 PM EST up reply actions  

yes, but

burnt ends every day at 1 gram per day, and you’ll still starve to death in like 57 minutes.

In love with the new Gaknar avatar.

by threadkiller on Nov 25, 2011 11:56 PM EST up reply actions  

how was i supposed to know that?

i thought you were a vegan all this time.

In love with the new Gaknar avatar.

by threadkiller on Nov 26, 2011 12:07 AM EST up reply actions  

now i can't even pop freaking popcorn because we're out of oil

THEY’RE NOT FEEDING ME AT THIS HOUSE

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 26, 2011 12:00 AM EST reply actions  

in reality,

isn’t a microwave more likely than a frigging 80’s model air popper???

In love with the new Gaknar avatar.

by threadkiller on Nov 26, 2011 12:08 AM EST up reply actions  

my family had one

but we got rid of it in the 80’s. WHEN THEY INVENTED MICROWAVE POPCORN!!

/doesn’t know why he’s yelling

In love with the new Gaknar avatar.

by threadkiller on Nov 26, 2011 12:13 AM EST up reply actions  

trying to kill the thread?

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 26, 2011 12:14 AM EST up reply actions  

waving yadi 2 second?

In love with the new Gaknar avatar.

by threadkiller on Nov 26, 2011 12:15 AM EST up reply actions  

LoMoGoHoHo
LoMoMarlins Logan Morrison
Breaking News: Talked to my boy Pujols, he said he wont be playing with the Birds anymore…
LoMoMarlins Logan Morrison
Should’ve been more clear, my buddy Renee Pujols’ landlord is making him get rid of his beloved pet cockatoos…

"I don’t like the feeling of losing."---Chris Carpenter

by cardsfan59 on Nov 26, 2011 12:16 AM EST reply actions   2 recs

Funny

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 26, 2011 12:17 AM EST up reply actions  

I saw the first one come through.

After that, I was just waiting for the punch line. I’m on to you, LoMoGoHoRo.

#HappySeason

by The Continental on Nov 26, 2011 12:18 AM EST up reply actions  

just gonna leave this here. . . $70 and it's yours

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 26, 2011 12:46 AM EST reply actions  

you'll probably also want to invest

in some heart-shaped pillows with each of your names sewn on them. This should seal the deal.

#12in12

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Nov 26, 2011 1:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Towels ????

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 26, 2011 1:53 AM EST up reply actions  

only if i play it cool

ah who are we kidding? i’m GDF’ingM, i’m cooler than the other side of the pillow

Balls

by gdm426 on Nov 26, 2011 1:56 AM EST up reply actions  

if you are really interested

and haven’t figured it out yet, that’s one of those magical link pictures.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 26, 2011 12:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Why so it is.

But why buy only 1 and save $80. Buy 10 and save $800

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 26, 2011 1:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Or where I come from we call that...

keeping it classy.

"…this crowd is on their feet for the Canadian Star Spangled Banner." - Mike Shannon

by ducttape16 on Nov 26, 2011 1:04 AM EST up reply actions  

I would hope.

"…this crowd is on their feet for the Canadian Star Spangled Banner." - Mike Shannon
\mm/

by ducttape16 on Nov 26, 2011 1:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Assault

with pepper ?

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 26, 2011 1:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks a lot, pj

now I won’t be able to sleep.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 26, 2011 3:17 AM EST up reply actions  

VEB latenight/early morning

Got a newborn keeping me up all hours of the day and night. Slept about 6 hours total the last four days combined. What can I do sitting one-handed with an iPhone in a chair late-night VEBers?

by DarkHelmut on Nov 26, 2011 6:04 AM EST via iPhone app reply actions  

cards fist base

the cards should not let albert hold the hostage or rob them with a contract with excessive years. I hope they have at least considered fielder who is yonger and would no doubt cost much less than albert in the long haul. although prince is not "the machine " (reference to how fast he recovered from wrist injury last year) he would due the job for years to come (or became too fat to run bases)

by mayman59 on Dec 1, 2011 2:14 PM EST reply actions  

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