Protecting Pujols
I posted this HERE initially but wanted to reproduce it on VEB. Afterall, much of my reason for writing is to get feedback on analysis and how it could improve.
It's a tired theme from the last several years that's likely to continue. The Cardinals obviously provided one answer by signing Matt Holliday to a franchise record contract. If Pujols and his career 173 wRC+ is given a free pass, the next hitter will still be difficult in Holliday (career 139 wRC+). For perspective on how much better this makes the Cards lineup, last year they had Ankiel (career 100 wRC+) and Ludwick (career 121 wRC+) batting cleanup for much of the season. With Holliday pushing Ludwick further down in the order, the Cardinals' offensive potential is much more formidable. That goes without factoring in the added production from third base. David Freese's widely projected average major leaguer status (VEB article) will be welcomed after 2009 when Cards' 3B hit a combined .229/.292/.369. This is clearly a more potent offense... but it all comes back to Albert.
The best way to force opposing teams to pitch to Pujols is for the guy hitting first or second to get on base AHEAD of him. Skip as lead-off hitter is a foregone conclusion but who is the best candidate for hitting second? If spring training trends are any indication, LaRussa believes it's Brendan Ryan who has taken a grand total of zero walks in 39 ABs; good for a line of .231/.225/.436. Meanwhile, Colby Rasmus had 16 BBs in 58 ABs and produced a sizzling .362/.500/.707 line.
Of course, Rasmus will not sustain such other-worldly numbers and there are concerns given his bizarre, "I'm not up there to take walks," (paraphrased from memory) statement and 6.9% BB from 2009. But Colby seems to be changing his approach at the plate as evidenced by quotes featured in BJ Rains' article in the Globe Democrat: "My focus has been on just taking a good approach up there and not swinging at anything that I don’t want to swing at, whether they call it or not." He also emphasizes the need to, "stay in your own strike zone," while LaRussa welcomes the young center fielder's changed hitting philosophy: "If he walks, those are runs." And there's a track record; Rasmus cultivated a career minor league walk rate that's right around 12%.
I'll admit that I was initially in favor of batting Rasmus lower in the order as it allows him to steal bases without the risk of taking the bat out of Pujols' hands if he were to get caught or create an open base at first by a successful steal attempt. In fact, I was arguing with one of my roommates about this just the other day. According to Derrick Goold's recent P-D article, LaRussa is considering a changed approach of his own by allowing the number two hitter to run more often, even if it comes at the expense of Pujols being intentionally walked.
According to The Book written by Tango, Lichtman, and Dolphin (2007), where the scoring distribution for base/out states are provided, walking Pujols would always lead to a greater chance of scoring a run.
| 1B | 2B | 3B | Outs | Run Expectancy |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| -- | -- | -- | 0 | .555 |
| Rasmus | -- | -- | 0 | .953 |
| -- | Rasmus | -- | 0 | 1.189 |
| Pujols | Rasmus | -- | 0 | 1.573 |
| -- | -- | -- | 1 | .297 |
| Pujols | -- | -- | 1 | .573 |
| Pujols | Rasmus | -- | 1 | .971 |
| Pujols | Rasmus | -- | 2 | .466 |
This table clearly illustrates that the Cardinals benefit when Pujols is given a free pass... and taking the bat out of his hands isn't necessarily a bad development. Even in the worst case scenario where the opposing pitcher manages to retire the next two hitters (likely Holliday and Ludwick) without allowing the runners to advance, the Cardinals would still have a run expectancy of .466 (only .089 difference from when the inning started). With that said, there is considerable risk in allowing Colby (or anyone) to run in front of Pujols; an unsuccessful attempt drastically reduces the Cardinals' run expectancy. Even in that case, an intentional walk to Pujols elevates their run expectancy above .555 (where every inning begins).
Of course, these numbers don't account for the quality of pitcher on the mound and quality of hitter at the plate... so they aren't entirely accurate. Anyone know where to find that kind of information?
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I wish they would just bat Holliday second and Pujols cleanup
Allen Craig > Nick Stavinoha
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Apr 5, 2010 11:30 PM EDT reply actions
APu would have like 160 rbis or more
Allen Craig > Nick Stavinoha
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Apr 5, 2010 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Rasmus/H/Luddy/Apu would be an incredible lineup
esp with skip/Br batting 9th.
