holliday signs.
by tom s. on Jan 5, 2010 5:56 PM EST
Email
Printtry not to burn this place down.
why is this jon heyman tweet SI story different from all others?
The St. Louis Cardinals have agreed to a seven-year, $120 million deal with Matt Holliday, SI.com has learned. Holliday will also get a full no-trade clause.
For the mathematically impaired, that would be a roughly $17M AAV for Matt Holliday. Seems like a lot for a guy with no other serious suitors.
Some O'Fallon realtor is in for a big commission in the near future, I think.
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bleh indeed
come spring, I’ll be rooting for Holliday. Right now I am upset with the years. Hopefully Mo still has money to get us some pitching help.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Hopefully this isn't true.
120? obviously a typo. more like 7/102.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
think about it though
what’s 17 mil in seven years?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
119?
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
exactly!
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
woo
German Post WWI inflation…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
Is that someone
adjusting for the apocalypse I see?
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
oooh that's right. i completely forgot the apocalypse projections.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Can't we just
start signing guys to hugely backloaded contracts that start inflating in 2013? C’mon Mo! Sign Sheets for 7 years too!
You may run like Hayes, but you hit like shit.
I wouldn't be so certain.
And even if that was so, what about the next four? Potentially disastrous.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
sure, because a gigantic contract for an outfielder has never backfired on anybody.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
hey, tookie. long time no see.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
Hola.
Congrats on the front page promotion if I didn’t tell you already. I’ve been lurking (except on Saturdays when the articles make my brain smoke).
All work and no play makes all4tookie suck.
Free Milton
that's less than a centiquid.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
NTC
not worth the blue balls.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I wonder if MO's balls weren't aluminum this whole time.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
or aluminium.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
No. We're American. We drop that unneeded "i"
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
we have more than one Brit now
be careful
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Don't tread on me.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
who's the other one?
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
happy he signed
Everyone was jumping for joy when the deal was rumored to be 7-98 so what’s the difference of 3 million per year? Maybe, don’t answer that, veb. Regardless, ill sleep well tonight.
Mo, you can trade anything of mine.
by njnick on Jan 5, 2010 5:59 PM EST via mobile reply actions
a middle relief pitcher or a flier on a decent pitcher
thats what 3 mil is worth.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:00 PM EST up reply actions
agreed
But…in the grand scheme of the things it represents around 3 percent of the cardinals payroll. I’d rather him at 14 but I’m not gonna go crazy at 17. I’d much rather given him 4-80 though.
Mo, you can trade anything of mine.
by njnick on Jan 5, 2010 6:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
i agree with this
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
but that's what they go for on a market at times.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
Our organizational philosophy, however
is to develop all of our bullpen arms in house, which is a good philosophy to have, imo. Look at how many pitchers we’ve drafted as relievers and have moved to relief since Luhnow and Mo took over in the front office.
I hope that we can begin to develop some more MLB regulars though, because we’re not going to be able to spend on big contracts (>$10M AAV) if we have Holliday and Pujols on the team.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
a middle reliever was honestly something i picked from the sky
i could have said league average outfielder or a 2 WAR middle infielder as well.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
we're set for the next 5 years
in LF and CF, and hopefully one of DJ Tools or Allen Craig can handle RF after Ludwick’s time is up. Really no room for middling outfielders. Boog is probably the SS for the next few years unless Tyler Greene figures out how to take a pitch or Kozma blossoms with the bat (not likely, imo).
$3M per season is just not a lot honestly. Considering it’s less AAV than I thought we’d get him for, it’s spot on with his projected WAR over that period (meaning it was evaluated well at cost), and he’s the best hitter at his position over the last 5 seasons I think this is going to be a good deal for us. We have a fantastic 1-2 punch in the middle of our lineup now, and if Rasmus can develop into a .350-.360 wOBA hitter in the next couple of seasons our offense should be pretty good for years to come — we could be looking at another MV3 situation.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
i agree on all points
i was trying to send the message that three million simply wasn’t enough to really fuss about.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
wow
weren’t you taking the opposite stance 30 minutes ago?
either way, i agree. kind of. i don’t like 7 years, but overall, i’m pleased
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Huh?
How is that? The entire offseason I said I’d be happy with a deal at $18MM AAV or less because he’d likely be worth that even on an 8 year contract.
I said earlier that I think Rasmus needs to become a very good cost controlled player and that Shelby Miller and another pitching prospect have to pan out for us to be competitive at this payroll threshold over the entire life of the contract.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
i dunno
lots of info really fast. just thought you were saying you didn’t like it
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I don't mind the contract
I don’t like the years, and NTC for the first four years kinda sucks even though I don’t know why we’d trade him it’s always nice to have the option to do so. I think the value is just about right, maybe a year too long, but OTOH, we have an All-Star LF in the fold now and two potential franchise type players on one team — can’t really complain about that.
I’ll be interested to see how the negotiations with Albert go and where payroll goes over the next couple of seasons. I have a feeling payroll is going to go up as the organization takes a shot at going deep in the playoffs the next couple of seasons.
I just hope they sign another pitcher instead of Miguel Tejada. Ugh.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
maybe , but
isn’t that about what frizzy is getting
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
you could get a comparable MR pitcher for league minimum with a decent farm.
This gives us a few years to build that farm without needing to trade prospects for another “impact bat.”
On with the (good) youth movement!
I still dont like the 7th year
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Yea, 6/102 was realistic, I thought.
He gets 17 mil AAV, and cracks the 100 mill threshold. I’d still like to hear the official announcement.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
the 7th year blows chunks
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
I'm OK with This...
…it’s a lot of molah, granted, and a lot of years – but if it keeps the Mang in St. Louis, then its a bargain. Our outfield, barring injury, is set for a good while. Give it up to ownership, they ponied up for a good player. Let’s just hope he’s near worth it in years 5-7. The no-trade clause is key, though. We’re in bed with this cowtract come hell or high bacon…errr, water.
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
How much does this contract
increase the likelihood that Albert sticks around? 5%? Maybe…
Albert’s decision is going to come down to the money and the team and this signing may have increased his likelihood in staying here only slightly. It’s not nothing, but this signing, by itself, won’t keep Albert in St. Louis.
then, i'm glad we have a good hitter
if albert still won’t talk next offseason, it’s time to flip him for another team’s entire farm
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Did you actually just misspell moolah and make it less bovine?
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Jan 6, 2010 12:48 AM EST up reply actions
yeah, actually now that I think about it more
I don’t like this very much. I remember being quite dismayed at the 8/128 rumor. This ain’t much better, if at all.
At least there is no opt out clause
i was worried about that…i wonder if there are any option years…7 years is a long time…maybe one of the years is an option
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
tru dat
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Matt Holliday will be a Cardinal in 2016
That’s two presidential elections from now!
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
damn
i was gonna vote for him in 2016
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Do you think Albert will run?
Part of me thinks he won’t want to play and be prez at the same time, but I have to believe he could do it.
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
albert's got to be thinking bigger than just the US
universe is more in his ballpark
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Why bother?
He’s already the king of a much better country, Albertofstan.
We're going through a new avatar test phase here at mojowo11. Please be patient as we may try a variety of new ideas over the coming days and weeks.
I thought Albert and Stan
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
Unfortunately
King Albert is not eligible to be Prez of the US.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 5, 2010 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
Do you doubt the power of Albert Pujols?
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
Politics are for mortals
The Mang is a deity
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~
he will when thr DR becomes a state
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
i wonder if that will ever happen?
i doubt it will until something happens with cuba
NO POLITICS GDM! sry
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
what?
we’d have to annex the Dominican, which is a country on its own. I think matty’s talking about the whole Constitutional thing where only a natural-born U.S. citizen can become president. unless, uh, you’re being sarcastic, in which case now you know.
so Albert could never be POTUS.
but AJ could, in about 25 years.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I think that one day
all of the Dominican Republic will read this thread. They will then say “Hey, Albert really does need to become the Prez” . Long story short, the whole of the DR petitions the US to become a state.
And yeah, I was talkin about the whole Constitutional thingy.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Just for comedic value:
Domincan Repubic population: 10,000,000
Alaska population: 698,473
Wyoming Population: 532,668
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
hahaha...you sheep. You think we'll still have elections in 2016
Zeitgeist!!! New World Order!!!! Illuminati!!! Bilderberg!!! ZOMG ZOMG!!!
hahahahaha
bilderberg
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
I would have been okay with an opt out clause after 3 or 4 years
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
yea, for us
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
either way
I would have been peeing my pants happy if it would have been a 4 year deal
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I'm excited!
under the $18M AAV
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
your avatar will be SEVEN YEARS OLD before we can trade him
if it’s that kind of an NTC.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
so what you're saying
is that my son will have plenty of time to follow possibly the best 3-4 hitters in the league, at the tail end of their prime?
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
only if they can re-sign Pujols for more than that.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
after this showing
of wanting to win, I don’t see a scenario where he doesn’t….but I’m just an excited fan and not being that rational.
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
where's flim?
i win the shirt.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:02 PM EST reply actions
IJUSTWANTTOBEPARTOFTHISDISCUSSIONWITHOUTACTUALLYSAYINGANYTHING!
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
let's go twitter scraping...
Goold: http://twitter.com/dgoold/status/7417967361
@amberkow No, but look for smoke. Black smoke means talks continue. White smoke means he has signed. #stlcards
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
well now we need vexed to p'shop a papal holliday
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
"OHHHHH!!!!!!! IT TASTES. SO. GOOD!!!!!!!!!!"
-BOOOOOOOOG
by slu on Jan 5, 2010 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
easy
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jan 5, 2010 6:09 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
don't forget the nuts
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
this bowl of nuts.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Booyah!
Full-Size located HERE
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Jan 5, 2010 6:56 PM EST up reply actions 10 recs
good work vexed
now keep that bench warm. you’re in charge of the seeds. don’t mix them with the nuts.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
very nice
I don’t know what you call the person how hangs out and stands next to the pope. I didn’t know they had agents.
they have their own version of secret service
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Papal Guards, baby... Straight outta the Swiss Army
BEST UNIFORMS EVER
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
Designed by Michelangelo
That may or may not actually be true. If you ask the right tour guide, everything in Rome was designed by Michelangelo, including the airport.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
They're not out of the swiss army
they’re called the “Swiss guard” but they’re italian.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 5:18 AM EST up reply actions
Snap...this bad boy got green?!
It’s been so long since any comment I’ve made was rec’d.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
what's the deal with Hass avocados?
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 5:19 AM EST up reply actions
you've gotta balance the bench-warming with the photoshop
that’ll be chapter 2 in your baseball biography
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
here's one
"/>
Ya know, I still don’t like that he is wearing #15. Too soon to be giving that number to someone for seven years.
y'know, ... it occurs to me that he should be a cardinal.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
But red birettas are nowhere near as cool as popehats.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
[shrugs] you're the expert
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I am?! I wiki'd what the hat was called.
…Do cardinals get bulletproof cars? No. Popes do.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
dear vexed
don’t admit wiki’ing unless you’re cribbing from them
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Dear y2s
Don’t tell me what to do.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Jan 5, 2010 8:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
well now you're not an expert.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Expert benchwarmer.
Expert photoshooper.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
HAHA
and next he’ll be blessing the people with a stoic Deus Caritas Est
Heaven has brick walls and St. Peter is a red bird.
by EinFesteBusch on Jan 5, 2010 6:06 PM EST up reply actions
heh, Timmeh K is still on Randy Johnson
eat that, Boras. Big Unit’s presser is in an hour, I think.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
honestly,
it’s still a victory for mo
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
eh
i’ll give him a draw
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
considering that it's boras
and he originally wanted 22MM a year. then 18MM. 17 aint bad. especially if all 7 years aren’t guaranteed
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
yea but no other suitors
and….well thats all
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
true
but he pretty much had to get more than bay. and he didn’t get much more than bay. so, not bad, mo. still kind of a sucky contract, but oh well
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
The scary part:
Biggest contracts ever given to outfielders:
Manny Ramirez – 160
Alfonso Soriano – 136
Vernon Wells – 126
Matthew Holliday – 119
Fear mongering and hot stove go hand in hand
Free Melodi Dushane
Question:
Is Matt Holliday more akin to Soriano, Wells, or Ramirez? I would say Ramirez. Nonetheless, it is quite a king’s ransom, isn’t it?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jan 5, 2010 6:39 PM EST up reply actions
Ramirez...
in the sense that he’s good, whereas the other two never really were.
4-6 more WAR in 2010!
fonzy was awesome for a couple of years
middle infielder (albeit crappy one), great contact hitter, 30+ HR-power. It’s just he had a skillset that tends to horribly tank with age.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 5:20 AM EST up reply actions
def manny
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
But he's most similar
to Ramirez, of those players, and Manny was well worth that contract over it’s entirety.
You also forgot Carlos Beltran (7Y$119M) on your list.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Nice addendum.
Agree that Holliday is probably the second best of the group with a skill set that doesn’t age as poorly
Free Melodi Dushane
ABOUT TIME!
I’ll be sleeping a lot better tonight knowing that Holliday has signed. Now we can move on!
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
Matty Ho speaks
http://twitter.com/dgoold/status/7418790026
Matt Holliday appearing on Doug Gottlieb show (on ESPN Radio) right now to confirm his deal.
less than 5 seconds ago from web
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
now that is some twitterin'
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
just turned it on
did they hang up on him?
Heaven has brick walls and St. Peter is a red bird.
by EinFesteBusch on Jan 5, 2010 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
Goold again
Holliday on Gottlieb show: “I’m going back to the Cardinals.”
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
http://den-a.plr.liquidcompass.net/standard_plr/audio_player.php?id=WXOSFM&playerType=silverlight
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
thanks dude
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
they just said
full interview at 6:05
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
holliday
said 120 guaranteed with an option year on the end
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
cards still interested in tejada they say
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
face+palm.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
really?
are the Cards aware they also need apple hurlers with which to hurl the spheroid plate-ward.
by mattyp on Jan 5, 2010 6:33 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
i'll fling said apples for league minimum
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I'll fling them for just the meal money
We're going through a new avatar test phase here at mojowo11. Please be patient as we may try a variety of new ideas over the coming days and weeks.
I'd fling 'em, and pay them to fling 'em
just to be on the same field with the Mang.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 5, 2010 9:31 PM EST up reply actions
The rotation's pretty full
they could use more bullpen depth (smoltz), but I’m not too concerned with a crappy fifth starter
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Perhaps Dave Duncan could dig a trench,
so that the sinker would be so low as he desires it.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Jan 5, 2010 11:04 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Rec
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Jan 6, 2010 12:48 AM EST up reply actions
When did we re-hire Walt?
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Jan 5, 2010 6:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I assume this info followed this path:
Boras —> Heyman —> SI.com —> VEB
This makes me cautious about believing this is a contract for a guaranteed length of 7 years at $120MM. Accepting the report as true, we didn’t overpay as much as I feared we might. The last couple of days got me overly optimistic that we would sign him to a very reasonable deal and I’m now attempting to tamp down those unrealistic expectations. I don’t hate this deal. And, if Year 7 is a vesting option, I’ll be very pleased with 6 years of a $17MM AAV. $18MM was the limit of my stomaching the deal and 6 years was my ideal length. So, what does someone with my tastes think of this? I guess I like it. $1MM less in AAV than was my limit, but one year over my ideal length. Matt Holliday will be 36 in the final year of this deal, for perspective, and that’s okay.
The real winners are Mo and DeWitt. The “DeWallet” jokes are done, for at least until the Pujols extension talks are over and done and Mo went out and gave up faberge eggs to Win Now and then spent over $100MM to Win Now again. Good for DeWitt. Good for Mo. Good for the 2010 Cardinals. Good Cardinal fans for the near future, without question.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I think we are all winners if those "DeWallet" jokes are done
i will switch to loving this deal, if those jokes are done
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
DeWallet puns go on Holliday with new, more punny last name in the Cards
We're going through a new avatar test phase here at mojowo11. Please be patient as we may try a variety of new ideas over the coming days and weeks.
by mojowo11 on Jan 5, 2010 7:04 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
further update from heyman.
The two sides had previously discussed a seven-year deal worth roughly $16 million per, but Holliday was seeking more annual money than Jason Bay recently received from the Mets in his four-year, $66 million contract. This contract would pay Holliday more than $17 million on average for each of the seven seasons.
i’m glad that one-upping jason bay is what’s really important.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
+1
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I blame Canada for the financial crisis.
"The outfield is deep and playing him straight-away, and the infield is the same, except first, second, third, and short are playing him to pull."
-Mike Shannon
All right
those are fighting words. We are very patriotic, and do not accept any dissing. My oldest son living in Toronto went to a Buffalo Bills game against the Toronto Argonauts (weird exhibition game) and the fans were booing when they played the Canadian national anthemn (presumably against the team, not the song). My son, being a feisty sort, started asking the nearby fans why were they booing the Canadian anthemn. One thing led to another, and he got ejected God bless America.
by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Jan 5, 2010 8:26 PM EST up reply actions
I would be pretty ashamed and offended if I saw Americans booing the Canadian national anthemn
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 5, 2010 8:31 PM EST up reply actions
That song is so gory.
It’s a really strange juxtaposition of the majestic major key and then the slashing of throats and blood watering the valleys of France.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
The Marseillaise is sooooo closely tied with the international movement
toward democracy—if you boo it, you hate democracy.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Jan 6, 2010 2:17 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
and casablanca, too
and who here but adam dunn hates both democracy and casablanca?
by DanUpBaby on Jan 6, 2010 2:23 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm starting to believe Adam Dunn is a ginger
it would make so much sense
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I would be very upset if fans were booing the Canadian National Anthem.
I think it is one of the better National Anthems. That I’ve heard to be fair.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Well
it happened. Anyhow, as a general principle, I don’t know why they play anthems at games anyhow. What bugged my son was that our politicians followed the US into Afghanistan, but the fans were really abusive about Canada sitting on the rail. Just bad Bufflaloes I guess. I was in AFG for 3 years, so maybe that incited him.
by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Jan 5, 2010 8:54 PM EST up reply actions
In fairness,
Holliday’s probably earned a better contract than Bay. (I’m sure that there are some numbers somewhere to prove me wrong on that, but hey, I’ll stick to my story.)
"But I’m still hungry. I’ve got 10 fingers. There’s one that’s busy and I need nine more."
- Albert Pujols
it's a better contract than Bays, even if it has a lesser AAV
it’s a 120M dollar f’in contract!
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
How is that fair?
If Holliday deserved a better contract than Bay, the Mets could have given him one. The bottom line is that the Cards were bidding against no one and raised their offer b/c Boras complained that he couldn’t get a lower AAV than Bay. That’s bad business.
by chuckb on Jan 5, 2010 6:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Holliday was somewhat...
over a barrel, but so were the Cardinals. Our offense was going to suck without Holliday and everyone knew it.
4-6 more WAR in 2010!
That, and you want your long-term FA signing to be happy.
