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Around SBN: Devils Beat Rangers, Head To Stanley Cup Finals

BP's analysis of the Cardinals' downfall. Behind the firewall; well worth a read for subscribers. Money quote: "It should not be all that surprising that a team with so much working against it has struggled so much recently. What should be surprising is that they managed to look like a legitimate contender for half of the season."

over 1 year ago Birdos_avatar_tiny lboros 246 comments 0 recs  | 

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Nice points by TMC.

I wouldn’t save the Descalso audition wait until ST, it should start now. There is no reason to put off the inevitable, Skip’s just not good enough to play. PH-bench player maybe, but not starting 2B. Actually, minus a real 3B, we have next year’s team here except for Gagnozzi, whom shouldn’t be. This is providing that Descalso can hold down 2B.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 22, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

descalos in AAA

hit about as well as skip in MLB. his MLE based on this season is a .247/.300/.349/.649

since the ASB, skip is .288/.352/.387/.738

i’m not sure what’s wrong with skip besides his batted ball luck the first half of this season. he brought his wOBA up to .316 after an abysmal first half, but if he had his typical luck on batted balls all year, he would have rolled into play today at a solid .342. that sounds like an MLB 2B to me

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter

by prophetjohn on Sep 22, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

My description of Skip

positives – usually a .300 hitter, great arm for a second baseman, good teammate

negatives – little power (i.e., mainly a singles hitter), little speed (i.e., stolen bases), bad defensively at second base (excluding the arm)

overall, I think the Cards need to do better, especially if they commit to a light-hitting Ryan as their shortstop

by CRay on Sep 22, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll disagree somewhat here (though I know you said WAS)

Skip had 22 doubles (and a total of 35 EBHs with 5 triples and 8 homers!!) in 153 games in 2008, 34 doubles (39 EBHs) in 153 games last year, and 18 doubles (24 EBHs) in 127 games this year. So he showed some power last year but little this year – doesn’t seem to be much more development possible here. Skip is far from the worst second baseman the Cards have had, but a pennant-winning team needs to do better at that position, given the relatively weak defensive-oriented hitters elsewhere in the lineup.

by CRay on Sep 22, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

isn't his only job to get on base?

he was supposed to lock in as the lead-off man.

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Sep 22, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

In some ways, Yadi2

But it seems to me a strangely constructed team with non-power hitters at short, catcher, second, and (with Jay) in right (and that even assumes Freese comes back and does well at third). I don’t think the Cards will (or should) replace Ryan or Molina. Thus, either second or right (or both) needs a power upgrade. That’s my bottom line. So, either sign a power-hitting outfielder (and trade? Jay and Craig) or a better second baseman. Given the defensive difference between the current incumbents at second and right, I favor finding a better second baseman.

by CRay on Sep 22, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

third was supposed to be the power.

it was supposed to come from
1B
LF
CF
3B
(RF)

the other half of the lineup gets on base a lot.

that was the plan. we’ve watched that actually work. but if lineup construction puts all the weak hitters together AND baserunning becomes this black hole of shamefully bad suck —

roster management and lineup construction go hand-in-hand. some of these guys can’t be evaluated properly because they weren’t put in roles that maximized their abilities.

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Sep 22, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure what you mean by "bad ball hitter."

Comparing Skip to Pablo Sandoval is a bit off-base.

For his career, Sandoval has swung at 44% of the pitches he has seen outside the strike zone. Skip has swung at 28.7% of the pitches he has seen outside the zone in his career. This season, Sandoval has swung at 44.4% of the balls he has seen outside the zone while Skip has swung at 31.9%. Skip has swung at more non-strikes this season, to be sure, but, it seems to be working as Skip has posted a career high LD%. He has been unlucky in that his BABIP is 25 points below his career average despite this career high LD rate. Sandoval, on the other hand, has a career-low LD rate of 16.4% and a very, very low .288 BABIP when compared to his career average of .324. (Sandoval posted BABIP of .350 and .356 in each of the last two seasons.)

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 22, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

And if Descalso can actually play a good 2B?

Skip has the range of a ship’s anchor.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 22, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's not considered a defensive whizz but all i've heard is that he's adequate at 2B

he’s almost certainly a fair bit better than Skip. I’d say they’re probably similar value players now, though Descalso is arguably more of an every day choice as his platoon split isn’t as extreme as Skips (which, one could argue, is a good or bad thing).

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 22, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Total Zone likes Descalso

He’s got the arm to turn double plays over pretty well too.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 22, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with TMC

I had high hopes for the Cards,but somethings really hurt especially the closer position some serious changes need to be made in the infield for them to prevail

by J.Boon on Sep 22, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

On further thought it’s too bad the Cards could’nt do what Philly did in getting Halladay and Oswalt either one or both would have helped

by J.Boon on Sep 22, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

could never have happened

Chris Carpenter for Manager
"He’s in his own world out there. He says he doesn’t cuss. I disagree." - Skip Schumaker, on Jason Motte

by BVHeck on Sep 22, 2010 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not reading all of that.

Cardinals 2010 memorial sig. Never Forget.

by The Continental on Sep 22, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

OK, I read it.

Thanks for using restraint on the moo puns.

Also, yes to pretty much all of that.

Cardinals 2010 memorial sig. Never Forget.

by The Continental on Sep 22, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

+1

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 22, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

You forgot: Discard McDougal

I don’t understand why he’s even on the team.

He’s the harbinger of doom to me.

by thepainguy on Sep 22, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously

MacDougal makes as little sense to be on the roster right now as anybody. He’s terrible and we’re out of the race. Also, if there is one thing our farm has produced it’s right handed relievers. Why keep him on the team? Is somebody in the organization doing him a personal favor or something?

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Sep 22, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

5th starter next year

Do you remember that spelling bee you won in the first grade? Rock? "R-O-K"?

by jd is legend on Sep 22, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've had about enough of this

if it happens, you die!

