Puma eats Fat Elvis and everyone Riots
So the Cardinals made two moves this week that we've already discussed heavily: (1) trading Blake Hawksworth for Ryan Theriot and (2) signing Lance Berkman to a 1 year deal for $8M. The consensus at VEB, as near as I can tell, is that these were both good moves. I agree with that. I also think that reasonable people are justified in their concern with the downside of both deals. And I, personally, find these moves to be confusing and discouraging in terms of the direction of the organization.
First, let's start with evaluating these moves in isolation. The Cardinals middle infield was terrible last year. Many of us, including myself, have pointed out that both Brendan Ryan and Skip Schumaker had statistical profiles that indicated they were very unlucky last year on offense. Brendan Ryan looks more like a 2.5 WAR player if you adjust for park and batted ball profile and Skip Schumaker a 1.5 WAR player. Still, the backup for the infield consisted of the likes of Aaron Miles and Pedro Feliz.
Ryan Theriot is a great piece to compliment the middle infielder. He can hit a little, he's right handed to spell Schumaker and he's capable of playing shortstop, if not particularly well. Theriot looks like a player a little better than replacement level and in his second arbitration year, we'll be paying him something approaching market value. That's a fine deal for a team.
The more impressive part of this acquisition was that the Cardinals got something of value for Blake Hawksworth. With all due apologies to Danup and his penchant for not very good prospects, Hawksworth had settled into that dreaded not very good, quasi-trusted, veteran role that can be so hard for the Cardinals to dislodge mediocre players from (see Miles, Aaron). Hawksworth extra fastball mileage in the pen hasn't made him more than a replacement level pitcher. The Cardinals have better relief arms ready to graduate from the minors in Fernando Salas and Eduardo Sanchez. Thankfully, it looks like both those players now get the chance to solidify a role in the major league pen.
So the Cardinals managed to trade a replacement level player, for whom they already have an able internal replacement, for a slightly above replacement middle infielder at a spot that they don't have an internal candidate for. That is good trade.
The Lance Berkman deal is a short term move for a player who has significant upside on a relatively cheap contract. This kind of deal is never a crippling one to a team and can pay significant dividends. A simple Marcel projection for Berkman is going to give him something in the range of a .375-.385 wOBA. Even the more pessimistic end of that scale would put him 25 runs better than an average offensive player over 600 PAs. Assuming -15 defense (i.e. we'll say things like "Chris Duncan would have caught that"), he's still a 2 WAR player. The Cardinals are paying him $8M, which has been right around the going rate for a 2 WAR player.
Berkman also has upside. There's some reports that he was hurt all last year. He's already approaching a point where we'll get the "best shape of my career" quote having lost 13 pounds since the post-season. There's a chance he's not totally immobile in the outfield and that his ability to hit lefties rebounds some. So the Cardinals are paying for 2 WAR but hoping to reap something like 3-4 WAR. (Over/Under betting on "best shape of my career" quote begins at Feb 15th.)
Having said all that, I'm not surprised that there's some apprehension or concern over these two deals. Ryan Theriot has been declining consistently and his .286 wOBA last year was actually 13 points worse than Skip Schumaker. Theriot is going to turn 31 on Tuesday, Dec. 7th which is well into the decline phase of the aging curve for middle infielders. As someone who places their trust in objective projections of players, I think it's too early to write off 2011 Ryan Theriot as 2010 Ryan Theriot but I also think there's ample cause to believe that his offensive collapse thus far has been real. If it is real, I don't expect the Cardinals to be able to cut bait.
The other qualm with Theriot acquisition has to be in subsequent quotes regarding his usage. The idea that he should be the starting shortstop is not one that's validated by any statistical argument that I've seen. Replacing a player (e.g. Brendan Ryan) with superior defense at short behind a groundball heavy pitching staff with someone (e.g. Ryan Theriot) who might be an average defender is a questionable tactic. Especially when you have Skip Schumaker at second who is a terrible defender and an ideal platoon partner. I don't want to get too attached to quotes about position made in early December but if this plays out as it's been discussed so far than it's decision making based on personalities off the field and not on the field talent. That's unfortunate.
With Berkman, the concerns are much the same. He's got knee problems; he's 35 years old; he couldn't hit LHP last year and saw an overall statistical decline. If he turns into a pumpkin, the Cardinals have to be willing to bench their new, high profile acquisition in favor of Jon Jay or Allen Craig. Raise your hand if you see that happening prior to August. I don't. To emphasize, I tend to fall in line with the projections I've made above but it's unreasonable to me to not acknowledge the potential for Berkman to also be in true talent decline. While that's a statement you can make about many players, the probability that it applies to Berkman is undeniably higher.
So the moves themselves look good to me. They're not earth shattering but they're solid, thoughtful moves meant to support a core offense of Albert Pujols, Matt Holliday and Colby Rasmus. The front office should be commended for making solid acquisitions like this. We still have to see how the execution will play out but that's a discussion we'll likely have many times over the next season.
This brings me to my final, highly speculative argument. I do not get the feeling that the front office has a comprehensive vision for how to build a winning team. These moves strike me as a group divided against itself that is trying to cope with an internal power swing (yet again) and is grasping desperately for answers. The Cardinals are discussing replacing Brendan Ryan with Ryan Theriot and, Wheel of Fortune puzzles aside, that is odd. The Cardinals traded Ryan Ludwick for Jake Westbrook last year because they said they needed more pitching. I thought that trade was defensible but now they've decided they need offense again in the outfield. Perplexing. In their latest move, they'll be moving Allen Craig from outfield back to third base in Spring Training.
The Brendan Ryan (possible) replacement is something personality driven. It's been a while since I've had to argue that clubhouse chemistry doesn't matter but I've got the opportunity to do it again. Clubhouse chemistry doesn't matter. Additionally, Ryan is the kind of player that is championed by advanced defensive metrics. Theriot's profile is more appealing to traditional baseball folks.
The Ryan Ludwick trade looks like a lack of foresight as does the incredibly frustrating Allen Craig move. The coaching staff didn't like their farm system options for 5th starter but they did like Jon Jay as an outfielder so they traded Ludwick for Westbrook. Now, La Russa campaigns publicly on radio for Lance Berkman. The Cardinals moved Allen Craig off 3rd because of David Freese. (I never agreed with the move of Craig and you'll have to forgive me if I feel partially vindicated.) Now, with no real backup plan at third, they move him back.
These moves feel disjointed when looked at together. It isn't as simple as a old/new mindset split within the organization but if you think Tony hasn't had a heavy hand in offseason decisions you're naive. Part of it is an inability to forecast development by the farm system. The farm hasn't produced a reliable outfield product since Colby Rasmus and is struggling to develop starters right now. This criticism may seem odd coming from me but I think it's warranted. Conversely, the farm system has done some things right and the coaching staff has refused to accept it (see Aaron Miles and Mike MacDougal and Matt Pagnozzi). Neither side trusts each other and it shows, symptomatically, in the organizational decision making.
Even if the Theriot and Berkman moves play out to perfection in 2011, what do they do for the Cardinals long term? They're a stopgap measure at best and this organization can't seem to decide whether to trust it's player development system or not. It also can't seem to decide whether the manager is in charge of roster decisions or not. The result is a disjointed, aimless big picture even if the current short term moves appear positive. The Cardinals are better on paper in 2011 but I can't tell where they're headed beyond that.
(The lack of a playlist is the only thing that may distinguish the verbosity of today's author from a typical Wednesday post.)
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heh
(The lack of a playlist is the only thing that may distinguish the verbosity of today’s author from a typical Wednesday post.)
by CodyG on Dec 5, 2010 9:23 AM EST reply actions 9 recs
you'll get none and like it.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I gave ya one, Cody.
I’m just in generous mood today.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 5, 2010 9:37 AM EST up reply actions
Who the F rec'd that?
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
by gdm426 on Dec 5, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
at this point I'm proud of my not so high rec total
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
ive never gotten the begging for recs or giving recs to be funny
except for that one glorious all green thread, which was & should be a one time thing
call me old fashion, but i believe in giving rec’s to comments that only deserve them. not just throwing them out willy nilly
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
by gdm426 on Dec 5, 2010 5:17 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
gather round! gather round! old man GDM is about to drop some knowledge on you young whippersnappers
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
now i feel bad
fore reccing chitown’s post
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I wonder if you rec then re-rec and then un rec and re rec if you can boost my total
j/k, I don’t really care that much heh
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
I read this as reverse psychology so I will rec it
Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have? Frank Chance 1908
i think i rec you more than normal gdm
maybe because you’re cantankerous, but in an endearing way.
"...and pujols has given st louis the lead"
follow me on teh twitterz @greenfieldt
Who is this dude and why is he on my VEB
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?
we thought the big easy had eaten you or something
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
A mixture of upper levels, LSATs, renewed friendships, and newspapers
kept me from enjoying the cantankerous yet endearing pleasures of VEB
you dropped of the twitters too
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
cantankerous & endearing? that's the nicest thing anyone has ever said about me
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
you do realize the all-green thread was after I chastised y'all
for doing that very thing?
how soon they forget [plays alanis]
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
I take complete blame for that.
I was bored, and it’s low comment count made it ripe for the picking.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
then they started posting bacon pics
and turning those green
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Man,
I’m getting it from all sides here lately. What the hell, VEB?
And solid post, Az. Plenty of reason to be concerned that the organization still can’t get on the same page, but we’ve mostly known that for awhile now. (I would be wary of a certain member who shall remain nameless yelling at you for blaming TLR for personnel moves, though.)
Personally, though, I like bringing in Berkman. This defense may be painful to watch at times, but his skillet translates as a two hole hitter beer than just about anyone else I can think of.
Semper fidelis tyrannosaurus!
by the red baron on Dec 5, 2010 9:38 AM EST via mobile reply actions
We kid because we care, RB.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 5, 2010 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
Stupid mobile autocorrect!
I do propose that instead of skillset, we always say skillet though. I like referring to Berkman’s skillet.
the use of "skillet" and "two hole hitter beer" work well in RB's post
they very well may be intentional. Never underestimate RB’s ability to create something wonderful.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Phone Autocorrect
On my phone, when I type “w-i” my first autocorrect option is “Winn.” Not “with” or “will.” Does this say more about me or the 2010 season?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Last year Winn equalled lose
So I know the question is rhetorical but I can’t miss an opportunity to bitch about Randy Winn last year
"IF CARDS CAN SIGN SUPPAN THEY CAN GIVE ME A HOME"
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Dec 5, 2010 12:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
getting it from all sides?
in bed
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
by prophetjohn on Dec 5, 2010 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Zing!
"He's the straw that makes the drink go."
by Thelonious Dunk on Dec 5, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
Oh god
Not you again
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Is there a problem, Mr. mysterui?
"He's the straw that makes the drink go."
by Thelonious Dunk on Dec 5, 2010 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
Haha its just easy to confuse with Felonious Monk
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Ohhyeahh, I recall.
The one with a meerkat for an avatar.
"He's the straw that makes the drink go."
by Thelonious Dunk on Dec 5, 2010 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
IT'S A DOG WITH A GODDAMN WIG ON.
The temerity!!!
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 6, 2010 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
liked the Berkman signing too
Theriot, the verdict is out on. if he plays most of the games at short in ‘11, then it’s a huge failure in identifying players’ skills by the Cardinals org (or by TLR, whichever is in charge there)
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
it's my drum
(I would be wary of a certain member who shall remain nameless yelling at you for blaming TLR for personnel moves, though.)
And I’ll bet it as loud and as often as I can.
I like the Berkman move, I would like the riot move too if it didn’t involve shipping out Ryan
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
by Evilfrog on Dec 5, 2010 3:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
you need to comment more RB
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
its more than the left hand-right hand deal with the FO
it doesn’t matter where a player comes from, it is how good they are
which requires some opportunity to make the adjustment from AAA in the case of jaig et al
tlr et al, simply prefer to look back 4, 5. 6 years and project that player’s production/skills unchanged
they simply cannot look into the future unless the the player is way, way above average (clobby), but even then they have to show them who is boss
it’s up to bdw to break the log jam, but it doesn’t seem he wants to
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
If Puma was occupying the Jay or Craig roster slot, I'd be concerned. But:
You can also think of this move as being to occupy the Randy Winn roster slot.
If that’s the way it works out (i.e., TLR doesn’t demand that Mo go out and get another decrepit outfielder), this is a huge winn for the team.
As for Theriot, let’s just wait and see. I’m an agnostic on that one — but Hawk will not be difficult to replace out of the minors.
StanTheManFan
Contributes any way he can.
He's normally a nuclear physicist
Except when writing for this list.
knowing tony, though,
there’s got to be at least one “gritty” player (that’s not skippy) on the team. won’t be long before we see ’st. louis cardinals sign aaron miles to __ year deal".
hey Mo: theriot at 2B, boog at SS.
KEEP BRENDAN RYAN.
Bad Attitude
I have a very bad attitude regarding the Cards and their management, but here’s my sneaking suspicion: they are signing Berkman to start in right, move Jay to CF, and trade Rasmus. Please let me be wrong.
Actually, I misread a Goold tweet. Sorry.
He said, “Holliday to RF and Berkmam batting No. 2 ahead of Pujols?” I failed to notice the question mark.