I’d rather see Pujols beat Wilson’s record than bat .400 or hit 74 HR. Sadly, he’ll never do it batting 3rd.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
agrees
Allen Craig > Nick Stavinoha
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Apr 6, 2010 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I know that would be closer to the optimal lineup...
…but it ain’t gonna happen.
Plus, as you heard Al point out yesterday, Pujols is obsessed with scoring runs. How would the Cardinals take advantage of Pujols’ uncanny ability to score runs with those guys batting in front of him? : I
You could bat Albert second
and Holliday fourth
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
that sounds like the best option
"they make an adjustment or look into it, ultimately, somebody's going to get hurt" Carp was seen yelling at the home plate umpire
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Apr 8, 2010 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Albert needs a true lead off man
He has to bat third – if the Cards go down 1-2-3 in the first inning he doesn’t bat that inning. We need him at bat as many times as possible , preferably with runners on. Get him a real catalyst at the top of the order and his numbers will be even more ridiculous.
by D4 on Apr 6, 2010 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Skip is about as close a thing
to a “true leadoff man” as we’ve seen in a Cardinal uniform in quite a long time. Hits around .300, get’s on base at a .350-.360 clip, doesn’t hit a lot of homers. The only Cardinal leadoff hitter in the last 30 years with a higher OBP than Skip’s last year was Fernando Vina in 2000 when he posted a .380.
Sure, Skip doesn’t have the speed of your “typical” leadoff guy, but we’re not going to run much anyway with Pujols and Holliday batting in the middle of the order. Getting on base at a .360 clip is what is needed out of that spot and Skip has been right around there both of the last two seasons. I’m going to go out on limb here and say that would put him in the top 6 or 7 leadoff guys in the majors in terms of getting on base.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Skip is not a great leadoff man
He doesn’t have any power or speed. He just sits on first base, and not even a double can get him in half the time. He’s probably the worst leadoff man in the league at getting past first base on his own.
The leadoff man just needs to be a good hitter. Of course, with our current team, Skip is probably the best bet there, against right handed pitchers.
I think he's pretty average
not a great leadoff man by any means though
"they make an adjustment or look into it, ultimately, somebody's going to get hurt" Carp was seen yelling at the home plate umpire
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Apr 6, 2010 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions
according to billjamesonline.com
he was 7 runs above average on the bases last year (+5 in 2008). A large part of that is not making extra outs- he was only thrown out one time trying to advance in 2008 and one time in 2009, and he hit into surprisingly few GIDPs (4 in 66 opportunities in ’09).
FWIW, as there’s not a lot of info available on what that stat measures, so it’s probably a junk stat. But it’s interesting.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
I didn't say "great"
I said “true” — there’s a difference. A great leadoff man would be Rickey Henderson or Kenny Lofton in his prime. A true leadoff man is one who gets on base at an above average rate. Among leadoff hitters last year, the Cardinals had the 8th best OBP in all of baseball. That’s pretty damn good.
Speed is completely overrated when evaluating a leadoff man — Wade Boggs was a great leadoff guy and he didn’t steal a lot of bases, he just got on base at a .420 rate. I don’t even understand why power is a factor — only one great leadoff guy had above average power numbers, and Rickey is one of the top 10 players all time, and the best leadoff man there ever was. If you’re going to complain about not having Rickey Henderson as your leadoff man, prepare to be complaining for the next 100 years.
The worst in the league at getting past 1st base? Slow down with hyperbole there, that’s not even close to true. I would venture to say that Ryan Theriot struggles more with that than Skip does, as did every leadoff guy for the Mets last year when Reyes was hurt, most of the leadoff guys for the Marlins, and every leadoff hitter the last 4 years for the Giants. Skip had 32 doubles last year, so he does have some gap power. Sure, he’s not a basestealer, but Willy Taveras is a basestealer and also never gets on base. I’d rather have a guy that gets to first base 36% of the time and doesn’t steal bases than a guy who gets to first base 28% of the time but can steal second base.
