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Viva El WAR (Part 1: Hitters)

Why do we use WAR?

No, I'm not going to do that stupid "What is WAR good for?!" crap and link to that goddamn video.  WAR is good for evaluating players and it has nothing to do with stupid hippies.  Sheesh.  

Being serious now, WAR is a total value stat for a player.  It attempts to measure how many wins a given player adds to a league average team above a "replacement level player".  Wins, in this metric, are simply a constant division of runs (10 runs = 1 win, 20 runs = 2 wins, etc.) and don't preference certain runs over another.  Given that WAR is a context neutral metric (runs in the 9th inning are just as valuable as runs in the 1st inning) that is fitting.  The "replacement level" part of WAR, is simply the theoretical value of a typical player that you could find on the waiver wire or pull from your minor league system (think Joe Thurston).  More on replacement level later.  

WAR is simply the best stat you can use because it takes into account most quantifiable aspects of hitting/pitching, and converts that into the unit we all care about, wins.  It allows us to compare players like Brendan Ryan with Adam Dunn, and solely look at players based on their value.  

Star-divide

Construction

WAR is actually a pretty simple stat to calculate if you have access to the right inputs.  The construction of WAR basically goes like this:

offense + defense + position + replacement level

I'll explain each of those things in detail.

Offense

My definition of offense includes everything that players do to help there team score runs.  There are many aspects of offense of course, with the most important being hitting (or walking, you get the point).  Hitting can be measured however you want really.  The most common way to measure hitting is by using Linear Weights (don't ask me why that name was chosen), which, in it's simplicity, measures how many runs a player would add to an average team in a context neutral setting.  

For example, a single, on average, leads to about .77 runs.  However, that's simply the average number.  A single with nobody on is far less valuable than a single with the bases loaded, and a single in front of a pitcher is far less valuable than a single in front of Albert Pujols.  Given that hitters have absolutely no control of who is on base or waiting on deck when they hit their singles, we just assign the league average run value to them.  You do that for each thing that a player does, and add it all together.  That gives you that player's Linear Weights.

Another way to look at hitting value would be to include context.  One such way to do that is to look at WPA (win probability added) which measures the change in win expectancy after a given event.  For example, if Rasmus is up in the bottom of the 10th in a tie game with nobody on and nobody out, the Cardinals are expected to have roughly a 63% chance of winning the game.  If Rasmus then hit's a walkoff bomb, the Cardinals have a 100% chance of winning the game.  Rasmus' WPA for that play is then 37% of a win, or .37 wins.  You do that for every play for every player and sum the results for each player, and that gives you each players' cumulative WPA.  

The biggest problem with WPA, in terms of valuing players, is that it gives full credit to a players context around him, and that's almost completely out of his control.  Whether or not you use WPA or Linear Weights or some other metric to measure offense, is a matter of your preference.  I will say that Linear Weights is the most predictive and all encompassing.  Linear Weights can be found on FanGraphs in a rate form as wOBA (which is simply linear weights over outs per plate appearances scaled to OBP).  Unadjusted Linear Weights in the counting stat from can be found on FanGraphs as wRAA in the Advanced section.

The next part of offense is the adjustments you choose to make.  Theoretically, one could make adjustments based on quality of pitchers, quality of ballpark, quality of opposing defense, etc.  While none of the adjustments are going to be perfect, they are necessary to try to put everyone on an even playing field.  I won't go into the technical details of adjustments, however, the point is that they are *not* perfect and are simply an approximation of how a players stats would change given average circumstances.  There are also a lot of ways to handle them.  They are also generally a net gain in understanding the value of a player - you should use them whenever you have the ability to.

The next step towards measuring offense is some form of baserunning metric.  Linear Weights generally includes stolen bases and caught stealings, however, you might also want to add some measure of taking extra bases or what have you.  Baseball Prospectus has a great stat called EqBRR, which attempts to measure such things.  If you feel that baseunning should be a part of WAR, then EqBRR would be a great place to start.

As I've said, offense can be whatever you want it to be.  However, it should be expressed in runs (or wins) above average and have some sort of park adjustments at the very least.     

Defense

While offense is how a player helps his team score, defense is many runs a player helps his team save.  Again, the values should be compared to runs above average.  

Defense is a little more tricky to measure than offense because we don't have those nice little bins (singles, doubles, triples, homers, walks, etc.) that are unambiguously defined.  Defensive valuation requires a lot of perception.  There are quite a few metrics for defense that I can think of and they all attempt to measure how many runs a player would help his team save more or less than an average defender at that position.  To name a few... UZR, PMR, +/-, Range, BZM, F**K, FRAA and others.

Most of these break up each batted ball into a certain bin based on it's estimated velocity, location vector and other things.  It then estimates the league average out percentage of each batted ball in each of those bins and compares that to what the fielder actually did, then converts the difference to runs.  So say that Colby Rasmus has caught 10 balls in 15 chances in bin 7 in 09 (shallow line drive, right center, etc. - numbers pulled out of ass).  The league average rate is 7 out of 15, so Rasmus is +3.  3 plays is equivalent to about 2.4 runs.  You do that for all bins, and sum the results and that gives you Rasmus' somethingZR.

What must stressed about these stats is that they are not an accurate representation of how valuable a defender actually was.  They are simply an estimate, and can be prone to somewhat large discrepancies based solely on the source of the batted ball data or the differences in methodology.  A great example of that is Andruw Jones, who, according to UZR, is either the best defender in the history of the game or about average depending on whether BIS or STATS provides the batted ball data.  

The fact that defensive metrics have a lot of error in them allows room for subjective opinions to have value.  If UZR says Pujols was an average defender last year, but most every scout and fan thinks he was excellent, it's likely he was better than UZR gives him credit for.  

Another example is Franklin Guttierez last year, who was some +27 runs according to UZR.  That's so ridiculously good that there is probably some error in that measurement, and for whatever reason UZR overrated him last year.  It's more likely that he was really a +15 or +20 defender than +20.  

Defense can be tricky, but I'd suggest that some combination of defensive stats, scouting information and regression to the mean could give you a pretty solid estimate of a players defensive value in a given year.  

Position

The positional adjustments are a very big part of measuring a player's value, and one that's unfortunately disregarded sometimes.  A player who can be an average defender at shortstop is much more valuable than a player who can be an average defender at first base, simply because the former is much, much harder to find.  Therefore, we use positional adjustments to try to put them on the same playing field. 

