Roy Oswalt and Jaime Garcia
by DanUpBaby on Jul 22, 2010 3:00 AM EDT
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PrintFirst order of business: Roy Oswalt? Really?
The Cardinals are in on him, according to NBC Sports's Craig Calcaterra. From a preliminary tweet, this piece:
In fact, the Astros have been talking with Cardinals GM John Mozeliak for several days now, and Oswalt is quite amenable to go to St. Louis if the teams can agree on what players will head back to Houston. For their part, the Cardinals are convinced that matching Roy Oswalt up with Dave Duncan would take a guy who is already an ace and turn him back into the Cy Young candidate he was a few years ago. I'll stop believing stuff like that when Dave Duncan actually fails for once. Which I wouldn't bet on, frankly.
Of course, the big issue everyone has been talking about today has been Oswalt's desire that his 2012 option be picked up. That's $16 million, and that ain't hay. My source tells me, however, that Oswalt would be willing to work with the Cardinals to make the option more palatable, possibly in terms of deferring some money. The sides aren't quite that far yet.
Bernie Miklasz, for his part, says Oswalt and Haren each are "longshots." But his more relevant tweet comes here: "If Ludwick gets a raise, Cards have around $85 million committed to 10 players for 2011. Oswalt is guaranteed $16 mil in '11. Tough $ fit."
If you're looking for a big midseason acquisition Oswalt is That Guy; even in his diminished 2008-2009 capacity he struck out three batters for every walk, and even though short pitchers should never, ever, ever start—did you get that, Jess Todd?—he's as durable as any starter you'll find, having made 30 starts in seven consecutive seasons. His velocity is basically the same as it's ever been, too—he's been between 92.6 and 94 since 2002, although he throws it less now than ever. He's having a fine season now, despite leading the league in losses, and has the misfortune of playing in Houston.
But let me show you these contracts, and you can tell me if you think they fit together:
| Year | Oswalt | Holliday | Pujols | Carpenter | Wainwright | Lohse |
| 2010 | $15 M | $17 M | $16 M | $14.5 M | $4.7 M | $8.8 M |
| 2011 | $16 M | $17 M | $16 M | $15 M | $6.5 M | $11.9 M |
| 2012 | $16 M | $17 M | $50 B | $15/1 M | $9 M | $11.9 M |
That's a pretty expensive rotation to field in the first year of Pujols's megabucks contract—either that or the Cardinals basically trade Carpenter, whose 2012 contract has a $1 million buyout, for Oswalt, who supposedly is requiring any team that acquires him to trigger his own club option. In 2012 that's $69 million for the five people on this list whose name isn't Albert Pujols.
So either Oswalt defers a lot of money, Kyle Lohse announces he's leaving baseball to join the Peace Corps, Albert Pujols decides $16 million sounds about right after all, or this trade doesn't work financially for the Cardinals. I love Roy Oswalt as a pitcher; he throws hard, he works fast, he's got an array of pitches but always knows when to go back to the fastball. But his contract just doesn't fit.
And that's without bringing the players the Cardinals would trade into the discussion. Shelby Miller's a long way away—he threw five scoreless innings and struck out eight last night—and risky, too, but if you're going to trade Miller you can probably get better players with less-onerous contracts coming back in the deal.
But hey, Jaime Garcia! He's cheap! The Cardinals developed him in-hour, at times with considerable doubt as to how it would work out, and now he's 9-4 with an ERA of 2.21. Looking back on a season I'm loath to remove all of the "luck" factors from a pitcher's line; Chris Carpenter really didn't give up many home runs in 2009, and Jaime Garcia hasn't given up many in 2010. But to judge what we'll get from him the rest of the year I think xFIP is a useful indicator; before last night's game it stood at 3.74.
He's great, and the way he pitches portends greater things; I love all four of his pitches—as Al Hrabosky said repeatedly last night, his fastball moves, because he's a left-hander! but there's more—and at times he seems to demolish a lineup with radar-guided Chris Carpenter accuracy. But he's not all the way there yet; if his walk rate doesn't go down in the future we're probably witnessing the best year of his career. Of course, we might be anyway; he's having an outstanding year.
Last night was Garcia at his most representative—lots of strikeouts, that awkward situation at the end, and finally just one earned run. I like to watch him, and I like to watch him more at $400,000 a year.
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the only possibility is that payroll is going up up up
it makes no sense, otherwise
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
also:
I think Kyle Lohse could do some real good overseas, helping people.
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
by purple_haze on Jul 22, 2010 3:10 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
even if payrool is going up, it doesn't make sense
we can get more for our money
by YesWeOquendo on Jul 22, 2010 3:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
Oswalt’s having a good year, but he’s been showing some slightly concerning signs of ageing in the last couple. Whilst I think Duncan can definitely do some good with him and extend his career, I’m not too keen on paying the guy $16m in 2012. I think he could be barely above average at that point.
Oswalt’s just about worth his contract but no more, really. If anything, for a team like Houston, it should be a salary dump with something like PJ Walters going the other way. No way I’d give up a legit prospect and, with some good FA options next year, raises to Pujols and various other players earning megabucks, I don’t really want Oswalt at all.
As YesWeOquendo said, if payroll is going up, we should just’ve dealt our entire farm system for Cliff Lee and given him a lucrative extension. He’s much better, and younger, than Oswalt and gives us the best rotation in baseball for the next 3 years, and a big chance of winning the WS.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2010 4:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Or, if payroll is going to go up, we could just buy Cliff Lee this Hot Stove.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
This just in
Cliff Lee is exactly 1 year younger than Roy Oswalt. So we’re not talking about a huge difference in age here.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
But,
Cliff Lee is left-handed, and they typically last longer than flame-throwing righties. Nonetheless, no thank you to paying over $13MM for a pitcher with our salary obligations.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Precisely.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Rick Ankiel begs to diffe...
Fuck me, this thread isn’t any fun. Just stop. Stop now.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Why is it that lefties can be
crafty, but you rarely see that moniker attached to northpaws?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jul 22, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Because lefties are oddities.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Who wear their hats crooked.....
can always tell who’s a lefty by looking at his hat.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
You just thought it looked straight.
Everyone else was snickering.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
and they have movement on their pitches
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
True
but Oswalt’s been around a lot longer and has shown some signs of decline in recent years, whereas Lee is yet again having a top-5-pitcher-in-baseball type year. I’m confident Cliff Lee is still an ace in 2012. I’m not so confident in Oswalt.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Oswalt has only had one down year
Cliff Lee sucked until three years ago and then seems to have figured things out.
I think Oswalt is more of an injury risk due to his back issues, but in terms of aging I think they’re about equal,
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
That's the ticket
All the discussion is that we can’t afford him. Well, we can’t afford him sticking to historical payrolls, but we can afford him if we want to. Assuming they think they can afford him, I’ll take him in a heartbeat. even if it costs Miller. What’s the likilihood that Miller will give use three years like Oswalt, ever?
I also beleive that if you put Pujols and Holliday in the middle of the lineup with four strong starters and a replacement level 5th starter, you can populate the rest of the lineup with low cost average/above average guys with minimal salaries and still win. It will be like the 80’s with one big bopper in the middle (this time two) and a bunch of punch and judy hitters.
Waino, Carp and Roy and Garcia in the playoffs, thank you very much.
Just win
thats right.
If we can keep serviceable players like freese, ryan, schu, craig, jay, boggs, motte, etc coming through the system that are cheap and at least somewhat effective, we have the room for oswalt or haren. I’m not sure how old haren is but oswalt is still only 32. Haren is not pitching great right now and has not all season. Oswalt will be worth it. If we give up miller oh well.
Also its great to see austin wilson actually giving us a chance and coming to the ballpark yesterday. That’s encouraging. There’s another top prospect that might be soon in our system. Along with Matias who is tearing up the DSL. If we give up miller this year its not like we will never get another good pitching prospect. Next years draft is stacked.
Let’s go Mo!!! Get a deal done! This team is hot right now. And a deal for a haren or oswalt would just push us even higher.
As an after note; when Luddy comes back someone is gonna have to go. Itd be great if we could deal for a SP. Then send Salas down and move hawksworth back to the pen. And get tojay and craig.
by rumors on Jul 22, 2010 8:36 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Actually I think Dan just proved to you this isn't true:
If we can keep serviceable players like freese, ryan, schu, craig, jay, boggs, motte, etc coming through the system that are cheap and at least somewhat effective, we have the room for oswalt or haren.
With Oswalt, that’s $69M for 5 players, plus Albert Pujols megabucks contract (probably in the neighborhood of $25M+), Assuming $25M, that’s $94M for 6 players. SIX PLAYERS. We are not the Yankees (who’s revenues are 2.5X what ours are), so saying that we can afford this “if we want to” is completely misunderstanding things. With Oswalt, Carp, and Pujols in 2012, our payroll will be $125M+ because you’re going to have to start paying Rasmus in 2011 and he’ll be in arb 2 in 2012 assuming we don’t buy him out. Ryan will be in Arb3 at that point. Ludwick is gone, or re-signed at $8-$10M per season for 2-3 years, and if he’s gone, who replaces him? I like Allen Craig, but I’m not about to anoint him an .840 OPS player at this level just yet.
Look at the Cubs. That’s what we’re looking at in 2012 and 2013 in terms of payroll, which means that if any of these guys get hurt, there won’t be a damn thing the club can do about it — we’ll just have to swallow it and play on. We lost Chris Carpenter for 2 seasons, and didn’t sniff the playoffs after September 1st in either of those years, and that’s with some payroll flexibility. This would give us none of that flexibility.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
What about with Haren instead?
2011 What are the ramifications?
2012?
I’m assuming Ludwick isn’t going to be brought back at reasonable dollars, and that we will have the kids playing in right. Maybe that is one hell of an assumption.
I'm glad someone brought up the Cubs,
because our current path is leading us down that road, especially if we trade for Oswalt.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
We can buy Carp out of his 2012 deal
And if we trade for Oswalt, I’m almost sure we’d do that.
If we make the trade without giving up Miller, Carp should start packing his bags after next year, as Shelby would be more than likely ready to take his place.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
If LaDunc are still around,
Carp will sign a two-year extension that swallows the option. No way they plug an unproven rookie into his slot and just let him walk away.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Yeah
realistically, if you’re reasonably smart you can just continue to add good pitchers like Penny on reasonably risk-free one-year deals for about HALF that money, ad-infinitum. $15m is still a hell of a lot of scratch.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
though in hindsight
the Penny deal wasn’t smart :-(
Imagine if we’d signed Colby Lewis
"He’s in his own world out there. He says he doesn’t cuss. I disagree." - Skip Schumaker on Jason Motte
Austin Wilson, please don't be a tease!
Or Brett Myers
Of course, we could have also signed Ben Sheets or gulp Rich Harden.
You really couldn’t have anticipated Penny’s injury, but that’s entirely the problem with long term contracts for pitchers — you can’t ever predict injuries. At least we’re only out $7.5M with Penny. We’d be out more than double that with Oswalt.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
By WAR, Penny's been more or less worth his contract already
and there seems a chance he’ll pitch again this year. As fourstick says, it could’ve been worse (although most of the alternatives have been better – I’d rather have Sheets right now simply because he’s healthy and pitching a bit better than Soup/Hawk, Pavano, Myers, Contreras, basically anyone but Harden).
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 23, 2010 5:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Don't be so sure
He’s still a large injury risk, and he’ll be 37 when his contract ends if his option year is picked up. I could totally see us cut bait on him after next season with Oswalt in the fold and Miller in AA.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
...and Miller in AA.
I hope they continue to move Miller along slowly and don’t aggressive promote him up to AAA like they have done with so many others. Miller not being a college pitcher, I think, allows them to be more patient with him.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I think he should be in AA by the end of 2011
He’ll start in High A next year most likely, and if he continues to pitch well he should be moved up next July, imo.
That would put him on the spring training non-roster invite list for 2012 and he could make the leap like Porcello did last year.
I’m not saying that’s going to happen, just that it would be the best case scenario. Honestly, I’m perfectly happy not to see him until 2013 or 2014 if he struggles at all. If he keeps throwing darts and striking out 12 per 9, I think he needs to be aggressively promoted though.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
But teh world ends at the end of 2012
so we need to get in as many WS wins as possible.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jul 22, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Does that mean that Roger Murtaugh will somehow be our president by the end of next year?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I'm gettin too old for this shit
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
I don't remember Murtaugh believing in this
which film is relevant here?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jul 22, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Danny Glover plays the POTUS in the movie 2012 that was out last November.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
the club won't pick up carp's option
but that doesn’t mean something other can’t be worked out for him in 2012 – first let’s see how his 2011 goes, but i can easily see him wanting to remain in st. louis.
the only way miller goes in an oswalt deal is if houston picks up a huge chunk of that salary, in which case payroll going forward isn’t quite the issue it’s being made out to be.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I heard
that after Steinbrenner’s death, DeWitt was inspired and vowed to drastically raise payroll.
(by “I heard”, I mean I just said it out loud)
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
by STLRegalia on Jul 22, 2010 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I'm no payroll expert
but $125+ is a far cry from the Yankees payroll. I think if DeWitt decides that he is a major mid-market team and wants to win while Albert is here, then it is do-able. If our constraint is a $100-$110 million payroll it is not.
The fact that they are talking Haren/Oswalt at all tells me they plan to increase payroll permanently to make a run while Albert is in his prime.
Looked at another way, why spend the money on Holliday if you aren’t going to increase payroll — you just spend a lot of money and maybe still don’t get there. If you are going to go all-in, go all-in.
Just win
I believe what Fourstick is referencing
Is more total revenue percentage spent on payroll. Which seems pretty damn accurate.
You're right
The Yankees are using only 44% of their revenues on payroll this season. That number would be 64% of the Cardinals revenues, assuming revenues don’t jump more than 5% from where they are currently (and they probably wouldn’t). You cannot run a ballclub this way, it’s been proven over the last 25 years.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Yankees' budget logic (or anyone else's) is largely irrelevent
DeWitt has his own P & L to manage, his own fixed costs, his own radio/tv contracts, and his own rate of return desires. If he chooses to accept a lower rate of return because he sees a window to win, then good for him. I have no idea whether anyone knows his P & L in that detail but if he thinks he can manage a positive cash flow with 64% of his payroll tied up in the core, then that’s his call. My point is simply that he is not a stupid businessman and I assume won’t bankrupt himself or his partnership.
The assumptions on why we can or can’t afford palyers and contracts is based on this historical view that the payroll always has to be $100-$110.
Let me ask you this — why are the Cards so actively talking up Oswalt and Haren if they don’t think they can afford to bump up payroll — what’s the point? Clearly they think they can do just what you say they can’t or we wouldn’t be hearing all these comments from the team.
As a fan, I hope they do this. I’d rather bet on Haren/Oswalt than a guy in Single A — and it ain’t my money.
As to the point that you can’t run a stars/scrubs operation, I’m all for trying especailly if the focus is on having four CY Young caliber pitchers, Albert and Matt.
Just win
Fourstick was pointing out that historically
running your payroll at more than 55% of total revenue is a recipe for disaster.
Yes
Because those clubs haven’t done well historically in the win column AND they end up having a long tough slog of it in the year’s after because they sacrificed other aspects of the organization to bump up payroll.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
This makes sense to me.
rI think what we disagree on is opportunity to win, i.e. win now and what it’s WORTH, rather than long term planning. I think you make a very valid point in that we can’t constantly be dumping pay roll into shiny new additions, and eventually we need to put money into the farm system to fill in around those stars.
Cost controlled bullpen/role players are a GREAT way to do that. I think anyone advocating purely absorbing Oswalt is being short sighted, considering how much money he is owed. Especially if the option nonsense is like you stated, gossip.
not to be "argumentative"
but why would spending more money on payroll be “a recipe for disaster”? A disaster for whom? In what way?
Having a high payroll in and of itself is not a bad thing. Long term contracts paying league average guys like Kyle Lohse are bad things, and long term contracts like the ones we gave H can hurt, but taking on a fairly low risk, high-reward player for 2 years is usually a good thing.
The problem is that he’s being paid market value, so he should be cheap in terms of prospects.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
Not to speak for Fourstick
But I believe the point that was being made was if you have a certain amount of money you are allowed to spend, spending more on payroll (rather than in development and scouting) is a bad idea. The 55% was sort of the tipping point, and I believe he was operating under the assumption that our “Total pie” hasn’t been increased by proportionally enough to validate the additional spending without cutting costs elsewhere (i.e. scouting/development) and that this would be a recipe for disaster since we don’t have the amount of revenue of NYY/Boston/NYM with their own stations.
You've got most of it here
I’ll just add that Forbes (I think that’s who it was, I’m looking for links) did a study a few years ago that determined that teams who spend more than 55% of their revenue on payroll since the establishment of free agency did not have good track records of success.
FWIW, most GM’s and owners that I’ve read in interviews seem to treat this as the “breaking point” in terms of resources available for players.
Sleepy, I’m not trying to argue with the above poster, I’m just saying the “Open DeWALLET!” is not a good attitude to have if you ignore the evidence the spending more money doesn’t always equal more success and it usually hampers sustained success. People point to the Yankees and Red Sox as big spenders that have been successful doing so, but what they don’t look at is the fact that those two teams are in the top 6 in revenue in the MLB every year and spend a smaller portion of their revenue on payroll than a lot of other teams that spend far less.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Key words:
Sustained success.
Fourstick is a long term thinker, not an immediate gratification. I agree with this thought process. I just think at this EXACT moment, with Holliday/Pujols/Rasmus in the lineup, and rotation of Carp/Waino/Garcia and an addition, it might be a time to up the ante a bit, for a few years. Not for a prolonged period of time.
Ok -- let's say you're the Atlanta Braves in 2007
You’ve got a shot to win your division but you need another bat. You’ve got a good surplus of minor league talent, so you start looking around and find out that Mark Teixeira is available.
You trade Elvis Andrus, Neftali Feliz, and Jarrod Saltalamacchia for him.
You miss the playoffs, you get banged up as all hell the next season and are out of it by July and you deal him to the Angels and get next to nothing in return.
