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2010 Draft Preview Number Ten: Movers and Shakers

Possibly the best draft ever.

I'm writing this ahead of time, so I don't have a clue how the Padres game turned out. That being said, I'm choosing to be optimistic, so how about that game last night? Man, no way in the world would I have ever expected the Cardinals to do that. And trading for Mat Latos in the middle of the game, only to use him to pitch the eleventh and thirteenth innings, thus making him the Grover Cleveland of the pitching world? Inspired! 

So I think now we can all agree that not only is the Cards' recent slump over, but they're clearly prohibitive favourites to win the World Series. In fact, I would go so far as to say after witnessing that performance last night, there's really no reason to play the rest of the season. The next four months are just delaying the inevitable. Trophy ceremony is Friday, people! Don't be late. 

Okay, so that's out of the way now. On to the draft stuff. We're only about two weeks out, and players are beginning to separate out a bit. A couple notes real quick: 

Andy Seiler has the Cards taking Bryce Brentz in his most recent mock. I would probably be okay with that. 

Keith Law has the Cardinals selecting Matt Harvey. (Subscription required) I would be thrilled with Harvey, but I think he goes earlier than this. 

John Sickels has a new draft board up (based on his own rankings, not who he thinks will actually be picked where), and has Bryce Brentz rated at #25. Not that that means anything in terms of of actual draft position, but having him rated in the general range of the Cards' pick is certainly interesting, at the very least. 

Star-divide

This week I want to look at three players who have made a significant move up since the beginning of draft season, guys who began the spring with middling status but have shot up the board into high pick consideration. 

Kolbrin Vitek, 2B/3B, Ball State University

6'3", 195 lbs

DOB: 1st April, 1989

Player Page

So, what's so great about this guy? 

It's a thin crop of position players this year, but Vitek has played himself into the very top of the heap with an outstanding junior campaign. He came into the season an intriguing talent with a nice power/ speed combo, but wasn't all that well known due in large part to his playing off the beaten track of the big baseball schools. Now, though, he's been projected as high as ninth overall, as the Padres have been reported to have great interest in Vitek's talents. 

Vitek has tools to spare, beginning with great hands which allow him to spray line drives to all parts of the park. He's shown good power with aluminum bats, but there is some question whether or not he'll show over the fence power as a pro with wood bats. Even if he doesn't, there's every reason to believe he should have plenty of pop in his bat, if only of the gap variety. He has good speed as well, swiping 17 bags in 50 games his sophomore season and being clocked as fast as 6.6 in the 60. Vitek's arm is a plus, as he has thrown as hard as 92 off the mound in college. 

Up until this season, Vitek played almost exclusively at third base, but has moved over to second this year. He's got plenty of arm for third, but I personally think his athleticism and footwork are plenty good to remain at second base. His offensive ceiling would obviously play much better at second, where his potential shoots off the charts. 

The biggest knock on Vitek is the level of competition he's faced in college, as he plays in the MAC rather than a big-time power conference. Still, he's performed well against any and all opponents, and I expect him to continue doing so in his pro career. Vitek wasn't a player I really thought of as an option for the Cardinals in this draft, but if he's available at 25, he might represent an outstanding fit. He reminds me a little of Drew Stubbs, only on the infield instead of the outfield. (He also doesn't have the serious strikeout issue Stubbs does; another point in Vitek's favour.) 

Brett Eibner, RHP/OF, University of Arkansas

6'4", 210 lbs

DOB: 2nd December, 1988

Player Page

So, what's so great about this guy? 

Brett Eibner represents the conundrum all teams face when trying to scout two-way players: his athleticism and talent is easy to see, but projecting what he could do while focusing on just one side of the ball is much more difficult. 

It's still unclear where Eibner's future lays exactly, as teams and scouts are still largely divided on what his best fit ultimately may be. For my money, I like him better as a pitcher, where he's shown a fastball up to 94 and the ability to spin a pretty good slider. His delivery is also a plus as far as I'm concerned, as it looks easy and natural and explosive. 

As a position player, Eibner projects pretty well also, with good speed and fair power potential. He has a long, loopy swing I'm not overly fond of, and has struggled badly with pitch recognition. Of course, the fact he's relatively raw at so many of the finer points of the game on both sides of the ball is largely due to the fact he has yet to commit to one or the other. 

Coming out of high school, Eibner was drafted in the fourth round by the Houston Astros, who wanted him to pitch. Eibner himself preferred to enter pro ball as a position player, and ended up not signing with the 'Stros. Whether he still insists on hitting could very well make a big difference where he's drafted this year, though his evident talent will certainly get him taken fairly early on. If he were to commit publicly to pitching, I would think he could easily go in the top 20 picks, particularly to a team that values athleticism in their pitchers. (For whatever it may be worth, Seiler has Eibner going to the Cubs in his latest mock, as Chicago has been willing to take pitchers with great athleticism and unconventional backgrounds before. It makes sense, especially is Eibner seems willing to stick on the mound.) 

Kellin Deglan, C, Langley High School (British Columbia)

6'2", 200 lbs

DOB: 3rd June, 1992

So, what's so great about this guy? 

Deglan has been on the radar for a couple years now as a catching prospect with a sweet left-handed swing and a strong arm behind the plate, but he was seen as a likely college player due to his very slight build. That perception has changed this year, as Deglan has put on a substantial amount of weight, filling in his gangly frame. He still has room for a bit more projection, too, but has already matured enough to ensure he'll likely hear his name called early in the draft. 

Deglan is the top prep school position player in the draft this year, and is unusually toolsy for a catcher. He projects to hit for both average and at least average power, thanks to a well-leveraged and balanced swing to go along with excellent hands. In fact, his swing has garnered him a few comparisons to Joe Mauer, thought that seems both hyperbolic and unfair to the kid at this point. The mere fact anyone has even thought of such a lofty projection, though, should give you at least a fair idea of how high Deglan's ceiling just might be with the bat. 

Behind the plate, he shows a strong arm, but is still learning to consistently work his feet and release point. I haven't been able to find substantial video of him playing catcher, and the rest of his defensive skills are rarely mentioned in scouting reports, so I have to assume they're decent enough for high schooler but will need plenty of development to become useful skills. 

Drafting high school catchers is a tricky business; for every Mauer or Molina there are a hundred others who never manage to bring such a tough package of tools together properly. At the very least, any team looking to draft a catcher from the prep ranks early in the draft needs to be willing to treat the player as both a long-term investment and project, rather than looking to fill a hole within a couple years. Of all the catchers in this draft, though, high school or collegiate, Deglan could very well represent the highest ultimate ceiling down the road somewhere. Just don't expect it to be soon. 

*One final note: one player I've already covered, Stetson Allie, has been one of the biggest movers up draft boards in recent weeks. Teams are buying into him as a starter more and more, as he seems to have taken a step forward with his command and delivery as the high school season has gone on. He now looks to be a lock for the top half of the first round. 

The Baron's Playlist for the 26th of May, 2010 

"Make Your Own Kind of Music" - Cass Elliot (my own little tribute to the last of Lost)

"Streetwalker" - Delta Spirit

"I Know We Have to Be Apart" - Bicycles

"Until the Day" - Key

"You Are an Airplane" - Of Montreal

"Oh, Bessie!" - The Teeth

Comment 492 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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hooray! early post.

this is great stuff, as always, RB.

"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."

by tom s. on May 26, 2010 3:13 AM EDT reply actions  

Ketiv Nirblok?

it works both ways, about as well.

"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."

by tom s. on May 26, 2010 4:54 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Ketiv Nirblok

even better in reverse!

"...and pujols has given st louis the lead"
The Best Defensive Play I Have Seen in Person

follow me on teh twitterz @greenfieldt

by tgreenfield on May 26, 2010 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Huh. This must be the super-secret mods only section.

And here I thought I just published this to the front page.

Death needs time for what it kills to grow in.

by the red baron on May 26, 2010 3:52 AM EDT reply actions  

p.s. on my personal playlist now - "linin' track" by leadbelly.

thought you’d enjoy it.

"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."

by tom s. on May 26, 2010 4:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's a good one.

My personal favourite Leadbelly tracks are probably the version of “Midnight Special” with the backing vocals, “Ella Speed”, and maybe his version of “Goodnight Irene”, which may be the best version of that song ever recorded. “Diggin’ My Potatoes” is a fun one as well; one of the filthier examples of the double entendre song you’re likely to hear this side of a Ruth Wallis revue.

Death needs time for what it kills to grow in.

by the red baron on May 26, 2010 5:08 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I have

a vinyl Leadbelly album or two, not new so scratchy, but still great stuff, plus the other old artists.

by kkkkathmandubirdsview on May 26, 2010 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

FWIW

I never really rated leadbelly that much. I think I have a CD or two of his knocking around, but always found his voice quite rough (not in a good way) and his guitar playing less interesting than some of his contemporaries. Goodnight Irene is a fine song, however.

The best version of Diggin My Potatoes/Tomatoes I’ve personally heard is, I think, the Sonny Terry/Brownie McGhee one.

Chris Carpenter doesn't give a fuck about your fantasy team.

by Felonius_Monk on May 27, 2010 7:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'll spoil it ;)

Anyway, I’m not sure TLR could handle having a genuine 2B/RHP in the organization…

The umpire in that Kolbrin clip is horrible.

Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers

by SleepyCA on May 26, 2010 4:22 AM EDT reply actions  

SO what about a guy like Kellin Deglan in the first

Then Dace Kim in the second? Or is the second to high for Kim?

The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun

by mob16151 on May 26, 2010 6:42 AM EDT reply actions  

There's no way Vitek gets to us...

unless we move up in the dra……oh, right, you can’t trade picks in the MLB Amateur Draft. Because that would make no sense…or something.

Vitek’s been pretty much linked to the Padres at this point unless David Eckstein’s ridiculous May has changed their mind about not having a legit 2B in the entire organization. His line drive bat would play well in PetCo as well.

I don’t see Eibner falling to us either, unless he demands to be an outfielder, in which case I really don’t want him anyway. His future is on the mound.

Just say no to high school catchers with “high upside”. Most of them burn out and we’ve already been lucky with 3 in the last 10 years (Molina, Anderson, and turning Motte into a pitcher).

I guess I would be ok with Brentz in the first round, but he just seems like a Pete Kozma type pick all over again. Scouts divided on him, stock dropping in the last 2 months, poor plate discipline. We already have a plethora of outfielders similar to him in the minors, so he doesn’t really represent anything that’s going to make a huge impact in the short term. I’d rather roll the dice with Gyorko here if both Harvey and Gausman are already gone.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 9:01 AM EDT reply actions  

I think if we end up with Gausmann or Harvey I'd be happy

I think Gausmann might be my favourite of the two.

