Post-Reds reverie; Jim Edmonds, J.D. Drew and the Hall of Very Good
by DanUpBaby on Aug 12, 2010 6:00 AM EDT
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PrintThis is the perfect moment for an off-day. I want this to sink in a little more. The Cardinals just swept a series against the Reds to move into first place; they did it after Brandon Phillips launched a new Viva El Birdos meme, and Johnny Cueto offered us the possibility of seeing (15 Day DL - Bicycle Kicked) on the press notes next week. Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright were outstanding, and Jaime Garcia—well, the Cardinals won, at least. He wasn't very good, but 126 innings into his rookie season it's unsurprising to see him struggle.
After all this—Skip Schumaker and Colby Rasmus and Yadier Molina hitting, Albert Pujols's slugging percentage climbing toward .600—I don't want to see a Cubs game tomorrow. I don't want even the possibility of the Cardinals losing tomorrow night to Thomas Diamond, who, incidentally, was always my favorite member of the D-V-D Trio. I don't want to be near that this morning.
So, yesterday afternoon. Prior to that game Colby Rasmus had been hitting .230/.272/.365 since the All-Star Break. Now he's bounced twice off .853, his lowest OPS since mid-April, and sits at .862 this morning. .862! His OPS was higher for just one month in all of 2009—June, when he didn't walk a single time and threatened Swingin Shawon's unbreakable record. He's having an excellent season, and he's doing it even as, at -3.9 UZR fielding runs, he selflessly acts as an object-lesson reproach against getting too involved in single-season fielding numbers.
Meanwhile, Adam Wainwright's season line: 17-6, 1.99. It's awesome, and weird; 23 decisions in 25 starts, a FIP considerably higher than that ERA, another season in which there are players with better sabermetric cases—why is Roy Halladay's season being cast as a disappointment, exactly?—but Wainwright seems almost uncannily solid and sure. Chris Carpenter at his best was better, and even then I'd worry, but with Wainwright the game just rarely seems in doubt.
Other news: this article about Jim Edmonds in what might be his final season is kind of creepy and condescending in the apparent glee with which Jeff Pearlman talks about the boring life of baseball players after retirement, but the thing that got me mad enough to log into Baseball Think Factory and whine about it was the players with which he lumped Edmonds in the Hall of Very Good: Shawn Green, Reggie Sanders, Steve Finley, Travis Fryman, Mo Vaughn, Luis Gonzalez, Bret Boone, and Bernie Williams.
Suggested sportswriter rule: From now on, when you mention a baseball player, at least bring up his Baseball-Reference page for a second.
Necessary WAR comparison:
Jim Edmonds: 68.3
Bernie Williams: 47.3
Luis Gonzalez: 46.3
Jim Edmonds 00-05: 42.9
Steve Finley: 40.5
Reggie Sanders: 38.4
Travis Fryman: 32.5
Shawn Green: 29.4
Mo Vaughn: 25.8
Bret Boone: 21.4
That's right: Only Bernie Williams and Luis Gonzalez, who played 18 seasons, accrued as much value as Jim Edmonds did in his best six seasons. Comparing these guys to Jim Edmonds is explaining why Jim Edmonds won't make the Hall of Fame, not why he shouldn't. He's closer to Derek Jeter than he is to Bernie Williams, and he's closer to Ken Griffey, Jr., than he is to Mo Vaughn, who will only make the Hall of Fame in an exhibit on awesome, off-balance hammer-throw home run swings.
Reminder: Jim Edmonds spent six seasons as an outstanding defensive centerfielder in which he hit .292/.406/.584, an OPS+ of 153. Mo Vaughn spent six seasons as an increasingly planetary first baseman in which he hit .315/.405/.569. In the six years before he moved to right Andre Dawson hit .298/.333/.495 (OPS+ 129, since by then we're getting into the Distant Pre-Longball Past.)
He also spent four years before that as Andre Dawson!
Jim Edmonds was Jim Rice, if Jim Rice were a better hitter and also a Gold Glove centerfielder, and also not the most prolific double-play grounder-into in baseball history, and also not a Red Sock.
A more interesting Hall of Very Good case can be made for the guy the Cardinals traded to get Adam Wainwright, and the guy who was getting the undue Mickey Mantle comparisons long before I listened to ESPN drool all over Josh Hamilton last night: J.D. Drew, while we're talking about WAR, has been worth 46.5 over his injury-scarred career.
It's overshadowed by Rick Ankiel, but I'll always regret that Drew's career has turned out as "poorly" as it has. Drew at his best, in 2004 with Atlanta or in 2001 with St. Louis, was the perfect, boring baseball player. He wasn't intense and otherworldly like Albert Pujols, or showboaty and perpetually hobbling around like Jim Edmonds. He started running toward the ball and he was a little faster to it than you thought he'd be; he hit the ball and it traveled a little farther than you thought it would.
Every last thing he did, when things were going well, surprised me, but only a little. That's the curse of being J.D. Drew. I remember he hit a 500 foot home run at Busch Stadium, in one of his last years as a Cardinal, and he did it with an incredibly slow, untheatrical swing; if I had just seen the replay I could have been convinced without too much trouble that he had just looped one over the second baseman's head.
But for all the injuries and the unpopularity, WAR has him as approximately Bernie Williams. He's played 145 games twice in 12 seasons.
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I had a feeling you were going to write about Edmonds after I saw your Primer comments
He’s going to finish his career with over 70 WAR, so it would be pretty incredible if he didn’t make the hall. I personally think he’s a no brainer and his peak seasons should go down as some of the best of all time.
Edmonds - the most Over/Under/Over/Rated Player...
Amen Brother. Brian Gunn’s “Redbird Nation” feature (with one of the BP writers co-by-lining — Jaffe?) about Edmonds from 2004 was/is fantastic — memorable and a little immortal (if you saw/read it at the time) like JEd himself. One of the first real indications I had that CardsBlogging was a Special Thing.
Poked around for the article from 2004 but it seems to be offline. Maybe I should quote it: “Edmonds steps to the Plate….Edmonds Swings a First Time….Edmonds is Laid in the Tomb….”
Great writing by Brian and Rich Lederer. Would love to hear from BGunn again.
YOG
Brian Gunn and Redbird Nation
The GOLD standard.
"You've got to have an attitude if your going to go far in this game." -- Bob Gibson
by cyclone on Aug 12, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
YES.
I don’t know how my eye skipped over that.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
2004 was a helluva year
A memorable team memorialized by a great writer.
Shit ending, though
"You've got to have an attitude if your going to go far in this game." -- Bob Gibson
Jimmy's career is a little odd
In that his peak was all in his 30’s. He started half the season (limited by injuries) in ’94 when he was 24, so he got a late start, and was only “good-very good” in his years with the Angels.
Looking at the career WAR list for position players, the 10 guys ahead of and behind him are all HOFers, locks to get in (PED use notwithstanding), or guys you say, “Why the hell isn’t he in?” Tony Gwynn is right ahead of him at 68.4 and Duke Snider is three spots behind at 67.5. But then again, he’s only three wins better than Kenny Lofton who, unfortunately, will never get in because he played for 27 teams including the NL’s Louisville Colonels (same thing for Garry Sheffield – well, he didn’t play for the Colonels, but his agents used them against other teams as a negotiating ploy).
I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson
by Solanus on Aug 12, 2010 7:10 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I actually wouldn't mind if Kenny Lofton gets in. Or Biggio.
Biggio I think will definitely get in, because he also had a very unique career. But both those guys were very good.
I have noticed that the range of WAR for the average Hall of Famer (a total in the sixties I think) does a pretty good job of catching the deserving players. There’s always the argument that players can accumulate very good WAR career totals by just saying “very good for a long time”, but I haven’t seen many players, if any, who have managed to get their career WAR to those levels by doing this.
Biggio was getting a lot of talk for this when he retired, but look at his peak from 1994 to 1999: WAR of 4.8, 6.6, 5.1, 9.6 (!), 6.6, 5.2. That’s a pretty awesome peak.
Lofton’s didn’t really have a peak, so much as he had an awesome first half followed by a long second half where he was usually around average. But look at the first half of his career, starting with his first full season in 1992: 5.7, 7.4, 7.7, 4.0, 4.7, 5.3, 5.3, 5.9.
I guess my point is, it’s really hard to look like a HOFer by total WAR without also having an awesome peak. I’m not so sure these “only very good for a long time” players really exist.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I feel like in some cases uniqueness carries more weight than ability for the HOF
Like Jamie Moyer. Dude has been an average or below average pitcher for his entire life, but he’s getting talked about for the HOF because he’s 62 years old?
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Aug 12, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
He might be one of those cases
Good point. Although, B-Ref does say he has three years with more than 5 WAR.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Very Unique?
If unique means one of a kind, what does very unique mean?
by Remember Kenny B on Aug 12, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
does Edmonds show up in your 25 in 25 for both the Angels & Cardinals?
I ask with genuine sincerity
by Highlifeman21 on Aug 12, 2010 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Jimmy Baseball Belongs in the Hall....
…and that’s what this MooCow says.
:=8)
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
Jimmy won't get in because
a lot of the lazy writers will look at his “basic stats” like total hits which will be under 2,000 for a career…and HOF voters won’t like that. If he could somehow get to 400 HRs that might give him a better shot… but sadly he will fall just short (if he does retire after this season). I don’t think just the Gold Gloves will get him in.
I know many here will disagree with me on this but the fact that he had his best years in St. Louis and not in New York or Boston or a large market team hurts him too because he will be overlooked…it’s unfair but it’s just the way it is. Jimmy was a big star in St. Louis and well known in the “Mid-West” but he wasn’t a big headline name for the Cardinals on the level like Ozzie, Brock, Gibson or Stan were and Albert is now… at least with the media outside St. Louis. So that will hurt him as well. But he’s a hall of famer in my book..no doubt.
Boy a frosty cold Budweiser would be great about now"…long pause…then an "aahhh". --Mike Shannon
And because of this
he will join Willie McGee, Ray Lankford and probably McGwire as great Cardinals who will never have a special ceremony and have their number retired by the team. Sometimes I wish the Cards would overlook the “being a member of the baseball HOF rule” they have when it comes to retiring numbers… like other teams do.
Boy a frosty cold Budweiser would be great about now"…long pause…then an "aahhh". --Mike Shannon
I am on the "retire number 15" train....
I don’t think I would mind McGee getting the treatment as well….. But Willie certainly makes the hall of ugly…. (ugly face, Uglier swing) even with the ugly swing he seemed to hit EVERYTHING.
"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean
Boyer's number is retired
and he isn’t a HoF.
"I throw him four wide ones then try to pick him off first base." - Preacher Roe on Stan Musial
Boyer's number was retired
before the Cards put in that guideline / rule.
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
You had me until right.....
here:
…the fact that he had his best years in St. Louis and not in New York or Boston or a large market team hurts him too because he will be overlooked…it’s unfair but it’s just the way it is.
What is it with you and railing on and on about “East Coast Bias”? Again, let’s go to the damn numbers to show that your perception is far from reality.
After Whitey’s induction a couple weeks ago, the Cardinals currently have 17 representatives (players, managers) who wear the Cardinal hat in the Hall of Fame. Only ONE OTHER TEAM has more — the Yankees with 21 inductees, and considering they have 27 World Series Titles, I would expect the difference to be more than 4 people, ESPECIALLY if the BBWAA has a significant East Coast bias. The Giants also have 17 hats in the HOF, but nobody else has more than 15. We have more than the Red Sox, more than the Pirates, Phillies, Orioles, or any other team on the East Coast. Please just retire this argument once and for all — it’s annoying at best and fatally incorrect at worst every time you use it.
Whitey Herzog is a perfect example of the Cardinal organization working in favor of someone. He was a successful manager in the 1970’s with Kansas City before coming to St. Louis and capturing more media attention with the “Runnin’ Redbirds” in the 1980’s.
If you really want to push this, name eligible Cardinals that merit Hall of Fame induction. Ray Lankford? The esteemed Mr. UpBaby is probably the biggest Ray Lankford fan I’ve ever met and I would venture a guess that he doesn’t even think that Ray belongs in the Hall of Fame based on his career.
Willie McGee? Talk about a sentimental pick. There’s not a single stat or accomplishment on Willie’s resume that would make me think he’s a HOF player that’s not getting in due to some “east coast bias”. If you’re putting Willie in, Dom Dimaggio should have been in 40 years ago, as the Boston writers were huge fans of his.
Mark McGwire? That’s not East Coast Bias, that’s Anti-Steroid bias. Big Difference.
I would guess that the list of deserving Yankees that aren’t in is probably much, much longer than the list of deserving Cardinals that aren’t in. So much for “East Coast Bias”.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Just to make this point...
The “Retire 51” talk is really the most absurd discussing in terms of Cardinal greats.
If we’re retiring non-Hall of Fame Cardinal numbers, he’s probably 10th in on my top 10 list of players that should be recognized. I would think that McCarver, Torre, Cepeda, Simmons, Forsch, Flood, Boyer, Pepper Martin, and Lankford (in no particular order, although Simmons and Boyer would be my top 2 candidates).
Oh wait, Boyer IS ON THE WALL. So much for that “only retiring HOF players” talk I guess….
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Bo did have a great three weeks or so.
If you’re including Bo, you better put John Jay in the discussion
SD
Retire 15!
Not for Edmonds, but for John Jay! Or even Holliday’s half season last year!
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Aug 12, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
just the number itself for being 15.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 12, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
and 1+5 does = 6....
just sayin’
Cardinals Baseball 2010: Why have only one 25th man when you can have four?
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Aug 12, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Well
Torre will be in the HOF. Not for his contributions to the Cardinals’ organization, of course.
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Aug 12, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
If there was ever a guy that had a crappier deck of Cards to deal with,
I don’t know who it was.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 12, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
somebody in the 1910s, probably
"Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." --Churchill
Mike Jorgenson?
Though I think he had mostly the same deck Torre did.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
I don't think that there are any deserving Cardinals. . .
who are outside the HOF (well, except McGwire, but that has nothing to do with Coastal bias).
I think, however, that East Coast Bias is a real phenomenon, but at least with respect to the Cardinals, a relatively recent one. Whether or not it will have an effect on future worthy Cardinal HOFers is pure conjecture, but not an indefensible stance.
that are outside the HOF looking in, but I don’t think that it follows from that that East Coast Bias isn’t an issue.
The Cardinals were a big market team through the most successful periods in their history, the the 30s and 40s, so it comes as no surprise that they are well-represented, and perhaps over-represented (Chick Hafey? Really?) in the HOF. It does not necessarily follow, however, that they will continue to be well- or over-represented, given the media environment in which we live today. Jimmy Edmonds will be a good test case IMHO, and probably the only real test on the horizon. Pujols is a no-brainer and would be a HOFer no matter where he played, as you indicate correctly, McGwire is a different situation, it’s too early to start talking about anyone like Wainwright or Molina or Holliday, as they have have quite a bit of work to do and quite a bit of time left to play. McGee is just stilly talk.
As for comparisons to the Phillies, Orioles, Pirates, and Red Sox, that’s pretty irrelevant, IMHO. Generally speaking, the Red Sox and Phillies sucked until recently, the Orioles/Browns have had exactly two stretches of winning consistently, and the Pirates were good in the early part of the century and again in the 70s. Winning trumps East Coast Bias, iff the latter exists and matters.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Aug 12, 2010 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions
All good points
Winning trumps East Coast Bias, iff the latter exists and matters.
That’s kinda my point. If we’re talking “major market” bias, then why don’t the Cubs and White Sox have more players in the HOF? Because they both stunk for most of a century!
I actually think that Frank Thomas is another good test case — he was a top 3 hitter in baseball for a 6 year stretch, had one of the best peaks in the history of the game (1991 – 1997: .330/.452/.604/1.056 OPS+ = 182) which, offensively, is as good or better than Albert’s, actually, if you believe that Albert has likely peaked or is in his peak years. He hit 500 homers for his career and retired with a .301 lifetime average. The only reasons not to put him in were that he played in the steroid era (although he was for testing before anyone else was — as far back as 1994 during the strike actually) and that he never played on a World Series team, which is a ludicrous reason.
I do think that there is some East Coast bias when it comes to media coverage, and that the media coverage is only going to get more biased as the newspaper business continues to die (although you could make the argument that places like VEB or stltoday sources like Goold will get more and more eyes as the newspapers lose readership). I still don’t think that it has much or anything to do with the HOF balloting or that there is a Cardinal the merits induction due to people not knowing about or respecting his career due to East Coast bias. That simply is not true.
The problem with Edmonds isn’t East Coast bias. It’s the fact that nobody recognizes his skill set as being as valuable as it was, and people always compare him with players like Bernie Williams and Andruw Jones when he was a far better player on both sides of the baseball than those guys were. He should be compared with guys like Ken Griffey Jr. — his peak OPS+ was 153 from 2000 – 2005, Juniors was 155 from ’93 to ’99. Griffey has 630 homers though, which makes him a lock — Jimmy has only 390.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
There used to be a more obvious bias...
When the Giants and Dodgers were in NY. A lot of guys got in the Hall in the 50’s and 60’s who were less deserving than others.
the Big Hurt was awesome
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
bias case: 2004 NLCS
I think borderline HOF candidates need to have some shining post-season moments to push their candidacy over the line. I think the 2004 NLCS might be a specific case where east coast media bias will bite Edmonds. That was perhaps a pinnacle time in his career and that series in general was fantastic but it was all but ignored in favor of the admittedly intriguing and historic Red Sox-Yankees ALCS. I imagine if you asked a random sportswriter about 2004 post season, (s)he would struggle to remember who was even playing the Cards in the NLCS. That series and Edmonds were upstaged and I think that was a missed opportunity for him to gather support for the HOF.
Was it East Cost Bias
or was it the fact that the two teams from two of the biggest markets played in a series in which one of them became the first team to come back from a 3-0 series deficit to win the series?
I don’t think it’s bias — I think it’s great theatre with two historic franchises.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
yeah
I have to admit the drama of the yankees/red sox ALCS was inescapable (police on the field!) and drowned out pretty much everything else and that isn’t primarily bias but alas, still a big block on Jimmy’s moment.
unfortunately,
it led to another Jimmy having a moment and making a horrible move
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
I agree with you on pretty much everything in this post. . .
but:
“The problem with Edmonds isn’t East Coast bias. It’s the fact that nobody recognizes his skill set as being as valuable as it was, and people always compare him with players like Bernie Williams and Andruw Jones when he was a far better player on both sides of the baseball than those guys were.”
Might that be because of East Coast bias? Really, at times in their careers, Andruw Jones and Bernie Williams had skills sets that were similar to Jimmy Ballgames, Jones more so than Williams, IMHO, it’s just that (pulling this out of memory, as i don’t have time to research right now), neither had a peak as high or as long as Edmonds, and neither aged as gracefully.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Aug 12, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Why isn't Griffey compared to those guys?
Because the perception is that Griffey was a much better player than Edmonds and he had a much longer career. If the ECB was involved, then all players would be compared to EC players and that simply doesn’t happen.
I wouldn’t consider Atlanta (who had the best player that nobody remembers as a great player, Dale Murphy) as part of any bias towards one half of the country. Had Murphy played hit best years on those 90’s Braves teams he’d probably have a shot at the HOF.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Murphy was a damn good player.
He was one of those guys that you hated to play against because, in some way, he’d find a way to beat you. And he could flat out pound the ball. He just had the serious misfortune of playing for the Braves during a period in which they were awful. I would guess kinda like Pags in the 90’s.
