Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Cowboys Draft 2012: The Big Board Version 3.0

The Minor Leaguers on the St. Louis Cardinals 40-Man Roster

Photo

On Friday the Cardinals added minor-league pitchers Sam Freeman, Chuckie Fick, and Adam Ottavino to the club's 40-man roster in order to protect the trio from being selected in the Rule V Draft. As Derrick Goold of the Post-Dispatch tweets, the additions brought the Cardinals' 40-man roster total to 36 players. The minor-league players on the current 40-man are an interesting collection of talent. Since each of these players has a leg up on his minor-league peers in the competition to make it to The Show, I thought we might take a look at these prospects today.

In order to try and give you some context for these players' minor league production, I've used Statcorner's wonderful minor league stats for tRA and wOBA, which also include the "plus" stats. The Statcorner glossary, which contains a short explanation for each of the stats, can be found here. I've also included the average age of the league for batters and pitchers, as provided by Baseball America. I used the average MLB age for the 2010 season because I could not find the average age of a major leaguer for the 2011 season.

Star-divide

SAM FREEMAN, LHP

Listed at five-eleven, 175 pounds, this southpaw's June birthday saw him turn the Texas League average age of 24 while he pitched for Springfield this summer. Freeman's fastball reportedly sits in the high-80s, rarely breaking 90 MPH. Freeman's inclusion on the 40-man is puzzling until one takes a step back and looks at the left-handed pitching in the system. There is a southpaw shortage down on the farm. 

 

‘11 Team

League

Level

Age

LAA

tRA

lgTRA

tRA+

tRAr

FIP

SPR

TEX

AA

24.0

24.0

4.53

4.91

108

4.94

4.06

 

CHUCKIE FICK, RHP

Fick is a 6'5" righty who has split time between relieving and starting as he ascended through the organization. In 2010, he made three starts for Memphis but spent all of 2011 in the bullpen where Fick struck out 7.81 batters per nine innings while walking 4.73. Even though the strikeout rate is a bit lower and the walk rate higher than you'd like to see, Fick pitched well compared to his Pacific Coast League peers.

 

Team

League

Level

Age

LAA

tRA

lgTRA

tRA+

tRAr

FIP

MEM

PCL

AAA

25.0

26.9

4.33

5.20

117

5.01

3.37

 

ADAM OTTAVINO, RHP

That Ottavino is the same age as Fick feels surprising--Ottavino feels like he has been around for a long time. After some injury concerns in 2010, Ottavino put together a most Ottavino season for AAA Memphis in 2011. Ottavino's walk rate of 4.53 indicates that the Memphis starter is still struggling with his control. Whether he is able to harness his stuff will determine whether Ottavino is ever able to become a member of the St. Louis bullpen.

 

Team

League

Level

Age

LAA

tRA

lgTRA

tRA+

tRAr

FIP

MEM

PCL

AAA

25.0

26.9

5.52

6.01

108

5.81

4.52

 

BRANDON DICKSON, RHP

Dickson spent his time with AAA Memphis as a starter and had a couple cups of coffee in the St. Louis bullpen where his fastball averaged 90.3 MPH. Dickson's walk rate was miniscule for Memphis at 1.83 over 25 starts. Dickson does not have the fastball that many of the other relievers and would-be relievers bring to the table, which makes him more reliant on command.

 

Team

League

Level

Age

LAA

tRA

lgTRA

tRA+

tRAr

FIP

MEM

PCL

AAA

26.0

26.9

4.92

6.01

118

5.42

1.92

 

MAIKEL CLETO, RHP

Cleto is probably the most intriguing of the pitchers on the 40-man roster due to his 100-MPH fastball and young age. Just 22 in 2011, Cleto pitched at four levels last season: high-A, AA, AAA, and MLB. Cleto pitched well for Palm Beach and Springfield but experienced control problems during his stint in Memphis. It will be interesting to see how Cleto performs in 2012 for Memphis. Before 2011 I assumed Cleto was destined for relief, but, if he can again show the control he found in Palm Beach and Springfield, his future becomes much more enticing.

 

Team

League

Level

Age

LAA

tRA

lgTRA

tRA+

tRAr

FIP

PB

FSL

A+

22.0

23.0

2.91

4.71

138

4.79

3.06

SPR

TEX

AA

22.0

24.0

3.75

5.02

125

4.95

3.23

MEM

PCL

AAA

22.0

26.9

5.46

6.01

109

5.99

4.38

 

MATT CARPENTER, 3B

Carpenter had an impressive Spring Training that led to La Russa keeping him on the big-league squad late into the preseason. He was one of the last players sent to minor-league camp. Carpenter put together another excellent offensive season for AAA Memphis with a .401 wOBA on the foundation of a .419 OBP the result of a 15.7% walk rate. Carpenter also experienced a call-up to St. Louis that more a sip of coffee than a full cup. In his 19 plate appearances, he drew four walks.

 

Team

League

Level

Age

LAA

OPS

wOBA

wOBAr

wOBA+

WAR

MEM

PCL

AAA

25.0

26.8

.880

.401

.405

113

4.2

STL

NL

MLB

25.0

27.2

.396

.217

.293

68

-0.1

 

 MARK HAMILTON, 1B

Hamilton absolutely mashed while in AAA this season but failed to hit much during his 51 PAs in the majors. There are many players like Hamilton on AAA rosters across the Pacific Coast and International Leagues. His future in St. Louis is as tied to the Pujols negotiations as it is to Mike Matt Adams's batting average.

Team

League

Level

Age

LAA

OPS

wOBA

wOBAr

wOBA+

WAR

MEM

PCL

AAA

26.0

26.8

.911

.406

.347

113

1.7

STL

NL

MLB

26.0

27.2

.552

.271

.220

86

-2.0

 

PETE KOZMA, IF

As improbable as it may sound, Kozma spent 2011 in AAA and received a call-up to St. Louis where he received four more plate appearances than Matt Carpenter did. The former first-round pick was in over his head at the AAA level. His poor offensive line is made all the worse by the fact that it was posted by a man playing in a league that is a hitter's paradise. It is confounding that Kozma is still occupying a spot on the 40-man roster.

Team

League

Level

Age

LAA

OPS

wOBA

wOBAr

wOBA+

WAR

MEM

PCL

AAA

23.0

26.8

.569

.267

.291

75

-1.6

STL

NL

MLB

23.0

27.2

.568

.282

.299

89

0.0

 

TYLER GREENE, SS

Greene was recently described by new manager Mike Matheny as the best athlete in the St. Louis Cardinals organization. It's hard to argue with this point of view. Greene possesses a mix of skill that reminds of a created player on a video game: power, speed, strong throwing arm, and a decent walk rate. Unfortunately, he also strikes out a great deal. Greene tore up the Pacific Coast League in 2011 but struggled during his limited time in majors. Out of options and entering his age 28 season, 2012 is Greene's make-or-break season.

 

Team

League

Level

Age

LAA

OPS

wOBA

wOBAr

wOBA+

WAR

MEM

PCL

AAA

27.0

26.8

.990

.435

.409

123

3.5

STL

NL

MLB

27.0

27.2

.610

.312

.310

99

-0.4

 

ZACK COX, 3B

Cox started slow but heated up quickly for Palm Beach. This earned him a quick promotion to Springfield where he played his home games in a wonderful ballpark for left-handed hitters. Cox did not take to the Texas League as quickly as one would hope the most polished hitter in his draft would. Cox is only on the 40-man roster as a result of his contract. Hopefully that won't be true come next Hot Stove.

 

Team

League

Level

Age

LAA

OPS

wOBA

wOBAr

wOBA+

WAR

PB

FSL

A+

22.0

22.8

.819

.375

.376

117

1.5

SPR

TEX

AA

22.0

24.2

.787

.356

.351

102

1.6

 

ADRON CHAMBERS, OF

The view of Chambers within the organization is perhaps evidenced by the fact that Corey Patterson was included in the Rasmus trade and then actually received a fair amount of playing time with the Cardinals. Patterson contributed a .179 wOBA to the Cardinals which opened the door for Chambers once rosters expanded. Chambers kicked the door open with production accompanied by an enthusiastic playing style. It remains to be seen whether the left-handed slap hitter will be able to earn a spot on the 25-man next season.

 

Team

League

Level

Age

LAA

OPS

wOBA

wOBAr

wOBA+

WAR

MEM

PCL

AAA

24.0

26.8

.782

.366

.359

103

2.3

STL

NL

MLB

24.0

27.2

1.000

.420

.356

135

0.1

 

SHANE ROBINSON, OF

In the opening series of the season, Robinson was involved in a brutal outfield collision that caused him to miss a fair chunk of the season. Robinson is a right-handed hitting outfielder that can play any of the three outfield spots. The problem is that Robinson probably isn't a good enough fielder to play center and probably can't hit well enough to play a corner outfield spot. It will be interesting to see if the Cardinals attempt to trade for or sign a right-handed hitting outfielder who can play center field this Hot Stove.

 

Team

League

Level

Age

LAA

OPS

wOBA

wOBAr

wOBA+

WAR

MEM

PCL

AAA

26.0

26.8

.821

.367

.381

105

0.8

STL

NL

MLB

26.0

27.2

.125

.090

.235

28

-0.1

 

BRYAN ANDERSON, C

The once hit-first catching prospect--and a left-handed hitting one at that--Anderson's defense did not meet former manager Tony La Russa's standards. Making matters worse for Anderson is the fact that he has sputtered a bit at AAA, not posting the type of offensive line one would like to see from a hit-first prospect in the hitter-friendly Pacific Coast League. With La Russa retired, general manager John Mozeliak has stated that Anderson will battle Tony Cruz in Spring Training for the back-up catcher role. 

 

Team

League

Level

Age

LAA

OPS

wOBA

wOBAr

wOBA+

WAR

MEM

PCL

AAA

24.0

26.8

.766

.341

.354

96

1.5

 

TONY CRUZ, C

When Gerald Laird suffered an injury this season, Tony Cruz was called up to serve as the back-up to Yadier Molina. Cruz burst onto the big-league scene with a surprisingly hot stretch of hitting. Cruz's numbers for the Cardinals evened out by the end of the season, as numbers often tend to do. Even so, Cruz made an impression and will have the opportunity to earn a spot on the 25-man roster this coming spring.

 

Team

League

Level

Age

LAA

OPS

wOBA

wOBAr

wOBA+

WAR

MEM

PCL

AAA

24.0

26.8

.704

.322

.348

91

0.4

STL

NL

MLB

24.0

27.2

.662

.308

.265

97

0.2

 

ADAM REIEFER, RHP

Reifer is a flame-throwing reliever who made only five relief appearances for AAA Memphis in 2011 before his season was lost to a leg injury. If Reifer earns a major-league paycheck, it will be as a reliever. After his 2010 season for Springfield, he seemed likely to make that happen. If Reiefer is able to return from his injury with his fastball intact and control on par with his 2010, he may cash that first major-league paycheck sooner than later.

Comment 734 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

morning and happy 91st birthday to Stan Musial

but it sucks to wake up to this
Mariners OF Greg Halman stabbed to death; brother arrested

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78

by d-dee on Nov 21, 2011 7:52 AM EST reply actions  

Happy Birthday Stanislav!

That’s a strange story about Halman, to say the least. Who gets stabbed in Amsterdam by their brother?

Nyjer Morgan Fan Club President

by peppermartin on Nov 21, 2011 8:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Read the Wikipedia article on Bison Dele.

He got killed by his brother in a location even weirder than Amsterdam.

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Nov 21, 2011 9:05 AM EST up reply actions  

heh

Hakuna Matata

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Nov 21, 2011 9:21 AM EST up reply actions  

lots of people i suppose

rotterdam is a very strange place

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78

by d-dee on Nov 21, 2011 9:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Indeed

It’s pretty much the home to gabber (and to a lesser extent, terrorcore) which are extremely violent forms of electronic dance music.

Except for that, the vast majority of dance music is about dancing and having a good time and love (whether spiritual or physical).

by DiscoJer on Nov 21, 2011 6:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Not Greg Halman

He got stabbed in Rotterdam.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 21, 2011 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Why do you hate Stan Musial?

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Nov 21, 2011 10:08 AM EST up reply actions  

A gay nazi

There’s another check off the list of things I need to see in my life

RE-SIGN EVERYONE

by Notorious PSC on Nov 21, 2011 10:34 AM EST up reply actions  

fabulously evil

Well, baseball was fun.

by Aranathor on Nov 21, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

is it springtime?

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 10:45 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

actually i don't know all the lyrics

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Technically the lyrics are POLAND and France

2012 MLB All Star Game FanFest: July 6-10 at the Kansas City Convention Center! Ask me for more info!

by mtzxc on Nov 21, 2011 5:08 PM EST up reply actions  

oops, that's right

been too long since I’ve heard it.

by ArkansasTravs on Nov 21, 2011 11:36 PM EST up reply actions  

No.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 21, 2011 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I remember reading a quote about how the Nazi's will always continue

to pop up in movies and TV shows because the style of their uniforms make them a chilling bad guy, as opposed to “the ridiculous pajamas that we see armies adopting in modern times”

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Either the Nazis or snakes

why does it always have to be snakes?

by dmiles on Nov 21, 2011 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

sad

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 9:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Wow

I remember when I worked for the Mariners… we had a company wide meeting and Hide Sueyoshi did a rundown of the big prospects coming up. Made it a point to talk about Halman and his physical tools and all of that

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 10:54 AM EST up reply actions  

/humblebrag

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 21, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

in retrospect

this comment should probably have been divided into two separate ones…

hooray!
that’s sad…

by BVHeck on Nov 21, 2011 11:07 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Hamilton

Just FYI, but you have Kozma’s numbers in Hamilton’s table.

But thanks for posting this. It’s nice to look at all these guys and get a feel for who can make any sort of impact.

by paposse on Nov 21, 2011 8:02 AM EST reply actions  

Thanks.

