Rich Hill still has two arms for some reason.
This is all Matt Clement's fault.
With the signing of Rich Hill, some of us declared that he would be a possible midseason candidate for the fifth spot of the Memphis rotation. He'd been signed for nothing, and that was fine, but there just wasn't any way he was going to become an impact player in anything but the long and optimistic term. He was fusion energy. He was a lottery ticket. A good sign that Mo was still rooting through the bottom of the TJ Maxx bin with all of the designer items, and a small thing that we could needle our Cubs friends about, but nothing more.
Small sample size warning, but Rich Hill just made himself a candidate for the 25 man roster.
So how in the bloody hell did that happen? Rich Hill had torn his labrum, and I'm pretty sure Will Carroll said pitchers with labrum tears should go die in a fire along with Justin Bieber and the cast of Jersey Shore.
The simple fact that Hill can throw a baseball today rather than six to nine months from today means his labrum tear probably couldn't have been higher than grade II. Labrum tears are graded, by the way, on a scale from I-IV.
I'm going to ramp up the terminology, so here goes. The labrum we are talking about is called the Glenoid Labrum. It's a ring of cartilage that expands to form the socket of the ball and socket joint that is the shoulder. It can be torn many ways (Aside: many, many god damn ways), most commonly through shoulder dislocations, however dislocation tears are much less serious than the tears suffered by pitchers. The difference is mostly location: Tears in the normal population affect the front and underside of the labrum- just above the inside of your armpit. Tears to throwers affect the top of the labrum, under the deltoid muscle, and they are called SLAP tears. The reason they are more serious, is that the pitcher uses their arm a lot more often than the average person, and the location of the tear (top and back of the labrum) involved the point that the biceps muscle connects to the larger connective tissue structure.
Still with me?
These tears (SLAP tears) are graded based upon severity, and based on the tissue involved. If the posterior (back) of the labrum is a bit frayed, but the biceps tendon is uninvolved, that's about as good as it gets. Avulsion is the term for an injury where one structure pulls away from another: Avulsion of the labrum from the scapula (the connective tissue pulling away from the bone) is another problem that arises in labrum injuries and causes a lot of the instability, increasing the grade of the injury from I to II. The worst thing you can find is a deep labrum tear that includes a tear of the biceps tendon (grade IV)- no pitcher that I know of has ever recovered from this injury.
When a doctor talks about "debridement" that means he was cutting away frayed and worthless tissue that was probably causing inflammation. When a doctor talks about repair, that usually means the reconnection of an avulsion injury to stabilize the joint, or suturing of the biceps attachment. I and III tears are usually only debrided, while II and IV grade tears are repaired.
Other findings in a labrum repair include bursitis, cysts, and joint capsule or rotator cuff problems. When the body attempts to repair the damage to the joint, it initiates a series of reactions that cause inflammation, which engorges the structures in the area with fluid, sometimes causing more problems. Cysts are formed by the body in reaction to tears and other problems to isolate areas of damage. Inflammation often causes joint capsule and rotator cuff problems because there is less space for these structures to move around one another.
Here's an article.
Some of the terminology used in the article doesn't sound right to me, and it's not just the thing about Hill being a Tony Robbins fan:
explaining how only a thread of the labrum had to be repaired and not the whole liner within the joint.
That's a very odd thing to say about the tissue, because the labrum doesn't exactly thread around (except at the biceps attachment, a spot that Hill probably didn't tear or didn't tear very much if at all). This sounds more like Hill is talking about the joint capsule or misusing the word thread.
Since the procedure was limited to correcting the sliver of labrum causing impingement in his joint
This is also a bit odd. Labrum problems are bad because they usually cause a lot of instability and weakness (this is why it made sense that Hill lost all of his command: A labrum injury implied that his upper arm wasn't as tightly connected to his body as it had been)- not necessarily impingement. The term impingement applied to the shoulder almost always means bursitis or tendonitis. Bursitis does often present as part of the entire shoulder injury syndrome along with joint capsule tearing and labrum fraying, but they are different things that cause different problems.
In all, I'd say I'll be ecstatic if Hill proves me wrong and really tears it up this spring. A true contest for the back end of the rotation would be excellent. It seems obvious that he had a good surgeon and some good luck with his shoulder, but only time will tell if he is truly healthy and truly ready to pitch.
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Damn fine work yet again hazel
I am actually starting to understand this stuff. I am gonna have to go back and look at all these related fanposts that you have blessed us with.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
what did hill mean when he said
his shoulder feels loose so he may change his arm slot? that sounds suspiciously like what mulder tried.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Do you have a link?
That’s bad news because it could mean an avulsion failed to heal or healed improperly.
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
that was joker's comment today
on the bgh post with the link that you responded to. having gone and read the entire article now, i found that nowhere in there, so it was either in a follow-up interview, or joker was making a joke with mulder in mind…which would explain why it sounded so much like him. so i’m hoping it was a joke – i’ll ask joker.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
btw, wasn't joker
it was pistol, and turns out it was a GOB-tempting joke.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
This was my favorite fanpost of the day.
Anyone else’s labrum hurt after reading that?
I'm not a player, I just mouth-breathe a lot
My shoulder capsule is screwed up already
But I guess that doesn’t really count.
I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...
Both my shoulders hurt all the damn time anyway.lol
this just gave me more things to think what it is.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Mar 8, 2010 8:42 PM EST up reply actions
my left shoulder acts like it is dislocated sometimes
"If you don't have outstanding relief pitching, you might as well piss on the fire and call the dogs." -WH
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Mine didn't,
but I hope there isn’t a follow-up on the lower back or knees. I’m pretty sure reading about those will give me a psychosomatic flareup.
Good form, hazel.
