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Rasmus Trade Options

If Colby Rasmus were to be traded, what would be a reasonable return?

Note:I don't want to see Rasmus traded.  Sending his level of cost-controlled talent out of town seems irresponsible to me.  Doing it because a bad manager (and Tony LaRussa has been a bad manager this season) can't work with him would make me sick.

If Rasmus would be traded, though, what kinds of deals might be reasonable?

Rasmus is listed as #14 in Dave Cameron's 2010 Trade Value rankings (just above David Wright and just below Robinson Cano -- link)

The reasons are simple.  He plays a premium defensive position well, he can hit, he has not yet reached his probable peak-production years, and he is under cheap team control for four more years.

The Cardinals would need to get something similar in return (especially in terms of premium position and cost control), in order to make a trade reasonable.  We don't have needs in the easy-to-fill defensive spots (1B, LF, RF), but we have glaring needs in the more difficult infield positions (3B, 2B, SS) and in starting pitching.  Minus Rasmus, of course, we would also have a need in CF (which may or may not be able to be filled well by internal options, such as Jay).

In this post, I look at the players we might be interested in who rank below Rasmus according to Cameron. He may or may not know what he is talking about, but his list is at least a decent place to start.  This ranking came out in mid-July, and I would expect some re-ordering by now. 

I've excluded anyone with a contract valued at more than $5M per year, as well as any player not under team control for at least the next three years.  The numbers in front of the names indicate Cameron's Trade Value ranking.  The numbers in parentheses following the names are their 2009 and 2010 WAR according to FanGraphs.

SP

#21 Ubaldo Jimenez  (5.7, 5.3)

#27 Clayton Kershaw (4.2, 3.8)

#29 David Price  (1.6, 3.6)

#36 Tommy Hanson  (2.6, 3.5)

#39 James Shields  (4.1, 2.0)

#44 Brian Matusz  (0.8, 1.9)

#46 Mat Latos  (0.1, 3.3)

#48 Ricky Romero  (2.7, 3.6)

#49 Phil Hughes  (2.2, 2.1)

2B

#47 Martin Prado  (3.1, 4.0)

SS

#32 Elvis Andrus  (3.1, 1.7)

For reference, here is Colby's line:

CF

#14 Colby Rasmus  (2.3, 2.6)

The list is obviously heavy on starting pitching, with young starters seen as valuable commodities.  With respect to CF, 3B, 2B, and SS, everyone listed below Rasmus (except for Andrus and Prado) makes a lot of money-or they have an untradeable contract like Troy Tulowitzki.  Teams lock these players up quickly and keep them (perhaps a lesson we should learn from...).

On the good side, one can see why Rasmus would be a valuable trade commodity.  The performance, position, and price are a rare combination.  On the bad side, getting what we need from him may not be easy, if we want a position player. 

In my opinion, there is not enough difference in value between Elvis Andrus and Brendan Ryan to justify that trade.  It would just not be a Rasmus-sized increase.  Martin Prado is different.  He would be a significant upgrade, if you believe that all-performance-no-tools players can sustain excellence.  He is arbitration eligible 2011-2013.  Atlanta's current starting CF is Rick Ankiel.

Regarding pitching, I have to express doubt that a number of the players listed would be traded by their teams for Rasmus.  Pitching is also much more of a crapshoot than a position player because of injury risk.  However, if the Rays want to ship us David Price....

What think you?  Again, I do not want to see Rasmus traded.  However, if he does need to go, what would be the best (reasonable) option?

Poll
What trade, that would benefit the Cardinals, do you think reasonably could be made?
Rasmus for SP (name below)
39 votes
Rasmus for Andrus
20 votes
Rasmus for Prado
50 votes
Rasmus for other (name below)
10 votes
TLR for Jim Riggleman
182 votes

301 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 191 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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I could live with Rasmus for Prado

still don’t really advocate the trade however

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 6, 2010 3:00 AM EDT reply actions  

Rasmus for no-one.

TLR. Goner. This will be a dead issue by November.

Mark. My. Words.

Foresight is a terrible thing to have.

St. Louis Game Time . . . I need another beer.
And I can also write things in 140 characters or fewer.

by Donut King on Sep 6, 2010 4:00 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I agree...

… TLR is toast. I’ve backed him in the past, but now is the time. 4 straight years of fading late, perpetually fighting with at least one of the best players on the team, plus letting his emotions get the best of his line-up decisions. Time to cut the cord. I think he thinks that too.

by kindred on Sep 6, 2010 7:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Same here

I have tried to back TLR for too long. His ego gets in the way of the game. So long, Tony.

Baseball makes the world go 'round, or at least in my world it does.

by Whiteyballer on Sep 6, 2010 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

this

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 6, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't mind trading him for any of these guys

barring Andrus (don’t think he’s a massive upgrade over Ryan, and I’d rather get a bit more offense back if we go for a positional player), Phil Hughes and MAYBE Ricky Romero. I’m not a collosal Matusz fan either but he’s young enough and cost-controlled enough that I think that’d be a more or less fair trade.

I’d then install Jay as starting CF and go out and get a good RF.

Not that I’d want to trade Rasmus, but I don’t think any of these players would be a disaster in return. I just worry that Mozeliak hasn’t fared well in trades and would struggle to get this sort of return.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 6, 2010 8:46 AM EDT reply actions  

We have a great RF in ludwick

I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill

by Evilfrog on Sep 6, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

We have had a great RF in ludwick

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 6, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think...

… at this point it’s safe to say that 2008 was an anomaly. his OPS that year was 150 points higher than any other season in his career. this year he’s down to .769 (it was .827 before the trade), he’s 32 years old, and has a long injury history. he’s a nice player, but by no means is he “great”. He’s had exactly one season above 2.2 WAR in his career. He has the 18th-best OPS for RFs, 15th-best WAR. He’s been a little bit better than Cody freaking Ross this year. In other words, he’s an average RF whose defense will slip as he continues to age.

by kindred on Sep 6, 2010 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

His LD% was through the proverbial roof in 2008, too.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Sep 6, 2010 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

But he's still a fine player

just not worth what he’ll make next season.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Sep 6, 2010 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think he's probably basically worth what he'll make next season

he’s a 2-3 WAR guy when healthy, who has struggled with significant injuries, who’ll probably make $8-9m or something. That’s probably about what he’d cost as a FA. Ergo, he probably doesn’t have a lot of surplus value (well, any) or trade value next year.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 7, 2010 5:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

i'll bet...

… he costs in more arb than he would as a FA. as a FA, i bet he’d only sign something like 2/$10. In arb he’ll probably get around $8.

by kindred on Sep 7, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd look at TB

They have some good young infielders and SP’s they might be willing to discuss.

Maybe Prado and Schaffer(sp) from Atlanta?

I’m sure Boston and the Yanks could offer something of value.

Mayber Toronto? They have Escobar, Bautista, and maybe Hill. Not sure what their prospects look like.

I think there is value to be had if we must go this route. There isn’t a bigger TLR fan out there, but I’m also concerned (well, not everybody is), that this may be the thing that pushes him out of STL. Talk about bad timing. I see no way in hell AP signs a contract this offseason if we are letting Tony walk, and replacing him. AP is probably going to want to see whom we hire, and how he likes him. That also may not fix the problem Colby appears to have with a lot of his veteran teammates. If guys like Albert, Carp, Waino, and Molina think Raz was a big part of Tony leaving, what in the world makes you think they’ll want to play with him next year?

This could be an interesting offseason. The Tony/Raz drama. The AP attempted resigning. Can we do anything with Lohse? What do we do with 2B and 3B in particular? What do we do about a 4th OF if we keep Colby? Is this the year we finally move KMac to the rotation? Did Freese do enough to have the 3B job if healthy? Tons of questions to be answered.

by Stanley1 on Sep 6, 2010 9:45 AM EDT reply actions  

im sorry where are you getting this?
I see no way in hell AP signs a contract this offseason if we are letting Tony walk, and replacing him. AP is probably going to want to see whom we hire, and how he likes him. That also may not fix the problem Colby appears to have with a lot of his veteran teammates. If guys like Albert, Carp, Waino, and Molina think Raz was a big part of Tony leaving, what in the world makes you think they’ll want to play with him next year?

1. Why Albert won’t sign if Tony leaves? You do realize that NO other team has TLR as manager so its basically square one as far as managers are concerned.
2. He has a problem with the veterans? Please elaborate on this…..
3. Carp is leaving anyway after next year, his contract is astronomical, Waino is under contract till 2013 (unless he falls out of Top 5 in Cy)… and still wanna know why they are loving TLR so much that they would leave if he left?

by stlcardsfan4 on Sep 8, 2010 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pretty sure waino's deal is a team option

that auto-vests if he’s top 5 Cy in various years. Ergo, we can CHOOSE to keep him until 2013 regardless, but we’re obligated to keep him if the option vests.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 10, 2010 7:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Trade with the Rangers

We can trade Rasmus to the Rangers for Martin Perez and Tanner Scheppers.

