Kyle Lohse
In yesterday's main post, chuck showed us a rather frightening table which outlined Lohse's numbers in each season in his career. Looking at that just that alone would lead you to believe that Lohse's season in 2008 was an outlier, and he should be expected to pitch like his career numbers for the rest of the season and his tenure with the Cardinals.
However, I think that table, and the subsequent conclusions that it invoked, are misleading a couple of ways:
1) You can't just discount Lohse's 2008 season. Yes, it was probably a fluke, but it also represents a significant sample of his recent pitching history, and one that we should definitely consider towards projecting future performance. Before the year, the 4 major projection systems featured on FanGraphs projected him to have an FIP ranging from 3.99 to 4.39, with a mean of 4.17. That is not as good as his 2008 season, but it is also better than his previous career numbers.
2) Lohse has clearly been affected by his injury this year. Here is an informative table:
| K/9 | BB/9 | HR/9 | FIP* | GB/FB | |
| Career | 5.63 | 2.75 | 1.15 | 4.53 | 1.11 |
| 2008 | 5.4 | 2.2 | 0.81 | 3.91 | 1.43 |
| Pre injury 2009 | 6.3 | 2.6 | 0.96 | 4.06 | 1.44 |
| Post injury 2009 | 5.1 | 3.5 | 1.42 | 5.3 | 0.99 |
*The FIP's are all normalized to a league specific factor of 3.2. On FanGraphs, they are reported based on the actual league factor, which can vary from year to year.
You can call this table cherry picking, but the trend seems pretty obvious to me. He's pitched poorly in his career, then pitched very well in 2008. Before the injury this year, he pitched basically in between his 2008 and career numbers which was what he was statistically projected to do. However, since the injury, he has pitched far worse than ever before, with all of his numbers worse than his career averages.
Of course, we all know that correlation does not equal causation, so let's take a look at his Pitch f/x data before and after the injury to see if there are any obvious signs that something is wrong. First, his stuff:
You can click on the link for a larger image.
It's clear that his stuff has gotten worse after his injury. His fastball velocity has declined by over 1 MPH, and all of his pitches are blending more.
Here is what I think this storyline shows us: Lohse had legitimately improved before or during the 08 season. His projections before the year expected him to be about halfway between his 08 season and his career numbers. During the first couple of months of the season, before his injury, he pitched almost exactly to his projections. After the injury, he lost velocity and separation on his pitches, and his performance was a lot worse than his career numbers likely due to that fact.
The question is whether or not we can expect him to regain his stuff next year. Truthfully, I have no idea; however, I believe that if he does, he can be an above average starter and may provide enough value not to make his contract an albatross.
8 recs |
46 comments
Comments
no nerve damage no nerve damage no nerve damage stop!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Sep 20, 2009 8:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ALBATROSS! GET YOUR ALBATROSS!
;=8)
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Sep 21, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Larks' tongues....
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Sep 21, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
rec
maybe i should clarify. i have no problem with looking at all his yearly stats up to and including 2008 and saying that 2008 is obviously the aberration. the stats there don’t lie. what i have a problem with is including this year’s stats and pointing out that his numbers are obviously back to their career averages. yes, his yearly stats are back to their career averages, but you’re choosing to ignore a pretty telling piece to the puzzle. i’d rather just call his ‘09 season inconclusive and see what we get out of him next year. did he just have a career year or did carpenter find that he was tipping his pitches in ’08? let’s wait and find out instead of trying to decide based off a year where he admits his nerves aren’t firing off like they’re supposed to and his arm just doesn’t feel right
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Sep 20, 2009 12:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
As an aside
I’d like to thank VEP, chuckb and everyone else who provides such terrific statistical analysis. I could never hope to execute (or, in many cases, even fully understand) analysis like this. I hope it never ends.
I never would slip you Mickey! It is merely rhinoceros horn. This makes the champagna bubble.
by The Continental on Sep 20, 2009 12:12 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
+1
this site would be pretty pointless without the statistical analysis imo.