Now you’re the Braves and you’re leading your division in 2010, but you have a problem at SS because your SS stud from a couple years ago turned out to be kind of an asshole, and you could use one more bullpen arm in front of Billy Wagner. It would be kinda nice to have Neftali Feliz and Elvis Andrus right now, wouldn’t it?
I’m a long term thinker, but I do think we need to upgrade this team. But the thing is that the ability exists to upgrade this team without giving up a ton of our prospective talent and without having long term payroll implications (Kevin Millwood, Jake Westbrook, etc.). That’s why I don’t think that Haren or Oswalt make a lot of sense, because the talent acquired to get them could be helping us at low cost within the next three seasons, and that the cheaper talent really does help this team in a marginally similar manner while leaving us with long term payroll flexibility, which is important when you’re about to offer a motherfucker of an extension to the best player in the game.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Hahaha
You make a good point.And if Westbrook is available for significantly less, that very well could be the best option. I just haven’t heard his name nearly as much. Some of it because of sex appeal, I’m sure.
If you believe
in Dave Duncan’s ability to have success with pitchers who have groundball tendencies by helping them to harness their control and walk fewer people, Westbrook would seem to be the PERFECT player for the Cardinals to pick up.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
And if Westbrook is available for significantly less, that very well could be the best option. I just haven’t heard his name nearly as much. Some of it because of sex appeal, I’m sure.
I dunno. I would totally do Westbrook.
Right in the ear.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 23, 2010 5:11 AM EDT up reply actions
oh, there is zero doubt that was a horrible trade in 2007.
Anyway I’m certainly not arguing that we should trade Green or Motte or Miller or anyone like that for oswalt. The opposite, actually.
Anyway, a better comparison would be: what if Tex was available in 2007 for not much more than agreeing to take his salary off of their hands, and that put ATL over the 55% threshold, for two years? Something more like the Kotchman + Marek for Tex (and, by way of the next year’s #25 draft pick, Mike Trout) trade a year after the lopsided one you threw out? Would that have been a bad deal for ATL, under those circumstances?
With such an incredibly disparate level of MLB revenues and payrolls, the “55%” thing just seems like a bad model. If nothing else, the players on the team affect revenue- it isn’t a constant.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
I have a question for you then:
Let me ask you this — why are the Cards so actively talking up Oswalt and Haren if they don’t think they can afford to bump up payroll — what’s the point? Clearly they think they can do just what you say they can’t or we wouldn’t be hearing all these comments from the team.
Why do you keep assuming that Albert Pujols will be in a Cardinal uniform in 2012? Don’t you think it’s entirely possible that he’s gone and making this deal is a hedge against him leaving?
If we’re going to debate a bunch of shit we can’t possibly know, which is what you seem to be doing, I’ll just start making random assumptions based on rumor mill gossip too.
We have a very good idea of what our payroll has to be to make money. I’m not stating that it always has to be that, but I AM stating that there must be a reason that it has stayed where it is. That’s essentially using your same logic, right?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Your just being argumentative to be argumentative
DeWitt has said with as close to near certainty as any CEO will say that Pujuls will be back. Your saying my whole arguement isn’t worth addressing because “its a bunch of shit” that Albert will be back. I think all these discussions need to assume Albert will be back.
In all three sets of “assumptions”, the Cards front office has recently been on record. That is:
1. We are intererested in Haren
2. We are interested in Oswalt
3. We won’t trade Pujols and we want him back on a long term deal
I am in violent agreement that the team has been tracking to a certain payroll level. What I am saying is that perhaps DeWitt has decided that he will forego profits to juice payroll to try to win while Albert is here. Will he absorb losses, probably not. But it seems reasonable that if he enjoys a 20% rate of return today, that he might decide to accept less for 2-5 years while Albert is in his prime.
Just win
Assuming Albert will be back
Is NOT the way to run a franchise. Winning now is the best way to assure such things. If he can have his cake and eat it too, why would he leave?
Check with Cleveland if you think assuming someone will be back is a good idea.
come on
are we really thinking about constructing this team with Albert not being her in 2012? of course they are building the whole roster around that.
Just win
Not to be sacriligious or anything
But, if he walks away and we have that 16MM, we can find another 1b. Granted he won’t be historically great like Albert, but they have to know that the best way to keep him is to continue winning, put a good team around him and give him money. If that isn’t enough and he wants NYY 30MM type money, they have to realize that if that’s his top priority, he very well could be gone.
So, I think they are taking him into consideration, but it’s not a lock.
We can probably plug in Adrian Gonzalez there for $16m/yr going forward
with a bit of deferred cash and a longer-than-we’d-probably-like contract. That’s obviously a downgrade, but it’s not a horrendous one.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with this, to my chagrin
The Cardinals cannot afford to give him something like 8Y$230M. They simply cannot afford it. The organization would be better off going after someone like Gonzalez, who would probably love to play in St. Louis since he’d probably hit 50 homers every year playing in our ballpark, and then spending another $15M or so among a starter and veteran middle infielders each season.
I think the Holliday contract served two purposes:
- To Albert: “See Albert, we WILL pay to upgrade this roster and go after WS titles.”
- Privately Discussed “Ok, if Albert walks, we can still build around Holliday, Rasmus, and Wainwright — and maybe bring in Adrian Gonzalez or Prince Fielder to replace him for less, and spend the rest on upgrading the rest of our roster.”
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Yeah
obviously, I love Albert and I want him in the BOB until he retires. But $30m per year is simply too much for us to afford, especially long term. I just don’t see how we can afford him if he wants any more than $25m, and that’s stretching it (and probably not a +EV deal for us in the long run either, without factoring in nebulous marketing revenue).
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 23, 2010 5:13 AM EDT up reply actions
We'll have more money than that for a 1B if Albert walks away.
I’m sure the FO has already decided how much it can spend on Pujols per year and is assuming that money gets spent. If it’s on Pujols, great. If not, they’ll probably have $25 million+ per year to spend on Pujols’s replacement at 1B and on upgrades at other positions. That is how a ballclub would responsibly manage it’s budget and put a winning product on the field come what may. If they’re seriously looking at adding Oswalt and his salary, they obviously think that they can fit an extra $16M/year into that budget. Which mean’s DeWitt is opening the wallet something fierce.
I may be entirely wrong on this
But, from their perspective, isn’t $25MM for Albert different from $25MM for Gonzalez/MIF/bargain bin starter?
I would think so. I can’t imagine they say to Albert “We are willing to go to $28 million, but if you aren’t taking that, we can split that $28 million elsewhere.” I think Albert would be the exception to a certain self imposed cap?
That's not what I said at all actually
I’m saying that making assumptions on things you can’t possibly know is “a bunch of shit”. And I think that most people would agree with me.
The payroll numbers simply don’t work. Forgoing profits? For what? We’re winning our division right now, and we have one of the best records in the National League. We have two starters who might be back and two position players that might be back by the end of the year. True, Garcia could regress a bit and Carp could get injured, Penny and Lohse might not make it back, and Ludwick and Freese might not be the same players when they return, but if we’re assuming the worst, why are we committing to bringing in a Roy Oswalt, who isn’t going to help us anyway if all that other shit happens?
The Cardinals can’t just run a deficit as a team for 3-4 seasons. Our attendance really can’t go up that much, and ticket prices going up is a zero sum game really, as declining attendance due to higher ticket prices would probably offset those gains. The bond payments on the stadium debt are non-negotiable. I could see payroll going to $110M in the short term, but we’re talking $120M+ for at least 1 year and probably 2 or 3. I don’t see how that’s possible given the current revenue.
Baseball is a business, and it’s been a very profitable one for DeWitt and Co. since they took over the team in ‘95. They’ve also won a lot of games and dominated this division with a payroll right around where it is now, adjusting for inflation. I see no reason to deviate from that plan when the current one is working and putting us in a risky situation that could end up being a disaster.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I'm off to work
I don’t disagree with any of this. I’m just saying that going from very profitable to profitable may be somehting DeWitt is willing to do. DeWitt is also aware that part of the Cardinal mystique is that they win more WS than anyone but the Yankees so taking a run like this will help the brand.
I’ve also read your comments lower that building a farm system and cost-controlled players is the plan. I see no evidence of that. I think Mo is Walt Jocketty II and they are using the farm prospects to buy ML players. What they have done in the minor leagues is turned a bunch of low level prospects into serviceable ML players which is brilliant — I hope they can keep doing it.
Let’s remember the Cards tanked in the playoffs last year. Oswalt/Haren instead of Garcia is a huge upside IMHO. I can see why they would want to buy this insurance to get them into round 2 and possibly into WS.
Just win
I don't see how adding Oswalt or Haren
makes playoff success more likely. Remember, we lost the games started by Carpenter and Wainwright. Carpenter was lights out all year and had his worst start in LA in October. The playoffs are as much about luck as skill. I would not feel any more confident with Haren or Oswalt starting Game 3 over Jaime with Jaime in the ’pen come the NLDS.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
We're not winning in the playoffs with Oswalt or Haren
If we lose games that were started by Carp and WW and we can’t hit guys like Randy Wolf and Vincente fucking Padilla. We were clearly the better baseball team on paper in that series……and we got swept.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Can Oswalt or Haren play LF as a defensive replacement?
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
Let me ask you this — why are the Cards so actively talking up Oswalt and Haren if they don’t think they can afford to bump up payroll — what’s the point? Clearly they think they can do just what you say they can’t or we wouldn’t be hearing all these comments from the team.
Or maybe it’s to drive up the price for whatever teams are really in the mix? Especially if it’s the Reds?
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
I would, in his shoes
they’re all set to contend for the next three years. How long is his contract? Oh, three years!
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 23, 2010 5:15 AM EDT up reply actions
he could change his mind
but apparently he’s already indicated he’s not interested in the reds, which would of course nix any deal – admittedly he could be playing hardball to get with the cards, and if he sees it’s not going to happen perhaps he’d jump at a deal to the reds.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
if we keep our core of
Pujols, holliday, rasmus, molina, carpenter, wainwright. Oswalt could be had. Assuming he waives his 2012 option or at least restuctures. Luddy will be gone after 2011. And if we don’t make this move. And we end up keeping the same core of guys in 6 years we will prolly look back and wonder if we coulda had a ring or two if we woulda pulled the trigger now.
Another way to look at it. If it gets us a ring it is worth it. Also maybe the astros are just throwing are name out there to get more from the phillies.
by rumors on Jul 22, 2010 10:48 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Anyone around here want to run the World Series Probability Added by adding Oswalt to our staff?
I’m guessing he’s not more than a 2-3% increase in us winning the World Series.
You do realize that we have the 3rd best pitching staff in the NL right now, right? And that the 4th and 5th starters won’t pitch more than 3 games in the entire postseason?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
EXACTLY
This is why I can’t grasp why we’re thinking about this trade? Go after a stud MIF like Drew!
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 22, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
The whole thing is a non-starter for me
Why not just go get Westbrook, who will be cheap, and then look around and see if a middle infield upgrade is out there? Or just wait and see if Lohse can make a couple of rehab starts before the deadline?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
TLR seems to think the priorities are unchanged
at least he still wants to see a move made
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Probably a reasonable stance
given we haven’t been healthy. I just don’t like the idea of passing on an ace. Again, that’s just me.
oswalt can nix a trade to the phils
and i think he would. he has the upper hand on the stros, imo, and if he wants st. louis then it will be st. louis or nobody.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
THIS is what the key issue is
Oswalt WANTS St. Louis. that’s why this (talking about this, at least) is happening. this is the ONLY reason this happening.
"The outfield is deep and playing him straight-away, and the infield is the same, except first, second, third, and short are playing him to pull."
-Mike Shannon
Rasmus won't be in arb2 till...
2013, right? He won’t go to arby this fall, as he will only have exactly two years service time. 2011 should be pre-arby, and 2012 arby-1. Suddenly…“I’m thinking Arby’s”.
If you see a guy open the car door for his girlfriend, either the car is new or the girlfriend is.
by cardzfanbub on Jul 22, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
He's Super 2
He’ll be arb eligible next season actually.
We should be locking him up for his arb years, imo. It will be cheaper that way.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I think we should've locked him up last year
that’s what I’d have been trying to do as a GM. He was somewhat disappointing overtly and we could’ve low-balled him with a Longoria-type deal, I think. Now I think he gets a bit more.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Cot's says...
arb1 in 2012. Super 2 usually applies to players with less than three years, but greater than 2 years and 120+ days (or so). Colby will have exactly two years.
If you see a guy open the car door for his girlfriend, either the car is new or the girlfriend is.
by cardzfanbub on Jul 23, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
unless we give them miller
and let them pay oswalt. i suspect either that is the discussion, or else we are just playing games to negotiate for haren and/or keep the reds off oswalt.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
dan you hit the nail right on the head
If we have to give up Miller, the question is not the payroll, the option, or Oswalt’s fastball velocity. If we have to give up Miller the question is are we really getting the most we can for our top prospect?
I think it’s safe to say the answer to that would be no.
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
Yeah
I’ve got to imagine Miller lands Haren, who is cheaper and better.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2010 4:51 AM EDT up reply actions
free haircuts
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Yes, and half a year is a more representative sample of their skills than the last 3-4 years
Haren has been better than Oswalt in xFIP every year since 2006. He’s amassed 15.2 WAR in since the start of 2008, against Oswalt’s 9.6 WAR.
Haren is 3 years younger, and a much better bet to be better going forward. Seriously, Haren is the much better pitcher.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
i would much rather have Haren than Oswalt
Friendlier contract also
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 22, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
i'd rather have haren
but he costs miller – oswalt doesn’t, unless the stros pay his salary.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
And let me clarify
I’m not saying we should trade for Haren. But he’s a much better target than Oswalt, IMO. I don’t want either and I agree with you that if we add anything, it should be someone like Westbrook (and even that is kinda “meh” in my mind).
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
maybe that's what we're doing
scaring the dbacks to think we’re moving in a different direction? dun Dun DUN!
"He’s in his own world out there. He says he doesn’t cuss. I disagree." - Skip Schumaker on Jason Motte
Austin Wilson, please don't be a tease!
it is not safe to say no
Miller may never even put up one year as good as the one Oswalt is having right now.
Yup
He might also put up 6 cost controlled years as good as Roy is putting up right now.
Does everyone forget the fucking Mark Mulder deal? Do we really want to do that again? Why? Why?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
by fourstick on Jul 22, 2010 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
those are the two extremes there
And the Mulder looks worse then it really was because after he pitched a good season for us he got hurt. And then we resigned him.
Really the trade was Haren for Mulders 2005 And 2006 years. Mark was also still young when we traded for him. And Haren was also Major league ready.
Wow....that's some real powers of rationalization there
So if Oswalt gets hurt after 2011, and we’re paying him $16M in 2012 to do nothing, you’re ok with that?
It’s a very similar situation — we’re trading a potential star starter (and our top position player prospect most likely, Descalso) down the line for an overpaid pitcher who might be declining.
We were really looking for a #2 pitcher in 2005. Oswalt would be our #4 starter right now in terms of pitching this season. Why are we even considering this?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
first off
if we get Oswalt I doubt we will be paying $16 Mil for him.
And yes, if we get him and he has helps us this year, and then has a 16 win season in 2011, and follows up with getting hurt in 2012 I’m okay with the deal. That sucks. But miller is just as likely to get hurt next year as Oswalt.
even though he seems to be requiring teams to pick up his $16M option?
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
MLBTR has it
that he may not require the 2012 option if StL is the destination
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
then we wont get Oswalt
I don’t believe we should, or will get Oswalt if we have to pay the $16 Mil for 2012.
I also think if he wants to go to a contender he will have to rework that some how. But if he is unwilling to do that then the i do not believe the Cardinals will trade for him.
He makes $16M next year for sure
Sounds to me like he’ll take a deferral on his option, but he still wants his option picked up.
If I’m St. Louis, I ask him for an extra year (2013) at $12M ($4M deferred from 2012 and an $8M contract for that year) in return for picking up his 2012 option. This would make far more sense, as we’d get him for an extra year at a reduced rate of $12M per season, and with Lohse and Carp coming off the books after 2012, keeping him around for another year is affordable and probably smart.
That said, it would still be a risk that he’s worth that contract in 2013.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
But we'd have to trade more prospects for Haren right?
"I don't like to sound egotistical, but every time I stepped up to the plate with a bat in my hands, I couldn't help but feel sorry for the pitcher." Rogers hornsby.
No one knows.
Some people think that it will take less to get Haren. To me, that reasonable contract would suggest that it would take a better package of prospects to get him. My great hope is that this Oswalt-to-Cardinals explosion was ignited by Mo to create leverage in his discussions with Arizona for Haren.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
pass
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I could ask you (the pluraly "you" bringing up "ifs") this
If Oswalt ends up getting us two World Series Titles in two years and Shelby Miller quits baseball…which side gets the better end of the deal?
The Bears
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
And, I'll bring up and "if."
What if Oswalt’s back gives out and we pay him $32MM to not pitch while Miller goes on to help the Astros win 4 pennants. It’s one thing to have a young flamethrower putting up great lines in the forgotten media market of Oakland and it’s another to have him rubbing your face in the trade bi-weekly due to the unbalanced schedule.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
If you want to "What if" all day, I bet I can come up with at least 47 bad scenarios that include this deal.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
but if it works out
in a few year we’ll be talking about trading Chevy Camirillo (our top prospect) for Shelby Miller, and it will all come full circle
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
by STLRegalia on Jul 22, 2010 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
stop NOW
"The outfield is deep and playing him straight-away, and the infield is the same, except first, second, third, and short are playing him to pull."
-Mike Shannon
Everyone does remember Haren pitched in the majors
Whereas Miller is in low class a ball. Big ass difference.
by lopey986 on Jul 22, 2010 10:11 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He's on a pitch count
That’s why he’s only throwing 3-4 IP per game. And he’s been dominant, by the way!
This is a joke, right?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
errrm
What are you saying here?
"...and pujols has given st louis the lead"
The Best Defensive Play I Have Seen in Person
follow me on teh twitterz @greenfieldt
by tgreenfield on Jul 22, 2010 11:11 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
you fucking kidding?