Imagine a rotation in a few years of:

Waino
Garcia
Miller
Perez

by thefordhamflash on Sep 6, 2010 11:39 AM EDT reply actions  

The Braves wouldn't trade Prado

simply because we have no MLB-ready talent at 2nd or 3rd in the farm system. We have some solid young guys, but they’re all in low-A ball.

"Based on stereotypes that are totally untrue and I do not agree with, you would maybe-not be a very good driver..."

"Oh man am I a woman?!"

by Scott Coleman on Sep 6, 2010 2:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Maybe it'd be a larger deal

Raz and Skip/Greene for Prado +

It’s an option.

by Stanley1 on Sep 6, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think a larger deal might be necessary

If we did trade with Atlanta, I would hope that we could get more than just Prado for Rasmus. Prado is a nice find, Rasmus is the kind of player teams build around (not that our current manager knows that).

Prado plus some of Atlanta’s vaunted SP depth would make the trade look a lot nicer. If you are playing Ankiel at CF while trying to win a division (and are not blinded by puppy-love, the way Cardinals fans/management are), you are pretty desperate for some talent. Rasmus would solve that problem for a long time.

Play ball!

by IL and StL Fan on Sep 6, 2010 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really like Kris Medlen

do you think you guys would trade him plus a hitting prospect? That’s a deal I might consider, though obviously the fact he’s having TJ really hurts his value. TBH Prado plus Medlen would be a fine haul but I doubt you give that up! There’s really not a prospect we’d want as a centrepiece from your org IMO, as we’re kinda in win-now mode.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 6, 2010 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Medlen is such a little gamer, but the TJS does really hurt his value. His change-up could seriously be as good as Lincecum’s or Santana’s one day, but I doubt the Cards would make a move for a guy who’ll probably won’t start pitching again until the 2012 season.

The two pitchers who could be aces by 2012 or 2013 are Julio Teheran (STATS) and Randall Delgado (STATS). I know neither won’t be ready for Opening Day 2011, but Teheran could be up my mid-season if you really wanted to rush him. I’m not sure the Braves would deal Teheran seeing how he’s dominated A-ball, high-A and AA as an 18-year old, but who knows. Rasmus is a stud.

For Bobby.

by Scott Coleman on Sep 6, 2010 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Like I said, it's probably tough to trade for something that won't help right now

we’re in win-now mode and really need to replace Rasmus with another above-average piece (either in the rotation, middle infield, or CF) next year, as we’ve probably only got the cash to afford one decent free agent. If Medlen was healthy I’d consider dealing Rasmus for him + a prospect (maybe Delgado if there’s a chance we could get him, as you said I doubt Teheran is readily available except as a centrepiece), Medlen’s then our #4 starter next year and we can go out and spend $10m or so on getting either a decent 2B or someone else who can play the outfield with a good bat.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 7, 2010 5:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

The Braves can play Omar Infante at 2B

They wouldn’t miss Prado that much.

Play ball!

by IL and StL Fan on Sep 6, 2010 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm a Braves fan

if you couldn’t tell by the Bobby Cox avatar and how I referred to “we” as the Braves.

Take my word for it: Omar Infante is nothing compared to Prado. Omar’s having a great season, but there’s a reason he’s a career utility guy. Prado is one of the better pure hitters in all of baseball.

For Bobby.

by Scott Coleman on Sep 6, 2010 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

And if Chipper doesn’t come back in 2011 (I personally don’t think he will, but we’ll see and that’s a whole different story.) Prado is our only in-house option for 3rd. To be honest, he’s a better defender there too.

For Bobby.

by Scott Coleman on Sep 7, 2010 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oops...

We (the Cardinals) arguably don’t have any 2B or 3B MLB-ready talent in the minors, either. But some at lower levels (AA and below). Sorry for the mis-identification.

Like I said, I don’t know how realistic Cameron’s rankings are, and there are lots of factors besides pure value that are involved (such as the ones you point out).

I have to think, though, that if you were to wake up to a headline of “Rasmus for Prado” this November, you would be excited. No?

If not, wait until Ankiel whiffs on a few more sliders.

Play ball!

by IL and StL Fan on Sep 7, 2010 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh my goodness. Don’t even remind me of that shithead. I already have to spend 3 hours a day watching him. I didn’t think it was possible to dislike a player more than Jeff Francoeur. Rick Ankiel changed that for me after two weeks. How in the world did he have that season for you guys back in 2008?

Rasmus is obviously a huge talent and I’d love him on the Braves, but I really don’t think the Braves would trade him for Rasmus, especially after we released Kelly Johnson last off-season. The middle-infield is probably the biggest weak spot in the organization, and trading Prado would absolutely kill it.

What about Jair Jurrjens? A Jurrjens and Rasmus deal was proposed the other day on Talking Chop, and it sounded interesting. Of course a prospect or two would be exchanged as well.

For Bobby.

by Scott Coleman on Sep 7, 2010 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

re: Ankiel

people threw him occasional fastballs in 2008. Now all he gets is a steady diet of breaking stuff in the dirt and heaters up round his eyes, both of which he’ll consistently and ineffectually wave his bat at.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 7, 2010 5:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

re: Jurrjens

what’s his arby status? Rasmus has 4 years of team control left. I’d say Jurrjens, as a player, is probably as good at this point, but hasn’t he been around a few years now? If he’s into his arbitration years, I’d probably want Jurrjens and a prospect, tbh.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 7, 2010 5:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Looks like he has three years of arbitration left before he becomes a FA.

For Bobby.

by Scott Coleman on Sep 7, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

re: Jurrjens and Ankiel

Jurrjens throws an xFIP of 4.3-4.4. I like him, but he’s not what I want for Rasmus — at least not straight-up. Despite the brouhaha here, Rasmus is good, at a premium position, really cheap and about to enter his prime years. Jurrjens would be our #4, just like he is for you when everyone is healthy. Prado and Jurrjens would be too much to ask, but I would be dissapointed in trading for either without a nice prospect coming too. Just my opinion.

Rick Ankiel has two outstanding talents. If you throw him a league-average fastball in the strike zone, he can hit it really hard. And, he can throw 94-mph strikes to the plate from center field. Unfortunately, he can’t do that from the pitcher’s mound anymore, and most pitchers have heard of a curve ball.

Play ball!

by IL and StL Fan on Sep 7, 2010 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Omar Infante

After our (the Cardinals’) MIF situation the past several years, he looks awful good. He hits decently and doesn’t stink with the glove.

After a few years of Ramen noodles and Kraft Dinner, just about any full meal deal starts to look good….

Play ball!

by IL and StL Fan on Sep 7, 2010 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

prado seems like a buy-high kind of guy

I haven’t seen him play much, but he’s a guy without much power who never had an OPS over .800 in the minor leagues, then suddenly springs into the majors with a couple of 3-4 WAR seasons, fed by a very high BABIP- just seems too good to be true. If I was Mo and considering trading something as valuable as Rasmus for him, I’d want to do a ton of research.

He has a very interesting set of “similar players” on B-R- almost all of them were either journeymen or players from the 20’s and 30’s (and one guy from 1880!). Not saying that really means anything, but he seems to be a pretty unique player.

Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers

by SleepyCA on Sep 7, 2010 2:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Prado is also 27.

I feel it is worth mentioning.

by spants on Sep 7, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

something's obvious here

the fact that TLR & colby can’t exist together,

personally, i feel that this might turn into another TLR-rolen situation, if TLR resigns with the team. i would much rather see tony gone than raz gone.

@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa

by zoomzoomj88 on Sep 6, 2010 7:44 PM EDT reply actions  

I voted for a SP

as long as it was Price. Otherwise, I’m not sure. I also resisted voting for “Riggleman for TLR” because the post said “if we have to move Colby”.

My hope is that Colby starts nearly every day from here out, he and Tony kiss and make up in the off-season, Albert re-signs, and all is right with the world in 2011. Of course I’d be OK with Tony deciding to retire, too.

by ArkansasTravs on Sep 6, 2010 11:53 PM EDT reply actions  

david?

get outta here

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter

by prophetjohn on Sep 8, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

This actually doesn't surprise me...

Go look at his peripherals, pj, and you’ll understand why…

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 8, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

My suggestion

A little history and perspective…

…Colby for Kent Bottenfield

by BigJawnMize on Sep 7, 2010 8:28 AM EDT reply actions  

it's only fair...

Chris Carpenter for Manager
"He’s in his own world out there. He says he doesn’t cuss. I disagree." - Skip Schumaker, on Jason Motte

by BVHeck on Sep 10, 2010 2:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

The Rays would be the best team to trade with, by far,

and the package I’d look at would be Hellickson and Brignac. Hellickson is a bona fide #1 starter with an organization full of bona-fide #1 or #2 starters. Brignac is a great defender with a decent bat (think Elvis Andrus with a more pop and fewer steals) and I think his stock has dropped a little with his poor offensive showing this seaosn.

