HOF Thread
by azruavatar on Jan 6, 2010 12:43 PM EST
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PrintAs requested, the HOF announcement comes today at 1 EST/12CST. The ballot is:
- Roberto Alomar
- Kevin Appier
- Harold Baines
- Bert Blyleven
- Ellis Burks
- Andre Dawson
- Andres Galarraga
- Pat Hentgen
- Mike Jackson
- Eric Karros
- Ray Lankford
- Barry Larkin
- Edgar Martinez
- Don Mattingly
- Fred McGriff
- Mark McGwire
- Jack Morris
- Dale Murphy
- Dave Parker
- Tim Raines
- Shane Reynolds
- David Segui
- Lee Smith
- Alan Trammell
- Robin Ventura
- Todd Zeile
Sometimes I wonder if VEB sticks around the next 15 years how current commenters/authors will be viewed in HOF terms. Then I realize how self-indulgent that is and I go back to my day job.
Also, Bert Blyleven needs to be elected. N E E D S. That is all.
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Alomar oughta be a shoe-in given this class, no?
I honestly don’t know what Blyleven has to do to get in, if it doesn’t happen this year.
Future VEB HOF voters will say
“jd is legend doesn’t deserve in. It’s the hall of fame, not the hall of puns, one-liners, and general humorless filler”
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
If SBN kept track of RAR (recs above replacement) this kind of analysis would be much easier
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
but.... but...
the guy is a LEGEND! Just look at his gritty NAME!
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 7, 2010 6:27 AM EST up reply actions
Alomar or Bust
I’m hoping for an Alomar so Mitchell & Ness will release an Orioles throwback. I’m selfish that way.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 6, 2010 12:53 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Plotting murder?
Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word
Guess the order?
I’m an inveterate gambler…
Blyleven
--75%——-
Dawson
Alomar
Larkin
Morris
Lee Smith
Raines
McGriff
McGwire
Advanced stats hit the mainstream…
Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word
Flip..
Bly and Dawson, flip Larkin and Morris, insert Martinez, delete the last sentence.
Pretty decent showing if I do say so myself…
Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word
FWIW, I don't think the announcement is made until 1 CST
The announcement show starts at noon, but they’re apparently going to dick around for an hour.
That's ok
I plan on dicking around for an hour too!
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 6, 2010 1:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Why can't they just...
do it like the crop report in trading places?
No nonsense…
Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word
Just turned on WWL
Timmy K was on, only caught the tail end of his list and it actually seemed decent from what I heard. Then I heard him defend a pick based on Silver Slugger Awards and had to immediately turn it off.
Blyleven
Is it wrong to want him in just because his is the only MLB autograph I have? He and the KMOX batgirl signed my popcorn container in July of 1978.
Wait, I mean, his numbers are great. He should be in the hall for that, yeah.
I used to be into Autographs a lot more when I was younger
Now I don’t know what to do with my Bernard Gilkey autographed ball.
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 6, 2010 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
Sell it for CA$H!!!!
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
The Ball is in good condition
I am not sure if the autograph hurts or adds value to it
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 6, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
I'm sure if you find
someone who was a huge mid 90s Cards fan you could get at least 3 or 4 bucks out of it…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
So
Your saying that the autograph hurts the value of the ball, as a new baseball will set you back $6-9 retail.
go to cash4autographs.com
send me the ball and I will send you back an appropriate amount of money.
by brackenthebox on Jan 6, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
I have a Tom Lawless autographed photo
It’s my only piece of autographed memorabilia that I can think of.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Lost my baseball signed by Lou Brock
years and years and years ago. I cried for days.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 6, 2010 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
No, it's wrong to support his candidacy because...
… it will encourage other players not in the Hall to whine and moan every year to everyone who will listen until the writers finally elect them.
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
Huh?
Blyleven never whines and moans about not being in the Hall of Fame. It’s the rest of us who think it’s an absolute travesty that he’s NOT in the HOF because he better than a lot of pitchers who ARE in the Hall of Fame.
