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Mozeliak's Cardinals and Matheny's New Coaches

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Mike Matheny should not be the St. Louis Cardinals' manager. He has no coaching or managerial experience at any level other than as a special instructor during Spring Training. The Cardinals, and John Mozeliak in particular, encouraged his return to baseball because of how much they respect him. However, of the six candidates Matheny was by far the least qualified. It seemed at first as if the Cardinals were looking only at candidates with major league experience, but clearly that was not the case. "Mo" and Cardinals chairman Bill DeWitt made it clear they were not as concerned with his lack of experience, and Matheny himself said after his interview,

They made it clear that this is a leadership position and that what they were looking for to fill the role is a leader. Yes, there are the baseball things and the knowledge of baseball, but we talked a lot about the characteristics that are necessary to be a leader at this level and a leader of that clubhouse.

While there is a great deal of truth to that assessment of the role of modern major league manager, Matheny's lack of experience with "baseball things and the knowledge of baseball" is so utterly deficient compared to the other candidates it seems almost absurd he would be given the job. In any corporation in America, he would have to be the son of the CEO's best friend in order to get the job. Which, as many beat writers and bloggers have pointed out, is probably precisely why he got the job.

What a number of fans probably don't realize is Tony LaRussa was the most powerful man in the Cardinals organization since he won the World Series in 2006 and Walt Jocketty was fired after the 2007 season. Since Mozeliak took over there has been a concerted effort to return to the days of Branch Rickey when for years the Cardinals had the best farm system (and indeed the only farm system for several years) in all of baseball that regularly produced cornerstone players for the parent club. Two recent examples provide illustration of what Mozeliak is trying to prevent with Matheny's hire.

By now no Cardinals fan is unfamiliar with the stories of Brendan Ryan and Colby Rasums. TLR forced the trades of both players because they did not get along with him.** The only reason Rasmus (a five-tool player in the Grady Sizemore mold) was ever available in the first place was because of his strained relationship with TLR. What is more interesting is Brendan Ryan's story. The Cardinals have for years now been looking for their "shortstop of the future", ever since The Wizard retired and Edgar Renteria wanted more money than the Cardinals were willing to give him. They have made several trades and moves to acquire a shortstop in the past year (Ryan Theriot, Daniel Descalso, Nick Punto, Tyler Green, Pete Kozma, Rafael Furcal) out of concern for their defense, when all along they had an elite defensive shortstop in Ryan. He was driven out of town for the cardinal (no pun intended) sin of having the wrong attitude; something that could have been fixed through veteran leadership. But because he rubbed TLR the wrong way, he was shown the door.

**I will admit the Rasmus trade can no longer be questioned because it gave TLR the pieces he needed to win the World Series. It did not guarantee a WS win, but it would not have happened without trading Rasmus. I no longer care what Rasmus' career arc is; it was worth sacrificing him for our 11th World Series.

I am not saying the Rasums and Ryan trades should not have happened or were bad or good, nor am I discounting the importance of team chemistry. What I am pointing out is those trades were made with no thought given to the big picture plan for the team. They were made solely because TLR wanted those two players gone.  That is the sort of thing that will never happen with Matheny as the manager. Mozeliak is making it clear this is his team and he will run and build it as he sees fit. Yes, Matheny will have input as far as the 40-man roster, Spring Training invites, trades and the several MLB drafts are concerned, and clearly if there is a problem in the clubhouse he will work with Mozeliak to resolve it. However, Matheny will largely work with the players he is given, and any problems will be resolved in respect to the overall blueprint Mozeliak has for the team, not Matheny's whims.

The other side of the Matheny hire is no one really knows how he will fare as a manager. He has no track record on any level, and the reviews on unconventional hires (such as his and Robin Ventura's of the White Sox) are mixed. The Diamondbacks were terrible in their one-plus year under front-office-man-turned-manager A.J. Hinch, who was promptly fired in July 2010. Two even more unconventional hires, Jerry Coleman of the Padres (1980) and Larry Dierker of the Astros (1997), were both former broadcasters before being hired as their teams' managers. Coleman only lasted a year, going 73-89. This wasn't a surprise; they were terrible the year before and actually improved by five wins. Dierker actually won four NL Central titles with the Astros, though that had much more to do with the fact the Astros were loaded with a core of Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio and Lance Berkman than any managerial skills he possessed (as a side note, the Astros lost in the NLDS all four of those years).

Now, at the top of the blog I said Matheny should not be the Cardinals manager. That is not my opinion of the hire, merely an assessment of his resume compared to the other candidates'. Whether this will be a good hire or a poor one will depend much more on the talent Mozeliak can put on the roster than any managerial skill Matheny might have. He might turn out to be a fantastic manager, being able to be a leader of men and a decent tactician. What he lacks in TLR's skill with the X's and O's of the game, he will have to make up for in his leadership abilities in order to succeed. The Rangers and Ron Washington proved you can have great success and be one of the worst tacticians in the game. Sure, they lost the World Series two years in a row, but they were also in the World Series two years in a row, something incredibly difficult to do in the Wild Card era.

What Matheny's downfall may ultimately be is too high of expectations. TLR is arguably the best X's and O's manager in baseball history and no one is going to be able to teach that level of understanding to Matheny. He must learn through experience, and more importantly, failure. For baseball is a game defined by failure. And it is not critically important Matheny be a great strategist right off the bat. As discussed above, the talent level of players usually has more to do with the success or failure of a manager than his tactical skill set. However, where bad X's and O's managers are exposed are in small sample sizes like 7-game playoff series. If Ron Washington had Nelson Cruz positioned properly, Game 6 would be remembered as the sloppy, run-happy conclusion to the run-fest everyone predicted the Rangers-Cardinals World Series would be. The Cardinals won the World Series in large part because TLR simply out-managed and out-maneuvered Ron Washington. But it would be hard to be as bad tactically as Ron Washington, so take heart Cardinal fans. 

I personally like Matheny's hire. Or at the very least I do not dislike his hiring. I hope he succeeds because I always respected and liked him as a catcher. I also believe he has the intellect and drive to be a very successful manager. But it is clear his power will be limited, unlike the incomparable TLR.

Star-divide

With that said, Matheny must get to work hiring a new coaching staff. I originally set out to write this post about the new coaching staff, then got sidetracked and wrote about Mo instead. So here are some thoughts on who could be back at the five major coaching positions and whom they might get to replace them.

Pitching Coach. Dave Duncan. Thankfully, Dunc is already under contract for next year, with an option for 2013. The Cardinals' most important coach, he could be the first coach ever elected to the Hall of Fame. He is also probably the only member of the coaching staff Mozeliak respects enough to keep around, as his contributions to the team over the years are undeniable. Duncan has said he is only as available as his wife's health permits, but at last one year of Dave Duncan as his pitching coach will give Matheny the smoothest possible transition into the majors. When looking to replace Duncan (most likely after the 2012 season), the Cardinals should turn to either Padres' pitching coach Darren Balsley or Greg Maddux. Maddux-Lite of the Rangers is a possibility, but he seems to want to make a career move up, not sideways. I personally vote for Greg Maddux, who could very well be the next Dave Duncan 

Bench Coach. Former: Joe Pettini. Who Matheny should pick: Pettini. Who the Cardinals will hire: Chris Malony (formerly of the AAA Memphis Redbirds). Reasons for hiring Pettini: he was TLR's bench coach for 9 years. He would be invaluable in helping Matheny understand the X's and O's of the game from inside the dugout instead of from behind the plate. He, along with Dave Duncan, would just make Matheny's landing that much easier. Reasons against hiring Pettini: he was TLR's bench coach for 9 years. This is Mozeliak's team now, and he may not be comfortable with keeping many vestiges of the TLR era around. But with the Cardinals promoting Malony, the most obvious place for him is as the bench coach. It allows Mozeliak to retain total top-down control of the organization, and gives Matheny someone to teach him how to be a manager.

Batting Coach. Former: Mark McGwire. Who Matheny will pick: Not Mark McGwire. This was a TLR hiring 100%, and if Mo had had any say in the matter he probably would have never been hired in the first place. It was not that he was a bad hitting coach (Albert and co. always sang his praises and had great respect for him, and the Cardinals did have the best offense in the NL last year so he certainly didn't hurt the team), but TLR was always fiercely loyal to "his" players, and Big Mac was just one of those guys. I personally would love to see McGwire back, but I just don't think Mozeliak will allow it.

First Base Coach. Former: Dave McKay. Who Matheny will hire: Not Dave McKay. While no one really dislikes Canadians, McKay has spent his entire coaching career (since the 1986 A's) under TLR. In the Cardinals novo ordo seclorum, McKay is too close to TLR to survive.

Third Base Coach. Former: Jose Oquendo. Who Matheny should hire: Oquendo. This is the only other coach who has a shot to remain on in a post-TLR world. Matheny and Mozeliak have both said they want him back; it is now up to Oquendo to decide if he wants to come back. Cardinals fans love him, but what is more important is The Great Pujols loves him. Matheny and Mozeliak both know this, which is why they want him to stay so badly. Now, if the Cardinals lowball Pujols, it does not matter who coach is or managers are, he will sign elsewhere. But that doesn't mean the Cardinals shouldn't try and help their chances as much as possible. But it remains unclear how much Oquendo wants to come back. He was just passed over for a job he was much more qualified for than the candidate the Cardinals hired, so it just depends on how much his pride was hurt with the Matheny hire and if he can coexist with him. Eveyone wants him back, he just has to decide if he wants to be back.        

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1. About the Rasmus/Ryan trades, I don’t think you’re allowed to make such an implication. Clearly Tony didn’t care too much for either of them, but to say that it’s his completely his fault they’re gone is a stretch. None of us work for the Cardinals organization, and none of us know what the exact situation was. I don’t think we have enough facts to deduce that Tony was the driving force behind their trades.

2. I highly doubt McGwire will leave the organization. He and Matheny played together in the early ‘aughts and there is no evidence behind your claim that “This was a TLR hiring 100%, and if Mo had had any say in the matter he probably would have never been hired in the first place.” Besides, even if it was, I see no reason why Matheny would want McGwire gone, especially after last year’s offensive debacle.

Much of your post seems a bit opinionated without evidence. Your claim that Matheny is more or less a Mozeliak puppet is definitely something I haven’t thought of, but because none of us have access to the inner depths of the organization, this is very hard to prove.

by hr on Nov 16, 2011 11:58 AM EST reply actions  

Hard to fathom what goes on in anyone's mind, let alone someone like TLR. . . .

Still,hard to think of anyone who clashed personally with TLR and lasted. Some very good players were sent packing for limited return -
Ozzie – Clayton
Roen – Glauss (one year OK)
Ryan – Cleto
Rasmus – (one year great, but. . . .)
Drew – Waino – that one super

but on the whole I think the team may have been advanced if TLR had followed Whitey’s two rules: Show up on time, try hard.. . . .

An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.

HL Mencken

by akaitori on Dec 2, 2011 11:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Apparently you don't even need to be a roving instructor to get a major league managing job

The White Sox hired Robin Ventura straight off of his yacht.

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 17, 2011 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

A lot of bizarre stuff in here
Now, at the top of the blog I said Matheny should not be the Cardinals manager. That is not my opinion of the hire, merely an assessment of his resume compared to the other candidates’.

Actually, that’s pretty much the definition of your opinion. It’s fine and you’re welcome to it, but come on.