Still, I think they have to move Holliday to RF.
don't remember where I read it
but Holliday has offered to move to right
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
i imagine the Ludwick taught him the secret rituals
before he had his showdown with darth vader
…wait.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
yep, I think he probably will
although with Tony Larussa, it is difficult to tell what will happen for certain
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
In the P-D story that ran today, it states that the Cardinals have yet to approach Holliday about moving to RF.
It immediately made me wonder if Holliday in RF is worth $103MM.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 5, 2010 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
You're taking someone who is generally ranked as an above-average left fielder.
Left field typically has the worst outfield defenders manning it, so shifting to right field would likely make him at least a below-average defender for the position, right? Of course, it could only be for a single year, and his offense will likely more than make up for it.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 5, 2010 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
that may change how much the metrics say he's worth
but it won’t change his value to the cardinals given a fixed roster
by brackenthebox on Dec 5, 2010 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
I don't really understand your point
There isn’t a really a difference in range between LF and RF – they have the same positional adjustment – so Holliday’s defense doesn’t really decline.
Are you saying that in a relative sense, he would get worse? That would only be the case if you believe the positional adjustments are wrong, in which case Holliday would get a bump up for moving to RF anyway.
I'm saying that the arm aspect of his UZR or Dewan +/- could very well take a hit,
and lower his value.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 5, 2010 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
In theory, position moves shouldn't affect WAR
The difference is estimated in positional adjustments. I think most of us would agree that extreme examples – like CF to C, or vice-versa – would require a significant adjusting period before the measurements would even be considered representative of talent level. LF to RF is one of the more lateral transfers out there.
as someone said before, hopefully this means Colby's UZR skyrockets in '11
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
At least we won't have to worry about him calling off anyone,
at least moving toward LF, because no one will be within his general vicinity.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 5, 2010 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
yep, lol
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
If RF or LF doesn't matter then why doesn't Berkman man RF ?
You fit into me
like a hook into an eye
a fish hook
an open eye
I lean toward him going to RF
Because he’s practically learning a new position already. I figure we might as well not force Holliday to make the adjustment, especially since it might only last a year.
shouldn't they have a throwing contest to determine who plays in right field?
seems appropo
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
it also said he said via text his offer from last season to move was still on the table
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
I share your fear
but that would be a terrible idea and I hope the FO and TLR understand that
by infallibleopiniongenerator on Dec 5, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
I wish the Rasmus fear/trade talk would subside
that is old news now, right?
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
I'm pretty sure it's been figured out that it would be all but impossible to recoup his value in a trade
that’s why boog is the new scapegoat
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
The rationale probably went something like this:
Mo: Look, Tony, Colby high-cieling, is low-cost, potential All Star at a premium defensive position. I don’t care if you said your daugther would look “smokin’ hot in the back of his El Camino,” I’m not trading him.
TLR: FINE, DAMN IT! But you’re giving me something! That little brat that plays middle infield…
Mo: Miles?
TLR: Yes. NO! Damn it, stop doing that!
Mo: Who do you mean then?
TLR: The one Strauss tells me all those web geeks like.
Mo: …Strauss reads?
TLR: They call him “boop” or “bones” or something. He’s the hyperactive one Carp wants to kill.
Mo: Boog? You mean Brendan Ryan? I don’t think Carp wants to kill him, just that…
TLR: Yeah, that’s him. If we have to keep Colby, get rid of him.
Mo: But, he’s game-changing defender. And the pitchers like him.
TLR: So get somebody who has charmisma to replace him. That riot guy or someone gritty.
Mo: Theriot? From LA? He IS gritty, Tony.
TLR: DO IT!
Mo: (realizing the old man won’t go away until he gets Theriot and a pudding cup) Fine. (to the secretary) Get me the Dodgers.
by dronemc on Dec 6, 2010 12:18 AM EST up reply actions 8 recs
where's my pudding cup dammit?
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
i'm thinking TLR could give a rat's ass about Strauss
and that he nevers reads his articles…
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 6, 2010 12:31 AM EST up reply actions
As to the Chief Craigen
John Jay can probably play all 3 OF positions. I like Jay as a 4th OF. And if Craig is 3B insurance/5th OF, he could see quite a few AB. John Jay+Berkman+Craig > Winn+Feliz+Stav (even if just barely)
One problem… Jay can’t hit lefties, Rasmus has trouble against lefties, Berkman had trouble against lefties. Our OF could be ineffective against LHP. Although, I can’t remember the last time where our entire team didn’t seem ineffective against LHP.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Craig strongest abilties is his ability to hit LHP
And did you see Colby’s OPS vs LHP last year? .810 OPS
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 5, 2010 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
yeah good point.
when i was typing that about Colby i was weary of it’s truthitude. Gracias for the correction.
Even so, i still expect several games next year of us being shutout by below replacement LHP…
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
so situation normal then?
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
In a perfect world,
Craig would start for Berkman and Theriot would start for Skip when we face a LHP.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
i actually would like that lineup fine
i prefer the version that will face RHP, but at least it’s not the death hole it was last year
A lot of folks saw/see Jay as a 4th OFer.
That being said, what are we basing decisions on? It feels like Ludwick was expendable due to the unsustainably hot streak Jay had upon his second call up. Then, after Jay predictably cooled off, We need an OF bat, so we sign Berkman. It seems really odd.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 5, 2010 11:12 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
the past year has been filled with curious moves.
many of the moves of 2010 seemed panicked and poorly analyzed.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
by SheckieZx on Dec 5, 2010 11:15 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
my words are still marked.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
because tlr of course
he was ready for the luddite to move on
the money was bs, as usual
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
why would it be just barely?
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
it's a head scratcher, for sure.
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
i couldn't help it
first thought was that picture needs some family guy
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Allen Craig
Hummm….
Interesting in that they are moving him back to 3B. Did Oquendo see something when working with him at the MLB level that the minor league guys did not see. Is this just a testament to TLR/MLB staff really liking Craig so they are thinking of a way to get him some AB’s this year.
Why was Craig taken off 3B anyway? He wasn’t really blocked by anyone was he? Was it because they were trying to work Mather in there at the minor league level.
Just odd
Because we had the trusted combo
of Aaron Miles and Pedro Feliz at the end of the year? :)
Speaking of Feliz, who’d we give up for him again?
i hope it was richard not karen.
by ADMDrayson on Dec 5, 2010 7:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
i hope it was richard not karen.
by ADMDrayson on Dec 5, 2010 7:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Because they just didn't think he could hack it there
and he’s also been described as having a noodle for an arm. I’m willing to see them try anything they can to get Craig some consistant ABs. I think if you give the guy a solid month of everyday play, he’ll start smashing the ball. Craig should be inserted into the 6 hole regularly, to drive in the walkapontomus.
Padres' RFL for GG!
i thought he had a good arm, he just had a bad throwing motion that they didn't like?
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
Miles also made throws that were, um, erratic while playing third.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 5, 2010 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
Craig, i thought that was why he was moved to the OF in Springfield
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
I can't believe Larussa wants anything to do with Craig
Mo puts him on the roster and Larussa sees himself as stuck with him. If Larussa wanted to play Craig at 3B, he would not have played Feliz over him.
the difference this year is
they’re not trying this during the middle of a divisional race. they’re instead trying this in ST, when it won’t really hurt the team. It would have been tough to expect much from Craig at 3rd last season, as he hadn’t played there in a while. couldn’t just insert him there and expect him to do well.
Padres' RFL for GG!
at least they won't have Feliz anymore
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
Feliz is a much better defensive 3rd baseman
that Craig could ever hope to be
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
who can hit like brendan ryan
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Not so sure I really want Craig at 3B with Puma in LF.
Seems like ready made triples to me.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 5, 2010 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
and theriot at short instead of ryan
ugly
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
I've always wanted to know how many tripled are hit to left field in an average season.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 5, 2010 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
Excellent post, Az
The long term direction is the big question, but 2011 looks like it should be better than 2010 offensively, and hopefully the pitching will be about the same. Defense, however, was a big culprit in under achieving last year and it will take a step backward if the Riot mans ss everyday. Mo keeps surprising this offseason, so let’s hope he’s not done. He at least has to come up with a backup catcher who TLR will be willing to play for 30-40 games (I’ve given up on TLR penciling Anderson’s name on a lineup card). Dioneer Navarro? Anybody got a better guess? Someone willing to be a backup for 1-2 mil.
On the bright side, the Puma move also shows the payroll is on the way up.
by vinniefromjersey on Dec 5, 2010 10:26 AM EST reply actions
...
Defense, however, was a big culprit in under achieving last year
as was base running. We gave away a lot of runs on the bases last year.
it will take a step backward if the Riot mans ss everyday
heh, describes the defense AND base running, too.
Padres' RFL for GG!
The lack of a playlist is not the only thing that many distinguish this from a Wed post
It was also posted at 8 in the morning
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 5, 2010 10:28 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
also lack of the words colour & favourite
also no toasters were harmed in the making of this post
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
and organisation
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
What happened to the Trade Rasmus...
momentum? Seems to have died…
Screw you, you freakin stats nerd
In TLRs name we pray
Amen
If Juan comes back to play baseball again, he'll be a Pirate.
by the.i.inmilesisencarnacions on Dec 5, 2010 10:31 AM EST up reply actions
Larussa is clearly running the show
If you are a manager a couple of seasons away from #2 all time in manager wins, Theriot and Berkman MIGHT be reasonable moves. That is assuming two declining players on the wrong side of 30 reverse their decline. To some extent, these are the sorts of players the Royals and other bad teams made a priority during all of their worst years—one fungible talent and one player whose name value now far exceeds his talent.
But as you point out, they do little to help us long term. And by taking playing time from younger players, they prevent the team from developing longer term solutions. And from Tony’s viewpoint, there is no long term. And that has been part of the team’s problem—let’s face it, putting up with a player like Rasmus’s growing pains so we can have him as an All-star in 4 years matters little to a manager who intends to be gone in 4 years. Tony wants proven players, and even proven declining mediocrities are superior to unknown players trying to learn—why try Craig at third base when you can get Pedro Feliz? Feliz may be terrible, but he won’t make the sort of rookie mistakes that Tony finds so infuriating. He will be a professionally, reliably, well executed terrible. A Feliz, Winn, or Miles can lend an air of professionalism to being sucky that a Craig can only aspire to.
Theriot? Well, he won’t get to as nearly many balls as Ryan, but he won’t be prone to those frustrating mental lapses that Ryan is prone to in the field. And at the end of the day, even if Ryan is two wins better with the glove, that can’t make up for his annoying Tony.
On the other hand, it is quite possible that all the playing time in the world may not ever make Ryan, Craig and Jay into a longer term solution. Would anyone be shocked if Ryan hit .225 next year given a full season of play? I’d expect him to hit better, but if he didn’t, that would not be a huge surprise, would it?
At the end of the day, if your farm system cannot produce clearly solid talent, you are prone to these problems. Whatever you say about the Berkman contract, I am glad Mo has enough clout to keep it at one year. 3 years and $21 million could have been fatal.
by tarakas on Dec 5, 2010 10:34 AM EST reply actions 5 recs
The farm...
can’t be expected to produce quality players at every single position… We’ve got org guys at 1b, 2b, 3b, SS (?), C, CF, SP, and three relievers. Plus we converted a first rounder and second rounder into Holliday. And the farm has delivered not just players but elite players (Pujols, Garcia, Molina, Rasmus, Craig).
Screw you, you freakin stats nerd
agreed, farm has been great in practice, just not rated high in magazines
..and if we had not bit on Derosa, it would look even better.
Just win
it involves the future, I think
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
I like to throw that in just to see if anyone is paying attention...
obviously no one is!
Screw you, you freakin stats nerd
he is infallible, after all
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
We are talking about the Cardinals, right?
I said the farm system was not producing clearly solid talent.
The org guys the Cardinals played at 2b, ss, and 3b had, per Fangraphs, WAR numbers of -0.2, 1, and 1.5 respectively. The highest number there is Freese, and he missed half the season, which is also a problem.
I’m sorry, but citing three players who between them averaged less than a win over replacement is not evidence that the farm system is producing solid talent. Those three were pretty much replacement level talent last year, which is a problem.
Pujols was produced long ago and is not terribly relevant to a discussion about the current farm system. And producing right handed middle relievers of various levels of quality is nice enough, but given the fungibility of relief pitching, not exactly how you build a team.
Garcia and Rasums, those have been nice, but not only has the system not produced a solid second baseman or shortstop in a decade, they don’t seem to have any in the system currently, either.
Molina, Wainwright, Boggs, Motte
Then compare that to the construction of other teams
And tell me we don’t have a farm the produces solid talent
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
to be fair
Wainwright is from the Braves system
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
I consider "produced" talent to be that which was grown
As opposed to miraculously acquired (Pujols) or imported via trade (Wainwright). People like Freese, for example – assumed a ceiling, got more than expected after MiLB development.
I like how Pujols is "miraculously acquired"
and the front office receives no credit for drafting him or promoting him rapidly.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 5, 2010 5:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
they do get some credit
but Pujols is a miracle and even the FO would admit this i think
by infallibleopiniongenerator on Dec 5, 2010 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
I think drafting gets chalked up to almost pure luck
They had 12 picks before him. I think it’s crapshoot territory in the double-digits.
Fast promotion, I’ll give them that FWIW. There was an injury at 1B, though, and I don’t know what the rest of the system looked like by then.
