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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

The Mysterious Case of Skip Schumaker, Likely 2011 Bounceback Hitter

[I remain, for a few more days, out of town—filling in today is longtime fanposter and previous guest star bgh. He brought footnotes!*

*In the post-Posnanski internet-footnote sense.

 

"Know what the difference between hitting .250 and .300 is? It's twenty-five hits. Twenty-five hits in 500 at-bats is fifty points, okay? There's six months in a season, that's about twenty-five weeks. That means if you get just one extra flare a week--just one--a gorp...you get a groundball, you get a groundball with eyes...you get a dying quail, just one more dying quail a week...and you're in Yankee Stadium."

 -- Crash Davis in "Bull Durham"

Every year about this time I feel as if the phrase "the dead of winter" was conjured up by a Midwestern baseball fan in late December, when the landscape is largely white as opposed to green and the last season is seemingly as far away on the calendar as Spring Training. The winter meetings are over, the roster is largely set, and there isn't much left to do besides rehash the moves that have already been made and how they might affect next season's results, as there is very little in the way of baseball news to be had. This macabre silence was pierced on Tuesday with an article by Derrick Goold over at the Post-Dispatch which seems of a type more likely to come from the organization's propaganda wing, stlcardinals.com.

Goold's article was picked apart a bit in Tuesday's Main Post discussion thread. The usual dead horse, Trading Boog Was A Bad Idea (yes, the dead horse is a dead racehorse to me), was trotted out and beaten, as has been VEB's Hot Stove sport of choice. While I am sympathetic to the viewpoint of the dead horse beaters, this paragraph from the Goold piece still caught my eye:

The inspiration for moving Schumaker to second base was to keep his .300 average in the lineup. The Cardinals were willing to try a defensive experiment to keep an offensive asset, and though Schumaker's average sank in 2010, the club believes in his ability to rebound at the plate and improve in the field.

Star-divide

Goold's reporting that the organization believes Schumaker can rebound at the plate should surprise no one. After all, why else would they keep Schumaker in the fold and trade Ryan away? Nonetheless, this is a perspective on the middle infield machinations that has seemingly been given short shrift around here, so I thought it might be interesting to take a look at whether the club has a sound belief in Schumaker's ability to rebound at the bat. It is a task I feel imminently qualified to do as the author of the mid-May 2010 Fanpost: With Lopez Activated, Skip Should Still Start at the Keystone.* 

*Harking back to that Fanpost and writing this one has also left me wondering why I am defending Skip Schumaker seemingly more than most. I have no idea why I find myself in this position. I had seen Schumaker play for AAA Memphis on numerous occasions, back in the days when the whole team wore tall, striped socks, but he was never one of favorite Redbirds. In St. Louis, I was never a fan of him occupying an outfield spot because he is a bad defensive center fielder and doesn't hit enough to play a corner position. Furthermore, being a worshipper at the Altar of Oz,  I have never been in favor of the shift to second base because I value infield defense. Also, I cannot stand players sliding headlong into first base. All of this being said, bad luck is bad luck and Schumaker experienced quite a bit of it last season.

This exercise is certainly contrarian, even self-contrarian as I felt second base was the position that was the easiest to upgrade this Hot Stove due to Schumaker's ever-falling slugging and ever-stagnate defense. Banishing Brendan Ryan to the Pacific Northwest, far from the Best Fans in Baseball...for appreciation of wizardly defenders playing shortstop, was not a move I would have made. That being said, I find myself more hesitant in criticizing the Skip-over-Boog choice as I have not looked at how likely or unlikely an offensive renaissance for Schumaker in 2011 is. My initial reaction to replacing Ryan with Theriot (based on the Bill James projections) was: "Ryan with a .288 wOBA is more valuable to St. Louis than Theriot with a .307 wOBA." While most of us preferred Skip being replaced to Boog, and, in doing so, touted Boog's upside, we also failed to examine Skip's upside and the likelihood of him achieving it. So, I ask you to join me as I investigate the mysterious case of Skip Schumaker, likely 2011 bounceback hitter.

Up until 2010, Schumaker had been a consistent batsman during his few big-league seasons. As noted above, it was his consistent .300 hitting (probably to TLR) and league-average wOBA (probably to VEB) that made the Schumaker Experiment acceptable. That is, Skip's league-average offensive production allowed him to have value even with atrocious glove-work. Here are Schumaker's lines by season:

‘07:  188 PAs/.333/.358/.458/.353 wOBA

‘08:  594 PAs/.302/.359/.406/.341 wOBA

‘09:  586 PAs/.303/.364/.393/.336 wOBA

‘10:  529 PAs/.265/.328/.338/.299 wOBA

I am someone who now functions largely in wOBA. Recognizing that not all of us are so inclined, I have included the traditional BA/OBP/SLG slash lines as well as wOBA to give everyone some perspective. Most concerning for me is the downward trend in Skip's slugging percentage from .458 to .406 to .393 to .336. It is as if, in moving from a corner outfield defensive position to a middle infield defensive position, Skip has taken on the offensive profile of gritty middle infielder extraordinaire Aaron Miles.*

*Miles has a career slugging percentage of .354 and posted slugging percentages of .347, .348, .398, and .317 in his four (!) seasons as a Cardinal.

While the diminishing power in Schumaker's offensive production is concerning, if we had to pinpoint the key to his bad 2010, it would be his batting average. The reason for this is that Schumaker does not hit for power and does not walk a lot even if his walk rate is acceptable. As a full-time major-leaguer, Schumaker has posted walk rates of 4.3%, 7.9%, 8.9%, and 8.1%. Thus, to have an OBP acceptable for a top-of-the-order hitter, Schumaker has to hit about .300. When he does not, his defensive shortcomings completely offset his offensive production and render him the proverbial "replacement player," which is exactly what happened in 2010 with his -0.2 WAR. When Goold writes that getting Skip's .300 average into the lineup at second was the motivation for the Cards' experimentalism, he is dead-on. If Schumaker does not hit about .300, he has no value at the keystone. Let us therefore examine whether there is reason to believe that Skip can once again be that .300-hitting, no-glove second baseman that gives us value at second base in the form of a 1.5- or 2.0-WAR season.*

*Hitting .303/.364/.393 in ‘09, Schumaker posted a 1.5-WAR season. Hitting .223/.279/.294 in ‘10, Ryan posted a 1.0-WAR season. There's more than one way to skin a cat and there's more than one way to accrue WAR. Schumaker's ‘09 WAR came exclusively via his bat and Ryan's ‘10 WAR came exclusively via his glove.

It is somewhat heartening to look at Schumaker's batted ball profile on Fangraphs from ‘08 to ‘09 to ‘10, as it is rather consistent. His respective LD% in each season ranges by only two-tenths of one percentage point, being 21.7% in ‘08, 21.6% in ‘09, and 21.8% in ‘10. His GB% is also pretty consistent at 58.1%, 61.0%, and 58.6% respectively. Likewise, Skip's FB% is also largely similar: 20.2%, 17.5%, and 19.6%. All of this while his IFFB% (Infield Flyball Percentage) tanked, falling from 9.9% in ‘09 to 1.2% in ‘10, which may mean he was consistently making better contact in ‘10 than ‘09.

Despite how exasperating it was watching Schumaker's early- and late-season struggles bookend a decent middle of the season,* pouring over the spreadsheets in my mom's basement leaves me to believe Schumaker's poor season with the bat was largely the product of bad luck. Statcorner, with its lovely park- and batted ball-adjusted wOBAr, affirms this conclusion.

*Note the wOBA daily tracking chart on the bottom left.

Here is a side-by-side comparison with Schumaker's actual wOBA first and wOBAr second via Statcorner:

‘07:  .366/.322

‘08:  .346/.359

‘09:  .352/.333

‘10:  .311/.336

Statcorner's wOBAr demonstrates that Schumaker's ‘09 was about as lucky as his ‘10 was unlucky. The gap between Schumaker's actual ‘09 wOBA and his wOBAr is +19 and the gap between his actual ‘10 wOBA and his wOBAr is -25. This would leave one to believe that the Bill James projection for Schumaker in ‘11 of .285/.346/.372/.321 wOBA might be a bit low. Then again, Schumaker's batting average--and, therefore, his value--will likely come down to about 25 at-bats, as those batted balls will determine whether he hits .250 or .300. In other words, the organization's decision to keep Schumaker on as the primary second baseman is one that will likely turn out good or bad depending on the Gods Of Baseball. Given the strict observance of this fickle lot around these parts, one might think Schumaker should get more of a break, dFAWARP notwithstanding.

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Hope You Are Right... but

I am not sure that I buy into the offense balancing out his defensive shortcomings if he does in fact achieve a .300 average. He is really a liability on defense because of his lack of range. It also concerns me that the combination of Theriot and Schumaker lack of range compounds the problem even more. I am old school and believe that defense up the middle is extremely important. Schumaker paired with an excellent SS with exceptional range would help, but putting two middle infielders out there who at best have average range is really problematic.

Schumaker is a winner from the standpoint of attitude and work ethic so I am hoping that he can overcome his obvious shortcomings. Unfortunately I just do not see it happening. I sure hope that I am wrong.

by Warcard on Dec 30, 2010 6:59 AM EST reply actions  

you are, unfortunately, not wrong

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR

by sportsman on Dec 30, 2010 9:56 AM EST up reply actions  

To be determined....

G-O-H-O-H-O-9-O!
G-O-H-O-H-O-9-O!

by The MooCow on Dec 30, 2010 10:02 AM EST up reply actions  

welcome back from the future

when do we get flying cars?

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

nice post

I agree with everything you wrote. But the takeaway in the last paragraph is, imo, a failing by the FO. When a player has to rely on the vagaries of luck to be an average player, he should not be a full time starter. In other words, there is nothing in skip’s profile to suggest that he won’t be susceptible to the same “forces” that resulted in his crappy year last year.
i’m fine with skip being in a platoon to maximize his offense and minimize his defense but any more playing time than that is too much.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 30, 2010 8:25 AM EST reply actions  

Looking into the milk bowl...

…I personally expect Skip to produce about .288/.340/.378/, for an OPS of about .718, with a slight increase in his D.

G-O-H-O-H-O-9-O!
G-O-H-O-H-O-9-O!

by The MooCow on Dec 30, 2010 10:05 AM EST up reply actions  

For me to poop on

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on Dec 30, 2010 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

spot on - not one word out of place.

My compliments, Twin. . . .

An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.

HL Mencken

by akaitori on Dec 30, 2010 8:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I suffered internet problems yesterday.

But I think this is the best criticism of deciding to get rid of Ryan while keeping Theriot and Schumaker. Even having one of the worst offensive seasons in MLB, Ryan was still a 1.0-WAR player. Schumaker and Theriot each have to hope that their luck turns around to reach that level.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 31, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

and Albert can play 10 more feet to the right

to cover Skip’s left

Your 2011 St. Louis Cardinals: The Riot 4, Rasmus 8, Pujols 3, Holliday 9, Berkman 7, Freese/Craig 5, Molina 2, pitcher, Greene 6

by gocards62 on Dec 30, 2010 10:53 AM EST up reply actions  

What happens against lefties?

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 11:02 AM EST up reply actions  

extreme shift

holliday comes in to 2nd, skip moves to shallow right

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 11:07 AM EST up reply actions  

With an offensive minded manager?

TLR doesn’t have that much imagination.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Skip Schumaker is not the problem

He was and is a part of a scheme to condition the fanbase to a second rate defense all in the name of signing Albert. I totally respect Albert for all his talent and accomplishments but this is insulting to the intelligence of the fanbase and I for one resent that the FO would even attempt such a cheezy thing. Until the FO owns up to their antics and get rid of all responsible I can’t
see how there can be a legitimate effort to present a respectable defense on the baseball field. What has led them to think offense alone can carry this team to success in the playoffs This organization is tettering on the edge of collapse should it continue on it’s current path. It is difficult to respect the current FO from owners down to Mr. Larussa for what they are doing. I am horrified at what I see happening right before my eyes. I pitty the manager that follows Larussa. These folks no doubt work for the small bears. Pray for new owners in 2011 or we will be fighting the small bears for last place in the NLC.

by cardsfanatic on Dec 30, 2010 9:26 AM EST reply actions  

people with no long term horizon should not be making personnel decisions

bdw’s endorsement of tlr is the biggest problem the team faces
who knows what jmo would do if not so shackled, we’ll probably never know

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR

by sportsman on Dec 30, 2010 9:59 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure sure what you mean about the playoffs part of your argument

I thought I read somewhere that after starting pitching, offense is the most important thing for success in the playoffs (probably that it correlated the least worst, in other words). I could be wrong.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 10:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Offensive slumps

come more often than defensive slumps. You can’t win a game 2-1 or 1-0 without a good defense. If your team slumps with the bat then you better have good defense. I bet our pitchers value defense more than TLR or the FO.
There needs to be a nice balance of all three elements…pitching, hitting and defense. We don’t have it.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

I like the idea of balance too, actually

Especially with lineups. I hate giving away PAs. I also don’t like the idea of downgrading the infield defense while still depending on a groundball heavy staff, so I am generally in agreement about this worries of this team.
I am still confused about his comment about “success in the playoffs” though. Did cardsfanatic mean “carry this team to success in the playoffs” in the sense of making the playoffs to begin with, or in the sense of succeeding in the playoffs themselves?

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 10:17 AM EST up reply actions  

yea,
success in the playoffs

I don’t get that either. That’s putting the cart before the horse. I guess you always have to be thinking playoffs but you have to figure out how to get there first. You can’t go to Disney World if you don’t have the money, but you can dream about it.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Balance

I would argue that this team will be more balanced than last year’s. Last year’s team had an above-average defense – - it ranked 6th in the NL in the percentage of balls in play turned into outs, only 1 spot worse than it ranked in 2009.

Despite all of the caterwauling on here, Ryan Theriot is likely no worse than an average SS defensively. Lance Berkman is a worse RF than Ludwick/Jay/Winn/Craig/Stavinhoa, but not that much worse that he is going to turn this team into anything less than an average offensive team. 35% of the inning played in RF last season were played by “minus” fielders (i.e. other than Jay and Ludwick). (And FWIW, neither of the defensive metrics that BPro uses particularly liked Jon Jay as a RF, one having him as a -5 and one having him as a 0.)

The Cards are likely to have an average defense next year.

Their offense is likely to be much better, if just from regression to the mean from a luck perspective, to say nothing of replacing Boog with Theriot, adding Lance Berkman to the mix, and a full year of David Freese .

The pitching personnel is unchanged from the end of last season.

Your claim that the 2011 Cards don’t have balance doesn’t hold water.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 30, 2010 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

isn't 6th out of 16 pretty average already?

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

I guess

8th out of 16 would be average, 6th would be slightly above average. What’s changed for the coming season? The prospect of having Freeze all season (we’ll see) and Theriot in place of Ryan, and Berkman as part of the rightfield circus.
Can somebody analyze this and tell me we’ll be better than 6th?

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

working on the assumption that...
Their offense is likely to be much better

and

The pitching personnel is unchanged from the end of last season

and
The Cards are likely to have an average defense next year

I don’t see that as balance, not really.
and also, about the defensive metrics…
one having him as a -5 and one having him as a 0

numbers are hard. How can there be any discrepancy at all? It’s all in how they’re crunched.
So,
Your claim that the 2011 Cards don’t have balance doesn’t hold water.
depends on how many holes are in the bucket.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 10:49 AM EST up reply actions  

So. . .

do you believe that the 2009 team was balanced?

by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 30, 2010 11:10 AM EST up reply actions  

more than 2010

and possibly more than 2011. But the opposition has changed as well, so how balanced we need to be is uncertain.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

In all fairness

2010 was so bizzare that I don’t even think it’s worth comparing to. Way too many factors at work all at the same time, and throw in poor managing on top of it makes it a really odd season.
The pitching staff was good…pretty consistently, but hitting and defense suffered terribly, partly due to injuries and no suitable backups, no depth. That’s why I thought Ludwick for another pitcher was wrong and not making 2nd base a top priority now was wrong. But what do I know?

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Hitting and defense suffered terribly?

By the numbers, in 2010 the Cards were 5th in runs/game allowed (a measure of both pitching and defense, admittedly), 6th in Defensive Efficiency, and 6th in runs scored/game*.

Unsurprisingly, given those numbers, the Cards were 6th in wins.

