Rehearsing the Albert Pujols deal
by DanUpBaby on Mar 22, 2010 6:01 AM EDT
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I can think of at least one fanbase that was following the Joe Mauer contract negotiations more closely than the Cardinals', and maybe two or three, depending on how closely the Yankees and Red Sox were already scouting him. But few teams have more in common with the St. Louis Machings than the Twins, who have operated for the last two or three years under the unshakable worry that Joe Mauer would eventually be calling a press conference to announce to a grateful press that he'd always wanted to be a [Yankee/Red Sock], ever since he'd fallen in love with the sweet swing of [Jorge Posada/Jason Veritek].
For Bill DeWitt it had to be a vaguely unsettling press release, like getting a message from Future Bill with a note attached saying "Only worse!" in his own handwriting. Eight years, $184 million will pay Mauer $23 million a year until he's 35, which is a lot of money and old for a catcher, respectively, but they couldn't not make this deal; there is being financially prudent and there is being the Marlins, and while the latter option might net two World Series victories nobody will be around to watch the second one.
A deal that might not be financially perfect but is necessary to maintain the fanbase to which you've become accustomed—I've heard something like this before.
One of the deals this contract most closely resembles is C.C. Sabathia's
One thing definitely didn't come into play for Mauer, a St. Paul native who was probably miffed about Target Field being built in Minneapolis: a hometown discount. As teams look increasingly to lock young players up early and through their arbitration years, and grow more wary about overpaying second tier free agents, the first tier that's left become more valuable; once you realize Jason Bay isn't the same as Matt Holliday, it becomes more important to end up with Matt Holliday. Joe Mauer was the most valuable potential free agent this side of Albert Pujols, and he got paid like one; I can't imagine he'd have gotten much, if any, more as an actual free agent in 2011.
Where does it leave the Cardinals and Pujols? Somewhat short of the two Alex Rodriguez superdeals, if that's any consolation. Pujols is better than Mauer, and as a first baseman doesn't have any further to slide along the defensive spectrum, but he'll also be four years older than Mauer when his contract starts. He's not better-enough than Joe Mauer, I think, to get a contract that runs until he's 42 and pays him an addition 50 or 60 million dollars.
An eight year contract for Albert Pujols would—let's be honest, it will—take him through his age-40 season, which is no more reasonable than the Twins' recent acquisition of a 35 year-old catcher on a one year, $23 million deal. It's just how these contracts have worked lately—there is a little wish-casting at the end to make up for the fact that these guys are being undervalued in the prime of their careers by accepting even $23 million. Whatever you think of Fangraphs and its valuation of Pujols and Mauer, general managers, owners, and talk radio phone banks aren't prepared for the idea that a player can be worth $40 million in one year; until that changes, and some combination of team and player front-loads a shorter-than-expected contract for an incredible amount of money, there's no way around it.
Of course there's a point at which the dollar value of a deal, whether measured by Fangraphs or the amount of angry letters to the editor it generates from local doctors, teachers, and firemen (and admirers of same), becomes secondary to the other concerns that become entangled with keeping Joe Mauer or Albert Pujols around. The Twins are opening up a new park, and they probably just sold a few more season tickets; certainly they quieted the inevitable post-stadium whining about opening up the BillPohlad, at least for the time being.
The Cardinals, who have a larger baseball market and a longer run of best-satisfied-fandom-in-baseball upon which to draw, may not have as much to lose as the Twins if the Pujols negotiation gets contentious. But they have the same extracurricular benefits of a Pujols deal to think about, and because of that I can't see them getting any nearer a Hometown Discount. The Twins needed Mauer and the Cardinals need Pujols, and that's a difficult place from which to start negotiating.
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Great article
Maybe we should have a groupthink guesstimate as to the Pujols deal (as we do with the “community projections” for individual players’ next seasons)?
I’m going to go for a nice, round 8 years, $200m, with some of the cash deferred.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
Or youcould go with a 6 year deal of like 150 million
Then have 2 option’s tacked on to it. Say a player option in year 7, then a player and team option in year 8. At least that’s how I’d handle it.
+100
This is exactly cow I predict things will go. Pujols may be worth 30 mil a year, but I just don’t see it happening, not in this financial environment, and also since Pujols isn’t repped by Scot Boras. 25 mil a yea for 6 years, but option in year 7 & 8 seems very reasonable to both sides – Albert gets his moolah, and we don’t pay ARod prices, and have moore flexibility as Albert ages and (maybe) declines. I think signing Holliday has gone a long way to showing Albert that the FO is serious about winning now while he is still at his peak, and they should cowtinue to show such aggressiveness until a new deal is signed (locking up Wainy, for example, would be the next good moove).
My tail isn’t twitching too badly over this, which tells me that one way or an-udder, it will get done and we will keep our Manster.
:=8)
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
Pujols is worth $30m/yr now
he sure won’t be when he’s 39 years old.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Mar 22, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
destroy him, Albert
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
that's probably fair
assuming $3.5m/WAR now and 10% inflation (completely WAG), that’ll be about $7m/WAR when Albert’s 39. I guess it’s quite possible he’s a 4/5-win player at that age.
I wonder if FA values won’t kind of plateau for a couple of post-recession years, though, so they might only have bounced back to pre-recession levels by then. I suppose it’s all very expensive guess work!
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Mar 22, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
There are a lot of assumptions that go in to the model, for sure
$/win environment, positional scarcity (more of a problem with the Mauer negotiations than Albert’s), revenue growth forecasts, cost of debt, etc., and these are only the things I imagine, sure there are many more (likelihood of on-field success?).