Positional adjustments can be calculated a number of ways.  A nice easy way to do so is to use an offensive baseline.  Simply look at the 10 year average or something of all positions, find the value of the average line at each position in terms of runs or wins (this would be best using Linear Weights, but you could swing it with WPA if you want), and use that as your positional adjustment.  For example, say that from 1995-2005, the average shortstop was -7 runs below average per 600 plate appearances and the average first baseman was +10 runs above average per 600 plate appearances (numbers pulled out of ass).  You would add a prorated +7 runs to the offensive value of each shortstop, and a prorated -10 runs to the offensive value of each first baseman.  

Another, and probably better, way to handle positional adjustments is to use defensive value.  This better captures the fact that players are put at a certain position for their defensive ability and not their offensive ability; however, it is also harder to measure.  There is a tradeoff.  One way to look at defensive positional adjustments is by looking at how the average player's UZR or whatever changes if they change positions. This is actually a pretty solid method; however, it most likely contains some measurement error (although not a whole lot given the sample size) and some selection bias.  The selection bias is key, as players will usually only switch positions for specific reasons that could systematically bias the results of the change in defensive value.  Furthermore, it's harder to measure catcher value with defensive metrics.

For those reasons, it seems best to combine offensive positional adjustments with defensive ones, as well as some common sense.  A good article on positional adjustments can be found here:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/historical-position-adjustments/ 

Replacement level

Replacement level is simply the value of the player you'd expect a given player to replace.  So say you are the Cardinals and Troy Glaus, David Freese and Joe Mather all go down for the season.  You bring up your very own 29 year old rookie to play 3rd everday.  Surprise, surprise, he sucks.  According to FanGraph's estimates, he was -9.8 runs below average with the bat,  -.4 runs below average with the glove and 1.6 runs above average due to his positional value, all in 307 plate appearances.  That comes out to -8.6 runs below average, and -16.8 runs per 600 plate appearances.  If you do that calculation for all "replacement players", you get the expected value of a replacement level player.  

So say you find that the average replacement level player is -20 runs below average per 600 plate appearances.  You add a prorated to plate appearances +20 runs to each player to get his value above replacement.  So a replacement level player is exactly 0 runs.  

Like with positional adjustments, the replacement level adjustments are simply estimates and obviously vary by team and league.  However, the concept is solid.  Here are some more good articles on the matter:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/blog_article/replacement-level-again/

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/replacement-level-article/

Runs to wins

Since all of the units in the previously describe parts of WAR are in runs, we need to convert them to wins to get a better estimate of each players true value.  The way to do this is by simply looking at how many runs generally equals a win. 

On average, 10 runs = roughly 1 win.  In other words, if you were to look at how many more wins each team got as a function of their run differential, it would average out to WAR = Runs*10.  Of course this isn't always the case.  For a team that, say, never gets out, 10 extra runs would be pretty meaningless to their win totals.  For a team that never scores any runs, 10 runs would be huge.  However, since hitters can't control their own run environment, we only consider the average situation in WAR.

For pitchers, it's a little different as they can control their own run environments.  We'll get into that some other time.

Implementations of WAR

So we have this awesome concept of an uber-stat that takes into account nearly every single aspect of playing in a simple and functional way.  Great, now we need someone to calculate this for all players by season.  As you can imagine, this becomes a big chore.  The values of each of the elements of value change over time, and become hard to calculate in themselves.  Furthermore, there are some legitimate and valid disagreements on how best to calculate WAR.  As far as I know, there are only two sources of publicly available WAR on the interwebz- at FanGraphs and Baseball Projection.  I'll go through each of them showing the differences for hitters, and what they are lacking (and of course, what they do well).

FanGraphs (David Appelman)

FanGraphs uses Linear Weights for offense.  I'm not exactly sure how these are calculated, but they should be pretty robust.  They use no adjustments for league, umpires, or quality of pitchers faced; however, they do park adjust offense using 5 year regressed park factors from Patriot.  Linear Weights are my personal favorite run metric for offense, so I have no problems there.  I would like to see some adjustments made for quality of opposing pitchers at the very least; however, that's very difficult to implement and might not make a huge difference, so I understand why they don't do that.  The park factors used are very solid; however, I think they would be better to at least split them up by batter handedness.  Parks don't affect all hitters uniformly.

FanGraphs also doesn't include baserunning value (aside from SB/CS).  While this isn't a huge flaw, it does have an effect on the value of players.

FanGraphs uses single season UZR for defense, with no extra adjustments (although UZR is already park adjusted).  While this is certainly not a bad way to do it, I would be happier if they could weight other measurements of defense (including the Fans Scouting Report) to try to nuetralize measurement error.  UZR is good, but not good enough to warrant taking it on it's face value.  UZR also doesn't include catcher defense, so guys like Yadier Molina will be severely underrated using FanGraphs WAR.

For positional adjustments, FanGraphs uses Tom Tango's positional adjustments, shown here.  Dave Cameron also has a good explanation of positional adjustments in that article.  I have no problem with those, at least none that I can think to improve upon myself.

For replacement level FanGraphs uses 20 runs per 600 plate appearances.  Other analysts have different values, but those are generally around the same level.  Again, I have no qualms related to the replacement level adjustment at FanGraphs.

So for replacement and positional adjustments, FanGraphs does a pretty good job.  However, for hitting and fielding, they have some noticeable flaws.  That isn't meant to disparage the stat, it's still a very good metric, simply to show that FanGraphs' implementation is not God.  Also, read Dave Cameron's articles on FanGraphs WAR:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/#winvalues

Baseball Projection (Sean Smith)

For offense, BP uses custom team adjusted Linear Weights.  That is, the value of each event is tailored to each team's run environment, so that the total Linear Weights of each player will add up to the total team runs scored.  This is a + for value purposes, however, it also gives the hitter credit for things that are out of his control.  It depends on your preference, if you'd rather use this Linear Weights or the ones on FanGraphs.  BP also takes into account grounded into double play runs, reaching on errors, as well as baserunning.  The baserunning adjustments are just estimates, and in later years are really just guesses; however, they should be fine to use.  I'm not exactly sure how Sean handles park, league and pitcher adjustments, but I'm pretty sure he includes all three in some way shape or form.  I'll wait for further notice on that.  

For defense, BP uses Total Zone rating and a defensive estimate for catchers based off of wild pitches, stolen bases, etc.  Again, there is the problem of using single season Zone Ratings, but perhaps that is just my own little pet peeve.  UZR is better than Total Zone due to the better quality of batted ball data.  For seasons before 1953, an adjusted range factor is used.

For positional adjustments, Sean calculates them seperately by decade.  You can see how he does that here.