  • - This is actually not the best stat, it should be runs/9, but it is unlikely to make a material difference.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 30, 2010 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure I understand your point.

regardless of what the numbers say, it wasn’t pitching that failed us this year and everyone knows that hitting was lacking big time in key situations and the infield and right field was a complete merry-go-round. The season was a failure for a variety of reasons but mostly hitting and defense.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

we'll just have to agree to disagree

but I see balance as totally relevant unless your offense is just absolutely monstrous. defense is what keeps you from giving up more than you score. If you can score 10 runs per game then I guess balance would be less relevant. but if you score 5 runs per game or less you need some defense and pitching.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

You touched on where I have the biggest problem with the MI moves.
The pitching personnel is unchanged from the end of last season.

Last year, the Cards finished up as the #2 GB staff in the majors, behind ATL, with 49.5% GB rate. With a full year of Westbrook, we should probably finish first next season. Getting a marginal offensive upgrade at the position, while moving to an average defense at SS, is , IMO, a recipe for disaster on this team.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 11:18 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

i don't understand why the FO doesn't get this, seriously, how can they not know this?

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 8:36 PM EST up reply actions  

because tlr

it wasn’t about better or worse, it was about no boog
and who they could get for free (or one hawk)

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR

by sportsman on Dec 30, 2010 10:54 PM EST up reply actions  

i get it was to appease TLR, Albert & whomever else disliked Boog

what i don’t appreciate is once again the team is treating all it’s fans like they are the drunk morans who start the wave in the 8th inning of a 1 run game with the go ahead run at 3rd. we all aren’t brain dead idiots. a lot of us are actually pretty damn smart. not me of course, but most of you all here. only the GOB’s knows how i ended up with an invite to this party

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 11:04 PM EST up reply actions  

it;s beyond pulling out hair

it’s stabbing self in thigh with tweezers. Not even sharp tweezers, anymore.

OK, not really. but figuratively. B-R was so perfect for this team, the way it has been built, from the ground up, for years… I just don’t get it.

If Mo, or TLR, or someone, could just TELL ME WHY, without some hint at “he annoyed Kyle Lohse regularly” or “one time, he annoyed CC”. That would really, really help.

Not sure I've seen dumber baseball words: "Brendan Ryan became expendable after (Cardinals) acquired infielder Ryan Theriot." -Joe Posnanski

by SleepyCA on Dec 31, 2010 2:46 AM EST up reply actions  

we will never, ever get that because there was no logic or reason why he's gone

he’s gone because he annoyed players wound up so tight if you shove coal up their poopers they’ll crap out the most beautiful & rare red diamonds the world has ever seen

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 2:59 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm having a hard time understanding how

going with a more expensive middle infield puts us in a better position to re-sign Pujols.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 10:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Skip is more expensive than Ryan.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 30, 2010 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

in more ways than one!

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

That too.

Ugh.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

sweet i love conspiracy theories

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

why on earth would I pray for new owners?

When DeWitt rescued this franchise from the god-awful 90s. Spent money. And made us a team that contends for a play-off spot year in and year out.

I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill

by Evilfrog on Dec 30, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions  

well i guess you lived up to your screen name

because this is just fanatical

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

not enough "..."'s to be wcbw...

Your team is incompetently run by baseball equivalent of the captain from the Caine Mutiny -DiscoJer

by BVHeck on Dec 31, 2010 3:20 AM EST up reply actions  

skip might bounce back offensively

but the word ‘might’ could be used very loosely. not many people are going to pay attention to skip’s offense, even if he hits .300 like he did in 09. most people will pay attention to his defense.

of course, skip to 2nd was all a part of the FO and TLR’s plan. and it was a foolish one at that. i don’t see why the FO hasn’t gotten rid of tony or when they finally will.

by zoomzoomj88 on Dec 30, 2010 10:01 AM EST reply actions  

The odds are

that Shu will have a better year at the plate in 2011 but I can’t say that about his defense. Nobody was complaining about Shu in 2009 because, after all, it was his 1st year at 2nd base (and he was hitting). I fully expected to see a little improvement, glove-wise in 2010 but it didn’t happen, and, since his hitting suffered as well, he stuck out like a sore thumb as a liability.
 I admit that Skip has a better chance of improving with the bat than Ryan but the opposite is true with the glove…but you never know.
 I’m also old school in that I believe in a strong defense up the middle, so I totally agree that the insertion of Theriot at short weakens the infield considerably.
Just as “man does not live on bread alone”…games are not won on offense alone.
 If skip gets 25 more hits and Theriot watches 25 more balls get past him then where’s the improvement? Skip better corral 25 more grounders at least and Theriot better hit .320. I don’t see either happening.
 TLR’s resume, when he came here, included power teams, and he won with them. It’s the American League way and he’s still an American League type manager. It took him a LONG time to even begin to learn how to handle a National League pitching staff…with help from Duncan, but he is still power oriented and doesn’t fully appreciate the value of defense.
Lets just hope that everything hit to 2nd or SS is hit right at them or that somebody helps the both at positioning.
All we can do is wait and see….but I’m not that hopeful or impressed with either of these two positions. I like Skip so I hope he can improve enough to be better than average.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 10:02 AM EST reply actions  

This was a welcome post. . .

I’ve been beating the drum that Schumaker is an asset that you don’t just throw away for so long that my ears are ringing. No, he’s not Rogers Hornsby, or even Fernando Vina. He’s a guy that has, in the past, shown a consistent ability to get on base at a .350-.360 clip despite being utilized poorly. If he’s the big half of a 2B platoon (310/365/418 vs lefties) that gets replaced defensively on a frequent basis, he can be a real asset.

Is there a guarantee that he will bounce back? No, of course not. But he has a track record of being able to avoid making outs, and on a team with mashers like Pujols and Holliday and (perhaps) Berkman, that is a skill that outweighs whatever decline in slugging he has experienced.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 30, 2010 10:03 AM EST reply actions  

Yeah, the slugging thing doesn't concern me

His year with the highest slugging was a partial season, I think, so it wasn’t necessarily something to expect ever again. Especially since it was inflated by his BA. His slugging went down somewhat while his OBP went up somewhat during the same span.
Skip as a platoon partner would be cool. You meant vs righties, right? Skip/Greene platoon?

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 10:11 AM EST up reply actions  

And...

If he is projecting at .285/.346/.372/.321 and hits better than that AND gets lucky… who’s to say he couldn’t bat .315-.325? There are negative(lastyear) and positive(2011?) outliers… (trying to think positive…)

"I don't like to sound egotistical, but every time I stepped up to the plate with a bat in my hands, I couldn't help but feel sorry for the pitcher." Rogers hornsby.

by pattimagee on Dec 30, 2010 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

they sure can

just look at Miles.
But, does it take real talent to be lucky all year? I’ll have to ponder that.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

not if you're named GDM

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 8:37 PM EST up reply actions  

buck up kid! you're in college dammit! this is the best f'ing time of your life!

get off your ass, go out side & start living dammit! or so help me GOB’s i’ll track you down & drag our ass out to a bar & force you to have some fun

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 11:06 PM EST up reply actions  

It would probably do you some good too, gdm.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 30, 2010 11:25 PM EST up reply actions  

GDM & zoomzoom walked into a bar

that sounds like the beginning of the saddest or most awesomest joke ever

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 11:28 PM EST up reply actions  

my mom use to tell me when I was in high school...
this is the best time of your life!

and I would reply…“this is as good as it gets”?
it always left her speechless.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 11:38 PM EST up reply actions  

it gets better, it all gets better, you just gotta believe & never give up

and drink

a lot

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 11:48 PM EST up reply actions  

well, in my case

mom was right…so far.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 12:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Skip is not an asset

He’s a 1-ish WAR player who receives a disproportionate amount of value on offense.

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Dec 30, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

1 win is not an asset

it only changes playoff expectancy for ~90 win teams by 10% on average!

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

lolololol

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on Dec 30, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

he should never, ever play vs a LHP

that’s part of the problem with TLR’s use of him. He’s way, way below replacement against lefties so we should start ANY right-handed infielder over him when there’s a lefty on the mound. Last year he took 16% of his PAs against lefties and even that, IMO, is way too much. He should never start against a lefty, should always be yanked for Greene/Theriot/PH/even Descalso against a LOOGY, and should basically only face LHP in extra innings when there’s no-one left on the bench.

The guy has a .237 wOBA against lefties. That’s worse than Ryan hit last year, with absolutely none of the defence. If he was used more appropriately, he’d have more value, because his .346 wOBA vs RHP would make him about an average player (pro-rated) even with -10 defence.

It’s all about clever management to get value out of Skip. Unfortunately, we have (IMO) a manager who is pretty poor at handling game situations (at least these days).

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 30, 2010 5:08 PM EST up reply actions  

There was

either a post or fanpost last summer where someone here compared Skip to other 2nd basemen (or leadoff hitters) offensively, and showed that he really lagged behind the others in scoring runs because of fewer 1st-3b on singles, stolen bases, and so on. Sorry, I wish I could reference it, but that has also stuck in my mind as a Skip deficiency.

by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Dec 30, 2010 7:47 PM EST up reply actions  

wOBA?

I thought baseball was about tradition.

Sign Carl Pavano!!!

by guayzimi on Dec 30, 2010 10:17 AM EST reply actions  

You want tradition, huh?

I got yer tradition right here, pal!

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 10:20 AM EST up reply actions  

That's off the charts!

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 10:32 AM EST up reply actions  

I wonder how the Cubs feel about that.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 10:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Me Likey the Post

I happen to be a fan of Schu, weaknesses and all. I can’t fault the FO for taking a .300 hitter who does not fit in the outfield and try him at 2B, where has had some experience. Albert gets no RBI if no one is on base for him. Schu is probably our best alternative at lead-off. Hit .300, don’t steal any bases (thus reduces intentional walks to Mang), little power, etc.

What does the VEB community think about our 3B back-up plan? Are we not taking the same approach? Good hitter, now in the OF, used to play 3B … sound like anyone named Craig? We don’t expect his D to be first rate do we? But, if he hits, we will love it!

Seems like the FO is trying to make the most of the parts it has in the system, given the payroll limitations. BTW, I don’t see the FO trying to minimize defense due to payroll. Seems to me they are trying to make the best of imperfect parts in the machine.

SD

by Gibby45 on Dec 30, 2010 10:52 AM EST reply actions  

difference with craig is

he actually played 3rd as a professional. Schumaker hadn’t played in the infield since college, IIRC.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 10:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Disagree

for the most part.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 10:59 AM EST up reply actions  

bacon with leather!

better yet…beef with leather. Yum!!!

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 11:01 AM EST up reply actions  

U guys Suck!

:=8P

G-O-H-O-H-O-9-O!
G-O-H-O-H-O-9-O!

by The MooCow on Dec 30, 2010 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

when the balls hit the top of the wall

they need a little more bacon on the breakfast plate.
When they don’t get past the infield they just need more BEEF!

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

the SCHU-MAN cometh. Lock up your daughters!

But anyway; Is Crash Davies a closet Sabremetrician? I like to imagine the rest of the scene goes like this, but was cut down in editing.

Crash: …and your in Yankee Stadium
Nook: Woah, so your saying we should look at other ways to measure batters?
Crash: You got it meat, you know deshpite everythingshs… your my besht…
Barkeep: Get outta here man, enough of your crazy talk.
Crash: Now don’t getsht me started on those pitshing Wings…
Nook: you mean Pitcher Wins? Whats wrong with ‘em?
Crash: They’re determined by the rest team’s offense is whats wrong with them! Awarding them to the pitcher is a sham and is a discredit to the modern baseball fan!
Nook: …
Barkeep: Heresy!
Nook: Haha… your just kidding right man?
Crash: Kidding, what? Like a joke? Does this look like a comedy to you meat? We’ve got Susan Sarandon for f’s sake, she’s about as funny as a bag of monkey scrotums

[at this point the camera’s stop rolling as it becomes clear that Kevin Costner is just drunkenly ranting]

Crash: I tell you what though, i betcha in 2010 there’ll be people what appreciates the finer points of baseball analyshishs.
Nook: C’mon Kevin, we got the scene let’s go.
Crash: AND, there’ll be baseball in Florida! The Cubs’ll win another World Series! Pitchers will pitch fewer complete games! The use of the bullpen will become more defined! The Yankees will move to Alberquerque!

[Costner passes out]

Director: Right, kill the lights.

[Guards attempt to remove Costner, who attempts to hug them]

Scene Ends

by Aranathor on Dec 30, 2010 11:11 AM EST reply actions   5 recs

i'm confused, a bag of monkey scrotums isn't funny?

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 11:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Technically it's a bag of monkey scrota!

If only Billy Beane had been around to pick up Crash Davis. He might have been a F.A.T. DH/back up catcher combo that would have won the hearts of future bloggers with his winning combination of personality and undervalued skillset.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

We have a winner.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 5:30 PM EST up reply actions  

dun dun duuuuun

well played

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....

by d-dee on Dec 30, 2010 5:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Monk-man – please join me in Bangkok. I can take you to some venues where the plurals and plentiful and appropirate. . . .

An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.

HL Mencken

by akaitori on Dec 30, 2010 8:28 PM EST up reply actions  

why is this not green? omg it's soo full of win

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 8:40 PM EST up reply actions  

i was rec #5 so that's why i asked.

it took a while to get through the thread so if someone has pushed it over the edge i have yet so see it since i have not left or refreshed the thread

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 9:41 PM EST up reply actions  

i am as well good sir. i would hate to start off the new year with such a foul taste in my mouth

unlike you my good man who is very accustomed with having strange tastes in your mouth

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 11:08 PM EST up reply actions  

if you don't wake up on new year's day

with a foul taste then you may be wasting your youth.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 11:41 PM EST up reply actions  

i was going after a poor oral sex joke

i do agree with you though. NYE is the one day of the year you best get blasted

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

You're forgetting Mardi Gras and St. Paddy's day.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 30, 2010 11:52 PM EST up reply actions  

and Cinco De Mayo

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 11:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that's my fav "get drunk" holliday.

Cuz we’re the only ones that give a damn about it, the Mexicans don’t even really care that much.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 31, 2010 12:25 AM EST up reply actions  

now diaz de mayo, they go fucking nuts for.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 31, 2010 12:26 AM EST up reply actions  

What the hell is that?

Sounds like a sandwich spread.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 31, 2010 12:31 AM EST up reply actions  

the tenth of may.

it’s like the 5th of may, only twice as awesome.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 31, 2010 12:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Oddly, I've never heard of that.

We oughta start a movement. It would give us a reason to get hammered twice in a week. Not that RR or Aranthor need a reason.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 31, 2010 12:36 AM EST up reply actions  

it was during the lesser known Mexican-Italian war

when Jose Cuervo defeated Chef Boy-R-Dee

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 31, 2010 12:37 AM EST up reply actions  

He does in book.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 31, 2010 12:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Can you imagine what that war would've been like?

The Italians and Mexicans have never been known for their military prowess. They’d probably be reduced to calling each other names and throwing rocks.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 31, 2010 12:42 AM EST up reply actions  

it would have been a soccer match

and the winner would be awarded to the fans who threw the most urine and came up with the most racist chants.

But, oh, could they cook!

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 31, 2010 12:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, the victory feasts would be tales for the ages.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 31, 2010 12:46 AM EST up reply actions  

now that's funny!

I too have been defeated by Jose Cuervo.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 12:45 AM EST up reply actions  

who amongst us hasn't?

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 1:05 AM EST up reply actions  

I had an ancestor in the Boiardi Brigade.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 31, 2010 7:55 AM EST up reply actions  

I think I also had one in the Cuervo Clan

Double drinking for me!

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 31, 2010 7:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Interesting.

It’s been a while since I read up on the Mex-American War. I may have to do that….if I can tear myself away from the VEB for long enough.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 31, 2010 12:34 AM EST up reply actions  

My favorite now

is the 4th of July. It’s our anniversary! So I don’t get in any trouble for getting hammered…and there’s always fireworks.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 12:39 AM EST up reply actions  

As a friend would say:

You wake up thinking a baby dragon shit in your mouth.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 30, 2010 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I fold.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

why didn't the guards hug him back? you always hug a drunk guy back if he hugs you

it’s like the law or science or something

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with all of this bgh; what took me aback

Was actually finding out how lucky skip had been in 09 (when he was worth 1.5 wins or so).

Realistically, skip is a 1 war player. Unless he can substantially improve his defense, he’s stuck in that range. While that’s better than replacement value, it’s a pretty low ceiling for a starting player.