Chris Carpenter doesn't give a fuck about your fantasy team.

by Felonius_Monk on May 27, 2010 7:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

unicorns needed

JoeStrauss Hearing that Albert’s right knee bothering him. Explains recent power drag. Heel, back factors, too. #stlcards about 8 hours ago via Echofon

Also Albert’s agent left his agency and all that fun stuff.

But you don’t care about all that. Adam Wainwright was “tense” after the game. Adam, the happiest cyborg on earth. That does not bode well for the man stew. Next time, don’t tour a Navy SEALs facility. Go to the beach.

link.

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on May 26, 2010 9:27 AM EDT reply actions  

first sign of the apocalypse?
Today is the deadline for the Cardinals either to promote Aaron Miles from Double-A Springfield or reach agreement with him to extend his stay there.

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on May 26, 2010 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Welcome back

>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez

by TBender on May 26, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

My silver lining

Wainwright was downright filthy last night.

My non-silver lining

The whole offense stunk (minus albert’s singles I guess), but colby’s K’s are starting to wear on me

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on May 26, 2010 9:27 AM EDT reply actions  

Last night was yet another example of why pitching "wins" and "losses" are silly.

Adam Wainwright threw 7 innings, gave up 4 hits, walked 1, struck out 12, and gave up 1 run. Yet, according to the rules of baseball, he is a “loser.”

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on May 26, 2010 9:28 AM EDT reply actions  

somebody has to lose

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on May 26, 2010 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

A pitcher does not; a team does.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on May 26, 2010 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sort of the way the game is played...

I guess we cud forgo wins and loses and declare whoever has the best SABR stats wins…
:=8/

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

We don't need to declare a starting pitcher a "winner," "loser," or "no decisioner" at all.

We could just look at how good his performance was.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on May 26, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

By that same token...

..we cud say the same about each team. A team doesn’t win or lose its division, only cownt how good it played. Whichever team played ‘the best’ can be declared winner, no World Series needed.

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's a pretty stupid argument, man

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

A team's W/L is how a team actually performed. It explains the team's performance

A pitcher’s W/L says nothing about how the pitcher actually performed

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I Udderstand that;

what I’m saying is you can expand on that logic and cowpletely change the game if you want, where is the line drawn?

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

When it stops making sense.

i.e. your bizarro-divisonal-standings-with-no-World-Series idea.

by chalk on May 26, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

The line is drawn at "team performance" vs. "individual performance"

Wainwright wins that game nearly 95% of the time with that type of performance. The Cardinal offense loses that game 100% of the time with their performance, but I don’t see a big fucking “L” hung on Colby’s statistics for striking out with the bases loaded and one out or grounding into a double play.

It works in other sports too. Kobe Bryant threw up a 38/7/10 last night in a loss. Did Kobe lose the game? No, his teammates couldn’t make a shot to save their lives. The difference is that Bryant doesn’t get an “L” on his stat sheet. Wainwright does. He didn’t lose the game, the offense did — so why does he get the loss?

Let’s also not pretend that this doesn’t matter and that it’s just “semantics”. Bert Blyleven lost 9 games 1-0 in his career. Add those to his career win total and it sits at 296. My guess is that he’d have been a first ballot HOFer if he had 300 wins. Had Blyleven thrown for the Yankees from 1970 – 1990 he’s probably have 320-340 wins. It’s stupid to blame him and his legacy because his team was inept at mustering any offense whatsoever.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

And That's Why...

…I don’t put much into a pitcher’s win-loss record either, because of the context. But I acknowledge, for good or ill, that a pitcher’s 1-0 loss is still cownted as a loss.

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

*starts slow clap*

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on May 26, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm Very Sorry...

…that you all have sad faces because Wainy got tagged with a loss yesterday in spite of pitching really, really well. but I have no control of that, honestly. Why not simply ignore it and talk about cow well he pitched?

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Like your puns, it is something that must be tolerated.

However, that doesn’t mean we can’t debate whether it’s just. How else would rules change?

by chalk on May 26, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

FWIW

I happen to agree, in principle, that it was horrible line drawn. but for good or ill Baseball is very, very rooted in tradition. Some change, but moost have stayed. i don;t see the rules for wins and losses changed anytime soon, but good luck to your cowllective grassroots organization.

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why aren't quarterbacks hung with losses?

The W-L goes to the team in every other major American sport.

You can read it in any tone you like.

by spants on May 26, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Except Hockey

Which treats goalies like pitchers (GAA, W-L records, etc.)

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

True...

Good point.

You can read it in any tone you like.

by spants on May 26, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

WHat about Bowling?

EVERYBODY forgets about bowling!!!!
:=8O

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, why do people do this for hockey but not soccer?

Odd

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

soccer isn't really hung up on stats at all

probably because it’s intrinsically a team game and it’s quite difficult to generate any meaningful data. Outside of the USA, no-one even cares about assists. Goals and shutouts/clean sheets for keepers are about all that’s counted.

Chris Carpenter doesn't give a fuck about your fantasy team.

by Felonius_Monk on May 27, 2010 7:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

I thought they did that

but I know nothing about hockey

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on May 26, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Clearly I'm an idiot.

Still, you never hear about W-L with quarterbacks. It’s all about QB rating and completion/interceptions and sacks.

You can read it in any tone you like.

by spants on May 26, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hear about it....

…but as a Raiders fan u can’t but get beat over the head about JaFatass Russell’s W-L record with da Raiders.

But yeah, QBs tend to get the moost blame (along with the head coach), even without the stat

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

And even if it's clearly the defense's fault.

It is a totally different game, though. The time-management is such a huge factor.

You can read it in any tone you like.

by spants on May 26, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

plus....

as the steroid issue has shown us, no one really cares about football stats.

by Willie McGee's Twin on May 26, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure it is

I bet I can find Kobe Bryant’s “record” as a Laker too, but not on his player card. I can find the W-L statistic on every pitcher’s player card or profile dating back to the existence of box scores and even before that.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously

you have issues with the sport’s founder, Abner Doubleday.

>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez

by TBender on May 26, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have no issues with Doubleday

because he clearly didn’t invent baseball.

“When the legend and the facts differ, print the legend!!” — Robert Wuhl

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hook. Line. Sinker.

>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez

by TBender on May 26, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

?

This, also, doesn’t make sense.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was being sarcastic about Doubleday, and you took the bait.

W-L record has been around forever (like the Doubleday myth). It’s not going to go away as a statistic. Ergo, the railing against it being a statistic is pointless. Stick to promoting better statistics instead of bashing one that’s been around longer.

(Dear Cardinals, please start scoring runs again so we can avoid talking about the merits of 150 year old statistics because Wainwright pitched a near perfect gem and was assigned the loss.)

>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez

by TBender on May 26, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't care that it's a statistic

but it’s clear that people seem to think it has VALUE because it’s BEEN AROUND FOR 150 YEARS. Which is just ridiculous.

That’s kinda been my point the entire thread.

You clearly aren’t getting the point of this conversation. The stat is fine, but it doesn’t have any significant value — as long as people think it does, I will continue to argue for expunging it from stat sheets for pitchers.

Myself? I don’t even look at W/L records when I’m looking at pitchers. I look at the advanced metrics. Doesn’t matter whether it’s there or not.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

HIMYM reference?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

what would his record be if we took away the wins

and gave him losses when he allowed 6 runs – surely he must have had a few of those in his long career? maybe it evens out.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on May 26, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is the whole reason the W/L statistic is worthless:

Many pitchers are receiving wins for games in which they were not good, and if a pitcher plays on a team with a good offense, they will receive more of these that a pitcher who does not. It is a team statistic rewarded or detracted from individual players.

I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons

by hazel on May 26, 2010 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well... yeah, I'd probably agree with that

But it was a comparison of “status quo” mindsets

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

That actually went through my mind as I typed it

But, y’know, go for the gusto

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Usually Food, Babes, and Bad Cow Puns....

…are all that float through mine on any given mooment…

;=8)

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just a smidge...

and thereby get tarred by the same pitch used to cowplain about the baseball rule. A clever ruse, but I have seen it used many times before in the political arena

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I prefer the Chewbacca Defense myself.

Chris Carpenter doesn't give a fuck about your fantasy team.

by Felonius_Monk on May 27, 2010 7:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Adam is just fine.

It’s the team that is a loser.

I didn’t watch most of the game last night since I have to get up early for work. I’m glad. that would have been a heart breaker.

by spfldbird on May 26, 2010 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with you.

Adam Wainwright was more than fine. He was excellent. Dare I say ridiculous? Yet, because of an archaic stat, his baseball card will forever count this performance as a “loss.”

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on May 26, 2010 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

aren't baseball cards archaic in nature?

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on May 26, 2010 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

No way.

Baseball cards will NEVER be archaic.

Especially with the hopefully forthcoming iPad app, so long as it allows for trading

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on May 26, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

yah

indeed

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on May 26, 2010 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Do you get virtual gum as well?

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on May 26, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

He did allow more runs than Garland.

>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez

by TBender on May 26, 2010 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

What about having one unearned run vs. 0 ER?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shouldn't those individual stats actually describe what the individual does?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

How do you feel about RBIs?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

You really believe this "Part of the game" stuff though?

Slavery was just “part of the game” in antebellum society

Nothing would ever be advanced if people think like that

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

How is the point not valid?

Just because it’s part of the game right now doesn’t mean that that’s the way it should be

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

The popint is not valid because they are two disperate topics

baseball has nothing to do with slavery in antebellum society

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's a state of mind, not the topic itself

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

My State of mind is:

if you want to play a certain game, you follow the rules. If not, make up something else. Slavery doesn’t enter into it.

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

It applies perfectly

And they actually DID make up a new country because the South didn’t want to follow the rules

You seriously can’t see how they can be compared?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Any two things can be cowpared...

whether it works as a argument or not is an-udder story

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

This line of argument

is a logical fallacy and doesn’t hold much water under scrutiny.

by mojowo11 on May 26, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can't tell...

…what the “This” is – stupid UP button that doesn’t clarify…
:=8/

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

"It's part of the game"

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

rules and traditions are not the same thing...

…except it is traditional to play by the rules.

(That should generate some moore cowmment!)

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

The W/L rule is not a "rule" in a sense that it (directly) involves the play on the field

It’s simply a type of statistic. And it’s a poorly conceived one, and should not be taken seriously, regardless of whether it has been taken seriously in the past.

