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List O' Losses

*EDIT: So I figured, what they hey.  I've got a running tally of the losses and my assessment of who's to blame going thus far.  Why not keep it up?  I'll try to update this every day following a loss.* 

*EDIT #2 - Title changed, as I think we've pretty well resolved the question of how the trade deadline was going to play out*

Howdy fellow VEB-ers.  Just wanted to throw something out there in light of all the Oswalt-mania.  It seems to be pretty commonly accepted that the Cardinals need another starting pitcher in order to compete with the Reds for the division.  I do not, however, think acquiring a pitcher – any pitcher, be he an Oswalt, a Westbrook, a Guthrie, or whomever – would be the best utilization of the Cardinals resources. 

 

As we all know, baseball games are won by doing two things – scoring runs and preventing the opponent from scoring runs.  To date, the Cardinals have been the second best team in the majors in the run-prevention department, allowing only 363 runs thus far on the season.  Only San Diego (338) has allowed fewer.  This is even with the nigh-abysmal, Suppan-ian, Hawskworth-ensteinian and Ottavinal performances out of the back two slots of the rotation recently. 

 

On the other side of the equation, the Cardinals don’t fare nearly as well.  Their 442 runs scored ranks them 14th in MLB (8th in the NL), within a few runs either way of such offensive juggernauts as the Diamondbacks and Giants.  I don’t think I’m breaking any new ground by saying that the Catcher, Second Base and Shortstop positions have been the biggest underperformers thus far. 

 

Looking solely at those runs scored and allowed numbers, however, seemed insufficient to me to paint the whole picture, so I looked at each loss and put together a brief summary of my view on what aspect of the team was responsible for each one, based on the box scores and, to a lesser extent, my memory of the games.  "Wash" simply means that the loss can’t really be pinned primarily on any one aspect of the team.  

 

Loss #1 4/8 – 2-1 Cincy, Motte, 9th inning HR.  Shut down by Arroyo – on offense

 

Loss #2 4/11 – 8-7 Milwaukee, 3 runs to tie in top of 9th, McClellan 9th inning homer to McGehee – wash

 

Loss #3 4/15 – 5-1 Houston, Bud Norris shuts Cards down for 5, Lohse allows 2 over 7 innings, Boggs gives up three in the eighth – on offense, but arguably Boggs had a role, so wash

 

Loss #4 4/17 – 2-1 Mets in 20, Cards score 1 run in 20 innings, waste Garcia gem – on offense

 

Loss #5 4/20 – 9-7 D-backs, Cards shell Haren, D-backs shell Lohse, game tied after 4, Boggs/McClellan allow a run in the 6th to lose it – on the pitching

 

Loss #6 4/23 – 4-1 Giants, Lincecum dances around runners allowed, Garcia merely average – wash

 

Loss #7 4/24 – 2-0 Giants, Wainwright good, Zito better – on offense

 

Loss #8 3-2 Cincy, Cueto and a parade of relievers outduel Penny; Motte and McClellan throw three shutout innings at the back end of the game – on offense

 

Loss #9 5/4 2-1 Philly in 10, Cole Hamels allows 1 run over 8 innings, Wainwright gem wasted – on offense

 

Loss #10 5/5 4-0 Philly, Kyle Kendrick shuts down Cards, Penny, pen give up 4 - wash

 

Loss #11 5/6 7-2 Philly, Halladay good, Lohse not sharp – on pitching

 

Loss #12 5/8 2-0 Pirates, Karstens shuts down Cards over 6 – on offense

 

Loss #13 5/11 6-3 Houston, Penny gives up 4 runs, none earned – on defense

 

Loss #14 5/12 9-6 Houston, Lohse gives up 9, 4 earned – wash (on defense and pitching)

 

Loss #15 5/13 4-1 Houston, Bud F*****g Norris again – on offense

 

Loss #16 5/15 4-3 Cincy, Waino not especially sharp, allows 10 baserunners in 6 innings, Leake good enough – wash

 

Loss #17 5/16 7-2 Cincy, Penny hit hard, Arroyo in good form – on pitching

 

Loss #18 5/19 5-1 Marlins, pen implosion after Garcia goes 5 scoreless, offense shut down by Annibal Sanchez – wash

 

Loss #19 5/22 10-7 Angels, Lohse, pen not good – on pitching

 

Loss #20 5/25 1-0 Padres, Wainwright allows 1 run and gets the loss, shut down by Jon Garland – on offense

 

Loss #21 5/26 2-1 Padres in 13, Boggs gives up a walk-off homer after Cards can only scratch one across in 13 innings – on offense

 

Loss #22 5/29 5-0 Cubbies, Carlos F-ing Silva shuts down Cards, but pitching gave up 5 – wash

 

Loss #23 6/1 – 9-8 Cincy, Cards beat up on Cueto, but Walters and Reyes made sure it wasn’t enough – on pitching

 

Loss #24 6/6 – 4-3 Milwaukee, Cards can’t solve Parra, 2 errors let an unearned run across on Garcia’s watch – wash, on offense/defense

 

Loss #25 6/7 12-4 Dodgers, PJ and the Hawk equally bad, though it’d make a nice name for a cable television detective series – on pitching

 

Loss #26 6/8 1-0 Dodgers, Hiroki Kuroda shuts down Cards – on offense

 

Loss #27 6/9 4-3 Dodgers, Waino not sharp, Luddy 3-run homer made this closer than it probably felt like at the time – wash

 

Loss #28 6/12 7-2 D-backs, Haren sharp, Ottavino and Bird’s bats not – wash

 

Loss #29 6/13 7-5 D-backs, Carpenter struggled a bit, Diner and K-Mac gave up 2 runs each – on pitching

 

Loss #30 6/16 2-1 Mariners, Vargas shuts down Cards’ bats, good Garcia outing wasted – on offense

 

Loss #31 6/20 3-2 Oakland, Cards’ can’t hit Cahill hard, Athletic’s pen scoreless – on offense

 

Loss #32 6/24 5-0 Blue Jays, Wainwright not sharp, Cards only get six baserunners in 8 innings – wash

 

Loss #33 6/25 4-2 Royals, Soup not bad, Greinke pretty good – wash

 

Loss #34 6/27 10-3 Royals, Garcia shelled, Chen and pen good for the Royals – wash

 

Loss #35 6/30 4-2 D-backs, Suppan acceptable, Cards 2-11 in the RISP – on offense

 

Loss #36 7/1 4-1 Milwaukee, Wolf and the pen shut down the Cards – on offense

 

Loss #37 7/3 12-5 Milwaukee, Carp lit up, defense bad – wash (defense and pitching)