That extra 500k a year isn’t hamstringing the Cards. The length of the contract will be the problem.
Now with extra feisty!
I think that was a big consideration
They want him to be happy here and you know how athletes can get about being disrespected.
And..
- then have Sheets, Smoltz, and Garcia have a steel cage death match for the fifth starting spot?
- Go with a 6 or 7 man rotation?
- Break Lohses legs?
Why would both Smoltz and Sheets sign with us when we have exactly one open rotation spot? Sometimes I think you get confused about what would be awesome for the Cardinals and what’s actually possible and realistic.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
plus
we have at least 4 war locked up for the next 4-5 years. flops, smoltz and sheets don’t give us that. maybe we can make bargain steals like that every year, but i doubt it
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
and that's going to continue to perpetuate?
either way, you’re proposing that we spend $17MM/yr for 5 WAR every year in the future. we’ve probably done that if not a little better for the next 4-5 years and then we’ll be overpaying a bit the last couple years. and that doesn’t account for inflation
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
We're also assuming
That the Cards aren’t making any adjustments on the revenue side with Holliday vs. without. In the short term particularly, since we are talking about 1 year deals presumably with those 3.
I think Holliday increases the spending cap to some extent because there are fans that will spend to see him more than any other FA option(s). It’s in many of their heads that this is the guy that is needed, and revenue will reflect that mindset whether we share that belief or not.
by Merry CRasmus on Jan 5, 2010 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
Garcia goes to the minors
I’ve always said that. Also, with Sheets, Carp, Penny and Smoltz in the same rotation, you don’t think at least 1 of them will miss significant amount of time.
Probably
But how do you sell that to the guy you’re signing as the 6th starter?
“Don’t worry Ben, as soon as Chris, Kyle, Brad, or John goes down with an injury, you’re the very next option!!!”
On what fucking planet does he not tell us to shove it?
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
heh
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
well, unless lohse has "starting pitcher" in his contract, we could have a
carp
waino
sheets
smoltz
penny
rotation
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
Could....
so then we have a $10M long reliever? Is that really a good use of resources? I think not.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
lohse's contract is a sunk cost. if we can add wins to the team that way, why not?
also, he would as much be a 6th starter in waiting. those five guys are not going to make 33 starts each.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
but what do you tell lohse?
and why are we simply assuming he’s going to suck?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 8:36 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think anyone's assuming anything
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~
he was injured last year for the first time in his career
I for one expect a rebound
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 5, 2010 8:38 PM EST up reply actions
thank you
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
no one's assuming that.
i’m assuming that he’s the least essential part of that rotation.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
and so we can just throw his ass into the bullpen?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 8:54 PM EST up reply actions
i was trying to come up with a scenario where you could add two pitchers to
the rotation.
i don’t think this is likely, but it’s not out of the question.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
and you think he would just respond,
have a good attitude, and pitch well out of the bullpen?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 8:57 PM EST up reply actions
actuallly I think he'd demand a trade
This idea is getting better and better
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~
you expect a team to take him
and his salary…and give us something decent in exchange?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
Ken. Williams
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~
by YesWeOquendo on Jan 5, 2010 9:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think it's an incredible waste of resources
considering that Sheets and Smoltz are health risks as it is, and neither will probably be better than a 1.5 WAR upgrade over Lohse.
I think the money could be better spent on upgrading our LF by 4 WAR. Mo and DeWitt seem to agree.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
nah
we’re throwing away wins by sticking lohse in the pen
i think he’ll be 2 WAR next season. putting him in the pen as a long man makes him more like 0.5 WAR
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Riiiight
What if he holds out and doesn’t show up to camp? How does it play then?
And why do you guys just assume that humans will just do as you tell them to do? Do you manage robots at work or something?
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Didn't smoltz say he was willing to work from the pen?
although it was also reported he wanted to start. In that scenario, I pencil in those 5 guys to start, offer Smoltz a contract with incentives based on appearances or something, and tell him straight off the bat that if he’s healthy, he’s the full-time closer for a team that has Holliday and Pujols in the middle of the lineup and a pretty awesome 5-man rotation.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 5:26 AM EST up reply actions
your comment reads as Man Stew Man Stew Man Stew
I approve.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
i bet you do
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Are you telling him this before or after you sign him?
Do you think he can’t read between the lines? He wants to start, so he’ll sign with incentives that allow him to start like he did in Boston probably. A HOF veteran of 20 years is not going to get fucked into doing something he doesn’t want to do.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
He actually said before
He prefers to close in the regular season and start in the playoffs. But alas he would be signed as our 8th inning man.
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 5, 2010 8:36 PM EST up reply actions
Smoltz said that?
Find it, because I don’t buy it, and that doesn’t make a lick of sense either. If you’re in the bullpen all year, you’re certainly not making your first start of the year in the playoffs.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
he said it last year right before the playoffs started on the radio
I think it was October on ESPN 101.1
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 5, 2010 8:44 PM EST up reply actions
Well there's this from the
Smoltz has drawn interested from teams as a starter, late-inning reliever, and a hybrid of both (the Phils have needs in the back end of their rotation and bullpen). The pitcher is open to all those possibilities, and will weigh his options after completing this information-gathering phase of his process.
* is an Asshat
Just b/c it doesn;t make sense, that doesn't mean
he personally doesn’t like the thrill of starting a postseason game and the thrill of closing a regular season game over starting a regular season game and closing in the playoffs.
Again?
You asked for and received multiple verifications of this interview in a previous thread, and ignored it as you continued posting.
Smoltz has never said this
But thanks, jerkoff.
His agent has, but agents will say anything to get the best deal for their client. Do you really believe that he’d come to the Cardinals to pitch in the bullpen when he could start for someone like the Mets?
The man has said, repeatedly, over the past 3 seasons that he wants. to. start. games.
Show me a quote from Smoltz himself that he would rather close than start. Good luck.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Smoltz has never said this
But thanks, jerkoff.
See, this is why you annoy people. There was absolutely no call for that comment.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 10:04 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
You asked for and received multiple verifications of this interview in a previous thread, and ignored it as you continued posting.
There’s also no call for this, but, as usual, I’m the bad guy.
I’m done with this thread.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
FWIW
This was not ignored, but Smoltz was also taken ENTIRELY OUT OF CONTEXT by the posters citing this as evidence that he’ll work in the bullpen.
He simply said that he’s weighing his options and will look for a fit that is best for him. Considering that for the last 2+ seasons he has said that he would rather start, that starting is easier on his arm, that his contract in Boston was set up in such a way that they would either start him or let him go, I’ll take this to mean that he’s looking for a places where he can start games, if there aren’t any available then he might look at closing or he might just retire.
He’s never EVER, EVER said, in any quote that I’ve seen, that he prefers closing to starting.
If I turn people off, then fine, I’m really fucking tired of people not taking players at their word and taking what they say out of context because it fits what they would LIKE to happen.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
We are talking about a specific interview in which he was asked whether he prefers to start or close, and his response was that he feels like he has the greatest impact on the game when closing in the regular season and starting in the post-season. It was not taken out of context, and it was unambiguous.
I believe you when you say that you didn’t hear him say this, but he has many interviews.
Yeah, stick, dude.
Your arguments are pretty sound.
But your inability to phrase it without making the other person look stupid is why people can’t argue with you w/out getting pissed off.
Your contributions are great. But it sucks that they have to be taken with a punch in the nuts on such a regular basis.
by arch support on Jan 6, 2010 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry Arch
but astro nearly always comes off like a prick to me, as if he knows better than everyone else. I get a little sick of it.
As far as me ignoring evidence — that’s patently untrue because the quote was taken out of the context of the conversation that he was having on the radio. The degree to which people go to fill their own delusional fantasies continues to be impressive.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I wasn't trying to say anything about the validity of astro's post.
Just stating my opinion on what it’s like to be on the other side of a fourstick conversation.
FlimtotheFlam: “actually I heard him on ESPN 101.1 right before the playoffs / He said he prefers the Bullpen in the regular season and likes to start in the playoffs”
astrostl: “I heard the same interview / I thought it was TV around the playoffs, but it might have been repeated. I remember him saying something to the effect of him saying that it maximizes his feeling of having affected the game.”
mattyfrommo: “He also said the same thing on an FSM interview”
I don’t personally know Flim or matty, and I did not conspire with them to make up having heard an interview. Which do you think is more likely: that three people who say so all heard the same thing, or that it did not and could not have happened simply because you didn’t hear it yourself?
In addition to all the other benefits, if you tone down your assertions it will be easier to course-correct if it turns out that you were mistaken. The way you dig in your heels makes it virtually impossible to save face in light of an error, and you compound it by insulting people who disagree.
In addition to all the other benefits, if you tone down your assertions it will be easier to course-correct if it turns out that you were mistaken. The way you dig in your heels makes it virtually impossible to save face in light of an error, and you compound it by insulting people who disagree.
Thanks Mr. Freud.
I guess we’ll have to see won’t we? I don’t think that he’ll take a closer’s position if a starting spot is available. Period. You can fucking disagree all you want, I’m past the point of giving a shit.
My original point still stands — You can’t keep signing free agent starters when you have no spots left in your rotation. You can speculate all you want about moving pitchers to the bullpen or which guys might want to pitch where uder what circumstances. Bottom line — it’s all hearsay and is ridiculous to discuss because it will not happen.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
Here's what I think is likely:
Which do you think is more likely: that three people who say so all heard the same thing, or that it did not and could not have happened simply because you didn’t hear it yourself?
That you all assumed that because he’s said that he may like to pitch out of the bullpen on occasion (crucial games, playoffs, etc.) that you all then inferred that means he’s open to pitching out of the bullpen.
See, when you take things out of the context of the conversation, it’s easy to misinterpret what someone was saying. I’ll take the other thousand quotes I’ve heard on Dan Patrick’s show and read in the newspaper and other sources, as well as his quirky Red Sox contract to mean that he IS more interested in starting than relieving and that he’ll take nearly every opportunity to start games if given one.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I'm not insulting you
You assuming that I’d ignored a bunch of evidence. I didn’t. That’s pretty fucking insulting to say to someone who nearly always has a researched opinion on things and backs up his assertions with evidence.
As far as calling you a jerk-off, well, sometimes you come off like an all-knowing prick. You don’t want to be part of the conversation? Scroll the fuck on down then. We don’t need your sniping.
Can Colby round out our new MV3?
I’m not assuming that you ignored it, there is a written record: you asked, received, remained active in that thread, and then asked again in this one.
Examples of your “all-knowing” assertions:
“The dude will simply RETIRE if his only option is to pitch in the bullpen. He hates it there”
“He will not be in the bullpen for any team at the start of next year. Period. Move on.”
“It’s not bluster, sir, it’s fact. He’s stated 100 million times in the last 3 years that he doesn’t want to work in the bullpen.”
You went on – several times – to insist that those of us who heard his words must been twisting them and/or taking them out of context, rather than consider that you may have missed the interview.
Your opinions may be researched, but your posts are full of assertions with no backup and plenty of unnecessary, colorful language. It’s not good.
And now you’re claiming that you’re not insulting me in the same post where you acknowledge having called me a jerk-off – I just don’t know what to say!
by astrostl on Jan 6, 2010 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
i think
it was the other way around
and i think it was more like he was willing to close in the playoffs. he prefers to start on the whole
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
In fairness
He’s probably earned a better contract than:
- Vernon Wells
- Alfonso Soriano
But that doesn’t mean I have to pay him BETTER than that, just because.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
WOOO!!!
Money schmoney
"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."
--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre
More tweetage
From Goold: “Holliday said the deal is seven years, $119 million, though it has some language that makes it $120 million guaranteed.”
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
more tweetage
per Leach: “Holliday indicated that there may be a club option for 2017”
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
that's a good thing, though
if it’s, say, for another $17m. If he ages really well and is still hitting like an elite guy at 36 (like, I dunno, Manny or someone), and if inflation of FA deals makes $17m > 3WAR in value, it might be something we’d want to pick up.
I MUCH prefer it if the 7th year of the deal is the option, though.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 5:28 AM EST up reply actions
Goold
I hope not nexdef’d
Holliday said the deal is seven years, $119 million, though it has some language that makes it $120 million guaranteed.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
boo
too many years. I hope they are not all guaranteed. or the Cards have exceptional insurance that pays them back if he hits under .280.
I'll wait until we've got all the contract details before I make any judgment.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
What the hell is wrong with you?
This is the Internet.
Yeah, get your eght inches out and vent!
by Mister Eff on Jan 5, 2010 6:42 PM EST up reply actions 11 recs
I... am gonna rec this.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
don't you want to holler
“Yeah get your eight inches out and vent!”?
we all get 8" on the internet, y’know. except for gdm (which he told us himself)
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I would yell....
but sometimes the internet world and the real world merge and if I yell…… my boss would just have to say….. “Impressed, but you have to go home now, for good”
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jan 5, 2010 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
IT'S COLD!!!!
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
I'm in this same boat.
My initial reaction though:
AAV is about right, probably one year too long, but we don’t have enough info to know if there was another good deal on the table, I hate NTC, but I think it was required.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
like bouros says
franchise players get ntc, just like lohse
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
My thought also
This is too simple of a contract for the Cardinals just straight up
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 5, 2010 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
holliday said
that there was “some stuff” in the contract.
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Wow
Only in America can you drop a fly ball to help lose an important playoff game and wind up 120 million richer 2 months later. But it’s not my money – so…YAY!!!!! Actually pretty stoked.
busttterrrrrrr
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
thank you - i needed a good laugh
Mo, you can trade anything of mine.
by njnick on Jan 5, 2010 6:14 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
uh, Olney...
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
No offense but
Matt Holliday got everything he wanted, minus $1M a year. Did we really win this negotiation with no competition?
I’m glad he’s on our team but that’s a lot of money and years.
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 5, 2010 6:13 PM EST via mobile reply actions
probably not
But we got the best player on the market and albert got his robin for the next 7 years.
Mo, you can trade anything of mine.
by njnick on Jan 5, 2010 6:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
This presupposes that Batman is not in Gotham in two.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jan 5, 2010 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
you go to hell, you go straight to hell!
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 5, 2010 6:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
In this particular instance
You have to get Holliday back and then deal with Pujols later. If you don’t sign Holliday and Pujols leaves anyway, you’re really in a bind. At least now you have Holliday in the fold and if Albert decides to bolt for $30M per season to the Yankees or Boston, then you still have a franchise player to build around.
I’m going to wait for more details on this particular contract before I comment. Suffice to say, if this is the deal, I think the AAV is about right, it’s the years that disturb me. There’s a rumor of a team option for an 8th season, which means 8Y$128M was probably a starting point.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Bottom line...
Three things need to happen for us to compete over the life of this contract without raising payroll significantly, outside of signing Pujols:
- Shelby Miller has to be the real deal.
- Our farm system must produce another starter and 2 other position players who are league average or better.
- Colby Rasmus must become a franchise type player in CF.
If those three things happen, we’re looking at a competitive ballclub over the entire 7 years, providing we keep Pujols of course.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
by fourstick on Jan 5, 2010 6:25 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
work harder on Shelby, AJ.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
yes, this makes this deal absolutely
makes the next few drafts critical. We’re going to be in dire need of young, cost-controlled pitching.
quick movers, too
I think we need to draft a couple of late college guys who could make the majors in 2-3 years.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 5:31 AM EST up reply actions
and if you're john mozeliak
haven’t you researched this? don’t you think he would know if he was being foolish by wasting this money away?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
You're not gdm's son
Your SoonerFan’s son
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i knew his mom was cheating on me!
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Is John Hendry? Is Brian Sabean?
Just because a fellow is a GM, doesn’t mean they are automatically making intelligent, informed uses of someone else’s money.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
It's Jim Hendry
I just totally flubbed that.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jan 5, 2010 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
but doesn't he deserve the benefit of the doubt for now?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
I don't hate this deal,
but I do hate the Lohse contract, which I immediately criticized (and haven’t stopped) even with VEP and other very smart individuals attempting to talk me down. I don’t think a GM ever deserves the benefit of the doubt when we can criticize based on an objective analysis of value. I’m more than willing to listen to such criticisms, to form my own opinion. Right now, I don’t hate it and it will make an enjoyable next two seasons, I hope.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jan 5, 2010 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
fair enough
like i said, i think mo deserves two years on this one.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
Lohse had some rough luck last year...
He started out great and then got banged up.
Holliday.
Uh huh, oh yeah.
Holliday.
He will be so nice.
Sounds like my sister in her 20's
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jan 5, 2010 7:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Is your sister a good "buy low" candidate?
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Jan 5, 2010 7:16 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
how is this not green?
LOL
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 5:33 AM EST up reply actions
i don't know how missed that yesterday
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
But even the best-case scenario had Lohse being "just about worth that deal"
it wasn’t like there was any ceiling for him to better it, and it didn’t factor in the possibility he might get hurt (as he did) or might start to suck as his stuff deteriorates in his age 32 and 33 years.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 5:33 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe
but there’s also a lot you can’t predict here. You can’t even predict Pujols coming back as much as we’d like to.
You can’t predict pitching draft picks to hit the major leagues or not get injured.
Hell, maybe DeWitt is thinking about payroll going up in the near future for whatever reason.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
but this is what i'm saying
of course you can’t predict who is going to work out and isn’t going to work out, but that’s what you have scouts for, to tell you who has the best chance of working out.
i still think mo isn’t even in the conversation for holliday if he doesn’t think at least somewhat highly of what the farm has to offer in the next five years. luhnow does exist for a reason.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:36 PM EST up reply actions
I think you're totally wrong
You have Pujols in his prime for 2-4 more seasons, with the current pitching staff of Carp, WW, Lohse in place for at least the next 4 years. The iron is hot, it’s time to strike, regardless of what we have coming up, and we just graduated the #3 prospect in all of baseball to the majors last year.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
i think we agree...
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe we should trade Shelby while his value is up?
Holliday.
Uh huh, oh yeah.
Holliday.
He will be so nice.
that's both a terrible idea and impossible until this summer.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
and his value is not yet up
he is far from being at his best trade value, and I am not endorsing trading Shelby
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
straight up for Longoria
git r done.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 5:34 AM EST up reply actions
git r done + british accent = mind blown
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~
git r done + british accent =
(you’re welcome, ladies of VEB)
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
good lord
if could spend 5 hours a day working out, maybe i’d look something like that. maybe
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
story of my life
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
it's more diet than workout
you’d have to give up bacon/pie/chocolate brownies
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~
locking up rasmus should be a high priority
On par with extending Pujols. If Mo could sign him to a deal like what Longoria gave to TB, that will help a lot going forward…
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
I agree,
but the notion that now Albert Pujols will assuredly come back is presumptuous. That’s all I’m saying.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jan 5, 2010 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
I feel more relieved than excited
The deal is done, but it makes me very nervous for the mid-to-late aughts.
