Guest Post: Happy Birthday, Edgar Renteria

Not taking anything away from his defense, but for hitters, hitting ability plays a part in winning GGs. Why not pitching ability for pitchers?

But based around historical facts

Edmonds is one of the top offensive CF’s of all time not just “above average”

I mean that Biggio has 65.9 WAR for his career, and the comps that follow are also career values according to Chone Smith.

will get in for the same reason Red scheondienst did..for the way he played the game. the so many little things he did.

I think there’s no chance he doesn’t make it in. I also don’t think he’d be a bad vote either. I feel guilty for relying on things like WAR so much, but I think he’ll have a good argument for a HOF career by the time he’s done.

The Yankee spotlight has caused a lot of people to wither, like Knoblauch, Pavano, and even Randy Johnson have been awful in the Big Apple. Heck, even the guy this entry is actually about is a good example. Edgar went from the fairly insulated media market of St. Louis to the intensely high pressure atmosphere in Boston and was pretty awful.

So yeah, Jeter’s the type of guy who has benefitted when it comes to his all-star selections and probably his gold gloves, but he’s put up tremendous numbers at a premium position and has been just as good during the postseason.

Furthermore, just like some of the conversations here have dealt with Edmonds’ highlight reel catches and how that might help his HoF bid, Jeter has an equally impressive highlight list (which, I’ll agree is bizarre, since all the metrics show him to be a below average defensive shortstop).

So between the moments of greatness, the fact that he’ll eclipse the 3k hit mark probably sometime during the 2011 season (which will still only be his age 37 season), his success in the biggest of markets, and the fact that he’s just been crazy consistent, Jeter is a total lock.

He’s going to get to 3000 hits. He was the key cog in the Yankees late 90s dynasty. He’s in for sure.

Sometimes I think that we’ve gotten to a point where we’re so quick to point out that Jeter is overrated, that we might have started underrating him (if that makes any sense). Think of it like a pendulum. Before advanced defensive and offensive metrics came out, Jeter was a golden god. Pendulum all the way to the right. Then, we started realizing he isn’t as slick on defense as his __ gold gloves suggest, so the pendulum has swung pretty far left. It’s probably somewhere in between (all things considered).

Jeter isn’t a great defensive player, but he holds his own. In terms of consistency across the board, he is pretty much unparalled.

Jeter, through his career was always one of the top shortstops in baseball, and continues to be. Edmonds only had a small (4-5 years) stretch where he could be considered one of the best all around outfielders.

Other than his defense, nothing about Edmonds screams “hall of fame” to me.

Let’s not forget Edmonds spike in stats after joining McGwire and the Cards

Jeter’s counting stats will be off-the-charts better than Edmonds’ by the end of their careers.

Hits: Jeter leads 2,671 to 1,881
HRs: Edmonds leads 382 to 217
SBs: Jeter — 294 to 65
RBI: Edmonds — 1176 to 1047
Runs: Jeter — 1537 to 1207

The thing you have to keep in mind is: What is each player’s game? What makes them valuable?

For Edmonds it was a combination of his glove in center field and his power numbers. His glove was arguably the best in the game during his prime years (with A. Jones being the other person you could argue), and his power numbers were very good. He had a five-year run of dominance from 2000-04 which is pretty significant and could get him some chance of garnering some votes. However, his power numbers for his career don’t stack up as being “great,” especially when you consider he piled them up during the steroids era. His 382 home runs ties him for 56th all-time. He’s far lower on the RBI list all time, coming in at T-146th.

Jeter’s game is being a high-average hitter who will get on base in front of the bigger bats. He exhibits enough speed and enough power that he can take a mistake pitch out of the yard or steal a base to get into scoring position. His main stat he’ll be known for is hits. In Hits, he’s currently 64th, which seemingly would compare to Jimmy’s 56th place finish in HRs, but remember, Jeter is still an active player, and is actually looking at a group of bunched up players that he’ll likely pass either this or next season. So long as he doesn’t have some crazy decline in the next few years or have a catastrophic injury, he’ll probably get to 3,000 hits somewhere in the mid to late 2011 season, when he’ll be 37. Getting to 3,000 is still a respected number, as steroids haven’t really tainted that like it has the HR numbers, as EVERYONE that has gotten 3,000 and is eligible for the HoF is in the HoF. It would also put him at 27th place on the hits list to make it to 3k hits, and assuming he continues to play, it’s entirely reasonable that he could collect at least 3,200 hits in his career. This would place him 14th overall and ahead of fellow SS great Cal Ripken, Jr.

So Edmonds is known for power and is outside of the top 50 in the traditional power categories and outside some bizarre comeback, won’t be adding to his numbers. Jeter is known for hits in general, and will likely rank in the top 25 and possibly even top 15 when all is said and done for his particular talent.

You can make the case that Edmonds was the best center fielder in the game for a few years, and that’s his main selling point for making it into the hall of fame, but considering A-Rod’s and Tejada’s steroid use, I think it’s pretty easy to say that over the course of his overall career, Derek Jeter has been the best shortstop in baseball.

and the announcer stated that while Bagwell was obviously a lock for the HOF, Frank Thomas didn’t quite make it in his book. Of course the two players had amazingly similar careers… essentially identical in the context of baseball statistics.

I think the baseball writers want to wallow in their flawed perceptions. It makes them feel as if they have a unique perspective, whereas any monkey can crunch the numbers.

Smell test is basically, did you feel like this was a Hall of Fame caliber player when you were watching him —did he have some special quality. It doesn’t preclude someone making an arguement for a player on statistics. Jeter, passes the smell test in so many ways. He’s been such a big leader for the Yanks. Renteria doesn’t even give off a faint scent. He fades from memory. The numbers say he might get there, but at the end of day you shouldn’t get in becasue you played a long time, you should be special.

Rice ultimately made it because a lot of players who played with him put out the word that this guy was special in his prime even if the stats were a bit weak.

According to Sean Smith’s WAR database, Murphy had 6 seasons where he was worth more than 5 WAR, Edmonds had 7.

Total Career WAR:

Edmonds: 66.6
Murphy: 44.4

Murphy’s career really hit a landslide after his age 31 season.

Career OPS+:

Edmonds 132
Murphy 121

They really aren’t that different a player, and both were very, very good in their prime years. Considering that they were both sluggers who played good defense in center field, you can see why they could get lumped together.