Adam Ottavino's debut and OH MY GOD HOW DID WE GET SHUT OUT BY CARLOS SLIVA?!
As of writing this the Cardinals are winning 6-1 vs. the Cubs and Fat Miles has just grounded out, once again confirming my belief that he is the worst player in the history of baseball. Despite that, this game has been amazing for the Cardinals. Wainwright continues his streak of ridiculous consistency, Pujols hits two three bombs and raises his seasonal OPS to just under 1.000 which is hilarious given his massive struggles this year (don't EVER question Albert), Matt Holliday got a hit with runners on and picked up an actual RBI, and the Cards were able to salvage a series win against the Hated Rivals, in which they played amazingly in two out of the three games.
However, the game in which the Cardinals did not play amazingly is the one I'm interested in writing about today. On Saturday, the Cards lost 5-0 to the Cubs in a game that featured two very interesting storylines. Firstly, Adam Ottavino made his major league debut, and secondly, Carlos Silva pitched seven shutout innings allowing just two hits, no walks and struck out 11 (!) batters. Both performance deserve more in depth analysis
The Rook
After a couple years of meh results in the minors, Ottavino was finally living up to the potential the his draft position portended. He maintained his steady 8 strikeout per 9 rate, while cutting his walk rate in half and even bumping up his ground ball rate a little bit. Combined with solid scouting reports hinting at actual potential, Ottavino represents a legitimate prospect in contrast to the usual Walters' and Hawksworth's in our system. So when he made his debut Saturday, people were excited.
The results were mixed. He struck out 5 in 5 2/3 innings and was able to pitch around a couple of errors, however he also allowed 11 baserunners (including 6 walks!) and labored through the game. Of course that being his first start and all, we'd expect some jitters so the results of the game don't really tell us much about Ottavino as a pitcher. Fortunately, Pitch f/x data can tell us a lot in only one start. Using the files availaible at Brooks Baseball, I took a closer look at Ottavino's debut specifically looking at the velocity, movement and location of his pitches.
By my count, Ottavino threw 71 fastballs, 8 changeups, and 15 sliders. His fastball averaged 93.3 MPH, with a range of 89.1 to 96.2. Needless to say, that is well above average fastball velocity for a right handed starting pitcher and that alone is one of the main reasons why Ottavino was a prospect all of these years despite mediocre numbers in the minors. His changeup averaged 85.3 MPH. According to research from Dave Allen, the optimal fastball-changeup velocity differential is between 5% and 12%. Ottavino's changeup was about 9% slower than his fastball on Saturday, so that's a pretty good differential. His slider was the slowest pitch he threw, averaging 82.7 MPH.
The movement on his pitches was pretty standard. His fastball had a couple inches more horizontal movement than the average right handed pitcher (meaning it broke more into a right handed hitter) and slightly more sink. That makes it closer to a sinker than a straight fourseam fastball, which should make Dave Duncan happy. His changeup had similar horizontal movement compared to the average righty, but about 3 inches more sink to it. Again, another positive sign. His slider had pretty generic movement, although with slightly more drop than that of the average righty. For those who want to see a pretty graph, look here.
So based off of his stuff, Ottavino scouts out very well, which is what we expected going in. Using my work in progress method of similarity scores, and only focusing on velocity and movement - ignoring pitch selection and location, Ottavino's pitches last night were most similar to those of Jason Berken, Jason Hammel, Ubaldo Jimenez, Mike Pelfrey and Justin Masterson in 2009. Burnett and Joba also make the top 10. So that's pretty good company. Ottavino's location, on the other hand, was not nearly as impressive:
The blue dots are fastballs, the yellow dots are sliders and the green dots are changeups. Each of those plots are from the catchers point of view.
His location against lefties actually looked pretty good. He pitched them away, not throwing anything over the inner half of the plate and was especially able to place the changeup right at the peripheries of the strike zone. He even through in a couple of nice backdoor sliders. He faced eight lefties in the game (not including the intentional walk to Koyie Hill), and allowed two triples, walked two and got four outs including a strike zone. So his results against lefties were pretty awful, but given his solid pitch location and good changeup velocity/movement, I'm inclined to think that was more Cubs batters taking good at bats than anything that Ottavino did wrong.
His location against righties, on the other hand, looked terrible. He was all over the place with his offspeed stuff, throwing three sliders above the strike zone and hanging some others, and his fastball location wasn't very fine. Of the 68 pitches Ottavino threw to righties on Saturday, just 32 were inside my approximation of the strike zone. Interestingly enough, righties didn't do very well against Ottavino. Of the 18 righties that he faced, he walked three, but struck out four and allowed just three singles and a ton of ground balls.
