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Cardinals Trade Value 2010



As he did last season, Dave Cameron is doing a MLB Trade Value Series over at Fangraphs. And, just like last season, I am going to do a Cardinals version.  As I look back at my top 10 from last year, I find that there has been some attrition, both due to trades(Goodbye Walrus) and poor performance(Hellow Daryl Jones). Quick Recap of what I'm trying to do here, using Cameron's explanation from last year's intro:

Essentially, the idea is to take all the information that goes into encapsulating a player’s value to an organization - his present skills, his future potential, how long he’s under club control, the expected cost of paying him over that time, and the risks involved with projecting his future performances - and figure out which players currently have the most trade value in baseball.
 

As with last year, this is not a prospect list, and no injured players, since they will be hurt come the trade deadline(Daniel Descalso) are included. The higher a player is on the list(1 being highest), the more value he would bring bag in a hypothtical trade. Untouchable players are denoted with an asterisk. Oh, and not trade clauses are stupid, so i discount them entirely(I was gonna put Holliday somewhere on this list, but his contract really makes him untradeable).

My top 3 from last season has not changed.

1. Albert Pujols--Even in a "down-year" he's still a top 5 offensive player. Add to that his defensive abilities, and, well, you have a player that will go down in baseball history as one of the best ever. Only 30 years old, Pujols could conceivably continue to play at a superstar for the next 5-6 years. As I said last year, "if we traded him this year, we would expect the other team's entire farm system in return, plus the hottest women(or men for those ladies reading) in the team's respective city." While this has not really changed, I did not mark him as untouchable simply because if the Cardinals know for a fact that won't be able to re-sign him, they should making him available, just to see what they can get back in return.

2. Colby Rasmus*--He was number 2 on my list last year, that was before he figured out the major leagues. He has come into this year showing much better plate discipline, the ability to hit lefties, and above average power. In fact, offensively, he is the best centerfielder in MLB. Even though his UZR stats paint him as having a bad year defensively in centerfield, most would agree he is a + defender(though his arm has been very disappointing this season). Rasmus will be only 24 at the end of this season and is under team control for 4 more seasons. All of this adds up to one incredible value. He is probably the first player other teams ask for when the Cardinals inquire about a big-time player, and hopefully he is the first person Mo and Company say no about.

3. Adam Wainwright*--Aces are hard to come by, and for the past 2 and a half season, Waino has been a definite ace. He has gotten better every season, and were it not for the media's love for Tim Lincecum, he probably would already have a Cy Young under his belt. His contract is yummy from the organization's stand point: $4.65M this year, $6.5M next season, and two club options in '12 and '13 at $9M and $12M, respectively. That is well below market value for a true ace. He is 28, so he is only just now entering his prime. He would bring back a healthy haul in terms of value. Still, the Cardinals should not consider trading him, unless they suck in 2012 or 2013,

4. Shelby Miller--Teams value young pitchers who project to be aces above all else when they bargaining during a potential trade. After Rasmus, Miller is probably the guy other teams are asking about most when Mo calls. 97mph with a put-away curve and good control does not come around everyday. Still, he has not yet pitched above Low A ball, though his impressive stats(12.9 K/9, 72:18 K:BB ration) there suggest he may be ready for High A any day now. He's not untouchable, but its pretty close.

5. Jaime Garcia*--LH top half of the rotation pitchers are a rare commodity, and the Cardinals just happen to have one. He's lower than Miller because of his injury history. Maybe I am counting that against him too much, but I'm afraid of guys that have had major arm surgery before they turn 25. Still, Garcia has mixed impressive groundball rates with moderate strikeout rates. He could stand to walk a few less batters, but this is his first year starting in the majors, so we can't expect perfection. He'll be under team control for 4 more seasons(still not sure why he was accruing service time while he was on the DL for Tommy John surgery) which means, assuming he keeps even close to his current level of production up, he'll be an amazing value for most of the next half decade. Right now, I think he's untouchable due to his cheapness and goodness(yay word usage skills!!), and due to the lack of top end starting talent in the upper levels of our minor league system. We are gonna need relatively cheap pitchers to fill out the rotation for the next few years if we want to re-sign Pujols.