Personally, I’m most impressed by notable DEVELOPMENTS (was this, became that).
You have to compare to other teams...
our system produces a lot of talent. Freese and Ryan are “solid” talents – they just are. Sure one was injured and the other had a bad year, but Ryan was a four win player on a division winning team in 2009. You can’t just not take that into account when you tally up what the farm has produced.
And to discount Pujols, Wainwright, Garcia, Molina, Rasmus because none of them play second or short… Even Tampa Bay has to go outside the system occasionally.
Screw you, you freakin stats nerd
I disagree on Freese and Ryan
Most major league regulars are established at age 27.
Freese is 27 years old and has had exactly 0 seasons where he has shown he is a solid major league over the course of a season. Zero.
Brendan Ryan is 28 years old and has one season where he was a solid major leaguer. It was a season that was notably better with the bat than his minor league record would lead one to believe he is capable of. This is the Brendan Ryan who as a 25-year old put up a .668 OPS in AAA. If then you had to project him as a hitter in the majors, you’d project about what he hit last year. I like Ryan, but to be honest, looking at his minor league record, there is more evidence that 2010 is a more accurate indication of his true level of talent than 2009. He would not be the first player to have a fluky age 27 season.
Bo Hart had a surprisingly good year with the bat as a 26-year old. It didn’t make him a regular.
all from the previous "administration"
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
… matters little to a manager who intends to be gone in 4 years. Tony wants proven players, and even proven declining mediocrities are superior to unknown players trying to learn
I WANT to be encouraged that in some lights it would appear that, Mo has come to a realization that it will take having “proven” veterans around to satiate his manager’s zeal. My want to believe this is driven by a mind that looks at the two recent moves and likes them from the perspecitve that seems to show that they most improve the team if they are replacing Pedro Feliz, Aaron Miles and Randy Winn. Much has been said of the hand-wringing over Boog (and I wear my Boog tinted glasses firmly), but I feel that it bares meritt to suggest that using the acquisition of T. H. Eriot to justify the purge of Boog from the roster nullifies the benefits and effectiveness of the acquisition.
I’m Hoping that our G.M. is quite a bit more shrewd than what he lets on. My WANT is to believe that he looked at the circumstances that lead to Boog’s breakout 2009 and is attempting to replicate them in some minor semblance.
While Spinning.
How much were yours? 34 dollars. You know you got a pay raise... right?
now that right there is recerfic
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
excellent writeup!
I agree completely with your analysis and most importantly it was a joy to read…unlike someone elses writing.
Milt Thompson FTW!
what the fuck is that supposed to mean.
If you’re going to call someone out have the balls to do it, instead of this passive aggressive crap.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
by RiverRat on Dec 5, 2010 11:46 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
who is he talking about?
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, I have figured it out by now
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
well, it wasnt a joke
but coming straight out and saying DanUps goofy attempts at “prose” are taxing on my brain has gotten me destroyed in the past. It was just refreshing to read an article today that was written to get the points and facts and analysis across. Not written to impress a college english teacher. I love this site and have been a long time reader, just haven’t been a fan since DanUp took over with the bulk of the writting.
Milt Thompson FTW!
you're free to read any of the dozens of other cards blogs out there.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
i know i am
but whats the problem with expressing my opinion?
Milt Thompson FTW!
dan has said many a time that analysis is not his strong suit.
And making an underhanded comment at someone that puts the time and effort to k keep something fresh and entertaining out every day is just petty.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
by RiverRat on Dec 5, 2010 1:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Expressing your opinion is fine, although the way you did it was a little passive-aggressive.
If you’re a regular here, you probably understand that the reaction to Dan’s writing is usually overwhelmingly positive. So you probably also understand that you are in, as far as I can tell, a pretty small minority.
Swimming upstream should be the expected outcome here.
Too stupid and sissy-like to say that you want out.
You make the eyes of a million girls and think you'll make them shout.
by The Continental on Dec 5, 2010 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
I too miss the pre-danup days, but I also like the post-danup days
you should complain about larry leaving before chastising danup’s prose imo
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
errr, post-lboros days!!!
sorry!
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
prose is not the word you guys are looking for
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
Unless he's writing a poem, it's probably a type of prose.
DanUp’s prose and Az’s prose are vastly different.
I really like that DanUp's posts are like a VEB
word of the day calendar. I usually end up looking up and learning at least one new word a day (okay, I’m not that vocab challenged – more like once or twice a week, but still)
maybe i have misunderstod gossard22346's meaning
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
There are two types of writing:
prose and verse. Both contain many different styles. He just doesn’t like DanUp’s style.
my understanding
is that he has a problem with danup’s writing which is not prose. when he’s not doing poem’s or plays in one act, i don’t see how his style is all that different than az’ except for the quirky jokes
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
i blame ducttape for all this
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
duly noted, then.
I enjoy DanUp’s writing, and find the poetry witty and well done (e.g., the recent nod to AE Houseman).
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 5, 2010 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
you're entitled to that opinion
just understand that you’re in the minority. so, considering that and the fact that it’s december and az had a distinct fortune in that the cardinals made the biggest and most surprising free agent acquisition of the offseason, what’s your point?
if my point is not clear, i am saying that there’s not a whole lot to be said right now. i’m glad danup makes the effort to make something interesting to read instead of just telling me what i already know in prose
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
I kinda thought he was ripping on RB, since that's en vogue right now
just playin!
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
as Danup's publicist
I am not okay with this “trade danup talk”
besides, don’t we hand NTCs like candy nowadays?
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
it sounds like he was talking about Strauss
easy, guy
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
or not
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
like I say whenever this comes up
you’re welcome to dislike what I (or az or tom or the red baron) write, but doing it in the comments section, passive-aggressively or aggressive-aggressively, doesn’t do anything except start a really awkward meta-veb comment thread. send an e-mail or something.
I know people have different tastes—that’s why I’m glad the other authors are around. I wouldn’t read me seven days a week, either.
that's the best part of the site, is the variety of authors
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
this.
the difference in opinions, analysis, styles etc… is refreshing. It is great.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
I'm pleased to read it every day!
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
i imagined you saying this in "real customer" interview
on an informercial
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
you have quite the imagination
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
I love Viva El Birdos.
It’s much better than Cats.
I’m going to read it again and again.
Too stupid and sissy-like to say that you want out.
You make the eyes of a million girls and think you'll make them shout.
by The Continental on Dec 5, 2010 5:16 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Well, I WOULD read you 7 days a week
hell, even 8 days a week. I personally like your style, find it well-thought out and humorous. I think it’s difficult to do these one-act plays, and I appreciate not only the effort, but the general high quality of writing. I am not a stats-heavy, analyst reader or writer, and at my age, I’m not sure I can keep myself awake long enough to learn what all the acronyms mean. I get a general sense of the saberstats, but I more thoroughly enjoy the DanUp-style of writing. Thanks, DanUp, and glad you’re here in Colorado.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 5, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
DanUp himself has a lot of variety and styles
so if you don’t like the poems, etc, wait til he writes a very professional sounding pure sports article. also, if you don’t like the poem, go over and read him at the sbnation st louis site, since that’s more like how larry wrote imo.
I’m guessing though with larry as well as chuckb leaving, there are a lot of people that want more statistical analysis.
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, I really enjoy reading danup
but I do miss chuckb’s concise statistical analysis. I of course never knew the lboros days, but get the general sense of his writing and leadership
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
lboros was sort of a combination of danup and chuckb
but that doesn’t really do it justice. if you’re not doing anything, go back and read some of his articles.
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
A less than
tolerant view from me. I love coming to this site to read people talking about the Cardinals (not so much about the movies). I don’t know what compensation the contributors get (probably nothing), but my guiding principle has always been, I don’t criticize anyone unless I think that I can do it better. Sometimes I find this site a little more fractious than I would like, because to me, we are all in the same fan family. To all of the contributors, thank you for a great site!
by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Dec 5, 2010 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
exactly, send an email or STFU & GTFO
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
pro-Boog all the way
excellent piece by Azru. I quarrel, however, with the wording of the point made, “Theriot’s profile is more appealing [than Boog’s] to traditional baseball folks.”
I suppose it depends on what he meant by traditional. If by that he meant a heavy reliance on the basic ‘stats’ (e.g., for a shortstop on-base percentage and errors made, etc) with a stir-in of likeability (grit, personality) then I see the point, namely Theriot > Boog.
But to the extent that I qualify as an old-dog, traditional fan (though I am far more of the eyeball kind than a stat slave) I for one am SCREAMING to keep Brendan Ryan as the starting SS.
No question, I have to go back to the Wizard to remember anyone nearly as good defensively at that extremely KEY position.
Not that I am anti about the Theriot pick-up, but only as a platoon with Skippy at 2b, with the added fillip that it sends Miles packing.
These moves have to be considered excellent both in absolute and relative terms
In absolute terms, there really is no 2 WAR player with 4 WAR upside for a short term rental at reasonable rates. Even if we get 2010 Berkman, basically its a couple million overpay. If you consider the alternative which is throwing a couple million at Webb, or Harden or SMOLTZ! this has to be the best thing you could do for a few million enchiladas.
And the lineup now has a nice lefty/righty mix.
Presumably cooler heads will prevail on Ryan and he will become the late inning defensive replacement and starter of 30-40 games at SS when there is a LHP on the mound. Theriot again is probably the best cheap reliable starter you could get.
In relative terms, this is much better than an adam dunn or Beltre Signing which would have just guaranteed a different version of stars and scrubs. We now have shoved out winn, miles, larue, feliz, lopez, pagnozzi (collectively the 25th man group) and replaced them with Jay, Craig, Ryan, catcher-to-be-named, and rule 5 draftee/descalso. Not only is the starting 8 actaully capable of hitting up and down the lineup but we have bench strength. Now if they could move Schu to the bench for an upgrade at 2b, we’d really have a deep/versatile 12/13 position players
Just win
by The Duke on Dec 5, 2010 11:20 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Isn't he type A?
He’d cost us a first or second round pick, right? No thank you. That was one of the big advantages of getting Berkman, cost us no picks or prospects.
First off, Hudson isn't really a 3 WAR player
He’s averaged about 2.5 WAR the past 3 years, and is getting pretty old. He’s probably a 2 WAR player right now, and his upside is limited (because his offense has always been in the slightly below average to above average range, with the variance coming on the defensive side of the ball – and older players rarely ever return to defensive form).
Contrast that to Berkman, who is probably a 2.5 WAR player next year, and with much higher and more attainable upside.
Hudson still would have been better, but really not be a huge margin.
"Hudson still would have been better, but really not [by] a huge margin."
For 2011, I agree. For 2012+, I’m concerned about Craig’s OF development and not having a 2B.
I don't think Craig was gonna be a starter anyway
He’s 27 now, and has to be a fantastic hitter because he’s not a very good defender.
I don't think Craig rates to be a barn burner
But, a possible 2+ WAR with pop in RF is something I’d still like to have laying around. Berkman is a FA next year, so absent a move Craig/Jay will be our default again – except they’ll have a missed year of MLB seasoning.
a agree with you on Berkman
but to say that Theriot is better than Brendan Ryan seems a bit crazy
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
that said
if he has truly lost the starting shortstop role, I’d much rather see him stay on the team and be a utility/late inning defensive replacement. it just seems that most of our starters would benefit from ryan starting, and less so for the bullpen.
so maybe make Theriot the late inning offensive replacement?
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
he's a better hitter, but not by enough to push him out of the starting SS job
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
that's what I'm saying
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
exactly, has it ever been proven that late inning replacements for D or O work or don't work?
i thought a few years ago LB did a study showing the stats supported pulling some guys late in games over others
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
oh I'm sure that limiting player's playing time is beneficial
I wouldn’t just make Theriot a starter, I wouldn’t overplay Berkman. but it appears they may do just that
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
and instead, they'll limit rasmus's and boog's playing time
Craig’s appears to be dependent on Freese’s injury propensity.
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
TEAM DEFENSE
I cannot remember a Cardinal team being so weak defensively. Sure Berkman will look good at the plate and no one could be worse than Ryan. Schumaker is also probably going to have a better year offensively after he turned it around last year after getting off to such a slow start. So offensively this team looks better on paper, but the defense has to be a major concern.
Berkman is a good smart player who will probably catch everything that he can get his hands on but I would think that his range is going to be a huge problem. He is probably better suited for LF but I do not think that they will move Holiday to RF where he would obviously be exposed with his average arm. My guess is that Berkman ends up in RF and his defense has to be a concern.
Theriot would seem to be a nice addition if he was going to be a backup for 2B and SS. He certainly is no GG SS and he does not hit enough to justify a 2B job in my opinion. He needs to be the bench guy replacing Miles and that would be a good thing. He should not be the starting SS replacing Ryan.
In my opinion, the Cards still have the glaring problems that they had when the season ended and that is SS and 2B and while Berkman may be better offensively, he is certainly a defensive downgrade from Ludwick.
I dunno
should they roll out a great defensive team like last year’s (minus skip of course) or upgrade on offense? I’m kinda excited by the upgrades on offense, even if Berkman is only a slight upgrade over Ludwick, and we now won’t know how good the Jay/Craig platooon would have been over a full season
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
Their defense should be around average
Colby, Pujols, Yadier and Holliday are all above average on defense. Freese and Theriot should be close enough to average – only Skip and Berkman are going to be truly terrible defenders. Plus, Jay and Craig will be getting some playing time in Berkman’s place, and both a much better defenders than he is. And Ryan may still be on the roster and would provide amazing defense as a sub.
