The Lay of the Land
It's a new year, meaning there are approximately six weeks from now until Pitchers and Catchers Report Day. The season isn't exactly just around the corner yet, by any means, but it's creeping closer by the day. With that in mind, I say it's high time we stop looking back at the season now past and get to looking at the year we're heading into. Are you with me?
The thing is, pretty much everyone here is at least borderline obsessive about this baseball team, so there really isn't a whole lot I can tell you about the Cardinals' recent maneuverings you don't already know. Such is the downside of writing for people who already omnivorously devour any and all information regarding the subject at hand.
On the other hand, I'm sure very few of us follow the other teams in major league baseball with the same fervor we devote to our own squad. Even the other teams in the division, while certainly important, don't really move the needle in quite the same way as the home team does. Sure, we all know what the other teams in the division have done this offseason, in that vague sort of way I could tell you about housing market trends. I know which direction things are headed, and I could spout off a useful fact or two, but to be honest, my knowledge is rather superficial, culled from listening to bits of people with vaguely British accents debate the economic recovery on NPR. It's the same thing with the NL Central teams. I know what each team has done, but at the same time it's fragmented and vague.
And so, with that in mind, I'm going to pass on writing about the St. Louis Cardinals today, and instead take a look at the teams we'll be seeing the most of in the opposing dugout. Before you can worry about winning a title, you need to win your division first. So let's take a look at what kind of hill El Birdos will be facing in trying to win said division, shall we?
Starting with the bastards that beat us last year, here we go.2010 Record: 91-71 (1st place)
Pythagorean Record: 92-70
Notable Comings: Dontrelle Willis LHP, Jeremy Hermida OF
Notable Goings: Arthur Rhodes LHP, Orlando Cabrera SS (remains unsigned; could be back)
Outlook: The Reds are a pretty good team. They won the division last season, and they look as if they could very well repeat again this season. They have a solid young core of talent (including the newly extended Jay Bruce), and Walt Jocketty did a nice job filling in the margins of the team last year.
All that being said, the Reds did overachieve in 2010, and I expect them to come back a bit in the coming season. They were right in line with their Pythagorean record, so there doesn't appear to be any wackiness going on with run distribution, but most of their roster hit their highest projections, and I don't expect that to happen again.
Scott Rolen will be another year older, and his career renaissance following his shoulder woes can't last forever. The loss of Arthur Rhodes may hurt more than you think, seeing as Rhodes was one of the most effective relievers in the majors last year.
On the upside, Aroldis Chapman will likely be in the big leagues the whole season, which could be very bad news for the rest of the NL Central. (Or, he could blow out his arm as many of us believe will happen. Time will tell.) Mike Leake will have an entire season under his belt. Joey Votto, whether he's an annual MVP candidate or not, is a beast in the middle of the Cincinnati lineup. Personally, I think Drew Stubbs is going to be a quality player for the Reds for a long time to come.
On top of their quality big-league roster, the Reds still have plenty of quality in their minor league system. The aforementioned Chapman is the jewel of the system, but players like Yonder Alonso and Devin Mesoraco offer future upside as well. Oddly enough, the Reds' seem to have a bunch of big-bat, limited-position guys at the moment in the upper ranges of the minors.
Bottom line, the Reds are a very good team. They'll likely fall back a bit in 2011 thanks to some players not hitting their most positive projections, but Chapman alone could offset a fair amount of that. I think the Cardinals are a little bit better team, but not much. Then again, this is a team which just signed Dontrelle Willis, so, um, whatever.
2010 Record: 77-85 (3rd place)
Pythagorean Record: 76-86
Notable Comings: Zack Greinke RHP, Shaun Marcum RHP, Takashi Saito RHP, Yuniesky Betancourt SS
Notable Goings: Alcides Escobar SS, Lorenzo Cain OF, Carlos Villanueva RHP
Outlook: Can I tell you how terrified I am of the Milwaukee Brewers this year? The last few seasons we've seen them score runs in big bunches, but struggle to hold the opposition down. They made a nice run with CC Sabathia a couple years back, but for the most part it's been the same old story for the Brew Crew in recent years. Sure, they're going to knock your pitchers around, but they can't stop you from doing the same.
Now, though, look at that rotation. Zack Greinke, Yovani Gallardo, Shaun Marcum, and Randy Wolf. I don't care who exactly they throw out there as a fifth starter, there's no way in hell I want to see that rotation for eighteen games a season. In fact, if I'm completely honest with myself, I think that rotation may be better than the four the Cardinals can field. I could be wrong and just playing Chicken Little, but damn. That's intimidating.
Their bullpen may be pretty solid as well. John Axford looked like an emerging force at times last season, and the ageless Takashi Saito should lend a steadying hand setting up. Possibly worst of all, the Cardinals will no longer have the luxury of Carlos Villanueva pissing our players off and sending them into Super Saiyan mode.
The Brewer offense is as intimidating as ever, with Prince Fielder, Rickie Weeks, and Ryan Braun all offer tremendous production (though Braun did have an off year in terms of power in 2010), and nighttime sunglass/Camaro enthusiast Corey Hart turned in a monster performance last year. I don't expect him to be as good in 2011 as he was in 2010, but I also wouldn't bet against him continuing his Jayson Werth impression.
I'm just going to come out and say it. Get it over with as quickly as possible.
I think the Brewers may be the best team in the division.
Ugh, I know. Jesus, that's nasty. I can taste it in the back of my throat. And it isn't as if I think they're markedly better than the rest. But still, I look at that rotation, and I look at that offense, and I have to admit to being more than a little bit afraid of the boys from the good land. How many games could the Brewers legitimately improve from 2010? I don't know exactly, but when you replace Chris Narveson with Zack Greinke, that's a pretty good upgrade.
2010 Record: 75-87 (5th place)
Pythagorean Record: 73-89
Notable Comings: Kerry Wood RHP, Carlos Pena 1B
Notable Goings: None
Outlook: Let's face it: the Cubs are kind of a mess. They were a bad team in 2010, and they aren't going to be a whole lot better in 2011. If it were a different team with a different roster, you might think of them as a team in transition, a rebuilding team even. When you look at where the money actually goes for the Cubs, though, they just don't have the look of a transitional team. Case in point: the signing of Carlos Pena. I actually think Pena is a pretty good pickup for the Northsiders, given the one-year length of the deal, but is he a stopgap? Is he auditioning for a future role? It just seems like too many things are in flux for Chicago right now.
There is some hope in the youth here; Tyler Colvin certainly showed some surprising pop in his rookie season. Geovany Soto had a nice bounceback campaign, and Starling Castro came to the big leagues and hit the ground running. He didn't look like the future gold glover he was advertised as, at least not to me, but small sample sizes and all that.
Aramis Ramirez is still the biggest bat here, but he's moving into decline territory. Alfonso Soriano fell off a cliff, and I'm not sure he's coming back. The pitching is weak, with Carlos Zambrano still the ace of this staff. He's still solid, but between the mileage on his arm and the insanity, Big Z is always a risk to do as much harm as good.
The Cubbies have been pushing to try and deal for Matt Garza; a move for someone like that would certainly improve their chances. Even so, I still they would be a bit short. It would, however, make the NL Central overall dynamic verrry interesting, as suddenly you would have some of the most terrifying pitching in all of baseball concentrated in the low-rent district.
The Cubs are probably not going to compete this season. Their bullpen will be very good, with Kerry Wood rejoining Carlos Marmol at the back end. Sean Marshall will be an interesting wildcard; the decision to either keep him in relief or try him once again in the rotation should make for plenty of blog fodder. Overall, though, this is a team with too many declining players and not enough power. The NL Central will be much improved in 2011, methinks; the Cubs, not so much.
2010 Record: 76-86 (4th place)
Pythagorean Record: 68-94
Notable Comings: Bill Hall UTI, Clint Barmes SS/2B
Notable Goings: Matt Lindstrom RHP, Hope
Outlook: Remember just above this, when I said the Cubs were kind of a mess? Well, remove the kind of, and you've got the Houston Astros. Honestly, I find myself continually aghast at just how poorly this franchise has been handled the past several years. Think back to 2004 and that brilliant, all-time great NLCS series. Honestly, I think I enjoyed the 2004 NLCS more than any other postseason series I've ever seen (possible exception: 2001 NLDS vs. Arizona), and that includes the World Series we actually won. Now look at where the Astros are. They outperformed their Pythagorean record by a freakish eight games, and that still didn't get them even close to .500. This is a bad team, and the people running it should be ashamed of themselves for robbing Houston fans of their baseball team.
Honestly, I don't really know where to start with the 'Stros. The combination of J.A. Happ and Wandy Rodriguez is a pretty good place to begin building from, I suppose. The unaccountable brilliance of Brett Myers last season led Houston to sign him to an extension, but I just can't believe a rational, sane universe could possibly allow that douchebag to have another good year. Beyond Myers, names like Bud Norris and Felipe Paulino start cropping up. 'Nuff said.
I will say this: I would have gladly taken Matt Lindstrom off the Astros' hands any time they liked. Brandon Lyon, um, not so much.
Michael Bourn established himself as a better player than a lot of us thought in 2010, though that isn't exactly high praise. Hunter Pence has gone the other way in a big hurry, after looking so promising early in his career. Chris Johnson, the young third baseman, turned in a solid campaign, but he's going to have to prove he can make it with an almost nonexistent walk rate before I buy into him being a big-league player.
Honestly, the most interesting storyline surrounding Houston this year for me will be what kind of performance we see from Brett Wallace. I still believe he can find a way to be successful, probably in a very Daric Barton-ish sort of way.
Astros fans deserve better. Unfortunately, I'm not sure it's going to get much better any time soon.
2010 Record: 57-105
Pythagorean Record: 53-109
Notable Comings: Kevin Correia RHP, Scott Olson LHP
Notable Goings: Just Hope (Okay, Zach Duke too)
Outlook: A little earlier this offseason, my compatriot Dan had what I think was one of the best lines of the offseason. He said (paraphrasing), "The best way to make the Pirates an 85 win team would be to trade Andrew McCutcheon to an 83 win team and rename them the Pirates." I think that really pretty much says it all.
Honestly, I don't have much to say about the Pirates. Each year we look and think there's a glimmer of life in Pittsburgh, and each year they end up losing 95+ games in spite of the occasional flash of life. What would make anyone think this year should be different?
To be fair, the Pirates do have a couple of talented young players who could offer hope for the future. McCutcheon is fantastic, and Pedro Alvarez looks like the real deal. (He does not, however, look like a third baseman.) Neil Walker and Jose Tabata are both intriguing, though we've seen this story before. I'm going to have to see more from both before I get too excited about their futures. Unfortunately for Pittsburgh, Garrett Jones turned back into a pumpkin, Lastings Milledge is still a better rapper than a ballplayer (and he's an awful, awful rapper), and there isn't a whole lot of immediate help on the horizon.
Pittsburgh is a non-factor. Again. However, I fully expect them to take three of four from the Cardinals in a critical August series and ruin our season.
Again.
If you asked me right now to rate the teams in the NL Central, I believe it would go thusly:
1. St. Louis Cardinals
1A. Milwaukee Brewers
1B. Cincinnati Reds
4. Chicago Cubs
5. Grandview High School
6. Houston Astros
7. Pittsburgh Pirates
I think it's going to be a three-way dogfight this year, folks. It should be interesting. Or maybe just miserable. Tough to say in January. What do you think?