For replacement level adjustments, Sean uses his own values, which I think are generated by using his own CHONE projections.  Again, I'll wait for more conformation.  

Sean describes his system briefly here.

Your own

While FanGraphs and Baseball Projection each have great metrics, none of them are perfect obviously.  I think it would be best, if looking to assess past value, if you individualized the way you calculated each component so that you can get what you are looking for.  I'll go through an example using Pujols in 09.  

Last year, Pujols had 69.7 non adjusted Linear Weights (including SB) in 700 plate appearances per FanGraphs.  If you use Patriot's park factors, linked above, that translates to 72.1 runs above average.  In a perfect world, I would use lefty/righty park adjustments and adjust by quality of pitchers' faced, but those numbers are really harder to come across.  

For baserunning, I'll use EqBRR from Baseball Prospectus.  Pujols was -.62 runs last year when you take out SB runs (because Linear Weights already includes them), so it's really just negligible in that case.

For defense, I like to use a combination of UZR, Total Zone and the fans scouting report.  UZR has Pujols at +1.3 runs last year, Total Zone has Pujols at +12 runs and the fans scouting report has Pujols as the best first baseman in baseball last year.  FSN converted to runs...

Runs = (Rating minus 3.25) * 15)

...has Pujols at +14.5.  If you do this: (.4*UZR + .3+TZ + .3*FSN = my completely subjective weighting system), you get Pujols at +7.27 runs on defense last year.

For the positional adjustment, I'll just use the Tom Tango ones found on FanGraphs, which are -12.5 per 700 plate appearances.  For replacement level adjustments I'll also use the ones on FanGraphs, so 23.3 runs.

You add it all together, and divide by 10 to get WAR.  That gives us 9.0 WAR for Big Dog last year.  It's worth noting that FanGraphs has Pujols at 8.4 WAR and Baseball Projection has him at 9.2 WAR, so there are some differences in the way you calculate results.  

The biggest differences come for catchers or guys with a lot of value from their non stolen base baserunning.  For instance, FanGraphs has CHONE Figgins at 6.1 WAR and Baseball Projection has him at 6.9 WAR. 

So what?

I hope to have stressed that A) WAR is the best stat for evaluating players, and B) It is very complicated and there is no one set of ways to calculate it.  Therefore, while you should use it always when comparing players and contracts, don't assume that WAR = actual WAR.   

If you are walking down the street and someone says, "hey, did you know that Pujols was worth 9.2 WAR last year?", making sure to ask what park factors he used, if he used UZR or Total Zone, and how he calculated Linear Weights.  Translate that into Baseball Blog nerd speak, if someone writes that Ben Zobrist was worth more than Joe Mauer last year, make sure to say that is only FanGraphs estimate of their respective values and you should dig deeper into the numbers to calculate your own WAR.

Links

Here are some more reading on the subject of player valuation:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/how-to-measure-a-players-value-part-3/

http://www.basement-dwellers.com/search/label/player%20value

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/#winvalues

That should last you a couple of months, enjoy.

PS.  Fuck Brad Penny.  Also, I apologize for typos.

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Holy crap

you weren’t kidding when you said this thing was going to be substantial… Just when I think you can’t let us down any more on a Sunday… you go and do something like this and TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF!!!!

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Feb 7, 2010 3:50 AM EST reply actions  

It was very well done

really broke things down to a level idiots like me could grasp. Although I’d really like to see where the eye test fits into all of this…

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Feb 7, 2010 4:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Just making a bad eye test joke

Basically my sentiment the eye test still has some value since it’s my opinion you can make up any stat or view the data in any manner you want to prove your point.

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Feb 7, 2010 4:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Hm... agree that stats can be misleading

But how is the eye any different? Every person has a different definition of “looks good”.

by vivaelpujols on Feb 7, 2010 4:26 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree it's not perfect by any stretch

I just get angry at the people who claim that looking at players only by stats is the only valid way to investigate players. I’m not sure who wrote it on here (for some reason I want to say it was you), but someone wrote about using stats vs. scouting when you have limited resources both. And I feel that captured what I was thinking pretty well that seeing people play the game is still important for unknown commodities.

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Feb 7, 2010 4:32 AM EST up reply actions  

It was me in my last post

I said that the ratio of stats to scouting is always a function of sample size. However, it obviously depends on the quality of your scouting information.

by vivaelpujols on Feb 7, 2010 4:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah my basic premise is

that if scouting didn’t work, it wouldn’t have survived for so long… baseball would have found something better a long time ago. That said I still believe analysis of all the random stats are important. Ok going to slip into a peaceful slumber now…

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Feb 7, 2010 4:42 AM EST up reply actions  

i'm kind of in this camp

not because i question the ability of scouts to get a good read of talent, but simply because i’m not a scout. before i really started diving in to sabermetrics, i thought rick ankiel was an elite defender in CF. after seeing the numbers, vehemently refuting them and the validity of UZR, i can kind of see better why he is really pretty average at best, but i still don’t trust my eyes for valuating defense

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Feb 7, 2010 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, I struggle with defense

the objective stats have drummed one thing home that I hadn’t realised before: how important range is. Basically, before I knew anything about UZR or other defensive metrics, I’d have rated defenders based on arm strength, speed and athleticism, and handling.

I think it’s pretty clear now that overall range (reading/judging the ball + speed) is far more important than all the other factors put together, so now I try to “modify” my eye-test/gut-reaction judgements based on that piece of knowledge.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Feb 8, 2010 11:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Actually

(and I know I am getting mired in minutiae, when your overall point is a good one. . . but) Ankiel took some awefully funny routes to balls and had a ton of trouble with not accounting for slice on line drives. I vividly remember him over-running a number of line drives, particularly a big one in Boston where he overran a ball and fell flat on his ass trying to adjust. It’s just that, when a guy makes two of the most impressive throws in recent memory in the same game, you tend to forget about a bad route he took the day before.

by Cardaholic on Feb 8, 2010 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I can get 70 miles to the gallon on this hog

You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?

by jd is legend on Feb 7, 2010 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm going to save this for later,

I’m too tired to get into this right now.

I am the Batman .
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by CodyG on Feb 7, 2010 4:41 AM EST reply actions  

it seems long so I guess you put alot of work into it, so good job.

again I’m not reading it until later.

I am the Batman .
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by CodyG on Feb 7, 2010 4:42 AM EST up reply actions  

yup me too.

still drunk from last night. Roller Girls had me up til 4am….work at 7am….good news is puppybowl is on today!!