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
by prophetjohn on Jul 22, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you realize
that Miller is a top 50 prospect after this season, when Haren never cracked the top 100?
And that Barton was the key piece in that trade as he was our top prospect and a catcher with a great LH bat at the time?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
What about Adam Wainwright?
We can round and round like this and nobody will win.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
the more senarios that we throw out
the more it will be clear that a persons prospect ranking does not mean they will be as good as Roy Oswalt.
Personally I think Miller is 2-3 years away from the majors and 4 years away from being a #2 starter. But he could prove me wrong. He could impress LaDuncan enough in Spring training that they bring him up without pitching in AAA as McClellan did. Or his arm could explode next year like many of young pitchers.
hehe. Remember that one time when we traded JD Drew for Adam Wainwright. Suckers.
That I do,
and Adam Wainwright was a prospect I had irrational belief in. Really, he is the first one I followed after Ankiel. And I tried to make every Redbirds vs. I-Cubs game in Des Moines to see him pitch.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
There's no such thing as a pitching prospect
Too much risk they would pan out to close to potential
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah Erik
I agree. Hard to argue with the stats.
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
...
RT @Erik_Manning Per Victor Wang’s research on prospects, top 50 pitching prospects have a 33% failure rate. 51% become middle relief material. 14% become regulars (think 3rd/4th starters). 2.5% become stars. The odds of Miller becomes what we all hope he does are pretty low.
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
nice catch
"He’s in his own world out there. He says he doesn’t cuss. I disagree." - Skip Schumaker on Jason Motte
Austin Wilson, please don't be a tease!
They join the clergy.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 23, 2010 5:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Eggsactly
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
oh, come on
you hearing erik manning say it last night does not make it true
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
by prophetjohn on Jul 22, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Look at the stats
I’m a Miller fan but the chances of him living up to the hype aren’t great. Saying that I don’t want to trade Miller for Oswalt.
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
i did
and i still think it’s a dumb statement
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
by prophetjohn on Jul 22, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
It's a bit premature. . .
since we don’t even know what the deal would look like, but there are several differences between a proposed Shelby Miller for Roy Oswalt deal and the infamous Haren deal:
- Haren had already put up 118 IP of a sub-4.50 FIP at the major league level. He was a more proven, and therefore less risky commodity than a 19yo who hasn’t even thrown half that many professional innings yet, and none above single-A.
- At the time of the Mulder acquisition, Mulder was coming off the worse season in his career, with peripherals that were cratering; Oswalt OTOH, is having a season with peripherals right in line with the rest of his career:
MULDER
Year Age ERA GS IP ERA+ HR/9 BB/9 SO/9 SO/BB
2000 22 5.44 27 154.0 86 1.3 4.0 5.1 1.28
2001 23 3.45 34 229.1 126 0.6 2.0 6.0 3.00
2002 24 3.47 30 207.1 125 0.9 2.4 6.9 2.89
2003 25 3.13 26 186.2 142 0.7 1.9 6.2 3.20
2004 26 4.43 33 225.2 103 1.0 3.3 5.6 1.69
OAK (5 yrs) 3.92 150 1003.0 114 0.9 2.7 6.0 2.24
OSWALT
Year Age ERA GS IP ERA+ HR/9 BB/9 SO/9 SO/BB
2001 23 2.73 20 141.2 170 0.8 1.5 9.1 6.00
2002 24 3.01 34 233.0 144 0.7 2.4 8.0 3.35
2003 25 2.97 21 127.1 148 1.1 2.0 7.6 3.72
2004 26 3.49 35 237.0 125 0.6 2.4 7.8 3.32
2005 27 2.94 35 241.2 144 0.7 1.8 6.9 3.83
2006 28 2.98 32 220.2 150 0.7 1.5 6.8 4.37
2007 29 3.18 32 212.0 140 0.6 2.5 6.5 2.57
2008 30 3.54 32 208.2 119 1.0 2.0 7.1 3.51
2009 31 4.12 30 181.1 102 0.9 2.1 6.8 3.29
2010 32 3.12 19 124.0 133 0.8 2.4 8.5 3.55
10 Seasons 3.22 290 1927.1 135 0.8 2.1 7.4 3.57
- The Mulder trade included one other blue-chip prospect, Daric Barton; so far, there is no indication that an Oswalt trade would include anyone but Miller (or even Miller, for that matter).
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jul 22, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
based on that table
in movies, when they zoom in on the main character and he or she screams “noooooo”, from now on, it should just be “loooooohse”
Excellent point.
This trade deadline is yet another example of how terrible that Lohse deal is. Essentially, Kyle Lohse is preventing us from adding a true impact starter (assuming one is willing to part with top prospects).
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
but with new bionic forearms, Lohse will be a true impact starter?
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
Seriously
Didn’t you guys see ROOKIE OF THE YEAR?!?!
Testicle-exploding shit storms, to date: T.E.S.S. '08, T.E.S.S. '09, T.E.S.S. '10
And we won't even have to trade anything away for him!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I guess everyone could just get on my Boat already.
Oswalt is overpaid and if we’re trading a prospect like miller, trade for some cost controlled player that won’t ruin the whole payroll.
if we give up that kind of talent, we'd have to get salary relief in return.
The other option is that we ask him to completely waive his no trade clause in exchange for picking up the option, and then trade him again this winter. Or next winter.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
I'd be worried he gets hurt or becomes immoveable
If we’re RELYING on the ability to move him (and his contract) on in a year, I don’t think that’s a good strategy because of the high risk involved.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2010 4:52 AM EDT up reply actions
why not work around the Oswalt option by deferring Carps 2012 option?
and for 2011, we should try to unload luddy in the offseason for a cheap talent.(hey I have nothing against luddy, I just believe in Craig)
Players don't defer entire salaries.
Most likely, I think we will see an extension for Carp that incorporates his 2012 option, but lowers his 2012 salary.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Stay off of Cody's boat.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
by RiverRat on Jul 22, 2010 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
wonder if this could be another ploy like last year
to try to get another team that we are negotiating with to quickly except a trade offer because they think we are gonna move on ala mark derosa deal
by CentralILcardsfan on Jul 22, 2010 4:15 AM EDT reply actions
i think the cards preference is haren, for sure
but mo has stated he’d rather part with money than talent, and haren would require talent whereas oswalt would require money. so it’s not a perfect scenario for mo.
what if the cards are stringing oswalt along until the deadline passes, knowing we’re his preference over the reds and so he’d nix any cincy deal in order to hold out for a cards deal?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
OT: Inception is a horrible move (spoilerish)
I went to see it right after Jaime Garcia’s perfect fourth inning and I kept thinking “If I miss a Jaime perfecto for this, I will never forgive myself”. The script was in love with it’s own concept and just explained explained explained. Internal flaws are all over the place and cringe-worthy. All the characters were flat except for Leo, whose character is developed with all the grace of a jackhammer to the head. The dude just reveals his darkest secrets here and there with very little motivation. Oh, you waltzed into my dream to spy on my painful memories? Let me show you around! There’s a secret floor in my dreamworld that I won’t let you see? Hope you aren’t too impatient because you’ll see what’s down there in ten minutes!
In fact, no one seems motivated here and after their introductions, the film never takes a second look into most of the other characters; Ellen Page is some random college student who can draw mazes or something. Ken Watanabe is some kind of wealthy dude or something. Tom Hardy is… I dunno, some vaguely British guy. Leo’s wife never comes off as anything more than creepy and demented, more like a horror movie villain than a love interest.
It’s a shame, really, because the idea had potential. But the movie just feels weighted down the whole time by its premise, never allowing the viewer to suspend disbelief long enough to bite into the plot. The point to the movie, really, is the gorgeous visuals: elaborately constructed cities, ultra-modern buildings, a Bond-like winter fortress, all twisting and turning and destructing. Christopher Nolan has quite a touch for filming urban landscapes as he has already showed in turning downtown Chicago into Gotham. But it’s all there to cover up for a film that would much rather tell than show and seems to create action sequences for no other reason than that it can’t come up with any way to keep things moving (what was the point to the fight scene in Mombasa? Who was chasing them? The point was never revisted).
Heist movies are my favorite film genre and sci-fi movies are close second. Leonardo DiCaprio is one of my favorite actors and The Dark Knight was a knockout. How disappointing, then, that this fails so completely on every level.
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
isn't there a fanpost on this?
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Wan't as Turned Off As You...
..I thoroughly enjoyed myself at this moovie – yes, there are some flaws, but these days Inception passes for an A flick when all you ever get is mindless explosions, re-treads, empty-headed cartoons, and sparkly vampire teenage melodramas. And hay, Ellen Page!!!!!!
:=8D
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
it was horrible-ish for that reason
it’s the problem with flawed concepts applied with realism.
leave too much unexplained and it’s insulting to the pensive viewer…explain too much and you’re trying too hard to make the concept work.
I remember hating Contact for similar reasons..
Also, I don't know if this is concerning
but I am falling in love with Jaime Garcia. I mean, I actually love him. I think we’re made for each other.
Still bitching to contact.
i'd second guess any straight man who keeps his facial hair that well groomed
by YesWeOquendo on Jul 22, 2010 5:17 AM EDT up reply actions
dogfight!
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
you guys are lucky jaime isn't on my radar, i would totally win him.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
Who's VEB sponsoring on this?
Or should we all pick one and do a pool?
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I say we protest!
For the sole reason that Arquimedes Nieto isn’t an option.
Really? With a name like that? Come on….
WHAT
boooooooo MiLB!
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that's pretty egregious
The original Archimedes was the coolest, and a baseball player named after him inspires visions of ingeniously simple death rays using only large mirrors and the light from the sun… in pitching form of course.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I like Seth Schwindenhammer.
I also like Gookie Dawkins a lot.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Gotta be Didi Gregorious.
In any case, the winner will be coming out of the Razor Shines bracket. Book it.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 22, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Beamer Weems
"They punched me a lot," Holliday said of the celebration [after his July 18 walk-off single]. "But they were good punches."
I enjoyed that.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
by RiverRat on Jul 22, 2010 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Seems reasonable.
Beer and bacon-wrapped hot dogs will be going for $80,000 per, but hey, no prob.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 22, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
The plus side is
they don’t have to sell very many of them.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
This trade makes sense if some of the players involved from the Cards side
are current roster players who would free up payroll. The only two guys who I can think of are Ludwick and Schumaker. If Ludwick and Schumaker are involved then the Cards same some 7/8 million while acquiriing 16 million. I don’t think the Stros want to pick up part of Oswalt’s contract and I don’t think the Cards want to give up Miller or other top flight prospects. Therefore, if the right players are involved this might work for both teams.
I really don’t want to see Ludwick go but I think Jay is really good and they might just be a better team with Jay in the line-up even though Ludwick might be the better player. Jay fits perfectly in the #2 spot and has very good baseball smarts. Ludwick is only here at best for the remainder of the year so I would gladly sub Jay for Ludwick and pick up Oswalt.
Just and Idea – it will be real interesting to see who is being discussed as the players involved.
If the goal is to win the 2010 World Series,
then Ludwick stays. He is a very good defensive right fielder and a very good offensive player. Plus, for his production, he is cheap. I don’t see him being involved in a trade.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
RYAN FUCKING LUDWICK DOES NOT APPROVE OF ALL THIS TRADE RYAN LUDWICK TALK.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
by RiverRat on Jul 22, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
mark my words...!
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
you're staring at RiverRat's boat?
you’re taking notes about it?
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
NO, it's pretty much just been Yadi andI
beating this drum for a year now.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
in olde english, too.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
i've decided i'm going to rec this every time to ensure that ludwick is not traded
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
i also have some pie stashed away
and i understand that shit is hard to get in STL
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
Ludwick is not FA eligible until after 2011
So it is not a certainty that he “is only here at best for the remainder of the year…” He will cost more next year, this is true, but it is certainly possible that the team will keep him.
by ArkansasTravs on Jul 22, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
The simple truth of the matter is
We can afford one of these two, if not both. It befuddles and vexes me when people say we simply CAN NOT afford a player. It annoys me to no end. I don’t mean to sound dickish, but that’s not the case at all.
I, like many others in this community, think the most prudent way of remaining competitive for years is to develop our own young cheap talent, I also enjoy seeing a homegrown player attain a level of success. But, baseball is a sport without a salary cap, and spending money is part of being successful.
Now correct me if I’m wrong, but in the last decade we’ve had a fair amount of success, right? A decent amount of playoff game revenue? A lightly soiled and devirginized World Series trophy??
I understand that this isn’t the most scientific or all encompassing way of quantifying these such things, but I think this warrants mentioning…
Our attendance ranking, since 2005 has been no lower than 4th. I understand a lot more goes into these things, but at 6:30 a.m. when I wrote this, it was the best way I could think of to package the information.
Below is our attendance rankings juxtaposed with our payroll ranking since 2004.
2010 – 4th in attendance, 12th highest payroll.
2009 – 4th in attendance, 13th highest payroll.
2008 – 4th in attendance, 11th highest payroll.
2007 – 4th in attendance, 11th highest payroll.
2006 – 3rd in attendance, 11th highest payroll.
2005 – 3rd in attendance, 6th highest payroll.
2004 – 8th in attendance, 9th highest payroll.
2010 is obviously based off average attendance thus far. Again, I’m not wanting to piss anyone off, or have anyone say that this isn’t all encompassing, but I think it’s patently ridiculous for people to say we can’t afford top flight players.
We are entering the last 15-20 years of Albert’s peak, let’s make the fucking most of it.
maths. they work.
The Cardinals have debts and expenses. And though their attendance is high, the pool of ticket buyers are not generally making the same range of coin as those in big markets — and this is reflected in average ticket prices. In addition, so-called big market teams are also milking it via their own media outlets, which adds to their financial flexibility.
People are not just “saying” these things. They are bringing evidence with them. Disagreeing with this evidence is one thing, but implying people are pulling it out of their asses is another thing.
We only do that with gifs.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Again
I’m not advocating spending like the Yanks/Sawx/Mets, I’m merely stating we could afford to spend more. Again, I’m not advocating spending like the Yanks, I’m merely saying we can afford more, we have just been sticking to a budget. Maybe you know how much they make through endorsements, ads, memorabilia, brats, and beers much better than I do, but I really don’t think we are to the brim of our payroll.
I would love to See Ossie in a Cards Uni...
…but I just don;t see it happening. Or Haren for that matter. If the FO make a moove I see moore along the lines of a Westbrook/Guthrie type, or if we’re lucky a Ricky Nolasco. No empiricals to back any of this up, just good ol’ Holstein foresight and divination based on the arrangement of my Coco Puffs in my cereal bowl this moorning…
;=8)
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
then I put forth that the budget is in place for a very good reason:
Albert Pujols.
Besides, define spending more? There are only 6 teams spending over $120 million. The teams below them, including the Cardinals, are spending just under $106 million. And the thing is, unless my math is wrong, jumping that gap is not going make more than a difference of one or two players — while in the very near future we have to pay Albert Pujols, Adam Wainwright, and Yadier Molina.
And unless I’m mistaken, they’re still paying for that stadium. Not to mention — the payroll budget does not include the budget for signings and player development, and if you expect this team to compete in the Latin American market and keep their scouts going while we continue to have low picks in the draft, you have to earmark money for that too.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Y2S
You make a very good point.
I think one player, possibly two, can make a huge difference. Maybe our disagreement is philosophical. I think spending a little more now is going to pay off long term, I think one pitcher could be a HUGE difference come post season play, GOBs allowing us to make it and all that jazz.
scroll up and read fourstick's comment, too.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I think you are failing to factor in the $16MM in stadium debt payments the organization makes,
as well as the raises due other players (i.e., Pujols, Wainwright, Lohse, and Yadi).
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
You realize that the Yankees and Sawx are sticking to their budgets too, right?
If the Yankees were spending the same percentage of revenue that the Cardinals do on payroll, they would be spending $220M per season + the $60M lux tax. $280M per season on players. That’s about 55% of their revenue.
It’s been proven time and again that teams that spend more than 55% of their revenues on payroll are generally not successful in the long term — even the Yankees.
You also have to understand that if we make this deal that in 2012 our payroll will be north of $125M (assuming we pick up Carp’s option, of which I’m dubious). Revenues have been right around $195M since Busch III opened. That’s 64% of operating revenue tied up just in payroll, and with below average players at SS, 2B, and possible even RF. If we’re spending that kind of coin on the major league roster, we’re certainly not dropping multi-million signing bonuses on 1st round picks or Latin American players, and we’re definitely not drafting over slot since the money will not be there to do so. So, no new Shelby Miller’s, Brett Wallace’s, or Zach Cox’s in our minor league system — we’ll end up taking the kid we can sign for peanuts and who has moderate upside.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
So what is the figure if Skip/Lud
are gone, and we bring in Haren? If there is a handy spread sheet I could look at, then maybe that changes my opinion. Also, is that $195 accounting for the uptick in attendance this year? Someone posted earlier that Dewitt is saying we have more financial flexibility due to that.
Handy spreadsheets?
They specialize in that stuff here
Click on the link for 2010-2014 payroll obligations to get the spreadsheet.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Make sure to add in $16M for Pujols next year and $50B for him in 2012-2020 :-D
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
No problem
Cots is awesome for salary projections and stuff. I love that site.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
That spreadsheet is so nice...
I got a little too excited…
"I don't like to sound egotistical, but every time I stepped up to the plate with a bat in my hands, I couldn't help but feel sorry for the pitcher." Rogers hornsby.
the towels are available for everyone...
to the left and right of the blog and under your seat cushions
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
all of this seems to beg for a salary dump of Lohse's albatross
…now finding someone willing to take him for us is the trick… is there anyway that we can convince Hendry that, Lohse is indeed Carlos Silva?
While Spinning.
How much were yours? 34 dollars. You know you got a pay raise... right?
He has a NTC!!!!
Every year this time people keep saying we need to trade him off. It’s not going to happen.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
no option! haircut! Washington won't trade him!
