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NL Central Offseason Revue Pt. 3: The Houston Artificial Grass Substitutes

To open with a particularly apropos quote, I'm not here to talk about the past.

No, my concern this morning is not the past, ladies and gentlemen, but the future! The future of the division we all hold so dear to our collective breasts, that extra-teamed group known as the National League Central. I come before you today not to dwell upon what has gone before, but to shed light on what shall be! I ask you, are you ready, ladies and gentlemen?

What was that? I can't hear you! I said, are you ready?!

Alright, now that we're all properly pumped up, let us take a look at the next team in our (now) alphabetically organised list of competitors: the Astros of Houston, Texas.

Star-divide

Houston Astros 2009 Record: 74-88, 17 games out of first

Pythagorean Record: 68-94 (643 runs scored, 770 allowed)

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I just don't quite understand what the Houston Astros are thinking most days. Drayton McLane just seems to get crazier and crazier every year, and a once-great franchise just seems to be slowly sinking further and further into the sea. Then again, the Astros have had a couple very strong drafts in a row now, so perhaps there is hope on the horizon after all.

Nonetheless, I'm having a hell of a time figuring out just how the Astros look at the world. As bad as their record was, they actually outperformed their pythagorean, so the truth may be even more unpleasant than the reality. With that in mind, you might think the Astros would finally do the unthinkable and start their badly needed rebuilding process in earnest.

Yes, you might think that. However, you would be wrong.

 Offense: It was supposed to be the strength of the Astros going into the 2009 season, an offense featuring bats up and down the lineup capable of producing. Unfortunately, someone forgot to tell the Astros' hitters how imposing they were supposed to be, and the results were not so good.

Lance Berkman still makes the Houston offense go, and he'll be back in 2010. The Big Puma's production numbers slipped a bit from 2008 to '09, largely due to some nagging injuries, but he still managed to provide the 'Stros with a force in the middle of the lineup. Carlos Lee, the Astros' other big-ticket hitter, was good as well, but he wasn't great. The unfortunate thing, of course, is the Astros are paying Lee to be great.

Hunter Pence proved to be a solid contributor, an .800+ OPS hitter with plus defense in right field. Michael Bourn wins the Great Leap Forward Award, as he improved his OPS by 150 points from 2008 to 2009. (.588 to .738) An OPS+ of 96 may not seem all that impressive, but when it comes from a solid defensive center fielder, it certainly isn't anything to sneeze at, either. (See also Rasmus, Colby)

That's the good. Now for the bad.

The Astros gave over 500 plate appearances to Kaz Matsui and his .659 OPS. They also gave Ivan Rodriguez half a season's worth of ABs to put up a .662. Rodriguez will be plying his trade elsewhere this season, so that helps. The same can't be said of Matsui, sadly.

Houston did go out and sign Pedro Feliz to a very nice contract; at $4.5 million he should represent a solid value. Feliz isn't much shakes with the lumber, though, preferring to make his money with the glove. He'll be better overall that Geoff Blum was, but I'm not sure how much he'll really contribute to the cause of improving the Houston offense.

The biggest departure for the Astros on the offensive side of things is Miguel Tejada, who posted a .795 OPS last year at short. It appears Houston will attempt to fill Tejada's shoes with Tommy Manzella, a 26 year old who posted a .750 OPS last year in Triple A. The reports on Manzella's defense are generally positive, and he should represent a definite upgrade over the increasingly immobile Tejada.  Still, the dropoff in offense may make the whole thing a zero-sum game. Of course, the money saved still makes it the right decision.

As far as the catcher position, I really don't have much of a read on what the 'Stros are thinking. The two favourites for the job are JR Towles, who has struggled badly since his red-hot debut, but still has a ton of talent and certainly could be used strictly as an anti-Cardinal weapon if all else fails. Humberto Quintero played a significant amount at the big league level last year and looks like a solid if unspectacular player. He didn't hit a ton, but garnered positive reviews for his defense, throwing out 46% of attempted basestealers. Between Quintero and Towles, the Astros likely have most of the backstop playing time locked up at little more than league minimum.

One intriguing option could be Jason Castro, the Astros' first-round pick in 2008. He's still awfully young, and is almost certainly headed to Triple A to begin the season, but his ceiling is almost certainly higher than either of the 'Stros incumbents, and it's not out of the realm of possibility Castro could make his way to Houston this year.

Starting Pitching

Just as Lance Berkman is the engine that drives the Houston offense, the Astros' starting rotation is largely driven by a superstar moving into the downside of his career: Roy Oswalt. Oswalt is still a very good starter, though his 2009 numbers were certainly a step down from his typical season. Nonetheless, I fully expect to see Oswalt on the mound for the Astros on Opening Day and inhabiting the nightmares of Cardinal fans throughout the summer.

There was, however, a bit of a passing of the torch in 2009, as the top of the Houston rotation saw Wandy F. Rodriguez step forward to become the team's de facto ace.  Perhaps fittingly, Wandy also inherited Oswalt's position in baseball as a whole, as he may now be the most underrated pitcher in the game. Unfortunately for the rest of the division, there's really nothing in Wandy's statistical profile that suggests he's due to fall off a cliff any time soon.

The rest of the Astros' rotation in 2009 was a rather piecemeal affair, with Brian Moehler making 29 starts and Mike Hampton, Felipe Paulino, Russ Ortiz(!), and Bud Norris combining to shoulder the rest of the load. Of those five, Moehler, Paulino, and Norris all look to be returning in 2010. Moehler is a really, really bad starter, except when he's pitching against the Cardinals. He's sort of like the JR Towles of the pitching world. Norris and Paulino, on the other hand, are extremely talented young pitchers who both need nothing more than time to develop. Norris is a bit further along, and looked like an emerging young stud at times last year. Paulino may have even more electric stuff, but is also quite a bit more raw.

The Astros recently made a move to upgrade their rotation with the addition of Brett 'Why Do You Make Me Hit You?' Myers. He'll slot in behind Wandy and Oswalt, if he can prove he's fully healthy, and could certainly represent a powerful force as a #3 starter.

And then, of course, the mere fact that Russ Ortiz won't be anywhere near the Houston rotation in 2010 is cause enough for optimism. Call it the Todd Wellemeyer Effect.

Bullpen

And here's where things get really weird. Two words: Brandon Lyon.

Last season, Houston had one of the toughest closers in all of baseball, with Jose Valverde locking up the leads he managed to get. Valverde won't be with the Astros in 2010, leaving a very large hold at the back end of their bullpen. It looks as if they will try to fill in that hole with a combination of two Winter Meeting pickups: Matt Lindstrom and the aforementioned Mr. Lyon. Lindstrom is certainly the more imposing of the two, with closer stuff, but Brandon Lyon somehow keeps getting handed closer jobs, and I just can't quite figure it out. How the 'Stros deal with the end of games may be one of the more intriguing storylines in the entire division this coming season.

 The rest of the bullpen was solid, but not extremely noteworthy in '09. Jeff Fulchino and Tim Byrdak were both useful arms and will return in 2010. LaTroy Hawkins was shockingly good, but has taken off for greener pastures.

Offseason Priorities

Honestly, it seems the Astros have already finished what they're likely to do this offseason. They paid way too much for Brandon Lyon to help fill in for the departing Valverde, and the signing of Brett Myers gives them a remarkably solid rotation. (Well, potentially, anyway.)

Other than those moves, Houston actually appears to be in a bit of a holding pattern. The outfield is set, the right side of the infield is under contract. They seem to be looking at internal options for both catcher and shortstop, with catcher in particular a position the Astros have high hopes for in the very near future. Feliz gives them a solid presence at third base, though he certainly isn't a long-term solution.

I think the Astros are probably finished. They don't really even have a need for any utility help with Geoff Blum and Jeff Keppinger both hanging around, so even the fringe moves we so often see for teams going into spring training will likely be thin on the ground in Astroland.

The Bottom Line

I don't think the Astros are going to be much of a threat this season. I look at their woeful Pythagorean record from a year ago and I see a team who just doesn't have the firepower to get it done. Then, I look at what their rotation could be capable of, and I'm not so sure. If Oswalt returns to form and Wandy can replicate his 2009 performance, they have an elite 1-2 punch. Myers is remarkably similar to Brad Penny in my assessment; both are power pitchers who have always had better arms than results and have fallen on hard times recently. Either one could easily recapture some bit of their promise and end up being very, very good.

At the back of the rotation, I think Houston holds a real advantage. Norris is an emerging star, and Kyle Lohse is, well, Kyle Lohse. The 5th starter spot is probably a wash, with Houston having the more dynamic arm in Paulino but the Cardinals having the more impressive pitcher in Garcia. (Plus whatever else may come.) At the very least, the 'Stros could always just stick Moehler in that 5th spot against the Cardinals and ensure themselves of one victory in any given series.

Personally, I see the Astros back in the 4th/5th spot in the division, the victims of an offense that could really use some more oomph and a bullpen that won't come near the standards of Houston bullpens past. Then again, I also see them as the team most likely to beat you 3-2 on any given day, and that could very well make them a dangerous team.

The Baron's Playlist for the 13th of January, 2009

"Metanoia" - MGMT

"Think Long" - Mates of State

"The City Waltz" - The Ghost is Dancing

"X-Pat" - Octoberman

"Save Me Save Me" - Xiu Xiu

"Laura" - Girls

2 recs  |  Comment 537 comments |

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We traded Kyle Lohse...

to the Astros? Brilliant!

Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word

by guayzimi on Jan 13, 2010 11:51 AM EST reply actions  

+1

it seems hard for me to imagine the astros not coming in 5th or 6th. wandy and oswalt have to basically go out and throw complete games every fifth day for them to even have a chance, and that only adds up to 60ish wins.

follow me on twitter @nickg105

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 13, 2010 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t understand why they didn’t just sign Valverde and trade for Lindstrom — they probably would have spent a little more money than they did on Lyon, but at least they’d have a legit closer at the back end of the bullpen.

Yup. They could’ve saved a couple of mill on 3B by just signing Joe Crede, too, who’s Pedro Feliz with more injury issues.

I also kind of agree with you that RB is somewhat over-rating the back end of the Astros’ rotation. Paulino isn’t that great and Norris is yet to convince me. Still, IF everything breaks right they could have a good rotation.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 13, 2010 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

If they have Moehler

We are SCREWED!

In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his recievers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)

by Taskmaster on Jan 13, 2010 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I lol'd
Astros fans are going to get treated to Replacement Level Tuesday, Minor League Equivalent Wednesday, and Is This the Wife Beater from Philly? Thursdays all season long.

A rec for you, sir

You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?

by jd is legend on Jan 13, 2010 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

And one from me...

Maybe they could make a T-shirt? Put that up against old 10-run Sunday ones or something.

VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 13, 2010 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

where's Flim? he's the t shirt man

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I am proud to say

I logged in just to give this the 6th rec.

by nota bene on Jan 13, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Seems to me

the Astros may be a little smarter than you give them credit, RB (though probably only a little). Sounds like they have a program this year to develop their young starting pitching. With so much of it, and the problems on offense, they probably aren’t going anywhere this year whatever else they do. Reasonable to (semi) write off this year, give their young pitchers and shortstop playing time to see what they have, and perhaps try harder next year. Of course, this assumes Oswalt, Berkman, and Lee will still be productive then.

by CRay on Jan 13, 2010 11:57 AM EST reply actions  

It's going to get ugly this year in Houston

What they gained in Feliz, they lost with Manzella; what they gained with Myers, they lost with Lyon. Plus there’s dropoffs waiting to happen all over the place: Oswalt and his bulging disks, Wandy, Bourn… Bourn alone is going to hemorrage 2.5 wins according to CHONE, and this is a team that had a 68-94 pythg record last year.

As for their pitching, I’ll bet you anything Moehler starts in the rotation and Paulino gets kicked to the pen…

Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word

by guayzimi on Jan 13, 2010 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but I'm like of like CRay.

You have to give the franchise some credit for being willing to hang on to their core players, even if they are past their prime a bit. Oswalt and Berkman have been the face of that franchise for years, and it creates a lot of good will to the community that the ’Stros are willing to be that loyal to them. They did the same with Biggio, and they tried to be as loyal as they could with Ausmus.

I wish they weren’t in the Central, because I like the way they are run. They are my second-favorite team. They aren’t terribly hamstrung by horrible contracts (except Lee) into the future, and they do have some very exciting young players both in the minors and at the ML level.

With all that being said, they should be penalized 10 wins every year for having the dumbest ballpark in the major leagues.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Jan 13, 2010 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

There's something...

to be said for loyalty, but they’ve lost attendance four years in a row and are now 9th of 16 teams in the NL, according to BR data. Their strategy since 2006 is to go into every season with no legitimate shot, play poorly, spend a bunch of money without getting any better, then rinse and repeat.

Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word

by guayzimi on Jan 13, 2010 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

when you’re losing fans as it is, maybe it’s best to trade Oswalt and Berkman while they still have some value, then start over fresh with a bunch of young prospects and a rebuilt farm system while letting the kids play.

They went all-in a couple of years ago at the wrong time and gave up way to much for Tejada. Their lineup could really use Luke Scott about now, considering that Berkman is the only LHH they have that can scare anyone. Feliz is a worthless signing, and Lyon is signed for multiple years after a so-so campaign in Detroit last year where he couldn’t hold down the closer or set-up jobs.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I think I follow the Astros closer...

than any team, aside from the Cards. They won the pennant in 05, were 500 in 06, then lost 90 in 07. At that point, Berkman and Oswalt were still beasts and Lee’s contract was semi-movable given his decent performance. They could’ve acquired massive talent and cleared payroll. Instead they went with Tejada and Kaz Matsui. We’re really lucky they went in that direction.

Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word

by guayzimi on Jan 13, 2010 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

That's what I was trying to say

Had they gone in another direction, kept Luke Scott, and signed, say, Adam Everett to play SS, they’d look a lot better right now, that’s for sure. They also could have kept Chad Qualls and not overpaid to acquire Valverde and his huge contract. They’ve kinda lost the Bourn trade too, as Lidge turned in at least one good season in Philly and Bourn really hasn’t lived up to his potential.

Although I’m sure they didn’t think the Jason Lane and their two catching prospects were going to be complete busts either.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2010 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

It's fun to think back...

on all the fiascos – Jason Jennings seems so long ago.

Once McLane sells the team and they’re able to reset the payroll in 2012, they’ll soon be the cream of the NL Central. The natural order – given market size/geography/stadium – is Houston, Chicago, STL/Cincy, Milwaukee/Pittsburgh. There’s just so much stupidity in this division right now…

Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word

by guayzimi on Jan 13, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmmmm. . .

I don’t know that I agree with that ordering of market size. Houston is a bigger metro area to be sure, but as far as a “baseball market”, I don’t see it outranking either Chicago or St. Louis.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 13, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

CHicagoland is almost twice as big

9.something million to 5.something million.

If you cut Chicagoland down to just Cook County, it’s probably 7m.

by sdrone on Jan 13, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

But...

half of Chicago doesn’t care for the north siders and they’ve got a pee wee stadium. If they could charge $9 for a bottle of water like at Fenway, that would be one thing, but prices seem relatively reasonable. I think their revenues are roughly comparable, from what I’ve read.

Another thing to consider: Houston built it’s last great team out of Texans who wanted to come home and were willing to take a discount. Texas pumps out a ton of talent. I happen to think Houston is an armpit, but I lot of people like it.

Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word

by guayzimi on Jan 13, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

No way is Houston a better baseball market than Chicago

Houstonians only come when the ’Stros win. Cubs fans will fill the stadium no matter how bad the Cubs are. The Cubs also have big revenue streams from the surrounding rooftops, local TV, etc.

St. Louis is a better baseball market too, IMHO, and a better stadium.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 13, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

that's entire metro area, though

actual city pop is chicago – 2.8, houston – 2.2

thy’re pretty comparable in size

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 13, 2010 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

They’ve kinda lost the Bourn trade too, as Lidge turned in at least one good season in Philly and Bourn really hasn’t lived up to his potential.

Not really sure I agree. Bourn was really valuable last year, and he really turned around his hitting profile, got on base at an acceptable clip (slightly BABIP-inflated, I think, but given his speed if he can even maintain an average OBP he’s quite valuable down the order), and is a good fielder. I think they got several cheap years of an above-average player for a slightly over-rated and expensive closer, personally.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 14, 2010 7:36 AM EST up reply actions  

thing is

they haven’t really got enough young, impact talent in the high minors to do much in the forthcoming year or two. Castro’s about their only good prospect at that level, and he only really profiles as an average-to-slightly-above catcher, from what I’ve heard. They’re pretty much stuck treading water and hoping to luck into the postseason for the next 2 years. Trouble is, they’ve had a TON of luck the last two seasons and finished well off the pace. If it all breaks even, they’re headed to a pretty bad record, IMO.

The young starters they have (Paulino & Norris) are OK but they’re not going to be aces at the big league level. Likewise the other young role-players (Pence, Bourn, Manzella) – they either know what they’ve got (above average guys in pence & bourn) or they’re not going to turn into anything special (Manzella).

Also, they’ve got an owner who knows nothing about baseball and is apparently trying to offload the team (and who I suspect might trim payroll if he can’t), and a GM who may well be close to the worst in baseball. They really need to rebuild, trouble is, the ownership and front office are not the right people to get it done.

I’ve said a couple of times here that I think the Astros could be headed into being the worst franchise in baseball in a year or two; perhaps that’s slightly melodramatic, but I really feel that going into a holding pattern now is doing them no good. They should trade berkman sometime close to the deadline, keep Lee as their notional “star” for the fans (i.e. because no-one will eat that horrific contract) and perhaps look to get some value out of, say, Hunter Pence, as he might be their best trade chip. It’s time to blow this thing up.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 13, 2010 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't disagree, Felonius

but given their situation, what else can they do but hope for luck? And, as said above, they will keep attendance up by holding on to some of their key (and well-liked) players. IF some of their youngsters prove to be better than anticipated, then next year they might try to sign some better free agents and try to seriously contend. Though as you said, this would imply they know what they are doing!

by CRay on Jan 13, 2010 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

there's some truth in that, actually

it probably doesn’t hurt them THAT much, now they’ve built a team to TRY to contend, to at least have a go this year. I can’t imagine too many teams are beating down the door to trader top prospects for any of their players, and a good season for Berkman (who, Pence aside, is probably their best asset) may help him regain some value. Perhaps he’ll actually be worth more at the deadline than he is now.

That’s the trouble when your major league team is treading water, your minor league system is mediocre and lacks impact talent, and your front office isn’t very good. Your hands are kinda tied. Even with the sort of rebuilding effort they need, they probably won’t be very relevant for a few years. However, putting it off just puts back the amount of time until they’ll be a winning team again.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 13, 2010 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I feel bad for 'Stros fans.

They had a really exciting team a few years ago. They don’t have much to look forward to for a while unless some changes are made at the top soon.

by arch support on Jan 13, 2010 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah

everybody forgets how good the mid-decade Killer Bs teams were.

by nota bene on Jan 13, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

as long as Dayton Moore is still employed

he’s guaranteed #30 on the GM power rankings, but point taken.

by nota bene on Jan 13, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

That's a little unfair

Minaya gives him a run for his money…and Minaya has a hell of a lot more cash to work with!

by stlfan on Jan 13, 2010 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I still think Moore's probably the worst GM around

but I agree he could probably do more with his “process” if he had more money to make it work. You can actually get decent players of the sort he likes with a bit of payroll. I’m sure the Royals would still suck, though.

Also, KC have done OK in terms of minor league development, compared at least to some teams. Whilst that’s not entirely Moore’s domain, I suppose I’d give him a lick of credit for it.

IMO, Brian Sabean and Ed Wade should be in the discussion too. Neither have a clue how to value major league talent and build a team with it, and consistently make moves that show facile over-estimation of certain player types, and a fundamental lack of understanding of what they actually need to add to improve. Wade’s stubborn reluctance to realise the Astros have been non-competitive for 3 years (if you include 2010) and to rebuild is one of the strangest pieces of cognitive dissonance in the GM world…

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 14, 2010 7:40 AM EST up reply actions  

a rebuilding theme fits with everything except throwing a pile of money at brandon lyon.

if you don't know what is wrong with me, then you don't know what you've missed. - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 13, 2010 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

so is it officially known as a rebuliding theme park?

I’ve need to check if fritz has a title on that artwork

Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 13, 2010 5:27 PM EST up reply actions  

is this where I mention someone wants to buy the team?

Someone wants to buy the team. McLane insists this does not mean he’s trying to sell.

Also they DFA’d Bourgeois.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 13, 2010 12:19 PM EST reply actions  

as much they're taking shots at Cards fans for forgiving and forgetting and pie

I don’t think most of the national media realizes: Hal McRae was that bad. He was that bad! Of course that’s relief in the streets of St. Louis.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 13, 2010 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

is it alright to pop in some Reds blurbs in a Stros post?

link

“So here’s the metaphor I used when teams expressed concern this would be for just the highest bidder, like New York or Boston,” Hendricks said. “‘If I had a great first baseman from Cuba, do you think I’d call the St. Louis Cardinals first?’ We wanted opportunity. We would like to put him in a system where he’d have an opportunity to emerge sooner.”

Besides staying competitive with the money and offering opportunity, the Reds also stressed the intangibles that would eventually help sway Chapman.

“We talked about having a Latin catcher [Ramon Hernandez] and a manager [Dusty Baker] that speaks Spanish,” assistant GM Bob Miller said. “We talked about our new facility in Goodyear, Ariz., and there being a good, young core of pitchers and players he could grow with. We talked up Bryan Price and the history of the Reds. He liked the idea of wearing the ‘C’ on his head.”

I have no words.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 13, 2010 12:48 PM EST reply actions  

Hmmmmm
He liked the idea of wearing the ‘C’ on his head."

All in favor of developing a special occasion Cardinals baseball cap (to be used on opening day, holidays, etc.) that has a C on it to lure braindead Cuban players to St. Louis please say “Aye.”.

AYE!

Thanks everyone, motion passed by a count of 4,000,000 to 1 (Damn you LaRussa and your traditionalist tendencies!!!)

You’re right Mr. Hendricks — his signing with Cincy had nothing to do with their offer being double what everyone else’s offer was.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2010 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Baker speaks Spanish?

I can just see Chapman listening, eyes growing wide with with fear, as Dusty tells him, “Mantengo mi juventud devorando las carreras de jarras jovenes.”

by dronemc on Jan 13, 2010 1:53 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Ciento cincuenta tiros...

son muy pocos por un caballo como ti…

Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word

by guayzimi on Jan 13, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

fyi - lanzador is the player; jarra is the thing you pour water out of.

if you don't know what is wrong with me, then you don't know what you've missed. - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 13, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Noted.

Future attempts at cross-lingual humor will first include a vocab check.

by dronemc on Jan 13, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

it was pretty funny, though. i rec'd it nonetheless.

if you don't know what is wrong with me, then you don't know what you've missed. - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 13, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

But does...

Dusty know that?

Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word

by guayzimi on Jan 13, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I took French in high school

Someone translate this sentence about a jar for me.

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

It means...

I maintain by your by devouring the careers of young [water carrying mechanisms]. I used the wrong spanish word for “pitcher”, it would seem.

by dronemc on Jan 13, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

so does Tony

it’s inexplicable.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 13, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

English mot...... aw screw it

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

He has devoured the careers of fine young pitchers before....

Dusty would not be my choice to develop a talented young pitcher, but who am I to say?

by madridbend on Jan 13, 2010 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Those toothpicks he's always chewing...

…are made out of shoulder shavings from Mark Prior.

by dronemc on Jan 13, 2010 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

it's really sad up here man

really depressingly sad. no media has even talked about this except a couple online stuff.

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

brandon jones

lets pick him up and make him our 4th outfielder

this has nothing to do with this post

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 13, 2010 12:53 PM EST reply actions  

That Kiffin is a real p**** eh?

/handegg talk

Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word

by guayzimi on Jan 13, 2010 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

you have no clue

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 13, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok more handegg...

I get the sense UT thinks of itself as not the kind of place a guy uses and throws away… The thing is USC is THE ULTIMATE in college jobs. First, it’s LA, second there is no other football team there. Don’t feel too bad…

Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word

by guayzimi on Jan 13, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

its the ancillary stuff that is killing me

he’s a scumbag, but this was his “dream job” or whatever, so i can give him a pass(though it is shitty to build up morale for a year, then just leave)

what i can’t give him a pass for is they way he is dealing with our recruits…we had 8 players who enrolled early(this semester) and he and orgeron called everyone of them last night and told them not to go to class today, that there were scholarships waiting for them at USC…bushleague

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 13, 2010 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Brutal...

Big-time college sports is an absolutely cutthroat business.

Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word

by guayzimi on Jan 13, 2010 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

ah the rock

college kids are really innovative at times

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 13, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

there is some acrostic action there

the lame attempt at a hand doesn’t speak well to their biology or art programs

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 13, 2010 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Makes me wonder how the students feel about

Tyler Smith, everyone’s fun-loving, drug dealing, gun toting college basketball player. To think, he transferred to UT because of “family concerns”.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, actually, his story is kind of sad

He wanted to go to UT originally, but his father hated Pearl. So he went to the basketball that is Iowa. His father then got cancer, and gave his blessing for Tyler to transfer to Tennessee.

In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his recievers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)

by Taskmaster on Jan 13, 2010 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

And WHY did his dad not like Bruce Pearl?

Because Bruce is about as clean a college coach as you’re going to find, and blew whistles on recruiting violations back in the 1980’s. That’s why it took him forever to get a big time head coaching job.

Sad story, yes, however, from what I know of Tyler Smith, he’s been a troublemaker just about everywhere he’s been.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Blowing whistles on "alleged" recruiting violations

generally isn’t appreciated by rival schools. You’d better be right about it if you blow the whistle, and it better be egregious, not a bunch of ticky-tack stuff. There’s a reason why Bruce Pearl and Roy Williams are pariahs in the coaching community.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 13, 2010 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Bruce Pearl and Ryan Braun run in similar circles

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Jan 13, 2010 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Took me a second.

But I got it.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Jan 13, 2010 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

for shame f,, for shame

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 7:04 PM EST up reply actions  

You think I don't hear this phrase all the time?

As if.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Jan 13, 2010 7:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Now I worry about you!

What kind of sick, abbreviating circles do you run with?!?

by Mister Eff on Jan 13, 2010 7:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Boys...

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Jan 13, 2010 7:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Can you blame him?

If you didn’t have a father, who the hell is there to guide you. I mean, Pearl is a good guy, but he has his own family to worry about, plus you wouldn’t have much of a connection to him. Can’t blame him for how he turned out.

In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his recievers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)

by Taskmaster on Jan 13, 2010 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm sorry...

But you are clueless on this.

Tyler was committed to Buzz Peterson, with whom Billy had a relationship. Buzz was fired and Billy was upset about it. He had no relationship with Bruce and didn’t want Tyler playing for someone he knew nothing about and subsequently did not trust. It had absolutely zero to do with Bruce Pearl turning in Illinois in 1989. Nothing. No one but Illinois cares about that crap anymore.