I like the points brought up between vep’s post and chuck’s… that Lohse is not as good as what we saw last season, but like prophetjohn said just above here, Lohse has been hurt several times this season and it’s hard to infer any valuable information based on ’09
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Sep 20, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Just Usually Judge Cow Good A Player is...
…by their nifty uniform.
;=8)
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Sep 21, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's great to get an actual conversation with different but well-argued viewpoints
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Sep 20, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I missed the argument
But this is nicely laid out and pretty much confirms what I’d suspected re: the injury’s impact.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but hasn’t the team been on record saying that Lohse is suffering from persistent weakness in the forearm where he was hit? That seems ominous to me.
by mojowo11 on Sep 20, 2009 4:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps we could compare his pre- post 09 with earlier pitching data.
The thing that is very heartening about Lohse is that his injury didn’t originate in his shoulder or elbow and seems to stem from a contusion that messed up his mechanics.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Sep 20, 2009 4:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good idea
I’ll post his 2008 movement chart in the OP.
by vivaelpujols on Sep 20, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's not a pleasant F/X chart
Fastball is slower, changeup is harder, slider and curve behaving more unpredictably… none of these are what you would call “good.”
I think this is just a lost season for Lohse at this point. Hopefully he bounces back next year, or that contract will look like a truly huge mistake, as opposed to just a bad idea.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Sep 20, 2009 6:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
His chart before the injury was good
After it was bad. That was the whole point I was trying to make.
by vivaelpujols on Sep 20, 2009 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are forgiven...
At least this time.
Or something.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Sep 21, 2009 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seems to me like his control is much worse
especially on the off speed pitches, meaning guys might be sitting dead-red on the fastball. Now, do we have any Pitch F/X data from 2008? If his 2008 data looks similar to his 2009 pre-injury data then you may be on to something. Obviously we’re not going to have much data for 2006 or 2007, so it’s still tough to tell whether he’s struggling or whether he’s regressing.
FWIW, his pre-injury data just isn’t enough starts for me to make the assumption that his injury is what has accounted for all his struggles this year. I think you make a solid point here in that his injury could be the issue for him this season, and I hope that it is and he comes back like 2008 Kyle Lohse in the playoffs and/or next season.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Sep 20, 2009 9:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I have 2008 data
I’ll add some info on his stuff from that year, and pitch location for all 3 parts.
by vivaelpujols on Sep 20, 2009 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Specifically
I’d like to see his control on his change-up from last year. His control on that pitch looks horrendous post injury, and it seems like that was his go-to pitch last year when he was pitching really well. If his 2008 Pitch F/X for the change-up looks closer to what his pre-injury numbers do, I’ll be much more inclined to side with you, but I’m still holding my breath. ;-)
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Sep 20, 2009 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Changeup
Lohse threw the off-speed stuff 11% of the time last year. It had an 8.5mph separation from his fastball. It was worth on average 2.9 runs/100 pitches (which puts it in the “elite pitch” category by linear weights), which is the best “changeup score” of his career.
This season he’s thrown it over 14% of the time, but it only has a 7.6mph separation from his fastball. It’s been worth a still very good 1.97 runs/100pitches, down on last year. I imagine VEP can fill in the PitchFX stuff…
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Sep 21, 2009 4:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's really hard to tell Lohse's changeup from his fastball last year
He also appeared to throw a cutter.
by vivaelpujols on Sep 21, 2009 7:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The FB/CH blurring is really significant and troubling
He’s also lost some sharpness on his SL.
by thepainguy on Sep 21, 2009 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
do you mean this year?
there seems to be quite a large average speed differential between his CH and his FB both years, but especially so last year. I find it hard to believe a 90MPH FB and an 80MPH changeup, particularly when one moves in & stays up to RHB, whilst the other has movement away and drops…
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Sep 21, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're talking about average, and you're exaggerating the speed diffferential.
The movement between the two is quite similar (only the slowest of his changeups have that really pronounced drop). When he throws an 86 MPH pitch, is it a change that he snapped his wrist and sped his arm action up on unintentionally, or is it a fastball that he threw a bit funky and didn’t get on top of?
It’s not difficult to tell the difference between a 92 MPH fastball and an 80 MPH change, but the average isn’t calculated using just those pitches.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Sep 21, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is 9/3 last season- one of Lohse's best starts of the year.