I don’t know where you get off calling Blyleven whiny, that’s the furthest thing from the truth. You want to talk about whiners, let’s talk about Pete Rose for a while.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Cub fans pining for Santo is insufferable
maybe electing Dawson will shut them up a bit.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
He was just on TV,
and didn’t whine at all. He’s disappointed, wouldn’t you be? I know I would, especially when my peers all seem to think that I should be in, and the public thinks that I should be in, and the statheads all think that I should be in.
If anyone on that list has something to complain about it’s Blyleven, so even if he was bitching I couldn’t blame him. But he’s not. Get off your soapbox.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
He sounds fine today because he knows it's inevitable now
But he has made the circuit the last five years or so telling everyone who would listen that he deserved to be in the HOF and it was a travesty that he wasn’t (aka, whining.)
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
I think you just hate Bert Blyleven
I’ve met him and seen him speak at various card shows over the last 5-6 years and I’ve never seen him whine or moan about not being in the HOF. He seems like a very gracious individual and someone who not only represents the character that the HOF is looking for, but also had a fantastic career to go with it.
The only reason he’s NOT in the HOF is because he doesn’t have 300 wins, which we all know is a really bullshit way to measure pitchers.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I don't hate him at all, but clearly someone in this conversation is carrying some heavy bias
So because the various isolated times you have been around him he wasn’t whining about not being in the HOF means it has never happened?
With all due respect to you and your BFF Bert, I don’t think I am the one on the soapbox.
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
Since when is this "whining"
Thank you for allowing me to state my case. I know a lot of the voters never saw me pitch, after all I haven’t thrown one since 1992. And that’s fine, I don’t have a problem with the way the system is set up. All I ask is that the voters do their homework. Don’t look just at my wins and losses, but look at all of my numbers. Look at innings pitched and strikeouts. Look at walks and WHIP. Look at shutouts and complete games. See where I stack up against pitchers from my era, especially those already in Cooperstown.
It has been a long wait, and I could easily end up continuing to wait. But one thing that has been rewarding to me is when I run into great Hall of Fame pitchers like Bob Feller or Tom Seaver and they tell me to be patient and that my time is coming. It means a lot to me when my peers come to me and bring it up, offering words of encouragement.
The pitchers who are already in the Hall of Fame know how hard it is to win a ballgame. How hard it is to put together a career like I have.
Who knows, maybe 13 will be a lucky number for me.
That sounds like a guy stating his case and he’s been given the forum to do so. Nothing in that article isn’t based in fact or appealing to his body of work.
Whining? Go look at Ron Santo, Pete Rose, and others who incessantly bitch about not being in the HOF even though they don’t have the body of work to merit induction. That’s whining, this is making a well thought out case.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Pete Rose has the body of work to merit induction
It’s the other stuff that’s kept him out
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
I would say being banned from the game for life
would qualify as part of his “body of work” actually.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Complaining to the media every year = whining, accept it
And you think Blyleven has the “body of work” but Pete Rose doesn’t?
LOL. OK, you got me. I didn’t realize I was being punk’d from the start. Good one, Ashton.
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
can we just knock this shit off right now?
you are gonna call him names, he is gonna return the favor, and then I am gonna have to get my fucking flags out.
Damn it Tackle Box, I am gonna have to borrow some flags after today.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
No worries
I try not to resort to calling names around here. Too much of that going on already.
There’s not much more to add to this conversation anyway. fourstick has hung out with Blyleven and Bert was cool to him, so he feels the need to defend his honor. Blyleven’s lobbying/campaigning (or as I call it, “whining,”) for induction strikes me as unbecoming. He and I will never see eye to eye because of the personal stake fourstick feels he has in the matter, so there’s no point in continuing the debate…
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
Dude.
Usually, saying
There’s not much more to add to this conversation anyway.
means you don’t immediately follow it up with shots about the other guy’s bias.
by arch support on Jan 7, 2010 10:04 AM EST up reply actions
"Shots"?
Where were the “shots”? I followed that comment with an explanation of why we don’t see eye to eye. fourstick said he had hung out with Blyleven – how is repeating that considered a “shot”?
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
Implying that the only reason fourstick could possibly disagree with you
is that he has a “personal stake” in the matter.
And that fourstick feels “the need to defend his [Blyleven’s] honor”.
This is not magnanimously closing the conversation. It’s accusing the other person of being incapable of overcoming bias.
And you’ve made me defend fourstick. Which, blech.
by arch support on Jan 7, 2010 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
Well, sorry I wasn't clearer
We each have our biases which will make it impossible to agree so there’s no point in continuing the discussion.
Is that better?
Blyleven’s still a whiner.
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
he doesn't complain to the media
he calls them what they are. a bunch of pity vindictive assholes with an ax to grind.
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
SBN will encounter a snafu in 2012 and erase all its archives.
…no, seriously, I’ve seen several sites go that way. mods, if you do anything this year, please back up the site. I’m begging. If SBN doesn’t have a way, there are are other places that can grab the pages themselves. Including the ones mysteriously not listed from the Archives pages.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
The Mayan calendar
Same thing that made the Cards sign Holliday to a seven-year deal.
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
well to pick an example at random
you ever have a Geocities page?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
try finding it.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
well i moved on to real web pages
and anyways that just got deleted not that long ago. Plus, SBN actually has a business model. They are smarter than you think they are and comparing them to geocities is a rather poor example.
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 6, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
I've seen a lot of places with "good business models" go down
besides, the overall load of the site is not that much, even going back a few years. it can’t hurt anything to have an actual offsite copy in someone’s basement.
all it takes is one earthquake to fuck all the business models. Cardinals baseball >>>> faith in internet.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I have actually talked to their IT people here
They are a lot smarter than you think. They backup their own servers. What would backing up really do? You couldn’t save the comments.
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 6, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
yes, you can
look, I’m not casting aspersions on their IT people. but I’ve seen teams who are just as smart, just as prepared have their data put in jeopardy through circumstances beyond their control.
and wtf, can’t save comments? that’s bull. I can save comments on no-brainer free websites in less than half an hour, on accounts that are easily the size of VEB.
again, who is it killing to have an offsite backup?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I mean you could save the comments system
Just not the comment system ie the “Z button”
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 6, 2010 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
well, that's not what I'm talking about.
I’m talking about the data. I’ve run into this problem before — with data that’s barely five, maybe ten years old. Entire communities and their social goings-on, gone. As much as we have faith in the IT team right now, you really want to stake it on them 10 years from now? 20? 30? Will they be searchable? Accessible? Will the people who put the site together have access to the data?
I wouldn’t give a crap if there weren’t things on VEB that aren’t anywhere else. There are arguments going on right now because people are misconstruing things that happened months ago, much less years.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
If I care what anyone posted on here 20 years from now
I probably have bigger personal issues to fry than whether or not I can access that information.
Not afraid to nitpick
that's bull
this is baseball. we care about what happened a 100 years ago.
are we pathetic for caring about some kid’s shoe that Babe Ruth signed, where you can’t even read the signatures anymore?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
let me put it this way
do you want the only memories of this decade in Cardinals baseball to be the P-D forums?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Ha
I think SBNation will probably make it longer than the PD Forums
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 6, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
I don't care one bit about that either
The memories are in my head, not on some server. If everything in VEB history got wiped out right now, I’d think “that’s too bad, I don’t get to gloat about wanting to pick up Ben Zobrist, but then again there’s no proof I ever liked the Kip Wells signing so whatever”.
Not afraid to nitpick
we can't even last a few weeks without this being a problem.
There are arguments going on right now because people are misconstruing things that happened months ago, much less years.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
then you don't have a dog in this hunt
why object to it?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Because it doesn't matter?
If SBN has backups, alright fine, if not, what’s the difference? An anonymous internet argument about the merits of a 6 year vs. 7 year deal become more complicated?
Not afraid to nitpick
and my argument is it *does* matter
you’re trusting guys like Strauss to come back and say the fan’s reaction was so-and-so, and make a mint selling his unicorn-free books. you’re trusting them with the history of what’s going on right now.
I know you don’t think it matters. but believe me, if you’re trying to find archives from 20 years ago, and there’s revisionist “history” prevailing in the present, the raw, instantaneous data is invaluable. who are we to say if it matters or not? it just happened. we just typed it. we’re in no position to evaluate.
but trust me, there are gonna be guys kicking themselves that they didn’t screenshot Twitter hashtags because 1) they didn’t think it was important, 2) it turned out to be the only relevant snapshot at the time.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
If none of that stuff matters
than why do we have the Library of Congress? Why do all newspapers archive their daily’s as well as their classified ads? It’s an enormous expense, but keeping track of the record of history is important, so that we can have some frame of reference to show our children and grandchildren some day.