Even if we had to throw in a minor league prospect (and maybe take back B.J. Upton, who hits Arb 2 next year, in the trade), this would be the best return for Rasmus. The question is how much the Rays want to give up for a Super 2 player who is going to get expensive quickly when they already have a 25 year old stud CF with strikeout problems.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 7, 2010 10:00 AM EDT reply actions  

Pretty sure I read somewhere that Colby isn't a super 2

which increases his value a bit.

In any case, I agree with your assessment that the rays would be an ideal target. I’m not sure about Brignac’s bat, yet; he hasn’t hit above AA and is coming off three straight years of pretty poor hitting (in AAA and MLB). I’m not convinced yet that he’s not just another Boog. I think I’d be happier with Upton and Hellickson, that would be a superb haul, even if Upton hasn’t hit that well the last couple of years and is starting to get a bit more expensive.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 7, 2010 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, he's not

although his service time was mishandled pretty badly, so he’ll be arb-eligible next year. Because we started him in MLB last year, we only have him for 4 more years instead of 5, so he’s not as valuable as he might have been if we had started him at AAA last year and left him there for a few weeks.

Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers

by SleepyCA on Sep 7, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

correct

but I’m of the opinion that Mo had a plan to sign him for one of those Longoria type deals when he started Rasmus on the Big Club last year.

by Waxing Gibbous on Sep 7, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

so, we would have had 7 years of team control?

i don’t think it works like that

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter

by prophetjohn on Sep 8, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes, it does.

Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers

by SleepyCA on Sep 8, 2010 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

not quite 7 years, but 6.99 or so

a player has to have a full 6 years of service time before he is a free agent. If he hits the end of year 6 with 5.99 years of service time, the club controls him for the next year and the salary is determined by arbitration.

This is one of the reasons Longoria signed the contract that he signed- TB threatened to leave him in the minors long enough to guarantee a 7th year of control.

Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers

by SleepyCA on Sep 8, 2010 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

here's a link

that talks about the rule, using Strasburg as an example.

link

If a team parks a player in the minor leagues for at least 20 days to begin the season, it can delay his free agency by one year. Teams looking to save money go a step further and keep players down for about two months, which prevents them from gaining the Super 2 status that gives the top 17 percent of any service class an extra year of salary arbitration.

IE, we traded a year of Rasmus’ prime (age 28 season!) for 20 days in MLB last year.

Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers

by SleepyCA on Sep 8, 2010 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

it’s something that both teams and players hate, so it should be easy to make it go away.

Still, it’s a shame we didn’t take advantage of it.

Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers

by SleepyCA on Sep 9, 2010 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

thanks

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter

by prophetjohn on Sep 11, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can't see Hellickson as a bonafide #1 starter

I see him more as a fairly polished 2-3 starter with good command. But I think him or Garza would be good in a package with maybe Zobrist (I’m not sold on Brignac’s bat, his OPS in the minors the past couple years has been around 700).

If knowledge is the key, then just show me the lock.
Got the scrawny legs but I move just like Lou Brock.

by purple_haze on Sep 7, 2010 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Explain why he's not a #1 starter..

Hellickson’s an A to A- grade in every scouting report I see. Mid-90’s fastball, plus breaking ball, plus change. Career minor league FIP below 3.00 with a K/9 around 10, a BB/9 around 2.2, and a K/BB of nearly 4.5. And he’s only 22.

If he’s not a #1 starter prototype, I don’t even know what is. His only downside might be that he’s been a fly ball pitcher, but with his arsenal of pitches, I can’t see any reason why he can’t become more of a groundball thrower.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 8, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Garza's getting expensive, Hellickson's got 5 team-controlled years left.

I think I’d much rather have Hellickson, although Garza would be a nice #2 as well.

I agree a bit on Brignac, but Hellickson is a nice centre piece and I think you can argue brignac’s got more ceiling than Boog and at least gives us a guy who’s likely to be an average shortstop for the next few years. That’s not a bad haul for Rasmus.

Zobrist is under team control for the next 4 years at about $5m per year (on average, it’s a bit backloaded). The fourth year is a team option. He’ll be 33 when that’s done.

Rasmus has another 4 years of team control left after this one, and I bet he isn’t going to be much cheaper than $5m/yr on average. He’s younger and will probably a bit better than Zobrist at the end of the deal, but Zobrist’s positional flexibility makes him very valuable from our point of view. He can play 2B every day, RF if required (for instance, in a double-platoon situation) and can just about fake SS or CF in a real pinch. He’s also a switch-hitter who can hit equally well from either side, more or less. Despite a down year with a low BABIP, he’s still a star player in my view.

If we swapped Rasmus for Zobrist straight up, I don’t think it’d be a bad move. My only concern is Zobrist’s age, and more specifically the age he’ll be in year 4 of the deal, although the fact that year is a team option may help lessen the risk a little. If we could get Zobrist plus anything else it’d be a steal.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 8, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Rays need to do some cost cutting and will be looking to trim salary in the offseason.

Rasmus for B.J. Upton, who is about to get expensive by the Rays standards and has had clubhouse issues of his own, plus a middle infielder (Rodriguez, Bartlett or Brignac are realistic targets as Rodriguez is over 30, Bartlett has 4+ years service time and will be getting relatively expensive, and Brignac has been an offensive bust since AA) might be doable. I don’t see them trading Zobrist, who is clearly the better offensive player of the group of infielders, can play outfield, and is locked up through 2013 with club options for 2014 and 2015.

Rasmus for Upton plus a pitcher, either a minor leaguer (the Rays have several promising arms in the minors…much more so than the Cardinals) or someone like Garza, who will be the odd man out given his contract status, service time, and certain increase in cost, also might be doable, although I would think the Rays would want more than just Rasmus for this to happen. Garza is still a very good pitcher that is relatively cheap (compared to, say, Kyle Lohse) and under team control so his value is quite high. Hellickson is going nowhere and is the reason Garza is expendible. The Rays other Major League starters (Davis, Price, Shields, and Niemann) are very cheap still and/or locked up for several more years.

Rasmus is most likely (although not definitively in my opinion) superior to Upton offensively but Upton is the better defender, so probably a wash on the field. Their ages aren’t substantively different. The salary relief without significant dropoff in production is what the Rays will covet. An outfield of Jennings, Rasmus, and Zobrist would be a pretty good one, with two of the three being young, cost controlled players. And two quality major league players, including a comparable center fielder, would be a pretty good haul for Rasmus.

That said, I say keep Razmataz, jettison LaRussa, and apply that $4+ million to the acquisition of a second baseman, third baseman, or right fielder.

by CURVEBALL on Sep 8, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Meh

I dunno about Ras for Upton & one of their lesser middle infielders (let’s say Brignac). Upton’s starting to get pricey and he’s not as good as Rasmus IMO and I dunno if any of those three are huge improvements over Boog – Brignac has the talent to be, but he’s kinda sucked for a while now, and Bartlett has only got one year of control left (although he’s better than Boog, I’d say). Seems like a very middling package for one of the top 20-30 commodities in baseball.

Maybe Upton + Garza isn’t too bad, as garza’s a legit #2-level starter and I think would give us the best rotation in the NL next year. That said, he’s only got two years of team control left and will probably cost something like $6m next year and nearer $9m in 2012. Garza + Upton probably means we don’t really have any money left to pick up anything else next year, and doesn’t give us much to look forward to after the next two years. That said, as a win-now move it’s defensible. I’d probably rather add at least one long-term guy, though.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 8, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was thinking of a middle infielder

to play 2B. Ours are atrocious. I think Ryan should be the starting SS next year.

And I was wrong about Rodriguez – he is 25 and will have 1 year of service time after this season, so he seems less likely than the others to be traded. All three of the Rays middle infielders are good defensively and play SS as well as 2B. Our current 2B cannot do this (and should never be allowed to).

Two years of Garza in his prime for $15 million would be a steal. Same goes for Upton. And the Cardinals can afford to pay unless they break the bank on Pujols. They are not the Rays. Of course, 4 more years of Rasmus prior to free agency would also be a steal.

I think the Cardinals are pretty much always in win now mode. If they weren’t, the fan base would be up in arms. Losing is not popular with the fans of St. Louis. As long as they draft well, this will not irreparably damage the franchise. And I think they are moving toward being a younger team with more home grown talent, despite TLR’s affinity for washed up veterans (another reason why I would not mind seeing TLR leave).

by CURVEBALL on Sep 8, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Garza's worth more than $7.5m/yr, not sure Upton is, though

Upton’s only been about average for two years now, and most of that value is in his defense.