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Feb 7, 2010 10:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Most Excellent

I hope you will do something on pitchers as well.

Is it appropriate to use defense metrics when there appears to be a lot of concern as to whether they are accurate?

Just win

by The Duke on Feb 7, 2010 7:47 AM EST reply actions  

i echo duke

first and foremost, excellent job. and then, as he intimates, when so much of a certain player’s value is tied to defense, and defense seems most difficult to accurately quantify, could we be grossly over- or underestimating a player’s worth? and is there not some context?

ok. like with boog. isn’t his ability to pick grounders much more valuable to a dunc-led staff than likely any other? so if he were on a fly-ball team, wouldn’t his value be diminished, common-sensically? but would this show in his defensive metrics, and thus in his WAR valuation?

(if this makes no sense, i apologize)

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Feb 7, 2010 9:00 AM EST up reply actions  

at the very least

if he getting more opportunities to make more plays, we should be able to get a better read of his performance in a smaller sample, no?

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Feb 7, 2010 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, defensive metrics are just one pecie of the puzzle

If a scout says that Pujols has played at +20 defense, one defensive metric says he has played at +5 defense and the other defensive metric says he has played at -5 defense, each of them probably has a bit of truth to them. It’s better to average them out than preference one over the other.

by vivaelpujols on Feb 7, 2010 11:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Awesome write-up

I have to agree with the sentiment " It was very well done – really broke things down to a level idiots like me could grasp." (thanks dt16 for the well put line)

You’ve outdone yourself this time, VEP. Great job.

One question for you: Is your example at the end with El Hombre the way that you would choose to calculate WAR? If not, what is your preferred method?

Secondly, I hope that your last line gets blown out of the water this year and makes you eat those words, unless you know the man personally or something and it is completely non-baseball related.

Thirdly, the P-D has up an article (and I didn’t sift through yesterday’s comments, so I hope this is not old, about McClellan having a real shot at becoming a starter for this coming year and the Cardinals probably not making any moves on the SP front until well into spring training. McClellan, Garcia, Boggs, Hawksworth, and Hill will be the ones duking it out.

by stlfan on Feb 7, 2010 8:53 AM EST reply actions  

if i may be presumptuous

the penny line refers to the fact that vep has been getting a lot of shit for the delayed publication of the tantalizing penny pitch f/x – it’s become almost a meme. i don’t mean to speak for vep, but i do not believe it is anything personal in regards to brad.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Feb 7, 2010 9:06 AM EST up reply actions  

As long as I was the one not to bring up the subject

I was doing my own Brad Penny pitch/fx analysis. But it is leaving me with more questions than answers.

Brad Penny last year had two separate release points last year. One from

4/11 to 5/20

and the other from

5/25 to 8/21

From 5/25 on Brad Penny has 2 release points from the rest of the season on. He changes his release points a lot. Some even in mid game which to me seems weird for a pitcher.

But as soon as he leaves Boston and pitches in San Fran on 9/2 to 9/30 he seems to stick to the same release point. The same one he had at the beginning of the season.

Not exactly sure what it means but thought it was interesting enough to bring up

by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 7, 2010 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

very interesting that he was having success at the end of the year

with the same release point he was using at the beginning of the year, because (league and park factors aside) he was getting flat out shelled at the beginning of the year to the tune of a .575 slugging against. I repeat, shelled. It’ll be interesting to finally get a pitchf/x on him and see if there were any noticeable differences.

by mattyp on Feb 7, 2010 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

in boston

obviously he was tipping his pitches.

otherwise, i’m curious about his velocity throughout the year – if maybe he wasn’t stronger at the end? and also his pitch selection – did it change dramatically in any way?

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Feb 7, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

funnily enough, MY pitch f/x charts are identical.

Maybe I really can be a big league pitcher.

"It doesn't have to be terribly prolific! Just so that it isn't childish and silly." She reflected. "I prefer stories about squalor." J.D.S.

by tom s. on Feb 7, 2010 2:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

report day is looming, tom

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Feb 7, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn't put so much stock in Pitch f/x release points

At least game to game. That data isn’t park correct, IIRC, and that can have a big effect on release points especially as they are the furthest thing away from the cameras.

by vivaelpujols on Feb 7, 2010 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

And the scout just shrugged, and said,

“No data found.”

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Feb 8, 2010 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

My preferred way of WAR would be this

Offense
Straight Linear Weights, adjusted for park using lefty-righty park factors, and adjusted for quality of pitchers faced using end of season Marcel’s projections. Also, add EqBRR

Defense
UZR*.4 + TZ*.2 + Fans*.2 + 0*.1. The 0 is for regression to the mean. This isn’t for projecting, but given the error bars in measuring defense, if a player has a +20 UZR, it’s likely that he didn’t actually play that well, so we regress a little bit. Ditto for the Adam Dunn’s of the world.

For catcher defense, use Rally’s metric.

Positional
Just using the FanGraphs values.

Replacement
FanGraphs

by vivaelpujols on Feb 7, 2010 8:39 PM EST up reply actions  

The defensive weights that is.

They look arbitrary to me (read: outside bias).

Think; It's not illegal yet.

by azruavatar on Feb 7, 2010 11:02 PM EST up reply actions  

No, they are just arbitrary and subject to change on a whim

We don’t yet have a way to test defensive metrics. Basically, you’d just combine everyone out there that uses batted ball data (UZR, +/-, PMR, TZ, BZM) and some measure of scouting (Fans) as well as some regression to the mean component, and hope to neutralize the batted ball classification errors and methodological quirks. If you want to weight them all equally, that’s great and fair, but I think it’s pretty clear that UZR and +/- are better than Total Zone, given the difference in quality of batted ball data, and probably better than PMR and BZM as well. When Colin’s GameDay metric for Bpro becomes available, I’d weight that as highly as UZR.

by vivaelpujols on Feb 7, 2010 11:08 PM EST up reply actions  

i'd rather

just weight UZR and +/- (if i had access to it) equally and just disregard all the precursors to UZR and the lesser stats in general

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Feb 8, 2010 12:10 AM EST up reply actions  

The thing is that Total Zone and BZM (Peter Jensen's metric) use different data sources than UZR and +/-

UZR and +/- use BIS data, Total Zone uses Retrosheet and BZM uses GameDay. With all of the biases and misclassifications of batted balls, it’s better to use as many different sources as possible, even if the methodologies of the other metrics aren’t as good.

by vivaelpujols on Feb 8, 2010 12:13 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Here's my problem.
With all of the biases and misclassifications of batted balls, it’s better to use as many different sources as possible, even if the methodologies of the other metrics aren’t as good.