Fire John Mozeliak up a nice steak, or stake ( haven't decided)

by mattyfrommo on Sep 22, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like jd =(

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on Sep 22, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

aw

Do you remember that spelling bee you won in the first grade? Rock? "R-O-K"?

by jd is legend on Sep 22, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

just don't let it happen

Fire John Mozeliak up a nice steak, or stake ( haven't decided)

by mattyfrommo on Sep 22, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Obviously, MacDougal was standing sideways so MooCow couldn't see him.

Give him a KFC gift card as a lovely parting gift.

Albert has the advantage of being ridiculous - FredbirdisaDork

by TBender on Sep 22, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Oh hell yeah

I really, really can’t stand Macdougall.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 22, 2010 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

And sadly he's down the list of "why is this guy on the team"?

#1. Stavinoha—-the guy is just terrible, can’t play defense, doesn’t have much power and swings at 57% of the balls thrown in his direction when he is standing at the plate.
#2. Miles—-no talent, no purpose, gonna be hitting .260 wOBA craptacular player, but at least he can fake playing almost mediocre defense unlike Stav.
#3. Feliz—-The one player in the big league that’s a worse hitter than Miles.
#4. Suppan—-the Brewers cut him. The Brewers. The 27th worst pitching staff in the big league Brewers. He was an emergency starter I get that, now that we have 5 guys who are starting, why is he here?
#5. MacDougal—-at least he throws hard?

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Sep 22, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions   4 recs

Fuck I forgot #1

#1. Matt Pagnozzi. Not a AA player.

Move everyone else down accordingly.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Sep 22, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

gags

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 22, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

lesson learned

any team with both Stav and Miles on it will have difficulty making the playoffs. add Feliz, and it’s a near impossibility. and no one should ever have to deal with Suppan being a part of their team’s starting rotation. it just screams BAD IDEA

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 22, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec'd gratuitousuly

The management of this team is looking horrible.

by vivaelpujols on Sep 22, 2010 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you've got the right main idea, MooCow

This isn’t a terrible team, it just feels like one right now because Murphy’s law decided 2007 wasn’t enough punishment for our awesome end to 2006 (I think Murphy is making the argument that 2007 was of our own making, whereas there is far more bad luck involved this year).
We don’t need to blow up the team or make huge sweeping changes, in my opinion. The Stars and Scrubs® approach obviously has flaws, but it also has the advantage that our core is still really good. The front office just needs to be sensible.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Sep 22, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

you have the right ideas but

somehow i suspect that if you ever made assistant gm, you’d put cows on the bat..

..i miss ludriguez-wick..

by d-dee on Sep 22, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

In a Heartbeat...

;=8)

Spare me your taradiddles!!!!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Sep 22, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree with point #6

I’m fine with arguing that we might have had a little “too much” junk this year, but most of that was the result of injuries, and not having the money and/or players to go acquire solid replacements. Or, simply choosing not to, b/c we thought Freese was coming back.

There has been plenty of young talent on the roster this year. Raz is only in his second year. Boog is still fairly young. Jay and Craig have seen considerable time. Freese was our starting 3B. Anderson/Pagz have both seen time. Greene has been up and down. Garcia has been in the rotation all year. Salas has helped out quite a bit. Motte is still pretty young. Hawk. I mean, just HOW much mid-level young talent can you throw on a roster, and expect it be consistent?

You also throw Flop and Stavi in there. Flop had a crappy year, but he is not a scrub, not old, and certainly not on his last leg. Stavi, I can see some people’s point on him, but his role at the beginning of the year was 25th man, righthanded pinch hitter off the bench. I still contend that if his role had been that all season, he’d have been fine.

I’m not sure why people think you can just stick your 4 best, non-starter minor leaguers on your bench, and call it a day. It stunts development in some cases. It leaves you no depth b/c ALL of your minor league talent is already at the ML level, and you start players “clocks” unnecessarily early in some cases. You just about have to have 2 bench guys, IMO, that are simply that, older bench guys. That doesn’t mean it has to be Miles and Winn, but it also doesn’t mean sticking Decalso and whomever there, either.

And this is a year to year strategy. Next season may be different. Guys like Jay, Garcia, and a healthy Freese are almost certainly ML players next year. Greene and Craig probably got the last bit of experience they needed this year, and need to try the ML level. Mather should be recovered now, and if healthy, is probably right on par with Craig. So next year, I could see that. If we don’t sign somebody, Craig or Mather just about have to be on the roster to spell Jay. Unless there is something going on I don’t know about, I’m ready to let Greene be the utility guy next year. Same with Anderson (hopefully) or Pagz. That could still possibly leave one, maybe two bench spots open. I see no reason to fill those spots with Decalso or Hamilton. Probably a good spot for Stavi. Or another older, veteran bench OF.

by Stanley1 on Sep 22, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

poor randy winn. he gets the short end of the stick everytime

guys like winn are exactly the kind of 4th/5th OF, veteran presence type people we want to offset the youngsters. the rest – feliz, miles, soup, macdougal: VERY VERY BAD. but i do hate when winn gets lumped in there. he has performed probably exactly to expectations.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

by IHeartBoog on Sep 22, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

I’d have no problems with Winn being our 4/5 OF next year. He and Craig, or he and Mather. And actually, that is one position I might not care if he go young, and carry Jay, Craig, AND Mather next year. Mather and Craig can both backup 1B, and should both be able to play 3B in a pinch. That allows Tony the flexibility he likes.

I don’t have a problem with MacDougal staying on. He was pretty good once, and appears to have good stuff. I guess you could argue that if Duncan hasn’t helped him yet, he probably cannot, but that is a pretty low risk move. He hasn’t pitched many, if any, high leverage situations, and he can eat innings if necessary. Don’t forget, with the possibility of shutting down Garcia, we don’t have much left if a reliever were to get hurt, or another starter were to go down. What is the problem with leaving Mac out there for a few more weeks?

by Stanley1 on Sep 22, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Macdougal belongs no where near this team next year.

He’s pitched 14 innings since he’s been up, and managed to be worth -.4 WAR in that little bit of time. He has no control, and needs to hang up his cleats.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Sep 22, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Next year?