"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."

by tom s. on Dec 30, 2010 11:16 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

Yeah, I sometimes forget that his peak so far has been in 2008, when he did not play 2B yet

As a 2B he’s probably a 1 to 1.5 WAR player when things go right. Part of the problem with Skip is that, despite my honest efforts, I still can’t completely separate him from the Boog issue, they’ll always be conflated in my mind. Brendan’s 2009 was more valuable than any of Skip’s years so far. Skip will probably never be an “average” player overall, because we’ve pretty much seen his peak offensive value and it wasn’t enough to make him average by WAR’s measurement because he loses so much on defense. Boog on the other hand plays excellent defense at one of the hardest positions. So he he can hit like crap and still be somewhat valuable. This still screams “2B is more upgradeable than SS” to me, but that’s beside the point now.
In the relatively small sample we have, Skip lost value (according to WAR) by moving to 2B. He was primarily a LF in 2008 and that’s his highest WAR year. He reproduced that offense in 2009 when he shifted to 2B and his value went down. This makes me want to say that the 2B experiment has not been a success, but that is not necessarily the case. His offense is more valuable from a certain point of view at 2B, partly because it plugs one lineup position with league average offense, and opens up an outfield spot to find a better player.
Anyway, I’m OK with Skip at 2B in a vacuum. But the relation of his roster spot with the Boog thing makes it hard for me to see him that way.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 11:27 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

That's pretty well stated...

In my opinion.
I didn’t have a problem with the experiment at 2nd. It seemed worth a try and at first looked like it might work out. But when Skip and Boog both came out of the box crawling this season it didn’t fare well for Boog (ultimately) and made him the odd man out after Skip picked it up a bit with the bat and Boog didn’t….even though the experiment was turning sour. I’d still rather have Boog at SS and Theriot at 2nd, Skip on the bench and Miles in Siberia.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

I would like that arrangement too

It became clear that we picked up Theriot in order to be able to trade Ryan. I have come to terms with that now, but I will never like it. Having picked up Theriot I would much rather have put him primarily at 2B, keep Ryan at SS, and let Skip and Greene be back up players, Skip probably splitting time between 2B and the outfield. Maybe have Craig be back up corner outfielder and Jay be all-around backup outfielder. And I have no idea if this is even realistic with the limitation of 25 roster spots. Craig might end up platooning with Berkman too.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

whenever there's a blowout game

I like Craig at 3rd for the experience.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I meant to include "Craig as corner infield backup" as well

But Berkman might end up being the primary guy to give Pujols a day off.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

once you can convince Albert that he needs a day off.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

hopefully

that comes against a team that hits a lot of fly balls.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

would hope

saw craig play 1st last spring, and it was not good

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR

by sportsman on Dec 30, 2010 11:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Theriot in isolation

Was an ok pickup to me. I can certainly see why you don’t just hand a job to Ryan, and I feel the same about Schu. I was hoping they might let the whole group (including Greene) compete start to finish for AB’s.

Not how it went, but there’s still a good chance that what we are doing in the IF by May or June will look like something completely different than what we’re planning now.

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 30, 2010 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I pretty much agree with all of this.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Dec 30, 2010 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

last Feb.

I fearlessly predicted that Garcia would be our fifth starter; I was wrong, he became our # 3 starter.
This time around I cast my strong hunch to the wind: Tyler Greene will end up with nearly 400 ABs

by the Tewk on Dec 30, 2010 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

JAIME GARCIA

/obligatory

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Omar

Garcia… parra?

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought it was really stupid that they started him in the rotation to begin with

I guess we’ll see how smart it actually was over the next few years…

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 30, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

if he's given the opportunity

i really see Greene having a strong year too. People really underestimate the strides he’s taken in AAA and, to a lesser extent, MLB in the last two years IMO, even if he is a little old to be any sort of prospect.

Still bitching to contact.

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 30, 2010 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Is 2010 just a fluke year in general?

There has been a lot of discussion and some compelling evidence that the Cardinals were done in by luck as much as anything else in 2010. It appears that the Cardinals had some flukily bad performances (though in fairness we should also consider Matt Holliday’s awesome year, Jaime Garcia’s awesome year, Carpenter’s surprising health and graceful decline so far, Jay’s hitting, etc. when we talk about unexpected bad stuff) and that the Reds may have had a flukily good year overall (lots of overperforming projections, few down years) and that might go back to normal in 2011, to the Cardainls’ benefit (maybe).
Offense in general saw a negative spike in 2010 too, right? Is there any way to guess if that sort of trend will continue? Obviously offense should be expected to regress at least a little, but by how much? Is this the start of a general trend or just one of those wacky years like 1987?

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 11:41 AM EST reply actions  

And unlucky run distribution probably had something to do with it

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on Dec 30, 2010 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Either win 10-1 or lose 2-1,

seemed like the way last year went.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

oh and those nice records against winning teams

and then the record against the division.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Good point, I forgot about that

Not sure how I forgot about it… I guess it’s hard to think about such heartbreak all the time.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 11:51 AM EST up reply actions  

I'd look to the injuries.

they hit on pretty much all the underlying weaknesses.

going forward, it would be nice if the team addressed those weaknesses…

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

/Aaron Miles chuckles in the background.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

is it like Muttley?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4reSPNfBO4

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

yes, but grittier.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

nope

freese is the guy at third. After that its ???? followed by Craig.

I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill

by Evilfrog on Dec 30, 2010 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

excuse me sir,

???? is followed by profit.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

In that case,

I would like to be Cartman, with the stick.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

If Miles makes this team I might root for the Cubs.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Cubs Mariners

turn it up to '11

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 30, 2010 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

If the Cubs beat out the Cardinals

there might be rioting in the streets and the call for somebody’s head(s).

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

pretty much it in a nutshell.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

that reminds me

I found this one day and I just have to ask: What the fuck?!!

If The Cardinals don’t make it then GO CUBS!

Go Cubs? You hurt me Dave. You hurt me deep!

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I was rather flummoxed

he doesn’t even live in chicago!

turn it up to '11

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 30, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I use to!

I always went to Wrigley with a Cardinal hat….and paid my dues.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

You apparently didn't know,

but there was a time that Dave posted only on BCB, as a Cards fan mind you. It was odd going over there, seeing a cards fan on their board, that had never posted on VEB.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

That was an enormous amount of fun!!

I can’t tell you how much fun that was. I got all the abuse I expected and then some.
I just missed my days at Wrigley field wearing red, so I went for the next best thing.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

oh, that was you!

you’re like a minor legend.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

where? on BCB?

maybe I should reappear now and then.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

i've never heard of you, well at least i don't remember hearing of you

i used to drink.

a lot

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 8:51 PM EST up reply actions  

you all would be shocked to know the last time i had a drink

or disappointed, i’m not sure which

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 9:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I use to drink when I was younger.

I’m more refined now so I simply imbibe.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 11:44 PM EST up reply actions  

i need to be more refined, not too refined mind you

but more so than i am now.

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 11:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I use to be schizophrenic to

but we’re ok no.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 12:31 AM EST up reply actions  

never take me too seriously

because I don’t!
I’m Cardinal Red forever.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

well as a person born and raised in St. Louis,

I find it inconceivable for a Cardinals fan to root for the Cubs when the Cards are out of it… or really ever.

I vehemently disliked and rooted against the 2003 team and was villified by Bartman.

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Why does Steve Bartman hate you?

Brendan Ryan is no longer a St. Louis Cardinal.
Fortunately, Aaron Miles isn't either.

by TBender on Dec 30, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

lolo

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

i used that word wrong

whoops… it’s kind of funnier that way though

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

new meme:

stlcardsfan4 has a feud with Bartman

turn it up to '11

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 30, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

see if that sticks?

Me and him could actually be great friends based off what I know about him.

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

he's a dick.

happy?

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

faketweet:

Bartman03: Donnie Jones sucks.

Is it March 31st yet?

by TBender on Dec 30, 2010 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

god that fuckface!

the nerve of him is astounding. Donnie Jones is an elite punter.

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

not as good as andy lee

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

actually they are both better than the cowboys punter

Wow, when the Rams didn’t get any Pro-Bowlers, TST went nuts

I made a huge comment about how they were all being biased and lucky to even have steven jackson…. i actually conceded that even jones probably didn’t deserve to be in it….

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

*1 Pro-Bowler

and it was Jackson who didn’t even deserve it, much as I love the guy

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

sad, the 2 teams playing to win the division

only have 1 pro-bowler between the 2 of them. We have 2, probably a couple of guys that deserved to go as well, and we’re hoping to finish 5-11 for a better draft position.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Pat Willis and Vernon Davis?

Who else deserves it besides maybe Lee?

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

willis and justin smith actually

Davis, Gore, Lee. . . those were the ones I was thinking of. Davis is a first alternate, so he’ll end up there. Spikes actually had a ridiculously good year, but I wasn’t counting him among that group.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah

he’s still an alternate. At the time he got hurt he was something like the 3rd rated back in the league. Blessing in disguise though. If he hadn’t been injured, Singletary probably doesn’t get fired. For as great as a man as he is, he was a big part our problem I’m afraid.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

he's technically a starter according to NFL.com

Jackson has already said he won’t play because of injury

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Gore?

he was like fourth alternate. That many guys have already said no thanks?

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

well, here's the list who won't play because of injury...
The following players will not play in the Pro Bowl because of injury: Philip Rivers, Chargers; Tom Brady, Patriots; Wes Welker, Patriots; Jake Long, Dolphins; Brian Cushing, Texans; Jairus Byrd, Bills; Nate Kaeding, Chargers; Brett Favre, Vikings; Steven Jackson, Rams; Larry Fitzgerald, Cardinals; Sidney Rice, Vikings; Andre Gurode, Cowboys; Kevin Williams, Vikings; Lance Briggs, Bears; Charles Woodson, Packers; Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie, Cardinals; Patrick Willis, 49ers.

That means it’s a joke. Willis is on their too…

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

wait i was looking at the wrong thin

that was 2010 – hold on

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

well that makes sense

yeah no one has bowed out due to injury….

should have been a red flag when i saw people missing Pro Bowl due to Super Bowl…

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

tyler greene?

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I said something similar above...

about 2010 being a fluke. But I’m not sure that Cincy was as much a fluke as we were. Despite their standings, Cincy has been a tough opponent for the Cardinals since Jocketty went there. Over-achievement may be part of it but insight might be part of it also. They beat the teams they should have beaten this year and we just floundered. They’ve been on the rise for the last few seasons and I expected them to get the better of us eventually. Maybe it did take a fluke year for St. Louis for it to happen but I’m not ready to say Cincy had a fluke year…not yet.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I'm not ready to say anything for certain about any of this. But the possible evidence is interesting.

To guard against seeing too much in it I try not to assume anything. It feels like an awful lot went wrong for us and an awful lot went right for them. This doesn’t necessarily mean that 2011 will be a reversal, even if the assumption is correct in the first place.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Eh Cincy definitely got lucky last year

Not a single player drastically underperformed or got injured. Maybe Harrang.

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Dec 30, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I always get mad at people who give Jocketty credit for Reds' success

He came in 2008 as GM in April.

Jocketty signings – Hernandez (2.6 fWAR), Cabrera (1.3 fWAR), Gomes (-0.1 WAR); Laynce Nix (1.5 fWAR); Leake (drafted in ’09; 1.1 fWAR); Miguel Cairo (0.9 fWAR); Rolen (5.0 fWAR)

Pre-Jocketty – Votto (drafted in ’02; 7.4 WAR), Phillips (traded for in ’06; 4.0 WAR), Stubbs (drafted in ’06; 3.2 WAR); Jay Bruce (Drafted in ’05; 5.3 WAR); Arroyo (traded for in ’06; 1.7 WAR); Cueto (signed as amateur FA in ’04; 2.8 WAR); Harang (traded for in ’03; 0.9 fWAR); Bailey (drafted in ’04; 1.9 fWAR); Edinson Volquez (traded for in ’07; 0.9 fWAR); Travis Wood (drafted in ’05; 2.2 fWAR)

Rolen was an excellent signing, but it comes across as blind loyalty as Rolen was legitimately done it seemed. Nix was a good part-time player who had his highest wOBA by .020 points and his highest fielding metrics by 1.3. Cabera was a good bounce-back candidate being worth 3.5 and 4.2 fWAR before he sucked in ‘09, yet still a below average player. Hernandez was also a good signing. Cairo was a terrible signing. His .763 OPS last year was the highest he’s had by far since 2004. Jocketty got lucky with him. So that’s one All-Star, one above average player, one good part-time player, two below average players, and a terrible utlity player.

But Jocketty deserves to be Executive of the Year for being handed Joey Votto, Brandon Phillips, Jay Bruce, and his entire pitching staff save for Mike Leake who he rushed to the MLB stupidly. So basically the core of his team was handed to him and he only needed to get the spare parts. He did a decent job at that.

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

You forgot to give him credit for Chapman,

but I agree, that team was built before he got there.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Why should he get credit for Chapman?

They’re paying that guy $30-50 million to be a reliever (I guess).

Sign Carl Pavano!!!

by guayzimi on Dec 30, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

...while lefthanded.

Brendan Ryan is no longer a St. Louis Cardinal.
Fortunately, Aaron Miles isn't either.

by TBender on Dec 30, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

The question is...

does an A+ pitching prospect ever warrant the contract he got. And he may not even be A+ as his control seems to be a problem.

Sign Carl Pavano!!!

by guayzimi on Dec 30, 2010 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

He's certainly not an A+

His control is a problem, as you say, there is a very good chance he’ll end up as a reliever, and there is a very good chance he’ll get injured. Personally I think Shelby Miller is a better prospect.

But no, I don’t think a prospect should ever get 50 million. Especially a pitching prospect.

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Dec 30, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd think Strasburg was probably worth 50 mil on the FA market

At the very least, if Chapman can get 30 when he had a FB, half a slider, 1/4 of a changeup and shit control, Strasburg is getting at least 50.

Aside from the talent→WAR→wins aspect, I went through it, and just in the 5 home starts he made, he probably made the Nats $7M between insanely boosted attendance, merchandise, ratings, and a halo effect of increased attendance the Nats got before he hit the DL.

And of course he put up an effing 2.15 xFIP in his 68 innings, so even with this year off, I think he’ll still probably end up being worth 50M in FA terms out of the draft.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 30, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree about Strasburg

But he’s kinda special.

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Dec 31, 2010 1:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Just saying he was in charge when they signed him, that's all.

I wasn’t implying anything negative or positive about the shit storm of a contract they gave him.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

doesn't Walt deserve at least some credit

for Dusty continuing to have a ready supply of toothpicks?

by the Tewk on Dec 30, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

what you're saying is

he’s not a horrible GM. that’s true

turn it up to '11

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 30, 2010 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

correct

He’s not John Mozeliak.

/ducks

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

since Mozeliak > Jocketty

you’re right, he is not Walt

turn it up to '11

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 30, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

that's what i meant

actually meant to put no though…

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't really like the word "fluke"

But yeah, we saw a lot of extreme performances from players. And we had a lot of bad luck in terms of run distribution.

Next year things should even out more, and that tends to favor us.

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Dec 30, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I somewhat agree

but lately, the Reds have been sort of like the Cubs for us. I just can’t take them lightly. They could be tough on us despite the standings.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

the Cards always seem to have some kind of bad luck thanks to those bastards GOB's

but i wouldn’t say 2010 wasn’t all it should have been because of bad luck. true they had more than their fair share, but when you run out the mini me’s & club flip’s of the world, stupidly trading Luddy & with batcrap crazy TLR running the show, they’re demise wasn’t all due to bad luck

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 8:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think anyone was complaining too much about his offense

I think we all know he will do better at hitting next season. the question is how much better. the problem we are worried about is that he is really bad at defense. I suppose he might improve a notch defensively, but he still needs to hit like he did in the outfield to make him a worthwhile player, since he’s not really a second baseman.

that said, I hope he has an insane breakout season with league average defense while hitting .310

turn it up to '11

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 30, 2010 11:48 AM EST reply actions  

if he improves "a tick"

he will only be as terrible as he was in 2009, when his UZR/150 was only -8.5 instead of the -17.2 he put up last year.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

how did he backslide so badly?

he got decent in the second half of 09. there was this shred of hope, of not-sucking.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

on his defense? that's a tall order

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

whoops

thought you were talking about offense. I wouldn’t look at half a season of UZR as anything to significant

turn it up to '11

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 30, 2010 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

it's cool. i'm kind of out of it this morning.

i may need to brew more coffee.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Neither of you are as out of it

as I was the other day when I said Brock played till ’71!
It happens!

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

120+ games isn't a half a season

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

forget who said anything?

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

exactly

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

though IIRC he had the same dip as Brendan

they both sucked offensively, and they both leveled out around the same time.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

except with Tony

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I almost replied with "in bed"

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

horseshoes & hand granades?

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Dips like that are bad for the team.

I say we replace them with sunflower seeds.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

rec'd

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

it was a joke?

how can you blame McGwire when he had him before 2010? God Dave you’re killing me today!

