Sunday Reading with Robot
I'd like to take a moment, just sit right there, to tell you how Lopez is good and why you should care.
Entering the season, the Cardinals expected most of their infield production to come from Skip Schumaker and Brendan Ryan. While expectations for both Brendan Ryan and Skip Schumaker where low, the pair has produced abysmally at the plate. Fortunately for the Cardinals, Felipe Lopez was somewhat bizarrely left out to dry in the offseason free agent market. The Cardinals managed to pick him up on a 1 year, $1M dollar contract. Essentially he's playing for peanuts. While he's been unable to reproduce his 2009 statistical line, Lopez has been performing right around average this season worth 1 WAR thus far. He's already outproduced his contract against a hypothetical replacement player but has he saved the Cardinals more than that?
Lopez has played 20 games at SS (starting 16) and 16 games at 2B (starting 11). For the sake of ease, let's say that he's gotten about 30% of his plate appearances at SS and 20% at 2B. The other half come from 3B where Lopez is a comparable producer to David Freese. So Felipe Lopez has about 75 ABs at SS rather than Brendan Ryan and about 50 ABs at 2B rather than Skip Schumaker.
As I mentioned, both Ryan and Schumaker have been notably bad performers this season checking in at .247 wOBA and .288 wOBA respectively. They're far below average players and both are toeing the replacement level line when you consider all of their contributions. But offensively, the importance of Lopez this season becomes immediately apparent.
Lopez is tracking his career lines about as closely as Lindsay Lohan tracks the nearest alcohol serving establishment. (That's the second pop culture reference in this post though the first was far more high brow.) He's hitting .271/.339/.403 compared to a .269/.338/.400 -- like I said, very close. With a .332 wOBA, he's a touch better than league average (.324) for the season and right in line with most of his preseason projections. (ZiPS was, and remains, oddly pessimistic about Lopez.)
So taking Lopez's production to date, I'm going to abuse the non-regressed performance statistics of Skip Schumaker and Brendan Ryan in order to acheive my point. Even over a small time period like 125 PAs, If you assume that Skip and Ryan would have picked up those opportunities and (stat abuse!) performed at the same level as they have to date, Lopez has been worth 7.5 runs offensively. I'd argue that he's been as good as Skip at second and, given the erratic nature of Brendan Ryan at SS, not much worse their either defensively.
The point being that Felipe Lopez was a great signing this offseason in a context neutral evaluation. His 1 WAR performance to date has been something like $3M in surplus value ALREADY and anything more this year is gravy. But, if you contextualize things against the backdrop of the Cardinals' middle infield, Lopez has been far more important that at first glance.
* * *
You may know that I'm a fan of Colby Rasmus. What was once a well kept secret has somehow gotten out. Fortunately, it's done little to impugn my baseball evaluation credentials. (Unlike that offseason where I was all over Jason Schmidt and that $45M Dodger contract.) Anyway, given the bully pulpit one day a week, I'm going to fire a quick shot across the bow at a Reds player because I can.
If I get out my 2008 Baseball America prospect handbook, it features on the cover Jay Bruce, fellow 2005 draftee of Colby Rasmus. Before I look at their respective performances, I have to note that Dave Cameron has Colby as the #14 most desirable trade asset and Bruce is a lowly #25. Now, that trade series that Cameron does is incredibly biased and completely subjective and I often disagree with it . . . but it is a LIST and humans love lists. There are numbers there that you can easily subtract! Colby Rasmus is 11 spots higher than Jay Bruce! 11! This has no objective meaning but still exclamation points seem fitting!!!!!
!
So, how is Jay Bruce doing compared to Colby? Well, Bruce has never really progressed as a player since being called up in 2008. Last year he showed more power but sacrificed his line drives which took his BABIP out at the knees. He' s been a slightly above average player offensively for 2008-2010. Colby, however, has taken some really massive steps forward relative to his 2009 campaign. He's nearly doubled his walk rate -- though the walkapotamoose has been seen less in recent weeks -- and shown tremendous power without sacrificing the line drives. So Colby should be able to hit for a decent average (think .270) based on his batted ball profile. Add in the fact that he plays an above average centerfield to Bruce's right field and it looks like the Cardinals have the better young outfielder.
* * *
F**king Kyle McClellan, how does he work? If you're like me, you ask this question a lot. I consider Kyle McClellan a miracle and I don't care what scientists have to say about his changeup or his curveball. While it's dangerous, and likely wrong, to draw any significant conclusions about McClellan from 44 innings this year, I do feel the need to point out his success after his ERA dipped below 2.00 yesterday. He's developed excellent control this season with a BB/9 near 2 compared to 4.59 in 2009 and 3.09 the year before that. I don't think it's sustainable (more contact and fewer swinging strikes in 2010 than either previous season) but I suppose I'll enjoy it while it lasts. Still, how does he work?
* * *
Game time is 1:15pm. Be there.
420 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
look at those high brows

I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
Resident malcontented betamale
by slu on Jul 18, 2010 3:12 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Where is Colby's Ceiling?
They’re projecting Colby to finish the year with the following stat lines:
.280 AVG
29 HRs
77 RBI
.901 OPS
What I’m wondering is are we seeing Colby’s highest level of performance? Or does Rasmus have still one more gear he can kick it up? Don’t misunderstand, Raz is putting up GOOD numbers. I think the Cards can be very happy with an affordable centerfielder who can put these stats up consistently. But is it possible the Colby Rocket has one more stage?
Is it unrealistic to think he might get close to Ethier territory? Or is that just wishful thinking?
Arguably Rasmus > Ethier right now
I know about the caveats for defensive statistics, but right now Rasmus has almost 1 more WAR (2.4 to 1.5) this season than Ethier, mainly on the strength of better defense. And Colby’s defense has been below average this year based on said statistics. Last year, Ethier only beat Rasmus 2.8 to 2.5 in WAR despite his wOBA being .60 higher.
Maybe you just meant offensively; right now, Ethier has a wOBA of .398, and Colby .385 (which is better than Ethier’s .370 from last year). In that case I think it’s a fair question, though I’d like to think that if he does have another gear, it would take him past Ethier.
Didn't Eithier miss a chunk of time earlier this season? WAR is cumulative
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 18, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Indeed.
But he was using last years WAR.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
Ah
I somehow skipped over that sentence
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 18, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Nobody that young should be thought of as near his ceiling.
Well, Pujols maybe, but he exists out of normal time.
StanTheManFan
Contributes any way he can.
He's normally a nuclear physicist
Except when writing for this list.
by StanTheManFan on Jul 18, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
The thing with Rasmus...
is basically his potential is to be Ray Lankford. Which is a good thing (great thing) as I think Lankford is really one of the all time great Cardinals players. But at the same time, the sort of numbers he put up weren’t obviously sexy. Didn’t have a high average, walked a lot, had very good but not great power (Colby might have great power though). And he struck out a lot, which seemed to be what most “fans” got hung up on.
interesting comparison
wouldn’t have thought of that but it seems like he is pretty similar
*now with more veterany veteranness and a higher grit factor
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 18, 2010 4:53 AM EDT up reply actions
because I don't like the rate that colby strikes out I'm a "fan"?
In may, which is why I was voicing my displeasure of Colby striking out so much, he struck out 35% of the time and put a a line an impressive line of .226/.320/.357/.677; or just slightly better than Rick Ankiel’s worse month as a Cardinal.
Colby has been much better since then, his season K rate is now back to around 28%. If he can keep it around 25% he’ll be great. An All-star. (if he could ever get in on FESPN) but when Colby was striking out at 35% he was a horrible batter. Most “fans” being hung up on it was completely justified.
I dunno
I guess if you take the different run environments and factor that in, maybe. But Lankford didn’t break 30 homers until he was about 30 years old. Colby looks like he can hit 30 homers in a year right now. Not saying he will, but I don’t think Lankford had the kind of power that young that Colby appears to.
Lankford had a great career and I love me some Ray Lankford, but this early I’m going to be greedy and blindly optimistic and say Colby’s potential is even better than that.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
His potential is much more Jim Edmonds than Ray Lankford
-plus centerfielder (he even plays shallow like Jim Ed!)
-high walks
-high strikeouts
-ton of power and high BABIP
Really, this season by Rasmus very much resembles one of Edmonds’ sub-prime years.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
AJ Burnett
He’s wearing out his welcome with Yankees and having a subpar year. Think he can be had in a salary dump? I’d be willing to take a chance on that contract and cut Penny loose at end of year.
Just win
but can he cover up injuries like a Real Cardinal™? I have my doubts.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
does.not.compute.
you realize he has over $57 million coming to him, right? And he’s 33. And here are his numbers 2008-2009-2010:
K rate: 9.4 – 8.5 – 6.8
Fip: 3.5 – 4.3 – 4.9
xfip: 3.6 – 4.5 – 4.8
Fastball velocity: 94.3 – 94.2 – 93.4
I think Burnett has taken the title from Zito as the most untradeable starter.
Fire La Russa!
I'd take Z and his contract in a blink over...
Burnett and his deal. Z has $12 million less coming to him and his numbers all look more or less ok. Plus he’s had fewer injuries and is five years younger. Give that guy a new team and neutral luck and he’ll be quite good again.
Fire La Russa!
But AJ Burnett
seems to be grounded in reality… I don’t think anyone has ever accused Fat Z of that.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
This is the guy who insisted on a clause in his contract that provided for...
free, long-distance limo rides for his wife b/c she doesn’t want to fly… For the record, the players/contracts I’d least like to see on the Cardinals:
Peavy $45 million
Burnett $57 million
Zito $73 million
Lowe $37 million
Lackey $73 million
Zambrano $45 million
Santana $88 million
Sabathia $126 million
Lohse $28 million
Wolf $25 million
Verlander $77 million
Fire La Russa!
Meh, some of those wouldn't be so terrible.
At least Peavy was pitching at a high level (In a hitter’s park) before he got injured for the season.
The other ones, no matter the performance are just to high for us atm.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
Hahah
Peavey pitched at a high level for about 6 starts. Before that, he was not good.
Neither was Chicago in general....
It’s amazing what winning does to chemistry and morale.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
Also, if the Yankees really wanted to get rid of him.
They would pay most if not all of his contract. Not like we are taking all of it on ourselves.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
I'd be A-OK with Verlander
He’s a 200 inning horse whose velocity is going up.
Not afraid to nitpick
Yeah, the contract would be impossible for us though.
Unless we are letting Pujols go or something.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
With verlander on that deal,
We could just trade him for some less talented but cheaper players. Verlander for…escobar and romero?
I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons
by hazel on Jul 18, 2010 12:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Then how the hell do we get him from Detroit in the first place :D.
As much as I would love one of Romero or Marcum…
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
with the van.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 18, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
So that's what Fredbird does at night....
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
of course not
afternoon.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 18, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Those $20 million seasons in 2012-2014 are kind of scary...
For those to pay off they’ll have to be the 7th, 8th, and 9th season in a row that he’s >200 innings. Plus if 2009 proves to be the exception instead of the rule and he reverts to the 4+ fip pitcher he’s always been, I see lots of risk and marginal payoff.
Fire La Russa!
You are forgetting the new 50/50 raffles
that will be going in to place to pay for all the new contracts… with ideas like this it’s a shame I’m not on the fast track to a front office position…
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
I'm all for milking the management
for whatever they’ll give you… AJ will get nothing but mad props for me on that front…
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
Sure, I realize that
but we don’t have any chips to trade. Burnett would look much better in NL Central. Garcia is likely to flame out in 2nd half and/or next year from over-use. He might not be a number 2 anymore, but he still gives you alot of innings and Duncan will add some value. He might not be a bargain, but he won’t cost us anything.
Just win
If they take Kyle Lohse,
and eat maybe $5M of Burnett’s annual salary, I’d take this deal.
I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons
I so want to see kyle/boggs as starters
not only am I sick of seeing suppan starting on the mound, kyle/boggs are GOOD and actually have some potential.
Maybe I’m being crazy, but could suppan come out of the bullpen? How good bad was he for milwaukee in the bullpen?
Signatures are overrated.
Has quest for SP replaced MIF as #1 priority
or does Mo take the best player/offer available?
Does Dan Uggla help this team more than Ricky Nolasco?
I think SP has to be the first choice. I have no confidence Penny or Lohse will be back in 2010.
"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning
If Lohse is throwing bullpens
he has reasonable chances to be back.
Penny, though …
StanTheManFan
Contributes any way he can.
He's normally a nuclear physicist
Except when writing for this list.
by StanTheManFan on Jul 18, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
i realize this is obvious
but even if Lohse does come back his performance is entirely unpredictable. My guess is that he won’t be very good, so I’d say SP is still the greater need overall. In the long run though, I’d prefer Mo to get the best guy/best deal. Neither MIF nor SP need is worth giving up Miller.
we need another starter even if they both make it back
because who knows how long the comebacks will last. and we’re at the point where jaime’s innings are going to have to be managed, probably with some skipped starts. so mo better bring someone decent in before the deadline, lest we find ourselves SOL down the line. think the reds would deal volquez? he looked very good last night.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
haha
you took that seriously?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
ha, you must be very gullible
point was, volquez rocked, and the reds are lookin’ good – who are we going to acquire to keep us even?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
i'm ok with boggs being a starter
but i have a problem with kmac. i’m scared just about every time kmac enters a game for a relief appearance. i guess he’d be better than soup or hawks, though.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 18, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
your problem with Kmac is that him taking the mound "scares you"
that’s all well and good, but I, for one, take solace in the fact that the Cardinals don’t base their personnel decisions on your personal apprehensions
but McClellan has a lot more pitchers that he can throw
than Boggs. Boggs has two pitches. And his fast ball isn’t in the high 90s like it is from the pen. I Don’t see him being any better than Suppan on the mound.
i love how everyone was (justifiably) down on Boggs as a starter...
mainly because of control problems. The solution was to move him to the bullpen, where he’s been a real asset. Now that he’s been successful there, people want to move him back to being a starter.
And people complain because TLR likes to tinker needlessly and harmfully….
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think many were advocating Boggs as a starter
until 2/5ths of the rotation went down. When it looked like Penny would be back soon, a stopgap like Suppan didn’t seem so bad. Now that it looks like they need more than a stopgap, Boggs seems like one plausible option.
I’d rather keep him in the ‘pen too, but if he’s a better option than Suppan maybe he should get a look.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 18, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
or possibly Brandon Dickson?
He’s the second best SP at Memphis
Can he go longer than 4 innings? Does he have ML stuff?
"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning
Does he have ML stuff?
No.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 19, 2010 6:53 AM EDT up reply actions
And since he's demonstrated significant improvements in his control
He should get pigeonholed in a less valuable role when it seems he has the tools to be a starter?
Not afraid to nitpick
but he doesn't have the tools to be a starter
he has the tools to be a top of the line reliever. We are just assuming he has the tools because it is currently convenient for us to do so and we are tried of watching Jeff Suppan pitch.
Cardinals need to replace Suppan if Penny isn’t going to be back any time soon. But Boggs isn’t the answer.
In what way does he not have the tools to be a starter?
He’d sit 92-96 and has a slider and a curve, while throwing strikes.
Not afraid to nitpick
because to start for Dave Duncan
He is going to want two Plus pitchers(which he has) and 2 average pitchers. And he is going to need to be able to throw all of them on both sides of the plate.
This was the reason he was moved to the pen. Not being able to control four pitches on both sides of the plate. I’ve seen nothing to suggest that he has found this in the bullpen.
and Boggs would be just as succesful
if not worse than Suppan in the starting role. Difference is that Suppan also sucks in the pen. But Boggs’ fastball and slider make him a top of the line reliever.
That is ridiculous
Boggs would be an immediate upgrade over Suppan as a starter. The only thing I’d be worried about would be stretching his arm out to go multiple innings.
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 18, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Is the difference between
Suppan and Boggs in the rotation larger than the difference between Boggs and his replacement in the bullpen, long term? I really like Boggs in the pen, and constantly shuttling guys between starter and relievers can’t be good for their arms.
there are good replacements for Boggs in the pen
Salas, most likely. Maybe Kinney or Sanchez.
babip giveth... and babip taketh away
But going forwards.
I think Boggs is a good long term fit in the pen, as well as Salas/Sanchez. Franklin, Loogy’s and company won’t be around for much longer, I suspect.
I’d rather find another 5th starter, and let Boggs keep refining things to take over as the 8th inning guy, with Motte closing.
It's 10x easier to find a reliever than a starter...
Where did Ryan Franklin come from?
Not afraid to nitpick
Boggs is an upgrade over suppan,
And suppan doesn’t have to suck in the pen because salas will be duplicating boggs’s production in that roster spot.
I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons
by hazel on Jul 18, 2010 1:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
stretching his arm out for multiple innings
is also something i took into consideration.
I have no reason to believe that Boogs wont go 5 innings with 3 runs for the next 5-6 starts. Which is what we are getting with suppan. So why make that change?
Carpenter doesn't even have 4 average pitches (granted all 3 of em are plus)
Nor Lohse, nor Penny, and Wainwright just uses his changeup has a show-me.
Not afraid to nitpick
I'll be curious to see
if Wainright actually uses his changeup moreso going forwards. It seems like it could be a very useful addition, if he’s comfortable with it.
if he can develop a good one
having the grip really means nothing. he can show lincecum his curveball grip, but again means nothing. more important than the grip, because many different grips can get the same results, would be how to master it. i think the best way is something i learned from santana and subsequently teach – always throw long toss sessions with your changeup grip. this will develop your arm action into the same as for your fastball.
myself, i think waino would benefit more from a splitter.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I prefer a changeup to a splitter, considering his curveball movement.
If his primary breaking pitch had more horizontal movement rather than vertical, I’d agree with a splitter being more effective.
i like the splitter because of his lack of velocity
i love the changeups from guys who throw 95.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
The speed of the fastball (or changeup) don't really matter in that context.
It’s the speed differential between the two that provides the effectiveness.
ha, yes, i teach pitching
i’m aware of that, in general. but it does make a big difference if a guy throws 80 and his change is 70 or if a guy throws 100 and his change is 90.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
His curveball actually has as much horizontal movement as vertical
It’s not very 12-6y.
The break on an changeup/splitter doen’t mean that much. It’s mainly about deception/change of speed and command.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
penny had something nasty going for awhile
before the injury. i think it was a splitter. the bottom dropped out, but it also had a lot of fade into a righty, so i guess it could have been a change. do you know what it was classified? seems waino would have the hands for a splitter, making it perhaps easier for him than a change, which imo is the most difficult pitch to really master in baseball.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I think we had this same discussion a while back
I agree with you that controlling his change of speed pitch is the most important thing for Wainwright.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 19, 2010 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions
alright
remove the word “average”. He needs 4 pitches that he can throw for strikes on both sides of the plate
Well he's demonstrated in the past that he has a curveball and a changeup (which I thought was his most promising pitch)
Given that he couldn’t even throw strikes in the past with his FB/SL, I would at least like to see whether he can throw his CB/CH for strikes before writing him off as a reliever. If not this year, then going into next.