Very insightful. It’s nice to have someone who can take the reporting of Hill’s version of his shoulder surgery and tell us that Hill has no idea what he’s talking about. Thanks.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
not bad
my labral tear was a bankart lesion. I was only 17 when I had it repaired, so it was way before I was interested in becoming a PT so I didn’t know to ask and dont remember any details about the amount of damage. Tore it diving into second on a pickoff play and subluxing my shoulder posteriorly and inferiorly. I blame this for the reason that I’m not in the big leagues.
As far as the post goes, good information. No real points of contention for me. The only other thing I might add is the potential for developing bone spurs due to areas experiencing increased stress from the injury.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Well done hazel.
You explained it in a way that even us hairy and unwashed can understand it.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Mar 8, 2010 8:44 PM EST reply actions
an internal impingement of the shoulder,
which is not super common, but does occur in throwing athletes, can cause a posterior labral tear…and rotator cuff issues
this leads to decreased IR…which is a component of the follow through….important for command
this is probably what happened to rich hill’s shoulder, and may be what he meant by impingement, and often this type of labral tear is only a partial portion of the labrum, which could be the “thread” he talked about
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
I Don't Know Nuttin' 'bout that Medical Stuff...
…I remember as a calf when the paper said Mike Schmidt pulled his groin on national tv, I thought he was goin’ to jail…
;=8)
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Mar 9, 2010 8:53 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
Good Job with the explanation Hazel...
As a PT, I only have a couple areas of “contention”…
1. I believe Hill probably only had a small area of the labrum repaired, rather than a large portion. That would explain the use of the term “thread” rather than the entire liner of the joint. Drew Brees had a 360 degree labral tear…very rare, very disabling…which is amazing to see him in the position he is in now.
2. The use of the word impingement in this case is likely to mean something very different from the typical use of impingement. As stated above, it was likely creating a lack of internal rotation and therefore creating RC impingement.
The only difference I would state from what VolsnCards5 stated is that the lack of internal rotation often comes first, followed by rotator cuff and labral issues. Pitchers are so stressed into external rotation that they gain motion in that area and lose motion in the other direction.
3. Impingement does not mean tendonitis (which is often misused and should be tendinosis). At least not in a treatment sense. Yes impingement often leads to an inflamed tendon, but tendonitis typically refers to an overuse, whereas impingement is essentially encroachment on the rotator cuff tendon. Both usually lead to a some amount of bursitis, but you would treat the 2 issues somewhat differently.
I mostly agree:
1. Definitely possible. I don’t think Hill would be pitching now if he had had anything other than a very small labrum tear.
2. That’s possible, although I’m not sure that’s really different from tendonitis: often the tendon referred to is a RC tendon either being impinged by bursitis or other inflammation.
3. That’s true; I was trying to say impingement specifically in the shoulder is often a result of tendonitis/bursitis compressing the anatomical structures in it. However, it could be that they have the same or similar underlying causes, and they definitely have different treatments.
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
woo hoo another PT
You are correct re: tendonitis/tendonosis, and the preferred language is now tendonopathy because so many people screw it up.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I thought I'd let everyone know that Hazel got linked to on THT.
(I suppose that hazel could be linking to himself under the pseudonym “Nick Steiner.”)
The Five Questions feature addresses the Redbirds and is worth a read.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Silly me.
Nick Steiner is “vivaelpujols.” I was so excited about the link to this Fanpost that I linked to VEP’s Five Questions on THT before reading to the very end. My mistake.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
thanks for the link, bgh
struck me that vep had hill and garcia competing for the fifth spot with no mention of mcclellan (who was firmly entrenched in the bullpen section). unless the cards give garcia a start in spring training and run him out there for five innings, i’m of the firm belief that they want to take it slow with him by starting him out in memphis. of course, after yesterday’s performance they could go all waino 2006 on us, too. hill’s performance from here on out will determine where all the chips fall, imo.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
In VEP's defense,
it seems that there was some lag time in his writing the piece and it being published on the site. It seems to me that it is at least a three-man competition, with K-Mac as the frontrunner and Garcia as the longshot. I think we would all agree on that. My hope is that Garcia is a starting pitcher in 2010, whether that be in Memphis or St. Louis. I think my preference is for Garcia to start in Memphis and move up to St. Louis when a starter is injured. He could get six-to-eight MLB starts this year, I suspect. Then, in 2011, we could have 40 percent of our rotation as relatively cheap, young arms (K-Mac and Garcia). With what we’re paying Lohse, that would be a good thing.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I'd just like to say...
Rich Hill is pretty damn good in MLB 10 The Show for some reason despite that 89 mph fastball.
My fear is that his fastball isn't even going to be 89 MPH.
Hell, if he’s working around 89, that would be great.
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
I don't really care about his fastball speed
He has to be able to throw it for strikes, and throw it from the same arm slot as the curveball.
by vivaelpujols on Mar 17, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey, has his arm slot been the same over the last few seasons?
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
Here are the numbers
h v 1.10 6.48 - 2007 1.43 6.44 - 2008 1.25 6.34 - 2009
H is horizontal feet, V is vertical feet. So he hasn’t changed much over the past 3 years, but to be honest, I don’t know if those little changes are significant or not. Also, the release point is not directly measured by Pitch f/x, instead inferred by the trajectory of the ball. And given all of the park calibration problems in 2007, and a little bit in 2008, those numbers aren’t too reliable.
by vivaelpujols on Mar 17, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
And I don't have 2010 Spring training data imported yet, so we can't really check
by vivaelpujols on Mar 17, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, the telling data will be the 2010 stuff-
it looks quite different to me, but that could just be bias or me remembering Sean Marshall instead of Rich Hill.
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
curve
"If you don't have outstanding relief pitching, you might as well piss on the fire and call the dogs." -WH
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions

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