Bounceback Seasons
[danup edit: I'm out of town this morning and instead of the usual low-impact fanshot I thought I'd front-page this fanpost as the day's thread. Enjoy.]
There is a great deal of variability in an athlete’s hitting performance year to year. There can be a number of reasons for this. A players true skill level could change due to aging, injury, or poor coaching. We have constantly improving batted ball data that give us some indication of when a drop in poor performance is related to bad luck. A sharp change is likely usually related to a combination of multiple factors, to varying degrees. This post is an attempt to look at the long term trends of hitters in the years following a season of poor performance. For this exercise we are using OPS+ changes from year to year, since that metric is so widely available in B-Ref data pulls that were needed to compile this. We will also be looking at the relationship that age of the hitter (at the time of OPS+ drop) has on future season’s performance. Finally, we will be looking at the relationship between the OPS+ the season of the drop and the rate of improvement in future seasons. In other words, does a person that dropped from 100 OPS+ to 75 have a better chance of improvement than one that dropped from 150 OPS+ to 125?
Before we get into the results of the study, I want to walk through the methodology used. I have pulled data from 1986 - 2010 (25 seasons), filtering out all individual’s seasons that had more than 400 plate appearances. I then looked for individuals that had both back to back seasons and had a OPS+ drop of 20 or more from one season to the next. I then pulled these individuals stats from the following year, and the following 3 years and compared their OPS+ for both those time periods, and compared them to the season of the drop. To look at the trends by age and by hitting level, I then created 5 subsets for each category, trying to keep the subsets at a similar sample size. So now we’ll dig into the findings…
In the last 25 seasons, there have been 4,986 individual seasons with 400 PA’s or greater. Clearly, in many of these cases the individual did not have 400 PA’s back to back. This would reduce the size of the population from 4,986, but unfortunately I did not have the foresight to measure the exact number that had back to back seasons (and I am not going back to do it now!). Regardless of that, we have 660 records of a hitter having back to back seasons of 400 PA’s accompanied with a drop in OPS+ of 20 or more, from 1986-2009 (drops in 2010 are excluded from the exercise since there is not yet a 2011 to compare it to).
I just want to make note of that number for a second, because the frequency of this was a little surprising to me. If we assumed that all 4,986 seasons were by athletes that followed with another 400 PA season, that would mean that we can expect a sudden drop in performance over 13% of the time. Of course we know that is not the case, so we know the frequency that this happens is even greater. Possibly more like 20%, though I am certainly ball parking that. In any case, it happens to about 25 hitters a season.
So what happens with those 660 records in the one year following?
21 of the 660 did not play in the season following their drop
8 people had the exact same OPS+ in the year following
416 of the remaining 639 had an improved OPS+ in the year following
215 of the remaining 639 had a worse OPS+ in the year following
The median improvement in the following year is 8
The average improvement in the following year is 7.3
The standard deviation for an individual is 25.8
The standard error of the sample is 1.03 (I think I am applying this the correct way, but not 100% certain)
If we were to assume that hitters that drop 20 OPS+ or more in a season were as likely to get worse as better the following year, then we could do liken this to a series of 631 coin flips. If you tried to flip a coin 631 times, up until the point you get 416 to come up either heads or tails, you’re likely to have your plans set for the rest of your life. We can safely assume luck plays a factor in these drops, on the whole. Certainly not the only factor present, but a very significant one nonetheless.
Here’s the distribution of the results, going from biggest gain to biggest drop…
47 people improved their OPS+ by 40 or more the following season
62 improved between 30-39
88 improved between 20-29
103 improved between 10-19
124 were between the same and an improvement of 9
77 dropped between 1 and 9
65 dropped between 10-19
36 dropped between 20-29
16 dropped between 30-39
21 dropped 40 or more
Before we get into the 3 year result, I just want to mention what items I filtered out of this group. People that had no stats were obviously removed again. I’ve taken out those that only had stats the year following also. There are a few instances where people did not play in the year following but did in years 2 and/or 3. Those people are included even though it is not 3 full years of data. People that played 2 years after and retire in the 3rd are counted as well.
Here are the 3 year results…
14 of the 660 are removed from the sample because they had no stats in the 3 years following. 80 people only had 1 year of performance and were removed as well. 29 of those are just because their drop occured in 2009.
Leaves us with 566 records in the sample
12 had the same OPS+ result
363 had an improved OPS+ the following 3 years
191 had a worse OPS+ the following 3 years
Median improvement the following 3 years is 7
Average improvement is 7.6
Standard Deviation for an individual is 21.7
The standard error of the sample is .91
And the 3 year results categorized by margin of change, from greatest improvement to greatest drop….
32 improved by 40 or more
34 improved between 30-39
85 improved between 20-29
105 improved between 10-19
119 were between the same and an improvement of 9
108 dropped between 1-9
47 dropped between 10-19
19 dropped between 20-29
9 dropped between 30-39
8 dropped by 40 or more
We see that median and average stay roughly the same with the 3 year sample. We also see that number of outliers on the edges reduce pretty dramatically by taking the longer view here. Now part of that might be explained by the likelihood that anybody that is continuously playing at a lower level may not last more than 1 year after the drop and may only show on the 1 year sample. The effect would be marginal though. Of the 51 records that had data for 1 year only, 20 of them had an increased result in that one year. There are enough Dwight Evans, Gary Sheffield, and Ray Durham’s in there to neutralize this effect somewhat, though it still does exist.
Overall, there is a demonstrated bias towards improved performance in the season(s) following a dramatic drop. Next, I am going to take a look to see how the data separates based on age of the hitter at the time of the drop as well as based on the OPS+ level at the time of drop. I broke each of these categories into 5 subsets. I tried to keep these fairly even in the number of entries in each subset. It was easy to do based on OPS+. Less so with age, due to the amount of clustering between the ages of 27-33. As a result the age group of 33-43 will have more records in it than the others. Other than that it is pretty balanced.
Just below are the tables of the results based on age. The tables for the 1 year are at the top, and the 3 years following are below. Each table shows the median result and the average for that group in the first couple columns. The attrition column may need some explanation. For the 1 year tables, the column simply is counting the people that did not have data the following year. For the 3 year sample, those that had nothing or only the following year of data are included - except the 2009 record. The 2009 records are taken out of the table altogether, which explains why the number of records on the 3 year table are fewer than on the 1 year ones.
The top table give the raw numbers in each category of OPS+ variance from the prior season. The table below that just gives the percentage of the subset sample in each category. The last line in each table is the overall average for the entire group, and gives a baseline to compare the subsets to.
As we can see, each subset shows an improvement following the drop for both the 1 and 3 years following, even the most senior athletes. However, there is clear and significant difference in the margin of improvement from those 30 and under, and those older than 30. Makes sense that the effects of aging would negate much of the bad luck factor that caused part or all of the drop. It seems pretty clear that a GM that wants to take a chance on a bounce back candidate increases their odds of success significantly if they take their chance with a guy on the right side of 30. The odds of a 33-43 year old athlete’s performance dropping or them being forced out the league are double of that of the group in the 20-26 subset. That’s a significant difference, yet it is often the veteran types that give people a false illusion of security.
The next set of tables is much like the last set, with the only difference that it is tracking results based off the hitters OPS+ the year of the drop.
We actually see a more pronounced disparity here than we did with age, which I have to admit surprises me. All the one year results show improvement, but those with an OPS+ of 77 and below show an average improvement of 14.7, compared to 1.9 for those whose had an OPS+ of 116 or higher the year of their drop. That gap widens significantly in the 3 year sample. Again, if we combine the percentage that attrition out of the league and those that have a decline in performance, over 3 years, we find that more than double in the highest bracket show a decline relative to those in the lowest. That’s a significant difference, yet it is often the "proven" types that give people a false illusion of security. Of course this does not suggest that, all things being equal, you should invest in poor hitter but rarely are all things equal. If you want to take a low cost flier on a bounce back season, this might suggest you might get your best ROI by taking a chance on those that have fallen the farthest.
It would appear that there is opportunity in investing in bounce back candidates. An average improvement of over 7 points is significant. There appears to be additional factors that can expand that edge a bit further. Finally, there is ever-improving batted ball data that would allow anyone to look at the individual case before them, and make a reasonable projection as to whether the individual is more or less likely to exceed the average.
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I'm going to go ahead and rec this for effort even though I haven't read it yet.
I promise I will read it, because it looks really cool. Just don’t have time right now.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Good/Bad News
Schumaker had a 19 point drop, but for simplicity’s sake, let’s just say that basically falls under the required limit of this study
Schumaker – 29-30 (Avg. 13.4 jump); 78-88 OPS (9.3+ jump) – Assuming he falls in between, he’d have an OPS+ of 94 – bWAR gave him a 2.5 oWAR with a 102 OPS+ and a 0.6 oWAR with an 83 OPS+ – so I assume that’s something like 1.55 oWAR – This is a median of course so he could do better or worse (he also fits the unlucky bill)
Adding more fuel to the fire for the Boog fans (I assume this was your motive to write this post at least partly), he had a 57 OPS+ and falls in the 29-30 and under 77 OPS+ so the data supports a major uptick in offensive performance
As well, Lopez went from 128 OPS+ to 79 OPS+ as a 30 year-old so the data supports a major improvement. Even if you accept his 128 OPS+ was lucky (and it was), he had a 101 OPS+ the year before so anyway you look at it, he dropped 20 points of what you think he’d have
Molina did not qualify dropping only 16 points but he did have an OPS+ of 84 so you’d expect his age and talent to improve upon that (of course, fourstick made the good point to know that his BABIP is at career level)
also incredible amount of work put in – rec’d
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
Berkman actually started it for me
But honestly the Ryan trade did accelerate the compilation, for sure. My gut instinct said the Berkman move was a good one, and the Ryan move a not-so-good one, but I wanted to see what the history has been and try to put my opinions aside as best as possible. To be fair (and I’ll admit this), I thought the Khalil Greene deal was a good risk to take and that obviously turned out horribly, both in terms of what we got and what we gave. Khalil is one that made the cut in this study, and didn’t turn out. It happens enough to be damn scary.
There is obviously a huge amount of variability here. Personally, I think that is part of what presents the opportunity to the GM’s that have the comfort in taking the risk. If you take a guy that drops from 100 to 70, and then he flames out, you’re going to have some questions to answer. It’s a risk that the small market teams will probably be more willing to take more often than others. The mid market teams that go with a stars and scrubs approach might be more judicious about it, but play the angle occasionally. And then a lot of the big market teams won’t even bother. But it seems that it can be yet another equalizer that can level the playing field, in addition to developing a farm.
by Merry CRasmus on Dec 27, 2010 2:36 AM EST up reply actions
I imagine that GMs have more advanced models,
like the projection systems that give more weight to the most recent season but also take into effect prior seasons. For instance, given Berkman’s sustained offensive excellence up until 2010, he is probably less of a gamble than someone like, say, Skip, who had a handful of average offensive seasons before falling off of a cliff. Of course, that doesn’t really take into account injury. I wonder how much of the falloff can be attributed to an injury.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I mean...

"The Mollusk" makes me want to rail LSD crystals off my friends' sternum. Rage."
by ICEYhawtSTUNNAZ on Dec 27, 2010 11:12 AM EST reply actions
There's a button
in the divider between the fanpost text and the comment thread.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
This is an interesting study and kudos for doing the work
But y’all need to get some histograms up in this piece. So much better than table after table of numbers.
I want to start a rally for the sake of Late Night VEB's slow death
to get mysterui permanently stuck in his apartment in California (or Seattle) and away from his fiancee (sorry bud) and for Aranathor to get a year’s supply of alcohol (you’re welcome).