Like the old joke went: The Braves and Michael Jackson both were a glove on one hand for no apparent reason.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 12, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
dammit
*wore
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 12, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Murphy was probably the player I feared most as a young Cards fan.
He was terrific.
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I meant to put "Pags and Lankford".
f’ing multitasking.
PS. I’m not saying that Pags is anywhere near Murphy with a bat, but his best defensive years were on some really futile teams.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 12, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Pags was a great player on those teams under Torre
In fact, the story is that Pags is one of the reasons that Torre got the Yankees job in the first place.
I had the misfortune of watching many of those games in the mid-90’s after growing up on Whitey’s Runnin’ Redbirds in the 80’s.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Oh god, early-to-mid 90's Cardinals baseball.
Pedro Guerrero, Tom Brunansky, Greg Jeffries, Andres Galarraga in between his stints as a good hitter in Atlanta and Colordao…
Juan Agosto and Rene Arocha on the mound…
Not good times. Bad times.
Big Cat was with Les Expos
prior to being a member of the ’Birds if I remember correctly — then went and made a career out of hitting at Coors.
Jefferies was my favorite player behind Pags (I was a catcher for YEARS) and Lankford on those early 90’s teams. Just having a first baseman who plays like a second baseman was unique.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Oh yeah,
Facing Dawson and Gallaraga was not fun. It’s amazing the amount of talent that went thru the Expos and they never really did anything. Of course, baseball in Quebec was like a beach resort in the Arctic Circle, the people just looked at like “WTF?”.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 12, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
The strike year was their year, IMO.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Absolutely.
6 game lead, fans were going to the games, talk of a new stadium.
Of course everything was so positive during a year that had little chance of finishing.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
If Dawson didn't exist, that team would have moved out of Montreal WAY earlier.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
Ahem -- The Strike of '94 killed the Expos.
That’s the Cold Hard Facts. ©Coors Light/FESPN
The ’94 Expos were 34 games over .500 at the time of the strike (74-40), were getting career years out of Moises Alou, Larry Walker, and Ken Hill, a young, not-yet-dominant Pedro, and their attendance had started to turn around as that team started winning. They had a great young corps of players with a great farm system that would spawn David Segui, Mark Grudzelanek, Vlad Guerrero, Javy Vazquez, and Orlando Cabrera within the next 4 seasons.
Had they won the World Series that year, and looking at the standings, they probably had a legit shot and would have been the favorite to win it at the time of the strike, they might have survived, gotten a new stadium (which was being talked about even with the horrible attendance of the previous few years), and been an elite team that could have kept it’s talent together for the rest of the decade.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
6 game lead over Atlanta.
They were cruising.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
I remember that season
because I had Griffey, Alou, Walker, Gwynn, and Paul O’Neill as my fantasy outfield starters that season, along with Ken Hill and Fassero as starters on my team.
I won my league running away based mostly on those 5 guys, four of which were on that Expos team.
My fantasy team’s batting average that year was .312. AS A TEAM. Talk about catching lightning in a bottle….lol
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
How was fantasy baseball done back then?
Was it paper and calculators, or was that new-fangled “world wide web” thingy sufficiently advance to handle something like fantasy sports?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I always thought strat-o-matic
was sort of the baseball equivalent of Dungeons and Dragons. Although, I think it came earlier?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
We used Excel and USA Today at that time
and then everything got mailed out once a week.
You could only adjust lineups once a week back then (on Monday, since the stats came out on Tuesdays and Thursdays weeks ran Tuesday to Monday), even in 5X5 roto.
For an 18 team league that used both leagues, data entry was a BITCH.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Yep...Baseball weekly.
We updated our stats every Tuesday, IIRC. And it was only a buck.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Yep...Baseball weekly.
We updated our stats every Tuesday, IIRC. And it was only a buck.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Fuck.
That’s really sad. They were eleventy billion games over five hundred.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Not to mention:
- Gwynn was hitting .394 at the time of the strike
- Griffey had 40 homers with 51 games left and a legit shot at Maris, as I pointed out earlier in the thread.
- That Expos team had a shot at 115 wins, which would have been the best record in MLB history at that time.
- Frank Thomas had a .487 OBP. Nobody had finished a season with a .500 OBP since Ted Williams and Mickey Mantle did it in 1957.
- The Yankees were in position to go to the World Series, which probably would have been Don Mattingly’s only World Series appearance.
That strike year was horrible from a lot of different angles.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Yeah, the sheer amount of amazing things going on
before the strike is just crazy.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Thomas was also chasing Maris.....
he had 38 dingers.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
and matt williams, right?
he’s the one i remember most, for some reason
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
That's who I was trying to remember.
Ya…monster season from him.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Wow.
I had totally forgotten about how good that team was. Destined to always be the bridesmaid and never the bride.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 12, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
They would be ahead of us by 10games.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 12, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I remember listening to Jack Buck
Call games with Ken Hill starting for the cards in my basement (I wonder how we acquired him?). Todd Zeile as our power source… eeeek. How about the one year Tewksbury won 10 games before ASB. Ahh I was young (born in ’85) but I remember, although I remember more about baseball card value than box scores. I had a clean sweep of Hideo Nomo inserts, I think it was a Donruss series. Worth about 6 hundy, looked em up about oh 10 years ago and they are basically worthless. Aw crap… RBI Baseball 3, Mountain Dew, and Pizza Rolls… now I have a freaking mortgage. Groundballs against the garage with a tennis ball, now cleaning out the garage and creating shelving??? Kripes.
the Cards drafted Hill
iirc
I also want to address this... Hi there... What's your name? My name's Heisenberg. You like Colby HRs, I like Colby HRs. We have that in common. I'm a Gemini. Maybe we should hook up sometime. Looks like you need a towel, here have mine. *SCREAM* Oh sorry, I should have gave you a clean one.
Heh
My older brother and his friend were huge into baseball cards in the early nineties. Many hours were spent at the friend’s house sorting cards, looking up prices, making trades, etc. And playing the original RBI Baseball.
They were both Oakland A’s fans. My brother’s favorite player was Jose Canseco, I’m pretty sure our friend’s was Ricky Henderson.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I was a pirates fan
in the early 90s. We were living in New Mexico at the time, and my dad was from pittsburgh. I stopped watching after the strike and we moved to stl. louis about the same time.
I didn’t become a Cardinals fan until 2005. Started listening to them on the radio at work to kill time…
Shannon hooked me.
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
and this is when i became a fan, 1991. i can't believe i got sucked in.
p.s. greg jefferies was awesome.
p.p.s. so was todd zeile.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
You became a fan when they were at their worst?
That’s impressive.Of course, I can vaguely remember that the teams of the 70’s were just awful as well. I don’t so much remember it beyond that I just loved watching baseball. Therefore I loved the Cardinals and to an extent the Pirates. I just remember people around me discussing how bad the Cards were and I could absorb the fact that they didn’t win much. The Pirates used to be a damn fine team. I have hated the Cubs to my bones from birth though.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 12, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I "became a fan" during that period by default
I was born in 1984, so I don’t really remember anything about the Cardinals prior to this period. As a kid I knew about the eighties, but I was more familiar with players like Lankford and Geronimo Pena and Todd Zeile. And I remember hating Andre Dawson because he was clearly really good (I have this memory of being at a game and he hit this screamer of a home run which made me nervous every time he came up after that).
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
You guys are making me feel guilty
I didn’t start following the team until 1999
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Heh
I remember it dawning on me in sixth grade that the Cardinals were really good and in the playoffs. And that Ozzie was retiring after the year so that was his last chance to win something. I hated the Braves for a long time…
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I started becoming a serious fan in 2004
when I discovered I could combine my geekitude with baseball through the medium of the internet. However, my college workload jumped up dramatically that semester, so I was busy writing big papers through large parts of the post season. Before I knew it, they were down three games to none against the Red Sox and I had barely seen any of it.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
That's how I was with the Rams
I hated Tony Banks so much that I stopped watching until he was gone. He left after the ’98 season…I got to watch us win it all. :)
2002.
"I don't know where Cueto learned to fight."-- Chris Carpenter
do not mess with yadi f. molina
Early 50s
I signed up the year Musial hit 5 hrs in one game. I remember the kids in the schoolyard talking about it, and I looked into what all the fuss was about. Mallinkraut school in south STL.
by Remember Kenny B on Aug 12, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I was wondering, but tempted to not mess with a person’s baseball memories :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_hitters_with_four_home_runs_in_one_game
THAT is a small list!
Cool sub-story
Gehrig hit a deep fly in his final at-bat that narrowly missed being a fifth home run. The center fielder made a running catch with his back to the plate. The center field corner at Shibe Park was about 470 feet from the plate at that time, so if the ball had been over the center fielder’s head, writers speculated that it could have gone for an inside-the-park home run and Gehrig’s fifth four-bagger of the day.[
What was VEB like in the 50s?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
It took a lot longer to post.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 12, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
And damn y'all are making me feel old.
Except for Remember Kenny B, who is, evidently, older than dirt.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 12, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
So we can blame you for Aaron Miles?
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 12, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not responsible. I never knew his mother.
by Remember Kenny B on Aug 12, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
never knew vs. don't remember
big difference.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 12, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I actually love it when people who watched a different generation of Cardinals post on here
Different perspective than the “20-something sabermetric” crowd
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
in the 50s
Like I have said before, everything was done with a Big Chief tablet and a number 2 pencil. I lived in 8 states and got KMOX in all but California and Massachusetts.
by Remember Kenny B on Aug 12, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Man, I wish my school supplies had awesome designs like this:
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
You must be about my age.
I was in grade school in the 50’s and yes I had a Big Chief tablet and a number 2 pencil.
I can’t believe the people who say they started following the Cardinals and they were in college etc. I probably was listening to games on the radio before I could walk.
"I told myself from the very beginning: 'If he's going to throw a shutout, then he's going to tie,'" Wainwright said. "He was not going to beat me today."
I was born in '60
so my earliest memories are of them being in World Series in ’67 and ’68. It made the ’70s kinda tough to stomach.
youneverknow
that would've been rough
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 12, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
harry caray, jack buck, joe garigiola
those were the days
those guys made broadcasting made bad teams interesting
dan and al wouldn’t have lasted 3 days in that business
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
wouldn't have been called Viva El Birdos..
Since I am pretty sure that phrase started in the 60’s… perhaps it woulda been called Gas House Gang.
"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean
my dad was a "Knotholer" in the 30's
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
same here... i was a fan for FIVE YEARS before they even made the playoffs....
sigh…that NLCS with Atlanta….then i had to wait four more years for another post season.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
Was that the Rick Ankiel imploding series?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
that was my first year of college and i came to phoenix to watch ankiel pitch against randy johnson
it was the first MLB game i had been to since like 96. and ankiel won. it was amazing.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
FIVE YEARS?!
Good thing you didn’t like the Cubs!
/low hanging fruit
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Aug 12, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
POW!
zing!
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 12, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
ha, well i was comparing it to what the proverbial "20-something sabermetric crowd"
that has seen a decade straight of domination.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
Imagine how much the 70s hurt
when you have memories of 64, 67 and 68
"You've got to have an attitude if your going to go far in this game." -- Bob Gibson
64 was the greatest!
That was the first championship of my life(ok , since the 40s, and even I don’t remember that). I remember having mapped out what had to happen for them to win the pennant, and it was ridiculous, but it happened. One of the first times I was drunk!!
by Remember Kenny B on Aug 12, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
made up for just short run of 63
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
+1
pretty much exactly my sentiments above. Still, I loved watching Brock, and Gibson etc. even though the team was not that great.
youneverknow
My grandfather
had me looking at box scores and listening to the radio as early as ‘77. I really didn’t pay attention or get it until the year he died … September of ’82. Been paying attention in his memory ever since, and happy that he left me the gift of some great baseball through my childhood.
let's go bitches!
I was born into being a fan...
My dad grew up worshiping Musial… He met him when he was a boy one time… Then as he got older he loved watching Lou and Flood and Gibby. I was born in 1979 so my earliest memories were of the early 80’s teams… a shame that I wasn’t quite sure what was going on… I remember watching the game in San Diego when Whitey quit… sad sad day. My dad started taking me to Busch in 88 and didn’t miss a year going until 2001 while I was in the military.
"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean
Same Here
My dad was a Red Sox and Cardinals fan and I was conceived to be his baseball watching buddy I think. There were no other players other than Musial and Yaz in my dad’s mind until a certain Jose Alberto Pujols came along. I was born in ‘80 and my earliest baseball memory is Ozzie’s Go Crazy homerun. That home run and the fact that I played shortstop easily made Ozzie my favorite player and the Cardinals have always been my favorite team. I’m still pissed at LaRussa about the way he treated Ozzie that last year. It’s not like Royce Clayton was God or something.
I never knew it growing up but my grandmother was a huge Dodgers fan while they were in Brooklyn (mainly since she hated the Yankees) but quit baseball cold turkey when they moved to LA. She became a closet Cardinals fan sometime in the 80s thanks to a scrappy second baseman we all know and is now the biggest Yadier Molina fan you’ll find anywhere. It’s a rare gameday that doesn’t include a phone call from her asking me what in the world is wrong with “insert any player here” and the declaration that if he doesn’t hurry up and start playing she’ll have to go to St. Louis and give him a talking to. Nobody on the team is safe either. Albert better watch himself or he’ll have a 97 pound 74 year old Irish grandma on his ass.
Baseball just runs in our family I guess.
by WizardofOz1982 on Aug 18, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
You must be about my age then.
I almost stopped watching them, but I couldn’t. I guess it was like a train wreck that you just can’t help yourself but look at. After Auggie died, the whole atmosphere changed. The Busch family was way worse than DeWallett ever thought about being. They had no intention of putting any more money than necessary into the team.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 12, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
The Gold Gloves
Edmond’s Gold Gloves should put him in. While playing one of the three critical defensive positions, he put up good to great offensive numbers. Ozzie made it with his Gold Gloves and good to poor offense. I know shortstop is tougher etc, but I still think his defense should put him in.
by Remember Kenny B on Aug 12, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
There's not a single outfielder in the HOF because of his defense.
Not one. Ozzie was an above average hitter for his position for most of his career (not to mention being one of the top 10 base stealers of all time when he retired), so he wasn’t inducted strictly for his defense. Brooks Robinson probably got in on just his defense alone, but he’s about the only guy I can think of that got in without any consideration for his bat since it was league average or below for his whole career.
Also, people don’t recognize Jimmy as an elite defensive player. He was, but people don’t see him that way. In arguments about this, people point to Griffey, Andruw, Grissom, and Lofton all being better defensive players than Jimmy was, even though he’s probably as good or better than all those guys in terms of turning flyballs into outs.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Defense plus offense
i did not mean to suggest that he should get in on his defense alone. I was saying that his defense, combined with his plus offense is enough to get him in over other good hitting outfielders with more home runs.
by Remember Kenny B on Aug 12, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
One of these days fourstick
I will buy you a beer and we will laugh it up. Thanks my friend.
Boy a frosty cold Budweiser would be great about now"…long pause…then an "aahhh". --Mike Shannon
I think all your other points are valid
I just think your rants about “East Coast Bias” and “The Yankees taking over the world because of their vast amounts of money and how their ruining the game because of it” come from a purely emotional base and don’t have a lot of relevant factual merit.
I kinda feel the need to set the record straight because your arguments are very subjective, which is fine — but you can’t pass emotional opinions off as facts.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Fair enough
I think alot of my frustrations on the whole “East Coast” deal is more about (in my opinion) the way the current media today operates. Be it ESPN or whatever. I let them get under my skin and I vent out about it here too much I’ll admit. But sometimes I have to vent it out to get it out of my system sometimes..lol. I don’t post everyday so the times I do I can tend to pump up the same themes when I do….which isn’t on purpose but it happens.
But hey it’s all in good fun and I’d still buy you a beer.
Boy a frosty cold Budweiser would be great about now"…long pause…then an "aahhh". --Mike Shannon
I'm not saying you're wrong in a lot of those cases
It’s just that the facts don’t seem to support your case in this instance and in a couple of other instances (mainly the “Yankees outspending everyone is bad for baseball”, in which I think the opposite is true — dynasties are GOOD for pro sports in general regardless of how they are developed).
I think that there is an East Coast Media Bias, but why wouldn’t there be? Those networks are in the business of getting as many eyeballs as they can, and putting a Royals – Twins game on Monday Night Baseball just isn’t going to draw the kind of share they need to get advertising dollars. It’s more economics than it is a blatant disregard for sports stories in the rest of the country. L.A.’s market is clearly hurt by the lack of an NFL team — they would get far more coverage if they had a team involved in the most popular sports league.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Straussie
used the phrase “regression to the mean” in his story today. Maybe he is trying to win some of us over?
Miles, in at third for his defense
The prodigal son...
has returned???
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
anyone steppin' on me, you'll get burned!
oh… this isn’t “jump around”.
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Keep on hatin', Brandon Phillips. You woke the sleeping giant!
Fire Tony LaRussa
by zoomzoomj88 on Aug 12, 2010 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Word to your moms, I came to drop bombs
I got more rhymes than the Bible’s got psalms
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I'll serve your ass like John McEnroe
If your girl steps up I’m smackin’ the ho
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Aug 12, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Keep the unicorns between Strauss and yourself.
He’s just trying to get us to put our guards down.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
by TBender on Aug 12, 2010 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
strauss won't win me over.
not after he criticized a fellow VEBer.
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Keep on hatin', Brandon Phillips. You woke the sleeping giant!
Fire Tony LaRussa
twitter drama
he called danup a bat boy or something.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
I believe it was towel boy.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
get your dramaz right!
/brawl
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
well it shows just how much i give a shit about what strauss says
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
are you still reading his chats, IHB?
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I did yesterday......
/what can I say, I was bored.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
With no dull knives within reach.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
i did scan over it when someone had a link about the FCC fine. but it was only a scan!
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
keep telling yourself that...
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
what did he do call them a lil bitch or somthing like that?
You fit into me
like a hook into an eye
a fish hook
an open eye
Maybe it was coincidence or a regression to the mean. Maybe it was something more tangible such as irritation, even outrage at an upstart opponent’s reference to them as “little bitches.”
Regardless, the Cardinals spent Wednesday afternoon setting forth their own identity in a 6-1 admonishment of the now second-place Cincinnati Reds.
Nah. All he’s really saying is that the Cards got a little meaner. I’m not convinced he knows what the phrase means. Um… the definition of that phrase.
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Wainwright v. Johnson v. Jiminez v. Halladay
Look, I know how awesome Roy has been this season. But I really don’t like FIP as an evaluating stat. I look at FIP the way I look at BABIP. When BABIP is higher than a player’s career average, look for the player to cool off. When xFIP is significantly higher than a player’s ERA, look for that player’s ERA to come off. But just because BABIP or xFIP are high, does not mean the player has not accomplished his ERA. . . Because Adam’s K/BB is nowhere near as good as Halladay’s means that Halladay should have better (park adjusted) numbers that Wainwright. But, he doesn’t. As someone who has watched Adam make about 15 starts this year, the guy has been too incredible for me to believe Roy has been that much better.
Take yesterday’s start. Adam only had 4 Ks. Two of them came after Skip made his error and Adam promptly struck out Bruce and Stubbs ON SIX PITCHES. And all three of the pitches to Bruce were in the strike zone. Yesterday he struck out Votto on 3 pitches, the third was called a ball (when Molina got up and jogged to the dugout before being called back), and then Adam struck out Votto “again” with a nasty curve. Adam could be a lower inning higher K guy, and I think a lot of the commenters here would contend (as would WAR) that is more valuable. But I don’t buy it. I don’t think the model has yet been developed that accurately describes what I feel about Adam. But he has been too awesome.
by EddieHarsch on Aug 12, 2010 8:54 AM EDT reply actions 15 recs
My first rec.