All in all, I think we can say this was a positive start for Ottavino. He struggled with his command, but showed above average stuff and a sporadic ability to locate his pitches. His repertoire looks like one that would fit in great with Dave Duncan's ground ball philosophy if he can learn to keep the ball down.
The fat pitcher
via www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com
Carlos Silva has a career 4.64 ERA and has struck out 3.9 batters per nine innings. Accordingly, he's allowed 10.8 hits per nine innings. Against the Cardinals, he allowed zero runs in seven innings, struck out 11 and allowed just two hits. He more than tripled his career strikeout rate against the Cardinals on Saturday. To be fair, his strikeout rate this season is over six per nine, and he had a good little sinker working against the Cardinals and mixed his pitches up well, but this is honestly something that isn't supposed to happen.
It's not the first time either. In the Padres series, the Cardinals struck out seven times against Jon Garland, who's almost as unintimidating as Silva. The Cardinals had a combined 19 strikeouts and 22 swings and misses against two guys who top out at 92 and who's game plans consist of throwing slow sinkers and the occasional tepid offspeed pitches down in the zone.
On the year, the Cardinals are in the bottom of the league in strikeout and contact rate, although not too far below the league average in either category, so perhaps this phenominon isn't as inauspicious as it might otherwise be. However, it's truly amazing how the Cardinals are able to turn a couple of guys who's usual fascist inclinations would make Joel Pineiro blush into Nolan Ryan.
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they may be rare as of late,
but what they lack in frequency they more than make up for in quality (and fat jokes). Great read, VEP! And I have been following your experimentation with these similarity scores over at THT (awesome article), and it’s exciting to see them put to use.
Just wanted to be the second to comment mostly; however I was doing time in Seattle when the Mariners unloaded Silva for Milty . .
Fans in the Emerald City were Yucking all over themselves for swindling the Cubs. The removal of Silva was the polar opposite of the removal of Boeing from Seattle. . . at least on paper. .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Watching Hendry get over on Z...
has been a wondrous thing to behold. The disappointment of all those insufferable DBs at lookout landing has warmed my heart.
Tis better to lose bunting than win with dingers alone...
by guayzimi on May 31, 2010 8:23 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
...or should I say...
Silva lining?
by jd is legend on May 31, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 9 recs
The Cards not being able to hit crappy to mediocre hitters...
isn’t a new phenomena. If memory serves this ugly beast first cropped up in earnest in 2006 and has been with us, to a greater or lesser degree, ever since.
Maybe it is just my mind playing tricks on me, but given the turnover since the beginning of 2006… it is an X-File.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
I don't believe this phenomenon...
actually exists. If you peruse other team blogs, everyone else complains about the same thing. Obviously it’s because those games are especially frustrating and stand out.
Here are the game scores for all 2009 opposing pitchers. With only an exception or two the scores above 70 (dominant start against us) are from guys named Lee, Haren, Lincecum etc…
http://bbref.com/pi/shareit/fMevu
Tis better to lose bunting than win with dingers alone...
Is 70 a meaningful number or is it an arbitrary cut-off?
I agree that it is probably an exaggeration on our part as fans, but there are plenty of examples in that table of mediocre pitchers either having a good game score (at least I think, like I implied above I am not too familiar with the scale of game score) or mediocre pitchers having a mediocre game score but the Cards still being unable to score against them.
I guess every team has this happen. But does every team have it happen with Jeff Suppan? That was really infuriating.
Man, August was so awesome last year.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
You can draw the line...
anywhere you want, but if you move it to, say, 60 you start to get a lot of low strikeout/high hits allowed games. These are not “dominant” so much as good starts with a lucky (for the pitcher) distribution of hits. Silva, Shairon Martis last year, Bud F Norris… These are the ones where we got dominated by a “bad” pitcher.
Tis better to lose bunting than win with dingers alone...
I am still not quite sure where the idea that Bud Norris is a bad pitcher has come from
he’s had some slight walk rate issues in the majors, but he strikes out more than enough to be effectively wild, despite giving up too much aerial contact. If he can improve his control a little bit he could be really good, and he’s a pretty reasonable #3 now.
