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St. Louis Cardinals September Viewing Guide: Things to watch if you can't watch the score

I had a writers' workshop last night that spanned basically the entirety of yesterday's game. Let me just say I'm happy about that. The Cardinals continue to lose in novel ways, and the Reds continue to win in novel ways; I can't explain it, and I won't try to with clubhouse intrigue or team mood or chemistry because that's not my place. All I can do is watch. But watching hasn't been particularly fun lately, especially the scoreboard. So I'm going to stop.

If the Cardinals run off some wins and I realize, hey, this is closer than it used to be, things might change. But I look at it like this: Once upon a time, young danup lived and died with the St. Louis Cardinals. They'd blow an important rally or trade a favorite player and young danup would probably throw something against something else, or at least want to. But old danup is convinced baseball should be watched because it's fun, and only because it's fun. Days are already a succession of obligations; there's no need to add one from 7-10 every night for the next month. 

Right now watching the Reds run away near the top of the NL Central standings is the least fun thing in the world, but if we put a week's moratorium on scoreboard watching, or at least explicit scoreboard watching, I'm sure we can come up with reasons to watch this baseball team every night for another month. Starting with:

Jaime Garcia. How wonderful has it been to watch Jaime Garcia this year? Answer: very wonderful. I don't want to jinx it for the guy directly in front of him, but Garcia's ERA—2.33—is within 0.09 of Tim Hudson, the current National League leaders. He's 15 innings from qualifying for the title at the end of the season.

I won't say it's likely, and given the Cardinals' luck of late it's more likely that he's inadvertently locked inside J.D. Salinger's secret vault and asphyxiates, but Jaime Garcia, who pitched about 40 rehab innings last season, is in a position where he could theoretically win the ERA title. In a year where Kyle Lohse disintegrated, the Cardinals got a piece of good news that more than makes up for it. 

Star-divide

Jon Jay. It still seems like he just got here for a cup of coffee, but Jon Jay has appeared in 73 games now, more than half a season's worth. He's got 206 at-bats and he's hitting .330/.379/.481. 

I don't know what this means, because Jay is in an incredibly difficult place to make a living—an all-defense corner outfielder with no power and none of Carl Crawford's gaudy speed numbers—but he's having a career year like nobody could reasonably have expected. In his two months at Memphis he hit .321/.394/.491; collectively he has 33 doubles, which is 10 better than his career high. 

There's a lot of—there's a lot of uncertainty surrounding Colby Rasmus. I'm presuming, absent anything more than clubhouse intrigue, that he and La Russa will both be back next year, but even assuming that Rasmus has proved fragile and more likely than the average .850 OPS center fielder to end up in prolonged slumps. With no set player in right field and Rasmus in center Jay will have every chance to prove that he can cobble together enough value to start, but even if he can't there are 350 at-bats with his name on them. I'd like to see Jay hold that average over .330, for his baseball card's sake. 

Adam Wainwright. I'm loath to mention Albert Pujols's _____ _____ attempt (Dan Haren attempt?), because it involves competition with a certain metonym for the Reds' offense, but Adam Wainwright has 17 wins going into September, which is one more than he had last year. I want him to end with exactly one more win than he had last year.

I'm looking out for his baseball card, too. Look: Wainwright's off to a solid career start, but there are a few things standing in the way of true baseball card sublimity. For one thing, he started late—because he spent 2006 as a set-up man, not throwing anything into that save category, it looks like he really began his career at 25, which is too late. Then in 2008 what should have been the start of his peak is obscured by that finger injury, which also separates 14 wins from 19 and 17.

What Adam Wainwright needs is an awesome Dave Stewart run. Maybe not four consecutive 20 win seasons, but 19-20-21-17 would look pretty excellent. I'm just spitballing, here, of course; if he wants to go 19-33-48-59-28 I won't hold it against him. 

There are some exciting players on this unexciting team. Brendan Ryan seems more ready than ever to do something spectacular once a night. Albert Pujols has that thing he's trying to do, with the categories. Chris Carpenter has gone 31-8 since spending most of two years on the disabled list. Even the backup catcher position is slightly more interesting than usual. 

The big picture isn't doing me any favors, but there's some small picture stuff to watch while it continues to frustrate.

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Thank you.

A timely reminder that there’s more to baseball than a)winning b)counting c)gossip.

ceterum censeo, delendo est Joe Strauss

by alberich on Aug 31, 2010 6:43 AM EDT reply actions  

unfortunately

you are correct in that other than jay and garcia
everyone else it as or below last year
so, islands of good in a sea of loss

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR

by sportsman on Aug 31, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

D) Haircuts.

It’s time to start enjoying the season again. As much as that’s possible.

"He's the straw that makes the drink go."

by Thelonious Dunk on Aug 31, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

this team continues to play to the level of their opponents

therefore i’m not going to watch unless they are playing a good solid baseball team, so that leaves me with cincinnati, atlanta, san diego and colorado, half of their remaining games.

by lopey986 on Aug 31, 2010 7:16 AM EDT reply actions  

Craig

I continue to watch, wondering if he will ever find a gap and get above the mendoza line.

Jaime has been awesome. A couple years ago (before the TJ surgery) I got to see Springfield in a game against Frisco in person and Jaime was pitching. Also in that game Bryan Anderson was catching, Craig was at 3rd, Robinson was in left and Jay was in right. It’s been neat to see some of these guys getting chances in the bigs and doing well.

by paposse on Aug 31, 2010 8:29 AM EDT reply actions  

Oh

And Andrus was at short for Frisco. I think he was still a teenager. He’s the real deal.

by paposse on Aug 31, 2010 8:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Box scores

Where do I find retro minor league box scores? Milb.com stops with 2009. I just found my program from that day but didn’t write the lineup in. Here is who played though:

C Anderson
1B Hamilton
2B Jose Martinez
SS Greene
3B Craig
RF Cody Haerther
CF Jay
LF Robinson
P Garcia

Salas and Gregerson out of the pen.

by paposse on Aug 31, 2010 8:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

nice, really nice

what was the outcome and where are the pictures?

..i miss ludriguez-wick..

by d-dee on Aug 31, 2010 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Cards won in a wild one

I wish I could find the box score. Garcia got hit though, I think everyone got lit up if I remember right. 12-10 type game…

Photos are somewhere on my home PC.

by paposse on Aug 31, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Boooooooooooooooooog.

however, this team makes Boog sad. sad boog, awww.

