Slaughter-ing the Myth of Clutch
by bgh on Jan 17, 2011 8:00 AM EST
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Last Monday, in "What a Difference a Year Makes (in Run Distribution)," we took a look at why the 2010 Cardinals ball club wound up with only 86 team wins despite having a Pythagorean Record of 91-71, which was the exact same Pythagorean Record and actual record of the 2009 incarnation of the Cardinals. It was meant more to look at the 2009 and 2010 seasons in hindsight than to predict what 2011 may hold.* In the discussion thread, a critique of the concept of a Pythagorean Record evolved into a discussion of clutch performance. This discussion reminded me of a photo I snapped at Busch Stadium last season.
*After our discussion here last Monday, over at the newly reminted Gashouse Graphs, sometime VEB contributor and fellow Cardinals blogger, Steve Sommer, takes a look at the historical correlation between Pythagorean Record and the next season's performance in the wonderfully titled, "The Cardinals and Pythagoras" and "Cardinals and Pythagoras Pt. 2."
I often visit the statues when I make it down to Busch Stadium, usually when I am waiting for the gates to open for batting practice. I look at the statutes themselves, read, and re-read their plaques, and think about the rich history of the franchise. Last year, I read the plaque at the base of Enos Slaughter's statue, and it made me want to dig a bit deeper into its assertions. With a FanPost that never materialized in mind, I snapped a photo and went on my merry way to enjoy batting practice and then the game. It was last Monday's thread that brought this long-forgotten photo to the forefront of the dusty attic that is my mind. Here is that photo:
I love the writing style of the plaques on the statues and Enos Slaughter's is no exception. While the photo is pretty clear, if somewhat off-center, here is the text from the plaque describing Slaughter:
Hard-nosed, hustling performer who played the game with intensity and determination. Flat, level swing made him a lifetime .300 hitter who invariably came through in clutch situations. Excellent outfielder with strong arm. Daring baserunner famous for his mad dash home to win 1946 World Series.
Hard-nosed, hustling, intensity, determination, strong arm, daring baserunner, flat swing, level swing, and clutch--such is the stuff of legends. Legend and myth are often inextricably intertwined, and there is a part of this inscription--that is, a part of the embronzed lore of Enos "Country" Slaughter--that I wanted to take a closer look at on that fine summer day last season. Was Enos "Country" Slaughter so good in clutch situations that he invariably came through in them?
One of the problems with gauging a player's performance as being "clutch" or not is nailing down what exactly one means when one says a player is "clutch" or a situation is "clutch."* To do so, I tend to cast a wide net. That way, we are sure to consider nearly every variation of situation that could be counted amongst those situations that are "clutch." Luckily for us, the invaluable splits section over at Baseball-Reference makes this an endeavor easy enough to complete.
*Presumably performing well in "clutch" situations makes a ballplayer "clutch."
In looking at the career splits for Enos Slaughter at Baseball-Reference, he is a prime candidate for such an exercise. For one, he had a long and distinguished career. Slaughter made a lot of plate appearances over many years, driving up his PA totals in specific situations so that they are close in total to what a typical season would produce. Even in the more narrowly tailored of the situations in the "clutch" spectrum, Slaughter has a fair number of PAs. If we are using one great player to explore the notion of being "clutch," Slaughter is a good choice as he has had enough PAs to test the theory that any player, if given enough PAs in "clutch" situations so as to free him from the ups and downs inherent in a limited sample size, will see his production in those situations even out and approximate his career performance, or, his true talent.*
*The Great Debate on Clutch took place in the wake of the 2004 Boston Red Sox championship run and the 2005 season when David Ortiz was heralded far and wide as one of the greatest clutch hitters ever. John Hendry, owner of the Red Sox, even gave Ortiz a plaque (fittingly enough for this post) declaring Ortiz: "THE GREATEST CLUTCH HITTER IN THE HISTORY OF THE BOSTON RED SOX." Nate Silver authored a piece that appeared in "Baseball Between the Numbers" and on ESPN.com Page 2, which I would encourage you to read if you have not yet done so.
For a true talent baseline, I listed Slaughter's career numbers first. In over 9,000 PAs, Slaughter hit exactly .300 with a .382 OBP, .453 SLG, and .834 OPS. I then looked at every situational split that I felt might be "clutch": runners in scoring position, runners in scoring position with two outs, late and close, men on base, game score within one run, game score within two runs, game score within three runs, tie game, and, of course, the playoffs.* Each of these situational splits has a row in the chart.
*Slaughter only compiled 96 postseason PAs and every single one of them was in the World Series. In Slaughter's day, there were no League Championship Series and certainly no Wild Cards. He played back in the good ol' days when the National League Pennant meant having the best record in the NL and that the club went straight to the World Series to face off against the American League's standard-bearer.
SLAUGHTER'S CAREER NUMBERS & CAREER NUMBERS IN CLUTCH SITUATIONS
|
Situation |
PA |
BA |
OBP |
SLG |
OPS |
| Career |
9,084 |
.300 |
.382 |
.453 |
.834 |
| RISP |
836 |
.305 |
.414 |
.447 |
.860 |
| RISP 2 Outs |
359 |
.293 |
.429 |
.434 |
.863 |
| Late & Close |
558 |
.300 |
.393 |
.456 |
.846 |
| Men On Base |
1,462 |
.306 |
.400 |
.446 |
.849 |
| Tie Game |
760 |
.299 |
.405 |
.463 |
.868 |
| Within 1 Run |
1,438 |
.301 |
.394 |
.443 |
.837 |
| Within 2 Runs |
1,915 |
.294 |
.387 |
.422 |
.809 |
| Within 3 Runs |
2,238 |
.295 |
.387 |
.427 |
.814 |
| Playoffs |
96 |
.291 |
.406 |
.468 |
.875 |
Slaughter was a very good offensive ballplayer. His career numbers clearly establish this. But, as for being invariably clutch, as the plaque proclaims, I cannot say it is so. Calling any player's offensive performance invariable in baseball is difficult to do since it is a sport based on failure. Here is Slaughter, an all-time Cardinal great and Hall-of-Famer, who failed to get a hit in seven out of every ten of his at-bats and failed to get on-base in about six out of every ten of his plate appearances. And that upper-crust skill level reflected in his overall career line is approximately Slaughter's production in each of the various categories from the "clutch" spectrum above-charted.
Slaughter's batting average does not fluctuate too much, from a low of .291 in the playoffs to .300 for his career to a high of .306 with men on the basepaths. His OBP was understandably lower for his career at .383 than in situations where the game was close and/or there were runners on the bases. (After all, would you want to pitch to Enos "Country" Slaughter in such a situation? Better to pitch around him and face a lesser hitter, I would think.*) Slaughter's SLG does not vary greatly either.
*This begs the question, perhaps to be looked into at a later date, of who protected Musial's protector?
And so Enos Slaughter, a historically great Cardinal, was not invariably clutch. Slaughter was, though, one heck of an offensive ballplayer. Three times out of ten, he would get a hit and about four times out of ten, he would get on-base. One would want Slaughter to dig into the batter's box in a close game not because he was "clutch" but because he could hit a baseball and draw a walk with the best of them.
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HFS
I’ll read the article later, but HFS. MLB radio is talking about the cards and yanks trading pujols and Tex like it could actually happen. And they actually think the cards would have to throw in a prospect to make it work. HFS!
How can MLB radio be this bad
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 17, 2011 8:17 AM EST via mobile reply actions
A-some trade doods
Right. We’ll trade them Albert Pujols for a first baseman who is the same age and not nearly as good, despite being one of the better first basemen in baseball (because that’s how good Albert Pujols is). Then we’ll give them another player too because, at this point, we’ve ingested enough hallucinogens that we actually think we are a hummingbird of some sort so we can be convinced of anything.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
You're right, he's not as good. But
he’s signed through 2016 at $22.5m or less.
Who'd have thought that with a name as awesome as 'Enos Slaughter'
one would need a cool nickname as well?
