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Summary of Card Trade Chips Posted on Card Talk by St.LouieLouie

 

Post subject: Who St. Louis Will and Won't Move For Roy Oswalt Posted: 24 Jul 2010 19:26 pm from bleacher report



The Astros' ace has stated on numerous occasions that he'd favor a trade to the St. Louis Cardinals, and because Oswalt has a full no-trade clause, he holds all the cards.

So now it's up to St. Louis to make a move. With a farm system that has been depleted by several trades over the past few years, the Cardinals cannot afford to make a mistake here.

Cardinals fans won't soon forget how Oswalt dominated them in Game Six of the 2005 NLCS, eliminating St. Louis from the playoffs. Come October, no team would want to face a Cardinals rotation anchored by three aces in Oswalt, Chris Carpenter, and Adam Wainwright, all perennial Cy Young candidates. The road the the National League pennant would run through St. Louis. So who should and shouldn't the Cardinals move to get the Astros' ace?

On Their Way Out: Players the Cardinals Shouldn't Hesitate To Offer

Brendan Ryan: It's no secret that Brendan Ryan has struggled. Trading him could be a great move for the Cardinals. He's been batting below the Mendoza line for most of the season, and his usually stellar defense has been less than great. So, if the Astros see potential in him, let them figure it out. Ryan is already 28, so moving him would be an added bonus to acquiring Oswalt.

Fernando Salas: In the first few assignments of his career, Salas has been very good. The Cardinals could relay this into a possible trade, although he wouldn't be the centerpiece of a trade. Tony LaRussa has brought slowly worked him into higher and higher pressure, but he has continued to be effective, giving up just one earned run on a home run over 8.2 innings pitched. The Cardinals already have two young fireballers in their bullpen, so Salas is expandable.

Robert Stock, Brian Anderson, or Matt Pagnozzi: I list these three here together because they all fall into basically the same category. Three catchers, who find their path to the majors blocked by Cardinals mainstay Yadier Molina. They're all considered top prospects in the Cardinals organization, but there's not spot for them now, so they're better used as trade chips.

Daryl Jones: A year ago, I didn't want to see Daryl Jones included in a trade for a big name player. This year, things have changed. In 2008, when Jones batted .316, stole 24 bases, and hit 13 home runs, he looked like a five-tool player who could see starting time in the Cardinals outfield in the coming years. Since then, he has struggled against AAA pitching, and his batting average has dropped the past two seasons. He did bat .209 at Rookie ball in 2005, so he could just be adjusting. The Astros would jump at the chance to get him, and he wouldn't be to big of a piece for the Cardinals to give up.

Blake Hawksworth: Hawksworth has progressed well this season, and no longer has prospect status. He's filled in well for the Cardinals as a fifth starter this year, but has an ERA of nearly 5.00. If Oswalt joins the fold, Hawksworth would have to be moved to an already crowded bullpen. It would be better for the Cardinals to simply include him in a trade. He was the Cardinals top prospect in 2004, so the Astros may still see improvement left in him.

Adron Chambers: Adron Chambers is not the future of Cardinals Nation. However, he could be another team's future. His speed makes him valuable, although his defense is suspect. He's played most of his games in center field, where he has a .964 fielding percentage. He's only 23, so he has time to improve, but would likely be the third player in a three-player deal.

Deryk Hooker: If the Astros are looking for pitching help, as rumored, Hooker could be included in a deal. He currently leads all Cardinals prospects with 94 strikeouts, and put up a 2.83 ERA with a .220 average against for Quad Cities. This has been a breakout year for Hooker, who just turned 21 this June.

Daniel Descalso: Descalso is an interesting case. He appears to be a slightly better hitting Brendan Ryan, expect that Descalso plays second base. His numbers in the minors have been good. With Triple-A Memphis, he's posted a solid .357 on-base percentage, and has driven in 52 runs, putting him on pace for a career high. If the Cardinals don't move him, the 23-year old is their future at second base.

Packing Their Bags: One of These Players Could Be Moved, But Not More


Allen Craig: As the best hitting prospect the Cardinals have, Craig is a prime candidate to be moved in a deal for Oswalt.

Lance Lynn: He could be the centerpiece in a move for Oswalt. The Astros are said to be looking for pitching, and there may be no better option than Lynn, who was named St. Louis's Minor League Pitcher of the Year in 2009. He currently has 90 strikeouts for Triple-A Memphis to lead the team.

Jon Jay: In two stints with the Cardinals, Jay has exceeded all expectations, with a slash line of .378/.441/.607, and he has gained more and more playing time as the season progressed. However, he'll have to come back to earth eventually, and the Cardinals could be wise to sell high here. I would miss the enthusiasm Jay brings to the team, and would hate to see him come up big for the Astros against St. Louis, but I think the Cardinals would be willing to move him, if it means the pennant. If the Cardinals manage to surprise everyone by signing twelfth-round pick Austin Wilson, trading Jay would become a no-brainer.

Eduardo Sanchez: Eduardo Sanchez is listed as the Cardinals sixth best prospect by Baseball America, and for good reason. Out of the minor league bullpen, Sanchez posted a .920 WHIP in 2009, among the best in the organization. He has faltered this year in split time between Springfield and Memphis, but if the Astros want him, the Cardinals could move him with little thought.

Mitchell Boggs: As a major league ready arm, Boggs may fit the bill for Houston. He can develop into either a fourth or fifth starter, or even a closer. With a fastball in the high-90's, and a devastating slider, Boggs has put hitters away out of the St. Louis pen, posting a 1.168 WHIP while striking out 6.6 batters per nine innings. At the age of 26, he could develop into a strong closer in the Houston bullpen.

Deal Breakers: Players Who Aren't Going Anywhere

David Freese, Colby Rasmus, and Jaime Garcia: These three are the future of Cardinals Nation. Rasmus has been called, along with Andrew McCutchen, the future of center field in the National League. Garcia, who made the club out of spring training, has looked like a Rookie of the Year favorite, posting a 9-4 record with a 2.21 ERA. He looks like a future front of the line starter for St. Louis. Freese was of to a hot start before injury derailed him. It's very likely that he'll be moved in the foreseeable future, because the Cardinals don't have a suitable replacement for him at third.

Shelby Miller: He's the reason a trade hasn't gotten done yet. It appears the Astros want Miller, last year's first round draft pick, but the Cardinals are unwilling to part with him, and for good reason. Miller is only 19, but has the top rated fastball in the organization. Baseball America lists him as the Cardinals' top prospect, and he looks like he will replace Chris Carpenter within the next four years. Even if it prevent the deal from getting done, you do not trade Miller.

So can the Cardinals get Oswalt? If the Astros are willing to look past Shelby Miller, I think a deal can get done by the July 31 deadline. There may yet be another wrench thrown into the equation. If the Cardinals manage to surprise everyone by signing twelfth-round pick Austin Wilson, a top 15-pick talent that the Cardinals have been recruiting vigorously, trading Jay, Craig, or Jones would become a no-brainer.



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Agree and Disagree With Many Things in This Article
  • Agree that Shelby Miller should not be moved particuarily after Oswalt’s latest game.
  • Disagree that Ryan should be included in the deal. Look I know he is having a terrible year, but you cannot trust Greene or Lopez as your SS. Unless they have plans to add someone they had better hang on to Ryan.
  • Agree that Boggs could go. He has potential but I don’t see it as a relief pitcher – to wild.
  • Disagree that Jay should automatically be included. I would rather see Craig offered and I would think that the Stros will be moving Berkman. Craig’s natural position is 1B – he was the minor league player of the year this past season and he has 67 RBI’s at Memphis this year even though he has missed considerable playing time while in St. Louis. Would like to keep Jay and Craig but I would guess that one would probably have to go.
  • Disagree with moving both Salas and Sanchez. Salas looks to already be better than Boggs and Sanchez is full of potential. Might move one of the two but not both.
  • Agree – no problem moving Daryl Jones, Hawksworth, Chambers and one of the young catchers (Pagnozzi, Anderson, Stock)

In summary, plenty of options to suggest – the real question is who and how many?

by Warcard on Jul 25, 2010 12:35 AM EDT reply actions  

Disagree that Ryan should be included in the deal. Look I know he is having a terrible year, but you cannot trust Greene or Lopez as your SS. Unless they have plans to add someone they had better hang on to Ryan.

I don’t understand this particular objection. What makes Ryan worth holding on to over Greene or Lopez.

The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun

by mob16151 on Jul 25, 2010 5:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

as long as second base is a big fat question mark, a shortstop that makes both the routine plays and almost 90% of the spectacular plays

is not just a lucky break, it’s imperative … especially when the entire pitching staff — starters and bullpen — are built for ground balls. just having him back there could buy more time for Carpenter, for instance.

all he has to do is keep pace with Yadi’s offensive numbers. the only way this trade wins is if it’s a sure bet that he won’t get better in the next 2-3 years … when this year had a shortened spring training plus post-surgery plus new hitting coach. we’d be betting that this is a permanent condition a la Khalil Greene. I don’t trust that Tea Greene has Ryan’s defensive ceiling, and I don’t trust that Lopez won’t cost us more down the line, both in salary and off-field issues.