I reckon Garza would make something like $10-12m/yr on the open market, so, whilst his last two years of arby are cheap, they’re not a complete steal.

I agree that someone to play 2B would be good, but I’m not convinced there’s anyone on the Rays (other than Zobrist) that can do that better than guys like Felipe Lopez or O-Dog, who are perennially available for like <$5m on one year deals. I think Bartlett and Brignac have more value at SS, and we already have a guy there who I’m thinking is about average.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 10, 2010 7:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think Phil Hughes would be the most likely.

Rasmus would be awesome cranking HR down the RF line in Yankee Stadium. Yanks are a bit short on pitching, but won’t be post-Cliff Lee’s new contract.

Could Colby Rasmus hit a ball so hard that even he couldn't catch it?

by Cardinals645 on Sep 7, 2010 1:40 PM EDT reply actions  

hmm..

Colby Rasmus and Tyler Greene for Jose Tabata and Neil Walker? Colby or McCutcheon would have to slide over to left or right, though

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Sep 7, 2010 11:30 PM EDT reply actions  

No thanks.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 8, 2010 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

While Colby seems like a prima donna...

…good managers adjust their managerial styles to their personnel, and not the other way around.

by thepainguy on Sep 8, 2010 10:44 AM EDT reply actions  

Can't treat one guy differently.....

Unless that one guy has Albert’s talents.

There are plenty of coaches, though mostly in other sports, that have run off MUCH better talent then Colby F’ing Rasmus, and done just fine. You need to look no further than the NBA and NFL.

by Stanley1 on Sep 8, 2010 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

sure you can

that’s what good managers do, they adapt

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 8, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

The same can be said about good players.....

It’s a circular argument, at best.

There are good managers that get along with everybody, and good managers that send good players that don’t “fit in” packing.

There are bad managers that get along with everybody, and bad managers that send good players that don’t “fit in” packing.

by Stanley1 on Sep 8, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure, there has to be a meeting in the middle, there has to be some compromise

But judging by what we’re hearing, one side is willing to compromise on some things (Rasmus) and the other isn’t (La Russa) and the one who’s not willing to compromise is holding his experience and resume over the other one’s head in order to make this happen.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 8, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

What is Raz compromising on?

We don’t even know the specifics of why they don’t get along, and yet you know what each is willing to do to make the situation work?

by Stanley1 on Sep 8, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

all I need to know is that Tony has driven really good players out of town before

and if he does it again with Raz, well, he sucks

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 8, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Playing time, for one,

and if you believe his dad, and I do on some occasions (less so on others), he’s tried really hard to fit in with that clubhouse and he’s made some stupid kid mistakes that nearly all young players make.

I don’t know the peculiars of the situation, but I do know that one of them isn’t happy and the other isn’t happy about that guy not being happy. And basically just telling the unhappy guy to “suck it up because this is the way it is in the big leagues, boy.” That’s exactly how it comes off and it’s exactly how I would expect LaRussa to react. That’s going to work on some guys, but on immature guys who’ve been coddled their whole lives and who have domineering fathers, what you’re really doing is setting yourself up for condescension and dis-respect. Gee, that’s exactly what’s happened.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 8, 2010 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

So hypothetically.....

TLR and the organization tell Colby he needs to realize his potential, and try to become the well-rounded hitter they all think he can be. You know, don’t try to yank the ball all the time, try to draw a walk when you are leading off the 9th down 2, improve your bunting…..normal baseball shit. Colby says sure, whatever, but never really improves, or more importantly, never appears to be trying to improve or impliment this stuff.

THAT is what I see the problem is. And if it’s true, it’s a portion of the reason why he loses starts. Well, that and he doesn’t hit lefties as well as some of our righties off the bench do. But I digress.

You are saying that Tony and the org should just let Colby do his thing, even though he is hurting both himself and the team by not being ever better than he is, or giving it a full effort?

by Stanley1 on Sep 8, 2010 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you really believe Colby is an .850 OPS hitter

for an entire season, either this year or in the immediate future, you also probably believed Ryan Ludwick would easily replicate his 2009 season. Point is, in nearly two full seasons, Raz has had one giant HR month (this year), and one giant BB month (this year). Nothing about the other months in either season leads me to believe either of those numbers are duplicable in the immediate future. That means his current OPS is on it’s way down. How low will it go? Who knows. I’d argue it could be lower if he didn’t get protected from lefties like he does.

And to call Jim Edmonds a pull hitter is ridiculous. Just b/c you can, and do, yank balls out to your pull field, doesn’t make you a pull hitter. Jimmy hit PLENTY of balls the other way. PLENTY.

by Stanley1 on Sep 9, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ludwick's 2009 season wasn't all that great

I’m guessing you meant 2008. anyway, what in your infinite wisdom, type of hitter is Rasmus REALLY? is he more of an .800 OPS hitter? still valuable and shouldn’t be run off the team.

you are clearly just siding with Tony for whatever reason you think is necessary. but just give up the argument. you’re wrong.

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 9, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's just it.....

There is no “right” or “wrong” on this. If you and a few others would get that through your heads, there’d probably be less need for discussions like this. It is crazy that you still think there is a simple right/wrong answer to this stuff.

I have no idea exactly where Raz will end up. But I know he had a monster HR month, and a monster BB walk, both out of line with his minor league numbers and other ML numbers, and since then, his OPS has been on the way down. And like I said, that is also getting protected against lefties. His “overall” numbers take a bigger hit if he doesn’t sit out those AB’s, most likely.

by Stanley1 on Sep 9, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

There's no right or wrong, you're correct.

There’s informed opinion and un-informed opinion. You’re uninformed. All your arguments to this point have been uninformed. You sound like someone who’s repeating all the shit their high school coach told them and applying it to a situation in which it does not apply.

For the record, 75% of all Jim Edmonds hits came to the right of dead-center field. 85% of all his home runs came from right of center field. HE WAS A PULL HITTER. Period. There’s nothing wrong with being a pull hitter either. The best hitter who ever was (Ted Williams) was a dead pull hitter for his entire career. Why stop doing something you’re really good at to try and do something you aren’t good at? That’s the definition of stupidity.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 9, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions   3 recs

I think Rasmus a .830 - .870 OPS guy who plays an above average center field and has good speed.

That’s a 4-5 WAR player, which is very, very valuable. I don’t care if he ever hits .300 and I don’t care if he slaps the ball to left field. If he can walk at an 11%+ rate and hit 20 homers a year while playing +5 defense or better in CF, I’m perfectly fine with that. You know why? BECAUSE THERE’S ONLY ABOUT 5 GUYS IN THE LAST 10 YEARS CAPABLE OF DOING THAT EVERY YEAR.

I expected Ludwick to be better than his 2009 season, because his 2009 season wasn’t very good. Even with his second half swoon he’s been better than he was last year. His 2008 was not repeatable, and if you’ve been around VEB at all, you’d know that very few of us ever expected those type of numbers from him again because they were unsustainable. I personally thought he would have a very good first half this year because he was the one guy that I thought Big Mac would have a positive effect on — I was wrong about that but I wasn’t way off either: His walks were up and his approach was better, it just didn’t help his power numbers like I thought it would.

Protected from lefties? You realize that he’s hitting better against lefties than the guys that we’ve played to “protect” him from lefties, right? No, of course you don’t, because you don’t look up splits or anything else, you just spout bullshit and then tell us we’re nitpicking when we pick your lazy arguments apart. He has no platoon split his entire minor league career. He’s got a very small platoon split this season. The reason he gets platooned is because TLR has to over manage lineups, not because he can’t hit left handed pitching. Hell, in April his splits against lefties were better than his splits against RIGHT HANDERS.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 9, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

since you mentioned it,

I’m curious

………he was the one guy that I thought Big Mac would have a positive effect on…….

Who are the people that Big Mac has had a positive effect on?
I seriously don’t know. Hitting this year has sucked overall, or should I say run production has sucked. They’re related.
 There’s been some discussion here about Big Mac but not a lot.
But there’s been lots of discussion about hitting and run production problems.
 I don’t know what goes on behind the scenes so I don’t really know if Big Mac is a plus or a minus or a push.
I lean toward minus because of the obvious, hitting is worse this year than last year and it’s not because of just one player.
Hitting was better before McGwire.
Personally, I’d rather have a guy like Rod Carew as a hitting coach than Babe Ruth or Mark Mcgwire. I don’t think a guy like Pujols or Holliday and that ilk need much coaching but McGwire was a power hitter and I don’t know if he can help a guy get a single? His thing is driving the ball. Can he help a guy like Ryan slap a low pitch past 1st base, that sort of thing? How much of that did McGwire ever try to do?
We sure have seen a lot of men left on base for lack of a base hit.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Sep 10, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hard to say

You can’t really give him credit for Albert or Holliday, and the guys he’s been working with have had pretty terrible years (Ryan and Schumaker, although Skip has been pretty much his 2008 self since the ASB). I was dubious that all our hitting problems last year were the fault of the hitting coach at the time, but I did think that a change would be a positive thing after all the struggles last year.