I would have to look, but the '06 Cards weren't great defensively.
An aging JED in CF, Duncan in the OF, Encarancion in the OF, Eckstein at SS, Miles got the most starts at 2B, and Speez getting time in the OF and at 3B. Of course, we did have Rolen at 3B and I remember So being good with the glove…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 5, 2010 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
and another thing
there is something going on above the neck with Tyler Greene. Not sure what it is, different than the Boog hold-back problems, but in effect similar. But my eyeball tells me that Greene is a break-out talent in the making (at Boog levels defensively with decidedly more pop in his bat)
This may have to be realized with another club, but I would hate to see us give up on him or see him flounder any longer in AAA.
My desired MIFs would be Boog, Theriot, Skip and Greene, crowded but Schu CAN play OF and I think Riot and Greene COULD, in a pinch
Tyler Greene
I agree with you that Greene seems to have the talent to be a good SS. They have said very little about him and that seems a bit odd in that they tried to move Ryan during the year last season in the Oswalt trade and that move if it had happened would have evidently made Greene their everyday SS. The Ryan trade did not happen and Ryan starting hitting better while Greene got hurt and that seemed to be the end of that. Makes me wonder if Greene might still be considered as an option. He is not ideal but I believe that he has more talent than Ryan and Theriot.
there was the injury / agent drama
but before that, Greene surprised me by choking up in areas I thought he had down pat. It would be reassuring if he played up to Tyler Greene levels.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
Tyler Greene has a legitmate shot at making this team in Spring Training
We still need a 4th MIFer
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 5, 2010 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
I do not get the feeling that the front office has a comprehensive vision for how to build a winning team. These moves strike me as a group divided against itself that is trying to cope with an internal power swing (yet again) and is grasping desperately for answers.
completely agree, AZ. with Westbrook, Berkman, and Theriot, they’re adding $20 million in payroll without solving the team’s most pressing problem -- the infield. it’s still full of question marks and stands a good chance of requiring midseason intervention for the third year in a row. could have accomplished more, for less money, simply by signing O Hudson and Tejada.
Uh oh...
…The Eye.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 5, 2010 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
hoo boy...
you had me until the last word of your post – Tejada. He’s toast. There are no realistic upgrades at short – better to just go with quantity and hope for the best (TGreene, Ryan, Theriot).
Screw you, you freakin stats nerd
I believe the formal name for that approach...
…is the Throw Shit at a Wall and Hope it Sticks technique. I could be wrong though…
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 5, 2010 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
well of course the problem with miggy
is that la russa would play him every day, instead of spotting him. but i mention him because he’s the type of player the cards should have been targeting, ie somebody who can legitimately play the infield and is likely to post a .750 OPS.
as it now stands the team is still going to be starting three .700ish hitters every single day - the two MIFs plus Molina. toss in the pitcher, and what you’re left with is an offensive sequence that only runs 5 spots long - same problem they faced last year. still don’t have any speed, still don’t have a leadoff man . . . .
maybe that's why they signed Berkman?
leadoff man. Plus, as mentioned above, he is going to be in the best shape of his life, so he can add speed too.
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
yes but the .700 ish guys will be hitting
in the best possible situations. Schu out against lefties, ryan out against righties, when freese is hurt we get Craig and not Lopez. Spot starters in 2011 are WAY better than last year so the lineup won’t be godawful on days we start a bench player.
I’m assuming the backup catcher will be an upgrade and it’s still possible they try to upgrade completely with Schu and bring in a leadoff hitter (although how they would do this is unknown) which I agree is the real need on this team.
In theory our number #2 hitter will be on on-base machine in front of albert so the top 5 will be (much?) more productive than last year.
I don’t buy the payroll arguement either. Berkman is better than Luddy (caveat on health for both of them), Westbrook will be better than Penny and likely healthier) and Theriot is better than Lopez (ok, a bit more expensive).
Just win
The five man lineup...
sounds pretty bad, but it could be passable.
In 2008 we scored 779 runs while carrying ops of 635, 711, and 754 at the three MIF positions.
In 2006 we scored 782 with a 605, 701, and 711.
In 2010 we scored 736 with a 600, 671, and 679. What really killed us was the 655 from our third basemen. The thing about 2011 is that our top four are going to be awesome. We just get a 750 at third we’ll score 780 runs or more.
Screw you, you freakin stats nerd
it might work out
if berkman puts up an .850+ OPS and isn’t a complete butcher in LF, maybe this will succeed. hopefully so. but i still agree with AZ’s point -- there’s an impulsive shoot-the-moon quality about this set of moves that suggests some muddled thinking. instead of placing cheap long-range bets on their homegrown players -- which was supposedly the new organizational approach -- they’re placing expensive short-term bets on other teams’ veterans who a) have to bounce back from off years at the plate, and b) have to play defensive positions they’re not exactly suited for.
well I think part of that is the dawning realization that
some of our past drafts didn’t make the “homegrown” model feasible. Craig, Jay, Schumaker, Greene, Ryan – these are all okay players who can contribute at the major league level, but they’re probably never gonna contribute at a high level. And our system is looking completely barren of any potential MIFs, isn’t it (unless Cox has a future at 2B). It seems we had some very poor drafts for a couple years and those are playing a part in creating this scattershot approach and playing a big part in dictating the moves we have to make.
agreed re the middle infield
they definitely needed to go outside the organization to fill that need. but they could have filled the OF need internally, either by shifting schumaker back to RF (and signing a real 2bman) or by letting jay/craig time-share out there. the offense wouldn’t be quite as gaudy is it might be with berkman, but it would be a more well-balanced team. the team as now constituted doesn’t seem well balanced to me.
I don't have a problem with a Ryan-Theriot MI
And it’s still technically possible, with our current roster.
I’d definitely have preferred Hudson over Berkman, though.
It all gets back to La Russa's assessment of Schumaker...
Skip is the obvious guy to replace – he’s a light hitting MIF and he’s terrible defensively. The Berkman money would have been better spent on Hudson – Hudson over Skip is a bigger upgrade than Berkman over Jay/Craig. But of course replacing Skip doesn’t even seem to be on the table.
Screw you, you freakin stats nerd
that's the most frustrating part of the team
must be embarrassing to be skip
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
not fair
Skip is only so bad because he is playing out of position, something the organization asked him to do and he bent over backwards to accommodate. Any failure of Skip’s at 2b is on the org, not him. He’d be unspectacular but generally okay if used properly – as a fourth outfielder.
what I meant by that is, anyone who is given preferential treatment in a team atmosphere must be embarrassed, at least to some extent
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
meh. skip was not good enough defensively to be a CF
And not good enough offensively to hack it at a corner spot. Skip really doesn’t have the skillset to start anywhere.
"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."
by tom s. on Dec 5, 2010 3:05 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
he just isn't that good
is aaron miles a good player comp?
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
well, is he?
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, miles is older
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
schu hits better but miles is more versatile
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
you can't call someone versatile
if they suck at all three positions they play at
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
Skip would be suck OF as well
League average at best hitters who can’t play center and not valuable.
this is why i have always wanted him off my team
Fire John Mozeliak up a nice steak, or stake ( haven't decided)
+1
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
maybe they just dont have faith in the in house people
whats the harm in that?
We do still have them, right?
leadoff is a big concern for me
but couldn’t a skip/theriot platoon do reasonably well? freese/craig feels like a timebomb, and if theriot really is our everyday SS, that feels like an experiment ready to fail as well.
I don't understand the apparent longing for a dogmatic philosophy in "building a team"
The hope to be able to cram every move the team makes into a simplistic narrative — either “building from within” or “win now using imported veterans” — is one I don’t share, nor would I wish the Cards to be constrained by such a narrative.
I expect the FO to make a combination of moves over time that gives us the best chance to win now and to compete in the future – a core of homegrown top-tier players (Pujols, Molina, Wainwright), young players on their way to stardom (Rasmus, Garcia) or that can fill roles cheaply (Ryan, Jay, Freese), and valuable veterans — both short-term stopgaps with upside (Berkman, Westbrook) and big ticket FA signings (Holliday) — that all combine to form a winning team. Indeed, this is the definition of a “comprehensive vision” (i.e, inclusive and all-encompassing).
Further, one can easily (and better) argue that the moves decribed (Ludwick/Westbrook, Theriot/Ryan/Schumaker, Craig getting more time at 3B), show flexibility and foresight, not a lack of it.
As it stands, I think the Cards probably have the best starting rotation, best outfield, best 1B, and (perhaps) the best catcher in the NL. We have 3 MIF who can defensively play SS (Ryan, Theriot, and Greene), a viable platoon at 2B (Schumaker/Theriot), and multiple options at 3B (Freese, Craig, Greene, and even Ryan or M. Carpenter if needed).
The team could have an all-offense lineup — Schu, Berkman, Pujols, Holliday, Rasmus, Craig (3B), Theriot (SS), Molina, Pitcher.
Or it could have an all-defense one — Theriot (2B), Jay (RF), Pujols, Holliday (LF), Rasmus, Greene (3B), Molina, Ryan (SS), Pitcher.
Or any combination in between, including Craig hitting against tough LHP for Berkman, Jay and Ryan coming in for defensive purposes, etc. Moreover, the team is well-protected in case of injury — Berkman replaces Pujols or Holliday, Jay/Craig replace Berkman, Craig/Greene replace Freese, Theriot/Ryan/Greene manning SS or 2B, Jay replaces Rasmus, etc.
In sum, I disagree that there is much support for azru’s argument that this team is making disjointed or arbitrary descisions or grasping desperately for answers.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 5, 2010 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
asking a 34-year-old sore-kneed 1b/dh
to play 120 or so games in the outfield - after he played fewer than 100 there over the last 5 seasons combined -- does seem just a little bit desperate, no?
by lboros on Dec 5, 2010 1:26 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Seems an unreasonable shot at Tony
Adding one of the best hitters in majors shouldn’t be a reason to rip the manager even if he lobbied for it.
Frankly if it reeks, it reeks of DeWitt and Mo planning for a scenario B if Pujols doesn’t sign. If Albert chooses to move on, they extend Berkman for three years and stick him at 1B in 2012. From that perspective, I find it a brilliant approach and if the cost of that is Berkman in LF for one season, count me in.
Just win
I'm happy with the move insofar that I believe Berkman will be a good hitter and the financial cost is low.
But the veteran-ness of the move and the out-of-position-ness of the move… How is that NOT Tony?
As a back-up plan for Albert, Berkman’s hitting will be the key to whether we see eye-to-eye on that. Dude ain’t getting younger.
when should we start giving Mo credit for roster moves?
And what would be a “Mo move”?
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
I'm happy with the part where it's a one-year deal and that it's relatively cheap.
Mo gets all the credit for that, for sure.
but signing him to primarily be an OF is Tony's portion of the signing?
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
haha
That they sought out a player who hasn’t really played the outfield in 5+ years is the Tony part. What other team would sign Berkman to play the OF?
I don't know who would. he does seem better suited for DH
There is plenty of evidence that TLR has a strong influence on FO moves. It just seems like VEB (or individuals VEBers) will congratulate Mo for roster moves they like. but if there is a unpopular move, or an aspect that VEB (or individual VEBers) doesn’t like, it “reeks of Tony”
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
by SheckieZx on Dec 5, 2010 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i was just saying that as a generality
it’s always been a pet peeve of mine. i’m starting to believe that both Mo and TLR have a strong preference for gritty proven vets with proveyness that comes from years of proven gritty play.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
word. i agree with this.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Counter-example
The Lohse deal was unpopular around here from day one, and I don’t think anyone chalked it up to TLR.
yeah
that was a Dave Duncan demand
by infallibleopiniongenerator on Dec 5, 2010 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
I like your drumming
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
a Mo move would be to do a questionable trade for a player that there is a positional need for
then to sign that player in the next offseason to a decent contract
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
acquiring the worst-hitting player in the major leagues
to man 3B was also a Mo move.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
there is that mentality (of taking responsibility for ones actions)
there’s also the mentality that realizes that Mozeliak has to deal with a very demanding manager that at times can seem even spiteful. so him being responsible and wanting to keep his job and doing what people want him to do, such as sign Feliz, would make sense, no? you can say that since he is the guy making the moves, you can blame him. but do you think he would have signed Feliz without TLR as manager? I kinda doubt he would. and if he would, he is a sucky GM
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
i highly doubt TLR pushed for Feliz specifically
I don’t doubt TLR pushed for an upgrade at 3B.
I couldn’t help but to think the “Feliz Fiasco” was just a series of “f*ck yous” being traded back and forth.
Mo: Tony wants to keep pushing for this 3B… i’ll sign Feliz. F*ck you.
TLR: Mo signed Feliz? I’ll bat him fifth! ALOT!!! F*ck you!
Hopefully this is not true.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
the only way the Feliz thing makes any sense is if Tony demanded a player with experience
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
you have to admit though
that he was probably badgered for days that he needed to get somebody by TLR
and somebody he did get…
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
I don't see what is the big deal with this every time it comes up
All managers have at least some input into roster construction, and a manager who has been around as long as Tony has will have more say than most. To think that Tony doesn’t have considerable sway is just naive.