Not afraid to nitpick
Even last season,
I wanted boggs to remain in the rotation. He probably needs to improve his curve or develop a changeup to handle lefties. He would be death to mostly righty lineups like ours with no changes to his current repertoire.
I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons
by hazel on Jul 18, 2010 1:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
how do you know he'd maintain "significant improvements in his control"
if he were moved back to starter? if you think he would, then it never made sense to you to move him to the bullpen in the first place, because moving him to the bullpen had no effect on improving his control. I guess you think he’s just “figured it out” in the pen and can carry that back to the rotation with nothing lost. I disagree.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Because he was lost in the pen when he got there too
He went from having no idea where the ball is going to now being able to throw strikes. It’s not like he just instantly became this force, he was scary as late as mid-May I would say.
Saying he can’t start because we don’t want to lose a reliever is risk aversion of the worst kind. If he flops as a starter, move him back to relief!
He has starter stuff and has demonstrated control that he hadn’t previously shown.
Not afraid to nitpick
Like I said, I disagree he's just "figured it out" in his short bullpen stint and will maintain his control
if moved back to the rotation. (Maybe he was just tipping his pitches!)
And risk aversion and risk assessment are two different things.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 18, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
cj beatty... havin' himself a night.
too many caps to re-paste
http://twitter.com/cjbeatty44/status/18818768187
http://twitter.com/cjbeatty44/status/18818931502
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
...

"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
Ahahaha
No matter how annoying the meme is, it is hilarious.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
DanUp did a feature on Chief Justice
and something went wrong with one of his links…
http://stlouis.sbnation.com/2010/7/18/1575263/jon-jay-this-weeks-minor-league-hero
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
...
jay has got some serious potential, i think. good bat, good arm. almost a poor man’s rick ankiel (but a better hitter). it was nice to see this in person.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 18, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
I think Jay's recent performance
has caused people to vastly overrate his bat. It’s not very good.
He does provide very solid defense, and is a prototypical 4th outfielder, in my mind. Defensive flexibility is nice. But…..
He doesn’t walk, has a moderately high strikeout rate, and doesn’t have much pop in the bat to counter that.
I like Jay – as a defense-first 4th/5th outfielder. But we really need to keep our expectations of him a little more reasonable, especially concerning his offense.
craig is a far superior hitter to jay
craig could start in LF for a team w/o a holliday. i can’t envision jay starting in the bigs, but do think he could stick as an outfield reserve.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I like Craig as a Backup corner outfielder/first baseman
with us – but I wouldn’t be all that upset if we used him as a trade chip, either. I just worry about right field in the future, if we can’t resign Ludwick. I’d be pretty content with Jay as our 4th OF of the future, but as a starter? No thanks.
Craig is really not that great of a hitter
CHONE has him for .272/.329/.441 and Jay for .277/.333/.401, which would make Jay the better overall player when you factor in defense.
Not afraid to nitpick
I think Craig might project a little bit better.
Not sure how CHONE is calculated, either. Is that Rest of Season projections? Does it account for his god awful BABIP luck so far this season?
I like both of them, and agree that while Craig isn’t the ‘answer’, he’s still a cheap piece with the potential to surpass .850 OPS, even if not this season.
Yes it factors in BABIP
And is likely a better mean expectation than anything we can throw out. It’s not gospel, but point is, Jay isn’t much of a worse prospect than Craig if he is at all.
Not afraid to nitpick
i don't know this chone guy
but has he ever watched these two hit? craig is by far the superior hitter. so i still think he could start in left for some teams, but i don’t think jay’s bat would play well in left. there have been a lot of goofy and downright awful projections of guys with no real big-league experience (i think the projections work pretty well for guys with a major league track record, though, which they should), and so i trust myself more than the projections on these unknown quantities, and my record is better than theirs.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I severely doubt your record is better than CHONE
And I’ve watched Craig/Jay play too and those lines feel right to me. Neither has great plate discipline, Craig with more power.
Not afraid to nitpick
Craig is a slightly better hitter, Jay a much better defender.
I do think this season, they’re pretty close in value, but I like the way Craig projects in future seasons, moreso than Jay. Maybe it’s just a gut feeling, but I think Craig has a higher ceiling.
we were only talking hitting
at least i was. there are different types of plate discipline, i suppose, than just measuring walks. craig has excellent discipline to lay off strikes he can’t do anything with, even if he gets to 0-2. he’s a very confident hitter.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
it is
when i saw projections for guys like bowker putting him on par with luddy i went through the guys i disagreed with – remember, we’re talking about rookies or guys with no track record. vets are easy to project. anyway, so far i’m right about more than they were.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
so far you've beed right about more players than the CHONE projection system?
impressive
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
well, there was only about 12 of them that i took a stance on
so it’s really not all that big a deal. they just miss badly on some guys who have no track record.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Yawn.
I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons
by hazel on Jul 18, 2010 1:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
late night?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Your fallacious reasoning is tiring
Chone was wrong once when I was right therefore I am better than chone. Logic fail.
I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons
by hazel on Jul 18, 2010 6:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
you read things that aren't there i've noticed
or perhaps it’s not a comprehension problem, but intentional. anyway, that’s not what i said.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Looks like Loney had a cramp yesterday.
Dodgers first baseman James Loney had to be helped off the field in the ninth inning of Saturday’s 2-0 loss to the Cardinals, then received an IV, after suffering a cramp in his left hamstring, but said he expects to play Sunday.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 18, 2010 11:23 AM EDT reply actions
Hawksworth has been a capable, if unspectacular, starter his last few times out
6 innings and 3 ER, 5 innings and 2 ER, 5 innings and 2 ER. His command has been a bit shaky, but it’ unfair to denigrate his contribution by calling it a throwaway game.
Heh. Allows ESPN to paint Philly as team getting it back together.
Hope Hawksworth shuts them down.
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
Philly is the type of team,
That could go down in flames to a eighty with a decent changeup.
I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons
by hazel on Jul 18, 2010 12:55 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I've been pretty pleased with Hawksworth.
He’s been putting the better-than-expected fastball down and away, and his changeup has played pretty well in the conversion to the starting rotation. He’s missing bats with it, keeping his walks down, and being very effective as a 5th starter type.
Suppan, on the other hand…
Damn
>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez
Adam Wainwright reaches on force attempt, throwing error by Aaron Heilman. Jaime Garcia scores. Brendan Ryan to 3rd. Adam Wainwright to 2nd. None out.
Still one of my favorite movies of all time.
And Gammon was made for that role.
'Why are you 40 with highlights?' - Scott Rolen during interview with Kevin Millar
oh yes. don't forget to Vote Albert in Web Gems.
Scroll down! http://espn.go.com/mlb/
Albert has 2 plays in Top Plays today. 7 (reclining) and 4 (diving).
Whoa, looks like Ozzie talked to SportsNation.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Per Rotoworld:
Albert gets a day of rest. Craig at first.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 18, 2010 12:06 PM EDT reply actions
It's weird.
Albert gets a day off when we aren’t playing the Pirates?….
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
It's Sunday.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 18, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I see what you did there...
Keep it holy.
'Why are you 40 with highlights?' - Scott Rolen during interview with Kevin Millar
I'm not sayin'
I’m just sayin’.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 18, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Sweeping a team should be avoided at all costs...
of course Allan Craig projects to be about as good as Albert…
Fire La Russa!
Seeing as they swept our asses in June...
You’d think we’d want to return the favor now. But Tony’s right. After several days rest around the all-star break (outside of Tuesday’s 3 innings), why risk playing Albert too much now?
Adios Esposito.
Adios Sarge. Say a prayer for Surf Boy...wherever he is.
Craig will seriously regress
batting .091 w/MLE of .268
we’re looking at 10 hits in his next 22 PAs.
"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning
I'm thinking 19-21 hits out of the next 22 at bats...
anyone who disagrees with this suffers from an irrational hatred of all that is good and right in baseball and in the world generally.
Fire La Russa!
by guayzimi on Jul 18, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
/ponders above post quizzically, then reminds self for millionth time that regression can be upwards
maybe we need a new term
/ponders above post quizzically, then reminds self for millionth time that regression can be upwards
where are our Latin scholars? I need a prefix.
"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning
upgression.
/totally not latin
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 18, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
supergression
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 18, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
sexygression.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 19, 2010 7:00 AM EDT up reply actions
sweeping
i think we’ve only swept one team this year – the braves in a 4 game series. not a chance today w/ soup on the mound, right?
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 18, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Always a chance.
We’ve been hitting the ball pretty well, and Padilla isn’t precisely an ace.
Although he ‘is’ an Opening Day starter!
Sweeping is too extreme...
We should just try to “plug along” and win each series. Sweeping actually leads to an excessive amount of wins.
Fire La Russa!
According to CHONE or WCBW?
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
any chance Ludwick activated today?
"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning
probably won't be at least for another week.
'Why are you 40 with highlights?' - Scott Rolen during interview with Kevin Millar
whoa, they were so glad to get rid of Yunel
Braves clubhouse apparently gave Alex Gonzalez a standing o.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Whoa.
I was a bit derisive of the move, but… sometimes you really can’t account for what kind of impact a guy has off the field, that may or may not impact other players on-the-field performance.
Yeah, if true that's telling.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 18, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
all this was mentioned the day of the trade
but also long before, how the players really really wanted him gone, and although cox couldn’t stand him, he was willing to tolerate a lot to win. obviously his tolerance too ran out, and this time escobar wasn’t producing enough to save his ass.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
tony hates sweeping
i don’t mind giving albert an off-day, but raz too? larue was a given with soup pitching.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 18, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
He is injured....you realize.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
oh yeah.
well, this lineup would’ve been the perfect give-away game with miles at 2nd instead of schu. alas, we’ll lose anyways. if we win with this lineup, i’ll say tony is a genius. with a dagger in my heart.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 18, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I will just keep calm and carry on...without Albert...or Rasmus...or Luddy....or Freese...or Yadi...*voice fades off into the distance*
'Why are you 40 with highlights?' - Scott Rolen during interview with Kevin Millar
...

I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 18, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Holliday not hitting 3rd?
Weird. Would of switched both Holliday and Craig in that order.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
what a disgusting joke
i was almost right with my joke lineup. had rasmus in instead of holliday, but i nailed all the the other players and craig batting third and playing first.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
oh and i guess miles isn't playing
but still.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
They're still nursing Colby a bit
because of his hamstring tweak from last week.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 18, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
they're still nursing colby a bit
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
can't have that!
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
...you want a cookie?
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 18, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I WANT A BETTER LINEUP!
AND TO NOT BE RIGHT WHEN I’M JOKING!
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
well you're not exactly helping him
gain confidence
when you so blatantly show him you’ve already given up before he’s thrown the first pitch
it must be frustrating for soup
Considering he was cut by the Brewers...
Not sure you can really lower his confidence level much beyond that. If he gets us 5 innings of respectable work, we’ll have to be pleased.
I still want an actual 4th/5th guy in there, from outside the system (or a healthy, effective Penny/Lohse….but hey, I’m being realistic), though.
Meh
I’m happy that our C-team lineup is that good.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jul 18, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
yep
No Miles and Stav. No black holes defensively.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No Miles!
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 18, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
What sort of depresses me about this lineup
is that Miles isn’t in this collection of backups. So Tony considers him a Starter, worthy of giving rest to?
I’m mostly joking, of course – but I’d rather see Miles in a game like this, than one where we put a more uh… legitimate lineup on the field.
you know boog has slipped
when he gets slotted into the “sweep” game B team while greene gets the day off
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
gollum-TLR and smeagol-TLR
STLR – if our precious needs a day off, who shall start at first? Why, allen craig!
GTLR – we hates the craig!
STLR – but craig is young and has potential, and may be an excellent power hitter.
GTLR – nasty, thievish rookie steals playing time from veterans! We sends it back to memphis!
STLR – but we need young players to spell the veterans. All the big veterans were rookies once.maybe we bats him third!
GTLR – we hates the craig! We tells mo never to put him on the roster! Dirty nasty rookie! )gollum, gollum(
"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."
by tom s. on Jul 18, 2010 1:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 11 recs
Allen Craig: PO-TA-TOES
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 18, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
gollum-TLR and smeagol-TLR
Why isn’t this green?
The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun
Dodgers 8-5
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 18, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Because Vicente Padilla
(Craig hits 5 solo HRs)
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 18, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
man i took some pictures of the guy yesterday
i really hope that was water in his hair and not product
he’s a weird looking dude
yes on the craig 5 x solo hr’s,
Did you mean, Craig hits 5 towering line drives, and all of them are robbed of HRdom by inexplicably brilliant defensive plays from Manny and/or Matt Kemp?
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
is manny back?
i sort of enjoy xavier paul. reminds me of lonnie smith in the outfield. i think manny might be better than paul.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
9-7, Cards.
We jump to an early lead, Soup is done after 5 ip and 4 runs. We hold on, despite McClane giving up a few while eating innings.
Timmeh says Scotty lit a fire in the ASG with his first-to-third.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
bees! bees! bees!
in the Marlins stadium thing.
…they’re gone now, Jason.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
"Now's your chance to tell your kids that you saw Albert Pujols... do everything."
chills, man.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
radar still says it's raining downtown
but it also says it’s still raining here in webster groves and it’s not. so i think this game will probably start on time.
http://www.weather.com/outlook/recreation/golf/map/interactive/63119:4
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 12:58 PM EDT reply actions
can colorado please wake the F up today?
since we’re looking at a loss, it’d be nice to not fall a game and a half back and lose a half game in the standings on a weekend where we took 3 of 4.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 1:03 PM EDT reply actions
i watched the games
rocks are awake, just the reds better.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
why didn't ubaldo pitch in the series?
that makes no sense to me.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Dunno.
It amuses me to see Ubaldo regress, though. Has had what, an ERA around 5 his last half dozen starts? People going nuts over his heavily luck-driven start to the season were getting on my nerves a tad.
FESPN.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
ubaldo is MAYBE the fourth or fifth best pitcher in the league right now
johnson, halladay, and wainwright are all clearly better than him.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd say Strasburg is definitely better
Even if we generously say he has the same stuff, he has much better command.
Not afraid to nitpick
i was going by essentially raw statistics
but if you want to go down that route strasburg and lincecum are definitely better as well.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
And if we aren’t going cumulative, Strasburg’s rate stats are off the charts.
Not afraid to nitpick
strasburg is going to be very good.
but i’m not quite sold yet that’s he’s this good. i know there’s no reason for me to think that, but i’m just not sold.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Well I doubt he's 2.11 xFIP true talent
But you don’t put up a 2.11 xFIP over 8 starts in your first season without being really good. It’s not totally absurd to think he’s the best pitcher in baseball going forward, I’d say he’s in the conversation at the very least.
Not afraid to nitpick
i agree with all of that.
i think his xFIP ends up somewhere in the 2.8-3.0 range. which is obviously still really, really good.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
i said i agreed that he could be the best pitchers in baseball. i just don’t he’s quite THIS good.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I consider Ubaldo to be around 10th, maybe.
Maybe 8th-9th. Johnson, Halladay, Wainright, Lincecum, Strasburg, Gallardo, maybe a few others.
Ubaldo is a lot like Kershaw. Good stuff, iffy command. A good pitcher, but not great….yet.
I like Ubaldo, I think he’s pretty good – just the WINZ and ERA crowd after 10-11 starts were being a tad delusional.
you underrate ubaldo a lot
he probably has better stuff than anyone but strasburg – gallardo isn’t in ubaldo’s league. i love kershaw, and he’ll be an ace and i suppose already the best lefty in the league, but he’s not yet in ubaldo’s class.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
You overrate Ubaldo a lot
He has good stuff, but unlike Strasburg – his command isn’t in his league. I love Ubaldo, but much like Kershaw, his command just isn’t in the class of some of the superior pitchers.
so he's somewhere in-between our two evaluations i guess
at least for now, but he does improve a lot year to year, so next year we’ll probably see a real beast.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I do think that his stuff portends
to something closer to a .280 BABIP or so, rather than the league average. But that’s a far cry off of where he’s at now, let alone where he was before his recent bout of regression.
i'd be shocked if he had a .300 BABIP
it’s just too hard to square him up. he’s got sink, he’s got rise, his slider continues to improve (and needn’t even be great to buckle hitters considering his velocity), and his changeup can just disappear. i wouldn’t doubt if he was the toughest guy to square up, so i’d expect him to have the lowest BABIP. where does he rank in that, btw, i really don’t know?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
UBALDO JIMINEZ IS IMMUNE TO HAVING NORMAL LUCK!!!!!
he has a .283 career BABIP and a .272 projected BABIP going forward this season. at the beginning of the year, he was projected to have a .302 BABIP.
to suggest his .248 BABIP is sustainable and “normal” because he has “such great stuff” is silly.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
boy, if you put all your trust in projections, why play the game?
did they understand and project that he’s improved about 50% from last year, and that he likely will again next year? if his career BABIP is really .283, then considering how far he’s come on the dominance scale i’m not surprised at all by a .248. i think he can finish the year at .258 or so.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
you wrote your funeral with the subject line.
nice discussing with you.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
so you really put all your trust in projections, huh?
ah, well, there’s a lot more to the game. it’s also nice to study the talent, rather than just their numbers.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
really, it's true
i was scouting a kid once and i sent back raves and a glowing review. i really liked everything about this kid. i got a call – turns out the kid scored only 3 points in that game, had 2 or 3 assists – it was really pedestrian by the numbers, which i was completely unaware of anyway. i was watching the kid, not counting his numbers, and he completely dominated the game, so i thought he was someone worth checking out further. the kid was a lottery pick out of high school, and if not for a horrible knee injury i still think would have been a special point guard in the nba. yet in that high school game his numbers would suggest otherwise, if one were to only look at that.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Funny.
They made the same mistake that you are making in this thread: they relied on numers that are too small a sample and influenced heavily by luck.
I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons
by hazel on Jul 18, 2010 7:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
funny
every one commenting here is relying on numbers that are too small a sample, but that’s all we have to-date to evaluate.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
But...
BABIP requires a much larger sample size to stabilize (predict future BABIP at at least a 50% clip) than K-rate or BB-rate. So effectively, we are using adequate samples while you are using small samples.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 19, 2010 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions
what else do i have?
we’re talking about a groundball pitcher who no one can square up, so we’re essentially talking BABIP.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
he's getting groundballs at the same rate as last year
he’s striking batters out at the same rate as last year
he’s walking batters at the same rate as last year
his xFIP is pretty much the same as last year
his tERA is better than last year, but nowhere close to his ERA
what’s different? besides the results, of course
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
BABIP is different, so results will be
the question is, how much is luck and how much is nasty stuff inducing weakly hit balls? i don’t know that answer, but in watching every game i just don’t see him getting lucky on balls in play. could he be? i suppose. but i just haven’t seen it.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
why was his nasty stuff
not inducing as many weak ground balls as last year? the exact same number of groundballs to be exact
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
weakly hit balls
they are not all grounders. but even then, there are weak grounders and hard hit grounders – are you saying he’s inducing the same number of weakly hit grounders as last year, because i’d disagree with that.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
i'm not drawing any kind of conclusion
i’m saying everything we know about him suggests that he’s doing everything exactly the same, but getting better results. the better results being driven by an unsustainably low BABIP which is a stat that is incredibly influenced by luck and not predictive of future performance
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
NOBODY CAN SUSTAIN A .248 BABIP
I can’t even believe we are having this discussion.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 19, 2010 4:34 AM EDT up reply actions
what's the record for lowest in a season?
i don’t think he can get .248, but with that in the book i did say i think around .260 was possible for this one season. has anyone ever done that? probably about the equivalent of a hitter batting .400 for the season.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Pedro's peak is an interesting case
‘97-’03 he had a .280 BABIP, with a fun 3-year stretch of a .325 BABIP in ’99, .237 (!) in ’00, then back up to .310 in ’01.