I put the wrong table in there. I got it corrected.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 9:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Morning all

Had a horrible dream that Pujols’ elbow exploded, let’s hope that doesn’t happen.

by CarpIsMyManCrush on Nov 21, 2011 8:17 AM EST reply actions  

Not for Pujols...

Makin' toast!

DING

Butterin' toast!

by dronemc on Nov 21, 2011 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Star Wars Carrie Fisher

also, she was angry at me, for some reason.

Well, baseball was fun.

by Aranathor on Nov 21, 2011 9:33 AM EST up reply actions  

She was probably angry because you were leaving the Hoth base

After all, you are a great help to the Rebels. You’re a natural leader.

by mattybobo on Nov 21, 2011 9:35 AM EST up reply actions  

that tramp!

That’s what she told me!

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Nov 21, 2011 9:36 AM EST up reply actions  

nerf herder!

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Nov 21, 2011 9:40 AM EST up reply actions  

I hope you kiss a Wookie!

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Nov 21, 2011 9:45 AM EST up reply actions  

hopefully this image won't break

Darth Carp

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 10:01 AM EST up reply actions   3 recs

my ambition is as boundless

as it is unable to come up with an adequte metaphor

Well, baseball was fun.

by Aranathor on Nov 21, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

ah, so Blues Brothers Carrie Fisher.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Nov 21, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

She stayed celibate for you!

"Nothing Motte does is quiet. It's mostly screamy and intense." - sheckiezx
"I'm a graduate of the Mike Shannon School of Diction" - Al Hrabosky

by monkeysareblue on Nov 21, 2011 8:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I know.

/waitwrongmovie

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 21, 2011 8:45 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

wait this is actually an awesome idea

why not try it out for just one year? have a draft to start the 2012 season. teams would be much more even i would image.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Nov 21, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

*imagine. ugh.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Nov 21, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Until you start factoring in contracts.

At that point, things become uneven again.

If you’ve ever played in a fantasy auction league where you can spend whatever you want on players, you would know this. That’s why most leagues limit the amount you can spend.

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 21, 2011 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

If you've ever played an auction league, you never play fantasy any other way

It’s better in every conceivable way except that it takes like an extra hour.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Nov 21, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

We do auctions for free agents and also have a 2 round draft for minor league players every offseason.

25 man big league roster, 15 man minor league roster. 5X5 rotisserie scoring.

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 21, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

More like 3 extra hours.

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment." -- Woody Allen

by Cardinals645 on Nov 21, 2011 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Or, like a month

if you’re in the VEB CBS league.

#HappySeason

by The Continental on Nov 21, 2011 8:20 PM EST up reply actions  

in my fantasy world, everyone would just play at the salary of the previous year - FA frozen for one year.

all of the teams put last year’s payroll money into a giant pool and the league takes from that pool to pay the players at their current team. come on, wouldn’t it be fun just for one year to try this out?

i mean, its a hell of a lot better than the all-star game determining home field advantage in the world series.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Nov 21, 2011 5:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Parity isn't quite as great as some people make out IMO

why should we necessarily strive for a parity? A universe in which the Cubs don’t lose every year is not one I want to be living in.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 21, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Looking at the numbers, I wonder if there should be an "age adjusted" column

for players of obscure providence. I have a hard time believing Cleto is only 22. And I still have a hard time believing Pujols is only 31.

Nyjer Morgan Fan Club President

by peppermartin on Nov 21, 2011 8:35 AM EST reply actions  

Wow.

Looks like pitching in Memphis aged Cleto by four years. I mean, the PCL is a tough pitching environment, but …

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Nov 21, 2011 8:59 AM EST up reply actions  

It's more emotionally scarring than anything else

Once he was in AAA, Cleto saw things… things that can wear down a man’s spirit. He saw Matt Carpenter and Tyler Greene toil away. He saw Mitchell Boggs banished from the majors, and he saw the terrible ghost of Blaine Boyer return.

by mattybobo on Nov 21, 2011 9:03 AM EST up reply actions   5 recs

Now why did you have to go and fix that?

It was funny just as it was. :-)

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Nov 21, 2011 9:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Don't forget the second coming of Jess Todd. . .

An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.

HL Mencken

by akaitori on Nov 21, 2011 9:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Eric Young JR posted a .363/.454/.552 line in the PCL Josh Fields had a .365/.429/.674

line there don’t read too much into Cleto’s line.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

There was originally a typo in his PCL line where his age jumped from 22 to 26.

That’s what mattybobo means.

References to typos always get confusing after edits.

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment." -- Woody Allen

by Cardinals645 on Nov 21, 2011 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

After the problems with players misrepresenting their ages over the past decade,

I’m much less worried about the ages of more recent signees like Cleto.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 11:04 AM EST up reply actions  

In actual fact

I think I’d be less concerned about Cleto’s age than I would for other players, simply because of his skillset. The only question about the guy is whether he’s going to have enough command to get outs at the highest level without walking too many, and I think that’s a question whether he’s 22 or 25 (although I admit it’s probably more likely he’ll figure it out if he’s younger).

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 21, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Related to your admission

Ottavino, at 25, feels like he is beyond ever figuring it out.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 5:19 PM EST up reply actions  

bgh

it appears that Hamilton and Kozma have identical numbers. Which is either pretty incredible or an editorial error.

Well, baseball was fun.

by Aranathor on Nov 21, 2011 8:38 AM EST reply actions  

It's an editorial error.

I put the wrong chart in for Mark Hamilton but I just corrected it.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 9:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Don't read too much into Patterson being included in that trade.

That was an “exchange of bad roster spots” thing. To get Toronto to take on Miller and Walters, which one must definitely consider “addition by subtraction” from the Cardinals’ point of view, the team had to take on a bad deal of their own, for both roster and payroll relief for Toronto. He won’t be back, and his presence this year didn’t mean much.

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Nov 21, 2011 9:04 AM EST reply actions  

Toronto was much less patient with Miller and Tallet than the Cardinals were with Patterson.

If the Cardinals believed that Chambers offered them something more than Patterson, I think they’d have cut bait on Patterson sooner.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 9:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes.

If the Cardinals felt that Chambers were an upgrade on Patterson, they’d have brought up Chambers sooner, in my opinion. Tortonto clearly did not think highly of Miller or Tallet and cut bait on them quickly. If a club does not believe a player should be on their roster, they typically cut them, especially if they believe a better option is available on their AAA club.

I also think that, if the Cardinals accepted Patterson solely so that the contracts and roster spots matched up, they’d have likely been even quicker in dropping him. I think the Cardinals traded a center fielder for pitching help and wanted a center fielder in return because they didn’t feel they had a viable internal option.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 9:53 AM EST up reply actions  

I think you're spot on about the center fielder option

and they were willing to go with Chambers in the playoffs because they felt they could get by with Jay/Skip if needed in the field and Chambers to do the situational stuff like pinch-run and all that better than Patterson

by dmiles on Nov 21, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I just don't agree.

I don’t think the Cards “wanted” a CF in return – Patterson was likely included at the Jays’ request (for money and roster reasons), not at the Cards’ behest.

The timing of the Jays’ cutting Miller and Tallet does not, IMO, provide any insight whatsoever on the Cards’ internal view of Chambers.

Moreover, the most important thing about the entire issue is that Chambers was on the playoff roster over Patterson, which is the true indication of the Cards’ relative views about the players.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 21, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Or they were slow in evaluating Patterson's worth

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Difficult to evaluate that which does not exist. . .

An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.

HL Mencken

by akaitori on Nov 21, 2011 9:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think our opinions are necessarily exclusive of one another.

I don’t doubt that the Blue Jays wanted the Cardinals to take on a contract in return for the Blue Jays taking Tallet and Miller off the Cardinals’ hands. The Cardinals agreed upon Patterson. Assuming that Rzepcynski, Dotel, and Jackson, were agreed to first (which I don’t think is a big assumption), Patterson was a player that addressed what would have been the only roster question that would exist after the trade of Rasmus: bench outfielder.

Miller and Tallet pitched poorly in 2011 for St. Louis and then for Toronto. Toronto was quick to cut them as a result because Toronto felt they had better, internal options for their bullpen. Corey Patterson is bad at baseball. He was even worse than normal while playing for the Cardinals. Yet the Cardinals kept him on the roster for a month. I think it’s fair to say that the Cardinals had a higher opinion of Patterson relative to Chambers than the Blue Jays had of Miller/Tallet relative to other relief options within their system.

I agree that, over the course of the seasno’s final months, Chambers’ stock relative to Patterson’s rose. Thank goodness it did. Perhaps they view him as a viable bench outfielder for 2012 relative to other potential options via trade or free agency. That Mozeliak has yet to project him as a bench outfielder in interviews (as compared to Greene, Anderson, and Cruz, for example) is also indicative of the organization’s view, IMO.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with Willie

Reading a month’s delay into bringing up Chambers as indicative of the organization’s view of him ignores two things:

1. LaRussa had influence over who was on his roster and clearly favored veterans—even poor ones—over untested rookies with whom he wasn’t familiar.
2. Chambers struggled most of the season in Memphis, his first full season in Triple A.

Characterizing the organization’s view of Chambers as a prospect based on a single month in a player’s career is a huge leap of reasoning, in my opinion.

by Forsch31 on Nov 21, 2011 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

But, his AAA numbers are reason for them to not believe him to be a viable bench outfielder.

I’m not blaming them for this view.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

No...

His performance in AAA means that they thought he was better served playing full games, every day, than giving him the spot duty they were giving Patterson. With Chambers, there’s a player development factor that didn’t come into play with Patterson. The fact that they called Chambers up at the end of the season, then kept him on the playoff roster and used him as a bench outfielder in 10 games in the Philly and Milwaukee series would seem to indicate they still think that Chambers has a future on the roster.

by Forsch31 on Nov 21, 2011 7:52 PM EST up reply actions  

because tlr, what else?

tlr likes knowing what a player can do, even if its not too good

this is one of the curses of tlr
never know about rooks, so we take patterson

 tlr only wants experienced players
but doesn’t like them getting it on his team
viscous circle

TLR is gone, long live the king

by sportsman on Nov 21, 2011 10:41 PM EST up reply actions  

you might be overestimating the amount of playing time Patterson actually received

Patterson played a full 9 inning game exactly 4 times with the Cardinals: 7/28, 8/3, 8/6, 8/10. After 8/10, he went a full three weeks before getting more than one PA in a game (8/31). He received only 9 PAs the rest of August, and only 12 PAs in all of September; he was given just 2 in the final three series when everything was on the line.

Put another way, Patterson received 56 PA total as a Cardinal. 33 were between 7/28 and 8/10; from 8/11 to the end of the season (7ish weeks), he received only 23 PAs.

IMHO Rasmus was traded for Dotel/Scrabble/Jackson, and the Blue Jays were nice enough to let us get rid of three terrible relievers, and all we had to do was put up with Corey Patterson briefly. I think it’s clear that even TLR, who supposedly favors veterans so strongly, was obviously irritated by Patterson’s awfulness at the plate and had more or less benched him by mid-August. He was used extremely sparingly after the first ~2 weeks.

Just a guess on my part, but I figure Anthopolous must have made getting rid of Patterson a condition of agreeing to the rest of the deal. I don’t think Mo actually wanted him.

What? I can't hear you over ALL THE CHAMPAGNE BEING POURED IN MY EARS.

by nota bene on Nov 21, 2011 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Also should be noted...

…that Trever Miller’s last game in a Toronto uniform came on August 15, five days after Patterson was being used even remotely regularly.

by Forsch31 on Nov 21, 2011 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

After 6 appearances and 3.1 IP.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 7:59 PM EST up reply actions  

i don't doubt the jays wanted to get rid of Patterson.

but the cardinals played him. i don’t see Mo taking another teams castoff and going “ah, screw it”, and leaving him on the 25 man for simplicity’s sake. we saw Patterson and thought “that’s a useful big league player”. and then he wOBA’d .179. i think it’s fair to assume we sought patterson as a replacement for jay taking colby’s spot.

by BVHeck on Nov 21, 2011 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

aI think that whatever they thought in that regard

was settled when they put Chambers on the playoff team and Patterson got a real good view from the dugout. Best seats in the house!

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Nov 21, 2011 9:39 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm sure he added a lot to the man-stew.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Nov 21, 2011 9:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Why?

Chambers wasn’t coming up before the expanded roster on September 1, no matter what. Precisely because of that expanded roster, there was no reason to cut bait on Patterson. He didn’t get much playing time from September 1 on, anyway.

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Nov 21, 2011 9:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Why

is it that “Chambers wasn’t coming up before the expanded roster on September 1, no matter what?” Because they don’t believe in Chambers enough to cut bait on Patterson before September 1.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 9:55 AM EST up reply actions  

What you should be asking yourself is why this is the case:
Chambers wasn’t coming up before the expanded roster on September 1, no matter what.

To bring him up on September 1, he has to be added to the 40 man roster anyway. So if the club was going to bring him up on September 1 anyway, why not on August 3rd or July 31st? It seems clear to me that the the organization was hoping to get “Good Corey Patterson” and when that didn’t happen, they cut bait with him and went with Adron because he was the other option available.

That’s definitely not inspiring a lot of confidence in Adron Chambers.

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 21, 2011 9:55 AM EST up reply actions  

but they love his clutchiness!

business aside, I am at least assured that Adron Chambers has a ton of confidence.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 10:02 AM EST up reply actions  

He's a very good player to have as a 4th OF, imo

He can play all the OF positions, is left handed, and has great speed. But I don’t expect him to hit enough to be much more than that.

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 21, 2011 10:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Agree. Cost controlled fourth outfielders

are a good thing. Especially ones that can play all three outfield positions and go about his business with a positive attitude regardless of the playing time he receives.

by jjray on Nov 21, 2011 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Patterson had 12 PAs in september

12.