Good read, i think the conclusions really depend on the definition of ‘clutch’. Is clutch a player who performs better in the situations you describe, or one who doesn’t fold to (or seem to fold to) the pressure and so performs as well with RISP as they do at any other time? If it is the latter, then Slaughter is a ‘clutch player’
I would have to agree
Performing at nearly the same level as his career levels and not wilting under the pressure seems clutch to me.
by SecondHalfMatt on Jan 17, 2011 8:35 AM EST up reply actions
I think this is a good point to bring up, but I'm not sure I agree
I don’t have any evidence on hand that it is unusual to expect a player to perform at their normal level in whatever “clutch” situations we use to make the comparison. I would say, if most players tend to do worse in those situations compared to their averages, then I would agree with you—merely preventing yourself from doing this would earn you a “clutch” quality. But I have no idea what is the “normal” clutch-situation-performace that we would compare to.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
see free-throw, clutch
similar in terms of added importance, visibility, and attention
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
What is this "free-throw" you speak of,
oh forked-tongue one. Is it when the batter is distracted, and forgets to step out of the box, so the pitcher essentially gets a “free-throw” pitch, with no chance of the batter even looking at the ball, much less swinging at it? And, how does one record this (or even, why)?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 17, 2011 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
see ncaa rule change to 10 foul rule
a “clutch” situation that they thought had too much “clutch” associated with it
the sport, i believe, was a tournament of some 64 teams in march of the year
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
i think he knows what the basketball portion of it is
it’s the relation to baseball and clutch that makes no sense… for instance what is a “free-throw” in baseball?
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 17, 2011 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
if a Batter is awarded a "Time Out"
by an Umpire, after the pitcher enters his wind-up, and yet, the pitcher continues to throw the base-ball towards Home Plate, and due to the Unexpected Nature of the Time-out, accidentally looses the ball directly at the Batter, striking him, (most likely about the midriff, or possibly the posterior, but occasionally about the head and shoulders), the batter will not be Rewarded with first base, due to the fact that Time was Out.
In earlier days, this was known as a “Free Throw At”.
Perhaps this was his confusion?
Not sure I've seen dumber baseball words: "Brendan Ryan became expendable after (Cardinals) acquired infielder Ryan Theriot." -Joe Posnanski
that is awesome.
Your team is incompetently run by baseball equivalent of the captain from the Caine Mutiny -DiscoJer
You lie.
There is no other sport. There is only baseball.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 17, 2011 9:27 PM EST up reply actions
bgh has proved the point
In*var*i*a*ble
–adjective
1. not variable; not changing or capable of being changed; static or constant.
–noun
2. something that is invariable; a constant
So, old Country came through in the clutch at the same rate as he did in non-clutchy situations. (Of course, invariably also means always, and without fail, so never mind)
"I always thought he was very handsome. I liked his eyes" - My late Grandmother referring to Rogers Hornsby
by Hoosier Cards on Jan 17, 2011 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
good work bgh
now, why am I up this early on a federal holiday? Oh, that’s right, we ran out of gas in the LP last night. It’s 52º in my house.
Also up to remind everyone to vote early and often for the Little Rock Express. Today is the last day to vote.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
yeah
gas company is only a mile away. They say someone will be out today to fill ‘er up. Guy was like, "It’s best not to let them run all the way out, now we have to do a pressure check." Well no crap buddy, I intentionally let it run out. I like sitting around freezing my balls off.
Also, yes, the vote is ridiculously close.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I've got gas!
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Jan 17, 2011 9:00 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That pressure check is bullshit.
Just another way to hit you for 50 dollars.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 17, 2011 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
Looks like the site is wilting under the pressure.
I’m having trouble getting in. I’ll keep trying.
Boog woulda.
by The Continental on Jan 17, 2011 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
blame Cody
he’s stuffing the ballot there too
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
down by 7 votes
This is going to be close. I blame my self for voting only on days when I saw a comment on VEB requesting my vote.
The highlight of my baseball career came in Philadelphia's Connie Mack Stadium when I saw a fan fall out of the upper deck. When he got up and walked away, the crowd booed.
--Bob Uecker
I tried to vote
hope it counts. I got some registration message that I don’t remember from an earlier vote. BTW, LIttle Rock was in the lead by 48.
Not that I’d be able to see either route, but for anyone along the winning route, go see it. The 844 came through here a few years ago and it was impressive. If I was at work, I could post a pic or two…
by ArkansasTravs on Jan 17, 2011 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
Boise voted for again
as you wish. Although that Little Rock line has a 30+ vote lead over that Tuscola Turn line….Boise’s pretty far behind, don’t see us catching the leaders…I guess this is what it feels like to be a Pirate fan.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 17, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
little more than 3 hours to go
and a 400 vote lead. If you haven’t voted yet today, please do! And thank you!
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
one hour left
and exactly a 400 vote lead. I gotta go to bed now.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Here is today's PC message in recognition of today's federal holiday
Although a great a player, Slaughter was considered one of the most racist players of his time, and actually tried to convince his teammates to protest Jackie Robinson’s admittance into the major leagues. He was also widely known as a “dirty” player.
So he was basically our Ty Cobb.
That's not on the plaque!
Also, was he more or less racist in clutch situations?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jan 17, 2011 8:45 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm gonna need some time to research that stat
By the way, I’m not really very PC – was just struck by the irony. I am very glad, though, that I don’t have to work today.
by peppermartin on Jan 17, 2011 8:50 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I had actually somehow forgotten he was pretty prominent in the "racist players" category
so I was struck by the irony too. I still felt the need to make a smart-ass comment, though…
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I don't think it's a matter of political correctness,
but one of basic human decency. And Enos Slaughter allegedly lacked it. He was the Cardinals’ Ty Cobb. A very apt comparison. In my opinion, players like Slaughter and Cobb who were great players but lacking in character are what make the PED debate so hard to swallow as to HOF admittance.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jan 17, 2011 9:55 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Bingo
This is pretty much my view on the issue. Which is why, these days, when I start hearing or reading talking heads try to lecture me on the morality of PEDs my eyes just kinda glaze over and eventually I get ticked off and do something else with my time.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Two words
Potato gun
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 17, 2011 12:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
This
Mark McGwire is unelectable b/c he took ‘roids. Ty Cobb nearly beat a crippled man to death for calling half a you-know-what. McGwire told half truths about his ’roid use. Cobb sharpened his spikes so he could hurt people worse when sliding into them. And somehow Buck O’Neill can’t be in the Hall of Fame. The organization has a permanent black mark as long as Cobb (and for that matter Cap Anson) are in in spite of character issues while people are left out basically for character issues.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 17, 2011 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
Cobb beat an elevator operator for "being uppity"
I will let you guess his race. He’s close to below Hitler on the humanity scale.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
racism is the dumbest thing around
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 17, 2011 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
post/sig combo
pointed out without comment
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
click on the link
listen to my band, genius.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 17, 2011 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
i just thought it was funny
if it was read as a single statement. “racism is the dumbest thing around. turn it up to 11”
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
ah
now I get it! heh. well, unfortunately it hasn’t gone away by 2011. ugh
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 17, 2011 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
Or a reincarnation of Rogers Hornsby.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 17, 2011 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
that's slanderous to Hornsby
Slaughter’s lifetime .300 doesn’t even begin to touch Hornsby’s .358. If not for Babe Ruth, the ’20s would have been known as the age of Hornsby.
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
I think he was comparing their RA, not BA
RA is Racism Average (which, for my money, is quite inferior to ORP, Opressing-Race Percentage).
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I don't know if Klansman makes any sense as a racism replacement level
That’s like, MVP-level racism right there. If you’re using the stat for the Hall of Racism, then I can see it. I prefer to use something like “that annoyingly outward liberal friend who tries too hard to not appear racist, but sometimes fails and you can kind of see he’s afraid of black people” as a replacement level.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
this
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 17, 2011 5:16 PM EST up reply actions
The Rajah
I’m sure he could be guilty of being a racist, but Hornsby was a dick to everybody.
I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson
Invariably
Without variation. That could be interpreted two ways, I guess:
1. He came through in the clutch without variation, meaning that he always came through in the clutch. We know this not to be true, as he failed roughly 60% of the time. (official definition: on every occassion, always)
2. He came through in the clutch without variation from his regular statistics. Now this sounds correct, but it doesn’t seem to be the sort of thing that you would need to take special care to point out on a plaque with less than 75 words.
It was rumored that both Slaughter and Terry Moore were the primary leaders of the STL group that was trying to protest Jackie’s admittance. Slaughter was also involved in an incident where he spiked Robinson at first base later in that ’47 season. After getting thrown out by several steps on a grounder that Jackie had to stretch for, Slaughter spiked him in the thigh (not the foot, ankle, or calf – the thigh!).
I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson
Growing up
I had a book about Jackie Robinson and it told the story of the spiking in child’s terms without Enos Slaughter’s name or the name of the opposing team. Years late, I read the story with the players’ and teams’ names. It was very clearly the same anecdote and it was very clear that Enos Slaughter was a deplorable human being. Yet, he has a bronze statue outside of Busch, his number retired, and a bronze plaque in the Hall of Fame. Seems odd that people cite the character clause on McGwire but no one seems to have done so with Slaughter.