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
Mid-to-late onesies
We're going through a new avatar test phase here at mojowo11. Please be patient as we may try a variety of new ideas over the coming days and weeks.
agreed
though i do wonder if the orioles were more involved than they let on….on mlb radio yesterday, they acted like the orioles were really involved
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
We better win the fucking World Series in the next few years
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
heck yes we better
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Apparently
One of Holliday’s kids liked the Cards a lot before the trade (per Goold)
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
Marecek got nexdef'd
that was in the 4 Days in July article. which Goold wrote. Goold’s tweaking the guy.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
the next time he drops a fly ball in the playoffs he's in trouble!
For this much money I expect a lot. I hope he realizes that.
Matt Holliday, sitting at home, brings up his iPhone and writes a note:
“Note to self: spfldbird on VEB expects a lot for this much money. "
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jan 5, 2010 6:16 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
It will be me, too.
And most everyone on this board as well as the P-D board and people who don’t even comment on boards. I was just teasing. We had this very discussion a while back. When a player conducts himself in this manner during negotiations, seeming saying, “I’m worth $20MM,” then he has to expect that folks will hold him to a $20MM standard (or, a 7-year, $120MM standard, as the case may be).
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jan 5, 2010 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
stock up on nuts. practice aim.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jan 5, 2010 6:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
he's back on gottlieb's show
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
"OHHHHH!!!!!!! IT TASTES. SO. GOOD!!!!!!!!!!"
-BOOOOOOOOG
report back!
we have some leftover pie
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
he uses the mini urinal when all other urinals are occupied
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
"OHHHHH!!!!!!! IT TASTES. SO. GOOD!!!!!!!!!!"
-BOOOOOOOOG
by slu on Jan 5, 2010 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
are we gonna get a chuck post out of this?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
are you or chuck ever happy with a move the team makes?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:22 PM EST up reply actions
You bet I do
infinitely better than this signing. In fact, Gutierrez is probably as good right now as Holliday. He’s certainly close and he’s younger and will make $100 M less. It’s a much better signing and it just isn’t close.
Actually
When you consider that Grady Sizemore signed this same deal in a much better market 4 years ago, you could make the case that they overpaid. He’s going to have to remain superhuman on defense because his best offensive season is barely above league average at .337 wOBA. He certainly isn’t the 6 WAR player he was last year, I would guess he’s no better than 4 WAR going forward, with nearly 2 WAR coming on defense.
This was also buying out arbitration years — if you think they get him this cheap as an unrestricted FA, you’re fucking nuts. Lets not compare completely different situations — thanks.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I'm forever happy
I just type so that you will get your panties in a bunch.
I feel so much better now.
i don't appreciate the sarcasm.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
he wrote it
so i’m sure he did.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
this better be intentional irony. because if it's not, that's pretty ironic.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
ummm...
your comment was full of sarcasm as well
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
man i'm good!
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
that's not what she said
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
I thought it was funny
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
sarcasm
the whole thread on my part was sarcasm.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:37 PM EST up reply actions
i loved the lou brock deal
old school, bitches!!!
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
You know,
I’m calling your bullshit here. This is the post you so often linked to and if you use the James WAR, the Cardinals UNDERPAID by 2 million dollars. I think you’re being awfully shifty in your position.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
Speaking for myself,
but I suspect VEP might be on a similar page as me, I don’t have a problem with the dollar total. It’s the seventh guaranteed year that tarnishes the deal. Nonetheless, I don’t hate the deal. I allowed myself to be convinced that Holliday might be had on a guaranteed 6-year deal and now I’m wrestling with those dashed expectations.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jan 5, 2010 6:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Right
I think everyone was overly optimistic about us having Holliday over some proverbial barrel. I was there too. I’m just not sure that’s an accurate assesment after seeing what our actual deal was.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
It's a fair price
However, who else was on Holliday? What other team was going to bid for him and pay nearly this much? Besides the market’s been much worse than the estimates in that article so far. This is a bad deal.
Prior to Bay and Holliday
the market was sitting around 3.5-3.7/WAR. You’d expect it to sit low when the biggest FA still haven’t signed. If that comes up to anything at or over 4M/WAR, this contract is eminently defensible.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
It is "eminently defensible"
but that doesn’t make it a great contract from the team’s point of view. I’ll grant, however, that it is “eminently defensible.”
Especially since
a 4 WAR player is worth more than twice a 2 WAR player, especially for the Cardinals, who have Pujols
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
not enough to cancel out the extra reward
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
...The cardinals are playoff favorites, even before the Holliday trade
Risk is more detrimental to our playoff odds than reward is beneficial.
I believe that it has been shown
that successful playoff teams should maximize:
1) Power hitting
2) Good defense
3) Frontline starting
4) shutdown relief pitching
Since we have no real HR threat behind Pujols (barring Rasmus developing further), adding holliday is probably pretty crucial to playoff success, IMO
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Hmmmmmm
What other team was going to bid for him and pay nearly this much?
I dunno, do you? There are two big market teams with holes in LF right now (Anaheim, NYY), and I think that Baltimore might have gotten into it at $15M or $16M AAV for the same length of contract and begun building around Holliday and their young core of position players (Wieters, Markakis, Jones) and pitching prospects.
Bottom line — you don’t know any more than the rest of us, and chances are Mo knows more than you do in this instance because he was doing the negotiating and you weren’t. You’re parsing on imperfect information here.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I'm not as confident as you are.
Apparently Mo wasn’t either or we wouldn’t have offered this contract.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Mozeliak has a nasty habit of over-paying
I’m not convinced he’s anywhere near as smart as some of his defenders think. He’s only in his 2nd year as a GM, and I think he’s been taken advantage of once or twice. The 2nd Lohse contract, the Holliday trade, the DeRosa trade, the Holliday contract. We’ve arguably over-paid on all these. I like Penny and think the deal was fair, but there’s a pretty good chance that someone like Brett Myers or Jose Contreras signs for like <$5m in February. The only cheapies he’s got are Lugo and the first Lohse deal.
I stand by my pre-Holliday belief that Mozeliak is a below-average GM. Not bad, not egregious, not great, just kinda mediocre.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 5:40 AM EST up reply actions
Really
because a lot of us were all over his nuts for getting a free Julio Lugo, a great 1 year deal for Lohse, a cheap John Smoltz . . . He’s had two instances of overpaying, imo – the second Lohse contract and the Joel Pineiro contract. Outside of that he’s made a bunch of deals at market value and some trades that we can endlessly debate the value of.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
Does he get absolved for the Piniero contract
given that Piniero picked up the slack and then some last year?
by arch support on Jan 6, 2010 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
Unless there's a coherent argument to be made
that his 2009 season was predictable at the time of the contract. . . then no. He got lucky. I
‘m highly skeptical that anyone can craft an argument that amounts to more than “well, we thought his stuff was better than his results”. If I recall correctly, the sinker he learned isn’t even a “normal” sinking pitch but some weird single seam adaptation.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
and iirc, something dunc told him to do after the 08 season, halfway into his contract.
so, not a pitch that won him the contract.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
well, this comment ignores how few contracts he's signed.
really, those are the two major FA contracts he’s negotiated. he’s handled some other minor ones (on which he’s arguably overpaid, though not to a huge extent: penny, franklin), but who else has he signed? i guess the first lohse contract.
on the trade front, there was certainly a substantial group of posters who thought he overpaid for holliday and especially derosa in terms of prospects. the khalil greene trade has been criticized, though more on the lack of due diligence than the overpay.
i won’t say i agree with every one of these criticisms, but he sure doesn’t have a rep as a sharp dealer in free agent negotiations.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
Ah I forgot about Franklin
to me, that extension showed a fundamental lack of understanding of how and when to deal with a player, advanced stats etc. etc. We signed him to an unnecessary extension to pitch in (I think) his age 37 or 38 season (!) when he’d had precisely two good seasons of bullpen pitching in his lengthy career, and when he was ALREADY signed for 2010.
I really, really, really hated that when it was done, just because it was SO unnecessary (if Franklin continued to be productive in 2010, presumably not 2009-type-productive as he’d NEVER been that good before and was lucky with BABIP, HR/FB AND LOB%, but kinda decent-set-up-guy-who-can-close-if-need-be-and-get-some-GBs productive, we could STILL have signed him to a similar contract. Fact was, Franklin was at the highest value he’d pretty much had in his CAREER, during a season which all the peripherals and his lengthy resume suggested was entirely unsustainable and likely unrepeatable, AND we had him for 2010 and likely an option to sign him to an extension later, AND then Mo still went ahead and did it).
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 7, 2010 5:49 AM EST up reply actions
FWIW
I think he’s good at identifying parts we need (pretty much everyone he’s acquired so far has been a good player, and has filled a requirement for us) but, so far, pretty bad at acquiring them at a good price.
My feeling is that GMs, in general, are getting better and better, with the increased acceptance of more advanced stats & scouting methods, and the worst of the “old school” gradually losing their jobs. It’s going to be harder and harder to put together a consistently winning team on a middling (or even high-middling) payroll, unless you have a GM who’s great at swinging below market-value deals, or a fantastic farm system. Whilst I like our scouting/development guys on the farm, the thing that worries me is that our minor league system is (at least until next year’s draft) one of the weakest in baseball, and our GM has shown no aptitude for acquiring players below market value. That’s not a recipe for sustained success.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 7, 2010 5:58 AM EST up reply actions
You do realize....
that if Walt was still here we wouldn’t have been in the payroll situation to even be bidding for Matt Holliday right? You can blame Mo on this if you want, but it’s DeWitt writing the checks and obviously Bill feels that his was a good deal for the Cardinals.
You very rarely, if ever, get an MVP level player to sign for less than market value, and this deal is EXACTLY market value, as multiple people have pointed out. We didn’t overpay, unless you make the naive assumption that nobody else was interested.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
my assumption is that no-one else was interested in 7 years or greatly exceeding $120m
that might be an incorrect assumption. I guess we don’t know. There certainly weren’t any credible rumours of any other teams being involved; that doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen, of course, but I assume if Boras had a $100m+ offer on the table from Boston, or NYY, or LAA or something, we’d have heard about it. I remain utterly unconvinced by the Baltimore rumours, and I expect Holliday would’ve had limited interest in going there if we got anywhere near what they were offering anyhow.
The market is dictated by demand, IMO, and it seemed like, after a couple of weeks of rumours suggesting that demand for Holliday was unexpectedly extremely low, we signed him to a huge deal that he might, with a prevailing wind, be worth, in $/WAR terms, in an offseason in which free agent values have been pretty low and everyone (so far) has had to settle for less than they wanted.
You do realize….
that if Walt was still here we wouldn’t have been in the payroll situation to even be bidding for Matt Holliday right? You can blame Mo on this if you want, but it’s DeWitt writing the checks and obviously Bill feels that his was a good deal for the Cardinals.
Yup. Jocketty is a pretty awful GM by modern (i.e. last couple of years) standards. I said Mo was merely below-average, so I prefer him to Walt. I don’t think it’s a terrible deal, and I’m excited to see Holliday, going forward, but I can’t help but feel that a more shrewd or hard-nosed GM could’ve got him for less, which was the feeling I got when we traded for him, and the feeling I got when we signed Lohse to a stupid deal, and the feeling I got when we traded for DeRo (even though I liked that trade up to a point), and the feeling I got when we signed Pineiro to his last deal. I think Mo has strengths, he’s good at identifying players that we need, but I think (so far) he’s been sub-optimal when it’s come to obtaining those players for a good price.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
it occurs to me, since he's staying... and the pie worked (kinda)...
WE CAN EAT ALL THIS PIE.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I actually have some coconut cream pie in the fridge
c’mon over everybody!* *
* * not fang or zoomzoom though
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
finished mine last night
holidays officially over
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
gawd i would kill for some good coconut cream pie
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Maybe I'm just an eternal optimist...
…but I have to believe that this makes it an absolute certainty that the Cards and Albert work together on a contract that won’t hamstring the franchise, and that Albert will make sure that his contract won’t make it impossible for the team to pursue deals in the near future.
"But I’m still hungry. I’ve got 10 fingers. There’s one that’s busy and I need nine more."
- Albert Pujols
well, glad that's over
not too thrilled with his defense, and dude better stay healthy, but I’m excited nonetheless. shoulda got a better deal though, try 16 mil per year at most
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 6:19 PM EST reply actions
That's only a mil different. Not THAT big of a deal for the baseball Cardinals.
You may run like Hayes, but you hit like shit.
true
they just overpaid a bit
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
6x16
don’t see why that wasn’t possible
who else would give that
hamfighters?
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
Why do you care about 1 million annually?
Mo, you can trade anything of mine.
by njnick on Jan 5, 2010 8:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
all told
it would be $23m less
not chicken feed
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
talking about 2 different things
Mo, you can trade anything of mine.
by njnick on Jan 5, 2010 11:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
$1 million might buy us, say, Russ Springer
who is a big upgrade over K-Mac/Boggs/whoever in middle relief.
Also, there’s an old GM adage – “look after the millions and the tens-of-millions will look after themselves”.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 5:41 AM EST up reply actions
1 million is less than 1% total annual payroll.
Im not going to get too worked about about it. If you the Cards want Springer they can afford him.
Mo, you can trade anything of mine.
That's an old GM adage?
That can’t be more than like 20 years old.
by arch support on Jan 6, 2010 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
It's naive to think the Cardinals were bidding against no one
when the Angels, Red Sox and Yankees could all easily make room for a left fielder. This talk that we’re bidding against ourselves is silly.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jan 5, 2010 6:19 PM EST reply actions 7 recs
it's true that our bid had to be
sufficiently high to keep others out of it but the only way any of those 3 were really going to get involved was if they smelled a real bargain. The Cards are better here as a result but are also stuck w/ a huge contract for 7 years when 6 would’ve sealed the deal. Is the 7th year a huge albatross? Probably not but at some point Mo has to call Boras’ bluff and dare him to go play for the O’s.
6 would’ve sealed the deal.
Look, I’m all for questioning the GM but I don’t understand this. Did Moezeliak think, “Let’s throw out another year just to screw ourselves down the line?” I doubt Mozeliak started at 7 years.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
How do we *know* six would have sealed the deal?
If it would have, wouldn’t it have?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jan 5, 2010 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
maybe we should have walked away before going to seven.
if we had to sign felipe lopez and smoltz instead, that wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
Maybe we should have.
But, that’s a different argument. How can we criticize Mo by stating that Holliday/Boras would have settled for a six-year deal when we don’t know know they would have so settled?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jan 5, 2010 6:35 PM EST up reply actions
that's not really the point.
in negotiation, you have a breaking point. if you stick to your breaking point, either the other party agrees to your terms or you break it off and do otherwise.
if holliday isn’t worth a 7y/$120m extension (which is an open question), then you have to stick to whatever you think is appropriate (6y/$100m) and be ready to walk away. if you don’t have a walk-away number (especially against scott boras), you’re just going to end up letting the other party run the negotiations. so, walking away and not getting screwed are two sides of the same coin.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
Agreed
Although this deal makes me think that payroll is probably going to go up to somewhere around $105-$110M or so over the next 4 seasons to make the team competitive. I think we’re going to see ownership spend more to try and win championships as they did in the early part of the decade. Maybe $120M was the walking away point — maybe they came down to where we were from their perch at $140M or whatever. We really don’t know.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I agree.
I think we will see a payroll increase to about $110MM to keep Yadi, Wainwright, Pujols, Holliday, and Rasmus.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jan 5, 2010 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
that is one hell of a core.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
But,
the Cards aren’t going to trial and getting a six-year deal. It’s a seventh year or no Matt Holliday and we needed Matt Holliday in our lineup as much as he needed our contract, if not more. Perhaps seven years was the Cards’ walkaway number, which, if true, one can certainly quibble and I’m more than open to the quibbling. But, again, how do we know that seven years wasn’t Boras and Holliday’s last and best offer? We don’t. All I am questioning is how we can criticize the deal because it is seven years in length and six years would have been enough to sign Holliday when we were not in the room and are not privy to the negotiations’ back-and-forth?
All we have heard of the negotiations is what Heyman has echoed from Scott Boras. I’m not willing to criticize based on that.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jan 5, 2010 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly...
six is better than seven, but seven is better than zero.
Everyone wants to focus on how few teams were in on Holliday, but how about how few runs we scored last year… and how few options we had to improve if we didn’t sign him.
4-6 more WAR in 2010!
yeppers
I am not happy about the years, but I am giddy about having Holliday back.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Also,
most of the “chatter” earlier today talked about an eight year deal proposed by the Cardinals (at, presumably about the same total, or maybe the $128M mentioned several times). Holliday asked for, apparently, one year less in order to raise the AAV. (Well, OK, probably Boras, but…)
So the Cards seemed to be willing to go up to 8 (eight!) years but at a lower AAV. Six would definitely have been preferable, but it might have taken $18-19M/yr to get Holliday to say yes.
by ArkansasTravs on Jan 5, 2010 9:52 PM EST up reply actions
I have to agree with this
even if Holliday didn’t figure into the Yankees plans, you’d have to figure there was a price point where they’d say, “eh, screw it,” and just sign him. Hard to think that something like 5/80 wouldn’t prompt that attitude. Then again, there’s a lot of space between 5/80 and 7/120.
yeah
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
you missed a verb, there
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
"make" room
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
jacoby ellsbury
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Right
There’s no way they’d pass up on Matt Holliday because of Jacoby Ellsbury. If Holliday was available at the right price they’d be on it. We just don’t know what the right price was.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
oh come on
he’s broken 2 WAR once. and his 3.3 WAR in ‘08 looks to be entirely due to a huge outlier in UZR that is way out of line with his career. regress him the appropriate 0.5 WAR and he projects as 1.4 WAR player. i’ll even be generous and give him 1.7 WAR on the assumption that his true UZR is somewhere between 6.9 of ’08 and -18.3 of ’09
jacoby ellsbury does not block matt holliday by any stretch of the imagination
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
UZR has his defense fluctuating a lot
However, both the fans scouting report and scouts think VERY highly of his defense. I would call him +5 going forward. His offense is slightly below average, but steals help him. He’s -5 as a hitter. That makes an average player, who is still under team control for the next 3 years.
The Red Sox would NOT pay 17 million for a 3 WAR upgrade, the only reason the Cardinals are going so high is because Craig is probably only a 1 WAR player in left, and I doubt the FO has confidence in him to even do that.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 6, 2010 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
There is no way they would pay 17 million a year for a 2 WAR upgrade.
But Ellsbury has a lot of value as a “name” player as a trade centrepiece. What if the Padres would consider Ellsbury as a big part of any deal for A-Gon?
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 7, 2010 6:00 AM EST up reply actions
Hey guys,
I was actually the one offering Matt 6/100. He was going to juggle oranges and perform random acts of kindness for the elderly. His damn wife wanted the 7th year though. Leslee knows how to finagle.
You may run like Hayes, but you hit like shit.
by flipthebird on Jan 5, 2010 10:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Leslee has to prove herself
Dee Dee sets a high bar
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
MOAR LEGO!