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

My bad, sorry.

however…offensively…with the sticks…..I need a scapegoat and Big Mac is as good as any.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

well I guess he's as good a scapegoat as any

I myself, if I needed a scapegoat, would have went with the traditional TLR though.

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

TLR is usefull

as a scapegoat in so many other areas…including bringing Big Mac in. I just want to dump on Mac as well.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Skip tries too hard

for his own good sometimes. Skip may be his own worst enemy.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

his ocd is legend

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

(not actually diagnosed, it's a joke)

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

no you're thinking of Boog, Skip's just not very good

he has to try that hard just to be what he is.

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 8:58 PM EST up reply actions  

we're playing with little mini-me samples of data

it’s more likely that de didn’t

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, ugh. I had forgotten the actual numbers.

I can totally appreciate the idea of making sacrifices to keep certain players in the lineup despite serious flaws. I could even understand trying to do this with Skip in the first place. However, right now I do not think he is a good player to do this with.
On paper, anyway. And on paper I think Ryan was a good candidate for the “keep him in the lineup even though a part of his game really stinks” because he fits so nicely with the team’s philosophy of MI defense. Possibly the greatest lesson from the Boog/Skip/Theriot drama is just how powerful a factor personality can be when it comes to making personnel decisions on a baseball team, regardless of our on-the-field analysis of said moves.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

that's the problem...
the team’s philosophy of MI defense

what is the philosophy?

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Can we get this green please?

Enter vivaelpujols
My great wit allows me to interject that by assuming the partakers of this conversation are inbedded and perhaps romantically entangled, rather than indeed, the truthful observation that they are both platonic and standing upright. Great comedy may be produced!! -Aranathor

by hazel on Dec 30, 2010 8:07 PM EST up reply actions  

3 moar to go

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 8:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Now it's serious.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 10:12 PM EST up reply actions  

my very 1st green

I feel like Steve Martin…“I got shoes! I can be somebody”
Thank you!

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 11:47 PM EST up reply actions  

The philosophy as far as I can gather is:

Have good defense up the middle, not just because it’s old-school, but because middle infield defense (I guess really it should apply to all the infield, but I digress) will help with our groundball pitching strategy.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

so is the stolen base

and manufacturing runs.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Stolen bases are pretty properly rated.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

That's probably true

since it’s not used nearly as much as it use to be. It’s properly rated for today’s baseball.
Don’t get me started!

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 1:22 PM EST up reply actions  

what is a manufactured run?

That seems like a term people like to use that doesn’t really have a definition.

Silly humans, this world is for robots.

by azruavatar on Dec 30, 2010 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I honestly think (and this isn't an insult to Dave Pendleton or anything)

that you can sum up “run manufacturing” pretty well by saying they are “inefficiently produced” runs. That is, runs created in smaller bits. Sometimes these smaller bits are way easier to get, individually, than more efficient, larger bits, like homers and doubles. So there are going to be situations where you might have the skills required to take advantage of this.
There are situations where you just need to score, plain and simple, and the amount doesn’t really matter. Right? I wonder if having more “small ball” skills might help with evening out run distribution…

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

not a insult at all

but I really can’t grasp the idea of “inefficiently produced runs”.
Small ball often produces runs with few hits. That’s pretty efficient.
But you have to have a team that can do that and a mindset that can do it. This team isn’t based on speed, base stealing or daring. They wouldn’t do that well trying to play small ball, but now and then they should try it just to keep the opposition on their toes. That alone is worth something. Just knowing that my opposition might very well try something like that more often will make me a little nervous.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

inefficient because

bunts and hit and runs and stolen base attempts are inefficient in their ability to improve run expectancy

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

could it be

efficiency is unamaicen?

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

effinciency

is becoming un-American more and more by the day.
let’s see, so far we have…
anamerican, unamerican and unamaicen.
What are we talking about here?

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Screw it, I'm moving to Freedonia.

Hail, hail Freedonia
Land of the braaaave aaaaand freeeeee!

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

nah,

I have a friend from Freedonia and he says it’s not what it’s cracked up to be.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Really?

Dang. If only Rufus T. Firefly were still around…

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

well, maybe

HRs are definitely efficient run scoring mechanisms

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

remember when last year...

we were hitting a lot of home runs early and winning. People then said we were hitting to many home runs.

Then we started hitting less home runs. And losing. And people said, “told you we were hitting to many home runs.”

I don’t understand those people.

I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill

by Evilfrog on Dec 30, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, you mean my brother in law!

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

you sonofa,,,,

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 9:01 PM EST up reply actions  

More or less, yeah

I meant the following: the more individual events you need to score, the less “efficient” (not necessarily bad) you are at scoring. Small ball takes singles, stolen bases, getting the extra base on other peoples’ singles, etc. That’s more individual events. A home run or back to back doubles almost always scores a run, whereas to score on two singles you’d need some other stuff in the middle.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

in other words...

working less for a run = better efficiency? Well sure, that’s obvious, but losing a game by relying on hitting alone can be costly in it’s own right.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, that can totally be true

I wasn’t using the terms “efficient” and “inefficient” in positive or negative ways, I was just using them descriptively, in an isolated sense. I totally think baseball teams should use “inefficient” or “small ball” methods when they make sense.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

2 runs on 1 hit = efficiency

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

which is derived from power more often than not

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

these days

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

number of hits is a poor way to look at it

as previously stated, outs and PAs are the currency in baseball, so that’s how we should be looking at it

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

runs are a pretty good currency

no matter how you get them. Wins are the ultimate currency, no matter how you get them.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

if you give up outs,

it makes getting either of those harder to get.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

what matters is if the result is a win

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

right, but pissing away outs,

decreases the chance that the outcome will be favorable.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

it's directly related

to a team’s ability to pull it off. If the team plays a little small ball every now and then and uses it as a weapon, with success, then it’s not necessarily pissing away outs. Sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes the bear eats you. It’s not a whole lot different than loading up the bases in order to get a force out at any base. If it works you’re smart, if it doesn’t you’re an idiot, but of course the chances of being smart is related to how good your defense is. That could also be pissing away an out if it doesn’t work.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 6:23 PM EST up reply actions  

If it's the late innings and there's a man on second with no outs and we're down by one or MAYBE tied

I’m okay with bunting

In other situations, small ball decreases run expectancy

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on Dec 30, 2010 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, my situation decreases run expectancy as well

But increases the probability that we score one run

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on Dec 30, 2010 6:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Unless your mom's there,

then everybody scores.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Oh goddammit

I’ve been more or less away for the last week and this is the welcome I get from you?!

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on Dec 30, 2010 6:33 PM EST up reply actions  

hmm
bunts and hit and runs and stolen base attempts are inefficient in their ability to improve run expectancy

I need to chew on that for awhile.
Is that an accepted concept or is that something you’re saying on your own?
I can’t easily accept that after watching so much successful small ball….however….this is a different era so it might be true today.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

small ball is just a way of coping with not much offense

it’s more that the teams were good because of plus defense and effective pitching.

turn it up to '11

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 30, 2010 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

And season's like Jack Clark's absurd 176 OPS+ in 87

and Clark and McGee’s awesome 1985 seasons.

they had plenty of offense; Normally one big hitter, two or three above average, a couple of average hitters, and two or three black holes in the lineup (P included). Sound familiar?

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll trade what we have for that.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

uhm no

we have Pujols, who is eleventy billion times better than Jack Clark

turn it up to '11

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 30, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, he has fewer automobiles.

Brendan Ryan is no longer a St. Louis Cardinal.
Fortunately, Aaron Miles isn't either.

by TBender on Dec 30, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

But those times were a LOT more fun.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

isn't that always the way it is

i’m sure your dad told you that that boy bob gibson just doesn’t play the game the right way and he pined for the days of scooter mcjabber

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Scooter McJabber was a helluva player.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

he was a winner!

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

played the game the right way.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Chico Esquela was better than Scooter Mcjabber

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 5:08 PM EST up reply actions  

My dad

fully appreciated Mr. Gibson and Mr Dreysdale the same way I did, and he really enjoyed the small ball era we had. In fact, we agreed the Herzog was the best manager we ever had, and he remembered more of them than me.
But I could never convince him that Don Blasingame wasn’t the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah the last decade sure did suck.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

i hate winning world serieses

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

i know what a heap of crap

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

i know what a heap of crap

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

compared to Whitey's teams

I have to agree.
The only real difference is the amount of fun in each era. 80’s > the last decade.
What do we call this last decade, anyway? the 0’s?

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

The oughts,

as in, they ought to have won at lest one more world series.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 5:16 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

oughts is correct

if I’m spelling it out. How do I do something like the ’80’s ’90’s ’00’s? ’0’s? what is it? I guess ’00’s would be it.

as in, they ought to have won at lest one more world series.

Don Denkenger comes to mind right off.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 6:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Aught's

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions  

well, I'm sure some would disagree

having Pujols on your team > Whitey Ball

at least I’m assuming some people have this opinion

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 5:39 PM EST up reply actions  

there's room for some equality there.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions  

how old are you?

~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~

by TomCat009 on Dec 31, 2010 2:07 AM EST up reply actions  

compared to what?

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 2:20 AM EST up reply actions  

that was aimed at the kid

pertaining to Whitey Ball, I am just guessing at 17 he has watched more Pujols than Vince Van Go

~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~

by TomCat009 on Dec 31, 2010 2:29 AM EST up reply actions  

you have my attention!

let’s hear it.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 2:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Yep Pujols is absolutely amazing

probably the best RH hitter of my lifetime

~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~

by TomCat009 on Dec 31, 2010 2:37 AM EST up reply actions  

I can't wait to see his final numbers.

I hope I live that long.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 2:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe tomorrow?

I can’t stay up any longer.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 2:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Seriously?

If you’re serious I’d like to know who they are. Or are you just kidding? I can’t think of anybody off the top of my head.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Jan 1, 2011 1:07 AM EST up reply actions  

I was saying "few"

Meaning I could only think of a couple – maybe Ruth?

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Jan 1, 2011 3:56 AM EST up reply actions  

ok thanx

I mis-read. I thought you said “a few”.
Ruth, of course.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Jan 1, 2011 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm with you on that.

Most people at 17ish think they know more than they do and they usually don’t know much more by age 20.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 2:32 AM EST up reply actions  

ok?

that’s not what he was saying at all, but thanks for the comment about my age…

You are telling me no one thinks having Pujols on team is better than Whitey Ball?

That’s why I said I’m sure some believe that…. not that I believed that, hence I was trying to prove why it was an opinion…

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 31, 2010 3:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Well thats just like your opinions, Man

~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~

by TomCat009 on Dec 31, 2010 3:11 AM EST up reply actions  

it's getting hard to tell

who’s replying to what at this point.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 9:44 AM EST up reply actions  

I think that has more to do with your life than with the actual baseball

at least, probably. I’ve had more fun watching Pujols, quality pitching, and boog than I did with the 80s teams, even as a kid. TLR can be aggravating though.

both teams are equally successful

turn it up to '11

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 30, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I will say

That watching Pujols has been extremely enjoyable. I’m glad he happened in my lifetime. I can add him to a list of greats like Musial and Mays and others that I’ve been fortunate enough to see play. But I can’t compare any single player to a style of baseball. For me personally, the 80’s were the most fun because we won in so many different ways. It wasn’t just get on base and drive ’em in.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, it's not entirely that now either.

We’ve seen some stellar defense and Cy Young-worthy pitching over the last decade. It hasn’t been solely about the long-ball.

by spants on Dec 30, 2010 5:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't disagree with that at all.

I just miss the other elements that don’t get used much or don’t get used at all. Double steals, delayed steals, stealing home, squeeze and suicide bunts….and the constant threat of them were just so much fun.
That style is passe but might come around again. I’d like to see it come around again, but that’s just me.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 6:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I miss it too

I think it will come back around again, if it hasn’t already. won’t be doing that too much though until larussa is retired

turn it up to '11

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 30, 2010 6:59 PM EST up reply actions  

thank you!

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree that it can be exciting when executed well.

I stole home once during a softball game. It was fucking fun! Many years later, I ran into someone who was a parent of one of my teammates. He didn’t bring up my powerful bat or excellent defense. He brought up my steal of home plate.

by spants on Dec 30, 2010 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Most excellent point!!!!

As my baseball memory fades (and yours will too) I remember things, sometimes vividly, about the ’80s.
After that, for this era, it will be mostly Albert and Big Mac, ect….more about players and not so much about how we won.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 7:25 PM EST up reply actions  

that's really subjective though

although, I bet I end up saying the aughts decade was a lot more fun than watching the 2040s teams…

then again, Pujols is the greatest player in the game so that would make sense

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

when i'm in my 40s or so,

I’ll say this decade was the best of my baseball fandom because motherfucking Albert Pujols was playing. Got it?

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

the 80s were very entertaining and successful

3 world series one championship

the aughts were very entertaining and successful, 3 world series and one championship.

just 2 different styles of play, I think the aughts style was slightly more entertaining with Pujols and Waino… although Ozzie was hard to beat, and the 80s teams were more unique.

turn it up to '11

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 30, 2010 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I only remember two world series.....

did I miss one?

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

there were like ten last decade

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

whoops

yeah guess there was just the one

turn it up to '11

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 30, 2010 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

no, there was two!

get it together, chitown!

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

fuck

no one should have to work today, what am I doing here.

turn it up to '11

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 30, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

the more important question

what am I doing here? I’ve seen all of my patients and have nothing to do for an hour and a half.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Is engaging in

witty, urbane conversation nothing?

The Mang does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man.

by alberich on Dec 30, 2010 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd much rather be on the road

have to go see 2 home health patients before I head home myself.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

But think of the insights you garner here

Sharing them with your patients will unquestionably enhance their therapies

The Mang does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man.

by alberich on Dec 30, 2010 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

no, not really

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, well ...

I guess you need a better class of patients. Or at least different. Does the AMA accredit Diseases of Baseball Fans as a specialization?

The Mang does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man.

by alberich on Dec 30, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn't be surprised

It is amazing (and disgusting) to me some of the diagnoses that I see.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I imagine OCD would cover most cases

The Mang does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man.

by alberich on Dec 30, 2010 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought the game as played in the 80s

was far more entertaining. Stolen bases kept the action going.

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Dec 30, 2010 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

I can see where people would like the 80’s more, and it not be “the good old days” stereotype.

I probably liked the 80’s better, but I was a kid that traded my Ryne Sandberg rookie card for a stack of Jeff Lahti’s, Tom Nieto’s, and Kurt Kepshire’s. I probably didn’t have a firm grip on reality then, so I may not the best example to use.

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 30, 2010 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Its closer than you think

Clark posted a 153 ops+ in three seasons in St. Louis playing in a relative pitcher era in a pretty extreme pitcher’s park as far as HRs go. Pujols in his 10 years has posted a 176 ops+. Obviouly in terms of overall production it isn’t close, but Clark had a couple of fine years in the Lou. Now just imagine how many more homeruns Clark would have hit if he played in the aughts.

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Dec 30, 2010 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

doesn't this plus business adjust for all that?

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I never belived homeruns adjust well between eras.

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Dec 30, 2010 8:45 PM EST up reply actions  

i have no opinion

do you have an explanation for this or just a feeling?

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 9:42 PM EST up reply actions  

but we're talking about the 80s

wasn’t it the dead ball era when they were really big? i don’t really know

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 10:16 PM EST up reply actions  

They were bigger.

But not as big as, say, Polo Grounds.

by spants on Dec 30, 2010 10:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Quit talking about things getting bigger.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 10:24 PM EST up reply actions  

dammit you beat me to it!

i was typing out the same thing

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 11:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I bet, somewhere, in 1984

someone was complaining about how Whitey doesn’t do things the way Red did. And in 1965 someone was complaining about how Red doesn’t do things the way Billy Southworth did. And in 2040, someone will be complain about how the current software version managing the Cardinals doesn’t do things the way Tony did.

Whitey Herzog isn’t walking through that door!

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

he might be

he speaks to TLR sometimes. And it wouldn’t surprise me if he has to walk through the Manager’s door from time to time for their chit chats.

I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill

by Evilfrog on Dec 30, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

no, not that door

the other one. Door number two.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

not that it does any good.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I wasn;t around for Billy Southworth...

I’m not that old, but I was for the rest of them. I don’t recall anybody complaining during Herzog’s years about his style of baseball…not at all…and the Redhead was right there with him.
I’m not going to miss Tony or his style one bit after he’s gone. I can’t speak for anyone else but I’m guessing most fans won’t either.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Not one person complained about Whitey during an entire decade

fascinating.

Praise be to Herzog.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 3:20 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Hmmm...

Claims get made that TLR is both GM and manager. And he gets nailed for it.

Herzog was GM and manager. And he gets praised for it.