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
excuse me, miss? i wanted to ask a question
About this kyle that I purchased…. Yes, it seems that it’s broken…. No, no, just normal usage . . . . Yes, I was wondering if I could return him for a refund. . . . A receipt? Umm, let me look…. That ding on his wrist? I … Uh … I think that was there when I bought him? . . . . Well, he may have gotten hit with a baseball or two….
Store credit only after 30 days? Well, what models do you carry? …. No, no, I am familiar with the ponson 300 and the kippinator.I am not interested in either model. . . . Have you anything in a Haren or an Oswalt? . . . . No? A westbrook or a carmona? A nolasco? . . . .No, I would not be interested in a zito. . . . A weaver? Really?!? Which model? . . . . Oh, the first-run jeff edition. No, sorry. . . .
Listen, I got a nice used pineiro GT here a few years back, and with a little tinkering . . . . Out of stock, huh? Well, it looks like kyle and I are going to have to head home. Maybe we can get him up and running.
"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."
by tom s. on Jul 22, 2010 12:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 9 recs
no, it's extend
didn’t you hear. They’re playing one hundred and sixty FIVE reg season games this year
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions
here we go
Q: So how would you describe your financial flexibility to make a deal relative to the personnel you have to deal?
DeWitt: We have financial flexibility. We’re positioned to take on payroll if it was something that would improve the club. In terms of creating a deal, we do have some prospects we would make available. My sense is that we would tend to shy from a “rental” deal that requires us to give up a ton of talent. Dollars is one thing; talent is another. Talent is harder to get. Everybody wants young talent that is either close or is already big-league ready. Those kind of players are hard to get and hard to give up.
Q: I assume you owe much of that flexibility to attendance?
DeWitt: Our advance sale was not quite what it was the year before. But we’re seeing fans coming out buying tickets the week of the game, the day of the game. Attendance has been terrific for us. We raised our projection this year (from 3 million to 3.2 million) so there will be less of a margin. But our support remains tremendous. It’s a big factor.
they make their projections based on advance sales, yeah?
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
so it would seem
it’s reasonable enough
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions
so basically
The team was scuffling while everyone was buying season tickets
and now the team’s winning so all these tickets are free.
we’re effed!
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
But
Is that financial flexibility enough to add one of the two most bandied about pitchers? I hope so.
I dunno
We keep hearing how cheap DeWitt is, not to much on this site, but he keeps showing that he is willing to spend the money and throws out a quality product every year. I don’t see them getting Oswalt while having to pay him $16 mil in 2012 though.
And they probably shouldn't get Oswalt if they have to pay $16MM in 2012,
even if he defers some of it.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
i would go ahead and say
They should not get Oswalt if they have to pay $18MM in 2012. Just throw that probably out the water there.
I could be wrong as well
but I recall seeing an official MLB graphic that basically showed the Cards payroll as in line with revenue.
In other words, I’m not sure if attendance tells enough of the cash flow story. Maybe it does, but I’m just saying… like you said.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I did!
Bought a Holliday jersey today!
by lopey986 on Jul 22, 2010 10:18 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You may be 100% correct.
I haven’t seen that graphic, and I certainly don’t believe our front office is being cheap, I lean more towards responsible/frugal. The one thing I argue would be that we are entering into a time frame where we (with postseason success/Albert career milestones) don’t want to be a nickle smart and a dollar stupid. I think SMART spending such as Haren would be a great idea.
In case, GOBs forbid Carp would leave, we have someone to pair with Waino going forward. I don’t know, I just think spending a little more would really go a long way. I am not particularly enamored with the idea of Oswalt.
I'm curious now, who do you want?
I don’t think anyone’s available.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
eh, n/m
my reading is broke.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
It's okay
It’s still early.
The whole Haren situation isn’t only a short term fix, or a “one that got away” situation. It’s more of a relatively young pitcher who has been dominant at times being potentially available at a time where it seems we can buy low.
Try this:
Raise our average ticket price to that of the Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, or Cubs and see what happens to our attendance. Can you say “PLUMMET!”.
Our payroll has been pretty even around the same number the last few seasons. In terms of having a high payroll, there are a number of teams I can think of that would rather be in our situation than the payroll situation that they’re in right now. The Cubs would be one of those teams. The Mets would be another. I’m not willing to blow out our payroll and trade away our top prospect for a 33 year old pitcher who’s making $16M at the age of 36 in 2012.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t we win a World Series with the 11th highest payroll in baseball? With a rotation full of crappy pitchers thrown away by other clubs (which would include Chris Carpenter, who came to St. Louis in the Rule V draft)? Look, the playoffs are a total crapshoot. With our rotation, we’re set up to be a very good playoff team right now, as our top 3 starters are pitching like aces.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Two things
I don’t think anyone is advocating jacking up ticket prices.
And, I didn’t say jack up our payroll. The extremist example works both ways. Would you rather have what the Yankees did in the mid 90’s? With multiple trophies? SPEND MORE
That’s not what I was saying, I am advocating getting an elite pitcher and spending slightly more for a few years, rather than an outlandish spending splurge.
an elite pitcher *is* an outlandish spending splurge.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I'm just cut/pasting this, so I can't really comment further.
4 years/$44.75M (2009-12), plus 2013 club option
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I don't think that's outlandish
I think Oswalt would be if we give Miller in that deal and have to pick up his options.
paying for 12 sided dice in ONE playoffs crapshoot is worth throwing out TEN years of future success?
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
It's not ONE playoff.
All of our players aren’t under contract for a single season, and it’s not merely a crap shoot and just pull a straw type luck.
Yes, there is luck. But, doesn’t pitching typically carry the day in the postseason? I know we can go back and forth about this with counter examples, but didn’t CC and Carmona destroy the Yankees? If we could potentially trot out Waino/Carp/Haren, wouldn’t you like those odds?
and what exactly is your problem with Waino/Carp/Garcia???
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Good question.
I think Garcia is due for regression towards the mean.
I think he will be a very good pitcher for years to come, but I would just trust Haren more in a big spot. THAT has entirely to do with opinion, but again, it’s mine.
Garcia is due for it
But you’re expecting Oswalt to completely ignore the aging regression for pitchers, especially pitchers of his size (go look at Pedro Martinez — he went from a 5 WAR pitcher to a 2 WAR pitcher to a 1 WAR pitcher to the MLB version of Brett Favre). That’s some rose colored thinking right there sir. Considering that Garcia could regress to a league average pitcher and we’d STILL be money ahead on him for the next 2 seasons, this isn’t even a fair comparison.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I don't think a Haren deal is even on the table
If it was, our club wouldn’t be messing around with Oswalt.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
better tents?
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Im going to have to agree with y2s here
If we are making a move to win in the playoffs we need to get a position player. Any kind of move that we make for a pitcher would be made to help us get to the play offs. As far as pitchers go we really only need 1 guy who could counted on for 6.1 innings or so of 3-4 run ball.
We can’t keep running out Suppan and have him give us less than 5 innings.
There's plenty of room
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
I asked over at the AZ Snakepit
Someone said they need a SS and a LF. I suggested Jay, KMac and a spect orginially. Then suggested a pick 2 combo of Greene/Jay/Craig and a minor league arm. You think that’s enough and/or a fair offer?
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Evilfrog's in a boat, motherfucker, look at him!
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
now this is interesting... do we need an SP to back up the DL Brigade, or do we need a position player?
I’m not entirely clear.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
i'd feel much more comfortable with another SP
because we have no depth there.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Go back and look at how much the Yankee's teams in the late 90's cost...
They weren’t the evil empire in terms of spending back then. They built around cost-controlled players from their farm system like Pettitte, Jeter, Posada, and Bernie Williams while adding veteran FA around them like Tino Martinez, Scott Brosius, Paul O’Neill, Chuck Knoblauch, Jimmy Key, David Cone, David Wells, Cecil Fielder, Ruben Sierra, Darryl Strawberry.
Actually — how they built those awesome teams in the late 90’s is kinda the path we’re on here in St.Louis right now. Why blow it all up to go get a 33 year old starter who may be on the downswing of his career?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
You want Haren
and the situations aren’t all the different. There’s simply no need to trade for a #1 starter when we currently have three #1 starters. That’s what I’m saying.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Then that's where we disagree
I don’t think we NEED Haren for the regular season. Where, I believe Y2S, did a great job of pointing out earlier, we don’t know what this team is capable of when completely healthy. That’s a fact.
But, I think there could be a need for him in the postseason. And if it is, it’s too late to do that deal. Haren isn’t a regular season move, he’s a POST season move. I think a rotation of Waino/Carp/Haren/Garcia would be devastating in the post season. And with this team, I think we’re making the playoffs. We’ve seen some pretty god damn good teams unravel in the post season. Rolen/Edmonds/Pujols teams, I would just think another ace might stack things in our favor in the ’offs is all.
And you don't need a 4th #1 starter for the playoffs either
If we’re worried about the playoffs, we should be looking to upgrade our middle infield or 3B positions by dealing for someone like Dan Uggla.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
2 #1 starters and a rook...
…who is bound to fall to earth, at least a bit. And he has no ‘play-off experience’. I don;t think we can make the Haren/Oswalt situation work, but I DO think we should bring in one moore starter – one of the usual suspects I’ve been mentioning the last week or so. And even though we only NEED 3 starters in the play-off, its good to have depth in case Carp get hurt/needs rest or if Garcia tires or regresses. Lohse and Hawk are ok, but I’d sooner rely on Lohse and Westbrook or Lohse and Nolasco in that situation. And those guys won’t cost us nearly as mooch as Haren or Oswalt.
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
Not just tickets
Keep in mind that at the ol’ ballpark, the home team sells beer and food and tons of merch. Ticket prices are just the start of the income. There are also corporate signs all over the place, official sponsors, etc… I don’t know the Cardinals ratio, but I do know that, say, Six Flags makes more coin on carnie games that it does in ticket sales. Maybe DeWitt and company should start putting some “win the big stuffed Fredbird” games along the concourses.
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
Baseball teams make much more money on ticket sales than they do on concessions
Six Flags doesn’t have 35,000 showing up 82 times a year and paying $200 a pop for the best seats on the roller coaster, while collecting $100,000 by selling the ring toss booth to the local plumber’s union.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
They also don't own
YES, or MASN, etc. where most of the Yankees , Sox, and Mets Money is made. Hell IIRC Angelos owns the tv rights (or at least the station) for the Nats and the O’s.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
yup. that's what I said up there.
(personally I’m annoyed whenever someone comes in here and says there’s no Colby jerseys.
we’re trying to help you fill that mason jar! help us help youuuu.)
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
There are Colby
jersey’s and sherseys….I’ve seen them with my own eyes.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Anecdotal stuff here
I’m getting a lot more emails with ticketing gimmicks than I remember in a long time. Last ditch 50% off emails, etc. So while people fixate on attendance numbers, I am suspicious that the average revenue per ticket is down, possibly quite a bit so.
I bought some tickets early as usual, but not as many as normal. I mentioned this outside a Cards booth at the MVC tournament, and the ticket rep gave me his card and told me to call him the next AM. He took $100 off the already deep discounted Pujols Pack price for some nosebleeds. I was paying about $13 a seat for seven games on that deal, including 3 Cubs games. I also sell some tickets on Stubhub and am seeing a big difference in what I am getting in return for those. Now some of that is because I am trying to sell some Cubs games, and the Cubs suck….the Chicagoan’s aren’t going to come down in force, or at least pay the same $‘s to do it. It’s not just the Cubs games though. I just gave away tickets to a friend against the Phillies Tues, because they didn’t move online.
The stadium isn’t new anymore. There’s no all-star game. The weather this year sucks. The economy still is rough, and the more casual fan is as convinced as ever that they can play a game of chicken to get their tickets and come out way ahead. And they are right. I’m very skeptical that ticket sales are bringing in the same kind of revenue as years past, and I think they have those ads reminding us how important our support has been as a kind way of nudging us along.
I’ll be very surprised if we make a move for someone like Oswalt, at least while taking on the full contract. I have to say that I’d take something like that as a sign that the Pujols situation is looking iffy.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 22, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually
I think revenue per ticket is up, because DeWitt basically said so in his interview a few weeks back.
I think the reason you’re getting those offers is because they’re just trying to get the most people to the ballpark and they realize that if those tickets aren’t sold within 10 days of the actual game, that they aren’t probably getting sold at regular price, as people plan ahead more often these days because of the expense.
They’re basically getting the people who impulsively buy tickets with those prices, and a half price ticket is still more revenue (especially when you factor in concessions) than a non-purchased ticket.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
And, note,
that the promotion prices are virtually always for Monday-Thursday games, games that often don’t sell out since many out-of-town fans can’t get to those games as easily. I agree that their position here is that those tickets not sold within five days of game day are likely to not be sold and a butt in that seat, at a reduced or even free ticket, will still mean income through concessions, etc.
by ArkansasTravs on Jul 22, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
$100 million payroll right now for 2011...
That’s now without adding anything…
Obviously the thing to do is:
1) acquire Oswalt and negotiate an extension for a lower annual payout with deferred payments – he has to be amenable to this if he has any soul whatsoever. He gets out of Houston an onto a playoff team;
2) Non-tender Ryan thus saving $3.5 million
3) Make K-Mac a starter. He can be the fifth starter if Lohse doesn’t return or the sixth starter to replace one of our old/fragile starters when they inevitably break down. Otherwise K-Mac has to be traded or non-tendered b/c he’s arb eligible too.
4) Trade Ludwick. Absolutely. Save $8 million and give his job to Jay/Craig. If they fail bring in next year’s version of Randy Winn.
This keeps the lid on the 2011 payroll and helps the 2010 immensely.
Fire La Russa!
I'm not.
Acquiring Oz is OK if we don’t pay too heavily for him — read, if we don’t trade Miller. The other three, however, don’t work as well. Franklinhausen may be spooky, but there’s not another closer waiting in the wings — sorry, Jason Motte — who’s ready to take over in 2011. K-Mac has been terrific in the setup/fireman role, and getting guys out in the 7th and 8th is essentially as important as in the 9th. Don’t mess with success. I’m not opposed to a tradewick, but the “absolutely” part is wrong. Luddy should be traded if and only if value can be obtained for him. That is not demonstrated yet.
Patience, everyone. This is a good team without making any moves. Moves should only be made if they improve the team in the short run without damaging it in the long one.
StanTheManFan
Contributes any way he can.
He's normally a nuclear physicist
Except when writing for this list.
by StanTheManFan on Jul 22, 2010 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree with this
But why hasn’t K-Mac been made into a starter yet then? Also what would be do for a SS? Trade for S Drew? Do it!
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
Also don't forget Lynn
I think he definitely could be the 5th starter next year if he’s not included in a deal this year. Pitched best game of the season last night 6.2 ip 4 h 2 r 1 bb 11 k.
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
It does help to face Ankiel however heh
0-4 3 k.
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
RYAN FUCKING LUDWICK DOES NOT APPROVE OF ALL THIS TRADE RYAN LUDWICK TALK
did i do that right?
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
by IHeartBoog on Jul 22, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
When did Ludwick turn into Carp?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
he earned it.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Carpostolic Succession
Carpenter touched Luddy with his luggage, passing on the Cardinal Property of Not Giving A Fuck.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 22, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
my 2 cents
i would love to see roy oswalt in a cardinals uni. i really would. i think that DD could help him out and it would turn out just fine. like everybody else, i don’t like the money aspect of the deal, and i’m not sure what would have to be dealt in order to get him.
i’m sure that no matter what pitcher we trade for (other than westbrook), shelby miller will go to the other team. i just see no way for haren or oswalt to become a cardinal without miller going to arizona or houston.
according to a john marecek tweet, a potential ‘stumbling block’ for the oswalt trade is the fact that winn wears #44. for one, i see this being minor, and two, i’m sure winn would change numbers for roy. the only stumbling block i’m honestly seeing is $. well, that and if shelby miller is a part of the trade.
If a stumbling block is Winn not giving up the uniform number
a solution to that is to DFA Winn. The number becomes vacant, and Allen Craig stays in St. Louis.
That’s a scenario just full of winn.
Repeal The LaRussa Tax.
by Michael_68_1999 on Jul 22, 2010 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions
but his home run streak!
/runs into wall
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Winn is better than Craig.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 23, 2010 5:33 AM EDT up reply actions
because he is full of winn
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree.
But, we don’t even know if Nolasco is available. If we’re giving up Miller, lets get someone as good, cheaper, and younger.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Shelby Miller and when he signed
I might be mistaken, but I’m pretty sure Shelby Miller can’t be a part of the original trade package for Oswalt or any other player. He signed after the trading deadline last year and a player must be in a teams system for 1 full year after signing to be eligible to be traded. The only way he could be included in a trade this season would be as a PTBNL, but I can’t imagine a team willing to take a package where the center piece of the deal would be a PTBNL and risk him being injured while still pitching for another organization.
I believe that it's one full year. . .
after the draft date, not the date of signing.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jul 22, 2010 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions
nope, it's signed
it’s called the pete inccviglia rule.
by stickman179 on Jul 22, 2010 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
If that were the case, The Stros could simply ask the Cards to shut him down until the anniversary of his signing date.
That would only be 3 weeks from now. Name him as the “PTBNL” and agree that when he can be traded, the trade will be completed.
RFL for GG!
by stxcardsfan on Jul 22, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Cox and Wilson
Is it possible Mo is feeling good about signing those guys? That might make losing Miller palatable. (although not to us)
As good as it would be to have Oswalt...
… there’s just a lot not to like about this.
We’d have to give up somebody, probably more than one, who is young and good. Given the rough salary matrix in the main post above, provided Oswalt isn’t going to agree to defer all the money owed, I’d say we’d need as many young and good players as we can get.
This is easy to get excited about, but my head is having a hard time seeing this happen, unless DeWitt is on the verge of shooting the payroll way above where it is now and has been in recent seasons, which he may have to do anyway to re-sign Albert.
I don’t know, just having a hard time seeing this as something that is actually going to happen.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
well, if it has bacon
then that’s another story all together.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions
We can only speculate what the economic situation in the front office is.
