Top-End Talent
by DanUpBaby on Feb 1, 2010 6:00 AM EST
929 comments
The easiest way to slag the Cardinals' thin post-Walrus collection of prospects is to say that it lacks "impact" talent. (There are indeed a lot of ways, but that's the easiest one.) Several players in the average top ten don't strain the imagination as legitimate Major Leaguers, but it's seemingly always as a fifth starter or a backup infielder. Whatever you thought of Wagner Mateo—whatever you think of any sixteen year-old who is apparently worth $4 million—his eye problems robbed the Cardinals of their designated Brett Wallace replacement, and without him Shelby Miller is the lone Future Star in the bunch.
But there's something to be said for players who are close to the majors. If the Cardinals don't have anybody else who's likely to pile up wins before he hits his arbitration years, they are relatively flush with players who will keep them out of the trash heap over future Hot Stove seasons. In vague order of their proximity to the majors...
David Freese. I like to think I'm relatively open-minded about imperfect prospects, but even I am tired of talking about David Freese, who is three years younger than Matt Holliday. That said, he's already kept the Cardinals out of the market for a number of players, some of whom turned out, in this strange market, pretty affordable. Adrian Beltre or Felipe Lopez would probably have made the Cardinals better in 2010, but the way the team has held its wallet close of late makes it no sure thing that they ever planned on being able to afford a name-brand third baseman and Matt Holliday at the same time.
As a third baseman who's likely to be somewhere around average, if not quite at it, David Freese keeps the Cardinals out of the market for Joe Crede types at the low-end and imperfect above-average guys like Adrian Beltre and Mark DeRosa.
Jaime Garcia. I'm not sure if this is an unalloyed Good Thing or not, but by having kept the fifth starter job out of the hands of a Jon Garland-type, Jaime Garcia has already begun easing the team's free agent burden. We've been talking about Jaime Garcia being close to the majors since he was dominating the Midwest League, but even if he doesn't start the year in St. Louis, this looks like the year he'll finally be there to stay.
Garcia, the prototypical scoutspeak Third Starter, is the kind of player who leaves the idea of the "impact player" distended and unsatisfying. A real third starter looks something like Jeff Suppan, but if a scout thinks a player looks like Jeff Suppan (see Lance Lynn) there is almost no chance they'll use that terminology. In the next few years Garcia has a fair shot at an ERA under four, or an ERA+ over 110, and if that isn't an impact player I humbly present, as contrary evidence, the difference, in value, between Kyle Lohse in 2008 and Kyle Lohse in 2009.
Garcia kept the Cardinals out of the market for fifth starters this year; in the future he seems like a fair bet to occupy the Brad Penny spot.
Allen Craig. Bench bats like Allen Craig are rarely expensive—at least when they're intended, from the beginning, to be bench bats—but when the Cardinals are without one strange things begin to happen: people start Kevin Mench fanclubs, Nick Stavinoha begins to look like a palatable bench option, Jim Edmonds decides he wants to play baseball again, after all.
Craig was also what amounted to the Cardinals' leverage during the Matt Holliday negotiations. He's probably below average for an outfielder right now, but think about some of the outfielders who were signed and played as starters in 2009—Garret Anderson and Jeff Francoeur, to name two who combined to torpedo the Braves' chances last year. If you've got league-average offense, and Craig looks like he will, and you hit home runs every so often, somebody is going to consider starting you in left field.
This kind of player isn't extremely valuable in a vacuum, but he keeps the Cardinals from freaking out and signing a league-average guy at above-market rates.
Daniel Descalso. I saved my favorite non-impact prospect for last. When was the last time the Cardinals had a second base prospect who looked ready to step in and be a passable second baseman? Shaun Boyd? Descalso is by no means a perfect prospect, but his .266/.326/.393 ZiPS projection and basically average defense is a pretty fair Skip Schumaker impression.
Guys like these are crucial to a Cardinals team that's committed to paying two superstars a ton of money. If you don't have cheap, average players like Descalso and Freese manning the non-star positions, you're going to have cheap, bad players manning them instead. The MV3 squads fell apart when Jim Edmonds and Scott Rolen did, but they weren't much helped by having to pay full price for Kip Wells, Juan Encarnacion, and Adam Kennedy.
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Good start to the Week - Nice Post
I agree there is not a great deal of impact talent. I am still intrigued to see how Joey Bombs recovers. Let me say I am optimistic anyway. This speaks to our need to be very healthy this year. I would take 2009 from our stars and pitching staff in a heartbeat! We’ll be lucky to repeat the last season on the mound.
SD
Agreed...
Good stuff DanUp. I agree that we’d rather have cheap average players than expensive average players. I think the birds will be alright in 2010. As for the mound, I’m excited to see what Penny does with Duncan’s tutelage, and how Garcia (et. Al) pan out. Hopefully we can avoid the Boggs-style 4.2 innings starts and get the bullpen a bit more settled. Plus, I think Lohse is due for an upswing.
Agreed as well
I think these guys are going to be good. I still have question marks about Freese (as, for some reason, I’m just unsure about him). I don’t know what the Cards are going to do with Craig (hopefully on the big league roster at some point this season). I think we’ll be as good as we were last year, maybe even better. I’ve got a good feeling about this year’s squad – and most of it hinges on Holliday re-upping with us.
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One thing missing here
is the abundance of talented bullpen arms, despite the fact that the club traded quite a few of them away last year. It’s not that it makes our farm system stand out more, but guys like Sanchez, Salas, Kelly, and Bittle, who could all be effective big league relievers. That should save the club from having to sign the LaTroy Hawkins’ and Brandon Lyon’s of the world, thereby leaving us with another $5-$10M to spend on other parts of the ballclub. I think building an effective bullpen from your farm system, whether it’s from drafting college relievers or turning failed starters into effective relievers, is an excellent way to keep costs down and pick up supplemental picks occasionally when they leave as free agents.
I guess I wouldn’t call Mitch Boggs “top-end talent”, but he’s definitely going to find a way onto the roster this year, and could be an effective fifth starter or middle reliever. He’s much better than Hawksworth or McClellan in terms of raw talent and tools, imo, and his walk rate is really all that’s holding him back from being a pretty good pitcher. If he can figure that out, I think he’s a nice addition to our pitching staff in some form or another.
Robert Stock has to be considered “high-end talent”. He just does. Any guy who’s dropping into most scouts’ top 15 prospect lists before playing a full season in the pros has to be considered top end talent. Now, you can justify that he’s more “high upside” than “top-end”, and maybe that’s what you were alluding to in your first paragraph, but I feel like Stock has as much upside as Shelby Miller does, especially when you consider that he’s a two way prospect — if he doesn’t make it as a catcher, he might be able to make it as a pitcher.
Not seeing Daryl Jones on this list is just depressing, but he really doesn’t deserve to be there after two pretty sub-par seasons. Maybe he can find his power stroke in 2010, but if he doesn’t, he’s just another Shane Robinson/Shane Peterson replacement outfield type.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I'm not sure that Stock would make the top-10/15 lists
of most teams’ farm systems, which is kinda the point: too many non-impact players masquerading as “high-end talent” who’d be considered useful but not high-end parts in better-stocked (so to speak) farm systems.
That said, I too am very interested in seeing what becomes of Stock. A real question is: just who are his comparables? Is it the set of players with comparable major-college-program experience, in which case he doesn’t look all that promising? Or the set of kids his age, in which case he looks VERY promising? There aren’t a lot of comparables out there for someone who played in a big-time program at as young an age as he did. To me that makes him the most “intriguing” prospect in the whole system. It does not necessarily make him high-end talent, although one can hope.
by StanTheManFan on Feb 1, 2010 9:41 AM EST up reply actions
There are a lot of people who played at colleges at the age he did
They are collectively called college sophomores.
Not afraid to nitpick
Uh, no.
Stock graduated a year early and started USC at 17 and a few days. He was still 17 when he played his first intercollegiate ball. That puts him in a VERY different demographic from college sophomores.
by StanTheManFan on Feb 1, 2010 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
Stock would of been a 1st Round pick if he went to baseball after high school
Or if he would of went to a community college instead of USC.
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 1, 2010 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
And Billy Rowell was a 1st round pick. We have more information now than we do then.
Not afraid to nitpick
He was 19 when he finished playing at USC
The age of a college sophomore. He was one year younger than a normal college player, it’s not that big of a deal. It’s not exactly as if true 1st round talent sophomores have too much problem dominating college, and technically Stock had more experience than a normal sophomore.
The guy dominated the Appy league over 160 PAs thanks to a .360 BABIP….along with say Michael Swinson who is a grand 2 months older.
Not afraid to nitpick
from catchers?
Not like he is an outfielder.
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 1, 2010 9:15 PM EST up reply actions
First team I clicked on
.302 .372 .481 from Miguel Gonzalez of the White Sox system, born December 1990.
Not afraid to nitpick
One year at that age
is a VERY big deal. So are three years of top college program playing (and coaching) time. Starting that playing time at age 17 is extremely unusual, and not at all like starting it at 19, which is much more typical of a college player. (Hm — that’s two years, not one. He not only finished HS early, he was young for the class he did graduate in.)
I am not saying that this puts him in particularly elite company, or stamps him as an elite prospect. My point is that it puts him in rare company — so rare that it’s difficult to predict what his development curve will be like. If you want to dispute that, find me another 19YO with three full seasons at a major college program before he ever hit the minors and then we can talk.
by StanTheManFan on Feb 1, 2010 9:26 PM EST up reply actions
Okay
The fact that he had two years at a major program by age 19 should mean that he would hit better than a normal kid at age 19. More experience, more familiarity with the pitchers—-.226 .354 .453, which just isn’t good for a college player. Put it this way, it’d have taken a MONSTER junior year for him to become a 1st rounder as a pure hitter after a line like that if he was a normal sophomore.
It’s not that difficult: at age 19 he wasn’t very good. Does that mean he has no chance? No, but all this excitement over 150 PAs in Rookie Ball is just ridiculous. He was a 2nd rounder because he throws 95.
Not afraid to nitpick
I think he has a lot of upside
I absolutely loved this pick
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 1, 2010 9:37 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, he does
He’s also not very likely to hit that upside as a hitter based on his performance the past 3 years.
Not afraid to nitpick
Or...
he got pushed to early, had a confidence problem, got moved to the pitching staff, got moved back to catcher after he was drafted….there are a lot of reasons why he may not have reached his potential as a college player.
The bottom line is that he has a shitload of upside and has two-way talent as both a pitcher and a catcher.
We get it joker, you don’t like Stock. There’s no need to dwell on it.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
...
Adrian Beltre or Felipe Lopez would probably have made the Cardinals better in 2010, but the way the team has held its wallet close of late makes it no sure thing that they ever planned on being able to afford a name-brand third baseman and Matt Holliday at the same time.
So what you’re saying is……..OPEN DEWALLET!!
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
future redbirds
just discussed keith law’s cardinals prospect rankings. i think it’s germane to this discussion. http://www.futureredbirds.net/2010/01/28/keith-laws-top-100/
Ed Sanchez
When was the last time the Cards had a bullpen prospect with a mid-90s fastball, a plus second pitch, and control? I can’t think of the guy if he exists. Sanchez is Chris Perez with better control but probably not as devastating of a second pitch. That’s somebody to get excited about in my book. I still can’t believe we gave away Perez AND Todd for a few months of DeRosa.
big buyer's regret on that one
I don’t care if DeRosa’s injury was unforeseeable, it was still too much to give up in the first place. In retrospect, I’m more dissatisfied with the DeRosa trade than I ever was or probably ever will be about the Holliday trade, given that (A) the organization seemed to have determined with some finality that Wallace did not have a position and (2) as nice as it would have been to use Wallace to land a dominant pitcher like Lee, there is no denying that this team needed offense bad. Losing 3-2, 2-1, or 1-0 is still a loss, and the best pitchers in the game can’t do much to help that.
yep
seems the holliday deal was in the works, so no real need for rosy
could just have as easily plugged freese in then too
and with perez and todd in camp, would be TONS better off
not mo’s most inspiring deal
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
I know you can't evaluate trades this way...
…but it ended being a real kick in the crotch that DeRosa didn’t play that well for the BoB. Of course, he was injured, and that’s not his fault, but the fact is that the Cardinals made a risky trade. They swapped a potential closer/setup man and another guy with a lot of role-versatility for a rental of a glorified utility player with a good, not great, bat. If that rental had paid off big time, that would have softened the blow… but he didn’t. So now the Cards are out two useful arms and have little to show for it. Awesome.
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by redbirdnation8206 on Feb 1, 2010 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
I guess what irks me about the DeRo trade
Is that he ended up playing like crap (because of an unpredictable injury, yes) — and we still cruised into the playoffs. In other words, we would’ve probably been in about the same place had we kept Perez and Todd and just rolled Thurston out there every day. Blegh.
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I still don't know why they never tried Craig
He couldn’t of been any worst. Was his defense really worst than Schumakers? I doubt Craig would of been 13 runs below average 3B.
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 1, 2010 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
maybe they were scared
to combine the two?
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To be fair
Craig was not hitting at the time of the trade (06/28/2009). I don’t know where to go to run a query on his line at that time but I do remember that he was hitting in the low .200’s and not hitting for power either. Yes he ended the season with the same line he has had at all stops but it took a monster second half for that too happen.
"I learned a long time ago if you keep checking your stats all year, you're going to end up in the toilet." - Chris Carpenter, 2009.
Some splits
I did some quick calculations from the splits found here and found his line through the end of June. It is .268/.327/.407. Not exactly the kind of numbers that would inspire Mo and Tony to think he was ready to be the solution.
"I learned a long time ago if you keep checking your stats all year, you're going to end up in the toilet." - Chris Carpenter, 2009.
I still remain pretty much alone in the camp that says (retrospective analysis aside) the DeRosa deal was fine
We get a supplemental round pick for DeRo which pretty much = Jess Todd (you ought to be able to draft pretty much the best college closer in the draft with that pick, if not, the 2nd best).