Who’s with me?
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
i hope your rally goes the way of the boog rally
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
so you hope that no one rallys
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2010 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
I can't say that I'd miss it all that much heh
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
Give Aranathor a bottle and he's drunk for a day
Give him a still and he’s set for life.
The Mang does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man.
Cure me of this god-awful illness
and i’ll be drunk for the rest of eternity.
Unfortunatly booze and a hacking-chest-aching-cough do not go well together.
Did I catch this shit from you?
I’d love to have a beer right now, but it probably wouldn’t mix well with Sudafed, Nyquil, Advil, etc.
Boog woulda.
by The Continental on Dec 28, 2010 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
my internal metrics say that these actually mix very well
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
oh well in that case then..
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....
Do shots.
They kill the viruses.
/notadoctor
Brendan Ryan is no longer a St. Louis Cardinal.
Fortunately, Aaron Miles isn't either.
Whenever I feel a cold coming on,
I take three stiff shots of Jamesons.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
If Aranthor did that then somebody would get jealous.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 28, 2010 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
Say
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 28, 2010 2:25 AM EST reply actions
shit, i guess i should put the link here now
Goold’s latest. read it at your own risk
i don’t know what pisses me off more. MO talking out of both sides of his mouth, TLR’s stupidity, Goold hinting Boog was a bad SS last year, or Skippy being praised for sucking ass yet trying his best. for fucks sake this team won’t win a fucking softball championship until they get rid of that backwardsass thinking.
and oh by the by, Boog was thrown under the bus, then they backed the bus up, parked on him for a while, then did some donuts on him, then ran him back over for not hitting last year. yet they get out the lotion & trip over themselves to pleasure Skippy for doing the exact same thing ON TOP OF being a horrible second baseman. i’m sick of this shit. really fucking sick of it.
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
that's definitely the worst article I've ever read, by Goold.
Completely lacking in logic, internally inconsistent, and it’s very clear that the poor guy doesn’t have a clue what “mitigating” means.
Not sure I've seen dumber baseball words: "Brendan Ryan became expendable after (Cardinals) acquired infielder Ryan Theriot." -Joe Posnanski
it really is the worst, it's like gordo & burwell bad
i don’t understand what point he was trying to make at all
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
To my mind
he’s using the word ‘mitigating’ correctly, although the word that usually accompanies it is ‘circumstance’, not ‘reason’. Def: v.tr. To moderate (a quality or condition) in force or intensity; alleviate. v.intr. to become milder. He seems to be saying that there is a reason that makes the stat (79 out of 99 errors committed by the 2b, 3b and ss positions) less worrisome, i.e., it makes the stat milder, or alleviates the worry: we have a bunch of gb-inducing pitchers…..so my question is, why the FUCK did those idiots trade B Ryan?
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 28, 2010 3:24 AM EST up reply actions
exactly
to mitigate is to take an action that reduces the consequence of a risk or issue. That’s not what the theriot addition does- in fact, it’s the opposite- and the fact that the staff gets a lot of ground balls is also not “mitigating” anything.
Anyway, they’ve edited the article now, and the offending word has been changed to “context”, which is more correct.
Not sure I've seen dumber baseball words: "Brendan Ryan became expendable after (Cardinals) acquired infielder Ryan Theriot." -Joe Posnanski
the headline was enough to piss you off
and how strongly they feel about the D being ‘good’ is unreal. if they pulled their heads out of their asses, they’d realize what we do: our D is the worst in the league.
Fire John Mozeliak & Tony LaRussa! (Good luck in Seattle, Boog!)
This. . .
“our D is the worst in the league”
is demonstrably wrong.
In 2009, the Birds on the Bat were 6 in the NL in Defensive Efficiency (i.e. the percentage of balls in play turned into outs). The downgrade from Ryan to Theriot (who has been an average to slghtly above-average defensive SS, according to the metrics for his entire career except for a small sample size there last season), and from Ludwick, et al to Berkman will not drag the Cards all the way down to last in the NL.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 29, 2010 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
out of curiosity
where are you finding DER tabulated? I can’t find it at B-R or fangraphs. I’m curious as to how sensitive it is.
Ryan→Theriot and Jay/Ludwick→Berkman could easily add 30+ “hits”, maybe as many as 50.
Not sure I've seen dumber baseball words: "Brendan Ryan became expendable after (Cardinals) acquired infielder Ryan Theriot." -Joe Posnanski
BRef has it. . .
on the Year/League pages (scroll down), and calls it DEff for Defensive Efficiency. I think DER is a BPro term, if memory serves, but it’s the same thing, and IMO the best stat for rating team defense. It’s not perfect, of course, for several reasons.
Anyway, here’s the 2010 chart:
Tm DefEff 6 Inn Ch PO A E DP Fld% Rtot Rtot/yr Rdrs Rdrs/yr
SFG .706 13149.0 5941 4383 1485 73 110 .988 36 3 54 1
SDP .701 13107.0 6067 4369 1626 72 142 .988 18 2 53 5
CIN .699 13077.0 6039 4359 1608 72 140 .988 16 1 33 3
PHI .697 13107.0 6139 4369 1687 83 156 .986 22 2 18 2
LAD .695 12975.0 6012 4325 1589 98 122 .984 3 0 -21 -2
STL .692 13083.0 6332 4361 1872 99 170 .984 18 2 61 6
NYM .690 13077.0 6111 4359 1665 87 160 .986 32 3 32 3
ARI .687 12888.0 5970 4296 1572 102 152 .983 27 3 22 2
ATL .687 12954.0 6214 4318 1770 126 165 .980 18 2 35 3
LgAvg .687 12987 6059 4329 1629 101 144 .983 -1 0
WSN .682 12915.0 6089 4305 1657 127 146 .979 -18 -2 10 1
COL .681 12978.0 6134 4326 1707 101 182 .984 12 1 30 3
CHC .679 12930.0 5986 4310 1550 126 135 .979 -30 -3 -22 -0
FLA .678 12945.0 5940 4315 1502 123 130 .979 -19 -2 -23 -2
HOU .678 12954.0 6018 4318 1597 103 135 .983 -36 -3 -20 -0
MIL .673 12951.0 5934 4317 1516 101 141 .983 -25 -2 -38 -4
PIT .669 12705.0 6016 4235 1654 127 119 .979 -105 -10 -81 -1
.687 207795.0 96942 69265 26057 1620 2305 .983 -31 -0
FWIW, and for the sake of argument, if you added 70 hits to the Cards’ total (i.e. by subtracting 70 from putouts, you would come up with a DEff of .678, bad to be sure, but still better than worst in the league.
Oh, and for those who like advanced defensive metrics, the Rdrs stat over on the left (defined as defensive runs saved over an average defense, and compiled using BIS’ play-by-play data) had the Cardinals as the best defensive team in the NL last season, despite Skippy. Food for thought.
All of the hyperbole over the Cardinals defense is getting comical.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 29, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
and the best team in that won the WS
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 29, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
and the second best didn't even make the playoffs?
Your team is incompetently run by baseball equivalent of the captain from the Caine Mutiny -DiscoJer
because they play in the same division as the first team?
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
did Selig get rid of the wildcard?
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 29, 2010 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
looking like it's going to be the other way around
Your team is incompetently run by baseball equivalent of the captain from the Caine Mutiny -DiscoJer
no but if you play better competition, doesn't that mean your going to lose more games?
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
doesn't San Diego not making the playoffs show that good defense and no offense isn't a recipe for making the playoffs?
(I feel like a 13 year-old girl who constantly raises the intonation of her voice at the end of her sentences thus making every statment sound like a question)
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 29, 2010 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
i thought seattle did that?
(there is a reason I have put a question mark at the end of statements in this sub-thread)
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Yeah we're obviously not a terrible defensive team
Molina is the best defensive catcher in the game. Rasmus, Pujols and Holliday above average defenders. Freese and Theriot are average or a bit below. Schumaker and Berkman are terrible yes, but two defenders does not a team make.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 29, 2010 6:02 PM EST up reply actions
it doesn't make sense to be sure
He starts off praising Schumaker for doing what anybody would do if they wanted PT, then talks about how the defense may get worse, but wait – they had a lot of errors last year – but wait that was because they had a lot of chances – but wait, no they will be just as good if not better despite not improving defensively anywhere – but wait they should improve upon defense actually because Skip is trying his best
Confusing and all over the place… I didn’t feel an inch of anger however, especially about Boog. I wonder if this has anything to do with my not caring about his departure (him leaving not the actual trade).
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 28, 2010 3:12 AM EST up reply actions
you're not mad about Boog? oh so you hate America
you know who else hated America? Hitler
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
He probably hates baseball, too.
And we all know who hates baseball. Adam Dunn.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 28, 2010 3:29 AM EST up reply actions
little known fact, Adam Dunn is Hitler's long lost great nephew
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
well
America has gone down the drain in several facets. Popular music is incredibly terrible. Some Top 10 songs on Billboard
- - Firework by Katy Perry, #5 – We R who we R (WHAT THE FUCK? GODDAMNIT!! hiawhdgyisdvgdffs) I could mention the others that aren’t quite as bad, but none of the fucking top 10 even deserve to be there… Bruno Mars and Rihanna have two songs? WHAT THE FUCK? I hate American music certainly.
I hate TV now. Disney has gone to crap with their shows. They use to show watchable kid/teenage shows and movies. Now every movie they make sucks. It’s complete trash. My childhood going right down the drain. Then there’s the popular TV shows. Reality TV is not even fucking reality TV. Tell me what’s real about Jersey Shore? I have the privilege to say I’ve seen one episode and that’s all for it. And it’s what the most popular in America? Then there’s the new show “Girls Who LIke boys who like boys” – WHAT THE FUCK? Yes I hate American television now.
America has glorified making money and spending it. Sports stars and actors probably do the least bit of work of all society but they make the most money and also are the reason why people go broke (whether as an aspiring actor/sports star who fails miserably or as a fan). America’s political system acts like they are the best and tries to fix every body else’s problems when they should just look in the mirror.
The best writers are normally full of shit and full of cliches. I mean best in the ones who get the most attention. They also don’t know shit about stats and are a large reason why the HOF is going to soon be ruined (if it hasn’t already) by making it easier to get in and keeping out the steroid users (while at the same time keeping in cheaters of years past)
There is also racism, heavy crime, health care, poverty, gangs, cop power, and drug glorification. Terribly enough, America has it better than most countries. And they have a shitload of problems. Something is wrong with the world.
Hitler I am not however.
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 28, 2010 3:52 AM EST up reply actions
weren't expecting that?
I actually love America, but it has some serious problems.
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 28, 2010 4:15 AM EST up reply actions
Throughout human history
Popular culture has been crap. Always has been, always will be.
I think if you extrapolate W.E.B. DuBois theory of the Talented Tenth to the entire country, and world, things start to make sense. Ten percent of the people will bear the burden of guiding the other 90 percent.
Perhaps what we’re seeing is sheer exhaustion on the part of the Tenth, so the 90 percent get their way in entertainment, media, politics and day-to-day banal interaction.
Repeal The LaRussa Tax.
by Michael_68_1999 on Dec 28, 2010 9:50 AM EST up reply actions
Popular culture hasn't always been crap
It’s been a step down from the real artists for sure, but it’s always tried to emulate true art and better itself. There was a time when the Beatles were the most popular band in the world – they certainly weren’t as good as other bands, but were still a very good band and had some talent and originality.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2010 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
My mom just died of Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanocon
So thanks for that.