There’s zero evidence that this statement is true. I understand why you might think that and, on an intuitive level, I might even agree. If there’s one thing I’ve learned though, it’s how often my “gut” is wrong. Introducing multiple bad inputs doesn’t equate to getting a better single output. Unless there’s some evidence that they complement each other or mitigate individual biases in some way, for all you know it could be stacking the same bad bias on top of one another.

Think; It's not illegal yet.

by azruavatar on Feb 8, 2010 8:09 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

agreed

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Feb 8, 2010 11:48 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah

i didn’t really know how to state it, but this is pretty much my feelings

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Feb 8, 2010 7:54 PM EST up reply actions  

OT: 2006 WS Game 1

on MLB Network at 2:30 pm tomorrow. Game 2 is on Tuesday, but I figure we won’t want to watch that.

Check out my sports blog!
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
SIGN FELIPE LOPEZ & JOHN SMOLTZ!

by zoomzoomj88 on Feb 7, 2010 9:30 AM EST reply actions  

rookie

of course that will be the most watched game. you see, these series are mini-dramas, so you can’t miss game 2.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Feb 7, 2010 9:36 AM EST up reply actions  

All these fancy stats

I think batting average and wins are more valuable than all this crap. That stat is hell to understand.

by Mcgeesabeast on Feb 7, 2010 9:55 AM EST reply actions  

not sure i'd go that far, but

i wonder what the real difference is between a 5 and 6 war player?
if f. guitierrez was not a 27,but a 20, why is some player who is +5, not a -2?

always puzzling to me how one actually uses all these numerical values to compare players if we don’t have a way to estimate error?

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Feb 7, 2010 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

We can guess at error

This isn’t a freaking physics experiment.

by vivaelpujols on Feb 7, 2010 11:23 AM EST up reply actions  

ok

so how do you do that?

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Feb 7, 2010 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know

We know that offense, positional adjustments and replacement level are going to be pretty accurate. We can guess at how much our defensive estimates are off.

I’m not sure why it’s necessary to know the standard error on these metrics. By definition, the mean value is most likely.

by vivaelpujols on Feb 7, 2010 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

just curious

these or similar metrics must come in to play when some gm is deciding if a player is worth 5, 6, ..10…M$

re likelihood of outcomes, i.e.,10+/- 5 is pretty different than 10+/- 1 in terms how probable the mean is. its hard to imagine teams don’t have some way of figuring range of worth for any player they are interested in.

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Feb 7, 2010 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

i do think teams have their own metrics

red sox being case in point.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Feb 7, 2010 11:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I doubt the teams metrics are any better than UZR

There is only so much you can do with the current data.

by vivaelpujols on Feb 8, 2010 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

for that matter, UZR WAS a proprietary team metric that MGL made and then released after ending his employment advising the team.

"It doesn't have to be terribly prolific! Just so that it isn't childish and silly." She reflected. "I prefer stories about squalor." J.D.S.

by tom s. on Feb 8, 2010 2:25 AM EST up reply actions  

That's interesting

Anybody know which team it was? I guess that might be classified info or something.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Feb 8, 2010 9:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Wasn't he employed by the Cardinals at one point?

that would be interesting…

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Feb 8, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

pretty cool

i’ll have to go back to that one when it’s not super bowl sunday here in norleans – dude lists every single pitcher.

just skimmed cards and cubs real quick. no carp that year, which gave me kinda a sick feeling in the gut, and rich hill sorta stood out on the cubs list.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Feb 7, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I have seen that thank you

Mike Fast is my go to guy for help dealing with Pitch f/x related stuff. You should also check out his article at THT on pitch times.

by vivaelpujols on Feb 7, 2010 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

That was great!

This kind of thing is a great use of our off season time rather than day dreaming about free agents we’ll never sign or trades that won’t happen. I like all of the caveats that the stat is not perfect but probably the best we can do right now. Analysis like this brings those of us who have a passing acquaintance with Sabermetrics but need some refresher courses back into the discussion.
One complaint. Whaddya mean “stupid” hippies?

by easy on Feb 7, 2010 10:00 AM EST reply actions  

Like everybody else...

there are “smart” hippies and “stupid” hippies… The “smart” ones achieved an “altered state of consciousness” without using external sources (organic or not!)… ;-)

(Me? I used Budweiser… why do you ask?)

Now I ain’t makin’ no excuses for the many things I uses
Just to sweeten my relationships and brighten up my day
But when my earthly race is over and I’m ready for the clover
And they ask me how my life has been I guess I’ll have to say

I was stoned and I missed it
I was stoned and I missed it
I was stoned and it rolled right by
I was stoned and I missed it
I was stoned and I missed it
I was stoned oh me oh my

— Shel Silverstein

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Feb 7, 2010 10:42 AM EST up reply actions  

stupid hippies is a term used my pretentious a-holes

and jerks! VEP falls into the second category, but we still love like him.

Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Feb 7, 2010 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not buying it....

Batting average and errors are all you need to know.

by Evilfrog on Feb 7, 2010 11:26 AM EST reply actions  

Math dork.

All that really matters is how much dirt is on their uniform by the end of the game. Everyone knows that.

I never would slip you Mickey! It is merely rhinoceros horn. This makes the champagna bubble.

by The Continental on Feb 7, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions  

get with the program

even grit is now quantified.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Feb 7, 2010 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I basically grade people on how often they slide into first base

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Feb 7, 2010 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Royals review actually created a GRIT statistic

LINK
someone who is not me needs to do this for the Cardinals players and fanpost it

by mattyp on Feb 7, 2010 1:48 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

That is good stuff right there...

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Feb 7, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

yes it is

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Feb 7, 2010 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

that was so fast

time must be circular in this hologram we live in (this concept would make a catchy country-western tune)

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Feb 7, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I love this so much

That I’m rec’ing this post AND the fanpost.

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Feb 7, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

That's way too tangible for me.

I go for good locker room presence.

by easy on Feb 7, 2010 7:23 PM EST up reply actions  

you are easy

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Feb 7, 2010 8:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks VEP!