Chambers was left in Memphis so he can play every day.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Nov 21, 2011 9:56 AM EST up reply actions  

eh...

not convincing. Helping the ML club win > a non-prospect’s development.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Nov 21, 2011 9:58 AM EST up reply actions  

And he had 38 in August.

38.

While Chambers, who was on the 40-man, was left in Memphis.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 10:00 AM EST up reply actions  

and how many PAs did Chambers receive while in Memphis

while Patterson received 38 PAs? (Patterson would have also seen less PAs than that if Jay didn’t take a nose dive right after the trade few a few weeks)

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Nov 21, 2011 10:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Chambers accumulated over 500 PAs for Memphis in 2011.

The “playing everyday” argument is not very convincing when the player’s upside is as a bench outfielder who can player center fielder and your big-league club needed a bench outfielder who can play center field, traded for an aging one, and then let that aging one toil for a month.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 10:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Why does that matter?

Are we grooming Adron Chambers to be a starting OF in the major leagues? Because if we aren’t, then why are we concerned about getting him AB’s in Memphis? He had 400+ PA’s there through August 1st, so I think we had a good idea of what he could do at that level.

This entire thread is based on subjectivity regarding the club’s intentions, but I can’t honestly understand the argument that the club was reserving Chambers for September, which is what you and StantheManFan seem to be saying.

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 21, 2011 10:06 AM EST up reply actions  

I think it's more likely that the club didn't see the difference between Chambers and Patterson mattering much

because of how little either one would probably play. They are both fast defense-oriented back up outfielders. Ideally they would pinch-run here and there. The offense-oriented back-up was Craig. Even though TLR, neither Patterson nor Chambers was going to impact the team’s success much one way or another. Or at least, on paper.

by mattybobo on Nov 21, 2011 10:11 AM EST up reply actions  

pretty much this

I especially don’t think it means the Club didn’t view Chambers as incompatible of playing in the Majors.

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Nov 21, 2011 10:15 AM EST up reply actions  

But they certainly didn't feel like he was an upgrade over Corey Patterson

Which is what bgh was originally saying. Mo and company would rather roll the dice with former top prospect but shitty major league player Corey Patterson than with non-top-prospect but young and excitable Adron Chambers.

Hell, we should have brought him up for his attitude alone — it’s not like our club couldn’t have used a boost of enthusiasm in August.

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 21, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Who is they?

The Cardinals organization as a whole, or the coaching staff?

by Forsch31 on Nov 21, 2011 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Another way to think of it is that it was a money issue:

If they cut Patterson, they have to pay him anyway, so why not pay him and not pay Adron a major league salary for that month? If he finds whatever he found in Baltimore half a decade ago he might be a productive player.

Regardless, that doesn’t say much for how the club feels about Adron Chambers. He’s a 4th outfielder, if he’s that.

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 21, 2011 10:16 AM EST up reply actions  

But Chambers was activated for Game 7 of the World Series

while Patterson was not.

(I have no doubt the Cardinals would have lost Game 7 if Patterson was activated. The GOBs would not allow it.)

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Nov 21, 2011 10:17 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree.

And I think the club and La Russa made the right call. I wish they’d have made it in August in terms of the 25-man roster. But I have an irrational dislike for Patterson that dates back to his I-Cubs days.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 10:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Writers haven't had a reason to bring it up for the last couple years

But with his free agency it’s natural to expect to hear about it all over again.

by mattybobo on Nov 21, 2011 9:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Let's say he is 34

That makes his return from the wrist injury all the more impressive.

by CarpIsMyManCrush on Nov 21, 2011 9:36 AM EST up reply actions  

I have to admit, the argument that he is a few years older (3 is a good guess for the sake of argument) is somewhat compelling

It would put 2003 as his age-26 year, instead of 23. That was his best year so far. But then he had a string of 8-WAR-ish years, with 2008 and 2009 at around 9 WAR each, which would be age-31 and -32 in the new scenario. Not sure how to explain the “double peak” thing if he’s actually older than he says he is.

by mattybobo on Nov 21, 2011 9:52 AM EST up reply actions  

You can't explain it

as we don’t yet know how the Terminators work, we just know that German Shepherds bark when they’re near, which is probably why we’ve never seen Albert at an ARF fundraiser.

by CarpIsMyManCrush on Nov 21, 2011 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

The official report is that he's at least a T-850 Model 101

He might be an 800 or even a 600. Or maybe an 888, who knows.

by mattybobo on Nov 21, 2011 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

No, he's much older than that

he’s a TRS-80.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 21, 2011 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

the good old TRaSh-80?

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 22, 2011 9:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Jumped right off the page at me.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Nov 22, 2011 9:43 AM EST up reply actions  

I got it.

I used to have one. I was about 6 years old, typing in my own BASIC programs and saving them to cassette.

Ah, those were the days.

DO YOU THINK IT'S NOT GOING TO BE WHAT IT IS?!!

by Vindicator9000 on Nov 22, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions  

There's something just a little fishy about that last one...

Anyway, I see no reason to assume he’s older than he is, other than a couple arguments like the one I posted above. A one-data-point argument is pretty tendentious in my opinion but I could see where people would find it persuasive.

Albert Pujols would not be the first professional athlete of all time who was a man-child at an early age. It’s always possible until there is some sort of conclusive proof, but some writers talk about it as if it’s as clear as day, and that’s foolish.

by mattybobo on Nov 21, 2011 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

you have to admit though,

that’s a pretty sweet stash. by cracky.

Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.

- John Wayne

by Tackle Box on Nov 21, 2011 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Reminds me of this:

Pedro: Do you think people will vote for me?
Napoleon Dynamite: Heck yes! I’d vote for you.
Pedro: Like what are my skills?
Napoleon Dynamite: Well, you have a sweet bike. And you’re really good at hooking up with chicks. Plus you’re like the only guy at school who has a mustache.

by OCCardsFan on Nov 21, 2011 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

My problem with the age suspicion

is, aren’t the people pushing this idea assuming that he progressed through college/minor leagues with such dominance because he was older than the competition? Are those people arguing that he’s NOT a freakishly good baseball player? In his MLB career he’s been freakishly good as well. If he was really 23 or 24 in 2001, compare his numbers from that year to other 23 or 24 year olds. Freakishly good, no? If he was actually 30 in 2008, wasn’t that a freakishly great season from a 30-year old?

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 21, 2011 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, he has had an amazing baseball career no matter how old he "really" is

And I think at least part of the argument that he must be older was based on how good he was at such a young age.

Meanwhile, Alex Rodriguez hit .358 with 36 homers, league-leading 54 doubles, and was worth 9.8 fWAR as a 20-year-old. Sometimes people are just really effing good at baseball.

by mattybobo on Nov 21, 2011 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, that's a good point.

and, if he was older than his competition, well he lost that advantage the second he stepped onto a major league field.

Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.

- John Wayne

by Tackle Box on Nov 21, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

plus

he’s always run like an old man

by _pistol_ on Nov 21, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that last one might be photoshopped

I can tell from some of the pixels, and because I’ve seen quite a few ’shops in my day

by dmiles on Nov 21, 2011 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

For great justice!

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 21, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

The comments about Cox are a little off base, IMO.

Expectations for him are out of whack. In what amounted to his first year of pro ball, and already in double AA, it took him only a month or so to adjust and then he started to rake.

It’s been a cliche to say that he didn’t take to the Texas league as fast as one would have hoped, but what should have been expected? That no adjustment period at all is needed for AA? Not even 150 PAS? I guess unless he’s robin Ventura or Pete incaviglia, he doesn’t adjust fast enough for some.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 21, 2011 9:33 AM EST reply actions  

I guess my expectations for left-handed hitting college players were established by Brett Wallace.

Maybe it is unfair to expect Cox to put up those type of numbers at the age of 22 like Wallace did.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 9:57 AM EST up reply actions  

+1 expectations driven by

major league contract given by Moz to said Cox. The organization burned an option in 2011 even though he played no higher than AA. Another option will be burned in 2012. It might not be fair to Cox but the clock is ticking.

by jjray on Nov 21, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I actually think that Cox has more potential with the bat than Wallace.

Having seen some video on him in the minors, he looks like a guy who just sprays line drives everywhere and has some pull power.

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 21, 2011 10:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

I think he’s going to hit and hit well. But there’s never really been a question in my mind as to his offensive capability, it’s more where he’s going to play: 2B or 3B.

At 2B, his bat has the potential to be elite. 15-20 HR power and 40+ doubles every year? Yes, please. But can he play there defensively? That’s the big question, and one that the organization all but answered when they took Kolton Wong in the 1st round of the draft last year.

At 3B, he’s probably average defensively (due to a throwing arm that isn’t all that great by most reports) and his bat is above average for a Cardinal 3B prospect and about average for any other 3B prospect.

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 21, 2011 10:00 AM EST up reply actions  

I hope you're right.

I just think that, if you sign a 22 year old to a major-league contract, you’d like him to hit a bit better in Springfield, especially when he is a left-handed hitter.

I also don’t think the club would draft Kolten Wong, a college second baseman who will likely only ever play second base, if they thought Cox could stick at second.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 10:07 AM EST up reply actions  

I'd like to look at his splits in Springfield though

He was pretty awful for his first 100 or so PA’s, and then really took off after that. I mean, 29 XBH and a .293 BA in ~400 PA’s is nothing to sneeze at, especially if you punt the first 100 or so PA’s as a level adjustment.

I’m not a huge proponent of optimistic forecasting with prospects (see my thoughts on Matt Adams as proof), but Cox has been so maligned within the Cardinal community I feel I have to defend him a bit.

I do agree that I don’t think he can hack it at 2B. Which means that he’s either the LHH version of Casey Blake or he doesn’t make it.

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 21, 2011 10:13 AM EST up reply actions  

I think we agree on Adams.

I very well could be underplaying the adjustment period for Cox. I believe he also got off to a slow start at A+, didn’t he? I guess I have come to expect left-handed hitters to mash at Springfield which makes my expectations overly high on Zack Cox.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 10:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Started slow at both places, yes.

I have no idea where to find minor league splits information since Kyle Boddy’s site isn’t updated with 2011 stats yet, but I’d be surprised if Cox didn’t have an OPS above .850 his last two months in Springfield.

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 21, 2011 10:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Post-all star break splits at Springfield for Cox:

.335/.388/.500 (.888 OPS) and 18BB/38K in 236 ABs (about 2/3 of his time in AA).

by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 21, 2011 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

oooh, that's nice

Mozeliak and especially Lunhow deserve a ton of credit for how they’ve turned this farm system around.

my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red

by mattyp on Nov 21, 2011 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Where did you get the splits at?

I’ve been looking for a decent site that has these.

Or did you have to calculate them on your own?

Either way, pretty nice splits for Cox in the second half. It will be interesting to see how well we does starting the year at AA next year.

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 21, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Milb.com has them for pre/post-all star

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment." -- Woody Allen

by Cardinals645 on Nov 21, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Like and expect are two different things, of course

If anything, having a guy adjust to a new level in a month’s time is a positive indicator, IMHO. It is the rare player that doesn’t have to adjust ot a new level either right when he gets there or his second time around the league.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Nov 21, 2011 10:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Even at 3B

15-20 HR and 40+ doubles is pretty nice.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Nov 21, 2011 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

It’s what we thought we’d get, and possibly might still receive, from David Freese.

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 21, 2011 10:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Perhaps it was his slow release that was troubling the scouts I read.

I dunno — I do remember a couple different reports stating that he had some “throwing problems”; I guess I just assumed that was dealing with arm strength.

Range was an issue moving to second base, but I’m not sure that it will be at third base. According to a people who saw him play this year, his hands looked pretty good and his reactions to balls to either side seemed ok

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 21, 2011 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Second base and third base are about equal in terms of difficulty and defensive positional adjustment.

I’m just not sure I can go along with the argument in this day and age that a defensively-average third baseman is worth less than a defensively-adequate 2B.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 21, 2011 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

why do your pictures always show up huuuge on mobile?

it takes up 4 screens worth of scrolling

by hr on Nov 21, 2011 12:16 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

no clue

I re-size them and they look fine on my phone, so I don’t know what the problem is.

by CarpIsMyManCrush on Nov 21, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm a little

confused about your assessment that Shane Robinson was not
defensively adaquate to play center on a regular basis. Several
years back, I definitely remember Mo stating on a KMOX interview
that some scouts and minor league coaches had stated that Robinson
was the best all around CF in the Card’s orgination.

I thought defense was his strong point and that was why the Cards
had kept him around. I know he has been hurt a lot and maybe his
defense has been hampered some by it but why else would the club
keep him on the 40 man roster. He is small and mostly a slap hitter,
though he occasionally can jack one.

by ridgesee on Nov 21, 2011 10:16 AM EST reply actions  

Sugar Shane got hurt in the intervening time.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions  

That's just my subjective opinion based on having seen him play for Memphis.

I’d say he’s certainly better than Craig or Schumaker in center field.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for the info on these guys and

Happy Birthday Stan. I’m reading the new biography now. What a man!

by easy on Nov 21, 2011 10:48 AM EST reply actions  

OT but funny

I was looking through the Android market for books that I might want to purchase and I came across “Three Nights in August.” Now, I’ve already read the book, but I wanted to share the opening to a review of the book that I found:

I like sports but have never been a follower of baseball. It has seemed boring to me. In my one year as a 9 year old little leaguer I would sit down in the outfield because nothing was happening

by CarpIsMyManCrush on Nov 21, 2011 10:57 AM EST reply actions  

How many years

can you play as a 9 year old little leaguer?

by egc80 on Nov 21, 2011 11:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Happy birthday to the greatest Cardinal ever

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Nov 21, 2011 11:21 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

It's Esteban Yan's birthday?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 11:28 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Look what you've done.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Nov 21, 2011 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

No, it's Jim Hart's

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 21, 2011 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Stan "The Man" Musial?

my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red

by mattyp on Nov 21, 2011 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

It's Aaron Miles' birthday?

DO YOU THINK IT'S NOT GOING TO BE WHAT IT IS?!!

by Vindicator9000 on Nov 21, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

It's Brian Cardinal's birthday?

I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson

by Solanus on Nov 21, 2011 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

It's Bo Hart's birthday?

2012 MLB All Star Game FanFest: July 6-10 at the Kansas City Convention Center! Ask me for more info!

by mtzxc on Nov 21, 2011 5:18 PM EST up reply actions  

It's Tim Tebow's birthday?

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment." -- Woody Allen

by Cardinals645 on Nov 21, 2011 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

it's tiger woods' birthday?

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 21, 2011 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

swan, not cardinal.

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 21, 2011 8:58 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

No, no, guys

It’s Kelvin Jimenez’s birthday.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 21, 2011 9:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Buddy Griffey

Stan The Man was a teammate of Junior’s grandpa.

I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson

by Solanus on Nov 21, 2011 11:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Clint Barmes is getting 2 years $10.5 million?

His value is almost completely dependent on his defense and he’s 32 years old. Is this SS market pricing Furcal out of our range?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 12:43 PM EST reply actions  

If Pujols is resigned by STL

then we were out of the Furcal range irrespective of Clint Barmes.

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 21, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't necessarily agree with that. What's the crowdsource opinion of Furcal's contract?

1 year $9 mil or 2 years $15 mil?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

The only way I'd give Furcal a second year

is through an option that vests with a certain number of PA. Furcal’s agent is crazy if he thinks he’ll get a two year deal with a club option for a 3rd year, with the recent injury history.

by CarpIsMyManCrush on Nov 21, 2011 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Clint Barmes, Jamey Carroll, and Mark Ellis all got 2 year deals

There’s no way Furcal doesn’t

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I bet his agent just added supplementals to their binder on Furcal.

Supplement I: Jamey Carroll
Supplement II: Mark Ellis
Supplement III: Clint Barmes

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't forget

Aaron Hill got 2yrs/11Mil from the Dbacks

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 21, 2011 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

We're gonna need a bigger binder.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 21, 2011 2:15 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Prepare the tabs now

for Kelly Johnson and Alex Gonzalez

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 21, 2011 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

and Carroll is 37 and he and Ellis both have Options with buyouts in the 3rd year

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Well. . .

Carroll has been healthy, FWIW. But yeah, those other comps are good ones for Furcal’s agent. Of course, I’m not convinced that makes that much of a difference for valuing Furcal’s contract. . . a reasonable alternative interpretation is that all the dumb GMs looking for a SS are now out of the market.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Nov 21, 2011 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

the key is

none of those teams signed furk
asking too much
worried about health
or both?

TLR is gone, long live the king

by sportsman on Nov 21, 2011 10:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe but Barmes is also going to a team that must overpay to attract FA

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Regardless, that affects the market

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Tyler Greene needs to write a very nice thank you note to the Pirates' GM

since they’ve done everything they can to make him look like the best-value option the Cards have at shortstop.

by Robth on Nov 21, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd say so.

Unless Furcal is still a free agent if Pujols signs elsewhere.

I’d say the MIF free agent market is why we have seen Mozeliak and Matheny talk up Tyler Greene in the media. By the way, Greene posted a 123 wOBA+ in the PCL. Tulowitzki posted a 120 wOBA+ in 2010 and a 118 wOBA+ this season. Greene had such an awesome season in AAA. I’m not saying that Greene will hit like Tulowitzki in MLB next season but I am saying that he has a high ceiling. I just hope his swing-and-miss rate doesn’t torpedo him.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Tyler Greene's best comp (because comps are fun, if not super useful)

is Ian Desmond. They’re very similar players tools-wise, IMO. But I think Tyler plays better defense and takes more walks. I’d put Tyler at a 2 WAR level for next year, with upside from there.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 21, 2011 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

That's an interesting comp.

A 2.0-WAR shortstop that is cheap would be nice, wouldn’t it?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that's a really good assessment.

You’ve brought that up before, have you not?

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 21, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

That would be great. . .

but from a developmental perspective, Greene’s minor league resume isn’t nearly as impressive as Desmond’s. They are hard to compare, because Greene was drafted as a college player and Desmond as a high school player, but Desmond excelled at higher levels at a much younger age than Greene, and still didn’t K as much:

Desmond AA: K’d in 22% of PAs as a 20-23yo.
Desmond AAA: K’d in 15% of PAs as a 23yo.
Desmond MLB: K’d in 20.1% of PAs as a 23-25yo.

Greene AA: K’d in 24.6% of PAs as a 23/24yo.
Greene AAA: K’d in 23.7% of PAs as a 24-27yo.

Desmond has K’d less in the majors at a younger age than Greene has in the high minors at an older age.

I don’t care about Ks in the majors, but I think high K totals in the minors are counterindicative of success as a hitter at the major league level unless you are Ryan Howard.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Nov 21, 2011 5:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, TG's K rate has always been concerning.

He’s going to K at a high percentage and I accept that and agree that’s the biggest red flag in his profile. But, IMO, his other abilities, like arm/range, ability to take a walk, and elite base stealing still make him an attractive player.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 21, 2011 10:35 PM EST up reply actions  

good grief tyler greene is awesome

the crash davis’s of this world boggle my mind.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Nov 21, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Oddly enough the team that makes the most sense for Furcal (ATL) won't even talk to him

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

yikes

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Nov 21, 2011 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, Omar Infante.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 21, 2011 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

are you referring to the All Star

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

The

Versatile All-Star

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 21, 2011 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Not to mention trading Elvis Andrus

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I imagine they might want to as well

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 22, 2011 9:23 AM EST up reply actions  

The development of the MIF free agent market has been really interesting.

All of our in-season predictions for Furcal are way off-base now. I agree with you on both points.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

sigh

well, it was nice having a real SS, for awhile at least.

my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red

by mattyp on Nov 21, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Greene is a real SS

I’m almost positive he has more range than Fookie, and an above average arm

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, I'm pretty sure Greene is a 4-tool player

Just the one tool he’s missing happens to be the most important one…

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

a clamp?

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Nov 21, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

only a collection of clamps is important

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape

Irish provenance of the schwa pronunciation of vowels in weakly stressed syllables -> Missoura

by totalloser on Nov 21, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, basically

despite TLR’s best efforts to bring out his ubermenschisch qualities, he remains hopelessly devoted to his slave moralities.

by Robth on Nov 21, 2011 1:39 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

wait, hitting for average? that's the most important one?

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Nov 21, 2011 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, the ability to make contact

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

okay. that's a better way of putting it.

though not the traditional way of stating that fifth tool

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Nov 21, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I dunno, possibly

I guess count me in the group that has never been especially impressed by Greene Tea in either aspect of the game.

my favorite words are goodbye and my favorite color is red

by mattyp on Nov 21, 2011 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree wrt the big leagues, but his potential is so tempting

Irish provenance of the schwa pronunciation of vowels in weakly stressed syllables -> Missoura

by totalloser on Nov 21, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Wasn't his agent asking

2/$16?

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 21, 2011 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

man, Barmes is 32?

i think of him as super young for some reason

by tehzachatak on Nov 21, 2011 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

If we go in to 2012 with Greene and Descalso

starting in the middle infield because Albert was resigned, then I like Punto and Ramon Santiago as backups. Both are switch hitters. Both are accustomed to coming off the bench. Both should be reasonably priced. Both are can play second as well as short. Both bring veteranness to offset the youth of DD and Greene.

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 21, 2011 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow, I would have thought Barmes would be close to free

I’m telling you guys, just re-sign Punto and start Greene at short.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 21, 2011 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought Barmes would go about 1yr/$3-4m

and Furcal would probably go for 1 yr and about $6m. Really surprising MIF market this year.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 21, 2011 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

They haven't made many bad decisions since Huntington took over

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, they have been much better recently

Honestly my guess is that they were really, really sick of ronny cedeno being their starting shortstop, so they decided to overpay a guy who will support their army of groundball pitchers. But this deal and signing 36 year old Rod Barajas for 4 million next year both seem kind of silly to me.

by hr on Nov 21, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Eh.

The Barajas deal doesn’t bother me. They still have to put a product on the field, and a one year $4M deal for a catcher with Barajas’ offensive skills isn’t bad. Chances are they can flip him for a prospect at the trade deadline.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Nov 21, 2011 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

??

Rod Barajas is old. He played 99 games last year and 98 the year before. In these years he was average offensively and defensively. And you say this:

Chances are they can flip him for a prospect at the trade deadline.

this mentality is why the Pirates have gone nowhere in 20 years.

by hr on Nov 21, 2011 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

An average offensive and defensive catcher. . .

is worth about $4MM. Actually, according to fangraphs, Barajas has been worth $3.8M and $5.8M the last two years. He was traded in one of those years at the deadline (2010, actually, the year he was worth $3.8M).

The Pirates have no catchers in their system, and to paraphrase Bob Uecker, I think, if you don’t have a catcher, the ball goes all the way to the backstop (unless it hits the umpire).

Paying market for a 36 year old isn’t brilliant, but it’s not worth breaking out the torches and pitchforks.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Nov 21, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course it's not a huge deal, but it's signings like these that make the Pirates so aggravating.

Have they ever done anything interesting the past 5 offseasons? Yeah, okay, they were rebuilding the team back then, so obviously not. But last year, they had a decent chance. One can say luck was in their favor the first half of their season, but the team itself isn’t horrible. They have some potential, but of course, it’s wasted by the signings of “meh” players. Call me a far-fetched optimist, but if they had traded/signed an “impact player” I bet they could have had at least a run for the playoffs next year.

by hr on Nov 21, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

The Pirates

Sorry, but I’m not buying. The Pirates are still a 90 loss team, first half of 2011 notwithstanding.

Before free agent signings, they had 3 position players who would start, one of whom would star, on a contending team in Walker, Tabata and McCutcheon. Alex Presley, a late season call-up, has some potential.

Their starting rotation has four 3/4 starter types, and that’s being charitable. James MacDonald among those guys is the only one that has the potential to be more.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Nov 21, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

probably

it’s too bad, I like Furcal quite a bit.

I still feel kind of cheated that we didn’t get to see Furcal pitch in a 20 inning game….

What? I can't hear you over ALL THE CHAMPAGNE BEING POURED IN MY EARS.

by nota bene on Nov 21, 2011 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Heyman on Pujols

For those of you who have missed his tweets, this column combines them:

1. Albert Pujols. One of the greatest players of all-time entered the offseason with a contract offer from the Cardinals of about $200 million for nine years, and he’s trying to beat that now. The Marlins made him an offer, and some said it was for nine years, too, but indications are strong that it was for far less than the Cardinals’ original bid and Miami’s real target is believed to be Jose Reyes. Word seems to be St. Louis won’t go much higher, which could mean it dresses the offer up a bit to make it look better so he can stay and save face (eight years, $200 million?). Pujols and his agent, Dan Lozano, could wait for the best deal to materialize, but people who know Pujols say he’d prefer to remain in St. Louis if things are equal, or anywhere close. Projection: $220 million, nine years.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jon_heyman/11/21/free.agents/index.html#ixzz1eMh6QZOZ

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 1:20 PM EST reply actions  

Oh, how I wish I could believe or understand that!

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment." -- Woody Allen

by Cardinals645 on Nov 21, 2011 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

You forgot the best part of this article!
Bobby Valentine meets with Red Sox GM Ben Cherington and his righthand man Allard Baird in Boston today. Valentine looks like the sudden favorite for the manager’s job after club honchos declined to make an offer to Cherington’s original first choice, Dale Sveum. No other known candidates have been added yet, and that may depend on how this interview goes.

by hr on Nov 21, 2011 8:02 PM EST up reply actions  

i do not detest the Boston org like many do, having lived in Boston for a while.

nevertheless, i will crack the hell up if they (or any other team) hires valentine as a manager.

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 21, 2011 8:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Boston is also the one who release Smoltz and Penny

And replaced them with Paul Byrd. I don’t think they are as good as everyone else does.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 21, 2011 9:51 PM EST up reply actions  

The Smoltz thing was just about money

He was getting paid some ridiculous incentive per start

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Nov 21, 2011 10:48 PM EST up reply actions  

still, they could have used him

He was at least a full run better per 9 than Byrd.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 21, 2011 10:52 PM EST up reply actions  

if there is one person who benefits most from the

Matheny hire, it’s Bryan Anderson. As I recall, he was the biggest stumper for Anderson’s defense and had worked very closely with him. I would think of that relationship when hedging bets on the backup spot.

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 21, 2011 1:28 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Asked & Answered

With Matheny’s statements regarding Anderson, I wonder how much of it was because he was asked about Anderson’s defense for an article. Had he also been asked about Cruz’s defense I think it likely he’d have given an equally glowing review. That being said, Matheny obviously views Anderson more positively than La Russa did, which is a benefit to Anderson. Will that be enough for Anderson to edge out Cruz in Spring Training? Tune in next Spring—same Cardinal time, same Cardinal channel.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm a supporter of giving Anderson a chance, because he's an intriguing addition,

but wasn’t there a comment from Duncan, as well? I remember Duncan saying something about how important it is to call a game well, along with defense. I am sure that Mozeny will try, but its hard to imagine that Duncan doesn’t have a pretty heavy say in the matter.

by RasmustheRipper on Nov 21, 2011 5:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Two things...

I may be wrong, but I think Matheny also mentored Cruz—who’s a converted catcher—and was a supporter of him as well. The Anderson support got more ink because he used to be one of the system’s better prospects who seemed to stagnate.

Also, Duncan likes his catchers calling the game from behind the plate, which is what Molina, Matheny, and Pags did under Duncan. My understanding is that is Duncan’s biggest reservation about Anderson. With Matheny as the manager, that may not be as much as an issue, since Matheny could send him the pitches during games (thus, calling it himself) and having Anderson learn to become that kind of catcher on the job. For once, Anderson may have to make the roster based on his offense rather than his defense.

by Forsch31 on Nov 21, 2011 8:20 PM EST up reply actions  

hey, tom s., and other people

in yesterday’s thread you linked to an article that supposedly said loria explained the offer to pujols was lowball because loria doubts pujols is the age he says he is. the link was broken for me and i’d really like to read it. a cursory search of cbs sports (where i think the article was) didn’t show it. in short: can someone link to the article here?

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Nov 21, 2011 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

In reading the article, I didn't see that Loria doubted his age per se.

There was a reference to unnamed Marlins personnel and speculation that the offer was lower due to age concerns.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 21, 2011 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

oh, okay. interesting. well, i guess that makes it less interesting, actually.

do you have a working link?

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Nov 21, 2011 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

perhaps I am overly conspiratorial, but the art

Of deliberately putting buzz out through unofficial channels seems like a common tactic. I would imagine that most clubhouses are media-sensitive and that such “slips” are most often deliberate and calculated.

Moreover, it seemed to fit with the otherwise weird public courtship of Albert. It seemed that the whole point of the exercise was to get some buzz for the org and make people feel like the org was REALLY TRYING. Telling the people of Miami after the fact that, meh, nobody wants him anyway seemed like a logical follow-on to a phoney recruitment.

Or maybe I’m just seeing things.

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 21, 2011 2:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

What's really going on

is a conspiracy between the Marlins’ and Cardinals’ front offices. These two teams are inextricably linked, mostly because they share spring training facilities, and hence they are around each other much more so than other teams. The Cardinals made a deal with Miami that they would not go after J. Reyes if the Marlins FO would lowball APu, and fi unnamed sources within the FO would let it be known that the reason for the lowball was b/c of age concerns.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 21, 2011 2:33 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

fi=if

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 21, 2011 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

we shall call it The Roger Dean Conspiracy

starring Ben Affleck

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Here

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Nov 21, 2011 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

a takedown of the new blue jays' logo:

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Nov 21, 2011 1:45 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

the kerning ooohhhhh the kerning

also, I’m pretty sure I have that font.
actually, might’ve had it on the Macintosh

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder if this same breakdown is available for the man with the flag?

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Nov 21, 2011 2:01 PM EST up reply actions   3 recs

The critic's version is the one on the right...

I’ll give the guy the credit on the font issue.

(Click on graphic to link to the source article.)

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 21, 2011 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

nah

the middle one is better overall.

Well, baseball was fun.

by Aranathor on Nov 21, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

The middle blue jay looks exactly how blue jays do.

Menacing, and ready pluck your eyes out just because they can.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 21, 2011 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

But still, pick one font and stick to it.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 21, 2011 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah..

but the font on the critics one doesn’t work either.

Well, baseball was fun.

by Aranathor on Nov 21, 2011 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

i like the middle blue jay but the stuff around it is vomitous.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed

also, like the new avatar…
“two more two go”

by _pistol_ on Nov 21, 2011 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree on the font, baseball stitching, and the maple leaf stem.

Then look better on the versions flanking the current Toronto logo.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Eh. They're all bad.

You could pull elements from each and make it better, but the concept just doesn’t do anything for me.

#HappySeason

by The Continental on Nov 21, 2011 8:33 PM EST up reply actions  

the new logo is supposed to be focused and mean

the other one looks sort of fat, round and happy

by jealousblues on Nov 22, 2011 4:43 AM EST up reply actions  

#lazybluejay

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 22, 2011 8:41 AM EST up reply actions   5 recs

sometimes little nuggets like this get missed.

should be green

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Nov 22, 2011 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Is this a parody?

Because if I tried to imagine a parody of a ridiculously nitpicking and subjective critique of a baseball logo, it would look exactly like this.

by mattybobo on Nov 21, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

don't bring a knife to a font fight.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 3:06 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

i think once you enter into the halls of "critique of a baseball logo" you're pretty far down the rabbit hole.

whether it’s nitpicking or not seems immaterial.

i guess if you’re a professional graphic designer, then ok.

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 21, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Which he is

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, maybe not. I thought guy at Flip Flop Flyball did it, but I guess not

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

WHY YOU LYING BASTARD

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 21, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

you're wondering whether to take critiquing a baseball logo seriously?

bobo, step away from the internet. i can’t let you do this to yourself.

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 21, 2011 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Heh

Good point… in fact, maybe this is all just a hallucination?

by mattybobo on Nov 21, 2011 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Is this the real life

is this just fantasy?

Well, baseball was fun.

by Aranathor on Nov 21, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

this is kind of what they teach professional graphic designers.

there’s millions of dollars tied up in creating catchy logos competing in a crowded marketplace with multiple formats. which is why it begs the question, who made the logos. this is a legitimate critique of a front office — they have to be able to employ professionals who know what they’re doing.

they did not know what they’re doing. they’re just showing why.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I would disagree that the critic knows what he's doing

I’ve worked with graphic designers on book covers and logo designs for about a decade, and most of the criticisms leveled against the Jay’s new logo are not legit—they’re simply the designer’s unsupported preference rather following good rules of design. Some of it is amateurish, like not enough white space above the eye or that the ball stitching is “too sharp” or that the curve isn’t true. Whoever wrote this comes off like somebody who picked up a design book in a used bookstore than someone who has any professional training. Which is why his version looks like a robin with a hair flip.

The only legit gripe is the different fonts, which was probably done on the insistence of the client (who wanted the logo to reflect different eras). Two different fonts is a huge taboo in any design, and I doubt it was the designer’s idea.

by Forsch31 on Nov 21, 2011 8:38 PM EST up reply actions  

From my experience

it’s a requirement to being a professional graphic designer.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 21, 2011 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

i sent a message to my graphic designer brother

to have him critique the critique (and the logo). And yes, he is a nitpicker when it comes to that sort of thing.

> tebow

by cschepers on Nov 21, 2011 8:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Hamilton absolutely mashed while in AAA this season but failed to hit much during his 51 PAs in the majors. There are many players like Hamilton on AAA rosters across the Pacific Coast and International Leagues. His future in St. Louis is as tied to the Pujols negotiations as it is to Mike Adams’s batting average.

Given that Mike Adams is now throwing relief in the American League, I think the chances of him even posting a batting average in the near future is pretty much zero.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 21, 2011 2:00 PM EST reply actions  

So Verlander won the AL MVP

THIS IS WHY WE CAN’T HAVE NICE THINGS

by mojowo11 on Nov 21, 2011 2:04 PM EST reply actions  

for serious?

thats kinda awesome

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Nov 21, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder how Miguel Cabrera feels

.344/.448/.586 just doesn’t win you the MVP on the Tigers these days.

by mojowo11 on Nov 21, 2011 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Verlander just said he called.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

HFS

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Nov 21, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Verlander'd.

don’t worry. it’s not real baseball. he never had to hit.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually

He went 0-4 in 2011 with 3 Ks
Lifetime he is 0-20 with 13 Ks
To his credit he does have 5 sac bunts.
Interleague.

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 21, 2011 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

i was unconvinced, given that i have learned that pitchers only hit multi-run homers

but that bunting, wow. that young man deserves it.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

more sac bunts than the entire 2011 cardinals pitching staff

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Nov 21, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Nuh unh

Cards staff, 37 SH…I’m sure most of those are bunts.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 21, 2011 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

was jok

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Nov 21, 2011 5:43 PM EST up reply actions  

figgered

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 22, 2011 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Were you not mad enough today?

I can fix that. Here’s the ballot of the guy who voted for Michael Young #1 on his MVP ballot.

Michael Young was, what, the sixth- or seventh-best position player on that TEAM?

by mojowo11 on Nov 21, 2011 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

The BBWAA everyone!

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 21, 2011 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

lolwut

What? I can't hear you over ALL THE CHAMPAGNE BEING POURED IN MY EARS.

by nota bene on Nov 21, 2011 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

What the fuck?

The weirdest thing is that, numbers 2-10, that ballot is actually pretty much OK. But Michael Young??

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 21, 2011 5:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Goddamnit I hate the BBWAA

There were 5 hitters with more WAR than Verlander, including his teammate Miguel Cabrera and Kinsler, who was also on a playoff team.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 21, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm okay with a pitcher winning MVP with less WAR if he had 7 WAR and the next closest is like 5 WAR

But that isn’t the case

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

These days I'm not really OK with any pitcher winning the MVP

Because there is not “Cy Young” equivalent award for position players.

by mattybobo on Nov 21, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Silver sluggers are the hitting equivalent of Gold Glove

Nobody cares about the Hank Aaron award. People care about the Cy Young and the MVP, for better or for worse. If a pitcher is going to win the MVP he had better be really fucking good, but I’m usually against it on principle.

by mattybobo on Nov 22, 2011 8:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I'm fine with a pitcher winning it

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 21, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

fWAR in rWAR he ties atop the leader board

and as tRA and MVP are both outcome based I think it is more relevant

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

rWAR is not tRA based

It’s RA based. I’m not going to give Verlander full credit for a .236 BABIP.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 21, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

But you are fine giving Bautista credit for his .76 point jump in BABIP?

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Did he say that?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I am assuming that Bautista as the co-rwar leader

or Granderson(fair choice but an MVP with a .260 batting average is unlikely), Ellesbury(15.6 UZR driving a lot of his value) and Cabrera(again great hitter but not a considerably better season than Verlanders)

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

i dunno - i think people are making too much of the variability of ellsbury's defense.

he was worth 1.5 wins over replacement on defense. mostly, he’s really valuable because he hit extremely well while playing cf. assume average defense and he’s still worth 7.9 wins. and that’s not really a good assumption – he’s a +6 CF over his career in 3400 innings there.

i’d say, even ignoring the year-to-year fluctuations in UZR, he’s still the MVP.

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 21, 2011 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I am not hammering him I am just saying they all have their warts

Verlander had a historic counting stat season and while several hitters had great seasons none were historic in the sense that a 65 yo BBWAA is going to overlook a pitching triple crown and 25 wins

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

i don't really see what ellsbury's "wart" is. even if you control his UZR numbers by subbing in

his career average UZR.

nobody’s mystified about why the BBWAA voted for verlander, any more than we’re mystified why a Dallas columnist thinks michael young is the best player in the AL. shifting the discussion from whether verlander is in fact the most deserving player to why the BBWAA picked him is changing the debate.

i think we’re just saying it’s a suspect choice, and not because verlander’s a pitcher. i don’t really care that much about his counting stats.

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 21, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Ellesbury was probably hurt as much by Gonzalez and Pedrioa

as well as by Granderson and Kemp in the whole historic season by a CF, I would have accepted any of the names in the top 5-6 hitters by WAR as MVP. I can’t see how anyone can look at a 7-8 WAR player and a 8-9 WAR player and be bothered if one is picked over the other.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

i think that's a little broad on the error bars, there, buddy.

there’s nothing principled about calling a 7.0 win performance a 7-8 win performance, and calling a 9.4 win performance an 8-9 win performance.

there were 2.4 wins between ellsbury and verlander. even adjusting for UZR variability, there’s a win and a half difference. that’s not chicken feed.

is giving verlander the MVP outrageous? no. it is poorly justified, though.

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 21, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

right and by rWAR

Verlander had 8.5WAR and Ellesbury had 7.2 so I would argue that my error bars are just fine

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

o_o

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

damn ur l33t speak!

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm also concerned about verlander's 80% LOB rate, which does not look

at all like anything he’s put up before.

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 21, 2011 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

also

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=15532

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 22, 2011 9:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, I agree with Mike that hitters have more control over BABIP than pitchers

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2011 10:44 AM EST up reply actions  

okay you agree that hitters have more control

give me a number of exactly how much control either have.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 22, 2011 11:09 AM EST up reply actions  

At about 3000 PA, you'd regress BABIP 50% for pitchers

For hitters it’s around 1500 PA.

Verlander had what, 700 PA this year? Yeah, you’re regressing his BABIP 85% to league average.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2011 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok

A) Bautista had a .309 BABIP – which was ~ .020 points above league average. Verlander’s BABIP was ~.055 points below league average.

B) Hitters have much more control over BABIP than pitchers.

I also never argued that Bautista should be the MVP. Let me know when you are being serious.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 21, 2011 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

who isn't being serious? Using fWAR for an MVP vote requires relying on

a one year UZR sample. I will trust Verlander’s control over his BABIP more than I trust a stat like UZR on a one year sample size.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

o_o

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Batista was worth -4.8 runs on defense last year according to UZR

Unless you think he’s somehow worse than that in right field, than I’m not sure what the hell you are talking about.

20 bucks your next comment is going to say that wins are really the most important stat and that Batista had too many strikeouts.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 21, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Pay up sucka

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

What does MVP even mean?

When people like Young and Granderson get first place votes, obviously it is a meaningless award.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Nov 21, 2011 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Granderson posted a .394 wOBA with 41 HR as a center fielder.

I don’t think it’s surprising that he received first-place votes.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

+1

Granderson had a ridiculous year. 7.0 fWAR.

What? I can't hear you over ALL THE CHAMPAGNE BEING POURED IN MY EARS.

by nota bene on Nov 21, 2011 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

good point

I just think there are 3-4 people clearly better than him. If you want to go by fWAR, there are 6 guys better than him.

I smacked Rickey right in the face when he told me this idea.

by Hootie Who on Nov 21, 2011 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

also, HFS. alex gordon was worth 6.9 WAR last year.

for reference, he was worth -0.4 WAR last year in 281 PAs and 0.5 WAR in 2009 in 189 PAs.

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 21, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

[Insert BABIP argument here]

But yeah, I can still barely wrap my head around how good he was this year.

by mattybobo on Nov 21, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

all this pitching talk

I have this sudden hankering for Adam Wainwright’s curveball.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 2:14 PM EST reply actions  

Gotta Rec

the Beltran Curve

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 21, 2011 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

the straight back centerfield camera

i could cry

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

It was Fox, too.

Why the hell they went away from it, I’ll never know.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Nov 21, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

i still feel sad that the Carpenter v. Halladay game for the ages was shot in such mediocre fashion

ET TU GUYS IN THE TRUCK

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

god damn, i can't wait for next year

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 21, 2011 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

can't....stop....watching....

What? I can't hear you over ALL THE CHAMPAGNE BEING POURED IN MY EARS.

by nota bene on Nov 21, 2011 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

cj beatty seems to need cheering up.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 2:21 PM EST reply actions  

He lives in Flordia correct?

Do we have any VEBer’s down there who could take him out to lunch and talk about how much they enjoyed following him on twitter?

Grit != flat out sucking.

by Evilfrog on Nov 21, 2011 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

it's eastern seaboard, but i don't think it's florida

unless i missed something.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

hfs, taking CJ BEATTY out to lunch?

that’ll be a big lunch

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Just the entire left side of the McDonald's menu.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 21, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

he has sophisticated tasets

McDonald’s would just be the antipasto

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

my spelling fails are getting worse

i wonder if it’s actually my fingers and not my eyes…

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Stan the Man plays for a select crowd

you have to turn your head to the left.
http://yfrog.com/17tadz

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 2:24 PM EST reply actions  

By WAR he was the 8th best

You should not be voting a guy for MVP when there is a reasonable argument that he is the 8th best player on his team. That’s a rule.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Nov 21, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

But he is the 1st best at play-the-game-the-right-way-ness on his team.

I genuinely think if Young played for the Yankees he’d be as universally disliked as Jeter. Perhaps even more so.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 21, 2011 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

The love he got in the post season was baffling

I had no idea people thought he was that good. HE’S A TEAM PLAYER (who asked to be traded twice)

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Nov 21, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

additionally

you should not be voting for MVP at all if said logic escapes you

11 in '11!! To Infinity and Beyond!!! ...

by kalmavet on Nov 21, 2011 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

we have one of 'em every year

on a bad year, there’s more than one.

we should really have a wall of byline portraits

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

lmao, oh japan.
The main character, a high school freshman who finds himself dragged into the battle for half-priced bento. He enjoys playing retro video games, particularly Sega games. Though at first shown not able to even hold his ground in a bento brawl, he soon shows remarkable strength

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 21, 2011 2:55 PM EST reply actions  

Right, so.

Tomorrow i’ve got a 2000 word essay to write and 4 hours of university. And tonight i’m going out and getting drunk.

Tuesday is gonna be fuuuunn.

Well, baseball was fun.

by Aranathor on Nov 21, 2011 3:02 PM EST reply actions  

Thankswhating?

Also, is this a good time to ask, who the fuck is ‘Tebow’?

Well, baseball was fun.

by Aranathor on Nov 21, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

but in all seriousness, he's the quarterback for the denver broncos NFL team

Known for this:

A nationwide controversy surrounded Tebow’s decision to appear in an ad funded by the socially conservative organization Focus on the Family that was broadcast during Super Bowl XLIV on CBS.116117 There were two 30-second commercials, which included Tebow’s personal story as part of an overall pro-life stance. The abortion issue was not specifically mentioned in the ad.118 Pro-choice groups condemned the ad,119 while pro-life groups rallied around Tebow.120

and his penchant for incomplete passes.

by hr on Nov 21, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

We should not be quoting articles about someone's views on abortion on this website.

It is a very political subject that is often informed by one’s faith. The VEB community guidelines explicitly state that religion and politics are off limits here. I’d like to ask that we not get into Tebow, his religion, anyone else’s religion, Focus on the Family, or the subject of abortion.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Is farmerfetus.org still fair game?

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Nov 21, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

lololol

I ALWAYS hear that on those ads

by jealousblues on Nov 22, 2011 4:59 AM EST up reply actions  

oops, I didn't mean to instigate anything

I know this is a really touchy subject; I just wanted to explain to aranathor because I knew nobody else would. I didn’t plan to say anything else about it and I thought the quote was relatively impartial. Sorry abotu that.

by hr on Nov 21, 2011 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I honestly forgot all about that commercial nonsense.

Aran to fully explain your question (well, partially, I guess), Tim Tebow was a fantastic college Quarterback who led Florida to a national championship but his style of play doesn’t normally translate to the NFL level. The then head coach of the Denver Broncos didn’t care about that and drafted him anyway (said man is now helping to ruin the Rams) before last season.

This year, the Broncos made Tebow the starting QB halfway through the season and “he” has gone 4-1. In reality, the Broncos D has been playing out of it’s ass lately and Tebow has done just enough to squeak out wins. Thus, he’s a winner(!) and all the sports talking heads get weird boners and yell at each other about him.

Think of an 18 game wining SP with a 4.85 ERA.

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Nov 21, 2011 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

not quite fair

think a SP with a sub 3 ERA and a 4.5K/9. Tebow has thrown 1 INT in 5.75 games and has set a record for rushing yards by a QB over his first 5 games

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll settle for a 3.97 ERA and a 5.9 k/9

perhaps next year he can be turned into the Jim Edmonds of football players.

"He probably misses his old glasses."

by Alxfritz on Nov 21, 2011 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

It is little hard to gauge exactly who the guy is and how much

surrounding talent and scheme are affecting his numbers. Alex Smith looked pretty freaking flawed untill Harbaugh got there. Then again watching Tebow trying to set in the pocket reminds me of Brian Mitcherll the RB who was PHI and WAS emergency QB.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Alex Smith still looks flawed?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

9-1!

Piss off Niners haters!

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 21, 2011 7:53 PM EST up reply actions  

congratulations on already being mathematically eliminated from the playoffs

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 21, 2011 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, yeah, pile it on

Not like I was expecting much from them, but this season has been pretty damn miserable. I just hope they don’t move to LA at this point.

by hr on Nov 21, 2011 8:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Is that really a possibility?

I’m just excited the Niners are playing at the level they are. I mean, we’ve been the team that has been expected to break out for the last couple years and for various reasons it hasn’t happened. I honestly wasn’t expecting it this year, but I’ll take it. The impact of the new coaching staff has been amazing.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 21, 2011 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

With the EDJ contract expiring quickly and the "brand-new look" the team is going for, I'm sure it's a legitimate possibility

But what do I know, I’ve been avoiding anything Rams related since Week 4. It really sucks for me that the Cards’ season is over because every Sunday I have to make sure I don’t turn on my TV or visit ESPN in case I remember the Rams are playing. :(

by hr on Nov 21, 2011 8:29 PM EST up reply actions  

IT'S ONLY BECAUSE THE DEFENSE

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 22, 2011 9:28 AM EST up reply actions  

not 50% completion flawed

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

What are you even arguing

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I am saying that if Harbaugh and scheme

can make Smith look like an NFL QB, it can probably do something for Tebow

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I doubt it.

John Fox’s scheme made Jake Delhome look like an NFL QB for a little while, too. I think Smith had much better fundamentals in the pocket than Tebow even before Harbaugh arrived. (When you say “NFL QB,” I think pocket passer.)

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Jake Plummer, Michael Vick, John Elway and Steve Young had their problems early

Michael Vick had a 44% completion percentage his rookie year and a 62.6% last year. Plummer had a 69.0 Rating his 7 years in AZ, John Elway had a 47% completion rate his rookie year and a 158 TD to 157 INT under reeves and had his passer rating jump from 73.7 under Reeves to 92.8 under Wade Phillips/Jim Fassel. Steve Young was given up on by the worst team in football Tampa Bay after having a 63.1 rating 11TD/21INT over two seasons there. I am not saying Tebow ends up in those guys territory I am just saying it is a bit early to give up on the guy.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 22, 2011 9:39 AM EST up reply actions  

No way

He’s thrown 1 pick because 75% of the throws are barely to the line of scrimmage and he makes such terrible throws that they aren’t even close enough to the receivers for a defender to be close.

Good for him on the rushing, but he’s not even a real QB (see: <50% completion) so that’s not even a fair comparison to anyone other than other wildcat QBs. He’s been absolutely terrible in all but the Oakland game.

It’s a guy who is 4-1 with a 5.00 ERA and a 2 K/9. It ain’t gonna last.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Nov 21, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

in December they'll play Chicago, and then the week after they play New England

it’ll be interesting to see how that option stuff fares against a Belichick defense.

What? I can't hear you over ALL THE CHAMPAGNE BEING POURED IN MY EARS.

by nota bene on Nov 21, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Miller looks like a mix of Derrick Brooks and Derrick Thomas

If Mcgahee is healthy for those games it will be different than if they are using practice squad RB

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

He had 4 drops against NYJ several more against KC

I grew up watching Elway and have seen the team play with several styles of QB from Griese to Plummer to Cutler to Orton very different talent levels and results. All I am saying is that giving any QB 120 attempts to a completely inexperienced WR corps, behind a line starting 2 rookies, take away his top 2 RB, and expect him to look anything but subpar is unfair.

He may end up being awful but for now the results are in his favor.

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Tebow

One thing I do enjoy about Tim Tebow is his enthusiasm. The way he kinda rants and rambles in his interviews is endearing and refreshing in the face of so many seemingly boring personalities (the majority of other athletes). Part of me wishes their style of play could work in the NFL because I think it’d be cool to see a big shakeup, then I see him drop back to pass/miss wide open crosses/slants etc. and it kinda nauseates me again. His mechanical limitations are too severe for him to overcome, in my opinion. His delivery is way too long, and he’s not blessed with a particularly strong arm to begin with, and that he has happy feet/holds on to the ball too long only compounds his mechanical issues.

You only did it so that you could wear terry underwear and feel the city air run past your body

by lunchboxbomb on Nov 21, 2011 8:34 PM EST up reply actions  

My little brother who bleeds orange and blue says

that he really wants to hate Tebow, but then he pulls something like he did against NYJ, or SD, or MIA, or KC where when they let him improvise the team moves. I watch Kyle Orton with his superior release time stagnate the offense and crumple under pressure. Tebow has big giant flaws, maybe he washes out and never does anything, but I would rather have a guy with his skillset on a team with no real offensive weapons and a porous offensive line than say a Matt Cassel type who went 13-28 for 93 yards against Denver

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 22, 2011 9:46 AM EST up reply actions  

i feel like John Belushi in Blues Brothers

“I CAN SEE THE LIGHT”

Thanks Fritz.

Well, baseball was fun.

by Aranathor on Nov 21, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Aren't all boners weird, though?

I mean, really.

Nyjer Morgan Fan Club President

by peppermartin on Nov 21, 2011 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

that page has 150 citations

150!

What? I can't hear you over ALL THE CHAMPAGNE BEING POURED IN MY EARS.

by nota bene on Nov 21, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Tebow's greatness causes citations to flock to him.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 21, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Just the greatest american football player ever.

Dude’s a winner.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Nov 21, 2011 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Tim Tebow feels that incompleted passes get a bad rap

so he’s determined to improve their standing in the world, one attempt at a time.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 21, 2011 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I hate to say this, but

TLR>Tebow.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 21, 2011 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Is that guy

better pitching from one side or the other?

by saladdays on Nov 21, 2011 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

There's still one thing I don't get

What if this guy starts pitching against a switch hitter? Who gets to decide which side the pitcher and batter play?

by hr on Nov 21, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

this came up in a college game he threw in. the umps decided - in the absence of an explicit rule - that the pitcher could

change sides once and the batter could change sides once, iirc.

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 21, 2011 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Covered here.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 21, 2011 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

ooh

So if the batter is replaced with a PH, the pitcher can switch sides again? TLR would have a fit..

by hr on Nov 21, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's something kinda neat (sorry, it doesn't involve Tim Tebow)

StatCorner’s wOBAr stat has Jose Bautista at .422 for 2011, and it has Pujols at .418.

by mattybobo on Nov 21, 2011 4:03 PM EST reply actions  

nice

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 21, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I know that wOBAr on their site regresses to the player's previous batted ball habits, right?

And it uses league-average when there’s not enough data? I can see a problem with comparing Bautista (who has only two awesome years) and Pujols (who has several awesome years), but I also assume they weight the more recent seasons more heavily.

by mattybobo on Nov 21, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, but we don't know where the "not enough data" cutoff is.

However, for Bautista and Pujols, I feel comfortable that there is enough data.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 5:17 PM EST up reply actions  

What the hell is Heyman going on abou

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 4:04 PM EST reply actions  

sorry, i will never get tired of this.

fangraphs 2011 rankings (and in fairness these were a broader projection of club health over the next several years):

twins #6
rockies #10
orioles #15
mariners #17
athletics #18
cubs #19
padres #20

cardinals #13
tigers #16
brewers #22
diamondbacks #29

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 21, 2011 4:15 PM EST reply actions  

#6org

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I imagine that Brewers ranking is largely based on Farm which is pretty damn thin right now

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I know, but the Cubs' system isn't great either ever since that trade to Tampa Bay

And the Cubs won’t be contenders for at least two or three years, I’d say. Eh, only my opinion though.

by hr on Nov 21, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

true I think this system weighed resources really heavily

the whole the Cubs have money so they can afford more FA to plug holes than the Brewers, I also imagine they imagined Soto doens’t fall off a cliff, Pena has a decent season, and that Castro progresses. At least I imagine that must be the thinking because it can’t be on field talent

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

After the Garza trade, I don't see how it could have been perceived as better than the Cardinals system.

I say this as someone who is absolutely open to having his mind changed.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 5:30 PM EST up reply actions  

from whom? color me very skeptical.

i think the reds clearly had a better system. the astros and brewers clearly had very empty farms. the pirates farm is not that interesting.

ours was at least comparable, even before the trade and before a lot of great talent developed in our farm.

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 21, 2011 5:38 PM EST up reply actions  

To be fair to that System

nobody saw AZ having a Season like this(unless you think replacing Haren with Saunders was a great idea) or that they would get two legit Ace prospects in one draft

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 21, 2011 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

These ratings bounce around so much...

it’s hard to take them seriously. The Orioles have to be dead last now. The Twins are probably in the mid-20s…. The Diamondbacks are top 10, considering they have four aces waiting in the minors. I just hope we don’t climb to #6.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Nov 21, 2011 7:25 PM EST up reply actions  

CHRONO TRIGGER TO IOS

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 4:29 PM EST reply actions  

o_o

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm going to get trouble at work playing this on my ipad

Thanks. When I"m fired for playing I"m blaming you.

bollocks

by SecondHalfMatt on Nov 22, 2011 12:00 AM EST up reply actions  

OT: you guys. i have a problem.

the last video game that i invested any sort of time into was mvp baseball 2005. i’m not much of a gamer. i do love watching people play video games because i love story-telling, and there are some game series that are really rather good at telling stories through an interactive medium.

i have a little bit of free time coming up with the holidays (and my work is slowing up). one of the best games i ever watched was the elder scrolls iv: oblivion. the elder scrolls v: skyrim just came out. i figured i’d pick it up, play a little during my free time.

i’ve been completely sucked in. it’s nuts. i’ve had the game for four days and i’ve already sunk close to 30 hours into it. i’m at work right now, on lunch, and my only thought is “man i can’t wait to go home so i can play skyrim”.

i need some other outlet for my free time now or i’ll be in tamriel forever.

p.s. if you do not have this game, and you have a computer capable of playing it (or an xbox 360 or a playstation 3) you need to go get it. words of warning: it is not a short game, so you’ll need lots of free time or a willingness to be playing it for a long time; it is mildly addictive; and you may be slowly absorbed into a fantasy.

#firstworldproblems

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Nov 21, 2011 5:08 PM EST reply actions  

I bought the first two elder scrolls games when they came out in the mid-90's

and enjoyed the hell out of them….but my wife did not feel the same way. I bought the third game, and my wife gave me a dirty look while she was nursing our first-born, and I put it in a drawer. Haven’t seen it since.

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 21, 2011 5:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Seriously

Do NOT get Skyrim if you want to have any kind of life for the next month. I repeat, do NOT get Skyrim.

I don’t even normally like RPG’s, and I’m so sucked into this game that it’s scary.

DO YOU THINK IT'S NOT GOING TO BE WHAT IT IS?!!

by Vindicator9000 on Nov 21, 2011 7:49 PM EST up reply actions  

hahaha i'm the same way

i set up my schedule to allow me to binge on it, so that helps. There’s so much to do. It’s to the point where I don’t want to go to a new town cause I’ll be flooded with quests and I already have dozens to do!

11 in '11!! To Infinity and Beyond!!! ...

by kalmavet on Nov 21, 2011 5:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I am over 50 hours into it

Its amazing. I had never played an elder scrolls game before this one, but this game is unlike anything I have ever played.

by Wombat x on Nov 21, 2011 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

the crazy part is, i've done one of the quests in the main storyline.

only one! i think if you do absolutely everything possible, the game would take you years.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Nov 21, 2011 6:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Question for anyone: Elder Scrolls >, <, or = Mass Effect?

I ask with a strong Mass Effect bias.

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment." -- Woody Allen

by Cardinals645 on Nov 21, 2011 6:15 PM EST up reply actions  

having seen oblivion and both mass effect games,

as well as playing skyrim, i would say that generally speaking bethesda > bioware (>tebow).

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Nov 21, 2011 6:20 PM EST up reply actions  

which mass effect did you like better?

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Nov 21, 2011 6:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmm... Idk there were aspects of both that I preferred.

I liked the RPG aspects of the first one quite a bit and obviously nobody liked mining in ME2. The missions in the 2nd one were much more interesting though, iirc. They weren’t necessarily directly involved in the story more often, but they had more depth to them than “Go into this building and shoot baddies.” I’m very hopeful that ME3 will bring back some of the RPG parts and continue to improve the combat and story strength.

Overall, I guess I would prefer the 2nd one. It obviously brought a lot more depth to some of the characters on Shepard’s team, and for me that really enhanced the feel of the game and its universe. That’s the aspect of games I enjoy most I think. If there isn’t a very good story, I’m not that interested.

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment." -- Woody Allen

by Cardinals645 on Nov 21, 2011 6:32 PM EST up reply actions  

(>,<)

Look, it’s an angry owl

by mattybobo on Nov 21, 2011 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

reminds me of cartman

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Nov 21, 2011 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Skyrim over mass effect

I have replayed mass effect 1 and 2 multiple times also.

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 21, 2011 7:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Skyrim is not mildly addicting

It is like crack cocaine addicting. I don’t even want to take a break from it to smoke a cigarette.

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 21, 2011 7:43 PM EST up reply actions  

fallout 3 is pretty awesome too

I think in terms of story telling, mass effect is superior, but game play wise elder scrolls is better.

I want Tung Po!

by ILoveTheSt.LouisCardinals on Nov 21, 2011 8:43 PM EST up reply actions  

to quote one of my friends

“Skyrim? Not getting it… for fear of dropping out of college.”

"Nothing Motte does is quiet. It's mostly screamy and intense." - sheckiezx
"I'm a graduate of the Mike Shannon School of Diction" - Al Hrabosky

by monkeysareblue on Nov 21, 2011 8:45 PM EST up reply actions  

This happened to my roomate

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 21, 2011 9:53 PM EST up reply actions  

This is why I'm glad Diablo 3 wasn't released while I was still in school

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 9:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Ahh the memories

Diablo 2 came out when I was in college. Lived in a nerd dorm. Hard not to play

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 21, 2011 9:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Trimmed or shaved?

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment." -- Woody Allen

by Cardinals645 on Nov 21, 2011 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

say it ain't so!

What? I can't hear you over ALL THE CHAMPAGNE BEING POURED IN MY EARS.

by nota bene on Nov 21, 2011 10:15 PM EST up reply actions  

it's happened. based on my suggested listening interests, even my pandora feed has figured out that i'm a beta male.

what’s next? is amazon going to suggest “he’s just not that into you” and “eat pray love” as books i might be interested in?

it’s somehow much worse to have computer algorithims doubt your masculinity.

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 21, 2011 5:18 PM EST reply actions  

Pandora doesn't know you Jokur.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 5:27 PM EST up reply actions   4 recs

The wife thinks I spend too much time

I told her that if she though

Nyjer Morgan Fan Club President

by peppermartin on Nov 21, 2011 5:28 PM EST reply actions  

how interesting.

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Nov 21, 2011 5:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow, that was weird

First prize goes to who can FILL THAT CAPTION!

Nyjer Morgan Fan Club President

by peppermartin on Nov 21, 2011 5:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Is this like a madlibs assignment?

Insert verb here and noun there?

2012 MLB All Star Game FanFest: July 6-10 at the Kansas City Convention Center! Ask me for more info!

by mtzxc on Nov 21, 2011 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

VEBers who know Portland, OR (IHB is this you ?)

Voodoo Doughnuts.
Overhyped or for real ?

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 21, 2011 5:52 PM EST reply actions  

100% for real

they have maple bars with bacon! and they are delicious

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Nov 21, 2011 6:48 PM EST up reply actions  

The bacon madness is reaching new heights.

A coworker has being going to McDonalds and ordering McRibs with bacon. I figure I’ll either have to eventually a) take him to the hospital or b) bail him out of jail when he rages over the McRib being discontinued again.

WWCD? CDGAF.

by JStymie on Nov 22, 2011 12:13 AM EST up reply actions  

if you like Donuts even a little they are legit

"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides

by TomCat009 on Nov 22, 2011 9:49 AM EST up reply actions  

forgot to include HBP

it’s now .276/.358/.471

THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!

by CodyG on Nov 21, 2011 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Idk much about how MLEs are calculated

but how would adding HBPs drop his BA and SLG?

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment." -- Woody Allen

by Cardinals645 on Nov 21, 2011 6:39 PM EST up reply actions  

oh i'm on tonight you know the math don't lie

and i’m starting to feel it’s right

it is what it is, not what we thought it'd be

by il rosso on Nov 21, 2011 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

an HBP counts as a plate appearance, but not an AB

denominator of SLG is ABs.

What? I can't hear you over ALL THE CHAMPAGNE BEING POURED IN MY EARS.

by nota bene on Nov 21, 2011 10:17 PM EST up reply actions  

now look at ryan theriot's actual line

now look back.

diamonds

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

2011 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!

by IHeartBoog on Nov 21, 2011 6:48 PM EST up reply actions  

It's special flame-retardant leather

that can withstand the sizzling heat coming from his right hand.

by Robth on Nov 21, 2011 6:53 PM EST up reply actions  

When you mentioned flame-retardant

I immediately thought of Ray “Burger” King, nicknamed so because 1) he probably put away a few bags of Whoppers in his time, and 2) for much of his last season with us he was definitely “flame-broiled”. I just hope we don’t name Cleto “Two-Can” for the pair of water pails he’ll need to bring to the mound to put out the fires he starts.

I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson

by Solanus on Nov 21, 2011 11:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Forgot to post this earlier:

Stanley F. Musial, Swingin’ Stan the Man

And yes, Stan Musial’s middle initial really is “F” which is so much awesome.

by mattybobo on Nov 21, 2011 7:03 PM EST reply actions  

frank

TLR is gone, long live the king

by sportsman on Nov 21, 2011 11:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Franciszek

Anglicized to Frank

I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson

by Solanus on Nov 21, 2011 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

From the article linked to in the blurb about Sam Freeman:

“David Freese – I hope he isn’t our plan for 3B next year. I remain firmly off the Freese bandwagon. The power spike from last year continues to look aberrant when I watch him swing in person. His hitting doesn’t excite me and I worry he can’t pick it well enough to be anything more than a +1 player overall.”

Oh, how things can change.

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Nov 21, 2011 7:04 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

So who watched this week's The Walking Dead?

This isn’t much of a spoiler,

but at some point in the episode Dale confronts Shane about this time he saw Shane pull a gun on Rick (when Rick wasn’t looking or was far away or something), before thinking better of what. When did this happen?

RE-SIGN EVERYONE

by Notorious PSC on Nov 21, 2011 7:09 PM EST reply actions  

Probably the first season

I forget cause that show kinda sucks.

by saul wright on Nov 22, 2011 2:50 AM EST up reply actions  

minor league WAR

bgh, how did you calculate minor league WAR?
Is minor league replacement level calculable?

Cardinals fan from Korea

by FreeRedbird on Nov 21, 2011 7:51 PM EST reply actions  

I didn't calculate the players' individual WAR.

Statcorner has WAR calculated for each player.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 7:53 PM EST up reply actions  

it does not make much sense, imo

per StatCorner,
“Wins Above Replacement(hitting and position only), using average as 2 wins over replacement”

I have no problem with wOBA or wRAA for minor leaguers, but using WAR for them seems like a bit of a stretch. I don’t think there is a general consensus among sabermetrics community about the minor league replacement level; even if it exists, it is very doubtful there is a 2 wins gap between the replacement level and the league average, just like the majors.

Cardinals fan from Korea

by FreeRedbird on Nov 21, 2011 8:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Replacement Level
even if it exists, it is very doubtful there is a 2 wins gap between the replacement level and the league average, just like the majors.

Unless you set the formula up so there is.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 8:48 PM EST up reply actions  

After his 2011 4.33 BB/9,

I’m interested to see how moving him to the rotation goes.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 8:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Just imagine if

the Reds try to move Aroldis Chapman and his 7.38 BB/9 to the rotation.

#12in12

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Nov 21, 2011 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

3 2/3 IP per start while still averaging 120 pitches?

"Nothing Motte does is quiet. It's mostly screamy and intense." - sheckiezx
"I'm a graduate of the Mike Shannon School of Diction" - Al Hrabosky

by monkeysareblue on Nov 21, 2011 8:59 PM EST up reply actions  

lol reds

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 21, 2011 9:55 PM EST up reply actions  

That's how baseball go.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 21, 2011 8:54 PM EST up reply actions  

yes, texas is going out on a limb here.

are they doing this because they have faith in feliz? or no faith in the starting pitchers available as free agents and in trades? i’d certainly say the market is incredibly tight on starting pitching this year. it starts with CJ Wilson – who they seemed to have soured on — and drops pretty precipitously, especially if you accept that kuroda will either only sign in LA or go back to japan.

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 21, 2011 8:54 PM EST up reply actions  

A one or two year deal gets him...

and the upside is significant. There are basically three tiers of FA pitchers: Darvish/Wilson, Jackson/Buerhle, then everyone else (Capuano/Maholm?).

It’s stupifyingly bad – I guess I could see giving Jackson the Lohse contract, but everyone else is completely undesirable given performance and/or projected salary.

Sign Roy O

by guayzimi on Nov 21, 2011 9:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder if its a Nolan Ryan mandated move.

Ryan was kinda similar right? High K rates, high BB rates, throws 100 MPH.

#12in12

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Nov 21, 2011 8:59 PM EST up reply actions  

There's been one.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 21, 2011 8:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Right here.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 21, 2011 8:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, that guy.

I dunno. He’s posted bad info before. No source listed. Hmmm.

#HappySeason

by The Continental on Nov 21, 2011 8:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Better question...

Who is taking over at Springfield?

#12in12

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Nov 21, 2011 8:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Mike Shildt

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 8:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Up from JC

So, who’ll be at JC? Do the manager shuffle!

#HappySeason

by The Continental on Nov 21, 2011 9:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Corey Patterson

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 21, 2011 9:01 PM EST up reply actions  

NOOOOOOOOOOO

No, actually it’s Oliver Marmol, per @JC_Cardinals.

#HappySeason

by The Continental on Nov 21, 2011 9:02 PM EST up reply actions  

holy crap

he’s only like 24 or 25

#12in12

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Nov 21, 2011 9:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Since the robot never visits anymore
azruavatar azruavatar
iirc former player now 25 years old. Hitting coach for gcl. Terrible former hitter “@MattyfromMo: @azruavatar who is Oliver Marmol?”

#HappySeason

by The Continental on Nov 21, 2011 9:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm always around

just haven’t found VEB very hospitable recently. Moderated a pair of comments in today’s thread before they were commented on by people who leave their browsers open too long.

Beware: Velociraptors may be present.

by azruavatar on Nov 21, 2011 9:09 PM EST up reply actions  

>gives robot a big hug<

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 21, 2011 9:10 PM EST up reply actions  

it's all my baby talk, isn't it?

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 21, 2011 9:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Must be why it's been not hospitable.

Unless something happened over the weekend.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 21, 2011 9:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Chuckie Fick

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Nov 21, 2011 9:22 PM EST up reply actions  

more like the pissing and moaning about TPG

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 21, 2011 9:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I must've missed that.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Nov 22, 2011 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Whoa...

2010 and 2011 Appy Champions?

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 21, 2011 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

There was 3-4 days ago when it was first mentioned

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of end of regular season)
120 1/3IP, 133 K, 52 BB/HBP, 55 ER, 7 HR, 3.04 FIP
Postseason: 2 Starts- 15 IP, 9 H, 10 K, 2 BB, 3 ER, 19:10 GO:AO

by VolsnCards5 on Nov 21, 2011 8:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Developing

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 21, 2011 9:02 PM EST up reply actions  

troy glaus should be back in the lineup by may!

brad penny is on a rehab assignment!

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 21, 2011 9:02 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Just wait until..

Mulder, Carpenter, and Clement come off the DL!

#12in12

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Nov 21, 2011 9:04 PM EST up reply actions  

The PCL average age is almost two years older than the MLB average age? What?

"Nothing Motte does is quiet. It's mostly screamy and intense." - sheckiezx
"I'm a graduate of the Mike Shannon School of Diction" - Al Hrabosky

by monkeysareblue on Nov 21, 2011 9:03 PM EST reply actions  

AAA

Home of has beens and never will bes.

The negative waves. Always with the negative waves...

Elation. Sadness. Mayhem. Champagne. Sleepless fury. Never been a night like it. - Joe Posnanski

by TBender on Nov 21, 2011 9:04 PM EST up reply actions  

People who think otherwise fall into one of two camps

1) those who think current AAA baseball=1980’s American Association
2) those who don’t appreciate how poor the PCL is as a pitching trainer. As a result it’s also a poor batter trainer.

"Hey, why don't you people watch the game?"-my mom after viewing a wave going around Chase Field.

by Reynolds rapper on Nov 21, 2011 9:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Where are you getting that from?

MLB average age was 27.2 in 2010. The 2011 average age for position players in the PCL was 26.8.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 21, 2011 9:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Misread a column on the MCarp section

Thought MLB LAA was 25.0

"Nothing Motte does is quiet. It's mostly screamy and intense." - sheckiezx
"I'm a graduate of the Mike Shannon School of Diction" - Al Hrabosky

by monkeysareblue on Nov 22, 2011 12:51 AM EST up reply actions  

Currently listening to Green Day: American Idiot

which I only mention because I know it’ll cause half of you to visibly wince.

#HappySeason

by The Continental on Nov 21, 2011 9:06 PM EST reply actions  

i assume i'm in the non-wincing half

because i don’t know why this would cause half of veb to wince.

??

Don't say hi to me.

by chalk on Nov 21, 2011 9:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Because it's one of the most atrocious musical works ever created?

"Now that they've come out with that great stat, 'innings pitched per inning'-- is there anything they don't have a stat for these days?" -Al Hraboski, 3 Jun 11

by SleepyCA on Nov 22, 2011 1:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh look. Hyperbole.

Not quite adynaton, though. Try harder.

How about this:
“American Idiot is such an atrocious musical work it causes sterility in all who hear it.”

#HappySeason

by The Continental on Nov 22, 2011 1:54 AM EST up reply actions  

And you don't like the Pixies

Damnit man. American Idiot was one of my favorite albums when I was younger, but I listened to it the other day and it hurt a little inside. Jesus of Suburbia is still a really cool song.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 21, 2011 9:59 PM EST up reply actions  

And Holiday

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 21, 2011 10:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Holiday's decent,

mainly because I associate it with days when class got canceled in high school. /boardingschool

"Nothing Motte does is quiet. It's mostly screamy and intense." - sheckiezx
"I'm a graduate of the Mike Shannon School of Diction" - Al Hrabosky

by monkeysareblue on Nov 22, 2011 12:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Love the Pixies

and hate everything Green Day did after Insomnia.

Come at me bro.

DO YOU THINK IT'S NOT GOING TO BE WHAT IT IS?!!

by Vindicator9000 on Nov 22, 2011 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, that's fine

But Kim Deal only wrote like 3 songs. Most of the time she just played mediocre bass to the amazing songs that Frank Black wrote.

I’m gonna change your mind. Listen to the last two minutes of this song, this song, this song, this song, this song. There are plenty of songs where Frank Black doesn’t scream (although, I think it’s awesome when he does).

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 21, 2011 10:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, she went on to other stuff.

And couldn’t get her songs on Pixies albums because Black wouldn’t allow them on.

But, I’ll give your links a spin and remain open minded.

#HappySeason

by The Continental on Nov 21, 2011 10:27 PM EST up reply actions  

FWIW, I have Bossanova.

One of the few albums that I’ve ripped, then deleted.

#HappySeason

by The Continental on Nov 21, 2011 10:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I just don't know what to say

Bossanova is one of my favorite albums ever.

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 21, 2011 10:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll concede that Velouria is one of the bright spots on that album

(if on the edge of being annoyingly repetitive). The rest just doesn’t do much for me.

But, hey, vive la différence!

#HappySeason

by The Continental on Nov 21, 2011 10:48 PM EST up reply actions  

You don't like the Happening?

Secretary of WAR and defense (Tyler Greene Fanclub). PUT TYLER ON THE GREENE.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 21, 2011 10:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, there's Black's usual delivery

then there’s some kind of odd atonal droning, then there’s more FB, then there’s the bit at the end. The end is OK, but it’s only the last quarter or so of the song.

FWIW, I assumed that I’d like them. So many bands that I like consider the Pixies to be an influence. Plus, I like The Breeders. I was surprised when I just didn’t like them at all.

#HappySeason

by The Continental on Nov 21, 2011 11:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Billie Holiday's Lady in Satin

one of Lindsey Buckingham’s solo albums and Bossanova.

#HappySeason

by The Continental on Nov 21, 2011 10:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Wake me up when

you decide to play something else.

Beer and Baseball. Baseball and Beer. It's not hard to reevaluate your priorities when you only have two.

by PugetSoundCardsAddict on Nov 21, 2011 10:33 PM EST up reply actions  

allegedly, multiple clubs are in on jack wilson.

no word on why. do they think licensed jack wilson masks are going to be all the rage for scaring children come Halloween 2012?

ignorance without the bliss - aimee mann

by tom s. on Nov 21, 2011 9:07 PM EST reply actions  

was the Wigginton trade mentioned?

I didnt see it anywhere

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Nov 21, 2011 9:20 PM EST reply actions  

No, not really

Good trade for the Rockies to get rid of him. Sub-par defensively, mediocre offensively; the only thing he’s good at is being able to play a bunch of positions sufficiently. Honestly I’m not sure why exactly Philly wanted him…

But then again, I haven’t been sure what’s up in Philly since that Papelbon signing…

by hr on Nov 21, 2011 9:24 PM EST up reply actions  

ish.

The difference being that Wiggington is actually somewhat useful at this game called Base Ball.

2012 MLB All Star Game FanFest: July 6-10 at the Kansas City Convention Center! Ask me for more info!

by mtzxc on Nov 22, 2011 12:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Chiefs D doing pretty well againts the Pats so far

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Nov 21, 2011 9:33 PM EST reply actions  

aaaaah, i love new computer smell

new computer setup, not so much

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78

by d-dee on Nov 21, 2011 9:45 PM EST reply actions  

You got a Mac, I'm guessing?

trollface.jpg

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 9:56 PM EST up reply actions  

you should be slapped

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78

by d-dee on Nov 21, 2011 10:04 PM EST up reply actions  

The RockMNation postgame thread is like 3/4 gifs

Awesome

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 10:01 PM EST reply actions  

it's how they roll.

i really love that place during basketball season. there’s no one harder working in the blogosphere than bill connelly.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 21, 2011 11:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, their basketball coverage is incredible

I guess I should try and go to tomorrow’s game…

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 11:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Nah I'll be in Rolla Saturday

And tickets are apparently only $10 for the upper level…

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 21, 2011 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 22, 2011 12:05 AM EST up reply actions  

jealous.

i would go if i were on the other side of the state.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 22, 2011 12:07 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm a Mizzou fan, but I'm not a HUGE Mizzou fan, so I don't know if I'm gonna go

If I can get a group together maybe

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 22, 2011 12:08 AM EST up reply actions  

10 dollars...

to see two ranked teams play basketball, one of which you happen to casually follow.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 22, 2011 12:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Or I can spend time with my wife, who I haven't slept in the same bed with in 5 days, doing something we both actually like doing

I mean, if she’s enthusiastic about going, we’ll absolutely do it, but she’ll probably wanna do a nice dinner and go to a movie or something

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 22, 2011 12:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Why to which part?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 22, 2011 12:15 AM EST up reply actions  

She works nights

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 22, 2011 12:15 AM EST up reply actions  

god I hate the fucking Patriots

What? I can't hear you over ALL THE CHAMPAGNE BEING POURED IN MY EARS.

by nota bene on Nov 21, 2011 10:34 PM EST reply actions  

douchebags.

luckily i think they’re overrated. the beat the shit out of the shitty teams but don’t do too well against the good ones.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 21, 2011 11:07 PM EST up reply actions  

the rest of that division is shit too

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Nov 21, 2011 11:08 PM EST up reply actions  

the AFC as a whole is down this year.

the west, east, and south have a grand total of three not-shitty teams between them. the north has two great teams and one not-too-shitty one.

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 21, 2011 11:10 PM EST up reply actions  

at least their defense is subpar this year

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Nov 21, 2011 11:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

This year’s NFL season was locked out like the NBA, canceled like the 2004 World Series. /coltsfan

"Nothing Motte does is quiet. It's mostly screamy and intense." - sheckiezx
"I'm a graduate of the Mike Shannon School of Diction" - Al Hrabosky

by monkeysareblue on Nov 22, 2011 12:49 AM EST up reply actions  

#playliketurdforrobertgriffinthethird

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 22, 2011 12:49 AM EST up reply actions  

what's football?

/ramsfan

i fail at teh subjunctive

by stlcardinalsfang on Nov 22, 2011 12:50 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

wat

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' -- Whittier
Twitter

by mysterui on Nov 22, 2011 12:05 AM EST up reply actions  

I said

Mark Hamilton showed very little home run power this year.

THE BATMAN|TOWEL BOY.|VP of TG Fanclub
Twitter|Google+|FREE TYLER GREENE!

by CodyG on Nov 22, 2011 12:07 AM EST up reply actions  

stupid thunder

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 22, 2011 1:32 AM EST reply actions  

the Farmhaus guy lost his dog

http://lockerz.com/s/158289659

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 22, 2011 1:35 AM EST reply actions  

fredbird stole it

payback for crashing the WS post-game celebration.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 22, 2011 1:37 AM EST up reply actions  

BOLO an unmarked van

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 22, 2011 1:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Hilarious.

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment." -- Woody Allen

by Cardinals645 on Nov 22, 2011 3:19 AM EST up reply actions  

lolwut

Maritimers do know some good music, though.

"Nothing Motte does is quiet. It's mostly screamy and intense." - sheckiezx
"I'm a graduate of the Mike Shannon School of Diction" - Al Hrabosky

by monkeysareblue on Nov 22, 2011 2:15 AM EST up reply actions  

good morning veb

no baseball news is boring.

TortyCraig
My guess as to the meaning of Yadi's neck tattoos is that they are the symbols from an ancient civilization for "Caught Stealing."

by spfldbird on Nov 22, 2011 8:32 AM EST reply actions  

wasted space

Can’t see any of those 3 being taken in rule 5. Ottavino, once removed and not claimed by anyone already, is a marginal major leaguer. Freeman’s a AA talent right now and Fick doesn’t have enough command to reach the show. However, if the org protects no additional players it admits a weakness. They were all added for show just like Kozma last year. Poor Pete was drafted for signability and has been dogged by the controversy since, along with the teams foolish judgement in trying to rush him up the ladder when he’s not ready. Kozma shouldn’t be on the 40 man roster again. Hamilton and Robinson can be easily removed too. Lots of space for change if needed.

by Wileyvet on Nov 25, 2011 2:03 AM EST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

The Internet's #1 St. Louis Cardinals blog.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Hahaha_small
Viva El Birdos Loves Jim Edmonds
St-louis-cardinals-script_small
Best Cardinal Managers EVER!
Hahaha_small
These were a few of my favorite things (fink reminisces about the 2011 regular season)
N1046613005_8392_small
Our 2010-2011 strays

Recent FanPosts

Dscn0811_small
Simba
1989_bgh_cropped_small
St. Louis Cardinals Backup Catchers of the Tony La Russa/Dave Duncan Era
St-louis-cardinals-script_small
Hypothetical Expansion and Protected Cardinals
Dsc01844_small
Cardinals take the Governor's Joplin Challenge, will help build 35 homes for torando victims
St-louis-cardinals-script_small
Best Cardinals of All-Time - Relief Pitching Edition
St-louis-cardinals-script_small
Best Cardinals of All-Time - Starting Pitching Edition

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

Jack_benny__1__small DanUpBaby

Editors

Bendermad_small azruavatar

Trigun_001_small the red baron

Images_small tom s.

Authors

1989_bgh_cropped_small bgh

Valverde_medium_small vivaelpujols