Hey my 5 year old brother is in the other room crying? Do you want to spit on my mom’s grave in front of him?
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
how distasteful to insult another's mother...
Your team is incompetently run by baseball equivalent of the captain from the Caine Mutiny -DiscoJer
My brother and I say "Your mom!" to each other all the time.
This has led to me, at least once, saying that to Josh. Josh’s mom is dead. Oops.
I do that with my brother also
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2010 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
hahaha
hope he takes that lightly
Your team is incompetently run by baseball equivalent of the captain from the Caine Mutiny -DiscoJer
oh wow at first your brother came off as mean
He thinks it’s funny to say your mom and see Josh squirm? WOW! Glad you cleared that up.
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 28, 2010 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
you bear his offspring
you can say whatever the hell you want to him now
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....
American popular culture is geared towards 15 year old boys....
…and 13 year old girls. This is why we suck.
:=8/
G-O-H-O-H-O-9-O!
G-O-H-O-H-O-9-O!
+1
everything was so good in the 90s, and now it’s just a bunch of garbage.
Fire John Mozeliak & Tony LaRussa! (Good luck in Seattle, Boog!)
You know, it's funny
I was a teenager in the 1980s, and I’m laughing at all the nostalgia for that decade. I think people forget just how much crap there was out then.
The 1990s were even worse.
But the emergence of “Reality” TV in 2000 pretty much did it. But before we blame the producers of this empty-headed pap, we have to remember that there surely must be a great demand for it. Which, of course, there is.
Fortunately, we’re not in the 1980s, when we only had the three networks. Today, we have plenty of other choices in entertainment so if one wants to ignore Reality TV completely, one has the ability to do so.
Repeal The LaRussa Tax.
by Michael_68_1999 on Dec 28, 2010 9:53 AM EST up reply actions
Ya I totally hated reality tv from day 1.
I used to breath MTV in my teens but the real world killed it.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
You mean back when MTV played...music?
Kids today don’t even know what a music video is!
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
There they are, standing on your lawn, not knowing about music videos.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Dec 28, 2010 10:24 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Little Jersey shore punks, the lot of 'em!
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
even MTV2 doesn't play music anymore
Pretty soon you can get a package deal for MTV and ESPN Ocho.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
Didn't Mtv even take "music" out of their logo?
I thought I read a little blurb about them finding that it tracked better without it.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 28, 2010 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
Wasn't COPS the beginning of reality TV?
That show is awesome. I think someone should do a serious study on the correlation of shirtlessness with criminal activity.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Really the movie Castaway was the catalyst for the terrible TV of the oughts
which is ironic (like all these fucking spoons!) since it was actually a pretty damn decent movie (besides the ludicrous ending… apparently Helen Hunt’s second husband can sleep through anything), but it essentially begat Survivor which begat everything else.
Also to blame: Regis Philbin.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Monochromatic fashion: The end of civilization.
Brendan Ryan is no longer a St. Louis Cardinal.
Fortunately, Aaron Miles isn't either.
But Civilization V just came out!
;=8)
G-O-H-O-H-O-9-O!
G-O-H-O-H-O-9-O!
by The MooCow on Dec 29, 2010 10:08 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Actually Survivor debuted before Cast Away came out
Same year, but Survivor debuted in summer 2000, while Cast Away came out in December 2000.
Survivor's season 1 finale was still in August 2000
If anything, Cast Away fed off of Survivor’s success, not the other way around.
Well, I looked up Survivor
and the concept actually came from stuff that was created in the 90s, several years before Castaway came out. I think Survivor and Who Wants to be a Millionaire were more strongly linked, being the big “reality” hits right around the same time.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Castaway might have convinced them to bring it to the U.S. or something, I dunno.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Actually Edtv was before both of them.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 28, 2010 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
Ahem!
Wikipedia to the rescue!
“The format for Survivor was created in 1992 by British television producer Charlie Parsons.”
“The concept is credited to Charlie Parsons who co-owns Castaway Television Productions with Waheed Alli and Bob Geldof, and appeared first on the Swedish public service network SVT in 1997 as Expedition Robinson.”
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Thank you.
Now I know whom to take a ball bat to for coming up with that shit.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 28, 2010 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
Heh heh
I guess various versions had been kicking around Europe for years. Europe has come up with all sorts of dumb ideas before, we really shouldn’t be surprised.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Yes, well, this is one time I wish that we'd told Europe
to fuck off!
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 28, 2010 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
And since Britain kinda but doesn't really consider itself "Europe"
Aranathor and Felonious Monk are excused as far as I’m concerned.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
The god damn Brits.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Dec 28, 2010 5:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And "The Truman Show" was before
EDTV.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 28, 2010 8:14 PM EST up reply actions
It's actually all Robinson Crusoe's fault, in my book.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
The 80s were actually pretty good
Recovery from recession, lower taxes, Huey Lewis, MTV, and oh – the cards were pretty awesome. Go crazy, folks, go crazy.
SD
Yeah, popular culture, it turns out, is not the only measure of a decade.
I hear the same thing from my dad about the 80’s and the 50’s. The 50’s, according to my education, were a wasteland of sexual repression, hysterical fear of communism, racism, etc. My dad, who grew up in the 50’s, thought they were awesome. It all kind of depends on perspective.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Yes, but there was also
Night Ranger, the worst decade of television ever (with the exception of the A-team and Magnum, P.I.), and the peak years of hair bands.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
There were a couple of other shows.
The early eighties had Hill Street Blues, while it was still good. Simon and Simon wasn’t bad. Cheers, MacGuyver, Airwolf wasn’t too bad, either. Jan Michael Vincent was good until that prop gun killed him.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 28, 2010 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
don't forget the Dukes of Hazard, Knight Rider & Fall Guy
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
the 80s were pretty shitty other than the Cards
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
and Night Court
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
And Cheers, but ya
Night Court was awesome.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
"Night Court" still has one of the best theme songs of alltime
right there with “Welcome Back Kotter”
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Barney Miller, no contest.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Abe Vigoda, still living.
Brendan Ryan is no longer a St. Louis Cardinal.
Fortunately, Aaron Miles isn't either.
Steve Landesberg, ded.

Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
See Sturgeon's Revelation, aka Sturgeon's Law
I think people forget just how much crap there was out then.
The Mang does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man.
You know we're in trouble
when we take our cues from fish.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 28, 2010 10:50 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Well, we all admire Carp ...
The Mang does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man.
by alberich on Dec 28, 2010 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This applies to baseball as well
Old fogies who say that baseball players were better back in the day are full of it. In my opinion anyway. Not sure if it is spelled “fogies” or “fogeys”.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
ANY athlete
Go watch baseball from the 80s, the pitchers’ stuff sucks. Flat fastballs, mediocre breaking stuff etc etc. It’s amazing. Or basketball, my god has that changed. The athleticism and body control is just on another level now, their definition of a “fadeaway” is going “straight up” now. Even someone like Josh Smith now would have been right there with Bird/Magic IMO. 6’9 250 guys who played above the rim did not exist then (let alone what LeBron would have done).
It’s like saying sprinters from the 70s or 80s could run with Usain Bolt….athletes now are SO much better. No one lifted weights! Bigger faster stronger.
Not afraid to nitpick
I like mooost of what was in the 80's....
…for mooosic and moovies, anyway. Just not the popular stuff.
G-O-H-O-H-O-9-O!
G-O-H-O-H-O-9-O!
And here's an example of the 1990s
Among the top 10 songs of 1992:
Jump, Kris Kross
Baby-Baby-Baby, TLC
Save the Best for Last, Vanessa Williams
My Lovin, En Vogue
Just Another Day, Jon Secada
It wasn’t all Pearl Jam, Nirvana and Sir-Mix-A-Lot.
Repeal The LaRussa Tax.
by Michael_68_1999 on Dec 28, 2010 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
Foul
“My Lovin’” is a cool song. That jazzy little “never gonna get it never gonna get it” breakdown in the middle is freaking great.
by Andyfantastic on Dec 28, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
To each their own
I’m certain 20 years from now, somebody on some internet forum looking back fondly on the Oughts will bring up the Chitlins and the Boom Boom Dance.
Repeal The LaRussa Tax.
by Michael_68_1999 on Dec 28, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
Also, En Vogue was hot.
Brendan Ryan is no longer a St. Louis Cardinal.
Fortunately, Aaron Miles isn't either.
Shut up british
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2010 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
Also, is it just me or has rap turned metrosexual?
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2010 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
i think it's just you
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 28, 2010 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
They say swag in every song
And they have those voice modulator things.
It’s pretty gay.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
you are looking at the wrong rap
I only listen to Kanye, Eminem, T.I., and Cudi mostly. Soulja Boy, Roscoe Dash (I seriously want to kill this dude for ruining music), and others though I guess are metrosexual.
We need a new genre for those guys though because it’s essentially crap.
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 28, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
I'm with you on this.
It’s almost stereotypically metrosexual.
Very fashioned-focused, very image-centric, and lots of matching colors from well-known designers..
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
rap & hip hop are a disgrace, Easy E, Biggie & 2Pac are rolling over in their graves
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
by gdm426 on Dec 28, 2010 7:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
where is he then?
because he’s sure not showing up at Burger Kings in Fargo like Elvis does
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
the article isn't really about boog
and i’d be interested to see what kind of internal fielding metrics the FO has and how they differ from the widely available ones.
Your team is incompetently run by baseball equivalent of the captain from the Caine Mutiny -DiscoJer
now that's funny, TLR doesn't even know what fielding metrics are
and i guarantee you Albert & the other party poopers who got rid of Boog don’t either
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
i meant the ones the FO uses
that Mo was talking about that rated T.H. Eriot favorably
Your team is incompetently run by baseball equivalent of the captain from the Caine Mutiny -DiscoJer
they had to have made those up themselves
there’s a damn good reason why the flubs & the Dodger’s didn’t want him anywhere near SS the last few seasons
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
there's a reason that Cardinals didn't want Ryan playing short stop this year.
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
which had nothing to do with his ability to play shortstop
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
just his ability to hit a baseball
Being that theriot is an above average short stop defensively, I would say the Dodgers and the Flubs moved him for something besides his ability to play shortstop as well.
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
they did
his potential to play second base better than above average. Which would be much, much better than The Scapegoat. Which is the reason people are upset that he is going to be our shortstop.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
because castro and furcal play for those teams?
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
by prophetjohn on Dec 28, 2010 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
what about when Furcal was hurt?
and Jamey Carrol played SS over Theriot?
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
he appears to be a plus defender
who had a better offensive season than theriot. i probably would have put him at SS over theriot, also
the implication was that theriot is a bad shortstop. theriot is not a bad shortstop
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
by prophetjohn on Dec 28, 2010 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
He had played something like 21 games in the last 4 seasons at SS
and zero in the previous two seasons. Theriot had been a career SS before last season. And if Jamey Carrol is viewed as a better offensive option than Theriot, and we are counting on Theriot to be an offensive upgrade, then this move sucked even more than I thought.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
the point is the last sentence
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
by prophetjohn on Dec 28, 2010 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
This move sucked even more than I thought?
the implication that Theriot is not a good shortstop is supported by the Dodgers choosing to play Carrol over him. Carrol hadn’t played SS in 2 seasons.
I admit this has been discussed more than adequately and I’m arguing just for the sake of arguing here.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
i prefer my argument
which uses empirical data over something like “MLB managers always make good decisions, therefore ryan theriot is a bad shortstop”
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
by prophetjohn on Dec 28, 2010 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
most recent empirical data
says that he is a below average defender at SS
Also, please don’t let TLR see his b-r page. I can’t wait for the late July game where Theriot starts in RF.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
oh, those 200 innings that he played SS in 2010?