6. Ryan Ludwick--I really thought he would be a free agent after this season, but according to Cot's Baseball Contracts, he'll be under team control for another season after this year. When healthy, he puts up good numbers offensively and plays really good defense in RF. Being under team control for one more year helps his value, and since he only makes 5.45M this year, you'd think his salary for next season will be under 8M. He'll probably exceed that figure in terms of WAR. He's no spring chicken, but a team looking for offensive help would offer something good in return.

7. Eduardo Sanchez--If you have been following the Cardinals transactions over the past couple of seasons, you might think that RH relief pitchers are a dime a dozen. In the past year and a half, we have traded away Mark Worrell(ass), Luke Gregerson(where did he come from), Chris Perez(erratic), and Jess Todd(short). In the past 2 and a half seasons, we have introduced Kyle McClellanJason Motte, Mitchell Boggs, and Fernando Salas to the major leagues. We have Josh Kinney, Fransisco Samuel, Matthew Scherer, Pete Parise and Mike MacDougal in AAA. We also have a guy who throws 97, has a wipeout slider, and possesses good command and control in Eduardo Sanchez, who is most assuredly not a dime a dozen. His stats in the minors are very solid and he projects to be a closer or a shutdown set-up man in the bigs, and other teams value that type of player. He'll be cheap for at least 3 years once he gets to St. Louis. Basically, he is the best a RH relief pitcher with no major league experience can be in terms of trade value.

8. Jon Jay--Maybe I am putting too much stock into current performance, but I think teams would quickly ask for Jay in trade negotiations. When drafted, some scouts said Jay could someday win a batting title. While, that may be a slight overstatement, I do think he could easily hit .300 in the big leagues, with an OBP above .350, all while playing good defense at all 3 outfield positions(his bat plays best in center). He'll be under team control for 6 years after this season.

9. Bryan Anderson--Catchers already have inherent value just due to their position. Add to that the fact that Anderson is putting up pretty good numbers in AAA this season with a 276/345/449 line. He's shown better power so far this year than over the past couple seasons. He's blocked in St. Louis, since LaRussa refuses to keep good players on his bench. 6 seasons of team control make him even more valuable. Did I mention he bats left-handed, and that his defense is getting better reviews this season?

10. Mitchell Boggs--Power arm with incredible FB movement and a slider that, when on, is pretty nasty. He has little to no control, but, if he can somehow harness that, watch out. Teams salivate of guys who have stuff like this, so he could be a nice secondary piece in a trade. 5 more season of team control after this year make him a pretty nice commodity.

Honorable mention: Allen Craig, Jason Motte(just one pitch hurts him in my opinion), Tyler Greene, Lance Lynn

I'm sure I'm forgetting someone who should be on here. Add your suggestions in comments or just quibble with my order.

Comment 52 comments  |  2 recs  | 

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I forgot Yadi

Last year i forgot ludwick, this year i forgot Yadi…ugh

Yes, he would probably slot in at 8(his down year offensively certainly hurts his trade value)

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME

by VolsnCards5 on Jul 14, 2010 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think you could argue that Colby and Waino are both more valuable to the team,

since both are on longer, team-friendly deals. Also, if Jaime Garcia is really a four win pitcher, he is also probably more valuable than Pujols because he has even less service time than Colby.

I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons

by hazel on Jul 14, 2010 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Garcia will be a Super Two

this offseason while Colby isn’t eligible for arbitration until after the 2011 season. Garcia received service time while he was recovering from surgery because he was injured while on the 25 man roster. Per Cot’s Jaime started the season with 1 yr 147 days service time.

by ubeddie on Jul 14, 2010 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

I still think Pujols would bring more value back than Rasmus or Waino

Pujols would bring back at least 2 premium prospects, plus a couple of other good players…over all, I think they would bring more WAR to the organization than whoever we would get for Waino or Rasmus…I could be wrong, but that was my line of thinking

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME

by VolsnCards5 on Jul 14, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

i like this list.