Is it March 31st yet?

by TBender on Dec 30, 2010 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

technically he was GM from when he started

and then let himself go in 1982 so he could focus on being a manager

am i right?

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Herzog had the smarts for it, Tony doesn't.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 5:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I see comments like this a lot, and it seems to boil down to a theory of

“Only Whitey could have won with the teams he had and anyone could have won with the teams Tony had.”

Which is an unbelievably flawed premise, but I’ll be damn if seemingly half of Busch Stadium doesn’t believe it.

They were/are two incredibly gifted managers who were both incredibly stuck in their ways, hardasses, and extremely successful. Really, really similar people.

Of course, one has a flat top, goes by a nickname, likes to fish, and pounds Budweiser… basically a true Hoosier. The other in a vegetarian, has a law degree, drinks wine and prefers to live in Northern California during the offseason (God forbid)… Basically everything Hoosiers hate.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 10:16 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

niether of them are from Indiana

and I bet hanging out with Whitey is a helluva lot more fun than hanging out with Tony.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Hanging out with an undertaker would be more fun that Tony.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 30, 2010 11:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I bet he says words like "helluva" more, yes.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 31, 2010 12:12 AM EST up reply actions  

yes

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 12:24 AM EST up reply actions  

You're twisting my words

but I get the sarcasm. I said “I don’t recall anybody complaining….” I don’t know everybody so I wouldn’t say that not one person complained. Sure somebody did. There are some people that would sit under a ham tree and complain about not having bread bush nearby.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 5:38 PM EST up reply actions  

The thing about that is,

it’s really easy to complain nowadays. These intertubes made places like VEB possible. What was the only outlet to complain back then? Radio? (And I’m seriously not sure what kind of sports programming was on the airwaves back in the 70’S AND 80’S in major markets.) My point is, todays technology has a way of turning casual fans that used to get bits and pieces of info or games (Hell, when I was a kid, all I got was the game of the week on Saturdays), whereas today we all can watch every game, and go off on the internet while it’s still being played.

My point, if Whitey was managing today, I’m sure there would be a part of the fanbase that would skewer him daily.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

If God was managing today

part of the fanbase would be bashing Him.
But the 70’s & 80’s weren’t exactly the stone age just because there was no internet. There was radio, newspaper write-in columns, more people could afford to go to the games and just as many people could watch the games on TV. The sample size of complaints may have been smaller because of the limitations of their outlets but the call-in shows were a pretty good indication of the general feel for the team. And they were mostly positive, as I recall.
Also, I can’t say with any confidence that these blogs actually represent the bulk, or large majority, of the Cardinals fanbase any more than the radio call-in shows. Both are just a sample.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 7:17 PM EST up reply actions  

There are those who call into radio shows.

There are those who don’t and never would.

by spants on Dec 30, 2010 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

well

the change in run expectancy for sac bunt attempts indicates that it’s almost always a bad idea. however on trying to find a specific study about it for you to read, i stumbled upon an interesting opinion of MGL’s

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/article/who_the_hell_is_richard_justice/

it’s about halfway down and starts right after the blue link

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

You are 180 degree wrong

the only asset that a team that has that is worth protecting is outs. Outs are baseball’s clock. You have 27 of them in a regulation game (24 of them if you happen to be the home team and are ahead after 8.5 innings).

On average, batters made outs 67.6% of the time in the 2010 NL. All else being equal, all batters are more likely to make outs than they are to not make outs.

So the definition of “inefficiently produced runs” would have to include those produced using (a) a higher number of PAs, and (b) a higher number of outs. The most efficient way to score a run is hitting a HR. Most definitions of small ball include sacrifices (i.e. giving up precious outs), or groundballs to the right side to advance a runner (i.e. giving up PAs without scoring a run). Small ball in all of its forms is inefficient. The SB is efficient in a vaccuum, because you are gaining a base without wasting an out or a PA, but of course the act of stealing a base carries with it the risk of giving up an out.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 30, 2010 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

thank you for your diplomatic reply of
You are 180 degree wrong

.
We have different opinions because we’ve seen different eras of baseball.
I’ve seen the power teams and I’ve seen small ball. Both have merit in their philosophy and both can win. I’ve also seen small ball defeat power, so it can be done if you’re good at it.
I’m not saying that small ball is better. I’m saying that having the ability to play a little small ball (well) is a valuable tool to have when the home runs and doubles experience a drought.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Any run where the runner...

in his trip around the bases advanced at least one base by some means other than a hit or walk.

Sign Carl Pavano!!!

by guayzimi on Dec 30, 2010 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

that's a pretty good simple definition

I’d like to see a study on what percentage of runs are manufactured with this criteria. I’d be willing to guess that it would be a pretty high percentage when you take into consideration sacrifices, wild pitches, stolen bases, advancing on ground balls, etc.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Whitey Ball!

when your team isn’t hitting you find other ways to win. Tony wouldn’t know about that.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

absolutely right.

in that respect this team lacks that as a weapon.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't tell Yadi that.

I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill

by Evilfrog on Dec 30, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

you stole my thunder!

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

remember Tom Brunansky?

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

depends on the pitcher sometimes

and the element of surprise.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

so they... wouldn't be expecting it?

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

indeed.

NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!!!

by The Spanish Inquisition on Dec 30, 2010 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

AAAHHHH

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

...

Is it March 31st yet?

by TBender on Dec 30, 2010 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

is this scoot's furniture?

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

No. It's what he really wanted.

His wife wanted He settled for a sectional.

Is it March 31st yet?

by TBender on Dec 30, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

damn you child

go talk to that TSA agent some more.

I’ve just spent 20 minutes on the phone trying to get a decision on the furniture and still nothing.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

update

$300 re-stocking fee. We’re keeping what we got. BUT the salesman is going to talk to another manager and see if he can get it waived. Which means we would switch because it would save me ~$150. The money is going to be the deciding factor.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

$300 for their error is pretty insane

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 6:43 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah it is

but what can you do other than piss & moan about it? The one we got is just fine and is actually more comfortable. It just doesn’t fit our color scheme real well, allegedly.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 9:01 PM EST up reply actions  

oh no...not comfy enough.

leather tends to stick to your skin. Something in a nice floral pattern, maybe.

NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!!!

by The Spanish Inquisition on Dec 30, 2010 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Brock and Coleman stole with speed and smarts

Yadi steals by surprise.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 5:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Whitey had a lot of guys with really good OBPs

I’m pretty sure Tony would like that.

In fact, Tony actually managed in a manner very similar to Whitey when Tony was with the White Sox (during the same era as Whitey was with the Cardinals). Tony just evolved while Whitey quit on his team and became a folk hero.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Whitey quit on his team?

actually, it was the other way around.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

riiiight...

either way, his deification is weird to me. And I loved the guy!

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

He perceived they quit on him.

The reality was different. I also think it had much to do with the ownership too.

Brendan Ryan is no longer a St. Louis Cardinal.
Fortunately, Aaron Miles isn't either.

by TBender on Dec 30, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

His last year here was chaos

too many players playing for next year’s contract…for individual achievements instead of as a team. Too many players becoming free agents all at the same time (ownership could be at fault) and Whitey just got sick of it.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

This is still my favorite “manufactured run” of all time.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 31, 2010 1:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Link no work

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 31, 2010 7:57 AM EST up reply actions  

It's a manufactured link

we have to band together as a community to make it feasible. It doesn’t matter how many times we miss the site he’s actually looking for. What matters is that once, some group of us will manage to stumble across it. This will probably happen during a dry spell for VEB and then we’ll snap out of our slump thanks to Fritz starting us on our manufactured link.

Silly humans, this world is for robots.

by azruavatar on Dec 31, 2010 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

I am really only a fan

of manufacturing links in certain situations. I think that might help our chances. At the very least, it’s kind of fun to try even if we fail most of the time, right? Isn’t entertainment part of the blog experience too?

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 31, 2010 11:03 AM EST up reply actions  

aww man

open it up in the media player of your choosing:

mms://a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/2005/open/topplays/archive10/05nlcs_gm5_slnhou_pujols_3runhr_350.wmv?ct1=mlb

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 31, 2010 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

I meant

what is this team’s philosophy? I can’t figure out if there is one.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

You mean the 2011 team?

I guess their philosophy is “Freese, Theriot, Skip, Albert will be good enough, and we’re hoping to make up for the shortcomings with more offense.”

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

strong corners and so-so middle

with a ground-ball pitching staff?
that makes perfect sense…to somebody.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Heh.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

make less outs while batting

As philosophies go, you can’t get more basic, or more succesful than that.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 30, 2010 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

no boog

simple

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR

by sportsman on Dec 30, 2010 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

SPOOOOOON!

G-O-H-O-H-O-9-O!
G-O-H-O-H-O-9-O!

by The MooCow on Dec 30, 2010 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

manager factoids

Red was actually called on to manage the Cards again for two games each on two different occasions, following his "retiring’ after the ‘76 season. Both times when Whitey was either on the way in (’80) or the way out (’90).
As a bonus, who can name the interim manager for the last two-thirds of the 1995 season, after Joe Torre was canned?

by the Tewk on Dec 30, 2010 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

yes, his one and only MLB stint

but unless my brain is addled, I think he was also the manager of the Louisville Redbirds for a while. Yep, found it: three years, ’87 thru ’89.
Louisville being, for those who may not know, the St Louis AAA team from ’82 to ’98.

by the Tewk on Dec 30, 2010 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

going forward into 2011, can we stop throwing Boog in there like an apple of discord?

as much as I will continue to point out the chronic wrist injury, the subsequent surgery that cut off his spring training, the swing changes, and the fact that he had no more options… that’s just facts. we don’t know what the new year will bring, but it’s not gonna be Boog. he is not going to come flying into the frame to save our weak grounders.

using him as an excuse to snarl and backbite at each other is a sad legacy for Brendan Ryan on VEB. it’s all hypothetical, now. repeating the same arguments ad nauseum does not make for a less unpleasant winter, or as they say in Albertofstan, the late Ozzies. the apocalypse clause will kick in whether we like it or not. would it be too much to ask to leave it at the spinning?

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 12:01 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

yeah, I don't like the direction this narrative is heading in

he was traded away, now must remember the good memories.

turn it up to '11

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 30, 2010 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree, at some point there should probably be a collective (Boog-ening) agreement to move on.

I can already tell the emotion is becoming less intense when Brendan Ryan is brought up. I am OK discussing him in an academic fashion for at least part of the rest of the off-season, but we will have to start talking about other stuff at some point.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

offseason used to be awesome.

even the existentialism. it’s been dead lately.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

here... have some relevant

naked ladies

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

of course you weren't.

NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!!!

by The Spanish Inquisition on Dec 30, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

boom

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

and for the record, that's the apple of discord.

old school.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

when you say naked ladies...

Let’s stick to this century. Also the person has to be real and living. Otherwise you mislead me.

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

there are naked ladies rules?

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

eww

(mental image of the slow-mo swing analyses done by TPG)

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

picture slo-mo of Prince Fielder instead....

oh.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

why ew?

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

think of all the weird contortions

things will not maintain the proper shape that make them nice. i can’t imagine that the POC would be very endearing

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

well, we'll only know if it's gross if we try it

Chitown, you can start it up since it was your idea.

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

think of all the inverted letters things can make

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

unbelievable

are you suggesting Astroturf?!

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

no

no sliding

turn it up to '11

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 30, 2010 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

especially if they played in the rain.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

are there any other rules that matter?

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I just don't want to be misled.

And if it’s none of the following, I’m misled. But those aren’t actually rules obviously.

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

well the point of leading you to naked ladies

is so one doesn’t open it in the middle of work

it would be like posting this without a heads-up

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

neither living nor a real person

also a guy…. nobody else click on it!

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

oh, so now you're discriminating against the VEBers who like the guys

ironic given this post seems to be about Skip Hotmaker 1

1 accepted meme name, not my invention

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

i was warning the people who don't want to see naked guys

click if you want to see a naked picture of a statue… whatever works

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Truth in advertising, so nobody's disappointed -

it’s a naked statue, not a naked picture

The Mang does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man.

by alberich on Dec 30, 2010 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

D, E, D. Ded!

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

eeeh, tell me don giovanni

your lizzard seems kinda limp…

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....

by d-dee on Dec 30, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, well...

When you get to be my age…

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

if you're too old to cut the mustard

you can still lick the jar.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

RFL!!!!!!!!

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

my sig is for him too.

though it seems the prophecy is indeed coming to pass. needs bigger sample size.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup

Just like Luddy, it’s gonna take a while to get over this one.

Speaking of which, my Ludwick sponsorship at B-R expired yesterday, and after 4 years, I’m gonna let it go. Sigh.

(they want $220 to renew!!!)

Not sure I've seen dumber baseball words: "Brendan Ryan became expendable after (Cardinals) acquired infielder Ryan Theriot." -Joe Posnanski

by SleepyCA on Dec 30, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

they could open Viva El Bar with that kind of money

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm still pissed for letting Carleton go.

Some things die hard. It’s all part of baseball talk. It’s part of the beauty of it. If we can “project” what might happen in the future why not talk about what “might have been”?
Eventually, Boog will be out of the conversations but it doesn’t seem like it’s time yet. I, personally, haven’t finished stewing over it. Maybe by the middle of 2011, depending on Theriot.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 12:32 PM EST up reply actions  

yes, but it's also in rules/guidelines not to keep on screaming about the same damn thing

especially if it doesn’t contribute to the conversation.

as much as I’m pissed off that the number of guys who’ve blocked him at his natural position could fill a starting lineup…. we’re getting really repetitive here. even if it’s a debatable keystone to the failure analysis and behavioral patterns of the organization, i mean, come on. it’s a pattern. that means there are other examples.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

but it DOES contribute to the conversation.

look at how much conversation there is about it. It just doesn’t contribute to everybody’s conversation.
Some of us just still need to vent until it runs its course.
Ever been divorced? It’s similar. It stays with you for awhile and you talk about for awhile until you can shake it. Your friends hang with you till it’s over….the good friends do….usually the ones who’ve been there.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

just read the guidelines

and for the record, I didn’t come to VEB to feel like I was divorced.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

divorce happens in baseball too

Enos Slaughter comes to mind

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

(but they still wish you'd shut up)

The Mang does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man.

by alberich on Dec 30, 2010 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll go chew on a bar of soap, ok?

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

How long did the conversation go on about Ludwick?

pretty close to the same.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

At least he was a good baseball player.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 10:17 PM EST up reply actions  

that's beside the point.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 11:54 PM EST up reply actions  

yes, I hate to see Boog turned into

Michael Vick, Sarah Palin, Brett Favre, Tiger Woods, or (watch out for the next few weeks) Tim Tebow. (VEB version) What I partially mean is just because ESPN believes we WANT to hear about certain people 24/7 and 60/60 doesn’t mean that all of us DO.
I threw in Ms Palin because, like an MSNBC talking head said the other day, “Sarah Palin is in the news again” to which I screamed at the TV (which I am wont to do) no, she isn’t, you’re putting her in there to sell tickets.
As a charter member of the I love me some Boog club, I nonetheless agree it is time to let sleeping Boogs lie.

by the Tewk on Dec 30, 2010 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

"watch out for the next few weeks"

it’s already happened… the only reason he got drafted in the 1st round is because of the lovefest of the media and how good a guy he supposedly is (by the way, don’t take offense to “supposedly”… i pretty much have my doubts about the character of pro athletes no matter what now)

Hell, I’m not a fan of Tim Tebow because of the lovefest.

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

in accord, I accept your timing amendment

we have to concede tho, following an outrageously ballyhooed final college season, the Tebow mania quieted some, since he wasn’t getting much PT in the pros. Now, like the poltergeist coming thru the TV again, he’s baaaack.
aka the Duke syndrome (for me anyway). Objectively speaking, I like the way they play basketball; how come then I do NOT root for them and instead take joy in seeing them lose?
Yankees, Red Sox, Dallas Cowboys, Miami Heat: hard to be fair and objective when you feel like you are in a brain-washing booth so often.

by the Tewk on Dec 30, 2010 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I suffer the Duke syndrome too

Although, I hate Miami for an entirely different reason. LeBron weaseling out of a situation to be the man so that he can defer to Dwayne Wade. LeBron took the easy way so he didn’t have to shoulder the load in NYY or CLE.

But other than that, I mostly root against teams that get all the press.

