Westbrook/Ludwick Trade Overflow
by azruavatar on Jul 31, 2010 3:08 PM EDT
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What are you, a sadist?
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
I'm helping a friend move so I won't be in this thread.
Also, I thought we’d clearly established I’m a whore int he other thread.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
You can be both!
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
i for one would welcome our new robot whore/moving service overlords with open arms
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
by gdm426 on Jul 31, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
So are we going to get a decent infielder
that can hit here soon…or are we going to gamble that Freese will come back and be a force and Skippy suddenly starts to get going.
Boy a frosty cold Budweiser would be great about now"…long pause…then an "aahhh". --Mike Shannon
I don't like losing Ludwick
but I think that Westbrook will fit in well. He has pitched decently over the last month against mostly playoff-caliber teams. He’s managed a 4.65 ERA with a bad defensive team, whereas ERA-FIP for the cards is around -0.6. Put that together with a move to the NL central, and he could be a sub 4 ERA pitcher who takes full advantage of a decent defensive team.
Still, it hurts to lose Ludwick. I don’t think this move makes a big difference this year.
you are correct
unless we find a way to score more than 2 or 3 runs a night, it won’t make a difference whether our pitcher gives up 4 or 6
My first memory of Cardinals baseball is seeing Darrell Porter jump into Bruce Sutter's arms on October 20, 1982!
You forget
Jeff Suppan is pitching, we’re guaranteed to be in the game all night, because that’s what he does.
You know what I hate right now about TLR? When Waino got rocked by the Mets in his post-game interview he said something along the lines of “I guarantee you I will be ready my next start and it won’t happen again.” He took responsibility, talked about his mistakes, etc. TLR was just bashing him on how he made mistakes, etc.
Rewind to Jeff Suppan. TLR: Well he gave us a chance to win, and our defense let us down.
Granted, the defense was sucky, but that doesn’t excuse the fact the Jeff Suppan tops out at 86 and has no movement on his fastball, which was the pitch that was crushed each time. Why bash Waino, but praise Suppan?
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Beating a dead horse
Negative comments might inspire AW to improve, might inspire sucky defense to suck it up. Suppan is incapable of sucking it up, so why beat him up anymore? Kind of why a teacher might challenge a kid percentage points from the honor roll more forcefully than the one in remedial classes.
or he's a dick.
"He’s in his own world out there. He says he doesn’t cuss. I disagree." - Skip Schumaker on Jason Motte
STOP TRYING TO TRADE SHELBY MILLER!!
by BVHeck on Jul 31, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yep!
Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.
by Dave Pendleton on Jul 31, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Ludwick is a trending topic on twitter!
We made it!
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
but at what price man? at what price?
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
I don't know why but this made me laugh
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 31, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Nothing like an unexpected trade...
…to bring an old VEB-er out of commenting retirement.
Will miss you, Luddy. Not loving the trade, but if it somehow leads to an Albert extension then I can’t complain.
I’ll be interested to see how many compromises the team has to make in the near future in order to resign Albert. I have a feeling we’re in for a series of stress tests.
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
I don't see how this affects an Albert signing
Luddy’s arb money would not overlap with a Pujols extension
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
Seems like they’re trying to address needs without spending anything, which means giving up Luddy for a less-valuable Westbrook, in the name of addressing needs without adding payroll.
I can see a tie between the two, especially since it was noted that the Cards could be reducing payroll between this move and the missed incentives of Penny, etc. Saving a few million this year and savings Luddy’s arb raise next year could very well be pinching pennies for the Pujols contract. Plus the Cards may restructure the last year of Pujols’ current contract to give him a raise early as part of an extension. Who knows.
I guess my main point is that I have to believe every move from now on has to happen in the shadow of Albert.
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
The shadow of Albert is one thing that infuriates me
If he gives a damn about how the team plays, he should sign something. The mystery of what he will sign for is completely crippling the team going forward. If he agreed to something, even if absurd, then at least the team could budget for it going forward. But no, he refuses to do that.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
MLBTR chat: 3-way deal involving KJ
C’mon Mo. Ger ’er done.
"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning
Anyone know where I can get pitch/fx data from the 2009,2008,2007,... seasons
I am trying to figure out why Westbrook’s fastball sucks this year. Same velocity just is getting different results
tried that
They didn’t have any data on him for 2009. I will check 2008
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
That explains it
Quick looks from 08 vs 10
His Sinker in 08
Velocity 90.7
Vertical 3.84
Horizontal -9.82
2010
Velocity 90.7
Vertical 2.69
Horizontal -9.60
So the pitch isn’t moving as much this year
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Not really
The vertical component means he’s getting more sink, and .2 inches horizontal is basically nothing.
Not afraid to nitpick
I don't understand why we haven't shopped a young reliever to Arizona
as part of a trade for one of their MIF
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
Maybe 15-30 minutes after that for any very last minute deals to bubble up.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
we need a MIF
a bat to help us forget a bout ludriguez and the meme which died too soon
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
AFC becomes the new one IMO
Allen F’ing Craig
by Mulliganstew on Jul 31, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
American Fighting Champion?
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
i'm not going to forget about ludriguez any time soon
i really don’t want them to do anything (else) stupid because they’re rushing
He just did that.
Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.
by Dave Pendleton on Jul 31, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
NYY about to get K. Wood
"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning
and CLE's paying "significant portion of salary" per Fangraphs
"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning
Really New York?
How does New York have any prospects left!?
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
Didn't the Onion do a story
that basically said “Yankees clinch pennant by signing all remaining players”
"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning
okay, so that makes how many deals for the Yankees this deadline?
Berkman, Kearns, Wood, who else?
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
Apparently, as part of the Ted Lilly dead
the Cubs get a pitcher named Brett Wallach.
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
You are missing the point
if Brett Wallach pitches to Brett Wallace, the world might explode.
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
Seems harsh, doesn't it?
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 31, 2010 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
MLB Network talking about Westbrook/Cardinals view of trade now
Their notes cover the basics (but in better depth than ESPN…):
- Rotation needed an arm
- Westbrook’s effectiveness has been on the decline for years
- Dave Duncan might help
- Risky trade w/ no guarantees
- Garcia’s innings running out
- This deal gets done because of Jon Jay
- Allen Craig’s stock on the rise
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
when can Craig return from Memphis?
until then, we could see RF Winn and (gulp!) Skip in the OF
"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning
except vs. LHP :)
"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning
or Tito Landrum.
Cause Van Slyke can’t hit lefties.
Yes I’m old.
St. Louis Blues. St. Louis Cardinals. Denver Broncos. Univ of Denver hockey and lacrosse. Colorado Mammoth and Colorado Outlaws lacrosse.
+++If the Cards trade S. Miller I just might have to become a Rockies fan+++
by HockeyHippie on Jul 31, 2010 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions
why would skip play in the OF?
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
why would westbrook not be starting tonight?
he can’t make it from cleveland to st louis in 6 hours?
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
Toronto
He’s in Toronto. I expect him to be at the game, but not pitching
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
uhh,
they don’t just walk into the clubhouse, suit up, and go pitch.
they do have prep to do.
but, hey, i want to see him pitch just as much as anyone else. Maybe he’ll go in the next day or two and just push the other guys back. who knows?
My first memory of Cardinals baseball is seeing Darrell Porter jump into Bruce Sutter's arms on October 20, 1982!
if we don't get a mif, does this mean we sign those draftees?
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 3:30 PM EDT reply actions
put THAT bat in front of
AP, Holliday, & Raz
Yes.
"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning
Figgins is due for a major craigression.
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
Where are you going to play him?
His glove has sucked at 2B this year. Hell, he’s sucked with the bat, too. Course even with his down year his OBP is still at .338…. compare that to our middle infielders…
Figgins’ defense at 3B was amazing the past few years, but if Freese comes back we already have a solid player there. I guess Figgins’ poor 2B defense doesn’t matter too much at 2B since we already have Skip butchering balls there, and Figgins probably has more upside to do better. He is owed a lot of money, though, so it would probably take a signficant prospect to get Seattle to pay enough of it over the next few years to make a deal work.
ooh yeah, that doesn't sound too good, now that you mention it
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
i know...you already said this up there
by martimeryard on Jul 31, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
well, you're the one who asked for clarifiaction, silly butt
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
Does Figgins clear the waiver wire?
Is he an August target—in case Freese can’t come back?
"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning
Most likely yes
But that’s because he has a big contract and is signed for 3 more years.
Think its 9 million per year for 3 more years?
That’s a pretty big commitment to a guy having a down year when we have Pujols to sign long-term. If Seattle is really willing to give back cash in the deal maybe it can work, but I don’t know what the Cardinals could possibly give in return to make it worthwhile for the M’s.
I love Figgy!
Not sure he would mesh with the TLR M.O. in STL. But I was really bummed when he signed w/SEA. Not a good fit for him. He needs to be a spark plug atop the order, limelighted in an electric city. As much as I can’t stand the Yanks, I think he’d be a great fit there.
14 minutes
DUN DUN DUN
i don’t really think anything else is getting DUN
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
that frustrated, distant sound you hear is me refreshing MLBTradeRumors over and over and over
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
yankees got kerry wood
finally they can stop revelling in mediocrity!
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
And it sounds like the Yanks are giving up a PTBNL or cash.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Finally...
The Chris Perez era begins.
Actually, that didn’t take long at all. And CLE played it just about perfect. Trade for potential CP in 2009. Sign vet CP while prospect proves himself 2010. If all goes well, deal vet mid-season. In rebuilding mode, they could not have scripted it any better.
Last night's losing pitcher for the Pirates is going to San Fran...
Last night’s winning run for the Cardinals is going to San Diego
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
John Denver wrote that.
Just random trivia I thought you might like to know. ;)
I love John Denver
I still laugh my ass off whenever Gilligan’s Island comes on…
"Who is John Gall?"
Maynard Krebs!
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
Well the Luddy trade came out of LF
Maybe another trade will too. I’m being optimistic because I don’t feel like going to the store to buy more alcohol.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't have a drinking problem
….except when I can’t find a drink — Tom Waits
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
well said
from the man that has a song “the piano’s been drinking”
stop the spread of infection...DFA
if you were GDM, wouldn't you drink?
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
10 minutes!
the top top top secret trade for Hanley Ramirez is about pop up on Twitters everywhere
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
....
RT @AndrewDMoses: Stavinoha is available today.
Lineup: Lopez, Jay, Pujols, Holliday, Rasmus, Molina, Schumaker, Suppan, Ryan. #stlcards
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
Time to play MLB 10 The SHOW
Maybe if I pitch with Suppan and not have him suck, it will magically happen in real life.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you enjoying that?
I tried MLB 10 a few times. It was a nightmare. Went back to 09 due to too many bugs. It’s good recreation when I have some spare time. The “create a player” feature is fun. I created “Mudcap McGee” (Willie’s son, according to legend), a dominant lefty on my fave team, the Rockies. Also created Abraham Lincoln and Thomas Jefferson for the Washington Nationals. Abe’s a dominant SP with a great cutter. Thomas Jefferson – a naturalist – plays RF and has a cannon of an arm. Also added yet another Molina brother, “Mateo Molina”, who ended up on Detroit. Of course, I stacked the Cards with ridiculous talent, too. They have “Walker Zombie”, a 6’10" zombified lefty and “Blind Willie” (avid blues guitarist, according to legend) atop their rotation. “Beluga Whale” is a hefty fire-baller in the Cards’ pen and makes Broxton look like a walking stick.
Just popping in to say...
… that I’m with Azru and whoever else thinks this deal is alright. It’s all about relative gains in a pennant race. And I think a lot of people seriously overstate the trade value of an aging, injury-prone, 3.5 WAR RF that is starting to get expensive and understate how difficult it is to get anyone approaching league-average SP. Especially without taking on any salary. Luddy wasn’t going to net anything huge in the trade market in the off-season, or else he would have now.
We probably lose 0.5-1 win dropping off from Luddy to Jay/Craig. It’s possible, if somewhat unlikely, that we don’t lose anything if Jay stays hot, or if Luddy reverts to ’09 form or gets hurt again. We probably gain 2 wins from Suppan to Westbrook. We take on no salary and lose no youth.
I think it’s a marginal win for us, relative to other options. Pads get the best of it, but we can’t worry about that until October.
by kindred on Jul 31, 2010 3:55 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I didn't mind it too much
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Great
And the Jay/Stav/Winn platoon begins
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Why?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 31, 2010 3:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Ted Drewes
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
by TBender on Jul 31, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
ooey gooey butter cake
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
Because
TLR loves veterans so Winn will get more starts than he should. Then, when the lineup doesn’t hit, TLR will shake things up by starting Stav.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Our long national nightmare is over!
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 31, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
you are kidding me!!!
Can this get any worse
"I told myself from the very beginning: 'If he's going to throw a shutout, then he's going to tie,'" Wainwright said. "He was not going to beat me today."
Hardly any rumors on the Twitters
The GMs must be really busy calling each other to wheel and deal.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 31, 2010 3:56 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Is this trade allowed?
Cardinals Trade:
PTBNL
PTBNL
PTBNL
Other team Trade:
PTBNL
PTBNL
PTBNL
Onubon > Gates
Well it could be a nice work around to the deadline.
Gives you an extra few days to work out the details.
Onubon > Gates
checking in....
mixed feelings about this. The addition of Westbrook seems smart; I was kind of down on it a few days ago, but it’s not a bad move. Losing Ludwick hurts; I’m really kind of bummed out about that. The Pads obviously could really use Ludwick.
I’m still a little unclear on how the money all shakes out. I also know nothing at all about Greenwood.
If you step back and look at it, we traded from a strength (outfield) to shore up a weakness (rotation). Ludwick’s injury history and streakiness, combined w/ pressure from cost-controlled Jay & Craig, made this possible.
Just watch a couple of Ludwick walkoff shots on Youtube
Man, I’m getting sad. If the birds don’t make the playoffs or get knocked out, I’m going to root for the Padres this October.
by cloistermaximus on Jul 31, 2010 4:02 PM EDT reply actions
MLB Network
seemed to think an arbitration offer would be smart- need some veteran leadership with the young bats
...
RT @AndrewDMoses Westbrook will start Monday. #stlcards
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
...
RT @jaysonst #Pirates traded Octavio Dotel & $500,000 to #Dodgers minutes before deadline, for James McDonald & OF Andrew Lambo. #trades
Seems like a good trade for the Pirates
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
For once...
The Pirates appear to have made a deal that makes sense. Good for them. About time!
wow, they've been busy
My first memory of Cardinals baseball is seeing Darrell Porter jump into Bruce Sutter's arms on October 20, 1982!
Now we're going to face him in the playoffs and he'll bat for the Cykiel against us
Wait…
by Mulliganstew on Jul 31, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
...
RT @ed_price Royals get P Jesse Chavez, OF Gregor Blanco and P Tim Collins from #Braves for Farnsworth and Ankiel as CBSSports.com reported.
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
Yeah seems like a pretty good haul for the Royals
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
Poor Jesse Chavez.
That guy has been traded 3-4 times since last offseason. Nobody likes him apparently.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
i was extremely surprised
i wanted him to do well for KC, but i can’t stand rooting for anyone on the braves…
Proud to be a member of The Night of the Longest Train Wreck Ever (9/10/09)
Miklasz
Westbrook will start Monday vs. Hou. Hawksworth mives to bullpen. Stavinoha callled up from Memphis
Onubon > Gates
So Suppan will still start while Hawksworth mives to the pen.
Any more mives to report?
Onubon > Gates
Goold seems to think
if another trade is announced it will be from the bullpen.
this thread is all Aaron Mile's fault.
Re: Stav
Fuck.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Only till Craig can come up... only till Craig
by Mulliganstew on Jul 31, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
you're right
and im not a stav hater either
by guillermozeliak on Jul 31, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
So who is going down for Stav?
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
Jay
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
by TBender on Jul 31, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thats not even funny.
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
You shut your face.
You shut it right now.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
So im going tuesday…..so I guess I get jaime instead of hawk…..nicr
by mick311 on Jul 31, 2010 4:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
is he that good?