I don’t think we will make a deal. But if we did I could see Anderson, Craig/Jay, and Ryan being dealt for a starting pitcher. Leaving T. Greene to pick up more playing time. And skip to play a utility role.

by rumors on Jul 14, 2010 2:22 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Hm....

Skip could be a utility…. 2nd baseman?

"I got to get Dr. Freeze off my twig right now."-Nyjer Morgan

by flipthebird15 on Jul 14, 2010 2:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

utility 2nd/OF

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME

by VolsnCards5 on Jul 14, 2010 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

yes

We have lopez for for 2nd/SS/3rd. So lopez could be our starter and if we need a lefty bat late in a game skip comes in for anyone and stays in the game at an outfield position or 2nd and lopez slides over. Greene can do anything that Ryan can do.

by rumors on Jul 14, 2010 9:49 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I think Motte has got to be higher than Boggs at this point.
  • I’m not all that sure that Salas shouldn’t also be on a list that includes Sanchez and Boggs.
  • Yadi is in the top 7 even though he’s having a bad year at the plate. I would probably put him ahead of Ludwick because it’s so hard to find good catchers and then sign them to team friendly deals as well.
  • By the standards you’re using, Colby, Shelby, Adam, and Jaime all have more value than Pujols. If you were factoring in “asses in the seats” then Albert’s probably #1. I also think that in terms of trade value, Pujols has much less than someone like Miller or Rasmus does. You’re not likely to get a haul of prospects for him, so in terms of trade value he’s quite a ways down the list.

I don’t think you’re missing anyone besides Molina and Salas, and I agree with everyone that’s on the list currently. I guess I would also give an “honorable mention” to both Blake Hawksworth and Adam Ottavino.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 14, 2010 5:05 PM EDT reply actions  

You really think Albert has less trade value than Shelby or Colby?

Maybe I’m misinterpreting something here, but I think if you were to go to another GM and tell him you’d give him Albert Pujols straight up for most players in baseball, he’d accept before you could finish your sentence. If you went up to the same GM, and said I’d give you Shelby Miller for the same player X, he’d walk away if you weren’t ready to sweeten the pot further.

He hit it good. He hit it good.

by Jack618 on Jul 14, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Yes, I do, if you're going by the parameters set in the blockquoted paragraph:
  1. Present Skills: Pujols leads in this category, but Rasmus is the best offensive CF in the game and Garcia is the best pitcher not on the all-star team.
  2. Future Potential: Considering that Pujols is 30, while WW is 28 and the rest of those guys are under 25, I’d say they each have more future potential than Pujols does, as well as…..
  3. Club Control: The Cardinals have only one more sure year of Albert Pujols, but have 4 more years of Rasmus and Garcia, 3 more years of WW, and 6 full years from Miller. That makes them more valuable because they can’t leave and sign somewhere else, and…..
  4. Expected Cost: ….they’re all way, WAY cheaper for their remaining cost controlled years than Pujols is likely to be if signed long term. In fact, if he gets his big extension, you’d probably be paying less for all four of those guys than you would be for Albert in 2011, 2012, and 2013.
  5. Risks Projecting Future: Albert has an elbow issue that may or may not blow up and cost him significant time away from the field. Every player has injury issues, but older players have more of them, and older players who make a shitload of money and have injury issues can submarine a franchise significantly if they can’t get on the field.

Lemme ask you a question: Why is Matt Holliday NOT on this list if Albert Pujols IS on this list? Pujols makes just a shade under what Holliday makes right now and will be looking for a long term extension paying him more than just about every other player in the game annually.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 14, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Miller, and to some extent Garcia, also have way more risk than Pujols

Say we traded Pujols away right now. The team acquiring him would get 3-4 WAR the rest of the way this year and then 6-9 WAR next year. And their really is no reason why we shouldn’t expect him to hit those numbers. Even this year, by far the worst of his career, he’s on pace for well over 6 WAR.