Also, I love the “invariably” analysis.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
So does clutch mean that...
1) you hit BETTER in “clutch” situations
or
2) you DON’T HIT WORSE in “clutch” situations?
That's the hardest thing about the debate on clutchness.
It’s difficult to nail down a definition.
I would say that simply hitting as well as you always do would be a pretty low bar to clear for a plaque inscription, though.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I always though the best parameter of clutch
was OPS with RISP while trailing.
by peppermartin on Jan 17, 2011 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
Good luck finding that stat anywhere, though
by peppermartin on Jan 17, 2011 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
It's on the same page I linked to above.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
What did everyone else do in that era?
Very interesting data. Thanks for doing it. I wonder if a higher batting average of .005 is significant? “Clutch” seems to me that you perform better than others in tight situations. What did the rest of the league players do in those same situations in the same era? How about comparing him to Musial over the same span and see which was better? I do not know how to get this data, nor do I want to spend the time doing it, but I like it when you do it.
Older than any three of you.
by Remember Kenny B on Jan 17, 2011 9:45 AM EST reply actions
I thought about including the same chart for every Cardinal with a retired number
as well as Rolen, Edmonds, Pujols, and Holliday, just for discussion’s sake. Here’s Musial’s Baseball-Reference page. When I glanced at it, it struck me that he seemed to hit a little bit more poorly in some “clutch” situations. Then again, Musial overall career slash line was .331/.417/.559/.976 over 12,717. That is such an incredible line over such a long career. Even hitting slightly less well in some of the above categories is still better than most, I would wager.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Why don't the numbers ad up?
Were these statistics started during Musial’s career? for example, look at the total games played in his career stats, and then look at the total games played with 1, 2, or 3 outs. Likewise, it the out chart, he never hit over .327, so something is missing. Anyway, it tells me Musial underperformed in “clutch” situations, but Slaughter overperformed.
Older than any three of you.
by Remember Kenny B on Jan 17, 2011 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
Wow, look at Albert!
A career OPS of 1.050 and with RISP 1.158!! That plus the Musial data convinces me that some people are clutch, even if they make 6-7 outs out of 10 at bats.
Older than any three of you.
by Remember Kenny B on Jan 17, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
Some people are clutch, and they are invariably the people that are great players like Musial and Pujols. Great players play great in the clutch, and crappy players are crappy in the clutch.
Enter vivaelpujols
My great wit allows me to interject that by assuming the partakers of this conversation are inbedded and perhaps romantically entangled, rather than indeed, the truthful observation that they are both platonic and standing upright. Great comedy may be produced!! -Aranathor
granted, the 232 career IBB's w/RISP factors into that 1.158 OPS.
but what really blows my mind, is that- at some point in his career- Albert Pujols was asked to sacrifice bunt with RISP.
WTF, Tony?
Not sure I've seen dumber baseball words: "Brendan Ryan became expendable after (Cardinals) acquired infielder Ryan Theriot." -Joe Posnanski
it was a good call back then
It was June of his rookie year. He was 0-3 with a GDP that day. He moves runners from 1-2 over to 2-3. They give a IBB to Bobby Bonilla and then Craig Paquette knocks in a couple with a single.
heh – kip wells took the loss that day. nice.
The highlight of my baseball career came in Philadelphia's Connie Mack Stadium when I saw a fan fall out of the upper deck. When he got up and walked away, the crowd booed.
--Bob Uecker
still not a good call
The fact that he was 0-3 doesn’t really tell us much about how he would hit in his next at-bat
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 18, 2011 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
Enos Slaughter = Flat, Level Swing
Not really.
The level swing is a myth.
Don’t believe everything you read on a plaque.
Boog would have made that play.
what if the plaque heard about someone doing coke thirdhanded?
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Jan 17, 2011 10:36 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
WINNER
BOOSH! BURNSAUCE!
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 17, 2011 1:03 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
15 second into Slaughter's HOF profile video...
Just as the voice-over guy is saying “flat, level swing” they show a clip of Slaughter taking a swing that is anything but flat and level.
Boog would have made that play.
sorry
I don’t accept swing analyses without gif corroboration and a semi-clever title
by mattyp on Jan 17, 2011 10:59 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
spants' semi-cleaver
No Boobstain…this will soon be a thing of the past for spants.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 17, 2011 5:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Pfft. I don't wear pearls.
If you don't want my foot on your throat, I'll need to hear the safe word.
so many jokes...
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Jan 17, 2011 6:52 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
a plaque:
My name is Enos, slaughterer of slaughterers
Look on my flat, level swing, ye gritty, and despair!
Is it wrong
that as soon as you said that, I thought "I just finished Construction, now I can build my Colosseums?
Yep, every Hall of Famer did something unique. Mike Schmidt played with his hat sideways. Roberto Clemente chewed other people's fingernails. Tris Speaker was Japanese. Lou Boudreau rode a dolphin into the batter's box. Nap Lajoie would only use John Wilkes Booth's dismembered leg as a bat. And he corked it. Johnny Mize was from the future. - FJM
What's the reference?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
It is Civ City: Rome?
My son plays that occasionally.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 17, 2011 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
Anytime I hear/read the name Enos Slaughter
my mind immediately goes to “Who’s on first?”.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 17, 2011 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
Great stuff, great read, bgh.
Can we get similar information for Yadi. Seems to me like he comes through a lot in clutch situations, even if his average and OBP isn’t in the .300/.360 range
I need signature suggestions. The Boog and the Walrus have both departed. And it's not funny anymore... sniff
I know almost everyone here disagrees,
but there is no way you could convince me that some guys step up in the clutch once and a while. http://bit.ly/dUWxCA
by ElMaquino on Jan 17, 2011 11:34 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Problem is
Some guys step up in the 1st inning 2 outs no one on base about as frequently as they do in the clutch.
Not afraid to nitpick
It's not that folks do or don't or can or can't
So much as empirical data can’t predict whether they will or won’t. A players “regular” numbers/projections are usually a better predictor of future “clutch” performance than are his “clutch” numbers
by stevesommer05 on Jan 17, 2011 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
by the time you have enough of a signal
to drown out the noise, the guy’s career is over or he’s a totally different player
by stevesommer05 on Jan 17, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
Nice link spam.
Just put it in your signature line so we’re not fooled into thinking you’re linking to something relevant to what you’re saying.
If you don't want my foot on your throat, I'll need to hear the safe word.
I can't even imagine how INSANELY exciting it would be to see the "Mad Dash"
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
If his fielding numbers are accurate
Then Slaughter was no Butcher in the outfield! Ha, ha! Yes.
I’m kind of surprised nobody has used this pun yet.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
there's a reason...
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
What's the reason?
Other than it being a crime against baseball and the English language?
Oh, wait…
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
imagine their christmas invitations
“come enjoy an evening of Christmas delights at the Slaughter house.” LOllllll haaah
Various Twits are reporting that Yadi has canceled his appearance
at the Winter Warm-Up due to a family matter.
Boog woulda.
by The Continental on Jan 17, 2011 11:59 AM EST reply actions
And in other Cardinal Twitter news, how about some Franklins:
Ryan Franklin is apparently @Franky3131 on Twitter, according to Goold.
don't embarrass yourselves by talking to the beard.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Buster Olney via MLBTR
It’s apparent that talks between the Cardinals and Albert Pujols "are not going as smoothly as the Cardinals want," Olney writes.
Because no news is bad news?
I suppose, and "not going as smoothly as the Cardinals want"
doesn’t mean anything anyway. Could just mean they’re not accepting the Cardinals’ initial offers, which is to be expected since that’s the normal course for negotiation anyway.
And I also don’t buy the spring training deadline, its just a negotiating tact. When you’re talking hundreds of millions of dollars, an agent’s ears are always open.
Mark texeira
ATMLBR
THATS ACCORDING TO MLB RADIO
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 17, 2011 1:06 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Ugh
Caps lock stayed on. Just pointing out that according to MLB radio, we should trade pujols and a prospect fir Tex
Still flummoxed by that line of thinking
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 17, 2011 1:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
There is no one in baseball worth Pujols AND a prospect....
…spurious nonsense.
:=8/
G-O-H-O-H-O-9-O!
G-O-H-O-H-O-9-O!
forget existing players
How many Hall of Famers would be worth Pujols and a prospect?
The highlight of my baseball career came in Philadelphia's Connie Mack Stadium when I saw a fan fall out of the upper deck. When he got up and walked away, the crowd booed.
--Bob Uecker
In a vacuum perhaps...
there is a small matter of “contract situation” to consider though.
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
yes, buster, it would be nice if he had already signed
now, go away until something happens
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 17, 2011 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
yeah i'm not buying it
mostly because how the hell would he find out before Goold, Strauss, etc..
Plus his track record is golden!
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 17, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
A quote that is probably true...
…but to the extent it is true is a meaningless, pointless statement. In other words, a deepity.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 17, 2011 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
Forget the debate about if clutch means better or the same in clutch situations
When I read that same data, bgh, I see that Slaughter’s OPS in every situation except trailing by 2,3 is greater than his career OPS. The highest OPS splits are in tie games and during the playoffs. AND his OBP is higher than his career average in every single category you listed. Sure it’s not my a whole lot, but over a career, these numbers are going to converge around career averages. The fact that all of the splits listed are above, and some by a wide margin, his career OBP tells me that he was invariably clutch.
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
but, there is no such thing as clutch.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
there's gotta be at least a few players that excel in pressure situations, no?
maybe just a few clutch players?
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 17, 2011 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
That generally suck in other situations?
I would tend to disagree….good players are good, bad players are bad.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
nah
there’s gotta be a few that actually ramp up their stats in clutch situations. didn’t Luddy usually do better than usual in the clutch? or was he more of a non-choker
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 17, 2011 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
Luddy was just super streaky imo.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
ah
that’s probably it. later I’ll try and look up the RISP numbers and such.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 17, 2011 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Luddy had better numbers
I’m not really sure how much luck was involved since he has a .351 career BABIP with RISP yet he has a .308 overall….
This year he also had better with a .400 BABIP with RISP…
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 17, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
I think there are
But usually it’s negligible
Like… how much would a “clutch” Aaron Miles hit? It’s not going to balloon his numbers to .400/.500/.600 in the clutch… he might get on base 3% more of the time and slug a tiny bit better
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
oh, i agree
I see “clutch” as having slightly better numbers in pressure situations. Not boosting OBP by 100 pts or SLG by 200
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
agreed
runs in the first 8 innings count the same as runs in the 9th. going 0-3, then coming through with a ‘clutch’ RBI hit in the 9th isnt any better than getting that RBI hit in the 4th and K’ing in the 9th.
except you aren't batting knowing that you'll come up again later
Your team is incompetently run by baseball equivalent of the captain from the Caine Mutiny -DiscoJer
OT: are any of our resident attorneys on the criminal side?
no, this does not pertain to a pending legal matter, personal or otherwise
Do you mean that they defend criminals?
Or that they are criminals?
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 17, 2011 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
Gotcha.
One of my business teachers in college once said that when you are interviewing accountants, the one you want is the one that says: 1+1= whatever you want it to. Didn’t know if that applied to lawyers as well.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 17, 2011 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
I was once a judge.
Though it was in an archaic society run by Mongols and I was quickly swept out of power by the unwashed masses.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Jan 17, 2011 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
....
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
by RiverRat on Jan 17, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Craig talks about move to third, say arm is
getting into the best shape of its life
Is it March 31st yet?
while we're on the topic
nice graph
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
Did the pitchers in the 50's go the the plate without bats?
Also, Whiteyball < TLRball
Is it March 31st yet?
Just weird that the 40's and 60's had 5 and 6 while the 50's had 1.
I’d think the overlap of players would level that out. (Unless the 40’s seasons were early and the 60’s were late.)
Is it March 31st yet?
I believe
that the 40s were the end of the Deans, while the 60s was the beginning of Gibson…. that accounts for a lot of it
by stevesommer05 on Jan 17, 2011 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
Was just looking that up.
Both Deans had left St. Louis by 1939.
Gibson arrived in 1959, and Curt Simmons and McDaniel only had one qualifying year (1960 by Simmons).
Just a gap in the hitting pitchers area that coincides with decade.
Is it March 31st yet?
TLR has always been fond of having his pitchers focus some energy on BP though right?
Under that assumption it would make sense that his have performed better…. or maybe I’m misremembering
by stevesommer05 on Jan 17, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
sounds about right
the 2000’s had some pretty good-hitting cardinal pitchers. Marquis being the best I think.
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
Wainwright ain't bad
and neither was Stottlemyre and one of the Benes brothers (I think).
Is it March 31st yet?
yeah
except Andy and Alan weren’t good. WW, Marquis, Stottlemyre each have 2 qualifying seasons
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
I was at the game that Benes got his 2000th and final K
last game of the 2002 season. It was one of the most emotional games I’ve ever been to. Benes got his 2000th K as the first part of a strike-‘em-out throw-’em-out inning ending double play. Benes was out of gas, but was due up next inning (5th). TLR let him walk to the plate, as the PA announced that the last K was his 2000th. He got a standing ovation that lasted minutes. He couldn’t get in the box because he said afterwards there were tears in his eyes. He must have known it would be his last game. TLR sent Wilson Delgado up to PH for him.
Then during the 7th inning stretch they played a tribute to the late Jack Buck and Darryl Kile which inspired goosebumps, smiles, cheers, and tears.
The game was scoreless until the 8th. Rolen doubled to LF, Albert was intentionaly walked, and Renteria made the Brewers pay and doubled them both home for what would be the GWRBI.
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
by albrtfn on Jan 17, 2011 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Andy Benes looked even goofier in the box than Carp.
If you don't want my foot on your throat, I'll need to hear the safe word.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za3rbK7Te7Q
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
i'm just razzing you
it’s animal collective, which i would imagine you hate
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
yeah, I can't figure out why people think that is good
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 17, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
fun, yet weird, pop sensibilities!
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
for me, I listen to Polvo when I want that
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 17, 2011 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
but you can never have too much fun pop
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
I'm really into Tame Impala - Innerspeaker
other than that, electronic music for fun stuff. for the most part I enjoy instrumental stuff. I’ve weird tastes in music.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 17, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
not familiar
i’ll have to investigate after work
listened to bits of souvlaki for the first time today. surely you like that album
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
I'll have to check that one too
we’ve stumped each other
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 17, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
classic shoegaze
kind of like loveless
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
ah it's slowdive
I know of them but haven’t gotten into them yet, cool
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 17, 2011 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
this has nothing to do with that link, but since I'm writing a paper all day
and need constant distractions, here’s another youtube link
insane.
If anyone is bored from 1-2pm
I’m going to be taking questions about the FutureRedbirds top 20 and other prospecty type things. Click Here
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
Barring a miracle, the people have spoken and you will lose the BSOML poll. How do you feel about the whole process and democracy in general?
Also, is Shelby Miller really that good?
Is it March 31st yet?
Can't answer the first question
But thrashing is yes, he is that good. Still, TINSTAAPP
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 17, 2011 1:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
WTF
Thrashing is supposed to be the second
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 17, 2011 1:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
For fucks sake
This phone was supposed to make my life easier
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 17, 2011 1:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Surely, considering the rigged results
The poll should be called off as this constitutes an attack on the democracy of VEB; Azru should declare him self interim president and be granted emergency powers to deal with the perpatrators. Whereupon Azru will refuse to cede control back to civilian government and rule as a no-party, personal dictator. He will instigate a program of economic reform designed to turn VEB into a Corporatist state. Azru will finally be removed by the military, but due to his overwhelming popularity he will be reelected as a democratic president. Unfortutantly his economic polices start to backfire and commits suicide during a second military coup.
by Aranathor on Jan 17, 2011 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
they tried to break me
sneaked over to my house and leaked all my gas out so I almost froze last night. Unfortunately for them, I’ve got a strong will and I’m not breaking. If they want to go that route, then so be it.
Also, suicide might not be a good thing to be joking about what with young zoomzoom’s recent loss.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
wasn't directed solely at you
at least 2 others made remarks about it.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
...
that’s true. especially given that my HS has had 3 suicides in the last 3 1/2 months. even if you don’t know someone, you still hate to see them end their lives by suicide.
i understand that this was a joke, but it’s still a little touchy to me.
EH #2
SIGN ALBERT!!!
I didn't mean to bring it up
I was merely detailing the reign of Getulio Vargas in Brazil, although i know that doesn’t make it any better… sorry man.
i understand, no need to apologize
it’s just a touchy subject for me right now is all.
EH #2
SIGN ALBERT!!!
It gets better
I had a friend kill himself and a roommate attempt a few months later. While I still miss the one that managed you just have to remember the good times.
by SecondHalfMatt on Jan 17, 2011 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
Robot parade! Robot parade!
Wave the flags that the robot made!
Boog woulda.
by The Continental on Jan 17, 2011 2:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The process in this instance doesn't bother me much
as I believe I’ll survive a changing of my avatar for one week.
Democracy, as a practice, is terrible and I’ve always favored a meritocracy with a heavy handed ruling class. This is truthful too. I think democracy is ridiculously stupid but I understand that it’s nigh impossible to implement a meritocratic form of government.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
Pure democracy is a terrible idea.
But I’m of the opinion that a “pure” any-kind-of-government is probably a bad idea. Pure monarchy? Terrible. Pure aristocracy? Also terrible. Hybrid forms are the way to go.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
agreed
hybrid forms are the way to go! why keep relying on the same old systems
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 17, 2011 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
I prefer a Cheerocracy
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Well too bad
Because this is a Cheer-tatorship.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Is it run by Ron "Tater Salad" White?
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
by SheckieZx on Jan 17, 2011 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I wasn't drunk in public!
I was drunk in a bar! They threw me into public.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
but it was BS
they were pulling over EVERY car driving down that particular sidewalk that night. That’s called profiling, and its WRONG…
ok I just went back and listened to the Tater Salad story again
I haven’t heard it in years. Still hilarious.
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
at first
i thought you were referring to punk in drublic and i had childhood nostalgia
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
I wonder what the punk scene in Dublin is like.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Missy's the poo
so take a big whiff.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 17, 2011 9:45 PM EST up reply actions
Weird out of context
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Cheer-tatorship.
See above.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 17, 2011 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
I prefer baseball and offensive jokes.
If you don't want my foot on your throat, I'll need to hear the safe word.
by spants on Jan 17, 2011 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'd vote for you with that platform.
Boog woulda.
by The Continental on Jan 17, 2011 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
And a good knife at that.
You really only need one good knife.
If you don't want my foot on your throat, I'll need to hear the safe word.
Man, you're morbid
You’re like a cross between Oscar Wilde and Bob Costas
by peppermartin on Jan 17, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, we don't elect women over here.
They’re lucky they even get to vote.
/puts on un-stab-able suit or armor.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
I refreshed VEB and now I can't see FanPosts from the main page.
I can see them from within a post, though. Anyone else seeing this?
If you don't want my foot on your throat, I'll need to hear the safe word.
no, i can see them, but they're way down by ruben gotay
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
You're right.
FanShots and FanPosts have been inverted.
If you don't want my foot on your throat, I'll need to hear the safe word.
Cubs trade Tom Gorzelanny to the Nationals
for three minor leaguers.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
am i supposed to care?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
the fritz approved twitter account @nicholasgrobe
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 17, 2011 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
I guess I was the only one hoping for a Snell v. Gorzo matchup
HOT PIRATE ON PIRATE ACTION
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
any word on who the minor leaguers are?
better or worse than the ones they gave up for Garza?
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
Professor - what's another word for pirate treasure?
Well, I think it’s booty! Boo-boo-boo booty! That’s what it is!
by peppermartin on Jan 17, 2011 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
[subject line clicked]
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
In the same way that we generally censor NSFW pictures of women
I’m going to ask that you don’t directly post pictures like this into a VEB thread.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
Sure
i thought it was pushing it, but couldn’t resist in future. Sorry, will be more (as in actually) tactful in future.
NSFW also including pictures of erin andrews.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
the fritz approved twitter account @nicholasgrobe
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 17, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
Don't mean to go on about this, but
Would having posted a link as something like ‘hot pirate on pirate action’ NSFW been ok? (for future reference)
Thanks bossman.
Yes.
Just mark it as NSFW. And I totally would’ve clicked on it.
If you don't want my foot on your throat, I'll need to hear the safe word.
I don't think that I am pretending I didn't.
I really liked the guy on the right’s hat jauntiness.
If you don't want my foot on your throat, I'll need to hear the safe word.
well i might just not click on your links that say NSFW anymore...
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 17, 2011 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
Sure
GDM had a link to Olivia Munn a couple days back — wasn’t completely inappropriate but it’s better to provide a link and let each person decide whether they’re in a position to access it safely.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
I'm suddenly craving cookies.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
My daughter is selling girl scout cookies :)
but they won’t be in until march. :(
Shopkeeper: But it comes with a free frogurt!
Homer: That’s good.
Shopkeeper: The frogurt is also cursed.
Homer: That’s bad.
Shopkeeper: But you get your choice of toppings.
Homer: That’s good!
Shopkeeper: The toppings contain potassium benzoate.
[Homer looks puzzled]
Shopkeeper: …That’s bad.
Homer: Can I go now?
The highlight of my baseball career came in Philadelphia's Connie Mack Stadium when I saw a fan fall out of the upper deck. When he got up and walked away, the crowd booed.
--Bob Uecker
Someone switched this doll to 'evil'!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Nats might be an interesting team this year
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 17, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
MANG VIDEO!!!
http://www.stltoday.com/news/multimedia/videos/sports/vmix_3c25f4be-21ba-11e0-991c-00127992bc8b.html
G-O-H-O-H-O-9-O!
G-O-H-O-H-O-9-O!
I think there might be some possible Albert BSOML content in here.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Yeah, I think he might have said something close to "as good shape as I've been" and I guess I couldn't hear it completely clearly
It was close, though.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
It's also hilarious that people keep trying to wedge contract questions in there
“Joe, that’s all we’re gonna talk about…” Strauss?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I still want to punch someone
every time I hear something about the “status” of negotiations.
Does anyone have directions to StL PD office?
The highlight of my baseball career came in Philadelphia's Connie Mack Stadium when I saw a fan fall out of the upper deck. When he got up and walked away, the crowd booed.
--Bob Uecker
I'm a little torn on this issue, though my instinct is to sympathize with Albert.
On the one hand, I hate to see him badgered when all parties who are actively involved have said they’re keeping it behind closed doors. I hate to think of Pujols getting ticked off at the StL media, since I want him to stay and I don’t like the idea that something like that would turn him off St. Louis. On the other hand, I can’t imagine him getting it any easier with any other markets in the country. Maybe the Twins? Would their midwest niceness trump out own? It’s not like the guy has to deal with the New York Post everyday or something.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Heyman says the Cardinals are seeking starting pitching help
what?
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
he has a drug problem
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 17, 2011 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
definitely
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 17, 2011 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
HEYMAN
Has he ever been right about anything? He is also claiming that Pujols wants AROD money and the Cards are only offering 196 million. (MLBTR)
Since nobody is talking, he must just be making shit up.
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!
Heyman also says
that St. Louis may not offer Pujols an A-Rod type of contract.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
yay! more speculation!
follow me on twitter @nickg105
the fritz approved twitter account @nicholasgrobe
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 17, 2011 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
The blog post is littered with speculation and interesting sourcing code words.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
my favorite!
follow me on twitter @nickg105
the fritz approved twitter account @nicholasgrobe
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 17, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
exactly.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
the fritz approved twitter account @nicholasgrobe
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 17, 2011 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
Not to beat a dead horse,
but heyman is an asshat.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
anybody else not read it?
I saw speculation and skipped reading it.
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 17, 2011 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
i literally haven't read a single pujols related article
all off-season. There is no news to report on this situation.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
good for you
i am trying
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 17, 2011 5:16 PM EST up reply actions
So Holliday to stay in LF, Berkman in RF
according to TLR.
And somehow, I’m indifferent.
Yes, I am certain of this.
To be honest, there's not much difference in range covered by the two positions
And they’re both more comfortable at those respective positions
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
What evidence is there of any range difference?
I’ve always been curious if there was a clearly defined, albeit small, difference there.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Doesn't Berkman
supposedly have the better arm too?
by SecondHalfMatt on Jan 17, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
This is TLR we're talking about
I fully expect Albert in RF, Berkman at 1st, Yadi at 2nd and Laird at C. At some point next season.
Seems to me that Holliday is rangier and Berkman has the better arm,
and since more hitters are right handed and the majority of hitters tend to pull when they hit the ball hard, more flies should end up in LF over the course of the season.
Enter vivaelpujols
My great wit allows me to interject that by assuming the partakers of this conversation are inbedded and perhaps romantically entangled, rather than indeed, the truthful observation that they are both platonic and standing upright. Great comedy may be produced!! -Aranathor
yes, fly balls to left
line drives to right
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
OT: Five emotions invented by the internet
Number two is definitely one I can relate to. Usually this emotion is brought on by @joestrauss.
link
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
If Pujols told the Cardinals that its 8 years/240M or bust
would you trade him, let him walk after season….or swallow the pill?