I have to ditto all the praise for a great breakdown for stat dummies. I read VEB everyday, but practically never post. Yet I felt compelled to say that this type of post is much appreciated. I must echo the requests for a similar explanation on pitchers, and I would be interested to see your thoughts on how best to tackle catchers. Thanks for all of your hard work.

by The Misery Boys on Feb 7, 2010 11:33 AM EST reply actions  

Good stuff. Stat Corner has a form of WAR, as well

They use tRA for the pitchers and hWAR (hitting only) for position players.

by Scottwood on Feb 7, 2010 12:05 PM EST reply actions  

thanks VEP

great job explaining the metric. Not to get too high-school-science-lesson, but is significant figures a concern with these stats? Is there a good reason to think that these numbers are accurate enough to be useful to the tenth of a win?
Or should we really only be thinking of this metric as a very blunt comparison tool?

by mikey_mac on Feb 7, 2010 12:28 PM EST reply actions  

for example, on FG

i’ll often see histrionics while comparing a 2.0 WAR player versus a 2.3 WAR player, or something to that effect. Based on how the metric is determined, it seems quite possible that the 2.0 player is actually a 2.3 and vice versa (with more accurate batted ball data, for example).

by mikey_mac on Feb 7, 2010 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

No a 2.0 WAR players is not definititely worse than a 2.3 WAR player

However, it’s more likely that a 2.3 WAR player is better. These are just estimates, remember.

by vivaelpujols on Feb 7, 2010 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks VEP

great write-up, can’t wait for the next installment. Just reading this almost makes the “advanced knowledge of sabermetrics” on my resume not a blatant lie. Almost.

Community query: Is it too early to start drinking?

by mattyp on Feb 7, 2010 12:35 PM EST reply actions  

ok, what's the catch?

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Feb 7, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

good write up

definitely expanded my understanding. thanks

also isn’t statcorner a publicly available, differently calculated source of WAR. at least for pitchers i know they use tRA for WAR, so that’s where i like to go for my pitcher WAR (even if i’m usually too lazy to open a new page when already on FG). i don’t know how they calculate offensive WAR, though, but i’m pretty satisfied with the inputs that FG use

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Feb 7, 2010 12:42 PM EST reply actions  

i propose

a superbowl fanpost

i’d really prefer for this post to not end up filled with 75% comments about a live football game

just my input.

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Feb 7, 2010 12:46 PM EST reply actions  

well done, vep

I enjoyed your write-up (even if my eyes were glazing over about halfway through) – seriously, it gave me a much better idea of what WAR is all about

by CRay on Feb 7, 2010 12:50 PM EST reply actions  

really outstanding

Hate to echo everyone, but that was a fantastic explanation of WAR. Really improved my understanding

by RedbirdinKC on Feb 7, 2010 12:59 PM EST reply actions  

pretty interesting write up

on kmac as a started over at PaH9

http://playahardnine.wordpress.com/2010/02/06/kyle-mcclellan-as-a-starter/

he makes a pretty compelling case for giving kmac a legit shot at the starting rotation. gotta say, with the numbers all laid out like that, it’s a proposition that’s hard not to like given the alternatives. and if he does fade late in the season, you can always swap him with garcia (who i assume would be in the bullpen by that time in the year)

i will look forward to seeing what he has as a starter come ST

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Feb 7, 2010 1:20 PM EST reply actions  

great post.

I had always wondered what WAR was, and I have to say it’s a pretty badass stat.

Great Oden's Raven I love Mike "The Predator" Dixon!

by pinkelposse on Feb 7, 2010 1:41 PM EST reply actions  

Nice writeup.

Two things I think could be expanded:

1. WPA really sucks. If Chris Carpenter pitches eight scoreless, fascist innings, K’s 15 guys and leaves with a 10 run lead, his WPA can be eclipsed by a pinch hitter who comes in and gets a single hit and the winning RBI against Kip Wells.

2. You touched on this, but IMO the best part of WAR is that you can compare players at different positions with wildly different skillsets in a similar currency. The argument that Brendan Ryan is better than Adam Dunn doesn’t devolve into “Zomg he hits teh dingerz” vs “zOMG his defense R teh awesome”

"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"

"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."

by hazel on Feb 7, 2010 1:54 PM EST reply actions  

Great write up, but I could have done without the couple of f-bombs.

I know cursing is allowed on this blog, but I just didn’t think either was necessary nor contextually funny.

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Feb 7, 2010 3:05 PM EST reply actions  

whoa sorry, hah

NOT watch, definitely not watch

by mattyp on Feb 7, 2010 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

so now ya tell me!

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Feb 7, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

and I thought it was quite funny

Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Feb 7, 2010 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Anyone know where you can find

Data on pitchers about bases being stolen on them. I know Brad Penny was particularly bad last year with bases getting stolen against him. But I can’t find any numbers about the stat though

by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 7, 2010 3:08 PM EST reply actions  

According to

BR, 28 against and only 3 caught.
Is that what you’re after?

* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Feb 7, 2010 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah thanks

I would love to find a leader board of caught stealing. But BR is probably the most frustrating site I could think of in that regard. So much great stats and so horribly designed. They make it near impossible to use their site effectively.

by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 7, 2010 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah how can you have all that data

And not write a script to sort it.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Feb 7, 2010 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

if you subscribe

you can get extra search options that include sorting and getting league leaders for pretty much everything

but the setup of the site just sucks too much for me to want to subscribe. if FG got splits and ERA+, i’d probably never us B-R

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Feb 7, 2010 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

not to mention

going back to the 1800s

Я виключаю ти, сука

by TomCat009 on Feb 7, 2010 7:13 PM EST up reply actions  

didn't know about that

then again, it’s also of little importance to me. never liked history and i guess it turns out that baseball history is no different for me

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Feb 7, 2010 7:31 PM EST up reply actions  

He also was caught by Bengie Molina, Jason Varitek, and Victor Martinez...ouch

"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"

"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."

by hazel on Feb 7, 2010 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

penny BR player page

click “more stats”, on penny’s standard pitching
scroll down to “baserunning and situational”
same for all mlb pitchers from 09 (leaderboard), from the standard pitching dropdown choices (baserunning and situational).

catchers are on standard fielding (leaderboard) and player pages (far right column)

by ball in play on Feb 7, 2010 8:59 PM EST up reply actions  

thanks for breaking WAR down into its components

it really helped me understand what all is going into this stat in a easy to understand article, recd! I think it might be interesting to see a study done on a group of players to see how they fare in certain areas of the WAR stat. Also, I echo some of the sentiments about how the defensive portion of WAR can warp the results, and I saw someone mention statcorner’s version of WAR, wondering if there might be some more elucidation between the different types of WAR out there, I think this is one of the more confusing parts in understanding the stat for beginners.

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 7, 2010 3:13 PM EST reply actions  

OT: i don't know about you, but i think that singing

“my way” or “take me home country roads” at a karaoke bar is grounds for justifiable homicide.