We were running out sub-replacement level options at 3B AND LF when we picked up DeRo (although I agree that the potential of a Holliday trade in the works lessened the value of DeRo’s positional versatility) and DeRosa could competently play both those positions. We stood to gain something like 2 wins over our other options by adding a healthy DeRosa of his 2007-mid-2009 ability. Yeah, the guy got injured and was only worth half a win or so, but the upside was much higher. 2 wins upped out playoff chances a LOT when we signed him, as we were in a very close race in the middle of the year with replacement-level (or worse) guys at his two best positions (i.e. in, value-wise, a perfect storm in terms of how much his potential 1.5-2 WAR performance could add to the team). We also couldn’t hit lefties a lick, running out one or even TWO of Ank, Rasmus, Dunc or Schu every time one was on the mound, and DeRosa has always been pretty good vs LHP.
So we gave up Chris Perez for that; I realise he’s got a lot of upside, and it’s very difficult to project how young pitchers will progress with regards to their command, but I think we forget how awful he actually looked when we traded him. Sure, he may have been near the bottom of his value (which is obv. a bad time to trade someone) but most of us, if we’re honest, will say that in the first couple of months we were (for some unknown reason!) hoping Perez would be traded rather than motte. Despite his decent start for the Indians, he still has severe control issues (I can’t see him being an “elite” reliever, maybe just a Dotel-type set-up guy, if he can’t reduce his walkrate, which he was never able to do in the minors either, and he’s shown a severe problem with homeruns – his HR/FB rate isn’t especially unlucky but he’s still coughed up a lot of gopher balls in his major league run so far).
Also, Allen Craig hit like shit in memphis and was playing left-field for the first couple of months of the season, so the idea that we could just bring up and improve our production straight away is maybe a little unreasonable – I’d have given him a shot last year, too, but at the middle of the year there were serious doubts about his bat, and it’s hard to say he’d actually earnt a promotion in any way.
Also, there was (at the time) a pretty strong chance DeRosa would end up a type A if he stayed healthy for the last few months. If I remember right, he was right on the A/B cusp when we traded for him, so maybe there was a 20-30% chance we ended up with a first round pick for him, which you’d imagine could replace Perez with a similar prospect, too.
No, I don’t think the deal was great, and I think the eventual inclusion of Todd instead of Samuel (who I don’t rate) as the PTBNL made it a pretty big win for the Indians, but I still think at the time it made sense for us to add DeRosa, and the haul for him wasn’t half as much as what we gave up for Holliday. I still think the Holliday deal was (at the time) more of an overpay, and we’re perhaps being excessively revisionist with our savaging of the DeRosa trade.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 2, 2010 6:43 AM EST up reply actions
it was a lot to pay
but we were paying from an area of surplus. i’m higher on sanchez than either of those two (moreso perez than todd) and beyond sanchez, there are a handful of guys that could turn into similar pitchers
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
And
we probably would not have made the DeRosa trade if the Holliday trade had occurred first. At the time of the DeRo trade, we desperately needed offense.
but
would we have made the holliday trade if dero was lighting things up?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
good question
but I think it’s too bad we couldn’t pull off the Holliday trade first – it would sure be nice to still have Perez and Todd (assuming one of them wouldn’t have gone in the Holliday trade had that occurred first)
yes
Good Reporter:
At the end of the All-Star break, Mozeliak and Beane first exchanged notes about re-sparking negotiations for Holliday. This day, they “talked specifics” as it became clear that Brett Wallace, the Cardinals’ high-profile, high-average Class AAA third baseman, would be the keystone to the deal.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
What I find more interesting
about Descalso is his last name. It means “without shoes” in Spanish. Without shoes is also a synonym for “shoeless”. And, if I recall correctly, there was another “shoeless” player in baseball, who was great, by the way! So… perhaps a connection there?
I want the Walrus back...
by Paulspike on Feb 1, 2010 10:22 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Are you saying...
that about 100 years ago, Shoeless Joe Jackson grew a mustache, changed his name, and went to play ball in South America in hopes of getting back to the big-leagues under his new identity only to fall in love with a local woman, marry, and have children, one of whom is Descalso’s grandfather?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 1, 2010 10:35 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
the mustaches just throw everything off
reincarnation could be anywhere
/religion
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
or it could mean
“without schu” foreshadowing the circumstances where he enters the team as an everyday player
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
isn't "without schu" a karaoke hit?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Feb 1, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Adam Kennedy
It also doesn’t help when you are paying Adam Kennedy $4MM to play elsewhere. That motley crew of Juan Encarnacion, Kip Wells, and AK—to which I would add Pineiro and Lohse are probably the list of Cardinals that I liked the least over the last five years. And the reason is what we were/are paying them for what we were/are/will be getting, which is nothing too terribly impressive. To abuse WAR:
- Kip Wells was paid $4MM by the Cards and was worth $3.3MM according to WAR. It sure seemed a lot more painful than it was…
- I think that Kennedy poisoned himself in the eyes of the organization and fanbase with his terrible 2007 (he was worth -$4.3MM), which was likely due to injury. His ‘08 wasn’t bad at all. And we paid him $4MM to go away in ’09. All in all, we paid $10MM for $3.7MM in value.
- We paid Encarnacion $8.5MM for his contributions in ’06 and ’07, which were worth $2.5MM.
- We paid Pineiro $5.5MM for $3.8MM’s worth of value in ’08 and then $7.5MM for $21.5MM in ’09.
- Lohse earned $7.43MM last season and was worth $3.7MM. This, after ’08, when he was paid $4.3MM for $13.9MM in performance value, which got him into the Ten-Millionaires Club.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
so you make those last two points--which the cardinals got a steal
and put them on your list of cardinals you’ve liked the least?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 1, 2010 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
I liked Lohse in '08.
But, after his extension, I am not wild about him with his contract now. What I’m saying is that Lohse at $4.25MM is great, but Lohse at $7.43MM (and $9MM+, and then $12MM+ in 2011 and 2012 each) is not. It’s amazing how a contract affects one’s perception.
I never liked Pineiro. I hated his contract and his ‘08 was abysmal. I enjoyed the ’09 ride, don’t get me wrong, but I never trusted it. That said, it does make his contract, as a whole, a win for the Cards.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
fair enough
it seemed as if the theme of the post was to complain about contract, which made sense with encarnacion, kennedy, wells, and (so far) the second lohse deal. but you have to admit (and you have) that the first lohse deal and the pineiro deal were great for the cardinals.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 1, 2010 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
I think one of the biggest reasons.....
we don’t have much of system is a) talent evaluation, and 2) conservative drafting.
Go back and check the results of past drafts. We’ve had alot of high, first and second round guys, just not develop into much. You draft a guy like Kozma, not expecting ARod, but expecting a ML starting SS to develop. That might not happen. You have 4 first round picks in 2005, with the last one resulting in Colby, and the first three resulting in a backup MI type. Past drafts are just littered with mistakes.
Now, it does appear that that has been turning around the past two drafts, maybe. I like what we’ve been doing. And part of that is not always drafting conservatively. You can’t always take the low ceiling guy b/c you are afraid to spend some coin, or you are afraid of striking out on the selection. Draft talent, not need. Talent can always be moved. That is why I liked the Walrus selection so much. Even if we knew he’d likely never play an inning in STL, it landed us a pretty darn good player.
Matt Holliday. Nuff said.
Kozma was a poor, poor draft pick
I was searching for some background on that pick and it seems some * on some random crappy blog called “Get Up Baby” disagrees with that assessment. It’s amazing what dumb opinions can be found on the internet.
BTW
for those that missed it, Get Up Baby was/is Dan’s home before VEB.
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
yeah
didn’t know if the comment was tongue-in-cheek or what
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
of course it was tongue-in-cheek
I thoroughly enjoy Dan’s posts. They’re incisive, clever, informative, and exceedingly well-written, but above all I think what I admire the most is the fact that Dan is dependable. Showing up is half the battle, and his post is always there at the prescribed time, without fail, no matter what. The kind of post a guy can set his watch to, which makes Dan a real straight-shooter in my book.
/gratuitous cheap shots
But it all has it's place......
RB posting late last Tuesday screwed up my whole Wednesday schedule. I enjoyed the Penny P/fx on Sunday though….oh wait, I see what you did there.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
i was sbn'd
my penny p/fx disappeared entirely. hopefully it’ll reappear unexpectedly one day.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I think it's still way too soon
to write off Kozma. The Cards really pushed him last year, perhaps unwisely, by putting him in AA. If he stays there this year, he will probably be much more productive, both offensively and defensively. Kozma was always touted as someone with good all around skills, without being superb in anything – perhaps such a players should not be taken first round – but I seem to remember that another team was going to take him right after our pick. A player with his type of tools can potentially be very valuable.
I dunno
I want to believe that but he’s been rushed so far and has been so utterly awful in AA it’s hard to see what his upside is at that level, it’s not even as if there’s been a glimmer of hope – his hitting’s been awful, his fielding’s been awful, he doesn’t seem to have improved in any aspect. It’s not like he’s still a teenager or anything, either. They should’ve moved him slower IMO, but it could well be he’d not have amounted to anything anyhow. I think he should probably start at high-A in 2010, tbh.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 1, 2010 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
When I read your comment
all I could think of was the comparison to a Boras joke of… I’ve got a 5 dollar bill here will you give me a 10 for it? NO? Well I got this other guy over here who’s going to give me a 20 for it so you should probably give a 50 for it so I don’t give it it him first.
I don’t think drafting a player to keep him away from other teams when he’s not a guy you know you really want especially in the first round is not a good way to run an organization.
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
by ducttape16 on Feb 1, 2010 8:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
does that apply to walrus, too?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
if duct's comment was meant for me
then I didn’t say we drafted him to keep him away from another team, only that we weren’t the only team that evaluated him that highly
Sorry I misread your comment then.
I was trying to say if you are drafting the best available talent I’m ok with that as that’s a sound strategy. However, if you are drafting a guy to keep him away from another team that really wants him without focusing as much scouting on him as you did other people that’s a really bad way to run things. Granted I don’t know what Kozma’s deal is since I don’t follow minor league stuff all that closely and wasn’t following that draft in particular any more than reading a stray article here or there about it. So if I sound like an idiot I probably am…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
no problem duct
but RB’s comment below (or above, depending on where this places) makes a valid point
Yeah it does.
I just misread the comment. I blame it on being in a gyro induced heaven…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
Gyros can definitely do that to a fellow.
Where did you acquire said manna?
Make way for the Homo Superior.
by the red baron on Feb 1, 2010 8:40 PM EST up reply actions
A place by me called Royal Gyro.
I drove by a couple days ago and thought I needed to head in when I got the chance. Tonite I was on an expedition for Chewy Lemonhead and stopped in for a meal.
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
In a related story...
I recommend avoiding Chewy Lemonhead. Standard Lemonhead, Cherryhead etc. are much better.
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
Royal Gyro?
I’m not familiar.
Wait, you live in San Fran, don’t you? Or am I thinking of someone else?
Make way for the Homo Superior.
by the red baron on Feb 1, 2010 8:45 PM EST up reply actions
I do
But I think there’s at least one other SF VEB’er.
I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...
I thought he was more SoCal?
Make way for the Homo Superior.
by the red baron on Feb 1, 2010 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
And I am once again defeated by a faster typist.
Make way for the Homo Superior.
by the red baron on Feb 1, 2010 9:11 PM EST up reply actions
Ah, yes.
Sorry, I can’t keep everyone straight geographically.
Make way for the Homo Superior.
by the red baron on Feb 1, 2010 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
I'm in the Chicago suburbs...
Hopefully when I find a job moving into the city or to the city I find a job in…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
I hail originally from Evanston
Anywhere near there?
I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...
I'm in Bloomingdale at the moment.
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
all is forgiven
for those in a “gyro induced heaven”
I don't think that was the point.
The point is that at the time there was much conjecture that the Cardinals didn’t need to take Kozma as early as they did, that he would have been available in a later round because he wasn’t a first-round talent. As more details came out in the weeks after the draft, we learned that wasn’t true. At least one and possibly two teams would have takent Kozma before the Cardinals picked again in the second round, meaning if they liked him and believed in him, they needed to pick him when they did.
Now, whethere or not Kozma was good enough to be taken in the first round at all is certainly debatable, but the fact is he wouldn’t have still be available in the second.
Make way for the Homo Superior.
by the red baron on Feb 1, 2010 8:33 PM EST up reply actions
He wouldn't have been available in the second
but there was a consensus that he probably would have been there when our supplemental pick came around. Had we taken Alderson and then Kozma I’d feel a lot better about things, although we’d probably be short one Mitch Boggs, who would have gone to Oakland in the Holliday deal instead of Mort (who was taken with the supplemental pick).
If someone wanted to take Kozma before that, fine, let him be their first round mistake.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I don't think he would have been.
Both the Twins and Blue Jays, who both picked after the Cards that year, were thought to be eyeing Kozma as their first-round selection. I don’t think he would have made it out of the first round no matter what.
Now, as to saying let someone else take him and make a mistake, that’s fine, but that’s also a separate argument, and not at all applicable here.
Make way for the Homo Superior.
by the red baron on Feb 3, 2010 1:23 AM EST up reply actions
and it's still not a given
that it was a mistake.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
I don't think it was a bad pick
Their is a severe shortage of short stops in baseball right now. I don’t their was one decent SS on the free agent market.
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 1, 2010 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
But when you can sign
a washed up 44 year old like Omar Vizquel and he’d probably be head and shoulders BETTER than a guy you drafted #1 who’s 22 years old, that’s not a good sign.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
i think it is an unfair to judge him against a HOFer
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 1, 2010 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
You don't think Omar Vizquel is a HOFer
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 1, 2010 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
he has 11 Gold Gloves
If Ozzie is in than Omar is.
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 1, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
I think he gets in, too.
Not first ballot, though.
I'm living in an age that calls darkness light...
but that doesn't necessarily exclude omar
i’d think he gets in eventually.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Really?
By the historical stats, by pretty much everyone’s consensus that Ozzie might be the best defender at any position in history, Ozzie stole 190 more bases while getting caught fewer times, and most importantly above all those other things: by my own completely unbiased eyes and thoughts, Omar was a poor-man’s version of Ozzie in every way.
