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Predicting How Pujols Might Age

 

Obviously, no one knows how Albert Pujols will age. But if we want to make an estimate, how can we do so?

Albert Pujols is an exceptional talent and a great player to root for. Given my choice, Albert will be batting cleanup for Cardinals and contending for a triple crown when I take my grandchildren to a game in 2024. However, given that he will be 44 by then, that is not likely. Much to my dismay, he will eventually prove to be mortal and show the effects of age.

One way to estimate how quickly Pujols will succumb to the effects of time is to look at other similar players. The difficulty here is that Pujols is a unique talent—few players are similar to him. But if we want to use hard data, that is the best we can do. If nothing else, by combining players, we can learn something from the shape of the data.

What follows are the results of a small, quick study I did on the aging of players similar to Albert Pujols. The WAR numbers are from Fangraphs. I am aware that this is not an incredibly statistically sophisticated study, but it is better than picking a player out of the blue who did not age well and simply using them as an example. 

Study 1

The first set of players I used was the Baseball Reference.com list of players most similar to Albert Pujols at age 30. This generated the following list:

Jimmie Fox, Frank Robinson, Ken Griffey, Lou Gehrig, Hank Aaron, Mickey Mantle, Mel Ott, Juan Gonzalez, and Manny Ramirez.

This list is a bit odd, as it seems very heavy on OF. On the other hand, it includes a list of highly talented superstars who could rake.

For the study, I decided to exclude Juan Gonzalez, as he seems totally out of place on this list. For example, the other players averaged a 7.6 WAR from age 27-30, while he averages a 3.3. Pujols averaged an 8.43.

One issue with the list is Jimmie Foxx left for the war at age 35 and missed most of two years. However, it is unclear how negatively this impacted his performance—in his final 100 games before leaving he only managed a WAR of 0.6.

I next tried to set an established value level. To do so, I simply averaged the WAR of the group of  players’ age 27-30 seasons. I went up to age 30, as that is the current age of Pujols. Using 4 years was admittedly arbitrary, but players tend to be stable throughout that time of their career. Using three years of data--ages 28-30--does not change the data much—there is a difference of less than 0.2 of WAR.  

For each subsequent age, up to 38, I computed the group’s total WAR for that age. Then I divided it by the group’s established level of production. This told me how much of their established value level they retained at that age.

For example, the group of players as a group averaged a WAR of 68.375 from age 27-30. At age 31 the group produced a WAR of 59.6. This amount was 87% of their established level of production.  

Then, to derive an estimate of what value Pujols might have at this age, I multiplied the percent of their established value the other players retained by Pujols’ established value. For example, if they retained 87% of their value, I project he will retain 87% of his established value, too.

The results are as follows.

Age

31

32

33

34

35

36

37

38

Percent of Value Retained

87

72

77

55

52

36

20

15

Pujols’ Projected WAR

7.3

6.1

6.5

4.6

4.4

3.0

1.7

1.2

 

Study 2

I ran the same study again, but this time I used Baseball Prospectus.com’s most recent list of similar players. This list was generated before the 2010 season. It does list many more first basemen. The list is as follows:

Frank Thomas, Jeff Bagwell, Jason Giambi, Eddie Murray, Lou Gehrig, Rogers Hornsby, Travis Hafner, Todd Helton, Jack Clark, and Fred McGriff

From this list, I excluded Travis Hafner for a variety of reasons. Mainly, at 33 years old, he does not provide much data on aging. I also considered eliminating Jack Clark. I left him in, but I am happy to provide results excluding him if anyone wishes.

The players had an average WAR of 6.5 during their age 27-30 seasons.

The results are as follows:  

Age

31

32

33

34

35

36

37

38

Percent of Value Retained

102

87

62

81

70

37

17

19.5

Pujols’ Projected WAR

8.6

7.3

5.2

6.8

5.9

3.1

1.4

1.6

 

Discussion of results

The studies are far from flawless, but they do yield a few interesting results. Study 2 suggests a much more gradual aging curve for the next five years of Pujol’s career. Overall, however, they both predict a steep drop from age 36 to 38. At these ages many players in the studies often lost most of their productivity or left the game altogether. In short, despite these being lists of elite players, most rapidly lost their value after the age of 35.

In addition, if one looks at the data, there is no clear way to determine who will hold their value.  

Based on these results, a five-year contract, even at a higher annual value, would probably be optimal. Of course, it is also highly unlikely.

The best case scenario from the players studied was Hank Aaron. In his age 36-38 seasons he produced WARs of 5.9, 7.6, and 5.1. If Pujols could retain a similar value, he would be worth a high annual salary even in an 8-year contract. However, Aaron was an extreme outlier in the study—no one else was even close. Four of the players studied had little or no value after age 35, and Todd Helton seems likely to join them.

Comment 46 comments  |  13 recs  | 

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Good post, someone needed to do this

So let’s plug in some numbers. Currently it costs about 5 million per win on the free agent market. If you plug in the Baseball Prospectus numbers and assume 5% inflation, Pujol’s is worth about 225 million over the next 8 years on a pure market value basis.

I had made a spreadsheet about this awhile back as well:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AmhtqthzQ8zFdFUzTGszMFpsUFhnUWVoTWpOb0tZUHc&authkey=CMfslPgK&hl=en#gid=0

Plug in whatever numbers you like and see how much we should pay Bert!

i like herion - prophetjohn

by vivaelpujols on Dec 8, 2010 12:41 AM EST reply actions  

so would you go over 28mil/yr?

would you even do an 8 year contract?

boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2010 2:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, that's what his value is, according to the numbers

I don’t see why not. I don’t think he’ll make us pay him 28 million a year either.

i like herion - prophetjohn

by vivaelpujols on Dec 8, 2010 3:00 AM EST up reply actions  

8/200 with some deferred money would probably work for me, I guess

assuming we bump the payroll a little. I guess that’s not crazy for either party; Albert gets the biggest non-A-Rod deal in baseball, not bad for a guy the wrong side of 30, and we’ve got a chance of making a little surplus value if he ages well. The slight discount we get is partly hometown, partly due to the catastrophic injury risk associated with such a long deal.

In all honesty, I’d struggle to justify more than $25m AAV for Pujols, and I kinda almost hope we let him go if he wants more than that. Obviously, the shorter the deal (and whether we’re buying out 2011 or not) may impact on that slightly (upwards) but even on a 5-year deal (which ain’t going to happen) I think getting near $30m would be a struggle…

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 16, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

One other note

I probably should mention that first basemen aged pretty poorly after age 35. The ones producing the most WAR from ages 36-38 were the Crime Dog (with an average WAR of 2.3) and the Big Hurt (with an average WAR under 2.2). Both did have a season with almost no value (0.2 and 0.6) during those years.

My guess is that barring serous injuries, Albert will most closely follow the path of study 2, and I would bet he would out perform it. But there is a definite risk.

by tarakas on Dec 8, 2010 12:56 AM EST reply actions  

Why do you have

Albert projected for 8.6 WAR next year? I’d say 7.5 to 8 WAR is a more accurate projection.

by chuckb on Dec 10, 2010 10:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Albert's known elbow problems add another dimension to this

inquiry, of course, but I know there’s really nothing you can do to incorporate it in a meaningful way. If we sign him to a long-term contract, it’s just something we’ll either have to try to ignore or just hold our breath about. Regardless, great post. This is the kind of analysis I look for in a fanpost.

by mattyp on Dec 8, 2010 1:00 AM EST reply actions  

One last note

I had meant to mention that Mel Ott’s late career numbers were propped up by playing against inferior war time competition.Without the war, his decline would have looked worse.

by tarakas on Dec 8, 2010 1:06 AM EST reply actions  

AAV

For these years should be 17.5 to 20 million. Using this list as a prediction, paying 25 mil per, or a touch above, isn’t a terrible risk of overpaying him by too much. Undoubtedly, we will probably take a hit in the later years. But that’s just the way baseball works these days it seems. Do any large contracts really work out ideally anymore?

by Kannonm on Dec 8, 2010 2:16 AM EST reply actions  

i'm just going to keep holding on to the hope that Amuri will not let Albert age

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 8, 2010 3:00 AM EST reply actions  

I'd say you'd be better off studying his family.