Tyler still wanted to go to Tennessee, Billy did not want him there. Bruce visited Tyler at school, it upset Billy, and they asked out of the LOI. Bruce refused, which further harbored the ill will from Billy. Tyler went to prep school and then to Iowa before Billy was diagnosed with cancer. Tyler came back to Tennessee (with his Billy’s blessing) and Billy died before Tyler played a game for Tennessee. Bruce and Billy actually built a positive relationship before his death.

And I’m not sure what “you know” of Tyler Smith, but he has in no way been a troublemaker everywhere he has been. No incidents in high school, no incidents at prep school, no incidents at Iowa, and no incidents at Tennessee prior to the arrest. He made a huge mistake and was dismissed from the program. In regards to your comments about student and fan reaction, no one protested it because it was a justifiable move. He screwed up and is gone. How all this relates to Kiffin jumping ship, I have no idea, but I just thought i should point some things out.

by LukeMP1186 on Jan 14, 2010 1:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks, I know the whole story

I don’t need to have it read back to me.

No incidents at Iowa? Sorry, it appears you’re ill informed. I’m not going to get into it here, but there were various incidents at Iowa that didn’t make the paper.

Regarding Bruce Pearl: It has everything to do with him turning in Illinois. Buzz Peterson specifically told his Billy about the violations and how Bruce wasn’t someone to be trusted. So Billy took it upon himself to guide his kid elsewhere when it was clear that he would have thrived playing in Bruce Pearl’s system. It’s a clear case of over-parenting, and it cost this kid two years of college and probably an NBA career.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 14, 2010 9:10 AM EST up reply actions  

If you knew the whole story...

You wouldn’t be making stuff up and/or posting the wildly inaccurate information you believe. Absolutely no one has ever indicated that Billy’s distrust of Bruce had to do with the Iowa/Illinois thing. No one. It was 100% about Billy having a very strong relationship with Buzz, Buzz being fired, UT not hiring some nobody Billy wanted them to hire, and Billy getting upset. Bruce Pearl never had a chance with Tyler the first go around.

As for the incidents that “didn’t make the papers”, well, that’s a nice way of saying “I don’t have direct knowledge of ANYTHING, but I slandered the kid and I’m sticking by it with vague references.” I could sit here all day and tell you Tyler spent his free time in Knoxville reading to sick children, only it didn’t make the papers. Gee, what a nice guy. And although that isn’t true, you couldn’t prove it. See how easy it is? No one is classifying Tyler as an angel, but if he had been a “troublemaker” his whole life, it sure stands to reason he would have ended up with legal trouble way before now.

And let’s be honest, now that I see you are an Iowa State fan and maybe even an alum, shouldn’t we take your version of events regarding a former Iowa assistant coach and a former Iowa basketball player with a grain of salt?

by LukeMP1186 on Jan 14, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

"Mommy, is that a rocket ship?"

In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his recievers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)

by Taskmaster on Jan 13, 2010 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

if this is true
orgeron called everyone of them last night and told them not to go to class today, that there were scholarships waiting for them at USC

he is truly a pile of shit

by _pistol_ on Jan 13, 2010 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

wait - i just read the rules

i’ll rephrase…
Kiffin’s actions are truly shitty.

by _pistol_ on Jan 13, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Not only that...

he changed his baby boy’s name from “Knox” to “Angel”

What a clown…

Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word

by guayzimi on Jan 13, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions  

is this true

i was wondering if he was gonna do that

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 13, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

j/k...

but i wouldn’t put it past him

Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word

by guayzimi on Jan 13, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

according to recruits

and some UT officials…its very very true

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 13, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

He copped to it...

It’s extremely low but such is the recruiting game.

But it’s all moot because the early enrollees were stuck at Tennessee once it hit 12:01 AM on the first day of class.

So they can either transfer and sit out a year, or ask to be released (would not happen).

by LukeMP1186 on Jan 14, 2010 3:02 AM EST up reply actions  

it's USC. it's not like he left for bama or flordia

they’ll never meet each other & he never really wanted to be there in the first place. he was just there till something on the west side came up so he jumped.

and the thing about the kids, well you shouldn’t be surprised. welcome to college handegg in the 21st century. of course he’s going to try & take some of them with him. half of USC recruits aren’t coming there since Pete left so he has to try & do something so close to signing day. is it dirty? no, but it’s how the game is played.

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

That's awful.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Jan 13, 2010 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

This is the general feeling of everyone...

The thing with offering the early enrollees is as classless as classless gets, but that’s not why people are upset. You are correct in that we do not think of ourselves as a stepping stone job, and most rational college football fans would agree. Snake or not, I believe Kiffin when he says he would not have left for any other job but USC. We all knew he wanted that job ultimately, but no one knew it would come open this soon or that he would be a serious candidate this soon. It was awful, awful timing.

People are upset because he was building something and it was readily apparent. The difference in coaching was obvious, and the recruiting of that staff was lights out. We were on the way back to competing for SEC and national titles in a hurry. But just like that, he’s gone to LA and we’re probably going to be left with a decimated recruiting class. It already puts you behind with 2011 kids, so you’re looking at 2012 before a new staff can really get an even playing field on a recruiting class. Not to mention a new staff will be hard pressed to match the recruiting ability of his staff.

So what all that means is that we won’t be seriously competitive again until probably 2014 or so in a best case scenario. That’s compared to the previous target of 2011, which was the first year we all expected to really compete for an SEC title again. So he effectively set us back further than where we were before he arrived, all because of the timing.

Lane didn’t care about Tennessee, and that’s fine, no one cared as long as we got results. But his “dream job” became available before anyone ever imagined, and he dropped us like a bad habit. He’s not a very good human being, he’s a douchebag, but he’s a very good coach and an unbelievable recruiter. We had a taste of what was to come and he yanked it away. People are pissed. That’s pretty much the gist of it. I would still take him back in a heartbeat.

by LukeMP1186 on Jan 14, 2010 1:36 AM EST up reply actions  

MAKE IT GREEN

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

IT IS SO

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Hilarious.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Jan 13, 2010 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Good NRI

Too bad the Braves already picked up Hinske. Lefty OF with a little pop who can marginally play 3B would’ve been a good bench move.

Guys like Bradley are exactly why we can't have a pumpkin patch anymore.

by liam on Jan 13, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah

Hinske made a boatload of sense for us, unfortunately.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 13, 2010 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Can Jones play CF?

If not, I’m not sure what the attraction is. Because he’s lefthanded?

Think; It's not illegal yet.

by azruavatar on Jan 13, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Looks like

he hasn’t played any CF since 2006, and not much then.

Jon Jay’s a likelier success story.

Guys like Bradley are exactly why we can't have a pumpkin patch anymore.

by liam on Jan 13, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

they should pick him up on a minor league deal and keep him on the memphis roster this season.

The guy has got more upside than any of the OF on the AAA roster. If the guy can get his bat going, he could play a big role for us in future seasons or we could just trade him. The guy was once a highly touted prospect.

by stxcardsfan on Jan 13, 2010 6:40 PM EST up reply actions  

he was the 70th rated prospect in america in 2006

that has to count for something, right?

I just was thinking NRI would be good…i he sucks we cut him loose, but maybe he just needed a change of scenery

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 13, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Ah, the Astros

Such a worthy foe
a few seasons ago.

And that’s about all the poetry I have in me. I will be signing autographs later.

But seriously, Houston is a rather poorly run organization. I don’t mind that they are fairly aggressive every off season and are always adding several pieces and making a few trades and all of that stuff… it’s just that their FO clearly has no clue how to evaluate or how to price players. I mean, Brandon Lyon? Really? Moves like these scream “We have no creativity in our FO!” I guess Lyon’s 54 career saves scream out “Experienced closer.” I guess they have Lindstrom too, who has a big fastball that hasn’t translated into exciting results. And Feliz? The guy can pick it, sure, but he cannot hit. He’s a fine player if you’re surrounding him with guys like Chase Utley and Ryan Howard and Jayson Werth and miracle-season Ibanez, but Houston has Berkman and then a couple of solid guys (Lee and Pence) and… ???? They’re basically tossing a pittance into an already lost cause at third.

Really, how do these moves accomplish anything other than filling out their roster? I don’t remember who said it and don’t have time to go look it up, but in baseball “You’re either getting better or you’re getting worse.” I’m not sure these moves make them worse, but they are certainly doing nothing to suggest they’re heading in the right direction either.

VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 13, 2010 1:09 PM EST reply actions  

is forever just another word?

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Astros' Payroll

Houston’s payroll was a little over $103MM last season, which in the top 10, yet they won 74 games and should have won less. I find this fact amazing. C

arlos Lee made $19MM in 2009 for the Astros last season. This reflects the risk for mid-major market clubs (I know how big Houston’s market actually is) when handing out big-money, long-term deals to guys who don’t deserve it. Lee’s contract is terrible. It’s a horrible allocation of resources. He simply doesn’t do anything well enough to warrant a $19MM salary and there was no reason to suspect he would.

Puma made $14.5MM and Oswalt made $15MM. This also shows how difficult it is for a club like the Cardinals or Astros to win with non-great performances from their cornerstone players who are being paid significant salaries. When Berkman’s production goes down (his WAR fell by half from ’08 to ’09), they struggle mightily. Likewise, when Oswalt has a good-but-not-outstanding year, they are unable to make a playoff run.

This reality supports developing a strong farm system all the more. For starters, you are less likely to waste your money on Carlos Lee types by signing them for way more than they are worth. You can also fill in for injured players more easily, allowing you to keep your head above water until Puma is healthy, for example.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 13, 2010 1:33 PM EST reply actions  

Fixed!
This also shows how difficult it is for a club like the Cardinals or Astros to win with non-great performances from their cornerstone players who are being paid significant salaries and you trade all the value in your farm system when overpaying for a 33 (or is it 36?) year old Miguel Tejada and you piss away good money by signing a horrible relief pitcher to a $15M contract

I felt like that was pertinent information on the subject

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2010 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Even more fixed!
This also shows how difficult it is for a club like the Cardinals or Astros to win with non-great performances from their cornerstone players who are being paid significant salaries and you trade all the value in your farm system when overpaying for a 33 (or is it 36?) year old Miguel Tejada and you piss away good money by signing a horrible relief pitcher to a $15M contract and then with these mistakes refuse to admit that your team is godawful and don’t trade them for decent farm system material.

In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his recievers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)

by Taskmaster on Jan 13, 2010 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Y'know. . .

I’m not as down on Carlos Lee as you are, but I think he’s a pretty good comp for Matt Holliday, as I think about it.

They both signed:

- at similar points in their careers (Lee prior to his Age 31 season, Holliday prior to his Age 30 season, BTW, Happy B-Day, Lego, on Friday)

- after impressive runs of offensive-production, that were based more on batting average than you would ideally like to see (as compared to OBP/wlak rate)

- to play LF and be the second-best hitter on a team with a first-order stud in the lineup (i.e. Berkman, Pujols)

- at a time with both were plus baserunners (seriously, look at Lee’s baserunning numbers pre-Astros for his career he is 115/41 SB/CS)

- and to similar contracts (Lee: 6 years, $100M; Holliday: 7 years, $120M)

Now, it’s not a perfect comparison. Holliday was always a better player than Lee, both offensively (even after adjusting for home parks) and defensively (Lee was further down the inevitable defensive slide when the ‘Stros signed him; his defensive metrics have actually improved substantially since joining the ’Stros, probably thanks to having to cover less ground). Lee’s contract was structured more poorly than Lego’s; as bgh has noted, backloading probably wasn’t a great idea from a tracking value perspective. Lee’s contract was also signed at a time when player value was inflated as compared to now. Lee was also, to put it politely, a bit more pear-shaped than Holliday at the time, although they are both big guys.

All that being said, the comparison makes me feel a bit better about Holliday in the birds on the bat. Lee played 160 games last season while battling through hammy problems and still managed to put up a 300/343/489 line, good for a 118 OPS+ (remember that’s park-adjusted), and a 355 wOBA. I’d take that in year 4 of Holliday’s contract and feel pretty good about it, particularly if he does it while playing hurt like Lee did last season, and that’s without even adjusting for Holliday starting from a bigger “base” of performance than Lee from which to regress/degrade.
-

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 13, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

you can say that again

plus he’s not one of America’s fattest fatties

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Word on the street is

Holliday is way more balanced than Lee.

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

dude does a mean downward facing dog.

if you don't know what is wrong with me, then you don't know what you've missed. - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 13, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

lego yoga!

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 13, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

it's all on the internet.

some of it isn’t even porn.

if you don't know what is wrong with me, then you don't know what you've missed. - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 13, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

from the A's days

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 13, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't get this at first...

Something to be ashamed of or proud of? Or neither? I’m not sure.

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

115/41 isn't a good SB%

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Jan 13, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

73% isn't bad. . .

and it’s certainly better than you would expect for a fat man.

Besides, it was better than that (75.5%) before he joined the ’Stros.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 13, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

So he was good before he signed his huge contract

and he’s been worse since that time, while not stealing hardly any bases over the last few years due to his ever ballooning weight. I don’t see how it’s rational to say that his SB’s make him more worth his contract, when stealing at less than an 80% rate hurts your team and you haven’t stolen more than 10 bases since signing your big fat contract.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Didn't say that.

I said that Lee and Holliday’s situations were very similar when they signed their contract in several respects, including being good basreunners. And as a bad-case scenario for Holliday’s contract, I’d take Carlos Lee’s production in year 4, that’s all.

Also, I thought that 72% was the break-even for base-stealing?