I, for instance, would love to put together a virtual VEB scrapbook for my future son of all of our Fanposts and main page posts concerning how great Albert Pujols is. He’ll probably never get to see him play, but I’d sure like the opinions of others to show him Cardinal history outside of my frame of reference.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Okay, I checked that out... pretty danged cool
Posting here cuz posting in a 5 year old thread is useless :)
I found this blog a couple years ago and have been an interested lurker since then. But I checked out the archive and how amazingly cool…
I read the first post from lboros on there and his first comment gave me freaking chills…
The best band to never make it HAS to have been Missouri. Back in 1981 or 82 (I was 12 or so) my best friend’s brother went to Jonesboro AR to catch REO Speedwagon on their tour supporting Hi Infidelity. Len came back from the concert with Welcome Two Missouri, as Missouri was the opening act. We listened and immediately fell in love with this band.
Well, we grew up and the album went out of print. Len is now dean of the buisiness college at ASU I think.. he’s head of some department that has something to do with accounting). and my only access to this album was a Realistic C-60 tape that we made by placing a tabletop tape recorder in front of one of the Pioneer speakers and turning it really really loud.
Great album. I bought the “Best of Missouri” CD when I stumbled on it in Springfield, and downloaded poor rips of the rest of the Welcome Two Missouri songs from their website. Man I wish they would release that album as a whole on CD.
Anyway, sorry for the diversion, and lboros may or may not ever see this, but Thanks man.
Baseball Fever....WPS!
Cool.. Thanks
Is it irony or coincidence that a regional band has a CD that’s an import?
Coming Down The Hill With A Picturesque View. That’s a pretty damned good title. I can kinda relate. Will have to buy the mp3 album.
Baseball Fever....WPS!
Newspapers last forever
I’ll regret this forever.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 6, 2010 9:05 PM EST up reply actions
all the html is already backed up in quite a few places (such as the wayback machine)
and you’re not gonna be able to host SBN yourself if the company goes under, so I don’t think there’s much to be done that hasn’t already to prepare for an SBN collapse.
If SBN doesn’t have there own offsite backups to guard against a server splosion, I’d be shocked.
by brackenthebox on Jan 6, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
see above
and I have primitive freeware that backs up and allows me to search blogs, including their comments. Offline. Is this an option for SBN blogs?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I can't imagine why you couldn't do this with something like wget if you wanted
the total SBN archive can’t be that big
by brackenthebox on Jan 6, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
exactly.
so, what’s the problem?
why resist backing it up?
here’s my thing, and I’ll leave it be because wtf BBWAA. we’re assuming that SBN can and has backed up the data. great! what if SBN gets bought out and the new company says everything we’ve posted on here belongs to them? what if a new law in California (or wherever the servers are) puts in new obscenity laws and/or the Supreme Court says content sites are subject to government regulation?
there are too many fungible things with networks. we don’t have anything to worry about in the next ten years. but why have archives that are finally, finally searchable and accessible, and then not back them up?
you’ll all laugh until the baseball historians show up from the future and shoot all of us with their ray guns.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
deletions aren't the real fear
it’s when they modify the archives and then convict you using the archives as evidence. And then execute you with their ray guns.
by brackenthebox on Jan 6, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
don't forget the hovercars.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I was promised jetpacks.
I want my jetpack, dammit, and I want it now.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 6, 2010 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
So I have been thinking
With Holliday now on the team for 7 years. That pretty much means we are stuck with LaRussa for awhile. He has had a man crush on Holliday for so long and now has nothing to bitch about for awhile.