Not afraid to nitpick
sort of luis aparicio?
he’s in, no?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Never was alive for Aparicio
But for what it’s worth, Aparicio is still well ahead of Omar on the Baseball Projection historical WAR list.
Not afraid to nitpick
where is that?
wondering the difference between ozzie and luis?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
A lot. But TZ isn’t exactly a dead on defensive measure which is what basically their entire value comes from.
Not afraid to nitpick
thanks
so glad bonds didn’t quite get past ruth on that list.
2 cards in top ten.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
of course if he eventually sits atop
the leaderboard, that’s fine.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I love how Chipper and Albert are right next to each other
with virtually the same WAR and Albert’s played half as many seasons.
I'm living in an age that calls darkness light...
and chipper's a HOF'er
so no slouch.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Everyone at that point in the list
is either in the HOF, not eligible yet, or still playing. It makes me happy.
I'm living in an age that calls darkness light...
Damn that '03 season was amazing.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Fucking Jeff Fassero and Esteban Yan and Brett Tomko
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
I don't know how many times in 2003...
during a game I said “Fucking Jeff Fassero”
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Feb 1, 2010 8:44 PM EST up reply actions
I always put it in the middle.
I like Fucking as a middle name sort of situation.
Make way for the Homo Superior.
by the red baron on Feb 1, 2010 8:45 PM EST up reply actions
Very true.
Or, at least, it doesn’t work in the same way.
Make way for the Homo Superior.
by the red baron on Feb 1, 2010 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
Jeff Fassero fucking didn't work in 2003
There
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
Oh please
He’s a pro baseball player, I’m sure the guy could afford Viagra.
I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...
he had no problem getting balls up
in the strike zone.
Wait, that doesn’t work here.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I like how Albert
at #40, is the only player to have started his career in the MLB after 1999, until you get to Ichiro at #163, and then it’s almost 200 more positions until you get to Utley at #359. Of course, these are only position players. The first pitcher who began his career after 1999 is Santana at 42.1 WAR, good for 112th on the pitchers list, but it would put him only at 255th on the hitters list. Which is why they separate them, I guess.
Time for a new sig.
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 1, 2010 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
Not all Gold Gloves are created equal. .
- Ozzie was widely considered to be a once-in-a-generation, game changing fielder. While Omar has 11 Gold Gloves, I don’t know anyone that would tell you that he had the defensive impact on the game that Ozzie did. The defensive metrics (such as they are for the eras in which the two of them played the bulk of their careers) seem to indicate that Ozzie was otherworldly with the glove at his peak, while Omar was merely above-average.
- Ozzie was a 15-time All-Star; Omar was a 3-timer.
- Ozzie actually was an above average hitter (i.e. OPS+ of > 100) 4 times in his career, and a near average on (i.e. 95-99) 4 times. Omar was above-average twice and near average 3 times.
- Ozzie’s has a better career OPS+, which is of course adjusted for era and Park factors, 87 to 83.
Being mediocre for a long time does not get you in the HOF, in my humble opinion. There are worse HOFers than Vizquel, but not many.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 1, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
All of this is kind of beside the point a bit
Even if Omar isn’t quite HOF material, the point still stands in that Kozma is being compared to someone who has been above-average defensively for much of his career.
Well, except. . .
he was drafted to be better than above-average defensively with the hopes that the rest of his game would become passable at the major league level, which is the reason many of us thought on draft day that his selection was a horrible reach.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 1, 2010 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
I wasn't necessarily trying to defend Kozma
I was just saying that this got off on a tangent about the skills of Vizquel instead of the original post about comparing Kozma to a current MLB player.
I think the point is valid in that it isn’t fair to compare Kozma to (at the least) a guy who in his prime was one of the best at his position. Most “above-average” shortstops would not be as good as Vizquel at age 44. Of course, what we all call “above-average” is very subjective.
This does sound a bit like I am defending Kozma
but I was just defending the point more than anything.
No....that wasn't the point
The point was:
If MLB SS are so “hard to find” as Flim asserted, then how come we could get a productive defensive player on the downside of his career as basically FAT. I could have used Orlando Cabrera in this vein as well.
The other point:
It’s stupid to reach on a player due to positional scarcity when there are other players on the board that nearly ever scout and talent evaluator agree are better players (Porcello, Alderson, Poreda). The “MLB SS are hard to find” argument really doesn’t hold much water. Why draft 7 Pete Kozma’s trying to find 1 Cal Ripken when you could draft 7 Adam Wainwright’s, Yadi Molina’s, Colby Rasmus’, and Brett Wallace’s with those picks.
The front office missed badly on this pick and, it seems, with our supplemental pick that year which was Clay Mortensen.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
This is what I was referring to
“i think it is an unfair to judge him [Kozma] against a HOFer [Vizquel]”
I take that as meaning that the only reason why 44 year old (or however old he actually is) Vizquel would be better than Kozma is because Vizquel was premium fielder at his position in his prime.
What you say could be part of the greater point, but I am only talking about this comment here.
but there weren't 7 Adam Wainwrights available
Out of the 2007 1st round guys that were picked after kozma, only 3 are in Keith Law’s top 100 prospects 2 years later, and then there are Julio Borbon and Rick Porcello, who don’t qualify as prospects. That’s it.
Now, almost certainly a few of those other guys will be late bloomers and turn into Yadier Molinas, but it’s too soon to say Kozma won’t be one of those guys, either.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
what round was niko vasquez taken?
/just to pick on somebody else for awhile.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
and who knows
niko may blossom one day – or he may not – hard to get very excited one way or the other at this point – but it often takes youngsters quite a while
if there's no sarcasm there
i’d say dj had a lot more to work with from the get-go. and though we could say he blossomed, he’s been withering since and is a huge question mark, imo.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Are you saying that Pete Kozma was the best player available for that pick?
If so, a lot of people at the time would have disagreed with you. Ignoring Porcello, Alderson was billed as a possible top 12 pick in that draft by a lot of scouts, as was Aaron Poreda. Both of those guys filled an organizational need as well.
Nearly everyone outside of the Cards organization thought this was a reach at the time, and it’s proven to have been a bad pick, based on the reasons that it was made:
- Elite defender (Hasn’t been seen yet)
- Could be a quick mover for a high school player (Hasn’t happened)
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
whatever, dude
You inplied there was an “adam wainwright” available.
There wasn’t.
I’d love to see you source for that quote about “the reasons it was made”, as well.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
Mortensen's done fine for a supplemental pick
I don’t think you can say it was a bad pick when they picked a high-floor, low-ceiling, fast-moving college arm with the hope that he makes the majors in 2-3 years, when the guy makes it to the majors in 3 seasons and looks like he’ll be slightly above replacement level, at worst.
I realise his velo and K rate dropped off when he got traded, and he had a DUI (I think), but when he’s been on the field he’s done pretty much as advertised, I think. More supplemental picks fail than make it, I reckon, and he’s done about as well as we could’ve hoped.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 2, 2010 7:06 AM EST up reply actions
I don't disagree
The draft wasn’t very deep that year, looking at the first three rounds. Not a lot of high impact talent and at least Mort sort of panned out based on the reasons that he was drafted.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I think it's unfair
to call a 43 year old FAT a “HOF level” player at this point in his career.
If you’re making the case that we drafted Pete Kozma because “MLB SS are hard to come by”, then you have to submit that Omar Vizquel, who was a FAT this offseason, is probably better at age 42 than Pete Kozma is going to be at that MLB level.
I think that finding ace starting pitchers is difficult too, but if I had 8 first round picks I’m not going to spend them all on starting pitchers — that’s simply a waste of resources. We should be taking the best player available in the first round, with minimal thought to team need. That’s what the Brett Wallace pick was, that’s what the Shelby Miller pick was, but that’s NOT what the Kozma pick was. Porcello was a top 10 talent that had fallen to us. I can understand not wanting to draft him due to signability issues (due to him taking up a spot on the 40-man roster with his first contract), but I don’t understand not taking Tim Alderson or Aaron Poreda, who both filled a need for the organization (starting pitching).
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Kozma
turns 22 in April, still pretty young for AA. And on his fielding, I remember reading the Cards thought he was doing pretty well. I know he made a ton of errors at Springfield. I am guessing he made a lot of great plays and flubbed the easy ones or had throwing problems, etc. Perhaps someone who saw him a lot in Springfield (or knows more than I do about his fielding) can chime in.
To me, too many of you are writing him off because he doesn’t show superstar potential (or probably because we could have picked someone else – :). Again, a very solid shortstop with good all around tools can be very valuable. Not to say he will ever get to the majors, but it’s just too soon to say he won’t.
I dunno. . .
Even on draft day, and even without grading him on the Rick Porcello curve, there were a lot of people who were saying that even if everything broke right for Kozma, his upside was David Eckstein. That’s not the type of guy that you spend a 1st round pick to get, IMHO.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 1, 2010 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
5 letters
WSMVP
or is it 4?
GRIT
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
obligatory FJM link whenever someone mentions Eckstein and GRIT
If you haven’t read this, you should. It’s hilarious.
"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR
It wasn't just that he struggled to hit in AA though
he was totally, totally over his head. Sure, maybe he was there a year early as per what you might expect his development curve to be, but this was a low-ceiling guy drafted to be a fast mover, and he had a .600 OPS. A .282 wOBA. Those aren’t just bad numbers, they’re completely atrocious.
I agree with you that he’s not finished as a prospect yet, and his BB/K ratio wasn’t abysmal, but perhaps he needs to move down for a few months in 2010.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 1, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
I was about to write something similar
Struggling at a level is like Colby Rasmus for much of ‘08 in Memphis. Kozma would have been better off had he gone to the plate with a rake or shovel and tried to rack up HBP’s. As you said, Felonius, the guy was supposed to be a polished, strong-fielding guy who could move quickly for a HS position player. He was honestly demotion material last year. That’s pretty frightening.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Feb 1, 2010 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
22 is young for AA?
Brett Wallace tore up AA as a 22 year old (.293/.367/.455 in 600 PA’s). Colby Rasmus tore up AA as a 20 year old (.275/.381/.551 in 556 PA’s). This is what 1st round picks are supposed to do. Rick Porcello, who we could have drafted INSTEAD of Kozma (and who I’ve said multiple times would have been a bad pick at the time considering that he wanted a major league contract from day 1) hit the majors and was successful last year at the ripe old age of 20. Being 22 years old in AA is NOT old, especially if you haven’t lost an entire year or two due to injury, and Kozma hasn’t missed much time at all due to injuries.
If you went back in time and told the Cardinals that Kozma would be struggling in AA after 3 full seasons in pro ball is there any fucking way they take him in the first round? He was an all-glove, low-upside bat to start with: His defense hasn’t been very good, and his hitting numbers make it look like he’s swinging a toothpick. The Cardinals just took a guy in the FIFTH ROUND named Ryan Jackson that has nearly all of the skills that Kozma has and is more polished because he went to college, and he’s only a year older than Kozma is. The only reason Kozma has been given any run at all on prospect lists is BECAUSE he was taken in the first round, when it’s becoming more clear than he was probably 3rd or 4th round talent.
He hasn’t shown improvement in any area of his game over the last couple of seasons. Compared with Daryl Jones, who was very raw when he started and showed a lot of improvement his first couple of years before leveling off the last couple of years (possibly due to being dinged up both seasons), Kozma is a complete bust, whereas Jones still has some potential.
We’re not punishing him for not being good at AA at the age of 21, we’re punishing his prospect status because of his complete lack of improvement in nearly every facet of his game since he was drafted. This coming season will be a make or break year for him, and if he starts out slow like he has in his first 3 pro seasons, he’s going to end up in a hole that he won’t be able to climb out of.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
by fourstick on Feb 1, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
harsh
but realistic. I hated the Kozma pick then and still hate it now. I could stomach it if Pete was a plus defender but he’s not.
it is bull shit though to compare him to Porcello
Utter bullshit. People act like 1st Round picks are guaranteed producers. When the vast majority of them fail. What Porcello wanted I would of never given.
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 1, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
Tim Alderson? Aaron Poreda? Andrew Brackman?
I wouldn’t mind having any of those players right now, and they were all on the board when we took Kozma, and our farm system was even more pitching depleted than it is right now at the time of the pick.
They’d all be vying for a rotation spot this season.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
He missed all of 2008 with an injury
I still think he’s still going to be a pretty good pitcher when it’s all said and done — big time arm.
I thought he was closer to the majors since he’s listed as a top 5 prospect of the Yankees in a couple of scouting lists.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Brackman was awful last year
He was topping out in the high-80s at times. Even if he regains his top end velo and figures out how to hit the plate again, he’s probably still a big league reliever given he barely has a 2nd pitch to use most of the time (granted it’s nasty when it’s on) let alone a 3rd.
Not afraid to nitpick
and the injury was known at draft time
brackman was a HUGE risk, and is still nothing close to a sure thing.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
The point isn't that they are guaranteed producers
That’s not what I’m saying at all. Nobody, I mean NOBODY, thought that this kid was anything more than a role player/utility infielder unless he made some HUGE leap in ability once he got into pro ball. It’s also that last time that the Cardinals have used a first round pick on what they deemed a “necessity” rather than just trying to take the best player available on the board.
I’m willing to give Luhnow and Mo a pass on this one because it was their first draft as the heads of the front office. But to say that it wasn’t a bad pick is looking through rose colored glasses.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
fourstick
perhaps I should have said “not old for AA” – in any case, I still have some hope for Kozma though I agree this is a big year for him
Seriously
I hope he took the winter seriously and is ready to take some names this upcoming season. I’m just not real high on it happening. I saw him play in two different series last year and he just didn’t look that part.
Comparatively, we all bitch about Tyler Greene being a bust, yet Tyler Greene has been WAY more productive to this point in the pros as Kozma has. In fact, if you could place Kozma’s plate discipline, the one thing that he does well, with Greene’s defense and power hitting, you’d have a damn good SS.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Yeah I agree
Greene’s been a bit slow moving, but he at least looks like he’s going to be a competent major league middle-infield backup, which is what Kozma’s CEILING looks like right now. Even though I don’t like him that much, and never really have, I’m actually quite excited about his 2009 season in AAA, because it did look like he took a reasonable step forward in his hitting ability; I still think he’s got a slim chance of being an average big-league SS if his defense is as good as advertised (i.e. I think there’s a chance he puts up a similar wOBA to Ryan last year, albeit with much lower OBP and more power).