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jul 25, 2010 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

the problem IMO is that Greene doesn't need to get Ryan's high ceiling of defense

he justs needs to be good…. his line right now with his defense (by all accounts, he is a good defender…. in fact he makes some mistakes, but most of them seem like Boog mistakes as well)……………

i don’t get this feeling that greene is only adaquate defensively….. i’ve thought he was been a great defender

Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog

by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 25, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

absitively

boog has an exceptional skill compared to most others playing ss in the major leagues
you do not “throw” him in to any deal. greene will never be his equivalent on defense. as long as dd is coaching, boog needs to stay

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Jul 26, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ryan has the potential

to hit better than he is now but neither Lopez or Greene has the potential to play SS as well as Ryan.

Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 26, 2010 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

this is true

and if there is a trade and boog isn’t involved i think he has a deep sigh of relief and starts playing looser and producing more. i think if there’s one guy doesn’t want to be traded in this business of baseball it is boog.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Jul 26, 2010 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pagnozzi is neither young

nor a prospect. If any team ever wants Pagnozzi included in a trade, I will eat my laptop.

I am pleasantly pleased, thankyouverymuch

by mattyfrommo on Jul 25, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

i stopped reading at

“matt pagnozzi is a top prospect”

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter

by prophetjohn on Jul 25, 2010 12:39 AM EDT reply actions  

had a good chuckle, though

if there is someone in the world who believes that, then there must be more, and we can only hope they reside in houston.

also, when did dj tools struggle against AAA pitching? did he get a late callup last year?

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Jul 25, 2010 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would make David Freese expendable

for the right offer anyway. Don’t know if Freese is as good as he was starting out the season.

If he is supremely valuable to another team that has a big piece that we can use, trade him and give the keys to the position to Lopez for the foreseeable future in my view.

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)

by Taskmaster on Jul 25, 2010 1:14 AM EDT reply actions  

can you trade someone on the DL?

Though I guess they could just make him a PTBNL

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jul 25, 2010 8:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

PTBNL can't come from the same league

so he would have to be in Memphis for that to work.

this thread is all Aaron Mile's fault.

by Evilfrog on Jul 25, 2010 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

I want to give Freese more time.

somebody in our infield* has to hit.

*not named Albert

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jul 25, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd be good with trading David Freese's ankle, though.

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jul 25, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Who's ankle do we want to acquire?

It’s a tough market for ankles this year.

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)

by Taskmaster on Jul 25, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

let's replace the ankle from within

i hear penny has exceptionally strong ankles, and he may not be needing them.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Jul 25, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I doubt the Astros would jump at a chance to get Jones, either

He hasn’t hit for the last 2 seasons. Also: Pagnozzi?

While the Astros don’t seem to be the best run org. in baseball, I still wonder why people would think they would want like to have fringe or non-prospects.

I am pleasantly pleased, thankyouverymuch

by mattyfrommo on Jul 25, 2010 10:25 AM EDT reply actions  

Oswalt wants to break the astros win record.

And the Astors don’t want to deal him to the Cards unless they get miller in return. If he is traded my guess its in the off season to someone outside of the division.

by rumors on Jul 25, 2010 1:33 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

that could be

but i think he’s most valuable now when there are teams in need, rather than the off-season when teams are not desperate to take on that 16 mil. if the stros want anything in return, i think they deal him now.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Jul 25, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

right. his value is absolutley highest now.

But he has to accept the deal. And unless its the cards I don’t think he will until after he breaks the record. At which point, after the loss last night, the trade deadline will have past. Only way he gets traded is to the cards. Only way the stros let him go to the cards is for miller. Only way they get miller is if they pay some of oswalt’s salary for us. It just doesn’t seem likely.

by rumors on Jul 25, 2010 2:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

i don't think the record will hold up anything now

oswalt said he wanted two starts for a chance at it. i think he still wants the other start, to tie, but it didn’t sound like he would hold up a deal because of the record – he just wanted a shot.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Jul 25, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Missed

i agree for the most part of the post. i do feel however though we need to find a way to trade luddy and skip “got to love the” shumaker. luddy still has some value and is getting old ( i am also bias because though he is more of a “cardinal great” then say holliday, i still have never realy liked him. i thihnk is arm is below average(throws like johnny damon) and he is not all that great, i know ple will throw stats out at me, but he is a guy that will have the stats, but you will never see him do it (if you get what i’m saying). Skip, i love the guy, willing to do anythign for the team, but either a.)we move luddy and put skip in the outfield or b.) package him in a trade with luddy for the likes of a werth or hart if possible, or c.) (this is the least likely cause i heard the stros don’t want luddy) throw them both in a package to the stros with Roy and maybe get a keppinger or pence in there if possible. stros are looking to re vamp a bit and i know prospects are worth more, but getting two servicable major leaguers right now that are cheap could sweeten the deal and help the astros retain some of Roy’s contract.