With all that said, I’m sure there are monkeys for our FO that model the worst- best- and base-case scenarios and valuations are done at those ranges as a starting point. Then comparable players precedent deals are factored…by then the team should have a pretty good idea of what would be accretive.
I'm not a player, I just mouth-breathe a lot
30M based on WAR values, right?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Mar 22, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
hate all you want folks, but, I gotta say this.
Dude, the fucking cow shit, its fucking retarded, what are you, 8?? grow the fuck up and join the real world you goddamn goofy bastard.
by MO'toole on Mar 23, 2010 2:54 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It effectively puts a neon sign pointing to the comment
that says… nothing to see here move along…
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
well, you made your first comment here a doozy.
you really joined just to say that?
i don’t think that any site on sbn allows personal attacks like this, and this site is no exception.
"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."
I really, really, really hope that you actually
have the word tool in your name, it would be delicious.
Belief that success is inevitable is as likely to hold you back as a belief that it is impossible.
I think they do.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Evan Lysacek: 2010 Olympic Gold Medalist ♥
:=8P
Don’t be a self-hater – its 2010, you can come out of the closet now. Join us!
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
MO'toole?
More like MOO’toole
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Mar 23, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Nuttin' Worse Than a Big Fat Hairy Ol' Cow Ashamed of His/Her Heritage...
…and striking out at udders.
We are cow, hear us moo!
:=8D
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
Of all your comments
this has been the only one that sparked this in my mind…
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
hilarious
moo-staches and che both in that clip.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
someone doesn't have a clue
eat the cow’s shit
Allen Craig > Nick Stavinoha
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 23, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
any player options are likely to be picked up, no?
he’ll be 38 in year 7; any sort of decent player option ($20m+) is surely going to be at least as much as he’d make on the open market, and a 2-year deal seems unlikely even for a very awesome 38-yo.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Mar 22, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
That seems about right
The Cards love deferring money. Depending on how much money gets def’d that could push the actual/real value of the contract closer to 30mil. Albert could still be getting paid by the Cards when he is a very old man.
I don’t agree with the talking heads that say it’ll be ~30mil deal. That would basically be counterproductive and I think Al realizes that.
Option years would be the factor that I am most interested in.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Mar 22, 2010 7:01 AM EDT up reply actions
i wonder what number he has in mind
and how willing he’ll be to keep negotiating if he feels like he’s being low-balled
i also wonder how big of a deal i’d be for him to move away from st louis, considering he has his foundation, restaurant etc here
i just wonder how many shots we have with him to hand him a number
how
is deferring money gonna make the real value of the contract closer to $30MM?
or am i just misunderstanding you?
i imagine he’ll get about 25 AAV with deferred money bringing the actual AAV paid out to around 22-23
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
I was envisioning around 25mil annually
with def’d money on top of that
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Mar 22, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Here's my 2 cents.....
8 years 216 milllllllion dollars (insert diabolical laughter). However, I seriously doubt that we have to worry about it until after this season. I say the Mang drags his feet to get a sniff of what offers could possibly be out there.
CALL A FAIR GAME BLUE!
by One Flew Over The Cardinals Nest on Mar 22, 2010 8:07 AM EDT up reply actions
8yr/200mil sounds about right to me
"If you don't have outstanding relief pitching, you might as well piss on the fire and call the boggs." -WH
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 22, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
10 yr 200M with 5M/yr defered
why not?
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
It may be
a stroke of genius luck that the markets time out that the next contract is significantly smaller than if it had been done in 08 rather than in 2011. Would you rather have Mauer at this price or Tex?
Belief that success is inevitable is as likely to hold you back as a belief that it is impossible.
wow engrish major I am not
Belief that success is inevitable is as likely to hold you back as a belief that it is impossible.
I love engrish
make sure to sign up for the cbs league, tomcat!
"If you don't have outstanding relief pitching, you might as well piss on the fire and call the boggs." -WH
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 22, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Do It Mo
I think we are all going to agree on @ $25 million per year. Question is how long? 6 to 8 seems reasonable. Dear Mo, just do it!
SD
Value to Pujols
In these things there are a lot of intrinsic benefits to Albert aside from the cash so I don’t think it unreasonable that Pujols will sign for an amount that does not cripple the franchise.
First of all he wants to win. He knows that every dollar he absorbs above a certain level means that Joe Thurston is likely to be sending errant missiles at him from 3B. It is in his best interests to get both a salary that works for him AND one that works for team.
Second, those great photos of the Stan the Man with Albert certainly must resonate with him. If he stays with us until Age 40, he knows that he will be an icon in St. Louis for the rest of his life. He won’t get that if he moves to another team. Every one is different, but that would seem to be a powerful attraction.
Third, he likes playing for TLR so to the extent that they keep TLR in the fold, he is more likely to want to play out the final 8 years here than anywhere else. I have never bought into the TLR might quit thing. He’s like Brett Favre. He’ll keep on ticking.
Fourth, better the devil you know than the devil you don’t. A lot of teams make great pitches that they will sign players (see Rangers for A-rod or the Dodgers now) and things change on a dime. Cards have been very consistent and have proven they are in for long haul.
If I were the Cards, I would sign him for $15-20 a year and give him a cut of the gate receipts that could max him out at $30-40 million. Therefore, his salary goes up with their ability to pay and is still pretty good if they have some off seasons. Albert gets a chance at maxxing his whole value without crippling team.
Just win
I'll be the bad guy.