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

He should have gone to Chicago

There would have been NO answer for a 5 man of Rose-Deng-LeBron-Boozer-Noah

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 30, 2010 9:26 PM EST up reply actions  

i have not yet begun to mourn the loss of Boog & JackADongWick

it still hurts and it will hurt till i see some freaking Cardinals wins. the only thing that will heal me & everyone else is time & wins. right now we don’t have wins & time is not on our side because the Boog trade only just happened. i know i’m still dumbstruck over the Ludwick deal even though it was almost 6 months ago. because it was in season i really never had a chance to process it because i was still focusing on the team trying to make the playoffs. everyone mourns differently & to suggest we all just let it go is both cold hearted & unfair. if you don’t like it fine, you don’t have to participate in it. but you also don’t have to chastise the rest of us who are still going through the mourning process.

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 9:22 PM EST up reply actions   3 recs

rec'd

of course!

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 11:56 PM EST up reply actions  

riiiiighhht, and i'm not in mourning either. uh huh.

you entirely miss the point. we don’t have to be dicks to each other over Boog.

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 31, 2010 12:54 AM EST up reply actions  

i'm sorry, i guess i did. i hadn't seen or picked up on people being dicks about Boog to each other

if that’s all you really mean then of course i totally support that. i thought you wanted the subject of both trades to be dropped completely.

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 1:14 AM EST up reply actions  

I should probably ditto that.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 1:20 AM EST up reply actions  

is it me, or do all the year-end countdowns suck?

I haven’t even seen a cool montage yet. I’m on the edge, man, I’m gonna lose it!!

the inane year-end countdowns were staples, and now they all seem to be boring. can anyone rec a list that seems to be trying?

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 12:17 PM EST reply actions  

I'm not a big fan of NYE

it’s ok I guess, but a pretty lame holiday imo

turn it up to '11

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 30, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

it's awful

doing a small, six couple party this year. One step closer to staying home sans pants for nye someday.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 31, 2010 1:16 AM EST up reply actions  

stop tempting the strikethrough

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....

by d-dee on Dec 30, 2010 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

speaking of that fateful thread

a few days ago on Niners Nation someone left an italics tag open. Someone else was able to close the tag in the subsequent comments.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

i might do this shit now just to screw with you guys

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....

by d-dee on Dec 30, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

aaaaah

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....

by d-dee on Dec 30, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

You weren't here last night.

d-dee is a witch.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

then she should run for office, eh?

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

It depends on how her weight compares to a duck

And I doubt anybody is going to be foolish enough to ask her how much she weighs.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

does a witch weigh more than a duck or less?

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....

by d-dee on Dec 30, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

The same, or less, thus the scales.

What else floats, d-dee.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Very small rocks?

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

They weigh the same

Because: a witch burns, and wood also burns, and wood floats, and ducks also float.
Witches = wood = ducks. It’s fairly simple logic.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

but what if i can't float

and weigh as much as an overweight duck?

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....

by d-dee on Dec 30, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Then you're either

a drowned fat duck or a very small witch who needs to take swimming lessons.

The Mang does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man.

by alberich on Dec 30, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Burn her with a very small fire!

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

haha

you guys entertain me
so i won’t turn you into frogs
not today anyway

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....

by d-dee on Dec 30, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

don't do that

it’s easier to stab frogs

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

The word is

gig.

Is it March 31st yet?

by TBender on Dec 30, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

especially if you're only duck-height

The Mang does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man.

by alberich on Dec 30, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd probably get better.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

that's what evilfrog thought

and see how that turned out

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....

by d-dee on Dec 30, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

plus side is.

being evil is fun.

I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill

by Evilfrog on Dec 30, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

also

how wet they are should be factored in.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

eww

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

he seems hung up on getting ladies wet.

at least, that’s what the z key says

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

we're talking about a wet duck vs a dry duck...or witch

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 5:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's one for you.

Don’t click the dog one.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 5:20 PM EST up reply actions  

damn

should have taken your advice

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 30, 2010 5:54 PM EST up reply actions  

which would be worse

Freese ends up not being as good as we think he will be, or Freese does well again and gets hurt again.

turn it up to '11

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 30, 2010 12:40 PM EST reply actions  

it depends on

Freeze, not as good a we thought, is still better than the backup
or
Freeze gets hurt and we trade somebody for more pitching….or Tony puts Miles at 3rd.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder

when people say Freeze if it’s a nickname, or a willful misspelling

turn it up to '11

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 30, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

It's a clever pun

Referencing the experimental cryogenic treatment of his ankles.

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 30, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

the shankles

shatterin like ice!

turn it up to '11

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 30, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

you know...

I totally missed that. Wish I could take credit for punning. I misspelled Edmonds for a long time because I have a friend named Edmunds. It just rolls right off the keyboard, and it’ll happen again, I’m sure.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I stole this,

But, Hu’s on first.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 12:43 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

that would have been some nice MI insurance

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Something that doesn't happen very often apparently.

Zing!
Actually his minor league numbers are not too bad.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

In fact, his minor league hitting looks like Ryan only a little better overall (not sure about park factors or any other adjustments)

Isn’t he basically a Ryan type player, maybe a little more potential?

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Pedro Feliz

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 12:54 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

I just wanted to see what kind of a reaction

randomly typing Pedro Feliz would have here.

Exactly what I expected!

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

jerk

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

VERY long swing

Boog would have made that play.

by thepainguy on Dec 30, 2010 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Sonuva..

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Dec 30, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

asshole

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 9:31 PM EST up reply actions  

goold with a new bird land

nothing to shout about this time.

Still waiting on that Berkman piece.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 1:03 PM EST reply actions  

heh
Or, just continue to strafe this week’s defensive story with poisonous darts.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

don't they have it with comments?

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

he totally deserves every ouch of crap he gets for writing that stupid story

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 9:32 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

how he there be mediocre baseball writing in december

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 9:42 PM EST up reply actions  

come again?

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 9:47 PM EST up reply actions  

that sentence is broke

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 9:52 PM EST up reply actions  

much like Goold's article

BOOM CITY!

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 9:56 PM EST up reply actions  

that sentence is broken?

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 11:57 PM EST up reply actions  

yep

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 12:24 AM EST up reply actions  

I read that as "anal"

…..

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

What was our over under?

Feb 14th?

Silly humans, this world is for robots.

by azruavatar on Dec 30, 2010 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

scratch that

it was the 15th

Silly humans, this world is for robots.

by azruavatar on Dec 30, 2010 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

That's the most shameful piece of crap written...

since Joe Pos’s last too long blog post.

LET THE SHIT STORM RAIN DOWN!!!

Sign Carl Pavano!!!

by guayzimi on Dec 30, 2010 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I’M SO MAD ABOUT EVERYTHING

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Skip is listed at 5'10", Miles at 5'8"

though I think both are shorter than their listed height, Skip is definitely taller.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

grit negates height

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....

by d-dee on Dec 30, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

not anymore

the box was the booghouse

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....

by d-dee on Dec 30, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Tony LaRussa: 6'0"

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

20 years ago on heels

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....

by d-dee on Dec 30, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm 5'11" and we're about the same height

he’s not exactly short. Much skinnier than I thought, though.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

dusty baker bows his head in shame

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....

by d-dee on Dec 30, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

seriously

I thought they were all required to have skinny lugs and a huge, bulbous gut

turn it up to '11

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 30, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Not Ron Washington.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Cocaine is a helluva drug.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

WHAT DO YOU MEAN "YOU PEOPLE"

Oh wait, you took it in the other direction.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 30, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Connie Mack

6’-1", 150#

The Mang does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man.

by alberich on Dec 30, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Does that include the hat?

Brendan Ryan is no longer a St. Louis Cardinal.
Fortunately, Aaron Miles isn't either.

by TBender on Dec 30, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

uh, he used to play baseball at one point

I have no trouble believing he’s at or around 6’

it is a very hilarious image though, especially given his eccentricity

turn it up to '11

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 30, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

yea, he did...
uh, he used to play baseball at one point

how much better was he than Miles?

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

much worse.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

my point exactly.

thanx

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

what was your point?

You only asked a question.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

you never mad a point with a question?

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Not that I can recall.

that seems like a really silly way to make a point, especially if it wasn’t preceded by anything else.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 10:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Then you haven't fully lived yet, fritz.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 30, 2010 10:39 PM EST up reply actions  

i honestly have no idea what point Dave was trying to make.

i’m mildly interested now.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 10:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I think he was using some kinda reverse psychology sarchasm thing.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 30, 2010 10:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe it's a generational thing?

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 30, 2010 10:49 PM EST up reply actions  

apparently

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 12:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Actually, I knew what you meant.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 31, 2010 12:28 AM EST up reply actions  

i know.

carrots are good for your eyes.
how do you know that?
ever see a rabbit wearing glasses?

making a point with a question.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 12:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I still have no idea what your point was

you asked how much better was la russa than miles as a baseball player. I said much worse and you said that was your point. I have no idea what that implies.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 31, 2010 12:35 AM EST up reply actions  

It was a loose point

and a bit elusive, I admit. But the point was “so what the hell does he know, other than grit”?

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 12:43 AM EST up reply actions  

You mean there's more to the game?

Say it ain’t so Dave!

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 31, 2010 12:47 AM EST up reply actions  

the fact you won't acknowledge he's one of the most successful managers in the history of baseball is strange.

Especially considering the success he has brought your franchise.

He’s not my favorite guy in the world and I wish he would have retired after 2006, but I’ll give the man a certain amount of respect for leading the Cardinals through one of the greatest eras in franchise history.

But, yeah, whatevs, everything was better in the good ol’ days.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 31, 2010 12:47 AM EST up reply actions  

what makes you say....
the fact you won’t acknowledge he’s one of the most successful managers in the history of baseball is strange.

where did I say anything like that?
You’re twisting my words again.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 12:52 AM EST up reply actions  

also

successful doesn’t always equate to better.
I have an opinion (debatable for sure) that there have been better managers than Tony who were not quite as successful…Herzog being one of them, Stengel is another.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 1:00 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't care about whether or not someone was better than Tony

as i prefer to not live in a tinted version of the past. I wonder why you have never said a single positive word about a manager who is just as successful as another manager you sanctify.

I honestly don’t mean to single you out on this — you just perfectly represent the argument people have who love Herzog while ignoring his faults and loathe La Russa while ignoring his accomplishments.

Seriously, what is wrong with what the Cardinals have done since 1996? They just don’t steal enough bases for you?

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 31, 2010 1:06 AM EST up reply actions  

I may not continue

this conversation with you much further if you insist on twisting what I say and injecting insulting comments like

tinted version of the past
, insinuating that I do.
Live where you like, son, but don’t insult me. Disagree with me all you like but there’s no need for your attitude.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 1:17 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm an ass. We all know that.

But if you only want to read selective words of mine, that’s on you.

Sorry the last decade of Cardinals baseball has been so awful for you. I’ve had a blast.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 31, 2010 1:22 AM EST up reply actions  

done

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 1:23 AM EST up reply actions  

cool.

I look forward to remembering how much better internet tifts were in thirty years and thinking of this.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 31, 2010 1:29 AM EST up reply actions  

In thirty years

there won’t be any internet. We’ll all be connected by brainwaves. You’ll just think of that person and the link up will happen you’ll be able to argue with each other with out speaking or typing.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 31, 2010 1:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Y2S can't wait for this day.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 31, 2010 10:15 AM EST up reply actions  

He's got the patent in process.

He’s waiting for humans to evolve to handle it.

Is it March 31st yet?

by TBender on Dec 31, 2010 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Without caring to look at LD%, as it could hurt the presentation,

you should tell him that and that is why he sucked, and maybe then he’d come to appreciate the fact that luck has been quantified.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

TLR will be GM

……….uh, happy new year!

would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 30, 2010 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

death

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 9:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Hopefully

at some animal hospital or something.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

well, he has more grit than Tony...why not 2012?

the world ends after that anyway. What the hell?

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Ambiguous question alert

How do you react to people that 1) purport to be experts on something 2) condescend to others in that area and 3) actually have a pretty bad track record?

I would love to go off on a huge diatribe about this right now (people pay to read their shit nonetheless) but I’m not sure that’s an appropriate reaction. . . It’s just very frustrating.

Silly humans, this world is for robots.

by azruavatar on Dec 30, 2010 4:03 PM EST reply actions  

I would react by naming names

so that others can join in.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

The internet makes it much more difficult to hide your track record.

When I look back on some of what has been written, I’m remarkably unimpressed. There’s also a wonderful element of these individuals being “insiders” or “having been there” as if that somehow rectifies their poor judgment. I just bite my tongue though — which is both unusual and difficult for me.

Silly humans, this world is for robots.

by azruavatar on Dec 30, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

just go ahead and rail;.....

it will be for the best.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

she's going to be a mother! And I'm a vet!

Both very reliable!

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I work with vets every day

DON’T LISTEN TO HIM AZ

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

The latter.

Silly humans, this world is for robots.

by azruavatar on Dec 30, 2010 5:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think anyone spent the Vietnam War playing video games

so like whatever the IT equivalency to what a Marine was in Vietnam type vet.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 10:19 PM EST up reply actions  

hipster?

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 10:34 PM EST up reply actions  

There were hipsters in nam?

I don’t remember that in Forrest Gump.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 10:38 PM EST up reply actions  

comprehension fail on my part

More like Radar from MASH

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 30, 2010 11:08 PM EST up reply actions  

But that Korea

Even though it was really Nam…

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 31, 2010 7:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Actually

it was California.

Is it March 31st yet?

by TBender on Dec 31, 2010 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know about hipsters

but there were a lot of hippies.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 12:06 AM EST up reply actions  

i thought they all moved to Canada?

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 12:23 AM EST up reply actions  

some of us sucked it up.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 12:27 AM EST up reply actions  

you were in Vietnam?

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 12:30 AM EST up reply actions  

no

I was one of the hippies who didn’t go to Canada. I beat the draft (and stayed out of Vietnam) by enlisting in the Navy.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 12:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Ricky Horton was being an ass on FSMW post-game one night.

Talking all sorts of shit about sabermetrics and the people who respect it. So, I sent him some tweets and directly questioned his insulting manner and the fact that not understanding something doesn’t mean it lacks value. He was apologetic in tone and admitted that he didn’t really know enough to come down so hard. It was a nice bit of vindication, I guess, but I have a feeling Horton is probably a less arrogant individual than he portrays himself on TV. Not all commentators or “experts” would have been as conciliatory as he was.

by spants on Dec 30, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe that was the night

that he went on my official “is an asshat” list.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I remember him doing that

I think Horton is probably a decent guy, but that was ridiculous. I really think at the core some of this stuff comes from pure self-preservation.

These are people that are paid to talk for 3 hours straight. A lot of it is going to be pure bullshit by necessity. Like you said, many talking heads don’t understand anything more advanced and, even if they did, they don’t trust their audience enough to talk about it too much. So they talk about how meaningful it is that so and so is 5-9 against a pitcher, or whatever else, knowing that an increasing % of their audience thinks that what they just said was utter bullshit. If too many people thought this way, they’d be forced to change their approach, and it scares them a bit.

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 30, 2010 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Whoa

Psychoanalytic!

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Dec 31, 2010 2:01 AM EST up reply actions  

the impression that i got

is that that was a schtick that FSM kind of made him do

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know if I'd go that far.

He’s a former player and pretty “old school.” I think he believes most of what he says. The way he says it might be the schtick part.

by spants on Dec 30, 2010 7:11 PM EST up reply actions  

if i remember correctly

the segment was called “ricky’s rants” and this was brought up during one of the broadcasts and dan and al were both like “ricky’s rants? wtf. ricky isn’t the ranting type.” he may not have much place for sabermetrics, but i think the whole trying to piss people off thing was something he was told to do

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 7:31 PM EST up reply actions  

It was a postgame thing, and he went off.

mothers basement, never played the game, the whole thing.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 7:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Found it....I transcribed it
We don’t need the Sabermetric, uh, math people to tell us anything different……I’m not really big on all those stats, I think maybe some of those folks should have maybe played baseball before they start to evaluate statistically a players talent. All you have to do is look at AW and the fact that he wins games and he’s out there in the 8th inning….is infinitely more important than any WAR or Whibip (sic) or that stuff……..Whoop de do.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 8:02 PM EST up reply actions  

i remember thinking something along the lines of...

His War is so high because he is out there in the 8th inning. ..

Then screaming “YOU IDIOT” at my tv. I’m sure my wife thought the same thing about me.

I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill

by Evilfrog on Dec 30, 2010 8:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Right.

I think I know what PJ is talking about with that “rant” segment, but it wasn’t what I responded to via Twitter.

by spants on Dec 30, 2010 10:16 PM EST up reply actions  

A brief ironic label, repeated without further comment at every opportunity

For instance:
The Celebrated Cardinal Insider Joe Strauss reports today that …
It is, however, the opinion of Celebrated Cardinal Insider Joe Strauss, that …

Once the tag is established it can be abbreviated:
According to Joe Strauss, CCI …
We are graced today with new insights from CCI Joe Strauss …

The Mang does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man.

by alberich on Dec 30, 2010 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

The alternative, of course, is to ignore them.