I don’t think it much matters what kind of hitter you were (slappy singles guy or power hitter) as long as you understand the approach. I actually think I’d rather have a guy like Cal Ripken, who struggled with hitting slumps his whole career, changed all kinds of things to get his swing going again, etc. rather than a really talented hitter like Mac or Carew, because they simply can’t teach fundamentals as well because they were so talented that they could get away with things that a normal baseball player can’t get away with.

All I can say is that I agree with the approach that Mac has about hitting — be patient, work counts, get a good pitch to hit, be aggressive on your pitch. Whether that translates into success for our hitters — I have no idea how the gauge that. I will say that when we were going well offensively in April, most of the lineup was adhering to these principles.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 10, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's a good point about Ripkin.

I hadn’t thought about it that way.
And although I agree about the really talented guys not making good coaches, there’s got to be some exceptions, of course. I think it has more to do with the ability to teach. Some can and some can’t, regardless of how talented they are.
From what I understand, Bob Gibson didn’t make a good pitching coach because he had little patience with lesser talented players…which was everybody.
 Ted Williams might have been a great hitting coach. He was certainly eager to teach anybody anytime about hitting.
 The other part of it may be that some players just aren’t as receptive to coaching, either at all, or from certain coaches.

be patient, work counts, get a good pitch to hit, be aggressive on your pitch
that’s some pretty fundamental stuff, but maybe it doesn’t get applied. Maybe that’s where the coaching comes in.
 I’d like to be a fly on the wall sometimes.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Sep 11, 2010 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ted Williams would have been a terrible hitting coach.

Have you read his book? What’s amazing about the book is that Williams is talking about doing stuff fundamentally that Ted Williams never did as a hitter. The same goes for guys like Charlie Lau — they talk about fundamentals of hitters like Brett, but when you watch Brett in a live game, they don’t do those things.

Williams loved to talk hitting with great hitters like Gwynn, Boggs, Big Mac, etc. He wouldn’t have had the patience or understanding to talk to an average hitter about how to improve. A little like Magic Johnson coaching basketball…

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 13, 2010 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know,

I’ve heard and read a lot of times that Ted would talk to anybody, and talk their ear off if they let him.
I don’t know much about Lau except for watching him play.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Sep 13, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

apparently,

that hasn’t been good enough, though.
What average do you mean? MLB, League, Division or Cardinals?
Whatever average it is it’s not been enough, or maybe not consistent enough.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Sep 11, 2010 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

League average

The average NL team scores 4.38 runs per game, when I last checked a couple of days ago (before the Braves series), the Cardinals were averaging 4.48 runs per game.

As for consistency, it doesn’t matter. Even if the Cardinals were more inconsistent than the average offense (which I doubt) there is no evidence that more consistency = more wins.

Fire Tony La Russa

by vivaelpujols on Sep 12, 2010 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

True point about consistency

also, we really should be able to win a weak division with even a barely above-average offense with the pitching we’ve got. Games like last night have really killed us. We’ve not been blown out badly for most of the year, but I’d be willing to bet we’ve lost far more 1 and 2-run games than we’ve won, whereas the Reds have done the opposite.

I suspect a bit of that is luck, and in one or two cases I feel that the games have been badly managed this year (although I imagine most fans around the league can claim that now and again about their ballclub).

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 12, 2010 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

crazily

the reds are 24-23 in one run games and the cardinals are 18-22. So, 5.5 games of the Red’s 7 game lead are attributable to 1 run games.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Sep 12, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

let me re-phrase

what I mean by consistency is spreading some of that run production a little more evenly, over more games. And I think that could result in a few more wins.
If you score runs in bunches a lot and then get anemic, you might have a good run production stat but not enough wins. You can play a 3 game series, win the first game 7-2, lose 2-1 and 4-2.
for the series you outscore them 10-8 (3.3 per game) and lose 2 out of three. If the run production would have been spread out (being more consistant, actually scoring 3 per game) you could have won 2 out of three.
 You’re right that run production doesn’t wins, I wasn’t trying to say that.
 I’m saying that if the cardinals were more consistently (on a daily basis) and score more evenly, they’d be in better shape. They could have a few more wins to show for it.
4.48 is just an average but if the cardinals actually scored 4.8 every game they’d be a better team.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Sep 13, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

But how do you do this? Specifically, how do you coach players to "spread the runs out evenly"?

Doesn’t it stand to reason that the more runs we score, the more runs we’re likely to score evenly, because, over time, the run distributions on a per game basis will equal out? That’s what VEP is trying to point out here — there’s absolutely no way to “balance” how many runs you score, you just go out there and try to score as many runs as possible.

Now, you could make the case that the Cardinals consistency problems are due to a lot of hitters with low OBP’s, and I’d tend to agree with that. I think if you have a lot of guys that have trouble getting on base, you’re going to have problems scoring runs on a consistent basis from game to game, but might score a ton of runs on one game where everyone just happens to play well. So I guess you could say that having more high OBP players on your team will equal more runs scored consistently, but I think we knew that already.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 13, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Colby has actually been an average hitter versus lefties this year. (.321 wOBA, 103 wRC+)

In fact, he’s been better against lefties this year than either poopy Stavinoha (.273, 70) and putrid Randy Winn (.167, -2 Holy Shit That Is Bad).
In fact, he has been better at hitting lefties this year than Ryan Ludwick has been (.284, 79, I know he has a reverse split but that’s still pretty bad). Jon Jay and his .380 BABIP versus lefties is better, but they should not be directly competing for playing time for the most part.
So, nobody on the bench in the outfield hits better against lefties than Colby.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Sep 9, 2010 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

hey you started the circle argument

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 8, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

dude has no idea what it takes to manage people

it’s like soonerfan redux

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 8, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, that's pretty clear

Reminds me of another middle manager in my company, actually. He burns through about 6 new employees on a team of 12 every year. A few have ended up on my team or the team of another really good manager’s team and have become very successful employees because they’re able to blend in and be themselves rather than be regimented into exactly the lemming that he wants them to be. All the guys that are successful on his team are Type A personalities that can take a good ass-chewing on occasion but also are basically self-motivated, self-starting individuals who need very little management at all.

He’s really good with the easiest employees to get along with and impossible to deal with for pretty much anyone else.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 8, 2010 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Funny

I have several sucessful “managing” stories I could tell about work. But that would be lame.

TLR hasn’t stuck around this long b/c he doesn’t know how to manage a team. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and Tony has found at least one sucessful way. There is no arguing that.

by Stanley1 on Sep 8, 2010 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

really, he's found two. maybe 3.

1) Manage a team on which PED use is endemic

2) Manage a team whose payroll is significantly higher than 4 of the other 5 teams in your division

3) manage a team that got lucky and drafted albert pujols in the 13th round.

Even with all of that, his average finish in his career has been 2.8, basically 3rd place. Not exactly my idea of a irreplaceable asset.

Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers

by SleepyCA on Sep 8, 2010 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Some pretty bitter glasses you view

your favorite organization through. Way to bust all over STL.

Name more than a handful of teams that don’t fit the description above?

Yanks and Boston spend too much, they suck. Any team with anybody associated with PED’s sucks. Anybody that happened to draft a guy, or hell, even sign a guy that was a stud, sucks.

There aren’t too many teams out there winning WS titles with low payrolls, no star players, and to a lesser extent, no PED worries. But good try.

by Stanley1 on Sep 8, 2010 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

point is, TLR is eminently replaceable.

Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers

by SleepyCA on Sep 8, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

So is Albert.....

Doesn’t mean I want him to leave though.

by Stanley1 on Sep 8, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

so Tony = Albert?

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 8, 2010 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not what I said.....

But that comparison would be a lot closer than the Colby = MJ one I read last week. lol

by Stanley1 on Sep 8, 2010 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's not what happened.

Someone mentioned MJ in support of the idea that athletes are competitive, selfish, crazed individuals who are obsessed with winning. Nobody compared their talent levels.

by spants on Sep 9, 2010 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes you did -- you said they were both replaceable, which implies they have similar value.

I would also really enjoy making a bet with you about which guy would cost the Cardinals more wins, Tony or Albert. I’ll take Albert for $1000. Takers?

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 9, 2010 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

*sigh*

Every player is replaceable. Ozzie. Willie. Jack Clark. Brian Jordan. Big Mac. Pujols. Holliday. Same way pitchers are replaceable. How quickly you can replace them might be another question, but there isn’t a single player or coach that isn’t replaceable.

That said, this team is built, for the most part, to be coached by Tony and Dave Duncan. What happenes if both leave next year, and whomever we bring in has a totally different philosophy? It shouldn’t jack with guys like Albert and Holliday much, but hey, what if it does? What if Carp and Waino don’t like the things the new pitching coach teaches? What happens if Molina doesn’t like the pitching coach, or the new coach doesn’t value catching defense/game calling?