The argument from tradition argues that simply because it is how it has been done before, that’s how it should continue to be. Or, as you put it, “It’s part of the game.” That’s simply not a rational line of thinking — if something is broken, it’s not reasonable to say, “Oh well, it’s always been broken, so it should stay that way.” This kind of thinking impedes progress.

by mojowo11 on May 26, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

something that doesn't work well

isn’t necessarily broken. an out-dated computer, for example. it is what it is – there’s no fixing it.

now if you want to say you can update it somewhat, that’s fine. there are several changes they could make to the scoring concerning a win and a loss. they did it for saves, and it’s something worth looking at – for example, if a starter goes 8 and leaves with a lead and the closer allows the game to be tied in the top of the ninth and then the team wins in the bottom, they should give the win to the starter, not the guy who blew the save.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on May 26, 2010 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sort of like when antibiotics were invented,

we kept using leeches and calling witch doctors to exorcise evil spirits because those old things weren’t broken.

This is a tired fallacy: Things that are arbitrarily constructed, inelegantly used, and mostly inaccurate should be discarded.

I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons

by hazel on May 26, 2010 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

umm, so you're sending a new computer?

in any event, i’ve never used leeches, so i’m not sure who the “we” is you refer to – the royal we, i guess.

and who is it gets to play god and decide what should be discarded? that’s probably a matter of personal choice/preference. i don’t care what stats exist or don’t exist unless it somehow affects the game on the field.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on May 26, 2010 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

You've never used leeches?

Holy shit!

That’s the point. Useless things are discarded because they are useless. It’s not playing god- it’s simple analysis of the actual value of the things. The simple fact that so many people can see how flawed W/L is as a pitching statistic is evidence that it should soon join leeching, 8 track tapes, and horseback riding in the annals of history.

I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons

by hazel on May 26, 2010 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

just ignore it

there are people in the world still use leeches, but it doesn’t bother me.

what the hell’s wrong with horseback riding. i’m neither good nor fond of it myself, but i have a niece who loves it.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on May 26, 2010 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

i hope not

i think it’d be illegal where she lives. it’s really just a recreational thing, jumping fences, all that nonsense that i find silly, but to each their own.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on May 26, 2010 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

To each his own indeed.

And I hope your cousin will not come to my town and try to tell me her horse is superior to my car.

I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons

by hazel on May 26, 2010 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

niece

and i do not know your car, but she does have a mighty fine horse. it may indeed be superior – at least if we are talking value.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on May 26, 2010 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

it probably has a larger wang

and, comparatively, that’s what matters, right?

Chris Carpenter doesn't give a fuck about your fantasy team.

by Felonius_Monk on May 27, 2010 7:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

i suppose

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on May 27, 2010 7:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

If Wainwright had gotten every single batter out in 8 innings

Except for a play where Matt Holliday lets a fly ball go off his junk, then continues to kick the ball all the way into the LF corner, allowing the batter to score (a rare 4-base error), Wainwright would have been the “loser”…that’s just fucked up

by jd is legend on May 26, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

And the team should,

because one of its members committed a blunder that brought the collective effort down and helped contribute to the collective loss. Why should a pitcher get a “loss” for the collective effort of his team?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on May 26, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

The height of the pitching mound is in the rules.

It was changed. The rules did not allow for umpires to use instant replay. That changed. There was designated hitter allowed in the rules; that changed. The rules are frequently changed, and sometimes in revolutionary ways (mound height and DH), so I don’t think this argument holds much water.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on May 26, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well then change the rule - write to MLB

until then, its part of the game.

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

stats aren't rules

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on May 26, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, but there are rules which govern

who gets a win or a loss

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

that's a stretch, you can't pick and choose

what rules you want to follow when creating stats.

If unearned runs don’t count for the pitcher they shouldn’t be counted for the team either! Can’t fault an entire team if a player makes a game losing error.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on May 26, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm Not Creating Stats...

…MLB is. And they say Wainy lost that game. Take it up with them, not me.

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

you can't defend their stance and

pass the buck to them.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on May 26, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just did

This is the game.

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

that may be the game all day long

but that’s not the point you were arguing at all until you ran out of defense.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on May 26, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

And those rules are absolutely absurd.

I am expressing grassroots opposition right now to the rules on a relatively public forum. This tends to be how these types of things start and spread. The problem with pitching “wins,” “losses,” and “no decisions” has long been discussed and we are continuing the discussion. The stat may continue to exist, but discussions like this will undoubtedly erode its prominence. I would argue that this has already happened to a certain degree, as evidenced by Zach Greinke’s Cy Young award. Sure, Burwell may still use it as the end-all, be-all of pitching statistics, but most folks don’t any longer. And, what’s more, I don’t think that citing to the rule book is a good way to deflect criticism of the rule.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on May 26, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

well, that's not circular at all!

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on May 26, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

winner and loser mean certain things under baseball rules -

you’re conflating “winner” or a “win” under baseball rules with “winner” or “win” (or really, what your preferred definition of those words is) outside of baseball. Relatedly, you have a problem with others that conflate the two (the “media,” un-SABR friendly fans, etc.).

I agree that perhaps they could have chosen a different word to describe what makes a “winning” pitcher, or they could have made different rules to decide what makes one. But they didn’t. And it really doesn’t matter that the rulemakers didn’t (unlike, say, slavery).

But until then, you can solve the problem by recognizing that whether a pitcher “wins” or “loses” under the rules of baseball for a certain game, doesn’t necessarily mean they pitched well or poorly. It really allows for a release of hostility about this issue.

by Willie McGee's Twin on May 26, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions   3 recs

This

>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez

by TBender on May 26, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

rec'd

Chris Carpenter doesn't give a fuck about your fantasy team.

by Felonius_Monk on May 27, 2010 7:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Our boys are doing an excellent job

of giving the Cy Young to someone not named Wainwright. At this rate, he’s going to end up like 17-10 with a 2.25 ERA and lose the Cy to Jimenez who goes 23-4 with a 2.60 ERA

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

But if you go by W-L record

Carlos Silva is 6-0!

Actually, he’s almoost a full point of WAR already…

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

So

we could move to quality starts stats for pitchers, which they and their agents would love, but unless anyone thinks differently, including us, Ws are what we are interested in, ergo…W-L etc. Or we could just forget it, and look at FPix or whatever, like Felonius, and not get bothered by the Ws and Ls. I don’t think so.

by kkkkathmandubirdsview on May 26, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Addendum

the problem is, it is so unfair to the pitcher, who pitches brilliantly….for limited support. The crux of the problem

by kkkkathmandubirdsview on May 26, 2010 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

there is a lot out of his control

by the same token, he has more control over the outcome of the game than any other single player on the field, which was probably recognized since the advent of the game, and how/why wins/losses were awarded to him in the very first place.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on May 26, 2010 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

And now that we know much more clearly how many things he does not control,

and more clearly how flawed the statistic is, we can stop relying on it to tell us things which it obviously fails to tell us, like whether a pitcher pitched well or not.

I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons

by hazel on May 26, 2010 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

But at least it is not bullpen- and lineup-dependent.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on May 26, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

Why do we use FIP and xFIP instead of ERA? Because FIP and xFIP (and tRA) attempt to model how good a pitcher is independent from the rest of his team.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I quite like QS

as far as somewhat arbitrary, dirty, at-a-glance stats go, I think it pretty much does what it purports to do reasonably well. I realise i’m probably in the minority here, though.

Chris Carpenter doesn't give a fuck about your fantasy team.

by Felonius_Monk on May 27, 2010 7:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

i like FPix

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on May 26, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like dog sick.

Chris Carpenter doesn't give a fuck about your fantasy team.

by Felonius_Monk on May 27, 2010 7:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Did you watch the game?

Because, if you did, I don’t see any way that you could honestly be telling me that Wainwright did not pitch better than Garland last night. The two starters each threw seven innings. Wainwright struck out nearly twice as many batters, 12 to 7. Wainwright gave up fewer hits, 4 to Garland’s 6. He walked fewer batters, too. This is reflected in the Game Score stat. Wainwright’s Game Score for last night was 76; Garland’s was 70. Although, I guess Wainwright did bat, so he should have hit a home run to get the “No Deccision” which is another aspect of the pitching “wins” and “losses” stat that is silly.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on May 26, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

game score was 1-0

Wainwright was awesome, but the fact that Garland gave up zero runs means he pitched better. There were a couple well hit balls by the cardinals that became outs, but there were also a few by the padres that became outs

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on May 26, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

No, it doesn't

Maybe it means the Cards’ offense was worse. Maybe it means Garland got luckier. It doesn’t mean he was better.

by chalk on May 26, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

he gave up zero runs

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on May 26, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

BABIP could be part of that

Or some type of other luck, or he might have legitimately been the better pitcher.

W/L doesn’t explain any of that

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh my god

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on May 26, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Home runs and flyballs.

Since pitchers tend not to have control over which flyballs they allow become home runs, you are telling me that Garland pitched better than Wainwright because he got luckier. The phrase is something along the lines of, “It’s better to be lucky than good” and, last night, Garland and the Padres demonstrated that. Even so, it doesn’t mean Garland performed better than Wainwright.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on May 26, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

so we know which pitcher to give the win to

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on May 26, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can't tell if you're just messing with us or not anymore

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes and no

I understand the points of contention, but W/L is just part of the game. It’s not always fair, but what in life is?

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on May 26, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bodacious BBQ from Gladewater, TX.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on May 26, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Driftwood, not Austin.

>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez

by TBender on May 26, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

wOBA

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on May 26, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

And why do we care about that?

Personally I think it should be Colby Rasmus for striking out swinging with a man on 3rd and 1 out in the 1st inning. The game was lost right there.

Damn you Colby, you’ll never be anything with a 0-1 record.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on May 26, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think his goal is to break Reynolds' season record

he’s only 15 behind Reynolds’ pace as of now.
(I just wish he also had 11 HR and 36 RBI)

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on May 26, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

wainwright was lucky on few well struck balls last night

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on May 26, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Go look at the LOB numbers and get back to me on who was the better pitcher.

The Cardinals suck at getting a run in from third with 1 out.

You can read it in any tone you like.

by spants on May 26, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you meant

The Cardinals suck at getting a run in from third with 1 out.

Cardinals Baseball 2010...Catch the Infection!

by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on May 26, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

dammit

The Cardinals suck at getting a runs in from third with 1 out

Cardinals Baseball 2010...Catch the Infection!

by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on May 26, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Should have pitched better...

Gave up a home run, would have given up more in a smaller ballpark.

Beyond that, I don’t think you can separate a pitcher’s performance from an opposing pitcher. Same strike zone by the umpire, same local weather conditions.

The other guy bore down and struck players out when he got into trouble. Wainwright struck out a lot, but also threw a few meatballs that got walloped.