(anybody got the original gif?)
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
on the other hand...
@GoElBirdos Cubs fan friend of mine is literally too flustered to speak.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Also rumored....
Holliday getting $60M per nut hit by that fly ball in the NLDS.
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
by zoomzoomj88 on Jan 5, 2010 6:21 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
TIMMEH K SPEAKS
“I can’t tell you how many players I’ve talked to who’ve played in St. Louis who say: I wanna play here for the rest of my life.”
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jan 5, 2010 6:22 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
"he loves it, he lives it, and there's absolutely no chance he's going to get fat and lazy"
thankyouTim.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
If that really was a quote, I believe it
he might venture into sucktitude because of age or injury, but you can tell by looking at the guy that he wont get fat or lazy
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Tim Kurkjian, man. Timmeh.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Quote continues:
“…provided they fork over more money than Jason Bay got, ‘cause if not, fuck em. I’ll play in Baltimore.”
by arch support on Jan 5, 2010 6:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It's because of the PIE
MOAR PIES for everyone!!
"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."
--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre
Ugh.
This could look really, really ugly in 2017.
if the payroll in 2017 is 110M
we still have 93M left!
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
FUCK
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
we should offer an extension right now
I want Tung Po!
by ILoveTheSt.LouisCardinals on Jan 5, 2010 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
Ask him if he'll promise to finish his career in St. Louis
Then starts “Holliday to Yankees” rumors if he delays giving a concrete answer.
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
haha
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
HA!
No option year pick up MO! Balls of steel!
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
backloaded or frontloaded makes a difference
The AAV is $17 MM but we don’t know the year by year breakdown. Could be structured like ARod’s ($32M in 2010 to $20M in 2017) or like Bay’s which has a $8.5M bonus, $6.5M salary in 2010 and $16M in 2011-2013.
17 every year
per boras
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
well
i get this doesn’t necessarily mean that
5:40pm: MLB.com’s Matthew Leach reports the deal will be finalized when Holliday passes his physical, and hears from Holliday agent Scott Boras that the deal will pay the outfielder an even $17MM per season (via Twitter).
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I think that's the case though
Holliday kinda alluded to that in his interview on ESPN Radio.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
seems too vanilla
of a contract for Boras. $17M for seven years, NTC and $1M option buyout. Where the plane trips, three room suites on the road, preferred seating tickets, polo lessons for the kids.
I would have thought he’d have some signing bonus but then again he missed last tax year.
the yankees will take him in 2014
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
i hate to say this,
but STFU
c’mon gdm, put the kid in his place
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
what the hell?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
don't be posting crap like that
it’s a major buzzkill
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
it would potentially be a good thing.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
see, and now i have to take this whole subthread back
I crossed the threads and thought you were talking about Pujols.
My goodness, fang might be right?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
oh god no
pujols + in yankees uniform = fang in tears and very pissed at mo
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
he'll end his career as their DH
get used to it, it’s gonna happen
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
maybe end it there
but i guarantee he won’t sign with them to be a dh. they’ll be dhing teixeira if they want albert
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
So could Demi Moore,
but I’ll take my chances. :)
"But I’m still hungry. I’ve got 10 fingers. There’s one that’s busy and I need nine more."
- Albert Pujols
101 will replay the Gottleib interview shortly.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Makes the Bay contract look really good
I don’t dislike Holliday, but we definately negotiated as if he had all the leverage. I’m sure other teams wanted Holliday, but for 7 years? I doubt it.
Just like the Lohse contract, Mo was way to quick with the trigger. You have to play a little hardball as a gm.
The Lohse contract was over the top
but Matt Holliday is no Kyle Lohse.
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
true, but 120 Million is no 40 million
I’m just pointing out we have a history of overpaying when extending player’s contracts.
This wasn't an extension.
This was a free agent signing on the open market.
Who have we overpaid for when extending? Pujols? Molina? Wainwright? No one hates the Lohse contract more than me, but it doesn’t reflect a tendancy.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jan 5, 2010 6:36 PM EST up reply actions
lohse was a pree agent, too, no?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
He would have been
but that deal got done before the 2008 season actually concluded, so it’s kind of an extension I guess.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
i thought he signed
literally the day after the season ended
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
they held him out of the last game he was supposed to pitch
just to work on the deal. Didn’t want him to blow out a shoulder and not be able to sign
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Keep in mind that free agency doesn't start until November.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jan 5, 2010 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
maybe you should capitalize it.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
SMOLTZ
(like this?)
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
I know how I'll feel about this
if we don’t extend pujols.
Dots Miller for HOF. 'cuz a name means everything!
yeah
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
well there's no way they made this deal without considering that first
doesn’t make anything certain, but should put us all at ease just a bit more.
that's actually
rhe part that worries me. the contingency plan.
Dots Miller for HOF. 'cuz a name means everything!
I am listening to Matt Holliday failing to actually describe the terms of his contract.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
damn you Boras!!!!!!!!
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
oh, he knows the terms
i don’t buy otherwise for a second
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
no there was a lot of mumbling and stumbling
like right now
[ho-hum, slightly bored voice] “Yeah, I’m excited about it.”
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
haha, i noticed that
YOU SOUND PRETTY EXCITED
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
"somebody hasn't forgot the dropped ball..."
they say skeptically on 101
OF COURSE WE HAVEN’T.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Well, personally, I like it...
In 6 years, 17 million will be more like 10 million.
And better spending 17 million on a great player, than 10 on an average one that had a career year. Or two of them.
In 6 years, 17 million will be more like 10 million.
Yes, money sure has changed since 2004.
by Mister Eff on Jan 5, 2010 6:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
We have new 10s and 5s do we not???
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
by ducttape16 on Jan 5, 2010 6:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And quarters don't have bees on them anymore!
by Mister Eff on Jan 5, 2010 6:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
that's like 25 centiquids.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jan 5, 2010 6:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
centiquid inflation is steep!
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 5:47 AM EST up reply actions
mmmmmmmmmmm, not quite
I get what you’re trying to say, but you’re talking about double-digit inflation, which isn’t likely to happen, or FA value being nearly 60% higher than it is now. I don’t see that happening either.
I would guess that $17M in 2016 will be around $14M in their dollars.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
but think about it this way
did holliday even get what he was expecting to get on the open market?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
No
I think he was expecting to get $20M a year and he’s far short of that. I would guess 7Y$140M was what he really, really wanted and the market just dictated that he wasn’t going to get that.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
so MARKET adjusted (not necessarily inflation adjusted)
he still could be a steal in 2017.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:55 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe
depends on how the business of baseball is doing in 7 years and I think it’s hard to say for sure at this point, and how healthy and productive he can be at that time.
Just hope he’s more like Larry Walker and not Brian Giles
I really don’t want to see sub-.800 OPS numbers from Holliday in his age 34-35 and 37 seasons.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I'd actuallly not complain too much
about 5200 PA’s of an OBP-heavy 137 OPS+ over the next 7 years…
Giles is actually a pretty good-case scenario for H. Over that period, Giles would have been worth something like 170M, assuming a WAR is worth $4.5M.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
Agreed
I’m just hoping for Larry Walker, LMAO.
I was specifically referring to the age 35-37 seasons for both. Walker was pretty productive to the end and was an above average fielder over that time too. Giles has been below average defensively and offensively for 3 of the past 4 seasons. I would not like to see this happen.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
My first thought was Brian Giles was awesome till last year
I still hope the Cardinals sign him
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 5, 2010 8:17 PM EST up reply actions
So, which current Cardinals should we not get too attached to
because they’re gone once they hit FA eligibility?
Wainwright, Molina and maybe Rasmus?
Waino.
Molina and Pujols are a unit. Raz will get locked down Evan Longoria-style.
"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR
he does have a kid to think about.
and what baseball town is so idyllic and full of pie for a young kid
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
braintwin #2.
that’s what I was thinking.
*Ghostrider isn’t around, so I guess you’re it. congrats?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
he can ride away in a limo right now for all i care.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
I am not worrying about that yet , as it regards Wainwright
that’s so far down the road, we don’t even know if he will still have an arm left
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
luddy
and probably yadi
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Carp
Waino has a nice club option for 2012 ($9M) & 2013 ($12M) and Carp has a $1 M buyout in 2012. Also Waino’s club options vest if he finishes in the top 5 of CY Young voting in 2010 or 2011.
both?
so he needs one cy young vote next season for both options to vest? i love waino, but that seems like a gimme
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
it has to be '10 & 11
09 means nothing
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
next season is not '09
but that answers my question. thanks
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I certainly hope
that those options end up being vested.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Carp's likely to not get re-signed
unless he’s willing to sign for under market, probably substantially so.
by ArkansasTravs on Jan 5, 2010 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
i think it needs to be considered
if we even want carp around in 2013
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
i'm so, so hoping he takes over as coach
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
me too
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
but
i think he’ll want to pitch in 2013. unless he’s completely broke down
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
he already is
saved our season by righting Wainer early in the summer
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
true, true.
but… he’d need a binder of his own. should we really be risking his fingers while he’s an active player?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Somebody will have to pry that binder out of Dunc's cold dead fingers.....
I could only think of a couple of people up for that.
* is an Asshat
Carp does seem to read it on a regular basis, though.
so he’ll need one of his own.
maybe Wainer can give him a tablet and stylus with optional touchscreen.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
True
he’ll be what, 36, 37 then? The idea of him staying with the Cards in some capacity, say a roving pitching instructor, is very appealing to me.
by ArkansasTravs on Jan 6, 2010 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
y'know... I know it's wrong and horrible but I wouldn't be as sad if Pujols walked...
if we couldn’t keep Wainwright.
(also I would still be more sad if Pujols walked without taking Yadi with him. I’m weird, I know.)
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
er, I don't know if that sentence even makes sense.
but you know what I mean.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I think I get it
It’d be sadder to see Waino go. I agree. As much as I love Pujols, I don’t think I’d cry if we got a ridiculous spread of talent for him.
yeah
I’d probably trade him now for someone like Longoria, or maybe even Utley or HanRam.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 5:50 AM EST up reply actions
7 years - better than 8 years
this is my new tagline
"The outfield is deep and playing him straight-away, and the infield is the same, except first, second, third, and short are playing him to pull."
-Mike Shannon
remember when Boras wanted 8/$160mn?
this is better than that. i’ll bet we average +2 surplus WAR every year over the life of the contract. which is not to say that i won’t be complaining about it in 2016, but it’s probably a pretty good deal for the Cards.
bait and switch.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
He wanted a longer guaranteed deal
Sure, the money was better, but that wasn’t what he wanted.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Boras floated 8/160 as a starting point
It’s no different than when Damon asked for 90something, or it took 200M to even talk about Beltran, or 300M to even talk about A-Rod.
Not afraid to nitpick
I wish BCB would hurry up and start crying
over this deal, lamenting their diminishing prospects in the Central over the next few years. That would make me feel better about this deal.
Al killed it...
with his interminable nostalgia.
No one cares about the photos!!!
4-6 more WAR in 2010!
no, they've been busily debating whether
2010 should be pronounced “two thousand ten” or “twenty ten.” Asshats.
two-zero-one-zero
that’s how I refer to it
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
what is it in binary
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I was told there would be no code
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 5, 2010 6:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
awesome.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
Heeheehee
I want to hug this entire sub-thread.
by peach concrete on Jan 5, 2010 7:05 PM EST up reply actions
peach!
this post needs a math geek’s touch.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
EVERY post needs a math geek's touch
let me go try to calcalate 2010 in base suck
by peach concrete on Jan 5, 2010 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
don't say it gdm, don't f'ing say it
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
You provided your own FILTER!
Good gdm.
by peach concrete on Jan 6, 2010 12:36 AM EST up reply actions
i'm trying to be an all around better poster
we’ll see how it works out
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
102 AC
(After championship)
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
by ducttape16 on Jan 5, 2010 6:51 PM EST up reply actions 10 recs
Anytime I'm sad
I just remember that the Cardinals have a championship in the new Busch Stadium, but the Cubs don’t have one in the park they’ve called home since 1916.
We're going through a new avatar test phase here at mojowo11. Please be patient as we may try a variety of new ideas over the coming days and weeks.
I know...
Stupid Yankees ruined the best joke ever of “what do the Cubs and Yankees have in common… no championships in the new stadium…”
jackasses
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
Am I the only one
that thinks the season counts for nothing if the Yankees win the Series? What a waste of a perfectly good year.
"Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." --Churchill
sometimes the dragon wins.
Sad fact of life, I guess. Still, can’t imagine there being much satisfaction when you win the way the yankees do.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
is there any doubt the yankees repeat?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I figure they have one the best teams ever this year
On paper, anyway. We’ll see if they stay healthy.
We're going through a new avatar test phase here at mojowo11. Please be patient as we may try a variety of new ideas over the coming days and weeks.
Haven't they for the past ten years?
Only won it twice
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Jan 6, 2010 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
If there's one thing I know how to do
it’s make the ladies feel better.
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
that's awesome
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
It was sitting there on a tee
not sure why no one else jumped on it before I did…
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
they've been consistently disappointing for months.
the most we can squeeze out of them is persistent DeRomanticism. they don’t show up to their own rivalry.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I do not udnerstand the gnashing of teeth
this deal values Holliday right around 4 WAR (assuming $4.8M/WAR) which is what most projections have him at.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
personally i like the years/money
the NTC makes my skin crawl.
but you don’t have skin…?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Beltre was never an option
wanted a coast. and not the river coast.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
False
Beltre took fewer years and fewer dollars to play in Boston. Also, this is remarkably hindsighty — would you have guessed this prior to those signings. ALSO, the risk assessment isn’t the same for multiple (older) players than one elite hitter.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
and then what happens in 2011
or 2012…….or 2013……….
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
exactly
or +1, or “this”
fuck it, I am just gonna rec it
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
go all out, matty!!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
last time he did that bad things happened
baaaaaaaaaaaaaaddddd things
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
I like it...
Holliday seems likely to age ok. The AAV is reasonable, the length is reasonable. He’ll likely be pretty good when he’s 36.
4-6 more WAR in 2010!
that's couched in absolute terms
when we are dealing in a contextual situation, namely that of a mid-market team with a limited payroll. Big contracts that sour in their later years can kill a team like that for years. That’s what everyone is worried about. Was there a way to acquire the same value over the short term for less money, without leaving ourselves vulnerable in the long term should the worst come to pass.
The Cardinals have a higher marginal revenue for those 4-5 wins that Holliday provides though.
They should be willing to pay more for them since they are likely the difference between making the playoffs and not.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
I like this line of thinking
couple this with DeWitt saying he would expand payroll if needed, and I might be alright with overlooking the years.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I don't like this line of thinking
It’s like saying “Wins in June are not as valuable as wins in September”
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~
it's not at all like that.
a club that is a perennial contender gets more of a bump in going from 84 wins to 87 or 87 to 90 than a basement dweller does in going from 72 wins to 75 wins. a holliday-type player will make a more meaningful difference for a good team than he will for a bad one.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
by tom s. on Jan 5, 2010 7:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The NTC is what bugs me
If he turns into a turkey we can’t just deal him somewhere else.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
because
if he turns into a turkey everyone will be banging down our door to pay $17MM for him?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
No
but we could package him somewhere and eat some dollars. It’s not like this contract is Vernon Wells awful, it’s not. The problem lies in the fact that we’ll have to deal him somewhere that HE WANTS TO GO, which limits the market considerably.
We got extremely lucky with the Rolen deal for Glaus I thought, considering the situation we were in and his NTC. I don’t see that happening again.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
TLR is NTC antidote
Maybe TLR’s secret weapon is his ability to drive NTC players away until they’ll even agree to go to Canada!!! Useful skill, that.
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
by Titus Pullo on Jan 5, 2010 7:01 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
haha
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
White Sox traded for Juan Pierre's half year of decent production
You never know when someone will take at least part of an awful contract off your hands.
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the salary creates a virtual no trade anyway
there just aren’t many teams who can afford it, or will be able to and if he stinks — which is the reason we’d want to trade him — we’ll have to eat the salary in order to do it anyway. I don’t see the big deal. It’s the 7th year I don’t like.
The NTC and the 7th year are one in the same thing chuck --
they are a lack of options for the team.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Because the largest contracts weren't factored into that yet
Of course it will appear to sit low in that instance.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
Lackey was signed
Beltre was signed, Cameron was signed, Byrd was signed. All of the “big” free agents besides Holliday and Bay were signed. Bay’s was a bad signing, and so is Holliday.
Here's a link to what you said previously
7/108
And I came up with a similar valuation in a comment a while back.
The difference between 7/108 and 7/120 is a half win valuation in 2010. If you are telling me that metrics are so refined (and that public metrics are that close to proprietary ones) that you can’t conceive of a scenario where this contract makes sense, I think you’re being revisionist and unreasonable.
As to the $/WAR, I’ll be happy to eat crow if it winds up below 4M per year at the end of the offseason. Right now, we’re both left with unfalsifiable positions.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
Fuck you SBN.
7/108 — And I came up with a similar valuation in a comment a while back.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
Face it Az.
The man hates Matt Holliday. lol
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
funny
cos he was one of the guys saying that holliday is a guy we should trade for when everyone was yelling NOOOOOO
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
i blame you VEP.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
VEP was? I remember a lot of stewing about not getting someone else back in July....
He just didn’t want to give up what was required to get him, and, as always, OUR management gets fleeced every time. I just don’t agree that Mo is getting kicked around in all of these negotiations and it seems like everything except the best case scenario for the Cardinals is a total failure worthy of swear words every time.
I don’t think this is horrible deal for us personally, and paying a little more than what VEP’s “set in stone” market value to get a great player doesn’t seem like a giant travesty to me.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I didn't not want Holliday at the trade deadline last year
I was very pissed, however, when they gave up Wallace to get him.
Yah
that’s what I thought. Does Wallace being moved off of first base by two other teams change your mind at all?
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Generally
when you’re trading for the best LF in the game, you’re going to have to give up one of your top 2 prospects, and I’m sure glad it wasn’t Rasmus. If we’d given them less, Beane would have been getting fleeced publicly — no GM is going to do that when he’s guaranteed two draft picks by not making the trade.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
i'll also admit
that toronto playing him at 1B does not bode well for my stance
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
that's fine
i’m definitely not digging through game threads and fanposts from june to prove that you were advocating the trade
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
i think that might be true
and the the coors effect was overblown
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Didn't you say the same thing of Johnny Damon
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 5, 2010 8:32 PM EST up reply actions
But it was the other way around
You cited his home vs away splits to say he was over rated.