Whether this will be a good hire or a poor one will depend much more on the talent Mozeliak can put on the roster than any managerial skill Matheny might have.
Then why spend so much time writing about how he shouldn’t be manager?
However, where bad X’s and O’s managers are exposed are in small sample sizes like 7-game playoff series. If Ron Washington had Nelson Cruz positioned properly, Game 6 would be remembered as the sloppy, run-happy conclusion to the run-fest everyone predicted the Rangers-Cardinals World Series would be.
One of the most shockingly bad examples of WS management I’ve ever seen did occur in this WS, but it wasn’t Washington’s positioning of Cruz (and really I’m not sure it was positioning anyway – he could have caught that ball if he’d been more aware of the wall or timed his jump better or whatever it was that caused him to pull up a bit and make that awkward jump). It was the bullpen fiasco in game 5. As far as I know we still don’t know all the details of how that actually played out, but it was ugly. We won the WS thanks to a lot of luck and Freese going crazy for a few games (and especially for three straight at-bats), not because TLR outmanaged Washington.
He might turn out to be a fantastic manager, being able to be a leader of men and a decent tactician.
This is one of the few things I agree with here. TLR could at times be spotty with his “X’s and O’s” decisions, to put it mildly, but from everything I’ve read and seen one thing he excelled at was motivating his team. Matheny might turn out to be great at that as well, or he might not; we don’t really have any basis for judgment yet as far as I can tell. Nor do we have any real reason to believe he’ll just be Mo’s puppet – it might be wiser to wait until something actually happens in his tenure before reaching that conclusion.

by BTown Birds fan on Nov 16, 2011 2:00 PM EST reply actions  

As stated by some others here

I think you’re overestimating TLR’s influence. Sure he had some power, certainly more than most managers, and more than Matheny will have, but he did not have final say on trades, ect. Also, just because TLR made some coaching decisions, doesn’t mean they weren’t/aren’t good ones, and it doesn’t mean Mo wasn’t behind them. Take McGwire for example. Without TLR’s influence Big Mac would never have been hired. Tony convinced both Mo and Big Mac that it was a good thing for him and for the organization for him to return to baseball. He has worked out just fine so far, and I don’t see Mo wanting to get rid of him just because he is Tony’s man. He is, presumably, a good hitting coach and is good for the club, and as long as he continues to be good, there’s no reason for him to be gone. I have confidence that he (and others) can get behind Matheny as long as Matheny’s plan is to cultivate a winning atmosphere that’s based on preparation and focus.

Also, I don’t understand the reasoning behind why certain guys shouldn’t be around in relation to their standing with TLR. It’s not like (I don’t think) Tony will be secretly trying to run the club with his minions in place.

Because Matheny

by WyoCardsFan on Nov 16, 2011 3:23 PM EST reply actions  

What bothers me about this post is surprisingly not the unquestionable TLR lovefest

but the fact that you are writing this as if it were the gospel, as if you had some first-hand knowledge and it was all black and white anyway. This post is half opinion, half speculation. Why is Mozeliak all of a sudden on a crusade to have someone do everything completely opposite to what Tony did? Why does being a coach during LaRussa’s managerial time automatically disqualify you to be a coach for Matheny? You think those guys can’t adjust, make a transition, adopt another philosophy, do their job like professionals? And yes, the trades.. there’s always been suspicion that Tony was an integral part of the reason behind the trades but really, it’s all speculative. How much influence Tony had over Mo and the other way around is also a wild guess on any of our parts.
I also think you completely underestimate the relationships Matheny has with the players and the coaches. I myself am prepared to give him a few seasons before I judge if it was a good hire or not. And not just because the man looks good in a suit but because I truly believe that with the support of the organization, the staff and the players, which he seems to have, he can do great.

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78

by d-dee on Nov 16, 2011 4:19 PM EST reply actions   5 recs

Aldretti and Bench Coach

The move of Aldretti to the seemingly critical role of bench coach (especially in the first year) seems really strange to me. I don’t know much about him, but does Aldretti know that much about in-game strategy?

Does this feel, to anyone else, like promoting the marketing guy to CFO?

This is the area that most concerned me about Matheny and I’m not (currently) encouraged by what’s happening.