"It doesn't have to be terribly prolific! Just so that it isn't childish and silly." She reflected. "I prefer stories about squalor." J.D.S.

by tom s. on Feb 7, 2010 3:20 PM EST reply actions  

except for the sex pistols' version of "my way"

"It doesn't have to be terribly prolific! Just so that it isn't childish and silly." She reflected. "I prefer stories about squalor." J.D.S.

by tom s. on Feb 7, 2010 3:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Exemption

You can sing “Take Me Home Country Roads” if you’re from West Virginia or if you ever lived there

You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?

by jd is legend on Feb 7, 2010 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Great post

and I echo the sentiment of that young Red Sox fan. Though I also feel the same way about his team.

Time for a new sig.

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 7, 2010 3:25 PM EST reply actions  

Does anyone know if the

SB is being streamed anywhere? 500 channels on DTV, and the only station I don’t get is CBS.

Thanks

* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Feb 7, 2010 3:50 PM EST reply actions  

here

http://atdhe.net/11947/watch-super-bowl-xliv-new-orleans-saints-vs-indianapolis-colts

but either it’s not working or the game hasn’t started yet

also

http://channelsurfing.net/watch-nfl.html
http://channelsurfing.net/watch-nfl-2.html

hopefully one of those work for ya

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Feb 7, 2010 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

thanks

* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Feb 7, 2010 5:19 PM EST up reply actions  

This game is atrocious

Indiana is just getting disgraced by Northwestern of all places.

In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his recievers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)

by Taskmaster on Feb 7, 2010 3:57 PM EST reply actions  

Predictions, GO!!

I am the Batman .
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by CodyG on Feb 7, 2010 6:32 PM EST reply actions  

34-20 Colts

You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?

by jd is legend on Feb 7, 2010 6:40 PM EST up reply actions  

not bad, I'll say saints win

not sure by how much though.

I am the Batman .
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by CodyG on Feb 7, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

footieball will be over with today.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Feb 7, 2010 6:50 PM EST up reply actions  

isn't that

the baseball equivalent of the return of the messiah?

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Feb 7, 2010 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

trust is my problem

I’ll skip any mini-screed about how the alphabet soup sabermetrics are dizzying to the mind. Because even if I were to resign my membership in the old curmudgeon ‘seeing is believing’ camp, and possibly relent to use and enjoy a bit the modern xyz mania, I still have a trust problem with how the DATA, the nuts and bolts, the instances, which ultimately cohere into and xyz ‘stat.’ are compiled.
Namely, I keep seeing some fat kid, munching on zagnuts and sipping Dr Nut, with a valve problem, writing stuff down on some graphs and charts as he watches a baseball game somewhere in the higher tier of a media area.
Maybe he sees a line drive to center, whereas I, or someone else, sees a bleeder off the end of the bat. Ground ball in the hole, HE says Ozzie, or even Cal Ripken would have had it, but to MY eyes it was a solid smash all the way that no SS would have gotten to.
Can I be sure, can I prove, that all these little instances result in a crap in, crap out situation? No. But neither can I trust the accuracy or objectivity either.

by the Tewk on Feb 7, 2010 8:13 PM EST reply actions  

your complaint

seems to only be directed at defensive metrics. also, it’s no secret that with regard to defensive metrics, you’re absolutely right. and there’s even more problems with UZR than just that – not accounting for position, adjacent defenders, etc

so you gotta work with a margin of error on the defensive metrics. i usually assume +/- 5 runs for uzr unless were getting into >5000 innings of data territory. and even then, that probably spans a large enough part of a career that the player isn’t the same defender over the entirety of the sample. i’d rather look at 2 seasons worth of data and assume a +/- 5 runs differential

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Feb 7, 2010 8:24 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

this makes me wonder

are all the defensive data out there compiled by fat children?

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 8, 2010 1:04 AM EST up reply actions  

what a way to start the second half

I am the Batman .
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by CodyG on Feb 7, 2010 8:23 PM EST reply actions  

apparently

the saints weren’t playing patty cake this week

not sure how accurate that is. i find it hard to believe they didn’t sneak in at least a little patty cake during hydration breaks or something

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Feb 7, 2010 8:25 PM EST reply actions  

no during hydration breaks it's basically water cooler talk

patty cake is strictly locker room activities.

I am the Batman .
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by CodyG on Feb 7, 2010 8:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Touch Down!!!

I am the Batman .
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by CodyG on Feb 7, 2010 8:27 PM EST reply actions  

that's game

I am the Batman .
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by CodyG on Feb 7, 2010 9:29 PM EST reply actions  

Manning is so competent

but I just can’t like the Colts

Я виключаю ти, сука

by TomCat009 on Feb 7, 2010 9:35 PM EST up reply actions  

WHO DAT!!!!!

:=8D

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Feb 7, 2010 9:59 PM EST reply actions  

Mooo moooo moooo moo mooo mooo moo mooo mo mo mmmoooo

I am the Batman .
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by CodyG on Feb 7, 2010 10:01 PM EST up reply actions  

don't you mean

“MOO DAT!!!!!”?

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Feb 7, 2010 10:01 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

HAHAHAHAHAHAH

Rec

You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?

by jd is legend on Feb 7, 2010 10:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I have a question

Great stuff, VEP. Thanks.

Well, in fact, I’ve tried to explain advanced metrics to fellow Korean fans. (See here, here and here) Maybe translating your post into Korean would be better than my own writing. :)

BTW… I’ve read Patriot’s Park Factor article linked above and got confused by this paragraph:

RUNS OR COMPONENTS?
Most published PFs are run park factors(e.g. they measure the park’s effect on run scoring). This could be for a variety of reasons: it is easier to use one PF then six or seven, the data is more available(especially pre-Retrosheet), or that is the appropriate choice for the question at hand. However, other people publish event specific park factor, such as the Wrigley Field park factor for doubles.

Component park factors are, at least in my opinion, possibly appropriate for performance measures and absolutely appropriate for ability measures. A park may increase run scoring by 10%, but it does not effect all offensive events by the same factor. So, if you want to know what a player would do in a truly neutral context, you need to adjust his singles, doubles, walks, etc. separately.

But if you are measuring value, that is not at all what you want to do. A player’s actual value is almost solely a function of his runs and outs. The park factor allows us to convert the runs and outs to wins, but that is all they should do. In a value method, the park factor’s only purpose is to state the true value of the player’s runs. I am struggling a bit with how to put this in writing clearly, but it is clear in my mind.