You like me, you really like me!
I have a few more thoughts to add. First, I have to say, I’m just explaining how I look at pitchers and am, in no way, contending that I am right.
Statistical analysis of hitting is fantastic, because we can all logically assume that a batter has the same goal in 95% of his PAs. In blow out there might be less focus. But every batter knows he is going to get judged by BA, RBI, HR, and now OPS. Every batter is trying to hit the ball hard. Even when “contact” hitters are “asked” to pull the ball to the right side with a guy on second, the guy still likely has a shot at getting a hit, and those instances come up so rarely in the grand scheme of things. From that line of thinking, came the concept of separating out the data irrelative to the context of a game. We destroyed the concept of “clutch” because batters are ALWAYS trying hard and ALMOST ALWAYS have the same goal whether they are up 4 or down 5.
But the pitching statistical revelation, did not come from that line of thinking. It came from the fact that the pitchers who had the most Ks, the fewest BBs, and gave up the fewest HRs were generally the best pitchers. And it was very logical, and certainly indicative of “stuff” (Ks), “control” (BBs) and a combination (HRs). And it has led to many great discoveries about what pitchers will perform the best. However, what we have missed is that a SPs goal is “to win.” They still go after wins, then CGs, then maybe Ks. Pitcher’s certainly have different goals, on the hitter. Get a flyball, get a K, get a ground ball, jam him. There are, in fact, so many more motivations, that I just don’t see how we trust these xFIPs and FIPs so, so much.
Take yesterday, for example (short, short sample size alert). Arroyo v. Wainwright. They were playing on a 100 degree day, on a rock hard field. Arroyo had Votto, Phillips, Janish, and Rolen in the infield. Adam had Lopez, Ryan, Skip, and Pujols. Arroyo got 7 grounders, 3 of which were hits. Wainwright got 14 grounders, one of which was a hit. The cards were hitting grounders hard, the Reds were barely making contact. So, do we really believe that they were giving up the same kinds of grounders? Wouldn’t a better pitcher, always outperform his FIP, considering he’s giving up fewer hard hit balls?
Pitching independent of fielding, doesn’t really exist because the two are so interwoven. Yes, it’s something interesting to look at. But when it’s “all” someone like Law uses, it misses a lot.
by EddieHarsch on Aug 12, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Depends on what “so, so much” means. What SINGLE stat do you trust more than FIP/xFIP, and why? I don’t think you’d find any disagreement in SABR circles that it’s optimal to look at a wider matrix, such as the stat set prescribed at http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/evaluating-pitcher-talent/ . But FIP/xFIP are pretty awesome in the all-in-one class.
This article is very cool
Infield flies are automatic outs, essentially, so it’s best to separate them from outfield flies for analysis like this. Since evidence has shown that pitchers don’t have a strong year to year control over their infield fly percentage, however, when evaluating true talent levels, it’s best to assume something like a normal infield fly percentage for a pitcher, rather than the one he’s posting at the moment.
Take this quote from the article. Very cool, and very true. And this is sort of what I feel about FIP. All right, infield flies are flukey and regress to the mean. . . But, a pitcher still should GET CREDIT FOR THEM. They still happened. They were still pitches that are automatic outs. Perhaps, it does not show his “true talent level.” But it still certainly helped the hell out of his team. If at the end of the season, infield flies are responsible for a better year than he should have had. . .Great, if your a GM. DON’T SIGN HIM. But, he still gets the Cy. His team still won a bunch of games because of what he did. Why should he get shut out of awards. If it happens over 162 games, it happened.
I just think there is a difference between talent and performance.
I hear your perspective. And it’s good to define “performance” in comparison with talent. I think “performance” can take on a lot of different meanings, and have thought about and should probably break the habit of even using the word myself. I generally like to think about things in terms of “skill” and “outcomes.”
"Infield Flies are automatic outs"
Except for two weeks ago. :)
But, I do think ground balls get generalized far too much, and that makes a problem for stats like BABIP / FIP.
Using Cardinals batters as an example, if you have Holliday and Miles both hitting ground balls at the exact same trajectory with defenders at the exact same position, you don’t assume equal BABIP. Holliday’s ground ball is likely to be hit with enough power that it may reach the outfield in a second flat (or less), while Miles’ might take two seconds to reach the same point. If the defender’s gap to the GB trajectory is in the medium range (let’s say 6-7 feet), that is a batter-controlled function that makes one of those a hit and one an out.
If you could pull BABIP and FIP numbers factoring in the batter’s ISO, I think that shows better how much would truly be luck. (BABIP+ISO/1.8) for Miles would be .211 and Holliday would be at .306. The 1.8 is just an arbitrary guess. Dividing by 2 wouldn’t yield good numbers since ISO #s tend to fall around 20-30% less than BA (using the 20% has an example, hence 1.8 instead of 2).
Too bad it’d take some monster computing to figure that in a FIP type stat, since you’d need to calculate it for each batter the pitcher faced.
Stats like BABIP & ERA? FIP doesn’t consider batted ball types. xFIP only considers FB% – and I agree with your point about degrees of classification, but I think that FB% is easier to call than GB%.
On Holliday in particular, I was like “WTF infield hits” when he came over last year, but have settled to the conclusion that he hits the ball so damned hard that he earns hit one-hopper hits. I wonder about the future as his bat speed begins to betray him, but we’ll see. Hit F/X-style measurement could give us speed off the bat in addition to objective trajectories and such (where categories don’t even matter), and I agree that would be an improvement. But I think FIP and xFIP are fine.
isn't BABIP
considered a skill for hitters?
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
Only when combined with
batted ball classifications could you really consider this a “skill”. It’s definitely repeatable.
For example, Ichiro. He gets 7-8% more infield hits than a league average hitter over his entire career, which is going to inflate his BABIP by about that much as well. .300 is average, so a 7% increase would put his average BABIP at about .321, just on infield hits. You also have to figure that he reaches base more often on ground balls because he hits a great number of them than anyone else, and that he rarely hits a fly ball, so his career BABIP of .357 certainly isn’t lucky — he’s doing lots of things that allow him to have a BABIP around .057 better than the league average player. Therefore, it’s skill rather than luck that is inflating his BABIP.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Yes, just mentioning it because I made a gaffe.
Not very familiar with pitching stats, I was thinking FIP had a consideration for batted ball types.
The (BABIP+ISO/1.8) was something I was thinking about a couple weeks back during a game where Miles got a couple hits. It astounded me because, honestly, it felt like they took three seconds for them to reach the outfield and I have no clue how they didn’t get played for outs, it definitely felt more like luck. I was just messing around looking at numbers for different players on Baseball Reference and combined it put people in what seemed like more realistic ranges.
I’ve never really looked at how FIP and some pitching stats are calculated. Thinking FIP worked in hit types, I was wondering if the same thing could apply at the other end of the matchup since that was the time a couple weeks ago when people were discussing if “Ground ball Pitcher” is a legitimate classification.
OR. Short answer: me dumb.
No worries, bro. And I think speed off the bat and hang time definitely matter, BTW, and I’m excited about seeing them monitored in the future. The FIP formula is nice, by the way: K, BB, HR, IP, league.
Both of those thing are in Hit F/X, which teams now have access to
They won’t let me look at it though =(
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
It's amazing how simple it is
Is Marcel the projection system that has a really simple formula compared to the rest, but still performs really well?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Yes
Same guy, too: Tom Tango. I think he does a masterful job on establishing credible and well-considered baselines.
I guess the pantheon
of people who invent baseball stats or projection systems is smaller than I thought.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Next you're going to tell me
that DanUp and TotallyNotDanUp, infamous writer of baseball slash fanfiction, are actually one and the same.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 12, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
there is baseball fan fiction? what happens in them?
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
Well, when TLR and Aaron Miles loves each other very much...
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
I honestly think it's mostly love stories
No joke. My sister showed me proof that it does exist. I believe it was a story about Mark Mulder, Barry Zito, and Eric Chavez when they were all in Oakland. I was too chicken to read any of it, but it was clearly romantic.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
A quick Google search reveals
This.
I’m too afraid to click…
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
I'm not... but one click was one click too far.
Title: Distraction (4K)
Author Acroarcs
Team(s) St. Louis Cardinals
Genre slash
Character(s) Albert Pujols, Scott Rolen
Pairing(s) Albert Pujols/Scott Rolen
Rating PG
Summary Rolen needs a little help focusing during a game.
Don't say hi to me.
I can't stop laughing
A little help “focusing”, eh?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
WARNING BLOCK QUOTE SOMEWHAT INAPPROPRIATE DEFINITELY DISTURBING
"Here," Albert went on. "This will help." His hands started moving on Scott’s shoulders, squeezing and sliding across the fabric of the uniform. Scott threw a questioning glance over his shoulder and got a broad smile in return. "It’ll help," Albert said.
"That’s not what the look was for," Scott said quietly, stepping away from the massage even as his back arched into it. "Here?"
"It’s okay," Albert repeated, but he finished it off with a pat on Scott’s right arm anyway and leaned in again. "I’ll get some more later," he said softly.
Scott chuckled. "Now I’m just going to be distracted all game, you know."
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Aug 12, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What have we loosed (losed?)
upon VEB???
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
i just threw up in my mouth a little bit.
that is so so so so so not cool.
oh god i can’t not picture it.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
That was way worse than 2 girls 1 cup
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Aug 12, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
you kids are so chickenshit.
I don’t think there’s anything of quality out there; sources say all the halfway decent ones are Red Sox, Yankees, or… A’s. [shrug] I have no idea. but there is a definite East Coast bias. don’t even bother — unless it’s another VEBer.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
what do you need to qualify one of TotallyNotDanUp's creations as "halfway decent"?
Don't say hi to me.
I don't think this 'person' writes about the Cardinals
I’ve been told there are so few Cards fanfic out there, the actual DanUp may count for 50% of them, easily.
but if he did, you know for sure Lohse would order an Orange Slice.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
with an orange slice in it.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
exactly.
I would trust andi_k to write one… she actually pays attention to details. if you must know anything about fanfic — other than the fact your young (and not-so-young) female relatives are probably writing it [99%] — the romantic ones [99%] kind of function like Twilight. the people turn into characters and it’s not creepy stalking at all, it’s really luuuuuuuv [99%]. it’s called OOC… out-of-character.
it’s not really the guys that we know. most fanfic producers [99%] probably wouldn’t know a handshake dance if it bit them in the face.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I also know too much about Dragonball.
I have friends. they tell me things.
I… sadly, listen to them.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
don't... just don't.
mattybobo has much to answer for!!
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Hey, I was just having some fun
I find the idea of DanUp secretly being a renowned baseball fanfiction author hilarious. And I hope he doesn’t hate me now.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I meant about the Dragonball
I’m not so sure about DanUp. He’s pretty renowned.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
the Actually Good 1% is probably written by your college professor.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
i admit it. i wrote some dawson's creek fanfic back in the day.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
i was 16. whatever. i even came up with appropriate songs to be playing at key moments.
i wish i knew where that was i would post an excerpt.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
I bet I could write up a pretty sweet "Boy Meets Word" fanfic right now
I know more about that show than anybody should
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
One of my best friends was obsessed with that show
He kept telling me about how Corey should have stuck with that other girl instead of Topeka or Tapioca or whatever her name was.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
everyone knows it's Topanga.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Which other girl?
Lauren or Angela?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
let me tell ya something guys...
if your gf … or fiancee… happens to write fanfic in her spare time, you get major, major points for being Understanding and Accepting. most of them are hiding it.
then maybe they’ll take you to a convention where they…. meet up…. with their girl friends. I’m just sayin’.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
see.
actually the people writing the articulate, spell-checked fanfic are in your demographic and spants’ demographic. if you think the VEB social circle is gigantic — you have not seen anything yet.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
So, Pujols/Rolen OTP?
Me, I’m a def. more of a Pujols/Polanco, but I’m also sort of a traditionalist. I like to stick to canon more than most.
OK, even though this was parody I feel dirty just typing it.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I'm blaming you for all this.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Yeah, honestly, this is 75% my fault
I’m okay with it
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
you should go for that Boy Meets World fanfic
I think that one is actually popular, though, so you might have competition. (popularity does fluctuate, though.)
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
someone should submit this subthread to bud selig as a selling point for why there should be no off days
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
by IHeartBoog on Aug 12, 2010 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There are things you cannot unsee
Next VEB day, someone will mention this.
Never invite that person to VEB day again.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
I learn something new on this site every day.
"Now that's how you talk. You don't talk to the newspapers, you talk to the baseball." -- Shannon
And sometimes, you wish you hadn't.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
Apparently I was so afraid that I didn't click "Open in new tab"
Sorry everybody
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
this thread...
what. the. fuck.
"I don't know where Cueto learned to fight."-- Chris Carpenter
do not mess with yadi f. molina
The NHL stuff is probably worse
Just sayin’.
by Paperwork Ninja on Aug 13, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Invent OPEN ones, yeah. BP uses stuff like eQA, eqAVG, and WARP rather than FIP, wOBA, and WAR. Similar concepts, though, and there are many more. Lord knows how many more if we could peek behind the curtain of organizations like the Red Sox. But for the public stuff, Tango is a major player.
Yeah, I meant the ones readily available to the public
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Great article and it makes a lot of sense...
but, he knocks down FIP and especially xFIP but then says he uses it. It seems he was pretty close to making his own stat. I am not a statistics guy, but has anyone tried to build off of this guy’s work? it seems like it could be done easily enough. Just appropriately weigh all the % stats he mentioned and then hit enter
I don’t think he’s knocking either of them for what they are: the best “simple” all-in-one pitching stats we have. There are others – like tRA/tERA as mentioned above – which factor additional variables (including batted ball types, which aren’t addressed in the article). But of the five (5) stats mentioned, xFIP hits on four (4) components: K, BB, GB, HR/FB. And LOB% doesn’t matter at all when you’re not looking at run averages.
The article was written by Dave Cameron. You might know his other site, Fangraphs, which uses FIP to create pitcher WAR and pushes xFIP in their default pitcher sort :)
Adam's words after the game....
Something to the effect of…It was too hot to stand out there and strike guys out. Just get my groundballs and get off the field.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Somebody help me out here.
In an effort to see if Adam’s “style” of pitching (ERA better than FIP) is consistent/repeatable, I took a look at his BR page and calculated his FIP for every season he’s been a starter.
Admission – I used the 3.2 constance for each season, and I know it may vary but I didn’t feel like looking it up. Also, I did the math myself, so if my numbers disagree with some database out there, the error’s probably on me.
Results looked something like this
Season – ERA – FIP
’07 – 3.70 – 3.80
’08 – 3.20 – 3.80 (only 132 innings here)
’09 – 2.63 – 3.20
’10 – 1.99 – 2.96 (thus far)
There might be a sample size issue, but that suggests to me that outperforming his FIP might be a skill that Adam has. Whether it’s due to the Duncan philosophy, Waino’s manliness, or some other pixie magic of which we’re unaware, I can’t really say.
So, can anyone suggest a method – and I’ve already thought of calculating all the Cards’ pitcher FIPs a while back and comparing that way – of figuring out/going into more depth in regards to whether a pitcher can consistently do better than his FIP would suggest?
Elite level pitchers seem to have ERA's the outperform FIP's during their elite seasons
Guys like Maddux, Glavine, Randy Johnson, Schilling, etc. but their career numbers have those values nearly always within .010 of each other.
I have no idea why this happens — but I think it’s probably a really good sign, considering the company he would be keeping in this case.
One interesting counter-example would be Javy Vazquez, who nearly always has a higher FIP than an ERA.
I think that one factor might be that those pitchers who underperform their FIP are better at pitching with men on base (or “bearing down” in baseball terms), therefore they let fewer runners that actually reach base score runs, even though they let a significant number reach base via base hits or walks.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Forgive me if I've totally misunderstood FIP
But the idea is to take batted balls out of the equation because there is way more noise and dependence on defense than with K’s, homers, and walks, right?
Isn’t it just possible that good pitchers have more of an effect on their batted balls (ie, preventing xbh and runs and stuff) than inferior pitchers? Have all the studies been done to disprove this already? I mean, people always bring up the idea that it’s possible for a hitter to have the skill of maintaining a higher BABIP. Why not the other way for pitchers?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I'm not saying it's a huge effect, but there's got to be something.
We know that there truly are “groundball pitchers” and “flyball pitchers” for example.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Pitchers are generally considered to have significant control over GB/FB ratios, but not the number of HRs allowed per FB or BABIP. Voros McCracken’s work on “DIPS” (defense independent pitching stats) broke the ground on this stuff. One of the supporting articles is available at http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=878
please, use the subject line
it will be your friend!
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Aug 12, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Im looking at the length of the comment
with the text, then the sig, the comments get rather long and collapsing them is, IMO best.
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Aug 12, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
the subject line thing is really just for posting pictures. it doesn’t much matter for text.
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
until you get to seven miles of text
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Nice for Walls Of Text, true,
but those don’t slow the thread down nearly as much as pics, which was the original reason to encourage subject line use.
astrostl’s subject-less comment was pretty small, but getting into the habit would be good.
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
it's also a cultural thing
it weeds out newbs.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
yes, good pitchers will have lower BABIP
by vivaelpujols on Aug 12, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
*Good pitchers will have lower BABIP's than bad pitchers
That’s true, but that does not give license to take a good pitchers BABIP at face value. Wainwright’s BABIP is .258 this year, which implies he is getting very lucky.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 12, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
It does imply he's getting very lucky...
watching the games, it seems to me that he is getting the ball hit much worse off of him this year, though. It seems to be a ton of easy plays for the defense. Soft rollers, pop ups, easy fly balls. You don’t see many web gems off Waino’s batted balls this season.
That doesn't mean he's not getting lucky
Pitchers can’t control exactly where the ball is hit, so if Wainwright allows 20 weakly hit groundballs and all of them go right to Brendan Ryan, that’s still getting lucky.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 13, 2010 3:01 AM EDT up reply actions
True
But even if it’s a weakly hit ground ball 15 feet from Schumaker, it’s still a weakly hit ground ball and Schu makes the play 14.75 times out of 15 (not a kept stat.) :)
My final point on all of this is. . .
In a golf tournament, if one guy plays with better weather, or gets some lucky bounces, we don’t spend a lot of time trying to discern who “truly” played the best. At some point, it’s interesting just who one the damn thing. Even though Buster Douglass “shouldn’t” have beaten Mike Tyson, he still did; and that’s still his accomplishment. When we separate luck from sports, we separate the sport from itself. Now, if I’m a GM, yes, I need to know which players will not . .. prevent as many runs. But if I am voting on awards, I am pretty curious as to what the outcomes were.
The stuff about BABIP and the difference between hitters and pitchers?
I always assumed that troves of data have shown pitchers to have less “control” over batted balls than hitters, or something like that, but I have also wondered if maybe that was just assumed through logic.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
i'm not going there again
I argued that point several times last year. How does A.D.A.M tRA look?
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
I don't really understand tRA
It’s more complicated than FIP, right?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Ok, looking at it...
…I like tRA better, as it actually accounts for the difference between a screaming liner to a gap and a slow dribbler back to the pitcher.
true
but it’s still objective. One person’s lazy fly ball is another person’s line drive. I don’t think it accounts for defensive positioning too.