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Aug 31, 2010 8:30 AM EDT reply actions  

good points, all.

I’ll still be watching the games, because of the starting pitching. And because of Brian Anderson and Colby and Jay and Boog. But I’ll be better off if I don’t expect much from the offense. Last night as the innings kept flying by and the Cards only had one hit, you knew what was coming so it didn’t hurt as much as it used to.

It was a fast game. Happ threw 114 pitches, an average of 12.67 an inning if my math is correct.

"I'll be in the conversation at the end of the year." Adam Wainwright

by spfldbird on Aug 31, 2010 8:31 AM EDT reply actions  

Like Folgers in your cup

A good way to wake up, with a much needed reminder to take a step back from the ledge and at least enjoy the individual aspects of the team even when it’s tough to enjoy the team as a whole.

Red Means Go.

by bigwilley18 on Aug 31, 2010 8:32 AM EDT reply actions  

With all that being said

What’s this off-season going to look like? That’s gonna be fun or painful to watch. Obviously signing Albert is priority #1, but going into next year with gaping defensive holes and the need for a #5 (#4 if Penny doesn’t recover well) could give a chance to bring up some kids with a real shot at a good spring training. hopefully they ditch everyone with a “Z” in their name as well…….

what you've just said... is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

by gopens44 on Aug 31, 2010 8:43 AM EDT reply actions  

I'm sure the powers that be are giving a lot of consideration to that.

I doubt this team will reach 90 wins. There were several players injured which makes a big difference, especially the pitchers. I don’t have the time to go look this up, but I think I remember that there were years in the past where the Cardinals hardly used anyone but the regular starting 5 all year long.

And on offense, Boog and Schu got off to horrible starts, though (I think) they are playing better now. I misswick and so do the Cardinals.

When you when a championship you get lucky breaks along with the skill.

I’m sure the offseason will be an adventure also. Does this ballclub resemble a soap opera, “As Tony Turns”?

*will he return for another season?
*if he does, what will his relationship be with his fledgling hopeful star centerfielder?
*What will happen with Albert?
*spoiler alert – David Freese debuts his new bionic ankles.

"I'll be in the conversation at the end of the year." Adam Wainwright

by spfldbird on Aug 31, 2010 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Will Albert agree to a new deal

if TLR is gone? They still seem tight.

by paposse on Aug 31, 2010 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Albert is his own man

i am more afraid of losing Dunc if TLR goes than i am Pujols and even with DD i think he’d stay without Tony
but we won’t have to worry about that, since Tony will probably resign for another year
i wonder what the postseason brings for Big Mac though

..i miss ludriguez-wick..

by d-dee on Aug 31, 2010 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

This.

I’m more worried about losing Duncan than TLR.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 31, 2010 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Carpenter will replace Dunc

and pitch as well. if any pitcher (except A.D.A.M.) is tipping pitches, he’ll break them off.

/luggage.

Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!

by timmycardinals on Aug 31, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

a combination of Carp and Marty Mason

could be a decent replacement for Dunc
but DD needs to coach until he’s Red Schoendienst age (for us), retiring before that would be a waste of a one of a kind skill

..i miss ludriguez-wick..

by d-dee on Aug 31, 2010 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd love to see Pujols replace TLR

and the manager’s salary can be rolled into the cost of his extension…

by DaMang on Aug 31, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure even Duncan is worth the LaRussa tax anymore.

I’d prefer that Dunc stays and Tony goes. If they’re joined at the hip, then I’ll wish them both well. Dave has said that they aren’t a package deal, but who know how things would go down if he really had to decide.

You're Walgreen's sunglasses, Aaron Miles, you son of a bitch.

by The Continental on Aug 31, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

decide what though?

tony decides to retire, doesn’t mean DD must retire too, he can do whatever the hell he wants. he’s only made it clear he’s not interested in managing

how well could this team self-manage?

..i miss ludriguez-wick..

by d-dee on Aug 31, 2010 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

that whole "same lineup" thing was really cool.

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Aug 31, 2010 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Decide whether to stay or go if Tony isn't around.

Yes, he can do what he wants, but a change like that for the team would cause everyone to re-evaluate a bit I would think.

You're Walgreen's sunglasses, Aaron Miles, you son of a bitch.

by The Continental on Aug 31, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Another factor would be if Tony decides to manage elsewhere, or just hangs it up.

If TLR decides to spend more time as Grim Reaper Rabbit in Bay Area theatre, Dunc may be more inclined to stay here.

You're Walgreen's sunglasses, Aaron Miles, you son of a bitch.

by The Continental on Aug 31, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Can we trade Tony for Chris?

I think that would show DD that we’re “dedicated to putting a team around him”. Chris as a #5 outfielder > Tony as manager?

by WyoCardsFan on Aug 31, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Doubt they'll reach 90 wins?

If they play three games under .500 in September the way they’ve done to date in August, the 2010 Cardinals will finish the season at 84-78.

Seems pretty assured they won’t reach 90 wins, and won’t be anywhere near the playoffs.

Repeal The LaRussa Tax.

by Michael_68_1999 on Aug 31, 2010 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

this may sound weird and i swear to God, i've said this in previous days

but i doubt we play under .500 for the remaining games… as said above half our games are against good ballclubs, which we excel against…. not saying 90 is in reach of course, just we’re getting more than 84 i assume

by stlcardsfan4 on Aug 31, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, back in ´05, iirc

The rotation was a clear one, you always knew who was pitching next. Carp, Mulder, Morris, Suppan and Marquis all stayed healthy and consistent throughout the entire year.

I am sure the Walrus can play RF...

by Paulspike on Aug 31, 2010 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

you are saying this as if you expect Penny to return

i’ll assume Penny and Floppy probably go…

i would like to see Westbrook in our rotation for another season. with more time with DD and Carp, who knows how much better it can get

i am calling it right now – there will be no Albert resigning this year, so they might as well put their efforts in finding some way to dump Lohse or reclassifying him into the team hair stylist

i wonder if TLR and Miles are a package deal kinda like TLR and DD?.. if TLR returns (which he will, he’s got something to prove now), does he insist on Miles for 2011?