Fact is, if somebody’s paid for his writing and his writing’s consistently condescending, chances are he’s paid for his condescension at least as much as for his expertise.

Consider, for instance, political columnists …

The Mang does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man.

by alberich on Dec 30, 2010 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

It's been almost a year

since I’ve listened to, or read, any of Burwell’s work.

I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill

by Evilfrog on Dec 30, 2010 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

not only are you evil, you are smart too

"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....

by d-dee on Dec 30, 2010 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Well...

as someone with an advanced degree in clinical psychology and many years of counseling people who are essentially adrift in their interactions with others such as yourself, I would be happy to help you. Simply contact me and we’ll set up a payment schedule.

Sign Carl Pavano!!!

by guayzimi on Dec 30, 2010 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

cry havoc & let slip the dogs of war

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 9:37 PM EST up reply actions  

JC Bradbury?

I tell him to fuck off.

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Dec 31, 2010 1:55 AM EST up reply actions  

still a head scratcher

this thread reminded me of the day Whitey Herzog quit the team. Or as was suggested, did the team quit him? I lived through it but my memory is vague. Research has been no help so far; namely I brought up the 1990 stat sheet/roster, hoping to be reminded of some trouble-makers or clunkers, people like Gregg Jefferies or a Bake McBride.
Jefferies came after and McBride was long retired.
Suffice to say, none of the names, 1990 Cardinals, even begin to remind me of what the rift was. I do remember Whitey saying, “I can’t mange THIS team (anymore)” But who were the dogs?
Ozzie, Pedro Guerrero, Coleman, Zeile, Oquendo, Pendleton, Milt Thompson,Rex Hudler, Pagnozzi, with significant subs, Lankford and Gilkey. He still has Tudor and my man Tewksbury, with Joe Magrane and Jose DeLeon as the other two starters.
What am I not seeing?

by the Tewk on Dec 30, 2010 6:12 PM EST reply actions  

Whitey was a quitter, obviously.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

What do you base that on, please?

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

You should get your sarcastometer checked

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on Dec 30, 2010 6:56 PM EST up reply actions  

why do you say that?

Its a legitimate question and not sarcastic.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 7:05 PM EST up reply actions  

RR was being sarcastic

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on Dec 30, 2010 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Man, I'm a little slow on that today.

I think somebody else said that in earnest. I got confused. Sorry about that.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

what rui said.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 8:03 PM EST up reply actions  

All I have is my memory too

and watching it unfold. My memory is a bit vague on the details but not on the general play of the team and Whitey’s growing frustration over losing control. And I do remember Whitey saying "I can’t mange THIS team (anymore)". I do remember him getting frustrated with Vince Coleman in particular. Coleman was more interested in racking up stolen bases than he was in hitting doubles. I witnessed that myself a number of times. What should have been a double turned into a single and a steal of 2nd base. I got pissed right along with Whitey. There were others that did similar things but I’d be hard pressed to name names. I do remember, though, that Rex was not one of the dogs and I heard (for what it’s worth) that it pissed of a few other players. Never did I get the feeling that Whitey was a quitter. I felt his pain that year. I hated to see him go but I understood his reasoning.
Stats probably won’t show it because there were some individual performances that looked good but they didn’t play the way Whitey wanted then to. It’s something that you just had to see happen. The team just disintegrated (as a team).

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 30, 2010 7:04 PM EST up reply actions  

This largely happened in 2003

did you blame the players or TLR?

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

two different scenarios

But I’d start with TLR.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 12:12 AM EST up reply actions  

surprising.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 31, 2010 12:13 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Shameless Plug:

Just posted a fanshot tracking the HOF ballots and the initial results. As of current results only Alomar and Blylevin are above the 75% needed, however only 52 ballots have been made public so far.

Bob Feller is THE prime example of a cranky old man...working with him a 8:00 AM has to be one of the most dangerous jobs in America.

by mtzxc on Dec 30, 2010 6:37 PM EST reply actions  

got ass creed 2 in the mail yesterday

holy crap this game is good

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 6:44 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah, your mom's really good in it

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on Dec 30, 2010 6:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I got it off steam the other night.

It was on sale too.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 30, 2010 8:04 PM EST up reply actions  

i got it for PS3 from amazon

$20

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 8:15 PM EST up reply actions  

you & me both mate. you & me both

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 9:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Sneak up behind a donkey when it's taking a dump.

I bet you can get your wish then.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 30, 2010 10:42 PM EST up reply actions  

The real reason not to play Skip...

he is perhaps the most annoying hitter ever. Every single damn pitch he has to step out of the batter’s box, stick his bat in his crotch, and re-do his gloves.

Not since Joe McEwing has a hitter gotten on my nerves so much.

by DiscoJer on Dec 30, 2010 8:55 PM EST reply actions  

haaaave you met Nomar?

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Beliard (sp)

was pretty annoying. Good thing he never got hit in the chin. It would have left him speechless.
But yea, I agree about theSkip/gloves thing.

Baseball is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole.

by Dave Pendleton on Dec 31, 2010 12:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Jeff Luhnow was on the press box this AM for three segments

you can listen to them here if you so desire

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 9:47 PM EST reply actions  

no kidding, i thought frank was smarter than that

seriously y’all, it’s a good listen. if you got the time i highly recommend it

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 11:14 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah what

what am i missing? did they really sign thurston?

Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter

by prophetjohn on Dec 30, 2010 11:17 PM EST up reply actions  

He misspoke

Meant Theriot.

Boog would have made that play.

by thepainguy on Dec 30, 2010 11:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Somesort of infielder freudian slip

this does not bode well.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 11:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Still very high on Kozma

Sounds like he thinks he could end up at SS or 2B.

I don’t know if this is just him defending what could have been a big mistake, but I really don’t see it. Kozma may have the tools in theory, but in that case he says mega underachiever to me.

I’m thinking best case he replaces Skip at 2B.

Boog would have made that play.

by thepainguy on Dec 30, 2010 11:28 PM EST up reply actions  

He's always hyper optimistic on prospects

Kozma is not a MLB player.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 30, 2010 11:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Luhnow does a great job but

take his public prospect evaluations with a deer sized salt lick cube.

Silly humans, this world is for robots.

by azruavatar on Dec 30, 2010 11:45 PM EST up reply actions  

considering how he brought up how good it's going to be for Jay & Craig to be in the same clubhouse

as Berkman & Albert, i’d say he’s just defending what was a big mistake. he’s totally toeing the company line

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 11:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Good link

What I find interesting is that the payroll was $76.2 million in 2002 before it spiked to 101.8 in 2003. In 2010, payroll was 98.4. That $76.2 million in 2002 has the same buying power as $92.7 million in 2010. In terms of real dollars, and looking at a charitable time frame, payroll has only increased about 6 million since 2003.

If you look at payroll since 2006: 96.1 million in 06 is equivalent to 104.3 in 2010. So that means payroll has dropped about 6 million – in real dollars – since 2006.

Two ways I see this. Either they are hoarding money for Albert, or ownership is getting cheap.

by thegodfather on Dec 30, 2010 11:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I mean really

Cardinals have been #4 in the MLB in attendance since 2006. We have a new stadium. They won the world series in 2006. Ticket prices are going up. Why has payroll dropped since then?

by thegodfather on Dec 30, 2010 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

i hope they are hoarding money for Albert, i really, really do

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 11:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I fear that either

We don’t sign him

or

We sign him, and his contract is used as the excuse for having regular seasons and offseasons like this past one every year for the next 8 years. In other words, all moves are lateral at best, and payroll stagnates. How old will Pedro Feliz be in 2018? Randy Winn? Nick Stavinoha only has to have one knee hold up, after all…

by thegodfather on Dec 31, 2010 12:05 AM EST up reply actions  

i share the same fear about signing him & then crying poor because of his & Lego's deals

i’m freaked out Adam & Colby will be traded in 2014 for a bunch of lost cost prospects & we’ll be stuck with the winn’s & feliez’s of the world till their contracts are off the books

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 12:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Well

There was this crazy thing where people were getting/being given housing loans they couldn’t hope to actually pay back, this happened for like 15 years stacked on top of each other because of a perverse set of incentives—-this boosted home price demand way above a reasonable rate. Many of these mortgages were packaged together into securities purchased by banks, and for various reasons, these were not properly rated for the risk of the underlying loans. Basically when housing prices eventually declined, a defaulting mortgage meant a huge loss for the bank that was unanticipated by most. In large scale, this weakened the capital positions of all major banks, and in doing so dramatically reduced their ability to lend money. A lack of liquidity at heavily leveraged firms saw many in fact fail. This contagion spread to almost every sector of the economy and almost all assets have seen dramatically lower valuations. Colloquially this has been dubbed the Great Recession. Most baseball teams during this time have seen their revenues at best tread water, especially teams that are heavily dependent on ticket/merchandise sales such as the St. Louis Cardinals. /snark

Forbes has 2006 revenue as 184M and “Player Expenses” at 103M, 2009 revenue was 195M (5% increase), “Player Expenses” were 111M (7% increase). I would be willing to bet that 2010 revenue did not increase over 2009 revenue since attendance dropped a little bit.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 31, 2010 12:12 AM EST up reply actions  

the Biz of Baseball got all their figures from the AP, i was wondering how many sources

there are out there that list what pro sports payrolls are. i know Forbes is probably the best, but i found it odd they’d use the AP’s numbers & not Forbes.

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 12:27 AM EST up reply actions  

This stuff can vary a ton

Deferred payments, incentives, etc.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 31, 2010 12:34 AM EST up reply actions  

ya i don't think there's one good source for payroll

even the teams numbers fluctuate

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 1:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Thing is

That it hasn’t stopped the Reds, Brewers, or Cubs from bumping up their payrolls significantly since 2006. In fact, median MLB payrolls have gone up from about $79 million to $90 million (nominal dollars) from 2006 to 2010.

Even with the Great Recession!!! /response to patronization

by thegodfather on Dec 31, 2010 12:45 AM EST up reply actions  

i was shocked at how much the brew crew raised their payroll

i knew Htown & the wee bears did, but i never realized how much the brew crew did. if the Cards went up as much as their’s did we’d have the second highest in the game

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 1:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Well

A big part of that is that new stadium you speak of, the Cardinals debt/value is 50%, the Reds/Cubs are under 12 and 0. The Reds/Brewers revenues have grown significantly as they have dragged themselves out of the gutter (regardless, would you really like to switch places with those franchise’s ownership over the past decade?), and the Cubs are fucking recession proof because their fans are too stupid to understand a shit team—-their revenue has grown 24% from ‘07-’09.

The Cards’ revenues have basically tread water, the payroll has basically tread water. It’s that straightforward from 2006 till now. And suddenly if they have to add 15M for Pujols and keep everything else the same, then their payroll jump would be as big as the Brewers has been.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 31, 2010 1:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Step 3: ?????

Step 4: profit

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 30, 2010 11:41 PM EST reply actions  

She's Out of My League

is actually hilarious so far. I turned it on in the background assuming that it would just be noise and now I find myself watching it. Surprising. Though I still can’t stand Jay Baruchel.

Silly humans, this world is for robots.

by azruavatar on Dec 30, 2010 11:47 PM EST reply actions  

i was surprised at how much i liked it as well, it was pretty good

the ending sucked ass, which isn’t surprising, Hollywood hasn’t been able to put together good endings for year, but it was still pretty good.

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2010 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

they really do, although their ending is weak also

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 12:28 AM EST up reply actions  

what the shit are you guys talking about?

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Dec 31, 2010 12:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Not as bad an ending as I expected.

That was a solid B movie. Also, I did not properly appreciate how attractive Alice Eve is though that has now been remedied.

Silly humans, this world is for robots.

by azruavatar on Dec 31, 2010 12:57 AM EST up reply actions  

it wasn't really bad, i just expected better, i didn't expect it to turn into a typical romcom

and that’s why i didn’t like the ending very much

i also had never heard of alice eve before that movie. she’s stunning

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 1:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah I liked it

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on Dec 31, 2010 2:48 AM EST up reply actions  

If Bagwell looks like Randy Savage in that pic, then so do I.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 31, 2010 1:55 AM EST up reply actions  

I think his criteria eliminates just about everybody from the last 20 yrs

We’re approaching “He probably took steroids because he hit like a HOF’er, therefore I wouldn’t vote him into the HOF” territory.

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 31, 2010 2:16 AM EST up reply actions  

I'd say you're correct.

RR is going to bust a blood vessel from the asshattery. I was just meaning that Bagwell was a good sized lad, not unlike Albert, but he wasn’t any bigger than a lot of guys that I’m friends with. As big as Albert appears, He’s actually pretty normal, he’s like Tiger Woods though. Tiger isn’t a big guy, but he works out which is something that golfers weren’t used to doing. Albert is just a good sized guy. There really isn’t a thing about him that says: He’s a ‘roider! Bagwell didn’t scream that either. I don’t think I’m saying this quite the way I’m thinking it, but I’m tired.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 31, 2010 2:41 AM EST up reply actions  

i've been saying this for a while now, there is a lot of suspicion about the killer B's

and PED’s. i’m sure there will be more & more stories about him & Biggio come out as their time to get in the HOF gets closer. much like it will with any player who played in the 80’s, 90’s & 00’s. Griffey is the only guy who probably will not, but i don’t see how. once he got to the natti his body totally failed him. and that’s exactly what usually happens when you’re on PED’s.

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 3:06 AM EST up reply actions  

His body failed him because he traded too much on his natural ability when he was young.

I remember and article talking about when he was The Kid, the rest of the team was stretching and working out to keep their bodies in condition and Griffey was laying on the couch in the locker room watching tv. When it was game time he’d come out. Years of no conditioning+playing on turf= hell on your body when you’re older.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 31, 2010 3:13 AM EST up reply actions  

i read those stories too & i buy that explanation

he famously never lifted weights, never trained, never did any kind of exercise. he was simply born with the body to play baseball at the highest level. imagine how great he would have been had he taken better care of himself & worked out just a little?

i’m not saying i think he did, i’m just saying you can argue that he did. no one probably will though, but you can make that argument

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 3:17 AM EST up reply actions  

You could be suspicious of anybody

But how many degrees of separation before it just gets stupid? Either you have something of substance or not. With Bagwell, it seems like an especially thin case to me.

Tons of guys get bigger from 22-23 to their 30’s. He didn’t hit any homers in the minors (in 700 or so AB’s), but power usually is later to develop and the guy hit a ton of doubles. It just doesn’t seem that unbelievable to me. And Bagwell is an interesting place to take a stand to me, just because the guy delivered value in every way. He hit for power. He hit for average. He had a career OBP over .400. He was a pretty efficient baserunner, especially for his position. He was a plus fielder at his position. He’s really well rounded, so you almost have to accept that steroids not only help performance, but help every aspect of performance in Bagwell’s case. The Astrodome was a terrible place to hit. The guy was a remarkably consistent performer year to year too.

I wouldn’t say that he didn’t take roids. He very well could of, but there is nothing resembling proof. Where this writer’s argument really breaks from logic is where he asks what Bagwell did to stop the steroid problem. What did Pujols do to stop the problem, Maddux, whoever? How can Pearlman advocate for anybody if that is his standard?

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 31, 2010 3:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Didn't hit many homers

Shouldn’t have said any…he hit a few.

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 31, 2010 3:30 AM EST up reply actions  

it's gotten to the point for me to where we should just let everyone in

Like Joe said, I’d rather put in 50 PED users than leave one out who didn’t but was suspected of it..

Let’s just say this era is tainted… everyone era is tainted in some way… Whether it’s the “White Only League,” WWII, the pitcher’s mound, amphetamines….

The only conceivable answer is to let everyone in. I’m sure that there will be that one guy who actually took steroids, but never did make it in so why not just let all people in, steroids and non-steroids users. Compare their stats to their era like every other freaking Hall-of-Famer…

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 31, 2010 3:34 AM EST up reply actions  

I think we're all having a little trouble tonight

In my case, it may or may not be the Newcastles I’ve been drinking.

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 31, 2010 3:49 AM EST up reply actions  

i don't think they should let everyone in

if a player is on the fringe & there’s still no proof he used, he shouldn’t get in. it’s guys like Bonds & Clemens who should get in no matter what. their numbers, especially Bonds numbers, were HOF worthy before a drop of PED’s entered their body. if a player with no doubt HOF numbers is held out simply because they are suspected of using PED’s, i don’t agree with that. but it’s still not the hall of pretty good. it’s the Hall of Fame. only the best of the best should be in there. whether they used PED’s or not. hitting a round ball with a round bat is still the most difficult thing to do in sports. i don’t care what you put in your body, if you put up HOF numbers for more than 10 seasons, you belong in the HOF

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 4:02 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure that's fair to the fringe who actually never took steroids though

The whole argument against people making the HOF is the morality of cheating when taking steroids so I never did get the whole "he would have gotten in anyway argument since you are keeping him out because he cheated… plus there is no proof when he started taking steroids.