Fire John Mozeliak up a nice steak, or stake ( haven't decided)
now look back at me
matt holliday is now diamonds!
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
by prophetjohn on Dec 5, 2010 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 11 recs
he peaked at a .893 Fielding %
Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have? Frank Chance 1908
also 70 errors in 220 A/A+ games
Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have? Frank Chance 1908
holy shit
that’s bad…
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 6, 2010 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
It may well help with the (probably overblown) "show Pujols they're committed to winning" thing as well.
This sure seems like a move that Albert would like.
Too stupid and sissy-like to say that you want out.
You make the eyes of a million girls and think you'll make them shout.
by The Continental on Dec 5, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
oh this shit again
signing berkman in no way relates to Pujols’ future contract
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
IT'S A CONSPIRACY
involving Elvis and large pumas, among other things
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
I
agree so much with this view. And everyone is begging the question that is plaguing me, what is going to happen with Albert? Do we need an icon, and no playoffs, or get into the playoffs? With the money that we will have to pay him, we could have 4 guys that would collectively have more WAR and for the same or less money.
by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Dec 5, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
the Albert contract
supposedly is in talks this month
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
No we could not sign 4 guys who will collectively have more WAR with Pujols contract
Unless Pujols contract is truly ridiculous. If he’s making 25 million a year, there is no way we could replace 7 WAR a year with that on the free agent market.
Even if we could, it’s definitely better to have 1 player worth 7 WAR than 4 players worth a combined 7 WAR.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 5, 2010 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Do you think
that it is going to be $25m? I think that it will be more than that. And, why is 1 guy at 7 worth more than 4 at $7? When I said that I was thinking payroll. If you have 4 for that amount of $, doesn’t that leave you more to spend on the rest of the team, instead of on 1 guy, and therefore field a better team?
by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Dec 5, 2010 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
Because there's only 9 positions on the field.
If you have one guy worth 7 WAR, you have 8 other spots that you can fill with value.
If you have 4 guys worth a total of 7 WAR for the same money, you only have 5 more spots to fill with value.
Let’s just assume that every other player on the field is worth 1 WAR:
- Star and Scrubs approach: 7+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 = 15 WAR
- League avg 4 plyr approach: 2+2+1.5+1.5+1+1+1+1+1 = 12 WAR
That’s basically the scenario. Remember, you’re spending the same amount on player A as you are on players B,C,D, and E that you’re replacing him with, so it’s payroll neutral.
The more high impact players you have, the more value you can add because of the amount they are worth just by themselves.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Forgot to add
In this scenario, you would have to extract 4 more wins out of your dollar for those 4 players in order for this to work out in the best interest of the club.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
wouldn't 25m buy cliff lee and orlando hudson?
That’s 7 WAR, easily.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 6, 2010 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
25 million would get you most of the way to Cliff Lee
Certainly not both, and Lee is not a 7 WAR player going forward.
"Most of the way"????
you really think Lee is getting north of $25m?
I’d be pretty surprised if he gets more than $18m/yr, personally. And pretty much everyone here is assuming we can get Hudson for the same price we paid for Berkman. I’d say those two are probably somewhere in the region of 6-8 WAR, depending on how you project them.
I’d say a good GM ought to be able to get close to 7 WAR with $25m to burn, simply because the WAR/$ value (seemingly about $5m per WAR this year) is skewed by people doing stupid things like paying Ryan Howard $25m for his age 33-38 seasons, and going well over the market value for Jayson Werth.
Alternatively, look at it this way – Berkman and Westbrook-type talents cost in the region of $8m/yr, so you could get three of them for $25m. You’ve said yourself that Berkman is probably a 2.5-3 WAR player. Three of them would be 7-9 WAR.
I’m not arguing that having three 2.5-3 WAR guys is as valuable as having one Albert Pujols (personally, I’d rather have Pujols, as we seem to have plenty of 1-2 WAR backup types floating around), but I think you can probably get that sort of value on the open market for $25m.
I’m really torn on Albert – I kinda want him to stay but the values that are being thrown around seem kinda crazy to me. I think there’s pretty much zero chance we sign him to a contract with a likelihood of surplus value, ergo I suppose you could say I’m in favour of either not signing him (if there’s significant competition) or trading him. But then, of course, there’s the sentimental side of me that wants him to retire a Cardinal…
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 7, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
It is, of course, reasonable to question whether the Berkman signing will pan out...
especially given the concerns you raise. But the risk is priced into the deal and the reward could be substantial. And I don’t consider deals where the risk and reward are proportional to be “desperate” (and in this case, I think the reward outweighs the risk and then some). Here, the downside is especially minimal, since if Berkman gets injured (the real risk in this deal), the team can fall back on the Jay/Craig platoon. The risk that a healthy Lance Berkman, after 10 years of .900 OPS hitting, will suddenly and completely fall off a cliff is minimal IMO — and again, it’s priced into this short-term contract. (Moreover, if that’s one’s main concern, they should run screaming from a long-term Pujols deal)
But again,
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 5, 2010 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
The
Pujols deal conundrum is what preys on my mind. Do we need an icon and never see the playoffs? Bernie M wrote an article awhile ago, don’t blame it on Albert. Fine. But if the payroll is limited, Albert’s salary dictates that we have lesser beings elsewhere. So, is Albert worth it? For his future $28m or whatever, we could have a stable of guys that surpass his WAR. Please correct me if I have an improper perspective on this. As an irrational fan, getting to the playoffs is the objective, no?
by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Dec 5, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
as a player, the objective is to get as much money as possible
most of the time…
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
and
as a fan, the objective is to watch a winning team, right?
by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Dec 5, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
that's secondary unless you are a desperate aging veteran
Pujols is not that
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
So
Albert will be going for $ right? As an aside, why do we have a salary limit (whose?) of around $ 100m or so, and the Phillies can go for $142, and Cubs for $146? Of course, they have somewhat more gross revenue – Phillies – $233m, Cubs – $246m, Cards – $195m. But does that let them have those payrolls, and we are stuck were we are?
by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Dec 5, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
at least in part because our stadium is 4 years old
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
But
are we making payments on it?
by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Dec 5, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Who cares if it's desperate? Just because it's unorthodox doesn't mean it's not a good move.
The guy is a very good bet to have a .380 wOBA next year. That would mitigate any defensive shortcomings.
He's also a very good bet to play less than 100 games due to injury from running around out there
and get replaced defensively in at least 30 of those games after the 7th inning.
He’ll probably give Albert the occasional day off, but marginally, Jay/Craig platoon in RF along with true upgrades at two of the 2B/SS/3B positions will probably result in more wins.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Perhaps
I think it’s a subjective distinction either way, though. With a vaguely moderate amount of luck, a Skip/Greene 2B combo is probably worth about 1 WAR, and Boog is probably an average shortstop. Honestly, I think you can probably say that the likely production of Jay/Craig in RF is pretty similar to what we’re expecting out of SS, 2B or 3B, and I think we can probably say Berkman’s value in the OF is probably similar to what (say) Hudson would do at 2B (I think both are likely to have a median around about 2-2.5 WAR, with Hudson having a higher floor and Berkman having a higher ceiling). So overall I’d say it’s a bit of a push.
Personally, I got more frustrated with the crappy hitting than the crappy infield defense last year, so I’m going to side with the Berkmanites on this one, but I can see the argument that not having to watch Skip boot balls for the whole season at 2B might improve your Cardinals fandom experience as well…
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 7, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
Thing is, I fully expect the latter combo of players to be healthy
I just can’t count on Berkman to stay healthy for a full season in the outfield. Call it subjective, but his age and recent injury history (and weight gain) would suggest that he’s not built for that. He’s not cut from the gym like Reggie Sanders.
Also, we could do the Skip/O-Dog/Ryan/Jay/Craig thing for about $12M less than the Berkman/Theriot thing, so if it’s a push in terms of value, than it’s advantageous from a payroll perspective.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
O-dog will play for free???
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 7, 2010 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
I agree the org is divided against itself
Hudson could have been a good acquisition but with less upside than Berkman. Tejada is pretty awful though.
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think a Berkman deal has more upside than a Hudson one would have
- Replaces Skip with a perennial 3-WAR player
- Shores up 2B for multiple years
- Rates to cost well below WAR market (most recent contract: 1YR/5MM)
- Allows regular development of Craig in RF
Can Berkman out-hit Hudson? Sure. Have a higher WAR ceiling? Sure. But in terms of total impact on the team – both next year and in following ones – I don’t see how it’s a superior signing.
actually I think the upside is about equal
without going into detailed analysis because I’m too lazy, I’d say Hudson is probably like a 2-3 win upgrade over Skip, and that’s around where I’d peg the upside for Berkman over a Jay?craig platoon. Obviously I’m being very general, but I think the difference in marginal wins added would be quite minimal.
I agree that the 2010 WAR difference rates to be about equal
Push in 2011, loss for 2012+.
Imagine having 2B covered, probably having it covered cheaply, and having a firmer understanding of where Craig fits in the organization (ideally as a cost-controlled, big-bat corner OF).
I still think Skip is good for in between 1-2 WAR
so he’s only a 1.5ish WAR upgrade whereas Berkman’s median projection WAR from what I’ve heard is 3 WAR which is kind of the same situation
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
with Theriot
they can bench Skip if he sucks. I’m just not sure they would do that
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
Skip’s career-high WAR is 2.3, in 2008, as an OF. Since then, 1.5 (with a BABIP-fueled offense) and most recently -0.2. I think closer to 1 is the safe bet.
I don’t think it would be hard for a platoon-powered Craig (bat) / Jay (glove) combo to be worth 2 WAR in RF. Berkman would need to be worth 4+ WAR to equal the projected upgrade Hudson would offer over Skip, and even if that happens we’ve likely got an under-developed and position-confused Craig and another hole at 2B in 2012.
I mean
operating under the assumption that they are keeping skip at second base, the berkman move makes a lot of sense. but yeah, it would make a lot MORE sense to sign Hudson. but maybe there’s something about Hudson we don’t know?
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
I want
Arthur Rhodes. If we have $8m to give to Lance B, why can’t we get a real LOOGY? Tallet scares me.
by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Dec 5, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
Rhodes would have been nice, but in all likelihood he will remain in Cincy
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
I like it if (as) we're forced to use skip
I think it’s an upgrade. I just think there was a much better team upgrade available.
I would have preferred Hudson, but Berkman is hard to complain about imo
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
Not complaining about the signing
I do complain that it’s not a planned Berkman/Craig RF platoon, though. I think that’s the way to get the best out of Berkman AND Craig, and we could do it without changing our roster.
hey
I do complain that it’s not a planned Berkman/Craig RF platoon
it’s december 5th
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
Yep, and I'm complaining on December 5th
I can only comment on what is known to be the plan, and as best I can tell it’s to play Berkman every day and make Craig Freese’s backup. Craig needs development if he has a future, and Berkman is aging, defensively dubious, and doesn’t mash LHP. I think it’s a great platoon situation.
and i think if freese is healthy
and berkman is futile against LHP, craig will get some of those at bats
if freese is not healthy, what better 3B option do you have?
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
it remains to be seen how effective Craig will be at playing 3B
Tyler Green might end up being a better option (though I would say, it’s about 50/50)
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
which is why we need to wait and see
it’s silly to complain about lineup construction in december
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
exactly
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
Shall we shut down comments until April, then?
I don’t see your point. I’m not extrapolating anything, I’m commenting on the plans as we know them to be. That is all that can be reasonably discussed, at this point.
lineup construction is the only thing to discuss?
you know exactly what i mean. there’s no point in discussing a TLR lineup card the day before the game. let alone in december. you’re free to discuss whatever you want, but i’m also free to point out that the situation is predicated on the most dynamic thing in the world: tony la russa’s lineup permutations
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
Then frame it that way
“Ya never know, it’s Tony.” as opposed to including me in we, telling us what we need to do, or that talking about the most recently-stated plan is silly.
I think it's safe to say
that Berkman will get days off against lhp, as surely TLR doesn’t want to risk the man’s knees in June when we’ll need them in November
by infallibleopiniongenerator on Dec 5, 2010 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
this is probably the best defense of platooning berkman
get him off his legs and sitting on the bench as often as possible
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
Rest + Craig dev is my primary argument
I think a 108 wRC+ is just fine against LHP, it’s the other stuff that makes it add up to a sub-optimal decision for me.
Oh that's funny
I was just talking to your mom, and she said the same thing about you
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
i missed where you pointed out the rest thing
it’s definitely a valid concern. but i think giving craig the most ABs possible is the best thing for his development. and the short side of a platoon only fulfills that if he’s not able to man 3B regularly
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
That's the thing
IF Berkman is FUTILE against LHP. That’s not a plan, that’s a reaction. For his career, Berkman only has a 108 wRC+ against LHP. And then there’s his general situation.
As for 3B, I’d bet on Greene over Craig at this point.
my prediction
Berkman does well for a month or two, gets injured, then comes back at the end of the season to rake through the playoffs
/random
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
is he actually going to come back at the end of the season to make it through the playoffs?
or is the medical staff just going to say that in august?
Save Boog
yep, he'd actually make it back
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
you're not making any sense
it’s a decision structure. i can make you a flow chart if you want
you seem to be arguing against having more than one plan for more than one scenario. like being able to react to changing circumstances is a bad thing
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
You're not being civil
I’m not opposed to contingency plans, or prepared reactions. I am opposed to plans which I think rate to be worse than others, such as playing Berkman every day as opposed to platooning him with Craig.
I try to judge decisions based on whether or not I think they were sound ones at the point they were made, not whether or not they happened to roll Yahtzee or crap out.
my point is
craig playing 3B is a contingency plan for freese not being healthy. lnace berkman is a career .340 wOBA hitter against LHP. and that’s dragged down by a supposedly injury plagued 2010 and maybe 2009. prior to that, he’s been around .350 throughout his career.
the only scenario where craig is going to get significant playing time at 3B is if freese is injured. so, if freese is injured, you seem to be suggesting that we should still be platooning berkman out of the gate and sticking someone like tyler greene, .330 wOBA best case scenario, at 3B just so that berkman can be platooned. the entire signing of berkman was an exercise in optimism that he can bounce back to something resembling his career norm. i think he deserves a chance to do that against LHP. especially if freese is injured.
the way i see it, it’s a matter of whether berkman hits LHP better than tyler greene. if not, you’re taking the bat out of craig’s hands by platooning berkman on day one
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
I think it's a bad contingency plan
I think his future rates higher as RF of the future (e.g. 2012), not 3B of the future. I would prefer that he regularly play RF in winter, spring, and season rather than prepare to be a backup 3B and PH.
IF Freese is injured, I would look at both Greene and Craig. That’s Plan B. Absent that – Plan A – I think Berkman should be platooned right out of the gate.
craig is as good as he's going to get in the OF
he might benefit some from being out there all season than moving around as he’s needed. but what’s most important for his development is that he is swinging the bat against major league pitches as often as possible.
if freese is healthy, craig goes back to the outfield and plays it roughly as well as he did last season. if freese is injured, it’ll be pretty nice that craig had those reps at 3B instead of shagging balls in the OF
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
I don't presume to know he's peaked at RF
There are no starting positions available to him at present, so I think the best way for him to swing as much as possible is in a RF platoon – formerly with Jay, presently with Berkman.
I would be fine with him handling both 3B and RF in practice, but I think a RF platoon is still the best plan for the team.
assuming freese is healthy, i agree
assuming freese is injured, i disagree
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
sort of like schroedingers cat
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
Freese is expected to be ready for ST
So that is the thing upon which I would base a primary plan (RF platoon).
On the secondary plan – Craig 3B + Berkman RF versus Greene 3B + Berkman/Craig RF – I think the value is closer, and thus of lower concern.
what i remember
was at the time of his surgery it was said that the recovery period does not necessarily imply that he will even be ready for ST. i think mo has since said that he’s progressing nicely and that they project him as the opening day starter, but i’m inclined to wait and see
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
heh
i’d rather hear something from the FO and more ideally, from a medical professional
freese’ statements don’t really mean anything to me. what’s he gonna say? “yeah, this shit hurts. it’ll probably be june before i see a major league pitch”?
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
I think it's largely irrelevant
I assume that he’ll be ready, but would make plans for both scenarios. You assume that he won’t be ready, but would also make plans for both scenarios.
O. Hudson has a career 90 wRC+ against LHP
I guess you would agree then that Orlando Hudson is even MORE FUTILE against LHP.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 5, 2010 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
nice
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Neither players are futile against LHP
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Versus LHP
I think Craig rates to be more valuable than Berkman, especially considering the value of rest. Then there’s the fact that Craig would be more developed.
I’m happy enough with a 108 wRC+ against LHP, but concerned about mileage, defense, and player development.
We don't really know that, though
Like pj said… it’s December 5th. These platoony things sort themselves out pretty quick during the season
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Craig is more valuable than Berkman against LHP
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
hmmm
probably
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
Berkman has a modest (108 wRC+) history against LHP, is 35, playing out of position, and coming off a range-impacting knee injury.
Craig is not injured, bats and throws right, and has hit well at the MiLB/AAA level. minorleaguesplits.com is unfortunately down, but since reverse platoon splits are a practical myth I’d presume that his LHP numbers are even better than his aggregate.
That evidence indicates to me that Craig would do better on average than Berkman against LHP.
those are valid concerns
and if freese is healthy, you have to get craig at bats somehow. assuming craig is every day 3B, i think berkman deserves the benefit of the doubt against LHP.
simply stated, i have a feeling that (berkman and craig) > ((berkman or craig) and greene)
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
If Freese is out
I think I’d still lean toward Greene at 3B and Berkman/Craig in RF, mostly on dual player development. I’d guess it as close in terms of single-season WAR between that and Berkman in RF and Craig at 3B.
Freese isn’t (yet) injured, though, so that is just a contingency. I think either would work. Given the state of things right now, I think the best plan is a RF platoon.
actually
freese is injured. it’s a matter of whether or not he’s ready on april 1. that’s not yet known
if he does prove healthy and ready to go on day 1, then you have to get craig at bats. if freese isn’t ready, then a LF platoon is just taking the bat out of the hands of one of the top-10 hitters of the last decade so that tyler greene can get more at bats
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
I don't think there's much disagreement
Healthy Freese: we both agree on a RF platoon, right?
Injured Freese: I soft-lean Greene at 3B, would be fine with Craig – you strong-lean Craig at 3B.
i think that's a good assessment
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
nothing will be that simple though
we’ll probably see berkman in right and left, craig is now going to be playing for his life to be effective as an infielder, and they still might waste money on a catcher who is not as good as bryan anderson
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
I think that the Hudson move would have been a more prudent one
more likelihood to improve the team, at least modestly. but if Berkman is not in decline phase, and is limited to less than a full season in the outfield (I’m guessing Hudson would’ve been as well), I like the chances he improves the offense by quite a bit (particularly because of his on base percentage).
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
You're of course entitled to your opinion, but it's a statistical guess to say that
Berkman plus Skip/Theriot is a marginal WAR downgrade from Craig/Jay plus Hudson.
Hudson has been worth from 1.5 to 3.1 fWAR the last three years, so “perennial” 3 WAR player is a bit much. (Berkman might as well be a perennial +6 WAR player since he’s done it 6 times before). Hudson’s defense has fluctuated between -14.7 UZR/150 to +12 in those 3 years as well. Hudson is also almost 33 y/o (older than Skip or Theriot) and his wOBA has gone from .358 to .342. to .320 the last three years, a troubling trend for a middle infielder.
It’s not hard to come up with a reasonable scenario where a Skip/Theriot platoon at 2B comes close to meeting O-Dog’s production. Likewise, it’s not hard to come up with a reasonable scenario where Berkman blows a Jay/Craig combo out of the water.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 5, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
the other thing is, do you want two years of old player A, or one year of old player B
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
His career average WAR per 600 PA is 2.67
He hit 3.1 in 2010, and 2.9 in 2009. I don’t consider him old enough to be especially suspect, so that’s close enough for me to call it perennial – but fair enough, perspectives differ.
A Skip/Theriot or straight up Theriot 2B would be a great improvement over straight up Skip to me, but we’re still going to be looking for a 2B (and perhaps resigning Skip…) in 2012.
I don’t intend to frame it as fact, just projection. But that’s all I can have.
but his last two year's worth of data stem from, in one case,
A high defensive value, after years of below average performance, and in the other a lucky offensive year. I would wager rthat hudson is closer to 2 WAR than 3 in 2011.
"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."
by tom s. on Dec 5, 2010 5:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Like I said, fair enough
Call it 2.5, even call it 2. I’d still take that over Skip – especially at O Hudson pricing – and be happy to have the bleeding at 2B stopped for more than 6 months.
I hadn’t looked up Skip’s splits for a while, but he’s currently riding a career 43 wRC+ versus LHP over 370 PAs. Man, what a difference just a platoon could make.
he has been pretty much platooned for a while
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
Looks like about 100 PAs per year against LHP
That does seem below-average in terms of facing LHP to me.
Anyone know where I could look up the average for facing handedness?
Looked at Utley's stats
I figure he’s facing more than his fair share of lefties, since the Phillies won’t be pinch-hitting for him and opposing teams will want an edge when they can get it. Looks like he’s facing about 200 PAs worth of lefties per 700 PA season, to Skip’s roughly 100 per 550.
not sure why everyone sees Hudson as some "long term" solution at 2B
given his age and position, it’s not implausible he’ll fall off a cliff any time soon. I don’t think I’d trust him to be a useful 2B much beyond this year.
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 6, 2010 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
Mo was on record saying that he wasn't thrilled with the MI options, and that it might have been easier to upgrade at right field
Considering the low cost/few years, I’m inclined to agree. Any significant MI signing (other than Hudson, I suppose), would’ve cost prospects
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
the only thing that I can think of is that they were wearisome about Hudson because he's had a wrist injury
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
leery, maybe
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
ah
that’s the word I am looking for
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
Isn't Jeff Suppan getting 15 starts last year a much bigger problem than the infield?
You can never have too much starting pitching. I disagree that the Westbrook signing didn’t fill a massive void. The Theriot trade was an attempt to help the MIF problem – it’s not Mo’s fault he’s an idiot and think’s that Ryan should be the one replaced instead of Skip.
And yeah, the Berkman deal didn’t fill hole persay, but it replaced a 1.5 WAR combo with a 2.5 WAR player with incredible upside. I mean I would have liked to see us get Uggla, but other than that, this offseason looks pretty good to me so far.
well
Berkman was a 1.1 WAR last year, and Theriot was a 0 WAR. I am not as sanguine about it as you seem to be. Especially with Berkman’s knees. Let us see in June.
by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Dec 5, 2010 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
FanGraphs says Berkman was a 2.1 WAR player last year
And since when does single season WAR represent true talent level? I’m so sick of the “he needs to be able to bounce back” argument.
Sorry
I looked at Fangraphs yesterday and saw 1.1. Trying to diminish the deal I guess. Yes, it is 2.1. I still don’t feel very happy about LB in left, when the infield is still, to my mind, not resolved.
by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Dec 5, 2010 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
Infield
Can Lance Berkman play second base? Would anyone try to take him out when turning a double play? Food for thought.
by WizardofOz1982 on Dec 7, 2010 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
I think you would agree that playing the outfield defensively,
as oppposed to first base or DH, will reqire a better offensive output from Berkman for him to reach 2 WAR in value. He will need to bounce back, if only a little bit, and I think he is a good candidate to do so.
According to Fangraphs, Berkman’s fielding had a positive value. It will be negative next year in the OF. If he’s healthy—which is a legitimate “if”—his wOBA ought to go up. How high is the question.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 5, 2010 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
Right, I'm saying it's not reasonable to expect him to repeat last years numbers
Which were by far the worst of his carer, and was fueled by a BABIP .040 points lower than his career average.
I think a fair median projection for him is 2.5 WAR with -10 defense.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 5, 2010 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
you mean Tejada playing 3rd not SS right?
because i totally agree if so
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
or better by getting hawpe instead of berk
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
Hawpe has a career .374 road wOBA he just shouldn't be a starting OF
Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have? Frank Chance 1908
Great post AZ
Level headed, comprehensive analysis… I expect nothing else.
Yes, the Cardinals seem to have some kind of weird and unhealthy relationship with their own farm system. Luhnow seems to have built a system that is capable of producing capable (damn, I hate repetition but I already wrote that so phooey) major league players, if not beast types (Rasmus and maybe Garcia excepted). But then, the big club seems to be horribly gun-shy about using any of them, unless they do something to impress TLR right away which, lets face it, is a fairly unreasonable burden.
The Craig situation is just… well it is just perplexing. He gets no call up in 2009 even though the team was playing a two-headed monster of poopy in Thurston and Barden, supposedly because he wasn’t good enough to play there defensively even though they were playing motherfletching Joe Thurston there. In 2010 Freese’s ankles shatter because of stiff breezes and so obviously Pedro Feliz is the best option there. But now… now Craig may actually be able to hack it over there as a band-aid type solution. I mean, seriously, how much have the Cards lost the past few years running pu-pu platters of freaking stinky poop out there to man third base? Now it is possible, of course, that Craig simply can’t play third and his bat won’t transfer over to the majors, but it was obvious to me that those other dumpster dives were emphatically not the answer either. Why not try a kid there?
Oh well… I like the Berkman move provided he stays healthy and TLR remembers that he’s not really an outfielder so he should be migrating to the pine in the 7th inning of most games.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 5, 2010 11:45 AM EST reply actions
typical tlr
he doesn’t like luhnow
ergo, he doesn’t like the players he selected
it ain’t complicated
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
someone on PR was saying that Felipe Paulino is being targeted by the Cards
seems like an interesting DD project
Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have? Frank Chance 1908
i first read it as felipe lopez was being targeted.
but paulino was traded to the rockies in the barmes trade.
hey Mo: theriot at 2B, boog at SS.
KEEP BRENDAN RYAN.