Kozma, well, I just don’t see him going anywhere really. He’s still marginally a prospect, but there aren’t that many 22-year-olds who do THAT horribly at AA and make it to the big leagues as a starter. I’d say his odds of even MAKING the show right now are <20%.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 2, 2010 7:15 AM EST up reply actions
I think Big Mac
would be a big help to Greene, as he could harness his power hitting ability by getting him to be more selective at the plate. I don’t know how much he’s going to be working with guys not on the big league roster though.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
If he went to College
He would not of even graduated yet. If he left early after his Junior year. It would probably be a good thing if he was in AA by now. High School picks require patience.
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 1, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
How long?
If he stinks it up at AA this year, do I have to wait yet another year? Or do I give Ryan Jackson the reins and see what he can do?
College players usually get 2 full years in the pros to prove that they’re what they were purported to be. Kozma is entering his 3rd full season out of high school, so he should be showing some of the skill at this point that made him a top pick.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I don't understand though
Why you guys just won’t stop bitching about it.
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 1, 2010 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
Who's bitching?
I’m simply saying he hasn’t lived up to expectations, hasn’t shown any improvement in his first three years, and hasn’t even been the plus defender that he was supposed to be.
Why should I defend that pick?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Are you kidding
People bitch about Kozma all the time
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 1, 2010 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
The key here is when he was drafted.
Kozma was a first-round pick, but, even if he lived up to expectations—that is, how he was projected—he was going to be a utility infielder with a below-averge bat. That is not the type of player an organization should be choosing in the first round. It’s almost unfair to blame Kozma. Since the Cardinals drafted him in the first round, he has been shouldered with first-rounder expectations, which he could never fulfill unless he exploded and shattered nearly everyone’s assessments of him pre-draft.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 1, 2010 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed
That’s kind of been my position all along. He was an overdraft by a front office that was running it’s first amateur draft in charge of the organization. It happens. But defending the pick by stating that “he’s not there yet” is simply sugar-coating things.
I’m not blaming Kozma at all, I’m simply stating that he hasn’t gotten any better, so what makes people think that he’s suddenly going to make a giant leap and start looking like the second coming of Jack Wilson, who everyone thought was a good comp for his upside at the time of the draft.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
The Kozma pick didn't occur in Luhnow's first draft.
Luhnow took over the draft in 2005, the year of Rasmus and Greene and McCormick, oh my. So they actually had two drafts already under their belts when they selected Kozma.
Just makes it even worse, in my opinion.
Make way for the Homo Superior.
by the red baron on Feb 1, 2010 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
true
but it was under jocketty’s supervision. and the reason for the jocketty fall out and the reason we have mo around today is because of the division between the lunhows of the org and the jockettys of the org. so i think it’s more accurate to delineate the drafts as jocketty v mo drafts than luhnow v pre-luhnow
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
Ah, I see.
I’m not sure I agree with such a delineation, but I understand the point.
Make way for the Homo Superior.
by the red baron on Feb 1, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
Correct me if I'm wrong,
but Mo was running those drafts as Jock’s right hand man, and Luhnow was director of scouting at the time, but neither had the authority to make an actual selection — Jocketty had final say.
Assuming that’s correct, and I think it is, I think it’s different from giving advice on who to take and then actually being in charge of taking that person. See J.P. Ricciardi, Director of Scouting and Player Development for Oakland, and J.P. Ricciardi, GM of the Blue Jays for a reference into what I’m saying.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I'm not entirely sure on that.
How the actual chain of command worked in those years is somewhat vague. so I wouldn’t want to state incorrect information.
Like I said in response to Prophet above, I see what you’re saying about Jocketty vs. Mozeliak drafts. Personally, I prefer to look at it as Luhnow’s track record entirely, but I base that mostly on not knowing exactly how much autonomy or interference Luhnow might have faced from either GM. I simply don’t know enough to make my own call there.
There is the story of how in 2005, Luhnow considered taking Tyler Greene with the 28th pick instead of Colby and trying to nab Colby 30th until Jocketty stepped in and said he was sure the Marlins would take Colby at 29 if the Cards passed on him. I’m not sure how reliable that account is, though.
I do understand what you’re saying, though.
Make way for the Homo Superior.
by the red baron on Feb 1, 2010 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
Not to be dismissive
but does any of this matter all that much re: Luhnow? If the GM steps in and vetoes/approves picks, Luhnow’s probably not dealing with anything that every other Scouting/Development guy doesn’t have to handle.
Point being: if Walt says no to Porcello (for example), it’s still Luhnow’s responsibility to pick wisely within the parameters he’s given, just like every other guy on draft day.
Context: Luhnow fan.
Agreed
Let’s take an example from a few years before that though as context:
In ‘04, the scouting department had Josh Fields and Phil Hughes at the top of their board. Fields was taken a pick before the Cardinals with Hughes still available. The front office didn’t want Hughes, and asked for another pick. They really didn’t like anyone else in the first round and decided to recommend Chris “effing” Lambert as a high upside guy. We all know how that turned out.
When you have two good candidates and the front office balks at one or both, it’s hard to recommend a player that you don’t believe in for various reasons.
On the flip side, though, when you’re in charge, it’s very easy to fall in love with a player and just pick him without looking at that downside that the pick might have. I’m saying there’s a difference between recommending a pick and being in charge of the draft itself.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
i remember reading that, too
and it’s a good point, but drafting is a bit of a crapshoot. that’s more an aspect of luck than organizational philosophy differences
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
It's okay.
McGwire will teach him how to hit dingers and all of a sudden he’ll be in our top 10 prospects list again.
Agreed
I remember watching the tape of that draft on MLB.com. I was not pleased when The Table’s reaction was a collective, “Um… okay.”
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Feb 1, 2010 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
Please please
No more Porcello musing, it makes me haz a sadface :(
In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his recievers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
In defense of the Cards
I think that there was a need to stock the farm system with the Descalso/Craig/Freese type of guy. You have to walk before you can run, that sort of stuff. That’s still no excuse for the Pete Kozma pick, of course.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 1, 2010 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
Oh.....
I don’t disagree. I didn’t say that in my post, for there was probably a stretch of years where we needed to draft that way. I’m just pointing out that that is probably the biggest reason we don’t have any, or many, big impact players in the system.
I definitely think we’re heading in the right direction though. Hopefully Shelby will work out, and maybe a guy like Jones can refind his stroke this year.
Matt Holliday. Nuff said.
Nice Read DanUp
To me, one of the consequences of signing Holliday is just this, that is, the Cards will need to fill in a lot of positions with low-cost players (especially when AP resigns). Not only the ones DanUp mentioned, but also a replacement down-the-line for Ludwick (Jones, Henley, Craig, ??). Also, in 4 years, the Cards will still be competitive if the successful starting staff is Waino, Miller, Garcia, Lynn, and ??.
Clearly the hope is that Rasmus develops and we end up with 3 high-impact offensive players to put the kids around. With the above starting staff, a home-grown bullpen, and some reasonably productive youngsters, the Cards can afford AP and Matt and be quite competitive for a number of years – if most of the kids work out.
when AP re-signs
that hyphen is important.
by _pistol_ on Feb 1, 2010 6:07 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Nice post
Educate me. Where can we find the “value” of a league average LF, 3B, and 2B. My guess is that they are worth on average as much as Mariano Rivera or Joe Nathan. As you say, said another way, Garcia > Penny who is > $7.5M/YR. Freese >= Polanco = 6M/Yr. I still say the key to this team is to sign o-Dawg for $4M and play him everywhere – literally OR trade Skip for Delmon Young (yes, the twins would do it) and trade for Dan Uggla (not sure what it would take, but assumign Jonathan Sanchez would do it, how about dealers choice between Garcia, Jones, and Lynn..
Anyway – sorry for the rant, theme is – nice post.
HSP: how pissed is Aaron Miles about... *now*?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
how many games do we have to play some form of Bizarro Cardinals
just in the division
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Remains to be seen.
Floppy, Calero and Springer haven’t signed yet.
I'm living in an age that calls darkness light...
come back troy percival
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
you must be right about Jocketty
“I’m happy to be reunited with Aaron, who played a key role in our World Series championship in St. Louis,” said Jocketty, who will be available to the media today at 3:00 p.m. in the field level interview room at Great American Ball Park. “He’s a quality infielder, a quality person and will be an asset to our club.”
warning for large-sized ready-to-go photoshop
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
oops
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
why get another Aaron Miles when you can have Aaron Miles
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Now I know where the Cards
can send all the useless scrappy players that seem to bubble up through our system. Walt, what will you give us for Sugar Shane Robinson?
so hmm the ex-pitchers go to the Brewers, the scrappy players go to the Reds?
this is like us switching our pipeline from ex-Angels to ex-Red Sox…
meanwhile the Astros have the feeder line from the Phillies, and… I’m not sure what the Pirates do, other than supply the Cubs.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Miles's wiki
is updated to reflect the Reds, has a picture of him in a Cubs uni, and is coding-trimmed in A’s green-and-yellow.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Feb 1, 2010 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
reflects his versatility
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Feb 1, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
That's awesome.
I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...
Reds Reporter is just glad to be away from Taveras
The T-Virus is CURED!!!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Now they just have to contend with...
the Milesles.
by mynameistyler on Feb 1, 2010 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
someone there is saying it was just a 'down year'
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
down career...
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 2, 2010 7:19 AM EST up reply actions
you just used
Reds (well, “they”) and contend in the same sentence.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
a common affliction
Neyer believes that the Reds have a serious shot at the WC this year
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Foolish.
Liverpool wouldn’t play in the World Cup. Neyer should stick to baseball.
by mynameistyler on Feb 1, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
What a great nickname for him.
I’m impressed.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 1, 2010 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
now i'm wondering if Penny had a nickname around sbn
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
At this rate they should probably be on the lookout for an eventual Stav infection.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Now I am confused
The A’s just DFA’d Willy Taveras
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 1, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
lolwat
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
wow
A’s designated Tavares and Dana Eveland for assignment 6 minutes ago from web
That’s the A’s are NOT expected to hang onto Tavares for long. 33 minutes ago from web
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
hmm
A’s immediately DFA Taveras and Dana Eveland, claim Steve Tolleson off waivers (Twins). Expect more moves… #OaklandA’s #mlb 9 minutes ago
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
mlbtr
Eveland, 26, is headed elsewhere unless he clears waivers. In 2009 he was terrible in the Majors and lousy at Triple A as well. He joined the A’s in December of ’07 as part of the huge Dan Haren swap with
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
That's weird
There’s a large gap in between the the words “huge” and “swap”. Did something used to be there?
Time for a new sig.
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 1, 2010 9:34 PM EST up reply actions
well it is a blog
I grabbed it right away, it might be a horrendous mistake
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
surprised you haven't heard of him
he was part of the package st louis sent to oakland in the mulder trade. along with daric barton and some fringe-y guys
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
I would pick up Eveland if he fell to us
he’s nothing special but for free, he’d be a useful guy to stash somewhere (even if he had to be used as a long reliever). He put up 168 IP of 4.09 FIP (albeit with a 4.55 xFIP) in 2008, and whilst he sucked in 2009, he wasn’t terrible in AAA and looks more like a victim of the fact the As have too many good pitchers.
He’s certainly no worse than someone like Clayton Mortensen and he’s probably a better 6th/7th SP than PJ Walters, who’ll probably see some starts this year.
I’d like to give him a look.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 2, 2010 7:23 AM EST up reply actions
No they have to pay him $4M
Miles was making $2.7MM. So essentially they just paid $1.3M for Adam Rosales.
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 1, 2010 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
we got Beane'd
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/02/athletics-designate-dana-eveland-for-assignment.html
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Pitchers I'd take over Rich Hill for $1000, Alex.
Think; It's not illegal yet.
by azruavatar on Feb 1, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i think the A's have to send
a player or money to cincy. the a’s did get a mil, i think, from the cubs for taking miles in the first place.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
OUCH
zinged by R.R. sadface.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
well, when you f-up the whole world knows
funny though that they are all talking about dfa’ing miles.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I think the Cubs sent them $1m to take Miles off their hands, though
but there’s also a PTBNL in the deal to the reds. So they’re paying (I think) 0.3m plus a PTBNL for Rosales, who’s basically a meh backup infielder. I suppose that kinda works but I don’t think he’s much (if at all) better than Miles.
maybe they want a guy who can play 3B (Rosales) as his main position to make space for Cardenas at 2B later in the year. I’m not really sure Cardenas is ready, though…
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 2, 2010 7:25 AM EST up reply actions
we do need a backup CF!
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
If, GOB forbid, this happens
I don’t wanna see anyone trying to say that it was a good move by the FO. I don’t wanna see anyone saying it is anything but a terrible move by the FO. I would hope this is something that 100% of VEB’ers could agree upon.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Can Joe Mather play center?
I’m assuming Tony will want someone to bat right handed in the OF and play center every once and a while. Who is that man for us…Ludwick, Mather, other? It’s probably been talked about somewhere…but I haven’t seen it.
Let's contract the T-Virus.
See what I did there?
by mynameistyler on Feb 1, 2010 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
Yes I see, but that doesn't answer my question.
I’m not going to assume that we will get another FA. With the roster we have who will we use to give Colby a break…Holliday, Ludwick, Craig or Holliday, Mather, Ludwick or other.
I will...
prepare a much more serious answer in the future.
by mynameistyler on Feb 1, 2010 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
mather can play center
hey, so can aaron miles.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
actually that might be Boog
it is said that Ryan does have a pitch
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
He can straight curve a whiffle ball...
like nobody’s business.
by mynameistyler on Feb 1, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
Then call up Stavinoha
Have a Stav Infection and T-Virus in the outfield together. Maybe the third part of the OF could be Gonorrhea-wick
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Feb 1, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
is ludwick married?
st. louis is the gonorrhea capital of the u.s. and ludwick is a st. louis cardinal, so chances are good this could be a valid nickname…
wat
Luddy constantly mentions his wife
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Ludwick loves his wife and kickball with schoolchildren
Other than that, it’s anybody’s guess
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I think he played a few innings there for us in 2008.