..i miss ludriguez-wick..

by d-dee on Aug 31, 2010 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

If TLR is the manager next season, Aaron Miles will be on the team

I guarantee it

Do you remember that spelling bee you won in the first grade? Rock? "R-O-K"?

by jd is legend on Aug 31, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll up you to 100 internet dollars for it

Reasoning: No other MLB franchise is going to want Aaron Miles. Aaron Miles is going to want to play baseball. TLR will enable him to do so.

Do you remember that spelling bee you won in the first grade? Rock? "R-O-K"?

by jd is legend on Aug 31, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

that's a little rich for my blood

I guess I’m not terribly confident in my position.

by infallibleopiniongenerator on Aug 31, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Unfortunately

They are paying Lohse #2 money so we aren’t getting any pitcher other than the 5-8 mil 1 year guy. So probably penny and then when he goes down again they’ll have to scramble and trade a good MLB level player for a 5th starter because lohse sucks again and penny has busted arm.

by lopey986 on Aug 31, 2010 9:48 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

MOAR MONEY

I’m really hoping that DeWitt finds some way to justify increasing payroll that all the stakeholders buy into.

Once they signed Holliday they were almost committed to that. Aaahh..Albert. I hope he can remain a Cardinal. But I’m leary of Albert/Matt/and a bunch of fill-ins. I want Albert to stay a Cardinal but I also want the team to compete.

"I'll be in the conversation at the end of the year." Adam Wainwright

by spfldbird on Aug 31, 2010 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good point.

Paying those 2 (and Lohse) big bucks and keeping the team payroll the same may lead to nowhere.

How would the finances work out, though, with Pujols’ impact on the away game attendance? i.e. what would be the effect of losing him on the visitor’s gate share the Birds get?

by Mr. Wilson on Aug 31, 2010 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also, don't forget the raises due to Wainwright and Yadi.

Almost all of our payroll flexibility will be gone if extend Pujols.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 31, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

no visitor's share of gate anymore

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR

by sportsman on Aug 31, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is what I was talking about last week

We need a reliable guy to fill that #5 hole. Someone that has low injury risk and could come cheaper than 5-8 mil. Lohse simply won’t pitch anymore…

I am sure the Walrus can play RF...

by Paulspike on Aug 31, 2010 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well livan Hernandez

Is making like 1.5 million and eats a shitload of innings, I’ve wanted the cardinals to get him for 5 years now instead of guys like Penny who have talent but give you 100 innings and then fall apart.

by lopey986 on Aug 31, 2010 10:11 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I want Lowry or Correia

if they hit the market

I am sure the Walrus can play RF...

by Paulspike on Aug 31, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

The World Leader

said his contract was extended last night.

by sdrone on Aug 31, 2010 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

I mean guys that won't get injured.

when I say reliable, I mean a guy that will get 32 starts a year.

I am sure the Walrus can play RF...

by Paulspike on Aug 31, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

The Penny/AAA guy combo should be enough

If it’s Carp/ADAM/Garcia/Westbrook in front of him.

If it’s Lohse not Westbrook, then you need a #4 guy with Lohse as the #5.

by TBender on Aug 31, 2010 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Heh.

Jaime Garcia is having a better rookie season than what Brandon Webb (Cy Young winner and 2 times the runner-up) had.
And he is doing it with one year less than what Webb did it with.
Anyways, where is Webb anyways… He pitched a mind blowing 4 innings last year and hasn’t pitched this year…

I am sure the Walrus can play RF...

by Paulspike on Aug 31, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Shoulder bursitis

He’s apparently looking to pitch in September (per Wiki).

Interesting idea, but what about the injury?

by TBender on Aug 31, 2010 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

eh forget webb, just read his agent wants a penny kind of deal.
Brandon Webb’s agent told Steve Gilbert of MLB.com on Monday that his client expects a one-year deal worth around $8 million this winter.
He doesn’t seem likely to get it, at least not at this point. Webb, 31, has not thrown a pitch in a major league game since April of 2009 and only registered four total innings that season. Still, his agent Jonathan Maurer is comparing him to guys like Rich Harden, Brad Penny and Tim Hudson

I am the Batman .
@CodeeG

by CodyG on Aug 31, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

If he checks out and/or

pitches well in September, I could get behind a deal like this. Webb is at least well-rested.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Aug 31, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

In terms of money

Carp is the 1. Lohse the 2. Wainwright the 3 and Garcia the 5.

They need to find a 5 mil or so guy to put in there plus if they can find a veteran or 2 in the 1-2 mil price range to keep in Memphis for when lohse goes down.

by lopey986 on Aug 31, 2010 10:33 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

piss the cow off

and resign Marquis

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on Aug 31, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

That would be funny just to watch the mushroom cloud that followed.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 31, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

hamburgers for everyone?

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Aug 31, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

mushroom cloudy

With a chance of meatballs

You're Walgreen's sunglasses, Aaron Miles, you son of a bitch.

by The Continental on Aug 31, 2010 2:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

resigning penny might not be a bad thing if his price is really low in the offseason.

I would like to see Mo go after brandon webb though, offer maybe a cheap first year/expensive option kind of deal.

I am the Batman .
@CodeeG

by CodyG on Aug 31, 2010 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Penny will not be back. . .

the dude just doesn’t pitch that much, whether it’s injury, wussiness, bad luck, laziness, or whatever, he can take his $7M from this year and find some other sucker.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Aug 31, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

this.

it surprises me this isn’t being thrown around more.

by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 31, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd take a rotation of...

Wainwright
Carpenter
Garcia
Westbrook
McClellan

And I’ll also pretend that Lohse does not exist. I CAN’T SEE YOU KYLE.

by Ghostrider520 on Aug 31, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

This was the fundamental flaw of this season:

not having a better stable of #6-8 starters. McClellan or Boggs should have been primed and ready to start coming out of ST. Anyone with any sense knew that our rotation would spend part of the year on the DL.

Fire La Russa!

by guayzimi on Aug 31, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

i agree.

a bullpen consisting of boggs and mcclellan (and even ryan franklin) should be primed for spot starting in case of injuries. but instead of seeing those guys, we got the pleasure of watching suppan and ottavino instead.

by stlcardinalsfang on Aug 31, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

It was odd for La Russa not to plan a little better...