If Mo is talking to the ‘stros, then he isn’t doing it because he is bored. I know many are having a hard time seeing this happen, but Mo has a history of making sound decisions, see: Matt Holiday. Much balking after the contract. Today? Contract vilified. Personally, I trust Mo’s decision and want to see him do whatever it is he does. But I can be assured of one thing: If Mo is talking about a 16 mm Oswalt, we are going to something big happen in the next week or so. It may not be Oswalt, but he’s going to do something. And the Reds are not going to be happy about it.
I just hope he's not making decisions solely to make the Reds unhappy...
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
well, they are assholes
did you hear what they said about your sister?
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions
joke's on them
I don’t have a sister
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
oooooo BURN!
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think you can say the Holliday contract is villified
JUST yet. I mean, it is a long commitment for a big amount of dollars. I don’t have much of a problem with the Lego contract, but it can still sour.
This.
Most everyone thought paying $17MM for Holliday now would work out, it’s the paying $17MM in years 4, 5 and 6 that we are worried about.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Another thought - trade for Bud Norris
And only play him at home. He pitches so well at Busch he’d go 30-0 for pennies
i don't think that means what you think it means
vilify is to “speak ill of”, malign, or denigrate…
by baked mcbride on Jul 22, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
if you're a sociopath, does that make being "vilified" a good thing? I'm confused.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 22, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wonderful.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Is it possible that the Cards
Could trade for Oswalt without giving up Miller given his contract? I would think the Cards have some leverage and that the Astros are looking to dump salary.
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
If you get Oz for prospects without trading Miller
I’d say pull the trigger. There’s nothing else in the minors that’s indispensable. But DO NOT trade a future for a past, even if the past still has some present to it.
StanTheManFan
Contributes any way he can.
He's normally a nuclear physicist
Except when writing for this list.
by StanTheManFan on Jul 22, 2010 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I really wonder what a proposal
Would look like for Oswalt without Miller?
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
One that doesn't get accepted, probably.
Which is OK by me. I’d like to have Oz on the team. I’m not so anxious for it as to make a dumb trade. But if HOUSTON is willing to make a dumb trade, well …
StanTheManFan
Contributes any way he can.
He's normally a nuclear physicist
Except when writing for this list.
by StanTheManFan on Jul 22, 2010 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Miller is
right now, more valuable to the Cards than Oswalt would be. Trading Miller for Oswalt would be a huge win for the Astros. It wouldn’t be close.
Agree
So do you think the Cards could trade for Oswalt w/o giving up Miller? How about K-Mac, Craig, and 2 mid-level prospects?
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
What if it were
Oswalt with the Astros eating 1/2 the remaining salary on the length of the current contract for Miller?
We don't need to trade Miller
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
There's no way that will happen.
Miller will have to be the center of any trade involving Haren or Oswalt.
We were all hoping/scheming of ways to get Holliday without Wallace too. Just isn’t possible.
I guess we disagree
With Oswalt’s contract, we definitely have the prospects that could get something done.
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
How about this offer chuckb?
Salas/Sanchez, Craig, and D Jones? Would that be enough?
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
A little deuce coupe?
"They punched me a lot," Holliday said of the celebration [after his July 18 walk-off single]. "But they were good punches."
We're interested in Brian Wilson now?
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
I suggested yesterday
Jay, Salas, Lynn (or Hawksworth, whichever they want). It gives the Astros three major league ready prospects. Jay and Salas have up gaudy MLB #s in small sample sizes. If the Astros are desperate to dump salary, this helps them. It would be a fleecing but I wonder who else is willing to take on salary and offer better prospects?
Yeah
No way we should trade or have to trade Miller
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I think it's possible.
I probably would not give up Miller for Oswalt, though I think some here fail to appreciate that MIller is still a very risky prospect and his value has to be lowered to account for that risk.
I also am not in favor of trading for Oswalt if the option has to be guaranteed.
But I think there is some way to make the dollars work, and the deal work, without giving up Miller.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 22, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Fourstick and Y2S
This is my ideal solution, you tell me if it is plausible/reasonable by your calculations.
Ludwick/Schumaker gone after this year.
Haren comes in, team loses whatever we give in that trade. With the savings of cheap cost controlled players at those two positions, how much are we investing in this? And what are your thoughts? I assume Miller would have to be involved.
Fourstick’s above comment about the Mulder trade would make my head explode if it were the same situation only in a trade FOR Haren.
Schumaker doesn't save us a lot of money.
I think he makes like $1.15MM next year, so that’s a savings of $700,000 over a league-minimum replacement (Descalso or Miles, presumably). Dropping Ludwick would save about $7MM net, I suspect (because you’d likely see something like a Jay/Craig platoon so long as neither was given up to get Haren). You need to factor in the raises to Wainwright, Lohse, Yadi, and Pujols. See Dan’s matrix above for those. But, 2011 isn’t the problem. 2012 is the problem. Pujols will get at least a $10MM raise.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
exactly. "bumping up payroll now" is like buying a house at a great introductory rate
then selling everything you own when the real rate kicks in. you might have the same job and the same family, but you’d be ten times more fucked.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I thought he made 2MM
And, maybe this is a silly idea as well, but haven’t they been budgeting for a Pujolsian raise for Albert? It’s not like this was completely unknown to the team.
You're right.
$2MM this year and $2.7MM next year. Here’s the Cot’s spreadsheet on our future payroll obligations. We already have $77MM in obligations at a minimum for 2011 (unlike Cot’s, I am just calculating in Pujols’s option as opposed to his buyout price).
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
As bgh points out, Schumaker doesn't really save us any money.
Ludwick would save about $8-$9M by replacing him with a Craig/Jay platoon, and I think that’s a viable solution…..the problem is that I’m guessing one of them would be included in the Haren deal along with Shelby Miller.
To make this scenario work, you basically have to do one of two things (to avoid a payroll explosion to $115M+):
- Find some sucker (Dayton Moore, c’mon down buddy! You like pies? What about toasted ravioli?) to take Kyle Lohse while only picking up 25% or less of his salary.
- Continue to find Felipe Lopez type’s that can play multiple positions with a league average bat for $1M-$2M a year.
Neither of those situations are likely.
FWIW, I hate, HATE, spending $60M on a pitching staff. It’s makes little sense considering the injury probabilities of major league pitchers. You can nearly always find a 3 WAR starter every year on the FA market for $7-$8M on short term contracts. Guys like Brett Myers are out there every year for dollars like that with no long term commitment, so it’s stupid to commit so much money just in pitching.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Great points
But, the one differing point I have, is I don’t like the odds of the Brett Myers’ of the world in a NLDS/NLCS/WS. I don’t like him against the best lineups in baseball. I like Haren in that spot. The regular season is a great place for the Myers type guys. That’s a great way to fill out a roster and stay afloat in a long season. I just think with Albert/Lego/Waino/Carp/Rasmus we aren’t playing for division titles, we are playing for WS titles. In the plural form.
My thought process has more to do with win now, and after Albert retires, rebuild. I just want to go all in with Albert and his crew. Maybe that is stupid.
So we should pay a #3 or #4 starter $16M per season
for 2-3 starts if we make the playoffs? Then what happens when that guy doesn’t have his good stuff that night, turns in a Chris Carpenter Game 1 2009 and we lose the series?
Seriously, dude, you CANNOT build a club around winning in the playoffs. You build the best club you can for the regular season and pray that they are all healthy and playing well when the playoffs roll around.
You can go all-in, but what you have to realize is that the Cubs went all-in, didn’t win a fucking thing, and NOW look at them. They’re looking forward to at least 4 years of below average baseball with a payroll above what the Cardinals are paying. I think this team could win the World Series as currently constructed. You know why? We just took 7 of 7 from two teams that made the NL playoffs last year and we have by far the best 1,2,3 punch in our rotation in the National League and perhaps in all of baseball right now.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I totally agree we could.
And I like the way our team is constructed, but a top of line pitching addition isn’t what they did. They went and bought a shitty fielding K-machine in left for a dickload of money. NOT the same thing. And thinking Garcia will maintain the same level of excellence is akin to the rose colored glasses of Oswalt staying healthy and justifying that money. I’m not saying make wholesale changes to the way we do everything. One pitcher could make a ton of difference. That is all.
We are a far cry from the situation the Cubs are in. That’s ridiculous to even insinuate that getting Haren is akin to the Soriano/Fukodome spending spree in Chicago.
The difference between Garcia sucking and Oswalt sucking
is that if Garcia starts sucking we’re out $400,000 and can go get another starter on the trade market at that time. If Oswalt starts sucking we’re out $16M dollars and have no room or prospects available to go get another starter.
It’s two completely different situations.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
That's true
I was merely stating that both rely on optimism. Not financial ramifications of said sucking.
Right
But you HAVE to be optimistic about Oswalt, because the downside is a .500 ballclub most likely.
You can afford to be pessimistic on Garcia because you can make a move to replace him as he’s not a drag on the payroll.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I, for one,
Refuse to be optimistic about Oswalt.
I agree with the idea of it, we just fundamentally disagree on playoffs/adding an ace. I agree we don’t NEED Haren, but it would be amazing to HAVE Haren. Because I believe he can change our “luck” in the postseason a great deal. Just like any ace can.
And who's gonna sweet talk Lohse
into waiving his NTC to go play for a juggernaut franchise like the Royals.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
So, Pujols it is.
“Mang, you really want to play for the Royals.”
“I really want to play for the Royals.”
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 22, 2010 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I think this is how
it will go down. Maybe he waves his bat in his face instead of the hand…. but more or less accurate.
Colby can't even do mind tricks??
how long has he been in the majors?
that kid will never communicate.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
This isn't the Orange Slice fountain you're looking for.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
If Dayton Moore can talk himself into Kyle Lohse
He can surely talk Kyle Lohse into helping his rebuilding effort, lol.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
And who's gonna sweet talk Lohse
into waiving his NTC to go SIT ON THE DL for a juggernaut franchise like the royals.
\fixed
Who would you (any of you) give up to get Oswalt?
It ain’t my money, so I really don’t care about that. I just assume that they wouldn’t prohibit themselves to re-sign Albert and wouldn’t shoot themselves in the foot financially.
But what about the talent?
Garcia, Jay, somebody else?
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
the talent is the thing that really scares me about this
THE HAREN!!!
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions
wouldn't the Astros ask?
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Overrated? Hardly.
But still not worth Garcia (or Miller). Pick any three non-Garcia, non-Miller, and non-outfielder prospects/rookies and I’m happy with the deal.
StanTheManFan
Contributes any way he can.
He's normally a nuclear physicist
Except when writing for this list.
by StanTheManFan on Jul 22, 2010 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I would totally do that
but would the Astros?
Maybe they’re anxious to clear his $$$ off the books? I think they would have to be for that package.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions
I thought it was Oswalt who asked then to explore trades
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions
better and cheaper?
that might be tough
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't know if he's better this year
next year maybe, and the year after that maybe
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions
His contract is certainly better than Oswalt's though
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
no doubt about that
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah of course Ricky F Nolasco as well
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
who would need to be offered for Nolasco?
have you read anything about that? I haven’t.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions
i honestly don't think much
here’s one of the few deals i could see the cards not having to give miller away.
If that's the case, isn't this the better deal?
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
i'm just not as high on a deal for nolasco
looking at his career numbers, and those over this season, i would see nolasco as another hawksworth (maybe not quite as bad).
I'm not sure about that
but I don’t know what he’d do for us this year.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
which brings me back to my earlier question
who’s both “better and cheaper” than Oswalt?
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm talking in terms of payroll which should be the bigger concern
Oswalt for nothing is still a pretty crappy deal imo because his huge contract.
I can't deny that
but I read that he would be willing to restructure.
I guess the details of that would really make a difference, but that may make him much more do-able
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions
restructure the 2012 year, which still wouldn't make much of a difference unless he wants to be paid
1M for the next 17 years.
they could do one of those deals where
he gets paid deferred dollars starting in 2021 or something like that.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
I believe Holliday has something similar
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
And younger.
Oswalt is in his age 32/33 season and will make $16MM in each of his age 33/34 and 34/35 seasons.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Carp's thrown about 3 seasons worth fewer innings than Oswalt
I don’t put a lot of stock in that, but I do put some stock in it.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Well, yeah. . .
because he’s been injury-prone, not because he was off serving his country as a tail-gunner in WWII or anything.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jul 22, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes,
so let’s double down on that working out for us? No thank you. I don’t want to be paying two mid-30’s pitchers over $15MM. We simply cannot absord one or both getting injured.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
for a pennant contender or for a rebuilder?
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
You know, Loria is pretty much a bafoon
I think it’s high time Mo took advantage of someone.
We haven’t done that for a while it seems.
Lot and pillage baby!
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions
loot
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions
In which case
don’t make the Miller trade. Q.E.Duh.
StanTheManFan
Contributes any way he can.
He's normally a nuclear physicist
Except when writing for this list.
by StanTheManFan on Jul 22, 2010 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I think that's too much. . .
unless the Birds are getting salary relief back.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jul 22, 2010 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Considering that we're taking on his salary and picking up his option year....
I’d rather not give up Miller. The Astros can select 3 other minor leaguers in our farm system and Allen Craig.
I would offer them Craig, Boggs, Salas, and Kozma (who they might think has some value still for reason’s unknown) I don’t think that’s near enough, but then again, I don’t like this deal anyway. Just deal a minor league pitcher for Jake Westbrook and be done with it.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I'm all for this. I really think it's possible to get Oswalt without giving up Miller.
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
that would be awesome.
also, we have to save everyone in the Mississippi Valley from having to move away rather than play for their favorite team.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
not sure about the option year
Mike and Mike made it sound like there is wiggle room on the option year this morning. However, they spent most of their time talking about Oswalt’s father working in the logging industry.
Tim Kurkjian!
I wonder if Oswalt’s dad is one of ’em swamp loggers. now I wanna look that up.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
hmm.
Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of 140,000 and employs a staff of approximately 3.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
We need to Jocketty them.
Get them to trade Oswalt for the equivalent of Bud Smith, Placido Polanco, and Mike Timlin. Remember, Ed Wade was that GM. He is likely still that uninformed and we know his owner is. Perhaps we could trade them Hawksworth, Craig and McClellan.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Another reason for my hope
Ed Wade is a moran
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
i can't see us giving up that package for oswalt
unless the stros pick up some salary – not as much as shelby would require picking up, but something.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
If Oswalt was available as a 2nd half rental only
I’d be tottally down with a trade (obviously NOT one that includes Miller), in this situation it would only take a couple of half-prospects. Unfortuntaley this is not the reality and the idea of having an aged Oswalt and Carpenter as our 2-3 guys in the rotation in 2012 is terrifying, the Cards could become the ’Stros real fast.
Now for a guy like Haren or Nolasco much more worth it, Oswalt can only get worse in the next few seasons these guys could easily improve, especially with the Duncanator.
BUT all this is assuming that the Cards NEED to make a deal in the first place, and i think that maybe we don’t surely there is enough talent on this team especailly with the imminent returns of Senors Ludwick and Lohse and the eventual return of Penny to win the division even if only by a small handful of games?
I believe TLR said otherwise recently
something like… even though we’ve won some games and/or Lud is coming back, our priorities haven’t changed.
something like that
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Lohse
RT @tmckernan: Lohse: I’m heading out Sunday night to Memphis and pitching there on Monday.
RT @tmckernan: Lohse: The people who thought I was going to be out for the rest of the season never came and talked to me to ask how I was feeling.
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
I think Lohse needs to get an starter course on Mulder and Carpenter
no one asked because of the trauma, is my guess.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
One thing for sure:
This should quiet the people who thought that Lohse was dogging it now that he’s got the big contract. Pitchers who are dogging it don’t do what he’s doing. Full credit for his integrity, if not necessarily his skills.
StanTheManFan
Contributes any way he can.
He's normally a nuclear physicist
Except when writing for this list.
by StanTheManFan on Jul 22, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Who said that on this site ever?
I can’t recall anyone questioning his effort. We just questioned his ability to pitch on a level that makes him worth his salary.
Nonetheless, I’m glad that his recovery is going well to date. We could use him in St. Louis.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
i don't know about dogging it
but it was suggested he was faking injury as an excuse for his performance.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Winning Now
Isn’t there something to be said for winning when you can? Spoiled by this team’s success, I’m ready to roll in some flags while we do have some of these players under contract. I’d rather risk big now and win, then be TOO smart and bounce out after the first round…
by mattysha on Jul 22, 2010 9:50 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This
I think this could be the best way of articulating what I was trying to say earlier.
I think we have a rare window right NOW to do some damage in the postseason. We have 2 legit aces, two great hitters and a stud CF under market value. Adding Haren could put us three deep with stud pitchers, with Garcia/Penny if he is healthy. Maybe this is too much fan thought for others.
the problem with that is this team has spent half a season under-performing.
notice that half of the run-producing starters are out and we’re bashing everyone’s heads in. notice that the Phillies lost one or two key guys at a time and fell apart. we have not yet seen what this team is actually capable of.
so the risk is very real that we sell off what we need for later (aka Albert and Adam Fund) to get what we didn’t need in the first place.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Really great point.
But, to use your analogy from earlier, if we can buy low on Haren and increase our odds on the 12 sider to a 6 sider or 4 sider, is it worth it? To me, it is.
points for extreme geekery
sure, if we can buy low on Haren.
that is why I am a great advocate of Fredbird’s van.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
I just want it to be clear
I am in the camp that if we can get Haren, we need to do it. If it doesn’t involve giving up Garcia, I think it’s great.
If we are going to be mortgaging future considerations, such as the Adam/Mang funds, for Oswalt, I’m diametrically opposed to it.
If Haren isn’t an option, then I agree, we should focus on position players and look to upgrade the everyday players.
unless i'm mistaken
which is possible
that’s what the roster matrix yonder is suggesting in the first place. future considerations are almost certainly going to be in play.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Ya, and as earlier stated
I want no part of the Oswalt deal. If it were for second tier prospects and they paid a majority of his salary, definitely. But that isn’t a plausible scenario. Which is why I argue we stay away from Roy, and go more towards Dan. Less likely to fall off a cliff, as well.