I agree.

I just think he was worth the chance earlier this year, and he is worth keeping around this year for insurance. It isn’t like we have a bunch of young arms up, that need the experience. Salas would be the only one you might put in that category, so Mac isn’t really “stealing” innings.

by Stanley1 on Sep 22, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

He was the definition of dumpster diving this year....

I’m not saying go all Lopez on him right now, but I certainly don’t want to see him in the BOB next year.
Oh, and I would put Samuel or Sanchez (Flash cards needed) ahead of him for the rest of the year.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Sep 22, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sanchez

but he’s better served closing in Memphis. He hasn’t dominated in AAA yet and tbh I’d rather see him stay in the minors for another 3 months at least. He’s young enough to improve some more, and that’s what we want to see.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 22, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm just talking about letting

him throw up here for the rest of the year over mac.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Sep 22, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep

I’m glad this is becoming a more common observation in VEB! He’s actually hit well this year, and is still only 2 seasons removed from a 4 WAR year, and one year from being basically an average corner outfielder (with horrible BABIP luck). I’d be fine with having him for another year, except for his age, apparently badly declining glove, and the fact we’ve got a bunch of fringey left-handed guys behind Rasmus (Jay, also Chambers and possibly Henley) who’ll be ready for playing time this year, so I don’t see a need for him. But he did and OK job this year.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 22, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only reason I don't want him back next year

is that we’ve already got two left handed bats in the outfield and we really need a reserve that bats right handed — especially with TLR as the manager. Winn simply can’t hit from the right side any more for whatever reason. Better to have Mather or Craig as the 4th OF, and with Jay we don’t need a guy who can play CF either.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 22, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just don't think Winn is worth signing

just don’t need him

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 22, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was against bringing him on, and keeping him on, the roster because he is redundant.

We have two lefthanded hitting outfielders with higher upside for the organization than Winn. When we initially signed Winn, we sent Jay to AAA. If Winn could hit righthanded at all, he would be more useful. Alas, he can’t.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 22, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Flop Not on Last Legs, but....

…he was covered udder the ‘plays his position professionally’ – not being late so often that he earns getting kicked off the team. If Flop had Miles’ attitude and Grit he’d have taken second base a long time ago, but he is a wastrel and lazy and we don;t need folks like that on our team. if we expect to achieve we need folks who expect to perform – heck even those who try and come up empty are preferable to those who take their roster spot for granted. This is not the first time Flop has had this issue crop up in his career, not even the first time here. I cowpletely udderstand why TLR would prefer a Miles to a Flop overall, even with the talent disparity.

As for stav, I simply prefer Craig Allen Alan Craig Greg, etc… and Mather over him on the roster. They have moore upside and from what I have seen play the field better, and are moore flexible. Greene can back up SS, second, and 3rd, but he needs to establish that he is ready to play here and now – heck, he cud even beat out Boog if he pushes himself.

I would like to see Craig etc back up Pujols and Mather back up third and the corner OF spots; he cud also be a prime PH off the bench. These guys simply offer moore than Stav, IMO.

Spare me your taradiddles!!!!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Sep 22, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

just out of curiosity

how long have you been a cow?

..i miss ludriguez-wick..

by d-dee on Sep 22, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stavinoha SUCKS

not an MLB player

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 22, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Stav's sole saving grace this season was that he had an option left.

They could ferry his ass back and forth to and from Memphis every 10 days, and it wouldn’t cost them anything other than the plane tickets. He’s out of options now, though, if I recall correctly, so I’d be amazed if he’s on the roster this year.

by dronemc on Sep 22, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

So, you're saying, do nothing, basically?

other than re-sign Westbrook?

That’s a lot of letters to say that :-). You’ve been taking lessons from fourstick.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 22, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

i read it like this:

don’t be dumb. don’t spend money on expensive free agents when internal options are available. cut the dead weight bullshit and let the internal options compete and win starting jobs in spring training. give motte the closer job but keep franklin on to set up with mcclellan and sign a new LOOGY. the end.

by stlcardinalsfang on Sep 22, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep....

…but I did it with cow puns…
;=8)

Spare me your taradiddles!!!!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Sep 22, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Well I broadly agree, I have to say

I’d add another covering option at 2B/3B, a Lopez-type would be ideal (obviously he’s not going to be back), or more realistically someone like Brandon Inge or even Joe Crede on a near-minimum deal to back up 3B for the couple of months Freese is likely to be out and Carpenter is learning the ropes at AAA.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 22, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

the move you describe is going to be the biggest one of the offseason imo

the cardinals HAVE to find someone who can actually put up an >.800 OPS in the six hole. that spot in the lineup was just a pileful of suck after freese went down.

by stlcardinalsfang on Sep 22, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

he sucks at defense

but is above average at offense. wouldn’t just say he sucks…

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 22, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

alright but he's not very good

and we complained about lopez’s D, wonder what we’d think of wigginton/…

worth -0.8 WAR last year and just 0.6 WAR this year… not worth it IMO

by stlcardsfan4 on Sep 22, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey -- there's a lot of good points in there

Don’t paraphrase!

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 22, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I read it as "Re-arrange the same deck-chairs."

And hope the good stuff that happened this year keeps on happening, while the bad stuff doesn’t.

But I do hope we resign Westbrook.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Sep 22, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

...
And hope the good stuff that happened this year keeps on happening, while the bad stuff doesn’t.

Well not really, it’s more hope that all of the average expected outcomes happen, which is the only way to go about life.

by vivaelpujols on Sep 22, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Um...
preferably with a 4th OF who can play all 4 positions adequately.

There are four outfield positions now?

by dronemc on Sep 22, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

18th inning pitcher

I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill

by Evilfrog on Sep 22, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

rec

this all makes too much sense, somehow they will fuck it up

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 22, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

9. Get Rid of Tony LaRussa

"I don't like to sound egotistical, but every time I stepped up to the plate with a bat in my hands, I couldn't help but feel sorry for the pitcher." Rogers hornsby.

by pattimagee on Sep 22, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

we've paid our pennance, GOB

no more TLR!