The Baron's Playlist for the 5th of January, 2011: Some Gems from '10
"The Suburbs" - the Arcade Fire
"Sprawl II (Mountains Beyond Mountains)" - the Arcade Fire
"Ten Cent Pistol" - the Black Keys
"Unknown Brother" - the Black Keys
"Little Lion Man" - Mumford and Sons
"White Blank Page" - Mumford and Sons
"Bloodbuzz Ohio" - the National
"Anyone's Ghost" - the National
"Satisfied" - Cee Lo Green
"Fuck You" - Cee Lo Green
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ugh
is having this douche on the front page necessary?
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....
by d-dee on Jan 5, 2011 12:13 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Is your face necessary
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
'fraid so
is your mother necessary?
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....
I dunno, why don't you ask RR
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
i figured RB knew he's awesome
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....
Brewers
Nice writeup, but saying the Brewers have a better rotation than the Cards is ridiculous. Even if you can make the argument that Grienke is on par with Waino, Carp is a good deal better than Gallardo and Garcia and Westbrook are head and shoulders better than Marcum and Wolf.
Not strictly true. But on any given day, on any given pitching match-up... maybe.
Brew Crew was a comedy team last year. Now i’m right back to hatin’ them all over again.
F’n 2008.
I think they stack up better than you might think
Greinke could be Waino’s equal. It’s not a slam dunk, but he was better than he seemed last year and none of our pitchers have done what he did in 2009. Gallardo is still very young. Garcia is still not a sure bet to hold up health-wise.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I trust marcum to be better than Carp
and I’d take Gallardo over Garcia. I think our only true advantages are in the 4 and 5 spots.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
And Wolf will probably inflate his stats with the four perfect games he throws against us.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
I'll take that bet
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 5, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
soft tossing lefties...
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Was it Marcum or Morrow who had that ridiculous 17 K game last year?
Anyway, I could easily see you being right about all those. I think it’s very, very close.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Morrow
Who was traded from the Mariners for Brandon League!
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Your one decision in the Mariners organization...
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Just remember, the #6 organization in baseball did it
so it must be right.
StanTheManFan
Contributes any way he can.
He's normally a nuclear physicist
Except when writing for this list.
by StanTheManFan on Jan 5, 2011 8:12 PM EST up reply actions
Wow. Really?
Marcum kind of came out of nowhere with his season last season. And he’s a flyball pitcher.
I’d probably take Gallardo over Garcia, too, as far as 2010 performance goes, but shouldn’t the rotations stack up like this:
Grienke = Wainwright
Gallardo < Carp
Marcum = Westbrook
Garcia > Wolf
Lohse = Narveson
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 5, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
i would take gallardo over carp this season
and especially beyond
easily
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
Beyond?
yes
This season? It’s a closer call IMHO.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 5, 2011 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
here's their 2010 stats
gallardo – 3.42 xFIP, 4.6 WAR
carpenter – 3.84 xFIP, 3.7 WAR
carpenter is 36, gallardo is 25. it would be insane to not swap carpenter for gallardo is given the chance. even if it were just for this year
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
FWIW, brWAR tells a different story
carp 3.0 vs YG 2.1 brWAR
Yovanni has yet to even have a half-season as good (by ERA+) as Carpenter’s worst year with the cardinals, and he’s never thrown over 185 innings in a season- carp had thrown that many innings by the middle of August last year, and CC’s ERA+ over his first ~184 innings was a sexy 136.
Obviously I’d trade Carp for YG in an instant, due to age and salary and years of team control, but in terms of raw performance to expect, if carp stays healthy, (and that’s a big “if”), I definitely take him over YG next year.
Not sure I've seen dumber baseball words: "Brendan Ryan became expendable after (Cardinals) acquired infielder Ryan Theriot." -Joe Posnanski
It's that "if" that scares the crap out of me.
All five of our starters, really.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
though now I want a Cardinals-branded top hat
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Is it better to think he might or be sure he won't?
Which puts the GOBs in our favor?
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Ob gob gob gob gob gob gob
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
just try and deflect their attention to something else
Man, that Zach Greinke sure is reliable and has an arm like an ox.
by Aranathor on Jan 5, 2011 4:19 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
brWAR isn't good for true talent level purposes
What does ZIPS say about the two, that’s really what we should be using rather than single season WAR.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
rWAR is stupid
it basically uses ERA and gallardo had a .340 BABIP
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
same concern with ERA+
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
rWAR adjusts for team defense though
Which is nice, and quality of opponents. But yeah, for predictive purposes fWAR trumps rWAR.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
are you saying
that rWAR completely corrects for that ridiculous BABIP?
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
do you have anything that proves that assertion?
Not sure I've seen dumber baseball words: "Brendan Ryan became expendable after (Cardinals) acquired infielder Ryan Theriot." -Joe Posnanski
linear weights or algorithms?
just a guess
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 8:20 PM EST up reply actions
FIP is better at predicting future ERA
than ERA or adjusted RA?
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
I mean it should be common sense
And we know that FIP is more predictive than ERA, and I doubt the blanket defense adjustment does much to help.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Jan 5, 2011 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
well, when carp outperforms yovanni, yet again, next year, by ERA
for the third year in a row, you can chalk it up to “luck”, again, for the 3rd year in a row, and consider yourself right. i mean, it’s common sense. No way that Carp could outperform his FIP six years in a row- that’s unlogical, or something, duh.
Except, he did it. For 6 years in a row, minus one game pitched in 2007. And he did it by well over 10% of expectations, on average, which is enough to blow a hole in pretty much any general theory.
A good engineer would see this, and go, “hmmm- i don’t understand these results- I should investigate them”. A shitty engineer would take this, and throw out a SSS statement, or act confused, or pretend they don’t mean anything.
Not sure I've seen dumber baseball words: "Brendan Ryan became expendable after (Cardinals) acquired infielder Ryan Theriot." -Joe Posnanski
...
You and I both know that just because a player has outperformed his FIP in the past doesn’t mean he has a skill in that area. And even if he does, the “true” skill likely isn’t as large as the observed one.
Besides, I was talking in a general sense. Single season FIP WAR is more predictive than single season RA WAR – on average of course.
ZIPS projects Carpenter slightly better than Gallardo (120 ERA + to 117 ERA+), but that includes the effects of projected team defense. The Brewers are projected to be around the worst in the league and the Cardinals are projected a little below average.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Jan 6, 2011 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
It was his third startight season above a 109 ERA+.
In the AL East, at that. Not really out of nowhere.
Carps going to be 36 and we’re not in an age where players get better in their mid to late 30’s anymore.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Sometimes
pitchers can be the exception. Not always, but sometimes.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 5, 2011 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
I mean... he's already clearly hit his peak. He's not going to hit it again
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Tell that to a 34 year old Curt Schilling:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/schilcu01.shtml
Look at the jump he made from 2000 to 2001, and then sustained. There are other examples, but this is the one I thought of off of the top of my head
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Yeah, maybe
Did he have an injury in his crappy years that explained why his numbers declined?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Look at the stats
they weren’t crappy years. He went from an above average/borderline all-star-type pitcher to a perennial Cy Candidate. And he was throwing 200 odd innings the whole time, so I don’t think it’s injury.
He attributed it to Randy Johnson teaching him how to pitch when they were in ARI together.
Jaime Moyer was another example of a pitcher that kind of sluffed around until he found his way in his 30s. Pitching is much harder to project than hitting.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Greg Maddux & Nolan Ryan
come to mind.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 5, 2011 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
and they pitched a for long time
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 5, 2011 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
No VEP's point was that All-World pitchers have different career arcs than other pitchers
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Jim Katt
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 5, 2011 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
Kaat
was at his peak one of the best in the game, like Carpenter. He was also blessed with great health, unlike Carp. Kaat had his last good year at age 36. But he pitched another 892 innings after that with a 92 ERA+. A pretty remarkable career, all in all.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
a guy can also pitch for a long time without being an All-World Pitcher.
I might be missing the point, though.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 5, 2011 7:50 PM EST up reply actions
I'm saying that you can't bring up guys like Maddux and Ryan as reasonable examples of players who pitched great into their 40's
Because those guys are once in a lifetime pitchers. Carp’s good, but it’s very unlikely he’ll be anywhere near as good as those guys were.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
I wasn't making the point
about pitching great into their 40’s. I was making a point that pitchers are more likely to play that long than position players. The guys I mentioned pitched that long because they were outstanding, yes, but age wasn’t a risk factor in the same way it would be for an every day player. I wouldn’t calculate the age factor the same way I would for a position player.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 5, 2011 8:07 PM EST up reply actions
Okay, well my point still stands
Maddux and Ryan were some of the best pitchers of all time – thus they were able to last longer.
I think if you did a systematic study you’ll find that most pitchers age very heavily.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
I'll take your word for it
at the moment because I can’t find any hard data to prove or disprove it yet, but I’ve been looking. On the surface, I’m not sure I agree that pitchers age more heavily than other players. Help me out here if you can.
So far, all I’m finding is data concerning premier pitchers, but that’s not really what I’m talking about. Obviously, the better players last longer because they’re better players. Somebody will still have a use for them at a later age. But pitching is always at a premium. Because of that, it’s not that unusual for the oldest guys on a team to be pitchers (& 1stBmen), even if they’re just so-so pitchers. They can stretch out a career a little longer than position players (in general) after their peak years…especially if they’re left handed.
Maybe a guy like Charlie Hough is a good example to use. He pitched for 24 or 25 seasons, well into his 40’s. In his last 7 seasons he had only 1 that was .500 and pitched 4 more seasons after that and finished his career with a .500% exactly.
I guess what I’m trying to say (and maybe not very well) is that if somebody is going to play MLB long after the age of 35, more than likely it will be a pitcher, more so today than years past because nowadays all you ask from them is 5 or 6 “quality” innings every 5 days.
Based on that view, I look at Carp’s age differently than a position player…except maybe 1st base position.
If I were to give a 3 year deal to either Carp or Berkman I think I’d pick Carp, all things considered.
But I’ve been wrong before.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 6, 2011 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
Well, I think the comparison should be
premier pitchers to premier hitters—which set falls off the wagon first? To me, it really seems like the pitchers outlast the hitters, though you do have guys like Rickey Henderson and Julio Franco, certainly.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
That's kind of opposite
of my point. I’m focusing on the average player instead of the premier player, saying that pitchers are less of a risk due to age than position players and, in general, I’d be more concerned about the age of a position player than I would a pitcher.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 6, 2011 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
Then, to just get a rule of thumb
it might be worth it to just go to 1990 or something, find 10 pitchers and 10 hitters with near-average stats, and see what the average retirement age of those guys was
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
I was trying to find something like that
but I’m not as good at that as most of you here are.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 6, 2011 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
I think his age 34 season was the exception
of course, Carp may not be human, so lightening may strike twice.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
The tattoos are actually magic spells.
They are runes which keep his demonic nature from exploding and hurting the ones he loves.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
stop casting the anime, matty
at least wait for the regular season
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
i for one would welcome a fanshot anime story about Carps ink
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
It'd be called
Great Pitcher Tattoo Legend Kurizu Kapenta!!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
well what are you waiting for? start writing!