If you consider baseball nothing more than batters hooked up to random number generators, you’d be right. But they are not. Wainwright was just plain outpitched. Therefore he deserves a loss.

by DiscoJer on May 26, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well

If the Cardinals offense had done better, then Wainwright is the winner, so it makes sense that something 99% out of his control should have a significant bearing on his stats.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on May 26, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

i was talking to my buddy last night all through the game

and he believes that if said “loser” had a QS, then there should be no loss given in a game if the loss would go to said starter that had a QS. under this rule, QS would be revised to 7+ IP and 3- ER, as goold suggested earlier this month.

by stlcardinalsfang on May 26, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

i would say yes

simply because if you’re taken out after 6 IP, 1 ER you probably threw too many pitches to be considered “dominant” for the game.

however, you do have a point with it possibly being more deserving then 7 IP, 3 ER. however, the difference between 6 and 7 innings pitched is one i believe is pretty large, as it allows teams to skip straight to their best bullpen pitchers instead of having to use any middle relief.

by stlcardinalsfang on May 26, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's still an arbitrary stat

Based on HOW you define it rather than simply explaining who the best pitcher was

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes...

but it’s better than the current arbitrary stat we use.

by stlcardinalsfang on May 26, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I mean, I guess

But why not just do away with it altogether? Can’t we usually tell by the box score who pitched better?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

RBI's of course!

Cardinals Baseball 2010...Catch the Infection!

by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on May 26, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

perhaps it would help

to understand that a W or L under baseball rules is not “arbitrary” at all. Indeed, it is the opposite of arbitrary, because it is determined under rigid rules independent of whim or prejudice.

This disconnect explains about 80% of this thread’s argument.
  

by Willie McGee's Twin on May 26, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not arbitrary in how they are meted out

But arbitrary in how it is designed. “You have to satisfy this, this, and this” is an arbitrary ruling by the inventor of the statistic

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

as can be said for the inventor of any stat

wOBA doesn’t tell you everything about a player’s offensive game, but it gives you a lot of information. whoever came up with it measured it in his own unique way.

same with the belief that productive outs don’t really exist, because a guy did a study and arbitrarily defined what is a productive out, then found they really don’t do much for WE. however, if we changed the definition, the data would change, and we’d see a different correlation between productive outs and WE. there are most certainly productive outs – even a 15-pitch at-bat to lead off the game that ends in an out i would argue is productive. it has increased your chances of making it a short night for the pitcher, and thus get into the bullpen, and if it occurs in the first of a three game series, could have further impact in the following games. now if it is not taken advantage of, you could argue it wasn’t very productive, but then the same can be said of a leadoff triple in which the runner is stranded.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on May 26, 2010 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

We are still dealing with objective evidence and actual events.

Sure, I could manipulate the recording of data to say that anyone who hits an RBI is a Nazi who punches babies for fun, but the person who records that RBI as a statistic that helps win games is going to have a better idea of how good baseball players are relative to one another, while my Nazi baby punching statistic will tell me nothing.

The same is true for your preposterous new productive out theory: Sure, you can say that outs are productive, but the point is that an out, no matter how productive, is still not as good as a hit. A person who says that productive outs are great and runs his team accordingly will win fewer games than a manager who thinks that hits are great and tries to make his players get hits instead of productive outs.

I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons

by hazel on May 26, 2010 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

as i said, we probably have different definitions of productive outs

i didn’t realize i was proposing a new theory, but hey, the world is round was preposterous too. thanks.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on May 26, 2010 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your team will win less games,

using productive outs instead of hits. It’s called objective reality, and your wishy-washy hippie anti-intellectualism cannot disprove that simply through faulty analogies.

I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons

by hazel on May 26, 2010 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

i'm not saying i would actively try to make outs

in order to produce offense. merely that there are outs i consider productive, such as the example of the leadoff hitter. i wouldn’t tell him to make an out after 15 pitches – i’d hope he got a hit – but i wouldn’t consider his ab “wasted” and the equivalent of the next batter popping out on the first pitch.

in fact, i’m not real fond of all the sac bunting tony does.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on May 26, 2010 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's a perfectly fine position to take.

You simply should have adopted it earlier instead of saying:

wOBA doesn’t tell you everything about a player’s offensive game, but it gives you a lot of information. whoever came up with it measured it in his own unique way.

same with the belief that productive outs don’t really exist, because a guy did a study and arbitrarily defined what is a productive out, then found they really don’t do much for WE. however, if we changed the definition, the data would change, and we’d see a different correlation between productive outs and WE.

wOBA isn’t a good statistic simply because its creator manipulated WE to make it look good. It’s a good statistic because it is a very accurate measure of a player’s offensive contribution. Productive outs as they are currently defined are a terrible waste of outs, and they do not incorporate 15 pitch ABs that you are talking about. The statistic could be refined, then, to take more information into account, but that doesn’t mean everything we are dealing with is simply open to interpretation.

I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons

by hazel on May 26, 2010 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

i never related WE and wOBA

i think wOBA is a very good stat. it’s probably the first offensive stat i look at for a player comparison. i merely said that wOBA measures what the creator wanted it to measure, which is somewhat subjective vis a vis what he thinks is valuable offensively. i tend to agree with him, but it doesn’t change that it’s arbitrary in a sense.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on May 26, 2010 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree with this:
i merely said that wOBA measures what the creator wanted it to measure, which is somewhat subjective vis a vis what he thinks is valuable offensively.

You make it sound like the guy just randomly picked a set of things to measure and slapped it up on the board and shouted “I’ve done it!!!”. This is not Frankenstein’s monster we’re talking about here.

The creator isn’t arbitrarily picking things to put into his formula. He’s valuing each and every offensive outcome as to how they relate to runs scored and then winding it all up into a “score” that makes it easy for the layman to compare players within each season, and when comparing to league average for each season, to compare players across multiple seasons.

It’s not good because some guy randomly decided to measure certain variables and that those variables accidentally happened to be the best way to determine offensive value. It’s good because careful evaluation was done to determine the run value of each possible outcome.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 27, 2010 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

wishy-washy hippie anti-intellectualism

is something i never imagined to be tied to. but i do like to think of myself as well-rounded, so it’s somewhat refreshing. your comment will serve me well – i can point to it to refute claims of those who accuse me of just the opposite.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on May 28, 2010 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

I think I may have been accused of that before, I’m more in the middle IMO

I'll leave this to Lao Tzu

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 28, 2010 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

How is it not arbitrary?

It’s the definition of arbitrary — because it doesn’t tell you whether the pitcher won or lost the game but whether the TEAM won or lost the game. You glean nothing about the pitcher’s performance from the statistic at all.

Def: based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of something

How is the W/L statistic not “convenient rather than by the intrinsic nature”? Explain.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

because whether a pitcher is assigned a win or loss

is NOT determined by individual preference or convenience. It is determined by whether the pitcher met (or did not meet) clearly defined, objective criteria.

In any event, IMO, the whole argument is silly and pointless because a “win” as an individual statistic for a pitcher cannot equal a “win” for a team, and there is no possible way to reconcile that disconnect.

The only conceivable way to solve the problem (at least for those who just can’t reconcile in their head that the same word can have two definitions) is:

1. To start calling individual “wins” and “losses” something else.
2. To stop keeping the stat.

Perhaps these will happen in the future, perhaps not.

But to continually point out, ad nauseum, that “wins” and “losses” are not necessarily a good indicator of the pitcher’s individual performance is both obvious and pretty boring.

by Willie McGee's Twin on May 26, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

If it's that obvious, then why have we had this massive subthread about it?!

This whole day was for naught!

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

damn west coast games...

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on May 26, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

But to continually point out, ad nauseum, that "wins" and "losses" are not necessarily a good indicator of the pitcher’s individual performance is both obvious and pretty boring.

Then why do we have a number of poster’s in this sub-thread continuing to state that it has “value”?

The problem here is that a team “wins” a game an a pitcher is assigned the “win” in every game that is “won”. Even though one has nothing to do with the other. I don’t see game winning homers rewarded with a W and game ending strikeouts given an L. As you say, you could call it something else but that messes with tradition, and we’re just not going to have any of that stuff!

If people want to keep the statistic, fine, I don’t care one way or the other what you do personally. But if you’re voting for an award and continue to rank pitchers by wins and losses you should lose your vote. Period.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

The problem here is that a team "wins" a game an a pitcher is assigned the "win" in every game that is "won". Even though one has nothing to do with the other. I don’t see game winning homers rewarded with a W and game ending strikeouts given an L. As you say, you could call it something else but that messes with tradition, and we’re just not going to have any of that stuff!

This is exactly what I was saying. A “win” by a team, and a “win” by the pitcher just aren’t the same thing (and can never be). I don’t think there is anyone here who does not recognize this obvious point. The primary disconnect in this thread is that there is a group of people who are bothered by the fact that the two concepts have the same name (e.g., you) and some other group of people who aren’t particualrly bothered by this (like me).

Also, whether pitcher wins have “value” or should have “value” really depends on how you define value. Are they the best measure, or even a good one, of how good a pitcher is? No, not really. Do “wins” have any value at all in that regard? Probably none in a single instance, but at least some when a pitcher has accumulated enough of them. Do they have “value” in other respects? One could say they have value because pitchers themselves value them, their agents value them, the media values, baseball history values them, etc. etc. Whether these people should value wins is circular (should you value something that other people value merely because it then has value, etc.).

I said the whole thing was boring because this site beats this dead horse about “wins don’t tell you how good a pitcher is” every couple of weeks.

by Willie McGee's Twin on May 26, 2010 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would suggest
I said the whole thing was boring because this site beats this dead horse about "wins don’t tell you how good a pitcher is" every couple of weeks.

That if this bothers you so much you just skip through the conversation then.

Instead you decide to parse what everyone is saying and then argue semantically about what the words “win” and “value” mean. If anything is boring, it’s that.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 27, 2010 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

The "win" as to relief pitchers is arbitrary.

At least as I read the rule:

c) The official scorer shall not credit as the winning pitcher a relief pitcher who is ineffective in a brief appearance, when at least one succeeding relief pitcher pitches effectively in helping his team maintain its lead. In such a case, the official scorer shall credit as the winning pitcher the succeeding relief pitcher who was most effective, in the judgment of the official scorer.
Rule 10.17© Comment: The official scorer generally should, but is not required to, consider the appearance of a relief pitcher to be ineffective and brief if such relief pitcher pitches less than one inning and allows two or more earned runs to score (even if such runs are charged to a previous pitcher). Rule 10.17(b) Comment provides guidance on choosing the winning pitcher from among several succeeding relief pitchers.

The Official Scorer gets to determine who, in his or her judgment, was most “effective” as a relief pitcher in the game and then give that pitcher the “win.” This is subject to both whim and prejudice.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on May 26, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was actually waiting for him to define what he meant

and then I was going to bring this up, but you beat me to it. Actually, the official scorer can arbitrarily choose whether a Win is applied to a starting pitcher as well. A starter can be awarded a “win” after 4 innings if the scorer determines he successfully “won” the game.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

My point was related to a starting pitcher getting or not getting a win...

in the situation like Waino last night, which is the example which started this whole “how is it fair to give Waino a loss?” discussion.