He’s hit .300 the last two years, but that’s not a “good hitter”? You realize that only like 30 guys in all of baseball hit .300 last year right? By wOBA and OPS+ Skip’s been a slightly above average hitter the past two years.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Also
if we completely (and I mean completely) restrict Schu’s starts vs LHP this year, he’s probably even better than that. Without checking, I think his career OBP vs RHP is in the .380/.390 range, and they’re the only pitchers he ever leads off against (most of his ABs vs LHP come lower in the order), and that sample size is now getting up to being pretty solid.
I guess you could say he’s probably well above-average as a leadoff man vs RHP, but our leadoff spot IN GENERAL is fairly weak because we’ll (presumably) have Boog and his unlikely-to-get-on-base-at-more-than-an-average-clip-even-against-LHP skills leading off when we face a southpaw.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Apr 7, 2010 6:40 AM EDT up reply actions
why would we want albert to bat
with 2 outs and no one on in the first? His .450+ OBP is much more valuable leading off an inning. A leadoff walk is half as good as a solo home run.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
I'm pretty sure that's not true (A leadoff walk to Albert being half as good as a solo shot).
I think you’re slightly misinterpreting the stats. Also, a lead-off walk to Pujols is less valuable than a lead-off walk to any other hitter in baseball, because Pujols is more likely than any other hitter in baseball to get on base and/or hit for extra bases in any case.
A leadoff walk in the table above is worth ~.4 of a run, but that’s context neutral. A leadoff walk in an inning that Pujols is leading off is worth less, because he’s more likely than the average hitter to do something better than walk.
But yeah, I’m probably just being nit-picky. I agree that I’d rather have Albert leading off than hitting with 2 outs and nobody on.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Apr 7, 2010 6:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Is there a place to find that kind of information?
…run expectancy base/out states for specific batters/pitchers?
not that I know of
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Apr 7, 2010 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
also
I think it would be very difficult to determine.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Apr 7, 2010 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
you're arguing something different than I am
If we’re specifically looking at the value of walking pujols with the bases empty and no outs rather than letting him hit, it’s a different calculation.
With no one on base, and no outs, the average run value of a 2009 pujols PA was about .232 runs/PA. Walking him in that situation has an average value of .398 runs. IE, walking him is a net positive for the team- he’s more productive when walked than when allowed to hit.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
Oh definitely
I was just saying that a solo shot is better than twice as good as a Pujols leadoff walk.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Apr 8, 2010 6:52 AM EDT up reply actions
I was totally thrown by the choice of picture.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
bromance
Allen Craig > Nick Stavinoha
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Apr 5, 2010 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
dingdangolewhycantiquityoubrendan?
"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."
by tom s. on Apr 6, 2010 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
he's promised his ring pops to someone else
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
ya, instantly made me feel uneasy.
lol “hazing”
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
you guys know they do this after all of Colby's home runs, right?
no kiddin’.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
The 2 Hole Conundrum
I really don’t like Rasmus in that spot actually. I like him in the 5 hole where he was batting yesterday.
To me, our best lineups are these:
Vs. RHP:
Skip
Ludwick
Pujols
Holliday
Rasmus
Molina
Freese
Pitcher
Ryan
Vs. LHP:
Floppy
Ludwick
Pujols
Holliday
Rasmus
Molina
Freese
Pitcher
Ryan
Ludwick’s career line in the 2 hole: .318/.392/.609/1.001 in 205 PA’s (SSS alert!) and most of those are with the Cardinals.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I agree
Ludwick should be in the 2 hole. Don’t really like Ryan there.
....my quick smells like french toast...
Twitter: @mstreeter06
yep
"they make an adjustment or look into it, ultimately, somebody's going to get hurt" Carp was seen yelling at the home plate umpire
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Apr 6, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I just think that puts a lot of pressure on him to perform
and he’s got enough of that as a rookie starting 3B for his hometown team.
I’d rather he got his sea legs first.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I like Freese/Molina there long-term against left-handed pitching
I think Colby would be fine against righties.
Brendan Ryan, on the other hand, has no business hitting anywhere near the top of the order, ever, for this Cardinals team. I really hope that opening day and ST aren’t portentous of a stubborn TLR putting Boog in the 2-hole all year, regardless of other factors.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Apr 7, 2010 6:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Tis true....
off to search the pd for the quote.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I'm inclined to agree with you...