I’d rather see Mather in CF than Ludwick.
I'm living in an age that calls darkness light...
I think either would be OK on a once-a-week basis.
Ludwick’s probably no worse than Ank. Both have an awesome arm, and a lack of range/good CF routes.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 2, 2010 7:27 AM EST up reply actions
It's rather sad...
…but I forgot all about Joe Mather. How about that. I wonder what his role with the 2010 Cardinals organization will be.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Feb 1, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
forget mather
remember his wrist
(he is alive as per the winter warmup video)
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
he is currently in rehab for his wrist
He will be hopefully healthy by Spring Training
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 1, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Best shape of his life!
I'm living in an age that calls darkness light...
by spants on Feb 1, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Mather played some CF briefly in his stint in 2008
Assuming his wrist is rebuilt (knock on wood) and ready to start making bombs again I don’t see why he couldn’t get a spot start in CF, besides Crazy Tony. I personally have more faith in Ludwick to man a better CF but if things go according to plan, neither of them is going to be getting more than 15 starts in CF. But it all depends on his health.
(knocks on wood again for good measure)
Hardly related, but anybody else having trouble remembering that it’s 2010? I keep thinking last year was 08 and the seasons post-WS are starting to run together. I think that means it’s time for us to win another WS, so I can have another demarkation point.
Some people have their own bowling ball and their own bowling shoes and no friends.
You must be the change you wish to see in the world.
i'd have to disagree
that luddy would man center better than mather. i don’t think the wrist affects his defense, but will he be able to swing the bat is the question.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Lud's extremely small sample size in CF is just above 0 UZR
and Mather’s TZ projection is just below zero (per a December FR post) ( I know, not the same numbers so not comparable but relevant data on these two is few and far between, at least in my cursory search). Neither have enough innings at CF (or for Mather, at any outfield position) to draw an ironclad conclusion about one’s superiority. Looks to be pretty close and then I remember Mather being slightly faster than Luddy so I’ll relent and say Mather could be a better CF than Studwick. Anybody got the speed scores for these two? Mather stills needs to come back healthy and at least be the Joey Bombs of 08
Some people have their own bowling ball and their own bowling shoes and no friends.
You must be the change you wish to see in the world.
i think mather is way faster than luddy
he should race colby. but i’m curious about any numbers anyone has.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Yeah
My eyeballs, which as previously mentioned are unbiased and always accurate under any circumstances, say Mather is a much better defender.
Not afraid to nitpick
Funny.
My eyeballs tell me Mather is also better than Luddy. But in a different way.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Feb 1, 2010 2:38 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Rec'd for golden locks
I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...
now, let's be scientific about it
(wrist obscured!)
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Okay.
Mather still wins because he’s got such great classical features. But Luddy looks MUCH better with hair than without.
I'm living in an age that calls darkness light...
i'm surprised luddy still gets points
maybe it’s the shirt
he seems more classic ballplayer to me, as here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/markhalski/3543043042/ (see if that link works…?)
by the way, there are three more new ones in that set: a Yadi I’d be real happy with if I weren’t still a little sore at him, Matt Holliday and his … seeds, and a Wainwright portrait that just makes me go ‘wow’.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
STILL sore at yadi?
let’s not let this fester into spring training.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I'll get over it
the nice thing about Molinas is there’s always more
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
a word of caution, though
if you’re sore at one molina, they are all sore at you, and that includes momma molina.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
mama molina is the hardest on us all
i don’t think she was happy with him either
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
His hair turns him from replacement-level looks to 1.5-2 LAR.
I'm living in an age that calls darkness light...
man, I'm gonna have to take notes
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
ClemsonGirl
weighs Character and Quirk+ more than I do.
I'm living in an age that calls darkness light...
This is true.
So since Luddy is kind of quirky in my opinion. He already started at about .5 LAR. This picture didn’t really move him up though. If anything it dropped him a little bit because he just looks kind of boring.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
so this is like calculating WAR?
every site has a different equation……
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Pretty much.
There are some industry standards, but they’re weighted differently.
I'm living in an age that calls darkness light...
same formula, different inputs
clemson uses quirk based LAR
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
by prophetjohn on Feb 1, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm still not convinced that is Ryan Ludwick...
Burberry shirt and hair? No chew? What?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 1, 2010 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
it's really Ryan Ludwick okay
http://stltoday.mycapture.com/mycapture/enlarge.asp?image=27559709&event=926515&CategoryID=38580
just like this high-schooler is really Colby Rasmus
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
you know spants...
he really does. I wouldn’t have recognized him if I didn’t know what I was looking at.
"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR
it's now a storage casing
for the bionics. i predict 80 dingers this year.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
next to the rocket pack and Holliday's spare legs?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
so...
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
That guy on the top is Luddy?
Doesn’t look like him at all.
Mather still wins. By a lot too.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
holy shit
it took me like a minute to recognize luddy with hair. i was able to pick out mather much faster and i’ve seen him a fraction as many times
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
I think I found the speed scores
Luddy could run faster
if someone would take that stick out of his ass.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
but maybe he's running from the stick
and just not fast enough to get away?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Feb 1, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
>mckay walks away, whistles nervously<
"It doesn't have to be terribly prolific! Just so that it isn't childish and silly." She reflected. "I prefer stories about squalor." J.D.S.
Then, TLR walks in...
“What’s going on in here? Never mind. I didn’t see anything!”
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 1, 2010 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
Hardly related, but anybody else having trouble remembering that it’s 2010? I keep thinking last year was 08 and the seasons post-WS are starting to run together. I think that means it’s time for us to win another WS, so I can have another demarkation point.
I kinda know what you mean. I have the most trouble remembering which years we’ve had a “surprisingly good” bullpen (2007, when more or less everything else sucked) and one that’s absolutely killed us (2008). I guess 09 was somewhere in between.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 2, 2010 7:28 AM EST up reply actions
Greene in CF?
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
didn't tony put him out there before?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I really, really, really
don’t want to see Tyler Greene in the Loo this year. His bat won’t play at any position.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 1, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
I think you mean the Lou, not the Loo.
I wouldn’t want to see him in the loo, either.
(insert joke about bat)
I'm living in an age that calls darkness light...
you kind of just did
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I was going to be more explicit,
but I refrained. It’s still daylight.
I'm living in an age that calls darkness light...
but it's dark somewhere
or does that only work for drinking?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
"Tyler, what are you doing with that bat? OH DEAR GOD!"
Now I feel dirty.
I'm living in an age that calls darkness light...
the man stew is suddenly very nervous
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I would like to nominate
Portnoy as the official Viva El Birdo’s nickname for Tyler Greene in 2010.
Make way for the Homo Superior.
by the red baron on Feb 1, 2010 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
no complaints here
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Feb 1, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
sounds like a complainer to me.
"It doesn't have to be terribly prolific! Just so that it isn't childish and silly." She reflected. "I prefer stories about squalor." J.D.S.
by tom s. on Feb 1, 2010 5:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm going to rec both of these.
Make way for the Homo Superior.
by the red baron on Feb 1, 2010 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
I was very intrigued with him last season.
Because of his AAA numbers, but also his five-toolsiness while with St. Louis. I still can’t believe that we left his speed off the playoff roster.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 1, 2010 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
That's because he strikes out. A lot.
Or, at least he did while in St. Louis.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 1, 2010 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
And in AAA.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 1, 2010 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
i think he could easily adjust to MLB
and be a league average-ish hitter with plus-plus defense. from what i’ve seen, he’s not much behind boog as a defender
his MLE and all the projection systems put him a tick below average with the bat, but even if he doesn’t surpass those, he’s right about as valuable as boog with a slightly better bat and slightly worse glove
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
Case
I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...
He makes plays that look like a created player from MLB Triple Play.
He has an absolute cannon for an arm.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 1, 2010 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
Another
Not bad here either. And here’s another similar play.
This is a pretty sick stop, too, at third this time.
I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...
yeah
his arm is pretty special. He’s got a great third baseman’s arm at SS.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 2, 2010 7:32 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, I have. . .
Guys who strike out roughly 25% of the time in AAA generally have trouble hitting at an acceptable level in the majors, particularly if they don’t walk enough. Granted, the increased plate discipline was nice to see in Memphis for TGreene last season, but let’s be honest, he’s still walking less than 10% of the time in his best plate discipline year.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 1, 2010 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
Brendan Ryan's 2009 Walk Rate:
5.6%. Do I want a 10% walk rate from every one of our eight position players? Yes, absolutely. At least 10%. But, we are talking about a position where defense is at a premium and power is scarce. If you could give me Brendan Ryan with more power, even if the outs he makes are Ks, I’d take it. I think that could be T-Greene’s ceiling.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 1, 2010 4:44 PM EST up reply actions
I was talking about his minor league walk rate. . .
Might TGreene turn it around and become a productive major league player? Sure.
Is he likely to do so, given his minor league track record? No.
It’s a pretty short list of guys who have become major league hitters with the K problems in the minors that TGreene has had, and they all had serious power, not just good-for-a-SS power.
Player. . . career MiL K rate. . . career MiL BB rate
TGreene. . . 25.3%. . . . 7.8%
Dunn. . . . . . .18.5%. . . 15.0%
Reynolds. . . 23.5%. . . 9.9%
Cust. . . . . . . .25.8%. . . 19.7%
Howard. . . . . 27.2%. . . 11.5%
Reynolds is the best hope for Ryan, but Reynolds plate discipline actually improved a bit in the high minors.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 1, 2010 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
There is a big difference for shortstops, though.
The expectations in terms of offense are nowhere near as high as they are at either first base, a corner outfield slot, or even third base. Also, none of the players you list are even remotely as good defensively at their position as T-Greene is, IMO. When you take T-Greene as a plus defensive shortstop and add in, say, 15-20 HRs, even if his walk rate is 7% and his K rate is 25%, he is still a useful player provided he hits for a high enough average. That’s why Brendan Ryan is still valuable even while walking 5.6% of the time last season. Plus defense at a premium position is important.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 1, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
i don't think
he has that kind of power ceiling
maybe like 8-15 HR?
still, it’s all about his glove with me. anyhting about a .300 wOBA is icing on the cake
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
Are you assuming that. . .
he will ONLY strikeout 25% of the time in the show?
I think that’s a dangerous assumption. My point is that minor league numbers translate less well to the majors when you have a high strikeout rate. The exceptions to the rule are if you have a high walk rate or plus-plus power, neither of which Mr. Greene is blessed to have.
Enough with the sabermetrics. . . from a scouting perspective, guys with holes in their swing, a swing that is too long, a proclivity to chase bad pitches, or two or three of the above, will get abused by major league pitchers. Granted, it was his first taste of the show, but a 27.6% walk rate and a 3.5% walk rate in the majors last season, doesn’t so a whole lot to inspire confidence when coupled with his underwhelming minor league peripherals.
A good glove at SS will mask a lot, but I don’t believe that it will mask Mr. Greene’s likely contributions at the major league level.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 1, 2010 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
I am not ready to write him off based on 116 PAs.
Your argument has been a broader one than that, but citing to the rates from that many PAs really isn’t all that convincing to me. What’s I’m saying is that I expect his K rate to even out at around 23-26% and his walk rate to even out at 5-7% and that, with his defense, that probably makes him viable as a shortstop. I could be wrong, though.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 1, 2010 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
Depending on what he does. . .
in the 74-77% of the time that he doesn’t strike out, using your hypothetical, I agree with you, that he would have his uses.
I just think he will strike out more that your hypothetical and walk less on the ML level, and do less with the bat when he doesn’t K. That’s all I’m trying to say.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 1, 2010 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
Although his OBP will reduce this advantage
we also can’t forget that Greene looks like a pretty amazing baserunner. That has some value too, maybe as much as half a win or so across a full season (even with sucky OBP). He had a 31 to 3 SB:CS ratio last year in AAA. That’s borderline superhuman.
In his pro career so far he has 97 steals and 14 CS for an 87% success rate. I can’t (off the top of my head) think of a single MLB player who’s rocking that sort of stealing aptitude.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 2, 2010 7:37 AM EST up reply actions
Hardly. . .
If Boog can put up a 2../340/4xx line while playing the kind of defense that he played last season, then he is a very good major league baseball player.
My point is that Greene’s minor league peripherals make it very unlikely that he will be able to put up even the modest offensive numbers that Boog has on the ML level.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 1, 2010 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
i think it's absurd
to expect better offensive numbers from boog than greene
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
Other than the fact that. . .
Boog has put up better offensive numbers in the majors than Greene to date, right?
Yes, it’s a small sample size for Greene, and yes, Boog is 2 years older.
But absurd? P’shaw. Methinks you overstate your case.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 1, 2010 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
well, you pretty much said it
small sample size. i can’t feel intellectually honest about evaluating a guy based on 100 PAs
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
Ah, but I'm also evaluating him. . .
based on his minor league record. Actually, I’m mostly evaluating him based on his minor league record. I hope you’re right, BTW. Having a first-round draft pick bust is never good.
FWIW, I actually like TGreene better than Kozma, so there’s that. . .
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 1, 2010 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
MLEs, bill james, CHONE and marcel
also evaluate him primarily on his MiL numbers. and they all say that his 2010 offensive numbers will be right about in line with boog’s 2009. btw, boog was worth 3.2 WAR in 2009.
there’s a lot of leeway in greene’s offense there to be a valuable MLB SS. a great defensive SS is pretty valuable. valuable enough to cover up for what would be pretty bad offensive numbers at any other position
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
Are you subscribed to Bill James Online?
If so, is it worth it?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 1, 2010 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
i'm not
but it probably is. if for nothing else than for the +/- system
i think that’s where it’s available
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
i am, and don't really think it's worth it
he almost never puts up articles and there isn’t much useful info that isn’t available for free elsewghere, except for +/-.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
started out $3/month
but they recently upped it to $9.99, which is ridiculous.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
wow, yeah
no way i’d pay that for a secondary defensive metric
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
The +/- is why I was going to subscribe.