I remember he brought in Ponson and sent Reyes down a few years ago – even though that was criticized at the time, the thinking – that Reyes had options and could hang out in Memphis – works for me.

I suppose they tried a similar thing with Rich Hill…

Fire La Russa!

by guayzimi on Aug 31, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again

What team does this? Show me a team that has spot-starters “primed” that are also one inning bullpen pitchers. I certainly can’t find one. A lot of teams carry a “long man” who will occasionally make a spot start. That would describe Hawksworth, but not Boggs or KMac, as they have been integral parts of middle relief for most of the season.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Aug 31, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

We did do this...

Look at all the SP talent that started the year in AAA. Rich Hill, Ottavino, Boggs, Walters, Hawksworth….you had to gamble that ONE of those guys was going to be decent enough to make the rotation as a spot starter when needed, and none of them were able to do so. McClellan was needed in the bullpen at that start of the year. We didn’t know how good Boggs was going to be and we certainly didn’t expect Motte to be this good either. All that said, we STILL have Mike fucking MacDougal in our current bullpen, pitching twice a week. To state that and then also state that we should have “primed” McClellan (I don’t even know what this means actually — starting games in Memphis?) because we didn’t need him in the bullpen is simply 20/20 hindsight.

It’s easy to second guess now that you’ve seen how everything played out, but in April you had a staff of Carp, WW, Penny, Garcia, and Lohse with Garcia and Lohse being the question marks.

Again, I get really, really tired of this notion that we should just have 8 viable veteran scrap heap starters to hedge against injury. What team does this? What team can convince major league pitchers to go toil away on a minor league contract in AAA as a hedge against some inevitable starting pitcher injury? It just doesn’t happen, and it makes far MORE sense to build a stable of cheap minor league options from the farm. If 2/5 of your starting staff spends more than half the season on the DL, I’m don’t see how having 2 shitty veteran starters makes any big gain over two untested rookies.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Aug 31, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Boggs and Hawksworth started in the bullpen in STL...

and iirc the Memphis starting rotation was Hill, Ottavino, Lynn, Maclane, and Dickson with Walters in the mix as well… Hill was the #6 starter but he looked pretty washed up righ out of the gate, Ottavino has always been shaky (though he did have a decent second half of 2009), Lynn is a prospect that shouldn’t be rushed, and the other three seem highly unlikely to get big league hitters out given their stuff.

I would also add Carp to your list of question marks, and though Penny has been more or less durable, an aging, out-of-shape, overweight, 6’4, quasi-athlete is always a candidate for the DL. So we actually had 3-4 question marks and we went into the season with the following possibilities if an injury happened:

Rich Hill
Adam Ottavino
Hawksworth
Boggs
K-Mac
Walters/Maclane/Dickson

I was saying back we needed more depth than this back in April – it’s not just hindsight. What could we have done? Sign a Garland or Smoltz and start Garcia at Memphis – he would have been in St. Louis in short order anyway and since he can’t really go 200 innings there’s no huge loss in limiting his innings early instead of late. Or they could have signed another Rich Hill type and gotten rid of Dickson or Maclane. Or they could’ve stretched out Boggs or Kmac and had them work long relief. If the pen implodes due to their absence, you move them back. Or acquire another Rich Hill type veteran coming back from injury. Or a Micah Owings…

None of these options are thrilling in any sense, but the alternative was Soup, Hawksworth, and Walters.

Fire La Russa!

by guayzimi on Aug 31, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

None of those options

are any better than Soup, Hawksworth, or Walters and all of them cost more. I think it’s pretty clear that Smoltz didn’t want to pitch this year or the FO wasn’t interested in him pitching in St. Louis as a starter, starting Garcia at Memphis would have been a disaster if you look at it now — would we be BETTER off without his first 12 starts? I seriously doubt it.

We had 8 guys capable of starting a major league game in the system at the beginning of the year. What more do you want? If a team loses 2 of it’s starters for significant amounts of time, it’s generally not competing. The biggest issue is not our pitching, it’s been our inability to score runs off of other teams’ #4 and #5 starters. We just went 2-6 on a road trip against the worst two pitching staffs in the NL, while having the second best pitching staff in the NL, and we’re blaming our issues on not signing John Smoltz and starting what turned out to be the second best pitcher by ERA in the NL at Memphis? Come on — even you can believe some of the stuff you’re typing…

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Aug 31, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

If we had better fill in starters...

we’d also have Ludwick.

Fire La Russa!

by guayzimi on Aug 31, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Have we really missed Ludwick?

Last I checked, Jon Jay is hitting .330 and slugging over .500, and Ryan Ludwick doesn’t play 3B, or 2B, or C, or SS. soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo….I don’t see how having Ryan Ludwick helps our offense any. I also don’t remember stating anywhere that any of our outfield starters, either at the beginning of the season or currently, have been a problem for this team.

FWIW, since going to San Diego, Ludwick is hitting .218/.296/.347 and Jon Jay is hitting .277/.326/.373. Neither have been very good, but Jay has been better, and the park’s aren’t all the different.

Honestly, if we could have traded Ryan Ludwick for a bat that plays middle infield or 3B, we should have done that. We could deal with replacement level starters at 4 and 5 the rest of the season and hoped to win 3 out of every 5 with our top 3 starters going and hoping for a resurgence from one of the two injured guys for the stretch run. Instead, we dealt a bat for a pitcher who’s been pretty good for us……only we don’t give him any run support, because this team can’t fucking score any runs……which has been the problem in every month since April.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Aug 31, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

We just got two hit by Happ...

Pedro Feliz is our #5 hitter, we’ve started Winn or Skip in right field 5 of the last 6 games, our third best hitter is in the dog house, and our fourth best hitter is in Memphis…

… and you’re asking if we’ve missed Ludwick?

Fire La Russa!

by guayzimi on Aug 31, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Feliz was one of the two hits...

Funniest thing.. we have super shitty offensive games. and in those games Miles or Feliz hits

"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean

by shadetree on Aug 31, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

They were.

I think he was getting at that in bad games it’s the worst players that get hits and the good hitters get blanked.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 31, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does Ryan Ludwick play 2B, or 3B, or C, or SS?

WHERE WOULD RYAN LUDWICK PLAY?

I just showed you that he’s been worse than Jay since the trade, and Jay has gotten pretty much all the AB’s that Ludwick would have had. Oh, and the rest were probably taken by Randy Winn or Allen Craig, and with those three guys combined over that time, they’re still better than the numbers Ludwick has put up since the trade.

Try to see the forest for the trees.

Thanks for playing.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Aug 31, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

what's funny

is that this last month is totally way more predictive than his career .353 wOBA or his .369 ZiPS RoS projection

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter

by prophetjohn on Aug 31, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

The question wasn't:
Will we miss Ryan Ludwick in September

It was

you’re asking if we’ve missed Ludwick?

To which the answer is: “No, we really haven’t”.

What we’ve missed is the April/June version of Colby Rasmus and an infielder that can hit who’s name is not Albert Pujols, which has been the problem from the start of the year. This team is simply not good at scoring runs because we can’t get any offense from 4 different positions night in and night out.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Aug 31, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

and ignored the fact that

Luddy changed parks, to Petco.

Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers

by SleepyCA on Aug 31, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

actually fourstick didn't

but he said petco and busch are not all that different in splits so he took it into consideration

not my opinion though, just fourstick’s and i think he has evidence to back it up

by stlcardsfan4 on Aug 31, 2010 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

PetCo is about the same as Busch III for right handed hitters per park effects

It’s lefties who have a horrible time there, which makes what Adrian Gonzalez has done the last 3 seasons all that much more impressive.

I believe VEP would back me up on this one if he’s around.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Aug 31, 2010 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought it was you who had brought this up before...

Maybe it was hazel. I remember being part of discussion of PetCo around the time of the trade and how the park is pretty neutral to RHH and deathly to LHH.

Just ask Ryan Klesko. PetCo ruined the man’s career.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 1, 2010 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Since the Ludwick trade...

Jay has gotten 12 starts in right, Craig 9, Winn 4, Skip 2. Jay has posted a .273/.314/.354 line and Craig has managed .227/.306/.364.

Clearly Ludwick would have been an upgrade over this, unless you think he would’ve performed exactly as he has with the Padres even though the park and opposing pitchers would be different.

Fire La Russa!

by guayzimi on Aug 31, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not clear that he would have been an upgrade,

Also, PetCo and Busch III for RHH are pretty much the exact same park if you look at park factor splits.

The problem is not with our outfield production. The problem is with our production from C, 2B, SS, and 3B….and it has been all season long for the first three positions and since Freese went down for the fourth. Please refute this before telling me how much we miss Ryan Ludwick. Considering how Westbrook has pitched, that would have been a great deal had we simply dealt for a bat to solve one of the other positional problems offensively.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Aug 31, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

our infield couldn’t hit their way out of a wet paper bag

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 31, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Apples to apples

You can’t compare Jay/Craig’s actual numbers to Ludwick’s expected numbers.

Fire Tony La Russa

by vivaelpujols on Aug 31, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

YEAH

THIS IS AMERICA

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Aug 31, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

FUCK YEAH

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on Aug 31, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Love it or leave it.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 31, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because you're cherry picking stats for the sake of argument

Either pick Jay/Craig’s expected numbers vs. Luddy’s

Or

Pick Jay/Craig’s actual numbers vs Luddy’s

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on Aug 31, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Either have a 100% hindsight argument or a 100% at the time of the trade argument.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 31, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Assuming that Ludwick...

would have performed at a level similar to his career numbers or numbers for 2010 is much more valid than assuming he would have performed at the level he did with the Padres in Petco against the pitchers that the Padres faced.

And if you don’t agree with that, his batted balls are roughly on par with his 2010 overall numbers, he’s walking more, and his babip is 60 points below his career average.

Fire La Russa!

by guayzimi on Aug 31, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

In other words

Guayzimi can have his cake and eat it too.

Just keep your hands off of my cake please.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Aug 31, 2010 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

K-Mac was primed and ready to start out of Spring Training.

Our rotation was excellent (and still is very good) for the first month of the season. When Lohse and Penny went down, TLR did not want to disrupt the bullpen or deal with stretching out pitchers who had been relieving for weeks, so they acquired Suppan and stretched out the WonderReliever.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 31, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe...

But I doubt he would have lasted the whole season as a starter, as he has worn down as a reliever…

by DiscoJer on Aug 31, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeh but $10 million isn't #2 money

i mean he’s getting paid second most only because of Wainwright’s contract (holy shit best contract ever…. better than albert’s previous… ehh idk)…

yeh but someone mentioned a 4.50 FIP guy pitching 200 IP is worth 3 WAR which is worth around $10 million

a 4.50 FIP guy isn’t a #2 by any means of course, more like a #4 i’d even say….

by stlcardsfan4 on Aug 31, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sign Adrian Beltre!

I don’t have much hope that Freese will be able to go. If we don’t sign Beltre, then I’d go for Inge. As a last resort, I look internally at Greene, M. Carpenter, and/or Mather. If we do sign a 3B, Tyler Greene should be Skip’s platoon partner at 2B—unless Allen Craig does the OF/MIF conversion. Cox can take over in 2012.

As for SP, I’d take a flyer on Duscherer. Westbrook will be too expensive, but he would be my second choice.

Your 2011 St. Louis Cardinals: Rasmus 8, Jay 9, Pujols 3, Holliday 7, Beltre 5, Molina 2, Ryan 6, Craig 4, pitcher

by gocards62 on Aug 31, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

My list, of guys that interest me.

*B. Webb
*De La Rosa
*vazquez
*B penny
*Westbrook
*Millwood
*Lee
*Correia
*Bush
*Harden(just not sure texas will take the option)
*Ted Lilly

I am the Batman .
@CodeeG

by CodyG on Aug 31, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

If Ted Lilly signs

We the Baseball’s Best Fans boo him in his first start?
I’m mostly kidding.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Aug 31, 2010 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

might go with the Theodore angle

add a little executive branch to our puns

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Aug 31, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would looooove De la rosa

"What exactly is that thing? A pessimism meter?" - Bruce McCurdy

by hazel on Aug 31, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

a-greed

De La Rosa is a monster in the making.

by DaMang on Aug 31, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rich Harden? Really?

I guess that 5.79 xFIP and the fact that he’s been worth -0.6 WAR in 17 starts isn’t enough to scare you away? How about the 6 walks per 9, another DL stint, and K/9 a full 2 K’s below his career average? Still not enough? How about the fact that he’s been as bad as Suppan and Hawksworth combined in a similar number of starts?