by ap5mvp on Jul 25, 2010 2:16 PM EDT reply actions  

luddy may not have bruce's arm in right

but he certainly has a good arm – why do you say he throws like damon? and philly isn’t going to want luddy – they already have werth’s replacement, which is why they can deal him. and the kid has the physique and power of strawberry.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Jul 25, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

his arm

is barely at average for a typical right fielder and yesi believe he throws like johnny damon, i have never seen him do much in outfield assist. not stas, but actually seeing it. i know the philly’s have their man to replace werth, but the could certainly use his right handed bat i there in replace of the senior citizen raul and put luddy there. werth is, IMO, MUCH better than luddy and can be cheap and then after this year let him go.

by ap5mvp on Jul 25, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

i love werth, but he's not coming to st. louis

it’ll take a lot to get him, else the phils just take the picks.

a lot of the better outfield arms don’t get many assists because teams don’t run on them, thus they get far fewer chances. manny might get more assists than a good outfielder, for instance. and i vehemently disagree on luddy’s arm – plus, he’s accurate.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Jul 25, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

ludwick's arm is well above average

did you see the throw where he hit home plate spot on and stopped ichiro from even attempting to tag up? not sure how that is even remotely close to johnny damon’s arm….

Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog

by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 25, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

No...I do not "get" what you are saying.

Perhaps watching the games would be on way of “seeing” him do it. Stats don’t magically appear.

RFL!!!!

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Jul 26, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

If you were trying to send Ludwick

you would probably do it as part of a package deal. the problem beng that most of the teams waning Ludwick would probably want Oswalt more, and wouldn’t be too interested in giving the Cardinals the means to acquire Oswalt.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jul 25, 2010 2:25 PM EDT reply actions  

Even factoring for injury risk?

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Jul 25, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

waino is better, carp is better

but i don’t get the point.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Jul 25, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

In the context of the article it is mentioned that carp waino and oswalt would be the starters in the playoffs but I would go with garcia over oswalt

chief justice

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 25, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh, ok

down the stretch here i’d like if they limited jaime’s innings, and oswalt would allow that. we’d need four ready to go in the playoffs, though, and jaime would be in there, but i’d hate to get into the playoffs and have to give hawk or soup a start in the event neither lohse nor penny work out. this is my greatest worry regarding the pitching.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Jul 25, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess it would depend mainly on if we needed a lefty

chief justice

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 25, 2010 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

i would be happy with

Westbrook or millwood or evan hernandez. They all have very respectable numbers this year. And could be had for much less than oswalt or haren. No way we get pence from the asstros.

by rumors on Jul 25, 2010 2:45 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

and i dont think we need him.

Jay/Craig could be fine in right field.

by rumors on Jul 25, 2010 2:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

the trade I would like to make

with Houston, is Dan and Al Hrabosky for Milo Hamilton. I used to not like the guy (Milo) but I was just watching the Reds’ game on TV, with the sound muted, of course, so I did not have to suffer the Brennaman kid, and I was very impressed with Mr Hamilton.
While we are at it, we could make a secondary trade with Seattle: Rooney for Dave Niehaus.
Honestly, there are times when Shannon is awol and I am getting Dan and Al, or fatbutt Jay and Ricky, or the MLB-TV broadcast, and I am very irritated, since I am all but forced to just watch and not listen.
The “used to” above reminds me of one of my favorite jokes, from the late, great Mitch Hedberg. He looks at the audience and deadpans, “I used to take drugs. I still do, but I used to, too.”

by the Tewk on Jul 25, 2010 5:22 PM EDT reply actions  

Impact of the Haren Trade - Does It Help or Hurt Cards Chances and does Sunday's

game change your mind about who the Cards should move. Looks to me like DB’s got a mid-level major league pitcher and three minor league prospects. Cards don’t have a major league comparable pitcher to move but it would seem like the Cards could easily match Saunders worth with other major league ready players. My concern is that most are comparing the young pitcher TBNL to be comparable to Shelby Miller. Doesn’t sound like the other two were A prospects but that the one not named may be a high level prospect. Does anyone know?

Do those of you advocating Ryan and Jay still believe that they are expendable. I thought they both looked very good tonight.

by Warcard on Jul 26, 2010 12:42 AM EDT reply actions  

This isn't a very good precis of the situation, IMO

a lot of inaccuracies and blatant misunderstanding of the minor league system and/or the relative merits and values of various players here.

I’m also not sure about the legality/ethics of re-posting (in its entirety) an article or post from another website without the author’s permission.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 26, 2010 8:44 AM EDT reply actions  

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