But you have more faith in players then I do. I do think he will re sign but I think your reasoning is off. Players think of money #1 and #2 and then everything else. Fans and players have different needs. I think the money will be there, or close enough, for your points to be valid but only if the money is close.
Given all your points would he take 15 mill a season? I don’t think so. The only way I see him signing for something way under market is if his contract includes some “marketing deal” type thing that pays him after he retires. Or deeds over to him the arch so he can get a percent of each ticket sold to ride in that capsule to the top.
And what about a no trade clause?
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Mar 22, 2010 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions
And what about a no trade clause?
I’d give him one. No trade clauses could be worked around, if the need be.
He is 10 & 5 after this season,
so he already has a no trade clause.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
CBA prevents the team from giving him a cut of gate receipts
That would be deemed and “ownership stake” and is illegal by baseball’s labor rules.
Also prevents the MLB from giving him a cut of his jersey sales and things like that.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Actually
I believe that it was up until 1994. I think George Brett had a lifetime contract with the Royals that included a percentage of the team, but I could be wrong on that.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
that's an excellent deal
however, what does lifetime mean? he can’t transfer it to anyone and it’s done with after he kicks it?
i just think that, even if it were allowed, dewitt would probably be reluctant to give part ownership to anyone, be it albert pujols or god, who in this case might be regarded as the same person
Topical and timely:
Today, via Calcaterra:
Why players can’t own a piece of the team
I'm not a player, I just mouth-breathe a lot
I hate CTB's Google Reader feed because it does not denote what posts are authored by Calcaterra.
I do not really care to read AP news stories or posts by the other authors. I wish I knew before I clicked on the link that opens a new tab who the author is.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
What about beer distributorships?
Are those still fair game?
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
I think Pujols and his agent would laugh at that
Gate receipts aren’t guaranteed money.
Agree a little.
But why do agents let players defer money with zero interest?
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Mar 22, 2010 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
15M now or 13 now 4 later?
While taking the 15 now and investing it might make you the extra 2 in the long run that isn’t gaurenteed and if the team can only afford 15 you can’t just ask for 17 up front.
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
If I were the Cards, I would sign him for $15-20 a year and give him a cut of the gate receipts that could max him out at $30-40 million.
I’m fairly sure that’s against the CBA; I don’t think such a proviso is plausible.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Mar 22, 2010 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
ah.
nex def’d
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Mar 22, 2010 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the TLR factor could be very important.
Because I don’t think TLR is leaving STL unless its to retire or because the FO has made some very poor decisions. If its the latter, Albert probably goes, too.
"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR
give him a cut of the gate receipts that could max him out at $30-40 million.
I like this idea. But is this allowed under baseball’s CBA?
How, specifically, is it banned?
Can he get a bonus based on attendance?
I’m no expert on the CBA, but if you can get a bonus for winning an MVP or Cy Young, I’d be surprised that you can’t get a bonus based on other things that would approximate gate receipts even if a cut of gate receipts is prohibited
Just win
i'm pretty certain you can get an attendance bonus
which is just another way of saying a percentage of the gate. i think this happened in the last two years, but having a hard time coming up with who it would have been, unless it was manny in LA. for that matter, though, i may be thinking of beckham in soccer.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Ah yes the MLS...
the sport where all players are paid from the home office… gotta love it.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
it was griffey
last year. now i remember. def an attendance bonus…i believe.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Griffey's deal with Seattle last year had an attendance bonus,
Why not 6 years $150 mil (with some money deferred) and a couple club options at $25 mil per year that become player options at something like $20 mil if the club options are declined. That way, he’d make Bankasaurus Rex and he protects his club by giving them the option to pay him less if he’s no good when he’s old.
options
what about transferring a percentage of ownership in the franchise to Pujols?
that keeps him around for life, and could cut down “dollar” cost of the deal couldn’t it?
or what about the idea of signing him for years beyond his playing days at a reduced $/per/year amount – and simply stating that Albert will be a part of the franchise forever whether playing, coaching, performing as spokesperson and/or living legend?
I dunno this is all interesting option's
But IIRC all contract’s both have to not violate the CBA, and be approved by the league. So that put’s a little bit of a dent into being to creative.
Didn't Maris get a brewery?
Of course rules were different then.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Mar 22, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd kill for a Pabst Blue Ribbon Distributorship.
Anything with a blue ribbon on it is good stuff.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Mar 22, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
you took the words right out of my mouth
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
You have tasted it right???
You know it tastes like stale cat pee… and don’t ask me how I know what stale cat pee tastes like it was a dark time in my life…
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
So....it tastes like most of the American beer you see in commercials?
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Mar 22, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
good thing budweiser is overseas now
or my and my Budweiser ‘B’ tattoo would be offended
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
PBR may be the worst beer I've ever tasted
that or High Life Light
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Mar 22, 2010 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
fmtwp,
me the beast
beast, fmtwp
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
by prophetjohn on Mar 22, 2010 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
meet*
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
by prophetjohn on Mar 22, 2010 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
the beast is pretty horrid
but drinking a kegsworth of it in college has given me immunity to its suckiness…damn T-Towners.
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Mar 22, 2010 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I knew some people from T-Town in school...
the loved Natty Light for some reason. I can only assume the drinking water there is very polluted to get them geared up to drinking it.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
Beast is mildly better than Beast Lite.
…Beast Pong was always the worst.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
All Lite Beer is an Anathema to Me...
…its just beer-flavored soda. but as far as actual bad beer goes, Carling Black Label is just about the worst slop I ever tried. We cudn;t even give it away. Tequiza is pretty bad too, dunno if they still make it.