Good grief — he was a gamble when he was an awesome pitcher with arm trouble. Now he’s a terrible pitcher with arm trouble. You might as well light $2M on fire, at least you’d get someone to show up and watch that.

The only options on this list that look affordable to me are De La Rosa, Penny (who would be on a 1 year deal worth around $4M or so), and Westbrook. There won’t be any more money than there was this year, and there could be quite a bit less.

Everyone else is going to get an 8 figure one year deal or a good sized multi-year contract. I would guess Correia stays with the Friars and Lilly ends up with the Yankees or White Sox as a back end starter on a 3 year deal.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Aug 31, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Personally,

I love the way Westbrook has pitched for us, and if we can find a way to sign him within the scope of our budget, I think he’d be a great fit.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Aug 31, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Westbrook above Penny.

Assuming your list is in want-order. If not, carry on.

"He's the straw that makes the drink go."

by Thelonious Dunk on Aug 31, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope that's not in want order with Cliff Lee way the hell down there at the bottom

and a guy who hasn’t thrown a meaningful pitch in nearly two seasons at the top.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Aug 31, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Beltre will probably be too expensive, unfortunately

but I agree that Freese can’t be depended on to be healthy

by mattyp on Aug 31, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

fuck that

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 31, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

We can't trade Cox, so he would not be part of the deal

I’d guess Miller and 2 other prospects for Zimmerman.

Problem is that we can’t afford him, Holliday, Pujols, and WW all at once.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Aug 31, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

No way they'd accept that

A lot can happen to a guy in a year.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Aug 31, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think 3b is our biggest worry.

We really need a second baseman, a 5th starter that is somewhat durable, a fair utility MIF and a phychologist for Boog.

Surely, between Carpenter and Freese, we can cobble (get it?) together a fair representation of 3b on the cheap.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Aug 31, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

League average would be great

Average isn’t bad, it’s just average. And average would be better than some of the guys who have been taking regular at bats for the Cards.

VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009

by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 31, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

solutions

craig to second
sign penny to a 4-5M deal
tyler greene

I am the Batman .
@CodeeG

by CodyG on Aug 31, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

tyler greene FTW

"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."

by IHeartBoog on Aug 31, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is Cox an option at 2B?

Probably not next year, but maybe the year after?

How does his defense at 2B project?

by Stanley1 on Aug 31, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

third

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 31, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some guys are just whip-cords and never really gain weight.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 31, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

from what I read, Matt lost weight after a surgery.

I think he likes being at the lighter weight. google him. It was during college or right after college.

"I'll be in the conversation at the end of the year." Adam Wainwright

by spfldbird on Aug 31, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

he should hang out with bp

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR

by sportsman on Aug 31, 2010 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd do Raz, Carpenter, and something else

for Zimmerman. As long as that something else is a prospect or player below the Shelby/Garcia level.

by Stanley1 on Aug 31, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

there was

but he was sent to houston with a bag of baseballs for Feliz

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 31, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hmmm.

No thanks. Too much. Raz could grow up to be Ryan Zimmerman, only in CF. (Yes, I know that they are the same age.)

by SouthsideCardsFan on Aug 31, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, Zim is 25, Raz is 23

According to FanGraphs, Raz has put up 3.7 WAR per 700 PA so far in his career, whereas Zim has put up 5.6. A big difference for sure, but consider that Raz has played much better this year, with a 4.5 WAR/700 pace (and that includes his strangely low UZR score) and Raz still obviously has much more room for improvement.

Also, Rasmus is going to be much cheaper than Zim (who is signed to a great contract). I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to say that Raz is as valuable a commodity as Zim is going forward.

Fire Tony La Russa

by vivaelpujols on Aug 31, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lesson learned. . .

don’t take to heart things that you think that you hear Dan ’ n Al say. I could have sworn that I heard them say that Zimmerman was 23.

Anyway, the point is one on which we agree. Raz + anything for Zimmerman is a bad deal. Actually, would Raz + Lohse for Zimmerman be a bad deal? Probably not, but that’s not going to happen.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Aug 31, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

i know he's supposedly amazing at defense

but im kinda gettting tired of this strangely low UZR only because a) we don’t really know what his true level is with so few innings and he’s had his share of blunders which could “thwart it”

he isn’t a -4.5 fielder, but he’s probably not a +10 fielder either…

of course, this is still low, i was just assuming you thought he was a +10 fielder (curious, what do you think he is?)

by stlcardsfan4 on Aug 31, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's what I would guess as well

although I think his mental mistakes on routine plays should be taken into account. He’s made some bonehead plays out there this season and it seems like a lot of them are due to lack of concentration.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Aug 31, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure

But those are far and few and should be fixable in the future.

Fire Tony La Russa

by vivaelpujols on Sep 1, 2010 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Sep 1, 2010 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

No way

Raz has nearly as much value by himself as Zimmerman. To add in Carpenter and a prospect is nuts.

Fire Tony La Russa

by vivaelpujols on Aug 31, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

really?

zimmerman is a 6-7 war player right now

colby seems to have trouble staying on the field

i know he’s cheaper, but colby+prospect(s) doens’t seem unreasonable

by YesWeOquendo on Aug 31, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

same here

maybe he would improve with time, but he’s not nearly as smoooooth.

"I'll be in the conversation at the end of the year." Adam Wainwright

by spfldbird on Aug 31, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Zim has also had trouble staying on the field

He’s been about 7 WAR over the past two years, but in 08 he was only worth about 2 WAR. That needs to be taken into account. He’s not as good as you say.

I think Colby straight up for Zim is fair. To add in prospects is an overpay.

