The Viva El Birdos Hall of Fame Farrago 2010: Results
by DanUpBaby on Jan 8, 2010 6:20 PM EST
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PrintI was able to match 119 ballots to registered accounts, which is an excellent total for our first year and my first Google Form. Without any ado, your Viva El Birdos Hall of Famers:
| PLAYER | VEB TOTAL | VEB % | BBWAA % |
| Mark McGwire | 101 | 84.9 | 23.7 |
| Bert Blyleven | 99 | 83.2 | 74.2 |
| Roberto Alomar | 95 | 79.8 | 73.7 |
| Barry Larkin | 86 | 72.3 | 51.6 |
| Tim Raines | 81 | 68.1 | 30.4 |
| Edgar Martinez | 58 | 48.7 | 36.2 |
| Alan Trammell | 54 | 45.4 | 22.4 |
| Lee Smith | 46 | 38.7 | 47.3 |
| Andre Dawson | 35 | 29.4 | 77.9 |
| Fred McGriff | 26 | 21.8 | 21.5 |
| Dale Murphy | 23 | 19.3 | 11.7 |
| Ray Lankford | 22 | 18.5 | 0.0 |
| Don Mattingly | 13 | 10.9 | 16.1 |
| Jack Morris | 11 | 9.2 | 52.3 |
| Harold Baines | 11 | 9.2 | 6.1 |
| Andrés Galarraga | 9 | 7.6 | 4.1 |
| Robin Ventura | 7 | 5.9 | 1.3 |
| Dave Parker | 4 | 3.4 | 15.2 |
| Kevin Appier | 2 | 1.7 | 0.2 |
| Pat Hentgen | 2 | 1.7 | 0.2 |
| Ellis Burks | 1 | 0.8 | 0.4 |
| Mike Jackson | 1 | 0.8 | 0.0 |
| Eric Karros | 0 | 0.0 | 0.4 |
| Todd Zeile | 0 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
| Shane Reynolds | 0 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
| David Segui | 0 | 0.0 | 0.2 |
You guys are tough. But all things considered this isn't an awful Hall result; McGwire, Blyleven, and Alomar are all deserving, and Larkin and Raines are in elect-me positions for the near future. Surprised to see so much Edgar Martinez skepticism, though (and Dawson skepticism, while we're at it.) Among players with at least five percent of the vote from either group, here's our list of relative favorites:
| Player | Difference |
| Mark McGwire | +61.2 |
| Tim Raines | +37.7 |
| Alan Trammell | +23.0 |
| Barry Larkin | +20.7 |
| Ray Lankford | +18.5 |
| Edgar Martinez | +12.5 |
| Bert Blyleven | +9.0 |
| Dale Murphy | +7.6 |
| Roberto Alomar | +6.1 |
| Robin Ventura | +4.6 |
| Andres Galarraga | +3.5 |
| Harold Baines | +3.1 |
| Fred McGriff | +0.3 |
| Don Mattingly | -5.2 |
| Lee Smith | -8.6 |
| Dave Parker | -11.8 |
| Jack Morris | -43.1 |
| Andre Dawson | -48.5 |
Fred McGriff is the missing link between VEB and the BBWAA.
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Comments
These bloggers got the vote all wrong.....
who lets them decide anyway???? Dawson was a lock.
* is an Asshat
Dawson - the new Mendoza line for the Hall of Fame
The Hawk’s Career OPS+ 119 Actual OPS .806 (.323 OBP .482 SLG)
Right there with Hall of Very Good stalwarts Ray Lankford Career OPS+ 122 Actual .840 (.364 OBP .477 SLG) and Dale Murphy Career OPS+ 121 Actual .815 (.346 OBP .469 SLG)
A bit behind Rock Raines Career OPS+ 123 Actual .810 (.385 OBP .425 SLG) (Raines only stole 494 more bases than Dawson)
Good news for Matt Holliday, though. Even his 2009 Oakland numbers (OPS+ 120, Actual .831 .378 OBP .454 SLG) would get him into the Hall at the Dawson threshold.
Last year Rice, this year Dawson.
It’s becoming a Hall of Better Than Average, not even the Hall of Very Good.
The Hall of Better Than Average Players Who Played At Least Intermittently With Good Ballclubs and Who Sucked More Than ESPN/Fox/Bill Plaschke Would Have You Believe
nice ring to it, huh?
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 8, 2010 10:50 PM EST up reply actions
I think they're pretty similar actually
Dawson was an elite defender at the beginning of his career, and Rice was a below average defender for most all of his career.
Rice, though, was a much better offensive player than Dawson was for the whole of his career: 128 OPS+ compared to 119 for Dawson. Lifetime .352 OBP vs. .321 for Dawson. Slugging? .502 vs. .482 favoring Rice.
Their prime years overlapped in different leagues. Rice (1977-1983) averaged a 140 OPS+ in his prime. Dawson (1980-1988) averaged a 129 OPS+. His prime was longer, but he essentially had two careers: The great defensive CF/RF and 20HR/30SB threat from ’77 to ’83, then two league average years as his knees gave out, then a resurgence as a slugger in Chicago.