So the answer is, YES, it is possible to have a BABIP of ~.240 for a season. That doesn’t mean it’s likely that you’ll have a BABIP of .240 the next season, but it is possible to maintain that “luck” for a whole year.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
Well, Nolan Ryan did it a number of times
At least for a full season at a time, every couple of years. he had BABIPs of .233, .240., .249, .251, .244, .246, and .232 (27 starts at age 44!), a .249 in 13 starts at age 46, and about another half-dozen under .260.
But his career was still .269, and some of his best BABIP seasons were at the end, so he probably wasn’t really that good.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
that is amazing for ryan
really, that is a feat to do multiple times.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I have to give you some credit here, I suppose
he’s been giving up fewer line drives than ever before (which is possibly luck-driven), which is probably behind the reduced BABIP. However, his BABIP and home run rate are still unsustainably low, especially as he’s giving up more fly balls than in his two previous full seasons. He’s certainly having his best year, and a very good year in general, but he’s not having the best year of any pitcher in the NL. (And I’m not gonna touch that first line.)
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
I'm not really sure
if he’s trolling, delusional, a little slow, or on Ubaldo’s payroll. But I’m done arguing for the night. Back to work on my paper while occasionally commenting on game thread.
how about none of the above
you should be careful making inferences about people you don’t know. i have to remind kids that all the time when they think they have made a friend on the internet. true, i’m approaching it from a scout’s perspective, but that is at least as valuable as a sabr perspective. the one’s who have most difficulty with this, i’ve noticed, are the sabr-inclined. scouts readily accept the numbers angle, but it doesn’t seem to work in reverse. oh well.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
But your scouts perspective is bullshit, because is ubsubstantiatingd
I’ve had hundreds are arguments with Rockies fans who’ve tried to convince me that Ubaldo is not getting lucky this year. They have all failed to prove their points, or to deny my proof.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
we may just have a different concept of luck
i’ve watched all his games, and it’s not like balls are getting smoked at fielders. that’s what i consider luck. there’s a lot of weakly hit balls, which is exactly his game plan, so i don’t consider carrying out your game plan really well as luck. however, i understand what you are saying, if you just look at the raw numbers it would seem there should be more hits and runs allowed, etc., because he isn’t a strikeout pitcher and walks some guys – i get that, i just don’t see it in the games.
i make the same argument when it comes to waino stranding runners. i know a high strand-rate is considered lucky, but i think waino is one of some pitchers who can actually bear down more, and i don’t consider him lucky in that – i think it is somewhat a skill. this is not a sabr position, i understand, but nothing will convince me that he and some others do not have this ability, just like some pitchers have a low strand-rate and i don’t consider them all to be unlucky because some just fold a bit more often under duress, imo.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
My definition of luck is when the cumulative events don't match the cumulative probabilities
For example, say that Olivo sets up down and away with the slider and Ubaldo throws it right down the middle. It’s a hanger, but the batter takes it for a called strike for some reason – maybe because it was such a surprising bad pitch.
That, IMO, is luck. If you add up each individual pitch like that and see Jimenez has received disproportionately favorable outcomes, than you can say that he has gotten lucky in terms of how many runs he’s given up.
Of course, we can’t do such an analysis even with Pitch f/x data, therefore we need to come up with proxies for how lucky a guy is getting.
So we only use stats that are more or less in a pitchers control, such as strikeout rate, groundball rate, and walk rate for the most part. Those stats are much less influenced by luck (things outside of the pitchers control) than BABIP or strand rate or HR/FB.
So when a guy has “non-luck” peripherals that scream he’s a 3.50 ERA pitchers we are pretty sure that he is getting lucky because it’s really easy to have a low or high BABIP or strand rate without the presence of an underlying skill.
Of course we don’t know that Jimenez is getting lucky, but the odds of him running an ERA 1.5 points lower than his xFIP are so low that we can be pretty confident in saying he’s been lucky.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 19, 2010 1:56 AM EDT up reply actions
it might be really easy
to have a low BABIP and high strand rate without the presence of an underlying skill, and i’d call that lucky, but it is also possible to have the same without so much luck and with considerably more skill. i have seen no evidence that ubaldo is lucky in those two areas, but i’ve seen considerable evidence that he’s not just by watching his games. obviously it is a combo of skill and luck, as with every pitcher, but i believe ubaldo is far more on the skill side of the ledger.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
then what's he doing differently than last year
and why isn’t it showing up in anything beside his BABIP and subsequently his ERA?
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
i think his pitches are better
his command in the zone is better, and he’s sequencing them better, but i’d defer to a pitch f/x comparison of this year to last.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
that would show up in his peripherals
everything being exactly the same does not support the theory that his stuff is different
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
i think inducing weak contact
could be a result of better stuff and command. weak contact would likely show up in BABIP and hr/fb rate.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
but better stuff would show up in areas other than BABIP!
like missing bats! but his K rate is actually slightly down!
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
he's pitching to contact
he’s becoming more of a pitcher than a thrower, so he might get a few less k’s but it’s apparently worth the tradeoff.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
you're saying things that don't actually mean anything
more of a pitcher than a thrower
that doesn’t mean anything. you said he has better stuff. i asked you since he has better stuff, why isn’t he striking out more batters. you responded by saying that he’s a pitcher, not a thrower
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
i said his gameplan is to pitch to contact
because he is confident they can’t square him up. i think it’s a good concept, something duncan might agree with. maybe he can go deeper into games. he can still get k’s – he had 13 in a game this year.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
was that not his gameplan last year?
if not, then why didn’t he start striking out fewer batters?
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
i think it was his gameplan last year
he just wasn’t as good at it, but he’s able to make better pitches now, which is why he’s an improved pitcher.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
then why isn't he inducing more groundballs
if he’s now better at his gameplan which is to induce ground balls?
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
his gameplan is to induce weak contact
he happens to be a groundball pitcher, and i think he’s getting a lot of grounders, isn’t he? seems like it, anyway. but fewer are going for hits because fewer are hard hit. he’s putting more pitches in locations that make it really hard for the hitter to get good wood on them.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
which would necessitate
more swing and misses. you can’t reduce hard contact without reducing contact
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
is he not getting more swings and misses?
i honestly don’t know, but it could just be a matter of when those swings and misses are coming in the count – you could get more swings and misses without getting more strikeouts, and you could even get less k’s.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
i think you are trolling, as usual
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
He's going to be 50% better AGAIN next year?
At what point does he have 50 wins in 30 games and a negative ERA?
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 18, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
not his numbers
they obviously cannot improve like that. but he as a pitching package, yes, he’s not even near his peak yet.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
How exactly has Ubaldo improved this year?
2009 K/9: 8.17
2010 K/9: 8.01
2009 BB/9: 3.51
2010 BB/9: 3.25
2009 GB%: 52.5%
2010 GB%: 51.9%
The only difference between Ubaldo this year and last is that he has allowed fewer hits on balls in play, stranded more baserunners and allowed fewer home runs on fly balls.
All three of those aspects of pitching are very unstable in a single year sample size (meaning they do not reflect what the pitchers actual rate “should” be). The fact that Ubaldo’s strand rate is high this year doesn’t tell you anything about how he’s pitched.
Read this please:
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/fantasy/article/when-do-stats-become-meaningful/
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
he's allowed fewer hits on balls in play
because he is a better pitcher now, has improved his stuff and command, and so batters square him up less often. same with the homers. to me that is the mark of an improved pitcher. isn’t the idea to not let them hit the ball hard, or far? he’s becoming more of a pitch to contact pitcher because he has the ability to induce weak contact. but he can still get the k when necessary, like maybe when runners are on base and he wants to leave them there. he’s a much better pitcher this year than last, and has continuously improved since he came up in the pen. sort of like waino.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
...
because he is a better pitcher now, has improved his stuff and command, and so batters square him up less often.
Or, he’s doing the exact same thing that he did last year and is getting lucky in how many balls in play go for hits. The whole point is that anyone can have a high or low BABIP based on luck (same with HR/FB) which is why past BABIP in a half season has almost zero predictive value towards future BABIP.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 19, 2010 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions
if a hitter comes in the next year
with 25 lbs. of added muscle, and his hr/fb rate drastically increases, would you say it was lucky because his past five seasons are a better indicator than this half season?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Nope
But since Ubaldo’s other stats are all exactly the same (as well as, say, his fastball velocity and pitch movement) I’d say nothing has changed drastically.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 19, 2010 3:10 AM EDT up reply actions
what about his command?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
if he has better command
why isn’t he striking out more and walking fewer batters?