Really I think it’s important to consider ERA, FIP and tRA when trying to judge a pitcher.
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
Yeah, one thing that is clear is that there still isn't a one-size-fits-all stat yet
Even FIP depends on umpires for strike zone judgement, right?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
it does
Halliday’s FIP looks great, but it wouldn’t look so great if some of those strike three’s weren’t called ball fours in that prefect game he threw. (it still would be great actually, just not as great.)
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
Thank god Eric Gregg isn't umpiring any more.
I think the metrics would all just give up and walk away.
Actually, Eric Gregg isn't do much of anything any more.
/RIP
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
And that's not English.
doing
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
Agreed.
I wasn’t trying to suggest there was one uber-metric out there – one stat to rule them all, and in darkness bind them.
The more info, the better. I was just trying to determine how to examine the seeming discrepancy that potentially cost Waino a Cy last year.
ERA has way too much noise in a single season to capture much skill
Over a few years, then yeah, park adjusted ERA is probably a better indicator of past skill than FIP or tRA.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 12, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I read some split season correltion study that showed ERA was as predictive as FIP after like 3000 batters faced or something
I’ll look around for it.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 12, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the only thing wrong with ERA
is that people treat it as a pitcher-only stat, when it’s actually a pitcher plus defense plus some luck plus some weird arbitrary stuff stat (arbitrary like what counts as “earned” and “un-earned”). It still tells you a lot.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Agreed
I think it’s a fine pitcher/team/park stat. And a much better pitching skill stat than batting average is a hitting skill stat.
Good point about the comparison to average
Average tells you so little, it’s amazing how often people just talk in terms of average and RBI as if that’s all you need to know.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Of course it's luck.
In poker. If one guy plays much better, but doesn’t get luck, he loses the goddamn tournament. If I get my money in at 40% vs. 60% and I win, and then go on to win the tournament, I still win. Luck is always a part of sports, and it always will be. The fact that we think we can separate what is luck from what is not luck, is ludicrous. What you are calling “luck” is statistical deviations that could have many causes. But how can we arrogantly just define luck?!?!
If you’re only interested in figuring out who had the most positive outcome – rather than who was the most skilled – of course you just point at the winner, and say, “that one.”
What has been separated as generally skill (e.g. pitcher FB%) and luck (e.g. pitcher HR/FB%) has been done so using evidence and math, not arrogance.
But what you are defining as "luck" . . .
Is a skill that is not repeatable in the future. If a player can’t reasonably do something regularly, than it is “lucky” when he does it, correct?
I just don’t understand how you can say you would prefer having the pitcher (Josh Johnson) who gave up 11 HRs this year vs the one who gave up 6. You would have preferred having Johnson because it is likely he will give up HRs at a lower rate in the future, right? But he gave up the home runs. I would rather have the guy who didn’t give them up.
by EddieHarsch on Aug 12, 2010 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Unrepeatable “skills” are not skills, they’re outcomes. If I randomly flip a fair coin and it shows up exactly heads, that is not a skill. And we know why. If I make a large percentage of free throw shots, that is a skill. And we know why. FB% is shown, with study, to have a large skill influence. HR/FB% is shown, with study, to not have a large skill influence. Like throws and like flips.
Johnson has 5 HR, Wainwright has 11, not the reverse. And I went on record as saying that I like Wainwright over Johnson, because of similar xFIPs and different IPs – without even mentioning Wainwright’s 4x MLB sample size.
Do you like Johnson over Waino now that you know their correct HR totals? I doubt it.
If given a choice, I prefer having the pitcher which rates to be the better pitcher. I’m sure that you agree, and that you understand.
It does, but it’s also dependent on human beings for the classifications of line drives, fly balls, etc. One provider of this classification is Stats, Inc. (STATS) and another is Baseball Info Solutions (BIS). If you want to see just how widely they can disagree at the fringes, take a look at http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/suzr_v_buzr/ . Those differences are generated by the EXACT SAME formula being run on data, with different data sources (from the same games). This is the same batted ball classification that is used in t(E)RA.
The batted ball classification problem should eventually be solved by the use of something like Hit F/X: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-start-of-hit-fx/
Haha. Beat me to it...
But even then, you could have some problems…
“Wait, you guys are running hit fx on Windows Vista? Are you crazy? When was the last time you updated?”
“We’re running version 1.2.7…”
“Crap! We’re at 1.2.9 already! The whole season is fucked!”
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
There could be measurement issues, even with Hit F/X. But, at least it will be measured using a consistent and objective standard. BIS does what they can, only employing video scouts for so long, having them cross-check each other, etc. But it’s still human.
Exactly, I was just having fun
Even if it’s a little off, the fact that the actual standards will be the same will make everything more internally valid (or something, maybe I’m trying too hard to sound smart).
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
It's all coming back to me...
This is why people are hopeful that pitchfx and hitfx (or whatever their actual names are) can help relieve some of this by having one standard for this stuff, right?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
So, FIP avoids the question by simply rejecting batted ball classifications entirely?
That seems unnecessarily draconian. I can understand that there may be some quibbling with classifications on the fringes, but that’s impossible to avoid.
Well, it’s just one stat and just one viewpoint. I think the important thing is whether or not it has a high correlation with good outcomes, and it does.
See: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/how-well-can-we-predict-era/ and http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/mike_silva_chronicles_part_4_fip/
that may seem draconian to you,
but it WORKS EXTREMELY WELL. FIP is much better at telling you how good a pitcher is than almost anything else out there.
I want Waino to win the Cy, but to discard FIP to crown him the winner is like discarding vote-counting to elect your favorite politician because, hey, he’s got those other things that determine how good he is at winning elections.
"What exactly is that thing? A pessimism meter?" - Bruce McCurdy
That wasn't what I was trying to do.
My original desire was to see if there was some way to determine if pitchers could repeatedly, consistently outperform a given metric, in this case, FIP. I was trying to broaden the discussion, now narrow it.
I’m not suggesting something should be discarded just because I don’t like a given result it provides.
but don't Cy voters discard FIP?
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
keith law doesn't
infact, it’s all he uses apparently. So not to punish people for their bad defensive teams.
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
What I don't like about using "only" FIP
Is that it doesn’t take into account innings pitched. Remember Carpenter vs. Clemens? Clemens had better everything: K/BB, FIP, xFIP, and a little better ERA. But the guy only pitched 5 – 6 innings every night! If Carp was told to go out there and pitch 5 hard ones. He could throw 115 and get his 11 Ks. But the Cardinals were trying to win games, not get someone a Cy.
by EddieHarsch on Aug 12, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
As I’m sure you know, ERA doesn’t take IP into account either. To your greater point – which I agree is a valid one – pitcher WAR (wins above replacement) is FIP-based, but it also factors the number of innings pitched.
I'm aware.
I just think one stat to determine any player’s value is pretty stupid. Even if it’s WAR. We have so many stats that can give us such cool and fairly complete look at how a player performs, and I think too often we closed-mindedly cling to a single metric, without examining that metric quite enough.
by EddieHarsch on Aug 12, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think it’s necessarily STUPID to baseline on an all-in-one stat, but I understand your point about using more sources of data (even spoke to it specifically with a link in the other reply I just posted). I’d totally disagree that FIP/xFIP/ERA/tERA (for example) haven’t been “examined quite enough,” though; they’ve been subjects of rigorous study for years, by the best public baseball minds.
does vasquez' season
compared to waino’s season this year look bad on law’s research and vote desicion last year? obv he just looked at 09 stats alone and not previous years…just wondering
im sure he’s an okay guy but i have much disdain for him after his 101.1 interview
by guillermozeliak on Aug 12, 2010 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Lincecum won the Cy Young award last year
It wasn’t because of his win total. Clearly the voters don’t just all look at ERA and Wins anymore.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I thought Tim fairly won the Cy last year.
But his ERA and his innings pitched told the pretty complete story. He threw 30 more innings than Carp and ten more than Adam. For this year. Adam has been way better than Johnson. .. Same ERA and Adam has thrown 21 more innings. I think Adam and Roy are neck and neck. Roy plays in a bandbox and has thrown nine more innings with an awesome ERA. Adam has a 1.99 and is second in the league in IP. Because one metric says that in a hypothetical world Halladay would be giving up fewer runs, that’s awesome. I’ll take it into account. But the games are actually played. The defense and pitchers do actually interact. And giving up less than 2 runs every nine innings you throw is insane.
by EddieHarsch on Aug 12, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re endorsing ERA+IP as a complete story. WAR is basically FIP+IP, and a pitcher’s ERA itself doesn’t predict future ERA as well as FIP.
Games are played, defense matters, parks are different, and all of that. I hear ya. If the goal is to isolate individual pitching performance (and perhaps give out an award based on it), FIP/xFIP are shown to do a better job of it – with more confidence and reasoning than, “same ERA, more IP.”
If we look at “what happened,” FIP accounts for the fact that Waino has given up 11 dingers to Johnson’s 5 (with due respect to IP). If we look at “what should have happened,” xFIP has them practically neck-and-neck on a rate level – which would give Waino the clear nod on account of IP. With more confidence and reasoning than, “same ERA, more IP.”
Why should the Cy. . .
be about which pitcher have the best ERA in the future?
or about which pitcher would have been the best if what should have happened actually happened?
Those are my problems with over-reliance on FIP or xFIP or tRA, which I’ve stated here many times before.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Aug 12, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
So should it be about which pitcher was pretty good but got so lucky he seemed better than a bunch of guys who actually performed better?
(not that this year’s race is like that, but that’s the inevitable outcome of basing Cy voting on such metrics as ERA)
Don't say hi to me.
Results matter
When giving awards, I think it’s more important to consider actual results.
Albert Pujols is ridiculous.
I'm okay with using Rally's WAR for the Cy Young
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
I think that makes sense to a degree, but down that road lies the dreaded pitcher W-L
I’m fine with factoring in ERA which is a good metric of pitching results, but I think actual pitching performance should be regarded as more important.
Don't say hi to me.
I can see the reason wins can be misleading
but how about complete game wins?
You fit into me
like a hook into an eye
a fish hook
an open eye
I don't think that happens very often
but i see your point. usually if a pitcher completes a game he did a lot of things right.
You fit into me
like a hook into an eye
a fish hook
an open eye
yeah, but I don't necessarily think CG wins is more valuable than CG in total
and maybe IP/GS is better than either
Don't say hi to me.
ERA is a team result, FIP is a pitcher result. When evaluating individual pitching performance, the latter is proven to be superior. Since the Cy Young award is ostensibly awarded for pitching performance, FIP/WAR makes more sense than ERA/IP.
No, of course not.
But should it be based on the pitcher who, by the metrics pitched the best, but got unlucky because all of his line drives happened to be in gaps and with runners on? That’s the inevitable outcome of basing Cy voting too heavily (and to an absurd degree, admittedly) on such metrics as FIP.
I said there shouldn’t be OVER-reliance, not that FIP / xFIP/ tRA shouldn’t be used at all. Last year Lincecum was a very defensible CYA winner, as would Wainwright have been, with Carp being a bit less so thanks to the lesser # of IP and GS.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Aug 12, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Brofist :)
I do think there’s a slippery slope there with endorsing xFIP over FIP for the same reasons, though: lucky/unlucky HRs (also park-affected).
Heimdall!
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree.
Pitching is not hitting. I know “Wins” is a shit stat. But giving up a line drive in the gap with runners on when you are up by 5, is different than when you are up by 2. Getting a deep fly out is different than a double in the gap. It just is. Pitchers should know their parks and know where the cheap home runs are. Baseball is still actually played and there are still actual results. And it’s okay if rewards are based on actual results.
...
I don’t have time to unload my rant about the first bit of your argument. But I will say that I think the award should be for the pitcher who performed the best, not for a pitcher whose combination of luck, performance, defense, etc. happened to make him seem like the best.
Don't say hi to me.
Yes, agreed.
What we’re disagreeing is the best way to arrive at that decision.
Okay. I don't think we're actually really far off.
You just value ERA more than I do. I understand your reasons for doing so, but I don’t feel comfortable using a metric that’s so dependent on non-pitcher-controlled factors.
Don't say hi to me.
forgive me for my ignorance, but how is pitching to your defense (something the cardinals preach) a "non-pitcher-controlled factor"
i’m not trying to argue, i am actually curious about this and have never heard a good answer. is it not true that by relying heavily on FIP and xFIP, we are inevitably punishing a pitcher who follows a pitch-to-contact organizational theory?
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
A contact pitcher can still put up excellent (x)FIP numbers, they just have tighter K/BB margins as the practical ceiling on K/9 is a lot higher than the floor on BB/9.
Example: Joel Pineiro, post-groundball. He had a 3.68 xFIP and 3.27 FIP in 2009, despite well below-average strikeout rates (4.42 K/9 against a league average 6.99). He had a miniscule walk rate, though. And contact pitchers should be both walking and striking out fewer batters, because they’re trying to make them (safely) hit the ball.
thanks.
so basically, this means that a pitcher who Ks people is sort of “allowed” to have a higher walk rate than a pitcher who pitches to contact? and that makes sense, under the idea that a strikeout pitcher is trying to gets swings and misses, and a groundball pitcher is trying to get swings and contact.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
Yes. In the end, K/BB ratios are more important than K% or BB%. I think people with lower rates of both are walking more of a tightrope, though, because a human being can only walk so few batters. Kinda-sorta like how shorting a stock has a capped upside an unlimited downside, while buying a stock is the reverse.
"a human being can only walk so few batters."
Except for Cliff Lee. Seriously, think of a number of batters. Have you thought of one? OK, Cliff Lee can walk fewer than that many batters. It’s insane.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Nice try, chalk
He walked NEGATIVE TWO batters, just now!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
On that subject
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/why-mlb-teams-arent-big-dan-haren-fans/
Interesting article at FG which raised the idea of Haren HARMING himself (or at least his perception) by not walking enough.
Instinctively
If I were pitching, I wouldn’t want to walk anyone – ever. So I agree with that reaction. Even when I play video games, I love frontal assaults and hate sniping. Ditto communication, practically everything in life. But, discretion is the better part of valor and all of that. It’s not hard for me to imagine situations where not walking a guy would give you better numbers, while simultaneously making it harder for your team to win (e.g. Bonds and the Giants). That doesn’t drive me toward “walks are for team players,” and I hate issuing IBBs in general as much as the next guy, but I can at least understand the described league perception.
Interesting...
I mean, I could see how people might have a weird perception of him. They could be thinking “most of this guy’s numbers look good, but that’s a lot of homers to give up.” And of course, since he allows fewer baserunners by not walking people, he is still effective.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Pitching to contact is in the pitcher's control.
The pitcher cannot control the talent of his defense, however, so a defense that includes people like Derek Jeter instead of Adam Everett will make the pitcher’s ERA worse. Defensive personnel does not factor in the calculation of ERA.
"What exactly is that thing? A pessimism meter?" - Bruce McCurdy
Gah, defensive personnel does not factor in the calculation of FIP.
"What exactly is that thing? A pessimism meter?" - Bruce McCurdy
Pitching to contact isn't terrible
of course, the negatives are that balls in play sometimes fall for hits, and pitchers (probably) can’t really control the type of BIP (even the most extreme sinkerballers will still induce < 2/3 groundballs) and errors happen. I won’t really get into pitch classifications due to their inaccuracy… A strikeout, as a true outcome, is superior and doesn’t really correlate with lots of pitches thrown/few IP.
As a contact pitcher, it’s imperative to limit walks, so the only way to do well in terms of FIP/xFIP, etc., is keep a very good K/BB – so without striking out a lot of guys, you have to not give out any free passes.
Don't say hi to me.
Pitchers are not shown to have the ability to control the number of HRs allowed per FB, so I don’t think they’ll be directing batters away from a short porch or that sort of thing (even if you’re talking an inside or outside pounding, you’re tipping off your pitch location which rates to result in a well-hit baseball).
Like chalk says, I don’t think we’re that philosophically disaligned. I even think we agree that ERA does a good job of measuring what it does, we just differ on the degree to which it should be credited to the pitcher.
But we don't know for sure who was more lucky
We are using stats to make reasonable guesses at who was more lucky. We have reasonable assumptions we can make. But the results are the results, too. Sometimes we mistake FIP’s ability to predict results, and use it as actual performance.
Agreed.
But that doesn’t make it perfect. And it doesn’t mean you can’t use both stats to evaluate a player’s performance.
Fangraphs publishes tERA, which is tRA on an ERA scale:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/tra-changed-to-tera/
OK, I think I am starting to understand it
It has to do with using run expectancy of a more varied group of outcomes? So tRA takes things like linedrives and grounders into account as well?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
FIP looks at how many runs a pitcher would give up if you look at his strikeouts, walks and homers and assume league average performance on balls in play
tRA looks at how many runs a pitcher gives up if you look at his strikeouts, walks, homers and assume league average performance on each individual batted ball type.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 12, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
That's a nice succinct way to put it
Of course, it has to treat all linedrives as being equal to each other, and all flyballs, etc. Only something like hit fx could improve on that.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
also, it's untrustworthy because of the lack of year-to-year similarity on pitchers' batted ball types
and on classifying batted ball types in general
Don't say hi to me.
Yes of course
Just like FIP has the same problem with assuming all BIP are equal, tRA assumes all batted ball types are equal, when they probably aren’t.
But then you are really starting to get into the nitpicky stuff. tRA is a pretty damn good stat – if you trust the batted ball classificaitons.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 12, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I have no reason not to other than "in theory" type arguments
This thread has been a really nice refresher on the pitching stats
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I think his strategy changes based on the situation
He gets groundballs with nobody on, but when he gets in a jam, he goes for the strikeout. I have absolutely no data to back this up, but it’s a hypothesis as to why he outperforms his FIP.
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Aug 12, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
He said as much directly in an interview yesterday: his plan was to pitch to contact and go for Ks when he thought it necessary because he didn’t want to run up pitch counts and tire out in the heat. But, it will be a long time before we can conclude whether or not he’s able to consistently outperform his (x)FIP and the degree to which defense might have been a factor. So far, there’s one (1) guy (Glavine) that gets commonly talked about as having such a skill – and we don’t have the defense and park info for back then that we have today.
Okay, why the one (1)? Seriously, just use one (1) of the two (2) representations of one (1).
Don't say hi to me.
No, I'm pretty sure it was 1 + 2 + 1 + 1, not 1 + 1 + 2 + 1
Point is, there are no bullets left in this gun.
BLAM!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
1 + 2 + 2 + 1
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
The strikeouts were a red herring.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
The best objective reference I could quickly find is http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060719082151AAkfEeo . I work in software/IT, and it’s also common there to (over)specify in the same way, as a matter of habit.
He is the only one that I can find
with a really significant difference career wise. Do you have any other examples?
Most, like Maddux, outperform spectacularly for 3-5 seasons and then regress back towards them being closer to equal.
FWIW, Glavine was also known in baseball circles as being a very good pitcher from the stretch and he had a good pickoff move that kept runners from picking up stolen bases from him. Obviously that’s very subjective, but I wonder if it doesn’t have some merit to it.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Nothing offhand
I only know about Glavine because it’s his name that usually comes up as the “but” in FIP/ERA discussions. I don’t know of any sites that have career FIP-ERA sorts. But I think there’s consensus that FIP & ERA will be tightly linked over a decent sample size for practically every pitcher. Practically :)
Do you think that it has anything to do with
those Atlanta teams being above average defensive teams for his entire career?
I wonder if the reason he and Maddux performed so well in the 90’s happened to be because those Braves teams were always so good defensively.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
He also played on great fielding teams, so he's probably not that much of an outlier
by vivaelpujols on Aug 12, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you have range factors for those Atlanta teams?