Also, if we’re going to quibble, the above rule does not make the decision “arbitrary.” There is a standard by which the official scorer must make the decision, thus giving him discretion in applying the standard. So, the standard is not arbitrary, and the fact that the decisionmaker has discretion does not make his decision necessarily arbitrary. It’s possible for an offical scorer to determine the the winner arbitrarily (say, by intentionally flouting the standard and choosing a pitcher who was not “effective” in any way) but such examples, if they exist at all, are exceedingly rare and don’t effect my broader point.

by Willie McGee's Twin on May 26, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think this is one of the huge problems with

W/L. I mean, assuming you HAVE to draw one, where do you draw the line?

A long, long time ago, someone “drew the line” and defined the winner/loser how it is currently used. And people have pointed out how this particular stat is misleading, dumb, etc.

For some reason, they have to hang a W and L on someone for EACH game, so where do you draw the line? And in the end, it’s all arbitrary when you’re trying to boil down a 9 inning game played by at least 18 players into ONE person taking primary “credit” or “blame” for the outcome.

by goodymobb on May 26, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

You don't HAVE to draw such a line.

It’s a silly stat that attempts to apply the ultimate team stat to an individual pitching performance. In no way does it reflect the quality of the pitcher’s start that game. It ascribes to the pitcher the quality of his club’s offensive production for that day and the quality of his bullpen’s performance. It should not be a stat.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on May 26, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I get it

but as I said, “for some reason” it’s used. I just don’t seeing Selig and the HoF Vets Committee and the MLBPA and anyone else who would be involved coming out and saying “Alright guys, let’s just stop counting Wins and Losses for pitchers….GO!”

by goodymobb on May 26, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree.

But, that doesn’t mean that we can’t get to a point where people don’t use it. It will still be on Baseball-Reference (because, after all, what isn’t on B-R?), but, hopefully, in our lifetimes I won’t have ignorant sports columnists decrying Cy Young results because so-and-so had 21 wins!

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on May 26, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think what you would need

would be big-time pitchers coming out opposing W/L and maybe offering up something else as a more informative alternative.

Like maybe a guy has a ridiculous year and gets jobbed out of a Cy largely b/c his team sucked and he didn’t accumulate the Ws…then this guy goes on a PR campaign talking about how Wins are stupid and look at how much better I was, etc., etc. That’s where it would have to START.

SABR-inclined bloggers, sportswriters, et al. aren’t likely to have the clout to even get it moving, IMO. But yeah, it would be good to have more people “get it” and stop relying on archaic stuff.

by goodymobb on May 26, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, it's already been moving to the point

it’s going to evolve completely.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on May 26, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Roger Clemens went 13-8 with a 1.87 ERA in 2005

He finished THIRD in Cy Young voting. That didn’t do much.

by mojowo11 on May 26, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Although technically

By FIP/xFIP type WAR, Carp was better.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on May 26, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right

Look at peripherals.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on May 26, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

or just stop caring so much about the awards

there is nothing more arbitrary than the awarding of these things. and no matter what stats are used, nothing is going to change that. cy and mvp will still be a vote, not a consensus decision made around a conference table by the greatest saber minds in baseball – and ROY is even more arbitrary, because you are comparing pitchers to position players (yes, this is somewhat true for mvp, but not so much)

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on May 26, 2010 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's a horrible line that was drawn and it needs to be corrected.

Do you realize that a reliever can win a game while recording exactly one out but that a starter must go at least 5 innings?

Seriously, if you’re a young kid, you should try to grow up and be a closer because you’ll probably make more money, pitch less, and compile better statistics because you only have to throw one inning in a game in which you’re already ahead to get a save, but you have to throw at least 5 innings, be ahead when you leave, and not have anybody fuck it up for you the rest of the game in order to get a win as a starter.

The rule is based on “expectations” and not “outcomes”. That’s the whole problem with it from the beginning.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

See What Happens... ;=8)

…when you monkey around with new stats? before ‘Saves" relievers were just a bunch of bums who weren’t good enough to be in the starting rotation. Now you can expect to pay 20 mil a season for a ‘closer’.

God forbid the SABR stats figure out which utility infielders are better than udders, and then we’ll start paying them 20 mil a season too!

:=8/

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm just stating that, statistically, starting pitchers get the rawest deal of any player.
  • They can lose a ballgame in 1/3 of an inning, but win it only after 5.
  • They get no credit for in the box score if they leave with the lead and the bullpen somehow relinquishes it.
  • They get a loss if they leave with a runner on 1st and the reliever subsequently allows that runner to score. He didn’t allow the runner to score, the reliever did — but he gets hung with the loss?

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know, I was just being provocative...

But on the udder hoof, cow many relievers are in the HOF cowpared to starters?

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's all due to the game changing

and the creation of the “save” statistic. I don’t think Sutter belongs in the HOF to be honest. I’m dubious as to why Eckersley is there too. I mean — are we going to give Eric Gagne and Bobby Thigpen votes? They had great 3 season stretches saving games too. He’s in because he kinda created the 1 inning “closer” position by being in the right place at the right time for LaRussa to use him in that manner.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

a pitcher gets an out 3 times out of 10 and he's getting lit up

so what you are saying is that we need to get off of Kyle Lohse’s back about his contract, because he deserves that money as retribution of his position getting a raw deal

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on May 26, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

what?

what happened to VEB since last night?

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on May 26, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's not at all what I'm saying

My point is that Wins aren’t dealt out fairly between relievers and starters.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm just trying to cut Lohse some slack any way possible

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on May 26, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

he Needs to Stop Pitching..

…like a Lohser…
:=8/

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I said this backwards

gets an out 3 7 times out of 10 and he’s getting lit up

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on May 26, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

You really gonna bring saves into this?

Not liking wins should coincide with hating rbi’s and saves making you throw up in you mouth just a little

The bible declares an eye for an eye, so, let us now take our vengeance on this murderous ocean. . . You won't be hurting anyone anymore

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on May 26, 2010 1:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Sorry, I was just being silly...

…as I am want to do from time to time…
:=8)

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

wont

You can read it in any tone you like.

by spants on May 26, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

You wanted, you weren't want.

You can read it in any tone you like.

by spants on May 26, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, maybe I want to want, but wont want if I were wont

errr, somethin’ like that…

I need ice cream…

:=8.

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I want you to want me

I need you to need me…

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on May 26, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great...

…now that song is gonna worm around in my head for a day or two…

:=8/

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

As it is wont to do.

You can read it in any tone you like.

by spants on May 26, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

anyone for wontons?

Chris Carpenter doesn't give a fuck about your fantasy team.

by Felonius_Monk on May 27, 2010 7:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

personally, my appetite for them is wanton...

Chris Carpenter doesn't give a fuck about your fantasy team.

by Felonius_Monk on May 27, 2010 7:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

No

No one should care about W-L in any form. It needs to die, not be modified.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on May 26, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

you guys are crazy, man. I like you, but you're crazy

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on May 26, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

i tend to agree

but if it’s going to exist, i would consider using something like this. at least it takes the loss off an undeserving pitcher.

by stlcardinalsfang on May 26, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who cares?

Just ignore W-L and make fun of sportswriters using it for CY decisions and we’re all a much happier people.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on May 26, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

exactly

getting rid of pitchers’ W/L is battle that will never be won.

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on May 26, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

So you say.

Come, Sancho, lets go slay some giants…

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on May 26, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tis a noble goal though

I’d like to think in 50 years, my grandchildren and young children alike will grow up learning the history of baseball, and laugh at the fact that once upon a time grown adults relied primarily on a pitching statistic that was just as dependent on that pitcher’s lineup of hitters as it was his and his defense’s performance on a given night. The laughter of such children at the absurdity of the premise will soothe my soul.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on May 26, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions   5 recs

you mean the geeks are going to take over the world?

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on May 26, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know, right?

I mean, what HAS the scientific community ever contributed to the world?

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on May 26, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm drawing a blank...

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on May 26, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I Thought..

…it was ’the geeks shall inherit the earth"?
;=8)

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did you watch the game?

I know I am being redundant, but I don’t see how any fan of baseball could watch last night’s game and assert that Wainwright did not pitch better than Jon Garland.

Furthermore, this does nothing to refute that pitching “wins” and “losses” are silly in their arbitrariness. Both pitchers left the game in the seventh inning. Say Pujols hits a homer to lead off the ninth inning instead of singling. Adam Wainwright and Jon Garland then would each get a “No Decision” for the game. Yet, Wainwright’s performance did not suddenly become any better than it was in the eighth inning, when he was the pitcher of record for a “loss” and Garland’s did not magically become worse than it was in the eighth, when he was the pitcher of record for a “win.”

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on May 26, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

I imagine

the biggest reason W/L stat won’t change is because it has been the main measuring stick of performance, particularly in HOF voting. To change to something dramatically different (albeit more accurate) for current pitchers, but not applied to old-timers because it was non-existent, would cause comparability issues, particularly in HOF voting.

Plus, “old dog/new tricks” issues.

"How long have you known me, Jack? And you still don't know how to spell my name."

- Yogi after receiving a check from Jack Buck made out to Bearer

by blueinmemphis on May 26, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is a bad excuse too.

500 homers was the standard for the HOF along with 3000 hits and 300 wins. I’m gonna guess that there are going to be a lot of 500 HR guys in the next 15 years that aren’t 1st ballot HOF players. So are we punishing them for playing in an era with better offense? They didn’t punish the guys that played in the late 1920’s and 1930’s for this.

Pedro Martinez is one of the top 5 best pitchers in the last 15 years. Most dominant pitcher in baseball at his peak. Best single season maybe ever. Isn’t going to sniff 300 wins. Neither is Schilling. Neither is Halladay most likely. Do we punish them for playing in an era where pitchers aren’t required to finish games, hence leading to fewer decisions?

How many saves are required for no doubt status? Because we’re selling a lot of relievers prior to 1970 short since they didn’t have the save statistic back then.

You already have a shitload of comparability problems. OPS+ and WAR have attempted to solve these issues by scaling things to league average for each year and using Retrosheet to compare career WAR for players. They do a hell of a lot better job of comparing players then stupid W-L records and ERA. But nobody will use them if we continue to use those stupid statistics to garner our HOF votes.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah But....

the voters for the HOF are from this era (with 1 or 2 exceptions), so they’ll get the context – we’ll see non-300 win pitchers in the HOF.

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

So then why can't we just dump the stupid stat?

If it’s not a “comparability problem” and we know it’s not an effective way to judge a starter’s production, why do we continue to use it like it’s a holy grail for awards and HOF voting?

This is the whole point. It’s a bad stat that could be replaced by a better stat that tells us more about the pitcher.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

It still means something...