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
trade him.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
the fritz approved twitter account @nicholasgrobe
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 17, 2011 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
it's not my money
and I can’t count on dewitt spending it all or even most of it on other players, so I think I’d be in favor of it even though I know it might not be the right move.
this is true
but if it stops us from being able to have talent around him at the end…then even though its not my money, i’m not a fan
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
...
but if it stops us from being able to have talent around him at the end
There is NO reason why this is the case, as I’ve said 100 times over. If you want to replace Pujols’ production on the free agent market you are going to have to spend at least 30 million.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Jan 18, 2011 1:20 AM EST up reply actions
Couldn't swallow that...
I don’t know if he’ll allow a trade, but trading him is definitely preferable to letting him walk.
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
my thing with trading him
is the team is a contender this year with him….not so much without him….so just let him have a “contract year” performance for us and then pick up two draft picks….GOD THAT WOULD SUCK ASS
But trading him would kill our season…unless craig and berkman had a crazy nice year
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
I don't get why it would kill our season...
Pujols to Kendry Morales is only a loss of 3 wins. If we do it at the end of July it’s a one win decline. I’d trade Pujols today for Morales, who will only make $4 million or so for 2011. That’s a -3 win move and provides $12 million in savings. We could take the $12 million and upgrade 2nd, SS, 3rd, or Lohse’s spot through a trade and take almost no hit at all in 2011.
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
Morales is more than -3 wins
The guy has one season under his belt of 4.5 (supported in part by the +7.5 UZR), and was off that pace before nuking his leg last year.
Not afraid to nitpick
1.3 wins in 200 plate appearances...
plus he maybe/possibly could play rightfield in a pinch, which would provide some insurance against Berkman not being able to hack it out there.
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
Even if it's a -4 win move...
it saves us from contract hell and provides funds to upgrade any number of positions where we suck. Subtracting a couple wins in 2011, 2012, 2013 is easily worth it to avoid $30M a year for 36-39 year old Pujols.
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
You are putting way more stock in morales's one good season
Than i’m willing too
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 17, 2011 6:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Having said that
Were pujols to make it impossible to sign for less than 7-8/200-240, and the angels were offering morales, trout, and segura…I would not be able to say no
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 17, 2011 6:14 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Of course
Albert can say no, so it may all be a moot point
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 17, 2011 6:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah I don't know...
if he feels the Cardinals have made a good faith offer and they just can’t do a quarter of a billion, maybe he allows a trade as a goodwill gesture.
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
oh geez...
I wouldn’t count on that. Trout alone is way more valuable than a year of Pujols.
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
Agreed
But the angels are desperate…and we don’t have to trade albert
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 17, 2011 6:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Overall...
we need to get farther down on the risk/reward curve. I just don’t want the team to rise and fall on four guys who, if healthy, are worth 20-25 WAR and cost $80 million. That’s just a recipe for a lot of disappointing seasons.
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
work is slow today
I’ve had 3 conseutive evaluations cancel….thats unheard of…right scoot?
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
damn people
I just did a little PRN work today. Went to 2 old ladies houses and forgot to have them sign the computer. I hate screwing up as much as I hate people not showing up for their appointments.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
are you doing home health?
i thought you were at a VA
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
nevermind, just re-read your comment
homehealth PTs make bank….but i would not be able to do that kind of work full time
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
yeah
I make about half as much doing home health for about 10 visits every 2 weeks as I do working at the VA, and I make an above average salary at the VA. If I could tolerate the HH bs I’d do it full time. But, I’d go crazy in about 3 weeks doing it full time.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Is being a PT at the VA
Considered a government job?
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 17, 2011 6:16 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Most definitely a government job
and qualifies under the public service student loan forgiveness program.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
That's sweet
But the pubs are about to freeze or even cut government salaries
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 17, 2011 6:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
with fear of veering into politics
I’m pretty sure this is mainly a pr thing. The recent “freeze” merely locked the rates for the next 2 years. I’ll still get my yearly increases, it will just be at the rate they are currently set at and not at an increased rate.
Also, being the only PT in our facility full time, I’m not worried one bit about my salary decreasing.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Also
“Oh boo hoo, I don’t get a raise for two years.”
It’s called life. We don’t all get raises every fucking year.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
I'm a contractor.
I got my first raise since 2006 last year.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
well excuse me, your honor
also, i wasn’t really complaining. And its not a yearly raise every year. It is fairly standard to get a step increase each of the first 2 years though.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I know
and I’m far from happy about the pay freeze, I just thought it was funny to see all the interviews of federal employees who were like “HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO FEED MY KIDS?!?!” I don’t know, with the same salary you have now and great job security?
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
literally everyone at the facility I work in is overpaid
except for me, of course
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Fantastic job security
They should make a reality show called “Try To Get A Government Employee Fired!” Think of all the crazy stuff people could come up with, and almost all of them would still fail. It’d be the U.S. version of Ninja Warrior (well, they already made that, but whatevs).
Also, I’m not sure how the Republicans can do much of substance right now when they only control the house and the president has veto powers.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
The Teixeira idea sounds like a nice compromise...
if the players were on board.
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
i would have to think hard about that
seems like a good deal, but cano away from yankee stadium scares me
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
not the tex for pujols and a prospect deal right
we better be getting something more than just tex and his bloated ass contract
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
well yea
but it feels bloated because its not our contract…dammit its a bad contract unless we gave it out!
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
I'd definitely go for it
assuming there’s a clause that would allow a trade in case his knees go out. If his legs go out, he would still be a very dangerous hitter as a DH in the AL.
by peppermartin on Jan 17, 2011 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
Can some of that be deferred?
Let’s say 25 mil for 8 years, then 5-10 mil per the next 4-8 years, then we’d have a deal.
I would offer him 10 years/260M
although I don’t see pujols is a man that would give the cards an ultimatum like that.
The highlight of my baseball career came in Philadelphia's Connie Mack Stadium when I saw a fan fall out of the upper deck. When he got up and walked away, the crowd booed.
--Bob Uecker
terrible
Trade him – cry myself to sleep
Let him walk – cry myself to sleep
Swallow the pill – LOTS of trying to rationalize the deal
I’d prefer the last one – I just can’t see Pujols in another uniform
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 17, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
greatest player of our generation.
i don’t think $30mm is asking too much, and i expect it will be close to that in the end.
anything over that, though, you have to reconsider, unless we’re talking about 6-7 years.
You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein
this team is going to be so bad
in the latter half of the decade
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
I have gotten to the point where I think they have to extend him,
and then boost payroll by $15MM.
If the Cardinals do extend him, and it’s for less than $28MM annually and less than 9 years, I’m going to be happy.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
this is where I'm at too
I think the cardinals need to take a hard look at what the phillies are doing.
Or fake Lohse's death.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Jan 17, 2011 6:03 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
motocross is a dangerous sport
things can be progressing nicely the whole time, and then…
by DanUpBaby on Jan 17, 2011 6:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
somebody "forgot" to make sure his dirtbike chain was properly greased
"I want to make 'Mo' a genius."
by FredbirdisaDork on Jan 17, 2011 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
this isn't a smart philosohpy...
Phillies have done some dumb shit lately
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 17, 2011 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
i believe he is referring to their increase in payroll over the last several years
Somewhere, either here or BtB, there was a pretty recent post showing the parallels between the Phils and Cards payrolls. They were pretty similar for a period of years, then ours plateaued and theirs continued to rise.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
What we don't know is how smart the respective "business" side of the franchises are
Yes, they have increased payroll. Is that the right thing to do, is the question to ask
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Doesn't appear they are too concerned
since they stepped out and signed Lee. But yes, the business is important, and something that we will not know the answer to.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
does anybody remember the episode of the simpson's where bart and lisa went to camp Krusty?
Where bart was, at one point, rocking back and forth chanting “Krusty is coming… Krusty is coming… Krusty is coming”
I find myself similarly chanting “Dewitt is a smart business man and will get this done… Dewitt is a smart business man and will get this done… Dewitt is a smart business man and will get this done”
Maybe I need to rock back and forth
"I want to make 'Mo' a genius."
by FredbirdisaDork on Jan 17, 2011 6:06 PM EST up reply actions
this is my stance
I know that the Cards are privately held and don’t open their books or anything, and do still have stadium finance issues hanging over them, and don’t have the market size or advertising revenue of many other high-payroll teams….and I don’t want to seem like a “open deWallet guy” even though he is one of the wealthiest owners in baseball…but I just find it completely inconceivable that they can’t afford to raise payroll by that much. That they would prefer not to, sure. But I can;t believe they don;t have the means.
i'd be interested in trading him
but i doubt that he would do the cardinals that favor. he can veto any trade
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
I think I'd sign him
When I did my analysis of reasons not to sign Pujols, the main one that had clout was the position scarcity argument (according to the poll, and to my mind, too): you are better off putting the big money into Utley (2B) than into a 1B.