Jeff Suppan, OTOH, is completely shit.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 2, 2010 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions
I am curious about Ottavino's prospect-ness at the time of his drafting
I believe we selected him 30th overall. Anybody remember if this was considered a reasonable pick for us at the time? Maybe a “reach” or a “lucky he fell that far” pick? Just wondering.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
matty, I think he was a little of a "reach" if anything
certainly not “lucky he fell that far.” Otto was the America East pitcher of the year in 2005 at Northeastern. Quoting from the PD draft article on him just we drafted him 30th overall in 2006: “This year, Ottavino had just a 4-5 record, but, featuring mostly a fastball and slider, he fanned 120 hitters in 93 1/3 innings and had an earned run average of 2.98. Ottavino attracted attention by throwing a no-hitter, the first of his career, against James Madison, but he gained more notoriety in a game he lost. In a 2-1 loss to then No. 1 Georgia Tech in his first start of the season, Ottavino fanned 14 and gave up just two hits. ‘We noticed him in that game, but we’ve been following him a lot this year,’ Luhnow said. ’He’s the type of guy who has the ability to touch 96. He has the potential to be a 200-inning guy with multiple pitches.’ Kobe Perez, the lead Cardinals’ scout on Ottavino said he was struck by the lanky righthander when Ottavino faced some Boston Red Sox hitters in a scrimmage this spring in fort Myers, Fla. ‘He was 93 to 96’ Perez said. ‘he struck out two big leaguers and broke the other guy’s bat. I fell in love with the guy.’” Baseball America described him as follows: “His current stuff, his projection and his calm mound demeanor make for an attractive package.” So, the Cards apparently saw a lot of potential there. I don’t know who else was available then but, when you’re drafting 30th, this sort of pick makes some sense.
BTW, in that same 2006 draft
the Cards picked Chris Perez in the supplemental round, Jon Jay in the second round, Shane Robinson in the 5th, Allen Craig in the 8th, PJ in the 11th, and Luke Gregerson in the 28th, along with a number of others still in the minors.
Coolness
I was having trouble finding stuff from the draft with Google. Only some really bare bones descriptions.
Lots of guys that have seen big league action from that draft. Interesting stuff.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I think the issue with Otto
has been his relatively slow movement through the system. A number of others from that draft have already appeared in the majors while our #1 pick was slow to develop. And, Otto still has developing to do. The knock on him in the minors was his lack of control, i.e., a high number of walks, something we saw on Saturday. But, it will surely do him (and PJ and Jaime) a world of good being around Carp and Adam – seeing how they pitch, talking to them about concentrating on every pitch, and watching how they prepare. Carp did a lot for Adam in this regard, and hopefully they will both do the same with the youngsters.
It would be really awesome to see him cut down the walks
He seems to have a good arsenal. Premature visions of a Waintwright/Miller/Garcia/Ottavino/Whoever rotation of homegrown awesome are already dancing in my head.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
whoever probably = Lance Lynn
and it would be fun to see that sort of rotation. There are also a number of others in the minors who could develop (and Otto may end up in the bullpen). But, assuming Albert re-signs, having a low-cost rotation (and bullpen) is how the Cards will balance their budget. One of the things that needs to happen once the Cards signed Holliday.
Somehow I forgot about Lynn.
Since he has never called up (to my knowledge) I tend to forget he’s there.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I agree generally
but I think we put too much emphasis on how much can rub off. Basically you have to have the goods and then some help channeling it can come from spending time with guys like Carp. Overall, I’m glad to see Otto get a taste and hope we see him for a couple more starts. Gotta help the motivation to get a look-see at major league life
Just win
agree completely, Duke
but being around Carp and Adam certainly shows the youngsters what they have to do (and that part is simply very valuable) – the rest is up to the youngsters.
Maybe a slight reach. . .
but certainly a “tools”/“projectability” pitcher pick rather than your typical (up to that point) Cardinals “polished-college-pitcher” pick that gave us such luminaries as Chris Lambert.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 1, 2010 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly
as a 30th pick in the first round, if a guy can make the major leagues (which he has), show the sort of stuff needed to get major leaguers out (which he has) and have some sort of sketchy future in the bullpen or rotation (which I think he has), you’ve got to say it’s not a bad pick. With the exception of Chris Lambert and maybe Pete Kozma I’d say we’ve done broadly OK in the last 5 or 6 years with first rounders. I think people tend to over-estimate how many picks actually turn into quality major leaguers, especially outside of the top 20. The busts far outweigh the stars, and we’ve had one star (Colby) and a number of other guys who look like being vaguely productive major leaguers.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 2, 2010 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions
FESPN just said that Albert moved into 5th in RBIs for his first 10 seasons.