…just not what it used to. But it is unfair to hold today’s pitchers to yesterdays standards, but we do that all the time. its always Babe Ruth this or Mickey Mantle that or he’s no Bo Hart…

;=8)

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

but doesn't the fact that greinke and lincecum won the Cy Young last year change things?

i understand why you guys are saying… i really do… but why does the stat have to be eliminated completely? as silly as it is it is part of baseball.. much like the manager being 60+ years old and still having to wear a uniform… its silly but its “part of the game”… as long as people are wising up and giving the pitchers the awards who deserve them then why eliminate it?

When a reporter asked Gaylord Perry's 5-year-old daughter if her father threw a spitball, she replied, "It's a hard slider."

by FredbirdisaDork on May 26, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

i was channeling you from earlier

hope you don’t mind :)

When a reporter asked Gaylord Perry's 5-year-old daughter if her father threw a spitball, she replied, "It's a hard slider."

by FredbirdisaDork on May 26, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

;=8)

Hope u did it in a cow suit…

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

nope...

i was wearing an oversized cowboy hat

When a reporter asked Gaylord Perry's 5-year-old daughter if her father threw a spitball, she replied, "It's a hard slider."

by FredbirdisaDork on May 26, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, the 300 win thing...

…is moore of a tradition, nor a rule. Traditions tend to lose credibility the farther away from the time they are implemented.

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

But that hasn't happened.

If Greinke goes 8-14 with a 2.60 FIP and leads the league in strikeouts, do you think he’s winning the Cy Young? I bet 100-1 that he wouldn’t if there’s someone out there that has a 20-2 record with a 3.60 FIP.

Sure, the Lincecum and Greinke awards show some deference to other methods of evaluation, but they still had winning records and won 15+ games.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think voters do understand context

to a certain extent. They know the “juiced ball” era and the “juiced hitter” produces lower average wins and higher ERAs. They know the lower mound era produced lower ERAs (pun not intended).

I think you see W/L having a less affect already, but you can’t expect it to change immediately. It’s an evolution, not a revolution. That’s part of what makes baseball great (or hard to tolerate). Patience, grasshopper!

"How long have you known me, Jack? And you still don't know how to spell my name."

- Yogi after receiving a check from Jack Buck made out to Bearer

by blueinmemphis on May 26, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Revolution?

Viva la Revolucion!!!!!

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on May 26, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dang

Darwin…

"How long have you known me, Jack? And you still don't know how to spell my name."

- Yogi after receiving a check from Jack Buck made out to Bearer

by blueinmemphis on May 26, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Didn't say that...

It will probably happen over time. And discussion is great. But you gotta see why we are here at this point, and work from there. Besides, does it really affect the game we love if W/L are attributed to pitchers, and how? Doesn’t for me.

"How long have you known me, Jack? And you still don't know how to spell my name."

- Yogi after receiving a check from Jack Buck made out to Bearer

by blueinmemphis on May 26, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

The product on the field? Probably not

But it DOES affect arbitration, free agency, and Cy Young voting

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, but

if it affects player/team negotiations, those 2 parties can consider it. And each will determine whether they will or won’t, based on whether it helps their case or not. Doesn’t matter the validity of the stat so much as whether it helps your case. There’s no law requiring negotiating parties to consider any stat…

I agree with the Cy Young and HOF voting aspect.

"How long have you known me, Jack? And you still don't know how to spell my name."

- Yogi after receiving a check from Jack Buck made out to Bearer

by blueinmemphis on May 26, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

are you saying this is a growing problem?

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on May 26, 2010 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

he should talk to his dr about avodart

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on May 26, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Are avo-runs right for you?

>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez

by TBender on May 26, 2010 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Any kind of runs are right for me.

I’m not that f’in picky.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on May 26, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hmm...

You can read it in any tone you like.

by spants on May 26, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Go ahead and say it,

I left that door wiiiiiiiide open.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on May 26, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Absolutely.

When we all thought it was a going problem.

by EddieHarsch on May 26, 2010 10:01 AM EDT reply actions  

via fanshot

Chris Carpenter is so badass, he signs with the non-pitching hand to protect fans.

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on May 26, 2010 10:06 AM EDT reply actions  

That article is odd.

“Carpenter sucked in Toronto, has been hurt a lot, and now is really really good. Oh, and he signs autographs with his left hand.”

>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez

by TBender on May 26, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

it is quite bizarre.

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on May 26, 2010 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Blogging!

>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez

by TBender on May 26, 2010 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

i'm honestly not sure what pisses me off more

A. the cardinals lost ANOTHER 1-0 or 2-1 game, their fourth of the year. OR

B. wainwright was said “loser” is said game with the line he had.

i’m leaning towards B.

by stlcardinalsfang on May 26, 2010 10:16 AM EDT reply actions  

A

$175M doesn’t buy much these days, does it?

"They're so stunned they didn't even boo!"
John Rooney 5/3/10 referring to Philly fans on Cards 5-run 7th inning

by gocards62 on May 26, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Timmy and Bus

There is a new psychedelic cartoon featuring Tim Lincecum. In it, he and Barry Zito are riding around in a creepy talking bus. There is much talk of unicorns and then a tragedy occurs, involving Powder the Unicorn.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on May 26, 2010 10:16 AM EDT reply actions  

Did Strauss try to interview Timmy or I'm with Barry?

The bible declares an eye for an eye, so, let us now take our vengeance on this murderous ocean. . . You won't be hurting anyone anymore

by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on May 26, 2010 1:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

so when you're done ballot-stuffing for the ASG

vote for Luddy in the web gems (sorry, Albert’s top story). enjoy.

Player Points
Dustin Pedroia, BOS 19
Brandon Phillips, CIN 17
Troy Tulowitzki, COL 16
Scott Rolen, CIN 13
Ryan Ludwick, STL 12

(ASG)

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on May 26, 2010 10:21 AM EDT reply actions  

done

love it how FESPN reports Albert and TLR not getting along as a given and by now the PD boarda and comments are probably full of that kind of speculation and even more fire TLR outcry.. quick, let’s panic everybody!

by d-dee on May 26, 2010 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Goold was on FESPN to debunk it, and they're still talking about it.

Goold continuing to clean up after, like a unicorn should.

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on May 26, 2010 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

it's especially stupid since they have an article saying
“It’s no big thing,” La Russa said Monday. “I’m upset it got reported, because those things happen in the dugout once or twice a week.”

now they’ll spin it and say it only happens between those two and no one else
i hate FESPN. they’ll keep bringing this up for another… oh, forever..

by d-dee on May 26, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I found myself "tuning in" yesterday

because they spent like the entire SportsCenter inferring that there was this huge feud or whatever, like there was some new info. It led, they used it to tease into commercial, etc., so I was sure they would provide SOMETHING new.

Well, after all of that hype, they spent literally less than 60 seconds on it. That included giving Goold time to debunk. Dumb.

Honestly, in the big picture, the STL Media has been pretty soft historically (this is why TLR is visibly irritated when someone questions one of his decisions). If you think about it, this sort of spotlight is somewhat “new territory” for these guys. I mean, I think it’s fair to say that they’re not really used to being featured EVERYWHERE, particularly for negative pub, right?

If you read into what is said at this link, I’d say Pujols is pretty sick of the attention. However, given Albert’s status in the game and as a pending FA, I’d expect the scrutiny to only magnify.

by goodymobb on May 26, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Heh....

Montana is firmly in the RFL!!!! camp, with one vote…lol

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on May 26, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

win!

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on May 26, 2010 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

interesting that Maine is a Verlander state and New Hampshire is for Luddy.

until you figure that’s 3 votes for Luddy and the Carpenter family is from New Hampshire.

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on May 26, 2010 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Dominate

Luddy continues his dominance in MT, 100% 3 votes I’m proud to say I’m another…who’s the third?

by bmoorelikealbert on May 26, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Where are you at?

I thought I was the only one on here.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on May 26, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Luddy Had a Nice Catch...

….glad I shelled out the moolah to see it, even though we LOST again. Ooops, sorry, didn’t play as well as we should have…
;=8)

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, we get it

you’re the most pedantic guy in the room. you win

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on May 26, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm #1!!!

:=8D

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

A few thoughts

1) MLB At Bat for the iPhone is awesome. I was watching the Cards game last night while at the Mariners game

2) SafeCo field is awesome. Not only were there $2 hot dogs, but there are also two “discount” vendors that have $5.50 domestic drafts. I didn’t buy beer at the stadium, though, because I just went to the Pyramid Alehouse before the game.

3) Retractable roofs (rooves would be cooler…) are amazing. I’m just remembering how I paid for tickets to last year’s prospect game during the ASG, sat around for 3 hours, and then just left because of prior obligations. No refund

3a) All the stereotypes about rainy Seattle? Absolutely true. It literally has rained every single day since I moved up here last Sunday

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 11:56 AM EDT reply actions  

you are so lucky

i would do anything to be in your position right now. you’re the second person i know (and second asian, coincidentally) to be out in seattle this summer with a cool job. very, very jealous.

by stlcardinalsfang on May 26, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

ichiro must be starting a cult

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on May 26, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's been raining a lot down here in SF too

Usually it pretty much never rains here after May 1 or so, so it’s odd.

by mojowo11 on May 26, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Grr small ball

Auburn, down 4-1 with one out in the 8th of their opening round SEC baseball tournament game, bunts a runner over from first to second. Also, we have the best offense in the SEC. What. The. Fuck.

by jd is legend on May 26, 2010 12:29 PM EDT reply actions  

yeah, that's dumb.

giving up an out for a base on a run that would make it 4-2 is a pretty silly managing decision, especially in the eighth inning.

by stlcardinalsfang on May 26, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

The inning before, we called for a hit-and-run with 1 out, down 3-1

Batter missed, runner was out. Next pitch, batter struck out. No wonder we haven’t played in the SEC tournament in 7 years.

by jd is legend on May 26, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also, the one run we did score

Leadoff double off the top of the wall in center, sacrifice bunt to 3rd, successful suicide squeeze. It’s like the 2010 Yankees being managed by Whitey Herzog!

by jd is legend on May 26, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't get that, either

Although, as you may have surmised, I was glad they were doing it as i was happy with the outcome of the game.

by RollBirdsRoll on May 26, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bernie byting

In chronicling the mercurial offensive production of Razza, Bernie writes this:

Last 19 games: .190 / .288 / .328 with 1 homer and 5 RBIs. Lots of strikeouts, but only 7 walks in 66 PA.