I got his point: all we want to know is a player’s value, and a player’s offensive value is determined by his contribution to scoring runs.
However, we get offensive values by Linear Weights, the likes of wOBA. wOBA is calculated straightforwardly from HR, 1B, 2B, 3B, NIBB and RBOE. Then isn’t it more accurate to calculate a player’s offensive value from wOBA, derived from park-adjusted components, rather than just using Run PF?

Cardinals fan from Korea

by FreeRedbird on Feb 7, 2010 10:04 PM EST reply actions  

I'm not really 100% clear myself on park factors

I agree with you that the components should be park adjusted first (or later really, it’s just semantics), but I could be missing something. At any rate, I’m looking for more skill than value, so I’d do lefty – righty park adjustments by component in a perfect world.

by vivaelpujols on Feb 7, 2010 10:59 PM EST up reply actions  

My god, I am going to be depressed for the next week :(

Our defense is just godawful, I don’t care how good the Saints offense is.

In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his recievers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)

by Taskmaster on Feb 7, 2010 10:17 PM EST reply actions  

dunno about that

we have elite defenders at SS, CF, C and 1B with ~average defense at RF, LF and 3B

so, chin up, buddy!

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Feb 7, 2010 10:34 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Also very good point about not caring about the Saints offense.

I don’t see it affecting us at all.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Feb 7, 2010 10:55 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Who would be our CB's

Rasmus and Ryan? I’m confident.

In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his recievers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)

by Taskmaster on Feb 8, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

What does that mean? CB?

Corner Back? What is that?

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Feb 8, 2010 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

You are correct

Sorry for the football acronyms :)

In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his recievers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)

by Taskmaster on Feb 8, 2010 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I still have no idea what that position does.

I really don’t know much about football. I know the quarterback throws the ball and the receivers and sometimes the tight end catches it. Sometimes the QB hands the ball to the running bak and he runs. And I know the large people on both sides hit each other.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Feb 8, 2010 5:02 PM EST up reply actions  

that's a better understanding

than some of the roommates I had in college. CB’s (cornerbacks) try to keep said receivers and tight ends from catching the ball.

Also, funny story (to me)- I had a Polish roommate that went to a Cards game with me one time when I had an extra ticket. By the 3rd inning he was so pissed and bored- he wanted to leave but I kept buying him beer to shut up so I could watch the game. He finally started getting into it a little later when it was a close game in the 8th. He was asking me about rules and the good players and the like. I offered to take him again though and he would not have any part of that.

by WyoCardsFan on Feb 8, 2010 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

i think 3B

will be above average, at least after the first month.

LF is average in my mind, but the numbers seem to say he is better. and i think luddy is better in right than the numbers say, so i guess statistically, he and nuts even out.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Feb 8, 2010 1:53 AM EST up reply actions  

is that a first for you over there

not getting slammed in the comment section?

Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Feb 7, 2010 11:41 PM EST up reply actions  

oh...and about damn time on the splits

Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Feb 7, 2010 11:42 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

I was just moaning about this the other day, in a thread that Dave Appelman was involved with.

So, you’re all welcome…

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Feb 8, 2010 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

hah

nice timing

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Feb 8, 2010 12:14 AM EST up reply actions  

x Playing Time

(offense + defense + position + replacement level) * PlayingTime

by Xeifrank on Feb 8, 2010 12:44 AM EST reply actions  

well,

offense and defense don’t need to be adjusted for PT. you produce/save however many runs you produce/save

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Feb 8, 2010 12:50 AM EST up reply actions  

I’m talking about calculating WAR for an individual player. wOBA is a rate stat. Which produces more WAR (all else being equal) a catcher with a .360 wOBA with 500 projected PA or a catcher with a .370 wOBA with 100 projected PA? There is always a playing time adjustment when calculating WAR.
vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on Feb 8, 2010 1:30 AM EST up reply actions  

wOBA is a rate stat

However, there is no need to use wOBA, just use Linear Weights which already includes playing time. All the offensive stats I talked about (Linear Weights, WPA, EqBRR) are counting stats, so there is no need for the playing time aspect.

by vivaelpujols on Feb 8, 2010 2:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Ok

Just that most people use wOBA and then apply a playing time scale factor. Either way is fine – I prefer the path most taken.
vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on Feb 8, 2010 11:17 AM EST up reply actions  

so, someone on another board

was trying to tell me that football > baseball

my argument was this:

did i win?

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Feb 8, 2010 1:01 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

Yes.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Feb 8, 2010 1:04 AM EST up reply actions  

yeahh!!!

I am the Batman .
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by CodyG on Feb 8, 2010 1:05 AM EST up reply actions  

i made a

rasterbater of this image and posted it on the ceiling of my room. awesome

R.P.O.F.Y.M.

by BVHeck on Feb 8, 2010 1:19 AM EST up reply actions  

funnily enough

googling “wainwright beltran gif” the first result for what i was looking for brought me straight to veb

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Feb 8, 2010 1:23 AM EST up reply actions  

is there a gif of the final out in the WS?

couldn’t find one.

I am the Batman .
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by CodyG on Feb 8, 2010 1:25 AM EST up reply actions  

decidedly so

hope it was an obvious concede to your opponent.

who dat??

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Feb 8, 2010 1:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Not as cool.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Feb 8, 2010 11:10 AM EST up reply actions  

that was a great catch.

also the helmet catch in the patriots-giants game.

a couple of cromartie’s picks in 2008 or 2007 were amazing.

"It doesn't have to be terribly prolific! Just so that it isn't childish and silly." She reflected. "I prefer stories about squalor." J.D.S.

by tom s. on Feb 8, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for this, vep

I’m sure this isn’t anywhere near the first simplified breakdown of what goes into the various versions of WAR, but it is one of the first I’ve been compelled to read and felt like I understood fairly well. I especially like how you explained what linear weights actually are; I had been kinda guessing until now.
On WPA; it seems that stat is very misused. I remember thinking it was kind of stupid for a while, but the more I read about it the more I realized that its best use is as an in-game tool. It’s sort of like an amusement stat, not really great for actual analysis, but very fun to check just how important that 3-run bomb or crucial strikeout is to the outcome of a game.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Feb 8, 2010 9:49 AM EST reply actions  

VEP: "That ought to hold the SOB's"

Heard a singer on the radio late last night
He says he's gonna kick the darkness
'til it bleeds daylight

by TomCat009 on Feb 9, 2010 2:51 AM EST reply actions  

you notice he began with hitters

so as to not have to mention penny.

hey, just kidding, vep.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Feb 9, 2010 2:56 AM EST up reply actions  

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