…given that Ludwick returns to 2008 BB rate of 10% But most projection systems peg him for .340-ish which isn’t good enough.
It’s true that Colby’s projections call for an OBP even lower… but I like his chances of beating them given track record, recent performance, and quotes about changed approach from 2009.
by AndyB83 on Apr 6, 2010 2:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't like starting off with two left-handed hitters
for one thing, and I think Ludwick has shown that he’s a very good hitter in 2nd spot in the lineup. He’s also the 5th hardest person in all of MLB to double up.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
probably at least somewhat (as a secondary skill)
luddy k’s a lot and hits a lot of fly balls (9th in MLB in FB% in 2009), line drives and home runs. He was 9th in MLB in GB/FB rate in 2009, and #1 in MLB in 2008. And he runs pretty well for a big guy.
All of those factors are skills, and should reduce his GIDP rate.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
He's been in the top 5 in that category for 2 years running
and was in the top 10 in 2007, so it has to be somewhat repeatable. I wouldn’t call it a skill necessarily, just a combination of attributes like you list here.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Good post btw
rec’d. In a sea of new, kinda crappy fanposts, this is a little light in the darkness.
Mmmmm. That’s some good metaphor mixing, right there…
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
4-1 after 5 games
Its good to win the first two series of the year on the road; especially with 1+2 hitting .143 and only one hit from the 2 hole. Albert’s protection so far has been excellent; now if they can put more runners on for him the Cardinals will really be flying around the bases.
Ugly #2 Spot
Good post. Schumaker, Pujols, and Holliday are givens at leadoff, #3, and #4. That is the good news – the bad news is that whoever bats second seems to be doomed. There has been much debate about providing protection behind Albert is more important than providing protection in front of Albert. One might say that with the signing of Holliday that the protection behind Albert advocates won the argument. The new debate seems to be is hitting two spots behind Albert in the five spot more important than hitting in the #2 spot directly in front of Albert.
This debate seems to take on a new dimension since Holliday is batting fourth and deserving of his own protection. It seems to me that the question is where is Colby most valuable because there seems to be little doubt that he is the best option in the #2 spot and the #5 spot. You also have the issue of breaking up your left and right handed hitters.
I think the ideal line-up has Lopez hitting second and Rasmus hitting fifth, but Lopez would have to displace Ryan or Freese for that to happen. My vote, as if it is worth anything, is for Rasmus to hit there. I don’t like having the two lefties hitting back to back, but I don’t think that it is as much of an issue with this years line-up being more stable and set .
you can fit Lopez into the current team without displacing Ryan
he takes all the starts at 2B against left-handed pitching, and takes (say) 50% of the starts at 3B against right-handed pitching. End result, Lopez, Freese and Schumaker all take 450-odd PAs this year. I actually think that’s a pretty good way to share things around. When Lopez doesn’t play I’d probably give Freese a shot at hitting second. He’s a much better hitter than Ryan and I think he’ll put up a solid, though probably not spectacular, OBP.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Apr 12, 2010 6:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually
I think this is how it’s going to play out for the most part, although we seem to be doomed into seeing Lopez at SS every once in a while against right handed pitching.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I can probably stomach Lopez once a week at SS, providing it's against righties
I still have very little confidence in Boog’s bat, and Lopez is the logical replacement whilst Greene’s still in Memphis.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Apr 12, 2010 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
I'll stomach it
but I’m certainly not going to like it. I don’t think the difference in bats is near enough to make up for the difference in gloves. Boog should play every day at SS unless he’s hurt and unable to go.
He also had two very good AB’s last night. Seems Mac is getting through to him about patience, especially in situations with runners on base.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
What about Lopez leading off at 3B and Skip at no.2
I am a fan of the leftie hitting second, pulling the ball to right moving the runner from 1st to third. It also keeps the top 3 at R-L—R.
Skip hits into quite a lot of DPs, I dunno if that would influence it
but I guess either way would be fine by me. If Skip continues to get on base at a .380 clip against RHP, I’d rather he was batting directly in front of Pujols. The best OBP in the team should be in front of Albert.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Apr 12, 2010 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions