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
Eh, deceiving, IMHO
Let’s look at Marcum’s FIP / xFIP:
2007: 4.93 / 4.42
2008: 4.46 / 4.24
2009: INJURED
2010: 3.74 / 3.90
He’s a solid pitcher to be sure (and he’s a Missouri State alum!), but I would expect some regression to the mean, and I think that the league switch is a bit overblown, since he’s moving to a hitter’s park.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 5, 2011 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
Toronto was more of a hitter's park
And he’s facing worse hitters
I don’t see how you can argue that he’s likely to put up equal or better numbers
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Marcum is older than I thought
for some reason I thought he was ~ 25.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
You would think he would face worse hitters. . .
but last season Marcum only faced the Yankees once (1 start, 6 IP, 5 ER), the Red Sox 5 times (1-3, 5.45 ERA), and the Rays 4 times (0-2, 5.55 ERA). That’s worse than the league ERA (heck, worse than the RA) against each of those teamsaverage against the three top offenses in the AL last year.
From looking at this opponents’ splits, it looks like he fattened up on the 2nd worst offense in the AL last year: (3-0 with a 1.13 ERA vs the Orioles in 4 starts). He also got 3 starts against the Royals (10th in AL in offense) and A’s (11th in AL in offense) and dominated them, too. So yes, he will benefit from facing weaker competition, but his breakout 2010 looks to the naked eye to have been a product of a steady diet of facing moribund offenses.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 5, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
Miller Park
You could call it a HR hitters park which would not favor Marcum, but overall fairly neutral.
Marcum is better than Westbrook, and so is Garcia for that matter
Whether any of them stay healthy is another question though…
Not afraid to nitpick
Garcia's got to have huge error bars
I’m not 100% sure how I’d be regressing him
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
I think Garcia is a good bet to improve on his peripherals
another year away from Tommy John and with a full successful MLB season under his belt. His stuff is undeniable, he’s clearly not doing it with smoke and mirrors, and we saw what he looked like when he tightened up his control (I’m thinking about that magical game against the Giants)
Fire John Mozeliak
No one was projecting him as an ace when he was in the minors, though
And that’s certainly how he looked after last year. Also, I wouldn’t be surprised by a sophomore slump as teams develop a book on him.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
possibly
but he’s not an easy read either. he has an extensive arsenal of breaking stuff and he’s left-handed. As for projection, I think people were just mostly being cautious about the surgery. He was under-hyped to be sure. Look at how gaga people are going for guys like Mike Minor who has a similar profile. I think he’d be a top 10 prospect if he’d had a season of equivalent success in the minors.
Fire John Mozeliak
Gallardo is better than Carp, simply due to age and injury risk
And Marcum is much better than Westbrook. He has a career 3.85 ERA in the AL East.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
but maybe not today
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 5, 2011 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
Neither of them have pitched in months, so it'd be interesting.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Jan 5, 2011 7:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
funny
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 5, 2011 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
Carpenter at his best was really close to Grienke's 2009
Fewer strikeouts, perhaps. But Carp is a less strikeout-dependent pitcher, anyway
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Carpenter never put up as good DIPS numbers as Greinke in 09
For him to be as good, he has to have a low BABIP.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
eh
he’s kept his BABIP ~ the 280s every year he’s been here. That’s about long enough to consider that his baseline. Maybe not going forward, but for the last seven years.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Maybe
But a lot of that is good defense, and some more of that is still luck.
People really underestimate how little control pitchers have over their BABIP’s.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
and we all know the good D is gone baby gone now, so look for all their #'s to go up up & away
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
...
first off, i want to say thanks to those thinking of me in these hard last few days. it’s still shocking, even a couple days later. this is the first time i’ve had a good friend die, and while i’m trying the best i can, it’s still hard.
as for baseball… i think it will be a tough race through the whole season between the reds, brewers, and cards. if you had to tell me what order i think those three might be in at the end of the season, i’d say reds, cards, brewers.
i actually know a couple songs on the playlist today, which is unusual. little lion man rocks, and the last song is one that some baseball players at my college blare all the time. i find it funny now.
EH #2
That picture is creepily reminiscent of Edmonds.
It’s the “did you just see what I did??? It was awesome!!!” face.
Anyway, my gut feeling right now is that the Brewers will be better than the Reds. I don’t know if there is any actual evidence to support that, it is just a feeling. Since a lot of the Reds’ success last year hinged on “overperformance” or whatever you want to call it, I think it’s a little early to expect that kind of production from their lineup until they repeat it. The Brewers have had consistently great offense for years now, and I don’t see why that should not continue. Their hitters aren’t exactly that old yet. Greinke and Marcum are two very good starting pitchers to add. I think they’re very scary.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
RB, I'm sorry
I know how much it sucks to write an article and ten minutes after you publish it, something happens that makes all of your work to go un-discussed.. but…
OMG…
The Cardinals have wasted little time addressing their most pressing New Year’s resolution: tying up Albert Pujols.
Negotiations between the club and Pujols’ agent, Dan Lozano, resumed this week and have taken on a “positive” tone, according to several sources familiar with the process.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
it was about freakin time
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....
they had to take their birth-of-Jesus-time
lest they offend the mang
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
yes, baby jesus is important to the mang
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....
Not to mention
I think they are making some sort of small announcement concerning the Hall of Fame today, that might derail the conversation somewhat.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
More like Hall of LAME
high five!
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Jan 5, 2011 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yes please
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
by gdm426 on Jan 6, 2011 12:12 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sure!
It’s not my money.
As long as it doesn’t cost me more to watch the games on TV, I’m for it, just to see Mang in Cardinal red till he retires. Not many players play an entire career with one team any more. I’d like to see Albert do it.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 6, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
F. Paulino was traded for C. Barmes
Who do the ’stros have going as their 5th man now?
I thought I told you to trim those sideburns!
20 year old Jordan Lyles would be my guess
by CodyG on Jan 5, 2011 9:18 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Regarding the Reds, I just have to say LOL Bronson Arroyo.
But seriously, his BABIP has to regress, right? How long can he continue to outperform his FIP by so much?
he sold his soul for rock n roll
but the devil tricked him and gave him bizarre BABIP powers instead
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
He's still interested in starting up that band with Johnny Damon.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I think they are going to put Spiezio on bass
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
his contract isn't as bad as we first thought
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 5, 2011 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't sign that guy
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
It's still bad though
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Jan 5, 2011 10:49 PM EST up reply actions
They basically replaced a 1/13
with a 3/30 (using npv) in order to save $6.5M in 2011. Now they failed to sign Rhodes and they supposedly have some millions to spare. They better spend that, or the extension really will be pointless.
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
I totally agree that Rhodes departure will be missed
he’s quietly been a top tier relief talent. Chapman will probably offset this but if I were a Reds fan (hell no!) I would have much rather had both of them in the ’pen. their starting pitching is just not very impressive though.
now the Brewers on the other hand have a starting rotation that could possibly rival the Cardinals given the upside of Greinke and Gallardo. I’m not going to be that they will be as good as they can be, but the possibility is there that there rotation could be better than the Cards. they stack up very well against the Cardinals team.
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 1:01 PM EST reply actions
I think the GOB will now make sure Bret Myers is the Cy Young for '11
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 1:06 PM EST reply actions
and they also have Cy Norris and Wand man
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
When I saw the title of the main post....
I thought it was going to be about mysterui’s mom.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 5, 2011 1:11 PM EST reply actions 21 recs
I see this as the peak of the meme
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
I hate you all
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Jan 5, 2011 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
your mom loves us
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....
some a lot more than others
i’m lookin at you matty
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
brilliant
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 5, 2011 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
40, 41, 43, 50, 58, 60
But there were a few more years where only Veterans Committee appointees were inducted.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Most recently 1996.
StanTheManFan
Contributes any way he can.
He's normally a nuclear physicist
Except when writing for this list.
by StanTheManFan on Jan 5, 2011 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
If I ever get a job out here, I might be up for that
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
what are you looking to do again?
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
just like mother.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Jan 5, 2011 1:20 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah basically
Nothing long-term, just a decent paid, resume-boosting job
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
get your own ideas college boy!
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
I'm pulling for Grandview this year, methinks.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
i laughed when i read that, there's a grandview out here just north of down town cbus
and they have a terrible school
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
3 Things
1. The apt typo “Starling Castro” made me laugh in light of the recent bird kills in Arkansas and Louisiana
2. I also enjoyed that you abbreviated Utility as “UTI,” classifying Bill Hall as a Urinary Tract Infection
3. I knew 3 of the artists on the playlist.
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
This is my first %100 recognition RB playlist
in fact, I own all those albums!
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
affirmative...
what a great list!!
"I don't like to sound egotistical, but every time I stepped up to the plate with a bat in my hands, I couldn't help but feel sorry for the pitcher." Rogers hornsby.
i knew all but the mumford & sons
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
little lion man
has gotten a lot of popularity – it’s got a sweet banjo riff playing throughout
Your team is incompetently run by baseball equivalent of the captain from the Caine Mutiny -DiscoJer
figures my brother knew all about them
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
I'm picturing a starling with a castro uniform
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
alternative death metal playlist
Defeated Sanity
Spawn of Possession
Carcass
do not listen to these bands.
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 1:50 PM EST reply actions
your name compels me to take this comment seriously.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
heavy metal has been around a while
returns at opportune moments
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
meant the username
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 6, 2011 1:26 AM EST up reply actions
I'm especially fond of heartwork and swansong
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
aye
me too, though I may like Necroticism more than Swansong depending on which I’m listening to. Was cool to catch them live a couple years ago or whenever it was.
I really wish I could have made it to that show
I always felt that Swansong was underrated. I’ll give necrotism another spin though.
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
swansong
is just so different compared to the rest of their albums, by the time it came out most of their early fan base didn’t care for it. It was too melodic and “commercial”. God damn though the solos rule, the lyrics are superb, and its just damn good. I personally can’t deny it.
I still remember the local college radio station playing their promo of it and me rushing to grab a tape so I could tape it and listen to it before it came out. An old band I was in used to cover Death Certificate from Heartwork, twas fun.
that's what I love about it
the lyrics are actually top notch, ridiculous solos, and it just sounds like it could be from almost any era of metal in a way, it’s classic. it’s funny that after this bill steer formed a groove rock band.
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 8:14 PM EST up reply actions
What time are the HOF announcements?
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
they should have hasselhoff announce it
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
in about two minutes
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
yaayyyyy!!!!
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
2011 Hall of Fame ROBERTO ALOMAR, BERT BLYLEVEN ELECTED
bbwaa.com
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
I will not format this.
Name Votes Pct.
Roberto Alomar 523 90.0%
Bert Blyleven 463 79.7%
Barry Larkin 361 62.1%
Jack Morris 311 53.5%
Lee Smith 263 45.3%
Jeff Bagwell 242 41.7%
Tim Raines 218 37.5%
Edgar Martinez 191 32.9%
Alan Trammell 141 24.3%
Larry Walker 118 20.3%
Mark McGwire 115 19.8%
Fred McGriff 104 17.9%
Dave Parker 89 15.3%
Don Mattingly 79 13.6%
Dale Murphy 73 12.6%
Rafael Palmeiro 64 11.0%
Juan Gonzalez 30 5.2%
Harold Baines 28 4.8%
John Franco 27 4.6%
Kevin Brown 12 2.1%
Tino Martinez 6 1.0%
Marquis Grissom 4 0.7%
Al Leiter 4 0.7%
John Olerud 4 0.7%
B.J. Surhoff 2 0.3%
Bret Boone 1 0.2%
Benito Santiago 1 0.2%
Carlos Baerga 0 0.0%
Lenny Harris 0 0.0%
Bobby Higginson 0 0.0%
Charles Johnson 0 0.0%
Raul Mondesi 0 0.0%
Kirk Rueter 0 0.0%
Note: 436 votes (75%) required for enshrinement. Induction July 24, 2011 in Cooperstown, N.Y.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Bernie Williams? Vinny Castilla?