I tried to warn you people yesterday
I don’t wanna hear anyone whining when we have 75 YO LaRussa on the bench.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
TLR suffering from dimentia....
the possibilities are endless…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
I for one am excited to see the lineup when his dementia kicks in
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 6, 2010 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
Get me Honus Wagner, Cap Anson, Mordecai Brown, Gabby Street, Pie Traynor, Harry Hooper, Nap Lajoie, Joe Jackson, and Jim Creighton!
by notmorganfreeman on Jan 6, 2010 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
hopefully he will be better at managing than the last 2 seasons
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 6, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
Bobby Knight talking HOF on wwl
talking about shooting umpires. huzzah?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
only if the umps get to shoot back.
bobby knight v. umps shootout? everybody wins.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
cage match would have a chair, y/n?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Bob Knight vs. Matt Holliday
think about your future as a player, son!
you tell ’em, bobby.
also, as annoying as Ravech is, he was asking some prickly questions. he’s got balls, if not brains.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Wow. Sabremetrics loses.
Only Andre Dawson?
Wow.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 6, 2010 2:02 PM EST reply actions
Silver lining
At least Blyleven gets in next year, probably.
Shockingly low numbers for Alomar.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 6, 2010 2:03 PM EST reply actions
indeed
the BBWAA is truly a joke.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Bollucks
We’d (seemingly) made so much progress in the Cy and MVP votes.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
well we're the nameless, unwashed masses
let’s do what we do and find their names.
kick them out.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
It's very strange...
I was watching this MLB.com broadcast and they said Roberto Alomar and I got the tweet on my phone from Bob Nightengale saying Robbie Alomar. How weird.
by mynameistyler on Jan 6, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
they are saying something like 74.3 % for Alomor
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
You would think
Although there’s a chance that some BBWAA blowhard assholes don’t think that any players on the list merit induction on the “first ballot” and that the second ballot guys shouldn’t get in anyway, so they just left their’s blank. Only a bunch of total douchbags would do this, but hell, we’re talking about the BBWAA aren’t we?
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Strong first year showing by Edgar...
Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word
Steady as she goes for McGwire - 23.7% of the vote
Blyleven was soooo close – he got 400 votes but needed 404.
405 is what they said on MLB Net. Needed 5 more votes.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 6, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
404/539 = 74.954%. Those heartless bastards won't even round up that tiny amount? Sheesh.
Can you imagine getting 404 and being told you were 0.046% short? Talk about going nuclear…
by BTown Birds fan on Jan 6, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Lankford was shut out :(
Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word
Man I wish I had the MLB Network
the WWL wasn’t toolsy enough, they had to add Bobby Valentine?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
They had to keep their ex-Met factor intact
Lose Steve Phillips, gain Bobby V
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
I think today is the first day since the playoffs that I have watched ESPN
I totally forgot about Phillips getting fired. Geez, I hope this doesn’t mean Valentine might be in the booth with Jon & Joe next season.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I can't imagine being Tim Raines
“We played on the same effing team and I was better than him what does it effing take”
Not afraid to nitpick
corrected
Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word
Hard to Imagine Alomar Didn't Get in....
Was it the spitting? Really?? I hope not, that would be major cow floppage…
:=8/
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
why didn't they vote?
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 6, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
its probably the same asshole that left Carp off the Cy Young ballot
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 6, 2010 9:40 PM EST up reply actions
I mean
I woulda voted for them… Lee Smith, Lee Smith, Lee Smith, Lee Smith, Tim Raines
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 6, 2010 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
The role of advanced metrics to determine HOF votes
What do you guys think? I used advanced stats to try to determine how a player is likely to perform in the future and to give a somewhat context neutral barometer to see how good an individual player is.
What do you think the role of advanced stats should be in determining who gets into the HOF? Should traditional stats such as win total and ERA+ be given more weight than FIP and tra? ERA determines what the pitcher actually did, not what he should have done or should do based on context neutral performance. The same with RBI’s…terrible measure of a player’s true talent level, but it measures what the player actually did. After all, isn’t that what the HOF is actually about?
I don’t know, just thought it would be an interesting discussion. Btw, can’t believe the Andre Dawson selection—terrible. On second thought, yes I do.
But they don't
ERA measures what the pitcher AND his defense did, RBI measures what the hitter AND the hitters in front of him did. There are certain guys (Glavine) who you can pretty much throw out FIP on, but then there’s guys like Vazquez who have played in front of craptacular defenses (although he still has underperformed his FIPs even accounting for that) who are getting punished for their teams.
Not afraid to nitpick
I know.
I guess it boils down to whether an individual player should be punished because of the team that surrounds him. Intuitively, you would have to say that it should not be this way.
He's not being "punished"
If a pitcher has the fortune of playing on amazing defense teams, give me ONE reason why he should get credit for that? ERA is NOT a pitching statistic – it’s a pitching PLUS defense statistic – that is the fundamental misunderstanding.
Even if you use ERA, Bert deserves to be in by a longshot.
I never said that should be the case.
Also, I’m neither an advocate of ERA—not by a longshot—nor do I have any “misunderstanding”. Just starting a discussion.
I would think that they should look at both types of stats
but I’m not even sure what they are looking at
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 6, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
So you're ok with holding Raines out of the HOF
because he didn’t drive in a lot of runs…….even though he was a leadoff hitter and generally had the pitcher and the team’s worst hitter hitting in the two spots ahead of him? Not too many leadoff guys ever drive in more than 80 runs unless they play on a wicked offense and in the AL where the pitcher doesn’t have to hit. They SCORE a lot of runs and Raines did this throughout his career, but even that has something to do with the hitters behind him in the lineup.
You can’t measure personal performance based on statistics that involve the production of other players. That is what the advanced metrics try to determine by assigning a certain amount of “runs” to certain individual events based on game histories over a long period of time. This way you can see how many runs a player actually created individually rather than relying on counting statistics like RBI’s and Runs that can be more dependent on the team the player plays for than the player himself.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
No I'm not OK with that.
I don’t get how anyone can think I am advocating keeping anyone in or out of the HOF based on arbitrary counting stats.
You said in your 2:37 post
that RBIs “measure what the player actually did.” Then you immediately followed that by saying “isn’t that what the HOF is actually about?” It doesn’t seem like much of a stretch to interpret that as you advocating the use of RBIs for judging who deserves to be in the HOF.
by BTown Birds fan on Jan 6, 2010 7:14 PM EST up reply actions
Ah, ok. Poor wording and unclear.
I was just trying to be a devil’s advocate and give one side of an argument in the hope of starting a discussion.
Well, the whole reason we have advanced stats is to delegate responsibility
If Rasmus hit’s a triple and Yadi hits a sac fly, they each get “1” point (RBI or Run). However, Rasmus clearly did more to earn that run than Yadi did
Didn't mean to sound snippy (sorry)
you got to the heart of the matter. Which is exactly the type of discussion I was trying to start, i.e., the philosphical underpinings of advanced statistics and the role that plays (or lack thereof) in HOF voting
Another tragic year for HOF voting....
- Dawson gets in, and I don’t think he’s in the top five that merit induction of the eligibles.
- How does Barry Larkin not get in? How does he not get at least 60% of the vote? Apparently being the best SS of your generation doesn’t mean dick to the voters.
- How does Barry Larkin get 51% of the vote and Alan Trammell get only 22%? They’re almost identical players if you’re looking at counting stats!!! (We all know the BBWAA voters don’t look at those nerd stats…)
- Blyleven, ::deep breath::, WTF?
- Alomar I can sort of understand, considering the holier than thou distinction bestowed on first ballot HOF players. Still, he wasn’t blackballed in this nature because he only fell a few votes short. If they’re blackballing somebody……
- ….they do what they’re doing to Mark McGwire. It will be interesting to see how Bonds and Clemens are handled, that’s for sure.
- Tim Raines needs a publicist. He also needs to go back in time and get the Expos a publicist for the first 10 years of his career. He was twice the player Dawson was, yet is going to end up on the outside looking in.
I really do think that guys like A-Rod ruined the HOF for guys like Trammell. He’ll never get in because he didn’t hit enough home runs as a SS, when most SS don’t hit a lot of home runs. It’s a political mess and guys like Alan Trammell will always get screwed for being a top 3 player at their position in a crappy offensive era.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
by fourstick on Jan 6, 2010 2:46 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
btb has done tremendous work on the HOF ballot.
i think there’s a great case to be made that dawson was the seventh best position player on the ballot this year. alomar, trammell, and larkin had very strong cases to be made for them. mcgwire and edgar both had good cases but each had a non-trivial if subjective objections to be made to their cases (PEDs for mac, DHing for edgar).
i don’t see why dawson should enter above blyleven, trammell, alomar, or larkin, certainly. martinez, mcgwire and raines should arguably deserve a spot before dawson.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
as much as I dislike Bonds
he should be in the HOF without a doubt
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 6, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
just curious
how was Trammell’s D?