Fire Tony La Russa

by vivaelpujols on Aug 31, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe a two-pronged approach

Sign a “proven vet” like a Mike Lowell who might be floating around, and then someone younger who needs a change of scenery like Brandon Wood to start, and sink or swim, with the backup plan solid behind him…

by DaMang on Aug 31, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd rather roll the dice with Freese or Allen Craig

than go after two guys barely hitting over the Medoza line, one of whom can’t play everyday, and one of whom hasn’t shown he can play much at all at this level.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Aug 31, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tongue-in-cheek, but in mostly fairness

Lowell + Wood = two guys barely hitting over the Medoza line, one of whom can’t play everyday, and one of whom hasn’t shown he can play much at all at this level

Freese + Craig = one guy barely hitting over the Medoza line and one with an empty batting average, one of whom can’t play everyday, and one of whom hasn’t shown he can play much at all at this level

4stick, where have you been?

by SouthsideCardsFan on Aug 31, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right

So why would we trade again? We have BOTH OF THOSE GUYS ALREADY AND THEY COST NOTHING TO ACQUIRE!

If we could deal Freese or Craig straight up for Wood and sign Lowell to a minor league deal, then it might be worth it, but show me a reason why Wood is a better bet to be a good major league hitter than David Freese. Freese put up similar numbers in AAA while playing in a pitcher’s park in Memphis, and he was hitting around .300 before his injury.

Why would we give up talent to get guys we already have? That’s the definition of stupidity is it not?

Brandon Wood does not seem like a “change of venue” guy to me. He seems like a AAAA hitter who can’t hit a big league breaking ball.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Aug 31, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

support the system!

Cardinals Affiliates: Schedules, Scores, News

Memphis½ game back – tied for most wins in PCL – scoreboard
Springfield2 games back – a tie with Tulsa in the Texas League – scoreboard
Palm Beach3 games back – Florida State League – scoreboard
Quad Citiesdivision leader by 2½ games – Midwest League – scoreboard
Batavia division leader by 2½ games – NY-Penn League – scoreboard
Johnson Citydivision winner – Appalachian League – scoreboard
GCL eliminated
VSL eliminated
DSL eliminated and busted

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Aug 31, 2010 9:22 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Memphis is heading into a weekend showdown with the first place I-Cubs, too.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 31, 2010 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

That

is the series to watch. Why the hell can’t FS Midwest take its trucks to Des Moines and cover that, even on tape delay? Can’t tell me Cardinals fans wouldn’t be interested.

Well, the peckerwoods who post on the P-D forums probably wouldn’t be.

Repeal The LaRussa Tax.

by Michael_68_1999 on Aug 31, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Springfield is in Tulsa for 3 games, the other team hoping to make the playoffs.

Even if Springfield doesn’t overtake the 1st place Naturals (NW Arkansas) they can still make the playoffs.

"I'll be in the conversation at the end of the year." Adam Wainwright

by spfldbird on Aug 31, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

My cousin send me this via Facebook.

Took me a while to see what’s wrong with that picture. Hilarity is assured.

Auto-tweets are AWESOME when paired with accidental headline profanity.

I am sure the Walrus can play RF...

by Paulspike on Aug 31, 2010 9:25 AM EDT reply actions  

Yes, it's well documented in last night's GT.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Aug 31, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Question - what data do we have about Freese's timetable?

Is it a straight up broken ankle?

A lot of people seem to be kind of abandoning the Freese idea . I didn’t get the idea that he was a pitcher and his shoulder was bothering him…..

by sdrone on Aug 31, 2010 10:58 AM EDT reply actions  

stuff was re-attached, dude.

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Aug 31, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Has any other player had this surgery?

What are the prospects of complete recovery? Don’t really trust the Cardinals “spin”….

by Iowa on Aug 31, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

If only it were a broken ankle.

Ankles are similar to wrists in that they are the same type of joint with roughly analagous bones and connective structures in them. Now imagine a player with chronic wrist problems trying to come back from yet another major surgery and you’ve basically got the idea.

"What exactly is that thing? A pessimism meter?" - Bruce McCurdy

by hazel on Aug 31, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

so then 50-50 or less?

"I'll be in the conversation at the end of the year." Adam Wainwright

by spfldbird on Aug 31, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd like to know if any other ML players

ever came back from Freese’s injury. Re-attaching tissue to bone for a professional athlete and expecting them to return to perform at their previous level seems pretty doubtful. But I’ll defer to the MDs on the board here.

Your 2011 St. Louis Cardinals: Rasmus 8, Jay 9, Pujols 3, Holliday 7, Beltre 5, Molina 2, Ryan 6, Craig 4, pitcher

by gocards62 on Aug 31, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Definitely not an orthopedic surgeon...

and I’m not sure exactly what kind of injury Freese has, but here‘s a link to a 1999 article on lateral ankle tendon rupture. The most worrisome quote:

After conservative or surgical treatment, 10 to 30% of patients have chronic symptoms, including persistent synovitis or tendinitis, ankle stiffness, swelling, pain, muscle weakness and ’giving-way’

Cardinals Baseball 2010: Why have only one 25th man when you can have four?

by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Aug 31, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll try to see if I can come up with some more recent articles as well

Cardinals Baseball 2010: Why have only one 25th man when you can have four?

by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Aug 31, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

1999 huh?

Seems like that would be deemed “cutting-edge, experimental research” by the Cards medical staff.

“WE NEED MORE LEACHES. IT WORKED ON MULDER.”

by Ghostrider520 on Aug 31, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK, a little more recent article

here. (Caveats: 1. From AAFP, not ortho or sports med 2. Not really looking at elite athletes). Essentially, they say surgery vs conservative therapy is controversial:

Surgery was more favorable than conservative treatment in time to return to sports, pain, and functional instability. However, these differences were not seen when adjustments were made for the quality of studies. Overall pooled results of 11 clinical trials from the review showed no difference between surgery and conservative treatment in recurrence of ankle sprains; however, time to return to work was longer after surgery

Cardinals Baseball 2010: Why have only one 25th man when you can have four?

by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Aug 31, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

42 of course...

I guess it only comes up for me since I have a member #. I’ll see if I can get a different link.

Cardinals Baseball 2010: Why have only one 25th man when you can have four?

by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Aug 31, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

here's the abstract, at least

Acute Ankle Sprain: An Update

DOUGLAS IVINS, M.D., M.S.C.E., University of Oklahoma College of Medicine-Tulsa, Tulsa, Oklahoma

Am Fam Physician. 2006 Nov 15;74(10):1714-1720.