And, I was looking at it as a $3/month subscription. When did they up it to $10 and why?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
dunno, but that's what gets charged to my CC.
maybe I need to call and ask.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
Him vs. Us
I think that he believes Greene’s floor to be more likely achieved than Green’e ceiling or somewhere in between those two whereas you and I believe that Greene’s ceiling or somewhere in between is more likely than his floor. That providing context, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see Greene post a .325 OBP or so, but with higher SLG than Boog, while playing comparative defense.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 1, 2010 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
i think greene's ceiling
is arounf .340 – .350 wOBA
his floor is probably about .300
anything falling within that range would be passable for a SS with his defensive abilities
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
Right.
I almost exactly agree with you. And that is why you and are the tag-team in this handicap match over whether T-Greene may be a viable MLB SS against someone who believes the contrary. In fact, SSCF might even agree with your assessment of Greene’s ceiling and floor. He just finds anything but the floor far less probable because of Green’e K rate.
For what it’s worth, I am also one of those beating the drum for Boog as starting SS before the 2008 season based on his offense in the 2007 season and his defensive reputation. So much so that my friends and I adopted the “Izsuckis” nickname for Izturis and made him our villain of the season. So, I tend to like players who are whizes (Wizards?) with the glove up the middle, even if they face a steep MLB learning curve with the bat.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 1, 2010 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
on Bleed Cubbie Blue a while back
I recall reading thru a game thread, and somebody referred to Izturis as “Izterrible”, which still makes me chuckle.
charles barkley calls him that
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
have you
seen tg in person?
if so, i think your opinion might be a little less optimistic
maybe not, but i see him with a long road ahead to get a decent obp
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
I am lost
how does seeing TG in person make much of a difference, unless of course you are a professional scout?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
it's different
his swing looks more awkward in person than it does on tv
i don’t think you need to be a pro scout to see more in person
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
I've seen it in person
I don’t think it looks all that awkward. I just don’t think the guy knows what to look for at the plate.. Of course I’ve never bought into the awkward looking swing argument anyway.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Mac will have him hitting dingers in no time flat
I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...
I saw him in person, and he's a really good fielder.
I’m not thrilled with his approach at the plate, but I expect dinger camp to help him.
I'm living in an age that calls darkness light...
yes he is
if he was as smooth and controlled at the plate
he’d be a bigtime player
but it’s not, which is why he is where he is
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
It's not his swing that troubles me.
He just seems a bit overmatched.
I'm living in an age that calls darkness light...
I think it is a beautiful swing
especially this one
T. Greene’s problem is that he just never seems to know what is coming to the plate.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Nah.
Boog has a career walk rate of 6.5%, but only strkes out 13.8% of the time. He dislikes players that aren’t three-true-outcome players because they don’t walk.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 1, 2010 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
Pretty much, yes. . .
I don’t even mind Ks at the ML level. I don’t care how a hitter makes an out, as long as he avoids doing it often enough.
At the minor league level, though, a high K-rate is a flashing red light.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 1, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
I've heard this before as a rule of thumb
and it seems intuitive, but are there any studies that back it up? Surely someone has looked at this in detail.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
His 116 PA in the majors are meaningless
As are his strikeouts and walks in isolation. Take a look at the whole package for god sakes.
well, he's had an MLE OPS over .552 exactly once
in his milb career, and that was a slg-heavy .713, in ~400 PA’s, in his second go-around at AAA.
It’s fun to watch him play defense, though, and I’m really rooting for him…
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
I'm not saying he's a good hitter
But just quoting his K and BB rates is stupid and doesn’t mean anything.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 1, 2010 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
A SLG-heavy .713 OPS from a plus defensive shortstop is still probably about a league average player.
I realise he’s been a slow mover and his AAA numbers may be less instructive given his high K rate and the fact he’s older than most of his peers at that level, but it’s pretty clear that if his 2009 season is indicative of what he can in the majors, as he’s coming into what should be his prime, that he’s at the very least a good backup MIF option, and probably going to have a shot at being an average SS.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 2, 2010 7:42 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly....
I think he very well could be similar to this guy, albeit with a few more homers. I would have loved to have him on my team in his prime.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Mike Bordick is so old. . .
that baseball-reference doesn’t have his minor league K-rate, but I will bet one million internet dollars that his minor league K-rates were nowhere near Mr. Greene’s.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 2, 2010 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
You're probably right
although, K-Rate isn’t the end all, be all of analysis, as multiple people have been pointing out here. He could still strike out 25% of the time in the big leagues, but if he gets his walk rate up to 7% or so and is able to post an ISO near .200 he’ll be a valuable SS at the big league level despite the strikeouts, because, like Mr. Bordick, he’s an excellent defender.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
And my point, which many seem to be missing. . .
is that a K-rate of 25% in the minors portends a worse K-rate in the majors (and all sorts of other bad stuff, too).
I agree about his defense, and I hope I’m wrong.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 2, 2010 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
That's very true, and I think I generally agree up to a point
I still think something like Cameron Maybin’s major league career so far is possible, though – 30% K rate and 8% BB rate, without overwhelming power (.401 SLG so far) and he’s been only slightly below average in about half a season’s plate appearances so far.
Obviously, the list of guys with a 30% K-rate and a <10% BB rate who’re decent hitters is pretty low, and it’s by no means clear he can even walk at a 7-8% rate despite his breakout 2009 in AAA. However, CHONE projects him to be a 7.3% BB, 28.2% K guy with a 0.692 OPS (.310 wOBA) which, with a VERY pessimistic defensive projection (-5 runs) makes him a 1-WAR guy in 439 PAs. If you give him another 150 PAs (i.e. make him full time) and assume he’s a better defender than they suggest (+5 runs doesn’t seem unreasonable, and I’m sure he’s at least average) he moves into the 1.5-2 WAR range.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 2, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
In 5 years, he's had one year of, at best, marginal success.
And you think that one year is a “pretty clear” example of what to expect in the future?
i want him to be successful, and I’d accept a league-average player for league minimum for 2 years as successful, but a single minor league year in which a guy is marginally successful is a LONG way from “clearly” indicative of MLB success bound.
At best, greene has to be considered a high risk player with medium potential.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
Reynolds hits balls really, really far. If you’ve never been to BOB, that is a long, long way away.
Not afraid to nitpick
Reynold led baseball in avg distance of HR with a total of 415.7 ft
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 1, 2010 5:16 PM EST up reply actions
And when he doesn't hit home runs
He drills the ball to the tune of a .348 BABIP in now 1483 ABs.
Not afraid to nitpick
i didn't think HR's counted toward BABIP
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 1, 2010 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
It doesn't
I’m saying he hits the ball hard even when he isn’t dropping bombs.
Not afraid to nitpick
nobody drops bombs like troy glaus
he and bobby cox – that’s gonna be a lotta bombs.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
If I may spin slightly off your point
I believe this was the longest HR hit last year. He really crushed that.
I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...
what is it with Lidge and physically flinching when he yields a homer?
I wonder if he got hit with a batted ball once in the minors or something and hasn’t gotten over it. Or maybe he’s just expecting Reynolds to not swing, or to swing and miss.
Or maybe it’s just human to instinctively duck when you hang a slider that badly, and the only reason I noticed is cause it’s Lidge….
He never flinched before 10/17/2005.
Time for a new sig.
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 1, 2010 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
someone cue the unicorn pic
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
wasn't there one with Albert?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I don't know....
I just saw this today and wanted to share. I would assume that there is not a picture of Albert with 2 unicorn hand puppets……yet.
Where’s vexed?
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
no it's a full-sized unicorn and Albert
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
the one he's riding?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
that's the one
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
oh ya......
that’s out there……I still want to see that shopped to Albert
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
where the hell is vexed at?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
dinger camp?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
the one with the crazy dude
with 2 unicorns up there….shopped with this….lol
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I'm no vexxedtechie but here's my attempt
by CodyG on Feb 1, 2010 11:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
brilliant!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
don't we need the floating head of Strauss in there somewhere?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
no the unicorns repel him
that’s their job
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
is that
a ginger
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
unless Colby's a two-timing whisperer
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
aside: this is why people should do fanshots
see, now we can’t find this stuff. and it’s an image so it’s likely not searchable.
good luck typing in “Albert Pujols”…
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
actually
i always thought this was one of his more unflattering pics
he looks kinda fat. like a more ridiculous carlos lee
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
what did you say?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
clemsongirl, you are not above a good flagging
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Just because y'all can't admit that perhaps the camera angle makes Albert look fat
doesn’t mean I am going to be afraid to say that it is an unflattering picture.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
I think it's more the face he's making.
His chest looks huge!
I'm living in an age that calls darkness light...
that's the one where the catcher goes d'oh
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
y'know
if any other player in the world did that after a home run, i would think he was an asshole
but when albert does it…BAD ASS
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
actually I think he got heat for that one.
he said it was unwise, after.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I love the bat toss at the end
“My work is done here…I’m going to circle the bases and go home”
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
His shirt puffs out in the stomach region.
I think it may be the way he is slightly bending over.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
what did you say?
(it’s always repeated, presumably for effect)
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
to me I see
this in context of this moment, when he is so confident and sure of himself as he takes that glorious first stride. I am just saying watching him swing is like watching David Thompson/Dr. J take off, or Barry Sanders stop and go.
reposted for width.....
nice job
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
by RiverRat on Feb 2, 2010 12:01 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I'm not the *
who posted it in a subthread…..My idea any way. You were just the print shop.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
that's great
unless people think they look like pom-poms.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Also...I've already
uploaded this to photobucket and made it my own. Sorry.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
What part of "shortstop" and "overall value" do you not understand?
His walk and strikeout rates are irrelevent in themselves. As a +5 defender at short, IMO, he needs to be a .305 wOBA hitter to be league average overall. Any futz can manage that.
Tyler Greene by Total Zone Ratings
Seems to have rather large ranges in his defensive levels
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 1, 2010 9:18 PM EST up reply actions
Total Zone rating is not going to be super accurate for minor leaguers
Both due to measurement and sample size error (minor leaguers play a shorter season than major leaguers).
I look forward to the Tyler Greene cycle next year
2 Ks, 1 triple, 1 stolen base, and 1 guy gunned out at first from shallow left field.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Feb 1, 2010 9:21 PM EST up reply actions
is he stealing first, or home, in that example?
;)
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
I tend to agree that K rate
is irrelevant at the major league level. BB rate is not, of course, as its one of the most important stats out there.
At the minor league level, however, a high K-rate is contraindicative of success as a major league hitter, unless accompanied by a high walk rate.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Feb 2, 2010 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
Question:
What are Wainwright’s option year salaries, if the Cards pick them up?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
9M in '12 and 12M in '13
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
gorgeous contract
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
plus a lot of caveats
- 08:$0.5M, 09:$2.6M, 10:$4.65M, 11:$6.5M, 12:$9M club option, 13:$12M club option
- replaced 1 year/$0.448M deal for 2008 renewed 3/4/08 ($0.246M in minors)
- 2012, 2013 options guaranteed with top 5 finish in 2010 or 2011 Cy Young vote
- 2012 club option increases to $10M with 2010 or 2011 Cy Young
- club must exercise 2012 and 2013 options at same time
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
The key one being
that they have to pick up both options at the same time, making it a two year option essentially.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
hopefully
he just wins the cy young in ’10 or ’11 so it takes any guesswork out of the equation
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
much as i love waino
i’d rather have the flexibilty and the extra $1MM in 2011
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
did you mean 21MM
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
no
2012 club option increases to $10M with 2010 or 2011 Cy Young
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
ok...gotcha
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
a two year-21MM contract for a cy young winner seems brilliant
i’d be ok with it all
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
true
but a two year option for any pitcher sounds better than a guaranteed two years. regardless of whether or not the BBWAA recognizes him as the best pitcher in the league
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
I'd rather he wins it both years.
Time for a new sig.
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 1, 2010 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
d'oh!
me=* for not reading all comments b4 posting.
Time for a new sig.
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 1, 2010 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
Looks like the Twins resigned Mauer
What will Pujols get in comparison to Mauer? Looks like hie is going to get a 10 year deal. Mauer is younger also though
link?
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
i was kind of waiting
to see what this would turn out to be. seems like it would be a nice comparable for pujols to work on.
so, it’s 10 years, but that only takes him through age 37. maybe we can get pujols to go 8? that would put him at 38 or 39 depending on when he is extended
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
ye ol' SI *
thinks it will be a 7-8 yrs, 150-180M
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Which contract?
The Albert Pujols Extension?*
- This is going to be the name of my band. Our first album will be entitled, “$300 million.”
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 1, 2010 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
Mauer's
I am gonna put my guess in as 8/175
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
there are reports that the 10 year contract is not accurate
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
The Twins denied the report.
But, they are optimistic that a deal will get done.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 1, 2010 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
I am just saying that reports are going nuts all over Twitter
that it might not be a 10 year deal
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
To clarify.
I didn’t mean to say that the Twins denied the length reported; rather, that the Twins’ denial was to the report that a deal was agreed to in principle.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 1, 2010 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
Well I just hope it happens
I have quite a few friends that are Twins fans, and this would make them happy.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
i think 9y/$27m, but mauer's gonna add a novel provision.
$1M for each time he makes the GM’s missus swoon.
"It doesn't have to be terribly prolific! Just so that it isn't childish and silly." She reflected. "I prefer stories about squalor." J.D.S.
by tom s. on Feb 2, 2010 12:50 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
If only Pat Neshek could grow sideburns.
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
i'd love that
if he gets <= teixeira i will kiss a ….
i don’t fucking know what i’ll kiss, but it’ll be something that helps make my point
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
Mauer is a Catcher too
Although they can DH him to keep him from getting too beat up.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
It's a sad day for Yankees fans.
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
Thank God they won the WS this year.
Can you imagine the pain after a 10 year championship draught?
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
They can wipe away their tears with their WS trophy
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
I don't know.
With all those pennants, it seems like a dangerous thing to do. Might put an eye out…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 1, 2010 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
I'm watching Colby HR highlights
It’s fun seeing how far they go. He hit a lot of bonafide BOMBS last year.