Neither were very good by today’s standards, but I also think that we sometimes gloss over the fact that certain players played the game a bit differently. Dawson was never coached to take a walk and it wasn’t in his bucket of skills. It’s not in Pablo Sandoval’s bucket of skills either, but he’s doing ok from the look of it. I think we get caught up in evaluating the “one right way” to play the game and that’s not always going to work for some guys — they just need to play the way that is best for them and let the chips fall where they may. This is the Hall of Guys Who Played The Game The One Right Way, it’s the Hall of Fame.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
+thirteen barjillion
I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...
This is a drug free environment...
But yeah I agree…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
yeah, the mac and lankford votes seem to have an air of homerism behind them.
not that i dislike either. zeile on the other hand got no ex-cardinal love. and lee smith got no bump from his cardinal service, which is a little surprising to me.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
Closers are rarely...
loved by the home fans. Rivera is the exception.
Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word
I can't count the times I shook my hands in the air saying
“Izzy” out loud because he walked the based loaded
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 8, 2010 8:06 PM EST up reply actions
still
least favorite closer of my time = Dave Veres. He was worse than Izzy because it was always a line drive right at the SS or a diving catch made by Jimmy that saved him from humiliation. Izzy at least pitched well when he got himself into trouble, or at least that’s how I choose to remember it.
Some people have their own bowling ball and their own bowling shoes and no friends.
Izzy...
is probably the main reason for my receding hairline at age 28
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 8, 2010 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
dude...consider yourself lucky
you know some guys start losing their hair at like 17, right? Ahem…not me ::pulls down hat::
yep
i went to high school with a guy who was bald at 17
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 9, 2010 10:55 PM EST up reply actions
My best Izzy story...
the girlfriend and I at the time go up to Detroit in 06 for the summer games against the Tigers… Saturday nite the Cards are up by 2 going into the 9th I believe… Some Tiger fans get up to leave and I tell them they may want to stay… no game with Izzy is ever a sure thing. Sure enough Tigers come back to win.
Luckily I escaped the brainwashing of how awesome he was by everyone in my town… I grew up in the same town as he several years later…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
I pitched against him in high school...
…in the game I threw against him he walked almost as many as he struck out (something like 11BBs and 12Ks). After the 2nd inning guys were walking up to the plate thinking “I can’t hit his stuff so I am just going to take every pitch”.
I shook my head in confirmation every time I watched him pitch for the cardinals.
yeah, i was astonished at that.
2nd best leadoff hitter of, well, a hell of a long time…
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 8, 2010 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
Does Haudricourt have a VEB vote?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
he's in next year
he never has to work again.
he’s idolised by a lot fof people despite doing a fairly unimportant skill very well.
he’s probably slept with more hot members of the opposite/same sex (whatever your/his poison) than you could ever dream of.
He’s probably not worthy of the adjective “poor”, really.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 8, 2010 10:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Wait
David Segui got some votes from the BBWAA to be in the baseball hall of fame? Whhhaaaahhhh??
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
wait?
Harold Baines only got 6.1% of the BBWAA? Geez, he was right on the bubble for me.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
too be honest, I was going off memory
I actually remember him being better than he was. Yeah, he will probably fall off my ballot next year.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
To be honest, I may have voted Baines for this:
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/derek_jeter_honored_for_having
Still better reasoning than many BBWAA members.
I found this to be astonishing
considering all the fervor over Big Mac. Segui is an admitted steroid and HGH user with shitty numbers and HE’S getting a vote??? The BBWAA really need to have a summit and figure out the rules and stipulations for blackballing people.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
i'll go you one better, they shouldn't have the vote anymore period.
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
If only I could, I'd make a deal with the BBWAA
and get ’em to swap out places.
"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5
"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.
by Tudor's Electric Fan on Jan 9, 2010 3:38 AM EST up reply actions
It is rather ironic
That the person BBWAA and VEB most disagree with gets into the Hall. I wonder what is the cause of the difference? Maybe a ex-Cubs bias? I personally just didn’t think he was good enough.
I didn't think Rice was good enough last year
and I don’t think Dawson was good enough this year, and I think Rice was a slightly better player.
and I sure the hell ain’t gonna vote for Dawson over Raines.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
ditto
they belong in the hall of very good, not the HOF
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
in some naive way
i equate “fame” with the “hall of fame”. in other words, members would be those someone would recognize despite otherwise having absolutely no knowledge of baseball as opposed to “numbnuts got in because blahblah, therefore poindexter should be in because blahblahblah”. much like bowl games, the hall seems to have endured so many political sharp turns that it’s lost all meaning.
"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5
"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.
by Tudor's Electric Fan on Jan 9, 2010 2:30 AM EST up reply actions
word.
the collusion scandal of the late 80’s was direct retribution for that feces-caked chernobyl of an mvp vote. for real, i’m making it the thesis of my very being.
"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5
"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.
by Tudor's Electric Fan on Jan 8, 2010 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
Dawson
I really liked Dawson as a player even as a Cub but I think he’s a really really good player. I don’t think really really good players go into the HoF. I can’t believe that Raines didn’t get in. For a three year peak he was the best player in the league and over his entire peak he was always near the top. There’s an argument to be made for him being the 2nd best leadoff hitter of all time as well. I don’t consider him to be so but I can understand the logic.