 

Loss #38 7/6 12-9 Colorado, Bullpen-pocalypse 1 – pitching

 

Loss #39 7/7 8-7 Colorado, Bullpen-pocalypse 2 – pitching

 

Loss #40 7/8 4-2 Colorado, Ubaldo gives 1 run over 8, Street gives up one, but gets the save - offense

 

Loss #41 7/10 4-1 Houston, Myers gives up 1 run over 8 - offense

 

Loss #42 7/22 2-0 Philly, Hamels, pen 1-hit Cards through 11 – offense

 

Loss #43 7/23 5-0 Cubbies, Wells allows 5 hits over 7, scoreless streak reaches 20 innings - offense

 

Loss #44 7/24 6-5 Cubbies, Gorzelany unimpressive, Hawk vomit-inducing, offense misfires in the RISP, Benny Hill music all around – wash

 

Loss #45 7/27 10-2 Mets, Wainwright's on the road, so he's mortal, offense goes to sleep 'cause they're down by more than 2 - wash. 

 

Loss #46 7/29, 4-0 Mets, Hawk "acceptable," for him at least.  R.A. Dickey, who was relieved for the Twinkies last season, allows only 6 baserunners over 8.1 innings.  Seriously, how does a knuckleballer only walk 2 guys?  Where is the plate discipline?  This may seem overly generous to Hawk, but I'm giving pinning this one on the offense. 

 

Loss #47 8/2, 9-4 Astros, "Bullpen-pocalypse 3 - This Time It's At Home!" - on the pitching. 

 

Loss #48 8/3, 18-4 Astros, I think our pitchers may have been using softballs, Garcia not tip top, 'pen bad - on the pitching

 

Loss #49 8/7, 5-4 Fish in 10, Westy solid, a few outs on the basepaths, hitters scramble back to tie it in 9th, Frankie loses it in 10th, plenty of blame to go around - wash

 

Loss attribution distribution:

 

Defense – 1

Offense – 19

Pitching – 11

Wash – 18

 

On the theory that a bat would help the "offense" losses and the "wash" losses, and given that the Cardinals are already proficient at preventing runs, it is my contention that a bat should be the Cardinals primary priority in the next 5 days before the trading deadline. 

 

Given that Yadi’s not going anywhere (side note, was anyone else absolutely certain "GIDP" would be the outcome when he came up with the bases loaded, 1 out last night), middle infield seems like the best place to look.  I’ve liked Dan Uggla for a long time, but Kelly Johnson would be an upgrade as well.  I think, however, SS would be the better position for an upgrade, as Skip has been better lately, Ryan just seems lost, and Greene seems versatile enough to play all three non-Albert infield positions.  Stehpen Drew would be my first target were I the GM. 

 

(Full disclosure: I’m not well-enough versed in statistical methods to get into extreme detail on things like regression and scoring distribution patterns, so my "analysis," such as it is, has been done with a broadsword rather than a scalpel.  I’m sure what I’m saying here can and will be picked apart by those who are better suited to such tasks than I.  I invite such criticisms and welcome them.) 

Comment 149 comments  |  6 recs  | 

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True story

One that can play 2nd, 3rd or would be preferred.

this thread is all Aaron Mile's fault.

by Evilfrog on Jul 26, 2010 12:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Good Post

I think something came out of this that I have been saying and been trashed for saying it. Look at the number of bullpen losses in this grouping. Our bullpen has been statistically good, but piling those numbers up during games when the Cards were way ahead or when the team was behind.

I see your point that the offense was impotent for many of these losses and for many of the wins also. (They rank 14th in spite of having many games where they scored a lot of runs, making their day to day output even worse.) However, who could have made a big enough difference to win the games that were lost here?

The offensive problems on this team are many.

Lost baserunners: This team has lost a ton of runners on the bases…mostly due to bad baserunning.

Hitting with RISP: Holiday was blamed early for this, but most of the team can share this blame. (Although Ludwick, Pujols, and Freese have been decent)

Striking out: The Cards have done this frequently and usually at the most critical moments in the game. How many runners could have advanced or scored if these guys could have just put the bat on the ball? Rasmus is a whiff machine, but Pujols and Molina are striking out at much higher rates than their career averages.

Top of the order: The original top of the order (Shumaker, Ryan) have been horrible at getting on base this year. Lopez and Ludwick should at least improve that.

Double Plays: Is it a rule that when the bases are loaded and 1 out that Molina has to be the hitter and he has to ground into a double play? We all love Yadi, but pinch hit anybody for him in this situation would be an improvement. (Even Ryan or a pitcher)

Manufacturing runs: This team doesn’t do it. They rarely bunt, their hitters are missing too much to hit and run, they are unbearable slow footed as a team, and they dont’ steal bases. They lose aggression in spots because the entire offense is built around Albert. (which is ironic that they still are losing tons of baserunners.)

I agree that more offense would help, but if Pujols, Holiday, Schumaker, Ryan, Rasmus, Ludwick, Molina, Freese, and Lopez just hit like an average year for them, this team has plenty of offense. However, since that is not happening, 2nd, Short, or 3rd is really the place where the upgrade would have to take place. Good offensive players at those positions are hard to find and cost alot.

Starting Pitching: They have been looking at this for a few reasons. There was a decent amount available, and I think they are convinced that Penny is not coming back and are skeptical about how effective Lohse will be. The Hawk-Soup combo has kept them in most games, but their lack of innings hurts the team and the bullpen. One more dependable starter would be like an upgrade to the rotation and bullpen.

How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Jul 26, 2010 12:51 PM EDT reply actions  

30 of 44 losses we score 3 or fewer runs

not oswalt or anyone else is likely to change that very much, it at all.

i’ll agree re base running, and for me, throw in 3rd base coaching decisions

all is part of offense, but clearly a higher obp guy would be a big help

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Jul 26, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

that's probably the same for most teams, though
30 of 44 losses we score 3 or fewer runs

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2010 6:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

may be, but

key to me is that we had those 30 games with 3 or fewer runs
hard to win those games
need to plot our run production game by game and see how bimodal that is

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Jul 28, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

i'm still of the belief we are a feast or famine offense

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Jul 28, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

see today's post for bimodality

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Jul 30, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

interesting that you say brendan ryan looks lost after he finally starts hitting in the cubs series

I’d like to keep him for his D, he made some important plays and saves the pitching staff fairly often. skip just doesn’t play D very well so I think either 3rd or 2nd would be a good upgrade spot (if you upgrade at third move Lopez to 2nd)

chief justice

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 26, 2010 1:19 PM EDT reply actions  

but I agree

I think more hitting might be a better upgrade than pitching…. except we don’t know for sure if Lohse will make it back soon.

chief justice

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 26, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wigginton is REALLY bad in the field

worse than anyone who’s played for the club in recent years, I think (although oddly his UZR at 2B isn’t too bad, not sure what that says). If they’re giving him away more or less I think he’d be a nice bat, but we might as well just use Craig at 3B. He can’t be any worse.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2010 6:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

My "lost" comment was based more on the season as a whole.