Iread it wrong they were discussing ronnie
Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have? Frank Chance 1908
Trading brendan Ryan would be a mistake on par with the kosher contract
There, I said it. You don’t build a pitching staff predicated on inducing groundballs, and then downgrade your infield defense. It’s a huge mistake and make Tony a complete hypocrite(not that he already wasn’t one)
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 5, 2010 11:57 AM EST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Auto correct ftw
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Fuzz
Supposed to be loshe
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 5, 2010 12:07 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
or maybe, Lohse
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 5:52 PM EST up reply actions
trading boog is not a $40MM mistake
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
Financially, no. Baseball sense wise, yea it is
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 5, 2010 5:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
totally agree
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
I hope this Kosher nickname sticks
But – as much as it hurts FANS like me – I don’t think it’s a Lohse-level BASEBALL mistake.
his name is Bubbles dammit!
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
by gdm426 on Dec 5, 2010 5:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The only playlist I would expect from Az would be his favorite House episodes.
It’s never lupus.
by spants on Dec 5, 2010 12:06 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
it's probably an infection
my dad and i joke that we should make a drinking game out of any time the word ‘infection’ is said in that show. heh heh heh
/fellow house fan
hey Mo: theriot at 2B, boog at SS.
KEEP BRENDAN RYAN.
I love everything Hugh Laurie has ever done
I consider Thank You Jeeves to be way underrated, and think The Black Adder has to be up there
Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have? Frank Chance 1908
the band from tv?
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
Blackadder (all except series #1) was awesome
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 6, 2010 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
Re: Ludwick v. Berkman
I’m not so sure signing Berkman proves that the Ludwick deal was shortsighted as some have suggested. If the Cards don’t have Westbrook for the last 2 months of 2010 do they get him on what looks to be a below market deal this year? Westbrook clearly signed where he was comfortable and probably for less money. That is a collateral benefit of the Luddy deal.
Berkman stands a good chance of giving considerably better offense (particularly the one gaping hole on this team—OBP in the 2 spot) and marginally worse defense than Luddy for the same price. At worse, that is a wash. Neither player would likely be with this team in 2012.
I, for one, am excited for the science project that will be the Cardinals of 2011. We all know defense is invaluable. However, it is also far less measurable than offense. It will be interesting to see if the Cards really lose as much through reduced defense as they will gain by having a batting order with some depth. After the 5 spot in the line-up last year, things were dicey to say the least. Not giving away three innings per game on offense may just outweigh a couple of balls a game falling in for hits on defense. I’m optimistic about this season.
yeah, trading Ludwick was all about getting Westbrook
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
IMO
Best (signing Hudson instead of Berkman):
C – Y Molina
1B – A Pujols
2B – O Hudson
3B – D Freese
SS – B Ryan
LF – M Holliday
CF – C Rasmus
RF – A Craig / J Jay | S Schumaker
Good (curent roster):
C – Y Molina
1B – A Pujols
2B – R Theriot
3B – D Freese
SS – B Ryan
LF – M Holliday
CF – C Rasmus
RF – L Berkman / A Craig
Expected (current roster):
C – Y Molina
1B – A Pujols
2B – S Schumaker
3B – D Freese
SS – R Theriot
LF – L Berkman
CF – C Rasmus
RF – M Holliday
by astrostl on Dec 5, 2010 12:11 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
i'm shocked this doesn't involve some kind of ... tier.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
how bout a root beer tier?
A&W (great), Barq’s (good), and Mug (bad)
hey Mo: theriot at 2B, boog at SS.
KEEP BRENDAN RYAN.
The producers of high fructose corn syrup
would prefer corn sugar.
Screw you, you freakin stats nerd
shoulda known.
but i’m a big soda guy. a&w and pepsi are my faves.
hey Mo: theriot at 2B, boog at SS.
KEEP BRENDAN RYAN.
anything carbonated is good by me.
other than cherry coke or dr. pepper. i can’t stand either one of those.
hey Mo: theriot at 2B, boog at SS.
KEEP BRENDAN RYAN.
I love Cherry Coke and Wild Cherry Pepsi.
But only fountain, and those flavors are typically only at movie theaters.
wild cherry diet dr pepper is quite awesome
Fire John Mozeliak up a nice steak, or stake ( haven't decided)
i don't know how any person can hate the Dr
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
I'm not a fan.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
i don't know who you are anymore
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
no A&W is not great, just sugary water
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
I did like the A&W franchise fast food stores though
there was a drive thru in my home town, loved going there
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
Try
Fitz Tier (micro brew0
IBC Tier (specialty macro)
Barq’s Tier (Caffeinated Macro)
Mug/A&W Tier (un-caffeinated super sweet macro
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
This is a Midwest slanted tiering system
I considered changing IBC for sprechers, since sprechers is sort of a well distributed micro
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
If it's midwest slanted, then where is Sioux City? That's the best root beer out there, imo.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Henry Weinhardt's and Thomas Kemper would like a word,
however, Sioux City is good.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Old school MUG
was the bomb. It used to come in short bottles that required a deposit. I haven’t been able to get any since I was 7 or 8. It’s just crap now.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I don't even know you anymore
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
i know it's UnAmerican, but i just don't like the stuff
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
take that back
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 6, 2010 1:05 AM EST up reply actions
It's going to take me awhile to adjust to these trades
for some reason, Theriot & Berkman were two of my higher ranked hated players. I’m always optimistic in the offseason and believe every move will turn to gold, but it’s going to be weird wanting Berkman & Theriot to do well.
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
at the very least
Berkman will be a fun interview. I live in Houston and though i cant stand the Astros I enjoyed hearing Berkman;s comments on the team. He actaully speaks his mind instead of just dropping sports cliche’s that dont mean anything like Biggio and Bagwell always did.
Milt Thompson FTW!
az- I'll take the under
By a month for an Avatar change for the opening week. If you’re up for it. Winner chooses avatar.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
ok
yadi2second don’t let us forget about this. Also, I need some awful robot pictures.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
i've always had a soft spot for robot chicken's humping robot.
but it doesn’t really translate in avatar form.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
i found a couple other options
that may or may not combine your robot persona with your love of children
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
if only those children would end their ceaseless biological warfare against him!
"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."
by tom s. on Dec 5, 2010 5:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I was at my youngest brother's children's musical earlier this week
And there was a child too young to be in the musical in the church pew behind me. The entire time the kid was garbling the words as he tried to sing along and kicking my seat. If I hadn’t been in church, I probably would have snapped on his mother. How a parent can have a child in their lap kicking the person’s seat in front of them and not do anything is remarkably selfish and rude.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
speaking as a parent, NOBODY loves children's musicals.
"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."
by tom s. on Dec 5, 2010 5:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Sorry azru, i think I win.
@aaronbaronhill tweet from friday
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
why in the world would you go to that?
you couldn’t drag me to any musical or play my nephews are in if you promised me all the bacon covered brownies i could eat
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
what about bacon covered bourbon brownies?
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
want
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
logic & reason go out the window when bacon covered bourbon brownies are involved
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
My brother cold-cocked me with the question unexpectedly.
I have troubles telling him no to his face.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
i have the exact opposite problem with my family
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
I like the signing
But we don’t need some old backup catcher. Anderson can easily fill that role – why are we developing these guys and then giving their roles away to older veterans? And Craig needs to get at bats, no matter what. Assuming Freese gets hurt (easy assumption) I think Craig can play a passable third base. Who needs defense anyways? It’s not like we have a ground ball rotation
so they can win their championships in Memphis
and not waste them on St. Louis.
….wait.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
because of TLR
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
OT: I can't believe that there is a guy called Robert Klitgaard
that has to be one of the worst names ever
Skip Schumaker is not a scapegoat.
Forsooth and Verily
it's Danish for "dune farm"
probably a place-name.
maybe he’s Fremen.
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
somewhere, rusty kuntz is shaking his head at you.
hey Mo: theriot at 2B, boog at SS.
KEEP BRENDAN RYAN.
great post, robot!c
I agree that the org is divided into different camps of thought, and that it has made things very tricky to deal with. the other thing that is muddling the situation is all the injuries that have occurred midseason.
if there hadn’t been the big injuries of last year, and the year before, etc. the team/roster would in all likelihood look quite a bit different.
and if Larussa or whoever hadn’t decreed schumaker as the second baseman, the team would be a lot better.
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:23 PM EST reply actions
i can see it now
may _ 2010: st. louis cardinals sign inf. aaron miles to _ year contract.
hey Mo: theriot at 2B, boog at SS.
KEEP BRENDAN RYAN.
my biggest problem is when they didn't give time to Greene, Craig, or Gotay at third last year
Pedro Feliz? really?
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
I'm by no means convinced that Greene is going to amount to anything
but last year would have been the perfect chance to start him at third
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
to see if he's any good
and they botched it. also they could have utilized Gotay, but declined to do so
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
he only had an .850 ops
what coulld he have possibly added?
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
That moonshot he hit into the third deck in LF surprised me last year
It was right after he was called up in 2010, IIRC. I didn’t know he was capable of that kind of power, and there are plenty of players on the team that might never do it under perfect (batting practice pitching, wind blowing out, etc.) conditions.
yes, it makes you wonder how he would fare if he was given ample playing time to prove himself
he acts even more nervous than boog sometimes though. on defense he spaces out at times too. I still have hope that he could become an above average player. but he’s starting to get old so, maybe they’ll let him play more.
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
holy moley, he got all of that one!!
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
azru is too polite to say this, so I will: everybody who engaged in the appeals
To authority and insisted that craig could never play third because the coaching staff had conclusively determined that he couldn’t – was the staff wrong then or wrong now?
Anyway, the point is to try to evaluate things independently. Sure, factor in judgments from the staff. But don’t let them become the end of investigation, otherwise you end up in an absurd position.
"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."
by tom s. on Dec 5, 2010 3:13 PM EST via mobile reply actions
they were wrong then
how many chances did they have to see if Craig could play at third? the only explanation was that they evaluated him, and thought that he couldn’t play third base. and now they are in a position where they have to go back and do the right thing.
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
yes, but
better to see if he can handle it during spring training than down the stretch in a pennant race
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
yeah
this is also true… but people were clamoring for him to get some starts at third base for quite some time now
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
myself too
but, what if he had been shoved out there and failed miserably? This way, hopefully he gets an honest shot at sticking.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
hard to say if it was a failure or not then
I think they are doing the right thing in giving him time there in ST
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
why no time in a winter league at 3rd
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
like a poster said earlier
I believe they had wallace and freese ahead of him
and they just wanted to get his bat involved anyway possible
(or not that at all, I dunno)
by jealousblues on Dec 5, 2010 10:02 PM EST up reply actions
As one of that group...
They’re wrong now. Anybody can stroll out there and stand by third base, whether he can effectively play the position at the major league level remains to be seen.
FWIW — I think he’ll be there in the spring a lot to see if he can, and then Freese will start there and be the starter there unless he gets hurt like he did last year, and Descalso will end up being the backup at 3B either on the bench or at AAA. I see no chance that the club will live with Allen Craig playing 3B for any length of time, or Chris Carpenter will tear his head off and shit down his neck.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I don't think he'll be any worse than Skip is at 2B
and I think you can deny a) we’ve got better backup options at 2B than we do at 3B (at least until Freese is healthy) and b) Craig’s ceiling as a hitter is probably higher than Skip’s.
I think it’s worth a try but I agree he’ll probably suck and piss us all off by the end of April…
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 7, 2010 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
The Skip move was done basically out of lack of other options.
That’s really all there is to it. He hasn’t been a good second baseman, but it’s not like we’ve had any other options to put there either. He was good enough to play in 2009, not good enough last year, and should probably be replaced……but we gave him a 2 year deal after a career year.
My response was to tom s., who seems to think that I have egg on my face for believing the evaluation of many a minor league scout, coach, etc., who moved Craig off the position despite his bat because his noodle arm and slow reflexes simply couldn’t play there. He’s not quick, and not exceptionally sure handed even in the outfield, why do we think he can play 3B? So they’re wrong NOW to put him back there, and were right THEN to move him off the position, and I think this is how this will play out.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I hid the philosopher-tiering
it seemed innocent in intent but I don’t think one comments thread can handle both meta-VEB and near-politics, and I feel less autocratic hiding somebody complaining about marx’s writing instead of my own.
by DanUpBaby on Dec 5, 2010 3:13 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
And so begins (continues?) the tyrannical reign of DanUpBaby
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
I could've sworn mysterui left a reply to this comment
by brackenthebox on Dec 5, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
"mysterui"?
I heard of someone by this name. too bad about him…
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Dec 5, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Hey bracken! It's me!
Gosh, don’t you remember when you and I had a flamewar about the merits of UZR?!
Don’t you remember when I started the offtopic shitstorm about the use of pejoratives?!
It’s me! mysterui!
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Dec 5, 2010 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Guys! I'm right here!
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
"it doesn't matter who recs; what matters is who counts the recs."
“One deleted post is a crime; a million deleted posts is just editing.”
- generalissimo upbaby
"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."
by tom s. on Dec 5, 2010 5:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 6 recs
Nice Post
I agree with the “disjointedness” of the moves thus far, but will withhold judgment until opening day. A Schumaker/Theriot platoon would be an elite OBP 2B.
Berkman is the new Larry Walker and will be fun to watch.
As a conspiracy theorist I have to believe the Cards have banked a bit more money over the past two years and are finally OK with spending a bit (God forbid a $110M payroll in 2011!). Next moves:
Extend Pujols 8 years 190M if that’s not enough (or in the ballpark) – trade him…
Restructure Carp 3Y 27M (The “Rolen” treatment).