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
I think I'm related to half of T-Town
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
Pablo Sandoval...
…got a Dunkin’ Donuts factory as part of his deal…
;=8)
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Mar 22, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Maris didn't get a share in the team itself
Anheuser-Busch and the Cardinals were considered separate corporate entities, even though the Cardinals were a subsidiary.
by Michael_68_1999 on Mar 22, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
maris didn't get a share in the brewery either
he was given a distributorship. anybody know where?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
giving up ownership of the team is 100% against the cba.
I know that fo sho.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Mar 22, 2010 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
That rule makes no sense to me.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
Did you see my link above?
Actually makes a lot of sense when its laid out due to potential conflict of interest.
I'm not a player, I just mouth-breathe a lot
Hornsby'd
But my point is I don’t see anyone in today’s game making a Godfather offer like that then trading the player away… However I was playing my old NHL 2K6 a few months back and tried to trade for Lemieux and it cut it off saying that Pittsburgh would not trade it’s owner which I found humorous…
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
the top post is pretty dreamy today
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
so dreamy i had to wait all day just to post in it
Hope is the worst of all evils, for it prolongs the torment of man
I just remember when the Twins were stupid for passing up Mark Prior.
Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.
- John Wayne
Is Prior Still Pitching...
…or is he grilling dogs along side the likes of Brien Taylor and Matt Anderson?
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
I heard a blip about him last year
then he was gone again
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
dmitri young was way better
he made 52.8
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
he also has a business degree from USC
I think he’ll be fine
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Mar 22, 2010 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
You could still make that argument I think.
The Twins with Mark Prior in 2002-2004 might have had a shot at winning a World Series. Those teams were missing that second stud starting pitcher and Prior could have been that guy.
Perhaps if you take Prior away from Dusty Baker early in his career he avoids injury.
I, for one, thought Mauer was an excellent choice for them at the time. He was clearly the best position player in the draft and the Twins had a pitching rich farm system already that was graduating 1 to 2 starting pitchers to the majors every other year.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Don't forget that he is from the Twin Cities, too.
I thought Mauer was a good pick, but I’m pretty skeptical of projecting pitching talent.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I think Catchers
are also very hard to predict. Think about the best catchers of the last 25 years. Piazza was a 63rd round pick. Charles Johnson was a middle round pick. Pudge didn’t get a huge signing bonus. There aren’t a lot of great catchers who were first round type talent at one time — they seem to come out of nowhere.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
But his swing has always been a beauty to behold.
I guess I figured that third or first could be in his future, if the whole catching thing didn’t work out. Of course, this could just be a contrarian view that hardened in the face of Cub fans constantly touting Prior, and frequently taunting Twin fans about their franchise’s choice.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I think that this was the case decades ago, but now.
Look at the best catcher prospects.
Buster Posey – 5th overall
Matt Wieters – 5th overall
Jesus Montero – 1.6m signing bonus
Carlos Santana – Traded in package for Casey Blake.
But I think this speaks more for how far scouting has come rather than catchers themselves.
In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his recievers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
yeah
also, the examples fourstick mentioned above were somewhat isolated ones (I realise it’s three in a span of a decade or so, but that doesn’t necessarily prove anything – you could say the same about first basemen, Albert Pujols drafted 402nd overall, Kevin Youkilis drafted 243rd overall, etc)
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Mar 22, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok
But Wieters, Posey, Montero, and Santana really haven’t done much yet. They’re great prospects, but so was Rick Ankiel once upon a time. Non-Cardinal fans aren’t even going to remember who he is in 5 years.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
He's Euclis. The Greek God of Walks
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Moneyball'd
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
I would agree on the scouting
If all of those guys pan out, it would be the second Golden Age of catchers, after the ’65 – ’80 era that had Bench, Berra, Fisk, Munson, Simmons, McCarver, Porter, and Boone.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
You can't really include Berra in that group
His last year was ‘65, it was his age-40 year, he only had 9 PAs, and he didn’t even play in ’64
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 22, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Berra was in the same generation as Garagiola
I remember a story my dad told me about Garagiola (Joe G. and Berra both grew up at the same time on The Hill in St. Louis).
Some season (I’m not sure which) Garagiola was having a really great year and some reporter asked Joe how it felt to be the “best catcher in baseball”.
Joe responded….“The best catcher in baseball? Hell, I’m not even the best catcher on my block”.
Or something like that….
Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.
- John Wayne
Yah...that was a stretch I guess
I thought he played until ‘68 or ’69, but I didn’t bother to look it up.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
He's not from the Twin Cities
he is the twin cities. lebron is to cleveland as mauer is to MSP
"...and pujols has given st louis the lead"
The Best Defensive Play I Have Seen in Person/a>
by tgreenfield on Mar 22, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think taking a position player over a pitcher in the draft is EVER *necessarily* a bad move
I think there’s even a reasonable argument to be made that the Nats wouldn’t have been totally stupid to make Ackley the #1 pick last year. Smaller signing bonus, less risk, more money to blow on other draftees etc etc. No, I wouldn’t have done it, but it wouldn’t have been completely ridiculous.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Mar 22, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Tom House ruined Mark Prior
more than Dusty Baker ruined Mark Prior
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
I think if you take Prior away from the ball that zinged off his elbow
he avoids injury
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
Thanks fer the Tip....
it was a field work weekend, which means I worked 7 hours on Sat and 6 on Sunday, which meant I really had no weekend, and I can’t access fantasy stuff at work (stupid government!), so I will go to CBS tonight git myself ready.