No one who’s going to make it in.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 5, 2011 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
List:
2012:
Edgardo Alfonzo, Pedro Astacio, David Bell, Jeromy Burnitz, Vinny Castilla, Scott Erickson, Carl Everett, Jeff Fassero, Alex S. Gonzalez, Danny Graves, Rick Helling, Dustin Hermanson, Jose Hernandez, Brian Jordan, Matt Lawton, Javy Lopez, Bill Mueller, Terry Mulholland, Jeff Nelson, Phil Nevin, Brad Radke, Joe Randa, Tim Salmon, Ruben Sierra, Jose Vizcaino, Bernie Williams, Eric Young
Wow. That’s a weak class.
Is it March 31st yet?
Do they vote on Baseball HOF like they do Football?
I want to see the discussion for the 2013 class:
Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Craig Biggio, Curt Schilling, Sammy Sosa, Mike Piazza, Kenny Lofton, David Wells, Julio Franco, Shawn Green, Steve Finley, Roberto Hernandez, Jeff Cirillo, Jose Valentin, Reggie Sanders, Jeff Conine, Jose Mesa, Royce Clayton, Bob Wickman, Ryan Klesko, Aaron Sele, Woody Williams, Rondell White, Mike Lieberthal, Tony Batista, Mike Stanton, Sandy Alomar Jr., Damian Miller, Todd Walker
Is it March 31st yet?
Completely different process between the two HOFs
I think Biggio and Piazza will get in and the rest will wait.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 5, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
Ok, couldn't remember.
Still would love to see the debates those first seven players.
Is it March 31st yet?
Hopefully Larkin and Bagwell make it in next year...
I think Raines is deserving as well.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 5, 2011 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
Raines should get in no doubt
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
Bagwell not cracking 50% is absurd, really.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
They moved from tarring known steroid users...
to any power hitter from 1990 to 2008
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
just because there's no smoking gun doesn't mean he was clean
i don’t have a problem keeping him out
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
How do you feel about people using that as a reason to keep Albert out?
by spants on Jan 6, 2011 12:47 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
it's crap, he's been tested & tested & tested and he's clean
you can’t say that about Bagwell or any of the other players from the 90’s.
i base my thoughts on my reporter friend who was in a lot of clubhouses & talked to a lot of players & reporters who said Bagwell & Biggio weren’t clean. if he says it, i believe it, he’s the most honest person i’ve ever met. now, if i never heard that i would say he belongs in, but i still wouldn’t be upset about voters leaving them off their ballot.
here’s the thing, if they keep all PED users or suspected users out, fine. but if they let one in everyone should be in. i personally don’t think any PED users should be kept out. Bonds, Big Mac, Clemens, if you have HOF numbers you belong in the HOF. i don’t care what you injected or put in your body to get those numbers. hitting a round ball with a round bat & throwing a ball past a hitter is still the hardest thing to do in sports. if you got the numbers, you belong in.
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
They've already let PED users into the HoF.
That’s exactly the point. Anyone that used amphetamines is a PED user.
by spants on Jan 6, 2011 1:42 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
i know that, but they don't seem to know that
or simply want to ignore it & hope no one points it out
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
I'm sure there are steroid users already in the HoF
One of the HoF guys whose career ended from 197X-2004 was a steroid user. I have no idea which one, but it’s nearly impossible it wasn’t one of them.
I hate this evidence-free game of blind accusations.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
there's no doubt there is already PED users in
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
sure
and drunks, wife beaters and gamblers. What can you do? It’s an imperfect system. So put Pete Rose in already!
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 7, 2011 6:54 AM EST up reply actions
Uh, no.
Gambling on baseball gets to the very core of the game, by causing the validity of the competition into question.
Pete Rose gambled on baseball even though he knew what the consequences were. (There’s an open question, I suppose, as to whether Pete Rose had the mental capactiy to understand the consequences of his actions. If you’ve ever heard the man talk, he’s not exactly a rocket scientist.)
No way should Pete Rose get in the Hall of Fame.
/Kennesaw Mountain Landis
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 7, 2011 10:08 AM EST up reply actions
Didn't Ty Cobb clear his name...
and prove the gambling accusations were baseless?
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 7, 2011 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
Joe Jackson
didn’t take part in throwing any games, but he’s still banned.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 7, 2011 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
this is just my personal opinion.
Steroids are banned just as gambling is.
Both can cause the validity of the competition to be in question.
So why is Big Mac on the ballot and Rose isn’t?
The HOF is screwed up anyway.
Rose is no mental giant, that’s for sure, but I seriously doubt that he bet on his team to lose.
McGwire and Rose both tried to hide their sin but Rose got a lifetime ban. That stinks.
I can’t prove it but just the nature of Babe Ruth says he more than likely bet on his team to win, even if it was in some bar somewhere. He’s probably not the first or last to ever do that.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 7, 2011 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
albert never randomly gained 30 lbs over an off-season
the way bagwell did.
bagwell explained it as “i was going through a divorce, the previous year, so I lost weight, and then biggio made fun of me that year in ST, so after that, I started lifting weights, and gained muscle mass”.
But when a player starts “lifting weights” about the time that guys like McGwire and Bonds start hitting ginormous numbers of HR’s, and then still fails to even hit 500 HR’s in his career, he’s both suspect, and not really very elite when compared to other suspect guys.
It’s unfair, but imho it’s an acceptable perspective. Bagwell was really a pretty marginal candidate, based on length of career, and was never really a huge peak guy; he wouldn’t be embarrassing, like Jim Rice, but it will be a while before we really understand where he really fits in with other 1B/LF/DH sluggers in his generation. I think it is very reasonable to vote to wait a bit to decide, on cases like his.
Not sure I've seen dumber baseball words: "Brendan Ryan became expendable after (Cardinals) acquired infielder Ryan Theriot." -Joe Posnanski
you're totally neglecting that he wasn't just a power hitter
he was a 30/30 guy. There’s only one active 1B that’s even had a 20/20 season!
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
Bagwell compared to the last 3 1B elected to HOF by BBWAA
Bagwell compared to other 1B sluggers in his generation
That’s not exactly what I would call a marginal candidate
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
by albrtfn on Jan 6, 2011 4:06 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Bagwell had a higher and more sustained peak than all of those guys
besides one year by Tony Perez and McGwire’s 70 hr season
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
to be clear
I put quotes around “was going through a divorce, the previous year, so I lost weight, and then biggio made fun of me that year in ST, so after that, I started lifting weights, and gained muscle mass”
i screwed that up- wasn’t biggio, was Hampton. Actual quote was:
The heavy lifting all started in 1995. I was going through a divorce and I came to spring training, and I thought everything was good. Then I got to spring training and I’ll never forget it: Mike Hampton looked at me and said, ‘Dude, what’s wrong with you? You’re so skinny, you look like you’re on crack.’ I look back at the stats and they weren’t bad [21 homers, 87 RBIs and a .290 batting average in 114 games]. But I told myself, ‘I’m never going to have somebody say that to me again.’ I said, ‘I’m going to find a trainer and get strong.’
Not sure I've seen dumber baseball words: "Brendan Ryan became expendable after (Cardinals) acquired infielder Ryan Theriot." -Joe Posnanski
You are saying Bagwell wasn't elite?
Based on… home run totals? Wow.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Jan 6, 2011 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
Marginal?
Are you thinking about Buff Bagwell or something?
Jeff Bagwell is hardly a marginal Hall of Fame candidate.
by WizardofOz1982 on Jan 6, 2011 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
Jeff Fassero resembles that remark
Do you remember that spelling bee you won in the first grade? Rock? "R-O-K"?
who the hell are you?
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
I thought you were dead.
Or sold your computer to pay for Cam Newton.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Jan 5, 2011 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Since you gave me a "Hook 'Em Horns" last year,
I’ll give you a Roll Ducks Roll! in return. LOL
That said, I think that au beats Oregon and fairly handily.
by RollBirdsRoll on Jan 5, 2011 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
It's going to be a game of atrocious defense
And I think Fairley and company will be less atrocious. They don’t have to try to stop Newton.
Not afraid to nitpick
I agree. aub's defense is less worse.
Still, Oregon’s fast offense should shred au’s secondary, which is awful.
If you’re a betting man, take the over.
by RollBirdsRoll on Jan 5, 2011 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
Touche
I think it’s bullshit when Auburn or Alabama fans get all pissy when fans of the other team don’t root for their team. Hell yeah I rooted for Texas last year, and I rooted for Michigan State this year! Well, until it was apparent that Alabama was going to win in a rout, at which point I wanted to see a 100-point game.
And I think it’s a very close game. Hopefully my team pulls it out, but I’m worried. I can tell you this, if we get down 24 early like we were against Alabama, we aren’t coming back.
Do you remember that spelling bee you won in the first grade? Rock? "R-O-K"?
Oh, no doubt. All of my aubie friends know
that I hope Oregon violates auburn on a grand scale for the world to see, and they’d all think I was ill if otherwise, just like they all pulled for the Horns last season. It’s part of the fun of the rivalry.
But realistically, I think Auburn’s got more defense than Oregon, (less worse) which will ultimately be the difference in the game.
If I was betting I’d still take the over. LOL
by RollBirdsRoll on Jan 5, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
Oregon's D is highly underrated
they are better than you southern boys think. are they as good as Auburns? heck no, but they ain’t a pushover. Mehil is probably their best & most known player on D. if he has a bad game the Ducks will be in trouble
everyone thinks it will be a high scoring game, but really it’s a lot more complex than than. if Oregon stops Cam & their RB, Auburn doesn’t stand a chance at winning. while Auburn has to worry about stopping a lot more than Oregon’s James & Thomas. I think if Auburn’s D stops Oregon’s O, it’s an easy win for Auburn. but if Oregon can contain Cam & Auburn can’t stop Thomas & James, Oregon wins easily
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
Yeah
Except the issue comes about that whole “stopping Cam” part. He’s legitimately big, he’s legitimately fast, and he’s a legitimate passer. So yeah, good luck. That guy can only stop himself in college.
Not afraid to nitpick
Yep
He’ll get you one way or the other
Do you remember that spelling bee you won in the first grade? Rock? "R-O-K"?
by jd is legend on Jan 6, 2011 12:58 AM EST up reply actions
Man I wish
Don’t have that kind of cash. Right after the SECCG tickets in the upper deck were like $600 a piece. Before StubHub closed the event, those tickets were going for around $2000 a piece! Face was $300 so if I had season tickets or knew someone who did and wasn’t going, I might have tried to do that. I just couldn’t afford it.
Do you remember that spelling bee you won in the first grade? Rock? "R-O-K"?
i don't know, Bamma stopped him for one half
all Oregon has to do is score 50 in a half & as long as they stop Cam for just one they’ll win.
again, easier said than done. trust me i get it. Cam’s a beast & no one has stopped him for an entire game this season. i don’t think Oregon can do it, but i do think they have a better chance at it than everyone is giving them
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
All this NCAA stuff is bullshit
Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
at first
i thought this said NAACP and i was like jeez dude
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
I mean, COLORED people?!
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Now you're sounding like your mother.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
by RiverRat on Jan 5, 2011 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Are you crazy?!?
That class has Jeff Fassero and Dustin Hermanson!!!
by BTown Birds fan on Jan 5, 2011 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
2003 felt like 10 years all by itself
for both Fassero and Hermanson.
by BTown Birds fan on Jan 5, 2011 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
Carl Everett gets into the crazy hall of fame, though
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
i had no idea burnitz quit
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
i don't have a problem with it, he's a douchebag, i've never been a fan
i feel the same about Robbie, big time dbag, i don’t have a problem making him sweat
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
As competitors?
Nonsense. It’s not about how they were in their personal lives. The character clause is about how they were as professionals. I understand that Alomar spit in an ump’s face and that’s why he had to wait a year, but I’ve never heard anything bad about Larkin.
but the voters take the off the field stuff into account, not just on the field
i’m not saying it’s right, but they do it.
i wasn’t a fan of Robbie before he spit in Hirschbeck’s face. Larkin has a long rep of being a jerk out here. i know the HOF is full of jerks & a player shouldn’t really have to wait because he was one. but i still won’t lose any sleep over those two waiting a year or two to get in. they both belong though and probably should be first ballot HOF’ers
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
I agree 100%
that off the field actions or antics shouldn’t be a factor in HOF voting, but I believe that it is. I believe that there is no way Pete Rose should be left out of the HOF….period. Nor will I ever believe that Babe Ruth never plunked down a bet on a baseball game.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 6, 2011 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
Well,
since nobody liked him and he may be the biggest dick to ever play the game, I assume he got in purely on his numbers, which is how it should be, and I agree that he should be in.
However…..that was then and this is now. I wouldn’t be in favor today of a player that played the game the way he did, spikes up and the like, intending to hurt people. There was no rule against it then that I know of, so it wasn’t cheating, just playing severe hardball, like the beanball.
So as afar as his personality or anything off the field didn’t seem to have any bearing on his induction.
Barry Bonds goes beyond that. He’s a dick who cheated. I wouldn’t keep him out for being a dick but I would for the steroids.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 6, 2011 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
Even though most of his contemporaries used steriods and other PEDs?
Interesting. The problem is that people split far too many hairs in order to vote for those they liked and keep out those they didn’t.
I just don't like players that used steriods
as a way to boost their performance. It’s just me.
And I’ve been through that whole conversation about past players and bennies and all that. I just have a dim view of cheaters.
It totally changes the meaning of “sport” and screws up the record books.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 6, 2011 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
Shit.
Cat stepped on my hand while I was typing.
Anyway, there are no pure records. Not every player has had upstanding morals and refused to cheat and there’s no real way to discern between those who did and those who didn’t.
by spants on Jan 6, 2011 7:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I get it.
that’s why I have to make my own determination about who I like and don’t like. It’s something that can’t be argued successfully.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 6, 2011 11:52 PM EST up reply actions
that's fair enough too.
If I did, Pete Rose and Ted Simmons would be in.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 7, 2011 12:24 AM EST up reply actions
Right!
and no Mark McGwire.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 7, 2011 12:26 AM EST up reply actions
and Ted Radcliffe also.
there are lots of players more deserving than Bonds and Mcgwire…IMO
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 7, 2011 12:41 AM EST up reply actions
what pisses me off about Bonds is
before he took one PED he was already a HOF’er. he should have won 3 MVP’s in a row in the early 90’s if not for the asshole writers stupidly giving it to Terry Pendleton just to screw him over.
i completely agree with you that there are asshole players, but there are also asshole writers with Neapolitan Complexes & envy because they can’t play the games they cover, who use their votes & pens to exact revenge on players they feel have wronged them.
players shouldn’t be punished for being jerks. much like writers shouldn’t punish them for not giving them an interview.
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
I couldn't agree more.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 7, 2011 6:10 AM EST up reply actions
Does someone with a Neopolitan complex wear these?

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
spell check said it was Napolean
f’ing spell check
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
I think that's a different word, isn't it?
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 7, 2011 7:11 PM EST up reply actions
it wouldn't be a VEB thread
without a GDM grammar fail
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
yep
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 7, 2011 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
No one voted for Rueter?
Hoyleton, Illinois should be outraged.
All 6 residents.
Is it March 31st yet?
and don't all of them live in his cabin?
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
I'm willing to bet the person who voted for Benito Santiago was somehow involved with the 2002 Cardinals
Do you remember that spelling bee you won in the first grade? Rock? "R-O-K"?
i was at that game
repressed childhood playoff game memories flooding back…
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
Benito Fucking Santiago.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
McGwire's vote goes down
give me a break.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 5, 2011 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
higher than Raffy, though!
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Which is lunacy
If all things are equal and McGwire/Raffy both used roids, Raffy’s counting numbers > McGwire’s numbers
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 5, 2011 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
also, John Olerud: Incredibly underrated.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Olerud
56.8 bWAR, six seasons 5+, two seasons 8+ (went directly from college to majors)
Jim Rice: 41.5 bWAR, four seasons 5+, best season 7.0
I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson
except for home runs
and McGwire’s peak was much better, and McGwire’s rate stats were qualitatively better.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
They should go down.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 5, 2011 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
somewhere, jon heyman is throwing a fit.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
I doubt that.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I'm curious why Kevin Brown is receiving more talk
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
what can Brown do for you?
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
Ack
I meant to say I was curious why he is not receiving more talk.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Better candidate than Morris
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
I agree
If I were a voter I’d have a lot of trouble narrowing it down to ten guys. I think there are lots of people who are clearly good enough and a few that are borderline. Just few slam dunk, super-elite guys.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Two reasons why he won't get the respect he deserves:
He played for a bunch of teams and he signed a big contract, then got hurt, making him a waste of money and erasing everyone’s memory of how great he was for every team he went to.
I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson
He wasn't even a waste of money
Look at his numbers after he signed the contract.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
I didn't even realize just how low his vote percentage was (must have seen the numbers wrong above)
So, is that it? Does he have to wait for the veterans committee now? Frickin’ shame.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Oh I don't think that he was a waste of money
He just got hurt and then Dreifort got hurt after he signed his big contract and the two kind of got lumped together about the follies of signing free agent pitchers to long deals. Nah, Brown had three season in L.A. that exceeded 5.0 bWAR.
Brown has the second highest career bWAR of any of the Hall-eligible (class of 2011) pitchers, much better than Morris. When I was doing my 25 for 25 teams around the majors, I’m pretty sure he made three of the rosters and was good enough for a couple more.
I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson
Alomar and Blyleven are elected
First MLBNet interview? Barry Larkin sitting poolside.
I love how they are pushing his candidacy more and more based on his position with the network.
Barry Larkin won the 1995 NL MVP because he held a team meeting
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 5, 2011 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
is that better or worse than Terry stealing it from Bonds?
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
So when Bill Hall came to Houston
the position caused him to have a UTI?
I want more... More baaaacon!
Jim Gaffigan
Or perhaps his position of choice
resulted in the UTI. Oops, wrong gender.
I want more... More baaaacon!
Jim Gaffigan
by blueinmemphis on Jan 5, 2011 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
so who the heck is going to sign Beltre?
and who else is left out there?
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 2:38 PM EST reply actions
Is MLBTR seriously getting ahead of itself
or am i just being reactionary cause it ain’t the way it used to be?
They seems to keep writing long stories on analysis of deals
Which makes it harder to find any actual new news.
there is no new news
they’re trying to create content so that they can maintain traffic during the worst time of the year to be running a MLB transaction blog
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
true
and like most things, once you actually look into it, it is pretty similar to how it always has been.
Seems they've been figured out
Not nearly as scary as they were earlier in the season.
GO HOT SPURS!
Chelsea have gotten old, quickly
Which is ironic considering they’ve sold all of their old plays during the summer. Also; Chelsea formerly of the ‘billion pound bench’ now have NO cavalry. Seriously Daniel Sturridge? ahahahaha.
I reckon Spurs are gonna fall apart as soon as the Champions League starts up again; distinct lack of depth is going to hurt them.
Wow, West Ham sucks.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
what's a good park, league adjusted pitcher stat?
like ERA+ only not ERA? is SIERA adjusted?
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
Isn't tRA+ adjusted?
There was a post on this last year.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
All the + stats are park adjusted, yeah
tRA just kinda fell out of use, though
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
I always forget if FIP is park adjusted
it’s not right?
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
It's not. K and BB rates aren't influenced hugely by park, but HR/FB is, which makes FIP a poor tool in comparing Felix Hernandez to CC Sabathia for the AL Cy Young
Which a lot of saberists were doing
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Here's the break down of the stats that
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
okay, statcorner
good to know
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
league adjusted?
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
i didn't know that either
what’s the story with SIERA? if you know. right now, i don’t feel like reading the 10,000 word BP post about it
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
SIERA is pretty similar to xFIP, maybe a bit better
A lot more complicated.
It’s a different type of stat than tRA.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
i know what it is
i just don’t know what adjustments, if any, it includes
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
Oh, I don't think it includes adjustments
I wouldn’t be surprised if it did though. Just control f the article.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
what I don't like about tRA is you have to wait til the seasons over
but all statcorner stats are like that
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 8:15 PM EST up reply actions
FanGraphs has updated tERA I think
But it isn’t as good. It doesn’t use component park factors.
tRA* is the real good stat.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
yeah
fangraphs kind of hides their tERA in the individual players sections…. you can’t view a leaderboard of it.
but yeah, I wish statcorner had the ability to show stats in-season
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 8:18 PM EST up reply actions
you can see leaders for it
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
hell yeah!
that must have been part of the update they did that introduced splits
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
also
that is Halladay’s worst stat
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
reply fail
wasn’t Bagwell on the ’roids? perhaps this is hurting his HOF votes
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 3:31 PM EST reply actions
There is no proof of it,
but Heyman and others are saying guilty by association.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I think he should be in and...
I don’t necessarily think this should be the standard, but if you had to bet your house on whether he used, which way would you go?
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
I really don't care if he did steroids or not but I think he probably did
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
It's completely impossible to know who did steroids and who didn't
I really wish we’d just admit that it was a problem, vote on the guys based on their numbers and what they ment to the game at the time, and move on.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
I'm just going with the logic
that since probably most players did it, and he was a muscular looking character, he probably did steroids. it will be interesting to see how players of this era are handled.
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
Eh.
Cody McKay and Alex Sánchez used steroids, too. While babe ruth was pretty flabby, you’d have to totally accuse him under these criteria if his career had overlapped with the ’90s.
There’s absolutely no way of knowing. And I agree with Joe Szymanski—I’d rather have 100 users get in than keep out 1 non-user due to the accusation of steroids.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Ah, wrong person I'm quoting. Ah well.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
way to go, you set off the Szymborski signal.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Rebecca
Rebecca De Mornay
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 5, 2011 10:41 PM EST up reply actions
yes this is the perfect stance
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 5, 2011 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
I was over the steroids witch hunt about 5 years ago.
I personally think that they were like greenies and somewhere around 75% – 90% of everyone in baseball were on them. I personally don’t give a rat’s ass about the steroid issue.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
If you've ever been jacked up on adderall...
…greenies are a significant performance enhancer.
Not afraid to nitpick
That's the point
Writers have no problem with performance enhancing greenies (a high percentage were apparently on them), but they crucify you for performance enhancing steroids (a high percentage were apparently on them).
Not afraid to nitpick
Barry Stanton's vote
Jack Morris, Edgar Martinez, Tino Martinez, Don Mattingly, B.J. Surhoff
I’m not sure he has a functional brain, let alone standards. I advocate replacing Stanton with a monkey that throws darts at the dartboard.
by Merry CRasmus on Jan 5, 2011 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
But he was a DH
and therefore offered no value to any baseball team ever. I mean did he ever play on a truly great baseball team?
he played on that 01 mariners team that won 116 games
i have a special place in my heart for edgar. i have no idea why.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
we need some kind of sarcasm indicator on VEB
But seriously; i have stared at the B-R page for that team for days and cannot comprehend how they won 116 games.
He was no True Yankee, that's for gosh darn sure.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Tino?
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I'm not saying they weren't PED's,
just that they were in every club house in the majors. Every single one.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
LOTS of ballplayers have ADD
Greenies have to have functioned as a PED as a result.
P.S. There has to be some link between ADD and the ability to hit.
Boog would have made that play.
Although you could make the ADD argument
And say that they helped players play up to their capabilities rather than above them.
Boog would have made that play.
i'd be Albert F'ing Pujols if there was a connection to ADD & hitting
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
That depends
What percentage of players in that era do you think did steroids?
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
Wasn't Heyman a writer at that time?
Did he report on the issue?
If not, isn’t he also guilty by association?
Is it March 31st yet?
did you read that article?
I’m actually not sure if it was Heyman now, but the gist of the argument was even if he didn’t do them, he didn’t stop anyone else from doing them. Apparently his standard is no one that played from 90 – 05 should get in because of roids. Nevermind that they’ve been in the game since the ’60’s.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I've got an allergic reaction to asshattery.
I let VEB read the articles for me.
Is it March 31st yet?
Under those circumstances, any ballplayer who played during Prohibition shouldn't be in the HOF either
because they didn’t stop Ruth from drinking.
Is it March 31st yet?
correct.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
also
lots of people used amphetamines
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
He drank goats blood
which had been outlawed by the Ulysses S Grant administration at the time.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
opium too
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
still legal in his day.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Always Real, Always Coca-Cola
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
But alcohol is a depressant, not a stimulant.
it’s more likely to impair rather than enhance performance.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 5, 2011 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
Still, during part of Ruth's career, it was illegal under federal law.
As were greenies during their era, and steroids in the 90’s.
Is it March 31st yet?
Understood,
but from an enhancement point of view it didn’t give an edge.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 5, 2011 7:42 PM EST up reply actions
Cocaine didn't give players an edge, either
but when it was taken away from them a lot of them fell off a cliff. Don’t underestimate the value of a psychological crutch.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
there are lots of things that can become
a psychological crutch. That’s a totally different issue. A guy can fall off a cliff if his dad dies or he gets a divorce and gets taken to the cleaners, etc.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 5, 2011 7:48 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think it's a different issue at all.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
of course,
but it’s apples and oranges.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 5, 2011 7:51 PM EST up reply actions
Not just psychological.
If he was physically dependent then taking it away would make him very sick.
I dunno
some people actually perform better while drunk
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 8:16 PM EST up reply actions
on the flip side
ask David Green
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 6, 2011 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
Of course, Heyman is an idiot.
StanTheManFan
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by StanTheManFan on Jan 5, 2011 8:26 PM EST up reply actions
There's not even a known credible allegation
it is literally because he hit a bunch of home runs in the late ’90s and for no other reason.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
plus he had muscles and played with other steriod users
OH SHIT, SO DID CAL RIPKEN JR AND TONY GWYNN*
*"Muscles" is relative.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
yeah but they didn't look completely ridiculous
my rule of thumb: did they look like a body builder?
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
dun dun dunnnnnn
Wally Joyner: Height: 6’ 2", Weight: 185 lb
Cal Ripken JR: Height 6’3", Weight: 200 lb
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by the way, I agree with you
I just like dumb steroid arguments.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Crawfish Boxes article..
…Jeff Bagwell is likely going to be denied the honor of being elected to the HOF on his first ballot because of the following evidence:
He played during the 1990s.
He hit homeruns during the 1990s.
Although well framed and “cut” as a younger player, he added a lot of muscle as he got older and worked out really, really hard—during the 1990s
When his arthritic shoulder prevented him from lifting weights, he lost his muscle mass.
Is it March 31st yet?
no player should be blocked from the hall of fame because of steroids
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
that is
assuming he even did them
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
I think Poz said it best
Something along the lines of “I’d rather let 100 guilty (of steroids) players in than leave 1 innocent players out”
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
this would be the just way to do it
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
i'd rather have bbwaa stripped of their voting privileges
they’re clearly not qualified, and deciding what to put in a history museum based on a popularity contest put on for journalists is offensively stupid
do it like every museum ever
hire a bunch of capable baseball historians, and tell them to put together the best and most informative baseball story they can manage
we’ll never have to listen to heyman’s “reasoning” again, while eliminating unnecessary induction rituals (veterans committee, bbwaa voting, etc.)
problem solved
by YesWeOquendo on Jan 5, 2011 9:55 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
the heck
there’s this rerun of this Canadian designer redoing Halladay’s wife’s suite. apparently they redid it for ballplayer partying and kids on charity trips.
so far she’s sticking to team colors, so no trainwreck yet…
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
as I'm unlikely to see this stadium, I'm liking the shots
oh, they’re meeting Doc now.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Brandy (that's Mrs. Doc) wanted Doc trivia and pitching grips to display on the walls, for the kids.
Doc wanted a masseuse.
he also approved a red kitchen and red chairs. foreshadowing?
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
i believe so
hey pitching grips!
…no. no, don’t do the wave, designer people.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
aha, they only had the all-star break to do most of the work
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
oh man, they're walking past these awesome, giant posters of hi-res photographs
of players and some of the concerts there.
I love seeing parts of a ballpark i’d never see in person.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
dude, big red seats visible from the field
it was foreshadowing. i swear it’s even the same shade. oh wait, Mrs. Doc loves the red.
trivia: Doc is afraid of needles. well, there you go. HOF!
more trivia… size 13 shoes. is that Canadian?
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I do.
I really want to see them screw up. As, in fact, they probably did.
StanTheManFan
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by StanTheManFan on Jan 5, 2011 9:57 PM EST up reply actions
Ion & Wine fans
NPR is streaming their new album right now
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
not working worth a damn for me
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
yeah it sucks.
worked well for the first like three minutes.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Working now, thanks!
"I don't like to sound egotistical, but every time I stepped up to the plate with a bat in my hands, I couldn't help but feel sorry for the pitcher." Rogers hornsby.
Joe Pos
3. Tim Raines simply cannot get any momentum going. His percentage did go up from 22.6% to 30.4% so that’s not an insubstantial jump. But Raines faces the same general problem that Morris faces … the dark cloud of steroid players is approaching. I think he will could fall entirely off the radar when that wave of players roars in.
I guess Raines’ best hope is that in the steroid cloud he will become a cause celebre, an anti-steroid option, sort of the way Jim Rice did. Raines’ greatness — his amazing base stealing and his ability to get on base and create havoc — sort of cuts against the Selig Era of baseball. I always want to remind people: Tim Raines got on base more times than Tony Gwynn in just 127 more plate appearances. Gwynn had 488 more total bases, which is a lot. But Raines had 540 more walks, which would be more. Raines also had almost 500 more stolen bases while being caught just 21 more times. He was essentially as valuable as Tony Gwynn only in different ways … and Gwynn was a first-ballot, slam-dunk Hall of Famer. Someday, I hope, people will appreciate just how good a baseball player Tim Raines was.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Jan 5, 2011 8:26 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Unfortunately
the “cause celebre” of the “anti-steroid option” could as easily be the “poster child” of the “anti-cocaine option.”
StanTheManFan
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by StanTheManFan on Jan 5, 2011 8:31 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, I don't know about poster child. He's got quite a few people to get behind.
Besides, Keith Hernandez got in.
Say what?
Hernandez did NOT get into the HoF, and snow is probably a key reason why.
StanTheManFan
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by StanTheManFan on Jan 5, 2011 8:39 PM EST up reply actions
The baby's stealing your brain power
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Just wait till 15-18 years from now
when he or she tells you how stupid you are by that point.
StanTheManFan
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by StanTheManFan on Jan 5, 2011 8:45 PM EST up reply actions
That's when you say
“I remember how dumb I was at your age, and since you got my genes that means you’re totally dumb right now.”
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Well played.
Putting junior in the position to either live with it, or say “Yeah, but I take after my father…” and have it come out as a POSITIVE thing.
The loss of face either way is great.
StanTheManFan
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by StanTheManFan on Jan 5, 2011 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
I like how we (the VEB collective) imagine spants' relationship with her future spawn
as a total bitch fest. If this turns out to be the case; i’m very sorry if its a boy.
It's my own fault.
Just like my future kid’s shitty attitude.
But seriously, I’m great with kids. Really.
At the very least
they will learn to fear and respect the knife.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
i hope mr spants will help guide little spants
on what to do & what not to. he’s got to be an expert now
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
well he must have done something right yesterday
because he looked kind of happy at Crown
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
creeeeepy....
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
if y'all don't want to be followed,
you should learn how to shake a tail
which reminds me, you really should get that busted tail light fixed
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
Someone clipped my car on the street
and knocked the housing off my mirror. We had to go to two junkyards to find one that fit my car. Crown Candy was our “Yay we found a perfect match and look at that – we’re in North St. Louis!” celebration moment.
that's probably better than my
“hey it’s Thursday i’ll eat an entire tray of brownies!” celebration
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
It's true!
“Prego brain” as my wife called it. She got kind of frustrated when her brain just decided not to work properly… especially since she was in med school at the time.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Yeah, that would suck.
I’ve spent a lot of time wondering how other women deal with this freak show.
Freak Show:
My wife’s belly became a show during meetings as our first kid was very visible when he moved…and he moved a lot.
Is it March 31st yet?
Yes.
I’ve heard these stories from people. My aunt was an OR nurse and someone dropped a tray of metal implements sending my aunt’s near-term baby into a ninja-fit. Apparently, not all the people in the OR that day knew babies did that.
Remembrance of 27 years ago...
My wife was singing in a performance of the Verdi Requiem. She was seated right behind the bass drum. She was 9 months pregnant at the time, so the conductor let her stay seated except when she was on.
In the “Dies Irae” the percussionist winds up and bashes that drum with everything he can muster. My wife knew it was coming. Our son did not.
The resulting kick physically lifted her out of her chair.
StanTheManFan
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by StanTheManFan on Jan 5, 2011 9:02 PM EST up reply actions
seriously? come on, baby's can't kick that hard
can they?
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
No prob.
My point, anyway, is that the apologists for steroid users (and I will leave it open whether I am one or not) may look at an admitted cocaine user and say the same standards should apply … and then make an example of Raines while letting some of their favored guys in. (Did I say they would behave consistently?) 50/50 chance of that occurring. And at the same time, the ones who don’t vote for roidiacs have a 50/50 chance of not voting for Raines so that they CAN be consistent.
My prediction: Watch as Raines gets about 50% of the vote when the steroid class arrives.
StanTheManFan
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by StanTheManFan on Jan 5, 2011 8:44 PM EST up reply actions
I wonder if any of them
got their cocaine from the players.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 6, 2011 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
they probably couldn't afford the good stuff.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 6, 2011 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
A 128 OPS+
would be the key reason why. That might be good enough for a CF or a SS, but not for a 1B, no matter how many Gold Gloves he won (Look at that tall midget!).