Which is just one of those “radio talk” stats, but damned impressive when you get to thinking about it.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on May 31, 2010 9:22 AM EDT reply actions
Baseball-reference check
I recently subscribed at baseball-ref to get access to the play index data, which let’s you sort data by career or age totals (highly recommended, and kind of addictive).
Here are the top ten for RBI in seasons 1-10:
1 Joe Dimaggio 1277
2 Al Simmons 1275
3 Ted Williams 1261
4 Albert Pujols 1150
5 Lou Gehrig 1146
6 Hank Aaron 1121
7 Johnny Mize 1096
8 Jeff Bagwell 1093
9 Earl Averill 1077
10 Jim Bottomley 1057
It looks like Albert is stuck at #4. (Aside: DiMaggio and Williams first ten seasons are not consecutive because they fought in WWII.)
………………………..
My favorite Albert career stats: Total bases and Extra Bast Hits. The data below are for the first 10 seasons, meaning Albert will keep adding to his current totals this season (Si Dios quiere…):
Total Bases
1 Hank Aaron 3399
2 Albert Pujols 3337
3 Joe DiMaggio 3304
4 Al Simmons 3250
5 Ted Williams 3220
6 Earl Averill 3174
7 Stan Musial 3074
8 Chuck Klein 3071
9 Willie Mays 3067
10 Frank Robinson 3063
(I don’t want to draw the ire of the GOBs—draw your own conclusions about Albert catching Aaron.)
Extra Base Hits
1 Albert Pujols 792
2 Ted Williams 750
3 Hank Aaron 740
4 Joe DiMaggio 734
5 Todd Helton 728
6 Earl Averill 715
7 Stan Musial 706
8 Al Simmons 702
9 Lou Gehrig 701
10 Joe Medwick 699
Albert leads in home runs, and needs 14 more doubles this season to pass Helton and 17 more to pass Medwick. To lead in both HR and doubles is amazing. Those lists don’t overlap much…..
Ridiculous
by ncgostl on May 31, 2010 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Thanks for the correction.
That’s what I get for typing before my brain engages.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on May 31, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
And quite honestly, I don't know that "ridiculous" can fully encompass what we are witnessing from Albert.
I’m fairly certain he falls into the “indescribable” category.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on May 31, 2010 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I've said it before:
transcendent
I never would slip you Mickey! It is merely rhinoceros horn. This makes the champagna bubble.
VEB: WWGTD
by The Continental on May 31, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Inigo Montoya
You keep (h)using that (h)word. I do notta think it means what you think it means.
I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson
FESPN...
… may have listed Albert at #5 (I can believe there is some uncertainty in numbers or in how you create cut offs…). Didn’t mean to correct you, but wanted to fill in more detail from the one source I know.
A few other tidbits from baseball-reference:
Albert is high up on all the sabermetric measures (WAR, RC, Batting-Runs, etc.) as you’d expect. I like total bases (it reflects a high average and power) and extra base hits (it backs up Albert’s description of himself as a “line drive” hitter who happens to hit home runs). But the sabermetric stats tell the same story…..
Here is where he stands all time for career WAR-fielding at first base (where WAR is a rate stat, and could decline later):
1 Albert Pujols 107
2 Keith Hernandez 102
3 John Olerud 95
4 Todd Helton 86
5 George Scott 81
6 Wally Pipp 80
7 Mark Grace 77
8 Bill Terry 73
9 Pete O’Brien 69
10 Lyle Overbay 66
11 Frank McCormick 62
12 Eddie Murray 61
13 Bill White 60
14 Tino Martinez 58
15 Vic Power 56
You gotta love seeing Wally Pipp in the list (I was curious and did discover that he played 3 more years in Cincinnati after being replaced by Gehrig….). This list looks pretty legit for the players in this era—hard to judge the older ones.
And here’s where Albert stands in career “total zone runs” at first base (a stat I don’t understand; it depends on access to game level data through retrosheet and only goes back so far—here’s a description)
1. Keith Hernandez 120
2. Albert Pujols 100
3. John Olerud 97
4. George Scott 90
5. Todd Helton 89
6. Mark Grace 76
7. Pete O’Brien 74
8. Lyle Overbay (33) 66
9. Vic Power 62
10. Eddie Murray 61
Here are NL leaders at 1B in “total zone runs” since 2004:
2010 (NL AL) Derrek Lee (CHC) 6
2009 (NL AL) Adrian Gonzalez (SDP), Albert Pujols (STL) 12
2008 (NL AL) Albert Pujols (STL) 18
2007 (NL AL) Albert Pujols (STL) 25
2006 (NL AL) Albert Pujols (STL) 14
2005 (NL AL) Albert Pujols (STL) 9
2004 (NL AL) Albert Pujols (STL) 15
Greater ridiculosity…..