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
at least 'Nova played well....
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
are you signed up now, Moo?
"If you don't have outstanding relief pitching, you might as well piss on the fire and call the boggs." -WH
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 22, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Not Until I Get Home After Work
which is after 5 Real Time (Eastern Standard)…
;=8)
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
Hmmmm....
…all I see are mock fantasy drafts for baseball – cud the league info be sent to me again? Pretty please????
:=8.
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
stupid govt, HA!
so are you saying if i get this tsa job i applied for i won’t be able to still sit & talk on veb all day?
Hope is the worst of all evils, for it prolongs the torment of man
Hate to Break it to Ya, Kid....
VEB is in, but anything relating to fantasy, games, or, oddly enough, rpg, es verboten.
:=8/
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
today's lineup against Boston
1. Schumaker 2B
2. Ryan SS
3. Holliday (no position listed — LF or DH)
4. Rasmus CF
5. LaRue C
6. Jay RF
7. Gotay 1B
8. Henly LF or DH
9. Solano 3B
mystery lineups are up
Albert not in for reasons to be explained later. or something.
via Goold
The lineup vs. Boston (just posted here in Jupiter):
1. Skip Schumaker, 2B
2. Brendan Ryan, SS
3. Matt Holliday, ??
4. Colby Rasmus, CF
5. Jason LaRue, C
6. Jon Jay, RF
7. Ruben Gotay, 1B
8. Tyler Henley, ??
9. Donovan Solano, 3B
Starting pitcher: Brad Penny. Also scheduled to pitch: Adam Ottavino.
The team La Russa had written out Sunday evening to come north and meet him in Kissimmee [positions logic’d out]:
1. Felipe Lopez, 2B
2. Tyler Greene, SS
3. Allen Craig, 1B
4. Ryan Ludwick, RF
5. Yadier Molina, C
6. Nick Stavinoha, LF
7. David Freese, 3B
8. Joe Mather, CF
9. Kyle Lohse, P
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I believe the Astros will be on tv, and the Red Sox will be on radio
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
FSM
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
i'm tempted to watch and listen at the same time
though not sure if i have the opportunity to do this buzzed….
who’s with me?
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
cool...now to jump online and set the dvr
in order to watch tonight. This technology crap is pretty cool.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
from your hovercar?
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Mar 22, 2010 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
i dont think red sox are on the radio.
or, if they are, gameday audio isn’t carrying it, which pisses me off.
"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR
I'm listening to it right now, though.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
.....time to panic!!
per Leach
Albert Pujols was initially slated to play in the Cardinals’ Monday afternoon game at home against the Astros, but instead has been scratched due to a recurrence of tightness in his lower back.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
heh
Ruben Gotay will play first base for the first time in his career in Pujols’ absence.
"Only in practice," Gotay said of first base.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Mar 22, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
my sources tell me Albert is not in because
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Mar 22, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
New meme!!!!
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Mar 22, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Chris Duncan to minors
http://espn.go.com/mlb/blog//name/mlbspring_training/id/5017619/march-22
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
and I'm guessing this link is broken. one sec.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Mar 22, 2010 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
n/m, it works.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Mar 22, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Chris' career is just
about over. He needs to mash the ball ASAP just to earn ABs at AAA.
Oh, man... he takes my idea
At least you did it better. I posted mine using a phone, so quality control was almost nonexistent.
This deal is a very good sign
I know this is a big deal, but I think its a very good sign. Albert and the Cardinals were not going to start to negotiations until they knew what Maurer’s deal was going to be worth and now the Cardinals have a frame work to start from. Not to mention Albert is 2 years older. So its not under reasonable to think that this is would what we should be able to sign Albert for.
I would hope that that Cardinals could get a deal done for $192M/8yr ($24 per), but I think the deal will have to be closer to $200/8yr to get it done, and frankly I think the cardinals can afford that assuming that they raise the payroll by $10M to keep him.
The best contract for the Cardinals might be a $150M, 6 year deal with 2 or 3 option years at around $22.5 or $20M per, but I really don’t think that would get the deal done unfortunately
FWIW
I am of the school of thought that this deal doesn’t really impact significantly on the Pujols negotiations. It’s maybe a rough framework of what our deal might look like, but I think we sort of knew that already, anyway. I think the two situations are really quite different.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Mar 22, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Quite Different?
I just don’t see that big of a difference. In both situations he have a franchise player for a mid-market team up for a new contract. In both situations the player is the most popular player on a winning team and is the best player at their respective positions.
No question that Albert is more consistent and has done it for longer, but Teix and Mauer have now set the market for which the Cardinals can use those frameworks and up the deal a little to get Albert done. If Albert rejects a contract which comes in slightly ahead of $23 or $24 a year then he will look like a huge bad guy and I just don’t think he wants that
Albert's older and signing his 2nd post-arby deal
and I think, to some extent, has more ties with his club than Mauer did (I realise that’s arguable). He also (as you said) has a much longer run of excellence than Mauer, who’s actually been quite inconsistent in his career so far – there are questions over whether 2009 was an unsustainable career year, or whether it’s a measure of Mauer just hitting his peak at 27 (I think it’s a little of both), whereas with Albert we pretty much know what we’re going to get for the next 3-4 years, barring injuries, before he starts to really decline.
The positional difference is quite marked, too – Albert will continue to be a 1B for his contract, and will probably continue to be a pretty serviceable one for the length of it, too. With Mauer it’s a much bigger question mark – as others have said, he gains 2-3 wins a year by being a good defensive catcher, and the impact of a likely future move to 1B (or even 3B) or DH remains something of a nebulous one to predict and project, value-wise.