My quibble is with him using “only” to describe 7 walks in 66 plate appearances. That’s a walk rate of 10.60% over the last 19 games. Sure, it’s lower than the 17.89% walk rate Rasmus posted in the first 25 games, which Bernie cites in his post just before the above-quoted snippet, but a 10.6% walk rate is pretty high. If Colby Rasmus over the last 19 games was a team, he would tie the Yankees for third-highest walk rate in MLB, a full percentage point ahead of the Cardinals as a team, with a 9.6% walk rate. He would also rank third on the Cardinals with this walk rate (behind Pujols, himself, and Felipe Lopez—at 10.8%). A 10.6% walk rate would have ranked in the top 50 of baseball in 2009, as well.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on May 26, 2010 12:42 PM EDT reply actions  

given that he was tanning the shit out of the ball for about 6 weeks,

gamblers’ fallacy aside, we really should expect him to have some periods of less-good hitting throughout the year.

Chris Carpenter doesn't give a fuck about your fantasy team.

by Felonius_Monk on May 27, 2010 8:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Crawford's quote rocked.

Of course, he’’ll be fined for it, but it was quite good I thought.

>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez

by TBender on May 26, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

and the quote was?

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on May 26, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

"If anybody should be getting suspended it should be the umpire."

Story link

>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez

by TBender on May 26, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

These umps are getting out of hand.

Way to quick to involve themselves in the game, and it seems like they escalate everything.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on May 26, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have no idea if that pitch was a strike

Because of the camera angle. Argh, why do teams still use that assy camera angle. Makes it impossible to know where the strike zone is in lefty-lefty matchups.

by mojowo11 on May 26, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

There

>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez

by TBender on May 26, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

There's a chart in the gamethread from last night about it...

F’in SBN

>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez

by TBender on May 26, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not the game thread...the day thread

Link

>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez

by TBender on May 26, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Matt Harvey

I’m a big fan of his mechanics. Clean and easy.

I did a once-over of his mechanics 3 years ago and the verdict was very positive.

by thepainguy on May 26, 2010 1:52 PM EDT reply actions  

I would only worry that he ends up being David Kopp with slightly better stuff

Everyone loves his mechanics, only he can’t get anybody out.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

flim told me that you used to drive an rx8

When a reporter asked Gaylord Perry's 5-year-old daughter if her father threw a spitball, she replied, "It's a hard slider."

by FredbirdisaDork on May 26, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

actually i have one and haven't had any problems other than a bad catalytic converter

When a reporter asked Gaylord Perry's 5-year-old daughter if her father threw a spitball, she replied, "It's a hard slider."

by FredbirdisaDork on May 26, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

don't they consume the approximate output of a middle eastern kingdom in oil every week?

having to top up the oil so frequently would piss me off. I really like the RX8, though, otherwise…

Chris Carpenter doesn't give a fuck about your fantasy team.

by Felonius_Monk on May 27, 2010 8:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

I did

Sold it about a year ago. Did you have a question about it or something?

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

no question

I just like finding things in common with other members of the forum… thats all

When a reporter asked Gaylord Perry's 5-year-old daughter if her father threw a spitball, she replied, "It's a hard slider."

by FredbirdisaDork on May 26, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I liked the car, it just became impractical with a family

The trunk was too small to get a stroller or pack ‘n play in, and you can’t really sit more than 3 in it.

So I sold it for a profit and bought an old Civic with the proceeds that I can work on myself.

I didn’t have any problems with mine until the wife decided to back it out of the garage and immediately shut it off. Thank goodness for my insurance covering the tow and the “flooding” repair.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

haha

yes one of the quirks of the rotary. I have only flooded my old rx7 once and i learned my lesson. if you dont mind me asking… what year/color/MT or AT?

When a reporter asked Gaylord Perry's 5-year-old daughter if her father threw a spitball, she replied, "It's a hard slider."

by FredbirdisaDork on May 26, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

2004, Black Grand Touring, paddle shifted AT

I couldn’t find one with the six speed gearbox for the price I wanted. I really didn’t like the paddle shifted AT although it was better than the regular old 4 speed AT that was in the RX-7’s.

Now, if they put the MazdaSpeed Sportronic 6 speed paddles in it I think it would improve things a lot. I just didn’t have $4,000 sitting around.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

ive never had an AT rx7/8

i know that the 4-port AT models early on had the significant issues that plauged the reliability of the rx8s in general. i think that now they are selling both the AT and the MT with the same engine

When a reporter asked Gaylord Perry's 5-year-old daughter if her father threw a spitball, she replied, "It's a hard slider."

by FredbirdisaDork on May 26, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

mine was a 1.9L and the ’04 6 speeds were a 2.2 and had a much better gear ratio and top end speed.

But I didn’t care much about that considering the 6 speeds would have cost me another $3000 I switched the chip out, which gave me higher gear ratios and left 4th gear for cruising. That cost $150, and it was geared better through 2 gears than most of the 6 speeds I drove.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

FWIW

I’m considering buying a Lotus Elise at some point in the future, just so I can have a car to play around with in the summer time.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lotus?

Is it Stygian? They’re the best!

;=8)

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tie him to the Tree of Woe!

Someday I really should read some Conan books. I have loved the movies since I was a kid. Not sure if I am excited about the new one in the works yet.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on May 26, 2010 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Isn't that the car that Tesla puts electric motors in?

I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons

by hazel on May 26, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not the Elise chassis, but

Lotus designed the chassis for the Tesla Roadster, yes.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 27, 2010 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Rick Horton, Ozzie Smith, and John Mabry

coming up for an hour on bernies show if anybody is interested…

When a reporter asked Gaylord Perry's 5-year-old daughter if her father threw a spitball, she replied, "It's a hard slider."

by FredbirdisaDork on May 26, 2010 2:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Is there really a 300 comment aboot the merits

of win loss going on, or am I in some sort of alternate universe?

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on May 26, 2010 2:35 PM EDT reply actions  

VEB: Yeah, you read that correctly

>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez

by TBender on May 26, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

yep

and there’s a “back in my day baseball didn’t suck” fanpost and another subthread bashing analysis in the gaudin thread

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on May 26, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

This team needs to start winning.

We’re losing our sanity.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on May 26, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

and to think

the cards just had a 5-2 homestand

amazing what a day off followed by a 1-0 loss will do

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on May 26, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

This happens every season.

You can read it in any tone you like.

by spants on May 26, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

No wins, they're arbitraty....

…they just need to play better

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

give it a rest

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on May 26, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

sorry...

:=8/

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's obnoxious and cowpletely misrepresentative of the point.

Don’t make me cowm over there and put you out to pasture.

You can read it in any tone you like.

by spants on May 26, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

see what you did?

you gave spants mad cow..

by d-dee on May 26, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Mad Cow is a prion disorder,

duh!

I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons

by hazel on May 26, 2010 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I love it

gotta have a sense of humor or you’ll get cow-tow’d to!

"How long have you known me, Jack? And you still don't know how to spell my name."

- Yogi after receiving a check from Jack Buck made out to Bearer

by blueinmemphis on May 26, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

;=8)

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously

I thought we hashed this out on VEB years ago.

bgh is trying to be nice and teach old dogs some new tricks. Good luck, my friend.

Jobu needs a refill

by lightbulb on May 26, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

...

>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez

by TBender on May 26, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions   5 recs

You realize this blog wouldn't exist without debate and discussion right?

That makes your cartoon a bit facetious.

You don’t think that I’d debate this with you in a bar over a pitcher of beer? You’d be wrong.

It only makes it worse when someone is playing Devil’s Advocate and making salacious comments that they don’t stand behind.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 26, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Only We Cud...

…share all this over a huge pitcher of beer, if only we cud.

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was thinking the same thing.

I left and came back expecting something like Lineups, call ups, but no…

Win Loses.

by Evilfrog on May 26, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

seriously

win loss stat makes rbis look like pure genius

I'll leave this to Lao Tzu

by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 26, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rays' Rodriguez stung by an actual ray

Awesome

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 2:52 PM EDT reply actions  

I Wonder...

…if we’ve ever had a player actually pecked by a cardinal?

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on May 26, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

does stabbed by a hawk count?

the author decided to be clever in the last paragraph.

Rodriguez is also lucky that he plays for Tampa. If he were a member of the Tigers or Giants, he certainly wouldn’t have survived an attack from the team’s mascot, and we’d be waiting for ransom demands if he called Pittsburgh home. Obviously, it’s a bit more dangerous than playing for one of the hosiery-inspired clubs but there are certainly worse scenarios out there for big-leaguers.

he should have just yelled “i’m one of you” maybe the ray would have left him alone

by d-dee on May 26, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

ok guys

i have some work to do… later everybody

When a reporter asked Gaylord Perry's 5-year-old daughter if her father threw a spitball, she replied, "It's a hard slider."

by FredbirdisaDork on May 26, 2010 3:00 PM EDT reply actions  

I like y'all and everything

But the Mariners have a day game today, so it’s time to skip some work and watch the game

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 3:37 PM EDT reply actions  

Great, man, thanks for asking

The roomies are cool, and I’m loving the city (minus the rain), and this job has the best perks a baseball fan can ask for

I just popped back in the office because I was feeling guilty about shirking my duties, but as I walked in, my boss stops me and says “Oh, there’s a game going on right now if you want to go watch it for awhile. Everybody else is.” So I’m probably gonna go back out there pretty soon

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice.

>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez

by TBender on May 26, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

You gotta love that.

Every year I get to hang out at the Champions Tour tournament here in Des Moines for 3-4 days while setting up all the closed circuit TV out there. Easier work was never created — and I get to watch the practice rounds and the pro-am too.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on May 27, 2010 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

mojowo11 presents: A Thing That Will Cheer You Up

Major League Anti-Leaders in WAR:

Carlos Lee: -1.4
Akinori Iwamura: -1.3
Aramis Ramirez: -1.2
Pedro Feliz: -1.0

So cheer up! We could be…pretty much any other team in the NL Central.

by mojowo11 on May 26, 2010 4:03 PM EDT reply actions  

Oh, also

Major League Anti-WAR Leader (Pitchers Only Division):

Todd Wellemeyer: -0.4

by mojowo11 on May 26, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

from FSNMW
News from San Diego today… Dr. Thunder (aka Nick Stavinhoa) broke an F18 flight simulator today during a feature being shot for FSM. Evidently his strength was too much when pulled up on a lever. The man is stronger than an F-18! See that video tomorrow night on the pregame! Tonight, we mic up Blake Hawksworth in the pen to hear what is said during the game while waiting for the call!!! 830pm tonight.

aaaahahahaaaa

by d-dee on May 26, 2010 4:06 PM EDT reply actions  

oh hhhh yes.

I am so so so looking forward to the bullpen miked up.

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on May 26, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

think of it as a Discovery Channel special

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on May 26, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

someone best be recording that shit

and thanks to you, i spent the entire morning looking for that cap of freese with the batman mask

i raked through ksdk’s videos, here, fsn.. nothing. i am feeling empty, scared and alone.twas all your fault

by d-dee on May 26, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Where were you earlier?

Seriously, nice post.

>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez

by TBender on May 26, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

so when do we start debating about how many of those tough losses were Tony's fault?

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on May 26, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let's start now! I'll argue against.

Zero! They were all because of our distressingly anemic offense.

by chalk on May 26, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll just say relievers + BP and let y'all pick it up.

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on May 26, 2010 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, fuck BP

Cardinals before Oil Spill: 9-4, .692
Cardinals since Oil Spill: 17-16, .515

The oil spill is very obviously responsible for a drop of .177 in our winning percentage.

by jd is legend on May 26, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

You're being unamerican right now

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

BP is British!

You can read it in any tone you like.

by spants on May 26, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

...

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on May 26, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Oh I see.

Nope. Not funny.

You can read it in any tone you like.

by spants on May 26, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I believe it was a rand paul reference

but I’ll leave it at that and continue on my merry way
(cause it’s almost 5:00!!)

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on May 26, 2010 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

OHHHH

Yeah, that’s funny. :)

You can read it in any tone you like.

by spants on May 26, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

i just wish they'd stop calling him a loser

instead, say he took the loss
i get it – media needs drama, but shit, it’s enough already

by d-dee on May 26, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just wish the team had scored a couple of runs.

>Pitcher Change: Felipe Lopez replaces Ryan Franklin, batting 7th, replacing third baseman Felipe Lopez

by TBender on May 26, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

this

That would’ve saved us the agony of 393 comments on W/L being worthless instead of RB’s excellent draft work.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on May 26, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Feel free to discuss the draft.

In fact, please do. I don’t know enough about these players.

You can read it in any tone you like.

by spants on May 26, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wish I could but I don't know enough about them to discuss at length.

That’s why I read these.lol I wish I had the time to check them all out like RB does. But I have to rely on these reports and what other people see.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on May 26, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Same here. I really do love the Draft Previews.

Wish I had more to offer, but I just don’t have enough time to delve even further into baseball.

You can read it in any tone you like.

by spants on May 26, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have a soft spot for LH hitting Catchers.

As I was one. I also tend to favor HS players. they seem to be more raw but with more upside. If you get the right package with the right coach, you might come closer to having a good player come out of it. As long as they don’t throw a ton of money at the kid. But anymore, it seems like they all get a pretty hefty amount just to sign on. That’s another issue.

 I like the idea of Vitek being a versatile 2b/3b infielder though.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on May 26, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow, this whole thread has been about pitching W/L...

is it really that difficult a subject? Its a terrible stat, probably the worst in baseball. I was sort of hoping to read about people’s opinions on the draft…

babip giveth... and babip taketh away

by purple_haze on May 26, 2010 7:10 PM EDT reply actions  

I, for one, am a little iffy on taking Harvey

because I keep hearing his name in close proximity to the word “closer”.

babip giveth... and babip taketh away

by purple_haze on May 26, 2010 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Guess who they also said that about?
His delivery, resilient arm, size and stuff remind many scouts of Angels set-up man Scot Shields, and most scouts think he will thrive in a relief role.

Hint: he has two Cy Youngs on his resume in the past two years. Scouts overvalue relief pitchers and seem eager to pigeonhole pitchers into what they can/can’t do at the college level, not having a clue what they’ll figure out in the 2ish years they have in the minors. I don’t know much about Harvey, but I don’t trust any of that.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on May 26, 2010 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd say the majority of pitchers projected by scouts to be relievers,

did not turn into starters who won multiple Cy Youngs.

I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons

by hazel on May 26, 2010 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Obviously not

But it seems to happen quite a bit that they end up being just fine starting.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on May 26, 2010 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

i think smaller-framed righties most often get the label

any idea of how oswalt was perceived, projected, whatever? did the reds think of leake as a definite starter, or someone who might end up in the pen?

i don’t know if jess todd fits in here somewhere.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on May 26, 2010 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

todd was moved for no real reason that i could see

I was dead against it at the time. He hadn’t struggled at any level, he was healthy, and his stuff, it seemed to me at least, played better in a starting role. That he absolutely kicked ass in relief in Memphis has probably stuck him there permanently, but i thought the Injuns might try to convert him back to a SP.

Chris Carpenter doesn't give a fuck about your fantasy team.

by Felonius_Monk on May 27, 2010 8:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yet the argument that "scouts were wrong, therefore scouts are wrong"

is a fallacious one. I still think it’s probably better to play the odds and weight the judgment of people like that at least a bit more than you are doing.

I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons

by hazel on May 26, 2010 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

It happens soooooo often

Off the top of my head Jimenez, Lincecum, Garza, Volquez, Scherzer, Morrow all got the “possibly needs to move to the bullpen” tag. Neftali Feliz is in the bullpen despite owning 3 plus pitches and ability to throw harder deep into games. Such a huge grain of salt needs to be taken when you have a guy dominating as a starter and they are nitpicking whether it can continue. Two pitches in college is enough to get it done, so many are good enough to the point where they don’t need a 3rd pitch and scouts look at that as though they can’t ever get one. I don’t even know how good Harvey really is, I just like to think that if a guy is doing well as a starter he’ll continue to do well as a starter.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on May 27, 2010 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Checking a little further...

Looking at the starters’ no-decisions, we find:

Wainwright had one ND with a GS of 74. Cards lost 2-1 in 10.

Carpenter has four ND’s with GS of 31 (the Milwaukee game), 61, 61, and 40 (the Angel game). Cards 3-1 in those four ND’s.

Garcia has 2 ND’s with GS of 78 and 59. Cards lost both games, 2-1 in 20 innings and 5-1 (bullpen gave up all 5 runs in that one).

Penny has 2 ND’s with GS of 63 and 34 (the latter was the Angels game in which he left after 3 IP). Cards 1-1 in those games.

And Lohse has 4 ND’s with GS of 44, 12, 46 and 71. Cards won 3 of those 4 games, the loss was the 12-point start against the D’backs where the Cards scored enough to get him off the hook but lost anyway.

So in 13 no-decisions, the starters have pitched well enough to win 7 of them; the Cards have actually won seven but not the seven they “should” have won.

Wainwright has one “Tough No Decision” to go with his two “Tough Losses” and Garcia has two “Tough No Decisions” to go with his one “Tough Loss”. Carpenter has two “Tough No Decisions” and two “Cheap No Decisions”. Penny has one TND and one CND; Lohse has 1 TND and 3 CND.

What can we learn from all this, besides the inconsistency of the offense? Well, it shows us that Garcia (and to a lesser extent, Wainwright) have been unlucky and Lohse has been simultaneously lucky and sucky as he’s pitched poorly enough to take the loss in four games where he either got a win or at least escaped with a no-decision.

And that’s baseball. You never know.

by Jmodene on May 26, 2010 7:58 PM EDT reply actions  

That was random.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on May 26, 2010 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stop pretending to be a cow!

You can read it in any tone you like.

by spants on May 26, 2010 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dicowdomy?

I'm one of those "I don't care how you killed the cow; just serve me a great steak" guys. If the results are logical and easy to understand, I'm pouring some A1 sauce on that formula and eating it. UZR qualifies. -Bill Simmons

by hazel on May 26, 2010 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

line ups per Straussie

CARDINALS

SS Felipe Lopez
RF Jon Jay
1B Albert Pujols
LF Matt Holliday
3B David Freese
CF Colby Rasmus
C Yadier Molina
2B Skip Schumaker
P Jaime Garcia

PADRES

CF Luis Durango
2B David Eckstein
1B Adrian Gonzalez
3B Chase Headley
C Yorvit Torrealba
LF Oscar Salazar
SS Jerry Hairston, Jr.
RF Chris Denorfia
P Kevin Correia

http://interact.stltoday.com/blogzone/commishs-hot-stove/commishs-hot-stove/cardinal-beat-updates/2010/05/ludwick-sits-against-padres-correia/

He applies Ludwick might be setting from side effects of running into the board.

by Evilfrog on May 26, 2010 8:48 PM EDT reply actions  

LUIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISSS!!!

Pumped.

(Go Cards)

Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.

BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS

Hey Houston,
Suck it; you suck

by vexedtechie on May 26, 2010 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dunno if you guys have picked up....

…but I got a WEE BIT of a soft spot for players I got to watch in Fort Wayne. heh heh

Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.

BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS

Hey Houston,
Suck it; you suck

by vexedtechie on May 26, 2010 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Durango and Eckstein...

at the top. Denorfia, Hairston, Salazar, Yorvit at the bottom… How can we compete against this juggernaut?

Tis better to lose bunting than win with dingers alone...

by guayzimi on May 26, 2010 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

isn't it clear after last night?

we can’t

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on May 26, 2010 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

sitting Boog this many days is going to result in him coming back cold.

not that it’s distinguishable from his usual this season, but I’m calling this one. (not to mention he’d better get a start in what for him is a home ballpark… that’s immaterial to his performance.)

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on May 26, 2010 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

yikes!

A warm Boog goes 1-22. What does a cold Boog do?

by Evilfrog on May 26, 2010 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

strike out twice on one pitch?

looney tunes style?

babip giveth... and babip taketh away

by purple_haze on May 26, 2010 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

That was 3 in 1!

Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.

BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS

Hey Houston,
Suck it; you suck

by vexedtechie on May 26, 2010 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

well, Schu isn't really doing anything to merit staying in the lineup right now

for that matter, neither is anyone else.

babip giveth... and babip taketh away

by purple_haze on May 26, 2010 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

too bad

we can’t bring Memphis up for a few games. watching their replaces play would light a fire.

by Evilfrog on May 26, 2010 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think La Russa is playing it right...

Boog has started against the last two lefties we’ve faced (Kazmir and Robertson). With this offense, Lopez has to be in there every night.

Tis better to lose bunting than win with dingers alone...

by guayzimi on May 26, 2010 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

lopez always

but i hope boog and schu rotate a little more evenly as we go along

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on May 26, 2010 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

RFL

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on May 26, 2010 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

who's watching this in hd because

i hope that’s dirt on his hat

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on May 26, 2010 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

accuracy is important

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on May 26, 2010 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

RFL says the Petco dugout is the worst in the league.

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on May 26, 2010 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

he says they're crammed in like sardines.

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on May 26, 2010 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

he speaks more clearly now than around 2006

he had the best post-WS interview, but it’s never shown ever, because he’s unintelligible. we got what he was sayin’, though.

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on May 26, 2010 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

it was painful

maybe for the Friday night slot.

Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on May 26, 2010 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

i didn't see anyone else comment on this

but at a point i got sbn’d and all the highlighted comments disappeared, so just saying great photo, even greater caption.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on May 26, 2010 10:47 PM EDT reply actions  

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