There is so much luck at play in the playoffs that I reject this premise.
Right now, we probably have the best top 3 starting pitchers of any potential playoff team. Many playoff clubs carry a no. 4 starter but then only use him in long relief. If Lohse comes back and is healthy, he can be that no. 4 starter and I won’t care. So much of the playoffs is luck. Who would have ever thought that we would be down 0-2 in the NLDS after the Carp and Wainwright starts? I don’t think we need Danny Haren or Roy Oswalt to win now. I think a shortstop would help us much more.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
That very well could be.
That a position player is the more pressing need. I just think if a stud pitcher like Haren becomes available, and we have a fair chance at getting him, it’s a great idea. How available are upgrades to the everyday players? That’s not a loaded question, I really don’t know.
Avenge the Boog!?!
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
AVENGE!
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Along with the trade deadline looming with us being discussed for a top SP
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
it's all about the trade deadline
actually, I beat it over here when I read the Oswalt thing on the P/D
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions
needs moar gif.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
violates the midnight directive, but I kind of like it.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Heheheh
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
man, i love the lifeguard dog
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
That warms the heart.
And I’m 100% serious.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
it's my all-time favorite now - all-time!!
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
that looks so photoshopped.
kittens don’t smoke!
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
It's not midnight....
and there’s a day game!!!!! Damn you Cody. Think of the GOB!
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
...kittens anger the GOB?
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
it's a double jinx to reverse what god forsaken lineup tony puts out tonight
we all know he tried his best with a soup+ pujol-less lineup sunday.
come on guys... Waino wants his Pappys!
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
THATS RIGHT!
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
absolutely never gets old
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
i didn't realize we're on a cat theme
but this is funny every time.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 22, 2010 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
True that Yadi-
But, you’re assuming we didn’t need it in the first place.. That’s an assumption. I’d rather have the insurance of deeper talent now and risk future payroll issues. All these guys we are worried about resigning in the future – let’s not forget we have them NOW. Le’ts win some flags.
BTW, Yadi – huge fan of your commentary on this site (did that come across creepy?)
the reply button is good.
and that “assumption” has a lot more statistical and anecdotal backup than your assumption that this team is built to choke.
as long as you’re not in the basement, that’s not creepy at all. also, I’m a hack and a terrible role model.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
The flattery is coming from inside the house!
I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons
by hazel on Jul 22, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'd like to wish everyone a Happy Chris Duncan day.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Roy Oswalt has been one of my favorite non-Cardinal players for some time,
and he’s an above average starter who could be a big fat nail in the coffin of the Reds playoff hopes.
But $16M for three years is simply more than he is worth.
Oswalt’s remaining contract guarantees him 23.5M along with 16M for his 2012 option. Assuming decline and a small probability of injuries, over the remainder of his contract, optimistically speaking, Oswalt is projectable for 2.0, 4.0, and 3.5 WAR. His WAR total simply doesn’t justify that kind of salary, and it definitely doesn’t justify us giving up one let alone many valuable prospects, and that’s not even broaching the topic of Shelby Miller, who absolutely should not enter the Roy Oswalt conversation.
I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons
by hazel on Jul 22, 2010 10:00 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Ironically, it could turn out to be the money that keeps Miller out of this
OTOH, I don’t think the Astros are willing to accept a “salary dump prospect package” for Oswalt.
I said quite a bit higher up… I have a hard time seeing this deal wok for the Cards.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
My thoughts exactly
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Hopefully Mo is a clear-headed as you.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Then disregard my comment from above.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Kurkjian says "three prospects at *least* for Roy Oswalt"
omgwtfbbq
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
miller, anderson, robinson/mather
(my trade proposal)
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 22, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
They won't want Anderson
They have Jason Castro, who’s one of the top 30 prospects in baseball and probably the 3rd best catching prospect to start the year behind Santana, who’s already up, and the kid from the Yankees.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Actually
I think Castro was ahead of Posey prior to this season. Scouts were down on Posey for some reason.
I do like Castro though — I think he’s going to be a very good player.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Didn't say what quality.
PJ Walters, Evan Maclane, and Aaron Miles (who we tell them is Nick Stavinoha).
I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons
you forgot winn
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
i'd say winn, stav and miles
make the perfect trifecta. miles has grit, stav hits homers on one knee, and winn switch-hits.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 22, 2010 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah, I pick up weird phrases.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Here's what has me worried lately
It’s not Haren or Oswalt, specifically. If you’re going after Haren, you’re gonna go after Oswalt as well at least as a way to bargain around prying Haren loose.
2 thoughts that keep crossing my mind are…
1. The Cards have been keeping pay roll down for several years in anticipation of signing Pujols and perhaps spending more money on payroll.
2. Given Holliday, and maybe Haren/Oswalt, perhaps the Cards are blowing their wad in anticipation of NOT signing Pujols.
If Albert isn't staying
you would be saving MORE money, imo, because you’re going to have to sign his replacement (Adrian Gonzalez, welcome to St. Louis!) plus another position player to make up for losing him. You rebuild around Holliday, Gonzalez, Rasmus, and WW.
In all reality, if we’re able to sign Cox AND Wilson and rebuild our farm system, in terms of being competitive, losing Albert wouldn’t be a huge deal, providing he doesn’t sign somewhere else in the National League and beat the fucking snot out of us for the next 8 years.
I can’t believe I just said that. I will now go light myself on fire.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
you can use these towels.
but it’s true. that’s why it’s not a Lebrontuation.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
stay the fuck away from chicago albert/tlr
by CodyG on Jul 22, 2010 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i think we can win
with a Core of Wainwright, Holliday, and Rasmus. Throw on Gonzalez and we are good.
I’d much much rather win with Albert in the mix.
albert will keep fans in the seats
i can’t imagine the PR nightmare that would happen if we let him walk. they have to pay him a lot, but his presence certain brings in the $$$
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
They'll come back to watch the world series though
Winning cures all. If Albert leaves and we start losing though…
Ewing theory
"The outfield is deep and playing him straight-away, and the infield is the same, except first, second, third, and short are playing him to pull."
-Mike Shannon
I think a trade for Oswalt signals that we are attacking
the 2010-2011 Pujols window with reckless abandon, and I can’t say that I would blame them. To me, it indicates that a Pujols extension is anything but a done deal.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
What if Oswalt were to accept the 2mil 2012 buyout
would that change people’s opinion?
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
Yes
But that also means we’d give up more talent.
And if that was the case, he’d be in Philly already.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
MLBTR has it
that Oswalt MAY not require the 2012 option if StL is the destination
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think this is good either way really
If he’s not taking the option year, we’re going to have to give up more and we get him for far less money.
If only we didn’t have that fucking Lohse contract on our books I would have much fewer problems with this.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
He's going to make a rehab start tonight according to his twitter feed.
I don’t think the FO has a lot of faith in him at this point. If Mo could get in the DeLorean and go back to the fall of 2008, I think he sneaks into 2008 Mo’s office and burns that contract in the middle of the night.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
It was the pitching staff....
Carp and Waino for sure, I’d expect the padawan was there as well as Soup and Hawk. They said his stuff looked like it did when he was healthy.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I never buy that talk
“well, he looked ok, I guess. Frankly, I think he needs to keep at it for another month.”
Athlete-speak… not even a cup of coffee for it.
When’s back and getting out at a normal clip… then ok
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Threw to Miles, and....
oh, crap, now I forget. But, he threw about 40 pitches to 3 hitters yesterday. He’s scheduled for a bullpen Saturday, then a re-hab start Monday, that is, according to the article in the P-D this morning.
by ArkansasTravs on Jul 22, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting
RT @tmckernan Skip Schumaker got his name “Skip” b/c there were four other guys named Jared (his real name) on his t-ball team…and he couldn’t skip.
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
and then the self-flagellation begins
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
His name dates back to tee ball? Wow.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Do It!
I love me some Carp, but Oswalt is one of may favorite pitchers mechanically and is much better than Carp mechanically. IMO, Oswalt’s got another 10 years in him but Carp doesn’t.1
I’m not convinced we can depend on Carp. With his history, I’d prefer we just kept signing him to 2 year deals (or even year to year as long as he’s healthy).
With respect to Pujols, I’m really concerned with buying high and paying him $30 million per on the back side of his career.
1 However, of all the pitchers out there Carp may be the most likely to be able to pull a Jamie Moyer and succeed while throwing in the low to mid 80s.
i don't think pujols will ask for $30M/year
i think the max pujols would ask for is $20-25M a year.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 22, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I agree
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure
He’s got an ego and I think he will want to set a record with his deal as a sign of respect. That may put the first year or two at 30 (some of which may be deferred or something like that), just so that he can say that he is the highest-paid player in MLB. However, I would hope that the numbers would go down from there.
If thats the case DeWitt and Co better be committed to a $120+ M payroll
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
He does want to win...
…and probably wants to stay in STL (or Deidre does) so he will probably work with the team.
I think if we're speculating on his ego
my guess he’d get more ego-bation from being the best player and still making less than A-Rod so he can have moral high ground.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
I think you're wrong
If he gets less than $25M I will be surprised. I mean, I’ll throw a fucking party and donate to his charity, but I’ll be surprised.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Ryan Howard
is going to make $25 million per year. Pujols will make more than that and will likely approach, if not surpass, ARod’s $27.5 Million.
Oh, I agree
But just in case he signs for $20M per season, the champagne and strippers are on me….lol
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
no takebacks
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
sorry, but no effing way does pujols take less money than ryan howard. aint gonna happen.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
Um, Roy Oswalt turns 33 years old in a month.
There is absolutely no way—ahem, naturally—that he has ten years left in him. He would be in his 40s for the last third of that.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
While I agree on the mechanics,
they can only take you so far. Oswalt has already had oblique problems and by the end of his contract he will be closer to playing age 40 with his body type.
I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons
He very well could
This is only his 10th season, and HOF pitchers tend to pitch 18-20 seasons. It’s possible that he could pitch into his 40’s, the question would be how good he’d be at that point.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Carp is smart enough to make it work
I don’t know about Oswalt, but I’d have to guess he could do it (especially if Dunc stuck around).
Oswalt’s that good.
OT: who gets optioned Friday when Luddy returns?
As much as it pains me to type this, I say Craig. I hope Stav get’s banished to the 60 DL.
"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning
I'm praying for Miles
That won’t happen though
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
He's hitting .356.
And OPS’ng almost .800. He’s one of the best players on the team. Why would he get DFA’d?
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
or high five him?
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
Slumber party
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 22, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Reports say that it could have been Suppan, Miles or Stavinoha
she cannot identify or distinguish between the 3. All 3 must go.
'Don't kiss an ass if its in the process of shitting on you.' - Best advice ever.
Remember it's all Miles' fault
He’s been MILES (ha) better than I thought he would do. Prolly Craig then unless Greene isn’t healthy.
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Can't wait for his regression
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm rooting for the guy, but he will regress eventually
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Chuck......
that was firmly tongue in cheek. I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, a fan of Aaron F. Miles being on this team.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
probably craig... maybe even jay
i could only hope for a miles DFA.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 22, 2010 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
jay has earned an extended look.
if anything, the cards are trading him while his value is the highest it will ever be.
With Razza's nagging injuries,
they have to keep Jay around. But, then again, I don’t believe Randy Winn should allowed into the right-center field gap, let alone center field itself.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
you want Miles as Boog's backup?????????
remember the 3-error inning vs. SFG?
"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning
Lopez would shift to SS.
Miles would start at third. (In your heart, you know this.) Yet, Allen Craig is not an acceptable third baseman defensively.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Yet, Allen Craig is not an acceptable third baseman defensively.
/cries into laptop
"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning
It will be Craig...
b/c of the options. Acutally, because he was optioned already (April 2010), it means we can send him back and forth on the shuttle all we want this season, without costing us to use any more of his options. If I understand the option rule correctly.
Hmm
Didn’t realize that
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
LeBron / Albert
I think anyone comparing the two is misguided. I don’t think Albert is anywhere near that senseless.
no, but a beast on the glass
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
AJ was coaching Shaq, even.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
The question, I guess
does albert prefer winning, as he’s always said, to getting that big contract?
If he does, then he agrees to this deal, and agrees either to defer money on his FA contract, or he agrees to less. The whole problem, for a while, has been that its prohibitively expensive and scary to build a team around him with his contract situation up in the air.
DeWitt and Mo need to sit down with him and say ‘this is what we’re trying to do, are you going to help us win?’
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
i would imagine they already have.
"The outfield is deep and playing him straight-away, and the infield is the same, except first, second, third, and short are playing him to pull."
-Mike Shannon
sigh
Google has spoken
NEXT TOPIC PLEASE!!!
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
actually
it’s ‘roy oswalt tigers’ for me. is it a regional thing?
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 22, 2010 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm in China. It said
“Roy Oswalt 5 Year Plan Set to Expire”
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
That's hilarious.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I get Roy Oswalt ejection video
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
Google has tweaked their auto-completion to add local flair
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 22, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
I got 'Roy Oswalt Cardinals' as well....hmmm...
'Don't kiss an ass if its in the process of shitting on you.' - Best advice ever.
Mine, too.
And the only club mentioned is the Mets, at no. 9 in the list.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
good news for oswalt?
per mlbtr:
….Meanwhile, MLB.com reports that Oswalt would love to pitch in St. Louis and might not even require that his option be picked up if the Astros work out a deal with the division rival Cards.
When you are guaranteed $16MM by contract in 2011,
it’s easy to make such assertions.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I heard he gave Chase Utley's wife a foot massage
Then Marcellus Wallace threw him out a three story window,
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 22, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This would explain the haircut.
He’s covering up that giant dent in his skull….
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I just saw Oswalt at the airport.
Repeal The LaRussa Tax.
by Michael_68_1999 on Jul 22, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
beat me to it.
"I told myself from the very beginning: 'If he's going to throw a shutout, then he's going to tie,'" Wainwright said. "He was not going to beat me today."
On the way to Johnny Mac's
…to get my custom Oswalt jersey made up.
What number do you think he’s going to wear?
OT: possibilities of Oswalt and Fielder and Hart and Lilly leaving the NL central.
Does this make andyone else other than me extremely excited for our future as a club?
if oswalt finds his way to stl, and the other three leave
i will be pumped. seriously.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 22, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
SLOOOOOOOOOOOOW DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWN VEB
jesus, gonna hit 500 comments before 10 AM. I have to do some actual work today too, ya know.
interwebs blowing up on silly f'ing Oswald
that’s an obscure one… let’s see if someone gets it (the last three words that is)
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Um...
Oswalt said he would drop his demand that his 2012 option be picked up if it meant he could pitch for St. Louis. So everyone needs to stop saying we’d be paying him 16 million for 3 years. It’d be more like 8 million this year and 16 next year.
by lopey986 on Jul 22, 2010 10:51 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
right
and I think getting him to defer that cash for next year would be easy if he wants to come.
I’m not saying it’s necessarily a good deal now, but it does need to be rethought I think.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh and Shelby Miller does not equal Danny Haren. Haren had pitched in the majors, Shelby Miller is pitching in low class A and not really pushing for a promotion.
Sure, Miller could turn into Haren but he could also turn into Anthony Reyes/Rick Ankiel.
by lopey986 on Jul 22, 2010 10:53 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Rick Ankiel before or after the playoffs?
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
Oh for Pete's sake
I’m not glorifying this with a debate. Just go look at their minor league profiles and where they ranked on BA’s top prospects and you’ll see that Miller probably has more value right now than Haren ever did in a Cardinal uniform.
Roy Oswalt could turn into Mark Mulder as well.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
by fourstick on Jul 22, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe he does have "more value"
But what about that automatically translates into him being a good MLB pitcher?
by lopey986 on Jul 22, 2010 11:07 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
What guarantees
can you provide that Oswalt will be worth 2 wins the rest of this year and then 8-9 over the next 2 years?
I can't guarantee anything...
None of us can. Oswalt would certainly help the big club more this year and next than Shelby miller is, which is when the Cardinals are built to win (before pujols leaves).
by lopey986 on Jul 22, 2010 11:22 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
What does that have to do with anything right now?
If we’re guaranteeing things, I’d like you guarantee that Roy Oswalt’s back holds up for three more seasons.
Do we really need to keep playing this game?
It’s a risky move, made riskier by the implications to payroll, while giving up our only minor leaguer that might be able to provide some salary relief while being a 3 WAR pitcher for our club.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I agree
It would be a risky move, but this club is built to win this year and next and oswalt would be able to contribute to that.
To be clear, I’d rather not trade Miller and I in no way want that option picked up (although if carpenter is done at that time they may want oswalt for another year). I think oswalts desire to win and escape from Houston will get him to drop his demand that his option be picked up and I think Houston will be happy to dump his salary and won’t demand a guy like Miller.
by lopey986 on Jul 22, 2010 11:28 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Except. . .
Haren was three years farteher along than Miller without getting injured. For young pitching prospects, that is a big farking deal. It’s one of the biggest reasons for the whole TINSTAAP theory.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jul 22, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
No he didn't
Richard Justice of the Houston Chronicle said that maybe he’d be willing to do that. More likely is that he will allow some of the $16 million to be deferred. His no trade clause has value and he’d be stupid not to utilize it.
He is utilizing it already
By forcing the Astros to trade him to a team he wants to play for. I’d imagine he would be willing to make less money to play for a team that isn’t horrendous and looking to remain horrendous for at least 5 more years if not more.
by lopey986 on Jul 22, 2010 11:10 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He's utilizing it with the Astros *and* with potential suitors.
And that is wise. If you are Roy Oswalt and you can work it so you are traded for a contender and get paid $16MM for 2012 by that contender, why wouldn’t you?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
He's not going to...
He’s not getting that option picked up, not by the Astros and not by anyone else. He’s gonna be stuck in Houston for another year and a half if he holds onto that demand and i feel like his desire to win will eventually get him to renege on the option demand.
by lopey986 on Jul 22, 2010 11:24 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
beat me to it
he could be stuck in houston without the option picked up, or hand-pick the cards and play in the playoffs without the option being picked up.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Fourstick
What moves would you like to see made? I saw you mentioned Uggla earlier, Drew in Arizona? What else do you think is plausible and ideal?