I also think there’s a major fear (from the Twins’ point of view) that Mauer would’ve been guaranteed a monster deal from NYY at the end of 2010 – they’ll likely be in need of a catcher (presuming Montero has to move to DH/1B), and willing to pay for the best in the game. In contrast, they don’t really seem to have a spot for a 1B, going forward, as it would mean getting rid of Tex (and, potentially, A-Rod, who might ultimately end up there). As for the BoSox, well, they’re probably well enough set at both 1B and C, although I get the feeling Adrian Gonzalez ends up there this year. I can’t really see where Albert ends up, other than as a lifetime Cardinal, unless the Dodgers or Mets got involved, and it’s probably fair to state there were more possible big market suitors who would/could pay Mauer’s price (LAA, NYY, ?Bos, NYM) and have a spot for him than was the case for Pujols (NYM, LAD).
You’re right that the Mauer deal is a fair framework, but I think we already knew the rough ballpark it’d take to keep Albert (somewhere north of $20m and south of $30m, and a contract that lasts likely 6-8 years), and I think there are enough differences between the two situations that this news doesn’t really crystallise the likely Pujols deal to any great extent.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Mar 22, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
It's quite possible he declines in after 3-4 years
but it isn’t a given.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Mar 22, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
true
but we’re sort of doing a risk analysis here, aren’t we? The most likely scenario is that he starts to decline (possibly as soon as 3 years from now, as I’ve seen a few curves suggesting position players peak around 29-32 and it’s a gradual downhill slope from there, before really picking up pace in the late-30s). Obviously how much, how soon and how precipitously is a question, but it’s one we can answer with some degree of predictive accuracy by looking at the careers of his nearest comps, factoring in his health history, looking at projections, looking at the way various attributes (eye, power, speed, defense) generally age in similar skillsets etc.
I have no idea how to put all of this together, but that’s basically what we’re guesstimating when we’re trying to determine what he’ll likely be worth, going forward. I would assume that the vast majority of likely scenarios would have him starting to decline in his early-to-mid-30s (personally, I get the feeling I’m slightly more pessimistic than most Cards’ fans on his ageing curve going forwards, and I feel he’s also more likely than not to have a serious injury of some sort in his 30s, as most players do).
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Mar 22, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
I thought I saw a study recently that HOF caliber players
have a later start to their decline phase (32-33) and that it’s a lesser slope. Anyone else recall that?
Think; It's not illegal yet.
yeah, i think it was bounced around a little bit during the Holliday negotiations
I’m a little hazy, though. Still, that only gives Albert another 3 seasons at his peak.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Mar 22, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Not sure if I have read that before
But, considering that a decline by Albert would mean a few years of 6 WAR instead of 8-10 would not exactly be devastating to this team.
On a side note, if you are the cardinals how many more years do you predict 8-10 WAR seasons from Pujols? I would think 4 and then hopefully a gracious slide from 8 to 4 WAR per year over his 35-38 year old seasons.
Especially when you consider that he bats for a high average and plays a less then rigorous defensive position which may help the aging curve as well
He's only exceeded 8 WAR 3 times in the last 8 seasons
and has never hit 10, and he has been unusually healthy (i.e. you have to factor in a few more days on the DL, going forward, than he’s had in the past) so I think you’re a little excessive on the 8-10 WAR valuation. I’d say he’s probably a 7-WAR guy (projections-wise) going forward, and, if Azru’s assertion of 33 as the start of his decline phase holds true, he should produce another 3 years of that.
This is assuming no major injuries, although of course the 7 WAR (which is a bit below his current very consistent 8 WAR production) probably factors in a bit more time on the DL than previously.
If he’s going to decline at a 0.5 WAR/yr rate (which is also very optimistic, I’d imagine, but possible) we’d be looking at:
yr1: 7 WAR
yr2: 7 WAR
yr3: 7 WAR
yr4: 6.5 WAR
yr5: 6 WAR
yr6: 5.5 WAR
yr7: 5 WAR
yr8: 4.5 WAR
total = 48.5 WAR
That’s worth about $170m at today’s FA values.
Assuming a 5% inflation in FA values per season, it’s $204m
Assuming a 10% inflation in FA values per season, it’s $267m
However, if we’re more aggressive on the ageing, and knock off 1 WAR per year (which is probably closer to a “normal” ageing profile, but still a totally wild-ass guesstimate):
yr1: 7 WAR
yr2: 7 WAR
yr3: 7 WAR
yr4: 6 WAR
yr5: 5 WAR
yr6: 4 WAR
yr7: 3 WAR
yr8: 2 WAR
total = 41 WAR
That’s worth about $145m at today’s FA values.
Assuming a 5% inflation in FA values per season, it’s $173m
Assuming a 10% inflation in FA values per season, it’s $226m
So, you pays your money and takes your chances….
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Mar 22, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry
I should have been more specific about which WAR rating I was using. I normally use Sean Smith’s database for my WAR data instead of Fangraphs. I find that the other sites i visit normally use it, like beyond the boxscore.
anyway fangraphs and Sean smith are close but Sean Smith’s WAR seems to be a higher scale so under Sean Smith’s ratings Pujols has 7 straight years above 8 WAR and that is what i was referring to.
I'm so biased, but I see Pujols aging well
He’s so good at every aspect of hitting that I think he’ll be able to compensate when his athleticism starts to dry up. I could very easily see him at age 40 still being .290/.420/.550 guy to be a 4-5 WAR player.