When a reporter asked Gaylord Perry's 5-year-old daughter if her father threw a spitball, she replied, "It's a hard slider."
by FredbirdisaDork on Jul 31, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Bernie:
La Russa said given a choice a productive OF and a quality starter, he wanted the starter. Said it was “critical” to add a starter.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 4:15 PM EDT reply actions
Considering how much unwarranted pine-time Luddy received...
My guess would be “Yes.” That’s probably what prompted the word “critical”. ;)
more...
I mentioned my concerns about taking a good bat out of a struggling offense. TLR: “We struggled with Luddy at times, too.”
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
wtf kind of answer is that
struggled with apu and holliday in the line-up too
so ????
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
It's the kind of empty answer you give to help justify a recent trade.
Managers have pre-programmed responses too.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
that is true
and we did win 9 games in a row with Luddy on the DL…
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
TLR needs to start taking his own advice & start watching the damn games
they needed more offense, not less
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
but given the chance to start the better pitcher, he still keeps Soup in the rotation
i don’t know how in the holy hell they can honestly think, let alone spin it to the fans taht Stav & Soup make the Cards better than Luddy & Bubbles will in October. dumb f’in moves today, really dumb f’ing moves
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
see below
re: Miklasz saying Lohse’s return moves Soup out of the rotation (after Westbrook moves Hawk to the pen).
When (if?) Lohse comes back, I guess they might send Hawk down and move Soup to the pen, but I don’t see Soup having a hell of a lot of value out of the bullpen. I’m hoping this means Soup’s days are numbered….
wth is miklaz saying i thought lohse was 3 rehabs starts away from even coming back
by guillermozeliak on Jul 31, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
he is, sorry if I wasn't clear
I think Lohse has completed one, he’s got one tonight, and then I think he’ll have one more.
2nd rehab start tonight, yes.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't see Soup having any value anywhere - except in today['s game at bat. .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
astros working on multi-year deal for myers
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/astros-close-to-multiyear-deal-with-brett-myers.html
lol?
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
why would myers want to sign long term with asstros?
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
the Astros apparently are willing to buy high
My first memory of Cardinals baseball is seeing Darrell Porter jump into Bruce Sutter's arms on October 20, 1982!
i didn't say it was smart ;)
My first memory of Cardinals baseball is seeing Darrell Porter jump into Bruce Sutter's arms on October 20, 1982!
Ed Wade
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 31, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Reality check
even if we did/do add a MIF who can hit, it won’t necessarily fix the offense. Lot’s of guys need to pick up their level of play in order for the offense to correct.
People need to get healthy and we seem to either need better plate discipline or a better game plan against the opponents’ pitchers or we aren’t going to be any better off anyway.
My first memory of Cardinals baseball is seeing Darrell Porter jump into Bruce Sutter's arms on October 20, 1982!
miklasz
La Russa strongly hinted that it would have been tough to have Ludwick’s salary on 2011 roster given the need to extend Pujols.
Evilfrog...
Just do what I do: Treat LaRussa quotes as pure entertainment. They are much more digestible that way.
Crazy freaking day
Berkman and Kerry Wood are Yankees. Lilly and Theriot are Dodgers. DeWitt is a freakin’ Cub. Ankiel is a Brave.
And of course our little Tradedwick situation.
Ankiel to the Braves??? Really? I must of missed that.
For who?
by mick311 on Jul 31, 2010 4:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
a 20 year old LHP with a K/9 of 15+ at AA
But corner outfielders have no trade value. We established that in the other thread.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
just looked up Farnsworth's stats
he’s having a career year, looks like. For some reason I thought he had been terrible this year.
What are the chances that Lohse pitches well tonight
And replaces Suppan by his next start after tonight.
Onubon > Gates
probably not that great
i imagine he gets another rehab after tonight
maybe suppan will be terrible enough to force lohse back, though
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
Goold just tweeted
that with Lohse and Suppan starting on the same day, the Cards are flexible and that Suppan’s next start is up in the air.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 31, 2010 4:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
a believer eh? well then i've got a killer deal on a nice, slightly used bridge in the NYC area
you’d be a fool to pass this deal up, i’m nearly giving it away! i’m losing money!
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
dude
the Westbook trade sends Hawk to the pen.
Lohse’s days line up with Suppan’s. When Lohse comes back, Soup is booted out of the rotation.
The question is, where does he go? Does he go to the pen? Doubtful, because he can’t strike anybody out. Besides, that would bump somebody else out who has more talent than Soup. I think Lohse makes Soup expendable.
DFA!!!!!! DFA!!!! DFA!!
and bring Aaron Miles with him
Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 31, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
OK, seriously
I am all right with this trade. Sad to see Luddy go, but I was prepared for it.
What would really piss me off would be keeping Suppan in the rotation past tonight. If he stays in the rotation for reasons other than Westbrook couldn’t pitch and we had no other choice, then that’s just stupid. Hawksworth has simply been better than Suppan at starting games for us. I really hope Lohse comes back, we DFA Suppan and say thanks for all the memories.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I can't believe they're gonna put Hawk back in the pen
and keep Soup in the rotation. That’s maddening.
i can believe it
i just wonder who gets sent down
the only guys with options remaining are integral parts of the pen
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
you beat me too it matty
i was thinking the same thing…
another point i made earlier in the first thread was that i was hoping the pads could have thrown in a relief guy…so we could keep hawks and throw suppan in the mississippi…or am i crazy>?
o and i really wish westbrook could have pitched tonight
by guillermozeliak on Jul 31, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
miklasz
Could Cards make a better trade for Ludwick this winter? La Russa: “We have a chance to win now. Winter is too far away.”
Onubon > Gates
old person talk
improving every fifth day
losing offense everyday
does not seem like a win now formula to me
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
That's such a BS answer
We have plenty of prospects of Kluber’s level. The Indians gave up cash and Westbrook for just that one guy, so we most likely could have done the same deal if we had wanted to.
who is our 24yo starting pitching prospect leading Double AA in strikeouts?
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
isn't he injured?
scotty’s fastball cracks what, 88? I won’t hold my breath expecting success out of a short, RH, change up specialist.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
gorgen might scrape 90, and sits in the 87 range.
the guy is PJ Walters-redux.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s POSSIBLE that the Indians like Kluber so much that we couldn’t have gotten something done, but even if we don’t have an exact match a deal with two prospects or a different type of guy should still have been able to get something done, you would think.
you might think we could have gotten this deal done without Kluber
but the fact that San Diego was even involved in this trade would be the strongest evidence that there was not a fit with just Cards prospects.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
F L A G G E D
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
In a 8-5 loss
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
who cares?
Guy was just a minor league player for 1 year with the Cardinals. I don’t understand the attachment.
this thread is all Aaron Mile's fault.
Especially since he obviously didn't have the chops to play anywhere but first.
by Mulliganstew on Jul 31, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
you're overhyped to the extreme
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
CRACKLE!
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
when was the last time we had that kind of potential from the get-to
by martimeryard on Jul 31, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
so, in westbrook's first start,
he will face brett wallace
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
Coincidence?
I THINK NOT.
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
I think Miklasz is reading this thread
miklasz
Don’t understand the freak-out over Suppan/Hawksworth. Lohse is going to be the 5th starter and soon.
Onubon > Gates
Hi, guy in the press box!
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
hmm
well, that assumes that Lohse will return and be effective (which does seem plausible). But it would also imply that perhaps the reason they’re moving Hawk to the pen is b/c they’re going to DFA Soup when Lohse comes back?
/wishful thinking
i was thinking this too
last year Hawk was effective out of the pen. He’s done ok for us starting, and still has some value in the pen. Sup has no value anywhere. Start him vs Pit, see how Lohse does tonight, and then hopefully DFA Sup to call up Lohse. They are perfectly set up for that in terms of pitching days.
Soup's only possible value
is innings-eating. If he gets pushed out of the rotation, he just flat out doesn’t have the stuff pitch out of the pen. The only thing he had going for him is stamina (relative to 1-inning relievers, anyway). We don’t need a Brad Thompson-type iffy long man, so I think a healthy Lohse forces Soup off the team altogether.
From FESPN twitter feed thing
[Comment From ADam ADam : ]
Cards didnt go after a middle-infielder?