It’s going to take more than three games to convince me that Ryan has settled into something resemling productivity on offense.

Stil, I wouldn’t cry if Kelly Johnson replaced the Sklopez platton at 2nd, rather than Drew replacing Ryan at short.

by dronemc on Jul 26, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

too rich for my blood, unless we trade him in the offseason

he’s going to kill in arb and will probably cost arm/leg.Still would be nice though.

I am the Batman .
@CodeeG

by CodyG on Jul 26, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

also I'm not sure what the Marlins would be asking for,

their OF seems too full for Jay, and craig isn’t much help with sanchez/morrison. I’m guessing they would want Anderson and some low minor guys(with +upside) to revamp the farm.

I am the Batman .
@CodeeG

by CodyG on Jul 26, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would think they'd want pitching

"He’s in his own world out there. He says he doesn’t cuss. I disagree." - Skip Schumaker on Jason Motte
STOP TRYING TO TRADE SHELBY MILLER!!

by BVHeck on Jul 27, 2010 2:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

I dunno

His two other good offensive years, 2007 and 2008, show a fairly significantly split in either direction. He was better away in 2007 and better at home in 2008.
I realize Arizona is a great hitter’s park, but he doesn’t need to replicate his stat line from the rest of the year to be an improvement over Skip Schumaker. Lopez is at third until Freese comes back, and who knows when that will actually happen? I don’t think a partial season’s splits prove that Kelly Johnson is not at least a good hitter, even if he is being aided by his home park.
Also, don’t the other NL West parks besides Colorado suppress offense? Maybe it’s only Petco, but I thought San Fran and L.A. were pitcher’s parks.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Jul 26, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe not a significant enough upgrade to bother with

but I think he’s clearly a better hitter, despite this year’s split. And his defense might also be better overall than Skip.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Jul 26, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Johnson is an above-average hitter

something none of our MIFs (other than maybe floppy) can say, and he doesn’t have a significant platoon split (in fact, he has a slight reverse-split) so he could play every day. He’s probably an average second baseman in the field.

Just because he’s hitting better at home than away this season is more or less meaningless. He’s not as good a hitter as his record this year, but we all know that (and that’s basically because of his excellent home record) but his career wOBA is .347, which is well above average, and what we can expect from him going forward (it’s better than Floppy’s this year, and nearly as good as Floppy’s career year in 2009. It’s pretty much what we’d expect from Ryan Ludwick, just a bit less).

I’d love to get Johnson if the D’Backs are in fire-sale mode. They’re wanting low minors guys with upside, if the Haren trade is anything to go by. I’d be willing to give up someone of that sort for Johnson.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2010 6:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

I've been wanting to get Johnson for a couple years

We just don’t have a middle infielder who is an all-around good starter right now. Lopez could be, but we only got him this year and they seem to only be playing him everyday because of Freese being injured. There is too much hoping for one of our MIF to get better at skill X while remaining good enough at skill Y, which just hasn’t happened.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Jul 27, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

We could've signed him for next to nothing this off-season, following a BABIP-ugly 2009.

shame, really. I think we were all taken in by Skip’s solid end to 2009!

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

As much as I like Skip, I still would have been happy to put Kelly in his spot and have Skip be a bench guy. That is, even before his sucky 2010.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Jul 28, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ah. Not sure why I thought that, then...

maybe it’s just because their pitching has been good lately but not their hitting.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Jul 26, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also,

I just looked at Johnson’s 3-year (‘07-’09) splits at the mothership (because I couldn’t find it on BR). This season’s the only one he’s had such a dramatic home-road split. The question, I suppose, is whether the 3-year splits are more represenative than his current split.

by dronemc on Jul 26, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

His career is probably more representative.

And he’s been about 12 runs above average with the bat, per season.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2010 6:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting graph today at Beyond the Boxscore

Here. The Cards are right in the middle of the pack in baserunners per run. So they don’t strand runners at an especially high or low rate. They also have the tenth highest ISO in the majors, which initially shocked me, but only a handful of points separates the group of teams in the middle, so it’s not as great as it seems. A little above average. Their OBP as a team is 12th in the majors, solidly above average at .334. Lastly, our team wOBA is 13th in the majors at .327, again, right around average. Our team fielding also seems around average by team UZR and team UZR/150 innings.

We are a very good team because of our pitching. If our offense or defense were significantly above average, which they aren’t currently, this could be a really great team.

Also interesting: We are currently tied for first the majors (yes, first) in team ERA, but only 9th and 8th in team FIP and xFIP, respectively. This is due to our starting pitching rotation being second and first in FIP and xFIP but our bullpen being much worse that. Also, groundballs have something to do with the disparity in ERA versus the defense independent stats I would guess.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Jul 26, 2010 1:23 PM EDT reply actions  

Yay for fangraphs stats!

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Jul 26, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Our 2B and 3B production has basically been worse than replacement level for this season

It was obvious we could use a middle infield upgrade coming into the season, and now we’ve hit pretty much the worst case scenario. Schumaker and Ryan are probably above replacement level players at their positions, but not enough for a contending team. We will struggle offensively, especially in the postseason, with a lineup featuring Ryan, Schumaker, Molina, and the pitcher. With four guys who have no discernable plus hitting skill, whether it be power, on base ability, hitting for average, or speed, our lineup is just not dangerous and no matter how great Holliday and Pujols are, with some Rasmus and Ludwick sprinkled in, the Cardinals will have problems.

SS and 2B are two of the hardest positions to get production at in the majors, though, so I’m not sure what the plan of attack should be there. Getting Freese back and moving Lopez to 2B seems like the easiest upgrade, so that’s one reason why I’d be a bit apprehensive about trading for a 2B like Johnson or Uggla. Lopez’s glove is fine at 2B and an improvement over Schumaker, but it isn’t good enough at SS to put it there.

There are not too many options if we’re looking to trade for a SS.

Stephen Drew is the big name people keep talking about, but he’s probably not available and would probably take more than we can pay to get.

Yunel Escobar would have been perfect but we missed the boat on that one.

I’ve seen Jhonny Peralta mentioned as a guy we could use at 3B, and he played SS earlier in his career, but he’s a minus defender at both positions if the metrics can be trusted.

Tampa Bay could be an interesting trade partner, as they have Jason Bartlett and Reid Brignac, along with Sean Rodriguez, in their middle infield and will probably have to get rid of one eventually, but with heading to the postseason they could be content to keep the depth considering they don’t really need a piece that we could give them anywhere else on the field.

If I were the Cardinals, I’d look at some blocked AAA guys who don’t have a chance on their current teams. I think Chris Nelson could be a perfect fit at SS or 2B and the Rockies don’t seem in a hurry to give him a chance in the MLB despite his strong AAA numbers and performance in his extremely limited callup earlier this year.

Other than that there just isn’t enough talent out there. The Cardinals are likely stuck with Ryan for a while, so hopefully his struggles with the bat are behind him. Even if Freese comes back and we can move Lopez to 2nd, perhaps acquiring a bat there makes sense simply because that’s the only spot we can realistically upgrade at this point.

by oplaid on Jul 26, 2010 1:42 PM EDT reply actions  

disagree with the 3b production being down this season

just going by OPS+ 3b has is at 104 which is average, which is is better than what any replacement level hitter would do.

I am the Batman .
@CodeeG

by CodyG on Jul 26, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

also, did you even watch 2009?

joe thurston,Barden… I won’t complain about lopez playing third.

I am the Batman .
@CodeeG

by CodyG on Jul 26, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

What about Christian Guzman?

I think SS is our biggest need and Drew may be too expensive as you said.
I don’t know how much Guzman would cost in terms of prospects, but the Nats might eat some salary. He’s in a contract year and is making $8 million this year. Also, his .287/.331/.366 looks a lot better than Ryan’s .196/.261/.282. He’s an average defender at SS and 2B, and has also played RF(below average) this year. He’s not my first choice but could be one of the more affordable choices in terms of prospects.

Onubon > Gates

by Carneros on Jul 26, 2010 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

no

just by looking at WAR alone, boog has only been worth .4 less. Not even an upgrade when you consider the added cost to payroll.

I am the Batman .
@CodeeG

by CodyG on Jul 26, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

So 90 points in BA and 70 in OBP mean nothing?

He’s also score 21 more runs on a lesser offense. That’s the difference between being 8th in the NL in runs scored and being top 3, if you figure he has a few more runs scored on a better offense and the few more RBIs he might get over Ryan.
You can’t score unless you’re on base and Ryan is on base rarely.
And we’d only have to pay him a couple million if that.
I think he’s an affordable upgrade. He’ll basically be what Ryan was supposed to with the bat, and Ryan hasn’t been that great on defense this year, so Guzman won’t be that much of a downgrade on that side of things.
And if they were making the same amount of money, he would be an upgrade, which is all that matters, we most likely wouldn’t be paying him anyway.
I’d rather have Stephen Drew, but Guzman would probably be much cheaper.

Onubon > Gates

by Carneros on Jul 26, 2010 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

see Guzman regularly here in VA

No, we don’t want him.

"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning

by gocards62 on Jul 26, 2010 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

i think he probably was, back in the day

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Jul 26, 2010 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

he’s over-weight and the wrong side of 30 now, though.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2010 6:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

bad defense

"He’s in his own world out there. He says he doesn’t cuss. I disagree." - Skip Schumaker on Jason Motte
STOP TRYING TO TRADE SHELBY MILLER!!

by BVHeck on Jul 27, 2010 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sure, a bat would be nice...

But it’s hardly necessary. When freeze, rasmus and ludwick are all healthy we will have a few too many hitters (didn’t we just have to send Craig to Memphis?). I think with Freese coming back at 3rd we can play Lopez all over the field (short vs righties and 2nd vs lefties).

Plus, the market for hitters is rather bare this year. Wiggington and Peralta aren’t going to be huge upgrades and I’d rather just hold onto whatever mid level prospect we’d have to trade than get a 2 month rental who won’t make an impact.

Pitching on the other hand is another story. With lohse and penny seemingly never coming back (I know lohse is pitching today, but I’m very very skeptical he’ll be better than hawksworth) and suppan being the 4 starter who can’t throw more than 5 innings a guy like Westbrook who can go out and give us 7 innings is more valuable. It will save the bullpen all while upgrading the rotation. Plus I think if we are willing to eat all of westbrooks remaining money we can get him cheap (in terms of prospects). And the maybe claiming s guy like sheets on waivers could be a nice pickup in mid September for the 2/3 week push to the finish line.

by lopey986 on Jul 26, 2010 1:48 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

also westbrook plays duncan-ball so well.

58.8 % career GB rate
2.80 career BB/9
4.92 k/9 career

looks a lot like pineiro besides that .80 HR/9

I am the Batman .
@CodeeG

by CodyG on Jul 26, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha yes I did

Its rather easy on the iPhone, I just have difficulty navigating the larger threads.

Yeah Westbrook is pretty much the Duncan ball pitcher to a T. I’m just tired of our starters throwing 5 innings (lookin at you Garcia, suppan and hawksworth) and killing our bullpen.

by lopey986 on Jul 26, 2010 2:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Apparently the market for Westbrook is not so hot

I would be really excited if we swept in there and got him for cheap.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Jul 26, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

he gets something like an extra 3 million if traded basically so that is scaring a lot of teams off. i’d rather pay more money than deal better prospects honestly.

by lopey986 on Jul 27, 2010 7:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yup

I think we could probably afford to absorb three million. I could be wrong.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Jul 27, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good analysis

A couple of things:

  • Beware the Kelly Johnson Home/Road split. He’s hitting .316/.411/.620/1.031 at home and .238/.317/.375/.692 on the road. A .350 point difference in OPS? HFS Batman!
  • That away line for Kelly Johnson? Not much worse than the combined second basemen for the Cardinals this year, who are hitting .273/.331/.378/.709 Blecchhhhhh.
  • Trading for Uggla makes the most sense on two different fronts: 1. He’s the perfect 2 hole hitter for LaRussa, which would move Ludwick down in the order to 6th. 2. Lopez can play 3B full time and lead off, providing he shows up the fucking ballpark on time. I don’t take this stuff lightly from a guy who’s been accused of quitting on his team before.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 26, 2010 4:44 PM EDT reply actions  

Uggla seems like a fine choice to me as well.

Just kinda funny that absolutely nobody wanted him after his all-star game debacle, and now quite a few people do.

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)

by Taskmaster on Jul 26, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

but does uggla mean we trade miller?

also he’ll cost 10M+ next season, can we afford that?

I am the Batman .
@CodeeG

by CodyG on Jul 26, 2010 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

nope

"He’s in his own world out there. He says he doesn’t cuss. I disagree." - Skip Schumaker on Jason Motte
STOP TRYING TO TRADE SHELBY MILLER!!

by BVHeck on Jul 27, 2010 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Didn't we have a long home/road split conversatino regarding

Matt Holliday and how you shouldn’t rely on splits as indicative of true talent level? Because I’m pretty sure we did and I’m pretty sure that Matt Holliday has (anecdote) proven that right so far.

Silly humans, this world is for robots.

by azruavatar on Jul 26, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thank you

I have been very skeptical about less than a year of Johnson’s split being shown as a reason to not get him.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Jul 26, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's really suspect.

1) Players play better at home regardless of the park.
2) You’re taking a small sample size (~400PAs) and splitting it smaller.

A park adjusted projection that incorporated multiple years of info is the way to go. It’s not like Kelly is an unknown. Most systems had him a little above average. ZiPS liked him for a .361 wOBA prior to the season, he currently has a .379 wOBA. There’s little reason to get worked up about his splits.

Silly humans, this world is for robots.

by azruavatar on Jul 26, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

There's plenty of reason to get worked up

and it isn’t just about his splits.

It’s about the fact that he’s having a career year after being a below average hitter for two straight seasons in a park that’s very similar to ours.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 28, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sure

But both of Holliday’s splits were above average and the difference between his home and away splits from his time in Colorado had a difference of about 100 points of OPS. It was clear that he was an above average to great hitter that just happened to play at Coors field. I also remember getting laughed out of a thread when I made the point that most hitters hit better at home than away, with a few exceptions (places like PetCo), because they are used to the surroundings, batting eye, etc.

Johnson is Albert Pujols at home and Skip Schumaker away from home. That’s a HUGE difference, over .300 points of OPS. Not only that, his career numbers at Turner Field also are dead average and .100 points lower than his OPS this season, and he OPS’d .660 for 2009.

Why again would we trade for a guy having a career year that is OPSing over 1.069 in a hitters ballpark?

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 28, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Average slash line for NL second basemen:

.266/.333/.389/.722

So, we’re slightly below average. I can’t help but feel that, by season’s end, we’ll be slightly above average. I think Skip will continue to gradually ebb upward in production and that Freese will return, shifting Lopez back to the MIF.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 26, 2010 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think it's a reach to think Skip can reach league average or better on offense

but whoa boy, I am ready to call this second base experiment a disaster because of that glove

I am pleasantly pleased, thankyouverymuch

by mattyfrommo on Jul 26, 2010 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

he was better in the field last year

i don’t know what happened, unless his poor (and at times unlucky) hitting this year has really gotten in his head and affected his defense.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Jul 26, 2010 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

answer = 2 yr contract

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Jul 26, 2010 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did Rooney ever give a return time for Freese?

He and Claiborne were going to ask Mo last night during the radio broadcast.

I’m pessimistic about Freese’s return because the club has said nothing about him.

"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning

by gocards62 on Jul 26, 2010 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I haven't heard anything on Freese's timetable,

since the mixed bag reported by Straussicorn.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 26, 2010 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

It doesn't matter if Skip hits for league average

He’d be barely above replacement level with his glove, if he does that.

by oplaid on Jul 26, 2010 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Without question.

I would think that Lopez would take up a fair amount of those defensive innings, though, as Freese steps back in to full-time duties at the hot corner.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 27, 2010 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

That away line for Kelly Johnson? Not much worse than the combined second basemen for the Cardinals this year, who are hitting .273/.331/.378/.709 Blecchhhhhh.

Cherry pick much? Jesus.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2010 6:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think it's cherry-picking at all.

It’s a legitimate point considering the guy hits in a pure hitters park. Now, I don’t think that Johnson will immediately regress that that statline, but you can’t seriously expect him to hit anywhere close to how he hit at the beginning of the season.

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)

by Taskmaster on Jul 27, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of course it's cherry picking

Johnson’s career line is .266/.350/.443. His ZiPS projection for the rest of the season is .277/.356/.499. Why the hell are his 2010 road stats (in 194 plate appearances, with a BABIP of 30 points below his career level) more relevant?

No-one expects Johnson to continue to hit his 2010 “home” line, because it’s unsustainable. No-one should expect him to hit his 2010 “road” line either, because it’s unsustainable. He’s an above-average hitter, as he’s always been, and that is exactly what you should expect if you acquire the guy. I don’t even think that’s a particularly difficult or controversial concept.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 28, 2010 6:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not saying he's going to "hit" either line

I’m AM saying that his 2010 stats are really inflated by an unsustainable home split, and that if we’re paying the price for an .850 OPS guy, I’d much rather pay it for a guy I would expect to be an .850 OPS guy going forward (Uggla, who also happens to have better on base ability and play better defense), than for a guy having a career year in a hitters park.

I’d be surprised if Johnson put up better than .780 playing for the Cardinals the rest of the year. Sure, it’s better than what we have (which I also pointed out, btw) but it’s not the best we could get, and he’s a rental player as I’m sure he’ll be looking for a long term contract that we can’t give him at the end of the season.

If we’re giving up nothing in talent for $800,000 worth of production for the rest of the year and getting a type B comp pick out of the deal, then let’s do it. But let’s not assume he’s going to be a .850 OPS guy — he’s not.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 28, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Why buy-high now?

This is an all-time buy high scenario — if we thought he was this good, we should have signed him for the peanuts he’s signed for in the offseason. We didn’t, and now we’re interested because he’s throwing up an OPS of 1.100 in a hitters park and is below average away from there?

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 28, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

That is a good argument

I am really more in the “wish we had signed him earlier” camp than in the “I realistically think we should trade for him now” camp. He’ll just be too expensive to be worth it, even if he’s an upgrade (which I think he would be).

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Jul 28, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

And we might end up getting stuck with him in arbitration and paying him $6M next season

to look like Adam Kennedy minus the defense.

Which means we’d have two crappy left handed hitting second baseman on the roster that play below average defense.

If we’re trading for him, it’s to hope that he’s type B (which he almost assuredly will be) and we can get compensation when he gets a long term deal after the season.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 30, 2010 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

im not sure that split is indicative of johnson's ability

in 07 he hit better at road, 08 at home, 09 on the road and now in 10 he’s better at home. seems like he alternates every year.

by lopey986 on Jul 27, 2010 7:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is the first year he's played his home games in a hitter's park

Turner Field is a pitcher’s park similar to Busch III (suppresses homers to left, neutral to right, similar dimensions). This is also the first year that he’s put up a 1.000 OPS split ANYWHERE, regardless of sample size.

I’d say that’s pretty indicative of him taking advantage of his home park, to an extreme level.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 28, 2010 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

"Hawk-Soup Combo"....

….sounds like someplace I don’t want to eat…
:=8P

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Jul 26, 2010 4:55 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Well, you're a herbivore.

"What exactly is that thing? A pessimism meter?" - Bruce McCurdy

by hazel on Jul 27, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

MIFs/P

the cards can’t keep running soup & hawksworth back to back. otherwise, you’d be having two pretty-much guaranteed losses at the back end of the rotation. at the very least, the cards should go after one pitcher.

the obvious – the cards need a middle infielder. BAD. boog is an offensive liability this year. greene, more defensive. miles is just miles.

by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 26, 2010 6:16 PM EDT reply actions  

speaking from anecdote

but i wouldn’t consider greene a defensive liability

"He’s in his own world out there. He says he doesn’t cuss. I disagree." - Skip Schumaker on Jason Motte
STOP TRYING TO TRADE SHELBY MILLER!!

by BVHeck on Jul 27, 2010 2:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

I can't agree or disagree

that the Cards need a bat, but what keeps sticking out at me is:

To date, the Cardinals have been the second best team in the majors in the run-prevention department, allowing only 363 runs thus far on the season.

If I’m assuming correctly that your conclusion is it’s attributed to the defense then I disagree somewhat with that.

Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 26, 2010 7:02 PM EDT reply actions  

I posted too soon.

I meant to hit preview. Let me continue.
I think a lot of that 363 runs allowed is due to the pitching.
Of the 3 elements:
hitting
pitching
defense
it’s been the pitching that we can have the most pride in.
The defense, for the most part has been a sad disappointment and not what we were hoping for.
The hitting has been slow to come around.
The pitching has had it’s setbacks but thanx to the top 3 it’s done well, considering the hitting and defense behind it.

So, the title says “Cards need a bat, not an arm.”
I agree with that. But I’m not sure we need to acquire one, I can’t really say. If this team would just hit like it was expected to then they’d be in a lot better position today and going forward.
For me the questions are, do I think the bats we have will ever get it going on a regular basis and will the pitching we have today get us there if it does?
I can’t really answer that.
Pujols, Holliday, Ludwick, Rasmus….then add Freese and Jay.
Those are bats. They should be producing more than they are. Unfortunately, they seldom get hot (or even hit their avg) more than one or two players at a time or for several games at a time (with a few exceptions).
In the past we’ve counted on Albert a lot. The idea of having Holliday behind him seemed ungodly, especially considering Ludwick and what is expected from Rasmus.
However, it’s not working out that way. Albert, despite his numbers, is not the Albert that this lineup was hoping for. He has a lot more ABs between HRs than we’re accustomed to.
Freeze started out hitting far better than expected, then cooled, then went down. I don’t know what to expect from him when he comes back.
Without looking at all the numbers I’d have to say that Ludwick has been the most reliable and predictable and I think he’s a real key to this offense. I’d hate to lose him.
So before I ramble much longer, I guess my point is….I think we do need a bat if we think these guys aren’t going to hit together like we expected, else we should have plenty of lumber.
Where do you put a bat if you get one? My hopes would be for a slick fielding, good hitting second baseman and then I’d hope for the best from what we have. The potential is there. It just needs to quit being potential and become reality.

Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 26, 2010 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

two things

we don’t score outside of dingers because we have too many low obp guys
if thy would revert to the past (yadi, boog, apu, etc) we would score more and differently

tlr’s line-up tinkerin hurts us offensively and defensively

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Jul 26, 2010 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's also part of the equation.

I just didn’t expand that far.
But there have been opportunities lost by the big guys with men on base.

Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 26, 2010 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

plenty

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Jul 26, 2010 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you're saying.

It’s just that I think what we’re seeing, with the exception of Albert and on the flip side of the coin, Boog, is essentially represenatitive of the true talent level of the people who are in the lineup right now. The knock on Ludwick has always been health and streakiness. Skip’s success rises and falls with his BABIP. Colby’s a second year played with only about 1.3 years worth of plate appearances owing to the way Tony plays him. If I recall correctly, Holliday’s been, by WAR, something like one of the top 5 OFers in the league. Aside from the Great Kneeling Homer of 2010, Miles and Fat Miles have met or exceeded their expected levels of suck. Would it really surprise anyone if Freese, Jay, Craig, and any of the other memphis men OPS’ed .700 for the rest of the season?

Maybe I (we) was (were) just spoiled by the MV3 years, but it seems like ever since 2005 ended, I’ve just been sitting there saying, “Man, once everybody heats up at once, things are gonna be just great!” Thing is, it hasn’t happened for any extended stretch since then. I hate to quote Bernie, but sometime last season, he said something along the lines of, "At some point, the Cardinals go from, ‘A team that’s struggling to score runs,’ to, ‘A team that struggles to score runs.’

So sure, if everyone gets healthy and hot at the same time, we’re fine. But I don’t think it’s realistic for that to be our expectation anymore. Greatest hitter in baseball or not, I think that maybe it’s time we stop thinking this team is an offensive explosion waiting to happen and treat it like the streaky product we’ve watched for the last four and a half years.

Also, when I said “preventing the opposition from scoring runs,” I was including both pitching and defense in that aspect of the game. At least mentally. Perhaps I should have been clearer.

by dronemc on Jul 26, 2010 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

reds are getting several career years, either overall all

or of the recent past

ours are having career years too, but negative

i agree it is unlikely they all (or any except apu) breakout this season

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Jul 26, 2010 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well stated!

Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 26, 2010 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

i hope craig is on the post-season roster

he can help in the playoffs, but if we made it to the world series it’s be nice to have a dh for the AL park. can you change your roster before the world series, even without an injury?

watching the reds game – edmonds just homered to give the brewers the lead. and congrats to garza on the no-no, facing the minimum batters (think he walked one, then got a dp)

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Jul 26, 2010 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm a huge Edmonds fan...

and I think something stinks between him and TLR…and I put it squarely on TLR.
Why else would he not have gotten consideration? We picked up Winn and Miles and didn’t consider Jimmy? What’s up with that?

Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 27, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

and Edmonds and Rolen.

But not McGwire!

Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 27, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

i think jimmy saw an opportunity for more playing time in milwaukee

i think tony would have taken him, or at least serious considered it, as a 4th or 5th of’er. jimmy didn’t come back to sit, and probably really wanted a shot at reaching 400 homers – with a legit shot at the hof, i can’t blame him.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Jul 27, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

He wanted a more or less full-time role

I’d have loved to get him as he’s my all-time favourite cardinal, but realistically he was likely to be a backup in the corners and it didn’t seem likely, going into the season, that he could still play CF. Mo did sniff around him in the winter, in fact.

TLR and Edmonds had a falling out a couple of years ago, but they recently made up. Pretty sure TLR turned up at Jimmy’s restaurant with a bottle of wine and they had an evening of talking and clearing the air, and are on good terms again.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

glad to hear it.

I don’t know if he’ll make the hall or not but he’s the best CFer I’ve ever seen in Cardinal red.

Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 27, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think he deserves it

and I think he’ll make it if he gets to 400 (which is kinda stupid, in a way; why would the guy be considered “better” if he plays a couple of years past his best to hit a largely meaningless counting stat total?)

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 28, 2010 6:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

agree!

i don’t think 400 homers should be some magical number.
Dizzy Dean is In and only has 150 wins.
Jimmy should go in, 400 or not.

Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 28, 2010 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sadly,

he should have received an audition during our away games in AL parks earlier this year. He didn’t. And we got such sluggers as Aaron Miles as our DH. The odds are far greater that Miles will DH in the World Series (should we be lucky enough to make it) than Craig.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 27, 2010 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

i feel a little queasy

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Jul 27, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ugh.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Jul 27, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

could you explain?
Skip’s success rises and falls with his BABIP

not sure what you mean…. on a technical level, everyone rises and falls with their BABIP given that a low one will = bad results and a great one = good results….

if you mean year-to-year, then that’s just false…. his BABIP has been good for three years running now and he’s only been “rising” with his BABIP…

Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog

by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 27, 2010 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

I was typing off the cuff.

I wanted to say something about how “Skip’s cieling is an empty .300ish average,” or “He’s league average at best with the bat and subpar with the glove,” but those statements seemed a little to pedestrian for as poetic as I was feeling right then.

by dronemc on Jul 27, 2010 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

well yeh i guess i see what you're saying

meh…. he doesn’t really carry a empty .300 average (which i consider low power and no walks) – he has had a .358+ OBP past three years and his slugging percentage was greater than .393 all of the years…..

but he is good for a .750 OPS, which is average at best (servicable when cheap as well)

Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog

by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 27, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Team vs Individual Talent

The Cards don’t seem to be built on a team concept and to much focus is put on individual numbers. I think a good example is Jon Jay – I think the Cards are a better team when he is in the lineup for Ludwick or Rasmus while Rasmus and Ludwick are obviously more talented.

by Warcard on Jul 26, 2010 8:47 PM EDT reply actions  

Can we please stop

all the Jon Jay hype? He is playing way over his head right now and too many Cards’ fans are making far too much out of a very small sample — 106 PA. He has never walked a lot and has never hit with any real power. He currently has a .434 BABIP w/ a 13 % LD rate. He’s hitting very well right now but will regress…mightily. He isn’t better than Ludwick and he’s not better than Rasmus and the team isn’t better with him in the lineup than it is with Ludwick and Rasmus in the lineup. He’s no more likely to produce tomorrow “because he’s hot” right now than Ludwick or Rasmus is since “being hot” isn’t predictive of anything.

We have gotten a huge boost out of his production over the last 3 weeks or so but he isn’t this good. He never has been. He’s a 4th OF type who has played really well and is making half (or more) of the Cards’ fans believe that he’s a future Hall of Famer.

Please stop overreacting to 106 PAs.

by chuckb on Jul 26, 2010 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions   3 recs

agree on regression, but

when deciding who to play tomorrow
why do you sit him?
hot is hot, ride him still the pendulum looks to be going the other way
(crystal ball stuff, i know)

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Jul 26, 2010 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

we've been through this i think

“riding him while he’s hot” is a false theory and bound for disaster…. for example… he is at 106 plate appearances…. in 200 plate appearances (let’s assume for simplicity), if he were to revert to a .320 BABIP (even though in AAA career he has .309 BABIP)…..

anyway doing that puts him at .273 with a .335 OBP…. granted im pretty sure he’s not falling to earth this hard, his numbers will look better, but if he did do this in fact, his remaining stats would look bad!: /156 average and .235 OBP

granted once again, i doubt he’d fall this flat, but he’d probably be well below .300 going forward if you play the probabilities

Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog

by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 27, 2010 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

I sit him

b/c Rasmus is far and away a better player. Just b/c he was hot yesterday it doesn’t mean he will be hot tomorrow. I’m going to ride the better player, not the one who was good yesterday.

Aaron Miles is “hot” right now also. Should he play every day?

by chuckb on Jul 27, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Almost every player that I've ever heard talk

will say that there are times when they see the ball better and can seem to do no wrong. Whether this is confirmation bias or not is anyone’s guess, but it’s a pretty widely regarded phenomenon. There is SOME logic in riding the hot hand until they have a bad game or two. This isn’t an argument to ride Jay 20 games after he’s stopped playing well.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jul 27, 2010 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I agree

I think it’s occams razor-y, too. There is, obviously, no statistical way of demonstrating that streaks are not based, at least partially, on a temporary improvement in a player’s abilities/form/whatever you wish to call it, over various periods of time, but then baseball stats are, by their nature, very noisy and imprecise. Because it’s kinda common sense (at least to me) that “form” or whatever you want to call it must exist to some extent, I feel the burden of proof would be on those who dispute that notion.

Now, I do agree that, to an extent, it’s difficult to predict “form” or “seeing the ball well” going forward, and that (to a large extent) a hot run such as Miles’ can be almost entirely due to luck, but I would contend that, if “form” fluctuates but shows at least some degree of day-to-day consistency, that it’s more likely that, if a hitter is on a streak of good “form”, it is going to continue at any given point than it is to abate.

I’m also not convinced that baseball managers have a very good grasp of this, at least at a functional level, so in general that “riding the hot hand” from their point of view can be more destructive than constructive, but I also think that dismissing the concept out-of-hand is actually not terribly objective.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 28, 2010 6:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

i believe you can see it

at least you can see when a batter is not seeing the ball well, so from that and results you can tell when he is (you can tell when he’s not “not seeing the ball well”, based on his swings and results, if that makes sense). i’d say it’s the same for a shooter in basketball – when he’s “in the zone” the basket seems the size of a hula hoop (for a hitter the ball seems the size of a cantaloupe in slow-motion).

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Jul 28, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ubaldo Jimenez is cold right now.

Do the Rockies sit him?

"What exactly is that thing? A pessimism meter?" - Bruce McCurdy

by hazel on Jul 27, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Indeed.

If the Astros believe he is a “prospect”, then let them have him. I will take Oswalt personally ;).

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)

by Taskmaster on Jul 26, 2010 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like him too.

I wouldn’t put him ahead of Ludwick or Rasmus, but I think he’s deserving of a shot as an everyday player. He might regress…but everybody who gets hot eventually regresses, don’t they?
I don’t know if I’m willing to say he’s playing over his head. I don’t really subscribe to the idea of players “playing over their head”. If they’re capable of doing what they do, then it’s not over their head. If they cool back down then they’re playing below their capability.
 Freeze wasn’t expected to hit like he did at season’s start, but he cooled down somewhat. So was he playing over his head? I prefer to think he was “hot”.

Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 27, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh dear me

I don’t even know what to say. Baseball is an individual sport… it’s a series of one on one matchups, except that half the players are for one side and the other half are for the other. It all just masquerades as a team sport. I WANT guys out to selfishly hit balls into the gaps and selfishly throw nasty pitches all for their individual numbers because things such as hits and home runs and walks-drawn and LD% HELP the team win games. Ryan Ludwick is a great outfielder who hits very well and Rasmus is going to be a superstar if he can ever play a full season without his legs crapping out. Jon Jay is a nice little player who seems to try hard and is probably kissing a baby tonight when the game’s over and probably walks around farting rainbows and sunshine, but he’s simply not the caliber of player as Raz/Luddy. Period.

VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009

by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 27, 2010 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

i don't understand

its a proven fact, jon jay just makes this team better

Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog

by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 27, 2010 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

sure he will regress

but how much is anyone’s guess. right now he’s doing exceptionally well and until he starts sucking he will get playing time. who knows what is wrong with Raz right now anyway.

chief justice

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 28, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

The problem is

the last two pitching slots are our “easiest” places to improve. Hawk is replacement level, at best. Suppan might not even be that good. We can add a boring, league-average innings eater and probably add 1-2 wins over the rest of the season.

It’s much harder to upgrade the middle infield. Drew will cost more than any pitcher, I suspect, and there’s a good chance he’s not a huge upgrade over Boog/Lopez/Greene with average luck. I’d like Drew, and the recent Haren firesale makes me think we could get him for considerably less than Shelby Miller, so I would at least enquire about it, but I actually think Oswalt probably adds more wins to our end-of-year record than Drew or Uggla would, simply because we KNOW that our #4/#5 pitchers (or just #5 if Lohse comes back OK) are almost certain to suck at replacement-level (at best), whereas we have enough middle infield options who CAN be productive that there’s a chance one of them has a good second half.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2010 6:10 AM EDT reply actions  

Also

Drew isn’t a huge upgrade offensively. He might have a slightly better glove than Tyler Greene (though I’d contend it’s close) but he’s really quite a similar hitter – .260, .270 average (which I think we’ll see from Greene), 10-15 HR/yr (which I think Greene would hit if he was playing half his games in Arizona; I doubt Drew is a double-digit HR guy in Busch). The only real difference is that Drew walks at an 8-9% clip, which I think is likely to be a bit more than Greene will manage.

He’s an improvement, definitely, and a proven major leaguer (which I think has some value, when you consider Greene’s age and his struggles to adjust to the high minors on each promotion) but only an incremental one.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2010 6:14 AM EDT reply actions  

Greene

will never be a .260-.270 average hitter in the major leagues. He simply doesn’t make enough contact. If he had 600 PAs, he’s probably good for 15 homers or so but his average would likely be in the .220s and his OBP will be less than .300. Drew is a much better offensive player than Tyler Greene will ever be.

by chuckb on Jul 27, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thank you

....my quick smells like french toast...

Twitter: @mstreeter06

by mstreeter06 on Jul 27, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

He has taken a quantum leap in his contact-hitting abilities in the last year or so

both in the minors and in his two major league stints.

I think I was Greene’s biggest critic last year and didn’t think he’d amount to anything, but I really think he’s a late developer – take a look at his K/BB ratios over the last two years, and his contact and swing percentages on fangraphs. He’s really moving in the right direction.

You’re probably right that .260/270 is a pretty ambitious ceiling, mind you. I’m thinking maybe a .250 BA and somewhere close to a .300 OBP is within his capabilities, now, though, and that’s not something I believed last year.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd argue

that those numbers are probably his ceiling, which doesn’t seem to be too far off what you’re saying.

by chuckb on Jul 27, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I think so.

a) Greene has a chance to be almost as good, offensively, as Drew, but there’s also a significant possibility he regresses hard back to his hacktastic ways of last year when I really didn’t like him as anything other than a backup.
b) Greene’s probably as good as Drew at shortstop, defensively, now.
c) Drew costs, presumably, a reasonable amount to acquire, and will cost more than Greene in the next two seasons.

I’m also not convinced that Drew will add too many wins to our total this year, when we’ve got 2-3 guys who can play shortstop, any of whom have the potential to be average at the position (which is what Drew’s been in the past, though I recognise he’s having a career year). In contrast, I don’t think any of our healthy starters behind the front three have the potential to be better than replacement level, so even adding an average pitcher will give us at least 1 win going forward.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 28, 2010 6:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

So you give me all kinds of grief for talking about Kelly Johnson's splits

and then you put this gem out there?

which I think Greene would hit if he was playing half his games in Arizona; I doubt Drew is a double-digit HR guy in Busch)

That’s the exact same argument, basically.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 28, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just listened to Bernie on my way back from a client meeting.

I think he read this fanpost and the comments last night.

Yay! I get my first “guys in the truck,” moment!

by dronemc on Jul 27, 2010 1:29 PM EDT reply actions  

what did he say?

is it podcasted?

I am pleasantly pleased, thankyouverymuch

by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2010 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Didn't hear the lead in to the discussion,

but he was talking about Kelly Johnson’s home/road split as a potential buyer beware issue, talked about Uggla and Stephen Drew, noting that Uggla might not be available and Drew would cost a fair bit. Then mentioned Cristian Guzman in passing.

If’ he’d just talked a minute about Wigginton, I’d be convinced he read it.

by dronemc on Jul 28, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Would anyone be

interested in Mike Lowell? I’d rather have him than Miguel Tejada. Should be cheap to acquire, too.

by Toddius on Jul 28, 2010 6:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Mo seems to be waiting on Freese

we have that luxury playing in a weak division

"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning

by gocards62 on Jul 29, 2010 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

We should sign Chris Duncan...

then deal him to Red Sox for Mike Lowell and make them pick up all of Lowell’s salary.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 30, 2010 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

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