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 5, 2011 10:12 PM EST up reply actions
sounds like the Cardinals are kinda interested in Punto
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 8:54 PM EST reply actions
Nick Punto: Like Boog, but more expensive!
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
yeah
go figure…. since we don’t have a plus defensive shortstop anymore, the idea seems interesting.
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 8:57 PM EST up reply actions
As flaky, though?
StanTheManFan
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by StanTheManFan on Jan 5, 2011 8:59 PM EST up reply actions
that's why he makes more money I guess
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 8:59 PM EST up reply actions
well, he doesn't spin
and never goes “whoooo”.
Not sure I've seen dumber baseball words: "Brendan Ryan became expendable after (Cardinals) acquired infielder Ryan Theriot." -Joe Posnanski
...
If the Cards sign a backup infielder, it will have to be an infielder who is “adroit” at third base in case David Freese can’t handle the everyday job. This seems to rule out a return to St. Louis for David Eckstein, but Strauss says Nick Punto “is a popular name within some quarters of the organization.” We haven’t heard much about Punto since the Winter Meetings, where the former Twins infielder engaged in “meaningful negotiations” with Cleveland.
The Cardinals are looking for some infield depth at shortstop and third base, plus another starter to provide rotation depth. They’re looking for players with Major League experience to fill these roles, but on non-guaranteed contracts.
these statements seem quite contradictory
The Cardinals believe Mitchell Boggs and/or Jason Motte can develop into a solid closer, so there isn’t much interest in Rafael Soriano.
Woo!
sounds like they are exploring a lot of different options
although it’s interesting to hear the bit about Motte and Boggs (almost said Moggs and Botte heh). I’m just glad they used the word “adroit”
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 8:59 PM EST up reply actions
I think they were quoting Strauss
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
yeah
still, his rumormongering every once in a while has some validity
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 9:02 PM EST up reply actions
I could definitely see them going in this direction
by Merry CRasmus on Jan 5, 2011 9:06 PM EST up reply actions
yeah
why not I guess. confusing as to how much money they have to spend, etc
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 9:21 PM EST up reply actions
But why not just haul some replacement-level guy up from the farm?
Paying full value for replacement-level performance is a route to mediocrity.
StanTheManFan
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by StanTheManFan on Jan 5, 2011 9:59 PM EST up reply actions
that is their current MO
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 10:00 PM EST up reply actions
Punto's not replacement
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
yeah, but
he’s kind of an hijo de punto if you know what i mean
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
1-2 WAR range
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 10:02 PM EST up reply actions
like getting another brendan ryan but paying more for the luxury features
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
This is the epitome of a strawman
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Yes
I said earlier, verbatim, “Nick Punto: Like Boog, but more expensive!”
That wasn’t my argument
My argument was that Punto is not replacement-level.
Which he’s not.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
yeah I was just making conversation buddy
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
Don't confuse Punto past with Punto future.
This is a guy who batted .238/.313/.302 last year, and I remain to be convinced that isn’t what his future line will look like. Yes, he was an above-replacement offensive player in 2008, not by much, but by enough to combine with acceptable defense to make him useful. But three years is a long time for a guy now on the wrong side of 30. His hitting isn’t going to get better, and I am skeptical that his defensive value will persist.
Anybody got a PECOTA or CHONE prediction for this guy?
StanTheManFan
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by StanTheManFan on Jan 5, 2011 11:26 PM EST up reply actions
sounds like the argument for boog
only one year further removed from offensive competence
Your team is incompetently run by baseball equivalent of the captain from the Caine Mutiny -DiscoJer
Bill James projects a bit above his 2010 line
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Jan 5, 2011 11:40 PM EST up reply actions
Nick Punto
fWAR
’08 – 2.5
’08 – 1.3
’09 – 1.4
Not even close to replacement
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 5, 2011 11:41 PM EST up reply actions
He said replacement level hitting
Which isn’t a thing, but whatever.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Jan 5, 2011 11:44 PM EST up reply actions
Ignoring defense is extremely dumb
I don’t even see the point of it.
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 5, 2011 11:45 PM EST up reply actions
Don't be obtuse.
You can go to B-R or other places and see directly what part of a player’s WAR results from offense and what part from defense. In Punto’s case, for 2010 the answers were “less than zero” and “all of it,” respectively. That does not bode well for an aging player whose defensive value is at the skill positions.
The more I think about this potential acquisition, the less I like it.
StanTheManFan
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by StanTheManFan on Jan 6, 2011 12:03 AM EST up reply actions
Because hitting is obviously the only area where a player can help the team
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
who gives a shit?
If he’s worth over 1.0 WAR, then he’s worth over 1.0 – i don’t really care how he got there whether it was purely offensive or purely defensive
would you be happier if a player had 0.2 oWAR and 0.2 dWAR than someone who has 1.5 dWAR and -0.5 oWAR?
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 6, 2011 12:11 AM EST up reply actions
That was 2010.
0.5 WAR in 2009, erratic results before that, and he’s on the wrong side of 30.
StanTheManFan
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by StanTheManFan on Jan 5, 2011 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
There is absolutely no evidence that he'll be replacement-level next year
Especially given fWAR
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
man
if they could nail pujols for only 5 or 6 years at, say $28-29MM, that would be awesome
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
someone should make a predictions fanpost heh
I’m gonna go with 6 years @ 28.5 – 29 mil
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 10:00 PM EST up reply actions
i'm gonna stick with the 7/200 plan i drew up in some fanpost
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
Nice and even number... I like it
I’ll go with that
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Hockey fans
Great juniors finals currently on NHL Network. Russia was trailing Canada 3-0 to start the 3rd and Russia now lead 4-3 with 5 mins left. Blues 1st round pick Taresenko playing extremely well again for Russia. I hope that kid leaves the KHL and joins the Blues next year – looks like an offensive dynamo.
did i read correctly on stlgt
that he got injured?
Your team is incompetently run by baseball equivalent of the captain from the Caine Mutiny -DiscoJer
In the 2nd period
He took an awkward fall and then ended up essentially getting kicked in the head/shoulder. He was down a long time and didn’t look good, but he came back out for the 3rd and was a huge part of their rally. Had a 3rd period goal and an assist, and was generally relentless.
The Blues other 1st rounder, Jaden Schwartz, broke his ankle earlier in the tourney.
by Merry CRasmus on Jan 5, 2011 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
So who's more likely to get into the HOF...
Holliday, Wainwright, Rasmus, or Berkman?
I’ve got it
1. Holliday
2. Berkman
3. Rasmus
4. Wainwright
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
Wainwright has like a career 3.00 ERA
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Jan 5, 2011 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
yabut...
66 wins through age 28… if he averages 15 over the next eight years (unlikely) he won’t even get to 200. That’s like the absolute minimum to gain entry.
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
I think voters might be better in 15 years
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Jan 5, 2011 10:50 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't say that.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 6, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
they are pretty bad & have been for a long time
there are some signs they are getting better
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
I never say something can't be worse.
I usually end up being wrong.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 7, 2011 6:13 AM EST up reply actions
yabut....
The curveball to Beltran man!!! The curveball to Beltran.
by WizardofOz1982 on Jan 6, 2011 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
nah
berkman played on the same team as bagwell, who played on the same team as biggio, who played on the same team as caminiti. WAY too likely he took PEDs.
Your team is incompetently run by baseball equivalent of the captain from the Caine Mutiny -DiscoJer
Already too late
Cody McKay got to them all
by Merry CRasmus on Jan 5, 2011 10:27 PM EST up reply actions
they were already out.
mcgwire’s their coach.
Your team is incompetently run by baseball equivalent of the captain from the Caine Mutiny -DiscoJer
LOOK AT OUR FUCKING CLOSER PEOPLE
WE ARE DOOMED. DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
him, and that backup catcher we had that one time.
Your team is incompetently run by baseball equivalent of the captain from the Caine Mutiny -DiscoJer
McGwire had to repent to become the coach...
He’s like Winston Smith on the last page of 1984.
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
1. Holliday
2. Berkman
3. Wainwright
4. Rasmus
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
I doubt any of them get in
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 5, 2011 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
I'd bet that at least one of them gets into the hall
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
Berkman's been worth like 60 WAR over his career
He’s borderline already, should be a lock if he has 2-3 more good seasons.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Jan 5, 2011 11:41 PM EST up reply actions
but that's a fucking huge stretch
2-3 good seasons? I really don’t see him pulling that off. I don’t see him getting in with his current stats.
Also, Holliday has to nearly double what he has done in his career so far to get in, Wainwright started too late, and Rasmus is a stretch because he’s played two seasons.
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 5, 2011 11:43 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think 2-3 more good seasons is a stretch, he's only 34
Per B-R, he’s at 46.1 WAR. So if he plays another 3 years and averages 2 WAR that puts him at 52 WAR which is around the 50/50 mark. And 2 WAR per year for the next three years is a fairly even handed projection.
I’d say he’s got close to a 50/50 shot just based on that stats. But you never know with the BBWAA.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Jan 5, 2011 11:47 PM EST up reply actions
he's at 56 fWAR too
I don’t know why I just don’t see the BBWAA giving him credit. I mean look at what they are doing to Bagwell.
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 5, 2011 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
Bagwell is because of steroids though
Berkman’s mostly in the clean era.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Jan 5, 2011 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
And when those guys gained all that muscle
they started weighing suspiciously close to.. a duck!
BURN THEM
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
there isn't even anything close to evidence
If they can accuse Bagwell, I suspect they will accuse anyone that they want… Man this note on voting pisses me off
"Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contribution to the team(s) on which the player played."
Cobb was an asshole that didn’t affect him (and others I assume), Alomar spit in an umpire’s face that didn’t affect him, Gaylord Perry actually physically cheated his whole career and still got in…
I’m not saying these guys shouldn’t be in, but them getting in should be enough to allow for the steroid users to get in (especially since Perry got in! It’s the pitcher’s equivalent)
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 6, 2011 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
They very well might help pitchers a lot more
The theory is pitchers are more likely to get hurt when they are tired, steroids help you recover faster (less tired as the season rolls around)…
Not afraid to nitpick
great news for Tim Raines today
He’s beginning to build momentum and perhaps the ’cocaine vials in the backpocket so I slide head first" looks quaint compared to the steroid era. I now think he has a chance to go in. How can he be getting such a low vote?
Also some ex-Cardinals still in the running: Larry Walker had a great first year on a crowded ballot. Lee Smith still hanging around the 50% mark.
I think it’s now a given with so many steroid users coming onto ballot that none of them will get in during their 15 years. Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro, McGwire, sosa, bagwell will never see the Hall unless they buy a ticket. Was Biggio a steroid cheat as well?
Just win
hope Lee Smith gets in for sure
Raines should be a shoe in
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2011 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
If Smith does, I hope he starts for Cooperstown the day he gets elected.
That trip is gonna take awhile.
Is it March 31st yet?
by TBender on Jan 5, 2011 10:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
very funny
and George Hendrick should introduce him — the two of them would guarantee the longest induction ceremony ever.
Just win
also verry funny
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 6, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
GREEN!!
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 6, 2011 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
Smith...
is locked in between 35% and 45%… hope he stays there. A pitcher that only throws 1000 innings needs to have a lower career ERA than Adam Wainwright.
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
If Sutter is in then Smith should be in
He ’s borderline but he did it for a long time which I think in closers is quite impressive.
Just win
i think some of it was tied up in the whole
inventing the splitter thing
Your team is incompetently run by baseball equivalent of the captain from the Caine Mutiny -DiscoJer
And now that Blyleven is in...
the internet/basement zealots can focus their energies on Raines. Heyman doesn’t stand a chance.