I do agree Bonds should get in and this is the first time I’ve heard the fringe argument… definitely better than leaving everyone out however

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 31, 2010 4:09 AM EST up reply actions  

if the HOF really cared about morals & cheating

guys like Ty Cobb wouldn’t be in there

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I see where you are coming from.

I guess he’s trying to take the Shoeless Joe route. Joe knew about the payoffs but didn’t report it and was guilty anyway. Even though he did nothing to help the one throwing the WS and didn’t take the bribe to begin with we was there and that’s all that counted.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 31, 2010 3:42 AM EST up reply actions  

*he was there, not we

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 31, 2010 3:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Key difference

Is we don’t really know if Bagwell knew more or less than the average guy. We know as much about what he knew as what he did. I know you pretty much agree with me, but that article got me riled up a bit.

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 31, 2010 3:55 AM EST up reply actions  

i agree, there's no proof he & Biggio used PED's, only suspicion they did

and it’s mostly because Caminity, an admitted PED & drug user played with them & admitted he won the MVP in 96 while using them. it’s the whole guilt by association thing. but i’m of the belief that where’s there’s smoke there’s fire. there’s more than one reporter who thinks they used them, they just don’t have the proof & don’t want to drag good men’s name through the mud with no rock solid proof. personally i really don’t think there were too many players back then who didn’t at least one time try PED’s. why wouldn’t they? almost everyone was doing it & the teams & the league did nothing to stop it. hell one can even argue they silently encouraged it.

i think it’s speaks more poorly on the teams & the league that guys like Bagwell & Biggio, who were remarkably consistent players for most of their careers, are suspected of using PED’s. there’s no smoking gun with these guys but because PED’s where in every clubhouse & one of their teammates is one of the most famous admitted users, people naturally assume they were PED users as well. what sucks for them is we probably really will never know who did what & when. no one wants to be the next Canseco. no one wants the shit storm that will come down on them from the media if they come out & admit they used. no one wants to be called a cheater. and most importantly no one wants to go to jail. so unless a former player or even a team or league executive is going to get a huge pay day from spilling their guts, we’ve probably heard the last from the guys in that era.

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 3:54 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree that Caminiti

Is probably the link a lot of writers use. I just don’t think that link is all that strong. They only played together from 91-94.

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 31, 2010 4:08 AM EST up reply actions  

I was wrong on that

Forgot he came back later. Still don’t think it’s all that strong a link though.

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 31, 2010 4:13 AM EST up reply actions  

from what i've been told by my reporter friend is it's more than the Caminity link

there’s just no smoking gun & the Caminity link is the best anyone can come up with

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

i agree, it's a pretty weak connection

hell people can say Albert, Matt & Colby are on them because Big Mac is the hitting coach. that holds as much water as the Caminity link.

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 9:27 PM EST up reply actions  

If he did use, Jeff Bagwell deliberately sought an advantage over other players—an illegal advantage.
If he didn’t use, Jeff Bagwell, stood by and watched his sport morph into WWE nonsense.

(stares at screen)….

Do I have the right to hold his era against him?
Damn right I do.

… uh…. I’m to shocked to be pissed off at this because normally writers who use this type of rationalization get me off the wall… but he is SO off the wall, that I laugh…

Ok so let’s punish everybody from 1989-2009 because they let other people take steroids… Ok John, I’m sure you would elect to everyone’s favorite bitch when you talked out about steroids if you were playing… or not because you have no fucking idea what you would have done, you piece of shit who obviously thinks very highly of himself..

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 31, 2010 3:26 AM EST up reply actions  

He has put up 3 more articles today,

because people were mean to him. I think this is a good characterization of what I’ve read.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 31, 2010 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

That was pretty good.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 31, 2010 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Anyone else notice how swanky McDonalds is now?

Maybe it’s just the one near my house, but they have comfy chairs and classical music and CNN. Food’s still shit though.

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Dec 31, 2010 2:05 AM EST reply actions  

must be a west coast thing

same ol Mickey D’s here.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 31, 2010 2:07 AM EST up reply actions  

ohio's McD's are the same as well, nothing fancy at all

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 2:55 AM EST up reply actions  

They're remodeling all of them out here.

I can only comment that they look nice from the outside.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.

by RiverRat on Dec 31, 2010 10:30 AM EST up reply actions  

vep we talked once about how wOBA

takes Speed into account, how did the Cardinals of 87 finish in the top 8 in the league in runs scored, but in the bottom 8 in the league in wOBA?

~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~

by TomCat009 on Dec 31, 2010 2:46 AM EST reply actions  

...

wOBA is based on the average number of runs scored per event (single, double, stolen base, etc.). A team could have more runs than their wOBA due to fortunate timing of each event.

I wouldn’t use wOBA for evaluating team offenses any way, they don’t capture the interrelations between events (teams that walk more will have a higher value for their home runs than teams that walk less, etc.).

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Dec 31, 2010 2:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Still at least by the FG model the 87 Cards were not a top 20 offense by WAR or by

Batting Runs (-27) yet they were top 8 in runs scored.

~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~

by TomCat009 on Dec 31, 2010 2:57 AM EST up reply actions  

So?

Did you read what I wrote?

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Dec 31, 2010 2:59 AM EST up reply actions  

SO?

if the model determines value(Wins Against Replacement) and the team as a whole succeeds in both winning games(95) scoring runs(798 second in the NL) yet the batters are considered as a whole below average by advanced metrics does that point to a potential flaw in the metric for you?

~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~

by TomCat009 on Dec 31, 2010 3:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Does a singular outlier in a system that, by it's very nature, will have outliers imply that the system is flawed?

Not to me.

Here is how wOBA works. You take the AVERAGE amount of runs that each event produces, you subtract that from the average value of an out. You multiply by 1.15 to get it on an OBP scale, and then divide by plate appearances. This number essentially represents how many runs per plate appearance a hitter would produce if he were to be placed in an average lineup with randomized events. It’s a context neutral measure, trying to eliminate the influence of team members (as opposed to RBI’s, which are also flawed in other ways). The theory of wOBA is basically perfect. Of you can’t always get the weights exactly right, but that induces only a small error.

wOBA, because it is context neutral, is not meant to be applied to teams. Why? Because teams aren’t randomized average performers and thus the weights are different than they are in wOBA. There will naturally be outliers for this reason – a single, on average, is worth about .8 runs per plate appearance. The average single on a team will almost always be different than that due to a combination of random variation and team context.

FanGraphs calculates WAR using wOBA because they are trying to calculate an individual players’ value. Adding it together is not meant to equate to real wins, but rather the sum of individual context neutral wins.

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Dec 31, 2010 3:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Interesting so WAR only matters in a context neutral environment

so if the the Rockies consistently have a better pitcher WAR than the Giants it doesn’t mean that I would rather have their staff for 162 games? If player valuation loses it’s value over a sample size bigger than one why did you so vehemently disagree with my opinion of WAR and DIPS on BTB?

~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~

by TomCat009 on Jan 1, 2011 2:33 AM EST up reply actions  

You missed my point

If a team has more aggregate WAR than another it is a better team statistically (barring margin of error of course). WAR can’t be compared to actual wins because of the exponential processes at work, but the ordinal rankings are correct (once again, barring margin of error).

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Jan 1, 2011 3:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Right but WAR is a calculation relying

 on weights given to each input, my argument is not with the concept rather with the results. Weights are given to park factors, defense, and speed but I would argue incorrectly as their are too many factors entering into those categories that at least currently they are a flawed measure of value.
I realize that discussing this with you is a bit like pissing into the wind as it has few positive likely outcomes, but the more outliers you see, the more you have to question a model.

~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~

by TomCat009 on Jan 1, 2011 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

...
Weights are given to park factors, defense, and speed but I would argue incorrectly as their are too many factors entering into those categories that at least currently they are a flawed measure of value.

What is your basis for that argument?

If you are arguing that the presence of outliers is proof that the system is flawed, that’s a flawed argument. The system necessarily has errors when applied to the team level. It’s not trying to be a team stat.

All wOBA is saying is that the average run value for a certain event is x runs. The average single is worth .77 runs or whatever, it changes by year. I don’t really know how you can dispute that as that’s based on what actually happened in game (unlike UZR which tries to estimate what actually happened). I’ve already explained to you why you can’t apply that to the team level and expect accurate results. That’s not a flaw of wOBA, it’s something that wOBA doesn’t even try to do.

I think you are getting carried away with your skepticism of stats. I’ve never said they were perfect, but the way you argue against them clearly demonstrates to me that you have no idea how they work. Please read more about them. Or if you would like to know more about them, ask rather than argue against them.

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Jan 2, 2011 12:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Look I know I can never be as smart as you Vep

I did somehow manage to slog through four different levels of statistics in college, but I realize that doesn’t mean I can be smart.

Try it this way UZR or TZ is a component of WAR and are unreliable(do I believe Carl Crawford’s Career Home UZR or his Road).

Park Adjustments include the accomplishments of the people who’s performance is being weighted(The better a player produces the less in context his numbers mean).

 A single may statistically be worth .77 runs but a single for Adam Dunn is not as productive as a single for 1985-88 Vince Coleman any attempt to weigh the two equally is an error.

~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~

by TomCat009 on Jan 5, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not calling you dumb

I’m saying you’re uniformed.

And don’t take this personally, but for someone who has taken four different levels of statistics, you sure seem to be very deficient in the area. You don’t seem to understand incredibly basic concepts like random variation, which would be something that you learn in day one of statistics. At any rate…

Try it this way UZR or TZ is a component of WAR and are unreliable(do I believe Carl Crawford’s Career Home UZR or his Road).

First off, I never mentioned WAR. I was explaining to you what wOBA was, and why you specifically cannot compare team wOBA runs to actual team runs and expect accurate results. And that’s not because wOBA is mis-weighing results (although that’s a possibility – it’s impossible to know the true value of each event for each year because we are dealing with a finite sample size); it’s because wOBA is context neutral and team runs are context dependent. They are telling you different things.

I agree with you that UZR has a ton of error and maybe even bias. However, I have already explained to you why your home/road splits example is wrong, and I don’t feel like doing it again.

I don’t understand your objection to park factors. Could you please clarify?

As for the Dunn/Coleman example, Coleman’s single would be worth as much as Dunn’s would be if he were surrounded by an average lineup. It’s the subsequent stolen base or caught stealing that has the value, not the act of getting on first base.

Now I suppose Coleman is more likely to advance an extra base than Dunn, but again, that’s not tied to the single it’s tied to his advancement. wOBA basic doesn’t take into account non-SB baserunning; however, other forms of linear weights (what wOBA is made up of) do take that into account:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/colemvi01.shtml

You’ll notice that Coleman has 75 baserunning runs over his career (including stolen bases and caught stealing). That particular version of linear weights forces the sum of individual context neutral runs to equal team runs, by changing the weights accordingly. That’s a different way of valuing players, but it’s based on the same concept of linear weights. It’s up to you to decide which one is better.

I’m sick of arguing with you about this stuff. Your don’t know what you are talking about (as much as you might think so). I would appreciate it if you would embrace your ignorance and ask questions rather than argue with me.

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Jan 5, 2011 11:39 PM EST up reply actions  

It doesn't have to be an argument or personal vep

what I am pointing to is the difficulty of making the jump between quantitative analysis and qualitative analysis. As I have said before I learn a lot from discussions here and believe it or not don’t have the time to break every discrepancy I see in things like WAR or wOBA/WRC+ based WAR down into excel format.

I do enjoy some of these advanced metrics and think they have great potential, that potential is why I try to shoot holes in them not because I think they are useless, rather I think they can become more useful.

Park Factors change year to year not because a stadium is different place to play, rather it has different players in it.

~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~

by TomCat009 on Jan 8, 2011 2:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Well I think it's clearly an argument

You advanced a position: “wOBA is flawed because the the 87 Cards scored more runs than their wOBA would suggest”, and I responded, telling you why that is not necessarily a flaw of wOBA but rather a function of it’s purpose.

The more I explained to you, the more you advanced different reasons for why wOBA was flawed. It sure seems like an argument to me.

The problem is that all of the arguments you have made thus far are not valid ones, in my view, and they stem from a mis-understanding of what wOBA and how it’s calculated. I don’t expect you to break out an excel spreadsheet, but googling a couple of articles about wOBA doesn’t seem that hard.

I agree that park factors are flawed, especially single year ones. Park factors are a lot like projections, they try to estimate how tough a park is based off of past data. The problem is that data is finite, and thus has a margin of error. Multiyear park factors – the ones used on both FanGraphs and BR – should remove most of the margin of error, but not always (especially in more recent stadiums).

However, some of the difference in year to year park factors can be things like wind or anything that might change. Park factors don’t just measure the impact of park, but also environment.

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Jan 9, 2011 3:47 AM EST up reply actions  

It's tough to not bounce back from that

check out VEB on facebook...just search groups for Viva El Birdos

by Dttl89 on Dec 31, 2010 2:47 AM EST reply actions  

WHAT UP LATE NIGHT VEB

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on Dec 31, 2010 2:48 AM EST reply actions  

Yo

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Dec 31, 2010 2:54 AM EST up reply actions  

is there booze? please someone tell me there is booze

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 2:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Been drinkin' all night

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on Dec 31, 2010 2:56 AM EST up reply actions  

good man

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 3:07 AM EST up reply actions  

what up

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 31, 2010 3:18 AM EST up reply actions  

i now have over 37000 comments here at VEB

H

F

S

®

that’s just insane, like really f’ing insane

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 3:13 AM EST reply actions  

I remember when you were at 10,000

~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~

by TomCat009 on Dec 31, 2010 3:14 AM EST up reply actions  

i was looking for another blog & i was at my profile page

and i noticed it was over 37K & i remembered i think Red pointing out a couple years ago i had like 15K or something. i honestly don’t know whether to be proud or embarrassed that the number is now doubled

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 3:20 AM EST up reply actions  

well wait another 13000 more comments, the you will be really conflicted

~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~

by TomCat009 on Dec 31, 2010 3:22 AM EST up reply actions  

then not the

night all

~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~

by TomCat009 on Dec 31, 2010 3:23 AM EST up reply actions  

i woke up today & wanted to be the first to 50K

i wanted to do something epic, guess that won’t happen now. what’s sad or awesome depending on how you look at it is i’d probably already have 50K if i had been in the game threads last season.

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

we're all just dust in the wind

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 9:28 PM EST up reply actions  

and Yadi2 blew by 50K 9000 comments ago, congrats mate

All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away

by gdm426 on Dec 31, 2010 9:31 PM EST up reply actions  

On winter break, I go to bed at 4 and wake up at 12

I know I have a problem. And the secret is depriving yourself of sleep so that you are so tired that the computer will not tempt you. However, whenever my alarm goes off, I have absolutely no motivation to wake up so I just turn it off and go back to sleep… The alarm is only as good as the thing it is waking me up for… it gets me up when I have to go to school and when I have to work, but if nothing is happening, I just ignore it…

So I’m stuck…. VEB is the real culprit, but I could care less… my body cares though

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 31, 2010 4:14 AM EST reply actions  

Except I fucking was able to deprive myself of sleep last night

Went to bed at 5, woke up at 10. And I spent basically most of the day biking around the city. And I’m not tired at all right now.

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Dec 31, 2010 4:44 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't get it

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Dec 31, 2010 5:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Analytic mind

Could figure your odds in seconds, and can function with little or no sleep. Can stay up late enough to take advantage of the drunkards that roll in late, and not miss a beat the next morning.

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 31, 2010 5:11 AM EST up reply actions  

I had some really good luck with that a while ago

That is, being able to take advantage of the fact that I was not as tired and can apparently think better when I’m drunk than the other players.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 31, 2010 8:19 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah i'm not tired right no either

it’s freaking me out

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 31, 2010 5:11 AM EST up reply actions  

*now

sunova…

DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!

by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 31, 2010 5:12 AM EST up reply actions  

I like to listen to music

It’s a compromise between VEB/TV and just lying there.

Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat

by vivaelpujols on Dec 31, 2010 5:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Skip will be alright. He didn’t look good leading off, but that’s what Theriot’s for

http://elmaquino5.wordpress.com/

by ElMaquino on Jan 3, 2011 12:33 PM EST reply actions  

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