S Drew!
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
BRENDAN FUCKING RYAN DOES NOT APPROVE OF ALL THIS TRADE FOR A SHORTSTOP TALK
no…that doesn’t work the same
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
Brendan is a long way from that
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
This would be more like...
BRENDAN FUCKING RYAN DOES NOT APP…hey look, a puppy!
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
If you can pry Uggla loose for a couple of minor leaguers like Lynn and Salas
I think that would be a good move — I just think he’s going to cost more than that.
I also think that trading a minor league pitcher(s) for Jake Westbrook is the best pitching upgrade we could make considering the dollars and talent given up.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
What would Drew cost?
And what about Uggla signing long term? Is that an option? I have no idea on these things.
No idea on Drew
I’m not even sure he’s available. If I was Arizona I wouldn’t be trading him right now, for sure, but I’m not a cheap bastard like their owner is either.
I wouldn’t be dealing for Uggla long term — just for this year and the arb year in 2011. Then offer him arb and let him walk for two draft picks.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
If I'm not mistaken,
in 2010, it has been on par with Ryan’s, according to metrics (which you should take with an enormous grain of salt). He has a good defensive reputation, as well.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I am a thrifty shopper
If you look around, the most important thing you can have as a major league franchise in this day and age is payroll flexibility. Which means as few long term contracts as possible, unless those long term contracts are likely to be far below fair market value (like Molina and Wainwright, or Evan Longoria and Ben Zobrist).
Payroll flexibility allows you pounce on Alexis Rios when the Blue Jays let him go for FREE. It lets you go after salary dump rentals.
This is where Bill DeWitt and I disagree on things. He’d rather trade for a guy that’s going to be here for a long term amount of time to “get his money’s worth”. I’d rather take that guy for 2 months, pay less for him, offer him arbitration and stockpile draft picks when he leaves, then replace him with a prospect from the farm system or sign a similar player on the FA market. I think you’re better off doing this in the long run than having 6 and 7 year contracts at market value. You should only do that for players like Holliday or Pujols, and you should really NEVER do it for a pitcher, as they are rarely ever worth it.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I think, long term, that is a GREAT strategy.
The place where I differ from you is, if we have a HISTORICALLY great player, I think we mortgage some of the after years to make the most of these years. I know this may sound stupid or short sighted, but I don’t want to be like the Braves. I don’t want to waste Albert on one ring, I want to get 3 or 4. But I agree with your sentiment a great deal. If we had done this for years and now were in the situation of Pujols being the crown jewel in a stellar line up – great. But that’s not our current situation.
The Braves are a perfect example of the playoffs being a total crapshoot
They won, what, 14 straight division titles? Had the best top four starters in baseball for a decade? Always had above average offensive teams? Won one World Series.
That’s one of the best runs by an organization in the history of the modern era in terms of regular season success. But winning in the playoffs is a total crapshoot — you can dominate the regular season and still not win the World Series.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Maybe it was before my time, but
What were their bats like? David Justice and Chipper Jones? The Crime Dog for a bit?
I think if we have Waino/Carp/Haren/Garcia with Pujols/Holliday/Rasmus, we could turn that on it’s ear. That’s all I’m saying. I agree your premise grants more sustainable results, but I like the ceiling vs. the crap shoot. Just me.
also throw in Ryan Klesko
Andruw Jones had some real nice years
Probably forgetting some others
Waly Weiss?
point is, good offense
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
They were solid
Javy Lopez coming up was big, Klesko put up good numbers early. They had the Crimedog, Jermaine Dye in there for some time… they were good.
forgot about Lopez and Dye
that little fuck second baseman had a way of getting huge in the playoffs as well.
This just depresses me- ’96 NLCS… big bummer
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
good I hated Lemke
did you know he did a turn in the indy’s trying to make it as knuckleballer?
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
only lasted a year or two
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Terry Pendleton early on.
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
Justice, Gant, Pendleton, Otis Nixon, and Jeff Blauser
in the first couple years.
Then they had Jones, Jones, McGriff, Lopez, Klesko in the late 90’s.
They were never the BEST offense, but they were always above average offensively in those years.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Sid "dynamite stache" Bream
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Sid Bream speed > Barry Bonds arm strength
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
classic play
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
my dad was a pirates fan
we were living in New Mexico at the time. Only thing we got was TBS. From then all they always ended the promo at the being of the games with “Braves win! Braves win!”
I hate Sid Bream.
that had really shitty announcers
put me to f’ing sleep regluarly
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Skip? Don Sutton?
"They punched me a lot," Holliday said of the celebration [after his July 18 walk-off single]. "But they were good punches."
Jordan ended up there towards the
end of their run as well, IIRC.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Deion Sanders!
mentioning Jordan brought it back
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
point is
they were much better than your average good team
championship tally is one huge upset for that squad
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
could be worse
could be Dallas
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Or Cleveland heh
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Don't know if it is your thing
but Houston, believe it or not, has a really nice performing arts scene and some nice museums.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
We're out of pies!
Might be some gooey butter cake left over though.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Everyone get on baking them cakes!
VEB: Where stars play for tasty treats instead of money.
'Don't kiss an ass if its in the process of shitting on you.' - Best advice ever.
No, he needs to watch out for us as he trips around second base.
'Don't kiss an ass if its in the process of shitting on you.' - Best advice ever.
fixed
No, he needs to watch out for us cake as he trips around second base.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 22, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
We baked that cake and put it there....
/shhhhhhhh
'Don't kiss an ass if its in the process of shitting on you.' - Best advice ever.
you think he'll notice?
cuz i’d bet prince fielder would see the tofu on 3rd right away.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 22, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I wish we hadn't guaranteed Skip a contract...
What reason did Mo have for doing that?
Fire La Russa!
Skip was arbitration eligible,
and he justifiably anticipated another year of league-average offense at second base and thought that he could buy out that second arbitration year at a salary below what they would be negotiating over after this season. I also think he has less faith in Descalso than many in the VEB community. The Skip extension was not a bad move at the time.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Hannah Storm says last night's game was at Philly.
shot of St. Louis flags in the rain.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
If Mo said he was interested after talking for a week or whatever,
then a deal is already done. I am just waiting for the announcement.
I really don't know about that
I’ve deals ANNOUNCED and still fall apart
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
To everyone saying stephen drew, I ask that you see his home/away splits before judging him as an upgrade.
.299 wOBA away
.355 wOBA home(career)
So Lohse is progressing nicely... anyone else worried?
As for potential increases in payroll, I think DeWitt sees a unique opportunity for a small dynasty over the next 3 years, and I think he’d be willing to pitch in the extra $20 mil/per to see that opportunity arise. With the team they have now, and the cheap serviceable pieces they have now in the low minors and from this year’s draft, I think DeWitt is willing to give up Shelby, spend the money for a Haren/Oswalt, and ride this team that we have for the next 3 or so years. At the end of the ride, we’ll lose a few good pieces probably, but the ride may be worth it if we produce 1 or more WS victories/appearances. Also, if signed, the wilson’s and cox’s of this year’s draft may be ready to fill the void left over.
A team with a tootsie-center of Pujols, Holliday, Rasmus, Molina, Waino, Carp, Garcia, and Haren/Oswalt over the next 2-3 years looks pretty damn strong, and I think DeWitt is willing to pay for it and take the risk that it produces a championship.
RFL for GG!
It's official :)
RT @m_sheldon : #reds agree to terms with Isringhausen. He will report to AAA Louisville.
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
I really need to reassess this whole Jocketty is creative thing
most of the shit he’s done with the Reds… hasn’t he done it before?
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Hmmmm
- Trade for Rolen — Check
- Sign old lefty reliever (Kline, Rhodes) — Check
- Sign Miguel Cairo — Check.
- Sign Jason Isringhausen — Check.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
YOU *ARE* EVIL.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Bring in Aaron Miles.
The new twist was DFA’ing Aaron Miles.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Springer too.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 22, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
setting up a Jungian struggle with our doppelganger.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Apparently the Reds are looking for more ways to blow 6 run leads in the 9th inning
'Don't kiss an ass if its in the process of shitting on you.' - Best advice ever.
They already had Nick Masset
Seems like they don’t need any more help with that this season.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
if he wanted to do that
he’d just acquire pieces from our current pen instead
lowblowtopen/
RFL for GG!
by stxcardsfan on Jul 22, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
jocketty and former cards...
well, we’ll look forward to hitting dingers off izzy before long.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 22, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Good Lord
everyone is worked up into a frenzy this morning. I’d suggest decaf coffee but that’s an abomination against coffee drinkers everywhere.
Maybe you should all lay off the meth.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
by azruavatar on Jul 22, 2010 11:19 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
ANARCHY!
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I thought we were on E?
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
What can you say about baseball in July and Meth besides...
the STOVE is HOT
'Don't kiss an ass if its in the process of shitting on you.' - Best advice ever.
Wait..you have meth?
Kidding aside, my fingers hurt from typing this much and I’m on my 3rd Red Bull this morning.
Also, little work is getting done. Very. Little.
My boss is gone today, and he’s a cards fan, so I think he’s appreciate the dedication.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I've been stockpiling Sudafed for a long time
but I think the now is the right opportunity to open up shop.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
If we trade Miller for Oswalt and pick up his option
You might want to stockpile some downers for VEP, ChuckB, and myself, as we are liable to go apeshit.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Going to donate some under-the-table proceeds to help pay the Cards' revenue?
You’ll have a show made out of your life called “Breaking Bot”
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
my thoughts on roy/jaime
My entire problem with these discussions about increasing payroll, reducing flexibility aka the Cubs strategy, adding a declining ace or whatever is that it represents a scattershot, contradictory and misguided organizational philosophy.
The way we keep albert and meet his desire for a competitive team is that we produce more jaimes and don’t get suckered into deals for oswalt. I’m not comparing their talent or production, but if we trade for oswalt, we will(and this is a near guarantee) bitch about his contract like we do for lohse’s. Let’s presume Roy continues to decline, what’s his value? Limiting flexibilty, selling off a bonafide ace prospect, and increased injury risks? Sounds like a recipe for success!
Simply put, cost controlled pitchers like miller and lynn: good. Continuing to spend way too much in money and talent which compromises a successful future: bad.
"...and pujols has given st louis the lead"
The Best Defensive Play I Have Seen in Person
follow me on teh twitterz @greenfieldt
by tgreenfield on Jul 22, 2010 11:22 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
ahhhgree
If we are going to re-sign Albert post Holliday and the rest of the list then we are going to need all the good young guys we can find.
Again, I have a hard time seeing how this possible Oswalt deal works out for the Cards…
… unless they can totally Roger the Astros, then hey, have at it Mo
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the fact that Oswalt appears to want to come to St. Louis so badly,
that he is willing to defer money and waive his demand for the Cards to activate his 2012 option upon completion of the trade, increases our appetite for the trade. I think if you bring in an Oswalt now with the nucleus we have for the next few years, Pujols will be happy and stay and win. Also, with some of the guys from this year’s draft and in our low minors, we still have an opportunity to build a solid team around Pujols and Holliday during the post-oswalt/carp/molina era.
RFL for GG!
by stxcardsfan on Jul 22, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
There may be a possibility that he doesn't resign after his current contract
it is a possibility
RFL for GG!
by stxcardsfan on Jul 22, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
well that's fine, you can add them too
I just didn’t want to write out all the names. Plus, Waino’s contract, after picking up the options, will have him here longer than molina’s current contract I believe and Rasmus will be in his arbitration years. So we either pay him, or trade him for additional talent to help the re-building process.
RFL for GG!
by stxcardsfan on Jul 22, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
I think it all depends on outcomes
Basically, you can set yourself up to contend, but oftentimes it takes a little something extra to put you over the top and actually win. If the Cards trade for Oswalt, even if they give up Miller, and win the World Series this year, then hey, great trade, regardless. If Lohse comes back and goes on a tear and finished with 12 or more wins, then the contract doesn’t look so bad, just some bad luck, freak injuries, and frankly and injury that was caused by him hustling. With the way the Cards are winning right now, and the way they are constructed, on paper, one more starter may be just what is needed to go for the World Series. I say go for it. I would rather root for a team that goes for it, then one that is content to be over .500 year in and year out.
w/o Oswalt/Haren the CArds have a real good chance to make playoffs
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
If that is the goal, and why shouldn't it be
forget a pitcher and get another bat
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
only fox wins?
Fox_Sports_MW Last night’s #STLCards win was the highest-rated game on FOX Sports Midwest this season (per Nielsen). Thank you Cardinal Nation. #MLB
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 11:26 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
And that's amazing, because it was an option game
and not available in markets that didn’t pick up option games.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Winning streaks are fun
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
turn your keyboard upside down and hit "S"
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
heheh
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
by mstreeter06 on Jul 22, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
or maybe 90 degrees and "N"?
RFL for GG!
by stxcardsfan on Jul 22, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Y2S, Evilfrog, Fourstick
Thanks for the lively discussion/debate, I haven’t been around much lately, been crazy busy. But this has been a thoroughly enjoyable discussion today. I will be around a lot more soon. Thanks again!
I enjoyed reading through y'alls' debate
Since I have very little to add to these hypothetical discussions, other than “gosh, I really can’t decide how I feel about this.”
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Strasburg & Harper for Miller & Pujols
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
As Jack Ruby (almost) said
“Oswalt!”
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
EvilFrog/Y2S/Fourstick
have been dissecting the prospective deals for Oswalt/Harden/etc. as well as painting pictures on what they think would be great long term. It really has been a worthwhile morning.
yeah
it’s been a crazy morning, thanks to that calcutta guy saying that the cards were front-runners for oswalt. if that hadn’t been, i don’t think VEB would nearly be hopping as much as it is.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 22, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
You got something brown and smelly on your nose...might wanna wash it off...
'Don't kiss an ass if its in the process of shitting on you.' - Best advice ever.
Haha
I am appreciative of good conversation and differing opinions. It’s not often I am able to get on and discuss things with this group, intelligent baseball conversation is hard to come by. I live in a Cubs stronghold.
LOL, its cool man, just givin ya a hard time since you posted that twice...
I used to live with a Cubs fan. TV was stuck on WGN. Talk about torture.
'Don't kiss an ass if its in the process of shitting on you.' - Best advice ever.
Haha
My two best friends in the world are Cubs fans. I’m from NORTHERN Illinois, and live in central IL in a college town full of Chicagoans. Miserable.
what is Champaign?
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
No, the answer we were looking for was
Macomb, IL. I can see how you would be confused there.
We have this lovely parting gift of Jamie Moyer’s game used depends. Thanks for playing!
I don't think that qualifies as central IL
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
Agreed
Baseball makes the world go 'round, or at least in my world it does.
by Whiteyballer on Jul 22, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
us center of central IL folk don't just let anybody in "Central IL"
and it doesn’t get much more central than Decatur, IL
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
I'm actually just trolling....
I want to see if I can get fourstick enraged enough to break his monitor in a fit of rage if this trade goes through.
by Evilfrog on Jul 22, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I like these better than TESSes
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
almost 650 comments and counting, and it's not even noon (or 11 AM Central) yet
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 22, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
I literally just got to work. This is ricockulous
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
There are a few factors for me
1) The deal can’t involve Miller. I’m fine with any other package of prospects/ML Relievers, as long as Shelby’s not in it
2) Oswalt has to restructure his option, which I think I’ve read that he would
3) We have to figure out what to do with our other starters… It leaves 6 pretty good starters for 5 spots. I don’t know how feasible it would be to move Penny right now, but he’d be the odds on favorite.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
He's on the DL,
so it would have to be a waiver deal in August, assuming he’s healthy, wouldn’t it?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
it's not even the option anymore
he’s overpaid in 2011 and if his option is restructured it’s just going to defer the money.
also penny would make a mean reliever in the playoffs.
We need a replacement for Penny next year...
Oswalt is a good one…. He’ll be cheap in terms of either prospects or dollars, so why not. Garcia will be a non-entity come September and Carp may not be functioning either. I think we need Oswalt pretty bad.
Fire La Russa!
We already have 3 guys who project to do 3.5 ERA or better
There is no need to get 4. A league average starter replacing Suppan would go a long, long way.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 22, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Do you really think...
Garcia is going to take the ball every fifth day well into October and be effective?
Fire La Russa!
I think it's worth managing his innings to try to make that happen
instead of trading Shelby Miller for his replacement.
I'm not on board with trading Miller either...
even if Houston picked up most of Oswalt’s salary, but a package of Craig, Greene, and Sanchez could be ok.
Fire La Russa!
I'm really of two minds on this: (1) as long as Shelby stays
I’m cool with it. I think we at VEB probably fret more about $ than the FO does. If they think they have the means to spend the cash and want to, then by all means…
but then again (2) the deal might require giving up Shelby, and a big increase in payroll could hamstring our ability to resign Pujols, develop our farm with signings of top-tier draft and Latin American talent, and require us to fill out numerous roster spots with total scrubs
if #2 is true I don't think there'd be any way they'd do it
unless they had a complete 180 change of heart about what they’ve been saying the last several years.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not the dollars, it's the lack of flexibility that we'd have on our payroll should injuries occur.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Hey guys look, Jake Westbrook is available!
What’s wrong with a nice handsome league average sinker baller who’s a free agent after the season and will cost jack crap to acquire?
by vivaelpujols on Jul 22, 2010 12:03 PM EDT reply actions 8 recs
Could we get them to throw in Jhonny Peralta for The Ghost of Chris Lambert?
I think he could be a solid 3B/2B option for us as well, if not helping out at SS.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
If he costs anything, I don't want him
We’d be doing THEM a favor by taking him off their hands, lol.
I think he’s got a bit of upside if he can get out of Cleveland though.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
IIRC
I think the Indians are still wanting a decent return for Westbrook. Reports say that the Indians don’t simply plan to dump salary.
Baseball makes the world go 'round, or at least in my world it does.
by Whiteyballer on Jul 22, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
dave duncan turns him into Derek Lowe in his prime.
why does nobody think about this?