Shelby on the other hand, as a pitching prospect in the low minors, has such a huge chance of busting that he can’t be seen as a very valuable commodity. TINSTAAP has been pretty well proven by the sabermetric community – top pitching prospects aren’t as valuable as top hitting prospects, and the gap between A and B pitching prospects isn’t as large as the gap between A and B hitting prospects. So Pujols is definitely more valuable a commodity than Miller I would say.

Garcia has a similar situation to Miller, although he’s already proven he can pitch in the majors, so he has less risk. But he still has a lot of risk due to injury, and his peak isn’t really that great (I’d say 200 IP, 3.50 xFIP is the best we could ever expect from him). I would almost never trade a star hitter for a pitcher.

With Wainwright it’s different because he is, IMO, one of the top 5 starters in baseball and has squeaky clean mechanics and injury history (broken finger not withstanding). He also won’t decline much as he doens’t rely on velocity at all. Rasmus obviously has more value than Pujols because he has 4 1/2 more years of team control, compared to Pujols 1 1/2, and reasonably projects to average around 4 WAR per year during that span.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 14, 2010 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

Pujols, if traded to a contending team, will pretty much bring back ANY prospect in baseball IMO, probably with the exception of Harper and Strasburg. He’ll certainly bring back anyone outside the top 5 or so, and probably 2 or more guys outside the top 20.

Shelby, on the other hand, is probably in the top 30 or 40 prospects in baseball, so pretty much by definition he’s less valuable.

I guess Albert’s big value lies in the fact that something like 75% of teams in baseball (basically, more or less everyone outside of Toronto and Baltimore) could trade for him and instantly become a contender in 2011.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 19, 2010 5:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

FWIW

There’s maybe 5 teams in all of baseball that would be interested in trading young talent for Albert Pujols.

Just about every team in the league would listen if you were shopping those other guys, so that has to give them more value.

If I went up to a GM and told him I’d give him Shelby Miller, he’d sit down and try to figure out how to work a deal with me. We could get Dan Uggla for Shelby Miller right now, straight up — easily. Are we going to get another team’s Shelby Miller, plus another 3 prospects for Albert Pujols? I highly doubt it.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 14, 2010 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

i just think if we traded Pujols to the Mets, for instance

we would expect, at a minimum, Ike Davis, Mejia, and one of Martinez or Flores(and i think the mets would really consider it)….thats at least 16 years of team control on players who are likely to be above average players….we could not get that in return for rasmus, in my opinion

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME

by VolsnCards5 on Jul 14, 2010 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

So that's one team

We could deal him to the Yankees and expect to get Montero and Phil Hughes in return probably.

But you’re limited in trading partners. Nearly every team in the bigs would be willing to deal for Rasmus — the difference is that we’d be stupid to trade him because he’s a 4 WAR player at the least going forward and possibly a 6+ WAR player if he really puts it all together. He has far more value to us than we could bring back in return.

If you’re going by value returned in trade, Pujols is probably #1 — but I’m confused as to what the exercise is here in that case. Is it the value of a player to their organization? Or is it the value that the player would return if traded? Your block quote says one thing, and the text underneath says another.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 15, 2010 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

maybe you are reading it wrong

i think its pretty clear in the intro that i mean value brought back in a trade:

figure out which players currently have the most trade value in baseball.
The higher a player is on the list(1 being highest), the more value he would bring bag in a hypothtical trade.

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME

by VolsnCards5 on Jul 15, 2010 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

But then there's this, from the block-quoted portion:
the idea is to take all the information that goes into encapsulating a player’s value to an organization

I think that those are two distinctly different things. The value to one’s organization is NOT the same as the value they would bring back in trade.

Yadier Molina is far more valuable to the Cardinal organization than what his trade value would be on the open market, because our organization values catcher defense more than most do.

I would say that Albert Pujols has far more value to our organization than he would bring back in trade, because we’d be an 80 win team without him and we can’t possibly get enough back in one trade to offset that loss of value.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 16, 2010 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

but the other team has to take into account a player's value to his current team

when making an offer for that player

regardless…the point of this exercise was to come up with the ten players that would bring the most value back in a trade

sorry for any confusion

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME

by VolsnCards5 on Jul 16, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

We could deal him to the Yankees and expect to get Montero and Phil Hughes in return probably.