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 6, 2010 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
Larkin's first Ballot, I don't mind that he doesn't get in
He got 50+%, so he’ll be in soon.
Bert deserves to get in. Raines and Trammel and Mac both deserve to be MUCH higher. Jack Morris sholud be lower.
Andres Galarraga
Robin Ventura
Ellis Burks
Eric Karros
Kevin Appier
Pat Hentgen
David Segui
Mike Jackson
Ray Lankford
Shane Reynolds
Todd Zeile
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
These are players who are not eligible next year
They didn’t get at least 5% of the vote.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
i would of thought Ventura would of at least got 5%
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 6, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
When you look at his overall numbers though
He was never elite, and was only very good for 2-3 seasons. He was mostly just an above average major league player.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
were you talking about Dawson or Ventura there?
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 6, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Which is a real shame
cause Eric Karros wasn’t that bad… and Andre Dawson wasn’t that good…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
huh
I thought Galarraga had a pretty awesome career
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 6, 2010 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
what a surprise that David Segui didnt make the cut
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 6, 2010 9:42 PM EST up reply actions
Ray Lankford is getting the boot?
EFF YOU BBWAA I will burn you alive every single one…
/sarcasm
PS I am not a psychopath…just saying.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 6, 2010 10:43 PM EST up reply actions
I have a dumb question
is there a link with the vote totals…?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
And while we are on the subject
Player A:
15 seasons
351 HRs
1119 RBIs
1848 Hits
320 2Bs
.292 BA
.912 OPS
156 OPS+
ROY
MVP
7-time All-Star
Player B
21 Seasons
438 HRs
1591 RBIs
2774 Hits
503 2Bs
.279 BA
.806 OPS
119 OPS+
ROY
MVP
8-time All-Star
One guy hung around to ‘compile’ numbers. The other guy hung it up at the Age of 35. One of these men was just elected to the HOF, the other never got higher than 16% of the vote. One guy was the best power hitter for a 10 year stretch, the other fraudulently won an MVP award.
Grumble.
In the live-ball era, Player A has the highest OPS+ of any player eligible for the HOF that is not currently in it.
okay, who is player A?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
ahh yes, would have
been nice to see him stick around STL for more than 1 year. But hey, at least we got Sizemore for him!
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I should have caught that earlier
I’ve always been a fan of Dick Allen.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
thanks writers
it disgusts me that voters who are denying mcgwire the hof right now are the same ones that are going to vote bonds in a few years from now.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 6, 2010 3:42 PM EST reply actions
I'm gonna take the wait and see approach on that one
I think how Clemens and Bonds are handled will be really, really interesting in light of how they’ve treated McGwire.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
they get the benefit of the doubt for now
but the second they vote in either bonds or clemens (two players with actual positive tests), i’m going to blow a gasquet.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 6, 2010 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
the not-crazy argument would be that bonds and clemens were HOF caliber players without steroids.
not clear that mac was.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
but he had 49 HRs as a rookie
I dunno, I think you could argue Mac would have had a HOF-type career arc as well. If you want to penalize his numbers because of PEDs, then you have to make sure you’re judging the guy’s hypothetical career numbers by standards that aren’t themselves roid-inflated too, right?
So without the andro and whatever else, does he end up with “merely” (say) 400 HRs instead of 583? Wouldn’t that be a career considered for Cooperstown pre-1990s? Does not getting quite so ridiculously large mean he’s faster and legs out more doubles, plays even better defense, and/or doesn’t get hurt as often?
Same questions go for Bonds/Clemens/Sosa, and probably Ortiz & Ramirez when they retire, etc. I bet somebody in the stats community has looked at trying to adjust/modify career stats to account for PEDs….
I think you should ask
Mr. Gasquet first
Some people have their own bowling ball and their own bowling shoes and no friends.
I wanna see how Sosa gets treated
if he gets more votes than McGwire, I am gonna be severely pissed
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I heard that is why he dyed himself white
So people think he is ghost and will get pity votes
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 6, 2010 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i read the subject line of this comment and thought it was going in another direction
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 6, 2010 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
No chance
unless every voter that played before 1985 dies first.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 6, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
It is possible
All that speed they took is not good for the heart
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 6, 2010 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
it's funny cause it's true...
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
well
bonds was better than mcgwire fwiw
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 6, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
at baseball
that is a good question
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 6, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
it's like a consolation prize for being a cub fan
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 6, 2010 5:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I saw someone else ask this question, but it begs the question...
Does Tim Raines lose votes because the old retards of the BBWAA get him confused with Harold Baines?
Just an abomination of a vote today.
He hit it good. He hit it good.
So what cap will "The Hawk" be wearing into Cooperstown?
It would have to be the Expos cap right?
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Jan 6, 2010 9:46 PM EST reply actions
that would be hillarious
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 6, 2010 9:59 PM EST up reply actions
Hope so
I miss the Expos
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Jan 6, 2010 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
Damn
Ok, here’ s the thing. I think Andre Dawson was a fine player and a good human being and a Good Ambassador© and all that shit. However, the dude’s career OBP was .323. THREETWENTYTHREE. Do you know what this means BBWAA? It means that he got out A LOT!!! Most of his PA’s ended in a sharp turn into the dugout.
Hey! You stat nerd get out of the basement!
Okay, thank you for that. Anyway…
Hey dweeb quit humping a pillow on the downstairs couch/your bed and listen up1
Okay, I’m willing to listen if you’ll stop the disparaging remarks.
Quit with that vocablurry stuff! Listen. The Hawk made outs because he was trying to HIT! It’s called HITTING, not walking. Walking is for fast people who steal bases!
Didn’t Hawk steal a lot of bases when he was younger and fast?
Well… hey shutup nerd! Listen, that was the 80’s when men were MEN and didn’t go up there and walk like a bunch of ninnies. 80’s hitters didn’t care to walk, they had to get back the dugout to snort coke! hit you pansy!!! Now, what do you have to say to that, nerd!
Well, sir, his career overlapped that of Dave Parker, who was Feared© by some and his OBP was still almost 20 pts higher (though still crappy), Dave Murphy (.346), Pedro Guerrero (.370) and a bunch of other guys who were considered powerful hitters with MUCH higher OBPs than he.
Yeah but OBP wasn’t important then ner…
You mean back then it was okay to get out all the time? Wait, where’d you go?
Crickets, chirp for 10 min.
Hey nerd, I’m back!!! Did you make some microwaved nachos in your mom’s microwave or something while I was gone NERD?
Um… well I actually did make microwaved nachos, but in my own microwave b/c I have a job and a wife and stuff…
Yeah well you’re still a SABR dork fool!
…OKAY I think I’ve made my point. It would have been easier to say that this pick was wrong, but whatever… This was fun too!!!
DUCKS OBJECTS THROWN THROUGH THE INTERWEBS…
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 6, 2010 10:58 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
THE LESSON, TO GET INTO THE HALL OF FAME
DO NOT BE: One of the top 5 greatest second basemen of all time.
DO NOT BE: One of the top five strike out pitchers of all time.
DO NOT BE: The second greatest leadoff hitter of all time.
DO BE: A pretty good outfielder with a wining smile and handsome mustache.
by Mister Eff on Jan 7, 2010 1:33 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
It's always the stache.
If LaRue flashed a smile every now and then, he’d be a shoe-in.
by arch support on Jan 7, 2010 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
he relies on his flowing locks.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jan 10, 2010 12:58 AM EST up reply actions
+1
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 7, 2010 9:28 PM EST up reply actions
yet another black eye for this great game
nice job assclows, nice fucking job
it’s long pasted time the BWWAClowns get this privilege taken away. they clearly don’t take it seriously & cannot keep from letting their own petty vindictive feelings cloud their judgment. do the right thing for once Bud & take the vote away from them & give it to those who have no preconceived notions & don’t have their heads firmly shoved up their own ass
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
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