Not afraid to nitpick
tbh, I think that's a very distinct possibility
I think he’s the best right-handed hitter I’ve ever seen, so it’s kinda hard to determine comps for him. He is the dictionnary definition of an outlier, pretty much.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Mar 22, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
if Julio Franco can play until he's eligible for social security
then so can Albert
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
breakfast
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
EAT MOR CHIKN
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
would be interested in having a link to that study, az, but
consider a player like Hank Aaron – in his age 30 year (1964), he had an OPS of .907 – in his age 39 year (1973), he had an OPS of 1.045 – in between these years, his lowest ops was .852 and his high was 1.079 (indeed from his age 21 season, his OPS was in that range) – very consistent year in and year out, though he did begin playing noticeably fewer games in 1971 – he finally shows a decline in his OPS in his age 40 season – now I have no idea if Aaron is any sort of comp for AP, but it is far from a given that HOF’s begin to decline anytime before their late 30s – and factor in that conditioning is taken much seriously these days
FWIW
Pujols’ top comp up to age 30 at BR is Frank Thomas.
The Big Hurt is something of a cautionary tale, as he fell away somewhat precipitously after age 30 and only broke 4 WAR twice after that period. Obviously, I’m not saying that WILL happen to Albert, but that possibility has to be factored in – if there’s, say, a 10% chance he succumbs to nagging injuries over the latter part of his career in the way Thomas did, that’s still a distinct possibility for his future.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Mar 22, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
thanks, FM
The Big Hurt is a scary comp for Albert – but he was some player in his prime
Obviously Aaron/Bonds would be the more optimistic view :-)
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Mar 22, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Ummm part of Bonds
would be an optimistic view. I really don’t want a surly jackass running around for the last 5 years of the contract.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
beat me to it.
.609 OBP in 2004, his age 39 season. Gimme gimme gimme.
I'm not a player, I just mouth-breathe a lot
I also don't wan to have to defend
the magic growing head to my friends. I’m also a guy who would rather root for decent guys who aren’t on the front pages than a bunch of creeps and cheaters. Really I just enjoy people who Play the Game the Right Way ©
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
But you're an emotionless robot...
You can’t feel the joy of rooting for people who Play the Game the Right Way ©. You can only feel the cold results of a binary win or loss system.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
It's nice when they coincide
but I’ve never been one who cared when players took steroids. Just me though.
Think; It's not illegal yet.
Nor have I...
I just don’t want to have to defend the players I root for. I personally don’t care what they do I just don’t like them making my life more difficult because they wear the laundry I root for.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
Big Hurt in his prime
is as bout as close to Pujols as anyone has been
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
juan gone also crops up in a list of comparables, iirc.
"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."
Great rundown!!
Throwing in my $.02…I think the per annum for Pujols is pretty well set at $25M…it’s a fair number for both parties. The question remains how many years. I think the team is looking at 6 and Pujols at 8. Perhaps a 7/$175M with a mutual option for 1/$25M is quite likely…?
If you see a guy open the car door for his girlfriend, either the car is new or the girlfriend is.
by cardzfanbub on Mar 22, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Good Points
Of course you cannot argue with the fact that Mauer is younger, less consistent and has a positional question mark in his future.
My point though is that this contract and Tiex’s contract give the Cardinals a nice framework to use, and importantly puts the number per year closer to $23M then $30M and I think that is important for the Cardinals. The closer the Cardinals can get to have this contract avg out to $23M/year the better. Without these deals the Cardinals would simply have A-Rod’s deals to compare to and the Cardinals simply cannot pay that type of money
Yeah
but I really don’t think we can pay (or would ever have to pay) $30m in any case. I also don’t think the Yankees need him enough to make that a realistic possibility. I think it was always going to be in the $25m/yr ballpark, and I dunno if this changes that too much. We’ll see, I guess!
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Mar 22, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Yep
I see 23-25/year as the best estimate as well and maybe the Mauer deal didn’t change that, but I just see it as cementing the price. whether that is good or bad for the Cardinals I am not sure
In terms of teams we would be worried about, I would think the Red Sox would throw everything they have at Albert to sign him, considering they need a 1B. Also remeber teams like the Dodgers and Giants might also reach to spend crazy amount for a player like Albert
I dunno about the Giants
but I think you could definitely be right about the Dodgers – I think both they and the Mets might be players for Albert, although that somewhat depends on their recent issues in terms of the finances of their respective ownership.
Dunno about the BoSox – I think it sort of depends on where they have Youk pencilled in long-term, and whether they make a play for Adrian Gonzalez this year (which I think they will), but you’re certainly right that there’d be nothing totally restricting them from making a play for Pujols. FWIW, I’d rather see him move to the AL (in fact, if we couldn’t agree a deal, I’d rather they just traded him to Boston next off-season for, say, Buccholz and Bard or something).
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Mar 22, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
My guess
a 7-year, $189mil deal, paying out 30, 29, 28, 27, 26, 25 and 24. With perhaps an option for an 8th year.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 22, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
And, do you want them in your uniform when they retire?
The thing is either you lock up Pujols for ever or the last 2 years of his playing career will be withTampa Bay and Pittsburgh.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Mar 22, 2010 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
This may be a real risk
but I’m going to take it:
I predict that Albert Pujols will never play for the Pittsburgh Pirates. There. I said it.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Mar 22, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Michael Jordan couldn't be reached for comment.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
i'm so behind in basketball (i thought the sonics were still in seattle)
but what do you mean?