Trade Colby, B.Ryan, A-Craig and any two RH relievers for Stephen Drew and J. Upton
Hell sign Renteria to be a “La-Russa” bench guy!
Minor league contracts guaranteeing at least $500K to: (Milledge, Dukes, Andrew Miller)
Rule 5 Adam Miller
OK – fantasy over -
OK
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Trade Colby, B.Ryan, A-Craig and any two RH relievers for Stephen Drew and J. Upton
yeah, because that would get Drew and Upton…
and who plays center? Upton? with Holliday in right and Berkman in left? I’m not sure that’d be the ideal defensive outfield (unless Upton is magically an amazing CF, something that has no corroborating evidence.)
Save Boog
berkman plays cf
(all kidding aside…PART of me really is curious about wanting to see a Berkman, Holiday, Craig OF for a game next year)
by jealousblues on Dec 5, 2010 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
he said it was a fantasy
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
apparently he's in instructional league
hitting 93-94. It reminds me of the Josh Hamilton pick-up, only probably much less successful. Worth taking him to Spring Training, though.
Writing off prospects
I, like you (methinks), am physically unable to give up on prospects….
The other alternative to the above is some kind or Drays trade:
Rasmus plus any two RH relievers for
Upton and Zobrist
Zobrist could play anywhere!!! And! Ozzie Smith once taught Upton how to play SS!!!!
why are you so intent on trading our third best hitter
who just happens to be free?
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
Good Q
I just don’t see him “working” in STL and want to sell. Plus I like all of these other guys to the point where I think we are probably getting the better end of the deals. I will admit that I am probably wrong, but I’ve got nothing better to do and Colby is probably the last piece of “intrigue” in this offseason (OK – maybe BRyan as well)…
he has been working for the Cardinals for 2 years now, and has been one of the best players on the team
what more do you want?
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
"Working"
He was pretty good in ’09 and much better in ’10. I guess I meant “productive” not asking to be traded, getting along with the bossman (Pujols!). When I said working I meant more in the “LaRussian” sense!
Bottom line, I am happy with him, but given the right deal (e.g. the couple I mentioned) could be happier without him….
uh
it seems you are buying too much into hearsay and too little into his on the field accomplishments and offensive output (most people would not like to get rid of their 3rd (or is it 4th?) best hitter.
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
An Adam Miller reference!
If you’re going to do some fantasy GMing I like that you went all out. Moving Rasmus for Upton would eat up a lot of that extra payroll, though.
hypothetical: colby for ellsbury straight up?
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
Resident malcontented betamale
hell. no.
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
just something a friend brought up that seemed initially intriguing
I did not realize he was that much older.
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
Resident malcontented betamale
by slu on Dec 5, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
and not as good/valuable a player
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
you’re upsetting me
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
by prophetjohn on Dec 5, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
when zoomzoom nixes a colby trade, we know it's a bad one
j/p zoomzoom
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
hypothetical: this rock for that obviously great bag of weed which is obviously the source of your hypothetical
you were more spot on here than you may have realized
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
Resident malcontented betamale
...
hypothetical: colby for ellsbury straight up?
not on any planet unless Colby was on life support and incapable of holding a bat.
You fit into me
like a hook into an eye
a fish hook
an open eye
i don't understand the arguments for hudson over berkman
especially signing hudson to multiple years. hudson is gonna be 34 and looks to be declining hard. his 3 WAR 2010 is heavily reliant on what appears to be the quirkiness of UZR. he got a full win on defense after several years that indicated he was pretty much exactly average with the glove. his 3 WAR 2009 looks to be a result of a BABIP fueled offense, both of which are declining. i think a reasonable 2-year projection for him would be 2 and 1.5 WAR. that’s not better than one year of lance berkman with a downside of nothing and an upside pushing 5 WAR. it’s also possible that we get that out of a schumaker/greene platoon
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
by prophetjohn on Dec 5, 2010 3:41 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
+1
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
i'm not a big stat guy
but the simple argument of that would be that hudson addresses the 2B issue, while berkman addresses something that isn’t really a big problem for the team (the OF).
hey Mo: theriot at 2B, boog at SS.
KEEP BRENDAN RYAN.
if only they would admit the 2b issue
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
The question is whether or not TLR/Mo are going to replace Skip
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
A Schumaker/whoever platoon would be a step forward in my book
But I don’t think that’s likely to happen. If we hired a full-time 2B, Skip WOULD be replaced, and we’d have the position covered for the duration of the contract. So there’s that. It’s a lot of gaming of ifs and FO/TLR glitches, though, as opposed to what we objectively consider to be the best move. I do find it easy to see both the difference between Berkman & Craig/Jay and Hudson & Schumaker alone to be around 2 WAR each.
gotta give some thought to 2012
can’t get rid of all our possible MI for 2012
theriot would be going to straight to 2nd, if not for skip’s contract
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
I feel like this is disingenuous
that’s not better than one year of lance berkman with a downside of nothing
There is a downside there and while it may not be terrifying, I don’t understand when people ignore it in it’s entirety. If Berkman goes belly up does anyone think the Cardinals will give his playing time to Craig or a replacement in an expedient fashion? If it turns out his defense is truly awful are the Cardinals going to look at using Jay there in late innings. Let’s not kid ourselves that his usage is easy. He’ll need to be managed properly and if there’s one type of player I don’t trust La Russa with, it’s the injured veteran who wants to “help” the team win.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
I just don't think the downside is realistic
What are odds that Berkman is healthy and plays poorly enough to the extent that he’s worse than Craig/Jay?
I mean the man has never had anything close to resembling a bad season in the bigs. He’s got some of the best K:BB numbers of all time (meaning he doesn’t rely on BABIP or ISO – in fact both were heavily down last year and he was still a well above average hitter).
Why is the premise that he's healthy AND plays poorly enough?
My worry is that he’s not healthy and plays well enough to stay on the field. That is more LaRussa’s MO.
Again, I think this is a smart deal but I don’t get when people completely discount the risk that Berkman has aged poorly. There is some level of risk here.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
Well I think that if Berkman is unhealthy he'll be put on the DL
I trust that there is some semblance of honor on this team.
You must not remember the great Isringhausen of 2006 epic
Seriously, this team is notorious for not putting injured players on the DL.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
Yeah, but usually they just put them on the bench for 20 games
I can’t really think of another situation (besides Izzy) where a player was obviously hurt and still played everyday.
that name is soulcrushing
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
also
tom s has a nice list of position players below:
Khalil Greene
Rick Ankiel
Chris Duncan
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
Don't forget Scott Rolen or Jim Edmonds.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 5, 2010 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
GDM is down! GDM is down! ohh the humanity!
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
Scott Rolen, through most of 2006 and 2007
although admittedly he was still very productive through much of that time. Guy would’ve benefitted from some more rest though…
Still bitching to contact.
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 7, 2010 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
the downside
is that he never plays a game in a cardinal uniform. i don’t see a scenario where he plays and he’s below replacement level
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
Below replacement level or below average?
He flirted with the latter last year (while injured!), at 1B/DH.
Note: I expect him to do fine, and perform above-average.
one of the definite frustrations here is that the value of the trade and signing
Depend in part on cutting bait on either berkman or theriot in the event of total collapse from either, as you pointed out. I wish we could have more faith in tony or month to ensure that we won’t just keep sending out a player who’s “not right.” see greene, khalil; ankiel, rick; duncan, chris.
"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."
by tom s. on Dec 5, 2010 5:06 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
gah! didn't even see that!
Also every time I abbrieviate line drive it puts in the date. Wtf RIM?
"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."
by tom s. on Dec 5, 2010 5:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
ya gotta go with MO on the BB tom, not Mo
Fire John Mozeliak up a nice steak, or stake ( haven't decided)
Agreed
That’s like saying there was “no downside” to signing Jeff Suppan. Well, except that he stunk and we wouldn’t have found out anything about our AAA pitchers had other injuries not happened last year.
There is always a downside, and I think the Berkman signing could have a heaping helping of it.
Would anyone sign off of Jim Thome playing 3B after him not playing there for, idk, 15 years? Berkman was never an above average outfielder, so his bat is really going to have to take off and be the Puma of old for him to have a ton of surplus value.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
that's pretty much like my weekend plans
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
i didn't and it kinda sucks
see ya, albert
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
nice to know that you're on the 'albert's leaving' bandwagon
hey Mo: theriot at 2B, boog at SS.
KEEP BRENDAN RYAN.
i don't think we can afford him
unless i’m way off in what i think his demands will be. it might actually be good in that we can sign gonzalez for $20MM per year instead of pujols for $30MM
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
I think it's premature to consider him gone
And even if he gets paid a bajillion, there are options like increasing payroll (actual Cardinal franchise income is still a great unknown) or making the payouts majorly deferred (e.g. a 20YR/15MM contract under which he retires early).
....
it might actually be good in that we can sign gonzalez for $20MM per year instead of pujols for $30MM
No, that would be a downgrade. Agon’s best season ever is on par with Albert’s worst season ever. And Agon is looking for an 8 year deal.
quick
best console game from any generation before PS2. also stated, best console game that i can emulate on a 2-year-old laptop
i’ve played ocarina of time. not that one
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
it's a game i've been meaning to play
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
Mortal Kombat?
Probably not the best, and I don’t know if it’s available. But I rocked that shit on Genesis.
I always played Killer Instinct on SNES
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
both were quite good
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
the megaman franchise was a very entertaining/somewhat difficult series
great music too
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
mega man's music really was great
the post-NES games were a huge disappointment, so I’m glad 9 and 10 are pseudo-8-bit games.
I was still pleased with the S-NES ones
it’s practically a crime that the composers for games such as megaman, final fantasy, etc are not more recognized. I’d love to see what they’d compose for an orchestra
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
It's all about the Squaresoft RPGs
Go write some more prose
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Best? I dunno
I’ll suggest Maniac Mansion. But, I’d suggest the PC “Maniac Mansion Deluxe” version over the NES one.
Pen Pen Triicelon
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
Super Metroid.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
sort of a confusing article
misspelling of Greinke in the headline, they say he’s willing to go anywhere, but there’s a 15 team no trade list… that he probably won’t honor anymore. then it goes on to say that the Reds, Braves, and Rangers are “not on the list”.
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 4:38 PM EST reply actions
article link would help
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
Werth to the Nats close
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
that's pretty funny
I don’t think he’s WORTH it!!
"...football games always make me thankful for two things:
1. Teams that pass the ball downfield.
2. Baseball games. "
--DanUpBaby
LL is all over it
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/498958/werthpuns_medium.png
Lick that shoulder—you're in the doghouse now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
7 years $126MM
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
now hitting for the nationals, #28, the right fielder,
barry zito jayson werth
hey Mo: theriot at 2B, boog at SS.
KEEP BRENDAN RYAN.
Maybe not a great deal
but it’s very similar to the Holliday deal. I don’t hate it. Probably around market value.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
But Werth isn't as good as Holliday, and is slightly older IIRC
And the Nationals are not a playoff team. Seems pretty bad to me.
He's a year older and I think if you consider him a 5 WAR true talent
it’s defensible. (http://www.tangotiger.net/salary2008.html) I think that the Nationals overpaid but not by a ton. w/r/t their playoff status, yea, I wouldn’t have made the deal if I were them but it’s not blow my mind bad like Adam Dunn or Barry Zito.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
the Nats have some really good cost controlled players
so they could afford to overpay a bit
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
Werth is no where near a 5 win talent though
5 wins is his average the past three years, but that’s helped by what seems to be an unattainably high UZR. Plus you need to factor in aging and regression. I would say he has a 4 WAR projection at best.
Sure, call him a 4 WAR player
My point is that we should have some perspective. This isn’t the worst deal ever. It’s not an above average deal but it isn’t franchise ending.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
It could be though
I mean it’s hard to get more albotrossy than giving a 4 WAR player 127 million through his age 32 – 38 seasons. Really the best case scenario is that he performs to par.
I agree
And I think the Nats are in a position where they have to give action (contracts) to get action (fans, players).
Yeah, I think it could be good deal
Paying a premium for wins in hopes that your young core will be able to put it together and you could have a couple of 90 win seasons.
But it could also turn into a franchise crippling move. Very risky.
all these big deals are making the Holliday deal look better every day.
You fit into me
like a hook into an eye
a fish hook
an open eye
by Red Blazer on Dec 5, 2010 7:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He also moves from a huge hitters park to a huge pitchers park
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
which shouldn't realistically affect his value if you park adjust
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
fWAR isn't park adjusted
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Welp
Here’s my badge
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Oh wait I know what I was thinking
Their wOBA isn’t park adjusted, correct?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
they should make it so
less confusing that way
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
ah
thanks for clearing that up :)
boog at shortstop makes the starting pitching a lot better
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 5, 2010 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
Well statcorner's wOBA is park adjusted
It probably doesn’t matter either way. I don’t know why they fuck around the wRC+ though. Just have a normal wOBA, a park adjusted wOBA and then show the league average wOBA.
Clarification: SC's P-A wOBA is wOBA*
Personally, I like the + stats (OPS+, wRC+) specifically because there’s no need to look up a scale-reference from year-to-year: 100 is always average, 130 is always 30% better than average, etc. Nice independent integer.
Just go to Statcorner.
Statcorner has a park-adjusted and a park-adjusted/batted-ball adjusted wOBA.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 5, 2010 6:11 PM EST

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