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 22, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

i disagree with this
What should be surprising is that they managed to look like a legitimate contender for half of the season."

only because we looked like a legitimate contender because our team was legitimately good… i guess he means after Penny, Freese went down which I guess I could buy, but that April team WAS a true contender

by stlcardsfan4 on Sep 22, 2010 11:36 AM EDT reply actions  

that rubbed me the wrong way too

given that the roster really started out way different than it ended, it’s not a really fair statement
can someone mail this to TLR so maybe he can reevaluate the weight of the grit factor

..i miss ludriguez-wick..

by d-dee on Sep 22, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

i think his point is this

despite having two injuries in the rotation, a major injury in the lineup, and a slew of underperforming regulars and quasi-regulars, the Cards still played like contenders for 100+ games because their core is so damn good. for the first 2/3 of the year, their 3 great hitters and 3 great starting pitchers were able to carry the 19 pieces of dead weight on the roster. in the last 1/3, the deadweight finally crushed the life out of the team.

that seems like a fair assessment to me.

by lboros on Sep 22, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

We were superficially good but we weren't deep

That’s why we only looked like a legitimate contender.

The injuries to Freese, Penny, and Lohse exposed our lack of depth.

Among other things.

by thepainguy on Sep 22, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

but seriosly though

how shitty is your luck for two of your starting pitchers to get injured relatively early and remain out for so long?

i attribute the collapse to really bad luck when it comes to player health and then just poor roster management. i think we might have been able to survive one of the two, but not the two together

..i miss ludriguez-wick..

by d-dee on Sep 22, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

surprising no

but it’s just rough that he only gave us a handful of starts

..i miss ludriguez-wick..

by d-dee on Sep 22, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Penny doesn't have that bad of an injury history - common misconception

23 games played since 2001 except ’08

32 games in ’03, 24 GP in ’04, 29 in ’05, 34 in ’06, 33 in ’07, 17 in ’08 (exception), 30 in ’09

don’t really get why he got that profile

by stlcardsfan4 on Sep 22, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Thank you.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 22, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Penny's injury wasn't (shouldn't) have been a surprise

Losing Otta was a blow. Nobody else at Memphis could step up.

Your 2011 St. Louis Cardinals: Rasmus 8, Jay/Craig 9, Pujols 3, Holliday 7, M Carpenter 5, Molina 2, T Greene 4, Ryan 6, pitcher

by gocards62 on Sep 22, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Penny out, Lohse out and Albert having a poor year

probably equals 5 wins over the course of the season, AND we’d still have Ludwick. We’d be right in the hunt (3 games back and in the wildcard chase), even with all else being equal.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 22, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Carp

I agree with all of the suggestions above, but they seem premised on the idea that the Cardinals essentially have a good enought team to contend if some pieces are used differently, and if the least important pieces (Winn, Miles, MacDougal et al) are discarded. That might be right — and given salarly constraints and the lack of available trade chips, they may be stuck with more or less the same team next year whether they like it or not.

In my opinion, the only trade the Cardinals could make that would bring significant return and/or salary space would be a deal involving Chris Carpenter. He is owed $15 million next year, and there is a team option for another $15 million for 2012.

I love Carp, and realize that trading him would create a hole in the rotation and a change in clubhouse chemistry (for better or for worse, I’m not sure). On the other hand, he is going to be 36 and his ERA+ has now slipped to 120 for the year — and he would still bring a nice haul of prospects from somewhere, not to mention that $15 million that could be applied to other needs.

Fire away-

by tdawg on Sep 22, 2010 11:53 AM EDT reply actions  

I agree

Sell high.

I just can’t see him repeating this year’s performance.

by thepainguy on Sep 22, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

the colorado rockies would love to have him

and they have a surplus of young talent to send back.

i bet atlanta would be interested too.

by lboros on Sep 22, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

They look to have at least 3 guys with a similar ceiling to WW in their system right now

Teheran, Delgado, Vizcaino, and Minor all look to be mid-rotation or better starters. I’d wager we could get two of them for Carpenter, considering the ridiculous pitching depth that they have right now. Only Minor has innings above AA though…

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 22, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Couldn't they just sign Ted Lilly for 2/20 or something though?

He’s not much worse than Carp, cheaper, and they don’t have to give up any talent.

To a lesser extent a guy like Millwood, Pavano or Vazquez would work. I just don’t see anyone giving up talent AND $15m for a year of Carp when those four guys, all of whom are worse but all of whom are probably somewhat cheaper, are available.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 22, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

They're just so loaded with pitching in the minors though

that they could give up two of those guys and STILL have 3-4 mid-rotation guys with high ceilings their farm system. Where they lack talent is at the position player level at A and AA right now, and with their roster, they’re going to need help from the market there I would imagine.

I was going off of lboros’ suggestion that Atlanta would be interested. Carp is a true ace who’s been healthy for most of the last 2 years, so there’s no point in trading him unless we’re getting back a really good return.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 22, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who are you thinking?

I’d want no less than Matzek, Arenado, and another B/C player if we’re dealing Carp, and I’d prefer to have a pitcher who’s closer to the majors. Although Matzek and Miller would be an interesting righty/lefty combo who’d be likely to hit the majors at the same time.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 22, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd focus on the MLB-ready talent

the Cards still want to contend next year, after all. so i’d want the package to include dexter fowler, who is a good defender and solid leadoff man who doesn’t have to hit .300 to post a good on-base pct. (if he does hit .300, he’s among the league leaders in obp.) i’d also want an MLB-ready pitcher - chacin is probably now off the table, but i think jason hammel and esmil rogers are both going to have long and useful big-league careers; they won’t be stars, but they’ll be contributors. and franklin morales is still a huge arm that may be harnessed someday.

of their position-player prospects, my favorite is wilin rosario, who slugged .550 as a 21-year-old catcher at double A.

i might also try to get the rox to throw in chris nelson, who clearly has talent but has dealt with injuries and distractions on his way up. he can play 2b and ss, and he might be one of those late bloomers like brandon phillips or ryan ludwick.

if you pick 3 or 4 players out of that group, and then use the $15 million you save on carpenter’s salary to sign orlando hudson and jake westbrook . . . . so much for the depth problem in the organization.

by lboros on Sep 22, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

The question though,

is what incentive does Carp have to go to the Rockies? The effectiveness of his curve will most likely take a hit, I just don’t see it as a place he would want to go to.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Sep 22, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

A couple of questions then:
  1. Where does Dexter Fowler play for us? He’s not as good a CF as Colby is and he’s never played in a corner outfield spot at any level as far as I can tell. Does he have the arm to play RF? Could we move Matt Holliday and put him in LF?
  2. Would the Rockies give up Dexter Fowler? Brad Hawpe is probably gone (or being moved to 1B), which means that Seth Smith could move to RF, CarGo goes in LF, and Fowler in CF. As far as I know they don’t really have a CF to replace Fowler, so do we deal them Jon Jay with Carp and get a little more back in return?

I think a Fowler, Hammel/Rogers, Nelson package for Carp, Jay would be a good package for both teams, but I guess it just depends on the above two questions.

You’ve seen Fowler play more than I have I’m sure, so you’re better equipped to answer this question than I am.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 22, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

fwiw, matty said he's open to moving to RF

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Sep 22, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

cargo can play center

he’s started 150+ games there in his career, including 50+ this season. the rockies have spilborghs and seth smith to man the corners, and eric young jr will probably wind up in the outfield too. so they can afford to deal fowler.

in st louis i’d put fowler in a corner - am not sure if he has the arm to play RF, but if not then i guess they’d put holliday out there and stick fowler in left.

the big question is whether the rockies would be willing / able to take on carpenter’s salary.

by lboros on Sep 22, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would guess that he has no desire to pitch in Colorado,

and would veto the move.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Sep 22, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm really curious about Jay's trade value

Seems like he would be a nice piece for someone in need of a CF but less valuable to us a corner outfielder. I’m wondering if he can be turned into a decent MI. Then we can replace with him someone like Dejesus.

by OCCardsFan on Sep 22, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

it will be interesting to see if they will experiment with converting people to MI

but at least Schu had a brief stint in the middle infield in the past. has Jay always been an outfielder?

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 22, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, I actually meant in a trade not a Schu conversion

I’m very skeptical of the Schu conversion success rate

by OCCardsFan on Sep 22, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Um, no he's not.
  • In 1386 minor league PA’s, Fowler’s walk rate was 12.2%.
  • In 1767 minor league PA’s, Jay’s walk rate was 7.9%.
  • In 1013 major league PA’s, Fowler’s walk rate is 12%.
  • In 304 major league PA’s, Jay’s walk rate is 7.2%.

Admittedly, Jay’s sample size for major league walk rate is probably too small, but I don’t believe his track record projects him to ever have a walk rate above 9% at the MLB level. Jay would need to hit .300 (just like Skip) in order to get on base the same amount of times as Fowler hitting .280. That’s a pretty damn big difference.

Also, Fowler slugged .505 in a full season in the minors and might have a bit of pop from the left side. He’s a switch hitter, which is nice to have at the top of the lineup, and he’s a year younger than Jay is.

There’s a pretty significant difference between the two players, and I think Fowler has the higher ceiling as a player.

Calling them the same is like calling Josh Willingham and David Murphy the same. One has to hit .290 to have a .360 OBP. The other could hit .260 and have a .360 OBP. Big difference, but you know that already.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 23, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Isn't Atlanta pretty much loaded with pitching options?

although I guess Medlen is probably out with TJ for much of next year, so perhaps not…

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 22, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

i curse you

that’s all
all my rationality is out the window when it comes to 29

..i miss ludriguez-wick..

by d-dee on Sep 22, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

CDNGAFAATTCCT

but seriously, it IS a good point. i don’t know what his trade value is like. i do, however, believe in intangibles and all that nonsense, and i think if we are running with a team full of youngsters next year (please Tony/Mo/Dewitt? PRETTY PLEASE??) it would be quite helpful to have someone like carp in the clubhouse. especially if oquendo is the manager. i think carp is a quiet leader of the team. if lohse had come back this year and pitched a little bit better, i would also be more supportive of this move. but i think we have to go along with the assumption that he’s not ever going to be very good again. in which case, trading carp leaves you with two holes in the rotation to fill.

You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball. --Albert Einstein

by IHeartBoog on Sep 22, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

If we weren't already hurting in our rotation

I might agree.

No reason Carp should have to throw so many innings next year, and that might help him stay fresher. We definitely need to be thinking about 2012 though, as $15M is a lot of coin. Maybe Carp would take a smaller, 1 year deal at that point, if we even want that.

You trade Carp this offseason though, and you have Waino, Garcia who just about has to regress some, and Lohse. Even if we sign Westy, that is still a big hole to fill. Carp may not pitch like an ace next year, but if he can pitch like a solid 2/3 guy, AND add the value he adds as almost a player/coach, I just don’t see how you can move him. Unless we have our eyes set on Westy and another FA pitcher, but I don’t see that. And saving the $15M this year only helps if you can find somebody else. There simply isn’t much out there. Carp will play in STL next year, as he probably should.

by Stanley1 on Sep 22, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

that all makes sense

and since he is one of LaRussa’s “guys,” it is unlikely to happen.

I think that there is a fair amount they can do with $15 million plus whatever prospects — and they probably could get some on or near the top tier — would come back in a trade. There isn’t much on the FA market, but that kind of salary room plus some good young talent makes trades that would have been impossible, possible.