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
i think his better command in the zone
is allowing him to miss the fat part of the bat more often, get weak contact. i don’t know why that would make him walk fewer or strike out more.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
that doesn't make any goddamn sense
he has better command within the plate, but he still completely misses exactly as often and exactly as badly?
hi, my name is cardball, i teach pitching and i don’t know why better command would allow a pitcher to walk fewer batters
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
are you talking about command or control?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
i thought we were talking location within
the zone, or command. he’s not leaving balls over the middle too much, so he’s making tougher pitches to hit, keeping the ball down unless he’s throwing high heat, and not “hanging” changeups. i do think his control is also better, though i don’t know if his walk rate has improved overall, mostly due to a few games he walked a lot, including 6 in the no-hitter. but he has a lot of 0, 1, or 2 walk games, probably the majority.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
there's no difference
either one you choose, you are saying that the pitches are going where he wants them to go more often which would invariably result in a lower BB rate
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
i'm saying they are going in the zone
where he wants them to go. he’s not throwing meatballs. and other than a few high bb games, his control is consistently much better than last year.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
and i'm saying
that all that means is that he is better able to locate is pitches or make them go where he wants them to go or make them do what he wants them to do. him improving that ability would undoubtedly allow him to walk fewer batters unless he’s walking those batters because he wants to
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
Its not even worth having a discussion with him
He continually abuses statistics, doesn’t understand correlation and causation and doesn’t back up any of his points.
Just forget about it. Let him think Ubaldo will sustain a .248 BABIP going forward.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 19, 2010 4:36 AM EDT up reply actions
i haven't abused anything
i understand your point-of-view, i just don’t happen to agree with it. i understand, you love waino and hate ubaldo because you think waino is getting a media shaft or something.
and i didn’t say ubaldo would have a .248 BABIP to end the season. but i do think with that in the books he could end around .260 or so if he’s as good (and lucky) in the second half. and i was wondering what the record was – has anyone ever done it, or is it just entirely not possible, like hitting .400?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
My point of view has nothing to do with Wainwright
My point of view is that Jimenez is not pitching nearly as well as his ERA and there is a reluctance even in the saber community to admit that because Ubaldo throws hard and is a good story.
You are abusing statistics by quoting single season BABIP as if it means anything and not backing up any of your claims.
Ubaldo Jimenez has improved greatly this year, but the improvements haven’t come in an ability to strike out more batters or walk fewer batters, but rather to allow a lower BABIP? The stat that is more influenced by luck than anything else in baseball? For which the range is the narrowest? I don’t but it.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 19, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
well, he had a rough outing tonite
sort of. he had lapses again, and i have to admit i haven’t seen those from waino but in a few games struggling early on. right now i’d have to give the nod to waino.
but the guy has improved a lot. i think you are looking at it with blinders a bit, stuck on certain numbers. if you watch him pitch, and have watched him since his first big league pitch, and followed him throughout, you would notice the improvement. even in his physique he is visibly becoming a beast, and he has not reached his peak – far from it. numbers don’t always tell the whole story, vep, and you should know that. ubaldo is very good now, but in a couple years he will be a beast. compare him age-to-age with other pitchers, consider his work ethic…look, everyone is also saying that jay projects to be as valuable as craig. well, i don’t buy that either, because i consider craig an excellent hitter, always have, and didn’t understand those saying he didn’t walk enough so he must chase and not have a good eye – if you watched the guy you could see how selective he was, but by just looking at the numbers you might not know that. i remember posting this winter about what a selective and fine hitter craig was, and how freeze would be fine, a combo of reitz and zeile. projections may not have shown that, but, time will tell, i think i was right. and that was from watching them – i never once looked at their numbers or projections. i had this same debate on here about uzr last year, because i didn’t buy certain of the numbers, and the attitude was “oh, because what you see disagrees with uzr, then uzr is wrong”, said in a snarky way, and now it is ok i guess to question uzr, but back when i did it was still verboten. i’m just giving my opinion of things, as you are, and having a discourse. i will readily admit when i am wrong, and have. but i don’t believe everything i read in the newspaper, or on the internet. i trust what i see to a certain extent, and that extent is when i am convinced otherwise. i have been convinced otherwise on many things on many occasions here, but until i am…i guess i’m not convinced.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
The point is your opinion is going against mountains of evidence
If you look at the stats which pitchers have the most control over: K/9, BB/9 and GB%, Ubaldo is the exact same pitcher as he was last year.
If you look at the stats that pitchers have very little control over: BABIP, Strand Rate, HR/FB, Ubaldo is way better this year.
You are arguing that is because Ubaldo has worked on only improving those skills, but that is fallacious for two reasons:
1) If he really did work on getting weaker contact, that would either show up in his K rate or his BB rate. You get weaker contact by either having better command, or better stuff, and both of those things will show up in peripheral stats. BABIP is highly correlated with strikeouts and probably walks too, so the fact that his strikeouts and walks haven’t changed implies that his BABIP skill has changed.
2) Even if Ubaldo was able to improve his BABIP skills that would not be reflected in his actual BABIP because BABIP is incredibly influenced by luck. So you can’t just use this years BABIP as a proxy for what Ubaldo’s new and improved BABIP skills would portend. Because of that, it’s incredibly unlikely that Ubaldo’s BABIP skill has allowed him to have a .248 BABIP without luck, because nobody in modern era (including relievers with better stuff and command than Jimenez) have been able to maintain such a low BABIP.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 20, 2010 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions
i'll go with the exceptions that prove the rule
i don’t think you are arguing that he isn’t a much better pitcher this year than last, or last year than the previous, because that is granted, and i don’t think anyone would dispute that, or that he will probably even be better next year – that is his trajectory. so whether he is lucky or not this year does not disprove the fact that he is a better pitcher now. and this would be the consensus opinion in baseball circles.
btw, what is the lowest BABIP for a pitcher for a season?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
the exceptions that prove the rule
that’s just a cliche that doesn’t mean anything. exceptions don’t prove rules. that’s just something people say when they have no explanation
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
and, yes,
that’s exactly what he’s arguing. that’s what i’m arguing. he’s the same pitcher that he was last year, he’s just getting different results. he may well be a better pitcher next year, but this year, he’s doing the same thing as last year and getting different results
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
then you haven't watched his starts
both years. if you have, and you still say that, then you are a terrible judge of talent/performance. what is your evaluation, may i ask, of ubaldo’s progression as a pitcher, based on your personal observation. is there anything you have seen that supports your statement?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I am arguing that he hasn't been a much better pitcher this year than last!
I’m not sure how you could read my post and not get that.
The lowest BABIP for a season with > 200 IP since 1990 is .229 by Kurt Schilling. That does not mean that Kurt Schilling had that much skill, it means he got lucky, Kurt Schilling’s career BABIP is .304.
The lowest BABIP for a career since 1990 is .230 for Troy Percival, a reliever. The lowest career BABIP for a starter is around .250, and even that number needs to be regressed heavily.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 20, 2010 3:39 AM EDT up reply actions
ok, so it is doable
that’s all i wondered. if schilling can do it, ubaldo can. call it luck if you will, but you said it cannot happen. i guess you were not speaking in the absolute, but just probability, like saying someone can’t hit .400 for the season, which you would be correct on almost every time. but it can happen. it is not impossible.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Right, but that doesn't mean it's reflective of skill
You seem to be arguing that Ubaldo has been able to carry a sub .250 BABIP because he is good, not lucky.
Actually, after his last start (the 4th time in 5 that he’s gotten hit hard) his BABIP isn’t even that low.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 20, 2010 4:31 AM EDT up reply actions
well, it will be anyone's guess
whether it is luck or skill. there is no one on earth that can make that distinction. schill doing it one year and not others has nothing to do with whether or not he was that good that year. joe torre was mvp one year – he was just really good that year.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
It's overwhelmingly likely that it is luck
by vivaelpujols on Jul 20, 2010 5:00 AM EDT up reply actions
it's overwhelmingly likely
it’s a combo of luck and skill, with the more outrageous it is, the greater degree of luck.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Of course
I’ve said before I could readily believe that Ubaldo could sustain a BABIP of around .290, at most .280. Over a full season that’s a difference of around 7 to 14 fewer hits which is about 5 to 10 runs. That would lower his xFIP by ..25 to .5 runs. He also will get more double plays than average, and maybe allow fewer home runs on fly balls so let’s lower his xFIP by another .5 runs for that.
So the absolute maximum I could see him legimately outperforming his xFIP would by by 1 run per 9, and that’s a huge stretch as few else in the game have been able to do that for an extended period of time.
Currently his ERA is 1.32 points lower than his xFIP, and that’s only because he’s given up a ton of runs recently (22 runs in his last 5 starts). So maybe now he’s only getting a little lucky.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 20, 2010 6:09 AM EDT up reply actions
he is walking fewer batters in general
but he had a few high-walk games that obscure that fact.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Say what you wants about cardball
but dude LOVES him some Ubaldo. You’ve got to respect that sort of dedication.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 19, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
that's how it goes
pitchers don’t walk exaclty 2.49 batters per 9. sometimes they walk more, sometimes less. that’s how you get the rate. you can’t say he’s walking fewer batters because, well, he’s not
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
ok, i'll look it up
but i thought he was walking slightly less. i also think he’s a few years younger than waino, but could be wrong. i can look that up too. just saying, with his upward trajectory, dude will be a beast when he hits his prime.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Ubaldo
I don’t especially have a horse in this race, and I don’t think Ubaldo’s peripheral numbers really support the idea that he’s pitching way better this year (same GB%, same K%, same BB% etc.).
BUT – here’s the thing:
He’s not (as his K rate suggests) generating more swinging strikes.
However, he IS throwing more first strikes, leading to pitchers’ counts (58%, as opposed to 55% last year).
More importantly, perhaps, he’s getting MORE out-of-zone swings (28.2%, previous career rate of under 24%) and hitters are looking at FAR more pitches IN the zone (zone-swing % of 59% against a career rate of about 65%).