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 5, 2010 8:45 PM EST up reply actions
Right, that's his fair market value, I don't disagree with that
However, when you consider that A) NOBODY else would have offered a deal this large (yes, I’m not 100% sure but pretty close), and B) There were other options we could have had in free agency (Smoltz, Lopez, Sheets) who when signed in conjuncture would have provided similar value to Holliday – I think this is a bad deal.
but here's the point
while smoltz, lopez, and sheet might be worth similar value in 2010, what happens in 2011 and beyond?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
what you consider stability in LF
I consider roster flexibility
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~
for what though?
you can’t exactly just purchase five and a half WAR from your local quiktrip every november.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 7:58 PM EST up reply actions
I don't see
a 5 WAR LF in there anywhere.
Alfredo Amezaga FLA
Pat Burrell TB
Eric Byrnes ARI
Frank Catalanotto MIL
Carl Crawford TB
Coco Crisp KC
Michael Cuddyer MIN *
David DeJesus KC *
Adam Dunn WAS
Jermaine Dye CWS
Jody Gerut MIL
Jose Guillen KC
Willie Harris WAS
Brad Hawpe COL *
Geoff Jenkins PHI
Austin Kearns WAS
Jason Kubel MIN *
Magglio Ordonez DET *
Marcus Thames DET
Jayson Werth PHI
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
that's not what he was saying
but now that you post that list, i don’t see three players that will come exceptionally sheaper than their production. DDJ is the only name that jumps out at me
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
and his option
will get picked up, that’s what the asterisk means, team or player option.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Werth is probably something approaching 5 WAR
but I’m underwhelmed by what everyone else keeps labeling an epic free agent class.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
>swoon<
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
how many WAR is dreaminess!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I need you get to the ball rolling on
a SABR stat of Ugly people. Ugly is the new moneyball.
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 5, 2010 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
Damn you Randy Johnson!
Why did you have to retire now
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 5, 2010 8:47 PM EST up reply actions
That's not as fun as looking up pictures of cute people.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
WHERE'S MY SHIRT!
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 8:55 PM EST up reply actions
is anyone else disturbed by fang yelling at CG for his shirt....?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
oh good, he was yelling at Flim
I guess that’s… better.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
way to start shit.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 8:57 PM EST up reply actions
in my experience
the guy yelling Where’s my shirt at random moments is the one starting things…
just, y’know, in my experience.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
woah
comma win
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~
i've been telling women that for years
it never works
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
better hope that's true, now that DeRo's gone.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Look at the pitchers available.
In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his recievers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
I'm not saying we need to sign a 5 WAR player
I’m not sure why that’s such a huge deal, it’s starting to sound like the “protection” argument you get from La Russa. Werth and Crawford are both 3-4 WAR players, and DeJesus is a 2-3 WAR player.
So we have to sign two guys to
get 5 WAR, and Werth or Crawford + FA 3B, SS, or 2B is going to be less than $17M AAV?
That’s what we’re saying. This was a pretty good use of resources.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
FlopSholtz...
as a reasonable alternative to Holliday seems like quite a stretch. That’s a one win upgrade at third over Freese – and maybe we’ll get Tejada anyway. Smoltz and Sheets can’t be on the same roster, b/c we don’t have enough starting spaces. A Smoltz/Sheets flyer isn’t even precluded by this signing. If they really want Smoltz at $4 million or whatever they should have the nickels to bring him back. We’re only at about $95 million for 2010.
4-6 more WAR in 2010!
+1
I don’t know how anyone thinks that we can just keep signing starters at our hearts content with only 5 rotation spot available. Hell, we should just keep signing 1B options too then, because there’s a lot of 1B that can hit — screw it, we’ll figure out somewhere to play them.
Sure, you can’t have enough pitching, but when signing FA pitchers, you have to find somewhere to actually pitch them before they’ll sign with you. You can’t just hide them in the bullpen or in the minor leagues until you need them due to an injury.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
True
But I still think it makes sense to sign a 5th starter like Smoltz. Those other guys in the system — Garcia, Boggs, whatever — those guys we CAN stash in the minors or bullpen until one of the rotation guys goes down.
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Oh
so do I. I think Sheets or Smoltz would be a good signing since I don’t think Garcia should get north of 100 innings this season coming off of Tommy John.
But to state that we can get both Sheets and Smoltz instead of Holliday is a bit ridiculous.
I’d like to see us sign Smoltz or Sheets and Kiko Calero and then be done unless Eric Hinske or Branyan can play 3B and come cheap.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
agree, and have all along
in part because one matty booboo and your lineup just lost 17m worth of production. apu is the only guy near 30 i’d trust with a 7 year deal. period.
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
What makes Apu a better injury risk than Holliday?
Other than wishful thinking?
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
My SBN screenname may actually be a ticking timebomb of a jinx
Or was that the plan all along???
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
too many mattys to really tell
as stated elsewhere, matt on VEB is like batting in a hitter’s park. you get a wittyness adjustment in your stats.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
No wonder my projections always disappoint me...
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
don't let it get to you matty, Yadi is just jealous
at least us matty(s) get to get past 2nd base!
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
well, *I* don't get past 2nd
there are More, though.
just remove the nickname adjustment, and all of a sudden you’re automatically 3-5 WAR better than the rest of the blog, all without doing a thing.
*wit above replacement
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
LMAO
So if we pay Holliday only $16M for 6Y what does that bring the market up to? I bet it’s north of $3.8M per WAR!
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
How does the Wallace Deal look now?
I’m not worried about the money. If this were $17/4 yrs., I think everyone would be doing cartwheels. It’s a lot of years. I’m not sure what his output will be at 35 and 36.
On the other hand, I think this makes the Wallace deal look better. Throwing away Wallace for a couple month rental who drops the ball in the ninth with two outs would have been tough to swallow. Now Wallace is the price of roping in Holiday for potentially 8 years.
Plus, it doesn’t hurt that Billie Bean sent Wallace packing to Toronto this off season.
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
i disagree
now it looks like we overplayed twice
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I don't think we overpaid
I think this is just compensation under the current market. We didn’t get a deal, but neither did he get a windfall. We’re paying market rates for wins.
The key is the last couple of years. That’s where the risk is. Could work out, but it may not.
But we wouldn’t have landed Holliday if we hadn’t traded for him. (Obviously, I can’t prove that, but it seems proven by the fact that were were basically the sole suitor. That wouldn’t have happened if he weren’t already on the team, and if he didn’t bat .350 with 13 homers in essentially two months.)
So we are paying for the right to be competitive during Carp and Pujols’ prime years. Wallace couldn’t provide that as a player. But as a trade, he brought in Holliday.
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
by Titus Pullo on Jan 5, 2010 6:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
perhaps this is the best way to look at it
In terms of pure WAR value, we may have generally underpaid for the first half of his contract, and overpaid for the latter half. Given that the the first half of his contract coincides with the prime years of Albert, Waino, Carp, Yadi etc, the Cards were willing to make that deal. I admit it seems reasonable when you think about it like that.
In terms of the Wallace deal
two other teams determining that he can’t play 3B at the MLB level pretty well tells me that it was the right trade. I don’t think signing Holliday now makes a whole lot of difference on that, one way or another. Hard to tell if we wouldn’t have had a shot at him for 7Y$120M as a free agent without trading for him first — on the bright side, we still have our first round pick next year and hopefully two supplemental picks if Piniero ever lands somewhere.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
i say we do
the market is still the same whether holliday ends the season as a cardinal or not
i guess it’s a question of wallace or the cards first round pick in ‘10. we’ll seee
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I do think it helps to play here though
How much is the question, but I do feel like players appreciate the Cardinals more after actually being a Cardinal.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Except
Edgar Renteria, but he saved us from ourselves anyway I think.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
if i remember correctly he earned the value of that particular deal
its his current one that hurts
and boston may have some complaints
Yes, I agree with this
Wallace was always trade bait. Perhaps we’d be better off using him to get Doc Halliday instead of Holliday, but really, we got a really damn valuable player for our trade chip, and we locked him up long term.
As much as people complained about Jocketty, this is the type of thing that he did repeatedly, to great benefit to the team. It’s too expensive to do CONSTANTLY, but when you have the wrong prospect, and a great player that fits is availible…
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
LEE
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Fair enough,
But even he is due a big payday soon enough, and I am also inclined to value starters over outfielders, and we have a pretty stacked (at least in terms of deals) rotation at the moment, anyway.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Don't view them as closely correlated
The question is if we didn’t make the trade last year, and made the same offer to Holliday now, would he still sign. I have a fairly strong opinion that the answer to that question is “yes”. Of course it is all speculation, but I believe we still had to come with the best financial offer to get him and I believe that is what we did.
I think the only way you can judge the Holliday trade is based on what Holliday did last year, and then whatever we see Wallace, Mortensen, Peterson do for the next 6 or so.
I was personally against the trade, but that is over with. This deal is probably pretty fair. I wanted less years like everyone else, but 17M seems about where I figured it would be. I’m not excited about it overall, though I think this next season ought to be a very good one. I’m not upset about it, even though I’m sure this contract will be a problem in 5-7 years. I’m kinda just meh on it, and interested in how they fill out the roster now.
by Merry CRasmus on Jan 5, 2010 7:15 PM EST up reply actions
If it weren't for the ntc, I wouldn't mind
That being said, the ntc is a problem, when you’re projecting a big deal like this over seven years
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
But, as azru said, the NTC would have kicked in when he reached 10/5 status anyway
And before that point the likelihood of him being traded was pretty much nil anyway.
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yeah, that's a point
I always forget about the 10/5 thing
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
EFF YOU 101
playing the Madonna song.
no moar puns dear GOB
I wanna be able to spell “holiday” again
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
sorry, man.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
of your wife or Holliday?
…wait.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jan 5, 2010 6:57 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
haha!
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
Well, since we've locked up LF and will hopefully lock up 1B long term
basically any position player with a bat but without a position in our ML system will just have to be released or traded eventually.
luckily, we only have 27 or so of those.
that is one of the undiscussed ugly sides of this contract; if you gave chase utley a seven-year contract, you can move him to LF or 3B or 1B if you have to. if we’re going to keep pujols and holliday, we’ve locked up the whole right-end of the defensive spectrum. if holliday’s knees go, we can’t shift him to 1B.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
by tom s. on Jan 5, 2010 6:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
we could probably trade him to a DH team though
and with the minor leaguers coming up, if they can’t play somewhere besides 1B or LF, we are gonna need to trade them for help anyway.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
not Matt, the minor leaguers
NTC can be worked around.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
?
we could probably trade him to a DH team though
“him” isn’t holliday?
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
I caught myself mid posting
I think NTC are workable.
Odds are he will blow up with the 75 year old LaRussa by then anyway.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
meh. we don't need old man la russa.
oquendo could just refuse to let him play for team puerto rico forever.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
by tom s. on Jan 5, 2010 6:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I hate having to defend deals
it isn’t nearly as much fun as just tearing the Front Office a new one. Got to get some stuff done tonight.
My opinion, FWIW:
1) The dollars are spot on for his value
2) The years are unsavory but likely necessary to sign him
3) The NTC is, imo, largely a formality. With a contract this size it would be incredibly difficult to deal him anyway. This isn’t the same as the Lohse NTC.
4) If the Cardinals graduate a few more prospects to the majors, they’ll be able to cope with this commitment easily. Boras is right in that they’ve got the dollars.
5) Poor Allen Craig.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
We should trade him for Hanley Ramirez
But only if the Marlins will eat the full cost
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
STRIAGHT UP
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
The way I see it
Allen Craig can be traded now. He won’t get in the Majors at left now that we have Holliday, and it’s apparent the club won’t call him up to play 3rd.
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
he needs to be considered at 3B
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I agree
but the Cards haven’t done it yet, and I don’t know if they ever will.
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
probably not
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Craig is a lot older than you think
25, 26 in july
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
i thought luddy had another arb year after this one
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Ludwick will have one more arb year after this one
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I hope Ludwick is with us long enough
for the GOBs to make up for that “call” in the nlds
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Or he becomes the mark derosa/scott spiezie supersub next year
and if he hits, Luddy probably has decent value as a trade candidate.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
Addendum to 3
This really is only pertinent for the first 4 years. After that he’s a 10-5 player and it’s an NTC anyway.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
great point
MO, you sneaky bastard!
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
10-5 player
define?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
ahh
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I dunno, sounds like a curveball.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
wow
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
really?
is it that surprising that i didn’t immediately remember a caveat in the CBA?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
kind of because you seem like a really smart dude who knows a lot
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
i don't know shit, actually!
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
who?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
dead? i thought he was still missing.
that’s what my milk carton says.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
after so long, the odds go down....
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
there was no free candy in that van.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
there never is.
damn you Fredbird.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
is the van down by the river?
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
can i post my pics? i've got two pics that totally work right now
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
can craig play right field?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 6:52 PM EST reply actions
my thoughts exactly
they say he can play all corners (but I’m willing to bet his ability to play RF is about like his ability to play 3B), so he could be a cheap replacement for Luddy
exactly
ludwick will be walking in a few years, and that could be craig’s opportunity.
in the mean time, i’m begging and pleading the club to at least give him a shot at third.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
we need to see what we have in him
so we can trade ludwick and get some value out him. no way we can extend him now
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
no one will take ludwick.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 7:13 PM EST up reply actions
...for a while.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Not without dumping a viable second base option on us
Wait.
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I'm sure we could, If Ludwick can have a big year this year.
He’s still young enough and cheap enough, that if he can rebound, some GM will take him and try to extend him before his last year of arbitration. We could potentially get some needed pitching prospects from him next offseason.
wat
you kidding me?
i’d take luddy if i were another team. even if ‘09 is his true talent level. that’s solid production
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
we wouldn't get much for him, though
at this stage in his arby he’s not getting paid much less than you could just sign one of the second-tier OF free agents for. When Mike Cameron is only getting $16m or whatever it was for two years, I doubt anyone is giving away decent value for Ryan Ludwick at $7m or whatever he’ll make in his last arby year.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 6:03 AM EST up reply actions
okay, moving on...
who is the 5th starter now? I’m scared.
I have a love/hate relationship with the Cardinals' middle relief corps. | Cards on Cards
JAIME
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by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
that's fine
but don’t we need like 3 Jaimes to roll the dice with and hope that one of them is okay? and it’s not like our top 4 guys all have the most stable history…
I have a love/hate relationship with the Cardinals' middle relief corps. | Cards on Cards
i agree
but for next year it still lines up nicely:
1. carpenter—finished #2 in cy voting
2. waino—finished #3 in cy voting
3. lohse—VEP tells me he should do better next year
4, 5. take your picks
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by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 7:05 PM EST up reply actions
knew i was forgetting somebody...
4. brad penny—perfect duncan reclamation project
5. take your pick from hawksworth, jaime, boggs, etc
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by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 7:10 PM EST up reply actions
5.
take your pick has kinda sucked the last few years, though. I know a lot of teams can say that as well, but when I’m not so certain about 1 through 4 holding up, I’m a bit nervous.
I have a love/hate relationship with the Cardinals' middle relief corps. | Cards on Cards
our "take your pick" depth has gotten MUCH better in the last year or so.
you could easily say that this signing was brought to you by colby rasmus, but mitch boggs, JAIME GARCIA, and lance lynn should get a nod, too.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
I think Penny is a bit better than a "reclamation project"
he was a solid #2 starter for several years in LA, got injured for one season (2008) then came back in 2009 and was slightly above-average. I think he’s a “fairly solid free agent mid-rotation guy”.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 6:05 AM EST up reply actions
Garcia?
Remember there was a time we were worried about the #1 & #2 pitcher…… #5 seems much ado about nothing…… but it does have to be asked I guess.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jan 5, 2010 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
we're safe with 1 & 2
Most likely 3 & 4 w/ Penny and Lohse. 5 isn’t a big deal now that we got Lego back.
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
We are not safe.
Carp, Lohse, and Penny are all injury risks.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jan 5, 2010 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
lohse is?
he had never been on the DL ever prior to last year
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I said most likely
but who knows.
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
Personally I love the deal.
We now have 2 pitchers who were voted two and three in the Cy Young. We have the best two hitters batting 2-3. We have a young Center fielder who could be never good for very long. We have a gold glove SS and catcher. Our 1-4 pitchers is likely the best in Baseball next year.
The next 3 years look likely to be very very good years for the Cardinals.
Now then, 5 years from now I may be cursing the contract. But hopefully it’s after a few years of playoffs and some world series victories.
yeah, what?
never good for very long?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
The amateur draft just got a whole lot less interesting....
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jan 5, 2010 7:03 PM EST reply actions
they always say
that pick salaries are separate from the major league payroll
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
i think you have to take that with a sizeable pinch of salt
still, I’d rather go wayyy over slot with all our picks and not sign another FA this winter, than get Calero/Smoltz/Lopez/whoever and go cheap on the draft. We REALLY need some talent in the minors now we’re handcuffed to one (and potentially two) long-term blockbuster contracts.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 6:06 AM EST up reply actions
Matty Ho speaks.
this time on 101
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
hey, he mentioned the Man Stew, obliquely. twice!
his wife’s excited. the wives took them in.
free agency wuz so hrd, apparently.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Dear Dee Dee,
I know you were behind this.
THANK YOU.
hearts, but in a platonic way,
VEB
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
and probably Ludwick
who, as Goold points out, lives in Austin.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
What do the Cards have for backup OFs?
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
jon jay, stav infection, craig
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
me, you, that guy over there...
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
will they try to go after anyone else?
My dad is suggesting Ankiel… but I don’t like it.
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
no on ankiel
i’m willing to bet craig + jay is 2-3 wins better than ankiel in 2010.
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by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 7:12 PM EST up reply actions
i would be willing to take that bet.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 6:07 AM EST up reply actions
101 espn
keeps talking like the cards are definitely in on tejada
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Stav's still on the 40-man?
why? I don’t see how he has any value at all.
I have a love/hate relationship with the Cardinals' middle relief corps. | Cards on Cards
in what role?
- or bullpen?
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by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 7:11 PM EST up reply actions
SBN'd
number five pitcher or bullpen is what that should read.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 7:11 PM EST up reply actions
I've never seen a case of tourettes like it, doc.
He just keeps shouting the names of aging pitchers.
by peach concrete on Jan 5, 2010 7:13 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
will he pitch for free?
I feel like after today the only $$ we’re handing out are for like Joe Thurston style deals
I have a love/hate relationship with the Cardinals' middle relief corps. | Cards on Cards
as long as he coaches for free
second pitch, Mottie. second effing pitch.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
slider, changeup...
anything SLOW, Sauce.
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
1. sign smoltz
2. smoltz teaches motte to throw an 88mph splitter to go with his 99mph 4-seamer
3. ???
4. win world series.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 6:08 AM EST up reply actions
So who is going over to the P-D
to see how long it takes until someone says the money would have been better spent on DeRosa?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Now I don't have to change my sig...
Not that anyone reads those.
Holliday.
Uh huh, oh yeah.
Holliday.
He will be so nice.
A fair deal
History shows that just because a player has no other suitors does not mean he can be signed on the cheap. The Cardinals need Holliday as much as Holliday needs the Cardinals. By signing Holliday the Cardinals become a HUGE favorite to win the NL Central. I will update my NL Central WAR Worksheet later tonight to show this.