Dawson was really good and I love his old baseball cards
but I don’t see how you can say he’s THAT much better than Mattingly, Dale Murphy, Lankford, Baines, or even a Strawberry and lots of others from that era (let alone Raines). They were all very good baseball players, and there is nothing wrong with that, they just don’t deserve the honor of what used to be akin to achieving sainthood in baseball, in my opinion.
by Mister Eff on Jan 8, 2010 7:25 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
The HOF hasn't been "sainthood" for a long, long time.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 9, 2010 1:05 AM EST up reply actions
He won an MVP for the Cubs...
which is akin to winning the Heisman at Notre Dame… way too big of a fan base for the accomplishment to be viewed in a fair and balanced manner…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
So MVP's are only really legit when a Royals or Rockies player wins?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 9, 2010 1:59 AM EST up reply actions
or white sox
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Not what I meant
What I meant to get across was when you win a MVP in one of the big markets I feel you get romanticized a bit more than someone who does it for a team like Royals or Rockies where you do it in more or less of a media vacuum.
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
He won that MVP for a suck ass Cubs team. That should balance out some of the media exposure, no?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 9, 2010 2:11 AM EST up reply actions
Possibly
but I can also see how it could be spun to “The team would have been historically bad without him. Quick let’s start renaming streets” mode. More than anything this comes down to my feeling that things that happen with the Cubs they are treated with a lot more emotion than any team but the Yankees and the Sawx. A quick example is that if Bartman happened with any of the other 27 teams in the league it would have been long forgotten about.
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
Who?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 9, 2010 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
18.5% for Lankford?
Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word
My vote for Ray might have been irrational, but I threw that out there going into the vote
I wanna know how Burks, Hentgen, and Appier got votes!
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I figure Jackson had to be DanUp
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
i didn't realise this was that serious!
I just threw Ray a vote assuming everyone else would. My other votes were 100% serious (I’m upset I didn’t give poor Todd Zeile some love, however).
Obviously, if I was in the BBWAA I’d not have voted for Lankford. I’d be voting guys like Andre Dawson in, on the back of some spuriously meaningless counting stats and a couple of good years in the 80s.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 8, 2010 11:07 PM EST up reply actions
Copied from original thread
My Vote
Roberto Alomar – Simply a no brainer for me. The best all-around 2B I’ve ever seen. The spitting thing matters very little to me. If Ty Cobb is in, if Juan Marachial is in after braining a guy with a baseball bat, Alomar can get in for spitting on a guy who called him a racist name.
Barry Larkin – If not for Ozzie, Larkin would have a resume that would probably be the gold standard for SS in baseball history.
Edgar Martinez – One of the first ‘DH exclusive’ players. He is 43rd all time in OPS+. 38th in Adjusted Batting Wins. In my book, he’s in.
Harold Baines – I’m going to be honest, I had no idea until last year that Harold Baines WASN’T actually in the HOF. Stuck around way too long and still couldn’t get to the magical 500 HR plateau. Baines is a weak case. I don’t have any empirical reason for voting him in but I figure I’m afforded atleast 1 soft spot vote for the dreaded ‘he looked like a HOF’er’ vote.
Mark McGwire – Steroids or no Steroids, you hit almost 600 HRs…you are a HOF’er.
Fred McGriff – McGriff is a guy who tried to hang around just to reach some magical numbers to ensure his Cooperstown plaque. From his rookie season until his final full season, the guy had a 100+ OPS+ . His career OPS+ of 134 puts him just outside the Top 100, more in the Boog Powell range. Even still, The Crime Dog gets my vote.
Tim Raines – If the best of his career had been played in America, he’d already be in. 5th All-Time in Stolen Bases, everyone ahead of him is in the HOF. Not one dimensional like the next in line Vince Coleman.
Bert Blyleven – This is my Mike Mussina vote. Never won a Cy Young, never got to 300 wins. Bert does have on thing over Moose in that he reached 3,000 strikeouts. Yes, he stuck around FOREVER but we shouldn’t necessarily punish guys for having long careers.
Lee Smith – Before Hoffman and Rivera, he was #1. With the love for closers in the HOF growing, Lee deserves his day. He should have had it 2 years ago.
Don Mattingly – The Keith Hernandez vote. One of the greatest 1B offensively and defensively, for a short period of time. His career was plagued with back injures…much like Mex. Nine Gold Gloves at 1B, only trails Mex. He was an offensive force before the injuries and maintained his defensive dominance after.
Who didn’t get my vote?
Andre Dawson – You steal Ozzie Smith’s MVP, you burn in hell forever.
Dawson is a shinning example of why individual awards DO MATTER. If Dawson doesn’t win that 1987 MVP, his case is severely weakened as being one of the Top 1% All-Time.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 8, 2010 7:36 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
I dunno...
he was a CFer for half his career and, reportedly, a pretty good one. That helps. Still, in terms of value, Edmonds runs rings around Dawson.
Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word
Edmonds didn't play as long but had a much higher peak
For me a HOFer had at least 5 years of baseball were he was straight up dominant. Like 140+ OPS
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 8, 2010 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
It'll be interesting...
to see if the stat-heads rally around Edmonds like they did Blyleven or Raines. He will not get in – doesn’t pass the “feel” test. I can make the case that he was a top 7 maybe top 5 center fielder all time. He was absolutely the best CFer between Mays and Griffey (better than Puckett).
Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word
Maybe not top 5...
Modern era:
Mays
Cobb
Griffey
Mantle
Dimaggio
Snider
Edmonds
His peak was short but sweet… the end came quick… Solid top 10 CFer has to be in.
Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word
How man Gold Gloves did he finish with?
I know that’s not the best thing to look at but I’m sure that won’t stop the writers…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
8 year-olds, dude.
"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5
"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.
by Tudor's Electric Fan on Jan 9, 2010 2:30 AM EST up reply actions
This is what happens
when you find a stranger in the Alps… Worst television edit of a line ever…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
by ducttape16 on Jan 9, 2010 2:32 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Totally agree
but it does add some unintended humor. I laughed so hard at that!
It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great.
It's a helluva peak
from 200-2004 he averaged:
147 GP
102 R
33 2B
36 HR
and
.298. .410 .593 1.003
and I wish they had WAR for 2000& 2001 at Fangraphs, cuz I am too buzzed to go looking elsewhere for them.
and it’s not like the BBWAA cares about anything more than the HR, RBI, & GG.
and how many playoff teams was he on in his career? at least 6. The man has to have a decent shot at the HOF.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
As bad as this sounds
I think that he will be helped out by all the webgem catches he made. I know when someone drops his name in conversation the first thing that pops into my mind is the catch over the wall in Cincy. I’m sure the writers will also remember things like that since I think we’ve established they don’t exactly make HOF selections like the BCS computers rank teams…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
If Dawson is in then Edmonds should be a lock
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jan 8, 2010 8:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I want the whole MV3 in
But I’m biased
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Jan 8, 2010 8:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Of the three
I think Edmonds will have the most difficult time. Jimmy could run them down as well as anyone, but Rolen’s defensive rep is going to carry more weight than #15’s. People make comparisons to Brooks Robinson, Schmidt, etc- that’s heady territory.
It’s a bit of a stretch to think all three will get in, but certainly not impassible.
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 8, 2010 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
Pujols, Rolen, Edmonds
Pujols still needs a couple more years but will get in no doubt if he continues at this pace. Posnanski thinks he should be in already.
Rolen won’t get in ever. Press didn’t like him much and the injuries killed him
Edmonds gets in — writers loved him, always had a good quote. Played in California so he had some media attention. Has all those great web gems. I personally think he is border-line, but I think he has the intangibles to make a run.
Just win
I agree ...
Rolen has pretty much been a non entity since 2007, I think even if he did have a borderline case when his career is over, playing in Toronto and Cincinnati doesnt help him. Personally I think Rolen has about as much of a chance of getting in as Reggie Sanders does.
I think if Pujols didnt play another game from this moment forward he is in (Sandy Koufax clause)
I think Edmonds is borderline, but I agree with other posters, if Dawson is in, Edmonds has to be.
While it would be nice for the 04-05 Cardinals to have 4 HOFers on the team (the 4th being Larry Walker) 3 isnt too shabby.
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 8, 2010 10:55 PM EST up reply actions
I'm in the "Pujols is already in" camp
barring any major scandal, he could pull a Greg Vaughn-esque disappearing act on the field and still be in.
"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5
"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.
by Tudor's Electric Fan on Jan 8, 2010 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
Rolen has a decent chance at getting in
He is probably one of the top 3 defensive Third basemen of all time, and he wasn’t exactly a slouch with the bat for the majority of his career.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I'm with you
no black ink (that I can recall), but certainly had a nice run. He’s still above average with the leather.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 2:28 AM EST up reply actions
league leading offensive stats
which i suppose extends to league leading defensive stats.
i’ll have to see how rolen did in that regard. if not very well then i think we can assume there is something very wrong with defensive stats, if we don’t already.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 2:36 AM EST up reply actions
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 9, 2010 2:37 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If you check out the HoF stats
it adds to Posnanski’s (sp?) case that Albert is already in after next year
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 2:42 AM EST up reply actions
I love those HoF stats
some of them might not be the best, but they sure are interesting. Someone could do a great fanpost, just using those HoF stats to analyze HoF’ers.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Rolen's 2004 season officially qualifies as "ridiculous"
in fact, he was worth almost a full win more than the mang. I think the Hall should start evaluating players by WAP – wins above Pujols. If you’re worth more than Pujols in a given year, then you’re pretty GD good. Of course, this is not universal, otherwise Ben Zobrist would be occupying the Hall, but I’m just saying….I look at Rolen’s 2004 numbers and it is astounding how talented he was at his peak. Makes his downfall due to injury the next year all the more heartbreaking.
when I finish the time machine
I am going back in time to take out both Scott Erickson’s and Hee Seop Choi’s entire family trees.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I'm on board...
let me know if you need some help with that.
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
I really hope Tim Raines and Lee Smith get in
rec’d
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2010 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
+1
Lee Smith taking what seemed like 30 minutes to walk in from the bullpen with a facial expression suggesting he was in pain in every place a human could be in pain… it was somehow funny.