Genes vs. numbers.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 8, 2010 7:19 AM EST reply actions  

Of course

Let’s design a study where we examine how long Albert Pujols’ family members maintained their baseball skills at an elite level past age 30.

Uhm, I can’t find any that did.

I guess he is washed up already. Trade him Mo, trade him!

Seriously, even if we could get access to the health records of his family, they would have to be very detailed. I mean, just because your grandma was spry until 80 doesn’t say much about your ability to get around on a fastball at 35.

And families tell us little about baseball skill. Ask Tommy Aaron. Or Dom Dimaggio. Or ask Ozzie Canseco, Jose’s genetically identical twin. Or the countless non-player siblings. The Griffey’s had pretty different careers.

I’m not sure how we would do such a study or what it would tell us.

by tarakas on Dec 8, 2010 8:27 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Just Kidding!

I couldn’t help it.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 8, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

One thing worth noting

is how many of these players were, after age 30, done being who they had been offensively.

Of the 136 years they were age 31-38, there were only 20 seasons where a player equaled or exceeded his establish level of value. 8 of the 17 players never performed at that level again.

If you take out age 31 seasons, and look at age 32-38, 11 of the 17 players never reached that level again. Yes, after age 32, 65% of these elite players never produced at their established level again.

by tarakas on Dec 8, 2010 8:19 AM EST reply actions  

Nice post...

Would it be better to just focus on first basemen? A cursory look at the career WAR leaders among first basemen seems to indicate that in the modern era they seem to either last a really long time or get knocked out by strange circumstances (Gehrig, Foxx, Bagwell). Musial, Rose, Carew, Thomas, Murryay, Palmeiro, Banks, McCovey, Thome, Stargell etc… all produced into their late thirties. Of course some of these guys were transplants, and others played DH at the end.

A seven-year deal buys Pujols’ age 38 season. It would be most fortuitous and unusual for him to produce after that. I could see giving him an eight year deal as part of the cost of doing business, but more than that would be irresponsible.

Another issue is his age. Are the Cardinals 100% sure he was born in January 1980?

Screw you, you freakin stats nerd

by guayzimi on Dec 8, 2010 10:22 AM EST reply actions  

Baseball Prospectus's scores try to take position into account

That is why their list is mostly first basemen. And don’t forget, Albert did not start out at first, either.

They also take into account body type. I think that is a huge factor here. Many of the players that aged well, such as Aaron, Musial, and Williams, were lean. My impression is that the big, muscular guys, do not age as well. Among other things, they lose speed, and they are prone to leg and foot problems.

You can’t really compare someone like Musial or Rod Carew to Pujols. Carew is listed at 6-foot, 170 lbs. Musial was 6 foot, 175 lbs. Pete Rose, 5’11", 192 pounds. Ernie banks, 6’1", 180 pounds. Even Willie Stargell, who was 6’2", is listed at 188 pounds.

At 6’3" and 230 pounds, Pujols dwarfs them.

I would guess that body type may be one of the largest factors.

Another factor is personality. No one works harder than Albert. His conditioning and work ethic are superb. Compared to say, a Mickey Mantle, this will make a huge difference.

by tarakas on Dec 8, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

very good point -- always been a lot of murkiness around his age

a couple years could be catastrophic in this analysis

Just win

by The Duke on Dec 10, 2010 10:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Meh.

He’s a US citizen. I think he would’ve been caught if it were going to happen.

by spants on Dec 10, 2010 11:17 PM EST up reply actions  

maybe

an alternative would be to try to dissect out the various ‘skills’ that are contributing to the players value. Pujols is somewhat unique in that he plays excellent defense, hits for power, has an excellent batting eye (at least historically), and hits for average. So then maybe a better predictor would be to see how power ages (probably not well) vs how walk rate ages (probably a little better – after filtering out intentional walks). How does defense age? In particular, for first basemen. Alot more leg work, I know, but probably will be a better predictor ultimately.

by cdb on Dec 8, 2010 10:32 AM EST reply actions  

I was interested in this as well

I remember reading something somewhere that certain skills age better than others – so doing an cursory glace on baseball-ref (I don’t subscribe) on certain types of players seemed to verify this. BA seemed to stay constant (within it’s usual variation) until about 36, then slowly dropped off for some, while dropping off a cliff for others. Walk rate seemed very stable through the end of a career, usually slowly declining year over year. I’d need more than cursory glances at a few like-skilled players to sort out power/doubles etc since there’s a lot of noise season to season on those.

by Birds on the Matt on Dec 16, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder if you did this study through the players age 26 seasons

and then ‘predicted’ how Albert would have done over the past four years, if it would be possible to get some information about how his trajectory may or may not differ from the ‘generic’ player.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Dec 8, 2010 11:28 AM EST reply actions  

I'm very interested to see this.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 8, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

This is very good.

Looking at the grids you’ve provided, we need to remind ourselves that the Cardinals are already getting Pujols’s age 31 season for a bargain cost of $16MM. I might extend the grids out for ten years after this season. It seems to me that 10 years is likely the longest Pujols’s new contract may be. I would love it if we only did a seven-year contract, but I would guess it will be at least eight years in length.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 8, 2010 1:14 PM EST reply actions  

I toyed with ten years

What happens is more and more players simply aren’t playing any more. By that point, leaving baseball is really more of the issue than performance. You’d get an increasingly low WAR number, but it largely reflects all the zeroes being produced by retired (or deceased) players. When almost everyone has retired, the average production is pretty low. At those ages, you are better off studying the drop out rate by age. The better question is really, “How likely is it Pujols will be playing at 39?”

I could run those numbers as well.

Before 2010, BP ran those numbers for Pujols using their system. They gave him a 45% chance to be out of baseball by age 39. My guess it that percentage will be higher when they run the numbers this year.

by tarakas on Dec 8, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

One issue is consistency

While the aggregated stats shows a gradual decline, for many players that is not what happened. They mainly became less consistent as they declined. Take someone like Frank Thomas. As he aged, there were years he produced at a high level. interspersed with these were years where his injuries put him at close to replacement level.

I’d expect in reality, Pujols would show a somewhat similar pattern. He will not decline as I predicted. Instead, in some years, he will out perform it by a large margin. In another year, serious injuries will limit his performance and playing time to such an extent that he has a bad year. When healthy, he will still retain most of his skills and seem like Pujols. But he will be healthy less and less often. The issue probably is not how well his power or strike zone judgement or bat speed ages. It is how long his legs and feet can hold up.

by tarakas on Dec 8, 2010 1:15 PM EST reply actions  

I think that BP takes production and body type into consideration, as well.

That being said, if you were to compare the decline phase of these individuals to that of first basemen generally, it might be interesting.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 8, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

sort of a control group

boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2010 9:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I have always thought that he would age well because of his skills

As he ages his power will decline but he doesn’t have a high average because of his power. He would still get on base a lot and still hit a lot of line drives. Defense ages well so I wouldn’t expect that to suddenly vanish. The big question mark is health. So far he has been remarkably sturdy. The “playing through injury” aspect that many greats seem to possess is often their downfall as it makes the injurys worse. All we can do is sign the contract and hope for the best. Both studues seem fair to value a slow decline. Thanks for taking the blinders off and making Pujols seem human!

In a free society, we are supposed to know the truth. In a society where truth becomes treason, we are in big trouble.

by Skips OCD on Dec 8, 2010 3:02 PM EST reply actions  

Anything that looks at a group of players is going to

produce data which is averaged or regressed towards the sample mean. I think the contention that a lot of people would make is that Albert is a true outlier. The problem is that it’s nigh impossible to determine statistically if he is a “true” outlier. Furthermore, it’s probably not the wisest course of action to bet that he’s a “true” outlier.

But if I’m trying to justify a high $$$ contract for Albert, that’s the argument I make.

Silly humans, this world is for robots.

by azruavatar on Dec 8, 2010 6:21 PM EST reply actions  

And we're looking at

extremely small samples here. Thus the pronounced increase in WAR in sample 2 between ages 33 and 34. That seems really unrealistic as a projection.

The truth, of course, is that we’ll never know if Albert truly is an outlier until he reaches those ages. For what it’s worth, I’ve seen nothing to indicate that he’s more likely to age well or that he’s going to be less injury prone than others with his body type.

by chuckb on Dec 10, 2010 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

General question about aging curves

How much have aging curves changed over the last, say, 50 years. A 40 year-old in 2015 might be quite a bit different from a 40 year-old in 1960. By eye, the first list of comps seems to be from an older era on average compared to the second list. I wonder if that might account for the sharper drop off.

If we had a solid grasp on how aging curves have changed over the years, we might better incorporate players from different eras (e.g., align Pujols age 32 season with the age 30 season of Fox, Gehrig, and Ott).

by brackenthebox on Dec 8, 2010 6:34 PM EST reply actions  

my "gut" tells me that since Albert is a really good athlete, and has quick reflexes, etc

that he will age well. besides he always has looked older than everyone else. the elbow injury doesn’t seem to bother him, and he’s had some maintenance surgeries on it already. he seems pretty durable (not to mention he plays a lot of games and doesn’t like to sit)

boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 8, 2010 9:10 PM EST reply actions  

Eliminating Jason Giambi

from the 2nd study would help smooth out the age 34 and 35 spike in WAR. He had tremendous seasons at those ages, and his data should probably be thrown out when studying the natural decline phase of a slugger’s career.

by deadpullpitcher on Dec 9, 2010 12:56 AM EST reply actions  

Playing devil's advocate: why?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 16, 2010 10:39 AM EST up reply actions  

This really is instructive

Makes you want to pay through the nose for a 3 year extension and then see where the chips fall. If you do a long term contract buy out 2011 and pay up

My personal opinion on Albert is that he is an injury train wreck that hasn’t happened yet. The guy doesn’t seem to fare well over the course of the season — last year he could barely run. He just seems to be one of those guys who has nagging issues. In your 20s you can overcome that, but I suspect in his 30s that may be an issue.

I’d like to see Albert as a Cardinal for life but not at expense of putting good teams on the field — I hope they find a path that works for both parties.

Just win

by The Duke on Dec 10, 2010 10:14 PM EST reply actions  

I found this quote from Theo Epstein on BP today -- apropos of this fanpost

"I don’t think there’s a bright line with age, per se, but getting players in their primes—or in the early parts of their primes—is really important," Epstein said. "If you’re going to sign a long-term contract, you want to make sure it at least starts at the right age and ends at a reasonable age. Most elite position players sign through age 36. If you can get a player signed through 35, I know it sounds silly, but that might be a victory in and of itself, capturing more of a player’s prime years from 29-35. If it’s the right player and you expect him to age well, it can be a more tolerable risk than signing a player who’s already into his 30s and you go into the late 30s. If you look at the history of big, long-term contracts, just narrowing it to position players, most of the ones that in hindsight can truly be deemed mistakes are ones that captured years in the late 30s or mid-to-late 30s. If you focus more on the prime years, you give yourself a much better chance to get the kind of return on investment that you’re looking for."

Just win

by The Duke on Dec 10, 2010 10:37 PM EST up reply actions  

flatulence in general direction

boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2010 4:05 AM EST reply actions  

how about a compare/contrast on albert vs. other thickbodies? foxx, frank thomas, luzinski,horner,giambi, berkman…

when does RB Fallstrom get inducted to the hall of fame?

by hongniao on Dec 12, 2010 6:51 PM EST reply actions  

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