As far as the contract goes, I think it is pretty fair but very dependent on how well Matt Holliday ages. One would expect a rather large discount in terms of money for the security of 7 years for a 30 year old player. Here is how I have the contract broken down. Sorry for the format.
Year, Age, WAR, $M/Win, Value
2010, 30, 5.8, 4.0, 23.20
2011, 31, 5.8, 4.2, 24.36
2012, 32, 5.5, 4.5, 24.75
2013, 33, 5.0, 4.8, 24.00
2014, 34, 4.5, 5.1, 22.95
2015, 35, 4.0, 5.4, 21.60
2016, 36, 3.0, 5.7, 17.10
Total WAR: 33.6
Total Value: $157.96M
20% Discount for contract Length: $126.368M
So, I think the contract may be reasonable. Thoughts?
vr, Xei
i am intuitively pessimistic on sustained defensive value from holliday.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
Regression, son
Most players aren’t as good as they play – even guys who’ve put up consistently great performances. Even Pujols should only be projected to be worth about 7 WAR.
Holliday is about 4.5 WAR next year, maybe 5.
I understand the concept of regression, son
But would you seriously take bets setting 4.5 WAR for Matt Holliday in 2010 as an Over/Under?? 4.5 would be a rather large outlier compared to what BJ, FG, Chone etc… all project and they supposedly use regression.
vr, Xei
CHONE projects exactly 5 WAR per 150 games (+29 runs offense, +1 run defense).
Holliday shouldn’t be expected to play 150 games do to injury risk, so his actual projected WAR should be lower.
5 even sounds right to me.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
yep
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Holliday shouldn’t be expected to play 150 games do to injury risk
i don’t buy this. and i understand how it came about. but you have the ben sheets, rich hardens, etc of the world bringing that average down. holliday doesn’t have a history of injury, so i don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect 150 games out him. rather, i don’t think it’s reasonable to expect him to be on the DL
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Every player has an injury risk
You honestly can say, that with 10,000 repititions of the season, you would expect him to not be to injured for a not insignificant portion of those trials?
ha
well, sure over 10,000 repetitions. we’re only playing it once. and i wouldn’t expect him to be injured for a non significant amount of time in more than say 15-20% of those repetitions
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
that's not a fair analogy
i’m calling a non-significant amount of time one 15 day DL stint. 20% of 10,000 indicates that i would expect him to have a 15 day disabling once every 5 repetitions. that makes it statistically improbably based on my arbitrary (and baseless) guess
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
statistically improbably
statistically improbably
can we get an edit function. the lack of one does not endear my intelligence
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
he is much more likely to be healthy
than believing all three of Smoltz, Sheets, and Lopez will be, no?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
If those guys were all healthy, they would add 9 WAR next year
(and I would move Lohse to the pen). The only reason Sheets and Smoltz aren’t being offered huge contracts is because they aren’t expected to be healthy – and that’s fine by me.
Prince Fielder is probably the unhealthiest and most unathleticguy in MLB
and did not miss a game last year (Literally played every single damn game), I don’t buy the injury risk
In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his recievers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
Doesn't that sorta validate it
You can’t look at this guy and say “He looks healthy” or “He looks unhealthy” and predict missed time case by case.
by Merry CRasmus on Jan 5, 2010 11:48 PM EST up reply actions
of course, he was 25
his rib cage hasn’t even fully fused yet…
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
What?
So one guy didn’t get injured one year and that means that all players have no risk for injury?
My point is it is a crapshoot
When the guy has no major injury record, he shouldn’t be expected to miss that many games a year. Just have to hope and pray he has good karma.
In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his recievers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
He shouldn't be expected to miss many games
But you have to factor in that chance when evaluating a contract.
Dude was worth 2.7 WAR in 63 games with the Cardinals last year with below average defense
Yes, he’ll regress, but he’s still in his prime, so my guess would be he’ll be at least a 5.5 WAR player next year, if not 6 WAR, and that his defense with rebound to around 5 runs per 150 games, which is about his career average.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
by fourstick on Jan 5, 2010 7:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I know
You don’t have to keep telling me. I’m putting this up for other people to read so that this thread doesn’t seem so pessimistic.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Then why do you say things like "He was worth 2.7 WAR with the Cardinals"
That’s not predictive. 63 games is nothing to evaluate players.
over the last three years
he averaged 6.7 WAR
is that better in the predictiveness category?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
We aren't going to win this argument
and it’s about to devolve into a level of arcane statistical science that neither you or I want any part of, trust me.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
That's a start, but let me run you through the whole thing.
First you have to adjust for the quality of his team’s offense impacting his plate appearances. Part of why Holliday had such a great WAR with the Rockies was that the offense was stacked and he got to come to the plate more than most players in baseball. Generally, a starter will get about 4 plate appearances per game, so if you use adjusted PA and prorate the WAR, you get these figures over the past 3 years:
7.1
5.6
5.3
If you weight those 5-4-3, you get 5.9 WAR. Add regression to the mean, aging, and injury risk, and that’s about 5 WAR, a little less (and that assumes you trust UZR’s valuation of Holliday, which is higher than his Total Zone scores).
why wouldn't i trust his UZR?
you would tell that there is enough data that applying any kind of error margin would be pointless
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Because both total zone and the fans scoutin report
as well as most VEB’ers, don’t see his as a +10 defender like UZR does.
i don't buy into the eye test
i think he looks awkward out there, but i also know that he’s hell of fast. i also know that average LFers are not very good fielders. what good reason do i have to consider TZR anyway?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
UZR is better than TZR, however, it still has some biases and misclassfications from the batted ball source
TZR uses a different source of batted balls, and while the data isn’t as granular, the fact that it uses a different source can help reveal mistakes in UZR and vice versa.
I put this one under "The Tallest Midget Catagory"
There are some stupidly bad LFs out there
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~
What mean
are you regressing to? Correct me if I am wrong, but you are suppose to regress to the players “true” talent level, not some imaginary mean. But the players “true” talent level is what we are trying to predict in the first place, so how can you correctly regress to it. You can’t. Regression techniques are an area of sabermetrics that haven’t quite been figured out yet. And regressing Matt Holliday or Albert Pujols to the same mean that you are regressing a Juan Pierre or James Loney to is wrong.
vr, Xei
Well it's more likely that a player with Holliday is a 2-3 true talent WAR player than he is a 6-7 WAR true talent player
Holliday has put up the stats of a 6-7 WAR player, but it’s more likely than not that he’s worse than that.
Who knows
… but I am more curious what his “mean” is. Do you know? I don’t. And I doubt CHONE does.
vr, Xei
So what makes you think your projection is better than CHONEs?
by vivaelpujols on Jan 8, 2010 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
Point to where I said it was
I’m just saying that your statement about regressing to the mean is not correct as stated. You must regress to the players “true talent” level.
vr, Xei
Oh right, i was thinking about the other converstation
CHONE I know uses body type and possibly comparable players to regress to.
4.5 starting WAR
would put fair market value on a 7 year deal for Holliday @ right around $100M.
vr, Xei
vr, Xei
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
So you're cussing and swearing about $1.25M per year over 7 years?
WTF? Seriously. You should be glad they’re that close to your valuation point, which most of us would agree might be a bit pessimistic.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I said, I didn't think the contract was unfair
I’m cussing because I think we overpaid given the situation.
but let's be honest
we weren’t going to get him for that much cheaper, right?
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
Other teams...
likely would’ve been more aggressive if Holliday could’ve been had for less years (let’s say 5). I don’t think the “situation” warranted Holliday signing for less than what he thought was fair or very close to fair market value. Holliday could’ve just played the waiting game. The Cardinals couldn’t afford to wait otherwise who would they play in LF? Sure, the Cardinals could’ve been hard asses about this and said 5 years at $XXM take it or leave it, but obviously they have more class than that. I’m sure Pujols was watching closely too.
vr, Xei
Craig, Jay looked great in ST last year
I dunno, LF just doesn’t seem like a super important position to me… but I’m very glad that we have a hitter that is nearly as good as Pujols now. I just wish they would bat Pujols 4th and Holliday 2nd, but that’s not gonna happen.
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 9:26 PM EST up reply actions
evidently, some people think that 4.5 WAR is about right.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
It probably is pretty close to the best projection you can get out of a projection system
if you’re doing it properly with statistics. I would guess that he’s a much better bet to outperform 4.5 WAR in each of the next 3-4 seasons than he is to underperform 4.5 WAR in the same period.
Even at 4.5 WAR, $120M is EXACTLY his market value, so if he outperforms at all over the course of the contract then he’ll be worth more than the deal. Again, I don’t understand what all the bitching is about.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Tango
has him at 5.0 WAR and that is only at 85% playing time. In recent years he has played at around 95% of the time. He’s easily a 5.5 WAR player for 2010, but it appears the safer projection seems to be around 5.0 WAR.
vr, Xei
Saw that...
But Chone would have 5.2 if they used UZR, and Bill James and Fans have him at 5.8. So 4.8 looks like the outlier here.
vr, Xei
Bill James is notoriously optomistic
He has a higher baseline for players, so average is something like 2.5 WAR. The fans are always going to be too optimistic. They have Utley at like 8.5 WAR.
CHONE is by FAR the best projection out of Bill James and the Fans.
I agree
that Bill James and Fans have some problems, but I also believe that CHONE is too pessimistic. Of course I am just guessing. I would think a middle ground would be the most accurate. I think what kills CHONE is the across the board “one size fits all” playing time penalties/adjustments.
vr, Xei
A million internet dollars
or 1/120th of Matt Holliday’s contract says that he will be worth more than 5 WAR next season barring injury. You are seriously overestimating the regression here VEP, because most of the projection systems will have him higher than that, I’m sure of it.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
by fourstick on Jan 5, 2010 7:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
CHONE has him at 5 WAR per 150, and you have to account for some injury risk
Devil Fingers had him at like 4.2 WAR. I’m not sure if ZIPS has been released yet, and we’ll wait for PECOTA.
I’ll take the over under on 5 WAR with you any day.
Done
Barring him missing more than 25 games (which would be two stints on the DL), he’ll be worth > 5 WAR next year. Count on it.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I know
he trusts his projection systems a lot more than his eyes, and that’s fine.
Prediction systems are within their standard error on players probably less than 40% of the time, so I have not problem taking this bet at over 5 WAR.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
calling people "son" is about as patronising as anything can possibly get.
not cool.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 6:09 AM EST up reply actions
Eh
I say that to my friends in a non-patronizing way. Have you ever heard the phrase “Do work, son!”? Maybe it’s an American thing (and I see that Xeifrank +1’d your statement, and I don’t know whether he’s American or not) that hasn’t made its way across the pond yet.
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Jan 6, 2010 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
well now that he's Cardinal
I guess I should repeat the report that he’s taking up yoga this off-season.
also, “Hollirosa” is only half screwed!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
is that really it for the interview?
like 5 minutes?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
don't be fooled by his lego head
you need room for the bottom connectors. it’s not actually solid lego.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
but he's so dreamy!
i just wanted to hear him talk!
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I'd be more impressed with him if he really were
so over the whole Matt Holliday thing.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
To step away from the money for a moment:
Albert Pujols career OPS+: 172.
Matt Holliday career OPS+: 133.
Who knows what the future holds, but darned if that right there don’t make me at least a wee bit giddy.
"But I’m still hungry. I’ve got 10 fingers. There’s one that’s busy and I need nine more."
- Albert Pujols
No, no, not comparing...
…saying that having the two of them back to back in a lineup for what one hopes to be years is…well, not unhappy in the slightest.
"But I’m still hungry. I’ve got 10 fingers. There’s one that’s busy and I need nine more."
- Albert Pujols
in your pants?
is that what you’re saying?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Well, yeah.
Especially when I take a look at active players of Holliday’s age or younger with higher career OPS+: David Wright, Mark Teixeira, Miguel Cabrera, Ryan Howard, Pujols. That’s the list.
"But I’m still hungry. I’ve got 10 fingers. There’s one that’s busy and I need nine more."
- Albert Pujols
just checkin'
sometimes one has to translate to the vernacular. hehe.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
You people are commenting faster than I can read and Z through the thread.
This is kinda frustrating, in an awesome way.
We're going through a new avatar test phase here at mojowo11. Please be patient as we may try a variety of new ideas over the coming days and weeks.
it's the biggest news
in a long time… how can VEB not be going crazy?
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
VESTING OPTION? SEVEN YEARS WARN'T ENUF?
The Cardinals had offered $112 million for seven years sometimes in the past couple weeks, according to sources, and the sides negotiated from there. That proposed deal was worth roughly $16 million per, but Holliday was seeking more annual money than Jason Bay recently received from the Mets in his four-year, $66 million contract. Besides topping Bay’s total value by some $54 million, Holliday’s contract, which includes an eighth-year vesting option, will pay him more than $17 million on average for each of the seven seasons
The Cardinals are hoping to use this deal to show Albert Pujols how committed they are to winning. Pujols’ contract expires after the 2011 season.
Scott Boras, Holliday’s agent, originally suggested his client should be paid on par with Mark Teixeira, another Boras client who signed an eight-year, $180 million deal with the Yankees last offseason. But many baseball executives predicted that in this economic environment that Holliday, despite being a terrific hitter in his own right, wouldn’t crack even $100 million, because he can’t quite match Teixeira’s power or defense.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
not that bad
6:23pm: Jon Heyman of Sports Illustrated reports (via Twitter) that if Holliday finishes in the top-10 in MVP voting in 2016, his vesting option would be worth $17MM for 2017.
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
That's not a horrible vesting option if you think about it
If he’s productive enough to finish in the top 10 of the MVP voting in 2016, then he’ll probably be worth $17M of 2017 dollars the next season.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
yeah
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I love this option
1. Great incentive for an aging player w/ tons of money to keep playing and competing for the length of his contract (or at least at the end of his contract)
2. Puts a subtle psychological hint in the minds of fans that this man might actually be able to be a top-10 player for the next 7 days. Makes the long-term deal easier to swallow
3. Shows that the Cardinals are willing to commit to performance as long as the player is
I’m almost always a fan of incentive-based details. Even if this never happens, it’s a nice touch in my mind.
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
Over the next seven days
I predict he will finish tied for first.
yeah
what are the odds he finishes top 10 in 2016?
and if he does, he’s fucking worth it
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
we can always bribe the voters not to vote for him
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 6:16 AM EST up reply actions
no wonder. he's a La Russa man. Leach's twitter:
Hopefully in time we’ll get to know that side of him in StL. Not that he was BAD to deal with — far from it. Just never seemed relaxed. 19 minutes ago from web
To make sure I’m being clear here — Holliday was actually very accommodating to us media types. He just didn’t seem at ease. 17 minutes ago from web
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Was NY or Boston ever a possibility
from Holliday’s standpoint? If the STL media causes him to feel uncomfortable how would he feel with the Daily News?
apparently yes.
he said himself he was comfortable with bigger cities.
I think Leach is just saying he’s not smooth. he doesn’t sell it. it’s hard to word to the press people-guys.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I feel a sense of relief
You know DeWitt and Mo didn’t pay a penny more than they felt they had to. It took long enough. I hope it wasn’t just that Boras wore them down. Heck, they did better with the negotiations than I would have.
Matt didn’t have any other suitors but we had to have him and they knew it. Ok, I’m going to hibernate until pitchers and catchers report.
You VEB'ers disgust me
Go away for 1 hour, Holliday announces this and 500 comments are already up. It is impossible to beat you guys to the punch, huh?
Anyways, great news, I guess!! Let the ‘10 season begin! Ha! I don’t know about you but I am guessing this season will be pretty much cleaned up…
I want the Walrus back...
ouch, Goold.
So, the next seven years … Who has a higher batting average: Brett Wallace in Toronto or Matt Holliday with the #Cardinals? #stlcards
ow
tough but fair.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Since we didn't have a position for Brett Wallace to play
it doesn’t really matter does it?
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jan 5, 2010 7:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
not very fair
but yes, tough. and Goold, it will be Holliday.
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
I fail to see
How signing him is closely correlated to trading for him, other than both events shows that we clearly really, really think he is a good player.
by Merry CRasmus on Jan 5, 2010 7:31 PM EST up reply actions
Irking, but who cares?
Doesn’t mean anything.
We're going through a new avatar test phase here at mojowo11. Please be patient as we may try a variety of new ideas over the coming days and weeks.
heh
Everyone is taking the Wallace/Holliday question too seriously. Yes, it’s unfair (dollar-wise) and yes, I know avg is outdated. Viva OPS+!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
it's a good thing we got Holliday when we did
b/c, according to TLR, it would’ve been this week or moving on.
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
That's probably why
it happened this week. They’d have waiting for a stronger market to develop as long as we were willing to let them.
by Merry CRasmus on Jan 5, 2010 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
not really that much suspense
we’ve known that since the weekend.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
more work to be done
now the boras fiasco is over, what are the Cards gonna do with the pitching staff? we need to sign Smoltz and the stopper is a ?
Pitcher (SMOLTZ?) and a 3B
would be good.
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
the cardinals have a third basemen
we just prefer not to use him…
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
I know
but I just can’t imagine Freese being our Opening Day starter at 3rd
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
craig...
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
(has a Homer Simpson d'oh moment)
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
LOL AWESOME TYPO
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 8:05 PM EST up reply actions
to treat tony's dogs when they get sick?
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
His cats get tired staying on his shoulders all the time.
In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his recievers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
NEED MORE OLD GUYS
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
BRING BIG UNIT OUT OF RETIREMENT
"But I’m still hungry. I’ve got 10 fingers. There’s one that’s busy and I need nine more."
- Albert Pujols
Okay
I’m not thrilled about this contract, but this comment an Astros fan friend of mine posted on my Matt Holliday status was priceless:
I’ll take hunter pence over holiday anyday.
Oh, Astros. You suck so hard.
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Jan 5, 2010 7:33 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
hahaha
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
hahahahahahahaha
glad he’s happy in fourth place then.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
Indeed, the Astros suck.
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
by zoomzoomj88 on Jan 5, 2010 7:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
that is last decade, though...
who’s got the carnival park picture?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
who cares?
it’s still a great moment and a hell of a pic.
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
that would be me
thank you f
® ©™
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Nice touch with the registered trademark, copyright, and trademark.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
f get's pissy if you forget to give him props
gotta keep the f happy. a happy f means a happy VEB
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
by gdm426 on Jan 6, 2010 1:26 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Hunter Pence is actually Matt Hollidays top comp
By baseball reference by age
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 5, 2010 7:47 PM EST up reply actions
where's my free shirt?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 7:49 PM EST up reply actions
what?
come on now?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 7:58 PM EST up reply actions
no no no
i missed by about three hours, but i bet no one else got closer.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 8:04 PM EST up reply actions
What happens to Daryl Jones as a result of this?