The fastball (big blob up high) and changeup (very small scattering on the middle left) have a large and obvious speed differential, however they are in similar areas of movement. Contrast that with one of his worst starts from last season, 5/8 when he was rocked by the rockies.
And, for comparison and just because it’s so damn ugly, 8/16/09:
Yikes. That’s just horrible. Not only was his changeup just awful, but he ditched his curve (or couldn’t differentiate it from his slider) for most of this start, obviously attempting to iron out his control and get his mechanics on lockdown. The results were predictably ugly- 5 ER, 5.1IP. The little green blob in the lowest part of the center is the intentional walk. If I was in Lohse’s shoes, I’d ditch the change entirely and try to focus on getting the SL/CB over since they still seem workable.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Sep 21, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
nice.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Sep 21, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
From the looks of it he took most of this advice tonight-
threw what looked like 5 changeups (give or take a few sliders, hopefully under 10%) total (some of those were even good, but some were mediocre). Both homers were on fastballs. His strikeouts were on 1 curveball, 2 sliders, 1 changeup. Velo looked pretty good. Threw only fastballs in the first, then started mixing it up in the 2nd. Obviously the 2 HR allowed is concerning, but it’s nice to get a QS out of this guy whose season is lost.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Sep 21, 2009 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No last year
He had A LOT of blending them. I’m busy right now, but I’ll put up a chart later and you’lll see what I mean.
by vivaelpujols on Sep 21, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Agree...
…I see nothing to be gained for turning KL into the latest Cards fans whipping boy. Let’s give him a chance to put himself right before we call the sky falling, and hopefully he can right himself when we need it (in the play-offs). KL is NOT Tom Wellemyer, at least not yet.
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Sep 21, 2009 1:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
on behalf of toms everywhere, I would like to say "todd" is his name.
also, I agree. I’m sympathetic to chuckb’s “career year” argument in my head, but my gut wants to believe that he’ll show some improvement next year (barring TJ surgery). i hold out hope, but i understand other people’s reasons for pessimism.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Sep 21, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
He’s not Todd Wellemyer either…
;=8)
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Sep 21, 2009 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See? He Picked Up a W for Us!
:=8)
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Sep 22, 2009 9:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I just want to take this moment to ask
Why isn’t VEP a frontpage writer? His fanposts are great, and he does great frontpage stuff for Beyond the Boxscore. Give this man more exposure!
by alanthickefan on Sep 23, 2009 11:01 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Don't tell VEP to expose himself, please.
This is a family site.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Sep 23, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
since when?
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Sep 23, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's the joke, shhhh.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Sep 23, 2009 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Total noob question
And i suppose this is as good a place as any to ask it.
So on those graphs up there, it’s showing movement, right? With horizontal movement being on the x-axis and vertical movement being on the y-axis, okay?
How the hell are his CH and FA breaking up? Doesn’t that defy physics and or that silly little theory called gravity? My only guess is that it’s showing the diminished marginal break. Like we’re assuming that 0 would be the amount of break a pitch at that speed would have with no spin on the ball due to gravity. Then, since the fastball spins in the opposite direction of the slider and curve, it breaks less than a pitch that doesn’t spin at all. Eh?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Sep 23, 2009 11:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Such a smart boy
Clicky. For anyone else who ever wondered the same
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Sep 24, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So is your question completely answered?
We can still talk about it if you’re questioning something.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Sep 24, 2009 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nah,
that BtB article answered all my questions. Very well written
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Sep 24, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ignore the Y axis labels
Just interpret the top of graph as an area around the top of the shoulders and the bottom of the graph as the ground.
by thepainguy on Sep 24, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nah,
it’s the way i described it in my post. The coordinate (0,0) is where a pitch of its speed would end up according to physics if there were no spin on the ball. And then the plots where the pitches are show the pitches marginal break, or how much it deviates from the spinless pitch of the same speed. These graphs completely disregard location of pitches.
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Sep 24, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
What?
Movement is relative to a pitch with no spin on it. It has nothing to do with location.
by vivaelpujols on Sep 24, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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