Here are the no-doubters Clobby hit in 2009:
One
Two
Three
Four (walkoff)
Five (walkoff)
Six
Seven
Eight (Lilly high FB)
Nine (into the river)
Ten (first career, upper deck shot)
Watching the outfielders’ reactions on a lot of these shots is pretty great.
I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...
by mojowo11 on Feb 1, 2010 5:11 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
my favorite
is the one at petco (?) where ank also hit one almost as far but all dan and al could talk about was how ank’s was one of the longest in the history of the park. um, hey guys. colby’s went farther
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
my favorite was the one against the Nats, at Busch
mostly because I was there, but also because I swore that thing was at least a 500ft shot.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Colby had the second-highest
average home run distance in all of baseball last year, right behind Mark Reynolds and right ahead of a guy by the name of Albert. You can find this and dozens of other amazing facts in the 2010 Maple Street Press Cardinals Annual, available soon.
Make way for the Homo Superior.
by the red baron on Feb 1, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
I was just at the site a few weeks ago and wondering if there would be a Cardinal one this year.
I was worried because a few MLB 2010 editions were up, but the Cardinals one was not. Very exciting.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Feb 1, 2010 5:17 PM EST up reply actions
I didn't get one last year
But now that I’m all employed and stuff, I’ll get one this year for sure. Looking forward to it.
I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...
That doesn't seem true per
Now Rasmus isn’t on this list due to not having enough home runs. But Pujols is not 3rd of the list either
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 1, 2010 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
Minor correction
Rasmus averaged 411 feet which if qualified for the Golden Sledgehammer would have ranked 8th.
Not afraid to nitpick
would have tied him with Albert
I wonder if RB meant to say in the NL, on the Golden Sledgehammer list only two NL hitters are in the top 8, Reynolds and Pujols
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
Yeah, pardon me.
National League. My bad, everybody.
It’s correct in the MSP Annual, I swear. I fact-checked and everything.
Make way for the Homo Superior.
by the red baron on Feb 1, 2010 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
How have we not talked about this point before today?
You would think in a off season something like this would of come up before. At least I don’t remember the conversation.
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 1, 2010 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, I gotta save some stuff for the paying customers, don't I?
Make way for the Homo Superior.
by the red baron on Feb 1, 2010 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
maybe he meant the NL
In that case it is true. Reynolds, Rasmus, Pujols
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 1, 2010 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
Also, what about Std Vs True?
Std is
The estimated distance in feet the home run would have traveled if it flew uninterrupted all the way down to field level, and if the home run had been hit with no wind, in 70 degree air at sea level. Standard distance factors out the influence of wind, temperature and altitude, and is thus the best way of comparing home runs hit under a variety of different conditions.
if RB was using true distance it may be different
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
I had forgotten how brutal the walk-off celebrations were.
Geez.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
boxing instructors.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
hm, that's strange
I saw Colby smile after that first walkoff job.
Maybe it is the alcohol talking, but I am feeling unrealistically optimistic regarding a bucking bronco breakout year for Colby. Yee haw.
I’m guessing that the kryptonite-esque bug he had last year sapped him of his superhero powers and given his improved health he will be sending singing line-drives into the gaps and belting homers like mad. I also predict an unassisted quadruple play from center field- the first ever.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Feb 1, 2010 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
Colby only smiled after walk-offs, talking to Shannon, or talking about Mark DeRosa
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Feb 1, 2010 8:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Number five on your list
the game that wouldn’t go away is something of a memory for me.
I went back to the US for a spell this past summer and that was the last game I watched on TV before coming back to China. Because it was the last game I would watch that wasn’t in the AM that year I was determined to finish it. A nice ending.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Feb 1, 2010 8:12 PM EST up reply actions
there's a fanpost of yadi's pickoffs
I vote for this to go all out as well
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
if you go to Colby Rasmus's hittracker page
It is essentially the same thing. But with more info
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 1, 2010 9:06 PM EST up reply actions
killjoy
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
He's a handsome fellow.
Nice swings.
Time for a new sig.
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 1, 2010 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
USAToday's take on the Cardinals org.
Time for a new sig.
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Feb 1, 2010 5:33 PM EST reply actions
well, that article mentions greene backing up colby
mo says we’re a pretty good team, especially compared to this time last year.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
solid report
from a national pub. Nice to see. But funny how they skipped over the bullpen.
This happens daily.....
I’m still at work, but my guess is that most people aren’t and now that they are on their own time, VEB takes a backseat.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
You're the annoying overachiever at work aren't you
Or the boss
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
i'm still at work, too
until 9pm
what am i supposed to do? work?
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
let's not get crazy now!
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
was it you
was gonna call in tired for four months?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
when i'm overly tired
i forget shit too.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Anybody else watching
the Prime 9 about the best outfield arms? By far my favorite of the series so far.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
where's clemente rank?
must be mostly rf’ers?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Hmmmmmm
Clemente, Vlad, Buhner….I really don’t know after that.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Buhner wasn't on the list.
Dwight Evans, Mr. Larry Walker, Dawson, Jose Guillen,Ichiro, can’t remember the other 2 right now.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
hey, how about ank
at least for a day.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I was hoping they'd have
shown a highlight of that game, just because both throws were insane and obviously in the same game.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
sniff. is our little Boog growing up?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
it's about the third one I've read in three weeks, yeah
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
the part where he shows up on time is kind of huge, knowing Boog
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I know!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
we give him a hard time
but I hope he has a monster season, even better than last year. couldn’t happen to a nicer guy.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I also know!
I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...
i was gonna say
step out of the box, but figured this must be something else.
also, by my understanding, a quick pitch in that context could be, but isn’t necessarily (or often) a balk.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
i googled it and you're right
it’s only a balk if there is a runner on, otherwise it’s just called a ball. but isn’t a regular balk with the bases empty called a ball?
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
don't get all technical on me
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Andy Pettitte!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I may convert some people's names into swear words
and see if that takes.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
you mean *?
too late, that one’s your fault.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
It's actually quite
humorous how * gets used around here. It’s like watching a child grow.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
that's how all memes are
except most kids are not lured into vans with Fredbird
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
for the record
I am against kids being lured into vans
leave that stuff to robots
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
is that because he wanted to injure some kids
at a hotel in springfield once? i’m lost here.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
it was the plastic bag mini-meme, i believe
classic. came after the This is a picture of a wizard hallmark
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Speaking of tough to find.....
that original thread is a bitch to dig up…SBN doesn’t search photo captions.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
it was a Nats game
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
right but I'm gonna be
drunk one night this season wanting to link to it…and all I’m going to remember is “this is a picture of a wizard”……luckily I’ve reposted that pic with those exact words for later use.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
this is why I am exacting and sh*
I mean, strauss.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Shasshat?
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Feb 1, 2010 11:57 PM EST up reply actions
I need to remember the alt keys for other star symbols...
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
maybe you should stay in your finding-ethics thread for now.......
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
yes, ethics are exactly like Blue's Clues.
/random
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Not True
as far as I can tell ethics lack the distinguishing characteristic of a large pawprint on the right decision(I have no idea how that asshole Steve keeps his job, the kids always have to yell at him repeatedly to help him see said pawprint)
exactly
kids know what ethics are
adults are dumb
so in a perfectly ethical world, kids would yell at adults till they get it right
then everyone sings.
also, Steve is not dead.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
like
get lidged
strauss, no
motherbacke
pettitte!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I mean like does anybody know of pitchers who do it a lot
The limits of when it remains legal, etc.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 1, 2010 11:19 PM EST up reply actions
i think it's kind of frowned upon in the bigs
especially by the umps, because if the batter isn’t set, then they aren’t either, likely.
i could give you a bunch of names of little leaguers, but doubt that would help.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
It is illegal, but I can't recall ever seeing it called
I’m just wondering which pitchers do it a lot (so far I have Grienke and Buerlhe) and what is the best way to be effective at it.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 1, 2010 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
Petites pickoff move is the
best balk in baseball…..not a quick pitch, but the biggest non balk call out there. How he pulls that off may be relevant to you.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Naw, this is for a Pitch f/x study
So I only have data for pitches.
by vivaelpujols on Feb 1, 2010 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
which tentacle
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I'm not sure how that would help.
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
HAZEL WHERE THE FUCK IS MY CARPENTER SHIT!?!?!?!
by vivaelpujols on Feb 2, 2010 12:02 AM EST up reply actions
Fuck?!
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
Don't worry, TPG didn't send his over either.
theenks!
by vivaelpujols on Feb 2, 2010 12:45 AM EST up reply actions
Oh.
can I email it to you anyway?
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
screw you bitch!
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
check out my ll link in the bottom of this post, i need to bitch
also, i have something cool to tell you in email.
Brad Penny has been known to do a quickpitch
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
i've never seen that on pitch f/x
oh…sorry.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
if that's the case
I propose a mandatory changing of VEP’s name. Can I get a second?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
on the ground...?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Feb 2, 2010 12:08 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i'd say the best way to be effective
is to do it against batters who, once they step in the box, still have some routine to go through and aren’t really looking at the pitcher immediately.
on the other hand, are they going to enforce the time-limit between pitches?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
they keep fining Pap but it doesn't take.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
It's rarely called with nobody on base.
And it’s rarely called with runners on because pitchers focus on coming to a complete stop to hold runners and to mix up their time to the plate.
It was called a lot more back in the 80’s than it is now, probably due to the higher number of stolen bases and base stealers.
I would look at Buerhle for sure, as someone else mentioned. I can’t think of too many more pitchers right now that work really quickly. Carp and WW work fast, but they don’t quick pitch.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
so not in the AL....?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Can VEB help me to
complete a business ethics paper? I mean if I wanted ethics I would have been a philosophy major. I received a C in Logic and a C in Ethics class so the only avenues open to me were Marketing or BBWAA I went marketing, but now they are throwing this crap at me.
we called those white lies
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
There's also a big difference between acknowledge it's unethical
and deciding to act ethically…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
I think if you don't pursue the truth
Than you are just taking the simple route, The weak route
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 2, 2010 12:49 AM EST up reply actions
The engineering ethics questions on the FE were awesome.
It was totally one of these things is not like the other… They brought the same smile the written drivers test option of accelerate quickly did.
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
classic
btw this reminds me of the time VEB expounded on child care.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
The, uh, ethics of, uh, business…can be summarized in…Yeah, um…See…Ethics are, uh…You know, the… the thing about ethics…Aagh! That question was not fair! That was not in the reading.
*pulls gun, tackled by revolting blob*
by mattyp on Feb 1, 2010 11:56 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
I would bet that
the Madison Hotels would have been more successful under Dickhead Eric than under Crazy Carl, sort of a Robert Nardelli – Jeff Immelt decision
Ethics depend on perspective
Life is complex. It is not difficult to choose between right and wrong. It is difficult to choose between which is the better wrong.
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 2, 2010 12:23 AM EST up reply actions
Is this going to be another 250-comment night?
I went to bed at like 12:30 last night and woke up at 8 to like 250 new comments!
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
for us to know
and you to find out.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
on the other hand
if you go to bed, you might get lucky and get a humorous send-off
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Possibly
Did anyone else notice that some of the comments from last night were not there in the morning?
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 2, 2010 12:24 AM EST up reply actions
You clearly missed Flim's comment.
I have no regrets.
I'm living in an age that calls darkness light...
What happens in after hours
stays in after hours….as long as RB is there.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
hopefully this was after I went to bed
cuz I dont remember a terrible flim comment
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
i was helping men deal with the harsh realities of life
Plus, it is your fault
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 2, 2010 12:42 AM EST up reply actions
oh, this had to do with the pills
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
For the record,
I took the whole little subthread down. In hindsight, it probably went a bit beyond what even I can justify as just late night hilarity. No biggie, but I figured it was best to kill the thing before it saw the light of day.
Now let us never speak of this again.
Make way for the Homo Superior.
by the red baron on Feb 2, 2010 12:59 AM EST up reply actions
Possibly.
I haven’t yet decided how far down the rabbit hole I wish to go here.
Make way for the Homo Superior.
by the red baron on Feb 2, 2010 1:08 AM EST up reply actions
well, they exist
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
They could tell you,
but then they’d have to kill you.
Or more likely the subthread in which they killed you.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
told*
Stupid phone not notifying me I had a new e-mail telling me my 8 AM was cancelled.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Damn!
305 new comments!
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Feb 2, 2010 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
here's a fun highlight reel
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?topic_id=7741800&c_id=stl
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
disagree
no Boog?
really?
really?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
ok, I'm angry now.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
not anymore.
not when I can think of a dozen of Boog’s catch-and-throws better than most of those infield plays.
oh that’s right. MLB doesn’t even have a third of those in their video archives.
still. rage. where’s the B_g Mac homer? where’s Adam’s gem against Colorado? where’s Yadi’s pickoff out of the dirt in Chicago? I could go on. only half those plays are what I’d recall from 2009.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
i still thought it was a fun highlight reel
i didn’t say it was the ten best moments of 2009…
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
MLB claiming it was
makes me too angry to have fun. the context sucks, and it can’t be separated from the reel.
it’s not quite on “he’s Jeter so obviously his plays are the best” but it’s in the same neighborhood.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
individually, sure.
as a highlight reel, it’s one more shot of idiots rewriting our history.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
and it's not like boog doesn't have a lot of highlights on mlb, their search algorithms just suck
just search his name, finally find one that he is in and the click his name under video tags and you can find a bunch
for instance:
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=6932729
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=6625463
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=6242477
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=6206575
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=6005541 <— pimp
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=5792095
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=5648369
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=5636037
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=5567897
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=5495269
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=5493731 <— probably his best play all year
this is only halfway through his page of highlights and only counting his defensive highlights
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
what the hell?
some of those have commercials. Gah!
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
this is one is so badass
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=4336037
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
i suppose k-bot?
had to be early in the year, because i saw that play live watching on mlb.tv and it seems like 2008 to me.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
another
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=5645633
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
here's a pretty cool video of
some of Albert’s 2009 highlights. Shhh!!! Don’t tell MLB there copyrighted material on Youtube. LINK
What was more impressive....
the play Apu made @ 25sec, or the fact that the diner was at the bag 2 seconds later?
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
OK....this was on the same page
show yourself…… “Well I wasn’t married I was staying with my parents”
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
He's an idiot and faced the stare of Apu
for being an idiot. He’s lucky it wasn’t Lugo…or GOB forgive Carp.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
can i just say, Kyle Lohse agrees with me
A Twins’ product who spent six years with that franchise, Lohse could emerge from spring training as the Cardinals Game 3 starter for the regular season. That would also ticket him for a start at the opening of Target Field, the Twins’ new open-air stadium that the Cardinals will help debut in an exhibition game. Asked if he might shoot for the afternoon start in Minneapolis, Lohse said: "It will be, what, 30 degrees?"
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
above or below zero...?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
...in Minnesota?
doubt it. layering.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
heated seats would be awesome.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
last I heard, there will be heated "warming stations" around the park.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
they're called bars
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Feb 2, 2010 12:17 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Either layering
or a very lax flask policy…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
they have a snowman building contest scheduled for after the game
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
also, there will be a variety of fried foods on sticks.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
sad that our educational system doesn't teach this at age eight.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
They taught me that pretty young.
I mean a simplified version.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
That's great.
Thanks.
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
Que Eric Idol
Just remember that you’re standing on a planet that’s evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That’s orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it’s reckoned,
A sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the ‘Milky Way’.
Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It’s a hundred thousand light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us, it’s just three thousand light years wide.
We’re thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.
We go ’round every two hundred million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.
The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute, and that’s the fastest speed there is.
So remember, when you’re feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there’s intelligent life somewhere up in space,
‘Cause there’s bugger all down here on Earth.
Should read Cue.
Queue means line.
But I figured it out anyway.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Cue.
Like cue card. Or your cue in a play.
Cue-n- anything said or done, on or off stage, that is followed by a specific line or action: An off-stage door slam was his cue to enter
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Furthermore
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/queue
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
I believe I can now
write a book(granted one that would make an english major squirm) about the many uses of the word cue. I was so used to the sarcastic and sardonic tone of this site I forget to account for the near canadian earnestness and straightforwardness of our SEC sister.
Я виключаю ти, сука
haha
that’s telling him!
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Unless by SEC he meant
more suited for the SEC the South carolina. In which case, yes, Very true.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
the meaning of life
is by far my fave monty python flick
and nobody knows about it
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~
every sperm is sacred
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~
It's been at least 15 years since
I’ve seen this…I have to put it back on the list.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Hello
Can we have your liver?
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~
Really?
I’m surprised it’s anybody’s. I think it’s really disjointed and nowhere near as good as Life Of Brian.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 2, 2010 8:11 AM EST up reply actions
Every time I think about how big the universe is
my brain starts to hurt… so I drink and kill brain cells such as to not have to deal with the bad man anymore…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
what's crazier is you average neutron star
is denser than all that stuff put together
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~
errr I meant moar massive
sorry
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~
makes me want to play master of orion I
conquer the galaxy in 300 turns, or fail.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
It's all a hoax
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Feb 2, 2010 10:31 AM EST up reply actions
he's not a Scot, I see no humor in this
by BuzzKillington on Feb 2, 2010 1:09 AM EST up reply actions
senor tengo que decirte algo
me gusta tu voz y me gustaria comprarte algo beber.
by BuzzKillington on Feb 2, 2010 1:15 AM EST up reply actions
as far as i can tell he said
يشرفنى ان senor decirte شيئا احب تو صوت, واننى gustaria comprarte شرب نوعا ما.
according to google
Lord I have to tell you something
I like your voice and I like to buy something to drink.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
for an online translator it's pretty close
mister, i have to tell you something
i like your voice and would like to buy you something to drink
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
the missing accent marks and tildes
and probably the only reasons for the minor mistakes
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
those free
translators are great for a good example use one to translate a sentence into Italian or French then translate that result back into english it is rarely close
Quick; someone translate this into Russian and then back into English.
I'm living in an age that calls darkness light...
It says
“In Soviet Russia, internet translates YOU!!”
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 2, 2010 8:13 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
bit wanky for me
but it is interesting to see the Johjima comparison I would have loved to see what he or Ichiro would have done if they had come over at 23-24
He didn't ask for criticisms, VEP!
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
They hate RJ
over there, and that is enough to say bias in my closed mind.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Johnson is a friend of mine.....
I have yet to read anything good about him on LL.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I've literally known him since the day he was born.
His parents and mine are great friends. I’m about 10 years older than him.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I root hard for the kid......
when you consider that he came from a place that has no high school ball….Legion ball only 3 – 4 months out of the year, and to make it to the bigs is a big accomplishment in my mind. Coming from MT and competing with kids who play ball literally year round, and winning playing time and advancing to where he is, is just awesome. And a great kid on top of it.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Closest I can say
Is that I caught Doc Halladay in my friend bret’s basement when I was in 8th grade
Yeah
he was 2 years older than me but I could catch, so I got to play he was in 10th grade at Arvada West here in CO he had a wicked fastball even then and I wasn’t wearing a cup, needless to say I was a little nervous
was he throwing off-speed too?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
every male VEBer
will cringe and squirm in his seat after reading this
hell some of the women too…
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~
I just got back from vomiting...
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
this was in the basement?
you guys have a cage, or were you drinking?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Bret
had the dream setup a 50 foot long unfinished basement with nets hung on both ends nothing to break really
that's pretty great
i wouldn’t catch high-school doc from little-league distance, though, so i still say there was drinking involved.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
oh it was Intense
but in 8th grade it was strictly Jolt cola for me, of course that day was nowhere near the top of my bad middle school decisions
LIdge and Chacon were in the year right ahead of me I played in games with those two. Chac was a dominant High School pitcher I barely remember Lidge I think he was an OF then he didn’t pitch in the game we played Creek
Я виключаю ти, сука
is it common to raise pitchers
in colorado? what is it, the rocky mountain water?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
funny that two year window also netted Scott Elarton
and Kevin Kouzmanoff never played those two though. There is something to be said for guys who learn to pitch at altitude, these guys aren’t afraid of giving a couple up
Я виключаю ти, сука
It was all an old guy named Bus Cambell
all of us in American Legion ball knew about him, supposedly he helped a lot of guys out, my friend Mike Schnelle worked with Cambell for a winter before he tore a rotator cuff his senior year, I think Schnelle threw harder than anyone I ever caught.
Я виключаю ти, сука
a bit reminiscent
of the guy in virginia (iirc, died in the last year) had the uptons, david wright, ryan zimmerman, and i believe reynolds of d-backs on the same team. used to pitch them bottlecaps and came up with his own little frisbee device.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
An interesting link
on another old guy who has taught a lot of MLB pitchers here in a small school there are a lot of guys like this teaching kids all over every we lose one we lose a wealth of knowledge
Я виключаю ти, сука
i'm sending that to my nephew
he’s 13 and been throwing it since he was 7. picked it up hanging around when i was teaching it to 11-15 yr. olds on the backyard mound. i’d always catch him afterwards, and one day he just threw it and had a big shit-eating grin.
speaking of mussina, he was at a big tourney my nephew played in this past summer in cooperstown. so was maddux.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
ha ha
that’s why i teach it. just throw a fastball with this grip. the middle and index fingers pop out and rotate the ball for you.
i myself learned it at about 12-13 from an old baseball guy for this very reason – to keep the elbow intact. later i topped out at 93-4 and never had any elbow issues (although i’d become primarily a SS by then).
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Yeah
Eaton pitchers like Scott Elarton were nasty with that pitch you spent so much focus on trying to spot their grip you never got around on the heat
Я виключаю ти, сука
i have my guys
simulate getting that grip in their gloves and then putting a heater by the batter. as they get older it’s of course easier to get the grip without tipping it.
probably the top hs pitcher in chicago this (his senior) year is one of my knuckle curve guys (the very first, in fact). he might be the best in illinois – been scouted regularly since his soph year when he was top varsity pitcher on a team where several guys are now pitching in college.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I like that pitch
if only because it can be learned so young, I couldn’t use it in my few attempts at pitching my index fingernail was split in half as a child and healed that way. Catching that pitch took some practice but once you have seen it a few hundred time it comes easier
Sidebar as a pitching coach have your read this
Я виключаю ти, сука
oh yeah
i saved that issue of SI, and made sure the father of the hs pitcher got a copy – he managed his boy’s teams but allowed me to coach him – because the hs varsity pitching coach is a former big-leaguer who got a cy vote or two one year (on all his brochures – “former cy young candidate”), but he was the complete opposite of my guy and i wasn’t sure if he was really best for him, even though, obviously, he knows what he is doing.
btw, my guy is a lefty, half parts mexican and german, and sorta reminds me of our own garcia.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I knew I'd never be a pitcher
anytime I tried to throw any breaking ball, my elbow barked about it all the time. That might have been because of a freak elbow injury as a little kid though.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
you know
I have heard that if a kid is picked up by his wrist of hand before the age of 5 or so it will likely dislocate the elbow and set it up for later problems
Я виключаю ти, сука
i think painguy posted something
on the topic of the maturation of the elbow that could back that up.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I'm trying to figure out where the basement came in to play?
he was 2 years older than me but I could catch, so I got to play
Do you guys in Colorado have some sort of indoor, Mom’s basement baseball league that you’ve been keeping from the rest of us?
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
by RiverRat on Feb 2, 2010 1:41 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The bigger question is who doesn't wear a cup when you are the catcher
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 2, 2010 1:42 AM EST up reply actions
spur-of-the-moment?
and i know a couple guys have batting cages in their basements.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
winterball
among teenagers in Colorado is be necessity indoors, we played a few more times in the spring but Roy played first his coach didn’t want him throwing in pickup games
Is that a euphemism?
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Feb 2, 2010 10:35 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I didn't want to be the one to go there
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
no way that
ginger had anyone catching before he got the big bucks
Я виключаю ти, сука
by TomCat009 on Feb 2, 2010 5:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
To be fair,
RJ does worship satan.
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
Over/under on Legobombs
I have him at 30 even seems like a doable number but, it would be a spike from his last 2 years.
I'll take the under
Hard to imagine a spike in HR production moving to Busch.
I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...
More games at Cincy, Wrigley and Astros Theme Park, though.
I'm living in an age that calls darkness light...
About 80 less games at Coors should probably cancel that out
Plus, Aaron Heilman is out of the division.
I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...
i say he's 4th in homers
after luddy and colby and obviously.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
if matt holliday is 4th in dingers on this team
we are going to be really freaking good.
"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR
Busch Stadium is looking like it is a pitchers park
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 2, 2010 1:52 AM EST up reply actions
good by me
and apu laughs.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I just scanned the comments over at BCB
to see what they’re saying about a kid I know named Darwin Barney who is a NRI to ST for the Cubs. Some of their conversations are a little intense.
"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR
Yeah.
No offense to our very cool Cubbie-loving guests of not too long ago, but those people over there are NUTS.
Make way for the Homo Superior.
by the red baron on Feb 2, 2010 1:09 AM EST up reply actions
this.
but the consensus over there seems to be that barney could be ML ready, which, if the crazies are right, is cool. kid was a good friend of my brother’s growing up, they played baseball together for years. it was a sad, sad, sad day when the cubs drafted him.
"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR
You know the feeling you have
when you have to sneeze, you know that all encompassing feeling that requires release? The denizens of BCB have had their face frozen in that AHHH AHHHHHH AAHHHHHHHHH face for decades now, the tension is understandable
I prefer to think of it as that moment just before you-
Never mind. It seems I can’t help but go blue this late at night.
Make way for the Homo Superior.
by the red baron on Feb 2, 2010 1:12 AM EST up reply actions
you tell that whale how it is
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
by prophetjohn on Feb 2, 2010 1:15 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
list of spring training invitees via future redbids
who the fuck are some of these guys?
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
Who do you not know on that is coming to the ML team?
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 2, 2010 1:19 AM EST up reply actions
charles cutler and tony cruz
had to have a refresher on oneli perez, too
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
same name, same position, different guy
this is some dude that hasn’t played above rookie ball
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
in baseball mogul
ryan braun the pitcher gets ryan braun the hitter’s predicted stats. Gotta get that guy on an NL squad.
i don't know kukich -
was something like that.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
jukich
is the cards ML rule v pick
lefty starter type that’ll probably compete for 5th starter/long relief/mop up
or get sent back to the reds
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
fixed
or get sent back traded back to the Reds for Miles
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Til he gets bumped off the roster by my man Ben Jukich.
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
Worked for the Farns...
oh wait maybe not…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
Man, Jeff Goldblum was so young.
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
What the hell, you think Heilman was going to get it?
Fuck no.
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
by hazel on Feb 2, 2010 1:37 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Harold Reynolds = *
these guys on MLB say they don’t see how STL can re-sign Albert, except Gammons.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
so they think the org chose holliday over apu?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
this was likely discussed
but anyone think apu told the fo he’d take some off his end for holliday?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
not discussed on MLB
They (*) say it will take 30 per to sign Apu.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
i thought maybe it was discussed here
wasn’t around during that signing period
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
If it's $30m/yr I would just let him walk
seriously, he’s not worth that for more than about 5 years or so. Even that is only about market value.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Feb 2, 2010 8:27 AM EST up reply actions
See aren't you glad I gave you the *asshat idea?
Must have saved you 1000 lettters by now. That’s worth like 2 front page posts.
You don't get off that easy....
there’s at least another weeks worth of digs out there.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
You'd know all about saving enough words to write two front page posts.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
we're DOOMED
those * are never wrong!
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
OT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmT1QTCIa9I
"What's your favorite Chuck Palahniuk book?"
"I like the one about the alienated character who finds the socially unacceptable way of coping with modernity."
I was going to respond with a quick WTF...
then I saw the Sweeden thing and it made more sense… I guess…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
I really could have
made it the rest of my life without seeing that…..Sweden or not.
* is an Asshat
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Same here...
I could be a real jerk and link to the Foo Fighters Low video now to give a good 1-2 punch, but I’m a better man than that…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
squid roast on the beach sounds good.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
OT: Grooveshark is one of my favorite sites on the web
It’s “down for maintenance” page makes it even better. Reminds me of VEB
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~
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