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
by prophetjohn on Dec 28, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
oh. nice sample size
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
by prophetjohn on Dec 28, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
that's UZR/150, of course
maybe you’re using a different metric
but DRS has him at +7 for his career
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
B-R total zone
has him at -5 for his career, which is 5 seasons of data at SS, for an average of -1, which is below average.
But yes they have him for +7 DRS.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
He's also going to be an old 31
SS defense doesn’t usually get better with age…
Not sure I've seen dumber baseball words: "Brendan Ryan became expendable after (Cardinals) acquired infielder Ryan Theriot." -Joe Posnanski
Well not with that attitude it doesn't.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
so, two out of three metrics say he is above average
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
plus the magical one our front office uses
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
The one based off of Field f/x?
Psh nawwwwww that can’t be accurate
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
he's *been* above average
However, he was relegate to 2B last year for a reason and he’s older. I would guess he’s a -5 defender now.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2010 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
what reason?
because there were better shortstops on the teams he played for?
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
The Dodgers?
They had like Jamie Carrol right?
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2010 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
rafael furcal
and carrol put up 2.4 WAR in like 300 PAs
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
-5?
Nice job pulling that out of your ass. Let’s see his yearly UZR totals.
’07 – +4.4 in 859 innings
’08 – +1.7 in 1266 innings
’09 – +3.7 in 1311 innings
’10 – -3.3 in 246 innings
So I guess you put all the weight on his -3.3 despite immense SSS and none of it on his previous three years while adding in aging?
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 28, 2010 5:17 PM EST up reply actions
actually pulled it out of B-R
I didn’t figure anything. Read up about 10 posts, I freely admitted I was arguing just for the sake of arguing.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
and thats what I get for not reading up myself
/facepalm
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Based off of those numbers
I would call him around an average defender before you factor in aging. A straight average of that has him like 2 runs above average, and once you regress to the mean and include that fact that his worst was most recent, you’d call him roughly average. Aging brings it down a couple of points, so maybe -2 runs next year.
Of course that neglects the fact that most people think Theriot is shitty defender. The fans scouting report had him around average overall defender:
http://tangotiger.net/scout/index5.php
However, shortstops as a whole are well above average defenders, so Theriot is below average.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2010 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
ok
Well, that’s a stark contrast from -5 runs below average defensively.
I’d say -1 or -2 runs below is a good bet. He should go up offensively based on his career numbers as well.
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 28, 2010 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
-2 runs is his projection if you regress to the mean of the league average shortstop
Since, due to our scouting substitute, Theriot does not look like an average shortstop, his projection would be lower.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2010 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
honestly, you're still putting too much weight on last season
his negative last year I guess was enough to make him league average. His age makes him regress a shit ton apparantly and then you make the argument that scouting should put him at -5
I’m not buying that.
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 28, 2010 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
What part do you disagree with?
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2010 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
him being a -5 defender
He’s still only 31 so I don’t see his defense taking a massive hit like -2. Scouting reports say he is average so I don’t understand why we are assuming he’d be below average as a shortstop
-2 is where I put him at the lowest (projection-wise – of course he could go lower)
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 28, 2010 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
Scouting reports say he's average for all players
That’s what the FSR does. But since an average defender overall would be a below average shortstop, he scouts below average.
I’m pretty sure that’s how the Fans Scouting Report works.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2010 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
I'll admit the -5 was pulled out of my ass
But the numbers seem to support it, or close to it.
His career UZR/150 at SS is 1.4, with his worst season most recent. So we can say that his “true” UZR is around 0.
That UZR still needs to be regressed to something because it will have a lot of error bars, and players can over or underperform their true talent level over a period of time. So you look at what people think of Theriot’s defense from a scouting point of view, and they generally think it’s pretty bad. So he’s regressed down to -2 or something.
Aging brings it down further, I don’t know the exact curve, but 31 year old shortstops probably have a pretty steep decline.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2010 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
his most recent season
is a 200 inning sample and is practically meaningless
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
But it's something
Enough to bump his weighted UZR down to around 0.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 29, 2010 2:40 AM EST up reply actions
but it's so unreliable
there’s no point in even considering it
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
I think you should consider it
It’s not like there is some arbitrary line between 800 or 1200 innings and 200 innings. You’d just weigh them by plate appearances. And since the 200 came more recently, it get’s a higher weight per PA than the other years.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 29, 2010 3:09 AM EST up reply actions
i don't understand
where PAs come in. i would say it’s about 1/10 of a decently reliable sample, so, you would give it 1/10 the weight you normally would. you like 5/4/3, so that would be .5/4/3 which i don’t think drags him down to -2 runs. but really, even if he is -2 runs, that’s pretty much average
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
There is no such thing as a "decently reliable sample"
1200 innings of UZR is as much more reliable compared to 1000 innings, as 400 is compared to 200 (does that syntax make sense? Whatever.) 200 innings of UZR is exactly 1/5 as reliable as 1000 innings.
But less do the actual math. Theriots had 246 innings last year, which is right about 19% of his previous two years’ innings. So the weights would be .95/4/3.
His UZR/150s are -18.1, 4.1 and 2.3, so using the weights above gives him a .5 UZR/150 projection. So that’s raised up a bit when you include his 2006 data, so I guess it’s around a 1 weighted UZR/150.
However, that’s all unofficial as the first type of regression to the mean should be done before the weighting.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 29, 2010 3:26 AM EST up reply actions
Ok, here's a question
and I’m not referring to Theriot (or any other particular player). If someone, in their career, has been slightly above average, say averaging a +1.5 UZR/150, outside of aging, why do you HAVE to “regress” this player to average? If, historically, he has performed slightly above average, why does he, necessarily, have to regress to a lower value. You mentioned large error bars. There is just as great a chance that the “error” will be above his average career performance as below. So why is his projection (again, outside of aging) not equal to his career average?
by ArkansasTravs on Dec 28, 2010 7:15 PM EST up reply actions
There are two questions there
One is about how to best determine past value, the other is how to best determine future value.
The reason you would regress UZR for past value purposes is to try to mitigate luck. UZR and other fielding stats have high error bars – meaning that a player who saved 5.2 runs likely didn’t save exactly that many runs and the real number could potentially be anything. And because, on average, it’s more likely that a player’s runs saved are closer to zero than further away, you would regress a players UZR closer to zero.
The reason you regress UZR for predicting the future is similar to the reason I just gave you, but a bit different. A players past performance is put up in a finite sample size and thus is only a sample of what his true performance would be if he got an infinite amount of plate appearances. Because there are more average players in the major leagues (not baseball talent as a whole, but those who play in the majors) than players on the extremes of the talent curve, it’s likely that a players sample performance is further away from the mean compared to his “true” performance. So any player who has been above or below average, for any amount of time, is likely a bit worse than their numbers.
Now, this is a bit simplified of an explanation. I use words like “average” and “mean” cavalierly. Each player has his own average, which would ideally be based off his body attributes and stuff. However, since we don’t know how to quantify that stuff we use the lowest common denominator: the fact that he plays in the major leagues. That’s why I mentioned the scouting mean of Theriot.
Here are two articles that in succession should give you a good overview of how to project players:
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/a-treatise-on-true-talent/
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/projecting-hanson/
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 29, 2010 2:54 AM EST up reply actions
OK, I can understand that reasoning
I still think regressing a player to HIS average performance should bear more weight than the league average. In other words, I guess I can concede the point of some regressing in projections toward the league average, but maybe not to the extent it seems to usually be done.
As a non-baseball example, if I have a student who has taken classes from me for the past four semesters and averaged a 93 +/- 2 in those four classes, I would expect him to achieve somewhere between 90 and 96, most likely, in this semester’s class, not 88-93. (and, yes, there are some bias issues there, but let’s assumed his previous work does not bias my grading)
by ArkansasTravs on Dec 29, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
Jamey Carroll was a 2.4 fWAR SS last year
in fewer PAs than Boog (Boog was a 1 WAR SS). Asking why LA played Carroll at SS does not really speak to Theriot vs. Boog because Carroll was far better than both of them.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 28, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
Do you mean that Boog was a 1.0 fWAR SS last year?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
you mean Carroll was a 2.4 fWAR utility player last year
with about half of his playing time accumulated at SS. As a SS, he put up a UZR/150 of 4.0, Boog’s was 12.1. The discussion is about the ability to play SS. If Theriot is as capable of playing SS as is being stated, and is only a slight downgrade from a 12.1 UZR/150 SS, why wasn’t he shifted to SS and Carroll played at 2nd, where he put up a UZR/150 of 11.4 himself?
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
who said he was a slight downgrade from 12.1?
If Carrol was a 4.0 and with his offense was able to be worth 2.4 fWAR then it is completely relevant to state that he was a better SS than either Boog or Theriot.
Theriot can play SS. He has had a positive UZR every year before last year when he played hardly there barely at all.
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 28, 2010 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
the article today
I hope you are right regarding Theriot. It is extremly sad that to support the Theriot argument we are trotting out that Jamie Carrol, a career utility guy, has more value than either option we had at SS.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
but the really bad argument
is to say that ryan theriot is a bad SS because when joe torre put him in the lineup, he put him at 2B
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
it is?
a major league manager who needed a SS, had said SS on his roster, and instead chose to play a guy there who hadn’t played the position in 2 years. Ok.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
it's an appeal to authority
so yes, it’s a bad argument. it may be true that he’s a bad SS, but that’s definitely not the way to argue it
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
oh look
tony la russa thinks jon jay is better than colby rasmus. therefore jon jay is better than colby rasmus
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
ok
Joe Torre and Lou Pinella both think this guy cant play SS, but TLR does. . .
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
ONLY ONE OF THOSE THREE IS STILL A MAJOR LEAGUE MANAGER!!!
Check and mate, scoot!!!!
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
the other 2 had the good sense to retire
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
ya but even they stayed in the game too long
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
tlr
just wanted anyone but boog
even theriot
otherwise, why didn’t we get carroll for hawk?
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
very well may have but couldn't
i’d definitely like to have his on-base skills. and really, considering the fact that he could be a backup at 3B, it’s hard to imagine that mo’ didn’t inquire. i’d bet the price tag was higher than hawksworth
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
by prophetjohn on Dec 28, 2010 11:10 PM EST up reply actions
tony la russa doesn't have a better option
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
tyler greene will be the better option
tell me you werent expecting that answer.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
tyler greene is stupid
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
not as stupid as pete kozma
that guys so stupid he cost us rick porcello or something like that.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
we traded Pete Kozma for Rick Porcello and some Alf pogs, if'in I recall correctly.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Remember Alf???
He’s back! In Pog form!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
well sure, now he doesn't since the no fun police ran Boog out of town
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
Any time there is a number of dirt particles on shirt quotient
You know there is a problem
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
RIP Boog. FIRE TLR NOW
by VolsnCards5 on Dec 28, 2010 7:04 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I have a feeling their internal metrics
are just +/-, but represented in “Cliffhanger” form.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Dec 28, 2010 9:30 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
cards D represented by cliffhanger guy falling off said cliff.
Fire John Mozeliak & Tony LaRussa! (Good luck in Seattle, Boog!)
Bob Barker
Say what you will of ol’ Mr. Spay-And-Newter, the guy knew his metrics.