Don't worry about the correction.
Glad you did what you did. My eyes were barely open and my brain was in warm-up mode. And you brought to light some more of the marvels that are Albert Pujols.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on May 31, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I gotta love seeing
Bill White on the WAR-fielding list. One of my favorite Cardinals.
"A good catcher is the quarterback, the carburetor, the lead dog, the pulse taker, the traffic cop and sometimes a lot of unprintable things, but no team gets very far without one." – Miller Huggins
these lists look strange without ruth
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Don't forget
Ruth was a pitcher at the beginning of his career.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on May 31, 2010 11:09 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He's #1 in xbhs if you get rid of his pitching seasons...
Tis better to lose bunting than win with dingers alone...
817 assumes 1918 as his starting in year in OF (with some pitching)
If you use 1920 (no pitching), you get 863 xbh for the next 10 seasons….. out of reach.
I would say you either have to start...
in 1918 when he started playing the outfield (817) or 1919 when he logged a full season of at bats (860). 1919 is probably fairer – he only played in 95 games in 1918.
Pujols would have to play the best four months of his life to reach 860.
Tis better to lose bunting than win with dingers alone...
Remember back in 2002-2004..
when Yankee fans were proposing a Soriano-Pujols swap? Rob Neyer had to patiently explain that, media hype aside, Pujols really was better than Soriano…
Tis better to lose bunting than win with dingers alone...
i figured everyone knew that
but may have overlooked his absence from the list – just a reminder.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
first ten years of playing time
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
This is great information.
I will need this in my arsenal the next time I argue that Albert is the best baseball player ever. I suppose I have nearly irrefutable evidence for the baseball player ithrough his first ten seasons
ha
i knew there would be someone – see above discussion of ruth.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
A little more on the greatness of Ruth
I added Ruth’s pitching WAR in his first few years (he had 7.4 and 5.8 in two of them) to his batting WAR in his first 10 seasons to see what he did over the first 10 years combining his positions. His WAR total is 88.0.
Here’s the WAR top 15 in the first ten seasons (I don’t think this includes fielding):
1 Babe Ruth 88.0
2 Ted Williams 86.2
3 Mickey Mantle 78.8
4 Albert Pujols 78.5 (4 months to play)
5 Willie Mays 76.3
6 Rogers Hornsby 76.2
7 Hank Aaron 76.1
8 Barry Bonds 74.5
9 Stan Musial 74.3
10 Ty Cobb 73.7
11 Joe DiMaggio 69.8
12 Eddie Mathews 69.8
13 Wade Boggs 69.3
14 Eddie Collins 68.7
15 Lou Gehrig 68.3
Sociopath, you can safely put Albert in the top 5 for the first 10 years of a career…..
And how about Pujols, Hornsby, Musial trifecta in the top ten
thanks!
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
thanks for the post
You explained it in a way that even I could understand.
"Have you ever thrown a ball 100 miles an hour? Everything hurts. Even your ass hurts. I see pictures of my face and say, 'Holy shit', but that's the strain you feel when you throw." ~ Bob Gibson
Good post, VEP.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on May 31, 2010 11:10 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Does Ottavino suffer from the Boggs malady?
Similar to Boggs, he appears to be a different pitcher when someone gets on base.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
Otto looked pumped to start the game
and his velo went down as his adrenaline did. Will he really be touching 95-96 consistently or were these numbers fueled by fear / excitement? I don’t know how hard he’d been throwing in the minors.

I never would slip you Mickey! It is merely rhinoceros horn. This makes the champagna bubble.
VEB: WWGTD
by The Continental on May 31, 2010 12:08 PM EDT reply actions
He consistently sits 92-93 in the minors.
Touching 96 isn’t unexpected.
Think; It's not illegal yet.
The graph makes it look like there was a significant downward trend in his velocity-
but going from 94-96 to 92-94 isn’t that bad.
I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons
One big reason I like it here
is that I can bring stuff like this up and get a real response / explanation rather that just getting laughed off.
Thanks, guys.
I never would slip you Mickey! It is merely rhinoceros horn. This makes the champagna bubble.
VEB: WWGTD
by The Continental on May 31, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
but there are plenty of ways to explain that and if he maintains 93mph+ over the course of a start, he’ll be find. I’m more worried about the command that deteriorated during the start.
Think; It's not illegal yet.
Yeah.
Did he look like he was really sweating it later in the start?