Again, I know that this would be risky, and is unlikely to happen. But not trading him also involves some risk — a 36 year-old with a history of multiple arm problems and a huge number of innings pitched this year isn’t going to be a stud for too much longer — and, in my opinion, more or less commits the team to running out the same guys next year and hoping that things go better.

by tdawg on Sep 22, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

A few guys have mooted restructuring Carp's deal

and I like that idea. We pay him something like $10m/yr for the next three years, basically picking up his 2012 option but also having him for 2013. I think he’d do that as it’s guaranteed money and 3 guaranteed years. Hopefully he’s smart enough to realise his option likely doesn’t get picked up in 2011 anyhow.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 22, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think this is what they should do

I’d offer to restructure him this offseason for 3Y$36M, with him getting his $16M next year and then $10M in the two years after that. We would save enough to pay for at least half of Albert’s extension in 2012, and would have him for one more year after Lohse’s contract is off the books and Garcia and Rasmus start to get expensive.

That seems like a good trade off for both sides in terms of payroll flexibility. Carp goes from $18M guaranteed to $36M guaranteed and the club gains more payroll flexibility down the road.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 22, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

He'd only have to be a 2.5 WAR pitcher to be worth $10M,

and considering his worst full season with the Cardinals he was worth 3.2 WAR (2004) and that he’ll likely be worth nearly 4 WAR this season when it’s completed, I’d bet he’ll be worth more than $10M in both of those years as long as he’s reasonably healthy.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 22, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

you have to ask yourself this question though

would you commit 36 million and 3 years to a regular free agent starter who is entering his age 35 season, has a ~30% decrease in WAR from 2009 to 2010, and has an injury history?

by stlcardinalsfang on Sep 22, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hmmmmm...

I have some questions for you then:

  1. Is this age 35 starter an ace?
  2. Was this age 35 starter one of the top 4 pitchers in his league in WAR in 2009?
  3. Is this pitcher a solid #2 starter by WAR and FIP in 2010?
  4. Don’t most pitchers have some sort of injury history?

The answer to all of those is yes.

He could be Curt Schilling or he could be Mike Scott. He’s a better pitcher than Scott was and he’s not a strikeout guys like Schilling was, so he could age fairly well.

The other real option is to deal him, re-sign Westbrook as the #3 starter, go with Lynn as the #5 starter, and try to get back pitching prospects in return for him, while using his salary to upgrade the middle infield.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 22, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure it will

but you can’t say that he’s more likely to be hurt than to put up 2.5 WAR. That’s basically saying that he’s more likely to be hurt than to pitch at all, because he’s been worth 3 WAR in every season he’s been healthy since coming to the Cardinals.

I don’t know what basis you can have for this outside of a WAG about the health of his arm.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 23, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

What?

Are you forgetting 2008? That’s the worry for me – not really his worth if he’s playing, but the fact that he might not play.

by sdrone on Sep 22, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not forgetting 2008,

but he’s been a very good pitcher the last two years and is leading the league in starts this year. If he’s not able to pitch in 2013 that doesn’t really kill us, as we should have a couple guys available from the farm in 2012.

I think it’s worth the risk because he’s been so good when he’s healthy.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 22, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can I introduce you to my friend 10 and 5?

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Sep 22, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's kind of a silly name

Are his parents hippies?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on Sep 22, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

gypsies actually.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Sep 22, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

they live in Seattle

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Sep 22, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thknk we should keep Carp...

…until he is replaced by Shelby Miller. A Wainy/Carp/Garcia/Westie first 4 would rank with the best in the game and give us a significant advantage in the play-offs (if we ever make them!). heck, I’d even say sign Penny to an incentive-laden cowtract and let him push Louse tot he ’pen and be our 5 if possible! A championship-winning team begins and ends with an excellent rotation, IMO.

:=8)

Spare me your taradiddles!!!!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Sep 22, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

OT: look at this video

of Will Rhymes hitting his first ML HR and his teammates pretending to give him the silent treatment. it’s quite endearing

..i miss ludriguez-wick..

by d-dee on Sep 22, 2010 12:11 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Wow

That’s just a cool clip all around.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Sep 22, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is he related to Busta?

Do you remember that spelling bee you won in the first grade? Rock? "R-O-K"?

by jd is legend on Sep 22, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

The unicorn has been found.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Sep 22, 2010 12:41 PM EDT reply actions  

I remember reading about that a while ago.

Something like that has as much chance of being the actual explanation for unicorns as anything. Mythical unicorns are supposed to be smaller than horses (I think) and have a weird mix of features, like a goat-looking beard and different hooves. I think a different tail too.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Sep 22, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know how to take the fun out of everything

Next you’ll tell me that the jackalope is just a rabbit infected with the Shope papilloma virus.

by thepainguy on Sep 22, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Colby's pretty sure that's not the case

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Sep 22, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

and it walks.

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Sep 22, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Not very realistic

At least jackrabbits and antelope are found on the same continent and biome.

by thepainguy on Sep 22, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

At least I didn't bring up the politics of pre-nups and how they intersects with economic choices

such as revenue’s relation to prices and the voting public’s three-tiered schema of candy bar preference.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Sep 22, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Reeses dude, it's all about the Reese's

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Sep 22, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't forget.....FJM takes over

Deadspin today.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Sep 22, 2010 12:44 PM EDT reply actions  

still with the VORP...

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter

by prophetjohn on Sep 23, 2010 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

haha check this article out

Titties vs. VORP

What Phoebe showed me that day was perfection. I wanted to have them and I was willing to do what it took to get them. Then my whole world was transformed.

Jerry, we get it. You masturbated to Phoebe Cates. It’s cool — we all have our thing. Sometimes I like to open up baseball-reference.com and just go to town while looking at Barry Bonds OBPs from the early 2000s. ‘Cause, you know, I’m a Stat Geek.

by stlcardsfan4 on Sep 23, 2010 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Jimmy noooo.

:(
do the reds have to break everything good?

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Sep 22, 2010 12:55 PM EDT reply actions  

what happened?

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Sep 22, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

ouch....did that just happen,

or did they just figure it out? I thought he’s been on the DL for a while now.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Sep 22, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

home run trot.

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Sep 22, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Last night

At least he went out in blaze of glory.

Cue Bon Jovi.

by thepainguy on Sep 22, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hopefully

the Dave Bush kill shot.

by ol Pete on Sep 22, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

video

here
steps on home plate, looks up and says “fuck”
/i has a sad for jimmy

..i miss ludriguez-wick..

by d-dee on Sep 22, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Larue interview from

last night.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Sep 22, 2010 1:11 PM EDT reply actions  

i love that dude

i’ll miss the larue-cat interviews, always hilarious

..i miss ludriguez-wick..

by d-dee on Sep 22, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wonder if Penny would agree to give us a bargain and/or go to the bullpen next season

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 22, 2010 2:14 PM EDT reply actions  

i don't want him back.

he was really good when he was pitching but he only pitched for less than 2 months. and we don’t really know how healthy he is.

by stlcardinalsfang on Sep 22, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would be open to having him back in the 'pen for a nominal cost

maybe he’ll feel like he owes the cards something. not likely, but sometimes this happens.

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 22, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

if he were to go to the bullpen and only cost $1M

that would probably be the biggest steal of ’11 in MLB

but then again, I have no idea how he could miss over half a season with the injury he had.

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 22, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let him Knock Out Louse to the 'Pen!

and yeah, he owes us a good deal, and we can give him an-udder chance to show he can pitch. I would be REALLY happy with a Wainy/Carp/Garcia/Westie/Penny rotation!

:=8D

Spare me your taradiddles!!!!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Sep 22, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

why the heck would you want Lohse in the 'pen

when his main value is an innings eater. Penny seems more injury prone to me, and limiting his innings would make a lot more sense.

but at this point, both of them may be injury problems, so I suppose they are pretty much interchangeable. unfortunately, Lohse’s only value to the bullpen would be a mop up guy, and it would take a lot of justification for them to turn him into that considering how much money he makes.

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 22, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Open question

Remember that part in Bull Durham when Crash explains to Nuke (or whomever it was, can’t remember) the difference between hitting .250 and hitting .300 over 500 at-bats?
Aside from the fact that he probably should have used plate appearances and taken walks and extra base hits into account (not to mention positional adjustments… in fact, maybe he should have introduced Nuke to the concept of linear weights…)
/lame pandering to crowd.

Anyway, what is the difference between Albert’s 2010 and a typical year from Albert? BA adds to both OBP and SLG, right? So, how much would it take for Albert to have a “normal” offensive year? A few more doubles and a dozen more singles? It couldn’t have taken that much over the course of the season for him to slug over .600 and whatnot.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Sep 22, 2010 2:45 PM EDT reply actions  

Vep did this in a comment the other day I think.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Sep 22, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here it is
His career wOBA is .434. His wOBA this year is .409; however, that comes with a .290 BABIP. Normalize his BABIP to his batted ball rates and he has a .434 wOBAr. Then consider the fact that league wOBA is down (97.8% of) this year compared to his career. You adjust for that and his wOBA is .444.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Sep 22, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

lineup
Fox_Sports_MW
  
#STLCARDS LINEUP—Skip 2B, Jay RF, Pujols 1B, Holliday LF, Rasmus CF, Descalso 3B, Pagnozzi C, Ryan SS, Lohse P 4 minutes ago via web

..i miss ludriguez-wick..

by d-dee on Sep 22, 2010 2:52 PM EDT reply actions  

is Bryan Anderson still on the team?

I have a hate relationship with the Cardinals' roster makeup decisions. | Cards on Cards

by madding on Sep 22, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

so Tony

Refused to play Craig at third and was hesitant with Greene because it wouldn’t be “fair” to them. Now he starts Descalso there. Descalso played 2 games at third at Palm Beach in 2008, and 47 games at third at Batavia in 2007. Huh?

by CRay on Sep 22, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

we need to upgrade to the gallon milk jug

maybe some inserts on tax returns

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Sep 22, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Need Milk?

UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

;=8)

Spare me your taradiddles!!!!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Sep 22, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly….

everyone but DonTony/Mo could see that without an offensive upgrade, the patient was terminal. Running Feliz out there was waving the white flag. It’s possible that someone like Craig or Greene could have got hot. Feliz has no hot in the tank.

by jackclark on Sep 22, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Managing personalities/egos etc.

If TLR benches Skippy and starts Descalso, he undoubtedly creates an “issue” in the clubhouse since Descalso is right in the “possible long-term replacement for Skippy” wheelhouse. It basically tells Skippy that “we’re testing out a replacement for you next year” and that we “may be looking to trade you in the offseason.”

Starting Descalso at 3rd smoothes these rough edges since there’s no current incumbent at 3rd, while still getting him some at-bats.

No you may say (like I would) – “Isn’t that exactly why TLR should start Descalso?!?” And I would agree with you because I don’t care if Skippy is on this team, have no particular affinity for him, and would just as soon Mo get busy finding a replacement for him.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Sep 22, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

mehh....

the players should understand that the young guys should get playing time while they are out of it

if skip really thinks something of descalsco starting once in late september while the cards are 8 games back then skip is kind of paranoid…

by stlcardsfan4 on Sep 22, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

let's check the pilot light on the ole stove....

if you could stick one free agent in Fredbird’s van (meaning — money is no object) … who would you grab before the next Spring Training?

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Sep 22, 2010 3:14 PM EDT reply actions  

let's do both

Fredbird’s van
and the Milwaukee weinermobile

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Sep 22, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

If we're not looking at cost:

Add – Jayson Werth on a 2 year deal. This frees up Jay to be the 4th OF type everyone seems to think he is and allows Craig to be dangled as trade bait or added to a package if he’s got any value at all.

Shoved in the van to Milwaukee: Pedro Feliz. Miles at least you can theoretically stash away somewhere and hope he only makes PH appearances. Feliz basically has to be out in the field if he’s on your roster, which means he’s likely to get multiple AB’s a game to drag your will to live down the toilet.

by dronemc on Sep 22, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Would Love to Add Werth....

….but don’t see it happening. I think Jay will be fine. This is still his rookie year, he can be a perfectly good OF in a short period of time, he’s got young legs, a decent arm, decent range, and pop in his bat. And he’s home grown and udder control. Jay is a plus, not a negative. Werth adds moar moolah, probably way too much. Besides, he’ll mess around with the wrong Cardinals wife and get himself luggaged…
;=8)

Spare me your taradiddles!!!!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Sep 22, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Part of the premise of this hypo was "ignore cost."

Unless I misinterpreted the part of Yadi’s post where it said “money is no object,” at least.

FWIW, I agree with you – some combination of Jay/Craig/Mather will likely be fine in RF next year, with Jay likely being the floater to give Colbly off days since he can handle center.

But if I had the magic checkbook for one of the potential free agents this summer, it’d be Werth. I don’t think you can really argue that, absent cost considerations, Jay > Werth.

by dronemc on Sep 22, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hmm....Colbly...

Is that a new misspell of Colby’s name?

by dronemc on Sep 22, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's the adverb form

Do you remember that spelling bee you won in the first grade? Rock? "R-O-K"?

by jd is legend on Sep 22, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

I believe that Werth hired Boras this week.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Sep 22, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

people are just in a hurry to crush dreams

must be a VEB thing
heh heh heh

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Sep 22, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Moz on Floppy

video
nothing new really

..i miss ludriguez-wick..

by d-dee on Sep 22, 2010 3:39 PM EDT reply actions  

aaaargh
Fox_Sports_MW
  
#STLCARDS Molina headed back to STL for MRI on right knee 6 minutes ago via web

..i miss ludriguez-wick..

by d-dee on Sep 22, 2010 4:01 PM EDT reply actions  

beautiful......

Your killing me over hear GOB’s….you bastards.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Sep 22, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

they are bastard coated bastards, after all

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 22, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Year gets Worse....

….well, let’s see cow Anderson and Gagnozzi do. Think of it as an audition to back up Moolina next year.

Spare me your taradiddles!!!!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Sep 22, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

catching is not an enviable position

here’s to a fast recovery, yadi

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 22, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

and that is why letting him sit a few games makes a tremendous difference.

also: BRYAN ANDERSON EXISTS

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Sep 22, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ya.....He's Gagnozzi's backup.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Sep 22, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

weep.

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Sep 22, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is what happens

When you never rest Yadi. We all know how great a catcher Yadi is and how valuable he is to the pitching staff, but when his knee has been bothering him and you never let the man rest, what do you expect to happen?

Senility is definitely not one of Tony’s most charming characteristics….come to think of it I can’t find a single thing I like about him.

by CarpIsMyManCrush on Sep 22, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

descalsco to start at third base tonight

wat

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 22, 2010 4:24 PM EDT reply actions  

He played there in college

and probably would have played more there in AAA this season had Gotay not been on the team.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 22, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

ah

thanks for the clarification. I’m not as informed on the fabrege eggs as many on here.

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 22, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know we should have plenty of money in the offseason

With the way the GOB have been fucking us, I’d say we’ve racked up quite a lot of dough.

by CarpIsMyManCrush on Sep 22, 2010 4:38 PM EDT reply actions  

you've said it aloud!

now a kraken will rise from the Lake DeWitt parking lot and incur a gigantic fine from the city of St. Louis!

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Sep 22, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Speaking of fines

Maybe the reason the team has no money is because of the impending fines from Vaporware Village

by CarpIsMyManCrush on Sep 22, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Comment from the Straussicorn chat...
Another comment – I want LaRussa back. These fan boards dont represent the majority of fans, in my opinion. A lot of these jokers are so beaten down by life,spouses, bosses,etc. that the only say they have in anything is to post negative comments – they somehow feel empowered .

Aww, were we mean to someone?

by dronemc on Sep 22, 2010 4:51 PM EDT reply actions  

....

The majority of fans are idiots when it comes to actual baseball, hence why you’ll hear your average fan saying:

“But TLR HAZ 2500+ Wins…liek u dont no how good he is so shuddup.”
“TLR IS AMAZING. ID LIEK TO SEE U GO OUT THERE AND MANAGE PROPER”
“AARON MILES IS SEXXAY, AND BATTED 350 LAST MONTH, Y DONT U TRY AND DO THAT!!”

by CarpIsMyManCrush on Sep 22, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actual posts from the cardinals FB page to prove my point

“thy also need a new manager and hitting coach not one who tells the guys how to inject roids McGUIRE!!!!”

“What ever happend to gool O”LL RED SHAINDYS or how ever you spell his name…"

“i say trade lohse he got a hefty contract what did he do this year besides get a surgery on his jerk off muscle”

" please leave your not good enough to help. I"ll give you $1.25 IF YOU LEAVE NOW!" (In regards to Ryan Franklin)

or my absolute favorite

Put Miles on 3rd base for awhile. He seems to do well wherever they put him. At least, he shows great effort.

If that last quote doesn’t scream idiot, then something is wrong.

by CarpIsMyManCrush on Sep 22, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

"get a surgery on his jerk off muscle"

WINNER

Do you remember that spelling bee you won in the first grade? Rock? "R-O-K"?

by jd is legend on Sep 22, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Anybody that knows about that injury has already had it.

And gone blind in the process.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 22, 2010 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

he shows great effort!

LOL

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 22, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Anybody that can't spell Schoendeist properly

shouldn’t be allowed to call themselves a Cardinal fan.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Sep 22, 2010 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

so is he saying Strauss is just beaten down .... ?

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Sep 22, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Strauss gets off on Cardinals fans' agony

Do you remember that spelling bee you won in the first grade? Rock? "R-O-K"?

by jd is legend on Sep 22, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

dude is fucking clueless

resorting to personal attacks lol!

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 22, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

it occurs to me

that if we’d played more of the Memphis Mafia EVERY DAY or in regular platoons
we could have had more trade bait lying around to fill the most pressing needs, when we needed it.

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Sep 22, 2010 6:13 PM EDT reply actions  

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