Yes. And that haul is more valuable than Shelby Miller. Ergo, Albert Pujols is more valuable than Shelby Miller.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 19, 2010 5:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Probably

But not for certain, and that’s certainly NOT returning equal value to our franchise over the next 4-6 years either.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 19, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

..
You’re not likely to get a haul of prospects for him, so in terms of trade value he’s quite a ways down the list.

Oh I don’t think this is true at all. Just look at the recent Cliff Lee trade – the Mariner’s got a major league ready first baseman under team control for 6 years who was one of the top prospects in baseball prior to the season and put up great K:BB numbers in his ML stint, as well as two decent pitching prospects for 1/2 a year of Cliff Lee. For a more comparable situation to Pujols, look at the Mark Texeira trade.

If the Cardinals put 1 1/2 years of Pujols on the market, I have to think it would bring back the biggest haul ever.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 15, 2010 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

Were we to trade Albert today, we would bring back the biggest haul in the history of trades, or it would be deemed a bad trade from our perspective. Can you imagine what the red sox would give up to grab Pujols?

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME

by VolsnCards5 on Jul 15, 2010 7:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

I actually don't think this is the case

For a couple of reasons:

  1. He doesn’t play a premium position. Teams would be much more likely to give up a haul for Hanley Ramirez or Joe Mauer (before his huge contract extension) than for Albert Pujols. What team that’s currently contending doesn’t already have a productive player at 1B? Cliff Lee was a huge marginal upgrade over the starter he was replacing in Texas, and that was a intra-division trade, so the price was higher than the normal market I’d imagine.
  2. You never get back equal trade for superstar players. You just don’t. Matt Holliday was the best bat on the market last year, and we gave up one A prospect, a B prospect, and a nobody to get him. Teixeira cost a similar amount (Salty, Andrus), and maybe a little bit more, but it’s hard to put Salty up too high on that trade when the team moving him already had McCann, who was 22 and a future star player at the time. Atlanta also got NOTHING for him when they dealt him to the Angels.
  3. You have limited trading partners. They have to have some type of black hole at 1B or a guy they can move to DH. That eliminates probably 10 teams. They have to have a top 10 farm system so you can get back some players that make the move worth doing. Now you’re down to 10 teams. They have to be contending — now you’re down to 4 or 5 teams.
Can you imagine what the red sox would give up to grab Pujols?

It would have to be no less than Buchholz and Pedroia. They don’t have a single top 50 prospect in their farm system. I don’t see them trading those two guys for Pujols.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 15, 2010 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Tex is the best comparable situation to Pujols right now

The Ranger’s got back Saltalamacchiato, Andrus, Neftali Feliz and two other pitching prospects. Huge haul, incredible amount of talent and value there. And Pujols is at least 2 wins better than Tex was when he was dealt.

Matt Holliday – about a 5-6 win player, and you get him for a half a season. An A hitting prospect plus a decent pitching prospect (and filler in the other guy who I forgot already). And Pujols is again at least 2 wins better than Holliday was AND would be signed for a whole other year.

There has never been a player like Pujols available on the trading block – especially with a year and a half left on his contract. The haul would be huge.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 15, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

this is right on mark.

But idk how many teams that would be in the market for pujols would even have what it takes to get him. The rays maybe. But we would have to eat the rest of his contract due to their lack of funds. And the angels and mets could probably put together that kind of package. But I don’t think it really makes any sense to trade him. But for conversations sake. Who would you trade him for?

by rumors on Jul 15, 2010 3:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Like I said -- perfect player, perfect situation

The Braves had Escobar as their SS of the future at the time (or so they thought), McCann as their C of the future at the time, and a farm system LOADED with pitching talent. They could afford to give up a lot of talent to make a postseason run without sacrificing the overall efficacy and depth of their farm system and they had a huge hole at 1B with no heir apparent. That’s like the perfect storm of all baseball trades. If you go back 20 years, you’re probably not finding a similar situation anywhere in the league.