"The outfield is deep and playing him straight-away, and the infield is the same, except first, second, third, and short are playing him to pull."
-Mike Shannon
How's P90x working for you?
Are you hungry all the time? Do you have really sore joints and muscles?
I was thinking about trying it, but damn that’s a restrictive diet.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Here's my view of P90x
Yes… it works. If you do any decent workout plan with a strict diet for 90 days, it’s going to work and you’ll see results
But who the fuck wants to work out every day with that restrictive of a diet? It’s an inefficient workout plan. My suggestion to you would be to do Starting Strength, which is only about an hour 3 times a week, and then (I’m assuming you want to lose weight), eat at a caloric deficit of 500 calories a day using this calculation:
Men: 67 + (6.24 x weight in pounds) + (12.7 x height in inches) – (6.9 x age) = BMR
Sedentary = BMR X 1.2 (little or no exercise, desk job)
Lightly active = BMR X 1.375 (light exercise/sports 1-3 days/wk)
Mod. active = BMR X 1.55 (moderate exercise/sports 3-5 days/wk)
Very active = BMR X 1.725 (hard exercise/sports 6-7 days/wk)
Extr. active = BMR X 1.9 (hard daily exercise/sports & physical job or 2X day training, i.e marathon, contest etc.)
Whatever you get after that is your maintenance calories, so eat 500 under that while doing starting strength, and the pounds will shed off
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
BMR for me = 2636
I’d say I’m lightly active, so that would be 3625 a day – 500 = 3100 calories a day.
……but I’m already eating around 3000 calories a day of high fiber, protein, and vegetables.
I’m pretty out of shape after knee injury (ACL replacement) 3 years ago, but I still do body weight exercises 3 times a week and go on nightly walks with my wife and daughter of 1.5 to 2 miles.
I think I need to add in some high intensity workouts, but am worried about knee pain and possible injuries (I’ve had problems with hamstrings in the past as well).
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Just finished stretching
P90x is working great for me, I had blown out my right knee when I was younger, and recently hurt my knee around opening day. I’m coming back from it and I am actually a healthy eater already, so the diet isn’t bad at all for me.
I love p90x, if my knee stays healthy I will love it. I only sleep 5 or 6 hours a night anyway, so finding an hour or so to work out everyday doesn’t bother me. I would recommend it. Email me at pbg_222@hotmail.com if you want some more in depth discussion of it.
I'm thinking of trying Insanity out.
my buddy has it, so I wouldn’t even need to pay for it.
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
get a kettlebell
and Pavel’s Enter the Kettlebell. It’s the best.
"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning
Everyone I know who's done the workout
has ended up in the emergency room with either a concussion or a shoulder pulled out of socket.
I think it’s extremely overrated as a complete workout — you steal some good stuff from it (like the Romanian Get Ups) but the whole workout is a shame unless you’re built like a brick shithouse.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I'm built more like a porta-potty
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
Bidet
Just go with it….
Thanks for the email — I’ll get back to you on that. Would you be willing to mail the stuff to me?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Oswalt update.
Cards vice president of scouting and player development Jeff Luhnow did not call pitching prospect Shelby Miller untouchable yesterday, according to Joe Strauss of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.
Strauss reports that Oswalt has told acquaintances connected to the Cardinals that he would be flexible with his 2012 option if traded to St. Louis. Presumably that means he wouldn’t demand that the Cards pick it up.
Per mlbtraderumors.com
by lopey986 on Jul 22, 2010 12:06 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I don't know that the FO has ever called a prospect "untouchable" in the media, have they?
Wallace was never given the label, I know.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I was trying to remember if they ever came out and said that through the media.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Well, as hard as it is to find anything from the PD older than a week,
I found this:
A chorus of sources in the past couple weeks have all belted the same tune when it comes to the Cardinals: Any discussion with the local club about possible trades starts with the understanding Colby Rasmus ain’t going anywhere.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
There is such a thing as a position player prospect?
(TISATAAPPP)
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
700 comments already???
good grief. i do NOT want oswalt. I mean, in an ideal world, i do want oswalt, but if it means giving up shelby miller i think its a really dumb idea, unless the cardinals are going to raise payroll to $130mm or not resign you know you.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
Aaron Miles dummy
he’s an FA after this year
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
The Death Eaters aren't exactly gonna part with him easily....
Have to give up a few top prospects from AAA Hogwarts…
'Don't kiss an ass if its in the process of shitting on you.' - Best advice ever.
Dude, what the fuck are you talking about?
by vivaelpujols on Jul 22, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I dont even know anymore....que?
'Don't kiss an ass if its in the process of shitting on you.' - Best advice ever.
Hey Badger, why don't you go cry to the Fat Friar!
Hahahaha awww you gonna go tell Professor Sprout on me?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
oh go back to your Arithmancy.
you only watch Quidditch on your parchments.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
lineup
Miles (4), Rasmus (8), Pujols (3), Holliday (7), Allen (9), Molina (2), Ryan (6), Greene (5) … Modern Murders Row
is this more sarcasm?
You know….if you’re going to insist on Miles being on the team, then maybe you can justify playing him once in a while. But batting him leadoff? Are you f-ing kidding me? I thought Manuel was an idiot for hitting Ben Francisco third last night but this is crazy!!!!!!
I refuse to believe this is our starting lineup.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
You and Cody are conspiring to trick me.
I know what you are up to and it won’t work.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Who is this Tom Timmerman?
Clearly, his name is lifted from a Dickens novel or something. And what is this “stltoday.com”? Very convenient.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Manuel let his pitcher hit with the bases loaded in a tie game
This same guy has led his team to two straight World Series. Can we end the debate the managers fucking matter in terms of winning games?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
But dident u c teh statz on fsmw last nite???/
Manuel hsa won teh most gaems sense 2005
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
You are pulling out chains.
I don’t believe you.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
For all I know,
you are this Michael Bleach character, or, he is a Twitter alter ego of yours created as a part of this ruse.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
It would be great except for Miles
Replace Miles with Lopez an this is the best lineup we have had in a while.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 22, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that was my thought
Not a bad lineup, just a bad leadoff choice. I’d swap Greene and Miles and be OK with that too, really.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
felipe: 3-20 against hamels wth 7 Ks
i suspect this is the answer.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
someone said this the last time the lineup sucked and it worked.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
wow
Raz playing against LH.
And, no rest for Yadi
"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning
i am going to quietly enjoy the craig batting
Fifth thing. One step forward, one step back.
"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."
by tom s. on Jul 22, 2010 12:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
sorry if this has already been addressed, but does pujols' contract end this year with an option for '11, or does it end in '11 with an option for '12?
if its the latter, i see a scenario where we could actually afford oswalt, if pujols’ new contract did not start until 2013.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
is it really?
My programming guide has got nothing.
"...and pujols has given st louis the lead"
The Best Defensive Play I Have Seen in Person
follow me on teh twitterz @greenfieldt
by tgreenfield on Jul 22, 2010 12:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Same here.
I hope it’s wrong. This could be a well-timed vacation day.
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
And now for something completely different
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 22, 2010 12:22 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
so how has Hamilton looked thus far this season?
I know that he spent some time on the DL early on, but I was wondering if anyone has seen him down in Memphis this year.
The Astros are looking to possibly try and dump Berkman and most of his salary, so either Craig or Hamilton may have some value to them as a big bat that could step in and replace Berkman ASAP. Hamilton has no place in St. Louis, and I’m sure his trade value is close to nothing, but he could be a good filler in a trade for Oswalt and may fill a potential, low-cost need for the Stros.
RFL for GG!
he has been on the DL most of the season
But he recently came off the DL hitting homers left and right (just left, actually).
He has some value in a package as a second or third prospect, but he’s nowhere near a centerpiece.
"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."
by tom s. on Jul 22, 2010 12:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Good lord
I wish there was an easier way to navigate the comments section of VEB on an iPhone than just blindly scrolling up and down.
by lopey986 on Jul 22, 2010 12:28 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
On my Droid,
I can get the full site, which highlights new posts (obviously), but I can’t do a “Z” button scroll.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Yeah I can get the full site
But there’s not much point if I can’t Z scroll. So sad.
by lopey986 on Jul 22, 2010 1:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
792 new comments at 11am?
was there a trade or something?
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
Free Meth and Redbull at the VEB courtesy tent
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
this isn't normal
but on meth it is
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
by prophetjohn on Jul 22, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Oswalt was seen giving out foot massages at Lambert Airport.
Miles mysteriously in lineup today despite being assumed to be the centerpiece of trade.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
hoping he'll do another of those
3-4 with a homer and double to convince the Stros
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
A Shitty Overflow?
A Shitter Flow?
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
also, and this may have been said...
it would be really fucking nice if we could know whether lohse will be effective before we go making crazy ass sell the farm deals for another pitcher. if lohse is typical lohse, we don’t need a pitcher.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
good god
everybody gets a sniff of what it would be like to have another ace when we’re already a plenty good team and all of a sudden they’re ready to mortgage the farm. i still want to win beyond this year. no thanks, mr roy!
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
Going by FIP
Oswalt is a Top 15 starting pitcher this year
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 22, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
i don't think he will be worth 16M in 2011
But should this year. Oswalt is more a salary dump. He is pretty much worth what he is getting paid. I wouldn’t give up to much for him
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 22, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Wandymania < Jaimania
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
what, you gotta be sub-2.00 FIP
to be an ace in codyg’s world?
the man has been worth 3 WAR already
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
by prophetjohn on Jul 22, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
how many teams have 5 WAR #2 starters?
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
by prophetjohn on Jul 22, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Mortgage the farm?
Great idea!!!
Who do you think we can get for Springfield?
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jul 22, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I think our mortgage is higher than the value of the farm at this point
Welp, let’s move out, everybody
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
important news
Shelby Morris is being offered as the center piece in a trade proposal by STL for Oswalt but deal is not imminent..still negotiating
he means miller.
you knew it was gonna happen…
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 22, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Whew, that's a relief
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
if miller is involved they would be
so much for spending money rather than talent, though i guess it was just too much money to take on, so we sell miller to pay for it.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
can we get an overflow now?
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Lol Jim Bowden
I think we can officially cross him off the list of reliable sources of news.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 22, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
goddamnit
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
by prophetjohn on Jul 22, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I would think so
Surprised this hasn’t been brought up more
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I was just thinking about how annoying it is to have Penny on the DL for so long
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 22, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
OF Surplus
From Straussie’s collection of rumors and gossip on Oswalt:
The Cardinals suddenly possess a surplus of outfielders when Ryan Ludwick (calf strain) returns from a rehab assignment.
Jon Jay and Allen Craig have been particularly impressive in Ludwick’s absence. With Holliday and center fielder Colby Rasmus entrenched in the team’s plans and Ludwick under control through next season, the club could include one of its younger outfielders in a deal with young pitching.
“Holy shit! Where did this surplus of outfielders come from? My Lord, they are everywhere! Did someone conjure them up with magic!? Memphis, you say? I thought they only had faberge eggs in Memphis.”
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I think 2010 should have a no trade clause
where we don’t make any trades
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 22, 2010 12:56 PM EDT reply actions
can we just ban everyone who wants to trade miller for oswalt?
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
Lets force them all to give $5
to everyone who wants us to trade a used towel for Westbrook
by bobohilario on Jul 22, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
i am less concerned about Miller
He is years away and most likely won’t even make the Majors. Most HS pitchers flame out. I am more concerned about Oswalts salary hand cuffing us
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 22, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
you really think miller won't make the majors?
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 22, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
about 1 in 3 chance to be something better than a bullpen guy
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 22, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
this is such a flawed way of looking at it
what’s the attrition rate on non-prospects?
we need impact talent to compete in the future
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
i know
i’m talking about keeping those first rounders because once we trade them, the chances we have of getting a high caliber MLB player is significantly reduced
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
well if the Cardinals traded Miller
They obviously would believe that we have prospects in the system already or they can draft most likely college arms to get into the MLB by the time we need them
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 22, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
but they'll trade them as soon as we draft them!
that was the logic with brett wallace and now we’re trading shelby miller. next year we’ll be packaging austin wilson and zack cox for john santana
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
I would prefer Carlos Santana
not sure if John is much of a baseball talent
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
johan*
though maybe we can get carlos santana. he can sit in the dugout and play music to be an icebreaker. tony could also platoon him with colby in CF
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
how good is the catcher at guitar?
either way, i’d say the odds of tony platooning either with colby are roughly equal. 105%
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
Both
i was thinking we could fool MLB into thinking they’re one person, then keep a 26-man roster.
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
i will bet you 1000 interwebz dollars
That shelby miller not only makes the bigs but also will win 80+ games, strike out 450 per year and cause a dramatic rule change in not allowing him to throw fastballs. But seriously, shelby is the real deal. I feel ughhhhhhhhhhhhh
"...and pujols has given st louis the lead"
The Best Defensive Play I Have Seen in Person
follow me on teh twitterz @greenfieldt
by tgreenfield on Jul 22, 2010 1:05 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
if we give them miller, we won't have to worry about the salary
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
we also just paid Miller a $2.875M signing bonus
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 22, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
which can be recouped in a way if the stros are paying half of oswalt's salary
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Former GM for the Nats,
and I think the Reds before that.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
move on to the overflow yo.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
mo and dewitt
are like little kids who get a $20 bill and it just burns a hole in their pocket
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
anyone else find it how conserative we are with someone else's money
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 22, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
i don't care about the money
miller is the $20 bill
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2010/7/22/1582378/trade-buzz-overflow-pregame-thread
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
lynn, hawksworth/boggs, salas/sanchez, craig/jay/henley/greene/descalso/jones
For oswalt or haren gets it done I would have to believe.
by rumors on Jul 22, 2010 1:13 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
wow, miles really is leading off
i thought was trolling
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
Dunn dinger.
Reds are not playing like a division championship team today.
"They punched me a lot," Holliday said of the celebration [after his July 18 walk-off single]. "But they were good punches."
That sounds awesome, man
What kind of working are you doing?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
My primary project is working in a special education center.
Just spent today in a nature preserve with a group of students who were experiencing it for the first time. Great day.
by martimeryard on Jul 22, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
sweet
must be pretty damn hot this time of year, if i remember my time in the middle east correctly.
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
yeah. i guess it depends on where you are though...
i remember last march i visited some relatives in israel, and went to see metsada one morning…. pretty empty of tourists but still saw a couple of people with sunstroke.
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
march is still a good time of year
much better than it is now
by martimeryard on Jul 22, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
i'm just going to keep telling myself
that either the astros are posturing to force the phillies hand or mo is posturing force someone elses (marlins!) hand
oswalt’s contract doesn’t fit and this trade doesn’t line up with what the club has said about miller
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
Mo is nothing if not exceedingly methodical and rational
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Been out of the loop all morning
What’s the latest, have we traded Miller, Lynn, Colby, Greene, Jay, Sanchez, and Albert for Oswalt yet?
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME
WS, here we come!
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME
in all seriousness, have there been rumors on what prospects are being discussed
don’t have time to search this thread
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME
jim bowden says the cards have offered miller as the centerpiece for oswalt
i smell posturing
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
i believe that he heard that
or at least that he was told to say that he heard it
i don’t believe it’s going to happen
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
twatter
I think the only name that's really come up is Shelby Morris.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 22, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Shelby Morris has been mentioned, but, there being no record of any such prospect in the Cards' system...
it seems unlikely such a deal could be struck.
Fire La Russa!
haha
Mo is so gonna fleece the stros
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME
This thread is too intense to read
catch you all when the game thread pops up in 10 minutes!
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 22, 2010 1:47 PM EDT reply actions
What if. . .
the Cards deal Miller, but the ‘Stros pick up a large percentage of Oswalt’s option year?
I don’t think that likely, but would the more budget-conscious Faberge egg protectors in this crowd be more interested? I’m honestly curious.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jul 22, 2010 1:50 PM EDT reply actions
Miller provides probably $18 million in surplus value to the Cardinals
So Houston would have to pay most, if not all, of the option year
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Is that before or after figuring in the risk. . .
that Miller never pitches an inning in the majors, or never does a damn thing while there?
Brien Taylor, Adam Ottavino, David Clyde, Todd van Poppel, et al, are interested in your answer.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jul 22, 2010 1:55 PM EDT reply actions
Um, damn, that's a lot of posts
Anyone care to summarize? I’ll give you 934 internet dollars to do so… um… persons? (question mark?)
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 22, 2010 11:13 PM EDT reply actions
Summary
- Roy Oswalt would be awesome in a Cardinal uniform
- Yes, but he would cost us a lot of talent in trade and makes eleventy billion dollars the next three years.
- Sure, but, um, WURLD SERIEZ RINGZ ARE WURTH THE WRISK!!!!!
- The playoffs are a crapshoot.
- Sure, but Oswalt would help us shoot crap better — the guy can roll snake eyes nearly every time!
- I agree that Oswalt isn’t a good deal, but what about this Haren kid — he’s pretty good.
- He’s not really on the block and they only want quality prospects and major league ready pitching for him. Something we don’t have much of.
- Bummer, well, I thi….WAIT. MILES IS BATTING LEADOFF?!?!?! IN A BASEBALL GAME?!?!?!?! YOU MUST BE KIDDING?!?!?!
I think that about sums it up.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
oswalt won't cost us much talent unless we want the stros to pay his salary
so there is that. and the playoffs are far less of a crapshoot than people make out. the better teams tend to advance, as philly and new york can attest, and better is sometimes who is playing better at the time, which a really good player can affect.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Being a better team raises your odds to win the world series
But there are such massive deviations around those odds that it’s effectively a crapshoot.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 23, 2010 4:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I thought they were asking for a shitload of prospects for Oswalt
last I checked they were
chief justice
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 23, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, okay
Succinctly put, Sir ’stick.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 23, 2010 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Sooooooo guys....
$38m (and prospects) for 2.5 years of Oswalt.
OR
ONE TENTH of that amount to land Austin Wilson before the signing deadline.
Hmmmmmm…..
Still bitching to contact.
or both
i’ve always thought there was much better than a 50% chance wilson signs. i’d put the odds of working out a deal with the stros at just short of that. but i think both could happen.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
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