The rate at which batters are making contact with him is basically unchanged. However, if they’re swinging at MORE out of the zone and LESS in the zone, surely that contact is going to be much weaker in general? This would be supported by his 13% line drive rate, which is exceptionally low.
Ubaldo Jimenez isn’t as good as his ERA and W/L record would suggest this year. His stuff doesn’t seem to have got any better. He is due for some regression, certainly. But I wonder if there’s not some evidence in these numbers to suggest a better approach, a better idea of when to throw certain pitches, and how to get hitters out. Hard to tell without HitFX, but it certainly seems to me that his swing/location and LD% numbers suggest he’s inducing weaker contact than he previously has.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 20, 2010 6:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Of course
his anomalous swing percentages might be luck/noise too, and history would probably suggest that they likely are, at least partially. If he’s faced a lot more bad/impatient hitters than you’d expect in an average season, or he’s simply (by random variation) faced a lot of guys who’ve taken bad at-bats for some reason or other.
So, no hard evidence that this is something HE’S doing, but it’s certainly happened, and I think it’s worth more interest than just dismissing out of hand.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 20, 2010 6:18 AM EDT up reply actions
FWI
O-Swing% is higher across the league by about 4 points. I would guess it’s because BIS changed the way they calculate the stat.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/blog_article/is-the-bis-data-right/
So Ubaldo’s rise in that is not significant at all. That same problem would also explain the Z-Swing which is calculated using the same zone estimates.
Furthermore, Ubaldo’s LD% according to GameDay classifications is much higher at 18%. LD% isn’t exaclyt the most relieable stat.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jimenub01-pitch.shtml#pitching_ratio
by vivaelpujols on Jul 20, 2010 6:31 AM EDT up reply actions
7th.
Cahill, Hudson, Moyer, Neimann, Latos, Arroyo ahead (below?) of him.
Stuff doesn’t really determine BABIP much, though it does a little bit. There’s no real way to deny that he’s be incredibly lucky with balls in play, and combined with his higher-than-we’d like walk rate, that serves to keep his ERA lower than how he’s actually pitched. Eventually, he’ll face the Aaron Miles’ of the world, and dinky dinks will drop in consecutively, and that BABIP will act more like the league average.
It’s just part of the game. I do think he’ll have something closer to .280 BABIP than .300, but… .250 or so isn’t going to happen.
funny hudson is on that list
ubaldo to me is hudson on steroids. both are groundball machines, but you would think their BABIP would be a bit higher because grounders go for more hits than flies. i guess they just get some weak-ass grounders and avoid the dingers.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Ubaldo is a slightly above average ground ball pitcher
About as good as Wainwright and worse than Hawksworth.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 20, 2010 3:43 AM EDT up reply actions
ubaldo might have a new category
other than groundball or flyball, how about weakball?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Yes, Ubaldo Jimenez is the only pitcher to induce weak contact
I guess Greg Maddux and his career .289 BABIP should have gotten the memo.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 20, 2010 4:32 AM EDT up reply actions
maddux is not exactly in ubaldo's class
when it comes to stuff, though. maddux also got about 5 inches off the plate. give that to ubaldo and forget the walks, the hits, but rack up the k’s.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Maddux is the poster child for inducing weak contact on balls in play
And there is zero evidence that BABIP is in any way correlated with stuff (besides the fact that it is correlated with strikeouts).
by vivaelpujols on Jul 20, 2010 5:01 AM EDT up reply actions
how is that
that BABIP and stuff have no correlation, unless BABIP is pure pure luck?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
BABIP isn't pure luck and it does correlate with stuff
But it’s mostly out of the pitchers control. BABIP has much higher correlations with location and pitch sequencing (things that cause off balance swings). Good stuff tends to be swung on and missed a lot more rather than hit weakly.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 20, 2010 6:13 AM EDT up reply actions
You know I've taken the opposite side of this debate many times before
I agree that BABIP isn’t luck and generally correlates with things that pitchers do well (movement, stuff, location, deception, etc.)
But it’s not to the extent that you think. At most I would estimate it contributes to a spread of around .20 points of BABIP. When a pitcher has a .250 BABIP, it’s because he got lucky.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 20, 2010 6:22 AM EDT up reply actions
i can see all that
fair enough.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Maybe not .300
But realistically, we shouldnt’t expect him to be lower than .290, anything else is just wishcasting.
Besides, his BABIP this season means nothing about his true BABIP skill, so you can’t use that as evidence. Last year his BABIP was right at league average anyway – with the same exact peripherals.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
but if his stuff and how he uses it is better
then he can lower his BABIP with weaker contact.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I understand
But his BABIP this year isn’t reflective of how he is pitching – this is the point I’m trying to get across.
He could very well induce the weakest contact in the game and still have a .350 BABIP, because BABIP is so heavily influenced by luck. The converse is true of course.
Like I said, I think he probably can sustain a lower than average BABIP because of his stuff and movement, but nobody in the modern era has gotten it much lower than .280 (and those guys are mostly knuckleballers) so I highly doubt that Ubaldo can in any way shape or form sustain a .248 BABIP (by the way, just a couple of weeks ago it was .228, which shows how volatile the stat is).
by vivaelpujols on Jul 19, 2010 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions
very surprised that knuckleballers have a greater propensity
to pull off lower BABIP’s.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I thought that too
But then I remembered that HRs are not balls in play
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 19, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
ah, that's a very good point
i’m glad there are smart people to save me from pondering…
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
he is great
take two innings out when tracy screwed up big time with ubaldo sick and this is an all-time great season with era well below 2. you don’t become the cy favorite just on luck.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
sure you do.
he’s got a .248 BABIP, and 82% LOB rate, a 5.4% HR/FB rate, a 51% GB rate all while sportin’ a 3.71 xFIP.
yes, he’s been very good but yes, he’s a PERFECT candidate for regression.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
i thought his BABIP would be lower
the rest doesn’t surprise me, though. he pitches at coors, but still won’t give up a lot of homers just because he’s so hard to square up. doesn’t FIP underrate groundball pitchers like ubaldo in favor of strikeout pitchers? i guess he could strike out a lot more, but probably wise to just get the grounders in coors. imagine him pitching at busch, or petco.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
FIP does not underrate groundball pitchers
HRs is a key component, which groundball pitchers avoid.
Not afraid to nitpick
i thought they valued the k a bit much, hated the bb a bit much
could be thinking of something else.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Well you are wrong
The only thing FIP does is assume league average performance on balls in play. If Ubaldo really does have the ability to limit BABIP, FIP will be underrating him. But it won’t be by that much.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes you do, because luck is incredibly influetial in baseball
Do you think that Livan Hernandez has been one of the best pitchers in baseball this eyar?
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
so all the cy contenders have luck to thank?
fair enough. i mean, you have to be lucky just to stay healthy.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
What?
That had nothing to do with my post.
If you look at the pitchers with the 20 best ERA’s each year, than yes, a large percentage of them will have gotten lucky, a smaller percentage of them will have not had any luck and a smaller percentage of them will have gotten unlucky.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 19, 2010 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions
misread your other post then
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
he asked you a very specific yes or no question
the answer not fitting in your paradigm is not the same as you misreading it
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
wasn't referencing the question
which i think was rhetorical. was talking about the subject line, from which i gathered he was agreeing with my post he replied to. apparently he wasn’t.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
he pitched a couple in the all-star game
and they had worked him a little hard going in to it. take out the couple games at the end when tracy should have pulled him – well, he was actually great in the games till he ran out of gas, so just the last inning of each of those two games – and ubaldo is having one of the all-time great seasons. i think the rocks would like that to continue, so they apparently aren’t going to run him into the ground. makes sense to me.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
but he's a starter
he’s had his four days rest after throwing just two innings in the all star game. i think he would have been okay throwing today.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
ubaldo is having one of the all-time great seasons.
Er. He’s not pitching that well to start calling it all time great. He’s been pretty good this year, one of the top 10 pitchers in baseball, but…hardly the level where you start comparing it against all time seasons.
did you take off the 12 runs or whatever he allowed in two innings?
if not, take a look again, because you clipped that out of context otherwise – sorry, just tired of some folks always doing that, not you.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
So clip off the worst innings of everyone else and see how they stack up to that too
Not afraid to nitpick
great, take off everyone's worst two innings
and i guarantee you ubaldo blows them away. it isn’t his fault tracy left him out there sick in two consecutive games when larussa, for instance, would have pulled him as he did with waino yesterday. that’s about 12 runs off his season total, in two games he otherwise dominated. now look at his era – pretty damn straight. and ubaldo doesn’t pitch at busch.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
And look at his FIP, which is much more under his control than ERA
Not that special.
Not afraid to nitpick
Shh.
Wins and ERA are all that matter when discussing how well a pitcher pitched. Cherry picking specific occasions enhance those two stats even further is approved upon, as well.
really, you think wins and era are that important?
or are you insinuating that i do? or just being a smart ass? FIP? haha, ok. doesn’t fip love the k, and ubaldo is a groundball specialist. anyway, he started the all-star game, looks like he’ll win the cy, that’s a pretty good year.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
FIP also loves the no home runs
and you’re now arguing that the hype means he’s having the best year… seriously? Are you gonna say that Heyward has been better this year than Rasmus just because Heyward was an allstar?
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
no, i actually thought colby should have made it
instead of holliday, based on the full half-season. holliday got hot at the right time though. i don’t really know if heyward should have made it – tough to tell when he’s out injured. wasn’t he voted in though?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
FIP does not love the K any more than it should
It doesn’t have much bias for any type of pitcher.
Not afraid to nitpick
i've seen guys do little scenarios
where pitcher A did this and pitcher B did this and even though pitcher B clearly outperformed pitcher A, pitcher A was liked more by FIP – at least i think it was FIP, but could’ve been another metric.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
It has a slight bias for groundball pitchers due to the double play thing
And it has a bais against guys who are better than average at BABIP skill.