Repeal The LaRussa Tax.
by Michael_68_1999 on Dec 28, 2010 10:26 AM EST up reply actions
The WAR is WRONG, BITCH
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
uhm, ok
facepalm
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
it appears to me
this article is more of the “can’t do anything about the changes, might as well accept it and try to spin it as positively as possible” variety while arguing that, yes the defense will be down, but not enough to make a difference compared to the offensive upgrades. I’ll believe that when I see it.
I am glad to see that logic is starting to get through to Schumaker. Baseball specific training? For a baseball player? Brilliant! He had also started to run through first more often instead of that stupid head first slide. Now if they can only talk him into using an infielders glove on the infield.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
judging from the picture in the article
he just doesn’t look like an infielder. I know these snaps are unfair to judge, but he doesn’t look at all comfortable — my first reaction to this is flat-footed, leaning backwards, and reaching instead of cradling, but maybe I’m biased from having seen him play. I’ll give him points for concentration though
Just win
The only good thing I saw in that article
was the quotes from Schu. You would expect that he would realize he didn’t have a good year, but seeing him say so made me feel, just a little bit, better about his future. I’m really, really extrapolating here, but if Schu recognizes that he cost the team last year, then, surely, the team realizes it too and, so, if the performance is repeated, there (hopefully) will be no contract extension forthcoming. (This would only seem to make sense anyway, but we all know that if Tony comes back in 2012, the chances of Schu being on the team (and starting) go up exponentially.)
by ArkansasTravs on Dec 28, 2010 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, we may not be huge fan of Schu
based on his performance, but he’s by all accounts a hell of a guy. I know that shouldn’t matter if that same “hell of a guy” can’t hit a slow-pitch softball, but at least he knows what he has to do.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
Yep,
hopefully he’ll follow the trend MerryCRasmus presented and have a bounce back year at the plate. And, hopefully, the extra, early ground ball drills will help his defense.
If both events don’t happen, I hope he isn’t on the club in 2012 (or at least not starting and he’d be a bit pricey as a bench player).
by ArkansasTravs on Dec 28, 2010 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
yeah!
everything is an outrage!
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
by prophetjohn on Dec 28, 2010 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
so Goold took great offense to me telling him it was a bad article
overreacting ftw
ts ts ts…
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....
you really let him have it
Your team is incompetently run by baseball equivalent of the captain from the Caine Mutiny -DiscoJer
Where did this go down?
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
i actually really like the guy and his articles but come on, that was one miserable fail today
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....
ok...I'm not good with the facebook.
Can I have a link?
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
I like your profile picture d-dee
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 29, 2010 2:57 AM EST up reply actions
cause it's so new and different, right?
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....
i'm thinking he took offense to you calling him drunken and illogical
by YesWeOquendo on Dec 28, 2010 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
i know
but he really was illogical and the other was tongue-in-cheek
geez
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....
he's drunken on tony power
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2010 6:22 PM EST up reply actions
None of that artical was his opinion
It was entitled “Cards feel denfense won’t be a problem”
It was filled with stuff like this.
They move into positions manned by Gold Glove-caliber defensive players at the start of 2010 — Brendan Ryan and Ryan Ludwick, respectively.
Mozeliak’s opinion, one echoed by La Russa,
“I’m of the belief that the defense question is being overstated,” Mozeliak said.
Mozeliak acknowledges that Berkman “is a question,” but
I don’t see anywhere there were Goold said he believed the Cardinals defense will be better.
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
he didn't dispute/question/took a position on any of it
and the train of thought in the article is contradictory
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....
it's not his job to dispute/question/take a position. he's supposed to report it as unbiased as he can
it’s our job to dispute/question/take a position
he’s reporter, not a columnist
by YesWeOquendo on Dec 28, 2010 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
which is why we hate Strauss and like Goold.
Both are reporters, Goold is the only one who acts like it.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
i like goold because he is good at sober analysis
backed up by numbers
and he’s not a douche
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....
I enjoy reading an article without hearing the writers opinion randomly inserted into it
Sadly, Goold is the only guy left at the p-d that seems to do this, and that’s not just counting the sports department.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
i didn't expect opinion
but i would have expected more numbers to compare the projection to the FO’s position on defense
train of thought was very contradictory
that being said, Goold is the only one on the PD and FSNMW staff that i read regularly and in his entirety and i don’t expect this to change
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....
And here is his opinion
Good is relative. The Cardinals will field five players who were minus-fielders last season, and that’s a concern for any team, let alone one that relies so heavily on enticing soft contact and balls in play. There’s a reason why the Cardinals are the only team in the majors with at least 1,800 assists in each of the previous three seaosns – they get more grounders than any other team, and it is a tenet of their pitching philosophy.
The Cardinals will be "good" defensively, as Mozeliak suggests, if they are more consistent defensively. That includes decision-making and routine play-making. Both were lacking for stretches of last season. This team can be a more consistent defensive club than 2010. But it won’t be as dynamic defensively. There’s no whiz in the infield, not like Brendan Ryan. The Cardinals candidly acknowledge that Lance Berkman is "a question" in the outfield after so many seasons removed from the range.
The Cardinals are trading on their defense for offense, and that’s not unusual. They’ll give up some Web Gems (and, yes, some runs saved) in exchange for more runs scored. It’s unlikely that the defense will better. But the team might be.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Dec 29, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i like how he put this in
The Cardinals will be “good” defensively, as Mozeliak suggests, if they are more consistent defensively.
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 29, 2010 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
That doesn't make sense really
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 29, 2010 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
if they don't make mistakes they'll be good
Last year they afford to make mistakes. Because Boog may throw one away, but he will also snag one that should have been a hit. If Theriot and skip can limit their mistakes. they can still be “good.”
Though not as good as they would have been if Boog was still there and limited his errors.
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
I see no reason why consistency or limiting mistakes should matter
It’s all about how many runs you save.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 29, 2010 8:02 PM EST up reply actions
did I miss where
STL hired Joe Morgan as special assistant to the GM?
Not sure I've seen dumber baseball words: "Brendan Ryan became expendable after (Cardinals) acquired infielder Ryan Theriot." -Joe Posnanski
moreso that he put "good"
meaning he doesn’t agree
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 29, 2010 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
sober?
did you mean to put that? Or did you mean saber?
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 29, 2010 1:40 AM EST up reply actions
He generally saves most of his opinions
For his Birdland pieces, doesn’t he? I didn’t walk away from that thinking Goold doesn’t think there are questions about the defense. I took away that Goold asked the organization about it, and they told him everything is going to be just fine. If everything isn’t just fine, this place and Goold’s blog will be the first couple of places I’d expect to see an explanation of the whys.
by Merry CRasmus on Dec 28, 2010 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
that article was linked in birdland
i would very much like to see a followup
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....
This.
Goold has been pretty good at calling a spade a spade. At the same time he has been fair to the Cardinals. Not every article has to question the Cardinals approach. Don’t be surprised if/when the Cardinals defense looks bad come July that Goold references Mo’s/Tony’s opinions on why they thought the defense would be fine.
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
yeah he reacted strangely...
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
LINK????
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
effin weird.....
when I searched for it, it all looked legit, except the wall was just spam. Thanks.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
good stuff ddee, he's lying, of course he knew he was saying Boog was a bad SS
i’ve never seen him write such a kiss ass piece about the Cards. he let Mo, TLR & Skippy spew their shit & didn’t call them out on it. and what’s worse when he’s called out on it he lies & tries to spin it in his favor. i’ve lost a lot of respect for him today.
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
He's a reporter, not a columnist.
He is reporting on the way the organization views the defense in the wake of the moves this offseason. Is it first-rate journalism? No. But, it is far from being a hit piece on Brendan Ryan.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
no it's not a hit piece & i don't think i ever said it was
he knows good & well he implied Boog was a bad SS last year. i don’t know why he’s denying it, it’s very clear that’s what he did. what angers me is he’s being lazy or is afraid to ask the Cards all the questions we here would ask them if given the chance. if i had done this story i would have asked a lot of follow up questions, like what metrics did they use that led them to believe a guy who hasn’t played SS in two years would be a much better option then best defensive SS in the game?
of course i never went to collage let alone went to J skool, so i probably should just shut my moranic mouth & yell for mom to bring me some more Cheeto’s.
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
Cheesey Poofs, to be truthful?
Twas a bad article, but isn’t Goold allowed one of those?
Skip Schumaker fields like a goat wearing capes
nobody's perfect, i guess he is
this is what happens when we have nothing to talk about & two or our favorites are shipped out of town in the same season.
who doesn’t want cheesey poofs? hell yes i want some cheesey poofs!
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
If it makes you feel better, your name is very pretty
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
i haven't felt bad but thanks, i guess
did you make it out of LA?
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....
Yeah I've been in Missouri for like a week and a half now
If I were in LA, I would be on VEB much more often
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
fiance keeping you busy huh?
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....
nope, his mom.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
by RiverRat on Dec 28, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That would be accurate, yes
Moving into a new apartment’s tough work
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Get your apartment rented?
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Nope
Not even a nibble
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
How long are you on the hook for?
just the next semester?
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
Until August... but I think it'll be okay
People always wait until the last minute to find a sublease, so hopefully once it gets closer…
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
or there's always that tranny that wanted it..
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....
i don't know where the conversation was when you posted this
but i just now read it and he seemed level headed and logical throughout. not sure what you’re talking about
tbh, i didn’t read the article, though, because it’s that kind of offseason filler that tells you a whole bunch of nothing about what you already know. i’d rather just read danup
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
by prophetjohn on Dec 28, 2010 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
Now that I have read this I am glad I already gave it a rec.
Interesting stuff. I am definitely surprised that the lowest droppers seem to bounce back the highest (unless I’ve misunderstood something). However, couldn’t part of this be from the fact that, due to its mathematical nature, one point of OPS+ counts for different amounts depending on where in the scale we are talking about? There are more players clustered around 100 OPS+ than around 70 OPS+, and the numbers don’t translate one to one. A drop from 80 to 70 points in OPS+ is going to look different in raw OPS than a drop from 100 to 90 OPS+ even though they are both 10 OPS+… right?
Anyway, the gist of the results gel with what I would have assumed overall: when a player’s offense drops significantly he has a better chance of bouncing back towards previous levels than staying down or dropping further. This is cool because it gives some actual trends as to how much we should expect this, how often it does and does not happen, etc.
I think the logical next step in this kind of study is to start off from a significant improvement in OPS+ instead of a significant drop. Would there be similar trends in negative “bounceback” seasons, ie reverting back down after having a sudden improvement for a year?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I was wondering about that a bit too
But shouldn’t that same effect take place on the other side of 100 too? The age stuff was something I think we probably all already knew intuitively at some level. The OPS+ data was much more surprising to me..
The only theory I have that explains it is pretty directly tied to your suggestion for a next step. A big part of the difference might a certain segment of these drops would be more accurately desribed as a return to true talent levels after a season of extraordinarily good luck. So what I’d like to do when I get some time is just look a little more closely at the season before the drop, and mark any cases where that has turned out to be their career best performance. Once I get that, maybe I could filter those out and see how that moves the numbers. I’m not sure when I’d be able to go back and do that though, probably end of week at best.
by Merry CRasmus on Dec 28, 2010 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
The only thing that makes me think that might explain
all that much, is that not everyone’s career season will be some kind of 150+ type season. There might be a bias there towards the higher OPS+ subsets, but I wouldn’t think it would be all that stong. There are some really weak hitters in the sub 77 group that would have a career high performance around 100 too. So I think that part of it is probably pretty well baked into the cake, but I can’t know for certain until I look.
by Merry CRasmus on Dec 28, 2010 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
A drop from 80 to 70 points in OPS+ is going to look different in raw OPS than a drop from 100 to 90 OPS+ even though they are both 10 OPS+… right?
Yes, OPS+ should be a normal distribution around 100. A relatively small change in OPS could result in the difference b/w an OPS+ of 100 and one of 90, for example, while it would take a relatively larger change to go from 80 to 70 (you’d need to know what the standard deviations are to know how much greater).
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 28, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
[surprised that the lowest droppers ... bounce back the highest]
I don’t think it’s a scaling effect – after all the drop down from 80 to 70 is smaller (12.5%) than the bounce back from 70 to 80 (14.3%) !
The answer, I think, is that a player who drops from sub-average to the replacement neighborhood is more likely to be a cheap young player regarded as ‘on his way up’ than a more expensive old player – who generally has to have dropped pretty far already to be within shouting distance of replacement level. And when a young player bounces back, it’s to a True Talent level which has grown by two years experience, usually pretty steeply (see this article on aging curves: Pt1and Pt2), while an old player’s regression is to a True Talent level which has declined by two years aging.
The Mang does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man.
By the way, I found those articles looking for some guess at Pujols' likely aging curve;
and they offer a far more optimistic assessment than the approximations we’ve been working with here. “In the modern era [viz., 1980-2008], the player with a long and prosperous career [viz. at least 10 years and 5,000PA] peaks at 30, stays relatively stable until age 33, declines gradually (around two or three runs per year) after that until age 38, and then declines by around five runs per year after that.”
To be sure, these articles address only offensive performance [LW/500PA, which is basically the offensive component of WAR], not defense or playing time; but defense at 1B is less subject to deterioration than that at more demanding positions. If AP can stay healthy, I think there’s a good chance he’s worth more than we’ve been rash enough to guess.
The Mang does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man.
The problem with this analysis is that it does not take PEDs into account.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I know a lot of people think "PED"s prolonged careers and enhanced performance.
I don’t
The Mang does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man.
Fair enough.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Great post.
Makes me wonder about results by position. Some are easier on the bod (outfield, 1B, etc.) and some are tougher. I would think wear and tear would show up and be longer lasting up the middle. Just a hunch.
SD
Damn it.
Goold is starting to do promo crap. Maybe he’s just running out of things to talk about.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 28, 2010 10:55 AM EST reply actions
i want to know what TPG's opinion is of that picture
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Here's my favorite quote:
Honestly, I’m not worried about my numbers. I’m worried about games played. If your games played are there, then your numbers will be, too.
Not necessarily, slick.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 28, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
I'm surprised he wasn't mauled by a bear during the interview.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
obviously you didn't read the whole story
as Freese stepped out of the batting cage, a rogue bear attacked him, biting both feet off at the ankles. The Cardinals anticipate Freese will still be the best option at third this season, as soon as his prosthetic feet are delivered.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Dec 28, 2010 11:50 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Does he change his name to Steve Austin at that point?
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 28, 2010 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
what does Stone Cold have to do with this?
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
i seem to remember he did wear knee braces
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I knew that was coming.
Wrong Steve Austin.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 28, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
and I knew that was coming. Sorry, I had to do it.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
in bed
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Dec 28, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
I figured that's waht you were doing.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 28, 2010 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
Mozeliak
was quoted as saying after the bear attack, Freese is “progressing nicely.”
Repeal The LaRussa Tax.
by Michael_68_1999 on Dec 28, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
Looks like an outside pitch.
Would that not have something to do with it? He’s obviously taking it the other way….
And isn’t it hard to keep your upper and lower body connected when your lower body is entirely held together with some duct tape and prayers?
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
he's batting off a tee
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
by prophetjohn on Dec 28, 2010 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
which appears to be positioned outside
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
how can you tell?
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
by prophetjohn on Dec 28, 2010 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
oh.
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
by prophetjohn on Dec 28, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
Please do not interrupt us as we analyze
a still shot from an unknown camera angle that doesn’t show the lower half of the player. We have important conclusions to draw.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
by azruavatar on Dec 28, 2010 12:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Isn't that the best
way to disect a swing? One still photo that may or may not be from a camera that may or may not be 50 yards away?
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
This is David Freese.
THERE IS NO LOWER HALF OF THE PLAYER.
Brendan Ryan is no longer a St. Louis Cardinal.
Fortunately, Aaron Miles isn't either.
There is, it's just made of pieces of old broken bats,
held together with shoelaces, duct tape and the bubble gum from 1980’s Topps baseball card packs.
by RollBirdsRoll on Dec 28, 2010 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
[Snarky comment about this picture intended to show my disapproval of someone's opinion]
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
[Snarky reply which might be sarcastic but who knows at this point]
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Heh.
Cool stuff on Future Redbirds lately, by the way. I myself took off about an average 4 month old’s worth of weight doing little else than Wii Fit strength routines and fancied up step stuff every day. At some point I might be interested in trying something more serious, so I’ll have to remember your post.
The Cardinals farm system stuff is good too, of course.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I highly recommend "Starting Strength" if you want something a bit more serious
Great, simple program. I gained 40 pounds of muscle mass in a year on it
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Oh, and it's good for losing weight as well
The gaining/losing weight is purely dependent on how much you eat
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Yeah, I made a conscious effort to eat less
But I also am simply in better shape as well as lighter. Also, I only have room to lose so much weight, as I am down to about 135 (I’m 5’6" on a good day) so I like where I am right now.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
It's the internet
So divide it by 10 and thats what he did in real life.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
5'10
I was a skinny 170, got up to a muscular 210, but I’m back down to about 185 because I stopped working out and Ultimate Frisbee is incredibly aerobic and I lost some muscle mass
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
I've never heard 5'10/170 stated as skinny.
I’m 5’9/170, in decent aerobic health, and I’d describe myself as pretty stout.
5’10/210 is basically Pierre Thomas. You turned into a NFL running back.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Yeah I was pretty big for awhile
I wasn’t 5% body fat like an NFL running back, but I was stout
It was too big… that’s why I went on a big cut phase down to what I’m at now
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
BULLSHIT
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 29, 2010 6:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
40 pounds of pure muscle mass is
Just because of the difficulty in managing eating. It’s basically impossible to put on muscle mass without putting on fat mass without an incredibly rigid and tailored diet. You can’t run a calorie surplus as that=fat, and if you are eating less than optimal, you aren’t gonna put on the most muscle that you could (and without being a workout freak, you aren’t going to be putting on 40 pounds without doing it optimally)……and the window is very narrow. If you were 50 calories high per day, you are gonna put on 5 pounds of fat over a year, and if you were 50 calories low on any regular basis, well you aren’t gonna touch 40 pounds of muscle.
And the “optimal” is going to change on a day to day basis with off-days, or when you work out, or when you walk an extra half mile, so good luck knowing exactly how much to eat, and then that doesn’t even take into account the mid-day glucose/amino spikes/drops you’d have to manage. There’s a reason NFL guys have dieticians.
Not to be too patronizing, but it was in all likelikhood much more like 25-30 pounds of muscle and 10-15 pounds of fat. Don’t take that the wrong way, that’s really good, that’s being on the training program of a freshman year D-1 defensive linemen—-that’d be a 2% increase in body fat% while adding a shitload of muscle. But skinny 5’10 + 40 pounds would make you absolutely shredded not “muscular”, 40 pounds lean turns this guy into this monster.
Not afraid to nitpick
It was just the right amount of patronizing :)
But yes, you’re correct. It wasn’t 40 pounds of pure muscle. It was a very strict diet, eating at 500 calories above my maintenance weight, concentrated in protein, but 10-15 pounds of fat sounds about right
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Here's a link to an extremely detailed write-up of Starting Strength
The videos are old and probably don’t work, but it’s still good stuff
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
The SBN site
Male Pattern Fitness has some good stuff on it as well.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 28, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
dammit
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 28, 2010 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
that picture is a small sample size
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
thats what I thought you would say
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
But it doesn't mean anything
We don’t know what he was working on.
He’s got a nice swing and he’s the last person I’m worried about.
Boog would have made that play.
worried about albert and Holliday more than freese?!?
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
Well, albert does have that bad elbow and all.
He might have to learn to swing one-handed. Now that’s something to worry about.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 28, 2010 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
I heard they want Colby to be more like Skip...
/ducks
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
they want him to butcher ground balls?
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Dec 28, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, he's working on his fast-twitch muscles.
That should fix that.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 28, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
what the fuck was he thinking writing this?
how can a derrick goold go back and proof read this and think publishing it is a good idea?
how does a derrick goold conduct this interview with mozeliak and not call him out on the steaming pile of bullshit?
so disappointed…
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....
hello last week, it's nice to see you again
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
It would be interesting if you pulled contract data to go with this
IE picked out the individual down seasons that occurred during contract years and then found which types of players returned the most marginal value in their bounceback year. Obviously there would be a little (or a lot) of variance based on what sorts of players the market valued at any given time and I’m not really sure if it’s possible to correct for this, but it might provide some interesting data on what players to buy on, or if the market has already adapted to predicting bounceback seasons and the difference in marginal gains between categories of players is negligible.
Fire John Mozeliak
by purple_haze on Dec 28, 2010 1:24 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I think this would also be the best way to prove the conclusion that you seem to be trying to draw
That there exists a bias toward veteran players that constitutes a market inefficiency.
Fire John Mozeliak
by purple_haze on Dec 28, 2010 1:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I must say, great article
the depth of research should be a lightpost for fanposts to come.
also, people are pissed at Goold, but I’m guessing he’s just parroting the propaganda put forth by the front office. no big surprise there. they don’t pay him to give you his personal opinion anymore. it’s still hilarious to see how in love with Skip Schumaker the org is. I don’t get it.
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2010 2:23 PM EST reply actions
excuse my vitriol
as I can be vitriolic at times
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
maybe Goold agrees with the organizatation
that Boog was not essential to the success of our team.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
And he isn't
if he is replaced by another good defensive SS with a little better bat than Boog. But he wasn’t.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
or just replaced with another below average player...
which he was.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
how was he a below average player?
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....
by technicality, Boog was a 1 WAR player last year
that would be below average
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 28, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
A 57 OPS+ will do that.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
57 OPS+ is by no means a technicality
Fire John Mozeliak
by purple_haze on Dec 28, 2010 3:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
to get really technical
he had a below average performance last season. his true talent is probably around average
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
in 2007 his OPS+ was 95
in 2008 it was 59
2009 it was 97
2010 was 57
So, that leaves us with no doubt but to conclude that he will have a 99 OPS+ in 2011.
MO, YOU FOOL!
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
i meant overall
he’s a well below average hitter
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
I know. I just like faulty logic.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Wait what, don't you disagree with this?
Isn’t this what we’ve been arguing about for the past month?!
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2010 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
no
what we’ve been arguing about is whether or not this is the worst move in the whole world and whether or not we should, as a result, waterboard john mozeliak for 14 weeks and then toss him in the desert to starve to death
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
whatever
all of that was your idea
Your team is incompetently run by baseball equivalent of the captain from the Caine Mutiny -DiscoJer
Yeah, well I still think that's the only reasonable course of action
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2010 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
I'm pretty sure this idea has been mentioned on VEB
I’ve thought it, well except for the starving in the desert part.
Skip Schumaker fields like a goat wearing capes
if anything we should throw him in the blizzard
warm weather is too good for him
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
And if we judged a players true talent level based on one season, then yes, he would be below average
However, we use as much data as possible. If you average fWAR and rWAR, Boog’s averaged 2.5 WAR per 600 plate appearances over his career. Since he’s coming off of his worst year, you could bump him down to 2 WAR, but there is no way he’s not around average.
Theriot, on the other hand…
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2010 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
Well, i was answering her question.
how was he a below average player?
He WAS a below average player last year with a 1.0 fWAR. That doesn’t mean he is a 1.0 fWAR player, but verb tense is important in this case.
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 28, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
No, he wasn't
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2010 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
that doesn't make sense
either boog is essential to the team or not. his replacement doesn’t affect that
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
Essential is lame anyway
What amount of value makes a player essential? There’s really just more value or less value.
Fire John Mozeliak
by purple_haze on Dec 28, 2010 3:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
the point about boog is that his defensive value to a groundballing pitching staff is unquantifiable at this point in history
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2010 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
it's not unquantifiable at all
his UZR, DRS and TZ numbers all reflect his greater than average number of chances
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
yeah, but you know, it's not as accurate as it could be
and it’s hard to say how much more valuable it is to a Duncan staff. well I’ve tried anyway.
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2010 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
i don't see it
i would think if there were some systematic bias or flaw in the methodologies large and small samples would be subject to it. can you explain why you think a larger number of chances makes it harder to quantify?
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
I'm mainly referring to the noise in defensive metrics
but I agree, boog had more chances and this should prove his value to a groundball pitching staff. I think you’re being a bit obtuse about this.
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2010 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
or more likely
I’m not getting my thoughts across very well
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2010 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
my impression
was that you’re saying that boog, because he plays behind a dave duncan pitching staff, is more susceptible to that noise than any other player. i don’t understand that
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
not what I'm saying
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2010 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
it's more like I'm preaching to the choir
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 28, 2010 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
yeah!
![]()
Your team is incompetently run by baseball equivalent of the captain from the Caine Mutiny -DiscoJer
how can i be obtuse
when i’m such a-cutie?
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
Does this get cut off at
the T in obtuse for everyone, or is it just me? This happens a lot on here, so I’m wondering if I need to change something on the ol’ ’puter.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 28, 2010 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
go to the wide view & you can see it
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
poor guy doesn't know about wide view...
`
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
by prophetjohn on Dec 28, 2010 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
You tell me how to go to it
and then I’ll know…otherwise, shut yer yap.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 30, 2010 2:33 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
go to the top of the page
on the right side where it says vive el birdos in the gray box, it also says
new fanshot fanpost
edit fanshot fanpost
view narrow wide
click the narrow or wide & you’ll change the width of the page
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
what does essential mean?
Technically Pujols’ isn’t essential, he’s only an 8 WAR player.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2010 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
now see that doesn't make any sense
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 28, 2010 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, but neither does saying a 1 WAR loss isn't essential
They are both essential to vary degrees. I hate arbitrary cutoffs.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know what the Cardinals value as "essential"
or “more valuable than a A level pitcher”…but it’s not Brendan Ryan.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
Okay, but what does that mean?
Do you agree that trading Ryan costs us wins next year?
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
it doesn't matter...
i’m not saying anything as to what I think. All I was saying is that the organization evidently doesn’t think that trading Ryan costs them any wins this year.
Mike Shannon: "That strikeout was brought to you by...by...well, I don't know what it was brought to you by!"
John Rooney: "It wasn't brought to you by anything Mike."
either that
or that ryan’s clubhouse presence was a bigger problem than the 5-10 runs lost by trading him
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
by prophetjohn on Dec 28, 2010 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
See I think both of the reasons are crap, and I have to believe that you do too
There is a chance that they are right, but there is just nothing in the way of evidence or precedent. Ryan is most likely 10 runs better than Theriot. And, there are so many assholes in the game who have to have a more detrimental effect on their teams than Ryan, and they can’t all be costing their teams much more than 5-10 runs (if any).
I understand that you think we are overreacting but can you guys please stop defending a move in which it is fairly obvious that it is the wrong move?
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 29, 2010 3:02 AM EST up reply actions
i think it's crap
but i also don’t think we’ll ever know what kind of effect he was having on the clubhouse
worst case scenario is that the clubhouse thing was made up and john mozeliak just got drunk and now we’re out a win. i’m just having a hard time being outraged over one win. sure, it’s best not to squander any wins and a single win could be what decides the division. but there’s just so much noise in a single season — look at the cards pythag v. their actual ‘10 record — that a win isn’t that significant. unless you’re concerned with an overall trend in not being able to evaluate talent, which i don’t see
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
As I showed before
Losing a projected win likely decreases our playoff odds by about 10%, it could be more, it could be less, but 10% is the average for ~90 win teams. I don’t know what significant means, but a ~10% decrease in playoff odds is not insignificant.
Another good reference point is comparing it to the Berkman deal. The wins we lose with the Ryan/Theriot thing are in the same range as the ones we gained with the Berkman signing. I can agree that the Berkman signing is probably better, but they are close.
As for the overall trend, I definitely think it’s bad. It reverses all of the optimism in my head following the Berkman signing. My opinion of the front office is the lowest’s it’s been since the Feliz deal this season.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 29, 2010 3:16 AM EST up reply actions
i think you emphasize the bad moves in your mind
and gloss over the good ones
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
Well the bad moves certainly outnumber the good moves in my mind
Perhaps we should do a formal study on this.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 29, 2010 3:27 AM EST up reply actions
the team has said they are sacrificing D for more O
so if Berkman, theroit & skippy hit they won’t care how bad defensively they are. which once again shows just how assbackwards their thought process is. the GOB’s won’t be able to save them from my wrath if they are wrong though. why i’ll bitch & moan here & on twitter all summer long if they are wrong.
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
sounds like it'll be fun
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
we'll see how much the pitchers appreciate Albert & the no fun po po
shipping him out for nothing when theroit lets ground ball after ground ball go by & commits error after error
oh and i wonder what Albert will think when he gets run over by Big Veb because a throw got away theriot? hopefully he’ll learn his lesson before it hits him where it will hurt most. his wallet.
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
this kind of stuff doesn't do anything for me
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
i hear that a lot
honestly i’m really bitter about this. probably a lot more than i should be. i just don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t like Boog, let alone hate him enough to get him traded. especially Albert. that goes against everything he supposedly believes in.
i don’t understand why the FO & TLR can’t see Skippy should be on the bench & theroit at 2nd & Boog at SS. it boggles my mind that an unemployed uneducated loser like myself understands the game of baseball better than highly educated men who makes millions of dollars & are actually in charge of running a major league team.
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
because tlr
leads to move after move that goes against baseball skill?
when will catering to the desires of a grouchy 65 y.o. man be replaced by telling him to “like it or lump it”. the boog trade is aggravating in isolation, but more irritating than it should be be because of the continuing context of why it was done.
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
...to DFA TLR
This
I think that pisses me off the most. Why we are tailoring our team’s future to fit a crab-ass that is, at best, a temp, is well beyond my reasoning skills.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 29, 2010 9:11 AM EST up reply actions
well, it appears your picture of Theriot is most likely wrong
so I guess on that note, you’ll probably be surprised at how good he is defensively. You seem to think he’s Miles which he’s not.
Not saying he is good defensively, but you seem to think he’s the worst in the league ("error after error, “gets run over”). He’s probably just a little below average.
Of course, I’ll know everytime he makes a mistake with the help of VEB. Looking forward to that!
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 29, 2010 4:16 AM EST up reply actions
Gratuitously off-topic
but it’s late night in the UK, anyway, so I guess this is late-night-VEB-safe (it’s also totally SFW).
If you’re a fan of 8-bit video games, this video is extremely cool. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou8vRWTSsJo
Still bitching to contact.
I'm excited by all these player interest stories
means that the Lance Berkman-best-shape-of-his-life piece is coming very soon. Which means that the robot will be changing his avatar for the opening week.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I'm going to make you're avatar a picture of Ryan Theriot
when I win.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
That's just cold.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
There is no warmth in these veins
only ice water, hydraulic fluids and malice.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
Wouldn't water shortcircuit the junk?
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2010 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
Don't be talkin' about
his junk, unless you’re Aranathor.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 28, 2010 9:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I thought OPS+ was worthless and passe and we should only use wOBA
Calm down, I’m just kidding.
Sort of.
Boog would have made that play.
Ease of use
I could get it really easily from B-Ref, and get it in a way that worked for the filtering out of the initial sample, the year following, and the 3 years also. I’m not sure how I could have done the same with wOBA.
by Merry CRasmus on Dec 28, 2010 8:55 PM EST up reply actions
it's good for comparing across leagues or seasons
but as a rule of thumb wOBA is much better
and really, if you want to compare across leagues and seasons, you should use wRC+
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
OPS+ is worthless if you have wOBA
Actually that’s not the case, because OPS+ includes park factors whereas wOBA doesn’t necessarily do so. OPS+ is worthless if you have wRC+.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 29, 2010 3:06 AM EST up reply actions
Now, I'm not talking about calculating an individual's offensive value, I'm talking in broad, league-wide terms
Don’t OPS and OPS+ correlate with runs scored, or some other big bulk stat like that, surprisingly well compared to wOBA? I have no idea about wRC+, never seen a comparison.
Anyway, if there were a way to do this study with wOBA or wRC+ instead of OPS+, would the difference be great? Or would it just tighten things up and make it undeniably more accurate?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Yeah, OPS is pretty close to wOBA in terms of accuracy
But it’s always going to less accurate. If all you knew about a player was his OPS and wOBA, the wOBA would be more accurate every single time. That renders OPS worthless if you have wOBA. As a standalone stat, it’s pretty good.
The difference in the results of the study? I have no idea, probably wouldn’t change much.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 29, 2010 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
Right, that's what I was thinking, but I was fuzzy on the details.
It’s not bad in a vacuum, but wOBA is always and forever better than OPS, and since it’s free it should be used when possible.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I think of OPS+ as the best way to bridge "common" folks into advanced baseball stats
enough baseball fans know what OPS is now (thanks ESPN!), and OPS+ isn’t hard to grasp once you know that. If you were to write anything for a mass audience using wRC+, you’d have 1% of the readers sucking their own dicks about how awesome it is, 1% calling you a nerd, and 98% just not reading it, because what the shit is this guy talking about.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
one thing throws people off about OPS+ though
it doesn’t look like OPS
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 29, 2010 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah sure I can appreciate OPS+ as a bridge
But it’s systematically inferior to wRC+, so once you know what that is, you should really only be using that.
Besides wRC+ isn’t that hard to explain, it actually makes more intuitive sense than OPS+.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 29, 2010 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
Goold is having a very bad day
wow, just wow
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
the 1969 Yankees, who won it all, OF was Berra, Mantle, and Maris
got it. The host is clearly a real baseball fan.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
wait... what fucking show is this?
who are these people?
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
they said espn101 about a dozen times
so no matter what, dmarco farr is involved
by YesWeOquendo on Dec 28, 2010 8:55 PM EST up reply actions
There was a whole lot of willful ignorance in that
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
i have no idea who they were, but they were filling in for Bernie
i didn’t know he was on vacation or i wouldn’t have even listened to it in the first place
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
I think he said 1961, not '69.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 28, 2010 9:32 PM EST up reply actions
upon further review, he did.
I was still flustered about pylometrics.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
what did he do?
i listened to the whole thing and got nothing
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 29, 2010 1:48 AM EST up reply actions
must,,,,resist,,,,must,,,,be,,,,nice,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
it was just a really bad interview with bad hosts. i didn’t meant to hint that Goold did something wrong. he didn’t really do anything wrong except hit that mini me might come back. which should never, ever be thought let along talked about on the airwaves in the STL. those stupid freaking hoosiers love that guy for some stupid reason.