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 13, 2010 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

What's his baserunning valued at otherwise?

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Jan 13, 2010 7:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Nevermind:

Below average, but could have been worse I guess.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Jan 13, 2010 7:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Holliday is a far better on-base guy than Lee

Hollidays Walk Rates: 7.2, 7.0, 7.2, 7.2, 9.0, 12.1, 11.0 — Career: 9.1

Lee’s Walk Rates: 2.6, 6.2, 6.4, 13.2, 5.6, 8.4, 8.4, 8.5, 7.8, 7.8, 6.3 — Career: 7.4

Not surprisingly, their career OBPs are not even in the same standard deviation. Holliday’s is .387; Lee’s is .344. Sure, Holliday’s career BA is .318, 17 points higher than Lee’s .291. That higher BA still isn’t enough to bring Holliday’s OBP ISO of 69 down to Lee’s 53. If I were spending $100MM, I’d much, much rather spend it on Holliday than Lee.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 13, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure I'd take a .355 wOBA in year 4 of Holliday's contract

the ZiPS projections I linked to in a fanshot a while back actually project him to be nearly that good in the last couple of years of the deal.

I think I’d hope for a LITTLE more.

I think the thing with Lee is, he was never that great a hitter, and he has never walked much. Other than his slightly weird 2002 season where he randomly had a 5% higher walkrate than any other year, he generally hovered around a 6-8% walkrate in Chicago. Also, despite hitting a fair number of HR, he never had the slugging % that Holliday consistently puts up because Holliday’s a better contact hitter and hits more doubles.

They’re not terrible comps, but really, through age 29, Carlos Lee had never put up close to a .400 wOBA year. His best year had been a .379 with the WhiteSox (also in a hitter’s park), and that was quite an outlier, his average being around .360. According to UZR, in the four years up to that point that it counts, he probably wasn’t as good in the field, either. He never approached Holliday on WAR, and was actually below average for a couple of those years.

Holliday, through age 29, with the exception of his first year in the league, has never had a wOBA below .375 and has averaged .400. His OBP beats Lee, and he’s been solidly better as a slugger too, mainly due to his greater contact rate. His BB% has also seen an increase in the last 2 years as he’s become more patient, although his HR rate (and SLG%) has fallen away a bit. He’s a better hitter through age 29, and, to be honest, it’s not even close.

Weirdly, Lee’s not actually been as bad as he might’ve been – he’s actually improved as a hitter since moving to the ‘stros, even though his defence has been solidly bad. He’s been a 3-win player pretty solidly, which is arguably more than they could’ve expected so far for a guy with that type of body and that type of non-elite bat.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 14, 2010 7:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Sure,

the comparison breaks down if you look too closely. Although wOBA tends to make the difference look bigger than it is, since it is not park-adjusted.

I was looking at Lee’s performance kind of as a worst-case scenario for Holliday given the similarity of the contracts. It makes me sleep better at night.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 14, 2010 9:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Although wOBA tends to make the difference look bigger than it is, since it is not park-adjusted.

Agreed, although Lee has spent basically 90% of his career in good-to-great hitters’ parks.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 15, 2010 7:39 AM EST up reply actions  

i know, where is our melancholy barron?

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

he's putting himself in position, just in case,

to be the one who can say, “i told you so…”

R.P.O.F.Y.M.

by BVHeck on Jan 14, 2010 12:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Astros won't be much of a factor

unless Berkman has an amazing season, Oswalt stays healthy and returns to form, Carlos Lee picks up the slack, Hunter Pence goes on a tear, etc etc. so many ifs, and they still don’t have a very good bullpen at that. would take the cubs and cards to underperform and the reds to continue to be the reds of recent memory.

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 13, 2010 1:37 PM EST reply actions  

this is awesome news, but i still don't want to give htown our pick

there has to be a way around this

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

wooooot!

Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word

by guayzimi on Jan 13, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

i'd rather have a first round pick

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 13, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought the Astros...

didn’t offer arb…. Cancel that woot. It would be nice to put Franklin back in the 8th inning though

Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word

by guayzimi on Jan 13, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Me, too.

We’re certain that Valverde was offered arbitration?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 13, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

he was recently featured in an article as the only remaining Type A who would cost a pick.

if you don't know what is wrong with me, then you don't know what you've missed. - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 13, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Then,

why on earth are we sacrificing our first-round draft pick for him when we could make a run at the other pitchers we’ve discussed. It makes absolutely no sense, especially in the context of the Holliday deal, the forthcoming Pujols megadeal, and the raiding of the farm to trade for DeRosa and Holliday as well as the graduations of many other prospects to the big-league roster.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 13, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

preach it!

if you don't know what is wrong with me, then you don't know what you've missed. - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 13, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

It is only a #25 pick...

we’ve got two other supplementals in the 30s, and an upgrade from Franklin to Valverde is meaningful. I bet he signs for one year, $5 million and a guarantee not to offer arbitration. This could be ok.

Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word

by guayzimi on Jan 13, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Price.

I don’t disagree that Valverde would be an upgrade. However, I think there are other upgrades to be had that do not cost us the no. 25 pick. Why reduce your draft pick total in slots 25-50 by one-third if a comparable upgrade can be had without doing so (and probably at a similar dollar amount)?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 13, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

SMOLTZ

You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?

by jd is legend on Jan 13, 2010 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

YES

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

$5M would get us most of the way to a smoltz signing.

and if we really need another reliever, we could get cheaper non-type A relievers whose value would be about one or two runs less than valverde over the whole year. i’m not spending a pick to get two runs.

if you don't know what is wrong with me, then you don't know what you've missed. - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 13, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd definitely prefer Smoltz...

but it seems like something has gone wrong there. Why hasn’t that happened yet?

Or, sign Orlando Hudson, trade Skip for a reliever, and get an upgrade at two positions.

Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word

by guayzimi on Jan 13, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

my surmise is that smoltz would have understood he had to wait for holliday.

being second fiddle to penny may rankle a bit and may eliminate whatever hometown preference we might have gotten.

smoltz is probably third in line of the remaining starters after pineiro and sheets. i bet his market is about 2 weeks out. say the dodgers lose out on pineiro — they could jack up smoltz’s price. if i were him, i wouldn’t settle for anything less than penny money right now.

if you don't know what is wrong with me, then you don't know what you've missed. - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 13, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure

O-Dog is an upgrade at 2B over Skip.

They look like pretty similar players if you ask me. I know Skip has been protected from lefties some, but if you add in the split for his RHH substitute, be it Lugo, or Floppy, or Tyler Greene, my guess is that you come up with a comparable wOBA.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2010 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Isn't Hudson *way* better defensively?

Or, would it be more accurate for me to write, “Hudson used to be way better defensively than Skip?”

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 13, 2010 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

The second one

Hudson was below average in 150 games there last year: -4 by UZR

Skippy was -8 overall, but he clearly was better at the end of the year than he was at the beginning, so there’s no reason he couldn’t be that good in 2010.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2010 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd rather sign Belli.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 13, 2010 8:18 PM EST up reply actions  

*for nothing other than nostalgia,

and the ability to once again use the adjective/nickname “Fatletic” on a regular basis.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 13, 2010 8:19 PM EST up reply actions  

we need that picture

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 13, 2010 8:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Thug 4 Life

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 8:46 PM EST up reply actions  

How can I own this photo which commemorates...

…one of the key plays from our magical 2006 title run?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 13, 2010 9:32 PM EST up reply actions  

right click, save image...

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 13, 2010 9:53 PM EST up reply actions  

use it's wisely bgh

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 11:09 PM EST up reply actions  

After decimating the system last year

the Cardinals need as many high end picks as they can get.

Think; It's not illegal yet.

by azruavatar on Jan 13, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

is there anyway we can sign val & not give up the pick?

there has to be a loophole. there’s a loophole for everything

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

for chris duncan

hehe

"Chuck Norris CAN divide by zero"

by elirock83 on Jan 13, 2010 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

1. sawx sign val

2. he blows a series vs the yanks

3. traded to Cards for Fat Miles

4.????

5. Cards beat sawx for WS flags

6. Profit!!!!

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

If the Astros sign and trade him

We can trade for him. Didn’t the Twins pull off something similar to this last year?

In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his recievers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)

by Taskmaster on Jan 13, 2010 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

sign him after june

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 13, 2010 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

he'll get a deal before then though

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 7:05 PM EST up reply actions  

okay?

i was just stating that that’s the only way to sign him without giving up a pick. or being the astros. and i’d rather give up a pick than be the astros. i’d also rather just not have that 0.5-1 WAR and keep the pick

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 13, 2010 7:42 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

plus, i don’t want to watch valverde

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Jan 13, 2010 10:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I think so too,

it all depends on what he costs us, which can’t be much because nobody else seems to even be bidding for his services. If the cost of the draft pick is factored into the contract, I’m fine with it. Seems like the Cardinals do better on supplemental, 2nd, and 3rd round picks lately than they do on first rounders.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I doubt Valverde gets $5M

giving up the draft pick would keep most suitors away, and since the Cards have a couple of other picks in the same territory, they would be the perfect candidate to buy low, IMHO.

Sounds like low-hanging fruit to me.

[ducks]

A pick in that neighborhood is only “worth” around $2-$3M anyway, if memory serves, isn’t it?

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 13, 2010 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

shelby miller would like a word with you

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 13, 2010 6:14 PM EST up reply actions  

He's done nothing at the pro level yet. Nothing

Obviously he has a high ceiling, but I’m not putting the cart before the horse here.

Here are the Cardinals’ first round picks this decade:

Miller, Wallace, Kozma, Ottavino, Rasmus, Tyler Greene, Chris Lambert, Daric Barton, Justin Pope, Shaun Boyd, Blake Williams.

Here are the supplemental and 2nd round picks:

Supplemental: Lance Lynn, Clay Mortenson, Chris Perez, Mark McCormick, Tyler Herron.
Second Round: Robert Stock, Shane Peterson, David Kopp, Jess Todd, Thomas Furnish, John Jay, Mark Hamilton, Josh Wilson, Nick Webber, Mike Ferris, Stuart Pomeranz, Danny Haren, Chris Narveson.

That’s a LOT of value in the supplemental and second rounds, with the best player from this decade coming in the second (Haren). You could make the case that there are as many total busts in the first round (Lambert, Pope, Boyd, Williams) than there are in the second round (Furnish, Wilson, Webber, Ferris, Pomeranz), when they had more picks.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2010 9:36 PM EST up reply actions  

most of what you're talking about

are jocketty-era moves. wallace and miller are two pretty solid pick ups

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 13, 2010 9:54 PM EST up reply actions  

And Kozma and Ottovino

were bad drafts.

Keep in mind that Mozeliak was in charge of the farm system and draft prep for that last 3-4 years of he Jocketty era, so he’s not blameless in some of these picks either.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 14, 2010 9:13 AM EST up reply actions  

so?

are you actually claiming that this is predictive that our second and below round picks are going to be better than our first round picks?

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 14, 2010 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

I think there's a compelling argument that Ottavino

was a fine draft. He’s got live stuff and a good repertoire. He just never has learned the control that the Cardinals were hoping for.

Now Kozma was a disaster from the get go. . .

Think; It's not illegal yet.

by azruavatar on Jan 14, 2010 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah

and he’s still young enough to get better (indeed, for me, there were some very promising signs last year in the 2nd half), or to turn into a competent set-up guy or something. I’d say he’s probably right around the average in terms of what you’d expect from a 20-something draft pick.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 15, 2010 7:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Anyway

My point was that we’ve been really good at finding value in the supplemental and second rounds here, and if Piniero signs elsewhere we’d have 2 supplemental picks and a second rounder.

I think it would be ok, in this scenario, to sign Valverde if he doesn’t eat up all of our remaining budget. One win better than Franklin? Talk about cherry-picking some stats. If you think that Franklin is capable of putting up a season as good as last year’s again, you’re nuts. Dude had an ERA below 1.00 at the All Star break — I don’t see that happening again. Valverde strikes out 10 guys per 9, walks about as many as Franklin does, and doesn’t blow very many saves (fewer than 10% of his save opportunities career). He’s a very good closer.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 14, 2010 9:16 AM EST up reply actions  

how am i cherry picking stats?

i used the most commonly accepted metric around here for total value. franklin’s average season WAR is right around replacement level. the last few seasons, valverde has average less than 1 WAR. closers are too overvalued. i’ll be damned if i’m gonna give up a first round pick and 5-7MM for 1 WAR and a maximum of 5 saves difference.

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 14, 2010 11:34 AM EST up reply actions  

WAR

does a really shitty job of grading closers because it doesn’t have leverage index to value their innings pitched or the an adjustment based on hitters faced.

Mariano Rivera has the best WAR of any reliever last year….2 WAR. Two. I’m sorry, but I think Rivera is worth much more than 2 wins to the Yankees because of when he pitches and who he pitches to.

WXRL isn’t perfect, but it manages to value relievers better than WAR does. Unfortunately, I can’t find the WXRL figures for this year and I don’t have a subscription to BP. If you do, you can look it up, but I’ll bet that Valverde is at the top of the second tier of closers over the last 3 seasons in WXRL, and is light years better than any guy in the Cardinal bullpen over that span. I’d also wager that he was better than Franklin even LAST season, when Franklin had a career year.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 14, 2010 12:18 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

depends if you buy into LI

i’m not sure i do. and i don’t know why relievers should be graded particularly different than other relievers/players. there’s pretty good evidence to suggest that the concept of a closer is bullshit anyway. if you put a league average relieve in the ninth inning how much worse is his save percentage gonna be than rivera’s? not much, i would wager. i think 2 WAR seems reasonable considering the amount of innings he gets

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 14, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

if you put a league average relieve in the ninth inning how much worse is his save percentage gonna be than rivera’s?

Kinda off-topic, but there’s probably a reasonable argument that we don’t even have one of those (except maybe from the left side).

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 15, 2010 7:43 AM EST up reply actions  

and i don’t know why relievers should be graded particularly different than other relievers/players.

Guys who throw exculsively in the 9th inning in late-and-close situations certainly should be, IMO.
1) this is the main reason; in 200 IP or whatever, your average starting pitcher is going to be throwing a LOT of innings in pretty unimportant situations. If the team’s 5 runs up, or 5 runs behind, whatever he does is pretty unimportant. A closer is always guaranteed to be pitching when his stats really matter. I suspect a typical SP throws maybe 20-30% of his innings in situations that really just don’t matter at all.

2) A closer (or other late-inning reliever), especially in the NL, typically faces significantly better hitters than a starting pitcher does. The starter gets 2-3 “free” outs per start against the opposing starting pitcher, and is unlikely to face a lot of pinch-hitters who are selected to be especially good at facing him (e.g. taking advantage of platoon splits, which generally happens in the latter innings).

3) not sure I buy into this, but I suspect most pitchers do, which is probably psychologically important: the pressure of throwing the 9th inning and being “the guy” is pretty big. Everything else being equal, I think someone who succeeds in that environment may need different psychological tools than someone who starts or throws middle relief.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 15, 2010 7:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Also

You’re not replacing Franklin, you’re replacing the worst RHP in the Cardinal bullpen, then shifting Franklin down to the setup role, and everyone else down a spot as well. By chaining, Valverde might not only be worth a half win more in that closer’s role, his presence alone might be worth a half win more in each successive bullpen spot..

You can’t just compare reliever to reliever like you do with players — you have to compare the impact of that reliever on the rest of the bullpen, because adding a great closer at the back end improves the bullpen overall via chaining. This same effect could be had by adding someone like Calero, Springer, or Dotel to a lesser extent. Calero would be my choice out of any of these guys as he likely will cost next to nothing and doesn’t require a draft pick to acquire, but it’s not like Valverde is a horrible option.

So when I say “cherry-picking” I mean it — you’re using the one stat that makes Franklin look as valuable as Valverde. Everything else is going to value Valverde higher.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 14, 2010 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

no

i’m using the only stat that kind of accurately compares their total value to the team. 19.5 k/9 over 60 innings just doesn’t add up to that much.

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 14, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

history

doesn’t have to repeat
higher represents more opportunity
no way a year of vv is worth a #25, not to mention killing off all remaining salary flexibiity

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Jan 13, 2010 10:47 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah best case scenario

is that he’s a win better than franklin? gimme a #25 overall pick

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 13, 2010 10:54 PM EST up reply actions  

why? that's a weird move, to bid on a closer, much less a type a.

if you don't know what is wrong with me, then you don't know what you've missed. - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 13, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Two Headed Closer Monster...

…once replaces the udder when they get tired/ineffective. Werks fer me.

:=8)

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Jan 13, 2010 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm so torn!

He’s a definite upgrade at closer (I’m really worried about Franklin in 2010)… but our pick!

Also, I thought we hated Tim Brown now.

by Mister Eff on Jan 13, 2010 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

seems like our money is better spent elsewhere and our pick is independently valuable.

if you don't know what is wrong with me, then you don't know what you've missed. - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 13, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

you could pick up arredondo or dotel or springer or calero for less money and no pick.

i wasn’t on board with picking up wagner, but at least he was really head and shoulders over the competition. if you’re going to blow a pick on a reliever, he’s one you’d do it for. not somebody who’s marginally better than kevin gregg (valverde’s projected RAR – 7; gregg – 4).

if you don't know what is wrong with me, then you don't know what you've missed. - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 13, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Isn't Arredondo out for the year?

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

sorry, you're right. tj surgery and out for 2010.

if you don't know what is wrong with me, then you don't know what you've missed. - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 13, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Just checking

Wanted to make sure I wasn’t crazy. Still like Kiko and Springer as options for the bullpen (mostly Kiko).

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

there is no reason why the Cards shouldn't sign SMOLTZY, Springer & Kiko

not one good reason

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Especially since they have the cheat code for unlimited money

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 4:08 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

hahaha

"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR

by IHeartBoog on Jan 13, 2010 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Hold down shift and T

When the text box appears, type DEWALLET and hit enter.

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

was that code online? i've been looking for it forever

in all 6nish, they could do that for less than $7-$8 Mil

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

not if smoltzy wants >$5m, which seems possible

I think both Springer and Calero could cost $1-3m. I’d be surprised if both cost as little as 1. Calero’s really worth at least 3, and Springer probably 2, in the current market.

If we could get Smoltz + one of them I’d be overjoyed.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 14, 2010 8:01 AM EST up reply actions  

springer is listed on baseball projection at 5 RAR.

bill james has him at 3.87 and chone at 3.98 for FIP; valverde has a projected 3.43 and 3.87 FIP by the respective projections.

if you don't know what is wrong with me, then you don't know what you've missed. - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 13, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

sorry, i gave you springers. franklin gets a projected 4.11 FIP from chone and a hideous 4.75 FIP from Bill James.

 barf.

if you don't know what is wrong with me, then you don't know what you've missed. - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 13, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Tony wouldn't use Springer to close, though.

He’s not a closer.

(Franklin wasn’t either, just go with it.)

by Mister Eff on Jan 13, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

"closer" is a bullshit concept.

the only reason valverde is a closer and kiko calero isn’t is because somebody let valverde pitch the ninth inning. that’s like saying that matt kemp isn’t a slugger because joe torre made him hit 8th.

maybe tony wouldn’t use springer that way. i don’t know. tony doesn’t have a thing to complain about right now, though. i’m really tired of the club trying to put together a team tony likes rather than the best one possible.

if you don't know what is wrong with me, then you don't know what you've missed. - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 13, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Matt Kemp is dating Rihanna

Things turned out okay for him.

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Only a wizard could pull such sorcery

You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?

by jd is legend on Jan 13, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the dodgers are keeping him, somehow.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 13, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Sign me up for wizard school, then

I hope I’m a Hufflepuff.

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

eh, she's damaged goods now. no thanks

and i’m not talking about what her assclown bf did to her so don’t get your panties in a bunch folks. take a look at her now & then go look at her when she first broke in. it’s two totally different girls

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah

she isnt a piece of meat….f’in gdm…

Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...

by nomar34 on Jan 13, 2010 4:03 PM EST up reply actions  

i didn't say she was, stop twisting my words

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

right, she's a celebrity

even less worthy of being dignified

not that i don’t treat pieces of meat well. i do

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 13, 2010 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man!

You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?

by jd is legend on Jan 13, 2010 6:20 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

8 year olds dude

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Jan 13, 2010 6:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Personally

I think she’s much more attractive now than back when she was the same old conformist pop star look. But whatever floats your boat, I guess.

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Who Dat?

Does she do something? I haven’t kept up with single-name celebrities these days…
:=8/

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Jan 13, 2010 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, it is B.S.

But, not to our manager. I’ll never forget early last year when Reyes closed a game and I went on a five-minute rant of excitement at the bar comparing TLR to Nixon and saying that, if Nixon could go to China, TLR could do away with a designated “closer.” I was very, very wrong.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 13, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Not sure if this is old news

I think a VEB’er was the person who asked this question…

* In response to a question I recently received on Twitter, the following Cardinals prospects will attend the annual Rookie Career Development Program: Bryan Anderson, Allen Craig, Jon Jay and Francisco Samuel. Thanks to friend and colleague Jonathan Mayo for the info.
I recall people here saying that this is often a sign of who the big club expects to compete for a roster spot this year. That seems doubtful with Anderson, but otherwise…verrrrry interesting.

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 2:35 PM EST reply actions  

Kudos

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Interesting

I wish he’d have talked a little more about what they discussed in the program, but interesting nonetheless.

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

he'd tell you, but they'd have to kill you

then the van drives away

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 13, 2010 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I tried to warn them, Flim

I tried to warn them.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 13, 2010 4:07 PM EST up reply actions  

ALLEN CRAIG

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 13, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

who?

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 13, 2010 4:07 PM EST up reply actions  

i weep for him every night

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Creepy...

While throwing my trash out this morning, I noticed a box in my dumpster with my wife’s maiden name on it and our old apartment address. I read the shipping zip code on it and ran that through my g-mail, and sure enough it’s the box of an old nintendo I bought on ebay in 2007.

I threw that box away when we moved into our house in May of 2008.

Which means one of my neighbors took it out of our dumpster then and is just now throwing it away again.

by Mister Eff on Jan 13, 2010 2:36 PM EST reply actions  

going green *is* creepy.

also, I take a knife to all our junk mail with addresses and names on them.
mostly for the knifework.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 13, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

So if Joel's asking price is actually in the 2-year/$15 million range

Would it make sense for us to spend our remaining budget on him? Or would that leave too many other holes?

Frankly, I wouldn’t mind having our little Cy Trio back, and with Penny and Lohse, that would be a pretty solid 1-5…Garcia would get another year to develop while also playing the part of 6th starter in the likely case that someone goes down due to injury.

Thoughts?

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 3:05 PM EST reply actions  

i'd rather spend on him than valverde

would be hard to find a better 1-5 in the league, and i also think you could get him to sign for a little less too. he said he would like to come back here and honestly if you could get 13-14 from the cards, wouldn’t your take it over 15-16 from the mets?

Actually i would rather have smoltz and a bench bat for 1 year than jo-el for 2 or 3.

"Chuck Norris CAN divide by zero"

by elirock83 on Jan 13, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

considering that we lose an arb pick if we sign joel

a 13-14 contract costs us about that same as 15-16 costs the mets

by brackenthebox on Jan 13, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Type B compensation picks are worth $2M?

I don’t think it’s that high….

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2010 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

from Erik

• Picks 1 though 5 on average gave their teams $32M of production.
• Picks 6 through 10, $22.4M
• 11-15, $17.6M
• 16-20, $18.9M
• 21-30 $6.6M

by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 13, 2010 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

So picks 30-55 (generally)

are all valued at $2M? I don’t think so.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2010 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Depends on where the picks fall,

but I could see their value being $2MM.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 13, 2010 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm gonna guess

that his pick will be worse less than $500,000 by value. It’s going to be near the back of the supplemental picks, and the value is going to fall of considerably after pick 35.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2010 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

why 35?

where did this seemingly arbitrary number come from?

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 13, 2010 6:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Because its a sandwich pick, I'd imagine.

Pinata is not rated as the top Type B, I suspect, so we wouldn’t get one of the top supplemental picks. Or, that’s how I interpreted it.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 13, 2010 9:33 PM EST up reply actions  

No

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 14, 2010 10:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Supplemental picks

are doled out by the ranking of the player in the Elias list. Pineiro won’t be the top type B, and since Type A’s also require a supplemental pick, the pick for him is going to be quite a ways down in the draft.

Also, if the 30th pick is worth $6.6M (which I’m dubious on, because there’s quite a difference in talent between 21 and 30), that means 30-35 will be worth less than that (probably $2M or so), and after that it’s going to drop off very quickly in terms of value because you’re going to see more high-upside picks of players who have injury histories and players who’ve dropped out of the first round for significant reasons. You’re going to see more busts here than you will in the top of the first round, because it’s essentially a free pick that you’re getting as compensation, without having to give up any other pick in the draft.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2010 9:47 PM EST up reply actions  

to the first paragraph,

okay?

to the rest, i don’t see any reason that quality of picks is going to decline at a suddenly much faster rate between 30 and 60 as between 1 and 30

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 13, 2010 9:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Why?

There’s a $12M dropoff between picks 19 and picks 21, so what makes you think it’s going to decline slower?

Explain yourself.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 14, 2010 9:18 AM EST up reply actions  

where did i say it would decline slower!

i said there is no reason to think there would be a rapid increase in decline of quality.

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 14, 2010 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, you did
i don’t see any reason that quality of picks is going to decline at a suddenly much faster rate between 30 and 60 as between 1 and 30

You’re either saying it declines at a lesser rate than the picks before it, or you totally misunderstood what I was saying.

I worked it out…if it declines at the same rate as the previous set of picks, my $500,000 quote is about spot on for picks from 45-50. I think it will actually decline at a faster rate overall because of the number of high-upside high school guys who have issues that knocked them out of the first round that get drafted in the 30-50 picks that are generally supplemental choices. Those players tend to burn out at a higher rate but are worth a risk at that point in the draft because they cost less to sign the later they are taken.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 14, 2010 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

are you actually reading what you're posting

that quote does not say that i think the quality of picks will decline slower. it says that i don’t think they will decline faster.

you’re falling into old habits and i don’t particularly feel like defending the strawmen you set up

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 14, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I worked it out…if it declines at the same rate as the previous set of picks, my $500,000 quote is about spot on for picks from 45-50. I think it will actually decline at a faster rate overall because of the number of high-upside high school guys who have issues that knocked them out of the first round that get drafted in the 30-50 picks that are generally supplemental choices. Those players tend to burn out at a higher rate but are worth a risk at that point in the draft because they cost less to sign the later they are taken.

and i don’t have a problem with this. $500,000 seems reasonable enough to me. know what doesn’t sound reasonable?

the value is going to fall of considerably after pick 35

the theory that the rate of decline rapidly increases after pick number 35

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 14, 2010 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

that's just a guess, though

I get the feeling that picks 30-50 actually lose their value at a slower rate than those in the top 20 or so. Again, though, that’s kind of a guess.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 14, 2010 8:42 AM EST up reply actions  

See above

It drops off $12M or so from 15-19 to 21-30. So why wouldn’t it continue to drop off on a steep curve for the reasons I voiced above?