I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons
the consensus was overthrowing, IIRC.
the game thread may have more comments.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
That's why I'm afraid to open it.
I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons
well, he was falling practically into the first base dugout
on some of those pitches, and a couple times spun himself around till his back was to the plate. and all those times he drug the pitch with him – whether fastball or breaking ball, they were all ending up way outside to a righty hitter.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I hate that this data is displayed as being continuous!!!!
/overbearing statgeek
Tis better to lose bunting than win with dingers alone...
It is kind of an odd way to visualize individual events I guess
They are, however, contiguous.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
If you use your imagination
you can fit sine curves to it in your head.
Actually, it is interesting because it makes it easier to see “alternations” than if it were just a data plot by pitch. And it looks to me like there is more alternation in speed than would be expected by chance—maybe strategic, or maybe misclassified pitches.
by ncgostl on May 31, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just messing with you...
I agree there’s no reason to draw a line between all the pitches.
Tis better to lose bunting than win with dingers alone...
If I had to compare Ottavino's stuff to anyone. . .
it would be Joaquin Andujar. Heavy dose of fastballs, all of them hard, and all of them breaking in hard. Of course, Andujar had a clue where his fastballs were going more often than Mr. Ottavino has shown so far. I think that lefties’ success against Mr. Ottavino is going to be a continuing theme. All else being equal, it’s easier to hit balls moving away from you than those boring in on your hands.
I think it was an encouraging start for the lad.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jun 1, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
lineup
Fox_Sports_MW
Cards 5/31- Lopez SS, Ludwick RF, Pujols 1B, Holliday LF, Freese 3B, Rasmus CF, Molina C, Schumaker 2B, Garcia P 5 minutes ago via Twitter for Android
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
from red reporter:
Cabrera SS
Cairo 1B
Phillips 2B
Rolen 3B
Gomes LF
Bruce RF
Stubbs CF
Hernandez C
Arroyo P
(in case anyone didn’t know, votto hasn’t played in a week with a stiff neck)
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
First Kennedy played 1B for the Natinals against us, now this
It’s like the universe has to compensate for us having Albert Pujols. Only so much awesome allowed at first at any given time.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Or everyone is trying to out-Tony Tony
Tony might get mad and have Yadi pitch to LaRue then LaRue pitch to Yadi the next inning just to show them
The bible declares an eye for an eye, so, let us now take our vengeance on this murderous ocean. . . You won't be hurting anyone anymore
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on May 31, 2010 2:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Don't dare him.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on May 31, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
he and dusty bring out the best in each other
could be an interesting day. i’m wondering if dusty has already given the order to walk apu every time, regardless of situation.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
you mean best as in worst?
"Have you ever thrown a ball 100 miles an hour? Everything hurts. Even your ass hurts. I see pictures of my face and say, 'Holy shit', but that's the strain you feel when you throw." ~ Bob Gibson
heh
Any game involving either of them or Sweet Lou, you really need to keep your WTF sign handy, cuz you may need it at any time.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on May 31, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
yes and it's always entertaining
I’ve heard stories about mutual dislike. I don’t know, though. They have been competitors for a long time.
"Have you ever thrown a ball 100 miles an hour? Everything hurts. Even your ass hurts. I see pictures of my face and say, 'Holy shit', but that's the strain you feel when you throw." ~ Bob Gibson
i feel like tony and dusty are constantly yelling at each other every time their teams meet
its fun.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
tony can't shake dusty
dusty shows up in san fran while tony in oakland. tony leaves for st louis and now their teams are playoff rivals until dusty goes to chicago (where tony also managed, AL) and now they are division and historical rivals. dusty leaves chicago but stays in the division, and has jocketty and rolen, both of which probably drives tony nuts, for opposite reasons.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
judging by the comments at red reporter
sounds like cairo has played first all week. they’d prefer votto be DL’d and call someone up – i believe cairo is basically their only option right now.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Sucks for them that Alonso isn't doing better in AAA.
I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons
a real bopper at first
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
11 for 23 with 4 xbhs in Votto's absence...
NOTE: THIS IS A DESCRIPTION OF AN ACTUAL HISTORICAL EVENT. NO INFERENCE IS BEING MADE AS TO LIKELY FUTURE PERFORMANCE. PLEASE DO NOT POLLUTE THE THREAD WITH A LESSON ON STATS 101. THANK YOU.
Tis better to lose bunting than win with dingers alone...
by guayzimi on May 31, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
why that's just a SSS if he did it over 500 AB it would have more significance.
friend me on facebook y'all
by BuzzKillington on May 31, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's apparent I'm neither feared nor respected here...