From all reports, he doesn’t have the arm to play right. Now that LF is locked up for the foreseeable future, does DJ become trade bait? Granted, he could be stashed in the minors for a while, at least until he recovers some lost value. Glad to have Holliday back, NLDS notwithstanding.
Until he starts raking in the minors
uhhhh, nothing. He’s still young — I think he could develop into a decent trade option after next season if he can show some power and on base ability at Memphis this season. Allen Craig is seriously fucked though, poor guy. No real trade value and no position to play.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
at least the club did an excellent job of puffing up his value as opposed to hiding him in the minors and treating
him like he was too incompetent to fill his designated role.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
He is still the best bat we have off the bench
He will still make this team
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 5, 2010 8:02 PM EST up reply actions
yeah
plus who’s to say he won’t ever get a chance to play 3B? especially with TLR playing people wherever
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 8:35 PM EST up reply actions
I saw him
in the AZ fall league and wasn’t so impressed. He is isn’t a power hitter anyhow, and we have Ludwick in RF, so I really don’t see where he fits in with us.
by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Jan 5, 2010 9:15 PM EST up reply actions
wait,Craig isn't a power hitter?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I think he's talking about Jones,
who played in the AFL. I don’t believe Craig played this fall.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 5, 2010 10:13 PM EST up reply actions
The guys nick is DJ Tools and he doesn't have an arm?
I feel I’ve been lied to all this time
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~
i feel people seriously over-rate how important arm strength in outfielding
Darryl Jones could likely come up to the majors now and be a CONSIDERABLY above-average defensive right fielder.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 6:20 AM EST up reply actions
Not for RF I don't
being able to make throws to third base is very important for a RF, probably not as important as range, but still important nonetheless. For LF I would agree for you.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
it is nowhere near as important as range
like 10x less important. Even for a RF.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
As long as this makes Albert happy
then I’m happy. Albert is our franchise player and he said he will sign if the team proves they are trying to compete…..I think this proves that. Now it’s your turn Albert to do what you say and sign a contract to become a lifetime Cardinal.
Boy a frosty cold Budweiser would be great about now"…long pause…then an "aahhh". --Mike Shannon
Anybody gonna watch the Orange Bowl tonight?
Georgia Tech vs. Iowa
Math vs. Meth
(ties the thread(s) up together nicely!)
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
i'm rooting for a low scoring game in which iowa covers the spread.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 8:12 PM EST up reply actions
It's gonna be an incredibly boring game.
Iowa’s D is tough, but I don’t think they’re disciplined enough to follow option assignments.
G-Tech’s offense has retard-strength.
Iowa’s offense is inept
G-Tech’s D is strong enough to stop Iowa. (Read: 11 people will be on the field)
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
Iowa's offense will be better
with Stanzi back. Georgia Tech couldn’t stop a one dimensional Clemson team in the ACC title game — as good as Spiller is their defense isn’t all that great.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
How do you explain Stanzi when he couldn't score against MSU earlier this year?
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
Couldn't score?
Seems to me they drove it right down the field to win the game right? Ferentz plays things close the vest a lot of the time. They want to win low-scoring games and limit possessions, which is exactly what they did against the Spartans. BTW, East Lansing is historically a very tough place for Iowa to win football games. Ferentz is under .500 there in his 10+ years at Iowa.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Either way, I've never been a fan of Big Ten sports.
…gimme ACC or nothin’ at all.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
How you like the Iowa offense now?
14-0!
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I will be
If Iowa wins I win my Bowl Confidence Pool. $538 here I come!!!
If the Ramblin’ Wreck wins I need Alabama to win on Thursday.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I'm currently 0-for-the-BCS
If Iowa wins tonight, you can take an Alabama NC to the bank
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
LAMEST coin flip ever.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
me no likey college handegg
happy that Ron Turner and most of the Bears coaching staff were fired though, I just don’t get why they didn’t get rid of Lovie too
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 8:37 PM EST up reply actions
you a hawkeyes fan?
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
I hate GT.
And Adrian Clayborne went to Webster.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
come on, melissa
at least spell his name right.
adrian clayborn
/dick
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
whoa first names
too real
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
Resident malcontented betamale
by slu on Jan 5, 2010 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
sorry about that.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 10:02 PM EST up reply actions
best info: $17M each year x 7 y; 8th yr vesting option on finishing in the top 10 for mvp.
no trade clause.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
Quibble
8th year vesting option on finishing in the top 10 for MVP in 2016, the last year of the guaranteed contract.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
yes, sorry.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
why the hell did you trust me in the first place?
i am after all not a person and just a spambot without capslock enabled.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
is that better or worse than a figment of everyone's twisted imagination?
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
4pieceofwood
it might be time to change your sig.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 5, 2010 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
it would be funny to go a little longer on the assumption, though.
since we’re all from the future…..
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
no discussion anywhere of front or back loading?
I’m interested to see if its a straight average per year.
Just win
it seems to be $17m each year.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
from bernie
RT @MatthewHLeach: Scott Boras confirms full no-trade. Deal is not backloaded; an even $17MM each year.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
wow
so basically the BBWAA decides whether we pick up lego’s option? imagine if holliday were still really good at the end of the contract (work with me here) – and it came down to throwaway votes like the ones Jeremy Affeldt got. HFS®
R.P.O.F.Y.M.
if he's still good enough
to get mvp votes, i’ll want him back
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
true but still
the idea that basing baseball contracts on things that aren’t 100% controlled within baseball (i.e. writers that follow conventional wisdom and nothing more when evaluating players) is a bit undesirable in my book
R.P.O.F.Y.M.
yeah but
this is the future ! we’re talking about. conventional wisdom then will be to evaluate players based on wSKORPS which is okay, but not park adjusted like wSKORPS+
fucking old timers
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Affeldt didn't finish top 10 though
You have to put up pretty good numbers to finish in the top 10 of the MVP race. He won’t do that with a 3 WAR season.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
BREAKING NEWS!
Matt Holliday is a Cardinal!
…i think
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
I'll be interested
to see what kind of rapport he and Kurt Warner can develop.
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
I heard he's going to take over for Rogers-Cromartie in the Wild Card game.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
playoffs ads
not on Caliendo levels, but it annoyed people.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Hass Avocados caused us to lose.
And you know what…. That’s bush-league, bro.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
Oh god damn you....
In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his recievers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)
I admire your self control. I would have gone on a rampage.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
Respectable, really.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
I've never trolled.
But I gotta believe that guy is a parody. An incredible committed parody with no life whatsoever.
and persistent
the ‘best’ part is… not yet banned.
for, what, years?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
That amazes me.
It makes me think they like getting riled up all the time.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
it's the internets, too
whatever tendencies they have.. feed into self-perpetuating behavior… rinse, repeat.
it’s like… why the L flag? I’ll never understand that. but now it’s big business.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
that says everything i'm thinking.
there’s very little margin for error, to my eye. seven years is a long time for a hiccup.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
I just had quite possibly one of the worst nights of my life.
This made it all better. For once, thank you Scott Boras. I don’t love the contract but I love that it’s done and he’s with us.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
I am sorry to hear you just found out
That Santa Claus is actually your parents.
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 5, 2010 8:35 PM EST up reply actions
WHAT?!
Next you’re gonna tell me the tooth fairy and the easter bunny are my parents, too.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
Don't worry
gdm will be along in a little while to console you in a borderline creepy fashion
/just kidding gdm!!
//kinda
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
i freaked her out when i said aunt becky in reference to full house a while ago
she has one & thought i was 6ly stalking her. that freaked me out because the last thing i want a rep of is stalking or creeping out women, even if it is joking i want no part of that.
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
I know you're not a stalker or a creep; I've got your back
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
So...
with regard to the contest, Stlfan said 7/115.5; chuckb said 6/102 with a year seven option for $18 million that vests with 500 PAs bringing it to 7/120.
If the report of 7/119 stands, who wins?
4-6 more WAR in 2010!
Scott Boras
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
by effin fisk on Jan 5, 2010 8:42 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
well
with the $1MM option buyout, it is definitely 7/120
that’s why holliday was saying 7/119 with 120 guaranteed
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I'd pick the one with the 7 guaranteed years
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
i agree. esp. since he did have an option for an 8th year.
sorry, chuck.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
Ok...
stlfan it is…
Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word
farewell, anonymous minor-leaguers whose value i have trouble estimating!
come spring we won’t have to jump though hoops to get holliday into our show ’10 lineups.
by Corey! on Jan 5, 2010 8:51 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Why didn't I think to put an exclamation point at the end of my username?!
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
heh
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
My take
- Fangraphs article is spot on about risks/rewards.. Very even analysis Cards have two thumpers in the middle for several years and if they can find the third piece of the troika, watch out MV3
-
- Has to be disheartening to NL central contenders. I think it will accelerate a Cubs rebuilding and prevent Cincy and Milwaukee from going large anytime soon. With Carp and Waino, we have legitimate shot at the World Series over the next few years
-
- Albert gets at least 2-4 more years of 90 win baseball and can’t logically sign elsewhere now This was a Dewitt deal, not a Mo deal
-
- burden on Luhnow to find the cheap pieces to make this work because no more room for error lots of good baseball for the next 4-5 years
-
— TLR is going to be hanging around a few more years
Just win
win?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
SBN'd
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 8:56 PM EST up reply actions
I was just thinking...
In 7 years I will have not only graduated college, my master’s program and hopefully I will be finishing my second Master’s and I hope to be married with a dog and at least one kid. That’s forever from now.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
+1
that’s fucking scary.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 8:56 PM EST up reply actions
i hope that's gold-leaf
or fake gold
‘cause wouldn’t that sink?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Very OT and I apologize but I just need a quick answer and my parents don't know.
Can you buy cooking wine if you are under 21?
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Well I did, but I didn't know if the incompetent cashier just didn't ask for my ID.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
apparently you can buy cooking wine
but real wine tastes MUCH better, even in recipes.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 9:02 PM EST up reply actions
really?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 9:05 PM EST up reply actions
I think I'm older than you.
Can you legally buy wine?
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
'twas sarcasm.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 9:06 PM EST up reply actions
i'm fucking amazing at it
so good, you guys can’t pick up on it.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 9:25 PM EST up reply actions
there was once this guy who claimed he had an invisible dick
because no one could see it.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jan 5, 2010 9:27 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
you guys suck
i hate this place.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 9:29 PM EST up reply actions
Yes
We tried doing it one time for drinking and according to my friend it tasted like shit. I didn’t partake.
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
Wrong
Wine you cook with should be good tasting.
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 5, 2010 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
for future reference
buy real wine. especially for cooking.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I would love to.
I really would. I f I could convince the cashier that I would not be drinking any and just using it to cook I would. As it is, I have to wait for about 7 months.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
16 :(
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 9:05 PM EST up reply actions
no--16 months until i'm 21
and where’s my shirt?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 9:09 PM EST up reply actions
Yeahhhhh
I never really laid down the ground rules. I still want to give away merchandise but would like to actually establish the rules first before I do so.
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 5, 2010 9:11 PM EST up reply actions
bull
i’m suing.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 9:14 PM EST up reply actions
some groceries also sell the dinky six-packs of wine
I find they’re the right serving size for a meal or two.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Good for them.
But that has no bearing on how old you must be to purchase these.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
don't be hatin'
it’ll save you money later. it’s like a backloaded contract.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Well thank you for the future reference.
I have decided that next year I will have to set up some rules for the roommates to be sure they don’t drink all of my wine before I get to cook with it.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
You should put Ruphies in it
That will teach them a lesson.
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 5, 2010 9:16 PM EST up reply actions
5 months here!
with all my friends turning 21 its finally starting to get real…staying home while your friends are at the bar/casino sucks
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
Resident malcontented betamale
by slu on Jan 5, 2010 9:59 PM EST up reply actions
You young uns all need to get the fuck off my lawn.
by peach concrete on Jan 5, 2010 10:02 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
whoa teacher
easy with the language.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 10:02 PM EST up reply actions
never apologize for putting those damn kids in their place
they must respect your authority!
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
my whole fucking junior year is going to be like that
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 10:03 PM EST up reply actions
what month?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 10:08 PM EST up reply actions
may 23 1989
this is my fourth decade on this earth….that’s disgusting
and i’ll just say it “blahblahblahyoudontstartcountingatzerothedecadeisntoverblahblahblah”
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
Resident malcontented betamale
may 20 1990
we’re in the same boat…
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 10:13 PM EST up reply actions
the only good thing will be that once the bday hits all your friends will be able to go out with you
and they’re all going to the friggin karaoke bar whether they like it or not, those bastards.
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
Resident malcontented betamale
I have the best of worlds.
I have some friends who will not be 21 and some who will so I’m good.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
yeah listen to this
may 15: friend turns 21
may 17: another friend turns 21
may 20: i turn 21
may 30: another friend turns 21
june 5: another friend turns 21
fuck and yes.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
nobody has that many friends
stop lying
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Yeah.
Maybe you should just all have one big party where you all pay for everything on June 5.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
You don't know what you're saying
May 15: Expensive
May 17: Expensive
May 20: You don’t want to be how drunk you’re required to get
May 30: Expensive
June 5: Expensive
Not afraid to nitpick
...
may 15: semi-fun
may 17: semi-fun
may 20: FUN
may 30: fun
june 5: fun
did i mention mine was a friday?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 10:26 PM EST up reply actions
do i beat you consistently?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 10:20 PM EST up reply actions
I always go to school before you.
But on May 4 I can gloat as well.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
may 4th?
i thought you were done the 30th?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly.
So on May 4th when you have school, I will be home.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
or you could have said may 3rd?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
Better choice.
I got confused. I can also gloat on May 4th though, so I’m not wrong.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
fair enough
but i’ll be home may 7th. no biggie.
when do you go back to class?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
Tomorrow.
Please don’t make fun of me. I’m going to die.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
i apologize
but why is clemson starting their semester on an effing wednesday? and why are you going to die on syllabus day?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
We always start on a Wednesday.
Even in the summer. It’s how we even out what classes we miss over breaks.
I have never had a teacher actually only do the syllabus on “syllabus” day.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
even so
it’s got to be better than a regular day of classes in the middle of the semester…
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
yeah
still, i wouldn’t worry about it.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 11:07 PM EST up reply actions
I'm going to die.
I have the worst cold ever and I just want to sleep. At least I don’t already have homework like my one friend.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
i've got a terrible cold as well
we should start a club!
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
ha
the 19th here
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
that seems to be the popular date...
i’m next monday.
nothing like starting off the semester with a three day weekend…
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 11:06 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, but when you
aren’t a wine drinker, and you’re making a quick sauce for yourself, and cooking wine doesn’t really go bad……it ain’t the worst thing to have in the kitchen.
* is an Asshat
I would say no.
I just went and looked at the bottle that I have and it says Alcohol by Volume 10%. And it says wine.
* is an Asshat
I'm not sure I have any.
The one I bought fell out and spilled everywhere.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
what in the blue blazes is "cooking wine"?
this some sort of crazy american invention? Don’t you just cook with, erm, wine?
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 6:30 AM EST up reply actions
If I lived in England I would be cooking with wine.
Stupid American drinking age.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
quick
someone update the roster matrix!
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 9:03 PM EST reply actions
that would be awesome
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
Hey
I just got back from dinner – did I miss anything?
Randy Johnson's retiring.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
gutierrez signed
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
Seattle!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
mariners in on kotchman
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
We finally coined a good nickname for Thurston
can we take him back now?
OT: My 9 year old cousin and I are playing a game of UNO over the holidays...
… along with another one of my cousins, Mark. We are both in our late twenties. Billy is the 9 year old. My Uncle told me that Billy has been on this UNO kick lately. He LOVES this game something fierce and he has been bugging the shit out of his older sisters and parents to play constantly. Naturally, he brings his UNO deck to the family get-togethers and starts asking around for a game. The three of us sit down at a table to play.
Billy knows and understands the rules of the game and therefore, by default, is decent. We play a couple games – let him win most – then take a break. You have to understand, the kid is in love with UNO. He’s happy as hell that he won and is parading around the house about how he beat his two older cousins. I get an idea. I tell Mark about it. He smiles and agrees. We call Billy over and ask for a rematch. He says yes. We sit down and play another game.
Before we asked Billy for a rematch, I stacked the deck with all the Wild cards on the bottom and started dealing, slowly…:
1st Card: I deal Billy the first Wild from the bottom of the deck. He’s leaning forward from the excitement of another game. He picks up his wild card and makes a sort of “…whoo..” under his breath.
2nd Card: Billy gets another Wild card. The “…whoo..” under his breath was now an audible “Whoo!” He’s getting excited…
3rd Card: Billy picks up his 3rd card. A Wild Draw 4. He knows these are the better of the two wilds and starts to move around. He can’t sit still. He starts to laugh. He can’t believe it. He has just been dealt three wilds and nothing else. We ask him why he’s so excited, and he says he doesn’t want to tell us. Alright, fine. I deal the 4th round of cards…
4th Card: He picks up another Wild Draw 4. He’s screaming a closed mouth scream and the excited movement is picking up.
5th Card: He can’t wait until he gets his next card. He rips it from the table to see. He looks at it. It’s another Wild. He can’t hold it in anymore. He’s practically shaking. He’s screaming for his dad to come check this out. My Uncle takes one look at his hand and knew what me and Mark were up to. So, my Uncle hypes it up. “Billy!!! What!!! This is the best hand ever! Wow! I knew you were good at this game… but not that good!”
6th Card: Another Wild. He almost can’t hold on to his hand let alone sit in his chair. His arms are bent at 90 degree angles and shaking up and down. Like he just got the best present in the world. I don’t think he remembers where he’s at right now. He’s in a mode that adults can never imagine. We did at one time, but those days are long gone. He’s lost in this hand.
7th Card: Another Wild Draw 4. He can’t believe it. He’s visibly freaking out from sheer awesomeness. I wish I could feel what he was feeling. Because it looked so nice. He was so damn excited that he was dealt seven wilds. We ask him again what he is so excited about and this time he breaks down. He knows not to show his cards to the other players but he can’t help it. He shows me and Mark his hand and starts screaming how he was just dealt seven wild cards. Screaming how he can’t wait to beat us. It was awesome. His dad is smiling. Billy is screaming louder. He is almost in shock because he is so excited. Me and Mark just witnessed a little kid receive extreme excitement one card at a time. It was awesome. I can’t explain it.
I get Billy’s attention and Mark goes to work. Before we dealt the hand we removed all the Skip and Reverse cards. I get my cards under the table from Mark.
We start the game.
Me and Mark use our cards to cheat and we skipped Billy every time and reversed back to each other. BAM! bam…BAM! It happened quick. The game is over. Mark won. I had one card left. Billy had all 7 in his hand. All Wilds. He was dumbfounded. He looked up at me and Mark and back down to his hand again. Me and Mark jumped up and started dancing around and chanting how much better we were at UNO than Billy. There he sat. Staring at his 7 wilds thinking what the hell just happened to me. He was silent. He almost cried. Me and Mark got up and started parading around the house.