Were they that much better defensively than a lot of the other teams at the time?
They were always given credit for being a top 3 team in terms of defense, but do the hard numbers really spell this out?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Well according to Glavine's B-R page
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/glavito02.shtml#pitching_value
His “rdef”, which is how many runs his defense saved him over the course of his career using total zone, is +80 (meaning his defense saved him 80 runs). That would make up about half of the gap between his ERA and FIP.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 12, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
reason why Garcia's life is better than mine
1.) 126 MLB innings pitched.
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
Waino’s FIPs are available at Fangraphs.
Defense, parks, and – as usual – sample sizes are factors in ERA, in addition to just pitching.
There are some people, like Tom Glavine, that have long careers with notable FIP-ERAs.
At this point, I think it’s too early to tell on Wainwright, and we’ve got Molina/Pujols/Ryan and a pitcher’s park backing up his sturdy groundballing. But whether or not he is a consistent FIP outperformer, I think we can all agree that he’s an excellent pitcher either way.
or it sugges that FIP isn't the end all be all stat that some think it is
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME
I don't mind
Keith Law, personally. He has good info most of the time. He has his opinion. I think he tries to be fair. Thinks for himself.
I actually have no problem with Keith Law
I just like to pile on with silly comments, usually perpetuating long-overdone memes.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Wainwright's strikeout% (K/BF) this year is 23.1%
Which ranks him among the highest in baseball (comparing favorably to guys like Felix Hernandez and Tim LIncecum). So the idea that Wainwright is not striking out a lot of guys is ridiculous – he’s been doing a ton of that this year.
Furthermore, the reason Halladay has been better this year (this obviously depends on how you define better) is that of the plate appearance outcomes that are most in his control (strikeouts, walks and ground balls), he has performed better than Wainwright. Wainwright has performed much better than Halladay in a plate appearance outcome that is mostly out of his control – BABIP. I don’t really want to get into another BABIP argument, but it’s been sufficiently proven that pitchers don’t have a lot control over their BABIP.
Now you could argue that Wainwright’s been more valuable, and I’d agree with you. But to say he’s been better than Halladay?… I don’t really buy it. Why should Wainwright be given full credit for a .258 BABIP if we can say with reasonable certainty that a lot of that is luck?
by vivaelpujols on Aug 12, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with everything said here
But isn’t it entirely possible that the reason his BABIP is so low is because he’s inducing below average contact from a majority of hitters?
For instance, he’s giving up a lot fewer line drives than he did last year, and his HR/FB is lower (while his FB% is about the same). Couldn’t we at least theorize that he has been very good at inducing weak contract? Hitters are having difficulty squaring the ball up against him, thus, they have fewer line drives and home runs than they did a year ago, when we was very good but not great.
Obviously this is hard to prove, but I do think that you can make that assertion and back it up with batted ball data.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Yeah, it's possible
it’s a reason, but I don’t think it’s the reason… LD% and such things aren’t very reliable because they fluctuate wildly year-to-year… and that low of a BABIP is unsustainable – not even Nolan Ryan could keep it that low over his career, so I can’t throw out the “he’s getting lucky” explanation just yet.
Don't say hi to me.
I'm not saying it's sustainable at .258
But just because it’s not sustainable doesn’t mean it’s luck. It means that he’s maybe taken it to another level for a short period of time in terms of control and fooling hitters. I certainly believe that it’s possible to do this.
I’m trying to define what PORTION of it is sustainable, because I do believe that some of it has to be related to inducing weaker contact, even if some of it is luck.
For example, could we derive an algorithm based on batted ball data that would determine this what portion of BABIP is “luck independent”? I believe tRA tries to do this by pegging all those values to league average, but what if a pitcher consistently has a below average HR/FB% or LD% for 600+ innings over 3 seasons? Wouldn’t that be an indication that he’s got some type of skill for keeping hitters from squaring the ball up?
Let’s just assume that Wainwright’s “true talent” BABIP is .275. If he regresses to that number, what does that do to his ERA, FIP, and tRA rate stats?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I think you could say that Wainwright's been inducing weaker contact
But I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that’s it’s not to the degree so that it would cause him to have a .258 BABIP. I think most of that is luck.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 12, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
How much though?
As I wrote above — is there a way to put an algorithm together to determine what his “real rate” of BABIP should be based on batted ball data from each season or multiple seasons?
For the Cy Young award, couldn’t you do this for just that season’s data, since we’re awarding the “best performance” without looking at trying to predict his future numbers?
I believe that it’s possible for pitchers to be better from year to year or have “career years”.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
The reason Roy Halladay's season being cast as a disappointment is...
because before the season the bone heads at FESPN decided he should win 30 games playing for the Phillies in the NL.
Miles, in at third for his defense
I thought he would win 30 games for the Phillies in the NL
and then their offense performed a disappearing act
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
Give it 5 years
If la russa keeps coaching and Mac remains the hitting coach throughout the rest of la russa’s tenure I think the cardinals will drag that big ass statue out of storage and put his number on the wall, hall of fame be damned.
by lopey986 on Aug 12, 2010 8:56 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I am not going to tire of banging my shoe on the table in defiance about Jim Edmonds any time soon
He belongs in the Hall of Fame. That’s preaching to the crowd around these parts, of course, but I feel like it’s something that needs to be said. Beyond the fear that the powers that be might not allow him in (in their infinite wisdom) I don’t feel like it’s universally accepted or anything around the interwebs that he deserves to get in. Jim Edmonds really was that good. He wasn’t Ken Griffey Jr. good (about as sure a thing as there is from this era of retiring or soon-to-be-retiring players to make it into the hall) but he wasn’t that far off, in terms of what he was actually able to accomplish on the field. I think that’s pretty amazing.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I would contend that he WAS Ken Griffey Jr. good at his peak, he just started late.
at his peak, just that his peak came later and has some steroid tint to it. In terms of OPS+ for their peak seasons, Jimmy’s was 153 from 2000-2005, Griffey’s was 155 from 1993-1999, which is just one year longer. Griffey gets the benefit of the doubt due to having his 30’s decimated by injuries, Jimmy gets no such credit for getting a late start at the age of 24.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I didn't realize how close their offensive peaks were (adjusted for era, of course)
Griffey’s peak seems to have better slugging but worse on base skill. Edmonds has four seasons with OBP over .400, Griffey only two. Whereas Griffey has five seasons with slugging > .600, Jimmy two. And other somewhat arbitrary comparisons as well.
Anyway, Jimmy is awesome!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Griffey had back to back 56 homer seasons
and probably would have made a run at Maris in ‘94 were it not for the strike — he was at 40 homers with 51 games remaining. I’ve done an analysis of this before, but I fully believe he would have hit 63-65 homers that year for three reasons:
- The Mariners had only played 44 home games to that point in the season, so 37 of their final 51 games would have been in the Kingdome with it’s pennant porch in RF.
- In his career through June of ‘94, Junior was hitting a homer once every 12 AB’s in the Kingdome and 1 every 9 in 1994.
- That puts him at roughly 63 for the season had it been played to the end.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Crazy
Both Griffey and Thomas were crazy-good for the first phase of their careers, and once they got past thirty they were pretty much hampered by injuries the rest of the way and never got back to that kind of awesomeness again.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Logan's Run?
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Did I inadvertently qoute Logan's Run?
I’m familiar with the premise, but I’ve never seen the movie.
just the premise
I don’t remember a whit of Logan’s Run
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Yup.
On one hand, a lot of people argue that players of Pujols’ ability tend to age well. Then you can point to guys like Griffey and Thomas and really start scaring people. Come up with some stuff about how “you push the body that hard for long enough and you’re bound to fall off a cliff” and people will start going hysterical.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
wasn't griffey known for not taking care of himself very well?
in terms of offseason conditioning, etc.
youneverknow
by floodOfLove on Aug 12, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
heard one of those old-timers saying they swore it was that astroturf that killed his career.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
many have said. . .
that the young Griff, Jr. didn’t pay enough attention to conditioning, which contributed to his decline / injuries.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Aug 12, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I have heard that too
And I have also heard that Pujols takes really good care of himself. I have no idea about Frank Thomas.
I wasn’t arguing logically, just based on emotional reaction to information like that. The kind of “Oh Noes, Pujols is gonna get teh old and injurd!” reaction that we all get from time to time.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Judging by his body
I’d say he did the “wrong” conditioning and training, which led to all the hamstring injuries. The man is all quadriceps and glutes — you can see why he had so many hamstring problems. Too much muscle imbalance.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
"Look at the butt on that one!"
“Yeah… he must work out.”
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I too wish the Cards were not playing the Cubs
tomorrow night……….bad timing………so soon after a completely satisfying week. The thought of losing to Mr. Diamond galls me, and a win just won’t feel as good as it normally would. This illustrates the danger of getting “too high” over an early August series.
yup, and we should all remember one of Whitey's sayings
paraphrasing here: “often, it’s not who plays the best in the big series, it’s who plays the best after the big series.” Probably wasn’t original with Whitey but I remember him saying it (and it being true) numerous times. So, as much as we all enjoyed the Cincy series, let’s keep the intensity up.
The day we traded Drew and Morrero was one of the best days over the last 10 years.
I have always loved Waino… He was my favorite part of that trade… Scouts didn’t quite see his entire potential take this quote from the day of the trade.
A National League scout’s reaction to the trade:
“(Adam) Wainwright has a chance to be a No. 2 or 3 starter.
From the start I had a feeling he was an ace.
This may one day be looked upon as something similar to the Lou Brock trade. I know it is too early to tell but Waino could be in the hall someday.
"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean
I agree, shade
One of the reasons I liked Waino was I saw him pitch in the minors for the Braves AA club against the Cards AA club when the Cards farm team was in the Knoxville area. I was driving through and planned it to stop to see the game, not because Waino was pitching, but because his opponent was Rick Ankiel who was at that time trying to come back as a pitcher for the Cards. The Cards then traded for Waino (during that offseason??). Talk about an interesting minor-league game to see in retrospect.
This thread could be renamed the 6 degrees of Ankiel.
"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean
Edmonds is basically tied for 7th with Snider as best...
CFer ever. The reason he won’t get in is that 1) he played during the steroid era, which makes people skeptical even if Edmonds himself hasn’t been implicated, 2) he didn’t play in LA, NY, or BOS where local appreciation is easily transferred to national appreciation, and 3) a kind of racism: Edmonds was a stocky, lumbering, white guy. Because of this he never really got the credit he deserved for being a fantastic centerfielder, and in fact when he did make a good play people accused him of being theatrical. Of course this is because white America is pre-programmed to believe that only blacks and latinos can be fast and graceful – not guys that look like Jim Edmonds.
Fire La Russa!
Jimmy Ballgame....
Why oh why does everyone hate you so?
Just because you are metro and frost your tips?
Or because they are scared of you sick upper cut swing?
Could it be your insane gold glove defense?
Nope its gotta be cuz your’re Jim F’n Edmonds and you can get any woman in here.
"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean
by shadetree on Aug 12, 2010 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
only a guy as cool as Jimmy can pull it off.
I suspect if Jim were a surgeon he would be like “the Todd” from scrubs….
"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean
I tried the belly shirt once....
…and ended up 4 weeks in the hospital, 4 weeks in jail, 4 weeks in rehab, and 4 weeks on probation.
:=8/
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
you're not supposed to wear it
when someone else already is….learned that one the hard way :(
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
I plan on cutting my jersey into a belly shirt
for my championship softball game on monday. in honor of Jim Edmonds, of course
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
You've gotta up the ante and pierce your belly-button.
by Ghostrider520 on Aug 12, 2010 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
would never work
I’ve got some wierd scarring from when they put a camera in my belly button to take my appendix out
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
SC featured all our Grand Slams in GAB
it’s a glorious bunch of clips
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
The Ninja's defense.
How great was it that Gomes made one of the worst attempts at catching a foul ball with Colby at the plate, and then, a handful of pitches later, Colby sends a laser over the center field wall? I really, really enjoyed that. As did the dugout. The Man Stew is a-brewin’…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
This is fact
“his miraculous running, leaping, diving grab against the Astros in Game 7 of the 2004 NLCS goes down as one of the greatest plays in modern baseball history.”
Obligatory
Fun fact: the picture is a link. Click it to see the first place I found that photo on Google Images.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
.....
I took over 100 pictures from the two Royal games I went to.
About 50 of them were of Ankiel. What can I say. Im not gay. But if I was… No that wouldn’t work.
But Ankiel is my favorite cardinal playing right now. Im not to worried about the drop in average. In fact, if we go back to our player predictions most people had Ankiel around .250 I believe.
by Evilfrog on Jun 20, 2008 7:08 AM PDT reply actions
No comment.
Miles, in at third for his defense
Also of note...
Chitown’s comments with the Jay avatar. Makes no sense in the 2008 context.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
I don't understand SBN in this instance
If you change your avatar, all your previous comments change to that avatar as well. If you change your sig, your previous comments still have whatever sig you had at that time. Strange. I guess storing more pics than necessary would probably kill the servers.
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Aug 12, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I suppose that's it.
I was surprised for the same reason involving the sigs.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
Could be to account for explicit photo content: one could temp-change their pic for sensationalism, and have it show up that way everywhere. Imagine if people started doing drive-bys in other blogs, for example, just to screw with them via imagery.
Are you suggesting that
someone may have perused the D-Backs blog with an eel avatar?
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I miss the eel.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
the sig just kind of auto-adds into your comment, so it's part of your comment.
the avatar comes from the server
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah that makes sense
Y2S is all over SBN. Do you work for them?
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Aug 12, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
i hope not
nah, there are other boards that do the same thing.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
the catch
I have the front page of the post dispatch from the day after the 2004 NLCS hanging on my office wall. It has Jimmy in mid-dive making that catch. Looking at it always makes me feel good.
yeah....ahhh memories. The best day of my life.
Now if I had gone to the final game of the 2006 ws with my dad instead of moving to FL to for a job that would’ve been the best day of my life.
Aww! I was at that game...
Good memories…
"I don't like to sound egotistical, but every time I stepped up to the plate with a bat in my hands, I couldn't help but feel sorry for the pitcher." Rogers hornsby.
this post is Jim Edmonds Approved.
"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean
Who is the other dude in that picture?
I think it kind of looks like Grudz, kind of looks like Anthony Reyes.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
LaRue parties hard!
"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean
It would have to be a really recent picture of LaRue though
Since he only had the LaRue Manchu look as a Cardinals until this year.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
...and the home runs
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
pwnd
that’s his girl and jimmy is letting us know there are three of them
by martimeryard on Aug 12, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm almost 100% positive that's Grudz.
Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.
- John Wayne
might be.... is def. before 2007
"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean
looks like a side shot of Rolen to me.
You fit into me
like a hook into an eye
a fish hook
an open eye
Father-In-Laws...
Can’t live with ‘em – Can’t punch ’em in the face
"He plays like he's on a mini-trampoline or wearing helium kangaroo shorts." - Andy Van Slyke on Ozzie Smith
by ArachNerd on Aug 12, 2010 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
links
http://blog.nj.com/mets/2010/08/k-rod_allegedly_involved_in_vi.html
http://ballhype.com/story/k-rod-arrested-assaulted-father-in-law-cops/
"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean
maybe this still belongs in the victory thread but...
“The Cardinals have good pitching; that’s one thing they do have,” Phillips said, presumably before the Reds were able to put more duct tape on his mouth.
Miles, in at third for his defense
Great quote from Bernie:
This was as sharp as the Cardinals had played all season. And the timing was perfect. What a swing series. In the worst-case scenario, the Cardinals could have lost all three games and plunged to five games out in the standings. Instead, they leave town in first place, one up on Team BP.
I totally agree. That’s how this team is capable of playing every series, and rose to the occasion in a huge series by getting the sweep.
I was also happy not to see Aaron Miles or Randy Winn for pretty much the entire series.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I think BP's comments had a lot to do with firing up this team
and inspiring it to play up to its potential, but I think Carp’s increasingly pissed off attitude has a lot to do with it too. This team was drifting most of the season We’ve seen them as the happy-go-luck team. We’ve seen them as the mopey sad bastard team. But finally Carpenter just decided to get pissed off about losing. And not an unfocused, angry at the world pissed off, but an “I’m sick of losing and I’m not gonna fucking take it anymore” kind of pissed off. Carp has what it takes to keep this team jacked up for the rest of the season, imo, and if we make it to playoffs I think it will be due to his leadership.
/mad Carp love
by mattyp on Aug 12, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Gibson said
“You’ve got to have an attitude if your going to go far in this game.”
That’s why I love Mr Carpenter.
"You've got to have an attitude if your going to go far in this game." -- Bob Gibson
funny the only time you did see Miles....
Tony was ejected.
"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean
i was afraid of this
phillips just gives more stuff for us to write about but the cardinals imo were going to whip them anyway…comments or not. garcia could care less about phillips he was focused on his day to pitch, holliday was locked in, and colby came away with a great hit….we set up our rotation and destroyed them and we “got a good taste in our mouth”
the main factor was that it was a huge series…thats why our intensity rose…not phillips. that was minutia, an isolated incident, an easy red herring. Now, when it came to fans and tv ratings and analysts… it was like the actual BP spill
When it came to actual baseball we played like cardinals…imo phillips really only affected cueto and molinas AB
good for bernie that he could take advantage of the drama and get his word count up
i think we finally just got over a hump and actually hit for once and collected ourselves well after FL
that all said eat shit brandon and ask for a trade to the cubs if u love em so much
by guillermozeliak on Aug 12, 2010 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I like it.
Colby Rasmus. Kid dynamite
"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean
mike tyson couldn't be reached for comment
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
Also, they have two 5+ WAR hitters, the CF with the most upside in the game,
and THE DIVISION LEAD, Mr. Phillips.
Carlos Gonzalez would like a word with you....
:)
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
Low walk rate, high BABIP, older than Colby
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Hmmm
A. 366 BABIP, while it may be higher than average, does not mean he is very lucky. He’s also one year older? Are you seriously saying that 1 year makes that big of a difference? He’s also faster, and a better defender than Colby. Also already has a.396 wOBA this year with 25 HR’s.
Yeah, give me Carlos.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
without addressing your main point
i think it’s amusing that you said a .366 babip “may be” above average.
Don't say hi to me.
Depends on the hitter.
Some hitters just naturally have a higher BABIP through their carrers, too early to tell with CarGo though.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
naturally higher
like .330
not .366
and he hasn’t shown the kind of plate discipline to be able to sustain an above average BABIP. stop trading collby
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
I love Colby,
just saying, I like CarGo more.
But, CarGo’s BABIP numbers have consistently been in the .330-.340 range. He is getting lucky, but not by much off of his career numbers in the minors.
And CarGo’s BB% is at a career low. His lack of walks can only be attributed to his stats in the majors, as his walking percentages in the minors are acceptable. Just because the skills haven’t translated yet doesn’t mean they never will.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
Looks like he had a ~7.5 BB% in the minors. I don’t know about how well that translates to the majors, but even taking it as a constant I’d still file that in the sub-optimal category for a premiere hitter.
It's not great, but not horrible.
You have to also consider his worst year at the plate discipline wise was most likely his rookie year.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
BABIP's over .360 with 400+ AB's since 2008:
Ichiro is the only guy who appears on any of those three lists multiple times.
If you drop it to .350, it’s Ichiro, Holliday, Hanley, and David Wright doing it multiple times.