Tis better to lose bunting than win with dingers alone...
you should change your sig, maybe.
it’s the first step to fear and respect.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Miguel Cairo has reportedly talked to hall of famer Joe Morgan about his approach,
Morgan was quoted as telling him, “Once, consistency the kid Cincinatti Reds Dave Concepcion,” he was then interrupted by Orel Hersheiser, who said, “I think what Joe is trying to say is that sliders spin clockwise, of course sometimes they spin counterclockwise.” The two sportscasters later described the meeting as, “a good talk” with Morgan again stressing consistency, the fact that he played on the Reds, and Dave Concepcion.
I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons
by hazel on May 31, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
great afticle VEP
although I was expecting the same charts for Silva as for Ottavino. I think the main thing we learned here is that locating your pitches is even more important than what type of stuff you are throwing up there. Silva had excellent location in that game, and it looked like he knew exactly what he was doing. Ottavino just had a nervous first mlb appearance I’d say. even though pj walters had much better results, I’m much more comfortable with Ottavino going forward, at least right now anyway.
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 1:36 PM EDT reply actions
it's free?
thought it was a pay site
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
thanks
did not know that
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
You can sponsor a pitcher if you'd like to help him defray his costs, though.
I never would slip you Mickey! It is merely rhinoceros horn. This makes the champagna bubble.
VEB: WWGTD
by The Continental on May 31, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
It's beautiful right now.
Satellite shows a little rain off to the west, but nothing big. Looks like a bigger cell went off to the north, but that’s past us now.
I never would slip you Mickey! It is merely rhinoceros horn. This makes the champagna bubble.
VEB: WWGTD
by The Continental on May 31, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Looks like clear sailing (knock wood)

I never would slip you Mickey! It is merely rhinoceros horn. This makes the champagna bubble.
VEB: WWGTD
by The Continental on May 31, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Welcome back, Allen Craig!!!!!!
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
Hey Houston,
Suck it; you suck
Should we put Bruce Willis's face on a milk carton now?
I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons
carlos sliva
nobody else noticed that? i was wondering if it was spanish for curtis sliwa.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
plenty of grammar errors but I got the gist of it
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
ubaldo vs. timmeh today
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
of course it's on the same time as the cards vs reds
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Bummer!
I was hoping to watch that match-up. Think I will peek in from time to time.
me too
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
it's been raining all day
thundering all night here. one lightning bolt was just a few blocks away, that was loud as shit
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 2:52 PM EDT reply actions
I've been out of the loop, but...
we called up Evan MacLane? And now we’re sending him back down? Weird.
I thought the same thing
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Something to do with Hawksworth's ineffectiveness/injury and the decision not to send him to the DL...
Plus I think they were worried PJ/Ott would get shelled and they’d need a long man (not that I have knowledge of McClane’s length, but he could serve that role…).
Tis better to lose bunting than win with dingers alone...
did we already send down Salas?
hard to keep track of
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I just know he did well
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I honestly have not been able to follow...
the logic or public comments on all the roster shuffling. I think Salas went down b/c they wanted someone who could pitch more than one or two innings.
Tis better to lose bunting than win with dingers alone...
i heard maclane was scheduled to pitch today in memphis
they probably need him since we took all their other pitchers
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
he was
he pitched seven scoreless innings with six hits allowed…. just two strikeouts but zero walks as well
little lucky i presume but I’ll take it
Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog
by stlcardsfan4 on May 31, 2010 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
that's pretty much your classic MacLane line
I’m guessing he could do a passable Doug Davis impersonation given a few starts in the majors (not that his 2010 ERA is something you’d want to impersonate, but he’s been adequate otherwise).
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 2, 2010 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions
actually davis probably isn't a great comp
Maclane has better control and strikes out fewer.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 2, 2010 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions
what's weirder is that we called him up in the first place.
indeed
friend me on facebook y'all
by BuzzKillington on May 31, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
like guayzimi said
it was insurance in case PJ or Otto got shelled. There’s an interview with tony saying exactly that (I think it was Goould). Tony said something like “we asked them to send us whoever could give us a bunch of innings, and MacLane was who we got”.
"The outfield is deep and playing him straight-away, and the infield is the same, except first, second, third, and short are playing him to pull."