Acute ankle injury, a common musculoskeletal injury, can cause ankle sprains. Some evidence suggests that previous injuries or limited joint flexibility may contribute to ankle sprains. The initial assessment of an acute ankle injury should include questions about the timing and mechanism of the injury. The Ottawa Ankle and Foot Rules provide clinical guidelines for excluding a fracture in adults and children and determining if radiography is indicated at the time of injury. Reexamination three to five days after injury, when pain and swelling have improved, may help with the diagnosis. Therapy for ankle sprains focuses on controlling pain and swelling. PRICE (Protection, Rest, Ice, Compression, and Elevation) is a well-established protocol for the treatment of ankle injury. There is some evidence that applying ice and using nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs improves healing and speeds recovery. Functional rehabilitation (e.g., motion restoration and strengthening exercises) is preferred over immobilization. Superiority of surgical repair versus functional rehabilitation for severe lateral ligament rupture is controversial. Treatment using semirigid supports is superior to using elastic bandages. Support devices provide some protection against future ankle sprains, particularly in persons with a history of recurrent sprains. Ankle disk or proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation exercise regimens also may be helpful, although the literature supporting this is limited

Cardinals Baseball 2010: Why have only one 25th man when you can have four?

by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Aug 31, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

one more somewhat disturbing slide

from this sports med presentation on grade III (complete tears)ankle sprains (it’s a PDF file)


Long Term Outcomes
-Critical review of 31 studies
-5-33% still had pain at 1 year
-Full recovery in 36-85% within 3 years
-This means 15-64% NOT recovered fully
-Pain at 1-3 years 5-33%
-Risk of re-sprain 3% – 34% of the patients
      van Rijn RM et al. What Is the Clinical Course of Acute Ankle Sprains? A Systematic Literature Review. The American Journal of Medicine (2008) 121, 324-331

:(

Cardinals Baseball 2010: Why have only one 25th man when you can have four?

by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Aug 31, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

ooh yeah, that doesn't sound good

"I'll be in the conversation at the end of the year." Adam Wainwright

by spfldbird on Aug 31, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

I don’t have very high hopes for Freese anymore, I think the ankle is going to be a big problem

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 31, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

A lot factors into it

Every injury is unique in some way, so I think it’s hard to know anything without actually knowing anything, if you know what I mean. Of course, an article from the journal of medicine is obviously going to be more telling than something you can just find online, but again, it really depends on the situation.

by saladdays on Aug 31, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

great

so they have no idea whether or not they should look for a 3B

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 31, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not a doctor

and I have no clue about this type of injury. All I’m saying is that it’s hard to make a good evaluation without us having specifics. The team obviously has/will have better specifics.

by saladdays on Aug 31, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let's play it safe.

Mo, go find a 3B. If we need him then we got him. If we don’t then we trade him for something we do need. And no more damn NTCs!

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 31, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

definitely part of the problem

I’m not really sure what Freese’s injury is exactly. Assuming that it’s a complete tear if there’s mention of “reattachment”, but I have no hard evidence.

Cardinals Baseball 2010: Why have only one 25th man when you can have four?

by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Aug 31, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

i would tend to view them pessimistically

The definition of success in those studies is going to be “jogging again” or “playing pickup basketball with my friends” not “playing 150 or so games of major leagues baseball in six months.”

"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."

by tom s. on Sep 1, 2010 12:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

we're forgetting that professional athletes would look more favorably

than random people… they work out more, are in better shape, and typically have more drive (million dollar contracts do that)

by stlcardsfan4 on Aug 31, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

If TLR goes...

Oquendo? Loved him as a player, love him as a 3rd base coach. Is he the heir apparent? If not Jose, what are the chances of just making DD manager to keep him? I’d just hate a re-tread to come in. Maybe Girardi could be good, but I’d question any move he made while playing against the Cubs…

what you've just said... is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

by gopens44 on Aug 31, 2010 11:09 AM EDT reply actions  

or maddon or melvin

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR

by sportsman on Aug 31, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

He was a Cards fan growing up...

He interests me, but I think it might just be because of the cool glasses.

by infallibleopiniongenerator on Aug 31, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heresy!

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 31, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's staying put in Tampa.

Has a great situation there right now.

"He's the straw that makes the drink go."

by Thelonious Dunk on Aug 31, 2010 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

But Joe Morgan said that once Crawford, Pena, and Soriano leave, no one will want to watch Tampa...

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 31, 2010 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

No one watches Tampa anyway.

They drew something outrageous like 14,000 yesterday against Toronto.

"He's the straw that makes the drink go."

by Thelonious Dunk on Aug 31, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which is a shame.

They have a young, dynamic, exciting team that wins. They have a superstar in Longoria and an All-Star in Crawford. If the Rays were in any traditional sports city, they’d be selling out every night with that sort of team.

"He's the straw that makes the drink go."

by Thelonious Dunk on Aug 31, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Noooooo Maddon

If you think Tony’s in game strategy is bad…

Fire Tony La Russa

by vivaelpujols on Aug 31, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Socia

"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean

by shadetree on Aug 31, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd like Jose OQ...

Already has a repor with the team… I just wonder if DD would stick…

"I don't like to sound egotistical, but every time I stepped up to the plate with a bat in my hands, I couldn't help but feel sorry for the pitcher." Rogers hornsby.

by pattimagee on Aug 31, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't mind seeing Matheny get a shot at it.

As for Jose, at least we wouldn’t have him as 3B coach anymore.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 31, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Doesn't Matheny have a reputation of being really "nice".

Could someone really “nice” manage a group of hard headed players.

I know everybody likes him. Maybe that’s where I got the nice thing.

"I'll be in the conversation at the end of the year." Adam Wainwright

by spfldbird on Aug 31, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

maybe they need a nice manager instead of a hardheaded one

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 31, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

well it would certainly be a change.

"I'll be in the conversation at the end of the year." Adam Wainwright

by spfldbird on Aug 31, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

it's not like baseball is the military or even a corporate job

or lawyering… it’s a game, and it’s supposed to be fun.

"Nah….He’s an infielder. Second base…..I played second base, how hard can it be?"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 31, 2010 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thelonious Mom has a huge crush on Matheny.

I’d love to see him back in the dugout, he’s the reason I started playing catcher.

"He's the straw that makes the drink go."

by Thelonious Dunk on Aug 31, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wait, we have a Thelonious Dunk and a Felonius Monk?

Uh oh

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on Aug 31, 2010 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was really confused until I re-read the nome de plume.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 31, 2010 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions