Viva El WAR (Pitchers, part 1)
Last time, I used my mod powers to look at one of the primary evaluative tools for position players, WAR. This time, we'll focus on pitching.
Construction
The basic formula for pitcher WAR goes something like this:
((((B/A)^(((A+B)/0.92)^0.28)/((B/A)^(((A+B)/0.92)^0.28)+1))-C)*D/9) +
((((B/A)^(((A+B)/0.92)^0.28)/((B/A)^(((A+B)/0.92)^0.28)+1))-0.C)*D/9)*(E-1)
Where A = the pitcher's ERA
And B = the league average ERA (which should be different for starters and relievers)
And C = a replacement level pitcher's neutral winning percentage, which is set around .38 for starters and .46 for relievers
And D = innings pitched
And E = the pitchers leverage index
The formula really isn't that complicated when you break it down into individual steps. That formula is just one that I used for the Cardinals WAR spreadsheet, and it has a lot of repitiion in it. When you break pitcher WAR down into individual steps, it goes like this:
1) Find the average run environment that a pitcher will pitch in. This is equal to the pitcher's run average (RA) plus the league RA for his role (starter or reliever). So for Chris Carpenter last year, he gave up 2.28 runs per 9 compared to a league average of 4.7 R/9 for starters. Add that up, and you get
2) You then figure out the expected winning percentage (W%) of that pitcher. This is done by using PythagenPat, which is a modification of the Pythagorean formula.
Remember, the Pythagorean formula is just a way to figure out the W% of a team given it's runs scored and runs allowed. Pythagenpat is a slight modification of that formula, using a floating exponenent, depending on the run environment of that team, instead of 2. This is done to insure that, for example, teams who play in a really low run environment (like the Padres) get more credit towards expected W% for each marginal run scored than a team like the Yankees. The same concept can be applied towards pitchers in the WAR formula.
I won't go through the blood details, but Chris Carpenter's expected W% would be .77
3) Once you have the pitcher's expected W%, you compare it to that of a replacement level player's and multiply by innings pitched per 9. So Carp's WAR would be 8.3 in 192.2 innings last year.
4) Add leverage. This primarily for relievers who's innings are more important than those of starters. Basically, you figure out the equivalent innings pitched of a reliever (so if a reliever pitches 60 innings, but on average, the are 175% more important than a starters, they count as 105 innings) and do the same thing as above. I won't go into detail about leverage in this post, mainly because I have not yet solidified my views on the matter.
That's the very basic construction of WAR. However, figuring out a pitcher's value isn't as simple as my example with Carp. I made a bunch of assumptions with that example, that aren't necessarily right. As you might have noticed, a pitcher's WAR depends heavily on three things:
1) His run average or estimated run average
2) A replacement level pitcher's run average
3) The way we handle leverage
I'll go through each of those things in detail.
Run estimators
It turns out when Carpenter gave up 2.28 runs per 9 last year, some of that wasn't directly related to his performance. The batters, umpires, fielders and ballpark each had something to do with how many runs Carpenter gave up last year, and attributing all of that to him kinda misses the point of pitcher evaluation. Because so much of what goes into a pitcher's runs allowed is out of his control, there have been many attempts to model the pitcher's performance. I'll go through each of them now.
Before I start, let me say that there are two different goals of run estimators. 1) To credit the pitcher simply with what's under his control, or 2) To credit the pitcher with everything, except for the performance of his defenders.
For a while, those two were thought to be pretty much the same thing. However, I've been doing some research at the THT, that suggests, in my opinion, that pitchers really don't really have that much control over even their defense independent outcomes. When a pitcher strikes out a batter, that is usually a combination of good pitches from the pitcher, bad swings from the hitter, and often favorable calls from the umpire. Every stat that a pitcher has is influenced by luck.
However, even if you concede to my viewpoints on that matter, defense independent pitching stats (DIPS) still can be used for value purposes. When retroactively analyzing a pitcher, you really care more about properly attributing blame. For example, Chris Carpenter gives up a double to left on a 95 MPH fastball down and away. The fact that he allowed the hard contact certainly wasn't his fault, as the batter obviously had to make a very special effort to hit such a pitch, however, you can't blame it on anyone else on the team so, even if it's just bad luck, you attribute that hard contact to the pitcher. The fielder is another story. Once the ball is hit in play, the responsibility shifts from the pitcher to the fielder and so we can debit both of the players accordingly.
There is also an argument for only crediting pitcher's with the things they can control for retrospective value. Why should we give a pitcher credit or debit for things that aren't in his control. Aren't we only trying to measure the pitchers value? Either way, I think it's a matter of preference. I personally would rather isolate the pitcher's performance, rather than just eliminate defensive performance.
Anyway... most of the DIPS estimators just try to eliminate defense rather than isolate pitcher performance, however, some are obviously better than others, so consider the following your quick hit guide to DIPS.
FIP
Aah, FIP. How can one stat that breaks down a pitchers' at bats into 4 possible outcomes, has conveniently rounded coefficients in the formula, and can be figured out on the back of a napkin be so good at estimating future performance and so commonly sited?
For one, it's the fact that it is simple and so easy to understand. As I said above, FIP breaks down each at bat into 4 possible outcomes: strikeout, walk, home run and ball in play. Basically, FIP assigns a value to each of those 4 outcomes based off of Linear Weights. The formula multiplies those values by the number of each of the 4 outcomes that pitcher gives up, translates to on a per 9 basis and sets itself to the league average ERA.
Strengths:
- Simple, easy to remember: (13*HR + 3*(BB+HPB-IBB) - 2*K)/IP + 3.2
- Rooted in logic
- Can be calculated for almost all levels of the minors and historically
Weaknesses:
- Will underrate pitchers who are better than average at allowing less damaging balls in play
- Will underrate pitchers who are better than average at sequencing their events (home run after walk vs. home run before walk, if that makes sense)
- Will somewhat underrate good pitchers and overrate bad pitchers. The coefficients in it are tailored to league average, however, each pitcher has it's own run environment, so the values should change slightly based on how many expected runners are on base.
tRA
tRA is very similar to FIP. However, instead of assuming that all balls in play are created equal, it separates them based on whether they are fly balls, ground balls, line drives or popups. It then multiplies each event (strikeout, walk, home run, and the four batted ball types previously mentioned) by their run value and divides by expected outs. So it's estimated runs per outs multiplied by 27 (cause there are 27 outs in a game). That gets it to match up pretty much with the league average runs per 9.
Strenghts:
- Like FIP, it's intuitive and rooted in logic
- Unlike FIP, it accounts for a pitchers ability to induce "better" balls in play (like ground balls and popups)
- Park adjusted by individual component. This helps to balance out park effects that can effect strikeouts, walks, home runs and even batted balls.
Weaknesses:
- Will underrate pitchers who can better sequence their events
- Not all fly balls are created equal, ditto ground balls and line drives. Some guys just allow weaker contact.
- Cannot be calculated for many levels of the minors and historically
- Will underrate good pitchers and overrate bad pitchers
- Are prone to errors in batted ball classification (one guys fly ball is another guys line drive, and depending on the data source, this can have big implications on the final product)
SIERA
This is BPro's brand new metric. The purpose of it is to compensate for interacting skills in a way that FIP or tRA do not, as they treat each stat independently of each other. For example, guys who allow a lot of ground balls aren't as hurt by walks as others, and SIERA should encapsulate that.
The problems with SIERA are that it hasn't been thoroughly tested yet, and doesn't have a lot of logical backing in the formula. With FIP and tRA, we can understand their strengths and flaws, however, that's simply impossible at this point with SIERA.
SIERA may be the most accurate; however it's too early to tell.
xFIP
This is kind of weird stat. It's basically FIP, except it replaces the home runs with .11*FB. This is done because pitchers have very little control over how many of their fly balls leave the yard, or at the very least, it's hard to identify such a skill based on the numbers.
The problem I have with xFIP is that it can't really be used for retrospective value, because you have to credit those extra home runs to someone. It's a decent stat for identifying luck in small sample size; however, HR/FB and run value of BIP clearly aren't the only things that are influenced by luck. As I've mentioned before, I really hate the idea of a "luck" stat. Every stat contains a bit of luck and a bit of skill, and I would like to see xFIP do some sort of weighting for each event based on the estimated ratio of luck/skill as a function of innings pitched.
Right now it's kind of a hybrid stat, that's useful, but (and should) be a lot better.
tRA*
This is exactly the kind of stat I wish xFIP would be like. Instead of assuming luck on one statistic (HR/FB) it regresses each statistic to the mean as a function of innings pitched. So say a guy strikes out 26% of his batter's faced in 29 innings. There is most likely a significant amount of luck in that percentage, so tRA* will regress that to the mean to account for that expected luck, and his "true" K% during that time will be around 18%. tRA will regress strikeouts less than HR/FB ratio, or line drive percentage, etc. as strikeouts are more in the pitchers control than those stats. However, from what I gather, tRA* treats no stat as a "luck" or "skill" stat and instead treats them all as somewhere in between. I love it. The problem is that I don't really know how the regression is calculated.
ERA/RA
RA is just how many runs the pitcher gave up per 9 innings. A while ago, some dumbass had the idea that the only way pitchers can be effected by their defense was through errors, so he invented a stat that only debited pitchers when the run scored was deemed to be their fault. However, errors are hilariously not correlated at all with actual defensive value (or at least estimated defensive value). Anyway, the problems with ERA and RA are like I said above. They give credit for everything the pitcher does, when that clearly shouldn't be the case in real life.
Still, they contain some information in them that all of the other metrics don't. For one, they contain info related to sequencing of events, pickoff moves, runner holding ability, batted ball skill, and other things that none of the DIPS estimators capture. And a lot of the discrepancies between ERA/RA and DIPS are just based on luck, rather than defense. And I'm not really sure that we should count luck against the pitcher when judging Retrospective value.
All of these metrics have some strengths and weaknesses to them. I would personally just use some sort of combination of RA and tRA for judging Retrospective value, and basically just tRA* for judging Retrospective skill.
Adjustments
These are key to put players on an even playing field. A pitcher who plays in Coors is much more likely to have a higher ERA or DIPS than a player who plays in Petco. Furthermore, a guy who faces the Yankees every couple of weeks is likely to have a higher ERA than a guy who faces the Royals.
Adjustments should include park at the minimum, and probably batter's faced as well.
Replacement level
Whatever metric you decide to use for WAR, it will basically model how many runs a pitcher should have given up per 9 innings. For that to be useful in a value sense, you have to compare that to some sort of baseline. The baseline for WAR is "Replacement", which is, simply put, the expected production of the last resort guy in the minor leagues or on the waiver wire.
I'm not exactly sure how replacement level is calculated for pitchers; however, I assume it's determined in a similar manner to that of hitters. Basically, you look at the projections of the tweeners (guys between the majors and the minors) and average them out. For starters, it's around a 5.50 ERA and for relievers it's around 4.50.
Leverage
Leverage is basically the weight of a pitchers innings, determined by their volatility in expected winning percentage. So the 9th innings will have a much greater impact on which team wins than the first inning. For starting pitchers, leverage doesn't make much of a difference, but for relievers it is instrumental in how they are valued. Like I said, I won't go into great detail about leverage and it's effects on WAR in this post.
It's getting kind of late, so I'll sign off on this post. Basically, WAR is pretty simple for starting pitchers. The most important aspects are the run estimators you use, and what kind of adjustments you make. For relievers, it becomes a lot more complicated and I'll go into that, as well as describing some implementations of pitcher WAR in the next post.
134 comments
|
8 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
thanks for the rundown
one aspect of several of these metrics that i never quite follow (as you say) is what regressions are used, even what it means to regress? is this a uniform process like least squares?
where does defensive positioning fit in? does the cardinals positioning differ enough to make it a factor for a cards pitcher vs a pirates pitcher, or ???
how are situations figured in, eg, manager decides to let the run in and play for 2? not every situation is managed to optimize the pitcher’s performance.
all in all, interesting but the variety in itself tells us that there is a lot eye of the beholder in deciding which of these formulations give us the best picture of the value of an individual pitcher and, as far as management is concerned, how much to pay them.
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
i'd like to hear these questions addressed
but i think the questions themselves point out how inexact of a science this is, such as the positioning angle.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Crash course here, sorry this got a little long on me
Regression in this sense is basically how you best guess what a pitcher’s “true talent level” is. Statistically your best guess is to include—-in proportions—-your observation data (say a pitcher’s K% over 200 innings) and the average pitcher’s K%. You do this because of the “regression to the mean” phenomenon wherein after any given sample (say a pitcher’s 200 innings of K%), the next sample observation is more likely to move towards the mean than it is further away from the mean. So if over 200 innings, a pitcher strikes out 25% of the batters and the mean is 18%…..in the next sample of that same pitcher, he is more likely to strike out say 20% of the batters than he is to strike out 30% of the batters. He regresses towards the mean. So when you see a guy that has a 25% K% after 200 innings, you account for this by including some proportion of the mean to guess what his actual true talent K% is going forward. (I hope I’m making sense?)
Sample size comes into play in that the larger the sample, the less you have to regress. For the most basic example: you pick a random MLB pitcher and after 1 batter, that pitcher could have a K% of 100%. Well obviously he’s not really a true talent 100% K guy, so you basically have to assume he is no better than average i.e. you regress it all the way to the mean. You have no evidence that he’s anything but an average K% pitcher. Randy Johnson on the other hand struck out 28.6% of batters over 17000 PAs against, it’s safe to say that the average pitcher’s K% doesn’t have a lot to do with Randy Johnson’s K% so there’s very little reason to include the average pitcher’s K% in guessing what Randy’s true talent was. That’s the black and white example, it’s pretty much all grey area in between.
The type of statistic matters quite a bit. VEP mentions that strikeouts are regressed less than HR/FB% for example more or less because strikeouts are demonstratively more “skill” than HR/FB% is. In statistical terms, it’s basically accounting for the fact that if a pitcher strikes out a higher % of batters than average, you can be more “sure” than with HR/FB that he is actually better than average in that area.
The black and white example: if over 200 flips a coin lands 110 heads and 90 tails, that’s pretty much irrelevant. You know the mean is 50% and it’s pure random variation that is causing the 110/90 split. You regress the coin’s heads% back to 50% because it’s not a skill. On the other hand, if a player at the NFL combine runs a 4.2 40-yard dash even once, you can pretty much say the guy has 4.2 speed. It’s that player’s skill that is allowing him to run 4.2, not random stuff (not a perfect example as reaction time and whatnot is going to be somewhat random but I hope you get the point, you know the MFer is fast).
Not afraid to nitpick
That's basically correct
Except it’s not even for true talent level purposes. When a guy strikes out a batter, there is a good chance there is a lot of luck involved in that strikeout. The batter might have swung and missed at pitches that would normally get hit a percentage of the time, or the umpire might have given the pitcher some favorable calls. Since we are trying to isolate pitcher skill, one way to do that is for regression. This is basically a shortcut for inference (if a pitcher strikes out one batter in one at bat, how much of that is expected to be luck and how much skill).
by vivaelpujols on Feb 14, 2010 10:04 PM EST up reply actions
That's what I was saying
I’m using “true talent” to mean the player’s actual controllable skill level in a given statistic.
Not afraid to nitpick
This is just an awesome writeup.
The intro with the breakdown of the WAR formula had me worried you might get too fine with the details, but I think you nailed this one. I feel like I already had a good handle on this stuff, but it definitely feels clearer for me now.
In short, rec.
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
Excellent
Thanks for the post!
Play ball!
by IL and StL Fan on Feb 14, 2010 11:27 AM EST reply actions
To be honest, I didn't think this was my best piece
It was 2 when I finished and I was too tired to write anything more, but there was a lot of stuff I still hadn’t covered. Thanks much for the appreciation.
I thought it was great
definitely helped my idea of the stat a lot
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 14, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
I think the 2 AM aspect comes through a tiny bit in the writing (i.e. a few typos)
But the content is fantastic, so there’s nothing to be ashamed of here.
I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...
1. America, FUCK YEAH!!
2. Pitchers and Catchers is my typical friday night.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
looks like
subtract the decimal form of a win . like if it were 36 you would enter – .36.
then again, maybe not…
-0.C
I’m pretty sure it’s a typo.
C = a replacement level pitcher’s neutral winning percentage, which is set around .38 for starters and .46 for relievers
So C already is .38. What is -0.C, then? Must be a typo. -0..38 doesn’t make any sense. I wonder what the formula is.
it can't just be an extra '-0.'
because that makes the equation way more complicated looking than it needs to be (the -1 in the (E-1) of the second term would cancel out the first huge term).
by brackenthebox on Feb 14, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
I tried a little perl program with the formula above and got 66 wins for Carpenter. What'd I do wrong?
#!/usr/local/bin/perl
- (((b/a)^(((a+b)/0.92)^0.28)/((B/a)^(((a+b)/0.92)^0.28+1))-c)d/9)
my $a = 2.22; # pitcher ERA
my $b = 4.50; # (league ERA)
my $c = .38; #replacement level win percentage (.38 for starters and .46 for relievers)
my $d = 200; #ip
my $e = 1; # extra leverage, i guess
printf “%.2f\n”, ((($b/$a)^((($a+$b)/0.92)^0.28)/(($b/$a)^((($a+$b)/0.92)^0.28+1))-$c)$d/9);
Revised perl program that actually works
#!/usr/local/bin/perl
my $pitcherEra = 2.28; # pitcher ERA
my $leagueEra = 4.70; # (league ERA)
my $replacementWinningPct = .38; #replacement level win percentage (.38 for starters and .46 for relievers)
my $ip = 192.2; #ip
my $leverage = 1; # 1 is starting pitcher leverage
my $patExponent = .28;
my $eraToRa=.92;
my $scoreRatio = $leagueEra/$pitcherEra;
my $totR = $leagueEra + $pitcherEra;
my $power = ($totR/$eraToRa)$patExponent;
my $winningPct = $scoreRatio$power/($scoreRatio**$power+1);
my $war = ($winningPct-$replacementWinningPct)*$ip/9;
my $warWithLeverage = $war + $war * ($leverage – 1);
printf “%.2f\n”, $warWithLeverage;
printf “%.3f\n”, $winningPct;
Revised Perl program, with pre tags...
#!/usr/local/bin/perl my $pitcherEra = 2.28; # pitcher ERA my $leagueEra = 4.70; # (league ERA) my $replacementWinningPct = .38; #replacement level win percentage (.38 for starters and .46 for relievers) my $ip = 192.2; #ip my $leverage = 1; # 1 is starting pitcher leverage my $patExponent = .28; my $eraToRa=.92; my $scoreRatio = $leagueEra/$pitcherEra; my $totR = $leagueEra + $pitcherEra; my $power = ($totR/$eraToRa)**$patExponent; my $winningPct = $scoreRatio**$power/($scoreRatio**$power+1); my $war = ($winningPct-$replacementWinningPct)*$ip/9; my $warWithLeverage = $war + $war * ($leverage - 1); printf "%.2f\n", $warWithLeverage; printf "%.3f\n", $winningPct;
C should just be the replacement level winning percentage
So it should be -C, and not -0.C.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 14, 2010 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
34.6, not 8.3
Using the formula above results in 34.6 for Carpenter’s numbers, not 8.3. The formula given doesn’t take into account the .77 W% that was mentioned later, though. Where is .77 used in the formula? It’s not A, B, C, D, or E..
#!/usr/local/bin/perl
my $A = 2.28; # pitcher ERA
my $B = 4.70; # (league ERA)
my $C = .38; #replacement level win percentage (.38 for starters and .46 for relievers)
my $D = 192.2; #ip
my $E = 1; # extra leverage, i guess
printf “%.2f\n”, (((($B/$A)^((($A+$B)/0.92)^0.28)/(($B/$A)^((($A+$B)/0.92)^0.28)+1))-$C)*$D/9);
A, B, C, D and E are the indi
Then I’m not really sure what you are doing wrong. Using my excel spreadsheet formula:
=((((4.7/E28)^(((E28+4.7)/0.92)^0.28)/((4.7/E28)^(((E28+4.7/0.92)^0.28)+1)) -0.38)*D28/9)+((((4.7/E28)^(((E28+4.7)/0.92)^0.28)/ ((4.7/E28)^(((E28+4.7)/0.92)^0.28)+1))-0.38)*D28/9)*(F28-1)
With 4.7 as league RA, E28 as Carptenter’s run average, D28 as innings pitched, .38 as replacement level winning percentage and F28 as leverage, I get 8.6 WAR for Carpenter. I’m not sure why it’s different from the one I posted above, but I might have just accidentally wrote 8.3 instead of 8.6.
If you are inputting this formula:
=((((B/A)^(((A+B)/0.92)^0.28)/((B/A)^(((A+B/0.92)^0.28)+1))-0.C)*E/9)+ ((((B/A)^(((A+B)/0.92)^0.28)/((B/A)^(((B+A)/0.92)^0.28)+1))-C)*D/9)*(E-1)</pre With: A = pitcher run average B = league run average C = replacement level winning percentage D = innings pitched E = leverage (1) You should get the right answer.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 15, 2010 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
Well, now you've changed it. The first line is missing a right parenthesis after A+B.
And now you’re using E instead of D in the first line. And if E is 1, the 2nd line will result in multiplying by 0, which is 0, so why bother with it? In which case D isn’t even used, which implies that innings pitched don’t matter. And that first line now has -0.C!
Also, the excel spreadsheet formula you pasted in has an extra left parenthesis
((((4.7/E28)^(((E28+4.7)/0.92)^0.28)/((4.7/E28)^(((E28+4.7/0.92)^0.28)1))
-0.38)*D28/9)((((4.7/E28)^(((E28+4.7)/0.92)^0.28)/
((4.7/E28)^(((E28+4.7)/0.92)^0.28)+1))-0.38)D28/9)(F28-1)
If I remove the first left parenthesis, I get 42.71 instead of 34.60.
Where did you get the formula from?
Maybe we should just divide the whole thing by 4
34.60 / 4 = 8.65, which is close to 8.6.
Gar, perl's power operator is **, not ^
Now I get 8.58. :-) Fangraphs shows 5.6 for Carpenter.
FanGraphs uses FIP, which has Carp allowing many more runs
I’m using RA, but you could put whatever run estimator you want in. Remember that FIP is on a different scale, so you have to divide both the pitcher’s and league FIP by .92 to get it on a run scale.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 17, 2010 1:47 AM EST up reply actions
What is .92?
Thanks, that makes sense, except where does .92 come from?
That's how to get ERA on a RA scale
Roughly 92% of runs are earned.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 17, 2010 2:11 AM EST up reply actions
What I meant to say is that the .77 is figured out in the formula, so you don't have to figure it out yourself
This is the one step, closed form equation for WAR.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 15, 2010 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
then you have that huge term written out twice for no reason
it should reduce to:
((((B/A)^(((A+B)/0.92)^0.28)/((B/A)^(((A+B)/0.92)^0.28)+1))-C)*D/9)*E
unless I’m missing something
by brackenthebox on Feb 15, 2010 8:14 AM EST up reply actions
That's to acount for leverage I think
It won’t make a difference for starters, but it will for relievers.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 15, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
the equation I wrote is the same as yours
the -1 from the E-1 cancels out the first line
by brackenthebox on Feb 15, 2010 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
Right, but that's because starters have a leverage of "1"
Relievers have a different leverage, so that’s why that part of the formula is in there.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 15, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
I hate all metrics for picthers..
I really do. I would love for there to be one or two stats that you can look at a see who is a better pitcher. But I don’t think there is. The more stats you can look at the better.
For me a Pitcher preformace comes down to these things:
1. ) Game plan. This is a collective effort between the pitcher, the pitching coach, and the catcher. Once the inning is started the Catcher calls the game, but it falls on the pitcher to know what is going on and to call off the catcher whenever he is incorrect. (If the pitcher doesn’t want to throw that pitch it isn’t going to be a good pitch).
2.) Stuff. How well a pitch is thrown. Location, speed, break, etc. If Beltran hits that wicked curve from Wainwright for a home run, does that make it any less of a good pitch? Does that make Wainwright less of pitcher? Then why to we just worry about what happened?
I know that most of the stats are normalize to eliminate noise like Beltran getting lucky. But you can’t. That’s why I feel the only thing that matters when evaluating a pitcher is quality of the plan used to attack the batters and the quality of the pitches he is throwing.
So how do you decide whether one pitcher is better than another?
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
I'm not the answer guy.
Just the question guy.
There needs to be a way to quantify “stuff”. You can look at Pitch Fx data and see that some pitchers just have wicked stuff. So we would need a way to take that number and put it into a stat that will allow it to be compariable to other pitchers
Then we need to be able to grade a pitcher’s game plan and ability to stick to that plan. Which is the harder one of the two.
in support of evilfrog
the Beltran example, eg; to quote Jack Buck, “I don’t believe… what I just saw.”
Events DO average out, and the cream DOES rise to the top, but:
pitch by pitch, stats, smats.
I would love for there to be one or two stats that you can look at a see who is a better pitcher.
Just look at FIP, and any decent sample can give you an excellent idea.
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
any stat that tells me
Vazquez is a better pitcher than Carpenter is wrong. If I had to use a metric to compare pitchers it would be tRA. But because it is subject to errors in batted ball classification I wouldn’t use it by itself.
any stat that tells me Vazquez is a better pitcher than Carpenter is wrong.
Why?
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
not necessarily
the vast majority of independent scouts/talent evaluators would probably agree with evilfrog.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Misclassification of batted balls != bias
Unless of course you can show that there is actually bias.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 14, 2010 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
bias only exists when it can be proven?
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
by prophetjohn on Feb 14, 2010 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
Bias only can be invoked as a reason when there is actually a reason for that bias
by vivaelpujols on Feb 14, 2010 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
Meaning
You can’t just say that the only reason Vazquez was better than Carp last year was because tRA or FIP is biased against one or the other. You actually have to show a reason for that bias.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 14, 2010 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
i think
codyg is saying in response to hazel’s question of “why?” that evilfrog is biased
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
by prophetjohn on Feb 14, 2010 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
I think what CodyG is saying
is that Evilfrog is biased, therefore Carpenter is better than Vazquez.
Time for a new sig.
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 14, 2010 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
Guess pj and I
should read all the comments before commenting, is what you’re saying.
Time for a new sig.
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 14, 2010 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
DON'T YOU TELL ME WHAT I SHOUD DO
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
by prophetjohn on Feb 14, 2010 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
I have no response
to your sarcasm.
Time for a new sig.
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 14, 2010 11:40 PM EST up reply actions
Why?
FIP is K/BB/HR. Where’s the bias?
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
I guess Vazquez could have faced worse hitters?
That’s certainly possible and would have an effect on his FIP, but you actually have to show it.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 14, 2010 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
09 quality of batters ops faced
vazquez .731, carpenter .721, BP
by ball in play on Feb 15, 2010 9:44 AM EST up reply actions
not really saying the stat is biased but evilfrog
negating any stat because it shows one pitcher better than another because of your personal belief is biased.
Then may I suggest the eye test metric
or AQ (Awesomeness Quotient) It’s how I judge pitchers.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
I agree with you to an extent
A pitcher’s summary statistics (Ks, BBs, HRs, etc.) are only the results of each at bat, and they are obviously influenced by many other things than the pitcher’s actual skill. However, over time, that luck dissipates and you are left with each of those outcomes being primarily influenced by pitcher skill. Combining those stats in a certain way, like FIP or tRA does, allows us to infer how well the pitcher pitched. We can’t say that a guy with a 3.00 tRA definitely pitched better than a guy with a 4.00 tRA, however, there is a high chance of that.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 14, 2010 10:27 PM EST up reply actions
You must be wrong
Todd Wellemeyer says so. Any time a hitter hits a dinger off him, it is only due to luck, and nothing else. Ever.
Time for a new sig.
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 14, 2010 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
Either that
or it’s the ump’s fault.
Time for a new sig.
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 14, 2010 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
I just blame Adam Kennedy.
In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his recievers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
Why, you just ask Al Hrabosky
of course.
Is it Spring yet?
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Feb 15, 2010 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
if you google "baseball regression"
you can read a range of opinions on what regression means for baseball
(interestingly, you don’t see much regression to the mode or median, which seem like they also have some practical importance)
i agree with those who say some kind of normailzation is useful (even essential), but there is no absolute way to do this because everything changes continuously, including a players age, or team, or spot in the order, etc
inexact, but interesting world
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
i wonder if those values are artificially high for the larger samples
There’s a pretty strong selection bias for good pitchers when you look at the 110 IP slice. Considering that the fit metrics all tend to break down at the extremes, those higher inning samples seem likely to have some systematic bias in them.
by brackenthebox on Feb 14, 2010 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
I laughed a little bit here:
A while ago, some dumbass had the idea that the only way pitchers can be effected by their defense was through errors…
Here’s the sad thing… people STILL cling to this idea because they either don’t know better or arrogantly assume anything with a funny-sounding name is just a made up, invented bit of hocus pocus (ignoring of course that ERA doesn’t exist in some ethereal realm… it too was invented by someone). I love my father, but he and I have an unspoken agreement not to talk about stats when we watch baseball games b/c they always turn into blood feuds. Other than W/L, ERA is the one I have the hardest time getting my dad to understand. It blows his mind that bad, rangeless outfields will cause more doubles than, say, the Mariners will. He’s 72 now, so I’m probably not going to change his mind anytime soon.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Feb 14, 2010 2:21 PM EST reply actions
Who's watchin the 500 today?!
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
It's the sequel to the movie 300.
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
by hazel on Feb 14, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I tend to leave trailin' g's off of words.
…This shouldn’t be anythin’ new to you people.
But yes, certainly watchinG Daytona today.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
Woo having asphalt problems
Luckily since I have a master’s degree in that stuff I got to yell at the redneck claiming it was because of the rain they had… Which from what I saw on TV would not have been the direct cause of it. Granted I didn’t get a great look at what happened so I may be wrong with my opinion formed from blimp cam.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
I'd be willing to bank on the fact that it hasn't been resurfaced since 1978
…Daytona’s likely to be resurfaced following the July race this year.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Feb 14, 2010 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
From the closer picture I saw
it looks like they had a bonding issue between the surface and the underlying layer. Those are problems that exist that tend to be exacerbated if water gets into the pavement.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
and freezes
recent freezing weather in fl, ie, freeze follows rain as front moves through, will loosen the surface because any crack or crevice the water got in to and then freezes 9expands) breaks up the surface
net = splitting pavement
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
Freezing is how it happens around this part of the world
I’m not sure what the recent weather was in Florida. But assuming it wasn’t a F-T cycle problem… if there was water trapped in that part of the pavement, it could have weakened the pavement when the force of a 3400 pound car going 190 and turning attacked the pavement. Basically the water is incompressible so the force from the car would push it through the pavement along lines of relative weakness and as the water cycled in and out of these cracks it would weaken the pavement structure… eventually leading to part of the pavement to chunk out. From there the cars hitting that gap would chip off the pavement a few stones at a time. However I’m not exactly sure what the forces on that pavement would be so this is my best estimate to explain it if there was no F-T cycle.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
we've had multiple f-t cycles over the past month
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
That explains it
since I’m assuming the compaction at the edge of lane technology wasn’t in 78 what it is now. Lack of compaction makes it much easier to get water into your pavement. Oh well the main cause of it was the lack of bonding between layers… so yeah how bout that.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
The giant piece of bubblegum
they stuck on the track was kind of cool though.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Bondo...
it’s just not for half assed car repair anymore.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
According to Rotoworld
Strauss is saying that the Cardinals are no longer pursuing Wang. Didn’t see this posted anywhere, and I know what VEB thinks of Strauss, but it’s a slow news day, so far.
Time for a new sig.
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 14, 2010 2:59 PM EST reply actions
Mozeliak couldn't find the proper fit for Wang.
In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his recievers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
Sorry
Not gonna do it…nope, not gonna go for it…
Time for a new sig.
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 14, 2010 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
Wang isn't for everyone.
Forget it, spants. It's Chinatown. - tom s.
by spants on Feb 14, 2010 5:00 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Personally, I don't think Wang is a good choice.
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
yeah, wang chung isn't very good.
Check out my sports blog!
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
SIGN FELIPE LOPEZ & JOHN SMOLTZ!
Wang's performance hasn't improved with age.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
YOU CANNOT RESIST!!!!
Also, these jokes are hilarious, I love immaturity.
In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his recievers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
Well, you know what they say.
You pursue Wang, you might just get fucked.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 15, 2010 8:48 AM EST up reply actions
are there any links to tRA* or SIERA
would like to see how the leaders for those stats compare with FIP and ERA
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 14, 2010 3:02 PM EST reply actions
unless I'm missing something, that chart has neither tRA* nor SIERA
and I think Cards Fan was looking for lists of players at the top of each metric.
Interesting chart all the same. Those errors seem depressingly high, though 110 IP still seems like a pretty small sample.
by brackenthebox on Feb 14, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
it's 110 and 110 (so, 220)
the author split single season stats into even and odd days of pitching.
Well the girls would turn the color of the avocado when he would drive down the street in his El Dorado... -the modern lovers
yeah
not exactly what I was looking for, but it was interesting. pretty much proves what VEP said I think. so I’m looking at tRA* right now over at statcorner
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 14, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
So I'm confused
have we found something that spells out tRA* yet or not? Because that one confuses the hell out of me and I want to read something about it before I ask questions and embarrass myself and waste everyone’s time.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
I thought those were toasted ravs
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Fair enough
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
I think they'll serve them at the viva el bar
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Feb 15, 2010 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
ot: an SBN'd
“502 Bad Gateway
The server returned an invalid or incomplete response.”
There’s something prescient/poetic about that.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
per roto sidebar
Brendan Ryan and David Freese will both be in camp on tuesday
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 14, 2010 7:12 PM EST reply actions
this is bad news, right?
now Boog will be in ST… injury risk…!
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Holliday's going all out
Did anyone notice that the site's browser header changed?
“Viva El Birdos – For St. Louis Cardinals Fans”
Sounds like a clubhouse. “Stay out Cubs fans!”
Forget it, spants. It's Chinatown. - tom s.
Well we wanted to change it
to NO GIRLS ALLOWED!!!
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
I like to keep it classy.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
hillarious pic btw vep
illustrates the point
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 15, 2010 1:21 AM EST reply actions
This is all great stuff.
But I need to see some baseball, dammit.
Forget it, spants. It's Chinatown. - tom s.
I was just thinking...
pitchers and catchers are reporting soon… that means I get to go outside and start playing catch right?
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
Sucks for you guys...
granted last Tuesday I was shoveling snow for 3 hours so there’s that…
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
Questions
The linked RE matrix by Tom Tango is calculated from 1999-2002 MLB data. I’ve read <The Book> and been absolutely fascinated by his great works; however, that era had a higher RPG than now, so the matrix should be tweaked, IMO. How do you think?
I’m somewhat confused how to calculate the replacement level pitcher’s winning percentage. Can you show us how you get the winning percentage, .38 for starters and .46 for relievers? In addition, Tom Tango set the replacement level relievers’ winnning percentage at .47, so I’m curious why your number is slightly different from him.
I have a lot of questions and stuffs to discuss(since there are very few SABR-minded baseball fans in Korea), however, due to time difference and my 40-days-old son, it’s pretty difficult to talk with you.
Cardinals fan from Korea

by 



