Only one of those guys has a walk rate lower than Gonzalez, and that’s Ichiro.
Would you trade Colby Rasmus for B.J. Upton based on Upton’s 2007? If you would, I have some waterfront land in Florida to sell you.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
um... no it isn't. The only person who's ever topped .366 in a career of over 3000 PAs is Ty Cobb.
Even Ichiro isn’t that high – see here.
Especially given his unspectacular minor league babips, and the fact that MLB babips are typically lower than those in the minors, I think it’s pretty much certain that he’s not a true talent .366 babip hitter.
Don't say hi to me.
There are some big BABIP/AVG differentials though: Jeter, for example, has a career .357 BABIP against a .315 AVG. Still, I think the odds of C-Gon staying anywhere close to .366 with the plate discipline he’s shown are about nil. Like the others, his walk rate (7.5% in the minors) would concern me. Looks like a fine young player with a lot of upside, though.
Those were babips, not averages, that I was mentioning. The .366 figure, etc.
Just to clarify.
And without looking at any more stats, since I’m all statted out for today, I think he’s the kind of guy who swings at a lot of bad pitches, which is worrying for me in terms of potential.
Don't say hi to me.
I’m with ya. When you look at Cobb’s .378 BABIP you can say, “well he’s also got a .366 AVG!” With Jeter, he’s put up noticeably high BABIP numbers WITHOUT a correspondingly high AVG. Actually, he has the exact same BABIP as Ichiro but is .16 lower on AVG. Just saying, hey, there are always freaks out there (but I still don’t think C-Gon rates to be one).
Again, I admit he is getting lucky according to the statistics
but his BABIP is already naturally inflated to begin with, as his minor league record indicates. He is getting lucky, by not by such a wide margin as many people are saying.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
It's still a really wide margin, though, period.
It’s not like he should be hitting for a .300 wOBA, but I wouldn’t expect anything higher than about a .330 babip at best, or conservatively .320.
Don't say hi to me.
That's fine. It's definitely defensible that you think Gonzalez has more upside
I just never trust anybody with a 4.5% BB%
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Exactly. He's ESPECIALLY the type of player whose value fluctuates with BABIP
Because his OBP is entirely dependent on how many hits he has
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Also, .366 is a higher BABIP than he has ever had even in the minors,
where he averaged in the 320-330 range. Considering BABIP always goes down when a player hits the majors, he looks like Jon Jay with more power and less patience. Last time I checked we were ready to revolt when Jay was stealing ABs from Rasmus.
"What exactly is that thing? A pessimism meter?" - Bruce McCurdy
A .366 BABIP would be like the best in the modern era
Higher than Ichiro. I think it’s safe to say he’s been getting quite lucky.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 12, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
The BP Spill: Day 4
I don’t actually know if it’s day 4, but whatever. There should be an official VEB clock counting off the days of the BP Spill.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
we need to make sure we cap the well in september
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
also sbn'd... we may need another thread
incidences increasing.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
We're not even over 1000 yet.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
really? huh
sbn is just being sbn, I guess.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
agree about the cub series
but what we saw in cincy was how they have played with less intensity and focus since april
hopefully they will stay focused
near first place, over .500 = bs
underperforming is what they were doing
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
our fan confidence poll looks like a shirt charlie brown would wear
"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5
"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.
by Tudor's Electric Fan on Aug 12, 2010 11:21 AM EDT reply actions 7 recs
in order to understand this
i had to ask who charlie brown was
if he wore a shirt
and what kind it was
way to make me work
rec
..i miss ludriguez-wick..
You don't know who Charlie Brown is?!
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Why didn't you just type
Charlie Brown into Google?
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
He's apparently keeping you locked in a closet.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
ask him about the Red Baron.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Snoopy, that is.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
(Snoopy sells insurance now.)
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
ahaha
i meant i already asked
i got it
so i rec’d
i’ve yet to be locked in a closet
..i miss ludriguez-wick..
bring a mobile device
so if you are, you can still post to VEB
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This has happened to you, I assume.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
Snoopy is not the Red Baron
for eff’s sake, Y2S!
I also want to address this... Hi there... What's your name? My name's Heisenberg. You like Colby HRs, I like Colby HRs. We have that in common. I'm a Gemini. Maybe we should hook up sometime. Looks like you need a towel, here have mine. *SCREAM* Oh sorry, I should have gave you a clean one.
I never had any verbs in there
not any real verbs, anyway.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
no, he did shoot him down though.
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
Not gonna lie
First two things I thought of when you said this: frozen pizza, and the VEB red baron.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
do they even show those anymore? I think I saw a "retro style" Red Baron commercial, but it aired for a week
and I never saw it again.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Well, they still make the pizza
But I haven’t seen a commercial in a long time either. Same with the “what do you want on your Tombstone™” ads.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
oh yeah, I loved those.
now they’re just trying to convince people that frozen doesn’t suck.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Baron von Richthofen
"You've got to have an attitude if your going to go far in this game." -- Bob Gibson
Or watch this short, informational film:
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
And the original by the Royal Guardsmen:
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
not that one...
stupid Christmas one
this one.
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
better pic.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
this is how I picture d-dee
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Same for me, 'cept there are teeny tiny knives where Charlie Brown is going to land.
Not an apologist.
by spants on Aug 12, 2010 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I picture you like this
I was looking for the washing the blanket strip, but couldn’t find it. this works.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
gotta admit this is pretty funny
"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean
the second video.... The third one sucks
"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean
They got the Benny Hill music,
but left out Suppan crawling out between everyone’s legs. It had so much potential.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
the Reds announcers appear to be delusional
In the third version, the Reds announcers are giving commentary on a fistfight that never happened:
Clueless #1:“…some punches being thrown.”
Clueless #2: "That was Rolen and Carpenter and they are going at it . "
Clueless #1:“They really are. Chris Carpenter and Scott Rolen were the two combatants.”
Clueless #2: "And down they go. "
like I said down thar... watch the video. there are stories going on even as it happens.
don’t believe the word on the street, man.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
worthy of
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Keep on hatin', Brandon Phillips. You woke the sleeping giant!
Fire Tony LaRussa
by zoomzoomj88 on Aug 12, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Yadi is a duck
awww.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I love these comments.
“In the time it took for that scuffle to conclude, LaRussa had killed a 12-pack and moved the pitcher to the cleanup spot.”
they're not very choreographed. that one guy's doing all the work, and his buddies aren't moving the bobbles fast enough
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
at least they got that part right.
"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean
With a few days to cool heads
I have been thinking about a few things. Do you think it is possible that LaRue doesn’t really have a concussion but Moz is simply posturing by calling up Steven Hill to get Cueto suspended? It makes a stronger case to suspend Cueto longer. Because if LaRue can’t play due to his concussion the guy that gave it to him shouldn’t be playing also
possible
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
I think the video
Proves everything you need to know. I also think the LaRue’s stitches are all the evidence you need. What I find humorous was the quote by Gomes that said “Well if you suspend Cueto you have to suspend the guys that pinned him.” Um, did he not take a look at the video, it was Reds players pinning Cueto.
Not to mention, that if you watch the video you see two things:
Adam Wainwright takes Jaime aside so he doesn’t get involved.
Cueto sneaks in around the back to start a fight and ends up on the short end of the stick.
I think it’s clear that Cueto wanted to be in this fight and when he gets suspended, he’ll get what he deserves.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Aug 12, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, guys, we're as good as apologists if we don't check the video.
there are necessarily going to be a lot of stories flying around about this, but there is a preponderance of video and photo evidence to pore through. VEB also did a great job liveblogging their observations.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m sure it’s possible that there’s some exaggeration. That can only go so far in terms of actual medical evidence, though, and I wouldn’t peg LaRue as one who would like to play a victim.
I don't think LaRue has made one comment about all of this
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 12, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
LaRue is going to downplay whatever injuries he has
he has done so before, and quite elaborately, even after we see what hit him. I don’t think I’d make any assessments based on what he self-reports.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Lol
Other than “Unfortunately the kid doesn’t have a brain.”
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Aug 12, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
he doesn't believe in pain, remember.
and he sat out there for a while even while Carp fussed over his concussion symptoms
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
no
I saw the actual hit.
that was whiplash plus being crushed in a stampede. no one’s skull, with no pads, no helmet, will stop the brain from crashing into it at that speed.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
i would love a screen cap of the hit to the face
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 12, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
you have to watch it
it’s too fast, it would be a blur.
but literally, his head is on one spot of the screen, and in the next frame his head is in another spot and another position. it was fast and violent.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
you know how he was leaning forward because the crowd was pushing everyone forward?
his head goes in the opposite direction
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
and his hands were sure not free, and there was no way to brace or duck.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
the footage is from an unfortunate angle
but i did a gif at 60% speed of all the kicking larue took
..i miss ludriguez-wick..
That kind of gamesmanship wouldn't surprise me, but he took a pretty good knock.
I like this from the interview-
Cat “How are you right now…”
LaRue “…can’t hurt steel, you can scratch it”
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
That's what he said?
Man, I couldn’t for the life of me understand it at first.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Aug 12, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
But would this move actually hurt the Reds?
A brick wall… I mean Dusty Baker is their manager and giving one of his pitcher’s some extra rest would probably help.
by Cardfanintherock on Aug 12, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Steven Hill is one sharp dressed minor leaguer.
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 12:06 PM EDT reply actions
In a case like his,
A veteran (I’m thinking Yadi or Larue,) will most likely be mentoring him. Usually they hook them up with a nice suit as part of showing him the ropes. (At least that’s how it worked in Seattle.)
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
his beard was pointed out.
and since he’ll be doing a lot of bullpen catching…
I think he’s on his way to Cardinals-Amish.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Y'know, I sat through the whole draft, and I don't remember Justin Wright.
apparently he’s signed.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Is he an outfielder?
Because that would be a fun name if he was.
by swmofan on Aug 12, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I...... don't know. I closed the tab.
who?
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
47th round, a lefty out of Va. Tech.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Aug 13, 2010 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions
FINES ARE IN, FINES ARE IN
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Cueto suspended for 7
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
MLB's twitter
Discipline issued to #stlcards & #reds for Tuesday melee. Cueto 7 games + fine. Both MGRs 2 games + fines. 4 players fined. http://MLB.com 4 minutes ago via web
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Sounds perfect
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
...
http://ktrs.com/talk/sportsnight/?p=196
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
What the hell did Springer do?
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I didn't even *see* Springer.
I … think I still remember what Springer looks like…
unless they mean …. JERRY IS THAT YOU?
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I wonder if it's because he was on the DL?
They added this blurb:
pitcher Russ Springer, currently a disabled list player who came onto the field during the incident
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
He's on the DL for a bad hip, I think.
Why was he even on the field?
Damn. I’m going to have to review the tape. Again.
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
so was Suppan...
a bad hip?! whoa.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Soup wasn't on the DL yet,
I’m wondering if there was a rule that a DL’d player can’t be on the field during play, or something to that effect.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I don't know... I thought he was headed for the DL or ... something.
I can’t remember. but it wasn’t a bad hip
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
tweets are saying you're right.
just for coming onto the field.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
that's pretty damn stupid...
MLB you are one strange cat.
"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean
Strained left hip
Prognosis is that he’s out until late Aug at least.
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I swear I didn't even see him. the umps must have heard him say something.
man, this is like a Struggle with Our Jungian Shadow…. to the extreeeeeeeeeeme.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Kids, always recycle
… TO THE EXTREEEME!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Reminds me of http://www.designck.net/2008/02/sons-of-most-high.html
(didn’t see the original on the PBF site any more)
Haha. One of my favorites.
I love that comic. I kinda figured the author quit a while ago though.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
phillips deserved to be suspended, IMO
but then if you suspend phillips, you suspend molina.
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Keep on hatin', Brandon Phillips. You woke the sleeping giant!
Fire Tony LaRussa
by zoomzoomj88 on Aug 12, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Molina needs a day off anyway.
Suspending a pitcher for 7 games seems weird to me. Kind of like a statement saying “You’re damn lucky we’re not suspending you for two starts.”
Seems like a way to ensure that he misses a start
rather than having the rotation adjusted so that he starts, serves the suspension, then start the game right after.
Plus, I guess he misses 7 days pay too (?)
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
does this open it up to Harang?
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
there was an odd man out (or two or three) for the Reds, and I thought Harang was it.
Homer?
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Both Harang and Bailey are on the DL I think.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
I think Harang just had a good simulated game or rehab start.
Thought I saw something about it, anyway.
Correct re pay
which really, is not a substantial thing. I’m too lazy to go over to Cot’s and check, but pretty sure Cueto’s still making the min. So a couple extra game is like, 5-6k, guesstimate?
True
I think this is pretty fair, although you’ll have Dusty and all the other Reds players jawing about how no cardinal was suspended. I hope that Phillips’ fine is a hell of a lot more than Yadi’s though.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Aug 12, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
the scribes ain't happy.
- JohnMarecek 7 games for Cueto is an effing joke. So a position player would be fined 1 or 2 games for such actions? Start taking bats to the mound #mlb half a minute ago via TweetDeck
- Ackerman1120 Don’t be fooled by 7 games for Cueto. That’s one start missed. And that’s weak. 2 minutes ago via UberTwitter
I think there might have been too much to his defense — which we picked apart — to really give him more.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
given the whole Volquez joke, I don't think the Reds can say they've never gotten any breaks.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah.
It’s tough to not sign up to Red Reporter and flame the shit out of them when they go off on McGwire after the Volquez thing.
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
i'm going to venture over to RR
and i’m sure they’ll be PO’d about the whole ‘cueto suspended but no cardinal was’ thing.
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Keep on hatin', Brandon Phillips. You woke the sleeping giant!
Fire Tony LaRussa
by zoomzoomj88 on Aug 12, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
let's not comment, y'all.
emotions will be running high either way.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly.
Nothing productive can come from posting there now.
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
i wasn't going to
i was just going to see their reactions.
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Keep on hatin', Brandon Phillips. You woke the sleeping giant!
Fire Tony LaRussa
by zoomzoomj88 on Aug 12, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
sure enough, i was right!
How does Carpenter not get suspended? He instigated the violent part of the whole thing.
Fucking bullshit. Carpenter and Molina both deserve suspensions
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Keep on hatin', Brandon Phillips. You woke the sleeping giant!
Fire Tony LaRussa
by zoomzoomj88 on Aug 12, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
...gee, thanks for stirring up emotions over here, too.
lol
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Shocker!
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
You missed their quote where they say Phillips should have been suspended for instigating the whole thing.
/oh wait.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
I wonder what Carpenter said
The JS chat didn’t list it, all he said was it would be given a fine by the FCC. It had to be something good for Dusty and Scotty to real get into it. Any thoughts?
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Aug 12, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe....
Carpenter dissed Dusty’s toothpick. Never, ever, diss a man’s toothpick
INB4 TWSS
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Aug 12, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Or his wristbands.
Maybe both.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
we discussed it in the previous thread
nothing conclusive.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
New tweet
<a href=“http:// ”https://twitter.com/JoeStrauss/status/20988082988" target="new">JoeStrauss Guess MLB determined Rolen a peace-maker but he did initially go after Carp when he dropped F-bomb on Dusty. Pile-up a reax to Rolen-Carp. " target="new">
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
link fail
unicorn:
fail
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
WTH...
JoeStrauss Guess MLB determined Rolen a peace-maker but he did initially go after Carp when he dropped F-bomb on Dusty. Pile-up a reax to Rolen-Carp.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Carpenter does deserve to be suspended
I am a Reds fan, and I would of given Molina and Phillips 2 each, and Carpenter and Cueto 5 each.
Remember, none of the pinning up against the screen would of happened if Chris “I Yell At My Own Teammates Because Their Glove Broke” Carpenter would of shut his mouth. Carp can sure pitch, but as a person he can be a major ass.
You call it being an ass, I call it being intense
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Aug 12, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Cueto was pinned on the net.
What was he supposed to do? Climb it like a cargo net? Like Jonny Gomes said, if you don’t want to be kicked, get out of the way.
If you Ctrl + F mojowo, you'll see that this really isn't true
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Uhh.. Nevermind. Maybe that was last night's thread
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
He was pinned by his own teammates!
And he put himself in that predicament!
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
Perhaps not kick?
You know, like Carpenter did when he was pinned up against the net not 30 seconds before Cueto.
See
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Aug 12, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
It was not possible for anyone to get out of the way
It was a stampede for cryin out loud
by No Way Down on Aug 12, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
reposting link
stop and read.
it will take a moment or two to load to the specific comment.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
And please note the picture two comments down from that one as well.
Cueto ran around the scrum to get involved, and ended up getting pinned.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
hahaha
really? ‘cause when my own team-mates are pinning me to the net, my very first inclination is to try to kick the opposing team’s backup catcher in the face.
get out of the way? what the fuck are you talking about? there’s no way anyone in that teeming mass of people could “get out of the way.”
there was absolutely no reason to kick anyone. at all.
cueto is a yellow-bellied douchenozzle for doing what he did. that doesn’t mean the cardinals were right for what they did, but cueto fucking bicycle kicked someone in the face.
lemme kick you in the face and see if you can rationalise so well.
"I don't know where Cueto learned to fight."-- Chris Carpenter
do not mess with yadi f. molina
If you're responding to me
I was saying there is no way that LaRue could have “Got out of the way if he didn’t want to be kicked”, as one reds commenter suggested
maybe...
Cueto suffers from claustrophobia and flipped out when he was pinned to the net?
You fit into me
like a hook into an eye
a fish hook
an open eye
by his own players
so he decided to kick Cardinal players. Makes a hell a lot of sense.
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
thats what i'm here for...
but seriously when people get hysterical they don’t care who is around them and they flip out..
or maybe Cueto is just a little bitch.
You fit into me
like a hook into an eye
a fish hook
an open eye
Have you ever been in a Mosh Pit at a rock concert?
I have and I’ve freaked out when I’ve been pushed against the rail and thought I was going to get crushed. I started putting forearms in people’s throats to get the f back. THIS IS NOT THAT SITUATION AT ALL! Cueto was against the wall for maybe – what – a couple seconds? He was pushed against a net THAT GIVES! There is no way he freaked out beause he thought he was getting crushed. If he freaked out that he was pinned then how in the hell did he get his feet up in the air to start kicking at people????
Totally ridiculous. He deserved at lest 15 games.
Official sponsor of Fat Jesus.
None of this would have happened if Brandon Phillips had not popped off and expected the Cardinals to not take exception to it.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
thats fine
but the situation had cooled and both sides had separated, until Carp got involved. Watch the video, it’s easy to see.
Yet it was Rolen that actually induced violence
He was the one that actually escalated it. Cueto got pushed into the nets by the Reds players. Than as soon as a Cardinal came into sight he started to kick.
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 12, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
click on the link above.
if anyone’s going to go over here and argue facts with us, it would be nice not to rehash — from multiple videos and sources.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Johnny Cueto kicked a human being in the face with metal spikes. That’s assault if it happens outside of a baseball field.
5 games would be a joke. 7 games is a joke.
Albert Pujols is ridiculous.
It's still assault when it happens on a baseball field.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
not necessarily
there are some “assumption of the risk” type defenses.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
get out of here with your "law degree"
we’re going to have to start calling you IHeartTLR
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
Not that I'm thinking that charges should have been filed,
but how is getting kicking in the head an assumption of risk at a baseball game?
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
"My name is Jason LaRue—" "Stop right there."
/tongue-in-cheek
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
getting involved in a giant 60+ person brawl is an assumption of the risk of injury, generally, i would think.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
True.
Was only thinking in terms of playing the game, not the brawl itself.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
also, while not common, i can imagine some scenarios where a baseball player would get kicked in the head just playing the game
collision between fielders trying to make a play, collision at the plate, sliding hard into second to break up a double play….
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
It's the worst thing I've ever seen happen on a field
Wasn’t Happy Gilmore the only guy to ever take off his skate and try to stab somebody?
by No Way Down on Aug 12, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Carp was pinned and wasn't kicking
I saw this comment on the RR
by martimeryard on Aug 12, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
ummm Hello MixFMKyle you are a fine diplomat.
But really now….
Chris "I Yell At My Own Teammates Because Their Glove Broke" Carpente
you don’t even know what really conspired between boog and carp
"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean
here, let me try
johnny “i kick people in the face for doing nothing to me because that’s how i roll” cueto
dusty “i like to break young pitchers’ arms because i am a retard” baker
jonny “derp derp” gomes
"I don't know where Cueto learned to fight."-- Chris Carpenter
do not mess with yadi f. molina
y'all, seriously.
let it go. you’re just giving them more stuff to blockquote like they’re zoomzoom. they’re looking for a big fat reason to eff around with our threads. let’s not serve moar.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
oh i was tired of being mature.
"I don't know where Cueto learned to fight."-- Chris Carpenter
do not mess with yadi f. molina
Never be mature...
it’s the mature thing to do…
"I don't like to sound egotistical, but every time I stepped up to the plate with a bat in my hands, I couldn't help but feel sorry for the pitcher." Rogers hornsby.
llisten
the sooner everybody realizes WTF happened between Carp & Ryan, the better. If you think he was yelling at Ryan strictly because Carp is an asshole, you’re just fucking wrong. Period.
If it hadn’t been Carp, it would have been La Russa. You can’t be late to the field in the major leagues. You can’t have the wrong equipment in the major leagues.
moar
- JohnMarecek So, if a scrum breaks out, and takes 3 or 4 whacks with a bat, does that equal a 2 game suspension for a position player? #mlb #stlcards 3 minutes ago via TweetDeck
- dgoold So Cueto, if he serves all 7 games of suspension (yeah, right), will serve 7 more games of his suspension than Volquez. #stlcards #reds 7 minutes ago via web
- JohnMarecek Sounds like Bob Watson needs a set of spikes planted in his grill. Apparently he doesn’t think it’s a very big deal #mlb #stlcards 8 minutes ago via TweetDeck
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
er.... don't read Strauss.
you need extreme unicorns. with rocket launchers.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
dgoold has mind-melded with us
dgoold Doesn’t it make sense to make Cueto’s suspension as long as LaRue’s absence? Just tie the two together. #stlcards #reds 3 minutes ago via web
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Been saying that since I saw it happen.
Doesn’t the NHL try to do this too?
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
goold is a member of veb,
i’m sure of it.
"I don't know where Cueto learned to fight."-- Chris Carpenter
do not mess with yadi f. molina
though, wouldnt we then say..oh no..he can't come back for the season...
his WAR would go up, because it would negate Cueto’s
Cueto deserved 15
LaRue should have been DL’ed to force that issue. Our guy is now out 15 games because your guy kicked him, so your guy should be out the same amount of time.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
agreed...i just read the mlb article and havent read into it at all but...i guess they tried to be as neutral
as possible…whether ppl agree or not…id like to hear an outsider with no emotional attachment to hear their take like reynolds or kukjian
by guillermozeliak on Aug 12, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
YOU GUYS. TLR SUSPENDED TWO GAMES MEANS WE MIGHT HAVE THE SAME LINEUPS AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
He probably won't serve the suspension during that series
Appeals and all
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Aug 12, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I suspect TLR won't appeal this.
I’ve been wrong about more important stuff than this, though. Probably even today.
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Heard on Bernie's show
that TLR would serve Friday and Saturday. Don’t know if that’s the official word, though.
I will look for TLR in shades and a mustache in the crowd saturday
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
TLR
will still make the lineup. He’s still the mgr.
can they tuna fish?
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Chico, is that you?
"Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." --Churchill
You can't a fool a me
there ain’t no sanity clause!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I did not know this
Thank you Pegasus.
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Aug 12, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Managers cannot appeal suspensions
because they do not have a union which has negotiated specific grievance procedures, such as the MLB Players Association has done.
Repeal The LaRussa Tax.
by Michael_68_1999 on Aug 12, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
what if they are former players and still pay their dues?
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
I suppose if
managers wanted to form their own union, they could. Or if the MLBPA would vote to allow managers to join their union, they could enjoy the protections of the union, too. But to date, that hasn’t happened.
Even if they’re former players, they don’t enjoy the current protections of the MLBPA, and do not pay dues.
Repeal The LaRussa Tax.
by Michael_68_1999 on Aug 12, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
just give him a bucket or two, and he'll be fine.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
let us enjoy the moment.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
like I said earlier... the only time Miles got into a game was after TRL was booted
"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean
*TLR
"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean
I'd like to request the music video for "Oops I did it again"
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
FYI check the fanshots for a stunning stat on that.....
http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2010/8/12/1618926/same-lineup-in-all-3-games-of-a
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
that would be epic.
but does he not get to make the lineups when suspended? i thought he just can’t be in the dugout. or is he not allowed at the stadium at all?
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
From what I read,
He’s allowed on field and in the clubhouse pre/post game, but will have to be in either the owners box or out of the stadium during play.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
are there restrictions against him making the lineup? i mean there would be no way to prevent that, really.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
No, I'm sure he will.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Albert sneaks up to Oquendo
“Jose, mang, I… I’ve always wanted to hit fifth.”
“…”
“It jus’ looks like so much fun.”
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Jayson Stark, like a fool, portrays it as more violent than it was
I wish people would separate the brawl part from the stampede part.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
He left out the part where Aaron Miles crowd-surfed into the green seats.
by Ghostrider520 on Aug 12, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And the fans gave him back.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
by TBender on Aug 12, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Colby Rasmus, Road Warrior
at home: .661 OPS
on the road: .928 OPS
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2010 12:37 PM EDT reply actions
diapers.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
and 3 am feedings
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
that's the one
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
who is the manager for the 2 games Larussa is suspended
I wonder if he will be barfing a lot
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2010 12:38 PM EDT reply actions
Let Red do it!!
"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean
we could have a coaches death-match
of course, that would result in Mac managing.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Joe, I've never seen you walking around with a Bluetooth headset before.
Um…. my wife got it for… um, my birthday. Yeah.
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Once again, the troll gets what he came here for.
Seriously, SBN. Sub-thread collapse. Look in to it.
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 12:50 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
and don't feed trolls
seriously. it’s an epidemic, and we gotta stop doing that as we get closer to crunch time. learn from BP.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
namely... attention whores... they're only after one thing.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Now RR is going to be fired up for the annual VEB vs RR softball game
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
That would be fun
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Aug 12, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
i wouldn't trust myself
but that would be a blast.
"I don't know where Cueto learned to fight."-- Chris Carpenter
do not mess with yadi f. molina
now that is a cool idea
they taunt us, while we beat them 36-9
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
i have a feeling veb would be well-prepared with better beer.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
no old style.
"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean
Schlafly >>>>>>>>>>> Old Style
How did the Cubs latch on to that swill anyway? It isn’t local.
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
The Brewers fans would bring Miller products and PBR
They lose
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Aug 12, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn't Leinenkugel brewed up there?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Chippewa Falls
which is across the state. Localish, like Boulevard would be to StL, I guess.
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
The best product placement of all time, that's how
Old Style purchased the rights to be the “Official Beer of Wrigley Field” back in the 70’s I think — and bleacher bums have been drinking that crap ever since.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
we'd still be drunk from the night prior
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
We wouldn't SHOW UP drunk
we’d just get hammered during the proceedings.
Therein lies the difference — and if you’ve ever been to a game at Wrigley, you know what I mean.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Wasn't trying to be a troll
Just enjoy the discussion. I have my opinion, you have yours. No hard feelings or name calling. Just was a discussion. I enjoy popping my head over here from time to time, because usually the coverage is pretty good.
then I can only say
read more.
we spent close to 3000 comments trying to figure out what happened. when you pop off with an opinion that is not based on the facts, just like all the other commenters from other blogs over the last few days, it is increasingly hard to distinguish, and next to impossible to have a discussion.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Y2S
You are the voice of reason…
"I don't like to sound egotistical, but every time I stepped up to the plate with a bat in my hands, I couldn't help but feel sorry for the pitcher." Rogers hornsby.
poor Chipper.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 1:02 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Seconded.
I have as much affection for Chipper Jones as I’ve got for pretty much any other non-Cardinal. Writing’s been on the wall for a while, but sad to see it finally happen.
Although, it WAS starting to seem like his attitude was, “I’ll play until I’m injured severely enough to force me out.” So there you go.
and he went down on an incredible play.
man.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
It's kind of like Farve's last play in the playoffs last year.
Except completely different.
CHIPPER JONES AIN’T AFFRAID TO RUN.
Can a brotha get a link?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
....I can't help but remember when Brendan Ryan's mustache scared him into a tag.
oh the heady mustachioed days of 09
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
wow, Strauss is being a bigger ass than usual.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I'm happy that my lone Twit outlet, SBN StL, doesn't follow him.
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
a bit of a moooooostery
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
replay fail
my work computer really doesn’t like sbn lately
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
hockey writer Andy Strickland weighs on in the suspension....
andystrickland Pronger gets 8 games for stepping on Ryan Kesler..Johnny Cueto misses 1 start for repeatedly kicking a dude in the face with metal spikes on
14 minutes ago via web
Anyone Remember Ivan Caulderon??
http://puertorico-herald.org/issues/2004/vol8n02/PRSportsBeat0802-en.html
Did anyone else know he was shot in the back of the head in Puerto Rico in 2004? Did I entirely miss this news, or was it just not reported much? I remember seeing him play when he was with the Expos when they came to Philly. Weird and sad…
:=8(
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
yeah, I remember the name
that’s pretty f’d up, cow!
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn't know they made RBI Baseball past #3
Intriguing…
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
you gotta wonder what carp said to dusty
to get rolen charging at him. almost wonder if it was an n-bomb
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
maybe you know chris carpenter better than i do
i don’t know the guy. i was just contemplating what the worst thing he could say to dusty was
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
Carp said: "Pitcher Killer"
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
Yeah seems like a bit much.
One thing: when you think about it, this whole thing is in large part a Carp-Dusty feud. Right? I’m mean, Carp bitching (because c’mon, that’s what it was) about the Reds not preparing his baseballs is at the root of it. Dusty’s the one who ultimately is responsible for that. So when BP says “the Cards are whiny bitches” he’s pretty much aiming that squarely at Carp, who I’m guessing was more pissed at Dusty than BP about the whole thing.
So basically, Carp getting all Carp-y in Dusty’s face doesn’t surprise me a bit.
It wasn't just Carpenter
John Smoltz:
“I’ve been pitching a long time, and [those were] the worst baseballs I’ve ever pitched with in my life,” Smoltz said. “The other guy [Cincinnati’s Bronson Arroyo] was pitching with them too, so he did a nice job. But I mean, I walked [four] guys all year and then I walked five today. … I had no feel for the baseball, and that’s about the worst thing you can have as a pitcher when you’re trying to make and rely on your pitches.”
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Aug 12, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
god what a little bitch
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
by prophetjohn on Aug 12, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
FHOF'er bitches
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
there appears to be two likely scenarios
1. The reds orchestrated a cheating-by-unprepared-baseballs-for-the-opposing-team conspiracy or..
2. Someone in the ball preparation chain of command dropped the um… ball.
Considering that the simplest explanation is usually correct, Carp and Smoltz are too good and too experienced for there not to have been a problem. Where there’s smoke there’s fire right?
It was telling that the clubhouse attendant
apologized to TLR (IIRC), and basically said he did what he was told.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I'll have to dig.....
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Not exactly an apology, but
clubhouse attendant Mike Dillon, who rubs mud on the balls, stopped in La Russa’s office.
"I had nothing to do with those balls (Wednesday) and I’m the one who rubbed them up, but I had nothing to do with them. I don’t know what happened after they were over there but you look at them (Thursday) and they’ll be the same," said Dillon.
La Russa showed Dillon two balls he saved from Wednesday and said, "Do they looked rubbed up to you?"
Said Dillon, "No. I rubbed up the balls but they weren’t like that. That’s all I’m going to say. I’m telling you I don’t cheat. I don’t lie. I had nothing to do with it. Somehow the mud got off them."
La Russa said, "I knew they were up to shenanigans. I appreciate you saying that."
Of Arroyo, La Russa added, "The guy’s got pine tar all over his hat and the our guy (Smoltz) is out there naked. We’ve got about six of those balls around here. That was pretty lousy. (Arroyo) found a little edge. You can’t let the starting pitcher influence how the balls are prepared for the game."
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Was John Smoltz in a baseball fanfic too?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Aug 12, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I hope not.....That one paragraph
has already scarred me.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
That's the first I've heard about that.
I’m getting kinda tired of the TLR/Johnny B Baker side show. It isn’t about them.
"I told myself from the very beginning: 'If he's going to throw a shutout, then he's going to tie,'" Wainwright said. "He was not going to beat me today."
I'd kinda like the fact that Tony doesn't let that shit slide
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
to bad he couldn't do anything about Penny pitching through a hurricane
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
by Evilfrog on Aug 12, 2010 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Whitey would have been out there arguing to help the delay.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
This can't be real
“I knew they were up to shenanigans.”?!
Who the fuck actually says that?!
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Aug 12, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
another:
mlb fan house
PD
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
VEB
Don’t you accuse me of making stuff up Mr. Redbird, no sir.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Geez
I didn’t say you were making it up. I just thought the article was a phony.
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Aug 12, 2010 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
lol
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
heh, that was my sig until the boog spinning phenomenon
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
shenanigans!
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I was contemplating that
it seems that would be the easiest way to escalate the melee. I prefer to think he said “you mf’ing pansies are a bunch of shit talking losers” but I doubt he said that
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought we settled this.
He called him Kip Wells.
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
oh come on
you know what word he means.
stop playing like you’re cowpletely dumb.
"I don't know where Cueto learned to fight."-- Chris Carpenter
do not mess with yadi f. molina
that's two words
for GOB’s sake.
"I don't know where Cueto learned to fight."-- Chris Carpenter
do not mess with yadi f. molina
great.
you set off the cow.
this is all your fault.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
i'm sorry, VEB
this is like palindromes all over again
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
dear prophet,
tehporp raed.
"I don't know where Cueto learned to fight."-- Chris Carpenter
do not mess with yadi f. molina
not a chance
If Carp threw the n-bomb, with 40 guys of all ethnicities around him to hear it, he’d be Randy Marsh’ed.
Has anyone really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
by Vindicator9000 on Aug 12, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
strauss says it was because he dropped to f-bomb
the thing erupted because carp said “fuck”
that was the first time he had said it yet?
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
Carps verbal weapon of choice.
"When a pitcher's throwing a spitball, don't worry and don't complain, just hit the dry side like I do." - Stan Musial
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss." - Dizzy Dean
by shadetree on Aug 12, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
So where was the on-field brawl
in the opener when Carp screamed “Get out of here, you fucker!” loud enough for the FS Midwest mikes to pick it up? Shouldn’t the Reds have had their tender feelings hurt then, too?
Repeal The LaRussa Tax.
by Michael_68_1999 on Aug 12, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I just want to know what set Carp off
does he just casually say ‘fuck you’ all the time? “oh check out the weather, fuck you” “change the channel fuck you” “here’s the salt and pepper fuck you”?
I mean… in parsing the many uses of ‘fuck’, it’s a little difficult to use it as a non-response.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think Dusty said....something
And Carp responded with the bomb, and it went downhill from there.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
honestly if Tony and Dusty had just kept their traps shut, instead of dragging their little junior high slapfight into a fray of two dozen guys...
if there’d been weaves, they’d be pulled.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I picture both of them in the Old Manager's Home
Still squawking at each other over the last glass of prune juice and whether to watch Matlock or Golden Girls.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
"It kills rallies!" "You wouldn't know a sac bunt if it hit you in the sacks." "What is that supposed to mean??"
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
if you keep your eye on those two, Carp would never have made that sudden move if Dusty hadn't started hollering
which in turn put Scotty into Must Stop Carp mode.
did they practice that, all those years? MV3 drills…. stop drop and roll…
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
It's like how Superman gave Batman that bit of kryptonite
“In case I ever go crazy Scott, I want you to take me down.”
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 12, 2010 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
oh damn it
why’d you have to go there???
I’ve… I’ve got some allergies, be right back.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Something stuck in your eye again, huh?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
...I just like posting pics of Waino. don't judge me.
But… we only use that in a positive way. It’s very unprofessional to fire back, y’know. Just go out there and win the game on the field, not off the field.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Evil Wainwright!
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Aug 12, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
look at him trying to be mild-mannered!
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
by the way... who dares to get a screenshot of Kyle McClellan and the state of his... thing. on his face. stache beard growth.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I'm picturing
McClellan out for dinner, in a sports jacket, ordering the coq au vin.
Repeal The LaRussa Tax.
by Michael_68_1999 on Aug 12, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm picturing McClellan in a smoking jacket, pipe in hand.
by Ghostrider520 on Aug 12, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
with the sleeves cut off?
Cardinals Baseball 2010: Why have only one 25th man when you can have four?
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Aug 12, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
it's just that K-Mac's has gone beyond squirrel and into muskrat territory
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
We're on to him
But again, as long as he pitches like Good Wainwright…
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
he is bizarro carp
they are like wario and mario. only pitchers. and not italian. and not…you get the picture
Also, it looks like Cincy's visitors clubhouse is kinda shitty.
The Cards’ visitors clubhouse looks like a palace compared to that.
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
that's the one.
I was thinking cheap club gym for a bit.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
gym club?
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
cym glub?
"I don't know where Cueto learned to fight."-- Chris Carpenter
do not mess with yadi f. molina
i know a dozen places' names, but I don't know what one calls them.
but again: no coffee.
what is wrong with me, brew coffee you moron.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
only seems to work with 80s uniforms.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
F15teen?
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
did this thread just come full-circle?
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
And....we're back on topic.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
Mr. Gym, to you.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
by TBender on Aug 12, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
no one rec'd this?
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
any idea why I can see some pics, and not see others?
for example, I can’t see this one, but I can see the one of JEd under the title “Obligatory” above. I thought it might be some sort of firewall issue at work, but I’m pretty sure i miss a lot of pics at home too.
youneverknow
I get that too at work
Don’t think I miss any at home or on my phone though. Could it be a browser issue? What browser do use?
Cardinals Baseball 2010: Why have only one 25th man when you can have four?
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Aug 12, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
this.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
hmm, I guess i need to adjust my firewall at home
…because I get the same problem there. Any idea what sort of setting to look for? On the other hand, with two teenage sons, maybe I should just leave things as they are.
youneverknow
also, anybody know why some images come through and others don't?
thanks for your help guys.
youneverknow
It really just depends on the image host....
for example, imgur may get through, but not photobucket.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Firewalls don't usually filter stuff out.
Proxies usually do that job in a corporate environment. The two terms are often lumped together.
Your home firewall probably isn’t filtering stuff, but it’s (slightly) possible.
Do you see a blank image with a red X in it, or do you get nothing at all?
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I get nothing at all when the work
network blocks it.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Bummer.
I was hoping that there would be something there so you, floodOfLove, etc. could look at the URL and see where it’s coming from. Then you could troubleshoot from there.
Without that, you’d have to dig in the page source to see what isn’t coming through.
floodOfLove, have you tried another browser? Checked for malware?
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
haven't tried another browser yet
shouldn’t be malware at work since everything is locked down pretty tight, but I guess there’s always the possibility.
youneverknow
What's the difference?
At work, I get some that are just nothing and some blank with the red X. And occasionally those will load if I right-click and hit “Show Image” or whatever it says.
Cardinals Baseball 2010: Why have only one 25th man when you can have four?
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Aug 12, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Firewalls usually filter at a lower level, blocking / allowing everything based on rules
that can include ip address (or ranges), ports, etc.
Proxies look inside the traffic and figure out if you’re going to playboy.com or yahoo.com.
Some firewalls can do URL filtering as well. Most corporate environments that I’ve seen use a firewall for gross filtering / blocking and a web proxy for filtering (and reporting on) web traffic.
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
When the terms are combined, it can be misleading.
“If the firewall at work is blocking this, then maybe my firewall at home is blocking stuff too.” It usually doesn’t work that way.
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
aaahhh...
got it. Thanks.
Cardinals Baseball 2010: Why have only one 25th man when you can have four?
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Aug 12, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
it's actually more of a web filter
which is part of the firewall
at least at my place of employment
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
you're assuming a large corporation
At most companies, that’s all lumped together on 1 device.
That's happening more with ISA Server and some of the all-in-ones, true.
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
a poster in the BBTF's comments
made an interesting comparison, Edmonds :: Trammell, regarding Jimmy’s HOF candidacy. Just checked baseball reference, Trammell’s career WAR: 66.9
Anyone know where i can find video of Colby's entire at bat yesterday?
All I can find is the GS pitch
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME
SC / bbtn was showing the good part for the past 24 hours
i tried to alert someone who could catch it…
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
yea
i just missed the at bat…and Gameday made it look like it was an epic AB
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME
that's what I mean, though
half the at-bat.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Johnny Cueto is going to take his 7 day suspension
and try to walk-on at Bengals training camp as a place-kicker.
I Herd He was Gonna Bartend....
…so he cud spike people’s drinks when he’s in the net…
;=8)
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
With his newfound propensity to commit
near-felonious assault, he’ll fit right in on that roster.
Repeal The LaRussa Tax.
by Michael_68_1999 on Aug 12, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Brandon Faillips
thanks to whomever posted the screenshot from yesterday. I think Skip was the batter.
by nota bene on Aug 12, 2010 2:31 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
there was a condensed game video up last night on mlb.com which had the whole thing in slo-mo.
fun to watch.
Don't say hi to me.
don't know if this has been mentioned, but it occurred to me: didn't brandon backe talk some shit to pujols a couple of years ago that fired up him (or the team) in a similar way?
these brandons man…they hate us
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
yeah...
there was a comment posted about Phillips saying people agreed with him. First thing that came to my mind was, “Who, Backe?”
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
Dick Pole.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Was it Backe that...
…came up and in on Pujols, and Albert just gave him one of those “Do you not know who the f—- I am?” stares, and immediately cranked the next pitch out of the park?
I swear to god I remember that happening after the Backe comments blew up.
Being Backe, this may have happened to more than Pujols
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
I do believe this afternoon....
…I shall devote myself to the consumption of a number of yummy frozen alcoholic bevvies….
:=8)
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
for those so inclined
the Brandon Phillips is a huge douche facebook page
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Brandon-Phillips-is-the-biggest-douche/130522453659557?ref=search
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2010 3:07 PM EDT reply actions
heh
lots of stupid comments there, as expected, but some guy on there has liked his own status. Seriously? You can do that? My faith in humanity is [restored/at-an-all-time-low?].
Don't say hi to me.
I saw that too, he joined the group to defend Brandon Phillips and then liked his own post
while everyone else was bashing him….funny shit…
'Hold my stones!'
----Johnny Cueto fights like a little bitch----
yeah, I didn't even read the comments
and yep, people can like their own status thing. I know a guy that likes every status update he puts up as a joke.
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
i posted this last night, but i am doing it again and i don't care:
a good friend of my brother’s growing up got called up to the majors today…too bad its with the Cubs. anyway, cool to see someone you watched play baseball when they were 10 years old actually make it.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
so he'll be in STL for his first game?
good luck, kid…
great baseball name, though
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
actually he's in SF right now.
i kind of hope he gets a start against the Cardinals.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
ahh
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
that article is bizarre
yahoo has comments from a year ago tacked to it.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
i just noticed that...odd. there is discussion of so taguchi
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
maybe it's some kind of Sign.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Wow, what a name...
Evolution Big-Purple Dinosaur…but in all seriousness, good luck kid. Hopefully you can get out of Chicago before the Curse follows you around.
'Hold my stones!'
----Johnny Cueto fights like a little bitch----
i kind of wish he would get traded somewhere innocuous...like seattle
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
...snicker.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
You guys are the worst
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
hey i didn't mean that to be inflammatory.
i was just thinking of a team that doesn’t play the cardinals that would pretty much never play the cardinals and isn’t full of a bunch of douches.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
True. Seattle's pretty undouchey
Heard an interesting story about Ichiro the other day. If you approach him with a baseball and a Sharpie, he’ll probably sign it. If you approach him with a baseball and a pen, he won’t sign it. And when he does sign, he only signs on the seams
Sounds like OCD to me
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
What?
So he’ll autograph balls with a sharpie and not a pen so people don’t make money off him?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
I've heard autograph hounds prefer blue Bic in the sweet spot.
Sometimes players refuse to sign the sweet spot.
Not an apologist.
Really? Interesting
I suppose that might be true, but judging by all the other stories I’ve heard about Ichiro, i think it’s far more likely that he’s just really idiosyncratic
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
IHB Retweet
JimBowdenXMFOX
Brandon Phillips asked Rhodes if it was wrong to make the comments and then asked if he should apologize to the team..Rhodes said yes &media
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
The fact he had to ask those questions...
Sigh.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
self-actualization takes a while
especially with a distended head.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Goold covers the ballot. The Ballot.
Into my inbox this week came the 2010 Cy Young Award ballot, and this season it comes with a twist — really, an improvement. Having learned a lesson from last year’s vote, the ballot has been expanded. Instead of voting on the top three candidates for the award, this season the 32 writers with a NL Cy Young Award ballot will list the top five choices.
also reminds us how HUGE Waino’s vesting option is.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
How have guys not pounced on this?
He’s citing BABIP, but… (Note, he refers to BABIP as BIPA)
Lincecum’s .276 BIPA was 26th in the league. Not exactly world-beating, but then the stat is a slippery one when defining a pitcher. After all, Wainwright’s was fourth on his own team. Forty-eight pitchers had a lower BIPA than Wainwright’s .290, including Carpenter (.256), Joel Pineiro (.278) and Kyle Lohse (.283).
He infers that having a low BABIP is equivalent to having a low ERA or FIP. That it’s a pitching quality to have a low BABIP. I dunno, it just..rubbed me the wrong way.
i saw it and cringed
but i assumed that this was what started the whole waino/luck/BABIP conversation. didn’t read it.
it’s bad analysis, for sure
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
by prophetjohn on Aug 12, 2010 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Apparently for my farewell lunch tomorrow, my department is taking me to the most expensive seafood/steak place in Seattle
Sweeeeeeeeeet
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Long John Silvers?
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
They don't have steak, idiot
Applebee’s
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Which place?
I’ve ate at a few good places there.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Uhhh about 12:00
Why?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
I'll be looking for the guy in the Cards hat staring at me through the window
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Looks really good. That wasn't one that I hasd been too, however.
$34 for a 12oz NY strip is NVTS, btw.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Monty Python Pike Place Market?
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
The crab is fantastic. Though I prefer snow crab to dungeoness
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
crab cakes at one of the places at the market
were awesome.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
The market in general is awesome. Cheapest flowers I've ever seen
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
I got my gal some really cool jewelry
last time I was out there.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Oh, I've never watched it =/
Though my friend’s dad’s band (Brewer and Shipley’s “One Toke Over the Line” is featured in the movie
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING
AND GO RENT THAT MOVIE!!!!
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
yes...also
Bill Murray in Where the Buffalo Roam was awesome.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Indeed
I agree with RiverRat. Watch the movie. Then watch the movie while on some sort of illegal substance.
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Aug 12, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I prefer the other way around, myself.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Seafood in Louisiana (really the gulf coast as a whole)
God tier
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Aug 12, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
sushi in seattle is amazing. its not even worth eating elsewhere
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
I haven't had sushi in Seattle, but LA sushi is amazing. Much better Japanese district
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
well okay i have only had sushi in seattle, portland, D.C., phoenix, and tucson
so it is best of those 5 and that’s saying a lot because portland has great food as a rule
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
Yep.
Just saw him at baggage claim at Lambert.
by Ghostrider520 on Aug 12, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
here's the actual article
jeter will always be a yankee.
"I don't know where Cueto learned to fight."-- Chris Carpenter
do not mess with yadi f. molina
Wow, 23 years ago
Tigers traded Smoltz for Doyle Alexander
"You've got to have an attitude if your going to go far in this game." -- Bob Gibson
Jeter a Cardinal?
I think the team would explode when he and Carp stare off on a bad play up the middle. He is pretty intense himself.
You fit into me
like a hook into an eye
a fish hook
an open eye
or talking.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Moment of silence is in order for the end of a future-HOF'ers' career
I know it’s been mentioned, but Chipper went out in style last night, tearing his ACL on one of the better defensive plays you’ll see from 3B this year.
Career #’s for people that may not have been in chipper-love as some of us…
17 seasons, .306/.405/.536, 80.0 WAR, 1 MVP
Never got the respect he deserved from awards voters, partly because his peak was actually in his 30’s (07 and 08 were fantastic) when the Braves were also-rans. Probably deserved MVP in 2007, but he never hit enough dingers, a very OBP-heavy OPS generally, but still OPS’ed over 1.0 5 times in his career, including a 165 OPS+ in 2007 at the age of 35.
Fare thee well, Chipper.
"If I'm in a slump, I ask myself for advice" - Ichiro
by Toppins on Aug 12, 2010 4:21 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
7 games then an appeal
hell serve 3 what a joke
This guys so good(Pujols) He should be illegal-Pirates announcers
It'll be at least 5,
He’s gotta miss a start.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Vote for Tino.
Do it. You know you want to.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
Aaron Miles.
We must have GRIT.
Repeal The LaRussa Tax.
by Michael_68_1999 on Aug 12, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Anyone played the new Madden yet?
What about NCAA Football?
I have Madden 10 and I’m not sure whether I want to pay $60 for what equates to a roster upgrade.
New NCAA is pretty sweet
They made some decent improvements to the game, although I’ve noticed a few glitches.
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Aug 12, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I was leaning towards getting NCAA because I haven't purchased that series since NCAA 08, I think.
And I hear the series has really come a long way.
by Ghostrider520 on Aug 12, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't get Madden 11... The game physics are a bit better, but it's the same game with more annoying additions
Haven’t played NCAA yet. I downloaded it, but since I can’t update the game with the patches, I don’t know if it’ worth it…
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Played NCAA 11 last weekend
Didn’t get a chance to play any of the dynasty modes or link up with anyone online, but the gameplay is vastly better than last year’s game.
I did have a great time pasting my buddy (who was playing with Alabama and Nebraska) with Louisiana Tech and Air Force.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Played NCAA 11 last weekend
Didn’t get a chance to play any of the dynasty modes or link up with anyone online, but the gameplay is vastly better than last year’s game.
I did have a great time pasting my buddy (who was playing with Alabama and Nebraska) with Louisiana Tech and Air Force.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Like this?
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Aug 12, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
ok, I'm starting to get offdayitis
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2010 4:47 PM EDT reply actions
Then watch
tonight’s White Sox-Twins game. It’s a fight for first in the AL Central.
Don’t be one of those “if it doesn’t involve the Cardinals, I don’t care” kind of Cardinals fans.
Repeal The LaRussa Tax.
by Michael_68_1999 on Aug 12, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Anyone got some videos of Edmonds in the 04 playoffs?
Bud Selig, in his infinite wisdom, deletes any and all baseball videos unless they are on the mlb site. And then, they delete every archive video off the mlb site prior to 05…
Gritty Bloop Single
Gritty Bloop Single
Gritty Hustle
by OurSaviorAaronMiles on Aug 12, 2010 4:53 PM EDT reply actions
Wishful thinking
that’s what that is….
“Let’s erase all video prior to steroid testing, so people can’t mash up YouTube videos of Bonds/Sosa pre-steroid and Bonds/Sosa post-steroid.”
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
My DVD collection of games
scoffs at Bud Selig and his silly rules.
Repeal The LaRussa Tax.
by Michael_68_1999 on Aug 12, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
i really hate the yahoo commercials on mlb.tv
especially the one about the 2 minute drill.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
YOU LIKE MINI SODAS?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
YOU LIKE MINI SODAS?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
If you hit f5 and refresh the page, you don't have to watch it.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Prophetjohn posted a very useful fanpost about them a while ago.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
PJ's FP was aboot commercials on mlb.tv,
for the beginning of mlb.com videos, you merely need to start it, and when the ad starts, hit refresh. It will reload and go straight to the clip.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
But Iheartboog was talking about Mlb.tv?
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
And I wasn't paying attention.....
move along folks, nothing to see here.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
so there is nothing i can do about "but lets be honest, a two minute drill, that's like 8 minutes. the show isn't 8 minutes but it could be if ochocinco is out there making my job easier..."
aaaaaahhhhhhhhh i hate it!!! fuck you yahoo! two minute bullshit commercial
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
No, I think
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Yeesh. This place died out
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Tis the witching hour.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
You're the witching hour
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
little witches.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
The 70s weren't so bad, if you didn't know any better
I was born in 63, so I have only very faint memories of 67 and 68. As a result, I fell in love with the under-performing 1970s version of the team. I remember the year the outfield of Brock, Reggie Smith and Bake McBride all hit over .300. I thought it was great! Plus I got to follow Lou’s chase of the stolen base record, and watch the Mad Hungarian at his most fierce and effective.
Of course, 1982 made me happier than all of that.
does anybody take the BP Playoff Odds seriously?
the vanilla & ELO versions have the Cards as roughly 2:1 favorites to win the division, but the PECOTA version is nearly dead even. As of yesterday (before Wed’s game was included) PECOTA still projected the Reds over the Cards. (Been watching these the last couple days…..)
Just wondering if there’s anything specific that PECOTA doesn’t like about the Birds or if it’s more a function of how close the two teams are. Also don’t know how seriously to take the entire endeavor….
all I can think of when I heard BP is Brandon Phillips or British Petroleum
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 12, 2010 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Baseball Prospectus?
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
DON'T TEMPT THE MOOCOW
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
deepwater.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
im more of batting practice guy
and it did change to beyond petroleum
by guillermozeliak on Aug 12, 2010 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Brad Penny throws Batting Practice
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
nice one!
reading it i actually got pretty ecstatic…then very very sad
by guillermozeliak on Aug 13, 2010 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions
darwin barney comes into play second base!
wearing number 15. coincidence????
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
did the thread just come full-circle again?
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Giants just walked off against the Cubbies
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
you got sbn'd
but it looks TWICE AS SWEET
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
did I? It told me it failed to post, and only one is showing up for me.
oh well, all’s well that ends with a cubs loss.
Don't say hi to me.
reload if you dare
and… I’m sure they’ll make more.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
wouldn't Hawks be a Seahawks fan??
NateLatsch Not sure if this has hit Twitter yet, but #stlcards relievers Blake Hawksworth and Mitchell Boggs watched the #stlrams practice today. 20 minutes ago via web
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
he lives up there, I think
and he probably tweeted about it, or wrote about it with the G-Dem.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
probably thinking that they were glad they play baseball
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 12, 2010 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Boggs looked at Hawk and said, in perfect Japanese, "They're shitty"
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Aug 12, 2010 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Red has a great piece up
at the RFT.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
it begs the question though
If Scotty and Carp had actually gone at it — I don’t know. I think that’s an equal fight. it would be over fast, but I don’t think it would be automatically Carp’s KO.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I want to see it,
but I don’t. I’d give Carp the edge just on pure rage.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
"I'm not your bitch," Molina told Phillips.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Rolen has a bigger body.
I would give it to Carp, but it would be close.
If the division ends in a tie, I propose we have a cage match between the two to settle it.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
oh god no!!
if they weren’t so thoroughly DL magnets, maybe. but .. just no.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
As long as Carp fights left handed, I think he'd be alright.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 12, 2010 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh man.
I’d be a little afraid of Jon Jay, only because I would bet every single punch he throws lands somehow, no matter how you try to block it.
(We’ll call it batting average on punches in face, and his would have to be unsustainably high.)
That had me laughing.
Luddy just got his 14th homer of the season; Pads lead 3-0
Very deep one. OK, I promise I’ll stop doing this soon.
"Now that's how you talk. You don't talk to the newspapers, you talk to the baseball." -- Shannon
You should go write about your feelings towards Ludwick.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
not in a fanfic.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 12, 2010 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
good news!
i have another class on the books
and almost two weeks before i have to attend another one
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
i wish i knew how to quit you, luddy
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
by prophetjohn on Aug 12, 2010 8:23 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
If you find out, let me know.
"Now that's how you talk. You don't talk to the newspapers, you talk to the baseball." -- Shannon
If it's LLWS time,
It’s time for Dinger Camp.
Pearland has 3 HR, leading 5-1.
That’s 12 HR in 4 games. All of which traveled farther than a Miles flyout.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
saucey
I also want to address this... Hi there... What's your name? My name's Heisenberg. You like Colby HRs, I like Colby HRs. We have that in common. I'm a Gemini. Maybe we should hook up sometime. Looks like you need a towel, here have mine. *SCREAM* Oh sorry, I should have gave you a clean one.
Pearland wins!
Yay for the kids who I share a Houston suburb with.
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
OH MY GOD WHAT WAS THAT?
jprutherford- Bud Norris could get @dgoold and @matthewhleach to stop twittering. #layup
by The Continental on Aug 12, 2010 9:52 PM EDT reply actions
Nothing to see here. And we're walking...
>While Albert Pujols batting, This Signature picked off second. Three out.
Correct me if I'm wrong
but isn’t Monday the deadline to sign our draft picks? Who would we rather have, Cox or Wilson? It seemed like there was a leaning toward Wilson by those posting a few days ago. Is that a VEB-wide consensus?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Aug 13, 2010 1:26 AM EDT reply actions
you are in no need of correction
i would rather have wilson
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
For the sole reason that they'd get a comp pick for Cox and not Wilson
Wilson, really they should just do their best to sign both within reason. Basically every player who signs in the draft is signing below what they are worth, aside from Jeff Samardzija.
I still would expect them to sign Cox and not Wilson……..Wilson must have made it very clear he was going to college otherwise he wouldn’t have fallen so far, I severely doubt anything the Cardinals could have done would really change his mind on this outside of throwing a stoopid amount of money at him. Aside from that, signing Wilson and not Cox would be acting in tremendously bad faith, bad enough that it would certainly stain the organization to the point that it might be more bad than the comp pick is good. They would have absolutely fucked over Zack Cox for a full year, that’s not something agents would forget to mention to other players.
Not afraid to nitpick
If anybody, definately Cox
…but Wilson would be great, and preferred. I just don’t see it happening. Does anybody know if the Jenkins kid is a done deal? is the ink dry yet?
let's go bitches!
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