Boog would have made that play.

by thepainguy on Nov 16, 2011 6:19 PM EST reply actions  

^Aldrete

Boog would have made that play.

by thepainguy on Nov 16, 2011 6:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Explanation about Aldrete...not saying it makes sense.
Joe Strauss: I’ll say this: Aldrete is prepared to take a full-time coaching gig with the Oakland A’s if not promoted to full benefits/status by the Cardinals. Since Matheny’s hire I’ve been led to believe there is a chance Aldrete may remain. He is extrement popular with players and would be a signficant loss.

#12in12

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Nov 16, 2011 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

seems like Aldrete to 1B coach

and Maloney to bench coach would be more reasonable.

#12in12

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Nov 16, 2011 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Correct me if I'm wrong...

But Maloney will be in the dugout half the time anyway right?

This seems to be searching for a problem where there isn’t one.

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 17, 2011 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Sorry. Half the outs.

Not half the time. Excuse my pessimism of our offensive capabilities in the coming year. :-D

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 17, 2011 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Does Aldrete know much about in-game strategy?

There are dozens of regular VEB commenters (and I include you in that list) who know a lot about in-game strategy and would be good at it. Why would a baseball lifer like Aldrete NOT be good at it?

I wish the idea that in-game strategy is hard would just die, already.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 17, 2011 10:07 AM EST up reply actions  

They needed to give him a full time job

or he was going to leave for the A’s (This is according to Strauss, so it’s most likely true, regardless of the douchebaggery). He’s a pretty damn good coach and would be a critical loss for the Cardinal organization.

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 17, 2011 11:23 AM EST up reply actions  

since the conclusion was presented in the first sentence
Mike Matheny should not be the St. Louis Cardinals’ manager.

it save me a lot of time /inrat

11!

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 16, 2011 8:06 PM EST reply actions  

The Others have spoken.

Well, one of them has.

#HappySeason

by The Continental on Nov 16, 2011 10:45 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

I'm not reading all that.

Johnny Gomes could not be reached for comment
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Nov 17, 2011 3:19 AM EST reply actions   3 recs

Especially after that first sentence.

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 17, 2011 11:25 AM EST up reply actions   5 recs

I made it...

through a couple of paragraphs. It’s mostly just confused and disjointed ranting.

by mynameistyler on Nov 17, 2011 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

what, you mean the

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"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
2011: Boog would've count 78

by d-dee on Nov 17, 2011 1:21 PM EST up reply actions   5 recs

Yeah

Either learn how to embed, or use the tools available to do it for you.

Yeesh.

Nice super Fanpost by the way. Although my wife is going to hunt you down with scorn after I spend the majority of the weekend clicking through all the links.

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 17, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Learning the xs and Os

Why should it be so hard on a new manager to grasp the Xs and Os? Reading the VEB threads, it is clear that many posters here have more knowledge of them than TLR ever had. If it was hard, how could these people with no real experience know so much more than professionals? Experience is obviously not needed.

Older than any three of you.

by Remember Kenny B on Nov 17, 2011 2:10 PM EST reply actions  

This is a bridge too far:
Reading the VEB threads, it is clear that many posters here have more knowledge of them than TLR ever had.

We’d like to think that, but it’s not entirely true. We aren’t privy to all the information that TLR was given, we’re making decisions based solely on what the best statistical decision would be the majority of the time, with very little input as to the condition of the players involved in those decisions. Also, we don’t have to deal with antiquated dark ages technology such as bullpen phones. So, clearly, our job is easier. We just get to criticize, and I criticize decisions more than most.

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 17, 2011 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't disagree with your overall point though:

There was a lot of discussion about getting a coach that knows the “X’s and O’s” of the game and to follow best practice procedures for getting the best outcomes. I come down on the side of the argument that a good portion of that stuff really doesn’t matter a lot as long as the person in charge is open to data driven analysis. Someone else can do the analyzing of the situations and that information can then be used to make decisions along with other information such as injury status, usage, bullpen sessions, batting practice, etc. that coaches and managers use to play the small edges.

I think what you need is a leader of men, and I think Matheny is that. He’s clearly got the respect of the players, he’s familiar with the organization, and he’s young.

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 17, 2011 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

The most important thing to me is pregame preparation of the team by the manager. That was the strong point of TLR in my opinion. He was also a good leader of men.

Older than any three of you.

by Remember Kenny B on Nov 17, 2011 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

What's most interesting to me about this post is that what you say you want from a manager

is nearly impossible to find in a manager with your preferred level of qualifications.

Do you subscribe to the mindset that “you can’t teach an old dog new tricks”? Because if you bring in someone like Francona, you’re getting Terry Francona and Tito is going to manage the way he wants to manage because that’s the way that he’s always done it.

There is something to be said for bringing in a good leader who is well respected inside the clubhouse, has good relationships with ownership, players, and coaches within the organization, but has little experience running a ball club. I think the organization was looking for someone who was different than La Russa, someone who was professional but not so set in his ways of thinking and managing, someone who is adaptable to the changing player attitudes and the draft-and-develop strategy of the front office. Someone young enough to manage a good long time and give the organization the level of consistency that they’ve enjoyed in the managers position for the last decade and a half.

I think Matheny is a good hire. I won’t say a great hire, as I have some reservations. Keeping Duncan, Mac, Lilliquist, and Oquendo on was a good move on his part. Bringing in Maloney and Aldrete were smart moves as well: both good baseball men. Both very good at what they do and familiar with the players in the organization. I think the key point here is consistency, and you don’t get that from a re-tread manager no matter how successful that person is. You get that by promoting from within and having confidence in the leadership and managing abilities of someone who was as much a coach on the field as anyone we’ve had since Red was in the dugout.

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 17, 2011 3:28 PM EST reply actions  

Of course,

Your entire post is full of multi-faceted opinions that you then say are not opinions while being a TLR apologist while inflating his abilities as a manager.

TLR’s greatest feat was to remain employed consistently for 30+ years while also managing some of the greatest talent ever to play in that three decade era, as well as having one of the best pitching coaches in baseball history along his side the entire time. It has little to do with X’s and O’s.

Pujols or not Pujols. That is the question.

by fourstick on Nov 17, 2011 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

But, he has a law degree!

JD ftw!

"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Nov 24, 2011 11:45 PM EST up reply actions  

What's your take on Mayberry? Didn't see that one coming? I suspect that he was tight with Mike. . .

. .. when they played together.

An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.

HL Mencken

by akaitori on Dec 2, 2011 11:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I feel like I've been run over by a wall of text

Forgive me, but you seem to change your position several times throughout the write-up. I’m confused where you stand. Do you like Matheny? Do you think he’s the wrong coach? I’m a little slow sometimes, but it’s not clear to me.

I say give the coaching set-up a chance. Oh, and I liked how you talked about how the Xs and Os matter more in short series, not the long season. If we make it to the playoffs next year, I’ll be pretty content.

by JWO on Nov 19, 2011 9:34 PM EST reply actions  

Matheny Knows Baseball

He played major league ball for quite a while, and as a catcher he is familiar with handling a pitching staff. If he bothered to keep his eyes open and thought about what was happening during all of the games he was a player, I can’t believe there is that much he needs to learn to be a manager.

by tarakas on Nov 21, 2011 3:15 PM EST reply actions  

3 Nights in August

3 Nights in August have some interesting stuff on Matheny and how he was as a player. Obsessive about improving in his defensive and offensive game. He was a student of the game as well as a leader. LaRussa is the same way, obsessive in study in the game, and one component in great managing. Also Rasmus trade was smart and was needed. Rasmus is way overrated and his numbers show that. He’s a career .251 hitter and batted .173 after he left STL! Yes he has upside potential, but his numbers are going in the wrong direction.

I am amazed with the decision to hire Matheny with no managerial experience, but the Cardinals club house knows what they’re doing. Only time will tell.

by tho0505 on Nov 29, 2011 7:29 PM EST reply actions  

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