I’m not saying I don’t see some good that could come from a change, I do. I’m just saying when a manager has been somewhere as long as Tony has, chances are, there is going to be a pretty decent turnaround time with any manager. And in a few years, our “studs” will be on the decline and we’ll be rebuilding.

IF management is going to pay Pujols and still spend to improve the rest of the team, I want the current staff back for 1-2 years. Management needs to fix the lineup though. Tony cannot turn Feliz, Ryan, Skip, Greene, Craig, Miles, or Lopez into quality bats. Maybe Freese coming back helps. I don’t know. At this point, we have a talent shortage though.

by Stanley1 on Sep 9, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

We have a talent shortage because Tony insists on having a talent shortage
  • Tony wanted Aaron Miles, and he’s the worst player in baseball.
  • Tony wanted a decent defensive third baseman, and Feliz is that, but he’s the worst offensive infielder in the majors not named Aaron Miles.
  • Tony keeps playing Nick Stavinoha over someone like Allen Craig and Joe Mather.
  • Tony kept Brian Anderson off the roster because he favored a “veteran” backup catcher.
  • Tony wanted Randy Winn on the roster rather than continuing to go with Jon Jay back in June when he was hitting the cover off the ball.
  • Tony has continued to keep Tyler Greene in the minors even though he is the best utility option for this team.
  • Tony and Duncan have favored Mike MacDougal’s horrible fucking performance over better pitchers like Fernando Salas.
  • Tony and Duncan wanted Jeff Suppan over available internal options that we either needed to use or cut bait with and might have been better than Jeff Suppan.
  • Tony thought a 4th starter was more important than offense, so we dealt Ludwick to get Westbrook.

Seriously, I could go on and on and on and on. Tony has the team he wants or at least has wanted in the past. It’s full of veteran grit and guys who “play the right way”. It’s just not good enough to win, even with TLR “the Genius” in charge of managing it.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 9, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

And as bad as Craig has been

His wOBA is almost as good as Stavinoha’s. Oh, and they both have two home runs. But pinch hit home runs from your knees count for more!
Sorry, this was really just a rant against Stavinoha.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Sep 10, 2010 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

You said he wasn't a quality bat.

Right here:

Tony cannot turn Feliz, Ryan, Skip, Greene, Craig, Miles, or Lopez into quality bats.

Let’s also keep in mind that Felipe Lopez was a 4.6 WAR player last year who had a .340ish wOBA. He is having a very poor season, but he was a “quality” bat last year. Skip was a league average hitter last year and has been a league average hitter since the break (league average being around.330 wOBA or so). I totally agree on Miles and Feliz, but those are both guys that Tony wanted on the ballclub. This is what we keep trying to tell you. Tony can complain about the level of talent, but it’s the talent that he wanted on the team.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 10, 2010 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Um.....

That comment was talking about the present. Actually, it was talking about the past…..as in, it wasn’t Tony’s fault that those guys weren’t quality bats this season, to date.

Nothing about that comment applied to past seasons, or future seasons. Sorry for the confusion.

by Stanley1 on Sep 10, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

But he's been a quality bat in the past

so he should get an opportunity to play to prove whether he can or cannot hit major league pitching and be a quality bat in the future. Instead we’ve played Randy Winn, who will be a minor league bench coach in the very near future, and Nick Stavinoha, who’s had enough AB’s in the past two seasons to demonstrate that he is not a major league hitter. Sometimes you just have to play the young talent and hope it produces. Allen Craig has nothing left to prove at AAA and should get the opportunity to show his talent at the major league level unless we have better players at his position. As I’ve just shown, we haven’t had those players all season.

Our starting outfield every night should be Holliday in LF, Rasmus in CF, and Jay in RF. EVERY GAME. That outfield is one of the best defensive OF in the big leagues and provides better offense than any other player combination that could conceivably play out there.

You clearly do not understand anything about sample sizes or how past production should or should not influence future production. You’re basically saying that, at present, Allen Craig is not a quality bat because he has not produced like a quality bat in limited time this season, even though his past 2 years have produced quality numbers and AAA and he continues to produce in AAA when he gets sent down to play there. He sucks right now, but hasn’t sucked in the past and might not suck in the future? At what point are you going to realize that your philosophy makes no sense?

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 10, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

So.....

Stavi can rake in AAA, but isn’t worth squat at the ML level, even as a bench guy, b/c his limited AB’s in two years have proven that.

But Craig rakes in AAA, and we should forget his small sample size at the ML level, and just stick him out there to sink or swim?

I know Stavi’s had more AB’s than Craig, but both are pretty darn small. But YOU like Craig better, so you twist it to look like he is the better option, when he may or may not be.

by Stanley1 on Sep 10, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do I really have to spell it out for you?

Stavinoha has 260 MLB PA’s and has a 61 OPS+. 61. SIXTY ONE O P S PLUS. How long should I keep rolling his fat ass out there in the corner outfield (where he is an awful defensive player by the way) before I cut the guy loose? 500 PA’s? Should I wait until he’s eligible for arbitration? You tell me, since you’re the fucking expert here apparently.

In 2126 minor league PA’s, Nick Stavinoha is hitting .306/.351/.479/.830. In 2133 minor league PA’s Allen Craig is hitting .308/.370/.518/.888.

  • Craig has a higher OPS.
  • Craig has a higher OBP.
  • Craig has a higher SLG.
  • Craig has a higher AVG.
  • Craig has hit more homers, more extra base hits, and has drawn more walks.
  • Craig has a higher walk rate, which has been shown to translate more than any other rate stat to major league success.
  • Craig is a league average outfield based on scouting and stats, Stavinoha is like a fat post with legs in the outfield.

Now — WHO’S THE BETTER PLAYER BASED ON THOSE STATISTICS. I think it’s pretty obvious. So, no, I don’t apologize for liking Allen Craig better as a hitter, there’s more to like about Allen Craig.

Guess what else? Craig is THREE YEARS YOUNGER than Stavinoha. So, tell me again, why in the hell would I want Nick Stavinoha over Allen Craig? Why? Give me one good reason why Nick Stavinoha deserves to play over Allen Craig?

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 10, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

I'm amazed there's an argument about who is better, Craig or Stavino

unbelievable

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 13, 2010 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

I know

People who kill guys like Boog, who have actual defensive value and have better offensive stats than Stav, actually DEFENDING playing Stav in a corner outfield spot. It’s truly unbelievable.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 13, 2010 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

I might put Stav in the outfield....

is it’s the 17th inning, maybe.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Sep 13, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, you are a troll.

Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers

by SleepyCA on Sep 9, 2010 4:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Because you post something ridiculous

I’m a troll?

Whatever dude. You don’t like what I say, don’t read it, or don’t engage me. It’s a blog, about baseball. We have different opinions. Get over yourself.

by Stanley1 on Sep 9, 2010 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Your opinions are fine

Doesn’t mean that ours are ridiculous or that we’re not fans because we point out the inherent advantages that Tony LaRussa has had with this organization that has helped him win so many games.

You’re acting like a troll because you keep making these personal accusations.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 9, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not the one calling people trolls

that is about as personal as it gets.

And you are right, you are allowed to have your opinion. Just like I am. I shouldn’t have to keep it to myself b/c the good old boys all disagree with me.

by Stanley1 on Sep 9, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

wow

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 9, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

We don't disagree with you, we disagree with your method

Which is making subjective statements that can be disproved easily by factual representation of statistics.

Your arguments are weak, lazy, and uninformed, and you’re unwilling to be criticized without getting all upset about it.

If you want to keep living in the dark, that’s fine, but don’t get all pissy when someone turns the light on an exposes your arrogant laziness.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 9, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Whatever dude

The above post is bullshit. You are one of the worst on the board about using a stat, or an argument, when it proves your point, and finding a reason not to use it when it disproves your point. Or making a big deal about some predictive stat, but completely ignoring what actually fucking happened on the field.

Aaron Miles may not be a very good baseball player. But to continually call him the worst player in baseball, when he isn’t even the worst player on the current roster, is LAME, and reaks of bias. You want to talk about how good a player might be in the future, FINE, your metrics may help you out some there. But you can’t use a stat that doesn’t measure results, and try to conclude about what a player has produced this season to date. I don’t give a fuck if Miles is lucky as hell, TO DATE…..Miles has helped this team on offense more than Lopez, Molina, Stav, Craig, Ryan, and Feliz. FACT. Hate his short ass all you want, but he has out OPS’d all those guys on the season. Does that mean he’ll do it going forward? No. But I’m sick and fucking tired of reading how HE is the reason we suck. It’s false. It’s a lie. It is biased. Luck or not…..repeatable or not…..doesn’t matter when looking at PAST RESULTS.