I like to think I taught him a life lesson. But really, I think I was just being a real big dick. Either way. It was the funniest thing I’ve seen in a long time =)
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 5, 2010 9:12 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
jack handey?
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
is that worth reading?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 9:15 PM EST up reply actions
only if you hate children.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
Nothing quite brings a smile to my face
As much as tears from a child
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 5, 2010 9:17 PM EST up reply actions
sideshow bob?
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
It was...
if you’ve done the holiday Uno thing… I’m gonna f****** do this.
Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word
you can't always win
even at uno
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
great story
ended with a girly smily face.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
i think you must of turned your web cam on by accident
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 5, 2010 9:23 PM EST up reply actions
not sure that works.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 9:26 PM EST up reply actions
i don't get it
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Contract details
sorry if this has been posted above – too lazy to look per mlb
“The contract includes a $17 million vesting option for 2017, which will kick in if Holliday finishes in the top 10 in National League Most Valuable Player voting in 2016.
The Associated Press reported that the buyout on the vesting option is worth $1 million, making the total guaranteed value of the pact $120 million. If the option vests, Holliday will receive $136 million over the life of the pact. However, AP also reported that the contract includes some deferred money, which would lower the present-day value of the contract to $16 million per year. "
oh, neat
about the deferred money
7/112 is solid
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
no, it's 7/120
there is a $1 m. buyout on the eighth (option) year – if it vests, it does so at $17 so then the contract is 8/136 – otherwise, it’s 7/119 plus the $1 m. buyout
yeah
but with $1MM deferred, we’re paying him 7/112 (113 with the buyout) during the contract.
the deferred $7MM won’t be hard to come by and will be a lot cheaper if put into a high interest account and build for 10 years
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
keith law's take
not sure if you need insider access
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4799415&name=law_keith
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
looking at the url,
i;m gonna say yes
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
keith law is an asshat.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 9:23 PM EST up reply actions
Also
also from mlb:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100105&content_id=7878386&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
Boras said that Holliday’s choices with other clubs included shorter contracts with a higher average annual value.
“There were options,” Boras said. “Matt gave me direction to pursue some options in advance of others. But certainly it was a process for him where he really had an opportunity to choose a direction that was most given to his and Leslee’s needs.”
“The way Cardinal fans treated me the entire time I was there, from the first at-bat until the last at-bat, I definitely think that’s something you consider, and something I did consider,” Holliday told Gottlieb. “I was obviously very appreciative of the way I was treated there. Those things do weigh into your decision-making. I think every player wants to be appreciated for playing hard and playing well, and I think they definitely do that.”
With Holliday back in the fold, the Cardinals have committed approximately $80.5 million in salaries for 2010. Salaries for arbitration-eligible and pre-arbitration players have yet to be determined, but will likely take the total up to around $93-94 million.
Assuming the Cardinals come in with a payroll of approximately $100 million, that means they still have some leeway to sign another player or two. The club has interest in a starting pitcher, a bat or two off the bench, and possibly a third baseman and a right-handed reliever.
no, I want you to give him a goddamn cake
by vivaelpujols on Jan 5, 2010 9:20 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
who's our gooey butter guy?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
we do pies around these parts
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
HE LIKED THE PIE
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
so the pie... actually worked?
damn, I was hoping it would stay ironic.
on the other hand, I have this tasty pie….
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I'm not doing it
but yes, it seems Operation: Midwest Nice! Engage! was actually a success.
of course they never tell you that once you’ve filled them with pie, they over-stay their welcome in the guest bedroom and drink all your good wine.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Next person
I hear say “DeWitt, open DeWallet.” I am going to kick them in the nuts.
Then torture their soul for the next 70 centuries before devouring it. (cook with real wine, not that cooking wine bullcrap.)
by Evilfrog on Jan 5, 2010 9:18 PM EST reply actions 9 recs
putting the evil in evilfrog since 2007.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
damn it, if anything ever deserved to be green, this does
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
i'm gdm & i couldn't approve of this message any more even if i had said it myself
rec’d rec’d rec’d & rec’d some moar
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
twitter dialogs
fungoes: Holliday press conference question 1, for Mo: “How sure were you of another bidder’s offer, and how much did it take to beat it?” stlcards
fungoes: Holliday press conference question 2, for Holliday: “Would you have signed this deal if you hadn’t played the 2nd half with Cards?” stlcards
goold @ fungoes Would they have offered it?
fungoes: @ dgoold That’s an excellent Question 3, for Mo! Your thoughts?
fungoes: (@ dgoold @ matthewhleach) That leads to Question 4 (w/predictable reply): How much of this was driven by a need for return on losing Wallace?
Leach: @ fungoes Hopefully none. Truthfully, probably some.
also, I don’t wanna know what this is about:
@ MatthewHLeach Agreed. No chance. This contract goes back 14 months — and maybe even longer — when the man crush started. #stlcards
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I don't buy it unless Kanye says so.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I called it last night
told mo to get the deal done this afternoon… granted it was late afternoon, but I called it woooooo
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 9:21 PM EST up reply actions
sometimes I get it right
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 9:23 PM EST up reply actions
dayton moore thinks we should have given the money to scott podsednik instead.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
and when they draft AJ.
oh, but only if AJ doesn’t go to college, which the ’rents might not like… or he finishes college early.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
lol
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 9:31 PM EST up reply actions
i
don’t see what’s so fucking funny, chitown
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
*passes the nitrous oxide*
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
stop bogarting the good stuff y'all!
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Dude...
I can see a preference for six years, but hate?
Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word
i wouldn't say hate.
it’s more than i think we should have laid down. it carries more risk than i’m comfortable with.
7 years is just a really long time. there’s little if any discount given in consideration for that risk. i’d rather give a 7-year contract to matt holliday if i have to, but i don’t like the years or the dollars. it’s not ridiculous, but it’s not very likable.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
vep would, though
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
Lets be real here
this deal is great for us over the next 4 years…probably good over the next 5…i’m ok with the last couple years sucking for us
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
so you're using the apocalypse projections?
just checking…
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Big Mac and Matt
Anyone else excited to see the impact that Mac could potentially have on a player like Holliday? No jokes here – I’m serious..
what's he gonna do?
SHOW HIM WHERE TO STICK THE NEEDLE?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
but nah
mac has already worked with holliday
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
and holliday hated it
numbers took an upturn when he went back to his old way…i think the mac-holliday connected has been overstated
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
he couldn't have hated it much
if he stuck with it for 2 months. i think it just didn’t work
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
gottlieb brought this up
holliday basically said that while the leg kick was something he needed to revert too mac helped him on the cerebral side of hitting. whether he was being diplomatic or not i don’t know so take it fwiw
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
Resident malcontented betamale
yeah i thought he did when he broke into the bigs
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
I don't really think so
Holliday’s already an established major league hitter with a very unique syle – I wouldn’t even want Mac to try and help him.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 5, 2010 10:01 PM EST up reply actions
he has already tried though
remember all the noise about that last season?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Goold debunked this
too lazy to look it up, but he GoodReporter’d it. I’m going w/ it till I hear different
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
fucking gorgeous.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
callin' bullshit
on colby’s defensive projection
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
because he's better than +6
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
shut up
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
i'm going with
his 65.2 in RF as his true talent
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
joe strauss tweet
Story going up soon @STLtoday.com. You probably don’t have to stay up late to guess this one.
http://twitter.com/JoeStrauss/status/7426661710
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 10:10 PM EST reply actions
sure but i'll try
the cards re-signed Duncan?
This guys so good(Pujols) He should be illegal-Pirates announcers
i think we deserve some unicorns.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
does anyone else think that finding a unicorn's brick is rather disgusting?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jan 5, 2010 11:22 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
welcome back to STL Mr Holliday
For out $120 million in the next 7 years we expect:
1. No dropped balls in playoff games
2. No striking out looking in playoff games
3. 7 NL Central pennants
4. fire Scott Boras and never again behave like such a prima donna like you did during FA
5. for you to not get hurt
6. for you to work out extra to burn the calories from all the pie
7. give some of that paycheck to local charities
8. MOAR DINGERS
9. MOAR RINGS, flags and fireworks!!
anyone wanna add something?
by d-dee on Jan 5, 2010 10:13 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
rec'd.
10. learn the caroms off the Busch wall already.
11. learn the caroms off all the NL Central walls. helpful hint: there’s brick under the ivy.
13. don’t actually injure Boog in a flying chest-bump.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jan 5, 2010 10:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
14. Spend time with Colby so you can understand when he calls for balls in the OF
by ubeddie on Jan 5, 2010 10:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
man, that had better not turn into a comedy-team out there
and Luddy is too nice to tell anyone how to play the outfield.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Boog wouldn't kill anyone.
set into motion of a spectacular Rube Goldberg-like trainwreck where only he and his sunflower seeds emerge unscathed, only to break an as-yet un-fractured bone trying to lay off a pitch in his next PA? yes. but kill anyone? no.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
dangolflyballcominguptherei'magonnacatchdatdamnthingouttamahwaynow.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 6:39 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
But Colby never calls for balls. That's one of his issues.
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
no 12?
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
or... maybe it was "???"
damn my memory.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
hey, my 12. disappeared.
it was probably ‘learn the caroms off all the National League parks’.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
that joke is already getting old
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
he did it knowing its getting old therefore his audacity to still do it is what is in fact humorous
meta comedy man….our generation is drowned in it
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
Resident malcontented betamale
prolly already stated
but randy johnson’s retirement makes me sad…end of an era
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
triple play 99
throw sliders on the lower inside to right handed hitters with him and they could never hit it with him.
also this:
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
Resident malcontented betamale
what was the ruling on that pitch?
interference? ball?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
If I remember correctly,
I think it was a re-pitch but I don’t know. I may have made that up. I might look it up in a second after I make my tea if no one else does.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
So it is actually called a "no pitch."
Wikipedia
The unlucky bird swooped across the infield just as Johnson was releasing the ball. After being struck by the pitch, the bird landed dead amid a “sea of feathers.” The official call was “no pitch.”
link
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
+1!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
i picture it would not be unlike the scene in holy grail
where the animator keels over and dies thus ceasing animation
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
Resident malcontented betamale
by slu on Jan 6, 2010 1:31 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
ty
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I really thought he would stick around to get 5000 K's
separate him and Clemens a bit.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
which ones do i vote for?
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
Anything written by VEP, :-)
lol
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
it's going to be weird not seeing Chris Duncan start in LF this spring
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 10:26 PM EST reply actions
but all the left fielders didn't go along with the mustache solidarity.
that’s how I knew CDunc was on his way out. uh huh. yup.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Weird and awesome
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Jan 5, 2010 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
sometimes weirdness is awesome
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
i've been telling women that for years & they never pick up what i'm dropping down
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Current 40-man roster and payroll
With the Holliday signing, our payroll seems to sit around 94M.
40-man roster and payroll table(click)
You can’t trade Allen Craig. He’s the best bat off the bench right now.
Cardinals fan from Korea
nice work man
GOD that lohse deal UGLY.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
but, but
what about Stavinoha!? (god I hope they release him asap)
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
does he still exist?
I thought he was just this Miles-induced hallucination
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
yeah
I had blocked him out of my mind until I looked at that sheet
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
cubs fan status on facebook
Ok I know all you Cardinal fans are excited about this Holliday guy, but the Cubs got rid of Bradley. That pretty much makes us evenly matched!
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
ROFLCOPTER
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Jan 5, 2010 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
Yup.
Pretty much. We are totally evenly matched.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
it really evened out when everyone lost DeRosa.
right?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I must be nice to be in your own world...
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
uh
yeah
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
Marlon Byrd = Matt Holliday.
oh yes.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 6, 2010 6:41 AM EST up reply actions
another strauss tweet
Holliday deal likely spells end to Miggy Tejada or Flip Lopez in St. Louis, according to “well-placed” Cardinals sources. #stlcards
http://twitter.com/JoeStrauss/status/7427571525
um…duh.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 10:37 PM EST reply actions
yeah he's starting to lose my respect.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
it takes a lot...
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 10:49 PM EST up reply actions
I hesitate to do this....
but in Strauss’ defense, remember the people who comment on STLtoday.com. They need tweets like this.
"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR
heh
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 10:45 PM EST up reply actions
derrick rose!
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
sure
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I propose hollirosa changes his avatar to rose marie
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I for one was concerned for your existence.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I sit at a computer all day at work
Its hard for me to come home and get on the computer again….I do mis VEB though
someone here follows on mobile
but I don’t know how to work that, so you may have to dig around SBN
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
same as a computer
you go to veb and post
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
As the roster currrently stands in the NL Central
Holliday easily could be the difference between the Playofffs and not for the next 2 years at least. I wonder if the Carindals factored that into the cost
Boras is a con artist
We just gave in 7 yrs, 120 million + a no trade clause for a player that had no market. Neither NY teams wouldve paid that, BOS opted signing much shorter term and smarter deals with cameron, scutaro, and beltre. Bidding against themselves for Holliday. When the only known other “bidder” is the orioles, thats a huge hint there. Oh well, enjoy the extra $20 million holliday. Personally,this team still has issues with the bullpen, back rotation, and i’m not at all sold on the 3b/SS/2b positions. Lets hope either additional deals not blowing their whole wad of payroll just on holliday this offseason
this makes no sense
read the comments, the “cardinals bidding against themselves” comments are asinine.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
Brenday Ryan at SS is fine with me
Schumaker is a ? but could be a very good bargain if the continues to improve on D at second, which I think he will. my biggest worry right now is Franklin, and Larussa not pulling the plug on him fast enough as the closer, but I think perhaps Motte will be able to step in, if no one else. as far as the back of the rotation, I suppose it could be an issue, but I doubt it. Garcia, Boggs, someone should be able to step up if we don’t sign anyone else. third base should be covered with one of Freese, Craig, Mather, I just hope they give Craig a chance at third if Freese doesn’t pan out
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
ryan's glove alone is worth it's fair share of wins.
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
exactly
he is an amazing shortstop. nuff said
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
ryan’s glove mustache alone is worth it’s fair share of wins.
by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 5, 2010 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
I believe in Skip.
And Ryan is a fantastic defensive SS like you said. 3B will have to work itself out. I hope it does and there are the options you mention. I am hoping Mather is healthy and good this year. I love him.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
at least Thurston is not here anymore to take over third
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 5, 2010 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
I don't get how we're thin on the middle infield
when the org philosophy is strengthening the MI positions because of our pitching coach. we’re giving away MI’s. to other countries.
the curse of Scottie is another thing altogether, though.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I dunno...
I really doubt every offer was made public. So we don’t know just who or what they were bidding against. While I do think Moe Has a track record of being a bit too eager (see Lohse, most notably), who knows?
I personally think they did overpay, at least in length, but they really had no other options. Spending the $17 million on lesser players wouldn’t equal the impact of him plus whoever they can scrape up. They went from maybe making the playoffs to almost certainly making them.
And unless the economy continues to tank (which is a possibility), 17 million 5-6 years from now is far less than $17 million now.
The way it apparently is, $17 million a year, means that they both still have money to spend this year fixing a few minor problems (like say, getting one more okay starter like Smoltz) and won’t have to worry about his salary ballooning in years down the road. It won’t get smaller, but thanks to inflation (possibly hyperinflation is on the way, the way money has been printed lately), the value will be less.
over 1,100 comments...
follow me on twitter @nickg105
by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 5, 2010 11:25 PM EST reply actions
Was there not just an overflow on the main page?
So confused.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
there was
then I saw, for a fraction of a second, that larry posted one at the same time I did, so I hid mine—but he saw I’d posted one at the same time he did, so he deleted his. Now I am beginning to doubt that his thread existed at all. He’s a wily one, lboros.
Overflow here
So what your saying is......
you hosed us out of an lboros post. Way to go Danup……WTG.
* is an Asshat
not just you guys—
I hosed me out of an lboros post, in my haste to get back to the VEB editorial page and hide my own version. truly an f’in danup moment
larry?
larry?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
i just don't know anyone's first names
guessing it’s lboros, though, based on RR
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
You aren't named Prophet??
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
1. Try to figure out what his first name is.
2. ????
3. Prophet!
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Jan 7, 2010 6:04 AM EST up reply actions
as far as i know
only flim knows my name because of my che shirt ordering
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
not that it's a big deal
i’m a member of another board where everyone knows my name, some are facebook friends and some i’ve hung out with in person.
i just think that since no one on veb is on a first name basis, i’ll go with the flow
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
you're neither a prophet
or a john?
you’re a big ol’ fraud!
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
7 years is such a long time
i’ve never been a big fan of the guy, i’ve always felt he was one of the most overrated players in the MLB & was a coors made player. i’ve always known his D wasn’t all it was cracked up to be. and i’m not even going to reference the nut shot that broke all our hearts. and we all know the reason we made the playoffs last year wasn’t because of our O, it was our pitching. sure Lego helped, but that still wasn’t a big help. Lego doesn’t make the O go, Albert does. a healthy Albert means a healthy Cardinals O. Lego is just a piece of the puzzel. just how big of a piece has been debated & hashed over the last 6 months. i’m of the belief that Colby & Luddy performance in front of & behind Albert will lead to more runs than anything Lego can or will do. Albert & Lego can only do so much, yes they are one of the best combos in the game. but if you don’t pitch to them & get the rest of the lineup out, you can beat the Cardinals. but if Colby & Luddy both hit to their potential, then my friends, the Cardinals have something very, very special on their hands. and suddenly the 2-6 spots in the order become a nightmare for the rest of the MLB.
if you add in the fact that every comment he made last summer was right out of the Boras script, meaning he never let himself or us fans totally fall in love with each other. and his interview today sounded even less in love than before, something still just doesn’t feel right to me about this guy. i feel like he’s trying to pull something over on us & the team. i don’t trust him at all. but he’s ours now so i better get used to it.
i hate the 7th year though. i’m disappointed, but not mad about the $17Mil per year too. i still think MO could have done a $15-$16Mil per over 6, but he bid against himself. no, that’s not the case at all. this deal has DeWitt’s fingerprints all over it. i think Bill himself took the lead & Mo rode shotgun. i’m not saying it was a bad deal, it could have been so, sooooo much worse. i just think they could have done a better deal & got anxious & sick of Boras dragging his feet so Bill made it happen. and good for him, it’s his cash he can spend it how ever he wants to. i just don’t want to hear him crying poor here in a few years when i comes time to pay ADAM & Colby after he’s done this & now has to pay Albert $25-$30Mil per in a year or two.
all in all, i guess this is a good thing even if it doesn’t feel like a good thing. i don’t know where i’ll be in 8 years when this deal has reached a end, i just hope i’m in a much better place than i am now. i feel the same way about the Cardinals & i hope you all do to. one thing this does tell us is DeWitt & CO feel the team will be better off or there’s no way they commit this much money & this many years to Lego. so i guess we’re going to have to take that leap of faith & trust them on this one.
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
by gdm426 on Jan 6, 2010 1:52 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
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