The biggest problem with that argument is just how scarce those players are. All the real gems get locked up for years, until the downside of their career, and they never get traded. You just can’t find them, and we don’t develop them.
If I knew of a young, big-talent SS or 2B we could trade for or splash a bunch of money on (not in the Uggla range, in the Utley range), then I would say to consider it. But I just don’t. So, I think you pay Pujols.
Play ball!
by IL and StL Fan on Jan 17, 2011 10:56 PM EST up reply actions
There is no positional scarcity in WAR
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Jan 18, 2011 1:21 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly
It already adjusts for that. And Pujols is still so far ahead of the curve that it’s pretty amazing when I stop and really let it sink in. How can a first basemen be that much better than everyone else? By being historically great, year after year, that’s how.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
i appreciate
the amount of thought and research, effort and just plain time it took to put together this article. i think it’s well done. i just think the whole argument is a bit misguided. stats go a long way towards explaining lots of things. i just don’t think “clutch” is one of them. i believe “clutch” falls into the intangible category. i would argue that no matter whether it’s physically real phenomena or not, the idea that someone is clutch does exist in people’s heads. maybe david ortiz isn’t going to come through more often in clutch situations than the next guy but when he steps up to bat you can’t tell me the pitcher is not affected remembering those game winning home runs he saw on the highlight reel. these are not robots, these are human beings and their emotions play a huge role in how they perform. or say the bases are loaded and the pitcher gets nervous knowing ortiz (or whoever) is on deck and walks the winning run in, etc. i don’t know if enos slaughter was “clutch” or if he even had much of a clutch reputation (thank god i’m not that old) but i hate to see his legend statted away.
by iaintsentimental on Jan 17, 2011 5:48 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
wouldn't the pitcher being affected by ortiz in clutch situations
show up in ortiz’s numbers?
by DanUpBaby on Jan 17, 2011 5:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
are you arguing that the pitcher being intimidated by ortiz enhances ortiz's numbers?
Aren’t most professional athletes arrogant enough to believe that they can get anybody out? I don’t mean that in a bad way… I just think that most, if not all, of those guys have to have a super high level of absurd self-confidence/arrogance to make it as far as the professional ranks.
"I want to make 'Mo' a genius."
by FredbirdisaDork on Jan 17, 2011 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not arguing that
I’m arguing that if “you can’t tell me the pitcher is not affected remembering those game winning home runs he saw on the highlight reel” then, if that is a meaningful advantage, it would show up in his numbers.
i see what you mean
I think that these numbers are best relegated (as somebody stated above) to the intangibles column. As an athlete, I remember being in situations where I felt pressure during games. I don’t discount that there are certain people who can cope with the pressure of those situations better than others. I think that one of the best arguments I read above was that maybe “clutch” describes not whithering to pressure as compared to rising up to the challenge. It is a very difficult thing to quantify but I do think that the level of pressure does affect performance (be it the pitcher facing Ortiz or Ortiz himself).
"I want to make 'Mo' a genius."
by FredbirdisaDork on Jan 17, 2011 6:20 PM EST up reply actions
I think you're just being sentimental.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
by RiverRat on Jan 17, 2011 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Nice
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 17, 2011 6:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I tend to agree with this
but it’s really hard to prove that a hitter with a good reputation offensively will not always make certain pitchers nervous. but you’re right about clutch in the sense that it’s difficult to represent statistically. too much luck involved, though an interesting thought might be, are pitcher’s able to be more clutch or un-clutch than hitters?
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 17, 2011 6:39 PM EST up reply actions
Why can't the pitcher be clutch too?
Boog woulda.
by The Continental on Jan 17, 2011 6:43 PM EST up reply actions
Your claim...
Clutch exists. Give us some evidence that rises above anecdotal speculation and we’ll listen. SABRmetric minded analysts have looked high and low for clutch abilities and have found no significant evidence to suggest players have to ability to change their level of play. Guys with good numbers in what have traditionally been defined as clutch situations generally have luck working for them and don’t have enough PA’s to avoid small sample size qualifiers. This road has been hoed quite a bit.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 17, 2011 11:07 PM EST up reply actions
UGH
Hot Stove has begun their “Albert Pujols in alternate jerseys” segment. Bad Photoshop FTW!
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jan 17, 2011 6:12 PM EST reply actions
Would it be fair to say if we don't work out a contract
The org botched this royally?
We knew this was coming. If the weren’t willing to pony up, he should have been traded last offseason when he had even more value
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
by VolsnCards5 on Jan 17, 2011 6:26 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I don't think so
unless he ends up signing for like 25M/yr elsewhere. If Pujols and his team are dead set on a number (say 8/240) and the Cardinals aren’t willing to accommodate that and another team is, I don’t really blame them.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
He had limited NTC at that point,
I believe he had to make a list of 5 teams he would approve a trade to.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
yeah
I think that’s what it was
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 17, 2011 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
If it comes out that we are lowballing him, then there could be hell to pay
If not, then it’s just sad.
There is no happy ending if Albert leaves in my opinion.
Re-signing him may not be the most financially appealing option, but it may be the least bad one taking everything under consideration.
by bailorg on Jan 17, 2011 7:09 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
except he wouldn't have been traded last off-season
since we were the overwhelming favorites to win the division.
OTOH, if he isn’t resigned, I will be heartbroken, and will want to know why. I personally think it will be a tragedy if Albert gives up his chance to be a lifelong cardinal (and all that goes along with that) over a few million dollars a year, today, but he might think otherwise.
The most important thing to keep in mind is that you can buy a lot of WAR for $35M/year. I think it will be a hugely botched deal if we sign him for more than $30M/year for more than 5 years.
Not sure I've seen dumber baseball words: "Brendan Ryan became expendable after (Cardinals) acquired infielder Ryan Theriot." -Joe Posnanski
I don't see how we could get more production out of the free agent market then with Pujols
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Jan 18, 2011 3:21 AM EST up reply actions
But it's not 6:00 AM youro time yet
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
maybe he wants to get a good sleep?
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 17, 2011 9:07 PM EST up reply actions
To make this fair,
scoot should put up a poll and let the community vote for your avatar.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
by RiverRat on Jan 17, 2011 8:03 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
heh
I’ll start searching and post some pics in threads. You can use your recs as votes.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
...
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Jan 17, 2011 10:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This is what you do with your life?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Yes!
AZ made fun of a shirt i was wearing in 1996 on facebook today. I feel as if he deserves this.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Jan 17, 2011 10:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This is what happens when you let Nike build a Div 1 basketball facility.
WTF is this?
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
It looks like 10000 students vomited on it on tv.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Truest representation of the college experience that I've ever seen.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
by azruavatar on Jan 17, 2011 9:29 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I love that...
I don’t get why more schools don’t brand themselves in silly ways like Oregon and Boise State. The kids they’re trying to attract are supremely susceptible to this kind of thing
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
Sure, but it makes their product unwatchable.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
The things I did to your mom last night were unwatchable
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Jan 17, 2011 9:21 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Aren't you engaged?
For shame sir!
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
How do you expect him to have any morals,
knowing his mother raised him.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I, for one, thought it would have some kind of scared straight effect
I mean…the carnal debasements he must have witnessed…one would think it would instill a greater respect for one self and one’s body
Rui isn't your usual case subject.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 17, 2011 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
also, I hope she had a good time.
She doesn’t get out much anymore, the wheel chair makes it hard to get around.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
by RiverRat on Jan 17, 2011 9:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That's weird
She got around just fine last night
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Jan 17, 2011 9:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Dude, have some respect.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
women with physical handicaps need love too!
but they gotta pay…giggity.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
yeah never watched a game on that...
lived a block away from the place back in the day, but they had a pretty boring court back then iirc…. look at BSU – who would’ve dreamed a blue field would be a draw.
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
el fanshot
http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2011/1/17/1941191/goolds-guide-to-jupiter-spring-training
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Sauce speaks
Last year, I think I mixed in my two-seamer a lot more, he said. “I got to where I was little bit more comfortable with it. I was throwing it and I wasn’t up there babying it. But probably [I’ll throw] my four-seamer, two-seamer, cutter and then I guess my slider-curve, whatever thing that is. I’ll throw it up there every now and then.”