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
We will destroy him
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Jan 5, 2011 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
Don't get a task manager. You don't need one.
And change a bunch of settings to give yourself as much battery life as possible. I found the forums at Android Central to be quite helpful.
So what do peole think about modern architecture?
I think it’s mostly crap.
Boog would have made that play.
what the heck is that
looks great
Your team is incompetently run by baseball equivalent of the captain from the Caine Mutiny -DiscoJer
I want to live in this

turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 6, 2011 12:57 AM EST up reply actions
Been there.
Tis in Spain if i remeber correctly. (which i probably don’t). But yeah, it looks awesome, massive fountains et al. But there is literally nothing interesting inside.
more excuse for me to visit Spain
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 6, 2011 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
i think sweeping generalizations are to be avoided
by YesWeOquendo on Jan 6, 2011 12:55 AM EST up reply actions
yup
some of it is, some of it isn’t
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 6, 2011 12:56 AM EST up reply actions
Have you met TPG before?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
isn't he the guy who makes gifs of players in slow motion
then extrapolates if they have good mechanics from just that one swing/throw, of which they do thousands of?
hmmmmmmm
Well
I don’t care that much for our new ball park.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 6, 2011 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
I liked Busch II a lot (except for the rug)
I don’t care much for the new place at all. It looks really cheap to me. I don’t like the tin overhead, for one thing. From the inside and the outside, II was far better looking than III.
I like the new field ok and the brick behind the plate, but that’s about it. I wasn’t impressed the first time I went. The nicest looking thing about it is the front facade but it seems to the only place you ever see in pictures…cause the rest of it doesn’t have any appeal.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 6, 2011 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
you are, honestly, the only person I have ever heard say that
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
I talked to a bunch of folks at the first game I went to
ad it was pretty much 50/50. Mostly the older fans didn’t care for it.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 6, 2011 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
Of all the parks I've been to
and that’s quite a few, I Like Wrigley Field the best. I’m sad to say that I think it’s days are numbered, but all things must pass.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 6, 2011 7:00 PM EST up reply actions
Wrigley is a dump
I can just tell by you saying that, that we judge ballparks by totally different criteria. The sightlines at Wrigley Dump are some of the worst in baseball. If you sit on the lower level, second section back you can’t even follow the flight of the ball because of the upper deck being so low. That’s if you’re not sitting behind a poll and can even see the field at all. And the seats are uncomfortable and old. The concessions are the worst of any stadium I’ve been to (10 MLB, 3MiLB). Add in the ignoramus fans, that stupid effing song they play at the end of wins, and not very many night games and you have an awful baseball experience, imo
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
to each his own
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 6, 2011 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
i've heard a lot of people, all of them over 30, say they hate Busch III
they all say it’s a glorified minor league ball park. they hate all the adds, they hate the Casino Queen Party Porch, they hate that there’s still a Big Mac Land, they hate the same things Dave hates, they really hate Stan’s statue isn’t fixed, they hate how expensive everything from the tickets to the food & drinks to the souvenirs are. and most of all, they really, really, really hate the softball field
i really wonder if those folks would like anything about a new stadium. Busch II meant so much to them. they grew up, not just on baseball mind you, going there with family & friends. it was the first park they saw a game at. it was where they fell in love with the Cardinals & baseball. they made so many wonderful memories going there that when it was torn down, a part of them was torn down with it. sure Busch II was a cookie cutter park meant to host many different sports. but it was their park, it was their home. and they miss it terribly.
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
That sounds about right.
But for me, I grew up watching baseball at Busch I (Sportsman’s Park). I didn’t feel terribly sad when it came down though, a little, but I was excited about the new park (Busch II). I had a lot of great memories from Busch I for sure, Mostly Mr. Musial, but it sure had some lousy seats in it. Some of them were directly behind concrete pillars. And the hot dogs were awful. But I saw a lot of great players there.
Of the three parks we’ve had, I like Busch II the best.
I think it’s ironic that some of the newer parks try to mimic that “old time” look and then put luxury boxes in them. If they really want the fans to experience some old time nostalgia they should sell bleacher seats for $5.00 so that more dads can take their wife and kids to the game and afford hot dogs and sodas and a souvenir. More kids could go to the game. More kids would be interested in baseball if they could actually go. It’s no wonder baseball has lost some of it’s appeal to younger kids. Baseball is too slow for a lot of today’s kids. They don’t have the patients to see everything that’s happening between pitches. They need to go to more games with Mom & Dad. Nothing beats being there and having your dad explain what’s happening and being able to see the whole field.
Baseball ain’t what it use to be.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 7, 2011 6:49 AM EST up reply actions
This critique is probably correct overall, I think
However, despite its cookie-cutter status there are some things I genuinely liked about Busch II, specifically.
It was cookie-cutter and almost entirely concrete and metal, but the arch motif connected it to St. Louis, especially appropriate since The Arch was built around the same time. The architecture of Busch III is much “nicer” and it is somewhat reminiscent of some downtown St. Louis architecture, but that is not unique to St. Louis by any means. There are plenty of building in a similar style in downtowns all over the country, due to the styles of the period when those cities were booming, etc.
Second, the thing I like most about Busch II (and actually this won’t be unique to St. Louis, somewhat cutting against my above point) is that it was fully enclosed and was an elegant elliptical shape. This made it seem like a baseball Colosseum to me. Skylines and city views are cool, and not necessarily worse or anything. But there was something enticing to me about this big, round, baseball world that you were fully enveloped in. There was a connection to the ancient amphitheaters, the feeling that there were our gladiators, and the building paid a small homage to that. Also, with less pretty scenery to distract the audience, it was an all-baseball (or all-football, but I never went to a football game there) experience, at least moreso.
That said, the food is better, the bathrooms are way better, everything is cleaner, nicer, I feel better about going there with small children, etc. etc. etc. I kind-of-but-not-all-that-much miss the soaked-in aroma of beer, peanuts, smoke, and urine that the old stadium had by the time I was around to go to games there.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I agree with this
especially the Colosseum thing. I’ve never thought about it like that, but it’s a great analogy.
Little fact about the arches on the top of Busch II: They weren’t designed to mimic the Gateway arch. They were designed to mimic a beer bottle cap. If you look at the side elevation of the stadium, it looks like there’s a beer bottle cap on top of the stadium. Busch = Beer. Get it? Architects are so sneaky.
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
That is so awesome!
Just a happy accident they also resemble the Arch.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Only problem I have with this is
Busch II was the first place I ever saw the cards too. Growing up, it was were I saw the cardinals play too. You don’t have to be 50 years old for Busch II to be the only place you ever saw the cardinals play.
I agree it hurt to see it torn down, and I still remember walking out of the stadium for the last time after seeing late inning heroics by El Hombre in on of the games from the final series. I’ve said before, I think Busch III still wouldn’t really feel like home were it not for winning the WS in 2006. The WS meant everything as far as christening Busch III, IMO.
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
I'll go on to say
that I absolutely loathe the concept of luxury/party boxes as well.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 6, 2011 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
I think the existence of those things keeps the nice seats relatively cheap.
You can get first row field seats for less than $100 some games. Quite unusual for a team of the Cardinals’ caliber.
Cards do their premiums so much better than other teams.....
The all-inclusives are an absolute steal. $100ish, free food and drink, and decent seats, with a tv right there to be able to see replays and such at a lot of them is just great marketing. The Comm box seats we got came with a picture of us in the dugout, which was pretty cool.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
We're from totally different era's, you and I
the worst experience ever had at a ballgame was in a party box. The seats came from my wife’s work for “company night”. Her boss gave her the tickets so we had to go.
I go to a game to watch a game, not to party. And why would I need a TV when there’s a field right in front of me?…..because the seats were a terrible place to watch a game. I can watch the game on TV at home.
My favorite way to watch a game is in the bleachers. I’ll usually have about 2 dogs and 3 beers. I’ll never sit in a party or luxury box again. I’m strictly old school at a game.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 6, 2011 11:50 PM EST up reply actions
There's a difference between a party box and the all inclusive areas.
The ones that I’m talking are regular seats.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
yea!
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 7, 2011 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
whatever it was
that I went to had a room with seats, a TV, a fridge that never ran out somehow and glass doors that led to some awful seats.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 7, 2011 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
I took these from my all inclusive seats last year.
This particular section didn’t have tv’s, but the seats were pretty decent.


Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
sitting that close to the field you obviously don't know anything about what it means to be a REAL baseball fan
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
zoom lens?
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 7, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
no...the two people you see in the last photo were sitting next to me.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I don't consider $100 for a seat cheap.
It may be relative by today’s standards but it’s not cheap to me. Baseball has priced me out of the park. I quit going after Big Mac raised the price of parking.
A friend of mine wanted me to go to a game and I told him the only way I’ll go to a game is if someone else paid for it, so he took me to the only 2 games I’ve been to at the new park. I made him buy the beer too.
I still enjoy baseball but I think the money the players and owners make is obscene and they’ve made it hard for the average working stiff to afford it…and they don’t really care as long as they can sell enough tickets to those that can afford it.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 7, 2011 12:01 AM EST up reply actions
The Cardinals had quite a few good ticket deals last season.
You should sign up for their email newsletter.
Plus, they do the $5.50 tickets. Or they did. Now that they’re switching back to KMOX 1120, maybe they’ll be $5.60 tickets? It’s a great way to go to a game and get good seats. It’s the cheapest way to go to a game while still buying your tickets, anyway.
And I did say “relatively cheap.” Those seats are typically hundreds of dollars – or thousands – in other ballparks.
Plus since I started bootlegging into games
I’m saving a fortune not paying their ridiculous beer prices. Take your own food in and If you’re feeling adventurous and park on the street, it really can be a pretty cheap experience.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
You sound very old and crotchety throughout this whole exchange, sorry
You really can’t afford to buy like 15 dollar seats in the bleachers? I thought you liked them better anyway…
100 dollars for first row seats are cheap. The “first row” part is the important part of that sentence.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Jan 7, 2011 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
sure, I get it that that's cheap
by today’s standards and that it’s all relative. A new car is cheaper today than 5 years ago…relatively, but I can’t afford that either.
It’s not that I’m old and crotchety, it’s that I’ve decided to rebel against the outrageous salaries that athletes make. I’ll put my money into something more tangible.
Also, I use to go to about 20-40 games a year, when it was affordable and when I lived close enough to get to the park in about 15 minutes. I could see the arch from my back window. It’s not as easy as that anymore.
It’s more about priorities than it is about being crotchety.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 7, 2011 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
Fair enough
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Jan 7, 2011 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
Truthfully,
I REALLY miss going to the games. But I just can’t do it anymore, morally or financially.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 7, 2011 12:22 AM EST up reply actions
I won't pay the price
that Nike wants for a pair of their shoes either.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 7, 2011 12:32 AM EST up reply actions
therefore...
I don’t mind if they pay Albert $100mill or $500mil….except that I might have to pay to watch him on TV. When that happens baseball and I will get a divorce.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 7, 2011 12:07 AM EST up reply actions
You have it easy.....
being a fan 1000’s of miles away, I have no option but to pay to watch the games, and to be quite honest, $150 for access to 155+ games is a pretty good deal, in my mind.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
no, that's not a bad deal.
honestly, I’d probably do that if I had to.
Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.
by Dave Pendleton on Jan 7, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions

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