Cardinals Acquire Jake Westbrook and Trade Ryan Ludwick
by azruavatar on Jul 31, 2010 12:07 PM EDT
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Update: It's a done deal. Ludwick to Padres. Westbrook to Indians. Padres giving up to prospects. It's unclear who the prospects are but it's probably one to Indians Indians get Cory Kluber, one to Cardinals. Nicholas Greenwood to the Cardinals. Unclear how the $$$ is shaking out.
It looks like the Cardinals are getting Jake Westbrook from the Indians and may or may not be sending Ryan Ludwick to the Padres.
Original Story below.
This was the endgame all along right? We kicked the tires on Roy Oswalt scaring half of Cardinal Nation to death but the truth was the team needed someone suited for the backend of the rotation far more than the front. Jake Westbrook is a good player and one the Cardinals need right now. But if the proverbial Gods of Baseball are listening right now, please don't let him get hurt this season.
10:58am: Krasovic tweets that a three-team deal is pending the union's OK: the Padres get Ludwick, the Cardinals get Jake Westbrook and a Padres prospect, and the Indians get prospects.
Westbrook was a workhorse from 2004-2006 for the Indians posting consecutive 200+ inning seasons where he averaged over 4 WAR. In 2007, he signed a 3-year $33 million dollar deal with the Indians. June 7th of 2008, it was announced that he'd be having Tomym John surgery. Westbrook didn't pitch at all in 2009 but has logged 127 innings thus far this season.
Westbrook is a four-pitch pitcher with a low-90s fastball, a cutter, slider and a changeup. He's not going to strikeout many batters but he will get groundballs. Westbrook's command hasn't been quite what it was in previous seasons leaving him with a K/BB ratio below 2.0. No one should argue that Westbrook is a great pitcher at this point. He's more of a known pitcher. We know that he's about 1.5-2.0 wins better than replacement over the course of 200 IP. That means were probably looking at something like a 1 win upgrade compared to Jeff Hawksworth depending on your opinion of how bad those two are in the starting rotation.
With a move from the AL to the NL, a better defensive corps behind him and a pitcher friendly park, Westbrook should do well in St. Louis. If he can regain some of his pre-Tommy John command, he could do better than well. What the Cardinals will ask him for is to take the ball every 5th day and pitch 6 innings. A consistent quality start (he projects for a 4.50 FIP for the rest of the season) is well within his capabilities. I, for one, well-come our M.A.S.H. unit of pitchers -- so long as they all stay away from Adam Wainwright, aka the only pitcher whose arm has not been sliced and diced.
* * *
Well, aren't we the active little Birdies this season. It's not often that the Cardinals move a productive player from the major league squad. Far more often in recent history, they've poached veterans from other clubs trading a slew of prospects. Jason Marquis and J.D. Drew are the two names that come to mind where we've unloaded players from the active roster.
This move shouldn't be a total surprise though. It's coming a little earlier than I think anyone expected but the Ludwick was getting increasingly expensive and the Cardinals have become increasingly enamored of Jon Jay. With Allen Craig continuing to slug it out (.900+ OPS in Memphis), the Cardinals have the latitude to swap an expensive player for a cheaper one without giving up too much ground.
Ryan Ludwick is projected for a .368 wOBA for the rest of the season. Assuming Jay obtains the rest of Ludwick's at bats moving forward, he's about a 6 run downgrade in RF over 250 PAs. That's using a .340 wOBA for Jay moving forward which you could argue is conservative. Jay's been injured for a good portion of his minor league numbers and he's hit well (and luckily) in the majors. .340 wOBA feels right to me but, as with any young player, there's a higher degree of uncertainty due to less data.
Defensively, Jay was always rated very well in the minors. Ryan Ludwick was excellent this year in the majors and has shown an impressive arm from right field. I'm not certain you can argue that Jay is significantly better than Ludwick in the field -- maybe it's a run or two.
This is something like a .5 win downgrade on paper. The Cardinals are making this move to save money in 2010 and 2011. That doesn't make it a bad deal. I actually think it's a prudent one with the impending contract of Albert Pujols. It's simply uncharacteristic of the Cardinals to move a player like Ryan Ludwick mid-season.
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gun. jumped....?
@Joelsherman1: Think #Padres have fallen out of 3-way talks with Westbrook, it is just going to be #Cardinals, #Indians
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
Resident malcontented betamale
so luddy isn't going?
Joelsherman
Think #Padres have fallen out of 3-way talks with Westbrook, it is just going to be #Cardinals, #Indians
if that's the case
what do cards do w/ 40 man (since westbrook is going to be a cardinal)?
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 31, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Paragraph mixup
refresh if you get to the end of the post and go “WTF?”
I’ll update as more details come out.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
We gotta make a move for offense now right?
Jay has played well and i don’t think he will fall off completely but now without RFL when he does come back to earth we’ll have to just let him play through it and combine that with our underperforming MI, it could be a long second half.
by CentralILcardsfan on Jul 31, 2010 12:13 PM EDT reply actions
Goodbyewick I'missyouwick
"I told myself from the very beginning: 'If he's going to throw a shutout, then he's going to tie,'" Wainwright said. "He was not going to beat me today."
Wait, what?
The Padres are deep in talks with the Cardinals for outfielder Ryan Ludwick…
Now:
Joel Sherman of the New York Post tweets that he thinks the Padres have fallen out of this deal…
Cardinals Acquire Jake Westbrook (and Trade Ryan Ludwick?) Story-edit
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
curses
Revised Headline: Cardinals Acquire Jake Westbrook (and Trade Ryan Ludwick?)
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
I love the trading deadline.
I really do.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I do too! MLB and NHL anyway.
St. Louis Blues. St. Louis Cardinals. Denver Broncos. Univ of Denver hockey and lacrosse. Colorado Mammoth and Colorado Outlaws lacrosse.
+++If the Cards trade Miller I just might have to become a Rockies fan+++
by HockeyHippie on Jul 31, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay.
So there’s a chance we retain him.
I understand why Ludwick makes sense to trade, intellectually, but it’s always hard to see players you love go.
hasnt one of the Pad's prospects worked out pretty well for us?
David (currentlyinjured) Freese?
Didnt we get him for JEd?
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Jul 31, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Woulda been nice to take a chance on Matt Antonelli
Former top 2B prospect, problems with injuries and just fell off the map, maybe he’ll put it together. I don’t really see how some random pitching prospect provides us any value at all.
As long as it's not Tejada.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 31, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Look pretty weak to me.
"He's the straw that makes the drink go."
by Thelonious Dunk on Jul 31, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
if it's not a top prospect
this seems like dumping luddy to pay for westbrook – where’s the dry powder?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
OT...kinda: Why in the hell did the Rays trade for Chad Qualls?
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
Because he's been unlucky and he's a GB pitcher
They boast the 2nd best defense in baseball, they know what they’re doing.
by jackhammerslam on Jul 31, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
GODDAMNIT
I suddenly dont want to go to work where i’ll miss all the trading ACTION ACTION ACTION
GO CRADS
PS please let the FO acquire Westbrook in time to start over Suppan tonight
100% Sober, 40% of the time
He's missing his start tonight
There’s a chance.
by Mulliganstew on Jul 31, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Savin $$$
@Joelsherman1: Westbrook has agreed to lower the $2M bonus that is part of his contract to facilitate the trade from Indians to Cards
Nice.
Gamethreads suck.
Oh hell no.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
by RiverRat on Jul 31, 2010 12:16 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Buster Olney:
As an aside, I hate his formatting. Heard this: your formatting is repetitive and contrived.
sherman:
Forgive me, too quick to believe 1 source, Westbrook has agreed to his end. But #Padres still in it for sure to get Ludwick from #Cardinals
My Sunday post is fucking writing itself
Thank you baby jesus.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
Assumming we do get Westbrook
Look at why his Fastball has sucked this year. His velocity is the same but the results are not. Been a negative 12 pitch this year while every other year it has been a plus pitch
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure thing. I think there's a pretty clear explanation for it.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
I for one welcome our new Craig/Jay platoon overlords.
by Mulliganstew on Jul 31, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I love Luddy, and it sucks to say goodbye
But we couldn’t afford him.
by Mulliganstew on Jul 31, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
that's fine
except I fear a Jay/Stav platoon.
by WyoCardsFan on Jul 31, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
DEAL OFF
….
DEAL ON
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
by Heisenberg on Jul 31, 2010 12:22 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Okay, so I have a question.
This basically means the FO trusts Chief Justice to continue being an above league average OF, right? What if his bottom falls out? It seems really soon to give him this big of a vote of confidence. On the plus side, Razzums will be playing now I guess.
Also, the Padres? What could we be theoretically getting from them that justifies an RFL for Westbrook trade?
Yeah. The Craig/Jay platoon starts now.
by Mulliganstew on Jul 31, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
This is a terrible assumption with Randy Winn still on the team and Nick Stavinoha on a rehab assignment.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
you're right
I just hoping Mo would replace our lost outfield bat with the best option.
this thread is all Aaron Mile's fault.
Not just the Judge,
but basically Jay and/or Craig. This move was to free up space in the OF now as well as in the future. I think the org feels pretty solidly that some combination of the two youngsters will be able to provide a reasonably facsimile of production.
As for the Pads, I don’t know. Let me look at their system a bit.
Semper fidelis tyrannosaurus!
by the red baron on Jul 31, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmm.
I don’t know…he’s pretty highly thought of.
Semper fidelis tyrannosaurus!
by the red baron on Jul 31, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
meanwhile I'll sift through the flood of comments
coming out of GasLampBall
grumble grumble…worthless fans
Seriously.
There are about 6 comments now on the trade. Their outfield has been a mess all year, but this has barely registered over there yet.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
it's san diego on a saturday morning...
I wouldn’t be posting on a blog either…
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
no one ever moves away from SD....
it’s Hotel California.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Luebke's a guy I thought of too.
He’d be a good fit for us, and I like him a lot. Drew Cumberland would be a fit position-wise, as we’re still very thin on middle infield depth, but I’m honestly not sure how he’s played this year. Luebke could be a very good call, though.
Semper fidelis tyrannosaurus!
by the red baron on Jul 31, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
Although I’d add one more name to the list: Jaff Decker.
The Padres seem to be really down on him because he’s got a “bad body”, but he can flat out rake. Probably a future LF but would be good trade bait as a 1B/OF as well if he continues to hit well and get on base.
I would be fine with Luebke or Cumberland though.
I just don’t like giving up a bat when our offense has been stagnant and the guy we’re replacing the bat with has a BABIP of .442 in 100 AB’s in the big leagues.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Mo is just making sure that TLR has to play Colby
but now we’ll prolly see alot of Randy Winn
by CentralILcardsfan on Jul 31, 2010 12:26 PM EDT reply actions
I need to start drinking,
but my responsibilities today prevent it.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
You seem awfully upset about Ludwick being traded.
Might I ask why? Not being snarky, I’m just curious why you seem so upset.
Semper fidelis tyrannosaurus!
by the red baron on Jul 31, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
it's probably
because we’re not sure if jay will continue to be playing good or not.
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 31, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
i''m not sure ludwick can stay healthy...
he’s getting older and more expensive and his best year is behind him. i like ludwick but he shouldn’t be untouchable.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I've just always been a fan......
hard worker, good production……I’m attached. I just need some time.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Gotcha.
I understand. I really like Ludwick too, especially the defense and arm, but I think this is probably a little better than trying to wait, figure out some way to get playing time for everyone, and then try to do something after the season. Maybe not, I’m not sure. At the moment, though, I like the deal theoretically. If all we really ended up with was Westbrook, though, I’ll be irritated.
Semper fidelis tyrannosaurus!
by the red baron on Jul 31, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
That, and I wanted to be able to tell Cody...I told you so.
This prospect better be fricking amazing, because RFL is worth a ton more than Westbrook.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
per MLBN
sounds like the trade including ludwick is going to go down.
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
NCTPadres
Non-#Padres source on Ryan Ludwick: “not done but its real far.” Two prospects involved. “90/10 going down.” “Pads going to win big.”
when is the last time the pads "won big"?
the ’98 NLCS? Color me skeptical.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Pads going to win big?
What the fuck does that mean? Why are we even involving them? We couldn’t get JAKE WESTBROOK using our own system? I’m annoyed
That said – love Luddy and hope he has fun playing in the playoffs
This is a horrible deal
I’d rather give up a couple of middling prospects than have to trade a MLB bat with an .830 OPS and stellar defense — especially to a team that we might see down the road in the playoffs the next two seasons.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I still won our mid-season bet.
When I have time, I’m going to collect.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
I was going to email you about this actually
but totally forgot about it!
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I imagine it will be 3 prospects...
and we get 1…if we dont get back more than Westbrook I WILL BE PISSED.
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
we should get 2 of 3
Westbrook is worth a C prospect tops with his salary
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Are we fucking high?
Why the hell would we trade Ludwick? The only player who has shown consistent offense this season (when healthy) and we are trading him away and getting a pitcher that the Indians should be begging teams to take off their hands.
These two prospects better be pretty damn good.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2010 12:31 PM EDT reply actions
This is my thought also
Westbrook in my mind is a salary dump. C prospect at best.