Boog woulda.
by The Continental on Jan 17, 2011 10:11 PM EST reply actions
Same link, different blurb
The dinner was touted as both a toast to and a roast of Cardinals manager Tony La Russa, … former St. Louis pitcher Steve Kline was among those who garnered hearty laughs for some occasionally bawdy digs at La Russa.
Kline, … held nothing back. He mused about potential other occupations for La Russa and noted that the manager could never play Santa Claus because he doesn’t “put up with annoying kids,” such as recently traded shortstop Brendan Ryan. He was also one of two roasters to poke La Russa for his 2007 arrest for driving under the influence of alcohol.
Can we get Kliner in the booth somehow? He’d be way more fun than Al.
Boog woulda.
by The Continental on Jan 17, 2011 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
I'm still giggeling from Ricky Gervais zinger on Tim Allen last night
Gervais also managed to alienate Tom Hanks and Tim Allen, who presented an award together and were there to celebrate the success of Toy Story 3, for which they provide voices.
When Gervais introduced them, he announced: “What can I say about our next two presenters? The first is an actor, producer, writer and director whose movies have grossed over $3.5bn at the box office. He’s won two Academy Awards and three Golden Globes for his powerful and varied performances starring in such films as Philadelphia, Forrest Gump, Castaway, Apollo 13 and Saving Private Ryan. The other is Tim Allen.”
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
giggel
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
by prophetjohn on Jan 17, 2011 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
+1
for Kline in the booth
The highlight of my baseball career came in Philadelphia's Connie Mack Stadium when I saw a fan fall out of the upper deck. When he got up and walked away, the crowd booed.
--Bob Uecker
The Second Pitch
ought to glossary.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jan 18, 2011 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
which one is azru?
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Jan 17, 2011 10:35 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
*robot voice* DONT HOLD MY HAND. IT IS CREEPY.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
OH MY GOD what is he doing with those kids?!
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Jan 18, 2011 1:23 AM EST up reply actions
a candidate
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Jan 17, 2011 10:48 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
I vote for the pic Aranathor posted.
Boog woulda.
by The Continental on Jan 17, 2011 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
If you want to stick with Bender, how about
Boog woulda.
by The Continental on Jan 17, 2011 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
saw it. . . probably doesn't fly
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
You need to put out the vexed signal and get some original shop work done.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
He's been pretty busy, IIRC
but, vexed, if you are out there and want to shop something together for Azru’s new avatar, be my guest. Something that capitalizes on his hate of children would be nice and of course we need a robot.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I still think the album cover
from Queen’s News from the World album is the best in capturing heartless robot destruction.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 17, 2011 11:55 PM EST up reply actions
Can't it just be a giant picture that says
I <3 WCBW?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
This effort will be flawed,
because I will rec them all, and cody will rec them all several times.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
if that happens
I’ll just pick the one I like best
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
it's just an effort to up his rec total
you’re playing right into his hands!
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
by prophetjohn on Jan 17, 2011 10:58 PM EST up reply actions
staying in the bender theme
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Jan 17, 2011 10:53 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
hows about this?
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Jan 17, 2011 11:05 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
absolutely
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
by prophetjohn on Jan 17, 2011 11:07 PM EST up reply actions
Pretty good.
There’s a bunch with a similar theme. Google Young Stormtroopers in Love.
Boog woulda.
by The Continental on Jan 17, 2011 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
the baron's version
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Jan 17, 2011 11:10 PM EST reply actions 9 recs
I have to get in on this
First let me suggest the spats version of Az.
But if you’re really into the toaster love.
(Spoiler Alert) But as we all know azruavatar is really human so just use his most recent photo available.
"There are three things the average man thinks he can do better than anybody else: build a fire, run a hotel and manage a baseball team."- Rocky Bridges
by That's a Winner on Jan 18, 2011 1:47 AM EST up reply actions
the second robo is entirely to adorable to be azru
the picture of bender is wonderful
by YesWeOquendo on Jan 18, 2011 1:52 AM EST up reply actions
whaddup VEB?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
the fritz approved twitter account @nicholasgrobe
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 17, 2011 11:23 PM EST reply actions
well, on my day off from school
I have a terrible cough and feel like shit… sweet
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 17, 2011 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
sounds like another day off tomorrow.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
the fritz approved twitter account @nicholasgrobe
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 17, 2011 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
i guess that would be smart
depends on if I feel as crappy as I did when I woke up this morning
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 17, 2011 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
i would anyway.
senior year. you don’t need to go to school.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
the fritz approved twitter account @nicholasgrobe
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 17, 2011 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
i actually have work to do though
anyway I’m gonna get my shit done and then leave before school starts, come back home, and sleep
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Jan 17, 2011 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
same
i need to be going to bed soon.
freaking have to get up around 7:30 or 8 for class
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
by prophetjohn on Jan 18, 2011 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
sucks for both of you.
i’m a week in already. 9 class tomorrow. not that bad.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
the fritz approved twitter account @nicholasgrobe
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 18, 2011 12:08 AM EST up reply actions
Haha
Graduated and unemployed, fuckers!
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
eh.
i’d rather be in school than graduated and unemployed.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
the fritz approved twitter account @nicholasgrobe
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 18, 2011 12:26 AM EST up reply actions
Finals this week
I’m really not in the mood to memorize court cases.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Jan 18, 2011 1:24 AM EST up reply actions
i miss you VEB
no, no, not you
and you, yes you! kindly get your hand off my thigh
but the rest of you i miss you terribly. i hope this responsibility stuff pays off. good night
A free pound of bacon with every test drive
Oh thanks for giving us an update on your first day
Jerk
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
He's a working man now.
He doesn’t have time for petty basement dwellers.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 18, 2011 12:24 AM EST up reply actions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YfDeOa3LTE
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
Damn.
I can’t believe I made it thru 35 seconds of that before I decided it wasn’t going to get better.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jan 18, 2011 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
Well, I decided to check out WCBW's history cause I was not here for it
funny stuff – wonder what he’d say now about Lohse?
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
I've seen the band Clutch at least 6 times
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 18, 2011 1:58 AM EST reply actions
well i just bowled the best set of games of my life, won at poker, and did it all while out drinking my buddies
by YesWeOquendo on Jan 18, 2011 2:18 AM EST up reply actions
and clutch is a pretty good band
i dig “arcadia” especially the backup guitar (really, in most of their tracks), which i usaully don’t really notice
i feel they’re really subtle with their sound even though they’re so f’n lound. maybe even a bit to much, it feels kind of wasted
by YesWeOquendo on Jan 18, 2011 2:34 AM EST up reply actions
nah
they’re drummer is very very subtle, more complex than he sounds. I totally dig it though. the vocals can be offputting since they sound gruff but he’s got some simultaneously thought provoking and funny lyrics. they are all really good musicians, I got a nice pic of them a few years back.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 18, 2011 2:47 AM EST up reply actions
you drank your buddies
vampire!
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 18, 2011 2:50 AM EST up reply actions
Clutch
Methinks most sabremetricians, professional, or otherwise, overstate their dismissal of “clutch”. It’s not that it doesn’t exist, personal experience should tell us all that, particularly those of us that are good test-takers or bad test-takers, or good public speakers, or poor ones.
It’s that “clutch” can’t be measured to be a statistically significant contributor to MLB performance. In all likelihood, it is not a statistically significant contributor to MLB performance. There are several reason for this:
- any one performance in baseball is contingent upon: (i) the performance of (a) the batter, (b) the pitcher, and © in many occasions, one or more fielders, and (ii) whole host of factors that are not completely in control of any of (a), (b), or © – there are too many factors for which to control, many of which (bat speed, ball speed when hit, fielder positioning) aren’t even quantifiable (yet)
- “clutch” isn’t guaranteed to be constant for any one player at all times
- small sample size
- [CAUTION: CONJECTURE AHEAD] in all likelihood, MLB players are already on the upper end of the spectrum when it comes to “clutch”, because if not, they would not be there – performing in front of scouts with a career on the line is no less of a pressure situation than in the playoffs, is it not?
So, sabremetrics is right in that “clutch” should not be something that fron offices use to evaluate players. It is almost certainly right that “clutch” does not significantly affect outcomes on the field. To the extent that sabremetricians overstate their case that “clutch” does not exist, however, they are doing their argument more harm than good.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 18, 2011 11:49 AM EST reply actions
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