Chris Sprow:
They did (and deals still being announced for a while here). But, in cases of guys like Stephen Drew, price was astronomical.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 4:29 PM EDT reply actions
So, I've been gone all day
Can someone fill me on what exactly happen, who we traded and who we got.
traded luddy to padres
got nicholas greenwood from padres
got westbrook and cash from indians
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
So is Greenwood a prospect in any way? Is he at least a starter?
by vivaelpujols on Jul 31, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
C prospect
left handed starter in A ball
My first memory of Cardinals baseball is seeing Darrell Porter jump into Bruce Sutter's arms on October 20, 1982!
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
not really and yes
LHP with a 3.30-ish FIP in low A
had a very good campaign last year. did not make top-30 BA prospects for padres
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
or maybe it was top-15
i dunno. he seems decent, but by no means a top prospect. assigned to QC
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
very funny
My first memory of Cardinals baseball is seeing Darrell Porter jump into Bruce Sutter's arms on October 20, 1982!
Well...
One side: Ludwick for a pile of magic beans
Other side: Ludwick for Westbrook and Nick Greenwood (A ball pitcher)
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
he asked for what was traded, not what's in your mouth
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
by gdm426 on Jul 31, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
we're about a half a win in the black
probably should have gotten more for luddy
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
That's what I think
We should have traded him in the offseason.
Couldn’t we have gotten westbrook for a bag of balls?
by vivaelpujols on Jul 31, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
The deal is money neutral since we got cash back from the Indians.
So basically…
Ryan Ludwick
for
Jake Westbrook
Nick Greenwood
Considering Greenwood isn’t much of a prospect, although he has potential to return to form, it’s basically Ludwick and Westbrook. Ludwick provides more WAR for this year and we have team control next year, and he will likely be a Type A or Type B after next year, so I don’t see how we couldn’t have gotten more value for him.
especially when you look at what the braves paid for Ankiel
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
no way to really tell now
Rolen was a great trade at first and because just an average trade when Glaus went down last year.
DeRosa was an alright trade until he got hurt two days later
The K. Greene trade was okay until it turned out he was crazy and our PTBNL turned out to be an excellent relief pitcher.
The Holliday trade was horrible until it Walrus continued to Struggle in AAA being traded two more times in the next year.
Trades really can only be judge in hindsight.
But I love Ludwick. So this shit sucks ass.
this thread is all Aaron Mile's fault.
Where would he have played haha
RT @alysonfooter Lance said he would have probably accepted trade to Texas and St. Louis. Would have thought about Tampa and San Diego.
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
Pretty funny
That a lot of the top Astros players would’ve liked to play for their in-division rivals. Oswalt, Berkman… Sounds like some NL Central envy to play for the birds on the bat.
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
So......anyone heard anything at all about Penny??
Is there any chancr at all he comes back this year? I would be intereted to see the cards try him in the bullpen late in the year or playoffs if he comes back
by mick311 on Jul 31, 2010 4:36 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
The last I heard was an optimistic projection that he'd be back by Sept. Maybe.
I’m assuming he’s done until he starts a rehab assignment at least.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Espn News
Keeps talking like we didn’t need a starter.
“St. Louis Cardinals rotation gets a nice boost, as if it needed any help.”
Onubon > Gates
As if they watch any games in the midwest anyway
They probably think Lohse and Penny are still starting
Play ball!
by IL and StL Fan on Jul 31, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, it's a reference to the fact that
we’re 2nd in the majors in ERA.
Am I the only one that is really pissed this trade didnt go down weeks ago?
Or am I wrong for feeling that way. I mean if we were gonna give up someone like Luddy anyway couldnt we have done it sooner? The trade would have had so much more value for us if we could have gotten 2,3 even 4 starts of westbrook instead of suppan or hawk.
by mick311 on Jul 31, 2010 4:41 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Yes
Luddy was on the DL and couldn’t be traded except as a PTBNL. Also, I am glad that we exercised due diligence on Oswalt.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 31, 2010 4:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
didn't someone say the Cardinals have traded for a Middle infielder
but the deal hasn’t been announced. I thought I read that here…
this thread is all Aaron Mile's fault.
if anything it will be a middle reliever
by martimeryard on Jul 31, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
No it said that they pursued a MI and there were still some announcements to be made
by mick311 on Jul 31, 2010 4:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
...
RT @Ken_Rosenthal #RedSox get Saltalamacchia #MLB
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
Can he throw the ball back to the pitcher yet?
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
could someone please announce already
if we did sth else or if we’re done
not like i don’t have anything else to do today…
I actually like this trade a lot at first glance'
The upgrade from Westbrook over Suppan/Hawk is bigger than the downgrade from Ludwick to Jay/Craig – and we get cash and an ok prospect. Plus this gives Rasmus more playing time and forces Tony to play the young guys.
I just thought we would have been able to get more for Ludwick.
I hate to say it but I don't think it means more PT for Raz
im not even so sure Craig gets called up soon…hawk and soup are still gonna be om the roster and you know Tony will want Stav back…
I think we are going to see more Winn and Stav unfortunately.
Im coming around to the trade a little bit, but there is more to it than Westbrooks upgrade over Hawk vs. downgrade of Luddy to Jay…..because this leaves us with an awful bench.
by mick311 on Jul 31, 2010 4:51 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Goold-
Craig will come up when eligible. #stlcards
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
someone said he cant be called up till wed
cause of the 15 or 10 day rule of being sent down…hence stavinoa being sent
by guillermozeliak on Jul 31, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Right
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
And who the fuck else is gonna play center? Stav?
You think Tony is going to start Stav and Winn ahead of Rasmus.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 31, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
he already has,,,,
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
No but vs. leftys lately Jay has started over Raz in CF.
I doubt TLR will start jay n raz both vs leftys so if he keeps goim with Jat over Raz in those situations it opens up PT for winn or stav, or hopefully Craig if he is coming back up
by mick311 on Jul 31, 2010 4:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It had damn well better be Craig.
If Stav starts any more games than is absolutely necessary, I may have to torch something.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 31, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
why do people say vs lefties
rasmus started twice against santana…who is no slouch
by guillermozeliak on Jul 31, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Rasmus does start against lefties
but most if not all of his off days come against lefties.
this thread is all Aaron Mile's fault.
it's because he's a changeup guy more than a slider guy
that’s one thing i wish people would pay more attention to here – not all lefties are loogies (i.e. especially tough on lefty batters).
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
i agree
i think vs starting pitching (unless its randy johsnson) vs relievers its a big difference
i just remember tlr was trigger happy in pinch hitting every possible time in the playoffs for rasmus when he was seeing the ball very well even if was a reliever, i think if ur seeing the ball well u should let him bat
by guillermozeliak on Jul 31, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
it's a good trade
it sucks to lose Ludwick. I agree that it seems we sold a little low on him. The cash situation is a little complex but I think that had something to do with it; it doesn’t look like we’ll have to pick up Westbrook’s $2M bonus for being traded.
good summation of the clusterfuck that was thread #1
i wouldve liked for more $ and a mid reliever to keep hawks in the rotation…pads gave up virtually nothing on their part of the deal
the “ok prospect” is a non prospect according to a padres scout..so thats a lil disappointing..but u never know
by guillermozeliak on Jul 31, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that is my biggest beef with the trade
I just thought we could get more for Luddy. It is putting a lot of faith in these young guys to step up and take their spot. I think Westbrook will actually be pretty good here. He is coming from a horrible defensive team and hasn’t seen a drop in velocity. He just went 8IP against the Yankee’s on his last start.
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
that's encouraging
I think Mo/TLR view Craig as the backup to Jay; if Jay struggles, Craig takes his place.
The fact that you thought that we could get more for Ludwick doesn't mean that we actually could of.
Basically that argument rests on the front office being lazy and not doing their due diligence on Ludwick. I have a hard time accepting this argument at face value.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
that's a fairly soonerfan-ian argument
“We have to trust the front office”…
By that standard, no team every makes a bad trade.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
So claiming the front office is competent is a bad argument?
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
Using it as a trump card is, definitely.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
I haven't used it as a trump card all day.
I’ve laid out the rational explanation for why it’s a good trade. The best anyone else can come up with is that “It feels like we didn’t get enough for Ryan Ludwick.” Frankly, that’s a bullshit argument. How can I argue against what people think the market SHOULD have given us. Show me the trade today where another team landed a player like Ludwick and got more than us. It didn’t happen.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
There was no one else as valuable as Ludwick available.
Taking salary, position, and club control into account, Luddy should have been at least as valuable as Bay was last year, and close to as valuable as Berkman was this year.
The White Sox apparently offered a better package for berkman than the Yankees did (since Houston’s front office preferred the CHW offer, and we’re trusting front offices to do their due diligence), and berkman declined it. Stands to reason there was at least one team with prospects to burn that could have netted us something to help in 2011 and 2012 as well as just 2010.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
you have a very weak argument
yes, you rationalized why it’s a good trade, but it was not.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Considering they know their finances and what they can and can't afford.
I don’t know why you object to using the FO as a point of argument.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
fine. It was a good trade, or else they wouldn't have made it.
shakes head sadly.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
Point is, there is clearly something else in the background we don't know about,
whether there are finances involved or not. Something here is missing, and I don’t think that trusting the FO is a bad thing at the moment.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
Yeah, I don't really buy that
We can do pretty well at quantifying the value of players and the marginal value of wins and contracts. I doubt anything the front office has in place is much better.
Players of Ludwick’s caliber have and should be traded for more than mid 30’s starter having a below average season a year removed from TJ surgery. Those are the kinds of players you get on Waivers. The meh prospect and the cash helps a bit, but this is clearly an underwhelming return for Ludwick.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 31, 2010 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions
That's fine, I don't disagree with you.
The return was underwhelming, but perhaps there was some sort of financial pressure, just to name an example, that we don’t know about. You can quantify that it was a bad return, but teams in a bad financial spot deal underwhelming returns for expensive (Or soon to be expensive) players. Haren and Berkman come to mind.
The value of Ryan Ludwick is not what I am arguing here, I am arguing that the FO is well aware of Ludwick’s value, and traded him anyway for reasons unknown to us.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
I seriously don't see any way that this trade makes sense for us
I could understand if this hinged on some controversial player valuation issue or something that could give the front office some sort of leeway, but that isn’t the case here.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 1, 2010 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
we are broke
that’s the only sense to be made of this. thus, we are sellers, and could well lose the division over this nonsense.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I don't see how this costs us wins this year
We are probably better off with Westbrook than Ludwick. My problem with the trade is that we just got jack shit for a valuable asset.
I thought we were big on prospects here
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions
this move was
not just made for this season, it was done for future…I hate that westbrook is a rental and hate to lose luddy…but i hope we see allen craig, but stav is back so ick..
This guys so good(Pujols) He should be illegal-Pirates announcers
Ned Flanders, you're on the clock
Buster- Confirmed: The Royals have given Manager Ned Yost an extension through 2012.#trades [via Twitter]
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 4:48 PM EDT reply actions
Goold-
Mozeliak: “Can’t hope to get better, you have to do something to change.” Felt jolt needed or he “couldn’t envision us winning.” #stlcards
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 4:49 PM EDT reply actions
Does this make it sound like Luddy was a problem?
He was pretty jolting last night and with RISP…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 31, 2010 4:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Mo has talked in the past about clubhouse chemistry type stuff.
I’ve never, ever heard Luddy described as bad in the clubhouse. We aren’t there, though. No idea.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Feldman just stated today
that Ludwick was the second best like player behind Schumaker.
this thread is all Aaron Mile's fault.
In what context?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 31, 2010 4:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That makes sense to me.
Which is why Mo’s statement confused me.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 31, 2010 5:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He's always seemed that way to me.
But we only get what they show the media. I still assume that he’s a generally good, likeable guy.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course they are
after a trade these players are always either the most hated or the most loved clubhouse player. It’s newspaper bullshit.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
no
just that the team needed a jolt/change, not that luddy was a clubhouse problem.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
JP Retardo just said he's put Jaime in the pen w/ Westbrook in the rotation
HFS®
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
To limit his innings, maybe?
Better ways to do that then exile him to the pen, though.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
He said he'd do that in the playoffs.
Which makes that more reasonable, but I still wouldn’t.
Onubon > Gates
no it doesn't
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
Yes it does.
You made it sound like he’d move Garcia to the pen now, which is way more unreasonable than in the playoffs
Onubon > Gates
Doing so in the playoofs would not be more reasonable.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 31, 2010 5:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I never said it would be reasonable
But it would definitely be more reasonable than doing it now and having a rotation of Waino, Carp, Westbrook, Hawksworth, and Suppan. It would definitely be more reasonable when you only need 3 starters.
Onubon > Gates
This is why he's not in a front office.
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
who's twiiter is this
sorry…im not familiar
by guillermozeliak on Jul 31, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
JP Ricciardi, probably via ESPN
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
ank to the braves...
interesting move. braves in a former cards race too? (glaus, thurston)
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
I lmostly like it
I think Jay has a better bat than Luddy. Luddy had too many, “Don’t try this at home,” aspects to his swing. I think Jay’s swing is superior, and I think trading Jay for Ludwick is an upgrade.
I kinda like Westbrook, but I see some timing stuff that makes me nervous.
Bottom line is that Jay over Luddy is an upgrade and anything from Westbrook is a bonus.
Jay is absolutely not a better bat than Ludwick, that's ridickulous
by vivaelpujols on Jul 31, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
He's got a better swing
I think he’ll be an upgrade at lower cost.
I think Luddy is regressing to the mean.
right now, this season Luddy is better, Jay will probably be better in the future,
but no one really knows what the future holds, i hope MO’s gamble pays off, but i’m not optimistic
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
Oliver projects Ludwick for a .352 wOBA and Jay for a .306 wOBA
http://www.hardballtimes.com/forecasts/players/jay—-001jon
I don’t give a damn if Jay has a better swing, Ludwick has a long history of well above average performance at the major league level, while Jay, up until this season, has been replacement level (using MLEs).
by vivaelpujols on Jul 31, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
.306 seems light to me.
Also, Jay has been recovering from a shoulder injury over the last two years so there’s reason to think he’s better than his MLEs.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
Yeah, but not nearly as good as Ludwick
Jay is a little better than average going forward IMO, while Ludwick is a ~.360 wOBA guy.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 31, 2010 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions
All Ludwick has ever done with that swing is hit.
He has more power. I don’t see Jay posting an OPS over .800 over a full season. We might get lucky and have him hang on for an OPS over .800 this season. But knowing we shipped Ludwick out to have Jay replace him is going to make watching Jay’s luck even out exponentially more brutal as fans.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 31, 2010 5:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
i've been gone for a bit
cards didn’t trade for anyone other than westbrook, i take it?
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
Lebron James & Barrett Farva
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
"He's the straw that makes the drink go."
by Thelonious Dunk on Jul 31, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Wocka wocka.
"He's the straw that makes the drink go."
by Thelonious Dunk on Jul 31, 2010 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
'Wanna hear a funny ass joke?'
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
You really want to get cut, don't you?
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 31, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
He's a versatile All-Star!
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
I expect Jocketty to be all over the waiver wire
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh yeah and I thought everyone here was saying the Reds were going to get Cliff Lee and make all these great trades
They got jack shit.
Ironic, Jocketty has a competitive team in a tight race.
and does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to improve the team. Weird.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
harang and bailey are back soon
volquez is already back, and chapman could help the pen. all they really need is a better ss, but those are hard to find.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
chapman isnt even helping the AAA pen so i wouldnt be all that worried about that
im guessing the reds are on a tighter budget than the cards are and this kept walt from doing his thing more than anything else.
no, i believe the reds have more to spend than us
after all, we sold ludwick and i don’t see them selling rolen. but walt wasn’t going to get fleeced for a ss, which is their only area to upgrade.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Lol at Chapman, the guys walking over 5 batters per 9 in AAA - he's nowhere near ready for the pen
And Harang and Bailey are essentially equivalent to Lohse and Ottavino – nothing worth hanging your hat over.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 31, 2010 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
yes, and they will be in the pen
that’s a pretty good luxury. and harang can take some leake starts, give him a break – who is doing that for garcia? you may say lohse is nothing to hang your hat on, but it sounds like everyone here can’t wait till he’s back. and chapman’s walk numbers are as a starter. it’s a little different in relief.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Yea, a better SS is real tough for the Reds to find
It’s not like they have a guy in AAA just sitting there with a great glove and 15HR and 25SB on the season with a .779 OPS or anything. Nope, the Reds don’t have anyone in the organization better than crappy Orlando Cabrera.
no, they don't
but if they had drew, that is one great infield. votto is arguably the nl mvp this year, and rolen is great, and phillips having another all-star year. of course cabrera we would love to have, but cincy not so much.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Interesting
Derrick Goold
Mozeliak confirms earlier tweet about this being a cash-neutral deal. Still room to add via waiver trade market. #stlcards
Time to do work, Mo.
Redeem thyself!
"He's the straw that makes the drink go."
by Thelonious Dunk on Jul 31, 2010 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
when does the waiver period begin Monday?
and any list of names?
This guys so good(Pujols) He should be illegal-Pirates announcers
Great.
I wonder if a .800+ OPS bat will be available.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 31, 2010 5:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Allen Criag is on line 1 for you....
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Tell him to call back when the organization promotes him and plays him regularly
while he also gives us above average RF defense.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 31, 2010 5:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
BJ Rains says on the radio Carp and Waino were very upset over Ludwick
by mick311 on Jul 31, 2010 5:05 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Which prompts the question:
What will this move do to clubhouse morale?
Of course Carp is upset
Who will he luggage now? I think Boog better watch out.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Besides Stav coming off the DL, obviously.
by Ghostrider520 on Jul 31, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Rasmus is going to continue his
awesome month/suck ass month/awesome month/suck ass month pattern.
he sucked in July. So he is due for another 1.100 + OPS.
this thread is all Aaron Mile's fault.
So a player who accounted for 13% of the Cardinals RBIs last year
and 10% this year (playing in only 77 games, mind you) just lifts out?
by Ghostrider520 on Jul 31, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Hitting behind Pujols will get you RBIs.
He does well with RISP, but let’s not point to RBI totals as indicative of his individual offensive talent.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 31, 2010 5:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm not saying Ludwick is/was a top tier offensive player...
but he drove in runs. The average was meh, but he showed a knack for hitting with guys on base. I don’t see Jay as a run producer.
by Ghostrider520 on Jul 31, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
He was a top tier offensive player,
but RBI isn’t the best evidence of this fact.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 31, 2010 5:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
the problem is that the cardinals are gonna do it all wrong
ideally, this trade improves our team if we keep Hawk in rotation, DFA Suppan, bring up Allen Craig on Wed (DFAing Randy Winn), DFA Aaron Miles when David Freese comes back
but they’re gonna send down Tyler Greene, do a platoon with Stavinoha and Jay (btw this isn’t even TLR, i just don’t see Mo sending down Stav when Craig is ready – he hasn’t done it before), and start Suppan until Lohse comes back (Suppan of the 6.18 FIP that is)
Lohse better come back soon or I’m gonna be pissed that Suppan and his 6.18 FIP is gonna be starter every 5th day while Hawk is pretty much the definition of replacement level
i don’t mind the trade but i know in the next two months the moves the FO will make are gonna piss me off…. actually right now im not expecting craig to be up because best case scenario i am pleasantly surprised and worst case scenario they rely on Craig (in which case its Mo’s fault)
Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog
whose going down
this makes me feel A LOT better about the trade
Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 31, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
i would hope we just DFA miles...
either Winn, Stavinoha, or miles would be out a spot. Unless there is another trade
this thread is all Aaron Mile's fault.
and on that day i will lose it
Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 31, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope it is one of those three.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 31, 2010 5:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
i couldnt agree more
they are going to do it all wrong which is why we should manage during pre-lohse tenure
by guillermozeliak on Jul 31, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
BJ also says this is probably Suppans last start...
If lohse comes back Suppans gone…
Hooray!
by mick311 on Jul 31, 2010 5:08 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
They're on the same pitching schedule
No pressure, Soup.
Guys like Bradley are exactly why we can't have a pumpkin patch anymore.
in order to make a trade after the deadline...
do both players have to pass waivers?
this thread is all Aaron Mile's fault.
minor leaguers don't
but MLB players do.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
Who would be available MI that would clear waivers though??
by mick311 on Jul 31, 2010 5:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Historically guys no one wants because of marginal talent
or guys no one wants because their salaries are too huge to absorb.
by Ghostrider520 on Jul 31, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
like Larry Walker.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
well played.
Scotty thanks you for your assistance.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
yea im watchin right now...hopefully rolen votto just cool off
phillips makes plays terrible defense and cueto is terrible from here on out…we win by 10 games in the central oKAY?
by guillermozeliak on Jul 31, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Like I said above...what player or combination of players is/are going to step up and drive in runs?
Ludwick accounted for 13% of the Cardinals runs batted in last year and 10% this year, pre-trade.
No one in our current lineup has shown they can drive in runs besides Pujols, Holliday, and Colby (every other month).
I'd agree with you if Freese hits like he did before he forgot how to round a base
and before he lifted weights without a spotter.
:)
by Ghostrider520 on Jul 31, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
i know
i was talkin to my brother and i was like wth is freese i thought he tweaked his ankle
and he said “oh he dropped a 45 on his toe and broke it”…im like dude what an idiot
sorta freakish like prados injury yesterday…i feel for him b/c i think its his throwing hand that the pinky is injured
by guillermozeliak on Jul 31, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
RBIs?
meh….
Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 31, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
RBI's are not indicative of a player's talent...
See Franceour, Jeff
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
using simple WAR anyalsis
I’m going to theoretically replace Suppan with Westbrook because that’s whose spot he’s apparantly taking (since they think Suppan is ahead of Hawk – w/o Westbrook, he’d be 5th starter)
Suppan has started 7 games and been worth -0.4 WAR to us…. no reason to think he won’t keep up this pace…. if he were to be on rotation for rest of year, he’d get 11 starts… simply figuring out the negative WAR per game, over 11 starts he’d be worth -0.6 WAR…
Westbrook has been worth 1 WAR over 4 months… no reason to think that will change…. if he keeps up the pace he’s worth 0.5 WAR to us…..
-0.6 WAR + 0.5 WAR = 1.1 win upgrade….. Ludwick FWIW is worth 1.3 WAR over the next two months at his pace…. maybe its unfair to say that Ludwick will do this but his defense can go nowhere but done and he is injury prone
so this move costs us -0.2 WAR, but Westbrook also could improve enough to make up the difference and then some under Dave Duncan’s tutelage (high GB rate, etc.)
Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog
I would venture to guess that Westbrook will improve based on the lineups he will be facing.
Pirates, Astros, Cubs instead of Twins, White Sox, Tigers…etc.
by Ghostrider520 on Jul 31, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
you have to compare the marginal difference between Ludwick and his replacements too....
a Jay/Craig platoon is better than replacement-level.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
this is great, but incomplete
now add in the value of the extra playing time going to Jay and Craig.
how do i do jay though?
no way he’s gonna do what he’s done….
Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 31, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
zips rest of season?
or, you could just assume that a Jay/Craig platoon would be avg. better than assuming they’ll be replacement level.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
what's the WAR for average baseball players?
that seems like the best method
Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 31, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
i believe 2 WAR per year is avg.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
that would be 0.6 WAR then
if they were average which is definitely possible considering jay’s defense will help ease the decline of his hot bat and craig is due for regression – craigression in other words
Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 31, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
and also
recall that Westbrook is going AL to NL, going to a pitcher friendly park, and getting better D behind him. (Not to mention he’ll get to pitch to Yadi Molina.) .5 WAR may be an underestimate for Westbrook.
Fangraphs’ WAR (fWAR) is based on FIP, or K/BB/HR.
AL → NL definitely helps FIP.
Parks don’t.
Defense doesn’t.
Catching might.
Why in the hell is there so much Rams spam in my SBN StL twit feed?
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 5:34 PM EDT reply actions
That would 'splain it.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Braves demoted McLouth a few days ago
who was hitting worse than Ryan. I can see why they would think Ankiel would be an upgrade.
this thread is all Aaron Mile's fault.
why would myers want to sign long term with asstros?he had options?
struggled with apu and holliday in the line-up too
so ????
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
good news for the braves....
They’ll have Ankiel there tomorrow.
this thread is all Aaron Mile's fault.
thought Braves were looking for relievers
besides Farnsworth
"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning
things quickly change in an hour
from down 2-0 to up 5-2. f’n reds
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
he woulda scored anyway
but def freakish
by guillermozeliak on Jul 31, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions
What happened?
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
hannigan inside the parker on a double./triple
cabreras throw slipped out of his hand
next guy singled anyway
by guillermozeliak on Jul 31, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
did anyone hear thom brennaman
say if there was a gold glove for just RF jay bruce would be a runaway for getting it?
by guillermozeliak on Jul 31, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
That would be
If there was a GOLD GLOVE for JUST RF, JAY BRUCE would be a RUNAWAY for getting it.
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
no
upton and ludwick finishing the season would not be a runaway
by guillermozeliak on Jul 31, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
slightly OT
i first discovered ludwick playing for the toledo mud hens back in 2006, the last year that my church went to a mud hens game. when the cards got him in 2007, i remembered him from his walk-up song, brass monkey. that’s also how i first discovered the song.
i just played a game against the padres on mlb 10 the show and beat them 5-4 in 13. lud went 3 for 6.
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
i guess my reaction to this trade is that there is something we don't know going on
Ludwick was Mozeliak’s guy. All we heard about was that Mo spotted him and was the driving force behind the Cardinals signing him back in 2006. I still believe that we have a competent front office and that there is something else that is going to happen.
When a reporter asked Gaylord Perry's 5-year-old daughter if her father threw a spitball, she replied, "It's a hard slider."
by FredbirdisaDork on Jul 31, 2010 6:27 PM EDT reply actions
even though it was a bad trade
it improved our team for the good – that to me says they are competent
Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 31, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
6:05 according to memphis redbirds site
btw promising news about Lohse that I didn’t see – link
Kyle Lohse (forearm) told St. Louis’ KFNS 590 on Tuesday that he may return to the Cardinals’ rotation after one more rehab start.
Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 31, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
So where does VEB stand on John Mozeliak at this point?
Personally, I’ve lost faith. I never get the feeling that we are going to win a trade or make a slam dunk signing.
The Lohse signing was disappointing, especially because I was praying that Lohse would be dealt at the deadline.
The Holliday trade looked pretty bad at the time but worked out okay.
I was mildly in favor of the Holliday signing but it was by no means a win in Mo’s book.
Felipe Lopez was great but I get the impression that that came more as a result of Felipe and his agent greatly miscalculating his value on the free agent market rather than some Mo craftiness.
The only real feather in Mo’s cap for me was the Waino extension.
We definitely could have put together a package that would have bought Haren, but instead we end up with Jake Westbrook at a devastating price.
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
not to mention all the talk of making moves for "clubhouse presense"
plus signing Aaron Miles and generally bowing to Tony LaRussa.
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
...
Lohse signing was bad.
Holliday trade was good, but we gave up a little too much.
Holliday signing was too much $
Lopez was a good pickup. Defense has been a little disappointing but otherwise has worked out. Not quite 2007 form, but close.
Waino extension – good.
I don’t mind having Westbrook, it’s Ludwick being traded that makes no sense especially when we’re down a bat to begin with. I’m just shocked and frustrated that it happened.
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
the initial lohse signing was good
did he sign pineiro to the 2 year deal because that was a good one as well.
His account was hijacked.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 31, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I will wait and see how the post season shapes up before grading Johnny.
You fit into me
like a hook into an eye
a fish hook
an open eye
Defense
The Holiday trade, not so good. But Wallace hasn’t really turned into anything, and it worked out pretty well.
The Lohse signing, actually good. 10 mil per year is totally reasonable for a guy who’s worth about 2.4 WAR per 200 innings. It’s only turned out poorly due to injuries.
You don’t actually have a real reason to not give Mo any credit for Lopex.
And the price for Westbrook is hardly devastating.
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
Ryan Ludwick isn't a huge price to pay?
I was expecting to wake up this morning and be down Arquimedes Nieto or something!
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
There's a WAR-by-WAR comparison upthread somewhere
The gist of it is that although I can’t shake the feeling that we could’ve gotten more for Ludwick, we’ve still upgraded our team by about half a win in a cash-neutral deal that will save money in the long run (and I’m hoping that by next year, Craig will be firmly and productively ensconced in RF).
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
I understand that our team is improved
but trades can’t be seen that way. I’ll restate an example I made earlier.
Say we have Joey Votto riding the bench and Aaron Miles as our everyday shortstop. To fill the hole at short, we target Marco Scutaro. The upgrade from Aaron Miles to Marco Scutaro is probably greater than the upgrade from Joey Votto to Albert Pujols. Does that make an Albert Pujols for Marco Scutaro trade smart?
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
I see your point
I suppose the market for a guy like Ludwick must have just been a lot flatter than we all thought. It seems so weird, but then there are plenty of decent names being traded for crap these days.
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
2-3 days ago lud was on the dl
selling low for sure
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
ank was on the dl for a long time
and the braves traded for him – wouldn’t they have preferred luddy?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
gotta splurge for bobby's finale
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
cost in money and in players
doubt they are willing to give up pitching off their starting rotation that we would be interested in
not off their starting rotation
just one of their other 3-4 guys who are better than most have in their rotation. i think this could have definitely been done. but we seemed to target westbrook early on, and i know how that always plays out – we get our man, damn the cost. (dero, holliday, etc.)
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
This is a terrible argument.
Because it assumes we can hold onto Votto indefintiely. Jon Jay and Colby Rasmus are real assets that are impacted by this trade. We were paying them regardless. Now we get more production out of underutilized assets.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
so if a manager underutilizes players
the front office has to orchestrate bad trades in order to facilitate getting playing time for those underutilized players? great system.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
My reason is that Lopex completely mishandled his offseason
and ended up firing Scott Boras before settling with us.
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
nope, Lohse signing not good
giving the years+money+NTC to a pitcher after a career year is not good business
count me as a big fan
he botched the Lohse signing. And really it’s not the money so much as the NTC. Gregerson-for-Khalil was an outright fail, although as far as I’m aware nobody anywhere predicted that KG was so fragile mentally.
I think Mo won the Holliday trade outright; I think he may have overpaid slightly for the 2010 Holliday contract. The DeRo trade was OK (not Mo’s fault he got hurt so soon), and Lugo & Smoltz last year turned out to be pretty useful signings. Getting Floppy for $1M was a coup; imagine Miles starting at third base all year after Freese got hurt….
Overall I think Mo is actually better than Jocketty, who was pretty damn good himself.
how many broken hands etc does one need to get a clue?
no due diligence
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
not buying it
find me a link to anybody, anywhere, speculating on Greene’s mental state while he was still a Padre.
sorry i can't help with a specific link
but anger issues (broke his own hand), needs a change of scenery talk, and his own admission that he wasn’t sure baseball was that important to him in several articles i read made me wonder. he had the physical skills, but had gone downhill for several years. that he continued downhill should not have been a big surprise
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
the fathers hid it from everyone, even KBot knew to keep quiet or he'd lose his job
it was a bad deal all around. the fathers shouldn’t have traded him, dl’d him & just got him some help. i can’t blame KBot or MO, but i can blame the fathers because they knew something was wrong & they just didn’t want to pay him anymore
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
I slept really late today, so I thought I would come in here now and say
having just seen this, and not knowing the reactions to the merits and demerits of this trade,
I’m really gonna fucking miss Ryan Fucking Ludwick.
What a secretly great player.
Luddy was a friend so it was really hard to trade him
but he felt the best move for the O was a new starter because the O started sucking when Fat Beaker & Bubbles went on the DL. apparently all the hitters are fragile little girls who can’t take the pressure of having to score more than 2 runs per game
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
Bye Luds...
I agree w the masses. We just traded away a much needed run producer. I understand why and can live with the deal what I can’t live with is that I think we got fleeced.
If Westbrook won’t net picks and is gone at the end of the year we dealt Ludwick for a minor league pitcher.
C’mon. we can get more than that right?
You fit into me
like a hook into an eye
a fish hook
an open eye
no
we weren’t getting Ludwick anyway next year so im not sure you can include that
basically its Ludwick for Westbrook
Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 31, 2010 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought he was under team control for one more year no?
You fit into me
like a hook into an eye
a fish hook
an open eye
well "team control" but he's still getting 8 million or more
something this trade tells me the cards weren’t going to do
Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 31, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I still think you could get more for him than a few months of Westbrook and a marginal pitching prospect.
but what do I know I’m not a GM.
You fit into me
like a hook into an eye
a fish hook
an open eye
I would've preferred a really nice pitching prospect >westbrook+what's his name.
I mean the astros got Happ for an overpaid starter yet we can’t get a cost controlled one for one of the better RF(and cheap) in baseball?
Happ is good, he's just isn't a #1 or #2 pitcher his ERA would have you believe.
he has had a 4.46 FIP over the last 3 years and that has value when you take into consideration he is doing it for a less than market value price. Jake Westbrook on the other hand has a 4.67FIP this year which isn’t very good and when you take into consideration he’ll improve slightly with the NL it won’t be much better that Happ’s.
So my question would be 4 cost controlled years of Happ or 2 Months of Westbrook?
a. The Phillies are stupid and were in need of a pitcher. b. Happ is just average. c. Expect Westbrook to improve (Duncan + AL-to-NL).
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
A. yes they are
B. An average pitcher is just fine by me since that’s exactly what westbrook is
C.How much can you assume Westbrook is going to improve?(duncan effect is silly to assume)
c. More AL to NL, plus a high hr/fb which will drop with regression to the mean + Busch. I just threw the duncan effect in for kicks, i don’t know if it’s actually significant.
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
my point is Ludwick is more valuable than Westbrook
and Happ is more valuable than Westbrook, which is why I’m saying Ludwick should’ve netted this team more than westbrook and I would’ve preferred someone cost controlled.
you are forgetting ludwicks salary increase for next year
limits who is even interested in his services. his cost controlled years are almost complete and he is no longer cheap nor young. throw in his injury history and I can see why we arent getting some huge upgrade straight up for him.
at most, he makes 8M next year
So he’ll still have significant marginal value, unless he gets hurt.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
But he is libel to get hurt
Ludwick’s probably worth about 14 million a year, so he’s a net asset if he stays healthy, but he’s more likely to get injured than other guys.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 31, 2010 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
umm a year and two months let's say that's about roughly 5 WAR going forward
He’ll make about 8M next year and will be paid about 1.5M for the remainder of this season.
So about 5 WAR for about 9.5 which is $1.9M per win and the on the FA market it’s usually about $4.4M. which means his surplus value over the contract is predicted to be about $12.5M which a lot of cash. Assuming Ludwick qualify for type A FA like he does now that’s additional value the Padres can get for Ludwick’s services if he declines arb and nets them a supplemental pick which is worth on average $5.5 million. Ludwick at the very most could be worth $18M.
Westbrook is probably worth about 1 WAR going forward the rest of the season, and that’s $4.4M going forward, and I see it being very unlikely he is offered arb with his $11M contract.
In short, Westbrook’s services is worth less than Ludwick’s
I don't think Luddy will be quite 5 WAR
but that’s a reasonable estimate. So basically, you are saying we paid $12M for around a half of one marginal win this year, assuming the rest of the numbers Stlcardfan4 threw out down thread check out.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
that's fucking fantastic.
I rarely curse on here, but I feel entitled to this one.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
yeah, this was a great trade
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
true...
Westbrook should improve being on the right side of a TJ surgery. His elbow should be good for a few more years let’s just hope his shoulder holds up.
You fit into me
like a hook into an eye
a fish hook
an open eye
4.41 xFIP though
Busch suppresses homers
Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 31, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
that's how it looks like to me too
we give up lud to rent westbrook
save no money
get a low probability prospect
indians get a prospect for westbrook, and they have to pay for him
padres get the gold medal
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
Ludwick is getting paid 5.5M this year, and rates to command millions more in 2011.
Spending less on near-agency players means more payroll flexibility for extending Pujols.
Ludwick is 32, has a history of injury, and just finished spending weeks on the DL.
Westbrook is also 32 and pitchers in general have injuries, but he just finished TJ surgery.
Pitchers tend to get better as they recover from TJ, and Westbrook’s was just last year.
The AL has tougher offense, so an AL pitcher will have better outcomes in the NL.
Pitcher win-loss records are not good indicators of actual pitching performance.
Westbrook’s K/BB/HR peripherals indicate that his ERA this year has been fairly unlucky.
Westbrook is already a sinkerballer, matching with Dave Duncan’s coaching dogma.
We still have room for waiver pickups in August since this deal is pretty cash-neutral.
I think the Padres did great in this three-way deal, picking up a much-needed bat for 1.5 years and only losing two unexceptional prospects. I also think the Cardinals could have gotten much more for Ludwick if they waited to trade him this off-season as expected. We are more than halfway through a season in which we have a real chance to drive, though, and that matters.
KEY: COMPARE THE EXPECTED DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LUDWICK AND HIS REPLACEMENT (JAY), AND WESTBROOK AND HIS DISPLACEMENT (SUPPAN) – NOT THE TWO DIRECTLY.
I think we left longer-term value on the table, but will receive a modest and timely net upgrade.
by astrostl on Jul 31, 2010 6:48 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
at least lud's last game as a cardinal was a good one
he was the winning run.
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
last hit as a Cardinal
was a leadoff pinch hit double and he score the winning run.
Good to the last drop!
Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.
by Dave Pendleton on Jul 31, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Good break down here.
Think this will be a positive trade for us as the season winds down, as much as I love Ludwick.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
i can't believe i'm drawing this big of a blank, but what former Cards player was on the pregame
or in the booth & killed it & was begging for a job? it’s driving me nuts i can’t remember him
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
Vince
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
that was Vince? because he was just talking to the Cat & he looked completely different
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
Thought you were talking about a few weeks (months?) ago.
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
no, this was late last season
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
i meant to talk about this
i was laughin my ass off
by guillermozeliak on Jul 31, 2010 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
ludwick love
hey Mr. Luckwick,
not sure when you’ll get a chance to read this but I hate to see you go and greatly appreciate your talent, the way you played, and the way you carried yourself around media etc. Great job and good luck in San Diego.
by infallibleopiniongenerator on Jul 31, 2010 7:03 PM EDT reply actions
I dunno....
Does a great Suppan start mean that Westbrook replaces Hawk in the rotation instead of Sup? Hopefully it’s a moot point if Lohse hurries back, but with his recent history should we even plan on that?
Tradewick
From a rational point of view, I completely get this. We have OF depth, and need starting pitching. Straight up, it’s not a good trade, but given SP needs, it makes sense for the club, especially given the need to cut payroll for the upcoming APu contract. I just wish we had more in return for giving up a valuable piece.
From an emotional standpoint, I’ll miss the Wick, immensely. He’s been an underrated (not here) player, I think. In terms of the post-season, this trade hurts the team, no question. In terms of a pennant race, I don’t see any better options out there for what the team needs.
But I think many of us have thought about getting Westbrook and losing Luddy, if not always in the same breath. I don’t like it, but I understand it. This is the trade that will help us get to the postseason, if, unfortunately, hurt us when we get there. And anyway, weren’t many of us on this boat in the first place, as unfortunate as it is?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7yfISlGLNU
…who has that gif, anyway?
stop the spread of infection...DFA
apparently MO was booed a few minutes ago
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
it really f'n sucks that Luddy is gone
but possibly, this could be a good thing…
Westbrook, a ground ball pitcher, gets a boost from Duncan tutoring, and hopefully once Freese returns, and Boog gets more playing time, and Lopez or Greene starts at second, the defense will be improved.
at some point, we needed to see Allen Craig promoted. unfortunately, the only place the Cards org see him playing is in the outfield. add to that the recent Jay play and you have a very crowded outfield. Holliday and Rasmus weren’t going anywhere.
Lohse and Freese hopefully return from DL soon. that would be like….
Can Penny at least come back at the end of the season and pitch in the bullpen?
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 7:30 PM EDT reply actions
that would kick ass
but that would have to be next year I think
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Suckwick day in Bangkok - play well Luddy
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Is anyone's screen name
or avatar less relevant to the Cards than it was 12 hours ago? None come to mind, but I’m not around as much as some either.
he's always been irrelevant
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
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