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
I kind of wish he had slammed that Miles thing down though
When the guy said something about giving Feldman credit, then he should have been like “well that would just be an awful move on the part of the organization as they have much much better internal options.”
Yeah the interviewers were stupid. “What’s the backup plan for Berkman?” Are you stupid? Seriously, you don’t know the answer?
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 29, 2010 4:19 AM EST up reply actions
Tony drank too much Cab and is a twittering, me thinks.
@TonyLaRussa: Avoid misconception, building winner about major moves. Each roster spot adds depth. Priority now, go deep to add wins.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
I'm envisioning him
saying that in a Yoda voice.
by Merry CRasmus on Dec 28, 2010 9:09 PM EST up reply actions
that's essentially what I tweeted back.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Ha!
I see that now.
I’m wondering exactly what this all means, but I’m worried this means Tony is thinking about lil’ #12 again tonight.
by Merry CRasmus on Dec 28, 2010 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
so that's what they're calling it now
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
It's like Tony's a horoscope now.
Dealing with personalities can be key to succeeding at your job. Tonight: decline the invite to go out on the town and take it easy with family.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
sitting low enough
the glass would have to break for him to get hurt
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
oh how he tempts the GOBs.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
do not mention glass breaking around david freese's ankles
by YesWeOquendo on Dec 28, 2010 9:28 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
I'm in St Louis!
For the first time in years, since I graduated high school, I am in the beautiful city of St Louis. This may not seem like a big deal to you all, but this is huge for me.
Fire John Mozeliak
by purple_haze on Dec 28, 2010 10:20 PM EST via mobile reply actions
i get it dude, trust me, i get it
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
Trader Joes: Aldi's for white people.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Dec 29, 2010 9:47 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
what?
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Yes
damn kids.
And, as a qualifier, we shop at both Aldi’s and Trader Joe’s and I am thoroughly convinced that the Albrecht family only opened Trader Joe’s so yuppies would shop at their stores.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
TJ's isn't a franchise...
the company owns all the stores, or at least that’s what I thought.
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
yes and no. Mostly no.
“Trader Joe’s was founded by Joe Coulombe and is owned, since 1979, by a family trust set up by the late German businessman Theo Albrecht, one of the two brothers behind the German supermarket chain Aldi.4”
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Jesse Ventura would be proud.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
so me saying "opened" was the wrong word
“got into business with”
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
I've been in Trader Joe's once
Wasn’t that impressed. To each his own, I guess.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
We buy our table wine there. Cheap, okay stuff.
my wife likes their frozen meals, I’m not real impressed.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
i have a friend who raves about their fresh produce
which is not something I’m exactly in to.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
i miss farmer markets right now.
and my garden.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
It's vastly cheaper than WF...
and vastly higher quality than the typical grocery store.
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
and vastly unavailable in Advance, MO
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Maybe you should move to somewhere
that civilization exists.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
Advance is actually...
the largest, most cosmopolitan outpost on hwy 25 between Cape Girardeau and Bloomfield.
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
by guayzimi on Dec 29, 2010 11:54 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
if fancy groceries is a sign of "civilization"
I’ll stick to the small town where I can grow my own and kill what I want to eat. Besides, we have a Country Mart. And a McDonalds.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
not a boot heeler
still have all my teeth.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
you want weird
you need to go to City Museum.
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Dec 28, 2010 11:26 PM EST up reply actions
The Loop is totally different now.
I think that’s a good thing, personally. There are no more National grocery stores that I know of. The Sinclair gas station on Skinker by my parents’ neighborhood has been a veterinary hospital for years. The world has gone mad!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
As long as you're there come
March 31, when the Crads open up vs. SD.
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a changeup, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman" - Bob Gibson
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 30, 2010 2:39 AM EST up reply actions
has anyone played
MLB front office manager? it’s $1 on steam right now
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
I have
I enjoyed it. However, that assessment comes with qualifiers – you can’t play the baseball games, only manage and that in itself is somewhat limited to the basics (pitching – pitch to batter, walk batter, hitting – hit, bunt, sac bunt, steal, double steal) and your typical defensive and offensive substitutions. Can’t double switch, or else I just haven’t figured out how yet. I like the micro-managing you can do at every level of the organization, drafts, Rule V, scouting budget, etc. In about 5 years (game time) you won’t recognize any of the names (only MLB have actual people, the rest of the minors are made up). Career mode is difficult – you think you’ve built a good team and yet you continue to lose in the first year. I’ve had better luck actively managing the games than just simming them, but it’s still aggravating.
All in all though, I enjoy it for the most part. If it’s only a buck, heck, go for it.
Amaury Cazana for RF in 2011 - the legend will never die!
why?
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 29, 2010 4:20 AM EST up reply actions
Wish I knew, good sir
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
All that noise from his mother's room.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Dec 29, 2010 9:48 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Probably used to that by now.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
I don't remember if it was discussed or not
but I really like the idea of promoting a fanpost to the front page when it is clear someone has put this much work into one.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
i concur, doc
"I still don’t understand what commercial is better than having me on tv" – Chris Carpenter
coming in 2011: Boog would've moments count....
oh yeah, it's wednesday
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 29, 2010 1:12 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
i think RB pulled a VEP
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 29, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
f'n sbn
typed this all up and lost it once.
My dilemma today: As I’ve mentioned before, we ordered a sectional for Christmas. It was delivered on Christmas Eve. Problem is, its not the one we thought we ordered. I ordered it from a company that ordered it online without me looking at what they were ordering. I just gave them the name of the sectional, not knowing that there are actually 2 versions of the same sectional. Apparently the manufacturer holds exclusive rights to the one that we want.
The dealership I’m dealing with has given me three options: we can keep the one we have, trade for something they have in stock, or return it minus a re-stocking fee.
The moral to this story: Make sure you actually see what you are buying. Here’s the one we want. Here’s the one we got.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
So, how do you like your new couch?
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
heh, I like it just fine, and I'll be happy to be stuck with it
it’s very comfortable, which is all that I’m worried about. The missus is more worried about the differences.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I'm guessing the one you got is just a shade darker?
Look at it this way, it’ll hide the stains better.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 29, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
depends on the stain...
Boom!!!!!
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
They are, unfortunately, part of doing business....
GM charges me 30% restocking fee to return parts, I have no choice but to pass that on if someone wants to return a special order. Now in scoot’s case, I would think that the retailer would be on the hook, as it was not what was ordered. If I get the correct part, and the customer just decides that they don’t want it, it’s gonna cost em.
Asshattery: it's an epidemic.
Second base….I’ve played second base, how hard can it be? -TLR
Also, Dave Concepcion.
most recent word is
they may be able to waive the fee. Sounds like we may just be keeping what we got. Find out more tomorrow.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
i like the one you were supposed to get better, not that it means anything
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
well now we are talking about getting the original
my life is like a lame furniture soap opera right now.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
clearly. . .
you are married. LOL. been there done that, man, about a gazillion times.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 29, 2010 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
on the next episode of Scoot's Dilemma:
the friendly neighbor is willing to take the old couch off of scoot’s hands for him… or is he?!?!
a dog walker passes by and peaks into the window, they are surprised by something off camera!!!
an ominous stain appears on the middle cushions fabric! is it scoot’s?!?! is mrs. scoot cheating with the friendly neighbor!?!?
find out what happens next episode of Scoot’s Dilemma. flip over that cushon scoot!!
by YesWeOquendo on Dec 29, 2010 5:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, thank God we got meme’s under control in 2010. Good luck in 2011!
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
heh
i’ve been a member of a number of these sort of things in the past, and I’d say it’s fairly typical that people lose interest after a year or two.
this isn’t unique to VEB. i expect myself to be in a similar place in a year or so
by prophetjohn on Jan 4, 2010 8:26 AM CST up actions
I guess it’s gonna be “or so” then…
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 29, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
that one is, ironically, azru's fault
Your team is incompetently run by baseball equivalent of the captain from the Caine Mutiny -DiscoJer
...it worked without knowledge of that
Your team is incompetently run by baseball equivalent of the captain from the Caine Mutiny -DiscoJer
What a magical final comment to that thread.
So eloquent and tasteful.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
I dropped a microphone angrily as I clicked "post" I do believe.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Dec 29, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yeah
those were the good old days of VEB. back when people liked the cardinals
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
those were the good old days of VEB
back when people liked the cardinals before Mozeliak took our Boog away.
fixed ;)
Not sure I've seen dumber baseball words: "Brendan Ryan became expendable after (Cardinals) acquired infielder Ryan Theriot." -Joe Posnanski
you really weren't
sober here for 2009, were you?
would've.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there..." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Dec 29, 2010 6:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Amnesia by avocado.
Brendan Ryan is no longer a St. Louis Cardinal.
Fortunately, Aaron Miles isn't either.
I like most of the cardinals
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 29, 2010 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
i never saw that the first time around
i was pleased to see that when i rec’d it (a whole year later), the ticker went up 2, meaning i’m not the only one rec’ing a year after the fact!
Your team is incompetently run by baseball equivalent of the captain from the Caine Mutiny -DiscoJer
you're supposed to be good to your neighbors, not eat them
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 29, 2010 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
mmmmm, buuuuutttt baaaaacccoooooooooonnnnn
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
(God help me I should walk away from this.)
I know Fritz is giving me shit but I remember giving serious consideration to leaving VEB at the time I wrote that. Regardless of whether that message was liked by everyone, I feel like it worked and I think VEB’s been a better commenting community since then. The OT stuff’s not gone (and I never wanted it gone); it just feels more balanced on the whole.
It also helps that that Mister Eff jackass is gone.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
I agree, except that last part. Mister Eff is missed.
I was also mostly absent from game threads in 2010 as I no longer have a TV in my home office and I think that made me like VEB even more (no offense, game threads, but you’re kind of a drama queen).
Plus now there’s VEB twitter, so I’m even more connected with my pretend friends!
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
crying shame what happened to poor ole mister eff
I don’t think they ever found the body.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
and they won't
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
by Evilfrog on Dec 29, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
game threads are probably a lot better now that i'm not there either
and VEB is better as a whole a year later. VEB twitter does help the site as well. i thought we were more than pretend friends though
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
I think they can be a lot of fun sometimes
except for the overreactions, which can be easily ignored. they just get so busy sometimes that it can bog down the computer
turn it up to '11
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 29, 2010 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah. . .
nobody goes to game threads anymore, they’re too crowded.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 29, 2010 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
well that's an oxymoron
not sure if you meant that
DONNIE FUCKING JONES FOR PRO BOWL!
by stlcardsfan4 on Dec 29, 2010 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
oh, yeah. . .
well, you’re an oxymoron, too.
/childish fun
It was a nod to Yogi Berra.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 29, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
i haven't been to a game thread in months.
I didn’t get on base. One time I did (Wednesday) and we scored a run. That shows if I get on base, things can happen - Oilspill
by Evilfrog on Dec 29, 2010 7:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
My brother gave me a book about Yogi for Christmas.
“I didn’t really say everything I said” is a pretty good read. I takes all of his famous witticisms and gives the explanation for each of them.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 29, 2010 10:13 PM EST up reply actions
they can be pretty fun & actually they are my strong suit
i’m much better at watching the game & commenting on what i see rather than getting into the hard core stats & saber stuff like the day threads are full of. they do bog down rather quickly if there are no overflows, but as long as overflows are up they are still fun. i miss them, a lot more than i thought i would. hopefully i’ll be back in them in 2011.
All I've got is a broken heart, memories & dreams that I can't drink away
if they're your stong suit...
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

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