I’d like to see an analysis of this but I can’t find one.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 14, 2010 9:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, I agree that the difference between the top 20 and the picks 20+ is steep

and for me, that’s kinda clear in the sort of players you can get – we got Wallace in the top 20, and a lot of the players in the teens are guys that were legit top-10 talents who fell that far due to signability concerns (e.g. Shelby Miller at 18). I think most of those guys are off the board in the 20s. Therefore, the big drop-off in talent occurs at that point, and then it’s on a fairly gentle downward slope from 20 onwards.

I just feel there’s a bigger difference between the types of guys who go in the teens and in the late-20s than there is in the types of guys who go in the late 20s and the late 30s.

Like I say, both sides of this argument are just opinion, in the absence of a more detailed analysis, it’d have to stay that way. I’d be interested to see a scatter plot of the WAR/value put up by each individual pick in the draft and try to draw a curve through it, see what sort of distribution best fits. I guess it’d be very noisy, though.

In any case, you argue above that the drop-off from the teens to the 20s is similar in precipitousness to the drop-off from the 20s to the 30s. Even if that is the case, the drop off from the teens to the 20s is about a 60% reduction in value. If that holds for the 20s to the 30s/40s (and I think Pinata was near the top of the pitching type Bs, so a pick at around 40-odd is probably what we’re expecting), the average value will indeed be around the $2m region, not the $500k you suggested.

For the average value in the sandwich rounds to fall to $500k, you’d have to have a MUCH greater fall-off of talent from the ~20s to the ~30s/40s than we see from the teens to the 20s. I’d struggle to think of a rational argument as to why this would happen. It really only takes one sandwich pick per year to turn into a star, or a couple of guys to become league average types, for a pick in that region to exceed $1m in average value.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 14, 2010 9:34 AM EST up reply actions  

so pics 11-15 are less valuable than pics 16-20?
this fail the smell test for anyone else?

"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~

by YesWeOquendo on Jan 13, 2010 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Could be signability/cost differentials causing that.

Anyway it’s not a very large discrepancy.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Jan 13, 2010 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

all it needs is a couple of absolute superstars to be drafted in the 16-20 range

from what I recall, this sample only takes in a couple of years of the draft. There’s going to be pretty big error bars, and it only takes a couple of outliers in the 16-20 range to really bump up the average value. If it’s a 5-year sample, that 16-20 pick range only represents 25 players.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 14, 2010 8:44 AM EST up reply actions  

ok, i know what these values represent, but

i don’t think that is the right way to look t it. it is an opportunity that may average out at $X, but there are probabilities involved that cannot be replicated and are really hard to assign hard dollar values to. if you could pay 2-3m for the opportunity to draft the 25th best amateur player, you would do it, and probably more. the dollar logic says you would have to draft 15 players to get to where chapman is today. i think that it is unlikely to require that many attempts.
ps—we’ve done some pretty poor early round drafting over the years

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Jan 13, 2010 10:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I think they are probably not adjusted for signing bonuses, however

if you’re paying 2-3m for the 25th pick and THEN also paying him $3m in signing bonuses, the amount you give up is somewhat more than just the “value” of the pick.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 14, 2010 8:46 AM EST up reply actions  

I'd take him, but that would have him earning the same as in 2009.

I know the market is different, but Joel was a far superior version of himself last season than in previous contract years. I’d be surprised if he resigned with the Cardinals for the same amount.

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Jan 13, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

i don't think jo-el is interested

has there even been confirmed dialogue between him (or his agent) and the team?

follow me on twitter @nickg105

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 13, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I remember reading that he was interested in returning to the Cardinals

But since he actually hit free agency, I haven’t heard anything about discussions between the Cards and his agent. Then again, Penny snuck up on me, so that doesn’t necessarily mean nothing is happening.

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

this is true

but as a former cardinals, it seems as if there would have been some sort of murmurings by now if he was interested in re-upping with the team.

follow me on twitter @nickg105

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 13, 2010 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Can't blame him for not wanting to be part of the re-up gang

All he wants to do is ride around shining while he can afford it

by purple_haze on Jan 13, 2010 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I just responded

very belatedly to VEP’s post the other day about the 2010 salary level, and accompanying WAR, and asked a similar question, amongst others. In short, if our 2010 salary level is at about $90m, and if management/ownership was willing to go to $110m (I remember this was the figure being mentioned earlier), why not take Joel with the $20m remaining, plus Dotel or similar person, plus LH bench guy? Or, does management figure 90 wins is enough, be efficient and economize, no need to spend more $ for above WAR guys, and pad the bottom line next year? Also, winning the central division is not winning all of the marbles, how does that factor into decisions on how much to spend, or does anyone except the fans care?

by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Jan 13, 2010 9:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the assumption is

that management ISN’T prepared to go to that payroll level. A lot of the estimates I’ve seen don’t have the Cards making a huge profit, year-on-year, so an extra $12m or so of payroll above what we paid in 2009 (especially as we only got one home playoff game to boost revenues, the absolute worst-case scenario when we made the post-season) might be a stretch.

Also, there’s the 2011 issue – if we bump payroll to $110m now, and we’re stuck with Pineiro, all our current pitchers (sans Penny) and pretty much all our position players, plus possibly a second year on Dotel, it makes it hard to afford an extra $10m per year (or whatever) to pay Pujols. I suspect any payroll increases will be pretty solidly tied to extending Albert, and personally I’ve got no problem with that.

Also, winning the central division is not winning all of the marbles, how does that factor into decisions on how much to spend, or does anyone except the fans care?

I’d imagine it probably doesn’t factor MUCH into the pre-season decisions. At best we’re maybe only a 60% shot to make the post-season next year (I imagine most estimates would be lower, actually), so 40% of the time the playoff roster doesn’t matter anyhow. Having a good bullpen/closer correlates pretty well with playoff success, so I imagine if this line of thinking enters Mo’s head, it’s maybe along the lines of “if I can add a really good closer, instead of a really good 5th starter, it’s probably more worthwhile, bearing the post-season in mind”, hence, I guess, the apparent interest in Valverde.

90 wins (or whatever we’re projected) probably isn’t enough, but it’s probably on the downslope of the curve of “how much you’re prepared to pay for a win”:

Just ignoring the x-axis scale, if this curve is equivalent (on the x-axis; horizontal) to “how many wins the team is projected to have”, and on the y-axis (vertical) to “how much is each win worth”, the absolute tip of the curve (i.e. when every win matters the most) is probably right about where your nearest rival is. That is, if we’re projected to win 85 games, and the Cubs are projected to win 85 games, every win we can gain is of an absolute maximal value. We’re probably just to the right-hand side of that (say, projected to win 90 games, with the Cubs and Brewers projected to win mid-80s) but they’re still CLOSE enough to us to make every extra win still “quite valuable”. With a projected 5-win lead, we’re only an injury (say, Carp going down for the year) away from being drawn back into the pack.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 14, 2010 8:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks

Felonius. I left the discussion last night and just saw this, which addresses the questions that I was asking, and I agree with what you are saying, particularly that the payroll may be more limited. Also, what you are saying at the end about each additional win at the margin being “quite valuable” is what I was getting at in suggesting that getting Joel for $10m or perhaps even less now, as spring training gets closer, might be well worth the additional 4.8 WAR that his 2009 season represented, although regression in 2010 is likely. However, even 3 wins above replacement would be good value for a (one year?) contract of $10m or less, if he was willing to accept it, would it not?

by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Jan 14, 2010 6:50 PM EST up reply actions  

yep, it probably would

from what I understand, though, Joel’s right on the cusp of what we can afford next year at his very cheapest, and probably beyond it otherwise. But I agree – I think he probably represents a pretty sizeable upgrade over what we’ll have going in the #5 slot.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 15, 2010 7:54 AM EST up reply actions  

While Berkman, Norris and Moehler

kicked our ass last year, they won’t do much better than last year. I imagine they’ll be in the middle or toward the bottom of the Central.

Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
SIGN FELIPE LOPEZ & JOHN SMOLTZ!

by zoomzoomj88 on Jan 13, 2010 3:19 PM EST reply actions  

P.S.

We are > 50 degrees here in KC. I’m so excited that I’m in the house typing on the $@#%ing computer.

(….)

by nota bene on Jan 13, 2010 3:30 PM EST reply actions  

60 and sunny here in San Francisco!

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

all of you can piss off

it’s fukcing freezing out here

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

WOOHOO!!!

I love the cold!
:=8D

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Jan 13, 2010 5:02 PM EST up reply actions  

70 and sunny in Phoenix!

Sorry gdm. I really like it here.

"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR

by IHeartBoog on Jan 13, 2010 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

That's where I'm going to retire to

Too many old people and hurricanes in Florida

You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?

by jd is legend on Jan 13, 2010 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

FYP
No All old people in Phoenix.

"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR

by IHeartBoog on Jan 13, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

True

I guess it doesn’t have quite the reputation Fla has. Plus, better golf courses and (as I said before) no hurricanes!

You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?

by jd is legend on Jan 13, 2010 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

its not nearly as bad as you would think.

i’ve completely adapted after less than two years.

"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR

by IHeartBoog on Jan 13, 2010 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

But I like hot weather, alot

Humid sucks, but it’s not humid in Arizona. Besides, if it’s too hot to handle, don’t go outside. As a retiree, I wouldn’t ever have to go outside on 150+ degree days.

You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?

by jd is legend on Jan 13, 2010 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

You will

when the damn neighbor kids put a flaming bag of poop on your doorstep.

by Mister Eff on Jan 13, 2010 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

It's poop again!

You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?

by jd is legend on Jan 13, 2010 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

As my friend who went to U of A said

Summer in Zona is basically like living in a blow dryer.

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey

I am here in Queen Creek, escaping the BC winter! And as confessed the other day, no spring calf! No need to stay here in the summer. Love the sports choices here. My sons were here for the holidays. Saw the Suns 3 times, and Coyotes vs. Canucks (surprisingly good hockey on the Coyotes’ part). Suns and Cards on tv. I am looking forward to picking and choosing amongst the spring training loitering opportunities, plus ASU basketball, and Central Arizona College basketball and baseball. CAC has a surprisingly national calibre program. Women’s juco basketball champs last year, and perennial baseball national juco contenders.

by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Jan 13, 2010 9:41 PM EST up reply actions  

never apologize, it's my own fault i'm in frozen hell

btw, have you ever been to los taquitos grill?

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think so

But there are 2,343,678,498,378 Mexican places in Phoenix, so you never know.

"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR

by IHeartBoog on Jan 13, 2010 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

it was on the food network so i thought it might be a popular joint

and the family who runs it are really hot women, so that’s mainly why i remembered the place

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

46 in Clemson!

How are you warmer?

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Jan 13, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

25!

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

This division has two 1/2 's

top cards, cubs, brewers
bottom reds, astros, bucs

anyone of the top 3 could win the division and it wouldn’t be a total shock.

any of the bottom 3 over .500 (well maybe the reds could) it would be a total shock.

"Chuck Norris CAN divide by zero"

by elirock83 on Jan 13, 2010 3:58 PM EST reply actions  

I disagree with this

Cincy is a very good bet to be .500 or better. They had a ton of injuries last year and finished only 6 games under .500. If they can avoid a few key injuries (Volquez, Votto, and Bruce, namely), figure out how to convince Cueto that July is really just the second April, and convince Homer Bailey that April is an early August, they’ll have a shot at 85-90 wins.

Of course, Dusty Baker is involved, so there’s a high probability that he fucks this up somehow.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2010 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

those are alot of ifs

isn’t volquez out till middle of the year with tommy john. They have a suspect bats to go with suspect pitching alot has to go right for them to be a .500 team

"Chuck Norris CAN divide by zero"

by elirock83 on Jan 13, 2010 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

A lot went wrong for them last year and they had a Pythag of 76-86

That’s only a 5 game swing, while Votto and Bruce played on 131 and 101 games respectively.

Add to that a full year of Stubbs and Dickerson, which will improve their lineup AND their outfield defense, a full year of Rolen, who is a huge upgrade defensively and offensively, and a bounce back year from Harang, they could be in the hunt.

It’s not fair to put Cincy in the same class at Pittsburgh when they are clearly more talented.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2010 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

the problem with the natti is every year you here this is the year they turn it all around

until they actually do it, i’ll always keep them down there with the pirates. they’ve always got promise & a bunch of what if’s. and there’s always the Dusty Baker factor. you can’t count them to do anything till they actually do it

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

McCutchen

is the only guy I’d want to replace someone on my team if I’m the Reds. Maybe Ronny Cedeno, since they are lacking any kind of talent at SS.

Garret Jones over Votto? Hell no.

Cincy is heads and shoulders better than PIttsburgh in terms of talent alone, and their Pythag was NINE games better than the Pirates. I mean, seriously, they aren’t even in the same class.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2010 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

hey man i agree with you, i really do

but they always find a way to never put it together. maybe this really is their year. i’d like it to be if only so the national media won’t look down on the Cards for winning the weakest division in the NL

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

that's exactly my feelings

i keep here in this if the reds get it together blah balh. next year with a healthy volquez and harang and arroyo gone they’ll have some cash and be able to get some better end of rotation pitching

"Chuck Norris CAN divide by zero"

by elirock83 on Jan 13, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Their lineup looks pretty good...

Stubbs CF/LF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
Bruce RF
Rolen 3B
Dickerson LF/CF
Hanigan C
Replacement Ray SS
P

Harang
Arroyo
Cueto
Bailey
Volquez/Owings/Chapman?