Raines was great. I remember the Cards matching up with the Expos in the 80’s. That was a rough squad. If the division alignment was what it is now, the Expos may have faired much better. I think I’ll look into that. It would be a bit difficult to completely account for because of the unbalanced schedules, but…
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 8, 2010 10:56 PM EST up reply actions
The new, old NL East
The Braves were a special kind of bad outside of the early part of the 80’s
The Phillies, maybe not as bad as the Braves, but basically the same can be said of them
The Marlins didn’t exist
The Mets were dynamite in ’86 and not shabby at all in ’85, so that would present the realigned NL East Expos some problems
Anyway, I think I’ll look at records in the era and given the new, old divisions to see what happens.
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 8, 2010 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
Agree wholeheartedly with the Raines sentiment
I know the Mets were the popular choice of the Cards’ biggest rival of the 80’s, but some of the Expos teams of the 80’s were damned intimidating. Raines, of course, being the centerpiece.
They also were on top of the division during a strike-shortened season, IIRC.
"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5
"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.
by Tudor's Electric Fan on Jan 8, 2010 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
checked it out
The Expos would have been wild card winners in ’80 (90 wins)
They might have gone to win the East in ’81, but who knows how that would have played out
They would have been wild card winners in ’87 (91 wins)
They also had 86 wins in ’82 and 84 wins in ’84
That would mean at least two playoff appearances in the ’80’s and quite possibly three if we include ’81
Not bad
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 12:45 AM EST up reply actions
I should make clear...
that the Expos did make the playoffs in ’81
When I said “might have gone to win the East” I was referring to if the season had not been split in half
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 1:01 AM EST up reply actions
Also
Pee-Wee Herman’s two favorite teams were the Expos and the Yanks.
/high fives self
"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5
"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.
by Tudor's Electric Fan on Jan 9, 2010 1:09 AM EST up reply actions
DH's and stuff
it’s a bit of a tired argument, but if I had an actual HoF vote I don’t think I would ever vote for a DH. Well, I shouldn’t say ever, but it would take Ruthian numbers to swing it for me. Neither Martinez or Baines, while both excellent hitters, and I guess pick up the leather for a bit, could be mistaken for Ruthian.
I really hope Mac gets in eventually, and I’m generally still optimistic, but I am beginning to get worried.
Ray-ray- well… it is a Cards blog.
Alomar not getting in is what really annoys me this year. I’m not wild about Dawson, but I can swallow it as long as he goes in as an Expo.
Edgar Martinez was ridiculously good for such a long time
That if he was a first baseman with horrible and I mean horrible defense that he would be a 1st ballot HOFer no doubt
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 8, 2010 8:04 PM EST up reply actions
IF
if he was a defender for longer than he was, then I suppose I would support his candidacy quite eagerly.
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 8, 2010 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
isn't it possible
that by being a DH he actually gained value?
Some people have their own bowling ball and their own bowling shoes and no friends.
in the same way
the decision to become a prostitute gains one value as a woman.
"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5
"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.
by Tudor's Electric Fan on Jan 9, 2010 1:03 AM EST up reply actions
perhaps
but that depends on how you look at that. If it means that he wasn’t allowed to kick the ball all over the place OR, probably more so in Martinez’s case, he wasn’t getting injured all the time.
Anyway, I’ll stop putting words in your mouth and ask- how exactly do you mean what you imply?
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 1:11 AM EST up reply actions
the fact that he wasn't allowed to be the ancestor of players with defensive numbers like Adam Dunn in the outfield at whatever position the Mariners could have stuck him at
I don’t think playing the field leads to a significant amount of additional injuries, unless you play the left side of the defensive spectrum
Some people have their own bowling ball and their own bowling shoes and no friends.
it's true that most positions don't create many situational injuries
but I think it is worth considering the wear and tear impact on players who are already fragile just by playing every day, even if on the right side. Somewhere in these comments 4stick makes such an argument re: Don Mattingly.
In other words, Martinez was a great hitter, but a nil defensively. Had he fielded a position, that would make him more palatable in my mind, but then I have to wonder if he would have been as good offensively considering how unHoF he was with the stick when he did play the field.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 3:22 AM EST up reply actions
true i could see how playing the field may have led to an earlier retirement
Also, i think E-Mart would have been less than nil defensively at whatever position he played. Because he didn’t field, he contributed more runs to his team, which should be the basis for HOF voting.
Some people have their own bowling ball and their own bowling shoes and no friends.
Actual specified criteria for HoFers
this has been a topic of discussion for as long as I can remember.
I think when the Hall was young, there was no need to do this- Ruth, Cobb, Johnson, etc. It was relatively simple.
But, now that it’s been around for a while, and the game has gone through numerous phases, perhaps some sort of rational breakdown is beneficial.
Maybe it would be a good idea to separate potential HoFers into positional categories instead of throwing them into one big grab bag. Comparing center-fielders, to first basemen, to DH’s, to 3rdBasemen, and so forth…
Each of these positions demands something a little, or in some cases a lot, different. Also, over time, expectations for individual positions has morphed (shortstop, for example). New positions have been created, officially and unofficially (DH and closer).