Looking at today, I don’t see a contending team with a hole at 1B currently that also have the talent to actually make a deal work (maybe the Rangers, but they just gave up a huge haul for Lee). I just don’t see a market for him like there was for Teixeira at the time of that deal.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 16, 2010 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Don't forget that every AL team has a DH slot

there are a lot of creative ways to get a guy like Albert into a team. You’re right that his value is lessened by the fact that the Yanks and Sox don’t have clear spots to put him in, but they could both still find a place for his bat. Yanks acquire him and DH either Tex or Albert, they have the best offense of all time and are pretty much a lock to win back-to-back world titles. RedSox acquire him going into next season (or, say, if they get an injury this year) and they move Youk to 3B, play Albert at 1B and STILL have a hole at DH, providing they don’t pick up Ortiz’s option.

And also, re: Teixeira, he had half a year left, and was nowhere near as good a player as albert when traded (he was, at best, about a 4 WAR player when traded, although he has improved since. Albert is worth pretty much DOUBLE that). Albert has a year-and-a-half left.

I agree that Colby and arguably Waino are worth more than Albert, but I really think that (as suggested above), Albert would bring back a HUGE package of value if we put him on the block, even if we couldn’t find a trade partner until the end of the year. He’s unquestionably more valuable than Shelby Miller in every respect.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 19, 2010 5:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

my only beef is jon jay

you’re telling me jon jay is the 8th most tradeable guy on the cards? i don’t know if that sounds reasonable to you, but that sounds really… uhh… misplaced to me

idk i almost think freese, molina, and the whole bullpen besides franklin…. i don’t think jay has hardly any trading value at all, neither does bryan anderson

i think you missed on freese though, while his declining wOBA is a concern, i highly doubt his power will be this poor, and better power would pretty much solve all with him…. not to mention 5 years of cost control

Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog

by stlcardsfan4 on Jul 15, 2010 3:30 AM EDT reply actions  

I don't get all the Jay love here either...

He’s been freakishly lucky. 434 BABIP!!!

He doesn’t walk. He and Aaron Miles are tied with two walks.

He swings at pitches outside the strike zone. 35%

Basically he’s another Stavinoha, but with better defense.

by DiscoJer on Jul 15, 2010 6:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Jay had pretty good walk rates in the minors

Give him time, right now, he has to swing to stay up

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME

by VolsnCards5 on Jul 15, 2010 7:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

So far,

I like what I see of John Jay. He might turn out to be a bust (like J-Rod) but so far I think he looks promising. The fact that he & Miles are tied in walks is meaningless. Jay has the potential to put it out of the park. Compare that to Miles. Jay has more speed then either Miles or Stav.
I have to see him play more before I can shoot him down. So far, I like him.

Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 15, 2010 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wha????
Basically he’s another Stavinoha, but with better defense.

I’m mystified by this quote: How can he be “another Stavinoha” when they have next to nothing in common (hit from different sides of the plate, higher walk rate in the minors, etc.), but with “better defense”, which would make him unlike Stavinoha at all?

He’s nothing like Stavinoha. He’s a legit prospect who can play all three outfield positions. He’s a legit CF prospect, imo.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 15, 2010 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

I believe a team trading with the Cardinals would be thrilled to have Jay or Anderson as part of the package

I’m not saying either are the headliner in a trade, but past Miller, which of our prospects would really be a ‘headliner?’ Not many, if any. Jay plays above average defense in center. His MLE show a guy who will hit .280/.330/.414…while not great numbers, those are solid numbers for a slick fielding center-fielder. Add to that the fact that most scouts think he can be a .300+ hitter, and you’ve got a good package

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME

by VolsnCards5 on Jul 15, 2010 7:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

i'm not sure freese will be back by the trade deadline

so i left him off this list(my injury clause)

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME

by VolsnCards5 on Jul 15, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Miles should be part of any trade the Cardinals make.

Don’t make the deal if the other team doesn’t take Miles also.

Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 15, 2010 9:02 AM EDT reply actions  

i think you are joking

but just in case you are not…we’ll never make a trade if we expect the other team to take miles

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME

by VolsnCards5 on Jul 15, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

yea, I'm joking.

But that did happen to Bob Uecker, according to Mike Shannon. Either when Philadelphia traded him or when the Cardinals traded him.

Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.

by Dave Pendleton on Jul 16, 2010 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

They may have trade value but they are not going to be traded.......

Pujols, Rasmus, Wainright, Garcia & Molina – so why bother putting them on a list. I also do not see them trading any of their current relievers or Carpenter. However, while many say the Cards do not have the necessary chips to pull of a major trade – your list seems to indicate otherwise and I agree. So how about condensing your list to those who actually have at least a slight possibility of being traded.

Shelby Miller – from everything that I am reading he would be a major chip that other teams would covet. An Arizona blog discusses possible landing spots for Haren and they have the Cards as one of four or five possible sites. They are real high on Shelby Miller but they also think that the Cards could get Haren without giving up Miller. They like Lance Lynn and either Sanchez, Salas and other young players. So I will start my list with Miller, Sanchez & Salas. The Cards obviously will not want to trade these guys but they probably could be had for the right guy and Haren is a right guy.

Ludwick, Jay & Craig. Suddenly there is a lot of potential right fielders and I really like the Craig / Jay platoon. It seems to me that the Cards need to make a decision on Ludwick this year instead of waiting until next year. Sure it would be great to keep him this year even if they do not resign him. However, can they really afford that luxury with a glaring need for a SS and another starting pitcher. If they are going to keep him then it would seem that Jay and Craig would have good value and would be expendable. However if Ludwick is gone after this year then I think it makes sense to move him. I think that a Jay and Craig combination is better than Ludwick and I don’t think they can afford to resign Ludwick so I put Ludwick on the list. Another possibility is to keep Ludwick for this year and Craig for next year which would allow them to move Jay for the right player. I agree that Jay has a lot of value right now and I would be real tempted to move him while his value is at a high point. He is not going to continue to hit .380 and he might be the key part of a package to net them a very good SS or pitcher.

Ryan and Greene may not be very good right now but I think a team that is rebuilding could afford to play them and allow them to mature. Greene was a AAA
All Star and should have value. I would keep Ryan beccause of his defensive ability but I would move Greene in a trade for another SS so I put Greene on that list for sure and if they were trading for a young everday SS such as Drew then I think that Ryan or Greene could be packaged. Therefore I put Ryan or Greene on the block but not both of them because they do not have another legit backup SS.

There are obviously many other minor league players who have some value and maybe they can package some of those players to make a deal. However, if they are going to get a Haren then look for some of the players currently on the team to be part of that package.

I think that Haren is their pitching target and I believe that Miller will be put in a package for Haren but I do not think that Miller will be traded for anyone else. Haren is under contract for a couple of more years and you would be getting a young proven frontline pitcher for a future frontline pitcher. The upside for the DB’s is the potential savings they would get for a young pitcher who would be under their control for several years while Haren costs them huge dollars in a couple of years or he leaves for FA.

I also like Drew as the SS target because they need a SS for the current stretch drive and for the future. Drew is a good young player who could solve the SS problem for multiple years. To get Haren and Drew I think it will take 5/6 players and while it is impossible to predict who those players might be I would guess that Miller, Jay and Ryan would get the talks started.

by Warcard on Jul 16, 2010 11:02 AM EDT reply actions  

yea, my list wasn't about who might get traded

it was about who would bring back the most value were they to get traded(irregardless of whether or not they had a chance of actually getting traded)…Cameron’s list at fangraphs is full of players who are in no way going to be traded this deadline…he’s just making a list of the most valuable commodity in a trade, which is all i am doing

but i agree with you, i think we have more in the way of trade chips that most give us credit for

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

That guy we gave a lot of money in the offseason to protect albert is dead to me...DEAD TO ME

by VolsnCards5 on Jul 16, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Greene and Ryan have zero trade value