Plus they have a pretty decent bullpen as well.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2010 4:07 PM EST up reply actions  

They'd better have a good bullpen

If you drop $12 million a year on Coco Cordero and then field a shitty bullpen, you end up looking like a big dummy.

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Masset, Herrerra, Rhodes, and Ramirez

ahead of Cordero is pretty good. Their bullpen is probably better than ours and might be the best in the division.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Nick Masset is really under-rated.

one of the better set-up guys that nobody’s heard of.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 14, 2010 9:02 AM EST up reply actions  

see that just seals it*

*sarcasm

In honesty they have enough bats to make up for that poor pitching staff. I didn’t say they would win the division, and i don’t even think they’ll be in the running for the wild card, but they could suprise. I won’t sleep on them.

"Chuck Norris CAN divide by zero"

by elirock83 on Jan 13, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

well

i have to say this years staff will be better than last years, wolf has to help, and hawkins will help in the bull pen.

"Chuck Norris CAN divide by zero"

by elirock83 on Jan 13, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Hawkins in 2009

2.13 ERA
3.80 xFIP
3.97 FIP
5.25 tRA

Just sayin’.

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Touché!

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 13, 2010 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

yes, but he's still a hell of a lot better than Seth McClung

I agree that Hawkins wasn’t a very good signing, but he’ll probably add 0.5-1 win over what they were trotting out last year in the pen. I think it’s better than the Lyon/Houston signing.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 14, 2010 9:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Where?

Dammit, I’ve been searching for Mark Mulder news everywhere and can’t find a word.

/sarcasm

by SouthsideCardsFan on Jan 13, 2010 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Link?

Don’t make me use Google…

Okay I caved, here’s the link.

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Well I can't link to all of those

I AM ONLY ONE MAN

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

but you've got all that good mojo

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

false.

what about this?
 
if you link there, why would you need to link elsewhere.

if you don't know what is wrong with me, then you don't know what you've missed. - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 13, 2010 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

What?

Marcel lost all credibility with me. How could you project Pujols to have a wOBA in the .420s? Okay, so maybe it was .414 back in aught-seven, but that was the Forgotten Aught, so it doesn’t really count.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 13, 2010 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Marcels typically under-shoot everything, offense-wise

I don’t think it’s a very good projection, but it’s better as a comparative system, IMO. Maybe the very simple way it’s applied and regressed doesn’t deal very well with huge outliers either (and AP is the definition of an outlier…).

I actually wonder if the .394 wOBA projection isn’t a bit bullish on Holliday, OTOH. Marcels aren’t park adjusted in any way, though, I believe. Still, he’s projected to be the 5th best hitter in baseball, behind Albert, Prince, Hanley and A-Rod. Pretty cool.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 14, 2010 9:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Not really that different

Just a lot fewer PA’s. Other than that, the numbers look about the same.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2010 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

yes....

because of the lower number of PA’s. So would you rather have Matt Holliday that has 660 PA’s of .389 wOBA or the Matt Holliday that has 550 PA’s of .398 wOBA.

Sorry, I’ll take the one with 660 PA’s thanks.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2010 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Does CHONE not believe in UIBB?

Or do thy just assume Albert finally has “protection”? Or that his ~16% BB% is unsustainable?

by Mister Eff on Jan 13, 2010 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

They could look at the huge dip in walk rate during the second half of '09 and project that

to be more indicative moving forward…

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 13, 2010 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

you know what i hate about the stros?

it’s how the Cards always play down to their level & no win is ever easy. i don’t know why that is, but it’s really f’ing frustrating to watch. the stros don’t have any business whatsoever keeping up with them, yet every game is tight & in doubt. the Cards should blow them out of the water yet guys like wandy & brian f moehler shut the O down for 8 innings. ugh, somebody please make it stop already.

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 7:09 PM EST reply actions  

you can't stop it, only deal with it.

Thus the large quantities of beer and bourbon.

* is an Asshat

by RiverRat on Jan 13, 2010 7:11 PM EST up reply actions  

yeppers

a place out in seattle or portland first starting making it i think

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 7:25 PM EST up reply actions  

i must have this

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 7:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I will try this next week.

I’ll add some to the cure, and see if the flavor pics up.

* is an Asshat

by RiverRat on Jan 13, 2010 7:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I was planning on doing a dry cure,

so it wouldn’t take much bourbon, just turn the cure into a paste. It may work better in a brine. I’ll have to think about this.

* is an Asshat

by RiverRat on Jan 13, 2010 7:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't get

my bellies till next week..20 lbs…I’m going to do 4 flavors and see which I like best.

* is an Asshat

by RiverRat on Jan 13, 2010 8:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm doing cajun and pepper

and now bourbon for sure. I’ll probably do maple or honey, but it will be light. I don’t like a lot of the maple bacon and sausages out there because they are so overpowering and sweet.

* is an Asshat

by RiverRat on Jan 13, 2010 8:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Bourbon Vodka

At a bar in DSM, the bartenders and cooks mixed vodka with bacon grease and made what, I suppose, is some sort of bootleg bacon vodka. I had a shot last summer and it was absolutely the most disgusting beverage I have ever tasted. This is not to condemn back-flavored bourbon, but is meant simply as a warning.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 13, 2010 8:17 PM EST up reply actions  

*Bacon Vodka

It’s been a very long and busy day. If that makes any sense.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 13, 2010 8:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I have no idea why

but bacon flavored alcohol sounds super gross, but alcohol flavored bacon sounds amazing.

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jan 13, 2010 9:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought we were supposed to be done with bacon?

You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?

by jd is legend on Jan 14, 2010 1:25 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

damnit JD what are you doing man?!?!

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 14, 2010 2:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, please, enough bacon pseudo-"jokes"

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 14, 2010 2:50 AM EST up reply actions  

That sounds like it's more of a problem with the Cardinals than the Astros

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

i blame hal mcrae

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 7:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I blame Adam kennedy

In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his recievers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)

by Taskmaster on Jan 13, 2010 8:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I have long hated the Astros

for some reason, even the Cubbies don’t raise my ire as much as the ‘stros (although their success in 07 and 08 probably put them back on top of my shit list). There’s something about the ‘stros that’s just always made me really dislike them. At first I think it was mostly Brad Lidge, but now I can’t even say it’s any specific player, because I quite like some of them.

Minute Maid is a shit-hole, that might be part of it. Wade and McLane are complete idiots, that’s probably part of it, too. But yeah, I just can’t stand them Astros.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 14, 2010 9:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, the fact that most of the people on this blog

could do a much better job than that organization kind of says something….

Man, what I could do with Minaya’s budget…

In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his recievers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)

by Taskmaster on Jan 14, 2010 7:17 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm saving my allowance

for the next few weeks to make an offer

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Jan 13, 2010 11:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Leach says the Valverde thing is bunk
Tim Brown of Yahoo! Sports reported on his Twitter account on Wednesday that St. Louis was one of the clubs with a standing offer to Valverde and his agents at the Beverly Hills Sports Council. And at first blush, it makes some sense, because the Cards would love to add a pitcher who could complement Ryan Franklin at the back of their bullpen.

However, a Cardinals source said on Wednesday that an offer to Valverde would be “news to me,” and that there is “nothing to it.”



It would be all but impossible to sign Valverde and address any of the other needs, and starting depth appears to be a more pressing need for the Cardinals than right-handed relief.

I consider this good news. We need to stock the system with cheap talent for the next seven or eight years of Pujolliday.

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 13, 2010 7:54 PM EST reply actions  

Great news.

Thanks for passing it along. We should have known better. Mo is more intelligent than that.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jan 13, 2010 8:09 PM EST up reply actions  

uh

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 8:48 PM EST up reply actions  

OT: Check out my blog

I don’t mean to be selfish, but I would be happy if you would. I welcome all comments and constructive criticism. I know you guys know what you’re talking about. I have faith in you.

It’s just getting off the ground, and will be better in time, but here ’tis so far.

Check out my sports blog!
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
SIGN FELIPE LOPEZ & JOHN SMOLTZ!

by zoomzoomj88 on Jan 13, 2010 7:56 PM EST reply actions  

I think there's a broken link on the Lane Kiffin thing

otherwise, it’s looking nice. I like the layout.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 14, 2010 9:15 AM EST up reply actions  

beltran is out for another three months
Mets center fielder Carlos Beltran has undergone microfracture knee surgery, without permission from the club, a source tells the New York Post’s Joel Sherman

http://twitter.com/nyp_joelsherman/status/7732469105
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/01/carlos-beltran-undergoes-knee-surgery.html

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 13, 2010 10:00 PM EST reply actions  

The Mets sadden me.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Jan 13, 2010 10:09 PM EST up reply actions  

in other news

rick ankiel’s job market just widened

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 13, 2010 10:20 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Yes!

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Jan 13, 2010 10:41 PM EST up reply actions  

WOO HOO!!!!

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 11:11 PM EST up reply actions  

ugh

new york media is NOT what the natural needs…

R.P.O.F.Y.M.

by BVHeck on Jan 14, 2010 12:19 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah, but no one will be watching this year

if it’s a one-year deal, he might disappear into the rest of the general malaise.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 14, 2010 12:24 AM EST up reply actions  

new york will suck

but people will be watching. a lot of people. which is not a good environment for a fragile psyche.

R.P.O.F.Y.M.

by BVHeck on Jan 14, 2010 12:39 AM EST up reply actions  

i'd be more concerned with the availability of off-field distractions

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 14, 2010 12:49 AM EST up reply actions  

concerns

ankiel is kinda prone to them, isn’t he?
health
steroids
hitting
extra-curriculars in any city
psyche

R.P.O.F.Y.M.

by BVHeck on Jan 14, 2010 12:54 AM EST up reply actions  

That would be an epic falling apart.

The mean side of me (which, let’s be honest, is most of me) wants him to go there as retribution for giving up pitching.

Think; It's not illegal yet.

by azruavatar on Jan 14, 2010 8:19 AM EST up reply actions  

The Mets are maintaining that Carlos Beltran’s right knee surgery was done without their blessing and may pursue some form of action.
It’s possible (but unlikely) the Mets could move to void Beltran’s entire contract. More than likely, they’ll try to recoup partial monetary loss, perhaps in returned salary for the time he will be out. However, these types of suits against a player rarely succeed, never mind win. Beltran is expected to be out no less than 12 weeks with the injury

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 13, 2010 10:47 PM EST up reply actions  

if they void his deal, but bushleague

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 11:12 PM EST up reply actions  

and i hope the Cards pick him up

damn SBN

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 13, 2010 11:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd go for the throat...

if I were the Mets. 2 years and $36 million left on the contract… Looks like he’ll miss a minimum of 25% of that. He’s not going to contribute to that team again.

Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word

by guayzimi on Jan 13, 2010 11:14 PM EST up reply actions  

if he can be cut, as per the contract

I’d probably do it if I were them. A healthy beltran is worth that deal, though, so it’s probably not worth the pain/legal wrangling/bad publicity that would inevitably ensue.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 14, 2010 9:17 AM EST up reply actions  

well

he return to baseball activities in 12 weeks. that’s mid april. then he goes to extended spring and probably a MiL rehab after that. i’m guessing he’ll be back around the AS break

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 13, 2010 10:57 PM EST up reply actions  

He might be completely finished...

his knee was getting worse as the offseason progressed. That’s never a good sign. Now he’s dabbling in some kind of secret micro-fracture surgery? That’s a frequent career ender for a lot of NBA guys. Amare Stoudamire had it and came back a couple years later looking like an old man.

Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word

by guayzimi on Jan 13, 2010 11:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe...

No idea what this does to his hitting. I don’t even know which leg it is. He’s got a no-trade clause and an untradeable two years and $37 mill left on his contract. They say center can actually be easier than the corners because you rarely have to stop quickly. But the Mets said that he has osteoarthritis and he wasn’t able to do “pre-spring training condtioning.”

Six years was the hope of the herd;
Unanimous but for one who demurred;
A prescient young man;
By the name of stlfan;
He knew Scotty would have the last word

by guayzimi on Jan 13, 2010 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Amar'e is probably the one guy who was able to recover from it

The other two high profile cases, Greg Oden and Tracy McGrady, haven’t been the same players since the operation.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 14, 2010 9:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Didn't that happen to Bill Russell as well?

Can’t remember

Still, I don’t watch the NBA much (College Basketball is better imo), but I hope Oden does well. At least so the Blazers (My favorite team for a few reasons) can feel better about not grabbing Durant. They would probably be at least in the Finals by now with him.

Never liked McGrady, and he may have just sabotaged his last chance at a big deal.

In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his recievers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! "I hope I'll be safe at home!"
-George Carlin (RIP)

by Taskmaster on Jan 14, 2010 7:16 PM EST up reply actions  

So, I saw something I liked in

this article from Goold.

McGwire described how ready he is now to get to spring training and begin working with the Cardinals hitters. He has been reviewing video of some of the hitters, and he’s been preparing some ways to get his message across. During the session Wednesday with Schumaker and Ryan, he stressed what he usually stresses: Direct line to the pitch. Consistent swing mechanics (even when there is no intent to swing at, say, a ball out of the strike zone). And, especially with Ryan, keeping the forearm and bat in a right angle longer and through the ball.

I already like him more than McRae.

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Jan 13, 2010 10:57 PM EST reply actions  

Boog made me laugh.

"What’s happening?" the shortstop said. "What have you been up to?"

"Oh," McGwire said, "not much."

* is an Asshat

by RiverRat on Jan 13, 2010 11:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Boooooooooog.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 14, 2010 12:01 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm liking this decision more and more everyday.