The problem is, you think you are some kind of fucking genuis. You have a smugness about you that explains a lot, actually. QUIT making it personal. If you want to talk baseball, talk baseball. YOU’VE made it personal though, and if you continue to, I’ll stop responding to your nonsense.

Got it?

by Stanley1 on Sep 9, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Miles has helped this team on offense more than Lopez, Molina, Stav, Craig, Ryan, and Feliz.

utter horseshit

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 9, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

how can you go on a rant that favors counting stats

and then use a rate stat to back it up?

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 9, 2010 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's right ChiTown

He’s not using any stats. At all. Anywhere. And the ones he is using…..are misleading.

We don’t talk about Miles in terms of OPS, we talk about him in terms of WAR. You know why? Because, by WAR, he’d have to OPS about .800 to make him worth PLAYING. That’s how fucking awful he is on defense. All those other guys you mention actually have value even when they’re not hitting. Miles is hitting .300 right now and is below replacement value on the season. That’s a pretty damn impressive level of sucking.

When we talk about him being the worst player in the big leagues, it’s because he’s been the worst player in the big leagues FOR TWO STRAIGHT YEARS by WAR. He’d have to hit .340 to be worth positive value to our team. He doesn’t walk, he hits only singles, and he has no range and no arm on defense. He’s the definition of a below-replacement level player. He should be a bench coach if he’s going to be in the dugout, but I’d imagine that Dave McKay might actually be able to outhit him, even at age 65.

Tyler Greene has played better than Aaron Miles, is more talented than Aaron Miles, is younger than Aaron Miles, has more utility than Aaron Miles, and somehow he got passed over for a utility infield job on the big club so we could promote Aaron Miles, who was hitting .240 in AA at the time, to the big club.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 10, 2010 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

The fact that you continue to defend a guy

that was cut by two other MLB teams and salary dumped by another, who hasn’t been worth positive value to any team for nearly 2 full seasons, coupled with the fact that you refuse to listen to reason and continue to cherry pick your own statistics to make your point about that guy just proves what ChiTown and I have been saying all along about Colby: You cannot separate your emotional attachment to players in order to look at their performance objectively.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 10, 2010 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

I have ZERO

attachement to Miles. I just don’t hate him, as a player, like some of you do. And while there MAY be better options, I’m also smart enough to realize, the way things have gone, our record probably isn’t any different with say, Greene on the roster over Miles. This notion that by somehow having players with better future potential on the team suddenly leads to wins, is silly. This team has a bunch of holes, and simply semi-plugging one of them, doesn’t change much. I’m not debating who should or shouldn’t be on the roster. I’m simply debating what the end result, in terms of wins/losses would be.

by Stanley1 on Sep 10, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't hate Aaron Miles personally

I don’t even know the guy.

I hate the fact that he is taking up a roster spot better served to players who can help this team win, and that the reason he has that roster spot is because our manager, for some reason, has a soft spot for shitty, impish middle infielders who don’t do much of anything well, and has had that soft spot for pretty much his entire career. Go back and look at Mike Gallego’s career numbers and tell me why he ever deserved a roster spot on a major league roster. Yet he was on a TLR roster for nearly his entire career.

It’s like people expect Miles to somehow find that magic from 2008, his career year. You made a point earlier about expecting Ludwick to repeat his 2008 and how that was foolish — why should we ever expect Miles, who has far less physical talent than Ludwick (who was a top 75 prospect once upon a time for the Rangers), to be able to be that good, and even when he was that good he wasn’t as valuable as a league average middle infielder. When your ceiling is below average, you’re a waste of a roster spot.

This team has a bunch of holes, and simply semi-plugging one of them, doesn’t change much.

But it DOES change a lot. If you plug that hole with a guy who has some potential and might need some time to show it (like Tyler Greene), you might be surprised at what happens (like the Royals were surprised with Mike Aviles a couple of years ago). You KNOW what your getting with Aaron Miles — a guy who is a below average baseball player at his best and a below replacement level player at his current level.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 10, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have ZERO
attachement to Miles. I just don’t hate him, as a player, like some of you do. And while there MAY be better options, I’m also smart enough to realize, the way things have gone, our record probably isn’t any different with say, Greene on the roster over Miles. This notion that by somehow having players with better future potential on the team suddenly leads to wins, is silly.

FWIW I think that’s a fair point.

And I don’t think anyone hates Miles as such, more that we hate the PROCESS that brought him here, and the proclivities of both the management and front office that that process suggests.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 11, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

you were talking about actual production

use counting stats when you want to use on-field production. OPS is a rate stat, not necessarily reflecting what actually happens on the field. if you want something that purely reflects what’s happening on the field and in-game production, counting stats are the way to go

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 10, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Boy, I'd sure like to offer an opinion here...

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Sep 11, 2010 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

LMAO

Thanks. Makes my points above all that more salient.

Smug? I guess I might come off that way when trying to discuss baseball with people who throw facts by the wayside in favor of personal preferences so that he doesn’t have to look anything up.

I’ve personally called you out because failing to prove your points with objective evidence is lazy. There’s nothing else you can call it.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 10, 2010 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

This right here is the problem with you

You get on your high horse on Miles and have the stones to say this?

Or making a big deal about some predictive stat, but completely ignoring what actually fucking happened on the field.

Irony, thy name is Stanley1.

Let’s talk about Rasmus again. He’s hitting an OPS+ of 133. You know how many centerfielders have had a season that good, at that young of an age, over the last 50 years? It should (but won’t) interest you to know there have been 11 other people that have had a total 16 seasons as good at that age. Over 50 years from centerfield.

What we hear from you, though, is that he doesn’t hit to the other field. He should be hitting .300. Some nonsense about he never was supposed to be a 25 homer guy. He strikes out too much. He’s stubborn. He doesn’t walk enough. Isn’t improving. Isn’t trying to improve. And you try to make an argument that he isn’t truely a .850 OPS hitter, when his actual fucking results, at his age 23/24 season, say that is exactly what he is right now. You defend starting Stavinoha (who is literally half the hitter with a 61 OPS+) over Rasmus just this week when the season is on the line. And I doubt I read even half of your comments, so I am sure there is much more I have missed.

And you have the stones to lecture people about what they see in Miles. You make these comments just upthread from where you are doing the same thing, and worse, with Rasmus.

It’s hard to take your comments seriously, when you can’t even manage to stay intellectually honest within one thread.

by Merry CRasmus on Sep 10, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

You defend starting Stavinoha

No I don’t. I didn’t have a problem with him getting a rare, rare start earlier in the season when we weren’t needing to win most every game, but I’d never been a proponent of Stav getting starts. IN FACT, I’ve said dozens of times that if he is in a position to get a bunch of starts, CRAIG should be on the roster, getting those starts.

What I have said, is that I think Stavi will hit better than Craig, this year, in a purely PH’ing role, or almost purely PH’ing role. That I’ve said.

by Stanley1 on Sep 10, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I got overzealous

With the Stav comparison. The point remains that you are more interested in what Rasmus doesn’t do rather than how much tangible production he provides. Yet, you feel perfectly comfortable making your post a few spots up the thread.

by Merry CRasmus on Sep 10, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

What leads you to believe this?
What I have said, is that I think Stavi will hit better than Craig, this year, in a purely PH’ing role, or almost purely PH’ing role. That I’ve said.

This is why most of us write you off. That’s purely subjective opinion, and we have no reason to agree with you or take you seriously unless you can show us an objective reason for why you think that way.

This comment is really an exercise in having your cake and eating it too:

  • If the guy is going to start, then Craig should be the guy
  • If the guy is going to pinch hit, then Stav it is, because he’s just better at that stuff, so say I, Stanley, and screw you guys that don’t believe me.

How are we supposed to take that seriously? You continue to obfuscate and change your position all the time.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 10, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

now what did these boys ever do to anyone?

they’re just makin their way, the only way they know how, fightin the system like two modern day Robin Hoods

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Sep 10, 2010 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

you are the only person who thought it was ridiculous

unless you meant, ridiculously awesome

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 9, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

you compared the best player in the game

a guy worth roughly 8 wins per season, to a manager who starts Aaron miles on a regular basis.

I’ve defended you on here before, but it’s clear that you are just posting nonsense to get a response.

Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers

by SleepyCA on Sep 9, 2010 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Albert isn't replaceable.

How many 8 WAR first basemen are there in the league? Ermmmm, one.

How many ageing managers with dubious recent records, problems with personality clashes and the media, and a basic lack of understanding of sample size issues as regards splits and matchups are there? I’ll be willing to bet there’s a fair few guys who could do that job.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 10, 2010 7:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

That isn't how you look at it.....