-Mike Shannon
I always love reading tony's comments
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Ringing endorsement from your new boss who is also a legend in his field
ouch…
Tis better to lose bunting than win with dingers alone...
going to game today
first time seeing garcia live…. im sure it will be as good as seeing him on television
really hope we rock bronson arroyo like we should although he did have a great start last time
career line against us: 13 starts, 4-5, 4.18 ERA, 6.4 IP/9, 6/5 K/9, 1.9 BB/9
not bad, not great either, still want to see him rocked cause he isn’t that good a pitcher… and because he looks like this
Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog
here's a graphic of how Silva pitched us, looks like lots of difference between his offspeed pitches and his fastball
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 3:17 PM EDT reply actions
this one is a little more detailed
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
SBN'd?
is it just me or is this one not showing up?
Rasmus can hit lefties
cardinalred
St. Louis Sports blog
by stlcardsfan4 on May 31, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
showing up here
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Hey - just a heads up.
I don’t think Brooks Baseball wants people hot-linking their images. Just save it to imageshack or picasa or whatever and link to that.
You can read it in any tone you like.
ok
thnks
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
They actually shut down the site for a bit because it became so costly.
You can read it in any tone you like.
cool
it’s new to me, for some reason I thought you had to pay to access these images. I’m pretty glad now, might give me some more ideas for a fanpost. I’ll save the images of course!
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
here's the balls and strikes
not sure what x means, I think it is contact
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
GOD, his location wasn't even that good
by vivaelpujols on May 31, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
it is worse than I thought it was.
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
made him look like a wizard
but he did have about 10 mph difference between his fast and slow pitches. that helps
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Really busting us with that unhittable 86mph inside cheese there...
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 2, 2010 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions
chris perez currently getting lit up by the Yanks
"The outfield is deep and playing him straight-away, and the infield is the same, except first, second, third, and short are playing him to pull."
-Mike Shannon
d'oh
like that guy, but I guess he is not all that good
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
granted, he's getting lit up by ARod and Robbie Cano, who are both pretty good hitters.
"The outfield is deep and playing him straight-away, and the infield is the same, except first, second, third, and short are playing him to pull."
-Mike Shannon
more worried about his control than anything I guess
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
i really thought between motte and perez, we traded the wrong guy
but i really like the way motte has turned out. maybe he’s our closer of the future, maybe not. but he’s doing pretty well for the role he’s in right now.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
I'm very impressed with Motte in '10
was worried about him last year though. I think he’ll work out, as long as know one knows what offspeed stuff he is going to throw! and I guy in the ’pen that can hit 99mph is very nice, even if he just ends up being the set up man. I like his chances to be closer though
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
i was worried last year, as well
but he has come around. and it seems, anecdotally, that young guys with 100 mph arms tend to have control problems at the start.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
especially converted catchers who speak to their glove!
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I loved that thing that he did after throwing that high 99mph fastball yesterday
he was hitting his leg 3 times I think, looked really weird
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
they made him try to calm down because he was scaring Yadi
and that was where his development stalled.
also, let us not speak of the goggles.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
pirates just tied it up
sweet lou moseys to the mound.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
is he there yet?
[checks timestamp]
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
awesome!
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
sadly I have no more cheese for grilled cheese
but I just opened up these Señor Edmonds tamales. Apparently a St. Louis product.
I am bemused, but hungry.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I'm quite hungry also
pitas and hummus lately, as I wait 3 weeks for a paycheck. about half way there. my roommate is going to hook me up with some groceries soon though
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
i would love to have some grilled cheese or pitas and hummus
but i am stuck at work with nothing but a lean cuisine. thanks a lot guys.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
is there anything that is possibly a cardinals player's name?
some kind of sauce?
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
i DO have applesauce in my mini fridge
i shall eat some in celebration of the commencement of the game.
"Did you just grow a mustache?"
"While SPINNING."
Whoa, whoa,
you can’t bring applesauce out this early in the game.
I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons
by hazel on May 31, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
While Jaime is pitching you'll just have to eat ice cubes,
either that or pieces of titanium.
I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons
d'oh
I'll leave this to Lao Tzu
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 31, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
In Houston today, Oswalt gives up bases loaded 2bl to Dunn
Gets tossed by home plate umpire with 3-2 count on the next batter, Willingham.
Roy looked real frustrated today.
Could be because he is still in Houston for some reason.
I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons
by hazel on May 31, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah, I started to write "these days" above,
but that would only be speculation, since I don’t see him but about once a year here on the East Coast. I can only imagine he’d rather be somewhere else.
Albert montage on fsm
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
jebus, they're showing his 3HR in 2004
it looks exactly the same. he looks exactly the same.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I think his upper body is a little bigger.
Or maybe his waist was just smaller then.
You can read it in any tone you like.

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