Maybe the HoF should start considering some sort of categorization to the whole thing.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 3:44 AM EST up reply actions
at the same time
expectations for left, right, 1st, and possibly 3rd haven’t changed since Ruth
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 3:52 AM EST up reply actions
I think voters should just do this automatically when considering the candidates
but there isn’t really a need to separate the HOF like that. A HOFer is an HOFer. You’re either good enough for my HOF or not. Your way of thinking would help get Ken Boyer some more looks, as he was pretty dang good at a position that apparently demands near-perfection, as I remember there being very few 3B’s in the HOF. Unfortunately he’s no longer on the ballot. Veteran’s committee?
Some people have their own bowling ball and their own bowling shoes and no friends.
should have included this as evidence for Boyer
thank you baseballprojection.com
Some people have their own bowling ball and their own bowling shoes and no friends.
Boyer
sure, he stands up real well on that list.
it’s interesting to look through and see who is and isn’t.
I’m sure you noticed that Cards are the only team to have two guys in the top 10- admitting that I can’t remember who Speaker played for and that Hornsby was enshrined as a Card but played for other teams as well.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 4:16 AM EST up reply actions
Bagwell
I know he was great but I was still surprised to see him so high up
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 4:19 AM EST up reply actions
I suppose
The Veteran’s Committee confuses me. I know it’s been recently reorganized. I also know that there was a time in the past when they let all sorts of people in and other times when they were stingy as hell.
Anyway, that would be Boyer’s only chance. If Whitey gets on it, maybe Boyer has a chance.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 4:03 AM EST up reply actions
It has never been simple
It took Joe Dimaggio FOUR times to get in.
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 9, 2010 3:57 AM EST up reply actions
the writers were some hard bastards back then, huh?
but then again, when you look at the luminaries, already in the HoF he would have been compared to, then maybe (MAYBE) it makes a bit more sense. Still his numbers, streak, and New Yorkness would have been enough for the first try, I would have thought.
You remind me of something I’ve thought in the past that I’ve forgot about and it calms me when I think about Bobby Alomar- if you get voted in you get voted in. The plaques don’t say anything about how long you were on the ballot before enshrinement.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 4:01 AM EST up reply actions
plus
his counting stats are a bit lacking. His hit total is good, I think, (around 2200), but I would like to see more homers and RBI from a power hitting DH.
I’ll grant his OPS+ is outstanding, including one year above 180, but- hitters park, no glove… I don’t know, can’t get behind him.
Those mid-90’s Mariners teams were fun to watch though.
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 8, 2010 8:28 PM EST up reply actions
isn't that what the + is for?
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2010 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
brain fart
yeah, my bad.
But, I’m still looking at those counting numbers. They have to count for something… don’t they? A DH with just over 300 homers and under 1500 RBI?
And what about his era (not e.r.a.). I ask because I’m not sure what to make of it in his case. I don’t know if he was ever accused of juicing (I don’t think he was), But I’m curious to hear what people think about his stats given the time period he played in- lots of big offensive numbers.
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 8, 2010 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
lots of big numbers
but his were still among the best.
As for the counting stats, they mean something, but as a hitter he does just about everything that could possibly cause him to be underrated by counting stats. He walked a ton, and nobody keeps track of walks or adjusts for the decline in hits relative to batting average compared to a guy like, say, andre dawson; he hit a lot of doubles, and nobody counts doubles; and his career wasn’t quite as long as it looks at first glance.
Don’t get me wrong—I had to think about including him on my ballot for a while. His literal inability to play another position, due to his fragility, means that his teams were less flexible than others, and he doesn’t have a ton of black ink for a guy who’s getting there on his bat alone. But that seven year stretch where his averages were .329/.446/.574 with 40 doubles and 30 home runs—I couldn’t turn that down.
Yeah, I see your point
but on the whole it only increases my appreciation for Albert more than increasing my support for Martinez.
Just below 4stik (looks cooler that way) makes a good comparative argument.
I begin to wonder- does greatness based on avoidance of one of the basic elements of the game (Martinez) get extended to people who would have been monsters if in the same situation (Mattingly), or those who do one very well, and potentially better if put in the right situation, and the other very poorly (Bay)?
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 1:51 AM EST up reply actions
To many consider DHing almost cheating
So they have zero sway in players that DHed in their claim to the Hall of Fame. But my point of view they did the best job possible they could under the rules they were given and I don’t think it fair to judge these players so harshly.
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 9, 2010 2:32 AM EST up reply actions
About DHs
I’ve always felt that they should be looked upon as equals. They were exploiting a rule to their advantage. I don’t see how you can keep someone out by playing by the rules they were subject to at the time. This is my argument too for steroid players…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
agreed about the DH
there is no justification for being so hard on them. They did what their teams asked of them, why hold it against them? With players like Martinez, I think it is a near given that they could have been hidden defensively and still been worthy of the Hall, so I don’t think its fair to exclude them.
I'm pretty sure
there are several Hall members who have been hidden on defense… probably a majority of the 1B for starters…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
I think the question isn't whether or not they could have been hidden
but rather whether or not they would have performed with the bat as well as they did if you add the grind of playing the field every day, even if at a potentially low impact position like 1st.