You look at what we could do with Albert’s money. And yes, I think we could replace “8 WAR”, or pretty darn close to it, for what we’ll be paying Albert pretty soon.

by Stanley1 on Sep 10, 2010 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

And....

you’d be wrong. Again. We’ve run the numbers on this, and there’s simply nobody we could bring in the would replace Albert’s value to the organization.

Do you see people walking around with LaRussa jerseys on? I sure don’t, but I see a shitload of #5’s out there.

You continue to overvalue the job that LaRussa has. There are plenty of bad managers who’ve won the World Series with good talent. I can’t think of a single good manager who’s won a World Series with bad talent.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 10, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

And you won't.....

Because even if a team has “bad talent”, if they play well enough to win a WS, nobody is going to call it bad talent at that point. Bad talent cannot win a WS. It’s really not possible.

by Stanley1 on Sep 10, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly my point

So talent wins games, not managers. Managers don’t make players better, they put them in positions to be the most successful with the talent that they have. I can, and have, made the case that TLR just isn’t very good at this anymore. It happens.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 10, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

You won't convince me.....

That TLR was good at that, and now, for no reason other than he is older, isn’t. That doesn’t make sense. He does things the EXACT same way. He’s making the same moves. He’s playing guys the same way. He is dividing AB’s the same way. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn’t. Recently, it hasn’t. I’m not happy about it either, but I feel like Tony has done just about everything possible to jump start this team. He’s played the best players when healthy at times. He platooned some of them. He’s given some young guys time. He’s tried playing Miles a lot, and sparingly. He’s juggled the lineup a bunch. He went back to hitting the pitcher 9th. He swapped out leadoff hitters. If TLR was truly stubborn, he wouldn’t be doing all of that. He’d put out the lineup he wanted, and he’d stick to it. You may see the changing of the lineup/roster as medling. I see it as proactively trying to jump start the team/offense. Again, there really is no right/wrong answer.

by Stanley1 on Sep 10, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

are you in love with Tony or what

I don’t get it. you refuse to see his faults.

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 10, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you can't get past the fact

that this is the roster that Tony La Russa wanted and that Tony La Russa has been unsuccessful at winning games with the roster that he wanted, well, I don’t know how to convince you.

You’re approach to Tony La Russa is identical to the name of an Eric Clapton rock group — “Blind Faith”.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 10, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you think it's possible

that maybe he should just roll the 8 most talented players out there every day, hit them in the same order, and that THAT might actually be a change to the Tony LaRussa strategy of managing? Because it would be. He hasn’t changed the way he does things — he’s rolled out the most different lineups in the MLB for the last 11 years in a row. So maybe NOT doing that would jumpstart the team. In fact, the last time he played the same lineup 6 days in a row, WE WON ALL THOSE FUCKING GAMES.

You cannot seem to see the forest for the trees.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 10, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

You forgot...

4. Have one of the best pitching coaches in the history of the game, who seems to be tied to you at the hip for whatever reason.

Stanley,

I’m not saying that Tony hasn’t been effective in the past. I’m saying that a lot of the qualities that made him a good manager in the past are qualities that he’s not shown the last 4-5 seasons. From 1996 – 2005 we were a really good September team. Since then, we haven’t been (yes, even the World Series year we weren’t a good late season team). He’s gotten in more and more pissing matches with the front office and talented players than he ever did in his first 10 seasons in St. Louis.

You know what’s funny? His last couple years in Oakland look A LOT like the last few years in St. Louis:

  1. Complaining about lack of talent.
  2. Complaining about management’s unwillingness to spend to win while undermining a new organizational philosophy of developing lower cost talent through the minor leagues instead of relying on expensive, declining veteran talent.
  3. Facing off with the GM and scouting director who have a different philosophy than you do and pitting you against them in the media and with the fanbase.

Any A’s fan will tell you that this is exactly what happened in the mid-90’s in Oakland when TLR wasn’t as successful there.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 9, 2010 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

What a coincidence...

that 4 years after winning the World Series history repeats itself. I think Tony’s ego gets so big after a WS win, that he begins pushing the blame when things don’t go well onto the first scapegoat he can find.

Does anyone else think that a happy Rolen on this team would equate to a 10+ game lead in the division? I mean our 3B production/defense has been nothing to write home about.

I hate checking the box scores and seeing a pitching line of 6 ip, 5 R, 2 ER, 2 BB and 5 K. The defense needs to make the plays they should make and this team would be far better off. It directly explains why we have 3 pitchers with sub 3 era’s but are not all 20 game winners at this point. Sure, you can explain the offense’s weaknesses, but the defense has been such a letdown.

by Jumsy on Sep 14, 2010 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

The defense has been fine

Lopez and Skip’s shitty defense have been offset by Yadi’s and Ryan’s amazing defense, and Colby, Pujols, Holliday, Ludwick and Jay’s solid defense.

Fire Tony La Russa

by vivaelpujols on Sep 14, 2010 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think you're wrong on Rolen...

But mostly because we would gain from Cincy’s loss of having to play Edwin Encarnacion at 3B the whole season. I would guess we’d have a 3 game lead or so right now, just based on WAR.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 14, 2010 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

that, or we'd be 9 games under our pythag xW-L instead of 6.

Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers

by SleepyCA on Sep 18, 2010 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not telling any "stories"

I’m simply comparing you to someone I know that doesn’t know how to manage personnel because your comments on managing people sound very much like this person.

“If I could just get all really good people I’d have no problems”.
“You either get in line or get out of the way.”

That’s not managing, that’s dictating, and if you can’t handle different types of people or personnel you’re not doing your job effectively.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 9, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

You make it sound like Colby is just an odd ball

If that were the case, I’d agree, TLR should just deal. It isn’t a personality difference. It appears to me, and none of use know for sure, that it’s more of a kid that doesn’t want to strive to be the best he can be. A kid that maybe doesn’t like being told what to do, or what to work on. A kid that doesn’t take criticsm very well. TLR could probably leave Colby alone, and he’d probably be a pretty good player. Maybe even a “star” in time. Or Colby could listen, and work on things, and maybe he could be a star a lot sooner, and maybe a HOF-type player in a time. Who knows. Maybe the problem I see isn’t it at all. But I think it’s more than Tony just not liking Colby’s personality or southern drawl.

by Stanley1 on Sep 9, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

so you look at Tony's track record of not getting along with players

and then you notice Colby has no track record of underachieving (that I’m aware of anyway), and you go with the no evidence side? ok

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 9, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

What do those two things have to do with each other?

Nothing.

And I’ve said it before…..Tony’s track record, when you consider how long he has been managing, really isn’t that bad. It’s his team, he should get to play who he wants. If he thought Ozzie was washed up, damn straight I wanted Tony to play the younger, more talented player. If Jimmy Edmonds wasn’t going to get regular AB’s, and TLR thought that was best, Jimmy needs to get over it. Judging from the stats he put up since then, I’d say Tony was right about Jimmy not being an everyday player.

It’s a no win situation with some of you. You want him to sit/release vets today, to play the young guns like Colby, Craig, and Greene, but when he was trying to bench guys like Ozzie and Edmonds to play Clayton and Raz/Ankiel, he’s a bum? Come on.

by Stanley1 on Sep 9, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow -- just oversimplify everything we've said to make it look like we don't know what we're talking about

I’m done with you. You’re lazy and uninformed. I’ll just leave it at that.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 9, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

aka

I just proved what I posted above, which is your story/stat/argument changes from post to post.

by Stanley1 on Sep 9, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

apparently you like starting shit here.

I’m sure you have better things to do

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 9, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

No

AKA — I’m not going to waste the time and effort proving why your above statement is a bunch of bullshit and misrepresents the argument by simplifying it so much that you can no longer recognize the focal points of the discussion because the person making the assertion thinks he’s right and objective evidence isn’t going to change his mind.

You’re in the dark, and you apparently want to stay there. At least grow some mushrooms down there and do something productive.

I have better things to do.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 10, 2010 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm late but this isn't just managing.

This is dealing with people. Everyday. In life. You can’t treat everyone the same and expect everyone to respond to the treatment the same.
As someone studying to be a Special Ed Teacher this idea seems pretty intuitive to me.
And a rec for you fourstick.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
"If I do it wrong just break another toe. Three's my lucky number anyway." -Evan Lysacek: 2010 Olympic Gold Medalist ♥

by ClemsonGirl on Sep 17, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

welcome back

havent seen you around these parts in a while. Hope all is well.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Sep 18, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

What kind of balls?

Baseballs? Golf balls? Ping pong balls?

by dronemc on Sep 10, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

cheese balls

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter

by prophetjohn on Sep 11, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

testicles

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Sep 11, 2010 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

bullocks

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Sep 11, 2010 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

nah

just people trading peach cobbler recipes

fourstick calls strawman on stanley1’s characterization of fourstick’s choice to use peento peaches

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter

by prophetjohn on Sep 14, 2010 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

MMMMMMMM...

Peaches.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 14, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

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