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
If a team played defense now
the way the Knicks and Pistons (among others) did when Jordan was in his prime, they would be kicked out of the league.
Handchecking rules outlawed, "hard fouls" are flagrants
Prime Jordan would score 40 a game now.
Not afraid to nitpick
I blame the European players
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Mar 22, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I blame $$$
Flopping is all on the Euros though and the worst part of those douches flopping is that it’s made refs hold on to their whistle for normal fouls that someone doesn’t try to sell. The NBA is lucky Dwight Howard is an overly happy guy because if he wasn’t, he’d snap and beat a referee to death on the floor for the pussy calls that go against him.
Not afraid to nitpick
Actually, I shouldn't just confine it to Europeans
Manu Ginobili is one of the worst. I’d say the players who come from a country where soccer is their number one sport are the chief culprits.
Also, re: the refs choking on their whistles, I was watching Hawks-Spurs last night, and Tim Duncan was blatantly fouled and nothing was called. In real time I couldn’t tell, so I thought he was just being a crybaby like usual, but when they showed the replay, Marvin Williams (I’m pretty sure) grabbed his arm on the shot, and even he thought it was a foul (based on his body language after). It was…interesting (and went for the Hawks! Yes!)
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Mar 22, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Ginobili isn't european?
blame it on the non-northern americans and non-asians.
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
He's Argentenian (an Argentine?)
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Mar 22, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
you don't count....
you’re just a foreigner who won’t tell anyone where you’re from.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
do you play in the NBA?
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
your gaydar must be incredible
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
you're from romania?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
i didnt notice any slurs aimed at non north americans in the post
so this will probably reduce any reaction to it.
You're not Russian, either.
Or so you claimed the other day. Which makes me think you’re Ukrainian.
STAB STAB STAB
cat fight!
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
You've shown your hand
Obviously you are from Madagascar
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Mar 22, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm going with
Swedish
(for optical cat fight reasons)
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
just google image
Swedish women, and you’ll know why Regalia went there.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Also, Dave Concepcion.
brazilian would be fine
likely better fighting skills too.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
with this, i hope the "guess my national origin" game is over.
if d-dee doesn’t want to say – if she did, she would have, guys – she doesn’t have to, and i hope you’ll respect that.
"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."
me three
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
fez?
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
This is a ridiculous argument
I think Jordan would actually have a tougher time scoring now than he did back then, especially pre-triangle Jordan who didn’t have a post up game. The zone defenses make it really difficult to attack the basket with any regularity since you can just put two defenders on one side of the floor without having them guarding anyone as long as they aren’t in the lane.
Also, the league has evolved defensively to the point where you can isolate scorers who have trouble shooting from long range and don’t have a post game. Jordan had a nice mid-range game, but he’d have to be able to stretch you out to the three point line in today’s game, like all the great scorers in the game right now can do. Kobe, ‘Melo, LeBron, Durant, Wade can all extend out to the three and hit it at better than 36%. You never had to cover MJ out there, but the defensive rules at the time maintained that you had to actually “guard” him — you wouldn’t have to do that now. I don’t think that ‘87 MJ averages 37 a game in today’s league. I do think that ’91 – ’93 MJ would have lead the league in scoring and that ’96 – ’98 MJ would have led the league in scoring as well. The guy who would really benefit from the new rules in his prime would have been someone like Karl Malone or Bernard King because they were impossible to defend on their own or off the pick and roll.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
So you're saying Jordan in his prime would lead the league in scoring...
Which is pretty much what joker and myself were implying.
i'd go with benoit benjamin
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Seriously
This is what pisses me off — that isn’t at all what he said, actually.
He said he’d average 40 a game. He would NOT average 40 a game in today’s environment with a similar team that he had in the 80’s, when the league had much higher scoring than it does now. Kobe is a better offensive player at this point than Michael Jordan ever thought about being. He can beat you in every conceivable way, yet in his prime he only average 35 a game. That’s about the peak that you can average in today’s game. You’re also not factoring in how much MJ lived at the foul line in his glory days. He took 10 to 12 FT attempts every game, and a lot of that had to do with the rough play at the time. Back off his FT attempts to 7 or 8 a game and he’s going to struggle to average even the 37 that he did in ’87.
Would he lead the league in scoring? Probably, because of his force of will to do so. It has nothing to do with the rules. He would have averaged 55 a game in 1965 due to the fact that he would have taken 20 more shots a game and would have been the best athlete in the league at the time, but he didn’t PLAY in 1965, did he?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
i notice you failed to address benoit benjamin
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Mar 22, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Who's the only person who could keep Michael Jordan under 20 points a game?
Dean Smith
/rimshot
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Mar 22, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually
I would bet that Scottie Pippen would have frustrated the holy hell out of Jordan had Scottie played for the Knicks or Pistons. Pippen was the best defender of his era and probably a top 2 or 3 defender all time.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I just enjoy watching you argue against yourself.
You say something is “ridiculous” then agree with the basic premise.
by Mister Eff on Mar 22, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I didn't agree with the premise
The premise was that he would average 40 PPG.
There’s no “basic premise” involved. I do not think he would average 40 PPG and I put my reasons out there as to why I think that way.
I’ve yet to see a good argument as to why he would, just a couple of jerks giving me shit for having a position on the subject.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
jerks is a little strong
but if i am included, i prefer to be called a prick
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
that's why I hope you never become a front page poster with mod powers
there’s no need for the jerks comment.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Mar 22, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, there is
If you’re being a JERK, then you deserve to be called a JERK.
If you don’t want to be called a JERK then don’t be one. Period.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?