I am swayed by the “did what the team asked/them’s the rules they were playing under” argument.
On the other hand, I think to myself, why not start putting really good middle relievers in? Maybe they would have been really bad starters, but their teams didn’t ask that of them and the state of the game at this time says teams need middle relievers.
Is that different?
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 2:51 AM EST up reply actions
Is there any reason
middle relievers shouldn’t get in?
I have always felt that you should be able to walk off a spaceship, and into the Hall of Fame of any sport and by the time you walk out have a passing idea of what the sport was about and who the best at that sport were through out the history of the sport. Since middle relief has become a very important part of the game why shouldn’t the best middle relievers of their time be getting in? They are necessary to win games the way it’s played now. So why not put some of them in? I know that they’ll never match up to the Koufaxs, Fellers, and Gibsons of the game, but they are an important part of the story. Same goes with closers. However it appears there is a bit of support behind closers and they’ll start getting in with time.
The middle relief argument could also be used for the DHs.
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
I haven't ever considered middle relievers entering the HoF before
but the reason I brought them up is that I think we both know that the HoF voters haven’t considered them…probably at all…not even in passing.
I agree with your assessment of closers. Some have made it in already and like you I suspect more are soon to come in the next 10-15 years.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 3:14 AM EST up reply actions
I think middle relief and DH
are two positions that are stigmatized by the writers. Similar to the ‘true Cardinal or Yankee or whoever’ nonsense I think those positions aren’t considered true baseball players. They don’t play the game the right way because they specialize at one thing. However there are a lot of ‘true ball players’ who are in for doing one thing really well… Now I’m just starting to get frustrated.
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
Middle relievers to me does not equal DH
A DH plays a lot more than a middle reliever. Plus, a middle reliever is a sub class of a ‘closer’. If a middle reliever was hall of famer he would be a closer or at least behind an epic closer. Like Trevor Hoffman was 8th inning guy for Marino Rivera.
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 9, 2010 3:26 AM EST up reply actions
This gets back
to what I was trying to convey earlier, but may not have said correctly of is there a certain level of greatness across all baseball to get in. Or a certain level of greatness for your position relative to the time you played to get in. That’s a philosophical discussion that both sides could make valid points for and will probably never get solved, but one that I think as a voter you have to consider when filling out that ballot. If you decide it’s a certain level of greatness all time then there’s no way middle relief will ever get in.
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
yeah
I advocated something in response to the dialogue we’re having above
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 3:46 AM EST up reply actions
something similar
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 3:49 AM EST up reply actions
well, I think that DH's are going to lose the stigma you mention
long before middle relievers will (if they ever do) if for no other reason than offensive numbers are sexier than any other stat, which the possible exception of pitching wins, strikeouts, and era.
When it comes to one dimensional players, even if they were great with the bat, and not good with the glove, I think the general idea is that they went out there and played both sides anyway. One of the biggest differences between baseball and football- in theory, the only big division in skill sets in baseball is between every day players and pitchers.
re:frustration- kick a puppy
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 3:28 AM EST up reply actions
if you are an awesome middle reliever
why aren’t you a closer? unless your manager is awesome enough to employ the bullpen ace method. The best relievers should get in, just as the best starters should get in, and the best position players should get in and it is up to each individual to decide where the line for best stops.
Some people have their own bowling ball and their own bowling shoes and no friends.
You're assuming he could have stayed healthy
On that note, Don Mattingly would like a word.
Had Mattingly DH’d from his 5th season on, he’s probably a no doubt HOF player by your rules here, because his bat was awesome, but his back just didn’t hold up to playing everyday.
Martinez was banged up nearly his entire first four seasons in the big leagues, didn’t really hit very well either, then moved to DH full time and took off on a fantastic 9 year stretch. I’m not sure he does that playing 1B, to be totally honest.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
From '82 to '87
Donnie Baseball carried an OPS+ of 150. He started having back troubles in the ‘88 season and it would plague him for the rest of his career, but the Yankees weren’t obliged to DH him because he was such a great defensive first baseman.
He played 150 games only three more times in his career, battling his back before finally calling it quits in 1995, one year before the Yankees run of 4 straight titles starter.
So, not only might he have extended his career by DHing, he’d most likely have more homers than Martinez, a similar OPS+, and 3 or 4 rings on his fingers as well. In a similar light, JIm Thome hasn’t been able to field a defensive position going on 4 years now, but he’s been able to extend his career by DHing, which has allowed him to get to 500 homers and put himself into Hall of Fame contention. Mattingly just retired, having battled for nearly 8 full seasons and not wishing to play another 4 years as a DH.
It’s not enough to say, “Well, they’d just hide him at another position”. They probably would, but considering that Martinez wasn’t the same hitter as a position player that he was as a DH, that rings into question whether his numbers would be the same if he had to play a position for those nine years.
As I’ve said time and again, it totally comes down to how you feel about the DH position itself. You can make an argument for or against those players being in the HOF, and they’re both good arguments and both arguments have a lot of merit.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
isn't there a line of thinking
(promulgated most recently by tom tango, I think?) that DHs in general hit worse as designated hitter than they do in the field? Mattingly had a great peak but I don’t think his injury problems are comparable to Martinez’s, because they had an obvious and severe impact on his bat. No amount of DHing was going to cure George Sisler’s double vision.
I just went to CNN/SI's MLB page to see what was going on there
and was surprised to see Danny Glover posing as Andre Dawson. Damn! They look almost completely alike from that angle.
glad i'm not the only one who sees this
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
Resident malcontented betamale
by slu on Jan 8, 2010 9:05 PM EST up reply actions
I didn't vote, but I think this is a pretty good result.
I assume VEB will elect Raines and Larkin next year.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Not that it has anything to do with this post...
but mlbtraderumors is back up in China!!! Yay!!!!!
My excitement is tempered by the fact that the major off-season moves are done and this development effects… well, probably just me.
Let’s hear it for minor victories!
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 8, 2010 9:47 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Well now we're banned in China...
good job rat
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
it's easy when you're big in japan
"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5
"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.
by Tudor's Electric Fan on Jan 9, 2010 2:01 AM EST up reply actions
not yet
but all the sudden I can’t access imdb.com for some reason.
Just when you think you’re out, they pull you back in
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 2:06 AM EST up reply actions
I think I'd put up with that for about 3 weeks
then move back…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
That hot bed of subversive material...
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
maybe they're just having server problems
but I’ve been having problems with it all day
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 2:56 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe but this is where I read about it
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 9, 2010 2:57 AM EST up reply actions
ahhhhh shit
yeah, that tears it. they’re probably blocked (which usually means at least 6 months). that’s exactly the sort of thing they watch out for.
It’s strange though. I can get rottentomatoes and boxofficemojo. Well, actually, it isn’t that strange. There is very little reason why some sites are blocked, while others that would have the same info are left alone.
Hotmail has been blocked before, but never yahoo. bbc.com was blocked for about a year, but no other brit or american news sites, etc, etc, etc
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 3:06 AM EST up reply actions
or better yet
I can’t get imdb, but I can access a whole slew of articles from who can say how many sources saying it’s blocked and even saying why.
They say sing while you slave but I just get bored
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 3:09 AM EST up reply actions
Lankford
What is with the minute showing of votes for #16… A VEB hall-o-famer for sure!
60% of the time, it works EVERY time
Maybe a VEB Cardinals HoF vote is called for
maybe danup/editors could even manage some sort of banner displaying the numbers or something on the home page.
That would be cool.
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 8, 2010 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
Don't blame me
I turned in a blank ballot. Take that, player appreciation!
"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5
"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.
by Tudor's Electric Fan on Jan 8, 2010 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
I can't properly persecute individuals without the ballots being released
and if you could insert their avatars, I’d appreciate it.
Think; It's not illegal yet.
OK, I admit it...
I voted for Skip as least sexy Cardinal 2009.
I know I had it coming. Ban away….
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 8, 2010 11:10 PM EST up reply actions
What if he borrowed some of Jimmy Baseball's mascara?
Or had JD Drew highlights in his hair?
"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5
"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.
by Tudor's Electric Fan on Jan 8, 2010 11:15 PM EST up reply actions
Wouldn't that require
ummmm hair?
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
never forget.
"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5
"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.
by Tudor's Electric Fan on Jan 9, 2010 2:06 AM EST up reply actions
Not nice to photoshop things
to make me look like a jackass… But honestly when did he have hair?
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
in my heart?
always.
"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5
"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.
by Tudor's Electric Fan on Jan 9, 2010 2:09 AM EST up reply actions
I can't figure out the total lack of disrespect for Galarraga.
I don’t think he deserves to be in by no means but only one time on the ballot is criminal. Here’s how his stats line up with Rice’s.
Galarraga- 2333/399/1425 (H/HR/RBI)
Rice- 2452/382/1451
And for the meaningful stats.
Galarraga- .288/.347/.499 ops+ 118
Rice- .298/.352/.482 ops+ 128
He’s also better than Dawson in the meaningful stats. I can’t see how there is enough difference that Rice is a HOFer and Galarraga can’t even garner up 5% of the vote. Unbelievable.
While I don't like
the “player x is in the Hall, player y should be in by comparison” argument for candidacy, I have to agree that Galarraga should at the very least be in higher consideration. This idea’s got legs, I hope your sentiment catches on.
"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5
"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.
by Tudor's Electric Fan on Jan 8, 2010 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think he should be in at all.
I just think less than 5% of the vote is laughable, when guys like Rice and Dawson are elected.
So...
you’re making the point that 95% of the voters shouldn’t agree with you?
"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5
"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.
by Tudor's Electric Fan on Jan 8, 2010 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
big cat deserved more votes for sure
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2010 11:44 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, I don't get it either
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 8, 2010 11:43 PM EST up reply actions
Because Colorado and Montreal
among other ain’t Boston…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
No.
I’m saying that if I was a voter and I thought that Jim Rice deserved my vote, then I would also have to give Galarraga serious consideration. Their numbers are very similiar.
Galararaga sure had on off year when he was in StL though
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2010 12:01 AM EST up reply actions
He was Tino Martinez before Tino Martinez was Tino Martinez
by Scarecrow7775 on Jan 9, 2010 1:35 AM EST up reply actions
indeed
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 9, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
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