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Well it's likely only 1 prospect
with the other going to the Indians
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
That must be one serious bong hit
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Or it's just a cost-saving move for the future, and allowing us to work in our
Potential Future Starting Out-Fielders
maybe
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
How much money are they saving?
If they are afraid of arbitration with Ryan Ludwick, then they are really in a bad financial situation.
And what Starting OF’ers of the future? I like Jon Jay but I think Mo may have drank too much of the KoolAid.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Keep football out of this.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 31, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not that they're afraid of arbitration,
but there’s virtually no chance the Cardinals were going to keep Ludwick around after this season as he gets expensive. He would likely get close to ~8 million, I’ll bet, and we’re just not going to pay that with good major-league ready options, not with Albert’s deal coming up and all that.
Semper fidelis tyrannosaurus!
by the red baron on Jul 31, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
But he is also a Type A free agent
That is worth about $5M
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait.
Is he a free agent, or is he arbitration-eligible? You said yourself in the last thread it would be 1.5 years of Ludwick, I believe. Is he still under team control or not? I honestly have no idea what his service time is. Can you help me out?
Semper fidelis tyrannosaurus!
by the red baron on Jul 31, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Well Ludwick is a strong Type A now
So after the 2011 season assuming he would still be a Type A free agent those 2 picks would be worth about $5M
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah, I see.
However, the Cardinals weren’t going to have him after the 2011 season anyway, so I’m tempted to say we can’t really figure in the value of whatever Type free agent he would be.
Semper fidelis tyrannosaurus!
by the red baron on Jul 31, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
assuming he has a similar 2010 season in 2011
He would be worth the risk of arbitration. At this point even if you cut it in half $2.5M for draft picks has to be factored into the trade, imo
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
No, what I mean is
I think there was a zero chance Ludwick played for the Cardinals in 2011, so I don’t know his arbitration status mattered. Now, if you’re saying a team in the offseason would have needed to be paying for the chance he might be good enough for THEM to be an A after the ‘11 campaign and so should be paying for those draft picks, then I suppose I can understand what you’re saying. Not sure I agree, but I see your point.
Semper fidelis tyrannosaurus!
by the red baron on Jul 31, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
also i believe the rankings only go back 3 years?
and alot of luddy’s value comes from 2008
it’d be harder for him to be type A in 2011
by YesWeOquendo on Jul 31, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
So we trade him for Westbrook?
It just makes less sense to me than a trade for a really good SS, say.
Albert isn't owed extra money next season
and they could trade Ludwick for something of real value, not Jake Westbrooks bad contract and average pitching.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Again, I love Allen Craig
but Ryan Ludwick > Allen Craig.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Obviously.
but I think it’s about the money and the future. as it seems now, we lose in the short term – ludwick’s replacements won’t be as good as him, and westbrook is $6m for 1 win. so i guess i just hope that we’re not taking on all of westbrook’s money and the prospect we’re getting is a good one.
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
it won't be $6MM - I'm sure Westbrook took a haircut on the trade kicker
and you have to subtract luddy’s salary as well
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
they are really in a bad financial situation.
Welcome to the Cards’ world after a Pujols extension.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Unless they're trading for Vernon Wells
which would be the only thing more stupid than this current deal, why are we concerned about saving $2M this season and $9M next season?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
i don't mind cost-saving for the future
so long as this isn’t about cost-saving for the present to afford westbrook – we couldn’t get westbrook on our own?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
if by consistant you mean consistantly injured
i like the guy as much as anyone be he is as streaky and injury risky an outfielder in the league
by YesWeOquendo on Jul 31, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Iagreewithyouwick
"I told myself from the very beginning: 'If he's going to throw a shutout, then he's going to tie,'" Wainwright said. "He was not going to beat me today."
If we do this
we have to get back MUCH more than Westbrook. He’s owed too much money to justify trading Ludwick. The prospect(s) we get had better be pretty good.
he is owed more money than Ludwick is owed
And Westbrook is not even close to the same player as Ludwick
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
and we won't offer him arbitration
so we won’t get a draft pick. The extra player needs to be good. And if the Indians are giving up Westbrook and getting 2 prospects, they’re making out like bandits!
if that happens
I will sign the “Fire Mo” petition
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm going to make a prediction -- I don't do this often
The Cardinals will get Westbrook and cash (or at a reduced rate) leaving us with $3M for him through this year (including that nasty $2M contract clause). We’ll also get a B prospect from the Padres.
We’ll send Ludwick to the Padres.
The Padres will send a C prospect to the Indians.
It’s going to be a near salary dump for the Indians.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
So we could essentially have gotten Westbrook for a C prospect then?
And we’re trading Ludwick straight up for a B (more like C) prospect.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 31, 2010 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Ludwick is going to be a market value commodity
There’s not a lot of surplus value there imo.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
but Westbrook's owed
$6 or 7 million and is no better than a 1 WAR player for us the rest of the season. We lose in that deal. Plus, we lose in the downgrade from Ludwick to Jay/Craig. Plus we lose out on a little surplus value we’d get from Ludwick next year. It needs to be at least a B prospect in order to justify this.
That is what I am saying
Westbrook has no surplus value for the rest of this season. He will cost like $6.5M for 1 win AND Ludwick.
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
There's no way we're paying all of Westbrook's salary
Just not going to happen.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
Westbrook scratched from his start.
"They punched me a lot," Holliday said of the celebration [after his July 18 walk-off single]. "But they were good punches."
it seems the cardinals are shedding/promoting/trading outfielders all over the place these last two seasons
probably should sign austin wilson
by YesWeOquendo on Jul 31, 2010 12:32 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Yes, please.
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
Neither do I
I will wait and see these prospects. But I don’t like losing Ludwick for Westbrook
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Bustah-
If the CLE/STL/SD thing goes through, the Padres will send money and a prospect to the Indians.#trades
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 12:35 PM EDT reply actions
mlbtr:
11:28am: Ludwick to the Padres has a 90% chance of going down, tweets Dan Hayes of the North County Times. The Padres would send money and a prospect to the Indians in the potential three-team deal, tweets Olney. Westbrook has officially been scratched, tweets Castrovince.
umm…what about us?
That doesn't make a fucking ounce of sense
Ignore that. It doesn’t pass the sniff test.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
Yeah, that doesnt make sense at all...
so the Padres give up 1 PROSPECT AND CASH AND GET RYAN F. LUDWICK…
No fuckin way.
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
We're getting Grady Sizemore
We’re going to play four outfielders in the field and scratch Skip from the lineup entirely. It’s just crazy enough to work.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
I was hoping a Luddy trade would net an MI who could play MI and hit.
"They punched me a lot," Holliday said of the celebration [after his July 18 walk-off single]. "But they were good punches."
yeah.
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 31, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Me too
maybe the prospect(s) we get will be swung for one
by CentralILcardsfan on Jul 31, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe an upgrade over Skippy?
"They punched me a lot," Holliday said of the celebration [after his July 18 walk-off single]. "But they were good punches."
pretty much
westbrook scratched from his start w/ cleveland
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 31, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
So let me get this straight
Indians get:
Prospects
$$$
Padres get:
Ryan Ludwick
Cardinals get:
Jake Westbrook
Why are we actively trying to lose a trade for a 4th starter?
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2010 12:38 PM EDT reply actions
krasovic:
Union has approved trade. #Padres get Ludwick. #Cardinals get Westbrook, Padres give up two prospects.
GOD DAMNIT, WE BETTER GET A PROSPECT OR CASH OR A BAG OF BASEBALLS.
>:-(
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
bye studwick
Union has approved trade. #Padres get Ludwick. #Cardinals get Westbrook, Padres give up two prospects.
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
What basically amounts to Ludwick for Jake Westbrook?
When Ludwick’s still got another year of arb and Westbrook’s not even CLOSE to type B status?
Unless they plan to play Westbrook at shortstop, this trade sucks.
Indeed it is
It’s completely plausible that neither Lohse nor penny come back this year. We’re kind of screwed going forward in that case. Unless you want Suppan starting a playoff game this postseason. If we make the postseason with two gaping rotation holes and a rookie coming off of tommy john in the rotation.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Not to mention that we're trading from a place of deep organizational depth.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
This team, as is, should hold up into the postseason
And Carpenter-Wainwright-Garcia is more than enough, pitching-wise, in a postseason matchup.
But as is, we’ve got a MIF of Brendan Ryan and Aaron Miles, and a bench of Winn, Stavinoha, Schumaker, and Jason LaRue. Unless we plan to win every game 1-0, that’s not exactly World Series material.
We couldn’t have traded Ludwick for a MIF, why?
It's not implausible that either Carp or Garcia will go down to injury this season
If he wasn’t playing so well and if we didn’t desperately need him, we’d be prudent to be tapering down Garcia’s innings this season. It’s a ton of strain on a kid’s arm.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
b/c the d-backs don't want an expensive OF option
And nobody else was seriously trading really good MIF?
"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."
by tom s. on Jul 31, 2010 1:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It's still a poor trade -- the Indians should be taking anything to get rid of Westbrook
So a minor league starter and another prospect should have done it.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Depends on how much of the contract they're eating, i guess, then
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Our bench blows
seriously, it is Aaron Miles, Randy Winn, (soon to be) Nick Stavinoha and Jason LaRue.
Kill me now.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2010 12:41 PM EDT reply actions
yeah...i guess they won't promote Craig
Freese is gonna be back soon….we might not be done dealing yet….dude get a grip
I guess I don't dare hold out any more hope that Stav will be sent down off of rehab.
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
IMO
this trade only makes sense if there is more offense on the way. we had adequate pitching to begin with and now we traded one of our top four offensive threats. there better be something else going down
We have two horrific rotation holes
saying we have adequate pitching means that you’re assuming that either Lohse or Penny comes back this season.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Yeah, and we blew a 6 run first innning against the Mets a couple of days earlier
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
That wasn't the rotation
that was our Mad Dog manager and his bullpen mechanations.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
And the only reason we won yesterday we because Ludwick was our entire offense
Now he’s gone.
Onubon > Gates
i was hoping
for a bullpen guy in the mix with this deal or am i crazy
by guillermozeliak on Jul 31, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I actually feel sad about this
Always liked Luddy
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 31, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
We do get a prospect. Straight up Ludwick for Westbrook would be highway robbery.
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
it seems so.....
mlbtr is saying a prospect to the Indians. That’s it RFL for Jake Westbrook. Way to go Mo.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
MacDougal would have to pass through waivers right?
/couldn’t type that with a straight face
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 31, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
What if the Indians and/or Padres basically eat all of Westbrook's contract?
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
what would be the point?
DeWitt said we could take on salary. Why would we need to trade Ludwick then?
We'd be clearing salary for Pujols, say investing it in a Pujols fund
and we’d be getting rotation insurance against either Lohse or Penny not coming back or Garcia or Carp getting hurt. The rotation right now is a house of cards.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
which stinks
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
It has to be that the news about Lohse and Penny isn't that good
or that they want to start taking pressure off of Garcia’s arm.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Kahlil Greene.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Don't bother arguing with him.
Semper fidelis tyrannosaurus!
by the red baron on Jul 31, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
The first Kyle Lohse deal was pretty awesome though
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
This is true.
The second one, not so much.
It was an overreaction….kinda like this deal seems to be.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Lance Zawadzki, anyone?
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=paX06009&position=SS There has to be more to this deal.
by rockin the red on Jul 31, 2010 12:44 PM EDT reply actions
bye studwick.
don’t get why the padres had to be involved in the deal or why the cards felt like they had to trade ludwick. i bet lud feels blindsided by this.
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
Looks like Indians only give up one prospect to Cleveland
We might still get one!
roffle
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 31, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
We needed an Arm and a Bat
So we get the arm, but get rid of another bat.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
This team can't score three runs on a consistent basis,
so the solution is to trade RFL!!! for a pitcher that cost more and has less value. This makes no damn sense.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
i'm with you
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Ryan, you've just been traded. How do you feel?
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
"Like I should probably shave this stupid '90s goatee"
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
more importantly, what's going to be the reaction in the clubhouse?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Finally!
Good point. I vote Aaron Miles.
by hangingfromatree on Jul 31, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
bad trade. BAD BAD BAD
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 31, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait.
That’s not true.
The Padres get Ludwick, the Cardinals get Westbrook, and the Padres give up two prospects.
So if the Indians only get one prospect, we get one. Right? RIGHT?
Not necessarily
11:38am: The union has approved the trade, tweets Krasovic. The Padres get Ludwick, the Cardinals get Westbrook, and the Padres give up two prospects. Bob Nightengale of USA Today says the deal is official.
11:44am: The Padres are sending pitching prospect Corey Kluber to the Indians in the deal, tweets Nightengale.That means there is still another prospect to be given up
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 31, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
(that last line wasn't supposed to be in the blockquote)
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 31, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
?
11:44am: The Padres are sending pitching prospect Corey Kluber to the Indians in the deal, tweets Nightengale.
11:38am: The union has approved the trade, tweets Krasovic. The Padres get Ludwick, the Cardinals get Westbrook, and the Padres give up two prospects. Bob Nightengale of USA Today says the deal is official.
We better be getting Ozzie Smith.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2010 12:49 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
We were going to
but TLR wanted to platoon him with Miles
by hangingfromatree on Jul 31, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude
It’s Saturday
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 31, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
They go out with Freese & TLR last night?
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
by azruavatar on Jul 31, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Seriously though
there’s nothing on the P-D page about this.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
No he isn't
deal ends this year. There’s no 2011 commitment.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
i think he'll be back in cleveland next year
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
what the hell is going on
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 12:52 PM EDT reply actions
this
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 31, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
so we have westbrook and no luddy, that's it?
are we at least conserving money?
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
There is some money changing hands in this deal
Let’s find out in what direction.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Westbrook costs more,
there’s supposedly a mystery prospect heading here too. He better be Ozzie Smith reincarnate.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Okay guys,
calm down. When they announce the prospect, then we can start burning stuff. But at least wait until we have all of the facts. Perhaps this doesn’t end up being horrible.
I'm waiting....
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
by RiverRat on Jul 31, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This sucks
3 team trade all done. ludwick to padres, westbrook to cardinals, prospectS to indians
Onubon > Gates
he's wrong
that doesn’t make sense. We’re getting a prospect here don’t worry.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
keithlaw
Cardinals are getting a minor pitching prospect from the Padres, who are sending a better pitching prospect to Cleveland. #trades
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
Resident malcontented betamale
Just saw that.
Fuck.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
so the team giving up the more expensive player with less value
is getting a better prospect than the team giving up the cheaper player with more value
brilliant!
We're gaining on the field value
The ludwick-jay difference is less than the westbrook-suppan difference.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
yes.
And potentially, we’re clearing salary
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
we shouldn't be dumping lud's salary to pay fucking westbrook
we’re in the middle of a pennant race.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
THE ON FIELD TEAM IS BETTER NOW
WE ARE MORE LIKELY TO CONTEND NOW
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Yeah, I think I'm done with this
This thread is more about reaction than trying to actually think about this trade.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
VEB will get over it. I have faith.
The first step in catharsis is bitching, and we do it better than anyone. I’m pretty upset about the deal, honestly, but I can understand the argument for it. It’s not as compelling to me as it seems to be for Azru and you, but I still have faith the Cardinals will be a better team moving forward. It’s just hard to give up RFL.
It's like a gamethread.
I don’t blame anyone for what they’re saying in this thread.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
This is worse than a non-TESS gamethread.
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
YOURE A WHORE.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Jul 31, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
A thread like this is like a gamethread-
visceral reaction. The analysis will come.
/orwhatAzsaid
//ninja’d
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, then wait to see how much of Westbrook's salary is getting paid by
SD or CLE before you start screaming about us paying his salary
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
i'm not screaming
i don’t care if all of westbrook’s salary is paid by cleveland. this is basically a ludwick for westbrook trade, and i find that uneven. if this is a precursor to another deal for a MIF’er, my opinion could change.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
maybe we'll use it to help sign cox/wilson
i don’t believe the “separate budgets” nonsense, other than I’m sure there are separate budgets originally for planning purposes, but that money gets moved depending on needs.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, i don't buy the separate budgets either
i just hope we’re not so hard-up for 3 mil to give wilson that we had to dump luddy. (i want to sign wilson, don’t get me wrong, and i guess i’d sacrifice luddy for that)
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
there just HAS to be more to this. it just doesn't make sense otherwise
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
Resident malcontented betamale
We're saying goodbye to Ludwick
but at least we can keep Ludriguez, no?
by DarkHelmut on Jul 31, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm going back to Arby's
back when I was there, we didn’t have a ridiculously average pitcher and we did have a ridiculously awesome LF’er.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2010 12:54 PM EDT reply actions
keithlaw: Cardinals are getting a minor pitching prospect from the Padres, who are sending a better pitching prospect to Cleveland. #trades
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
Ugh
We’re turning into the Giants. I want some bats.
by Mulliganstew on Jul 31, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Urge to kill........
rising…….
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 31, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
THIS IS NOT A BAD THING
Shit you guys, use your fucking brains. It’s not illegal yet. I know everyone loved Ludwick but there’s a rational argument for this. The whining on this site is driving me bonkers.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
by azruavatar on Jul 31, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
dude
I’m not totally pissed about it. we can platoon jay and craig in right field. but ludwick was a great player
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I just wish we had gotten more than a 14th rounder from three years ago
by Mulliganstew on Jul 31, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
if 2009 was three years ago, wouldn't the world have already ended
thus negating the need for trades?
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
Damn minor league stats
It listed 2009 three times in a row… threw me off.
by Mulliganstew on Jul 31, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm fine with trading Ludwick
I would have rather waited until this winter, since I think his bat is very useful right now, but I thought he’d bring back more than a #4 SP and some guy nobody has ever heard of.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
And that Garcia isn't exactly an innings eating rock in the rotation just yet
and we’ve been throwing Suppansworth out there twice a week, and that we have Craig and Jay waiting to fill that outfield spot. And that Carp is still an injury risk
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
No
there’s more too it than that. We are a better team in 2010 after this trade. Maybe also a more expensive team but a better one on paper.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
Are we though?
Is this dependent upon Jon Jay continuing to hit at this torrid pace?
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
it's dependent on us not getting both Lohse and Penny back.
because the gap between expected-.340-wOBA Jay and Ludwick is smaller than the Soupsworth-Westbrook gap.
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
Right, but we are going to get atleast one of those back
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
but not both, or at least I think this decision wouldn't have been made if the FO didn't think only one of them would be back
Which means to me that Penny won’t be back, leaving us with a September rotation of Waino, Carp, Jaime and two league-average-ish guys. Which is a huge upgrade over Soupsworth.
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
You also have Craig out there to platoon with Jay
It’s dependent on one of Jay or Craig not being a true .600 OPS hitter
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
we have Craig too
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Plus az
the starting pitching is by no means certain for next year with Otto’s surgery and Hawk’s struggles. If they like what they see from Westbrook, they might be able to re-sign him at a reasonable rate. I don’t love the trade, but Luddy’s days in STL were numbered. Plus, it’s quite possible that with dunc’s help, Westbrook will be pretty good.
I think a lot of the frustration comes from
the Cardinals saying publicly they are willing to take on salary over giving up talent. Instead, they gave up talent and took on salary. This coming a week after the MSM got everyone in a tissy that the Cardinals might take on Roy Oswalt.
In the span of 7 days, things went from “WE’RE GETTING ROY OSWALT!” to “JAKE WESTBROOK FOR RYAN LUDWICK?”
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
we got nothing out of this.....
Non-Padres scout: “Great deal for SD. Kluber is a fringe No. 5 SP, Greenwood a non-prospect.”
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
sad day when the pads are buyers and the cards are sellers -
at least it sure sounds like we sold luddy.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Ludwick's more valuable
than Westbrook. A “better pitching prospect” is more valuable than a “lesser pitching prospect.” We definitely need more info but based on this info, we lose this deal.
Chuck you keep perpetuating this idea that Ludwick is more valuable than Westbrook
and while you may be right in an absolute sense, i think you are dead wrong in the relative sense. The Cardinals can replace some of Ludwick’s production they’ve struggled to fill the back of the rotation.
You can keep repeating this but you’re missing the point with a misleading statement.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
That's only true if our only option
was to get Jake Westbrook. There isn’t another 1 WAR pitcher out there that wouldn’t have cost us one of the 5 best RF in baseball the last 3 years?
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Myers is considered untouchable by Houston
Plus, it would be attempting to deal with Houston.
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
From about 9 this morning:
MLBRumorCentral: The Astros are now open to a deal for Brett Myers. http://es.pn/bOEk2A #trades
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah, thanks.
Still, it would dealing with Houston. The price for Myers would be higher for St. Louis than anyone else.
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
The upgrade from Suppan to Westbrook
is bigger than the downgrade from Ludwick to Jay/Craig, I’ll grant you but Ludwick, by himself, is more valuable than Westbrook who, in all likelihood, won’t be worth the money that is owed to him the rest of the year. Are we better this year? Yes…a little. But Ludwick was worth more to us than this. We gave him away here.
i just don't understand why we got stuck with a non-prospect
anything of value and this trade makes sence
by YesWeOquendo on Jul 31, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Why would we evaluate this deal on the players' surplus 2010 values?
The organization is willing to take on salary to improve the club. They have done so, in all likelihood. This trade likely improves our club and the marginal increase was worth the price to them, given the divisional race.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 31, 2010 1:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm not pissed about the trade...
my main problem with it is that we got an innings eater to solve the short term problem of our pitchers being hurt when we’ve got the long-term problem of a gaping would in the MIF. We couldn’t have at least gotten Kelly Johnson, Steven Drew, Omar Infante, etc.?
Trading Ludwick for Westbrook and C-prospect?
That’s a fucking bad thing. Sure we aren’t any worse off for it because it turns out it’s reallllllllllly easy to get a big upgrade over Jeff Suppan, but that doesn’t mean this wasn’t a terrible trade.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 31, 2010 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I could be wrong but I believe Nicholas Greenwood was an old, old wooden ship used during the Civil War era
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 31, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Lee Greenwood's nephew.
Good kid, likes to work on cars. Little slow, though.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
22 year old lefty SP, 6-1, 14th round pick in 09.
Not sure how much the minor league stats mean, but he has a healthy k/bb at least.
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
The pitcher version of David Freese
"I got to get Dr. Freeze off my twig right now."-Nyjer Morgan
by flipthebird15 on Jul 31, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
he's got a 3.32 FIP in 91 IP in high A
but he’s already 22 soon to be 23. i’d like to see him in springfield to end the year if he can maintain this pace at quad cities
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
i guess i had them backwards
i though QC was high A
but still, he’s been assigned to quad cities
http://twitter.com/dgoold/status/20005577281
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
ok
for reference it’s
Memphis
Springfield
Palm Beach
QC
Batavia
GCL Cardinals
Johnson City Cardinals
VSL Cardinals
DSL Cardinals
according to FG,
he hasn’t thrown a pitch in 2010.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
He has.
http://firstinning.com/players/Nicholas-Greenwood-a/
3.57 FIP this year.
by rockin the red on Jul 31, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Baseball America
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
The Cards just wanted a LH version of
THE PEEJ! They should compliment one another well in Memphis next season.
RFL for GG!
At least we didn't trade Colby.
yet…
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
sadly, this.
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 31, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
we didn't really downgrade THAT much
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
But why downgrade at all?
"They punched me a lot," Holliday said of the celebration [after his July 18 walk-off single]. "But they were good punches."
We upgraded the on-field team
Westbrook is more of an upgrade over Suppansworth than Jay is a downgrade from Ludwick
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
That may be true...
but that doesn’t mean that the Cardinals didn’t get absolutely ripped off for Ryan Ludwick.
by rockin the red on Jul 31, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
That's the problem with these deals
You can’t take Ludwick to the store and get points for him, and then cash them in for Westbrook, and store the surplus.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
it seems whoever is trading the "name" player in all these deals is getting "ripped off"
when that’s the perception every time, it means the market is likely misunderstood.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
hmmm....I'll try to consider that.
Maybe Ludwicks value is less cause he’s hurt so often
"I told myself from the very beginning: 'If he's going to throw a shutout, then he's going to tie,'" Wainwright said. "He was not going to beat me today."
Eating money is probably a big deal for the teams
they’re paying a player to pay for another team, after all. I would assume that Bill Hicks still gets mocked by the other managers for the A-Rod swap.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
neither did kluber.
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
All the 3B...
near the top of that list, and we don’t get any of them.
/sigh
by DisplacedCardsFan on Jul 31, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah...
but, maybe one has some potential as a MI…
by DisplacedCardsFan on Jul 31, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Pad's fans think
Jed Hoyer must be a jedi.
Initially the discussion centered around Luebke and Castro, and they’re clearly pleased they didn’t give those guys up.
Maybe They Are Not Through Tradiing
Kelly Johnson still available – DB’s talking to Giants now about Johnson trade
why couldn't we just do this for westbrook and be done with it?
by YesWeOquendo on Jul 31, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
If they involved the Padres, then the Cards didn't have a prospect that Cleveland wanted.
I can’t believe that. Give them anything but Ludwick, Holliday, Pujols, Molina. There wasn’t one person on the team they wanted???
"I told myself from the very beginning: 'If he's going to throw a shutout, then he's going to tie,'" Wainwright said. "He was not going to beat me today."
Hm....add colby to the list that they couldn't pick from
"I told myself from the very beginning: 'If he's going to throw a shutout, then he's going to tie,'" Wainwright said. "He was not going to beat me today."
every farm has a Kluber or a Greenwood
Kluber is not an impressive pitcher and Greenwood isn’t even a blip on the radar
the cardinals farm could match this
by YesWeOquendo on Jul 31, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
This trade is the nexus of the universe!
Buster_ESPN
The Padres are sending P Nick Greenwood to St. Lous in this deal, P Nick Greenwood to Cleveland. #trades
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Oh, I get it now.
We traded Ludwick, but we still have Ludwick. Don’t worry guys, baseball players are replicants.
Schrodinger's prospect
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 31, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Not a good prospect for the Cardinals.
I still think that this is an understandable and easily defensible trade but I don’t have time to lay it out right now. I hope there’s some $$$ changing hands though given how fast this has happened I suspect not.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
That should serve him well,
in his career at Springfield.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
He's got good overall numbers
but I don’t see anything special here. Way too early for me to have an informed opinion though.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
I'm reading that he works in the mid 80s and tops out at upper 80s
doesn’t sound very good to me unless he moves to the bullpen and finds some velocity.
Seems like the definition of "warm body"
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
According to @castrovince
official release says the Tribe also sent cash to the Cardinals. Does not mention cash coming back to the Tribe from Padres
Money going from Pads to Indians was mentioned earlier.
Who knows at this point, though.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Assume Lohse and Penny come back healthy in Sept.
That’s a rotation of Carpenter, Wainwright, Garcia, Westbrook, a $10MM Kyle Lohse, and Brad Penny.
Unless Tony’s debuting a six-man rotation, we just traded Ludwick for a pitcher who’ll be our long man when everyone comes back healthy.
Pretty big assumption
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 31, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
If Penny is ever healthy again
he’d be a fine bullpen pitcher.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
If Penny comes back, it will be as a reliever
He has closer’s stuff, anyway
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
So you're counting on
two injured pitchers returning and Garcia to keep pitching 200+ innings. There’s more than enough room for Westbrook in this group.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
i will simply pretend ryan ludwick is on the dl for the rest of the year
and that jake westbrook showed up on our doorstep asking if he could pitch
I guess I'm just confused.
Why did the Padres need to be involved at all? They made out like bandits. I never thought we’d get rid of Ludwick in a salary dump. That’s not what I feel like contenders do. Oh well, what’s done is done. It just sucks RFL is gone.
I guess
we can’t have it both ways. We would have gone crazy had they traded Jay or Craig; we traded from an area of strength. But now we are less likely to score runs. And that’s a problem for this team
If Jon Jay wasn't hitting .396 right now, would we have traded Ryan Ludwick?
What do you guys think?
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
And if it wasn't COMPLETELY sustainable.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
I don't think so
Which makes me think this a terrible trade. Jay can’t keep doing this.
Onubon > Gates
But WHEN HE REGRESSES the difference between Jay and Ludwick is still smaller than that between Soup and Westbrook
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
i can has loogy?
See what happens when you crash and burn, tyler norrick? I blame you, tyler.
For serious, I would still like to hear about the money. I assume that the money going to CLE was to set off some of westbrook’s salary.
"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."
by tom s. on Jul 31, 2010 1:09 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I agree with Leach
MatthewHLeach
If there’s not another shoe to drop, it’s hard for me to see how #StLCards are better now than 3 hours ago. Curious to hear what FO says.
Onubon > Gates
I categorically disagree.
No one has made a reasoned argument that the gap between Ludwick and Jay is greater than the gap between Westbrook and Hawksworth/Suppan.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
Well a 4.65 ERA is not good.
That means we have to score at least 5 runs every time he pitches. We got rid of our 3rd biggest offensive weapon in an already struggling offense. So I don’t see what difference it makes. We’re losing whoever the 4th starter is.
Onubon > Gates
The DH is worth half a run of ERA already
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
also, knock some off for the Duncan effect
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Kip Wells.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Did Mo sign kip wells?
Or was that still Jocketty?
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
I'm just sick of people using "the duncan effect"
he has a clunker for every success story.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
projected about 4.50 for the rest of the year.
That’s a Kyle Lohse number; in other words, a big upgrade over Hawkpan.
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
That makes him a 2 WAR starter over 200 innings.
He’s average.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
that's right, average.
It seems to me that a contender who has some dry powder in reserve, shouldn’t have to give up its 3rd best bat for an average starter and a non-prospect. It’s counter-productive IMO. Yes, we needed an average starter to help us out right now, but the cost of Luddy was too much. It just doesn’t feel like a move a contender would make. I just don’t understand how the Cards couldn’t get Westbrook (or someone comparable) for a C grade pitching prospect from Springfield.
RFL for GG!
Oh come on, you don't have to trade Ludwick to get an average starter
We could have traded Daryl Jones to get an average starter. You know how I know this? Because THE INDIANS FUCKING TRADED A C PROSPECT FOR WESTBROOK.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 31, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
glad someone else here gets it.
The more I think about this trade, the more I scratch my head.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
This a trade aftermath thread
LOUD NOISES!!! YOUR WRONG!!! SCREAM!!!
You just don’t get it.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Here's how I see it
Cleveland essentially gave up Westbrook (and cash?) for Corey Kluber. I’m not as versed on minor league players as most VEB’ers, but I have a hard time believing we didn’t have a prospect as good as this guy to give. Why did we need to involve San Diego? I don’t see why we couldn’t have traded for Westbrook and kept Ludwick.
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 31, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
but
Ludwick’s also cheaper than Westbrook. Westbrook’s owed something like $6 million and Ludwick’s owed less than $2. Plus, Ludwick would have surplus value next year as a 3rd year arbitration player. He would have value after next year as at least a type B free agent if we offered him arbitration. Now we might not have done that but the likelihood was probably 50-50 which means we have 50% of the value of his compensation as well. We gain this year by about 1/2 a win but that half win costs us $4 million this year. $8 million a win is too high a price to pay. Plus, we lose Ludwick’s surplus value next year. Apparently this Nick Greenwood prospect isn’t worth all that.
But I’ll allow that we are better this year in terms of sheer wins. We just should have gotten more or given up less.
by chuckb on Jul 31, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
how much cash did we get?
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
but why not have both luddy and westbrook?
is there any explanation other than dumping lud’s salary to pay westbrook? otherwise, why not just trade straight-up with cleveland?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
let's face it
everyone knew we NEEDED a starting pitcher. we can’t just keep rolling SupHawk out there
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:11 PM EDT reply actions
no way we offer arby given his current contract so it's irrelevant
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
much more likely this is an entree to offering westbrook
A $4m “prove-yourself-again” penny-style contract.
"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."
by tom s. on Jul 31, 2010 1:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
that was my advice before the trade happened
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I was really looking for an excuse to drink this early
I liked RFL, he was one of my favorite players…but we have options in the outfield and I always thought with Albert’s contract coming up Luddy wasn’t really an option to remain in St. L.
If Westbrook means I don’t have to watch Suppan fart 80 mph gopher balls every fifth day, I’ll warm up to it.
by RollBirdsRoll on Jul 31, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Too late. Drinking.
Its a baseball trade..what does rationality have to do with it? smartass grin*
by RollBirdsRoll on Jul 31, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
An additional $8 mil we can now use towards Albert
Part of it, or no?
Adios Esposito.
Adios Sarge. Say a prayer for Surf Boy...wherever he is.
think about it
you have Jon Jay hitting like a madman, and if he cools off, you have Craig tearing shit up in the minors. Ludwick was sort of expendable…. but he was our clutch guy.
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:12 PM EDT reply actions
I'd like to change my vote
on the confidence-o-meter
by jeff_abs on Jul 31, 2010 1:13 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Alright.
I’m out for the rest of the day. I can’t take much more of this — I’m in the minority on this trade. I hope to help you all see the light tomorrow morning because I think this is a good trade.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
I hope you are right robot
"I told myself from the very beginning: 'If he's going to throw a shutout, then he's going to tie,'" Wainwright said. "He was not going to beat me today."
Agreed
Luddy was expendible and the trade fills a need. We can debate whether we could have gotten more elsewhere for him but overall I think this makes the team better.
Go crazy folks, go crazy!
Yes
Saying he was ‘worth more’ in an abstract sense is probably true, but you have to find a buyer. And you then have to find something the Indians want to get Westbrook in addition to that. If you can improve the team, you do so. That should be the rule.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
i hope we checked in with atlanta before this deal
they might have liked a good outfielder.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I am with ya man,
I like this trade as well, as much as I love Ryan Ludwick. I have to buy a new jersey now to replace my Ludwick one, which is now useless :(.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
I'm going to continue believing that Ludwick is on the DL with Hammy issues...
and that he may not play again this year…Oh and we signed a FA starter named Jake Westbrook…
Ya, thats what I’ll do.
DENIAL
(DENY DENY DENY DENY DENY DENY DENY DENY)
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
According to dgoold
Cardinals receive cash from Indians to offset addition of Westbrook’s salary. Signed through this season.
RIP RFL
7/31/10
tear
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:13 PM EDT reply actions
Ludwick was expendable and was eventually gone because of contract issues
They have to keep young guys and blend them with a few high priced players. Ludwick was a good player but he was expendable with Jay and Craig in the wings. While there is nothing sexy about Westbrook, he is a solid #4 and pitching is simply very expensive.
they couldn't have kept him anyway
but it will sure be an interesting race in the NL central this year without him
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
no no
it was because I changed my avatar from RFL to JJ a week or two ago.
sorry guys!
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Jeff Sullivan
Greenwood is a 22 year old A-ball southpaw who’s been working out of the rotation. His fastball tops out around 90 and hovers in the high 80s, and his preferred secondary pitch is a curveball. He is a long, long ways away.
Really does look like San Diego comes out on top, here.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 1:18 PM EDT reply actions
why is it all about winners and losers?
Rather than who makes themselves better? The thing about markets is that there CAN be win-win propositions. In fact, most trades probably should be win-win
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
cause the braves were going to play Luddy at SS?
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Brendan Ryan + Ludwick
Would of gotten Escobar
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Brendan Ryan alone may have done it
Alex Gonzalez sucks
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 31, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
The Braves gave Gonzalez a standing O when he walked in the clubhouse for the first time!
They would have LOVED Boog!
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 31, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm stuck at the third stage of grief, struggling to get to the fourth: depression
"They punched me a lot," Holliday said of the celebration [after his July 18 walk-off single]. "But they were good punches."
our foe for the day also had a big trade
Pirates and Diamondbacks 5 player deal
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:21 PM EDT reply actions
possibly the least consequence trade ever?
" The Diamondbacks receive Ryan Church, Bobby Crosby, and D.J. Carrasco. The Pirates receive Chris Snyder, Pedro Ciriaco, and cash considerations"
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
More from dgoold
With Ludwick off ’11 books, Cardinals in better position payroll position to add infielder who is arbitration eligible. If poss.
yes but
we could have done this in the offseason, saved half a win, and gotten more from Ludwick than we did.
that's the part I don't understand
why not maximize Ludwick by keeping him the rest of this season? Most people assumed he wouldn’t be on the 2011 team but only getting a marginal prospect + Westbrook for him seems like a weak return.
the 2010 team MIGHT be better now but it seems like a lateral move. Yes we need Westbrook but now the offense got even weaker
But more importantly, how does his name play?
InningseaterBrook?
GroundballBrook?
BetterthanHawkSuppButWeMissRyanBrook?
LuddygoWestbrook
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I like it.
The name. Still think the trade sucks balls.
by RollBirdsRoll on Jul 31, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
and he did go west!
I kinda like the Padres a lot now
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I always liked Luddy
probably why I hate to see him go.
by RollBirdsRoll on Jul 31, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
i thought you've been liking them all year?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
There is no way he isnt better than Soup.
No way.
by RollBirdsRoll on Jul 31, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
plenty of time
to catch up on the scouting reports
by martimeryard on Jul 31, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I couldn't think of a good caption, but I thought the picture was too good to pass up
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 1:25 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
that's pretty good.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
Point of concern
As a potential Wild Card team in the NL Central, we just made our first round playoff opponent better for the cost of nothing.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2010 1:25 PM EDT reply actions
You forget
We still have Jeff Suppan….and he DOES give us a chance to win every single game. It’s not his 85 mph fastball with no movement, or hanging breaking balls that are causing problems, it’s everyone eles around him.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Jay/Craig, Westbrook, extra payroll space >> Ludwick's payrise, Suppan
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
We have no extra payroll space this season
and Suppan isn’t on the team next season.
We still could have gotten payroll relief in the offseason by trading Ludwick.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I would imagine it would be much harder to trade Ludwick in the offseason
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
I think you are greatly underselling Ryan Ludwick
This guy was one of the 5 best RF’ers in baseball over the last 3 seasons. He’d cost roughly $8 M next season and the team that gets him would likely be getting Type A compensation in the offseason.
Ryan Ludwick had real value, much more than what we got for him. As the team goes, we may be better today, as long as Allen Craig and Jon Jay are .800 OPS hitters but we would have had no trouble finding a suitor for Ryan Ludwick.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I agree
We probably undersold Ludwick but hopefully this leads to a different trade for a MIF
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
"Suppan isn't on the team next season"
You don’t know that yet!
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 31, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah...but how are you going to like this when...
its Jay/Stav, and Suppan still starts while Hawk goes to the ’pen?
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
how do you trade a core hitter
when offense has been a much bigger problem than pitching?
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
Pujols and Rasmus have to step it up now
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
well said!!!
we just got him back healthy…..we needed Luddy in there to kick start the pathetic offense.
Milt Thompson FTW!
Ludwick was a bigtime run producer
Jay is hot now, but can’t fill the spot of run producing #5 hitter.
Craig must be brought up to hit 5th and play Jay in center until he cools off. Jay should have been the trade bait, because he’s not a major league starter.
Milt Thompson FTW!
who is going to value Jay as much as Ludwick though
nobody
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Our front office.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
our front office was valuing an upgrade over SupHawk over a 6 man outfield
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
sure, i agree with that
but thats not what i ment. i just ment we need luddy in the lineup…jay is certainly not a replacement for him in anyway.
Milt Thompson FTW!
but what part of the team is probably most expendable, that has value?
the outfield
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Won't matter
TLR will start Miles because of his gRIT and all groundballs will be four feet away from his tiny outstretched arms.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
...
It’s not the be-all, end-all, but…Ludwick, 120 OPS+; Westbrook 85 ERA+.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
how about two words: not good
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
he's not very good
but he’s a soft tossin lefty so I guess we can prevent him from pitching to us
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
as stated earlier
pads scout said he is a nonprospect
its not even worth wastin space typing about him anymore
by guillermozeliak on Jul 31, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
mess!
that is an understatement…its like a bee hive after someone hit it with a bat haha
off to the overflow
by guillermozeliak on Jul 31, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll take more pitching anyday. Especially if we can trade from a supposed strength to get it.
But I am still more than a little surprised at this…..
St. Louis Blues. St. Louis Cardinals. Denver Broncos. Univ of Denver hockey and lacrosse. Colorado Mammoth and Colorado Outlaws lacrosse.
+++If the Cards trade Miller I just might have to become a Rockies fan+++
exactly
I’m surprised too… but it kinda explains not seeing Ludwick in the lineup after he got off the DL I guess
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
its not a strength though....
just because you have a bunch of OF’s doesn’t mean its a strength
Jay is hot…that doesnt mean he is suddenly a major league starter
Milt Thompson FTW!
you have to make a gamble here
one of Craig or Jay could be a major league starter. it improves the odds over just relying on Jay
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
im cool with Craig
Jay doesn’t have the power for a RF’er
Milt Thompson FTW!
he's got 3 homers already
he hit two of them really far. seems powerful, albeit maybe a fluke
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, cmon peeps
Colby will get to play more now!
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
From Gaslamp Ball
Greenwood was one of our guys from last years draft with a lot of promise
He pitched really well last year for Eugene. Lights out good. This year he started well, but he’s fallen off. He’s a decent prospect. The product of a farm system that’s been getting better and better.
(snip)
by Wonko on Jul 31, 2010 11:57 AM CDT
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 1:30 PM EDT reply actions
Horrible
We should have gotten much more out of Ludwick than that. He’s still under team control for a reasonable price for one more year. Westbrook is a free agent with no compensation. Even if Westbrook is as beneficial as Ludwick for the rest of the year, it’s a bad deal.
We should have got a prospect that projects to the middle of the rotation as well.
Westbrook will be worth more than Ludwick for the rest of the year.
We have a capable starter in Craig and a probably-not-for-real backup in Jay for Ludwick. Our pitching depth, meanwhile, is terrible. This trade adds pitching, which is what we’ll need, as we now depend on an injury-prone ace who’s getting old and a rookie who’s already had TJ.
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
He will not be worth more than Ludwick
but he will probably make the team better, if that makes sense.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I assume Westbrook will not start tonight?
I realize we werent gonna keep luddy past this year but the bottom line is he was extremely valuablr to us this year. Our offense is struggling and he has been one of our best hitters. I really doubt the cards needed to include him to pick up westbrook. Our bench is awful.
I guess we will see how Jay plays once he doesnt have to hit to keep his job. Someone said this means TLR has to play Raz now. Yea im sure…..i think this prob just means more Stav, Winn…..im not even sure we see Craig called up. suppan n hawk arent going anywhere.
by mick311 on Jul 31, 2010 1:30 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Dear Mr Westbrook,
Get to St Louis now. I have tickets to the game tonight anddont want to sit through Suppan’s nonsense
You know what's funny....his number is 37
So he could replace Suppan in more ways than one. I say we give the indians Suppan for free…. well maybe we ask for a bucket of balls, but that’s pushing it.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
...
BJRains
Will be interesting to see if Cardinals make another deal for an infielder before the 3PM Central trade deadline
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
True, True
My brother said in the car when I told him about the trade. "Well, Walt Jocketty is probably smoking a fatty, having a beer, and laughing his ass off.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
and bernie with worthless tweet
while eating a twinkie
by guillermozeliak on Jul 31, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Overreaction
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 31, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
maybe, maybe not
but it’s damn funny.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
how is this the case?
jocketty would have traded miller for oswalt, who’s arm would have promptly fallen off
fuck jocketty
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME
bullshit
Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 31, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Just because we have 5 or 6 OF's doesnt mean its a strength
Luddy was a legit run producer on a team with a pathetic offense.
Jay is a currently hot, 4th OF in the long run.
Milt Thompson FTW!
Jay doesn't hit homeruns
he hits a ton of line drives though with lots of contact.
by hangingfromatree on Jul 31, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
There is that perception of him as a 4th OF
I really feel like he could be a legit regular. He’s a fantastic defender with a pretty good eye and great contact skills. Sounds like a very valuable player if he can handle the pressure of the leadoff spot down the road. Thepainguy also mentioned that he has some power potential in his swing, so that may come, too.
by Jon S. on Jul 31, 2010 3:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
works.
St. Louis Blues. St. Louis Cardinals. Denver Broncos. Univ of Denver hockey and lacrosse. Colorado Mammoth and Colorado Outlaws lacrosse.
+++If the Cards trade S. Miller I just might have to become a Rockies fan+++
by HockeyHippie on Jul 31, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
how is it over kill
It is not like I am him to get beat up. I just think he should be fired
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Too many exclamation marks.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
he just got signed to a new contract, flim!
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
too many !'s
but i am borderline about doing the same thing.
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
Well, for one, you made an online petition
Online petitions are serious business.
by Mulliganstew on Jul 31, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I laughed out loud at this.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 31, 2010 2:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
ya, very interesting
i live in houston and they hated the oswalt trade….but i kinda liked it. they got a possible hitting machine to fill in for Berkman for the next decade perhaps.
Milt Thompson FTW!
not a hitting machine anymore
Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog
by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 31, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Everything is coming full-circle
Ludwick will burn us in the playoffs….if we make it that far, and now Wallce is with Houston. What’s next?
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
FESPN says
very good deal for Cardinals. bah
their “analyst” said “the cardinals have had all kinds of injuries in their rotation – brad penny, kyle uh.. [next sentence]”
i don’t care how much sense that makes or doesn’t, i’ll still miss luddy. i love luddy. i has a major major sad
Can we bump Adam Wainwright up a day?
And have Westbrook throw tomorrow?
Cause we lose this trade if Jeff Suppan pitches tonight and Jake Westbrook takes Hawksworth’s spot next turn.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2010 1:34 PM EDT reply actions
Last time we bumped Waino
The Mets had their share of fun. I say drink double tonight and hope Duncan realizes a jet-lagged Westbrook is better than a Jeff Suppan any day of the week.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
we realy just traded ludwick
for a pitcher most assumed would be available on waivers and some throwaway prospect?
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
yes.....but we're supposed to believe the team is better for this,
because the drop off from RFL to Jay/Craig is less than the gain from Soup to Westbrook.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I don't think it's enough of a gain
to justify the trade. Jay has been lucky, and Craig has been unlucky. Jay plugs in as the starter just in time for him to fall back to earth. I honestly think this trade makes this team a worse playoff contender. Might make it easier to get there, but we will pay for it in the long run. Westbrook will have little, if any, impact on the playoff roster.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
where the hell is yadi2 on this?
mo didn’t mark his words.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
ok, i must have missed something
anyway, mo better hope he doesn’t run into yadi2 at the grocery – probably get beaten upside the head with a 50-lb sack of bacon.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
What is this????
What happened to “the Cardinals can absorb salary in the short term”? This team was scuffling on offense and you trade away Ryan Fucking Ludwick? And you get Jake Westbrook and a non-prospect in return?
I have to say, this does it for me. I no longer trust John Mozeliak to make good decisions.
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
by purple_haze on Jul 31, 2010 1:34 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
can we please wait and see how this trade shakes out before throwing Moz under the bus?
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I believe it's pretty clear
the answer is ‘no’.
Semper fidelis tyrannosaurus!
by the red baron on Jul 31, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
fire and pitchforks! fire and pitchforks!
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
i certainly wasnt agreeing with the Mo sucks part
just the why trade Ryan fucking Ludwick part
Milt Thompson FTW!
What could occur that makes this a good deal?
All the players are named, all that is missing is the $$$. So we’re sellers? Did we forget we were in first place?
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
by purple_haze on Jul 31, 2010 1:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The prospect had a really good year last year.
Maybe Mo sees something in him… maybe a sequel to Garcia.
by Mulliganstew on Jul 31, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
it's already shook out
how luddy or westbrook perform the rest of the year isn’t going to change much.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
no kidding
get Westbrook…but dont give up the guy i probably trust most on the team to knock a guy in!! anyone notice the offense has been pathetic!?!?!?!
Milt Thompson FTW!
What's the word on Freese?
Is he close to returning? Could that be a factor in all of this?
St. Louis Blues. St. Louis Cardinals. Denver Broncos. Univ of Denver hockey and lacrosse. Colorado Mammoth and Colorado Outlaws lacrosse.
+++If the Cards trade S. Miller I just might have to become a Rockies fan+++
Has a running test this weekend....
If he passes, could go on a rehab assignment this week and could be back withing 1-2 weeks.
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
within*
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
right on thanks.
That would put Lopez back on bench, correct?
St. Louis Blues. St. Louis Cardinals. Denver Broncos. Univ of Denver hockey and lacrosse. Colorado Mammoth and Colorado Outlaws lacrosse.
+++If the Cards trade S. Miller I just might have to become a Rockies fan+++
by HockeyHippie on Jul 31, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I doubt that's much of a factor
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I just want Miles gone. Does Freese returning relegate Miles to waiver wire **fingers crossed*
St. Louis Blues. St. Louis Cardinals. Denver Broncos. Univ of Denver hockey and lacrosse. Colorado Mammoth and Colorado Outlaws lacrosse.
+++If the Cards trade S. Miller I just might have to become a Rockies fan+++
by HockeyHippie on Jul 31, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
please no more Miles Stavino
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
OUR OFFENSE HAS BEEN PATHETIC!!!
sweet! we just traded away a great run producing OF’er!
we must be better
Milt Thompson FTW!
If we were willing to trade Ryan Ludwick
shouldn’t we have shopped him a bit? This just seems so bizarre.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2010 1:37 PM EDT reply actions
Not that it is the greatest stastic
but he was the NL leader with RISP.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
lol, wouldnt have guessed that from your new sig
Milt Thompson FTW!
personally I think a statistic that is not that great should be called a "stastic" from now on...
seriously, that’s got real potential.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, this is the only thing that bothers me about this.
i’m not really angry about this, like a lot of people, but it seems a run producing, good defensive right fielder could have gotten us more… i would like to know what the indians-cardinals deal would have been otherwise. if it was giving up a B prospect and eating the salary, that seems to make more sense; then we could at least deal Ludwick for some GOOD prospects, instead of this bag of balls we got.
Fire TLR.
how do you know he wasn't shopped?
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
We heard not one peep of it
Maybe Mo kept it underwraps pretty tight but I have to believe that the best they could get back for him had to be more than Jake Westbrook+cash.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
would be interested to know what the White Sox would have given for Luddy.
But again, collectively, I think we overrate the market for our own players.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
do you think this was a desperation move by Moz since there were so many people demanding a trade?
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
no
mo better not be letting fans’ demands influence decisions.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
guess what! more Rasmus!
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:37 PM EDT reply actions
I know
I will miss Luddy
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Irrational Trade
As it stands. The only argument put forth that this deal makes sense is to provide some sort of financial flexibility next year, but we were recently lead to believe we could somehow subsume Oswalt’s contract and be in fine shape going forward, so I’ don’t buy it. Not only is it impossible to accept that the best haul we could garner for Luddy is JFW, but we now have to continue living with an anemic offense plagued by under performing personalities trying to live up to their existing massive contracts or those they expect to collect in the future. This team is offensively out of sync on a physical and mental level…the solution, trade away perhaps the most consistent performer for a two month, back end starter rental that will net us nothing in the off-season.
Other mysteries remain. TL
by BKKCard on Jul 31, 2010 1:38 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
best explanation I've seen.
What you said.
by RollBirdsRoll on Jul 31, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Luddy was great for the cardinals
but he never approached “most consistent performer”
by YesWeOquendo on Jul 31, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
It may be overreaching
but I should clarify I am referring to this year. If the expectation is that the luck of JJ will continue and Colby will have sufficient visits from his Paw to fill the power void left by Ludwick, I’d still say we are flying by the seat of our pants.
Moreover (and not in direct response to your comment) it is evident from the majority of posts in this thread that the well informed readership of this blog consider this trade imbalanced, which speaks for itself. In light of the trade WTH are we attempting to accomplish this season? Most teams are trying to fill every nook and cranny of their 40man with some offense and we’re doing the opposite. Luddy is the kind of offensive cement (not to mention defensive) this team needed to evolve into something better than a stuttering jalopy in the Central.
Other mysteries remain. TL
And not only the geniuses at VEB, but also Leach, Bernie, Straus, etc.
"They punched me a lot," Holliday said of the celebration [after his July 18 walk-off single]. "But they were good punches."
This move seems like a way to help us make the playoffs....
But unless Mo makes another we arent gonna win any games there. When we get to the playoffs Westbrook wont even factor in….meanwhile the offense will be hoping they had a clutch veteran bat….
Ill go ahead and blame this trade on Brad Penny though.
by mick311 on Jul 31, 2010 1:41 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Penny, you disappoint me
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
whew, i'm worn out, and bumbed out
Milt Thompson FTW!
OK, so what are the chances there is nother deal to come for some offense?
trying to be optomistic here
Milt Thompson FTW!
I think pretty good
although if we trade someone else of value, VEB will implode
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
ugghh...
im not against Westbrook….
just not looking forward to a bad offense that now doesn’t have luddy
Milt Thompson FTW!
our offense hasn't had Luddy that much lately
for like over a month right?
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Unlikely
I think if teams knew Luddy was available we could have traded him for a lot more than what we got. I’d be pleasantly surprised if we got a bat.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Bad Trade
While I agree this trade may make us better in the short term, this seems to seriously undervalue luddy.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!
Who knows though if they were willimg.to trade luddy I would imagine they shopped him...
I dont see why he was not a more sought after player. Like Espn.com has an article titled “cards pick up Westbrook in 3 player deal”….seems to me like the most important player in that deal was ludwick..
by mick311 on Jul 31, 2010 1:46 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The only thing that softens the blow of this for me is if Suppan doesn't start today.
All work and no Ludwick make cloister a something something something…
by cloistermaximus on Jul 31, 2010 1:44 PM EDT reply actions
Well screw it, I'm going to the pool...
It’s hotter than nine hells, my ex is being a total bitch today and then this shitty trade. I need chicks in bikinis and booze.
Another trade next?
S Drew, K Johnson, Uggla?
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
for Kelly Johnson
We would have to give up Wainwright. At least how Mozeliak values things
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
or playing hardball with that crazy talk
are they really going to extend him?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Story up at the mothership. Nothing new, no mention of how the money flows.
ST. LOUIS — The Cardinals have gotten their rotation upgrade, but they’ve done so at an enormous cost.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 1:47 PM EDT reply actions
Don't know why San Diego had to be involved in this
I know we don’t hold all the cards. We are starting Hawksworth and Suppan every 5 days, after all. The deadline approaches, and the sharks sense blood, so I figured we’d have to pay more in prospects than we’d like. But I don’t see how we needed to let the Padres inject themselves into this. Couldn’t we give what the Padres gave without giving up Ludwick?
I’ve seen it become incredibly easy to get tickets, so I’ve suspected the revenue isn’t as strong as most do. So maybe that’s part of it. We also know the farm isn’t in the best shape, but I think we could have matched what SD gave them.
I can see what Azru is saying, and it is just essentially a trade of 2 month rentals at this point. There are no long term implications, so I am not going to throw a fit over it. I just don’t see why Ludwick to San Diego needed to be a part of this. San Diego did a hell of a good job brokering this, obviously.
how many contenders need an OF?
whitesox/ rays/padres
probably could’ve gotten someone better from the rays.
braves
could we have gotten a pitcher there, someone to help now and in the future?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
i'd have to assume mo checked in with them
but yeah, i was thinking something like medlen.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
i was wondering the same thing
shoulda just been STL-CLE
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
Ludwick isn't a rental
He has another year of team control
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
by purple_haze on Jul 31, 2010 1:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
and is a Type A free agent in a weak free agent class
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
No, he isn't.
It doesn’t work that way. If he’s under team control, then you have to sign him or cut him loose. If you cut him loose, you can’t offer him arbitration. If you want to keep him, you can sign him or go to arbitration, but the Type thing doesn’t come into it because he isn’t a free agent.
Semper fidelis tyrannosaurus!
by the red baron on Jul 31, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I am talking about after the 2011 season
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
We have no idea what kind of free agent he will be then.
Semper fidelis tyrannosaurus!
by the red baron on Jul 31, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
i feel safe in saying that at a minimum he would be a Type B
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
but he still wouldn't have been around
hate the return on luddy all you want, but we weren’t going to be getting draft compensation for hime ither way
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
why wouldn't you factor that into his value
Even for the receiving team
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Ouch
I always forget how little service time he really has. San Diego definitely won the deal. Selling it for us is a little tougher. Essentially our case revolves around saying Jeff Suppan really really sucks…..which happens to be 100% correct by the way. And that we evaluate Jay to be legitimate – that is less certain to be correct and it would certainly be nice to have a few more months to make the evaluation.
It just surprises me that this is the best we could do. I wanted Westbrook, I just thought it would cost less. Guess I misjudged the market.
My takeaways are to never ever leave yourself in a position where you have Jeff Suppan in your rotation again, because that will send alarm bells off in every GM office that there is a golden fleecing opportunity. And, secondly, that maybe our financial situation isn’t as rosy as people think. I can see the financial case behind having Ludwick involved much more than anything involving wins.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 31, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
some of the trade defenders are missing the point
I can understand the argument that the gain of Westbrook is more important than the loss of Westbrook (not that I necessarily agree). My problem is: why did we have to give up Luddy to get Westbrook?
To free up money for a MIF
and believing (or hoping) that Ludwick is largely replaceable (with Jay/Craig), and not re-signable in the future to get an AP deal done?
how did this free up money?
My first memory of Cardinals baseball is seeing Darrell Porter jump into Bruce Sutter's arms on October 20, 1982!
Indians are paying for part of Westbrook's salary
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
oh, i hand't seen any confirmation of that
any idea how much??
My first memory of Cardinals baseball is seeing Darrell Porter jump into Bruce Sutter's arms on October 20, 1982!
we don't know that yet
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
well I'll wait until we geth that MIF to buy that
and you’re telling me we had room to take on Oswalt’s salary but we’re worried about what Luddy’s making?
Not sure how I feel about all this...
so I was playing devil’s advocate trying to understand why it went down the way it did.
Stark-
#Cubs on verge of trading Ted Lilly to #Dodgers. All indications are that Ryan Theriot also going to LA in deal. #trades
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 1:52 PM EDT reply actions
"You can have Lilly, but you have to take Theroit too"
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 31, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
What a joke
We have been BAD on offense and we trade Ludwick for a 4th starter?? Mo is not the gm I thought he was. Now I am having SERIOUS doubts that we will sign Pujols.
If we had to trade Ludwick we should have got a little more in return…..one would think. Mo better have a deal in place for Stephen Drew or at least Kelly Johnson. I just don’t think Jon Jay is going to keep up the pace. Rasmus better snap out of his slump.
Boy a frosty cold Budweiser would be great about now"…long pause…then an "aahhh". --Mike Shannon
wouldn't moving Ludwick mean we are more likely to sign Pujols?
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
One would think
but I wouldn’t say it’s a guarantee.
Boy a frosty cold Budweiser would be great about now"…long pause…then an "aahhh". --Mike Shannon
cuz we wouldn't be able to afford him after next season anyway
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Still this trade reeks of desperation.
Boy a frosty cold Budweiser would be great about now"…long pause…then an "aahhh". --Mike Shannon
I was thinking the same thing
St. Louis Blues. St. Louis Cardinals. Denver Broncos. Univ of Denver hockey and lacrosse. Colorado Mammoth and Colorado Outlaws lacrosse.
+++If the Cards trade S. Miller I just might have to become a Rockies fan+++
by HockeyHippie on Jul 31, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Um, Pujols will be negotiating with DeWitt, not Mozeliak
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
Mo will be involved he is the GM.
Boy a frosty cold Budweiser would be great about now"…long pause…then an "aahhh". --Mike Shannon
If by involved, you mean passing papers, you're right.
Players of Pujols’ caliber don’t just work with the GM.
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
Mo started out well imo
but with each successive move I lose more confidence in him. But I guess it’s only fair to wait a bit and see how this shakes out before judging
You mean AAA prospects that the Rays are gonna need next season?
McGee, Hellboy, and DJ will all be up in 2011. DJ is a for sure starter.
by jackhammerslam on Jul 31, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I know.
Future Rays closer, most people have had him pegged there since TJ surgery.
by jackhammerslam on Jul 31, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Congrats to him
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 31, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
i can't wait
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Guys, it's about salary
The Cardinals needed to get Ludwick off the books. I’m not saying it’s a good move. This really tilts the division to the Reds right now, but it has nothing to do with Mozeliak or Luhnow and everything to do with DeWitt and La Russa.
I don't see how this is about money
Westbrook will cost MORE than Ludwick this year. And we could of always trade him this off season.
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
No
The Indians are sending money to make up the difference. It’s a salary wash.
Yes it does
The Cardinals didn’t add anything to their payroll this season and they won’t have Ludwick or Westbrook next season. This is all about money.
That makes no sense
He is not even guaranteed a contract. We could release him after this season and he would be owed nothing.
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I'M NOT SAYING IT WAS A GOOD DEAL
I’m telling you what the logic behind it was.
It is
when you consider that La Russa and Duncan are tired of running out Soupsworth every fourth and fifth day. This move wouldn’t have happened unless they put their seal of approval on it.
they may approve of westbrook
but i’m not so sure tony gave any approval on moving luddy.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
and it should be all about
winning in the playoffs…..this trade makes us a worse playoff team.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
it's tough
we gotta make the playoffs first. I’d imagine we would lose a lot of the SupHawk starts
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Pretty awesome one though
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 31, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Per Strauss
Minus Ludwick salary, Penny incentives and plus Tribe offset, the Cards added a pitcher and lowered payroll. But at what price to offense?
too much.
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
Everyone can quiet the Allen Craig to STL stuff. He hasn’t been in Memphis for 10 days and therefore can’t be recalled until Wednesday
Onubon > Gates
Quick, someone kneecap Miles.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Tonya Harding, where are you when we need you?
"They punched me a lot," Holliday said of the celebration [after his July 18 walk-off single]. "But they were good punches."
we're banking a lot on the successful returns of Freese and Lohse
somebody cue up Dan and Al…
My first memory of Cardinals baseball is seeing Darrell Porter jump into Bruce Sutter's arms on October 20, 1982!
Al, when you look at getting a guy like Lohse...
it’s like making a deal at the deadline.
Al: Right. If Lohse returns to his ’08 form when he was a 15-game winner, that could be huge for this team down the stretch.
thanks so much...
My first memory of Cardinals baseball is seeing Darrell Porter jump into Bruce Sutter's arms on October 20, 1982!
God I hate Al
Every time there’s a wet field and the pitcher scrapes his cleats on that spiked pad on the mound you hear this:
Al: In forty years since lowering the mound that’s all they’ve done for pitchers, that spiked rubber pad that doesn’t even work that well, that’s all they’ve done. Blah blah blah hitters get all the advantages blah blah blah.
Rick Horton: That makes me bitter Al, just like my almost no-hitter when I was 12. My therapist says to move on but I was a Major Leaguer so fuck him!
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Rick's therapist never played the game
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 31, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
You know what I hate more than Al
When Rick and AL do the games. I mean hell, if that’s not cruel and unusual punishment, I don’t know what is.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
wonder who would be dealt for a MIF
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
i've got a feeling
that someone like craig may go in a trade. mo’s already screwed us over once today…
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
if dumping lud's salary was to pick up a good MIF'er, i'll look at this deal a little differently
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
look at berkman's bat over the last two months....
he’s coming back. he was just coming off knee surgery in april and may. He’s going to blow up for the Yanks.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
i think so too
now all they need to virtually guarantee a ring is to pick up soria, leave nothing to chance.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
so who else are we trading?
there’s still like what.. 2 more hours?
who else would come off the roster if they make one more?
Correction
per Rosenthal: would get DeWitt, Class AA pitcher and possibly third player for Lilly/Theriot package. Not sure of financial exchange.
Stark
Deal done. #Cubs sending Lilly & Theriot to Cubs for Blake DeWitt & minor lgers Brett Walch & Kyle Smit. LA also gets $2.5M.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
That's a true Cubs' twit.
Only the Cubs could trade players to themselves.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 31, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Goold-
Westbrook owed just about $3.67, so with relief from #Indians and Ludwick (owed $1.8m) to SD, this could be a cash-neutral deal. #stlcards
and
DeWitt, pride of Sikeston, moving into division, per reports from @Ken_Rosenthal as part of Lilly/Dodgers deal. Interesting. #stlcards
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 2:06 PM EDT reply actions
i'm all for it!!
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Why?
Where the hell would we play him? He’s even worse than Flopex at 3B
by Mulliganstew on Jul 31, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
he's a hell of a lot more valuable than greenwood
we could trade him again, or he could take apu’s place.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
hating this trade
the only way I can try to sell it to myself is thinking about Ludwick being an injury magnet.
they had better go with Craig instead of Stav.
I hope when the Cards win the World Series, Ludwick gets voted a full share…
I have a hate relationship with the Cardinals' roster makeup decisions. | Cards on Cards
If that's true,
I’ll have to wash mine out with vodka…
Wash, rinse, repeat
Play ball!
by IL and StL Fan on Jul 31, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
That's just not fucking funny Cody.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 31, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
with that
i’m beginning to wonder how much control TLR really has on free agent pickups & trades. what’s happened so far today is nothing short of idiocy.
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
MO got bent over yet again
they’re all laughing at you MO, they’re all laughing
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
by gdm426 on Jul 31, 2010 2:11 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
I wondered when you'd show up.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 31, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
classic gdm
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
when was the first time?
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME
KBot, DeRo & the jury's still out on the Lego deal
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
ok, I'm outta here. insanity quotient too high!
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 2:12 PM EDT reply actions
Changed my sig
I’m done an out. I’m going to go curl up in the fetal position and cry myself to sleep. Enjoy batting clean-up for A. Gonzo, Luddy.
Padres' RFL for GG!
so....jay's .446 BABIP is now considered sustainable, right?
follow me on twitter @nickg105, @Rams_Fan_Voice
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 31, 2010 2:14 PM EDT reply actions
Better be
because I can only imagine the shitstorm if we traded Luddy and a continually sputtering offense causes us to miss the playoffs
I'm surprised people aren't glade that one of Hawk or Sup is going bye bye
silver lining?
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
and Miles!?!
St. Louis Blues. St. Louis Cardinals. Denver Broncos. Univ of Denver hockey and lacrosse. Colorado Mammoth and Colorado Outlaws lacrosse.
+++If the Cards trade S. Miller I just might have to become a Rockies fan+++
by HockeyHippie on Jul 31, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
now that would make my day
along with a dfa of stav
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
if not, insert Craig
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
... I don't like this.
I mean, I understand WHY…but I’m gonna friggin’ miss Luddy.
St. Louis Cardinals and Indy Colts fan. Avid fan of the Springfield Cardinals, the Cards' AA team!
bye Luddy! go hit shit tons of line drives in Petco! I'll be watchin some Pads baseball, I think their my #2 now
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 2:17 PM EDT reply actions
They always have been my second favorite team...
but having my #1 team get screwed by them does not help their case. I guess its not their fault…
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
Blame it on Mo.
It’s like blaming Lohse for accepting his contract.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 31, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
jeez people
what are you going to do if Luddy gets hurt and Westbrook gets Duncan’d? foot in mouth?
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Will be assigned to luck.
"They punched me a lot," Holliday said of the celebration [after his July 18 walk-off single]. "But they were good punches."
Listen, the Padres gave up two prospects, neither of which were in their top 20 prospects...
and got Ryan Ludwick….
that’s all Im saying.
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
yep
plus they’ve already got Ecks. That’s always entertainment.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 31, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Really hate the fact that as a Denver resident
Luddy just went to the Rockies’ competitor in the NL West. Ugh. Pads just got better.
St. Louis Blues. St. Louis Cardinals. Denver Broncos. Univ of Denver hockey and lacrosse. Colorado Mammoth and Colorado Outlaws lacrosse.
+++If the Cards trade S. Miller I just might have to become a Rockies fan+++
John Denver was full of shit, man.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Okay, people defending this trade.
From what angle is this defensible? The only standpoint is the money, right? So if we normalize the money, we get a rental of a 4/5 starter for the league minimum for a year and a couple months of Ryan Ludwick. Is this equal value?
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
by purple_haze on Jul 31, 2010 2:19 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
two words: Suppan, Hawksworth
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
and money is a wash anyway
at best, save maybe a million tops, right? Keep Luddy, get Westbrook with some prospects, then trade Luddy in the offseason for a higher return. Tell me how that doesn’t make more sense?
- less payrol
- get’s craig/jay into lineup so they could become regulars
- suppan—> westbrook is like 2 WAR considering suppan would probably -1WAR
Suppan and Hawksworth suck BAD
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Understatement of the season.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 31, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Forget about who is replacing who
I’m talking about the deal being equal value sent in both directions. Any other argument is just rationalization.
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
and yet...how many games have they limited the runs to 2-4
and it was actually our offense that failed to win a winnable game
I agree
How does trading our 3rd (arguably 2nd) best hitter for a guy who will be our 4th best pitcher make the team any better? Especially when we had Ludwick for 1.5 years and only have Westbrook for .5 year
by cardstitansfan on Jul 31, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
well, Luddy was arbitration eligible again...
but talk was that we weren’t up to paying him what he would probably be worth in arbitration. so, we wouldn’t necessarily have him next year anyway.
possibly trading him after the season wouldn’t help our pitching this season—or so the argument seems to be going
My first memory of Cardinals baseball is seeing Darrell Porter jump into Bruce Sutter's arms on October 20, 1982!
All good points
I just worry we now won’t have enough offense to win a game in the playoffs. If we get swept out (assuming we beat out the Reds, which I think is a big assumption at this point) Westbrook, potentially won’t even get a start.
I guess my next question is can we offer arb to Westbrook and get conpensation if (when) he goes elsewhere next year?
by cardstitansfan on Jul 31, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
we might not have enough offense
but it won’t be because of losing ludwick…it will be because of our offensive black holes at SS and 2nd, which is why, if the money we saved for next year allows us to get a MI, i LOVE this deal…as is, i’m just above neutral about it
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME
if that happens
I will judge this deal in a different light. The way it stands at 1:30 p.m. Central. The offense with 2 black holes traded their 3rd best hitter for a new #4 pitcher. Doesn’t compute to me.
by cardstitansfan on Jul 31, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
i don't know, but that's an important question since Westbrook will be a FA
My first memory of Cardinals baseball is seeing Darrell Porter jump into Bruce Sutter's arms on October 20, 1982!
the only thing i can think of is we really overvalue luddy
there are better, healthier, cheaper and younger RF on the tradeblock
not a lot of starting pitching
by YesWeOquendo on Jul 31, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
so, i think aaron miles is now our best option off the bench.
/kidding, but only sort of
follow me on twitter @nickg105, @Rams_Fan_Voice
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 31, 2010 2:19 PM EDT reply actions
...
i want edmonds ludwick
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
hey
you were the #1 trade demander
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
i didn't think they'd actually trade lud
or if they did, i thought it woulda been a better player.
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
sorry guys
just trying to make light of this. not the best trade…. but at least one of the Suppan or Hawksworth is no longer in the rotation. and there might be another trade happening.
ok, I gotta start moving my stuff now.
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 31, 2010 2:23 PM EDT reply actions
Suppan will stay
Because his 85mph fastball down the middle keeps us in the game you know. I mean Hawksworth only throws 92-95, why would we want that.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
A little more that 1 1/2 hrs for Mo to pull something out of his ass
that makes today smell like roses.
"They punched me a lot," Holliday said of the celebration [after his July 18 walk-off single]. "But they were good punches."
Ludriguez!!! Por queeee?!
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
Hey Houston,
Suck it; you suck
Man
a lot of you guys like ludwick a lot more than he was worth…he is an oft-injured streaky outfielder…maybe we could have gotten more for him, i don’t know, but the fact is we just bumped either suppan or hawk from the rotation(positive), added a LHP to our farm system(positive), cleared future payroll for a potential deal for a MI(positive) and lost a player who was not even on the team when we had our best run of offensive performances(slight negative)
over-reaction is the theme of this thread
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME
we traded a 3-4 WAR player making $6.5M
for a ~1.5 WAR player making $11M. Forgive us for not celebrating.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
dude
he didn’t die…
I have a hate relationship with the Cardinals' roster makeup decisions. | Cards on Cards
Obviously
But our only hope of offense did. I like Jay, I really do, but right now in a pennant race I’ll take Luddy. I don’t care if I overvalue him, it’s hard not to like Luddy.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think it's too far.
I completely agree with his sentiments. I’ll go with a proven commodity in the thick of a pennant race, regardless of how much I like Chief Justice. The image isn’t meant to be taken literally for fuck’s sake.
"When I gave up a grand slam to Pete LaCock," Bob Gibson said later, "I knew it was time to quit."
by The Classical on Jul 31, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank You
Like I said, I really like Jay and I hope he’s not just a 4th OF in the future. However Luddy is a tremendous run producer (400+ avg I think with RISP?) and in the playoffs he could make a difference. He gets tremendous jumps, has a great arm, and is a power threat.
Chillax people.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
i love luddy, i'm really sad he's gone
but he’s alive and well and hopefully continues to be
and this above is a picture of a cemetery
aside from trade and baseball i find it a little off
but you know, whatever, humor has a different definition for everyone
I tried to find a different picture
But didn’t like them. I’m by no means saying death is funny, the focus was meant to be on the bottle not the cemetery. I like to think I have a good taste in humor BTW.
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
pics are hard, it's best to leave them to the expert
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
by gdm426 on Jul 31, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Riot not headed to AZ in the mentioned KJ swap
so maybe he’s still available since The Riot is going to LA
This guys so good(Pujols) He should be illegal-Pirates announcers
i know
MLBTR was saying cubs and zona were talking a KJ switch for theriot
This guys so good(Pujols) He should be illegal-Pirates announcers
Per Heyman, 45 minutes ago
Diamondbacks rejected an offer from Giants of Joe Martinez plus another player for Kelly Johnson.
so, there's murmurings of another trade going down?
follow me on twitter @nickg105, @Rams_Fan_Voice
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 31, 2010 2:29 PM EDT reply actions
?
??
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 31, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
You've got it all wrong
Mo doesn’t rip teams off, he’s always the victim
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
i didn't think that was a ripoff going either way
J.A. Happ is 28 and looks like a 3/4 starter.
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
when else was he the victim
i keep hearing that he constantly gets screwed in trades…but i can’t think of another one
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME
He's lost every major trade, so far, except edmonds for freese
k greene was dreadful. the glaus for rolen deal seemed like a win at first, but ended up a loss. if nothing else because, like the current deal, he could have gotten much more for Rolen. Derosa for Perez was awful, and he significantly overpaid for Holliday…
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
If we still had Mortenson
we really wouldn’t have needed to trade Luddy for Westbrook.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
uh, except a guy who is likely to kill us for the foreseeable future
lest you forget, we traded the walrus for holliday, who i believe was a top 20 prospect in all of fucking baseball. and then we gave holliday an obscene contract. sheer and utter stupidity.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Stop saying Wallace is likely to kill us in the future
As of now, he looks like a replacement level player in the majors (a league average bat at first base with bad defense). Yes, he could improve, but he is not a top prospect anymore. 24 year old first basemen who have a .850 OPS in hitters parks in AAA are not valuable commodities.
In retrospect, the Holliday trade was a win for us. Holliday performed amazing down the stretch, whereas Walrus’ prospect status plummeting. Interstingly enough, Mortenson is looking like the more valuable prospect.
This Luddy trade makes me wanna cry
Goodbye Studwick :(
The Redbirds are of the highest priority to me... As it should be
RFL will be the Pod Peoples' most expensive player next year.
"They punched me a lot," Holliday said of the celebration [after his July 18 walk-off single]. "But they were good punches."
luddy speaks
Fox_Sports_MW
Ryan Ludwick talks to Fox Sports Midwest on tonights #stlcards pregame show. Hes sad to leave but excited for the opportunity. More at 530 3 minutes ago via web Retweeted by BJRains and 5 others
Its a programmed response.
Question A results in Response A
Question B results in Response B
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
Query:
Would pro sports athletes pass a Turing test?
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Carp wouldn't.
Baby crying? “I’d luggage it.”
by Mulliganstew on Jul 31, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
At least Westbrook seems like a decent guy....
….The Indians discussed the deal late into the night, partly because of Westbrook’s trade assignment bonus. The right-hander co-operated with the Indians when it came to the bonus, partly because he missed time with injuries.
"I didn’t really feel like I honored the contract as much as I would have liked to have," Westbrook said.
-MLBTR
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 2:36 PM EDT reply actions
...
the cardinals trade manager tony larussa and broadcasters dan mclaughlin and al hrabosky to the padres for OF ryan ludwick
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 31, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm on board....
All games will be announced from the bullpen by Blake Hawksworth (when not starting) and Mitchell Boggs (when not relieving)
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
(with on the field interviews done by Jason Motte)
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
Just wire up Boog
For a running play by play and color all-in-one
Play ball!
by IL and StL Fan on Jul 31, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd be on board with that
Boy a frosty cold Budweiser would be great about now"…long pause…then an "aahhh". --Mike Shannon
that actually wouldn't be as bad, but have no idea what his salary is....
St. Louis Blues. St. Louis Cardinals. Denver Broncos. Univ of Denver hockey and lacrosse. Colorado Mammoth and Colorado Outlaws lacrosse.
+++If the Cards trade S. Miller I just might have to become a Rockies fan+++
by HockeyHippie on Jul 31, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
it makes more sense
now that we’ve cleared up payroll
too bad the marlins are talking about extending him
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
i don't understand why everyone is so hung up on this
of course they say they’re going to extend him, that gives them more leverage in a trade. But he hasn’t been extended yet, so he is definitely still in play.
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
I want Jim Edmonds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BRING BACK JIMMY BALLGAME!!!!!!!!!
by boilertiger on Jul 31, 2010 2:43 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
no thanks.
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
Someone call up Chris Duncan
and Joe Thurston while we’re at it.
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
not a bad idea
we could use a power hitter who can handle RF
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
I saw something fleeting yesterday that the RedSox asked about him.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 31, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand that Westbrook is an upgrade from Suppan
but you can’t rationalize trades by looking at the relative value of their replacements. You have to look at the trade in a vacuum in order to get the most value out of it.
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
You're ignoring that the Cardinals have assets they can't fully utilize with Ludwick on the roster.
It’s not a rationalization. The Cardinals had surplus outfielders. They dealt one.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
I'm not saying that Ludwick shouldn't have been traded
I’m just saying that we didn’t get back nearly enough value for him.
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
That is to say
having assets to replace Ludwick gives us a reason to trade him but doesn’t affect his value at all.
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
I just can't quit this thread.
Your argument amounts to John Mozeliak didn’t do his due diligence. If this is all the Cardinals could get for Ludwick (Westbrook plus 1.8M), then maybe our evaluation of the trade market is off.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
by azruavatar on Jul 31, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Alternately, since that sounds like an appeal to authority,
look at it as Rasmus/Jay being underutilized assets. So the Cardinals were losing value by having them share time. They gain value in each of those commodities by giving them full playing time even if their skillsets haven’t changed. We usually call this opportunity cost but rarely have to look at it when we’re moving someone who is still productive.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
by azruavatar on Jul 31, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Don't look at it as our team's value before the trade vs. our team's value after the trade
Look at it as 1 year + 2 months of Ryan Ludwick for a rental of Jake Westbrook at (I assume) league minimum.
That is not a fair trade.
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
So if I have two widgets, widget A and widget B.
Widget A is worth 2 (pick a unit). Widget B is worth 1 when I have widget A but 2 when I don’t. If I can’t capitalize on widget B’s value without giving up widget A, then why shouldn’t that be part of the decision calculus?
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
Because that might be the value of a trade to you
but it is not the value of your widget on the open market.
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
Right but I'm losing value on another asset
by keeping widget A.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
You have to look at the trade in a vacuum in order to get the most value out of it.
I couldn’t disagree more with this statement. No win-win trades would ever get done or even be possible.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay, lets say then, that our team just happened to have Joey Votto in the minors
and we had Aaron Miles as our everyday shortstop. We’re trying to fill that gaping hole at short with, say Marco Scutaro. The relative value between Marco Scutaro and Aaron Miles may be greater than Pujols and Votto. Does that make it okay to deal Pujols for Scutaro?
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
Is Votto accruing service time on the team without playing as a regular?
Because Colby and Jay are.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
You can't seriously think that's a worthwhile example.
Baseball players’ performance values aren’t fungible commodities.
With all due respect, your statement that “You have to look at the trade in a vacuum in order to get the most value out of it” misunderstands the basic tenet of successful negotiations and deal-making, i.e., that deals can best (and often, only) be made when they allow for mutual gains. You should read something like “Getting to Yes” (a classic). This is how business deals get done; otherwise, in your world, they’d only get done when one side has incomplete/wrong information.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 31, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
we are a decent hitting middle infielder from being much more dangerous
Mo has 1 hour and 16 minutes to make it happen.
tick tock tick tock
My first memory of Cardinals baseball is seeing Darrell Porter jump into Bruce Sutter's arms on October 20, 1982!
K Johnson, plz Mo
"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning
i just wonder
what it would take to get KJ or S. Drew.
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
mo would probably over-trade for one of them
just like he did with lud
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
I'm back with more reasoning for the trade!
I just realized that Cazana is back from his deployment as a drug lord assassin in Mexico, and he’s playing ball in Memphis. This move was obviously made to make room for Cazana. The offense, and the world, will be saved!
Padres' RFL for GG!
The Braves are working on potential deals for hitters and relievers, tweets David O’Brien of the Atlanta Journal-Consitution, and there’s a “reasonable chance” something gets done by the deadline.
we have reliever! what do they have up the middle? oh
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
out 7-10 days
with broken finger. Not sure if they DL’d him, but if they did he’s not tradeable
Albert Pujols is ridiculous.
Much like a sign-and-trade
The Cards could use the less-used trade-and-DL
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 31, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
may still try...
not will still try….
Theres a difference between I might try and I will try.
'I'm hitting .841. I play for the Bears...I have a Harley-Davidson, does that turn you on?' - Kelly Leak
x-Fire Tony LaRussa-x
Goodness.
Buster Olney loves the deal for the Cardinals. Also, Jaime Garcia is the frontrunner for rookie of the year in his book. I wasn’t expecting that latter bit.
i wasn't expecting
the first bit.
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
Ah Buster Olney
“SRSLY the phillies were talking about getting pujols for Howard.”
What team hasn’t had the following conversation… “Say Bob, this Albert Pujols fellow sure is great, what would it take to get him.”
I guarantee every time that could afford him has had a conversation like that
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Team*
I hate when I type to fast….or in this case type the wrong word completely :(
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
seriously
the hatred for this trade is so overboard it almost seems fabricated
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME
WaPost gave Cards good press
said our top 3 (Carp, Waino, Garcia) better than Phillies (Big & Little Roys, Hamels)
"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning
Jake was an American League pitcher
and we know how ESPN love the junior league…so Buster loving this isn’t too big of a suprise I guess.
Boy a frosty cold Budweiser would be great about now"…long pause…then an "aahhh". --Mike Shannon
So we got Westbrook
he’s better than Suppan….but will it matter if we still struggle to score? Sorry but this has been running through my mind as I read these posts.
Boy a frosty cold Budweiser would be great about now"…long pause…then an "aahhh". --Mike Shannon
As long as he pitches better than Soup.
I’ll live with it.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 31, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
18 inning perfect game?
he probably has to, that’s probably how long it’s going to take to score a run.
well thanksfully he's not pitching on a Thur or Fri
where we suck to score. back-to-back weeks shut out Thur & Fri, with the 10th inning as the exception (obviously)
Suppon still scheduled to pitch tonight...
My first memory of Cardinals baseball is seeing Darrell Porter jump into Bruce Sutter's arms on October 20, 1982!
Ticker Tape Parade
for Greenwood (is he Lee’s boy?) tomorrow at noon in Davenport…..everybody be there!
so is westbrook starting tonight?
because i’m going to go downtown if he is.
follow me on twitter @nickg105, @Rams_Fan_Voice
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 31, 2010 2:53 PM EDT reply actions
Wish we could have turned Ludwick into Oswalt/Haren
As opposed to Jake Westbrook, but this is a decent deal.
Yay beer!
Sorry, I was watching family guy a few minutes ago where Lois tells Pete not to drink at the party and he does: “BOOOOOO Lois, Yay beer!”
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
hour and 6 minutes and no rumblings yet
doesn’t look good i say
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
Jayson Stark tweets
We could have a fun hour coming up. One club says volume of calls is “insane” right now. I’ve had 3 “gotta gos” in last 20 minutes!
at least lilly and theriot are no longer cubs
traded to dodgers for blake dewitt
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
I saw that on ESPN and thought,
“Man, the Walrus is really moving around a lot lately. Oakland, Toronto, Houston, and now the Cubs.”
whoever is an ESPN insider tell me what this says
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?name=law_keith&id=5426314&action=login&appRedirect=http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog%3fname%3dlaw_keith%26id%3d5426314
i've heard it's just him bashing the trade.
yawn.
follow me on twitter @nickg105, @Rams_Fan_Voice
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 31, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Keith Law like Alex Trebek
Can suck it
by CarpIsMyManCrush on Jul 31, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
not really
westbrook could be the next great duncan rehab project
greenwood projects for middle relief
rasmus will play more
cards probably gave too much anyway b/c jay can’t keep it up
This isn't an accurate characterization of the article at all.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
fair enough.
it was just a text from a friend. sorry that it wasn’t accurate.
follow me on twitter @nickg105, @Rams_Fan_Voice
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 31, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Post the contents of the article
I can’t read it.
I will need to take a look for the link
But I got ESPN the magazine that comes with Insider access for only $5 a year
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 31, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
he likes westbrook in the cardinal rotation
but concerned it creates a hole in the OF when jay comes back to earth, same as everyone else, not bashing anything
He doesn't bash it too much.
He basically says what we already know. Hurts the offense once Jon Jay returns to being Jon Jay. But says Westbrook is likely Duncan’s dream pitcher.
"I got to get Dr. Freeze off my twig right now."-Nyjer Morgan
by flipthebird15 on Jul 31, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess that is really the sum of the whole matter:
How fast and far does Jay’s production fall off? There’s a world of difference between some natural regression and Bo Hart, for instance.
Excuse me....My humblest apologies to the readers for that error in judgment
Should read- "There’s a world of difference between some natural regression and ……………, for instance.
Again, the author apologizes for his inconsiderate indiscretion.
HFS the WWL blows
no trade deadline coverage, only XGames & tennis, D league cast on WWLNews kind of following it
Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars
Time to get MLB Network
Although they’re mostly talking about Berkman to NY and Lilly to Dodgers.
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
to all the posters saying people are overreacting:
I think you’re forgetting that we’re not just losing Luddy, WERE LOSING A MEME DAMMIT! And you know that at VEB…don’t say it unless you meme it
-wick becomes
-wood
…
this trade blows.
"He’s in his own world out there. He says he doesn’t cuss. I disagree." - Skip Schumaker on Jason Motte
STOP TRYING TO TRADE SHELBY MILLER!!
We got 'wood,
and got blown…….away?
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 31, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
okay, so what rhymes with Westbrook?
My first memory of Cardinals baseball is seeing Darrell Porter jump into Bruce Sutter's arms on October 20, 1982!
Duncan's book
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
Overpaid.
"He's the straw that makes the drink go."
by Thelonious Dunk on Jul 31, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
"not very good?"
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
Great Trade
Here is what I do not understand. How can we expect to win the division when we continually send out 2 below average starters out of every 5 games. We are counting on winning every single start of Waino Carp and Jaime and accepting losing those two games every five days. Now instead of relying on losing those games we have a legitimate professional who fits well with Dave Duncan’s groundball style of pitching. Have you seen that sinker? I think it fits perfectly. Yes, we lose a great professional hitter. But let’s be honest John Jay was the best hitter in our lineup the last month. Yes, we all expect him to come back to earth but what if he continues to hit. Ride him til he bucks you. And by that time I fully expect Brendan to continue his rise his average is actually above the Mendoza line finally, Albert will finally be Albert again and Colby will benefit from the consistent play and be the hitter we know he can be. I believe we will be a solid offensive team shortly. As for Middle Infield help I think that comes in the form of Felipe Lopez who can move over to platoon status when David Freese returns. Now we have Felipe bouncing between three infield positions. With plenty of depth. I like the trade.
World Series Championship 2010.
This deal embodies a lot of the complexities of our team
1) Our top 3 SP have been great, but the bottom 2 are a black hole
2) Jamie Garcia’s ERA will rise and he’s running out of innings for the season (not to mention post-season)
3) We appear to have a glut of OFs, although I think that’s a bit of a myth. (I love Colby, but he’s streakier than Edmonds with less talent, at least so far. The other “depth” puts a lot of expectation on unproven rookies with success in small samples.)
4) A bigger story seems to be payroll. Interesting that we’re finally faced with the question of how much must we sacrifice to keep Pujols as a Cardinal.
5) This deal shouldn’t seem so scary, but our hitters almost all been underperforming or injured.
Luddy was one of my faves and I’ll miss him dearly. Here’s hoping Westbrook looks good after being covered with a li’l Dave Duncan pixie dust.
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
Westbrook will be pretty good
Just looking at what is going on with him, I suspect he will be better than a lot expect in the NL.
Sounds like someone's drinking a lotta Kool-Aid
That’s a lot of speculation.
And RE: Freese
The jury’s still out on him. No question he has the talent. But successful MLB players must be disciplined and work extremely hard to maintain consistency and health. Not sure he has that ability.
I think he's a hard worker
Some players bodies just break down and he may have issues there.
ken tries to console us..
Ken_Rosenthal
Rationale on #Cardinals trading Ludwick. They won nine straight w/o him, salary will rise from 5.45M in 11 in final arb year. #Padres #MLB
It was eight straight
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 31, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Westbrook?
Do we really need to add more “suck” to the back end of our rotation?
I empathize with Luddy fans. Tough to see him go. All he did was keep his mouth shut, play hard, and produce. I understand the rationale in moving him, but do not understand why the return was so weak.
And to the Craig/Jay flag-wavers, I’ll say this: When either of those players post a season remotely close to Luddy’s ’08 romp, get back to me. ;)
westbrook > suppan
but i agree with everything else you said.
Albert's grand slam, 7/3/09
Waino's CG, 7/4/10
@zoomzoomj88
Fire Tony LaRussa
Forget the bench coach - the Cardinals need to hire a baserunning coach. Hello, Larry Walker.
Westbrook can actually fill a rotation spot
But I am worried that he could break down late in the year given he is coming off of tommy john just like Garcia.
Ludwick was just a professional baseball player and he never complained even when he had to deal with all of Larussa’s platooning. Not only did he have a great ’08, but he turned himself into an excellent defensive outfielder and fairly clutch hitter.
That being said, Jon Jay looks like the real deal to me and appears to be a perfect #2 hitter in front of Pujols.
they don't have to
not with colby having the year he is having
I really think some people are just in love with hating any trade
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME
Probably...
But I’m not one of those people. I was on board with the Holliday trade. Even on board with the Edmonds trade. That move for Khalil Greene? Not so much. I almost popped a vein when I heard about that move. I was even alright with the DeRosa move, even though we gave up a future MLB Closer.
At first blush, this one appears to be a win for SDP and CLE, but not much gained here in STL. Even considering OF depth and financials.
fyi
memphis-nola relay on cstv now
stav at first
pinto in his second inning
m lamb at 3rd for nola
cazana played right
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
forgot the important stat
memphis has left 14 on base through 8
i guess lobster season is open in LA
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
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