But neither bias is that much. Strikeouts, walks and homers really make up 90% of what a pitcher can do.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
isn't inducing grounders something a pitcher can do?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Actually halladay is best in this case.
I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons
by hazel on Jul 18, 2010 1:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
His games against Boston and the Yanks come to mind.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
These things happen when you face unfamiliar....
oh, wait.
Hm.
Hmmmm.
I am thinking New York and Boston may have seen before…..JUST MAYBE…..:D
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
he gave up at least 11 or 12 runs
in two innings of two separate games? then manual should be fired too. what did his era come to compared to ubaldo’s?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
the only metric by which his season is one of the all-time greats is pitcher W-L.
and, um, you can probably guess what I think about that…
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
take a look at his numbers without those two innings
could be an all-time great season.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Take a look at (insert good pitcher here) minus (random bad game)
could be an all-time great season.
I’m not denying that most of the “damage” done to Ubaldo was in 1-2 games – but a lot of pitchers have bad games that inflate metrics.
no, we are not talking about a bad game
we are talking about two games that he dominated, one while being sick, the other he had a no-hitter after five or six, but in both he ran out of gas, visibly was done – this has been much discussed. yet tracy left him out there to give up about 12 runs in those two innings. ridiculous. if ubaldo pitched for larussa he would have been rightly pulled way before, like waino yesterday. so as i proposed, take off any pitcher’s two worst innings – doesn’t even have to be the manager’s fault, could be the first inning – and ubaldo is way ahead of the pack.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
he is not a neutral pitcher
why should he have neutral luck. the dude should have damn good luck.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Why?
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 18, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
because of the way you use the word luck
if ubaldo says “i’m going to get the next ten batters to hit weak ground balls”, and he does, this goes down as lucky because BABIP is .000.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
YES EXACTLY
Let’s say Ubaldo allows 1,000 of the weakest dang ground balls you have ever seen.. I can garauntee you that sizeable percentage of those will go for hits because the fielder won’t be able to make the play, or the batter is fast or the umpire makes a bad call, etc.
If Ubaldo allows zero hits on 10 weakly hit ground balls, then yes, he is getting lucky as hell. And Ubaldo doens’t only allow weakly hit ground balls. He allows his share of line drives and well hit ground balls and fly balls too.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 19, 2010 2:05 AM EDT up reply actions
I'll play it your way
Let’s look at his ERA minus his two worst innings – and in both of these, he gave up 8 total runs, not 12 – it drops to 1.63 (without decreasing his innings count, just removing the 8 ER).
Now for Johnson: his ERA is already 1.62. Drop his worst two innings – that is, drop 6 ER – and his ERA drops to 1.20. So there you have it.
Ubaldo is clearly way ahead of the pack.
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
i take it you are looking at the right games
they were back-to-back i’m pretty sure? i like johnson more and more, but i’d put him at two right now. ubaldo just has a little better stuff.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Even with raw "stuff", which doesn't mean much.
I’d take Johnson. When you factor in command of that stuff? It’s not even close.
yeah, according to b-r 4 runs in each. Johnson has given up 3 runs in his 2 worst innings.
Sorry if there’s nothing else I can say, but you have to at least accept that you were wrong about Ubaldo coming out ahead of everyone else after this.
The fact is, Johnson and Jimenez have pitched basically the same amount of innings (Johnson 128; Ubaldo 127) and Johnson has given up 23 ER to Ubaldo’s 31. Although I don’t love ERA, that tells me that during this season, Johnson HAS BEEN BETTER than Ubaldo.
אנא טוני לא יותר ט.א.ס.ס
one game i'm pretty sure he was charged 6 that inning
i’ll have to check. how is marlins stadium, compared to coors? more hitters or pitchers park?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
slightly more of a pitchers park
Look at ESPN park factors (google it)
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2010 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
i wonder if it actually had fans in it
if that would influence anything (mostly kidding, but it’s like hitting in a cavern).
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
you missed on ubaldo
i checked the game logs on b-r also. johnson’s was 3 and 3, but ubaldo was 7 and 4, the game he was sick and the game he had a no-no through 5 or whatever. but yes, johnson would still have the lower era – 1.05 to 1.41 – so i was wrong, although i don’t know if any of those runs were on johnson’s manager for leaving him out there when he knew going in the dude was sick, like tracy did to ubaldo. anyway, i said earlier that johnson is approaching ubaldo on my list – i just hadn’t followed him real seriously until lately, when i’ve been watching his starts. .
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Lord you are just the fucking poster child for stat abuse
by vivaelpujols on Jul 19, 2010 2:25 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
what stat did i abuse?
i was just doing math, although i may have divided wrong because chalk above got 1.2 i think for johnson.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
it was 11, btw, for ubaldo - 7 and 4
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
How is Ubaldo having one of the alltime great seasons?
His ERA is low 2’s, which has certainly been done before in the first half (including by like 8 pitchers this year). His peripherals are mid 3’s which isn’t anything special. The only thing “great” about Jimenez’ first half is his W/L record. Are you going to argue that’s reflective of Ubaldo’s pitching?
by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
was wondering when you were going to chime in on this thread...
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
fair enough.
i just knew you couldn’t stay away from a ubaldo thread.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
short answers.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions
rawr
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions
it's a case of recency bias
he did have an incredible first two months of the season, and it’s human nature to disproportionately emphasize the first and last things they saw a guy do, with the stuff in the middle more fuzzy.
Same thing that has kept Heyward in the ROY conversation, even after sucking for a month and then going on the DL. And if Johnson had his last 9 starts before his first 5 starts, a lot more people would realize how awesome his season has been so far.
I’m still rooting for Jimenez to win 30 games, though, because I think it would be cool.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
yeah, i think ubaldo could actually win 30 (with a little luck)
if the rocks get healthy they could run away with the west, even though it’s a lot better than the central, and in that case ubaldo might not lose a game. the only game he lost this year was a 7IP, 2H, 1R effort that the rocks lost 2-0. i’ve watched every start he’s made, and he was just about as good the last starts as the first, the only difference being two bad innings when his manager hung him out to dry, one of which he had a no-hitter thru 5.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
minus those two innings i mentioned
his era is 1.41. and those innings were on his manager. do you think tony would leave waino out there to give up 7 in an inning if he knew going in that waino was sick? i’d call that being unlucky in having a numbskull manager.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
interesting facts
cards and reds only teams in NL Central with winning records. behind the cards, no team is less than 9 games back (milwaukee, pittsburgh furthest back – 19 games)
houston and pittsburgh are really, really, really bad
chicago isn’t that much better and the brewers are just average. thus is life in the nl central.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Somewhat OT
is there a way to disable signatures? I don’t care about avatars and such, just would like a way to disable sigs.
Only game MLB Extra Innings not carrying today is ours...
They don’t wanna watch a Soup/Padilla matchup with no Pujols?
Interesting…
i noticed that too
f’n EI. now i gotta find a stream just to watch the damn game – if i have the guts to.
/Quietly enjoys his MLB.TV
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
dodgers lineup
Furcal SS, Carroll 3B, Ethier RF, Kemp CF, DeWitt 2B, Belliard 1B, Paul LF, Ellis C, Padilla P
Might be a good day to work on my paper
while keeping tabs on this thread for the game. Doesn’t look like it’ll be a fun one to watch.
oh snap, reverse belair'd
i enjoy the weekly looks at individual players
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
oh, man
catcher market just got richer
molina designated for assignment
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
god i hate jeff brantley
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 1:36 PM EDT reply actions
A lot of 2pm starts today.
Haven’t really seen much of that, is there a reason behind it?
Usually a lot of day games on Sunday
and many of the west coast teams are on the road.
I'm out of champagna. How about some 7-Up and Mad Dog 20/20?
by The Continental on Jul 18, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah...
but day games are usually 1 or 4, aren’t they? Just found the 2pm start times to be quite odd. Times EST.
Usually 1 PM local time
So I guess alot of games played in CDT
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 18, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
There's only 3 games today going at 2:00 EST
The games are at KC, MIN, and STL.
'Why are you 40 with highlights?' - Scott Rolen during interview with Kevin Millar
Oh
I didn’t check, I just took Voxx’s word for it
"Very accomplished bunter" - Rick Horton about Aaron Miles
by jd is legend on Jul 18, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
@joker24
I saw you were commenting over in a BloodyElbow thread. I should warn you that the intelligence level is several degrees lower than it is here. I still like the site overall but there’s a lot of chaff in their threads.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
Ha yeah it's ridiculous
Jon Jones can put on 25 pounds of muscle at age 22 and get faster and more explosive because Ben Johnson did steroids what? MMA fans tend to be such meatheads, makes betting so easy—-the underrating of Rashad is prime example of how they don’t begin to recognize athleticism, Rua coming off of knee surgery at -200 is a joke.
Not afraid to nitpick
Jon Jones = Lebron
C’mon if we can’t compare an athlete in completely different sports with different requirements to a player who has likely already put himself in the HOF, then how can we compare anything?
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
Not to mention a JUCO wrestler vs. maybe the most explosive athlete on the planet
Not afraid to nitpick
The other problem re: meatheads
is the lack of an objective measure/statistic to sort out the blatantly stupid. Too much subjectivity allowed.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
Wins are a good stat. Very objective.
Oh….we aren’t talking baseball, are we?
I’ll just go over here.
duh.
everything’s ago when azru is in the house. he takes care of us.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 18, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope we find a way
…to keep Felipe Lopez after this season. That is all.

by 



