I like them both and hope they succeed but no way are we getting Stephen Drew for a package based around either of them. They are throw-ins at best.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 19, 2010 5:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just echoing a few other comments here

but I think we get WAY more back for Colby or Waino than anyone else on this list, so that probably puts Albert’s one reasonably expensive year behind their 4.5/2.5 reasonably inexpensive years on the list. We could probably literally trade Waino to ANY team for their best two or three prospects, and I can’t even begin to fathom what we could get back for Colby. I imagine at this stage, Albert would bring back any given prospect in baseball, but a team with a great farm system probably wouldn’t totally empty it of upside in order to land him, even if they did have the cash to extend him.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 19, 2010 5:14 AM EDT reply actions  

Also

if WE know we can’t resign Albert, and thus we put him on the block, that makes him a lot less valuable – any team who CAN afford him (let’s call them the Bolton Green Stockings) knows they only have to wait one more season before they can simply sign him as a FA. That’s got to reduce what they’d be willing to pay.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 19, 2010 5:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

More random comments...
8. Jon Jay—Maybe I am putting too much stock into current performance, but I think teams would quickly ask for Jay in trade negotiations. When drafted, some scouts said Jay could someday win a batting title. While, that may be a slight overstatement, I do think he could easily hit .300 in the big leagues, with an OBP above .350, all while playing good defense at all 3 outfield positions(his bat plays best in center). He’ll be under team control for 6 years after this season.

I really think people, in general, ARE putting way too much stock in Jay’s recent excellence in the majors. Suggesting he could “easily” hit .300 in the bigs just isn’t realistic, IMO. It’s possible but the odds are very much stacked against it. His BA in the high minors (AA and AAA) is something like .285. In the majors last year, there were only 40 guys who averaged over .300. It’s not an easy thing to do, and it’s generally not something that guys who don’t exceed .300 in the high minors suddenly learn to do.

I like Jay and I can believe that there’s a possibility he’ll become an average player in the majors, which is a pretty valuable thing to have as a 4th OFer (with a slim chance of taking over RF), but I seriously think that we’re all being a bit too bullish about him based on a few good weeks in his season in MLB.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 19, 2010 5:25 AM EDT reply actions  

Agreed

But there’s no reason to believe that he can’t be a .270/.340/.440 hitter, playing +5 or better defense in CF and batting left handed. That’s a pretty impressive value for a team that doesn’t have Colby Rasmus in CF, imo. Considering that he has the speed to swipe 20-25 bags a year, I think he’s got very good value in trade, but not as much as someone with a higher ceiling who is younger. That’s really the only tag on him, imo.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jul 19, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm just not sure I see him as an above-average hitter

and I think I’m right in saying the projection systems would agree. He HAS made real strides this year, though (overall, including his AAA performance), so I guess it’s possible, but he’s never really been seen as liable to be anything other than a fairly poor hitter in the majors, so I’m not sure I place more stock in his excellent 2010 than the rest of his minor league career.

Time will tell, but I’d imagine he won’t walk nearly enough to put up those sort of numbers (I think a .270 BA is very possible, but I’m not sure his OBP is going to dramatically out-pace .300. Maybe .320 or .330 or so but he’s never been one to walk much and I’m not sure he will be in MLB either). Good glove, though, and even if he’s a .320 wOBA-type guy, he’s league average-ish with the glove he has.

I like him, as I say, I just think people are going a bit crazy over 80-odd MLB PAs.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 19, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

So, is Mo working on a package of

one MIF (Skip, Greene, Boog)

one RF (Jay, Craig, Ludwick)

one arm (your pick)

for SP or MIF (Haren, S Drew type)?

These are our “chips.” I’m not sure it’s enough. And I’m concerned Freese and Penny aren’t going to be back to help.

"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning

by gocards62 on Jul 19, 2010 5:38 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm not sure what the D'Backs want for Drew

but you’re right, for Haren that isn’t nearly enough. Haren has two more years plus a team option. Would you trade Adam Wainwright next year for a package like that?

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 19, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe there's a Lohse type out there

we can get for this package. We really don’t need a Haren.

"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning

by gocards62 on Jul 19, 2010 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

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