I am so excited for this season.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Jan 13, 2010 11:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Not that I didn't like it at first.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Jan 13, 2010 11:35 PM EST up reply actions  

seriously?

flim….seriously?

follow me on twitter @nickg105

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 14, 2010 12:01 AM EST up reply actions  

He's just trying to help me out!

Thanks flim.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Jan 14, 2010 12:05 AM EST up reply actions  

AHHHHHH!

They keep not having my size!

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Jan 14, 2010 12:08 AM EST up reply actions  

And the coupon code expired on the 11th of 2009.

:(

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Jan 14, 2010 12:13 AM EST up reply actions  

I mean 2010.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Jan 14, 2010 12:14 AM EST up reply actions  

I actually appreciate this, somehow

The GF promised me when she got a job she’d get a sexy pair of heels to celebrate. I will pass this along.

I need your discipline / I need your help / I need your discipline / You know once I start I cannot stop myself...

by mojowo11 on Jan 14, 2010 12:34 AM EST up reply actions  

i hate girls in heels

and i am quite tall. Boots with heels, yeah I can go with that, but stilletto shoes I’m just not keen on at all. I think quite a few guys feel this way, actually. My GF insists on wearing them out even though they’re not practical and I don’t really like them. Drives me mad.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 14, 2010 9:19 AM EST up reply actions  

I didn't mind them when I was dating

because they were a good excuse for a footrub later on, which leads to other things, as Marcellus Wallace would tell you I’m sure….

Now that I’m married? Hate ‘em, but my wife doesn’t wear them much at all anymore, thank goodness.

Can Colby round out our new MV3?

by fourstick on Jan 14, 2010 9:26 AM EST up reply actions  

I love heels for my own sake.

I don’t really care what boys think. I figure if a boy can’t stand me wearing heels all the time we aren’t going to work and that’s his problem.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Jan 14, 2010 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

You go girl!

You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?

by jd is legend on Jan 14, 2010 10:00 AM EST up reply actions  

surprise of 2010 season.

boog slugs 15 dingers.

if you don't know what is wrong with me, then you don't know what you've missed. - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 13, 2010 11:57 PM EST up reply actions  

the shorts, haha

new gloves, too? Skip best get his routine down.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 14, 2010 12:23 AM EST up reply actions  

They all look like they're wearing swim trunks.

Can’t say that I blame them.

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Jan 14, 2010 12:26 AM EST up reply actions  

true

just not used to seeing anyone wearing anything louder than Boog’s gear

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 14, 2010 12:27 AM EST up reply actions  

you know what they say, when at the beach

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 14, 2010 12:28 AM EST up reply actions  

must be an in season thing

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 14, 2010 12:26 AM EST up reply actions  

"The other day," Schumaker said of their batting practice session Sunday, "he hit 10 out of the park in a row, I swear. He still has that power."

If that’s true, its pretty impressive… I wonder how he would do against real pitching…

by purple_haze on Jan 14, 2010 12:06 AM EST up reply actions  

I bet the movement of hair around Boog's face is a suitable offseason disguise.

Until he speaks. Or… okay, it would last about 20 seconds.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 14, 2010 12:06 AM EST up reply actions  

also, it's hilarious that I know

that’s Boog without even reading the caption

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 14, 2010 12:08 AM EST up reply actions  

who else would that be?

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 14, 2010 12:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Skip is also present

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 14, 2010 12:27 AM EST up reply actions  

he doesn't hit righty though

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 14, 2010 12:28 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah

backing up there, what I meant is you can’t see his face in that shot.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 14, 2010 12:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe it's just me and the robot

but I know me some Skip.

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Jan 14, 2010 12:37 AM EST up reply actions  

i know BOOG when i see him as well

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 14, 2010 12:39 AM EST up reply actions  

I forgot how much

Cardinal Mark McGwire meant to me until I looked at those pictures. I feel like a kid again.

Think; It's not illegal yet.

by azruavatar on Jan 14, 2010 8:24 AM EST up reply actions  

make yourself useful

I think I know what Boog’s shirt says, but I can’t be totally sure. link link

and don’t look at Skip’s shorts.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 14, 2010 12:15 AM EST up reply actions  

i'm pretty sure it says "so fresh so clean"

and jared’s shorts look like swimming trunks.

follow me on twitter @nickg105

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 14, 2010 12:20 AM EST up reply actions  

oh, jared.

that’s what I thought, thanks. nice little shot of irony, there, Boog.

I’ll still be (irrationally) mad if his pre-swing routine changes, though.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 14, 2010 12:21 AM EST up reply actions  

yes

just like i was irrationally mad about holliday changing his number.

follow me on twitter @nickg105

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 14, 2010 12:25 AM EST up reply actions  

wasn't it rational

because you’d bought a #15 jersey?

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 14, 2010 9:20 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah...

but i was irrationally actually pissed about it.

follow me on twitter @nickg105

by stlcardinalsfang on Jan 14, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

but you had a reason for it

so wouldn’t that make it “rational”? That’s what I’m saying. Nvm.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 15, 2010 7:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Who was asking when Skip had hair?

He appears to have hair now. Unless that’s someone else.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Jan 14, 2010 12:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh spants mentioned this.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Jan 14, 2010 12:24 AM EST up reply actions  

FYI the blogzone has a few more details than the article

It’s slightly more mancrushy on Boog, as is Goold’s wont.

Yeah I said it. wont.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 14, 2010 12:29 AM EST up reply actions  

'wont' should really make a comeback

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 14, 2010 12:31 AM EST up reply actions  

alack.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 14, 2010 12:49 AM EST up reply actions  

CHONE has Boog regressing on offense (by about 6 runs)

and actually improving on defense. Don’t think either of those will happen though… it seems like once he got adjusted to ML pitching he ceased to be an offensive liability and its hard to believe the defense could get any better.

by purple_haze on Jan 14, 2010 12:35 AM EST up reply actions  

I can definitely see his offense regressing

fwiw. I still think it’s on very shaky ground. He was in the zone for quite a lot of last year, but he doesn’t have great discipline, power or contact skills to fall back on if it’s not all working out. I think his D is as good as advertised, but I could see him dropping back to slightly below-average overall due to a regression with the bat. I’m not confident in another year of .350 OBP, and I’ll be pleasantly surprised if he does that again.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Jan 14, 2010 9:22 AM EST up reply actions  

OT (sorta): Don't know if anyone else has seen Christine Brennan's post about Big Mac

You can tell from the title how she feels about the subject.

Cheating Mark McGwire gets a pass from Bud Selig

Not sure I’ve ever read her stuff, so don’t know how to treat her rant. Let’s just say, she has some valid points, but I don’t wholly agree with her view.

There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 14, 2010 12:29 AM EST reply actions  

what a dumb _________

Couldn’t make it past the first sentence or two: “perpetrating a great fraud on a nation.” It’s baseball. How do people still not get this. It’s the hitting of a ball with a bat. People with oversized leather mitts catch the ball and toss it to people wearing tight-fitting clown pants sans suspenders, and its all cheered on by a probable alcoholic in a bird suit.

by mattyp on Jan 14, 2010 12:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Seriously it is a game

We don’t hold our politicians to the same fire we even hold Mark McGwire. Honestly this kind of stuff just makes me feel sick to my stomach. It just feels so fake.

by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 14, 2010 12:52 AM EST up reply actions  

While I don't agree with most of what she says

and, yes, it is just a game…however, McGwire did make a ton of money, getting paid at least partially from us, the fans. Though I was never a big Big Mac fan (having left St. Louis many, many years ago), I was certainly happy to have him on the team I’ve rooted for all my 50+ years of life. My daughter sported a McGwire jersey as a youngster, only because he was one of the few bright spots on those late 90’s teams. Once the allegations about his steroid use started to show up in the papers and on the boob- and intertubes, I was initially unbelieving, then outraged, but finally, resigned to the liklihood that he had, in fact, used them. I’ve distanced myself emotionally from Mr. Mac quite some time ago, even before his appearance before Congress. I’m glad that he’s come clean, I don’t agree with Ms. Brennan that he hemmed and hawed. But I agree that, aside from being persona non grata for the last 5 years or so, he has received what amounts to less than a slap on the wrist from the Commish. Of course, we all know what a toady Selig is, so it’s not exactly unexpected. It just makes me wonder what would have happened if someone else, say Fay Vincent Mark II, were running baseball.

There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jan 14, 2010 1:11 AM EST up reply actions  

See, for me

I was 10 years old and had few interests and cares outside of my own little world. But the excitement over Big Mac and the fact that he represented my home and city to the rest of the country was so cool.
I would watch him hit home runs on Channel 5 highlight reels and his dingers became my concept of a home run. Anything less than a McGwiresque home run was puny and cheap. I now look back and realize that those homers (like the one he socked where they put a band-aid up on the P-D ad in center at the spot it hit… HFS ©) were a treat to watch and so I revere Big Mac for the power he had. I repeat, it was a treat to watch him. And I just can’t wrap my head around these people that try to cast him down. He kicked ass. Don’t you remember? Don’t act like you weren’t there. Don’t act like your response to those home runs was to look at the guy next to you and say “Ya, it’s not that great because he’s on steroids” and not “Whoa”. Or, maybe it was. In which case my 10 year old self would feel sorry for your sad, cynical life and continue to cheer him on. In fact, my current self would, too.

R.P.O.F.Y.M.

by BVHeck on Jan 14, 2010 1:25 AM EST up reply actions  

I am assuming you're not 10 years old anymore.

I’m just figuring…. that being math, and all.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 14, 2010 1:35 AM EST up reply actions  

in reality

or at heart?

R.P.O.F.Y.M.

by BVHeck on Jan 14, 2010 1:39 AM EST up reply actions  

All I can say is nothing.

This is among the most yawn-worthy of all the articles I’ve seen on McGwire. Have you got a writing job and space to fill with vacuous, content-free moralizing? It’s your lucky day.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Jan 14, 2010 12:49 AM EST up reply actions  

all i can say is i don't give a fuck & i never did

and i don’t want to here some holier than thou assclown reporter tell me i should be outraged. mind your own damn business & stop telling everyone how to live their life already. 6ly press, STFU

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 14, 2010 2:38 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm the opposite-

I generally like to hear the takes of reporters on the situation, when they involve actual reporting or actual thought. The Outside the Lines discussion on McGwire kind of summed up my thoughts and did it without this flair of patronizing moraltude (that’s right, I invented a word to describe this condescending anti-journalism).

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Jan 14, 2010 5:41 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Y2S, can moraltude go into the glossary?

I am sure it is going to be used A LOT between now and ST

Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 14, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

the unicorns seem to prevail over it

and again, it’s based on usage, not me.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 27, 2010 4:55 AM EST up reply actions  

ugh

i just can’t stand any holier-than-thou journalist trying to turn people who have probably already made up their minds about the situation (Goose Gossage has – who the eff cares?) against one of my favorite cardinals.

R.P.O.F.Y.M.

by BVHeck on Jan 14, 2010 12:50 AM EST up reply actions  

btw

where was the link to the occasion mac did say “i never took steroids” prior to this whole thing this week?

R.P.O.F.Y.M.

by BVHeck on Jan 14, 2010 1:28 AM EST reply actions  

it was in strauss's column or one of the other 15 PD articles about him the other day

apparently his lawyers told him to say that too

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Jan 14, 2010 2:40 AM EST up reply actions  

why i was reading yahoo blog comments, i don't know but

this one made me lol:

7. Posted by J G Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:13 pm EST
LaRussa knew, LaRussa knows, LaRussa pushed steroid use, and LaRussa continues to push steroid use. The one guy who stood up to him and refused to use steroids got run out of town (Rolen).

R.P.O.F.Y.M.

by BVHeck on Jan 14, 2010 3:48 AM EST reply actions  

Nice to see

people are still posting with wreckless abandon. Makes me warm and fuzzy inside…

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Jan 14, 2010 4:25 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Yup.

That is the only logical explanation.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Jan 14, 2010 7:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Tony LaRussa has mastered the way to get around steroid testing!

Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 14, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

hot damn

i can’t find wherever that tgreene video was posted, but that dude has a canon. i wish he’d figure it out at the plate. that was boog-esque

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 14, 2010 3:37 PM EST reply actions  

wrong thread no wonder

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 14, 2010 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

tigers signed valverde

/exhale

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 14, 2010 5:05 PM EST reply actions  

man i am closing this thread

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jan 14, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

you did good

you are posting this for people that like living in the past

Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Jan 14, 2010 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I come from the future!

with a link about the Astros, as promised.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jan 27, 2010 4:56 AM EST reply actions  

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Cards versus Nats: anybody going? Because I am.
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Thank You, Cards Fans
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Poem after the Reds/Cards brawl
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The Countdown to 400: The Albert Pujols Story

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Colorado Rockies' Carlos Gonzalez, left, and Ubaldo Jimenez, right, celebrate in the dugout after Gonzalez hits his second home run of the game in the sixth inning of a baseball game against the San Francisco Giants at Coors Field in Denver on Wednesday, Aug. 4, 2010. The Rockies won 6-1. (AP Photo/Chris Schneider)

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New York Yankees pitcher CC Sabathia works in the first inning of a baseball game against the Oakland Athletics at Yankee Stadium, Thursday, Sept. 2, 2010 in New York. (AP Photo/Mark Lennihan)

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Washington Nationals' Nyjer Morgan, center, is led off the field after a brawl during the sixth inning of a baseball game against the Florida Marlins, Wednesday, Sept. 1, 2010, in Miami. (AP Photo/Wilfredo Lee) +5 updates

Following Brawl Between Nationals And Marlins, Nyjer Morgan Likely To Be Punished On Friday

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